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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
59
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Posted - 2013.05.22 17:20:00 -
[2971] - Quote
Cearain wrote: The domi didn't change the number of slots the geddon lost a slot. Perhaps I misunderstood what he meant by saying they won't change. The geddon gets 5 turrets instead of 6 on the domi. Sure the geddon can fit 5 missile launchers but with so few mids for webs they won't do much damage. Plus the domis drones will be apply much more dps than the geddon not only due to better tracking and range but due to the extra mid for a web.
The Domi didn't change the number of slots cause - it was a drone boat already. Geddon had 19 slots earlier because it was not a drone boat, but now it became one slot layout changed from 19 to 18.
18 slots if you are a drone boat - Domi; New Geddon ...
19 slots if you are not a drone boat - Old Geddon; Abaddon etc.
Cearain wrote:I thinking giving the geddon the better neut cycle time and mid slot will help it. It will be a reason not to fly a dominix instead. As for the curse I don't really see the issue. Is the scorp better than the rook at jamming? I honestly don't know. But they both have their uses. I think the same is true with the geddon and curse. Reducing the cycle times on the neuts and giving it another midslot (even if you have to take away a high slot) would change it from a not so good domi to something worth considering in its own right. Well, my concern is - because price points of said ships are not so far apart and they are doing the same thing now, but one does have a battleship tank and other does not. That will cause Apoc Vs Oracle problem, but in reverse Geddon will overshadow Curse in every possible way(except speed) and little guy will be collecting dust while other will rule supreme and unchallenged. I wouldn't want that. But maybe you are right, maybe I see ghosts where in reality there are none. |
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:26:00 -
[2972] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:is the abbadon going to get a cap regen buff anytime soon.... it has the same amount of turrets as the apoc.
Even worse, the other 8 turret BS's
Maelstrom
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Arty 1400's - 0 cap/sec AC 800's - 0 cap/sec
Rokh
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Rail 425's - 2.2 cap/sec Neutrons - 1.62 cap/sec
Abaddon
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 6375 / 1250s / 5.1
Tach - 7.6 cap/sec Mega-Pulse - 5.1 cap/sec
Before anyone cries "the Maelstrom is supposed to run a shield booster", yes but does that really justify having 95% the cap total and the same regen of the Abaddon who might also want to fire up a repper once in a while?
At all other levels, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, and BC, the Amarr hulls receive a significant bonus to cap. Why this stops at the BS level is mind boggling to me and has yes to be answered. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:45:00 -
[2973] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:So the geddon will be a poor man's bhaal with drones? It will be a dumb man's dominix. It does everything a dominix can do - just worse. One less turret, one less midslot, and your drones can't apply damage nearly as well. All in exchange for the ability to neut someone 37k instead of 25k. No one has mentioned the utility in that extra neut range, other than to say it makes it sort of like the dragoon. CCP, reading through this thread, we see allot of players saying you are gutting the geddon. Is this because it is a tier 1 BS? If so then the dominix, should be gutted as well. But I thought the tiers were supposed to be going away.
It does everything a dominix can do - just worse. One less turret
No, the dominix gets 6 highs and 6 turrets with no bonuses to guns; the geddon gets 7 highs with 5 turrets and/or 5 launchers to mix and match as it chooses. Given the new improved cruise missiles I think that is how we'll see geddons fit.
one less midslot
But gains the aforementioned additional high slot. Remember drone boats not only need highs for weapons but also to increase drone range. Extra highs are as valuable as extra mids in this comparison unless
and your drones can't apply damage nearly as well.
really isn't important to you. The dominix's drone bonus is very sentry-centric. If you aren't planning to fight at range then the bonus becomes rather useless in most scenarios. And if you aren't fighting at range that leaves you more vulnerable to the geddon's neut range bonus. And if you do fight at range the geddon will always be able to compete on damage with the dominix with the extra high - either through more highs giving superior control ranges or through the fitting of more cruise doing superior damage at greater ranges.
Either way, I see the geddon as the better boat of the 2 and have a stockpile just waiting to be flown. |
Oplar Linzsio
The Amarrian Expendables
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:37:00 -
[2974] - Quote
I think the Geddon will take the place of Apoc for amarr mission runners.. I also do have to agree on the RIP Bhaalgorn statement. How is this really balancing when your throwing everything out of balance?? That being said..
I think the range bonus is CCPs way of separating the new Geddon hull from the Bhaalgorn. 10% bonus at level 5 will put the reach somewhere around 40km (guesstimating).
I would like to see a 5% Range and 5% Amount per level if this is the road we have to go down.. |
Samas Sarum
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:58:00 -
[2975] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:Cearain wrote:Vincent Gaines wrote:So the geddon will be a poor man's bhaal with drones? It will be a dumb man's dominix. It does everything a dominix can do - just worse. One less turret, one less midslot, and your drones can't apply damage nearly as well. All in exchange for the ability to neut someone 37k instead of 25k. No one has mentioned the utility in that extra neut range, other than to say it makes it sort of like the dragoon. CCP, reading through this thread, we see allot of players saying you are gutting the geddon. Is this because it is a tier 1 BS? If so then the dominix, should be gutted as well. But I thought the tiers were supposed to be going away. It does everything a dominix can do - just worse. One less turretNo, the dominix gets 6 highs and 6 turrets with no bonuses to guns; the geddon gets 7 highs with 5 turrets and/or 5 launchers to mix and match as it chooses. Given the new improved cruise missiles I think that is how we'll see geddons fit. one less midslotBut gains the aforementioned additional high slot. Remember drone boats not only need highs for weapons but also to increase drone range. Extra highs are as valuable as extra mids in this comparison unless and your drones can't apply damage nearly as well.really isn't important to you. The dominix's drone bonus is very sentry-centric. If you aren't planning to fight at range then the bonus becomes rather useless in most scenarios. And if you aren't fighting at range that leaves you more vulnerable to the geddon's neut range bonus. And if you do fight at range the geddon will always be able to compete on damage with the dominix with the extra high - either through more highs giving superior control ranges or through the fitting of more cruise doing superior damage at greater ranges. Either way, I see the geddon as the better boat of the 2 and have a stockpile just waiting to be flown.
So it needs the high slot for drone range but won't use sentries because of being in neut range? |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
197
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:04:00 -
[2976] - Quote
Oplar Linzsio wrote:I think the Geddon will take the place of Apoc for amarr mission runners.. Means, never ever used? That's right. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
958
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:28:00 -
[2977] - Quote
Nikuno wrote: It does everything a dominix can do - just worse. One less turret
No, the dominix gets 6 highs and 6 turrets with no bonuses to guns; the geddon gets 7 highs with 5 turrets and/or 5 launchers to mix and match as it chooses. Given the new improved cruise missiles I think that is how we'll see geddons fit..
I admit I have not been following the cruise missile changes very much but that fit does not sound very good at all.
Nikuno wrote: one less midslot
But gains the aforementioned additional high slot. Remember drone boats not only need highs for weapons but also to increase drone range. Extra highs are as valuable as extra mids in this comparison unless.
No way is a 7th high slot as valuable as a 5th mid on a ship that only gets a bonus to neuts and drones. Not sure how the ability to mix 5 unbonused guns and 5 unbonused missiles is better than 6 unbonused turrets. Are you going to fit a bcu, a turret damage mod, as well as a drone damage mod in the lows?
Nikuno wrote: and your drones can't apply damage nearly as well.
really isn't important to you. The dominix's drone bonus is very sentry-centric. If you aren't planning to fight at range then the bonus becomes rather useless in most scenarios. And if you aren't fighting at range that leaves you more vulnerable to the geddon's neut range bonus. And if you do fight at range the geddon will always be able to compete on damage with the dominix with the extra high - either through more highs giving superior control ranges or through the fitting of more cruise doing superior damage at greater ranges.
Either way, I see the geddon as the better boat of the 2 and have a stockpile just waiting to be flown.
Sure the tracking and optimal will help sentries but it will also be a huge help to heavys mediums and even lights. Heavies and mediums often track terrible even when you have a scram and web. And if you have a prop mod and a cap booster then thats the best you can get. Basically a domi with 2 webs is going to be able to do massive damage to any ship in web range. Gleddon not so much.
The increase in optimal should also help in this regard as they usually need to mwd to get in range. Being able to hit from further out also means less tracking issues.
Domi will be able to use sentries for far ranges Geddon won't.
In other words every single fight the domi will likely be applying quite a bit more damage.
Domni gets these big advantages versus being able to neut 37k instead of 25k. I'm just not seeing this as anything great. Can you give me the common examples where this range advantage will be important? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
624
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:06:00 -
[2978] - Quote
Big difference between Geddon and Domi is Geddon can be cruise missile fit with 5 launcher/ turret split option. It's a Khanid weapon now. I'm not on test server or I'd fit one up to see what it did. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 08:02:00 -
[2979] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Nikuno wrote: It does everything a dominix can do - just worse. One less turret
No, the dominix gets 6 highs and 6 turrets with no bonuses to guns; the geddon gets 7 highs with 5 turrets and/or 5 launchers to mix and match as it chooses. Given the new improved cruise missiles I think that is how we'll see geddons fit..
I admit I have not been following the cruise missile changes very much but that fit does not sound very good at all. Nikuno wrote: one less midslot
But gains the aforementioned additional high slot. Remember drone boats not only need highs for weapons but also to increase drone range. Extra highs are as valuable as extra mids in this comparison unless.
No way is a 7th high slot as valuable as a 5th mid on a ship that only gets a bonus to neuts and drones. Not sure how the ability to mix 5 unbonused guns and 5 unbonused missiles is better than 6 unbonused turrets. Are you going to fit a bcu, a turret damage mod, as well as a drone damage mod in the lows? Nikuno wrote: and your drones can't apply damage nearly as well.
really isn't important to you. The dominix's drone bonus is very sentry-centric. If you aren't planning to fight at range then the bonus becomes rather useless in most scenarios. And if you aren't fighting at range that leaves you more vulnerable to the geddon's neut range bonus. And if you do fight at range the geddon will always be able to compete on damage with the dominix with the extra high - either through more highs giving superior control ranges or through the fitting of more cruise doing superior damage at greater ranges.
Either way, I see the geddon as the better boat of the 2 and have a stockpile just waiting to be flown.
Sure the tracking and optimal will help sentries but it will also be a huge help to heavys mediums and even lights. Heavies and mediums often track terrible even when you have a scram and web. And if you have a prop mod and a cap booster then thats the best you can get. Basically a domi with 2 webs is going to be able to do massive damage to any ship in web range. Gleddon not so much. The increase in optimal should also help in this regard as they usually need to mwd to get in range. Being able to hit from further out also means less tracking issues. Domi will be able to use sentries for far ranges Geddon won't. In other words every single fight the domi will likely be applying quite a bit more damage. Domi gets these big advantages versus being able to neut 37k instead of 25k. I'm just not seeing this as anything great. Can you give me the common examples where this range advantage will be important?
7 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones > 6 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones any way you want to view it.
I'd always take a combination of neut + web over dual webs tbh. The option to have a range well over 30km for the neut versus the 10km for the web is just icing on this particular cake. Domis in pvp have practically always carried neuts for this very reason. The extra high is just as valuable as the mid in this case.
Tracking bonus for non-sentry drones makes little difference in almost every possible situation. Check out the Gallente thread for the numbers. The only time it does make a difference is for heavies vs cruisers, in all other scenarios it's ineffective.
Non-sentry drone optimal is so short that any % increase is effectively nil in real terms. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:43:00 -
[2980] - Quote
Nikuno wrote: I'd always take a combination of neut + web over dual webs tbh.
Interesting. What preventing you from taking a combination of neut + web over dual webs on Domi?
Nikuno wrote: The option to have a range well over 30km for the neut versus the 10km for the web is just icing on this particular cake. Domis in pvp have practically always carried neuts for this very reason. The extra high is just as valuable as the mid in this case.
And if I understand correctly you embrace GedDomis new neut bonus, so why would you need this "over 30km" neut range or in what combat situation it will be useful? Can you elaborate on that.
Nikuno wrote: Tracking bonus for non-sentry drones makes little difference in almost every possible situation. Check out the Gallente thread for the numbers. The only time it does make a difference is for heavies vs cruisers, in all other scenarios it's ineffective. Non-sentry drone optimal is so short that any % increase is effectively nil in real terms.
Welcome to amarr thread where we have Apoc and tracking bonus too, so you can check this thread someone also crunched the numbers. CCPs response was "It provides a niche for battleships in smaller groups" etc, etc, etc.
Nikuno wrote:7 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones > 6 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones any way you want to view it. btw. in any way I want ? |
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Kreeia Dgore
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
37
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Posted - 2013.05.23 11:36:00 -
[2981] - Quote
I must say I love the changes overall. Great thing happening to geddon, even abaddon and apoc are ok. But as many already stated this can't be by any chance a job done. Geddon needs one more mid slot, apoc needs a mediocre boost to EHP (just please not structure!) energy weapons need a rework overall because they seem to be too much of a burden even fo amarr ships now when not even apoc can handle its tremendous cap drain! But it is great first step. I just don't want to wait long for the energy weapons to be on par. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling Care Factor
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:43:00 -
[2982] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:is the abbadon going to get a cap regen buff anytime soon.... it has the same amount of turrets as the apoc. I, and a number of others, have been pushing and pushing for something to be done about the Abaddon's cap issues pretty much this entire thread, and CCP Rise has deliberately avoided commenting on it at all. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
959
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:45:00 -
[2983] - Quote
Nikuno wrote: 7 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones > 6 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones any way you want to view it..
If all the highs had turrets, they had the same number of mid and low slots and the drones all had equal bonuses that would be true. But its not.
Nikuno wrote: I'd always take a combination of neut + web over dual webs tbh. The option to have a range well over 30km for the neut versus the 10km for the web is just icing on this particular cake. Domis in pvp have practically always carried neuts for this very reason. The extra high is just as valuable as the mid in this case.
Good luck getting those heavies to do any damage on smaller ships when the pilots can just time their ab and scram based on your neuts 24 second recycle time even without a nos. And if they have a cap booster and mwd they will just laugh at your heavy drones.
I think maybe 5% range and 5% bonus to the neut cycle time would be better. You would still get over about 31k range but you would also reduce your cycle time to 18 seconds instead of 24.
Also eccm and other mods are nice to have in a midslot if you are planning to have plenty of other tackle in a fleet.
Nikuno wrote: Tracking bonus for non-sentry drones makes little difference in almost every possible situation. Check out the Gallente thread for the numbers. The only time it does make a difference is for heavies vs cruisers, in all other scenarios it's ineffective.
Non-sentry drone optimal is so short that any % increase is effectively nil in real terms.
Are you never going to fight cruiser sized or smaller? Never going to fight a hac or other t2/t3 crusier?
Did the calculations take into account the 50% increase in optimal? Because the farther out you can hit the less tracking issue you have. In what way do they think the ai is flying those ogres/berserkers? Seriously on paper it seems like scram and web = heavies doing full damage on just about everything. But in practice they are often horrible.
I admit I am not sure why the heavys hit so rarely but I do know: 1) that even all but a select few frigates with a web and scram goes slower than the 900m/s an orgre goes. But the ogres/berserkers almost never hit. The ogres/berserkers often can't really even hit cruisers that well when they are scramed and webbed. So I know its not just the raw speed. Therefore they must be missing due to the ai being horrible at getting the drones to fly where they can land hits. This must be either due to them flying too far away or in a way that causes tracking issues.
Both are going to be addressed in the domi not in the geddon.
Our different views on this might be due to me being in low sec were battleships often have to fight smaller ships. Maybe in null sec that extra 12km on a neut will be worth the lose of a mid and the loss of trackign and optimal bonuses to your main weapon.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling Care Factor
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:46:00 -
[2984] - Quote
Samas Sarum wrote: At all other levels, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, and BC, the Amarr hulls receive a significant bonus to cap. Why this stops at the BS level is mind boggling to me and has yes to be answered.
Indeed, at a minimum, I think that it should match the Apoc for cap regen/etc. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling Care Factor
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:52:00 -
[2985] - Quote
Also, don't forget that, while Nuets don't kill rat cap, the AI is programmed to respond as if it had lost cap by stopping the programmed effects to simulate cap using mods such as reps and ab/mwd. |
Lugalzagezi666
139
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:04:00 -
[2986] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:Also, don't forget that, while Nuets don't kill rat cap, the AI is programmed to respond as if it had lost cap by stopping the programmed effects to simulate cap using mods such as reps and ab/mwd. Are you sure about that? Because from my testing (5 days ago maybe) npcs DO have cap, their cap regenerates, their cap can be nosed, their cap can be neuted, but they still happily run reps and ewar under neuts even if they have 0.1 cap. So apparently they arent very good at simulating.
Not that it would make any difference in pve unless you dont have dps to kill some overseer or sth. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
624
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:50:00 -
[2987] - Quote
The trouble with PvE is the Sansha neut like gurristas ECM or Serprentis Dampen. That's their Ewar. If the Geddon doesn't have a capacitor buffer, it's not a PvE ship, plain and simple.
In that respect the Minmatar rats are the best ones to kill. They target paint you in to the extreme but they are PvE and were going to apply damage with I-Win optimal anyway. Target paint away, it wasn't going to matter. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
197
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:07:00 -
[2988] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:Also, don't forget that, while Nuets don't kill rat cap, the AI is programmed to respond as if it had lost cap by stopping the programmed effects to simulate cap using mods such as reps and ab/mwd. You can only notice it, if you specifically test for it. In real combat situation this makes no difference. The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. ---áHarlan Ellison |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling Care Factor
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:10:00 -
[2989] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Pelea Ming wrote:Also, don't forget that, while Nuets don't kill rat cap, the AI is programmed to respond as if it had lost cap by stopping the programmed effects to simulate cap using mods such as reps and ab/mwd. Are you sure about that? Because from my testing (5 days ago maybe) npcs DO have cap, their cap regenerates, their cap can be nosed, their cap can be neuted, but they still happily run reps and ewar under neuts even if they have 0.1 cap. So apparently they arent very good at simulating. Not that it would make any difference in pve unless you dont have dps to kill some overseer or sth. I'd submite a bug report about it, then, because according to what they said when they gave mission rats an AI, it's the same one as Sleepers/Incursion rats use, just dumbed down, and that AI does do that simulated thing. Yes, all rats do have a small cap pool, but that's only there so that nos can effect it. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:42:00 -
[2990] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Nikuno wrote: 7 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones > 6 unbonused highs plus 5 bonused drones any way you want to view it..
If all the highs had turrets, they had the same number of mid and low slots and the drones all had equal bonuses that would be true. But its not.
You really should check the new cruise missiles before continuing to make this assertion about turrets. The damage buff they've received is nothing short of monumental.
Cearain wrote:Nikuno wrote: I'd always take a combination of neut + web over dual webs tbh. The option to have a range well over 30km for the neut versus the 10km for the web is just icing on this particular cake. Domis in pvp have practically always carried neuts for this very reason. The extra high is just as valuable as the mid in this case.
Good luck getting those heavies to do any damage on smaller ships when the pilots can just time their ab and scram based on your neuts 24 second recycle time even without a nos. And if they have a cap booster and mwd they will just laugh at your heavy drones. I think maybe 5% range and 5% bonus to the neut cycle time would be better. You would still get over about 31k range but you would also reduce your cycle time to 18 seconds instead of 24. Also eccm and other mods are nice to have in a midslot if you are planning to have plenty of other tackle in a fleet.
I agree absolutely that there are useful mods for the domi's extra mid, it's the assertion that it's more valuable than the extra high which, in this particular case, I disagree with. Neut, additional drone range for a drone boat and the option of an additional weapon are equally valuable. Whilst it might be nice to have any number of other benefits to the neut bonus it doesn't change the advantage of the current bonus.
Continued below due to quotation restrictions on forum
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Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:42:00 -
[2991] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Nikuno wrote: Tracking bonus for non-sentry drones makes little difference in almost every possible situation. Check out the Gallente thread for the numbers. The only time it does make a difference is for heavies vs cruisers, in all other scenarios it's ineffective.
Non-sentry drone optimal is so short that any % increase is effectively nil in real terms.
Are you never going to fight cruiser sized or smaller? Never going to fight a hac or other t2/t3 crusier? Did the calculations take into account the 50% increase in optimal? Because the farther out you can hit the less tracking issue you have. In what way do they think the ai is flying those ogres/berserkers? Seriously on paper it seems like scram and web = heavies doing full damage on just about everything. But in practice they are often horrible. I admit I am not sure why the heavys hit so rarely but I do know: 1) that even all but a select few frigates with a web and scram goes slower than the 900m/s an orgre goes. But the ogres/berserkers almost never hit. The ogres/berserkers often can't really even hit cruisers that well when they are scramed and webbed. So I know its not just the raw speed. Therefore they must be missing due to the ai being horrible at getting the drones to fly where they can land hits. This must be either due to them flying too far away or in a way that causes tracking issues.
I am anticipating fighting smaller ships however that was not the point I made. The information provided came not from calculations but from real figures on SiSi. There was a single case where the tracking bonus was demonstrably useful which is what I informed you of. Theorycrafting supposed benefits will not change the fact that they do not exist. As for the issue with drones hitting, if you have a small ship and are facing heavy drones you used to be able to mitigate the damage by sitting still. The drones own orbital velocity was sufficient to prevent them hitting you. The worst thing you could do was to travel at or slightly above the drones speed allowing them to follow behind and reduce transversal to nil. I haven't tried this in some time, but I doubt cpp have changed the mechanic.
Cearain wrote:[quote=Nikuno]Both are going to be addressed in the domi not in the geddon.
Our different views on this might be due to me being in low sec were battleships often have to fight smaller ships. Maybe in null sec that extra 12km on a neut will be worth the lose of a mid and the loss of trackign and optimal bonuses to your main weapon.
Our views may be different due to a difference in null/low sec strategies, though I have flown and fought in low sec many times and lived in antem for over a year. My dominixes almost always had, and will continue to have, at least one neut. But my geddons will be flown considerably more often until the domi bonus becomes viable away from sentries which is not currently the case.
I have posted several suggestions including increasing the native optimal of each drone type to allow this bonus to become functionally sound, so your suggestions are in the right direction just currently non-viable. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
959
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:28:00 -
[2992] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:Cearain wrote:Nikuno wrote: Tracking bonus for non-sentry drones makes little difference in almost every possible situation. Check out the Gallente thread for the numbers. The only time it does make a difference is for heavies vs cruisers, in all other scenarios it's ineffective.
Non-sentry drone optimal is so short that any % increase is effectively nil in real terms.
Are you never going to fight cruiser sized or smaller? Never going to fight a hac or other t2/t3 crusier? Did the calculations take into account the 50% increase in optimal? Because the farther out you can hit the less tracking issue you have. In what way do they think the ai is flying those ogres/berserkers? Seriously on paper it seems like scram and web = heavies doing full damage on just about everything. But in practice they are often horrible. I admit I am not sure why the heavys hit so rarely but I do know: 1) that even all but a select few frigates with a web and scram goes slower than the 900m/s an orgre goes. But the ogres/berserkers almost never hit. The ogres/berserkers often can't really even hit cruisers that well when they are scramed and webbed. So I know its not just the raw speed. Therefore they must be missing due to the ai being horrible at getting the drones to fly where they can land hits. This must be either due to them flying too far away or in a way that causes tracking issues. I am anticipating fighting smaller ships however that was not the point I made. The information provided came not from calculations but from real figures on SiSi. There was a single case where the tracking bonus was demonstrably useful which is what I informed you of.
Yes this person did the actual testing on sisi and it shows just what I was expecting, the heavys do allot more damage to a cruiser actually orbitting your ship:
ExAstra wrote:Okay, here's round two of my testing...
Stabber: Orbit - Webbed Ogre IIs / Orbit 1,100m to 1,300m Armageddon: Overall Average Damage ranked 43.63, with 70% accuracy Dominix: Overall Average Damage ranked 61.52, with 90% accuracy [/list]
-Bingo. The real power of the Dominix's (tracking) bonus rears its head at exactly this moment, and it is at exactly this moment where the bonus for the first time becomes something actually respectable and not something to scoff at (disregarding sentry drones). That is a very distinct advantage on the Dominix's part.
So now with that test, we can see that the Dominix, against a properly tackled cruiser, gains a significant boost when using Heavy Drones against cruisers. It's nearly double the output of the drones you OUGHT to be using, as well. .
Yes the domi and the geddon do about the same damage when the target is litterally standing still but when it is moving with a single web you can see the dominix does the geddon damage + 50% of the geddon's damage for their main weapon.
The other tests did not involve using heavys (which do the most damage) or they involved a target that wasn't moving at all. Yes sure no difference there. If you can tell your opponent to stop his ship your geddon will be as effective as a domi.
I think the geddon will be used as a gate camper. It will drain the cap of ships trying to burn away. But as far as real pvp, I don't really see the use of the extra 12k range.
I looked at the cruise missile damage.
Gypsio III wrote:Raven with skills, CN ammo and 3x BCS:
Cruise velocity: 10,575 m/s Cruise range: 222 km Cruise DPS: 682 Cruise volley: 4496 Explosion radius: 247.5 m
With skills, Typhoon cruise velocity 7050 m/s and range 148 km, Raven cruise velocity 10575 m/s and range
Given that explosion radius you won't even be able to blap a frigate. It might be good for null sec blobs but I don't see anything useful outside of that.
The geddon with torps might be a good fit though. Zarnak wulf started posted one that looks promising. The extra powergrid may help it compete with the domi. I am not as disgruntled about it as I was before, but still see its main use in low sec as a gate camper. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
108
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Posted - 2013.05.23 21:15:00 -
[2993] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). I'll just leave this here for those arguing about the Domi/Geddon stuff (trust me, the Gallente thread has pretty much beat this topic into the ground). Since you kind of left out pretty much every other test I did and all the information that entailed. Speaking of which, I still have a bit more to do.
Keep in mind that the Dominix and Armageddon are pretty much equal when fighting battleships, as it's not possible for the Dominix to drone size-up against Battleships, and the effective output of both ships using standard drone size for the designated target (lights-frigs, meds-cruisers, heavies-bs) comes out rather even, with no "clear lead" in the Dominix's favor.
Also, the Heavy Drones vs. Webbed cruiser was arguably the single most successful attempt at showing any sort of usefulness for the Domi's new bonus outside of Sentry drones. In most other scenarios the differences were small or applied to situations unlikely in standard PvP.
Regardless, if you want to talk about Domi vs Geddon, I recommend reading some of the Gallente BS thread. Save the drones! |
Lugalzagezi666
144
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Posted - 2013.05.23 21:24:00 -
[2994] - Quote
I agree about neut range. When you need neuts, you most likely need it to shut down enemy logistics or capital and in such cases range bonus wont help you. When you need to shut down active tank (assuming there is still someone out there not using asbs), range bonus will not help you. And its not like you are going to chase loki boosted nanofags in plated slowass battleship.
7.5% neut drain bonus or some neut cycle time reduction (drains more cap) would be much more appropriate.
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Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
959
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Posted - 2013.05.23 22:50:00 -
[2995] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:ExAstra wrote:A quick blanket check of the Dominix vs the Armageddon shows that as of all the tests conducted, the Armageddon did an average 30.67 damage with 83.19% accuracy. Meanwhile, the Dominix comes in with an average 34.98 damage with 89.86% accuracy (That's a 14% overall increase in damage with an 8% overall increase in accuracy). I'll just leave this here for those arguing about the Domi/Geddon stuff (trust me, the Gallente thread has pretty much beat this topic into the ground). Since you kind of left out pretty much every other test I did and all the information that entailed. Speaking of which, I still have a bit more to do. Keep in mind that the Dominix and Armageddon are pretty much equal when fighting battleships, as it's not possible for the Dominix to drone size-up against Battleships, and the effective output of both ships using standard drone size for the designated target (lights-frigs, meds-cruisers, heavies-bs) comes out rather even, with no "clear lead" in the Dominix's favor. Also, the Heavy Drones vs. Webbed cruiser was arguably the single most successful attempt at showing any sort of usefulness for the Domi's new bonus outside of Sentry drones. In most other scenarios the differences were small or applied to situations unlikely in standard PvP. Regardless, if you want to talk about Domi vs Geddon, I recommend reading some of the Gallente BS thread.
First thank you for running these tests. I have a hard time getting sisi to work.
You are right I did not include the tests where you use drones on a target that is not moving at all. I did not expect there to be much difference there. Surely the drone ai isn't so bad the drones will miss an object standing still. Nor did I use the tests where you use smaller drones that deal much less damage. The question is when both pilots are flying optimally what sort of damage can be done.
Did the stabber have an ab? If so did it overheat the ab? You might be able to replicated overheating by putting a few overdrives in. Since I fly in low sec I would be interested in seeing how these drones do when there is an ab cruiser or even if the medium (or heavy) drones can hit an ab frigate that is webbed.
Also one of the main arguments here is what effect that extra mid will have if an extra web is used by the domi. How do the ogres do against double webbed ab frigates and cruisers?
Anyway thanks for running the tests I did copy and paste the only test I thought had application to what you find on tq. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1226
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Posted - 2013.05.24 03:34:00 -
[2996] - Quote
You realize that you don't have to do all heavies with a Geddon, right? You could get a flight of:
Sentries Heavies Mediums Lights x 3
Three staggered heavy neuts will wreck havoc on most targets. I personally liked three heavy neuts and four cruise launchers in the highs. With two DDA in the lows and a flight of sentries you can send 800-900 DPS out to drone range. You could forego BS DPS though and just squeeze on a few rlml or heavies to get four or five heavy neuts on. Smaller ships don't want to be around the Armageddon/ |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
108
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Posted - 2013.05.24 05:58:00 -
[2997] - Quote
Cearain wrote:First thank you for running these tests. I have a hard time getting sisi to work. You are right I did not include the tests where you use drones on a target that is not moving at all. I did not expect there to be much difference there. Surely the drone ai isn't so bad the drones will miss an object standing still. Nor did I use the tests where you use smaller drones that deal much less damage. The question is when both pilots are flying optimally what sort of damage can be done. Did the stabber have an ab? If so did it overheat the ab? You might be able to replicated overheating by putting a few overdrives in. Since I fly in low sec I would be interested in seeing how these drones do when there is an ab cruiser or even if the medium (or heavy) drones can hit an ab frigate that is webbed. Also one of the main arguments here is what effect that extra mid will have if an extra web is used by the domi. How do the ogres do against double webbed ab frigates and cruisers? Anyway thanks for running the tests I did copy and paste the only test I thought had application to what you find on tq. I actually had to completely shield tank the Stabber against thermal Gallente drones, less my Dominix rip it to pieces. Even with over 80% thermic resists and an oversized booster, my Dominix was reliably forcing it under 30% shields from time to time. I could indeed simulate an overheated webbed 10mn AB II Stabber with about three Overdrive Injector IIs on it, though (by my estimates it would only be 4m/s faster than an actually overheated+webbed Stabber).
However, you should note that you would be INCREDIBLY incorrect that Drones are "too smart to miss" an unmoving target. A completely stationary ship will always be better defended (against up-size drones) than one that has any amount of speed. As soon as the ships begin moving is when the heavier drones will begin to outclass the "standard" sized drones in damage. This is why my test only included Stationary Targets, Scrammed Targets, and Webbed targets. For example, the "Scrammed" test involved shooting at a ship that is moving at full orbit speed. A webbed Afterburner frigate (not overheating) barely moves any faster than this (~30-40m/s) and thus the numbers will not show much of a difference. The "stationary" target is simulating, well, a stationary target, but can also apply to heavy webs. The difference of a ship moving 20m/s or not moving at all means nothing to the drones, and they will still miss.
You'll notice that against a frigate, the Medium Drones performed their best against an unwebbed, but scrammed frigate. This is because the frigate's speed is more in line with Hammerhead's orbit speed and the drones get the pleasure of being able to follow the target without having to MWD and ultimately overshoot the target, orbiting it too fast to track for some time. The Dominix's BONUS however, applies MORE against the webbed target. Because now the drones don't get the leisure to just trail behind the target happily shooting away, but are causing high transversals upon themselves by orbiting the target ship too quickly. This is true for both Medium drones vs. Frigates and Heavy Drones vs. Cruisers, and is ultimately the defining moment where the Dominix manages to truly "pull ahead" from the Armageddon. But when you consider the Dominix did 57.93% more damage with Hammerhead IIs vs a frigate SCRAMMED as opposed to WEBBED you begin to question whether the bonus is worth it or not, as webbing the target to make use of your bonus is decreasing your applied DPS, and only increasing your damage in relation to the Armageddon (where the Armageddon DPS is not too far behind if the target is unwebbed).
This is not true for the Stabber test, however, where when webbed the Ogre IIs began to obliterate it. Well, sort of. The Ogre IIs only manage a 3.48% increase in damage (from the Dominix) on a webbed target vs. the scrammed. That's not enough to be noticeable, really. Although the number in this case does indeed heavily outshine the Armageddon (the Dominix's scrammed test also brought it a bit ahead of the Geddon)
If you are familiar with Azual Skoll's similar (and older) tests on this same issue, this information shouldn't be too big of a surprise for you. If you're not, I would recommend giving it a look if you ever get the chance. As far as I am concerned, the only tests that are left are disrupted MWDing Frigs/Cruisers (+webbed results), and a Sentry test (all size ships). An overheated AB test is doable as well.
It just involves a boatload of alt tabbing and number crunching and I've been far more invested into DUST 514 since the last test I did. Long story short though is, the Armageddon is going to be a fantastic ship, don't discredit it. It's pretty much absorbing the Dominix's old role as a Neutboat (it does it just as well, actually better) making it a less attractive prospect for the Dominix. And with the loss of the hybrid damage bonus the all gank Domi's DPS is being slightly hampered.
In regards to the Domi's extra mid, you can't just automatically assume web there (especially when you look at the heavily webbed/stationary drone DPS testing). A drone navigation computer or extra Omnidirectional tracking link are more likely and useful midslots for it. MJD as well.
The point of my tests were MORE in the way to use actual numbers and stats to determine whether the Dominix's new bonus was worth the removal the hybrid damage bonus for non-sentry drones, it was not meant to discredit the Armageddon in any way. Because the Armageddon is just as effective as the old Dominix, but with a slightly different slot layout. The drones will be mostly the same, though. And the Dominix is a beast, so there's no justification in trying to claim the Armageddon is not. Save the drones! |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling Care Factor
256
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Posted - 2013.05.24 15:29:00 -
[2998] - Quote
You know what's really funny is, all this testing on the Geddon vx the Domi is just bearing out what my own initial impressions of the boats were based upon the proposed statistics for the changes, and hence why I never got involved in all the arguing against it.
And my only real initial concerns for the Apoc was in regards to cap, but that was reasonably well addressed after abit by Rise as well.
The really sad part is, anytime anyone tries to do anything similar for the Abaddon after it's changes (and rrealisticaly, even as it currently stands) outside of specific fleet roles designed to specifically prop it up so it can limp along while avoiding them, they quickly get shot down by the overwhelming evidence of how badly gimped it is without those crutches. And the best we get out of CCP is "We will look at lasers later on at some undetermined proposed time in the future as these are the real issues." And, yes, doing this will help both the Apoc and the Abaddon, but it's still not fixing issues the Abaddon has had since it was introduced to the game. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
962
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Posted - 2013.05.24 22:40:00 -
[2999] - Quote
ExAstra
Interesting post. I learn something new every day. At your suggestion, I did look at this blog:
http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/02/drones-vs-frigates.html
Interesting and surprising stuff.
I am not sure it was a good idea to only include the damage after orbit but it makes sense from a consistency perspective. I would think the larger drones from the domi with a longer optimal and better tracking will get more good hits as they approach the target.
I always had a hunch my valkeries were better than hammerheads but I could never figure out what was happening. I am actually still not sure I understand whats happening. Why were the hammerheads scoring so bad in Azual Skoll's test relative to the valks?
It seems pretty clear drone ai needs some work.
I think the ab tests might be interesting. I will need to go back over your tests to see what happened with ships standing still.
Thanks for doing these tests. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
110
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Posted - 2013.05.25 06:55:00 -
[3000] - Quote
Cearain wrote:ExAstra Interesting post. I learn something new every day. At your suggestion, I did look at this blog: http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/02/drones-vs-frigates.htmlInteresting and surprising stuff. I am not sure it was a good idea to only include the damage after orbit but it makes sense from a consistency perspective. I would think the larger drones from the domi with a longer optimal and better tracking will get more good hits as they approach the target. I always had a hunch my valkeries were better than hammerheads but I could never figure out what was happening. I am actually still not sure I understand whats happening. Why were the hammerheads scoring so bad in Azual Skoll's test relative to the valks? It seems pretty clear drone ai needs some work. I think the ab tests might be interesting. I will need to go back over your tests to see what happened with ships standing still. Thanks for doing these tests. I think you completely misread his testing because the test was Hammerheads vs Hobgoblins, not Hammerheads vs Valkyries. Azual's AB tests actually support my statement that the 3 checks I did cover a lot more scenarios than the specific simulated scenario:
Azual wrote:Rifter orbiting at 4km, AB on, 1 web
During this test neither drone dropped back noticeably, however the similarity between the rifter's speed and the hammerhead's orbit speed (both in the region of 500m/s) caused the hammerhead to orbit more slowly, exactly as the hypothesis stated. hobgoblin 989.4 hammerhead 1325.9
That's a Rifter, ABing, while webbed. You'll notice the results are much in the same as my "Scrammed" tests. And as soon as he dual webbed it, the up-size drones begin to miss and standard size become more effective (stationary test) Save the drones! |
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