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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Centuri
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Posted - 2005.09.26 21:50:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Centuri on 26/09/2005 21:51:05
The manticore's 3rd launcher hardpoint definitely needs to be addressed. Is it so much to ask that all 4 SBs have equal capability in their designed role? The other SB's are only cheap alternatives because in comparison to the manticore they suck. Balance all the SBs and prices will settle down for them all. I for one don't want to train caldari frig to 5 seeing as I already have min frig at lvl 5 just so I can use the uber manticore.
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Sai Remik
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Posted - 2005.09.26 22:53:00 -
[212]
Well, I rarely reply to these sort of things but I'll throw in my two cents because it's late and I'm bored.
First, it's getting a bit old hearing how the Manticore is better and the rest suck. Then learn Caldari skils and be done with it. They're different for a reason. Each race has benefits and flaws and it just so happens that the Caldari gets the perks when it comes to EW. If that's what you wanted to focus on, then you picked the wrong race. There's also nothing stopping you from learning the skills to fly one from any race. Even better, I fly a Raven and I'm also FOR the missile changes in Cold War! It's about time people understand there is no uber ship and you need to fly the right ship for the right purpose. There shouldn't be one ship fits all. *gets off soap box*
Second, I'm for removing the targetting timer delay and module activation delay. While your at it, remove the silly can't cloak while locked crap or at least for the Covert Ops ships. Makes no sense from technical perspective and it's not like Covert Ops pack a whole lot of firepower for this to completely imbalance the game.
Third, remove the local updates. Don't show players who don't speak! If you speak, then you show up. So, that gives Covert Ops a very serious role. Then people actually have to scan the sector before they do anything. Also, it makes the pirates actually have to scan too. You could slip into a sector without them knowing. Right now, I don't feel like Covert Ops is viewed as a primary fleet role which anyone who's served in the actual military, getting intel before charging in is the ONLY option, not a nice to have. Could you imagine heading into enemy territory in a war and getting handed the roster of the enemy before you fight? Don't think so.
More suggesstions would be to create more probe types and skills around them. They're quite limited but I don't necessarily want to suggest slamming in a bunch of upgrades unless you invest in them. This could lead up to actual tech II probes that detect other cloaked ships. Of course you still couldn't lock but you would know they're there at least. You could also make it that a warp bubble pulls you out of cloak too if you think that's a bit much.
Another possible role for Covert Ops would be mine sweeper/defuser (when mines actually become useful).
Of course these are just opinions and I could be wrong. I just think some depper thought needs to go around each of the ship's roles and I think Covert Ops has so much potential that hasn't been realised yet. 
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Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2005.09.26 23:04:00 -
[213]
Huzzah for the changes!
The whole Manticore is the only one worth flying by a long shot thing? Well it's true and not *just* because of it's 3 missile hard points (though that's obviously the biggie). It gets its related missile bonus from the Frigate skill not the Cov Ops skill like the rest. Plus the turret bonuses the others get are totally useless. If something has strayed into turret range then you've screwed up and you're probably dead too because once you've got all your slots filled with items to actually allow you to make use of Cruise Missile range etc, you don't have any kind of tank or other survivability.
Yeah yeah I know it sucks to have everything the same but there can be balance without homogenisation. Like more useful bonuses for the others rather than those sodding turret ones... it would make up nicely (and in a different way) to having a 3rd missile hardpoint. |
Cherry Bombs
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Posted - 2005.09.26 23:56:00 -
[214]
 Originally by: Ysolde Xen
Yeah yeah I know it sucks to have everything the same but there can be balance without homogenisation. Like more useful bonuses for the others rather than those sodding turret ones... it would make up nicely (and in a different way) to having a 3rd missile hardpoint.
I love the idea of having a third launcher HP for my Nemi! And as for the bonuses, I agree that they should be the differing factor between race. Seeing as they are T2, give a racial penalty and stack covert opps and frig bonuses, again, racially.
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SexySexy
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Posted - 2005.09.27 00:24:00 -
[215]
need SiegeLauncher or XL Launcher!
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totes6
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Posted - 2005.09.27 04:00:00 -
[216]
I havent seen anyone ask this, but when will the next patch be out?
Weve got some big changes coming so can we atleast get an estimate when it will be released to the test server and then to the live server?
Thanx
Totes
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Jezala
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Posted - 2005.09.27 04:54:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Jezala on 27/09/2005 04:55:53
Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods.
This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity.
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novrak
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Posted - 2005.09.27 05:21:00 -
[218]
I'd be happy with a cargo hold properly sized for cruise missiles. Seems like I gotta have a freighter following me around to have enough missiles to actually do anything.
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.09.27 05:26:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Jezala
Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods.
This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity.
No. These things really don't need more damage output than they already have. It is a frigate. They should really stay a hit-and-run ship, and overpowering them now would just make them get nerfed to hell a few months down the road.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.09.27 06:26:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Jezala
Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods.
This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity.
No. These things really don't need more damage output than they already have. It is a frigate. They should really stay a hit-and-run ship, and overpowering them now would just make them get nerfed to hell a few months down the road.
No its not just a frigate. It is a Tech II frigate that takes a fair amount of time to train for. And after it has fired that volley, it is extremely vulnerable. It has to wait 30 seconds to recloak and any ship can lock it in that time and stop it cloaking. At that point, any Interceptor can easily trash it.
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
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Jezala
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Posted - 2005.09.27 06:31:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Jezala
Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods.
This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity.
No. These things really don't need more damage output than they already have. It is a frigate. They should really stay a hit-and-run ship, and overpowering them now would just make them get nerfed to hell a few months down the road.
Are you saying that the current Manticore is overpowered? Funny, I thought they were barely able to do a decent job as a bomber. And a Hound, Nemisis, or Purifier with a 3rd launcher would be almost exactly what the current Manticore is today.
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Paxdrago
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Posted - 2005.09.27 06:52:00 -
[222]
I agree that stealth bombers don't have a set role right now. I always thought that they would be more like the torpedo boats of ww2 or the stealth bomber of DC. Lots of damage towards large targets slow moving targets. Lots of stealth. Very thin skin towards any smaller target. They should remain more like now in the targeting time area... However other ships would not be also be penalized in the same manner against them.(lasting effects of cloak possibly very small sig for 20+ seconds) They also should not be able to fill the Anti frig role in any way. They would be only ANti capital ship. Only BC and larger classes would fear them. This could be done by removing the explosion radius bonus and cruise missiles altogether. They would be the only non capital ship capable of firing the Citadel Torpedoes. A group of 2 could easily wound an unguarded BS. They would need thicker skin. It should take 2 antsy to destroy them both before the missiles impacted, but could be done. These ships should be used for critical strikes not for quick ganks.
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.09.27 07:31:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Jezala
Now if you have issues with the Manticore having a 4th launcher, I like to hear what you have to say about it.
Which is what I'm trying to get across, sorry. My main concern is that these things may become overpowered somehow and therefore, be the new omgwtfbandwagon ship. Don't get me wrong - I'm in love with these ships either way and will probably spend the next couple months specializing in them. The point is I don't want to see them become uber and then have the general populace cry "nerf", which in turn makes CCP come back and nerf it to nothingness.
I'm just being cautious when talking about adding more damage potential. Now if you want to talk about adding a 4th launcher slot, that's fine, but something else has to compesnate for that, and IMO it would be the explosion radius bonus. ex: the cruise missiles hit cruisers for full damage but not frigs, which means the explosion radius should be between t1 frig and cruiser sig radius. Which, by the way, is what I'm leaning towards now that we've begun to talk about it.
Bomb larger targets. Surprise miners, carebears, etc. Strike hard and fast, and be weary of inties. That's how I imagined it, is all.
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Bombcrater
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Posted - 2005.09.27 08:27:00 -
[224]
No matter what firepower enhancements are made I don't think Stealth Bombers are going to become the new wtfbbqpwn ship of choice simply because they cost too much and die too easy. A Manticore costs about 22m right now, and that's certain to rise after the patch, plus another 13m for the cloaker.
That's a minimum of 35m ISK for a ship that can die in two seconds flat. And a reasonable setup with T2 modules and named launchers can double that cost, easily.
I don't think there's any other combat ship in Eve that can cost you so much money so quickly 
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Brute Helmet
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Posted - 2005.09.27 10:41:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Brute Helmet on 27/09/2005 10:42:59
Originally by: Ante
Edited by: Ante on 26/09/2005 12:51:26
Originally by: Brute Helmet
Manticore also has 150% the firepower of all other stealthbombers, dont forget that The difference between 3 cruise per salvo and 2 cruise per salvo is quite high, isnt it ?
The mass reduction is needed since the Hound and Purifier both handle more like heavy cruisers than frigates. I havent flown the Manticore or Nemesis so I cant speak as to how those handle.
Did you even read what I typed? You still seem to be hooked onto the idea that firepower > all.
They are supposed to handle poorly. They're bombers. They're heavy. They're big. They carry bloody huge missiles and you expect it to handle like a normal frigate.
Go try and fit a Manticore with three cruise missile launchers + whatever you fit on your Hound or Purifier then come back and tell us all that the extra launcher makes it this magical ship that wtfpwns all.
EDIT: Slight change.
Ive never said that Manticore is some magical supership, it does however have 150% more offensive capability than the others. That needs to be adressed somehow since there are no real advantages to the other stealth bombers. Even with 3 damage mods on a Purifier/Hound and 2 on a Manticore the Manticore is way ahead in salvo damage.
There are many way to adress the discrepancy in damage output, for instance an adjustment of the damage bonus. Let the Manticore keep its 3 launchers and its 5% per level bonus. Increase the bonus to 10% for the other three stealth bombers. Or, make it a 5% per level bonus for all types of cruise and a 10% per level for the racial type.
Oh and the hard to fit Manticore isnt really that unique in that aspect, to fit my Hound with 2 cruise, 1 afterburner and 2 small guns I have to use a MAPC. The guns ? 2 x 150mm AC.
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Kremnican
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Posted - 2005.09.27 11:26:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Kremnican on 27/09/2005 11:27:34
I personaly think, that the stealth bombers should be able to cloak in-warp. ATM this means you always alert the enemies about your presence.
Otherwise I think removing the time delays is a good start for balancing them.
P.S. It's probably off topic, but I'd really like to be able to cloak my Buzzard while "cloaked" after gate jump. ATM, I do a little "blink" in the overview which means the enemies may get a chance to lock on me (I know, it's normaly not the case, but had few moments the lag did work against me).
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Redwolf
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Posted - 2005.09.27 11:57:00 -
[227]
Please fix them before unnerfing them. At the moment they are nothing like you claimed they would be in design, and are just glorified frig/indy gankers.
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Fuazzole
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Posted - 2005.09.27 12:00:00 -
[228]
damage bonus from the Frigate rank
3 launchers at max damage with just covert rank 1
who came up with this
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2005.09.27 12:22:00 -
[229]
Ok instead of having the third launcher and that launcher fitting bonus the manticore has, the other 3 should have another 5% to cruise missile DMG bonus. The manticore will still be ahead on DMG but not by a massive ammount.
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Kage Getsu
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Posted - 2005.09.27 13:28:00 -
[230]
That sounds too powerful to me. My bomber does a great job as it is.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.09.27 17:08:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Fuazzole
damage bonus from the Frigate rank
3 launchers at max damage with just covert rank 1
who came up with this
Try fitting those launchers with Covert Rank 1 
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Fekkerov U
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Posted - 2005.09.27 20:19:00 -
[232]
Since Caldari gets the third launcher. Amarr should get 5000 hp armor since thats the Races strength.
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Centuri
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Posted - 2005.09.27 20:35:00 -
[233]
Or maybe just let the other races ships equip an extra large weapon? Min would be able to equip a 1400, amarr large lasers etc.
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davidfire
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Posted - 2005.09.27 21:04:00 -
[234]
hi
many days ago (before this topic) i star training all to have a Cover ops a manticore electronics lvl 5 electronics upgrades etc... but now i have a question if i buy my manticore now when you make the change my manticore will change or i need to buy it later?
thanks
DavidFire
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Xelios
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Posted - 2005.09.27 21:24:00 -
[235]
Yours will change too, even if you buy it now ;)
_____________________________________
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Vegeir
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Posted - 2005.09.28 00:00:00 -
[236]
Add heavy assault bomber. Same parameters, as slow and manueverable as abattleship but able to fit citadel torp launchers in 3-4 number with bonus to make their explosion radius 110m or cruiser size?
They could use stealth bombers as escort for anti frigate.
hehe and then a stealth dread with.. ok nm
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Jane Vladmir
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Posted - 2005.09.28 00:17:00 -
[237]
Great news, keep up the good work.
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FalloutBoy
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Posted - 2005.09.28 01:08:00 -
[238]
like this change alot !! might actually train for one now. but in my opin they need to omph I would tihnk something like this would work great:
4 Highs 3 Launcher no torrents
1 Mid
1 Low
give it a bonus to torps not cruise and add a -75% ROF mod to it (like the dystroyer has) would give one of these enough burst to down a indy or a barge, but would make it so you need groups to take down anything else which is the way it should be. Would it be possible to make it beable to warp cloak but to protect the role of the covert ops have it so it can't be warped to?
make it so the only real difference between the 4 is the 2 Bonus's (one from the base frig and one from covertops skill). Give each a bonus to thier racial damage type. and have the other bonus be like missile speed bonus for caldari and a second speed bonus for mim (they are supposed to be fast) not sure on gal or amar second bonus but i'm sure you could think of something.
need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more informat |
Weirda
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Posted - 2005.09.28 02:21:00 -
[239]
Originally by: totes6
I havent seen anyone ask this, but when will the next patch be out?
Weve got some big changes coming so can we atleast get an estimate when it will be released to the test server and then to the live server?
Thanx
Totes
same question here - even a ballpark...
as for three launchers on all... don't really care. like the hound how it is and it will actually be better. 
the only one really lacking is the amarr one - it have serious issues to even fit anything else but the launchers and cloak.
2 more grid and 10 more cpu wouldn't hurt any of them...
--
Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Naal Morno
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Posted - 2005.09.28 02:25:00 -
[240]
Again, people.
Removing just targetting delay is very unbalancing to other ships. This will allow decloak and scram in instant. This is very very inbalancing.
I am all for reducing it to covert ops levels.
If you want this so bad to be removed, please disable abilitt of mounting EW on these or remove med slots....
Your Heavy Neutron Blaster II perfectly strikes Serpentis Chief Sentinel, wrecking for 660.4 damage.
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