The extra medslot and fittings are a pretty big deal, really. My concerns about the Raven (and Typhoon) aren't to do with the stats of cruise or the ship hulls themselves, both of which look fairly solid now, they're more to do with the meta and the existence of ABCs. Tone down ABCs further and we may see some gamespace open up for small-gang BS action.

If there wasn't a Cruise Missile buff, would these changes of had a major effect on Raven usage? In your opinion.

if Cruise Missiles had remained unchanged... would this Odyssey Raven change have lead to more usage, especially considering the increased cost of Battleships coming with Odyssey?

For cruises raven's range bonus is....well...I will not say useless but it is of secondary importance. For this kind of setup phoons bonus will be actually more useful as there will probably be no webs involved and for possible cruiser/t3 opponents additional painters and exp vel bonus will prove more effective on applied total damage.

...the cruise buff alone nor the raven buff alone wouldn't have cut it, but both? works joyously

This question is irrelevant, because we are getting a Cruise Missile buff..

your ability to cut and paste from stafan's own thread serves you well young padawan. however... what happens if we... work that out? EGADS! THE MADNESS OF CHECKING NUMBERS!

so lets assuming the typhoon and raven are scrapping with eachother? after all surely that's the point of contention here? my stalwart opinion that the raven's own weapons are compensated for by the extra BCUII when it comes to raw torpedo damage and attesting that the typhoons advantage is in its ability to launch heavy drones?

as you mention, the equation doesn't take resistances into account so lets roll ahead and just look at raw damage from a single torpedo fired from each ship? makes the numbers nice and small.

so firstly the much vaunted typhoon.

explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius (raven with shield tank): 540
target velocity: 141 (lets ignore microwarping for the obvious reasons eh?)
explosion velocity: 133.5
missile damage: 898.41

crunching all those wonderful values in we find that the typhoon deals..... *drumroll* 898 damage to the raven before applying resists! huzzah! full damage application against the raven! you sirs are clearly vindicated in all things and i shall leap from the bridges of the firth of fourth in my exuberant pennance! wait? I've not done the raven yet? oh dear considering i know nothing about missiles its only right i reveal the full extents of my idiocy...

explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

now clearly seeing as i'm so god aweful wrong this shouldn't result in any number which could possibly compete? after all the raven doesn't have the explosion velocity bonus. AND its firing at a smaller signature target. its a forgone conclusion after all we can't honestly expect that the result will be.

903

huh...

well that's curious isn't it? after all you quoted the equation at me! how could this result have turned out with the raven infact applying SLIGHTLY more damage against the typhoon than the typhoon does to the raven... one might think that the difference between the raven and the typhoon when it comes to damage application against other battleships is its drone bay... who'd have thunk it :>

Dude, you did the math wrong.

Damage = Base Damage x MIN(MIN(sig / Er,1) , (Ev / Er x sig / vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
explosion radius: 337m
target sig radius: (I'm feeling friendly, lets use an armour typhoon for that signature radius eh?) 330
target velocity: 143
explosion velocity: 106
missile damage: 923 (that extra BCU does add that slight little bit of love ^_^)

Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(330 / 337.5, 1) , (106.5 / 337.5 * 330 / 143)^(log(5.5) / log(5.5)) )
Damage = 923 * MIN(MIN(0.977, 1) , (0.728))
Damage = 923 * 0.728 = 672.13

Hopefully, they update the CNR within a month from Odyssey release. Seven mid slots and +1000 DPS

Apparently he used 540 sig instead of 330 for the 3rd term of function.

It can already put out 1550DPS, just its damage application is ****!!!

I'll make 4 arguments categorized in 2x2

1: PvP and Torps

There is NO fantasy land where 1v1 BS combat occurs. Even if it does, it is a very very very special occassion, or setup.

There will be very very few cases where the extra range for torps, or the velocity of target BS will matter. Opponents will be webbed down by either you or another gang mate and the combat will happen at close range. You'll be scoring full/near full damage to all BC/BS/Cap and beyond. So if your gang is shield gang go with raven, if armor gang go with phoon. The difference of additional BCS's on raven will be offset by drones and multiple TP's on phoon. So I would expect a similar performance.

....and if you are shooting torps at cruisers, you have brought wrong suit to party. Deal with it.

2: PvP and Cruises

If you are pvp'ing and using cruises, chances are you have a specific kiting fleet that has to deal with stationary/slow moving targets.....or enemy profile consists of t3's and you have to go in battleships.

For cruises raven's range bonus is....well...I will not say useless but it is of secondary importance. For this kind of setup phoons bonus will be actually more useful as there will probably be no webs involved and for possible cruiser/t3 opponents additional painters and exp vel bonus will prove more effective on applied total damage.

3: PvE and Torps

Not enough TP's and no exp velocity bonus on raven, not enough range on typhoon. Both will seriously suck for any serious PvE activity if going torps.

4: PvE and Cruises

2 x Rigor rigged Raven with 1 TP can apply almost full damage to cruiser sized targets, use a mjd, use 5 meds + 1 low for tank and 4 BCS's for damage. Even the drone bay, exp velocity and additional TP(s) won't bring phoon close to rigor raven performance.

So:

PvP with Torps : Both OK
PvP with Cruises: Both OK with advantage to Phoon
PvE with Torps: Both Suck
PvE with Cruises: Both OK with advantage to Raven

So Phoon is better at PvP while Raven is better at PvE
...
...
...
Nothing new here move on.

2 rigor on a phoon? oh wait, we cant do that..That would open that gap you just tried to close with the raven and phoon.

You can but it is pointless. You'll be applying your damage to the fullest due to multiple TP's anyway...and when you do that Raven just has the advantage of 4BCS vs 2 BCS on phoon. Rig slots are better served as tanking rigs on phoon....or damage rigs if you love taking risks.

Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank.

How would you describe the Typhoon's tank?

The math was done, it was only slightly lower than the ravens new tank. What separates the two is that the phoon has a battlecruiser sig? Surely that wouldnt play into how well the ship deals with incoming damage at all.

Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank. So using them for torps or cruise will hinder the ship.

Edit-

On a brighter note, if they properly buff the navy raven, it will be a monster. No doubt the navy phoon will be ridiculous, but even the golem with the new cruise will be nice.

Which is the problem, putting rigors on the raven will hurt its already weak tank. So using them for torps or cruise will hinder the ship.

Edit-

On a brighter note, if they properly buff the navy raven, it will be a monster. No doubt the navy phoon will be ridiculous, but even the golem with the new cruise will be nice.

[quote=Hagika]I don't really get the rage on raven vs phoon. One is shield tanker one is armor tanker use them as your skills permit. They are not reallly stepping on each others toes. Performance wise they are similar with phoon being slightly better for PvP and raven being slightly better for PvE. If you are in a shield gang use raven if you are in an armor gang use phoon.

I honestly hope that they don't mess current Navy Phoon. It is an unique ship that can be fit so many different ways.