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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:30:00 - [1] I don't know if it sounds better to say: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Or We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay from cloaking devices fitted to stealth bombers next patch. Or maybe even Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay..... Anyway, that's what we want to do. Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? For their cost and the potential for them to be really cool ships they seem under-used. They came prenerfed since we didn't want them to be too ganktastic but after watching things for a while we think the timers can be removed. So, thoughts? / ?

Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Ticondrius on 23/09/2005 16:37:55 Edited by: Ticondrius on 23/09/2005 16:32:31 I think you will soon have an email inbox flooded with marriage offers...from both genders. My only other request is to give them a touch more CPU/Grid..I don't know about the other 3, but the Nemesis is an absolute pain in the ass to fit, even with maxed fitting skills. My thron is easier to fit than this thing. The Nemesis just doesn't have enough low slots to deal with poor fitting.
danneh	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:32:00 - [3]
Elrathias	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:32:00 - [4] yes please, reduce missile volume while your at it ^^ --------------------------
ponieus	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:32:00 - [5] if yo udo this I wll stop all my training and train up for one. It would make the ship worth having..
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:34:00 - [6] Yes, that sounds good. Id also like a rebalancing of the armor/shield values though. For example the Manticore has like 20 less armor then it has shields (270 shield to 255 armor from memory) That doesnt sound right. Hell, while were at it, im also wondering why they dont receive the same resistance bonus the Assault frigs get?

Tuxford	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:34:00 - [7] OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news _______________

Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Ticondrius on 23/09/2005 16:35:40 Because you touched the Thorax. (BTW, I agree with the proposed Thorax change..don't listen to the whiners.)
Capsicum	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:36:00 - [9] We're not Worthy We're not Worthy {The Forum Rules}\|{Email Us!}
DarK	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:36:00 - [10] Uhh I think that every stealth bomber should be able to fit 3 cruise launchers and not just the manticore. Hell even 4 would be alright.

CCP Hammer	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Tuxford OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news Because you're the new guy


Kaemonn	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Tuxford OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news Because you're still the CCP rookie Its their hazing ritual.

Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:38:00 - [13] Originally by: CCP Hammer I don't know if it sounds better to say: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Or We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay from cloaking devices fitted to stealth bombers next patch. Or maybe even Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay..... Anyway, that's what we want to do. Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? For their cost and the potential for them to be really cool ships they seem under-used. They came prenerfed since we didn't want them to be too ganktastic but after watching things for a while we think the timers can be removed. So, thoughts? / ? <3 <3 <3 Marriage Proposal has been sent. Originally by: DrunkenOne Ahhh yes the ECM Apoc, very deadly. Oh wait... wtf... DPS Sheet
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Grimpak on 23/09/2005 16:39:24 Originally by: Capsicum We're not Worthy We're not Worthy totally agree ...and while you at it, give a bit more grid/cpu to the bombers... since the missile changes, the cruise launchers new grid would make it almost impossible to fit anything else in the bombers. edit: slap the thread with sum stikify glue? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:39:00 - [15] bombers are fun to fly alrdy, but that are great great news!
SirSpectre	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:41:00 - [16] What about the Powergrid? Since Cruiser launchers got a PG increase they have been super hard to fit because the bonus on the bombers was never increased. Can this be fixed?

Tuxford	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Kaemonn Originally by: Tuxford OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news Because you're still the CCP rookie Its their hazing ritual. They told me the hazing ritual was that other thing. _______________

Gentlewind	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:46:00 - [18] Thats a great idea and as someone above me mentioned a bit more grid would be nice too As the skill 'Cloaking' would effectively become redundent maybe you could change it so that every level trained reduces the distance you can be decloaked by 20%. (I hope the above makes sense!)
TekRa	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:46:00 - [19] I think I'm in love! _____________________________________ "hello"
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:47:00 - [20] Edited by: Ithildin on 23/09/2005 16:49:57 Originally by: CCP Hammer I don't know if it sounds better to say: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. snip So, thoughts? TC owns one of the print originals, thanks! EDIT: As for that other thingy about additional thoughts. Why not have them use Torps instead of cruise missiles? I.e. be a nightmare for really large ships. They're really fragile against smaller ships (who can hit them), and as such doesn't really fit in the role as friggy-pwner. -- I'm in to murder, arson, and pillaging. I differe from a soldier in nothing but name and allegience.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:49:00 - [21] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: Tuxford OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news Because you're the new guy No wonder you made him post the t1 ship overhaul thread :/ On topic: Excellent change.
Soren	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: Kaemonn Originally by: Tuxford OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news Because you're still the CCP rookie Its their hazing ritual. They told me the hazing ritual was that other thing. _________________________________________________________
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:52:00 - [23] OMG, <3 Hammer! To be honest this is exactly what I wanted. Thanks for taking another look at 'em, CCP! Ahem. Now on to my suggestions. Having only used the Manticore, and having had no experience flying any other race's ships (period), I'll only be taking a look at the bombers from that perspective. Doesn't mean my following thoughts won't apply for the other bombers... 1) One thing that I think is quite useless on the bombers is the added resistances to shield and armour. They are really too minute to make a difference, and should really be scraped for average resistances with better HP. Doesn't (shouldn't) need to be as much as an interceptor though. 2) Warping sucks in my Manticore, quite frankly. I have fairly good cap skills and I can't get more than 48 AU without draining all my cap. Yeah, these things shouldn't travel *that* far, but adjusting the warp/cap factor might not be a miss. Also, try adjusting the speed to 4.5 AU/s. It's nitpicky, but bombers are little sloooow. 3) There's other things I could bring up, but if the targeting delay is being scraped completely, those suggestions would probably over power the ship =) 4) Did I mention I lub CCP?
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:53:00 - [24] "OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news " Aww, poor Tux ^,^~ as for the change, sounds nice indeed. Mhmm, always liked looks of Manticore, but just couldn't find reason to train for stealth ops... might reconsider, now :s
OutofSight	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:53:00 - [25] Sounds great, but the grid needs to be increased ever so slightly (well maybe more than slightly) i dont own one but im told its impossible to fit 3 cruise launchers on a manticore without using two MAPCs (so you can fit other things)
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:54:00 - [26] Originally by: OutofSight Sounds great, but the grid needs to be increased ever so slightly (well maybe more than slightly) i dont own one but im told its impossible to fit 3 cruise launchers on a manticore without using two MAPCs (so you can fit other things) I fit 3 launchers with two PDU IIs. That was before I got Advanced Weapon Upgrades to IV. Now it's even better
Sadist	Posted - 2005.09.23 16:55:00 - [27] Quote: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Yay for that. This should really improve the situation - the cloak ships will finally become what they were meant to be. --------------- VIP member of the [23]
Zeb Carter	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:10:00 - [28] Sweeeeeeeeeeeet. I already loved my Manticore for frig popping in belts, now it will be more viable for PVP. _______________________
Intar Domi	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:12:00 - [29] i think stealth bombers are pretty useless atm. i only seen one in use, and that was a "semi"-sniper. (semi because of the missile flight time). it could hit anything from 110KMs. removing the targetting delay and the the module activation delay is the least you can do for them. in my opinion they would be really usefull, but probably overpowered when they could warp while cloaked. anyway, useful idea, i agree with the middle one. the stealth bombers should have got some cloaking bonuses, what makes them a bit better at cloaking than other ships. Weenies test. Geniuses solve problems that arise.
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:19:00 - [30] Originally by: DarK Uhh I think that every stealth bomber should be able to fit 3 cruise launchers and not just the manticore. This needs to be sorted out imo. - Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 23/09/2005 17:26:51 Removal of delay would be very nice, yes. ...but as other people here have noted, there are some other problems that need sorting if we want to see stealth bombers become widely used: 1) At the moment only the Manticore has 3 launchers. Since the whole point of these ships is to shoot cruise missiles from range, this gives it massively more firepower than the others, rendering the others useless in comparison. The others need either the third launcher slot, or something that would give them added power to make them competitive with the Manticore. 2) Their power grid needs some looking at, since they were designed for the pre-missilechange grid sizes.
Ethan Tomlinson	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:26:00 - [32] Edited by: Ethan Tomlinson on 23/09/2005 17:26:14 this is great i heart ccp now i can actually use my manti.. now please give eagle a fifth turret slot. I got lvl 5 hac and it cant even do as much dmg as a thorax with gallente cruiser 5 and 250 rails... also fix dps of cerb then i will love u for ever. little more grid too for both so i can fit meh 5th rail
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:30:00 - [33] The turret points on stealth bombers really are wasted. There aren't enough to protect the frigate against any other frigs that get close or to be worthwhile against a larger target making them more or less redundant. Give the ships the same number of missile slots or give each ship somthing unique that makes up for the lack of an extra launcher point (e.g: better speed, resitances, targetting range, damage bonuses and so on).
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:36:00 - [34] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/09/2005 17:38:35 edited for attack of silliness. i somehow missed manticore having the speed bonus, too >.<;;
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:38:00 - [35] Long overdue
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Wild Rho The turret points on stealth bombers really are wasted. There aren't enough to protect the frigate against any other frigs that get close or to be worthwhile against a larger target making them more or less redundant. Give the ships the same number of missile slots or give each ship somthing unique that makes up for the lack of an extra launcher point (e.g: better speed, resitances, targetting range, damage bonuses and so on). yeh i agree, and the extra mid slot of the manticore is also another advantage. sensor dampners and passive targeters etc. the only thing i could think that something like a hound would be able to do better than a manticore is fit a plate, and use remote repairers or transporters in the high slots for some outlandish gang setups, which probably wouldn't be of use practically anyway.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:40:00 - [37] Originally by: j0sephine "1) At the moment only the Manticore has 3 launchers. Since the whole point of these ships is to shoot cruise missiles from range, this gives it massively more firepower than the others, rendering the others useless in comparison. The others need either the third launcher slot, or something that would give them added power to make them competitive with the Manticore." Being able to move over twice as fast while cloaked isn't a good thing? :/ I agree that extra missile point is noticeable advantage, but this is a ship from missile-specialized race... if all bombers are supposed to have the same missile abilities, then please consequently start petition to say, give all dreadnaughts Moros-sized drone bay and drone control bonus? Because it's equally unfair how only one dreadnaught is able to retain signficant offensive ability against regular ships, even when it's in siege mode... ¼¼;; There's a problem with your logic: stealth bombers are dedicated missile ships (that's their function). Dreads aren't dedicated drone ships. Now, if we were talking about missile points on a ship class that wasn't by its nature dedicated to missile use, I'd agree with you. But as long as stealth bombers have by design cruise missiles as their offensive ability, they need to have some balance in that offensive output -- otherwise the only thing we'll see is Manticores, which gets boring fast. I have no problem with the Manticore being slightly better. But at the moment it's leagues ahead.
Zezman	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:43:00 - [38] The single most important thing you could give the Stealth Bomber is to classify it as a true covert ops ship. Right now only the covert ops ship can use the covert ops cloak, and can warp when cloaked. If you can't warp in a stealth bomber, then you don't have a stealth bomber. Look at real stealth bombers that fly missions over Iraq and other countries. Do they fly in visible to everyone on radar, deliver their payload, then suddenly cloak to avoid anti-aircraft fire? NO!
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:48:00 - [39] I edited that reply because made mistake reading the ship stats ^^; it looked like the other ships get cloaked velocity bonus, which i thought would be comparably useful since it'd allow to better avoid detection and get in position faster... but well, looks like they all have that ability in the end :<
Vaux	Posted - 2005.09.23 17:56:00 - [40] Originally by: Zezman The single most important thing you could give the Stealth Bomber is to classify it as a true covert ops ship. Right now only the covert ops ship can use the covert ops cloak, and can warp when cloaked. If you can't warp in a stealth bomber, then you don't have a stealth bomber. Look at real stealth bombers that fly missions over Iraq and other countries. Do they fly in visible to everyone on radar, deliver their payload, then suddenly cloak to avoid anti-aircraft fire? NO! I would love to have a steath bomber that could warp while cloaked. However, if this was the case, would anyone ever use the regular covert ops ships anymore? You could have a regular covops that gets shot down fast, or you could have a covops with some serious firepower: it's not a hard choice. Being able to warp while cloaked is extrememly powerful and makes you pretty much invincible. There has to be some sort of balance. ---------- Vaux CEO, Red Frog Investments
quarlos	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:00:00 - [41] Originally by: Zezman The single most important thing you could give the Stealth Bomber is to classify it as a true covert ops ship. Right now only the covert ops ship can use the covert ops cloak, and can warp when cloaked. If you can't warp in a stealth bomber, then you don't have a stealth bomber. Agreed. Give them the same cloaking abilities as their covert-ops brothers (either through bonuses or the the ability to fit the covert-ops cloaking device).
Darmed Khan	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:05:00 - [42] Edited by: Darmed Khan on 23/09/2005 18:06:39 Originally by: CCP Hammer So, thoughts? / ? Any of those will work for me (Why don't we have a [:heart:] smiley? ) Hammer - have you seen that bug report I sent in a few days ago, concerning the unbalanced powergrid bonuses the manticore gets compared to the other bombers? If you get a chance to revise the powergrid bonuses in the next patch then I'll be very happy At the moment a manticore can fit 3 launchers and use less grid than the 2 launchers on the purifier/hound/nemesis. Here is my post on the forums about it, containing basically the same info as the bug report.
sokken	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:05:00 - [43] Edited by: sokken on 23/09/2005 18:11:04 "Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay....." this might go a bit far, cloaked bs snipegankers ftl. But just for the stealthbomber its cake As for the maticore having 50% more firepower, i agree it could use a bit of balancing, but on the other hand, all races have ships that are much better at their specialty than the 'copies' the other races employ. And this is a good thing. -
Cdr Foxbat	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:08:00 - [44] I agree to the cov-ops cloak - some kind of nerf could be added to the bomber or some boost to the Cov-ops ships propper should be added to keep things nice and peachy. A cloak/warping delay would be interesting - or just something that enabled you to fly in cloaked.... 3 Launchers would be great on the other ships too......
Cdr Foxbat	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:08:00 - [45] Edited by: Cdr Foxbat on 23/09/2005 18:09:53 Edited by: Cdr Foxbat on 23/09/2005 18:09:37 [Event] 2005.09.23 18:08:00 - Do not click the mouse button twice as something is already trying to post Mods please delete
General Givas	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:09:00 - [46] Allow SB's to fit covert ops cloaking device II. SB's need to warp while cloaked. I think removing cloaked player in local would be a good idea also. There's my 5 isk :) Givas
Jagaroth	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:13:00 - [47] My Manticore has become my favourite ship of late. They're already cool. People just don't realise. However, removing the targeting/activation delay would be welcome, but, as with other people, my main issues are: 1. The number of missiles I can carry. Increase bay size or reduce missile size (preferably the latter). I can only kill two bs spawns before having to return to a station. 2. The agility/weight. It can't warp far enough - it's like flying a noob ship all over again. Jump in-hop-hop-hop-jump out. 3. BCU don't seem to affect missile damage. Mine do 485 max damage at the moment with or without the module. Is that right * I don't seem to have particularly bad fitting problems, maybe another 2 Pg would be nice, but it has to have limitations. * I query the need for a 5th high slot and I think damage resistances are irrelevant too. One good hit and you're gone anyway. * It would be nice to be able to cloak in warp so you can sneak up on gate camps unannounced, but I agree that this might render covert op scout ships useless. * If the other races get a 3rd missile slot (seems fair) then the Caldari should have some other bonus (presumably their carrier won't be quite as good as the Gallente). ------
sokken	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:14:00 - [48] Edited by: sokken on 23/09/2005 18:16:30 i swear, the previous post wasnt there when i hit reply silly, now old, idea; It still cant warp while cloaked, but how about giving the stealthbomber the ability to cloak while in warp, so you can arrive unnoticed? -
Fuze Rogue	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:17:00 - [49] yeah as said before - they all need 3 launcher slots. - change the turret bonus on the nemesis (and the others if they have one) for something missile related - increase Pg =)
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:23:00 - [50] I have never tried a covert ops or stealth bomber, but I really hope they are more agile than the submarine-in-syrup AF. Btw, does EW works 100% against NPCs now? Someone said it was nerfed or something.
SageOfMystery	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:27:00 - [51] Look into making them move faster well cloaked, I dont care if it says they are supposed to go faster, there still slow as hell.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:31:00 - [52] Do this and they will be worth using. Please give them a bit more grid/cpu. They are idiotically hard to fit. They turn like a cruiser. If they dont have cruiser armor can you at least make the cargo HUGE. At least it would give them a better operational range and give them a reason to have such a poor agility. Nyxus
Zzazzt	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:31:00 - [53] Originally by: sokken silly, now old, idea; It still cant warp while cloaked, but how about giving the stealthbomber the ability to cloak while in warp, so you can arrive unnoticed? Not silly, if it's possible. That would preserve the covops' role as a scout ship whilst allowing the SB to do what it's supposed to... ____________________________________________
Jet Max	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:32:00 - [54] I am looking forward to this change too,as i realy investing alot of time into skills to operate bomber at its best in current state, but here of some my views on Nemesis [the only one i can fly]: As someone mentioned it has very short warping range, and i allways getting left behind.Its very slow to get into warping, it seems cruisers align way faster.Turret hardpoints are useless, bombers are too fragile to engage someone at short range, even at long range sniper will take you down in 2 shots and your flying path will make no diference, thats why i would like bombers to have "uncloak-fire-cloak-hit" feature back, after using my Nemesis for a bit i noticed its very easy to evade big damage from bombers cruise missile is to fly away [no AB or MWD needed]from incoming missiles, as bombers usualy launch attacks from long distance you have plenty time to do so. In all getting targetting timer delay removed is very welcomed change.
RedClaws	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:38:00 - [55] very important : They need the same amount of slots : the caldari one is 50% more powerfull than the other 3 stealthbombers atm. The turretslots are no use at the moment because if anything comes close you'll be dead since it has the same hp as a tech 1 frigate But yes taking the timer off for cloaks is a very good idea since atm cloaks are completely useless in pvp and the signature res penality should be enough of a penalty really. (not just for steathbomber)
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:39:00 - [56] In all honesty (whilst this is a good change), I think a much better option for Stealth bombers would be to do the following: Allow them all to use 3 launchers. Change the launcher from Cruise, to Siege and remove the hidden bonus to explosion radius. What you will get is a small ship, that can hit Battleships hard but are very vulnerable to smaller escorts eg, Interceptors, Assault Frigates, Destroyers. As we all know, torpedos are pants against anything smaller than a BS. The rationale for this is as follows: EVE already has a myriad of ships that are capable of destroying frigates/elite frigates. If the Stealth Bomber remains with its Cruise missiles having the sig radius of a Light missile, then we have another ship filling the already well filled niche. Removing the cloaking penalties before there is a countermeasure to cloaking, will in my opinion, make the Stealths far too effective at raiding. A gang of these would be nigh on impossible to catch, and can wait at gates in near invulnerability (the odd, very lucky warp trajectory aside) and pick and choose their targets without reprisal. In short: Stealth Bombers need looking at. Until there is a counter measure to cloaking then a total removal of the targetting and module penalties will be unbalancing. I'd like to see them reworked as a bomber much like in the freespace games.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:43:00 - [57] I think this is just lack of skills on your part, Jet. Warp range on the Nemesis is fine, it's the Manticore that sucks in that respect. Train up Warp Drive Operation a bit. Targets running away on MWD is a real problem, especially if it's a frigate because the CMs will do tiny damage even if they hit. But for frigates without an MWD, or larger ships, just fire from well below maximum rage. My max is something like 135km, but I usually engage from 60-100km, depending on the target type. With T1 frigs and Intys you should get as close as possible.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.23 18:51:00 - [58] Edited by: Meridius on 23/09/2005 18:55:59 Uh i don't know a lot about Stealth Bombers but they don't seem to balanced at first look. Specifically, the Manticore is uber and the rest suck. These changes sound great btw... Scrap that, i think Stealth Bombers are dumb. What is there role exactly? Why do they do lots of damage to frigs, are they not suppose to be more effective against larger targets like battleships? ________________________________________________________

Kaemonn	Posted - 2005.09.23 19:03:00 - [59] Ok, we need a sticky now.

Justice Starcatcher	Posted - 2005.09.23 19:10:00 - [60] Thank you, thank you, thank you! As for covert-op cloak, it dosn't need it, it was never meant to have it. The stealth bomber is really meant to lurk around in the same spot. As for the comparison of the Manticore with the other races, I don't need a third launcher if I have some kind of compensation. If I could fit enough BCU's, to compensate for having one less launcher, in dps I would be happy. The turrets and gun damage bonus just dosen't compensate. Whe I first looked at the different ships, I assumed BCU's and easier fitting would be the balancing factor in the ships. But, its just as hard to fit a Nemesis as a Manticore. I'd also like to have my missiles hit even if I cloak after launching. What the...
Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.09.23 19:10:00 - [61] mmmm.... sniff sniff Wheee! Superglue rox...
Merdekka Radaen	Posted - 2005.09.23 19:15:00 - [62] Fitting Fitting is a pretty big issue for me. Even with advanced weapon upgrades lvl 5 you still can't get away without fitting a micro aux on the Manticore. Sure, you can fit the launchers without it, but that's about it. It's a tech II ship, it should at least be able to fit three tech I cruise launchers without almost doing itself a mischief in the process. (advanced/weapon upgrades 5, covert ops 4) 3 x Cruise Launcher I 1 x Improved Cloaking Device II = 34.08/37.5 MW, 195/306.25 TF. For a tech II ship specifically designed to use three cruise launchers, I have only 3MW for my remaining seven slots with advanced weapon upgrades 5? I don't want a load of extra grid, but it would be nice if the ship didn't require a micro aux by default. That's just silly. As you can see, the cpu situation isn't great either. Since the ship is so hopelessly weak, a little electronic warfare is your only real option for defence, but get ready to shop around for named t1 mods. The other bombers don't get as badly burned on fitting, but then who wants to fly a bomber with 2/3 the firepower of the manticore? There, I said it! Health Really, what is up with the health on these ships? They're barely stronger than their tech 1 counterparts and that resistance bonus... Who's idea was that? It really is so minor that it might as well not be there. I realise that their main defence is supposed to be their inherent stealth, but it seems kind of cruel to make them so weak. I'm not suggesting they get "assault" resistances, but it would be nice if they got say 50% extra health in all areas and the resistance bonuses that blockade runners get (50% to racial primary + 25% to racial secondary.) They'd still be very weak because of their low speed and agility, but at least they wouldn't explode spontaneously when something looks at them funny. For example (Manticore): 360 structure/307.5 armour/337.5 shield shield resistances: 60/55/60/0 (Resistances same as "Crane" Caldari blockade runner in other words.)
aeti	Posted - 2005.09.23 19:47:00 - [63] give them some sort of explosion velocity bonus as well and then they would be good
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:10:00 - [64] Actually, in response to what Merdekka Radaen said, my powergrid turned out fine. I have to use two PDU IIs, but I'm sure that with the damage bonus that CCP would rather not have BCUs fit on this ship (though that'd be nice, ne? ) The real problem I had with the ship was CPU. To fit the midslots I wanted to I was ~12 CPU short unless I fitted Arbalests :(
Dryxonedes Sae	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:21:00 - [65] Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this. If the other bombers get a 3rd missile bay, i'd be expecting the eagle and cerb to recieve and extra turret/missile (respectively) slot aswell to "even" the playing field. That said, the rest do need an applicable bonus to boost them toward a manticore, put them above somewhere else, but leave the steroid kessie at the top for outright damage.
RedClaws	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:28:00 - [66] Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this. Oh please...You want caldari to be 50% more effective
Locke Ateid	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:34:00 - [67] Edited by: Locke Ateid on 23/09/2005 20:34:41 Originally by: RedClaws Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. You know, Minmatar use lots of missiles too.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:43:00 - [68] Originally by: RedClaws Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this. Oh please...You want caldari to be 50% more effective 33% more effective ------
Forsch	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Jim Raynor 33% more effective 2 launchers = 100% 3 launcher = 150% That's 50% more. The Auctoritan Syndicate Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:48:00 - [70] Originally by: CCP Hammer I don't know if it sounds better to say: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. You want to remove the "Sensor Recalibration Timer" all together? I assume this is only because there is a "40% Scan Resolution Bonus" on there. So you actually have "Covert-Ops 5 second ect" recab time but with "Scan Reso" instead? If so, I don't think this should be changed to it. Only for the fact people can activate "Sensor Boosters" to get around it. So I don't agree with this for the fact I pvp in my "Covert-Ops". I still have a recab time but no "Scan Reso Bonus". I can't activate a module to lower my "Recab Time" heh. I'm all for giving "Stealth Bombers" some loving. But I think maybe giving them the same recab time as my "Covert-Ops Cloaking Device" would be better. But still have the "Scan Resolution Bonus" on it. So they can start targeting after 5 seconds or less. I'm happy with that. As long as they can't warp and cloak all cool like... -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:49:00 - [71] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 23/09/2005 20:49:01 Non-Caldari have 2 -> 100% Caldari have 3 -> 150% Sounds like 50% more to me, but hey. Its a matter of math eh? But lets face it. The Manticore does 50% more damage then any of the others. That makes all the other ones suck. And i fly them all, before you wonder.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Jim Raynor 33% more effective 2 launchers = 100% 3 launcher = 150% That's 50% more. but only 33% more damage output the third cruise launcher is hard to fit as well it seems ------
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:57:00 - [73] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 23/09/2005 20:59:14 Yea. Just about as hard as it is fitting any of the others with 2 launchers/2 guns. Manticore owns them all because its the only one that can one-volley frigates. And at the rate these things die against a frigate that lives past the first volley, that makes all the other ones suck. EDIT: Granted, i do have Cov Ops 5, which kinda helps i suppose.
Merdekka Radaen	Posted - 2005.09.23 20:59:00 - [74] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Actually, in response to what Merdekka Radaen said, my powergrid turned out fine. I have to use two PDU IIs, but I'm sure that with the damage bonus that CCP would rather not have BCUs fit on this ship (though that'd be nice, ne? ) The real problem I had with the ship was CPU. To fit the midslots I wanted to I was ~12 CPU short unless I fitted Arbalests :( What the hell is wrong with wanting to fit ballistic controls on a missile ship! As for the 2/3 launchers debate, that's a tricky subject. The Caldari are the missile race and should probably get a little something extra in that department, but there's a big gulf between having 2 and 3 launchers that makes the Manticore significantly more appealing. Also, just think what would happen if you went completely by the racial backgrounds. Amarr would have a stealth turret ship? Gallente would have a stealth drone ship? I'm a little divided on that issue, I see the manticore as the king of bombers because of the extra launcher, but also don't want to lose what little racial diversity these ships have left. I mean look at them, it's just the same ship four times over in reality. That's a new low. Hell, if it was up to me I would have a stealth turret and stealth drone ship. I'm going to go cry now.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.09.23 21:01:00 - [75] Gah! You're all getting your reciprocals mixed up The Manticore does 150% of the damage of the other SBs. Hence 50% increase. The other SBs do 66% of the damage of a Manticore. Hence 33% decrease. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Darth Revanant	Posted - 2005.09.23 21:02:00 - [76] The sensor delay and module activation are the single thing wrong with bombers. I took my purifier deep into enemy territory (as stealth bombers should be able to do). I had 14 hostiles in local but could never fire at any targets because by the time i would have been able to do anything, the other 13 would be on me. Now that you're getting rid of that, I'll give a few other reccommendations (purifier only 'cause it's all I can fly): 1) Five high slots is pointless, get rid of one. 2) Turrets on these ships are pointless. Get rid of the turret slots and related bonus. 3) Caldari should remain the best missile chuckers. I think all the bombers need to either keep the 2 missile slots but get a damage boost, or get the third missile slot and give the manticore a damage boost. The other three need to do more, but should not be better than the manticore. I sure as hell wouldn't want an uber armor tanking caldari ship. 4) The stealth part: granted it shouldn't have the ability of a cov ops cloak, but it does need something to make it stealthy 'cause it's not right now. Who cares if it can fly faster cloaked when all it's doing is sitting in one place waiting for a target becase if it warps in on its target there's no stealth involved? I like the idea that it can't warp while cloaked, but can cloak while IN warp. Maybe it can only cloak while in warp to balance it? I also think it should be able to cloak right after firing. Perhaps give it a locking/module activation delay after cloaking (not decloaking, notice the difference), that way it could decloak, fire, and cloak again, but not decloak and fire again as soon as the launchers cycle.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.09.23 21:06:00 - [77] Umm how about no... You're making it like the covert-op cloak if you give them the ability to cloak in warp. The only diffrence it will be is "Scan Resolution Bonus" which can be countered with mods. The ship can cloak and is "Stealthy". Moving around (Warping) is it's drawback to not being "Stealth". -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.23 21:10:00 - [78] Originally by: Julien Derida Gah! You're all getting your reciprocals mixed up The Manticore does 150% of the damage of the other SBs. Hence 50% increase. The other SBs do 66% of the damage of a Manticore. Hence 33% decrease. so we're both right? i mean im thinking if 3 launchers is 100% of your damage, and the other have 2, they do 33% less, though the manticore does FIT 50% "more" ------
Kollgorholl	Posted - 2005.09.23 21:16:00 - [79] Originally by: Masu'di Originally by: Wild Rho The turret points on stealth bombers really are wasted. There aren't enough to protect the frigate against any other frigs that get close or to be worthwhile against a larger target making them more or less redundant. Give the ships the same number of missile slots or give each ship somthing unique that makes up for the lack of an extra launcher point (e.g: better speed, resitances, targetting range, damage bonuses and so on). yeh i agree, and the extra mid slot of the manticore is also another advantage. sensor dampners and passive targeters etc. the only thing i could think that something like a hound would be able to do better than a manticore is fit a plate, and use remote repairers or transporters in the high slots for some outlandish gang setups, which probably wouldn't be of use practically anyway. I also totally agree. What's the point of the turrets? especially considering the powergrid of your average stealth bomber, which severely limits the fitting of any decent turrets without using mapc's in your low's rather than overdrives or nano's; which are the only kind of of propulsion upgrades which benefit a steath anyway. i've been flying Sealth bombers for a while cause i love the Tristan but now it seems that they will finally be a good deal more useful. I wish i'd spotted this thread sooner, I would have trained covert ops to level 5 instead of Assault ships. Also: please please please look at the powergrid of the stealth bombers, at least give the nemesis the extra 3 power that the tristan's gonna get with the overhaul. every little helps, and with the ridiculous power that cruise launchers need it would really really really help. atm i have adv weapons upgrades to lvl 4 but still need 20.1 power to fit each launcher and that's two launchers out the max 43 pg i can squeeze out of my nemesis, leaving less than 3pg for my 4 mids and 2 lows. you do the math. please get it sorted ccp. anyway, i know the stealth bomber need some attention and thanks for this overhaul.
Wraeththu	Posted - 2005.09.23 21:27:00 - [80] Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. Ok, if that's the case, then the hound should be able to fit 3 1200mm howies, and 3 megabeams on the amarr one, and 3 350mm railguns on the nemesis. I mean, that's their specialty right? Missile hardpoints should be the same across the board. The manticore should have an extra mid-slot and extra cpu, not half-again the sole reason for the ship's existence.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:10:00 - [81] Edited by: Julien Derida on 23/09/2005 22:10:39 Originally by: Jim Raynor so we're both right? i mean im thinking if 3 launchers is 100% of your damage, and the other have 2, they do 33% less, though the manticore does FIT 50% "more" Yeah, you're both right in a way. Although it depends on exactly what you meant in your original post. You have to be very careful to make it clear what your referring to when quoting percentages. In this example it's important to distinguish between percentages of the Manticores damage/fitting/whatever and percentages of the other SBs damage/etc. For example, "The Manticore does 33% (of a Manticores damage) more than a normal SB" is correct. "The Manticore does 33% (of a normal SBs damage) more than a normal SB" is not correct. The confusion arises when you just write "The Manticore does 33% more damage". You probably mean it as the first statement above, but everyone else interprets it as the second statement and hence disagrees. The same principle applies when you read someone else saying "The Manticore does 50% more damage". You disagree because you think they mean 50% of one number when they in fact mean 50% of another number. Apologies if that's too confusing/patronising, I've drunk too much wine :P. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Locke Ateid	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:11:00 - [82] I'd be happy if the Manticore had three missile high points and the other races had only two if the Manticore wasn't such a EW meany aswell. Give it only two mid slots to make it as equally gimped as the rest of the stealth ships.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:13:00 - [83] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 23/09/2005 22:13:50 just to respond to the manticore 3 launchers, others 2 thing: the manticore has a ****ty locktime, its even slower then the other stealthbombers, and the warprange is 46AU - guess how annoying that is (i got the warp skill at lvl4). it has its disadvantages and advantages, i can imagine having 2 250mm arties can b really useful with taking out inties as example. non caldari bombers also have the ability to fit several bcu, if the fitting reqs arent too high - dunno. but to sum it up, imo - give all bombers3 launchers, and let the caldari bombers lock, agil and being able to warp as long as the other bombers ;)
Weirda	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:13:00 - [84] Edited by: Weirda on 23/09/2005 22:18:52 the turret slots will be much more useful after this change... perhaps even more useful then the cruise launchers themselves... (you ppl need to think - dammit) don't change the turrets... or turret bonuses - projectile are already bad enough w/only one bonus. would have to say though - the purifier really need more grid (more then the others) because there isn't a class of laser (outside gatling pulse) that can fit on there... though maybe that too is alright with the new ability to activate module right out of cloak... Weirda suggestion it should get no scan resolution penalty with cloak either... while you at it. if you boost the resolution too much to compensate - everyone will just instalock w/no cloak... about the manticore 3rd slot -all bombers have racial damage type 5% level EXCEPT manticor... brings the gap a little closer - tuxford can deliver us some good news if that will be changed to 5% all types and 7.5% racial (for all ships but the manticore)... this is you chance TUX!!! i.e. weirda don't have problem with the launcher differential. if you do - train caldari frig 5... it only about a week if you already fly the others... weirda personally feel that AM more happy in hound then would be in manticore! -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:22:00 - [85] Three Seige launchers is the way forward. Think bombing runs in Freespace 1 and 2!
Coug	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:36:00 - [86] This change is exactly what they need - now they will really be the submarines they should have been from the get go. Travel on the surface (uncloaked), then dive (cloak), stalk, then pop and shoot immedately after uncloaking. They are fragile, but surprise is a wonderful tool. ~C~
sableye	Posted - 2005.09.23 22:47:00 - [87] hmm sound snice I might start stocking up on cheap nemesis now but i do think that all stealth bombers should ahve 3 launcher slots its not really good that one is so clearly the best (manitcore).
Wraeththu	Posted - 2005.09.23 23:12:00 - [88] Originally by: Weirda about the manticore 3rd slot -all bombers have racial damage type 5% level EXCEPT manticor... brings the gap a little closer huh? Manticore: "5% bonus to Cruise Missile kinetic damage per level" Seems like a damage bonus, and it's the caldari racial one. Not only that, but instead of a wasted bonus to turret damage or recharge or whatever, You get an extra 5% reduction in grid per level for the launchers.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.23 23:25:00 - [89] Originally by: sokken Edited by: sokken on 23/09/2005 18:11:04 "Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay....." this might go a bit far, cloaked bs snipegankers ftl. But just for the stealthbomber its cake I think the "..." is meant to be "on stealth bombers".
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.23 23:27:00 - [90] Oh, and just to throw one other interesting thing into the mix Burst ECM
Chi Prime	Posted - 2005.09.23 23:36:00 - [91] Originally by: CCP Hammer We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Hammer, I want to have your babies! \o/
Bagdh Dearg	Posted - 2005.09.23 23:47:00 - [92] Lads its plainly obvious what must be done.(In my sick,Logic twisting mind anyway ) Buff the SB's as planed HOWEVER rework the Amarr,Gal and Minmatar Stealths into something other then a half assed attempt at a bomber. As it has been said the Caldari are Missile Kings,and should ofc have the stronger missile boat. However the other races simply cant cut it when it comes to missiles so why not modify the other racial ships into ships which mix Cloaking Tech and the Racial specialities,Which ofc. is handy as they are classed in the Covert Ops group and not as specific Stealth Bombers. Imagine Stealth AF's(Well not as powerful but it would be the general idea, Using the 3 other racial ships) escorting a group of Manticores. Sitting cloaked at a gate when a gank squad of say a few BS + Inties jump in and stay at the gate. Cue SB's decloaking and launching on one BS. The escorts wait to reveal themselves till the Inties have engaged then start dealing with the Inties while the Bombers kill the BS. When its down the entire group warps off and cloaks. Now I know this is biased toward Caldari as other races would obviously want ther own bomber so this then leads us back to the countless, excellent ideas of a dedicated SB weapon system. A massive missile that has a slow refire rate but is devastating. Another solution to some of the problums is again a Dedicated SB cloak/Stealth mod. My own personal favorite is a mod,that when activated doesnt fully cloak you but reduces your sig radius by a massive % giving you a miniscule Sig radius thus giving you the time to attack and pull out before they've even locked you. No penalty to speed or resolution and you can lock however activating a mod(ANY mode not passive) has the reverse effect, Shooting your Radius sky high but once the mod cycles down it returns to its tiny state. So firing makes you vulnerble but the instant it cycles off you are safe enough again. The main problum to this and the concept of SB's ingeneral is that no one has any idea on what they're ment to do. Are they designed for sneak attacks on BS's(As the BS-Class weapon on a little frigate) or for blasting frigates(as the bonus to explosion radius) If we can concentrate SB's into one area and one area alone then things will definatly start to look very good for bombers. Oh and yes this is a great update and lots of love for the Devs _______________________________________________ An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic -He who is not strong must be crafty
QwaarJet	Posted - 2005.09.24 00:09:00 - [93] I don't think there is much of a point in people who have never flown a Bomber giving suggestions, as they have no clue how it actually works. I don't want the thing to be too good, because then everyone will be flying them.At the moment, Bomber's main advantage is that very few people know how to dela with them. Only thing I would ask is have all of the bombers have at least 3 launchers. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.24 00:13:00 - [94] Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Becuase it just encourages MORE ganking? Given the explosion radius bonus, it's an insta-win button against T1 frigs. It's a bad idea. A bomber should be good against BIG ships, not small ones as this change makes them. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
sableye	Posted - 2005.09.24 00:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Becuase it just encourages MORE ganking? Given the explosion radius bonus, it's an insta-win button against T1 frigs. It's a bad idea. A bomber should be good against BIG ships, not small ones as this change makes them. eveyy tech 2 ship is prey much an insta win against tech 1 frigs, perhaps the intys can't insta win aginst atech 2 ship but they can sureley escape any tech 1 frig that could potentially kill them. the stealth bombers are really vunerable to larger ships, slow warp, slow moving and no hitpoints.
Stan D'marco	Posted - 2005.09.24 00:40:00 - [96] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Becuase it just encourages MORE ganking? Given the explosion radius bonus, it's an insta-win button against T1 frigs. It's a bad idea. A bomber should be good against BIG ships, not small ones as this change makes them. Do they not let you use afterburners or mwd at DIE? =) (Old corp buddy to old corp buddy joke) When you get up to speed the cruise still won't hurt you. And this leads us into the useless turret slots. Frig + Bomber + close range = very dead bomber. Even by the time you locked, webbed, fired and are waiting for the next volley you are dead. I don't mind the bomber being a long range ship and i welcome the proposed changes, but something needs to be done about the instant death that awaits every bomber that jumps into a system with only one inty waiting at the other side. Yes, you can cloak at once but not get away. The inty just needs to continue his aproach and you will decloak and die. The speed bonus does not help here since the bombers have to much mass and never get very far. That is making it a little bit to easy for the inty. How about the jump drive thingy dreads have? Can it somehow let the bombers arrive in a system without getting insta killed at the gates? Dunno, 2:30 AM and I'm rambling.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.09.24 01:03:00 - [97] Originally by: Wraeththu Originally by: Weirda about the manticore 3rd slot -all bombers have racial damage type 5% level EXCEPT manticor... brings the gap a little closer huh? Manticore: "5% bonus to Cruise Missile kinetic damage per level" Seems like a damage bonus, and it's the caldari racial one. Not only that, but instead of a wasted bonus to turret damage or recharge or whatever, You get an extra 5% reduction in grid per level for the launchers. sweet jesus - didn't think to look on the FRIGATE skill level -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Vishnej	Posted - 2005.09.24 01:24:00 - [98] Edited by: Vishnej on 24/09/2005 01:29:16 A) Add something into the description about this ship's predilection for PRECISION with its missiles. B) List the sig radius bonus in attributes. C) Change the ship-specific bonuses as follows: Amarr: +10% EM damage per level of covops, +10% armor resists per level of frig 5. Gallente: +5% kinetic damage per level of frig, +10m3 drone bay per level of covops (send drones to attack, cloak, stand back) Caldari: Keep it as is. Minmatar: +10% explosion damage per level of covops, +10% max velocity+agility per level of frig D) +1 lowslot to each ship
Grimster	Posted - 2005.09.24 02:08:00 - [99] Edited by: Grimster on 24/09/2005 02:08:45 Originally by: Ticondrius Edited by: Ticondrius on 23/09/2005 16:35:40 Because you touched the Thorax. ROFL - this is exactly what I thought too.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.24 02:19:00 - [100] Originally by: Stan D'marco And this leads us into the useless turret slots. Frig + Bomber + close range = very dead bomber. Even by the time you locked, webbed, fired and are waiting for the next volley you are dead. The above scenario is only correct if the bomber pilot has no idea what he or she is doing. It's quite possible to fit-out a bomber to kill any frigate bar Assualts, including interceptors. Some types of inty die with almost laughable ease if you know how to handle them. I've had lots of fun sending gung-ho inty pilots home in a pod, tainted with the shame of having died to a stealth bomber In their present form bombers can be effective, but the skills and hard work required to get to that point are a bit crazy compared to other T2 frigates.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.09.24 02:32:00 - [101] Another thing: Let the bombers uncloak, fire, and cloak while the missiles are in the air. It only makes sense to me. Nyxus
Beldaws	Posted - 2005.09.24 03:10:00 - [102] \o/ Sure am glad I bought my stealth bomber bpo yesterday! I agree with everyone that something has to be done with the Nemesis, Hound and Purifier to balance them with the Manticore. How about giving them a missile velocity, rate of fire, higher damage bonus, or a larger explosion radius than the Manticore to compensate for the lack of a 3rd missile launcher? I'd love to see the ability to fire and cloak return, but that might be asking too much.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.24 03:18:00 - [103] "Do they not let you use afterburners or mwd at DIE? =) (Old corp buddy to old corp buddy joke) When you get up to speed the cruise still won't hurt you." With the explosion velocity + 'falloff' of cruise missile, to get damage reduction that actually matters the ship needs to go at ~2.5 km/sec or more (2.5 km/sec means reduction to ~1/4th of full damage, 2 km/sec means ~half of full damage) ... there isn't many tech.1 ships that can get up to that speed with afb/mwd ... or even tech.2 ships, for that matter -.^;;
Pharuan	Posted - 2005.09.24 03:43:00 - [104] Originally by: Vishnej Edited by: Vishnej on 24/09/2005 01:29:16 A) Add something into the description about this ship's predilection for PRECISION with its missiles. B) List the sig radius bonus in attributes. C) Change the ship-specific bonuses as follows: Amarr: +10% EM damage per level of covops, +10% armor resists per level of frig 5. Gallente: +5% kinetic damage per level of frig, +10m3 drone bay per level of covops (send drones to attack, cloak, stand back) Caldari: Keep it as is. Minmatar: +10% explosion damage per level of covops, +10% max velocity+agility per level of frig D) +1 lowslot to each ship I just wanted to bring your attention to the Gallente bonus you had made up. When you cloak, your drones become inactive. Thus that usage isn't possible.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.09.24 03:43:00 - [105] Originally by: Nyxus Another thing: Let the bombers uncloak, fire, and cloak while the missiles are in the air. It only makes sense to me. Nyxus No. That would be far to powerful when combined with the new lock times. At least before the enemy had ten seconds to jamm you or shoot you out of the sky before you could jamm them back and launch missiles. So excited. That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure.
Vegeir	Posted - 2005.09.24 04:21:00 - [106] For those that argue Bomber with a covert ops module. eh... I think first off the covert ops ship should get the ability to use cargo and ship scanners while cloaked. Only module. Give it a certain defineable role that no other cloaker can provide and that is of immense capabilities.
XeroBeagle	Posted - 2005.09.24 05:15:00 - [107] maybe you could allow the Stealth bomber to use a Cov op cloak because everyone knows these bombers arnt really stealth lol, its like warp in and now cloak, enemy sees you so they warp or get reinforcements
Dellant	Posted - 2005.09.24 06:25:00 - [108] Edited by: Dellant on 24/09/2005 06:27:55 Originally by: Nyxus Let the bombers uncloak, fire, and cloak while the missiles are in the air That's how I see these things should be used. Hit and Run.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.09.24 08:39:00 - [109] The stealth bombers need to be made faster, and they need to be able to warp more than 40 AU on full capacitor. That is probably their biggest weakness atm. Frigate's aren't supposed to be slower than cruisers -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Cowboy Ramrott	Posted - 2005.09.24 08:57:00 - [110] What Stealth Bombers needs : 1. should be able to fit a Covert Opps Cloaking so it can do cloaked warps. 2. cruise missile launcher RoF Bonus or Damage Bonus 3. the locking malus should be removed (already in progress) thats it when it can do cloaked warps its so much more worth than atm or just without the locking malus. Im sure that was the previous plan
jarack	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:02:00 - [111] have a 5th turret slot on zealot
Iota Mordu	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:06:00 - [112] Originally by: CCP Hammer Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? 1) No scan resolution penalty 2) A bit longer lock range
Amarr Traders	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:15:00 - [113] As long as it does not create uber-gank-bombers then it's cool. Though why not introduce a new skill/module to decrease this time further instead?
MOS DEF	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:23:00 - [114] Thank you CCP! /me runs off to switch skill
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:25:00 - [115] Great news! I have one small balancing suggestion to make the Manticore less uber in comparison to the other stealth bombers. Increase the damage bonus on the Hound, Nemesis and Purifier to 10% per level instead of 5%. Very cheap and simple solution that still keeps the Missile race's stealth bomber ahead in damage without gimping the others.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:28:00 - [116] Right, well, here's my point of view. And once again, i fly all of these. I've tried all of them, in several setups, from tanking to ganking to EW. First of all, youve got to set a role for them. I envisioned them as frigates that do f-ckall damage against frigates, but would be good against Battleships, and to some extend Cruisers. Using their Stealth to get under the optimals of those ships. Current Bombers are solely anti-frigate. Which is fun, but it leaves a problem. They need to kill their target in a single volley. They simply have no way of tanking whatever they're shooting for the ~20 seconds it takes them to fire another volley. And one-volleying Frigates, especially from 100+km, makes them overpowered. So basicly that gives you a dillema. They're either overpowered and usefull, or underpowered and useless in their current form. Solutions: A) Give them more tanking ability, similar to the AFs. B) Make them purely anti-battleship, using Torpedoes. Also, what could be done to make the difference slightly smaller between the Manticore and the other three: Give the other three a damage bonus, and take the Manticore's away. Itll still have the third launcher, but the damage bonus somewhat makes up for it
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.24 09:45:00 - [117] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 24/09/2005 09:46:24 I believe Hammer said they would rather make small changes to these ships. Suddenly making them torpedo boats would require massive rebalancing. Personally, I'd rather have them fire cruise anyway. 506 damage is still nice
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.09.24 10:50:00 - [118] Pardon my ignorance if they were already removed but ... Will the "hidden" bonuses to the cruise missiles signature resolution be staying along with the removal of the targeting penaltys ? Seems to me a stealth bomber uncloaking 5km or so from another frigate/elite frigate, locking in a second or two then unleashing almost all of 1500 damage would be rather ... nasty, you might even say an "I win" button . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.09.24 10:53:00 - [119] Stealth bomber problems (in order): 1. Targeting timer delay and module activation delay (addressed by CCP) 2. Tissue paper shields/armor (covert ops has more) 3. Capacitor that is very small for a ship of it's size, moving across a sector of any size requires repeated jumps. Especially annoying for me as one sector I move across very frequently is about 200 AU long. 4. Grid changes to missile launchers have made these ships very hard to fit 5. Caldari manticore is clearly better than all the rest of them. Question - why do all stealth bombers need to have the exact same slot layout? Bonuses need to be rethought on the other ones 6. Painfully slow. When cloaked moves just as slow. It would be very nice if when it was cloaked it would move faster, say 400 m/sec w/ max skills.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:06:00 - [120] Actually, with the best cloak and top skills I think they should be about 25% faster or more. -- Give Stealth Bombers an anti-battleship role! Give them torpedoes instead of cruise missiles!
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:10:00 - [121] Stealth bombers definitely need to be nerfed against frigates with this change. IMO. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Slater Dogstar	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:10:00 - [122] Originally by: The Enslaver The stealth bombers need to be made faster, and they need to be able to warp more than 40 AU on full capacitor. That is probably their biggest weakness atm. Frigate's aren't supposed to be slower than cruisers They are if they are carrying big bombs. Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!!
Zac Solo	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:15:00 - [123] the time to warp is incrediablly slow :(it is a frig and should go to warp like one not like a cruiser:(
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:16:00 - [124] Please let them warp while cloaked. Give them ability to use covert ops cloak
Forsch	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:20:00 - [125] Originally by: Jon Xylur Please let them warp while cloaked. Give them ability to use covert ops cloak What are CovertOps better at then? The Auctoritan Syndicate Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.09.24 11:24:00 - [126] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Jon Xylur Please let them warp while cloaked. Give them ability to use covert ops cloak What are CovertOps better at then? Scan probes. You try fitting a stealth bomber out with a scan probe launcher whilst it has a cloak fitted -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.09.24 13:22:00 - [127] Ahem......almost forgot..... MAKE ACTIVELY CLOAKED PILOTS DISAPEAR FROM LOCAL That will help covert ops pilots as well. Nyxus
Arte	Posted - 2005.09.24 13:35:00 - [128] It's better to say this Quote: We want to remove the 'sensor recalibration time' and the 'scan resolution' penalty to be removed from any ships that fall under the covert ops bracket. This should include the traditional scouting covert-ops ships as well. Also, in reply to some of the other posts, I really do think that allowing covert-ops cloaks to be fitted to Stealth bombers would over power them as they are at the moment as this would negate the use of covert-ops ships with the exception of scanning using probes. This is a very restricted use of a branch of ships and has suspect mechanics as it it (2D scanning etc). This should only be ever taken up if there is a major re-working of the covert-ops ship themselves and that is unlikely seeing as they work just fine as they are now.
Remedial	Posted - 2005.09.24 14:40:00 - [129] Does this mean people in empire can fire 3x cruises and then cloak before Concord arrives?
Sorja	Posted - 2005.09.24 15:01:00 - [130] The Manticore is plagued with the same problem as many Caldari ships: worthless in fleets because of too short warp ranges. A small cap battery II is mandatory on the Manticore, which cripples the ship fitting. The ship sould definately be lighter, or have bigger cap, or have a reduced warp cap need or something. Since Tuxford is troll... er... lurking in here, this holds true for the Kestrel, Griffin, Condor, Buzzard (on the top of my mind) and make those ships major annoyances for travel. Last but not least (but I fear you won't do anything about it), those ships are too expensive and the cloaking device II is too expensive too. The stealth bombers require brass balls to engage in combat (since you have to wait until too late to know if your target will suffer from missiles or not) and such high prices detract from the fun. Kill mails
Locke Ateid	Posted - 2005.09.24 15:16:00 - [131] Originally by: Sorja Last but not least (but I fear you won't do anything about it), those ships are too expensive and the cloaking device II is too expensive too. The stealth bombers require brass balls to engage in combat (since you have to wait until too late to know if your target will suffer from missiles or not) and such high prices detract from the fun. I don't know where you're shopping for your goods, but I can get a Hound and completely fit it out for less than 12m isk. Thats cheap for a T2 ship.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.09.24 15:45:00 - [132] To balance it I think if the ship can use covert ops cloak then the anti cloak Smart bomb needs to be introduced. And it needs to be *****ble on an interceptor or other light frigate as a 50km range (if I recall) would need some traveling speed to sweep an area. Though I honestly think they don't need the covert ops cloaking device. What they should get if they don't gain the cloaking device is the abiilty to cloak and not lose missiles. Your enemy could easily draw in a ranged weapons platform to your location and suppress any easy decloak and warps while a frigate sweeps with the cloak smartbomb. And getting the jump on people is hard enough when you warp in visible, so it requires sittign and waiting or setting up tactics. This is a great enough penalty to counter cloaking after missile launch. Cap should be increased for certain or give them another bonus to cap consumption rate for warp if you want to keep it at small capacitor. But at least then you can warp around with them. No one likes flying ships like mining barges with no cap for warping. If you want to balance htem a lil closer give the Manticore 4 slots capable for launchers and the necessary fitting and the others 3. Now it'll be 33% better instead of 50%
Veskrashen	Posted - 2005.09.24 15:46:00 - [133] Oh, YES! But, please - if you could do SOMETHING so they don't have such ridiculously pitiful warp ranges, I'd really really really appreciate it. As it is, it's painful to move around long distances, and hard to keep up with a fleet of any kind. Maybe give it some modifier to bring it more in line with assault frigs, for example? I know it's mass related, and that Stealth Bombers are heavy so they can't move fast with speed mods, but c'mon now... 50au warp range on a good day?
Dryxonedes Sae	Posted - 2005.09.24 16:00:00 - [134] On the idea of other racial bombers fitting racial weapons, would be interesting i'm sure, but would then relegate the manticore fare beyond the back of the class Ok, so say all 4 have 3 cruise slots, would it maybe be acceptable for the manticore to get a RoF bonus? Meaning that every race could 1 volley frigs as a manticore does now, but if something required a sustained bombardment, then the missile race would come out ahead on dps? Would seem reasonable enough to me... Also kill off the racial damage bonus for all, make it 5% damage across the board, else the minmatar/ammar would be far more effective (EM/Expl).
Veskrashen	Posted - 2005.09.24 16:01:00 - [135] Originally by: Brute Helmet Increase the damage bonus on the Hound, Nemesis and Purifier to 10% per level instead of 5%. Very cheap and simple solution that still keeps the Missile race's stealth bomber ahead in damage without gimping the others. Manticore is sort of a one-trick pony among SBs, due to the tighter overall fitting requirements. The Hound for instance is much more verastile, and I would be far more comfortable flying it in close against inties and AFs than I would a Manticore. Also, the other SBs can actually manage to fit BCUs to increase damage and still maintain a good mid-slot layout, whereas the Manticore generally would not have the CPU left at all. So, Hound with 3x BCUs puts out about the same DPS as a Manticore (20% faster ROF, 20% better damage) using non-racial missile types. It falls behind when using Kinetic, and excels when using Explosive. You'd have to use a Proto Cloak vice Imp Cloak II, of course but it's not hard to do at all.
Veskrashen	Posted - 2005.09.24 16:04:00 - [136] Originally by: Kai Lae Stealth bomber problems (in order): 6. Painfully slow. When cloaked moves just as slow. It would be very nice if when it was cloaked it would move faster, say 400 m/sec w/ max skills. Try using an Improved Cloak II instead of a Proto Cloak. With max skills, you move roughly 56% faster cloaked with a Imp Cloak than uncloaked. At CovOps 3, you're moving about 95% of normal. CovOps 4 should be around 125% of normal. Hound with Overdrive II in the lows should hit about 670m/sec while using an Imp Cloak III and CovOps 5.
Skillshot	Posted - 2005.09.24 16:52:00 - [137] let me just say that removing the delays all togeather would to me at least make the covert craft and stealth craft actullay useable ingame as they where intended ie. hit and run and sneak attacks by massive numbers of bombers trying to take out a dreadnaught... woohoo now we can play starwars vs battlestar :D hehe i like the idea
Jet Max	Posted - 2005.09.24 18:08:00 - [138] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Seems to me a stealth bomber uncloaking 5km or so from another frigate/elite frigate, locking in a second or two then unleashing almost all of 1500 damage would be rather ... nasty, you might even say an "I win" button No it wont be "I WIN" button, someone already said that bombers have rolled tissue arrmor and to reduce bombers cruise missile dmg to 5 dmg per shot, all you need is fly away from incoming missiles, no dont MWD or AB just simply fly away.
Justin Cody	Posted - 2005.09.24 18:08:00 - [139] Originally by: RedClaws Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. I don't find it odd at all that the manticore has an extra missile point because of this. Oh please...You want caldari to be 50% more effective no...it makes sense..quit being jealous whiner. I don't even fly one, but I would like to, and giving em all 3 missile slots would be like giving the manticore 3 turret slots to top it off which is dumb. Now...maybe theother races should recieve an increased range or locking bonus...or something (racial damage bonus)...but not a third cruise slot. The Manticore should always be the outright king of the hill for number of missile slots. :-D caldari lub their missiles. Maybe the manticore should be less agile tho and have a bigger sig radius. ;) "Ill armed and half starved, they were still desperate men, to whom danger had lost all fears: for what was death that they should shun it to cling to such a life as theirs?"--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.09.24 18:34:00 - [140] Powergrid of the cruise launchers needs looking into. Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
mirel yirrin	Posted - 2005.09.24 19:00:00 - [141] Originally by: Locke Ateid Originally by: Sorja Last but not least (but I fear you won't do anything about it), those ships are too expensive and the cloaking device II is too expensive too. The stealth bombers require brass balls to engage in combat (since you have to wait until too late to know if your target will suffer from missiles or not) and such high prices detract from the fun. I don't know where you're shopping for your goods, but I can get a Hound and completely fit it out for less than 12m isk. Thats cheap for a T2 ship. mmmmm...I just got a Nemi and a manticore for 10mil....sexeh :D --------------------------------- KORKY Is Recruiting now! Convo me for More Details.
Dreez	Posted - 2005.09.24 19:51:00 - [142] Great. Cant wait untill you say: We¦re removing the bad damage and tracking on blasters and giving them good damage and tracking . Miracles do happen.. I might have ATUK in my tag, but i have OC in my DNA
ESF Hyperion	Posted - 2005.09.24 20:00:00 - [143] apologies if this has already been mentioned, and its been a while since i flew my hound, btu if you want to look at something else CCP then perhaps the missiles vanishing in space once you cloak after firing might be a good idea.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.09.24 20:15:00 - [144] One more issue that handicaps these ships: A combat ship cannot use a module that costs the same amount, or more, than the ship itself. This is the current situation with the improved cloaking device (if you buy them off the open market at about 11m each). If CCP wants these ships to become used widely they will have to either reduce the build cost of the cloak by adjusting the materials needed, increase the amount of supply by handing out more BPO, or both (preferred). Reason increasing the supply is important is that currently stealths aren't that popular, so there's not that much demand. If the changes make them viable then demand will rocket upwards and so will the cloak price, which already costs as much as the ship in most cases. CCP should think ahead and take action with regard to the cloaking devices at the same time as it makes the ship changes.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.09.24 20:37:00 - [145] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 24/09/2005 20:38:01 Originally by: Jet Max Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Seems to me a stealth bomber uncloaking 5km or so from another frigate/elite frigate, locking in a second or two then unleashing almost all of 1500 damage would be rather ... nasty, you might even say an "I win" button No it wont be "I WIN" button, someone already said that bombers have rolled tissue arrmor and to reduce bombers cruise missile dmg to 5 dmg per shot, all you need is fly away from incoming missiles, no dont MWD or AB just simply fly away. You need to fly faster than the explosion velocity before it reduces damage at all, currently that is 500m/s before skill bonuses are applied to it, any ship in the game that hasn't filled its low slots with overdrives will need to activate an afterburner to get any damage reduction. The "Hidden bonus" as listed in the part of my post you chose not to quote, gives cruise missiles fired from an stealth bomber an explosion radius of around 50m, which means most frigates take the majority of the missiles damage from that part of the calculation. Edit add : and destroyers and bigger take 100% . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Eliadur	Posted - 2005.09.24 21:06:00 - [146] I love you. No targeting delay alone is AWSEM plus you can reclaok ASAP, evan more awseme -Eli ---------- I think therefore I am.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.24 21:32:00 - [147] Originally by: Stan D'marco Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Becuase it just encourages MORE ganking? Given the explosion radius bonus, it's an insta-win button against T1 frigs. It's a bad idea. A bomber should be good against BIG ships, not small ones as this change makes them. Do they not let you use afterburners or mwd at DIE? =) (Old corp buddy to old corp buddy joke) When you get up to speed the cruise still won't hurt you. And this leads us into the useless turret slots. Frig + Bomber + close range = very dead bomber. Even by the time you locked, webbed, fired and are waiting for the next volley you are dead. You're right, except. Except, the things are stealthed, and you need several km/s to do any good. Plus, if they basially remove the usefulness of plates (see: mass), then almost any interceptor is a ONE VOLLEY kill. And they're not helpless outside missiles, you realise... (except the Manticore) I'm mostly agreeing with Elve Sorrow on roles here. Not necessarily full-up torpedos, but say...Lances, a sort of mini-torpedo. Look, if you change this, I will JUMP in one and start killing. But I think it'll be overpowered. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Darth Revanant	Posted - 2005.09.24 23:22:00 - [148] Someone suggested using Burst ECM. That's what I tried as soon as I got my bomber as a great defence: Burst -> cloak. But it doesn't work because ECM Burst takes the entire capacitor of the ship (and that's amarr, so the other 3 are probably worse) and it only does 6 points at 5km, meaning it's not gonna work except on the small t1 frigates. The cap size on the purifier is pretty good as far as I've tested, but the recharge rate is horrible. Can't do much about it since I have to put a co-proc and a MAPC in the lows.
Jet Max	Posted - 2005.09.24 23:48:00 - [149] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm You need to fly faster than the explosion velocity before it reduces damage at all, currently that is 500m/s before skill bonuses are applied to it, any ship in the game that hasn't filled its low slots with overdrives will need to activate an afterburner to get any damage reduction. The "Hidden bonus" as listed in the part of my post you chose not to quote, gives cruise missiles fired from an stealth bomber an explosion radius of around 50m, which means most frigates take the majority of the missiles damage from that part of the calculation. Edit add : and destroyers and bigger take 100% Well then i dont know whats not working, but after flying my Nemesis alot and doing 5 dmg to Crow, Taranis and Incursus [being specific] while they not reached 500km/s makes me think that something bugged then, no? or overview is showing incorrect ship velocity?
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.09.24 23:54:00 - [150] I was hitting Interceptors for 320 in my Hound no problem. And i got zero missile skills whatsoever.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.09.24 23:54:00 - [151] Originally by: Jet Max Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm You need to fly faster than the explosion velocity before it reduces damage at all, currently that is 500m/s before skill bonuses are applied to it, any ship in the game that hasn't filled its low slots with overdrives will need to activate an afterburner to get any damage reduction. The "Hidden bonus" as listed in the part of my post you chose not to quote, gives cruise missiles fired from an stealth bomber an explosion radius of around 50m, which means most frigates take the majority of the missiles damage from that part of the calculation. Edit add : and destroyers and bigger take 100% Well then i dont know whats not working, but after flying my Nemesis alot and doing 5 dmg to Crow, Taranis and Incursus [being specific] while they not reached 500km/s makes me think that something bugged then, no? or overview is showing incorrect ship velocity? if they were traveling less than 500 m/s then presumably the hidden bonus were removed, Although I've not seen anyone on the forums complaining about it as I would have expected .. unless Only certain bombers ever had it .. its a confusing topic because such bonus was never listed anywhere officially - they just had it. If you still have the nemesis then have a look at the stats of the missiles when fitted in the launchers and find out what the explosion velocity is. I might go and buy a hound/nemesis just to try it myself . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.25 01:26:00 - [152] Originally by: Elve Sorrow I was hitting Interceptors for 320 in my Hound no problem. And i got zero missile skills whatsoever. Had you webbed them? The bonus is good enough to take out an interceptor if it is webbed or otherwise moving slower than something like 3km/s. If not, 320 sounds like a bug.
Bella Fada	Posted - 2005.09.25 02:19:00 - [153] With these changes you could Decloak t range, use sensore dampners and FIRE!, then recloak right away (after missles hit) since the enemy cant target you. DOne properly and in small groupes itd be quite effective. Personal I think its the lack of recloaking time thats the best part.
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.09.25 03:43:00 - [154] I think.. that being able to cloak while locked would make stealth bombers really fun to play! _______________________________________________
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.09.25 09:14:00 - [155] Got a hound and went after npc frigates, didn't appear to have any trouble at all dealing damage with cruise missiles like so : 2005.09.25 06:46:42combatYour Devastator Cruise Missile I hits Gistii Ruffian, doing 334.0 damage. That was all the HP it had left (explosive missiles with the ships damage bonus, first cruise does 167 or so vs the shields with there 60% resists, second shot hits like that and finishes it) So I would think we can say the hound certainly still has the explosion radius bonus, though the missiles don't show the radius when fitted, so its hard to tell exactly how good it is. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.09.25 09:27:00 - [156] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 25/09/2005 09:29:37 Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm So I would think we can say the hound certainly still has the explosion radius bonus, though the missiles don't show the radius when fitted, so its hard to tell exactly how good it is. Can you try this: Fit the Hound, fit missiles, undock. Rightclick, Show Info on your own ship, then go to the tab 'Modules'. Go down the list, and Show Info on the loaded missile. Id do it myself but im about 50 jumps away from my Hound atm. That should give you the missile stats with skills included. Also, i didnt have a webber on. I may or may not have made a mistake though. There was 2 engagements close after oneanother, one vs a Harpy, one vs a Crusader. I took the Crusader into 2/3 armor using 1 Paradise, 1 Devastator, and took the entire Harpy's shield with 1 volley of 2 Paradise. One of those 4 hits was a Paradise doing 320 damage. Rough numbers seem to indicate the Harpy. Ill look through my logs and check the exact damage. EDIT: Typos
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.09.25 10:02:00 - [157] Tried that myself, its the same as every other method of getting the fitted module stats - they all update to take into account my (poor) missile skills, but for some reason the explosion radius stat has gone AWOL from the list. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.25 10:42:00 - [158] Originally by: Darth Revanant Someone suggested using Burst ECM. That's what I tried as soon as I got my bomber as a great defence: Burst -> cloak. But it doesn't work because ECM Burst takes the entire capacitor of the ship (and that's amarr, so the other 3 are probably worse) and it only does 6 points at 5km, meaning it's not gonna work except on the small t1 frigates. The cap size on the purifier is pretty good as far as I've tested, but the recharge rate is horrible. Can't do much about it since I have to put a co-proc and a MAPC in the lows. Hmm. T2 burst (if it exists on market) does 7.2 to all races, same as a single racial T2 jammer. As to recharge, ok, that probably is gonna be a *****. That said, if you've just dropped in and unlocked an tight bunch of enemy BS, you've probably got time to warp out again...
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2005.09.25 12:05:00 - [159] hmmm.. right.. i just hope you will add something to counter cloak if you make the delays go away! maybe some sort of radar that has 10km radius and detects any cloaked units within the sphere? "We brake for nobody"
Taran Blake	Posted - 2005.09.25 12:08:00 - [160] I don't know if anybody has brought this up or not, but the Stealth Bombers are way too massive. They are clumsy and extremely slow to realign for warp. Reducing their mass down to something closer to the T1 frigates they are based on might make them more survivable once they have decloaked and shot their load. The other thing i would like to see is being able to use passive targeting systems while cloaked, even if they have to decloak to fire. The missiles have such a long time on target delay that even with a passive lock on decloak, their target is still going to get a chance to return fire before the missiles hit.
Wootang	Posted - 2005.09.25 12:17:00 - [161] dunno if it was already mentioned but i think the bombers are more like a cruiser with the HP of a frigate! for example the AB/MWD boost for the 1mn ones does not really work on them(i think because they weigh too much); same with the agility! please dont get me wrong i dont want them to become a interceptor but i think it would be fair to say they are frigates so they should be able to get the full boost of the frigate modules. and this is just an idea but as they are in the category "covert ops" on the market would it be possible to give them the ability to fit the covert ops cloaking devices BUT just remove the "warp while cloaked" ability from them! they will still have a few seconds left till their sensors are back but it will still be much less than it currently is. please tell me what you think of my ideas... i am open for criticism
Arbet Klallam	Posted - 2005.09.25 12:34:00 - [162] I'm all for 3 cruise launchers for all of the SBs
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.25 12:56:00 - [163] I'm not. I'm for removing that from the manticore, and giving it a 7.5% per lvl damage bonus to the other ships 5%. So a blatent, but small, bonus over the other bombers. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Ainsy	Posted - 2005.09.25 13:02:00 - [164] The wierdest thing I can see about the Manticore (havent checked the others) is the fact that it actually has an even bigger sensor radius than a regular kestrel hull. Surely this is counter intuitive, sensor radius represents how visible a ship is to enemy sensors and affects lock-on time and turret/misile damage etc. surely these 'stealth' ships should have a smaller sensor radius then their non-covert counterparts. I agree with the module/targetting delay removals though, it should end the days of SB pilot: "Boo! I de-cloaked, catching you by complete surprise!" Enemy Pilot: "True, but you must now sit there unable to target me or re-cloak for the next 30 seconds; Thus rendering your element of surprise both pointless and useless" SB Pilot: "darn"
Gan Ning	Posted - 2005.09.25 13:08:00 - [165] CCP HAMMERTIME! Good job, well done this is the perfect example of how to make a redundant class usuable again, kudos
captian jackharkness	Posted - 2005.09.25 13:22:00 - [166] Great news on the proposed changes I'll have to buy a manticore before the prices go up I think alot of people have gotten carried away with this thread. Instead of giving there opinion on which of the 3 options Hammer gave, most people have went off and gave there wish list. Hammer i think you should remove the targetting delay timer and mosule activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Perhaps people should think before posting, 1) Giving a Stealth Bomber HAC or AF level resistances is just stupid. It's meant to be weak and vunerable, thats why it needs a cloak. 2) Allowing the Stealth Bombers to use improved covert ops cloaks defeats the purpose of the Covert ops scout frigates. 3) The manticore should have an extra Missle hard point because Caldari are missle users. Only other Stealth bomber which should get an extra cruise launcher should be the Minmitar one, they are underpowered for most of there ships.
munkehdotnet	Posted - 2005.09.25 14:53:00 - [167] <3 CO cloak would be nice too + on a purifier lasers cant hit as far as the cruise missiles =[ so another launcher point would be nice + that little extra grid & cpu
Vaevectia	Posted - 2005.09.25 15:59:00 - [168] "Uh yeah, it's okay for Caldari ships to suck from the Condor to the Cerberus, that's alright. You guys are the MISSILE USERS, stop wanting to use clearly superior weaponry like turrets. You specialize in missiles!" Later... "WTF THE CALDARI MISSILE BOAT IS STRONGER THAN ALL THE OTHER MISSILE BOATS! MAKE OURS BETTER!" See the problem?
Wootang	Posted - 2005.09.25 16:45:00 - [169] Edited by: Wootang on 25/09/2005 16:48:06 Edited by: Wootang on 25/09/2005 16:46:46 indeed i think its alright and only fair that the manticore got 1 more launcher slot. the other ones could fit more demage mods or just stop whining because if all other bombers get 3 launchers the amarr one for example will deal in one of their only missile boats more demage than the caldari one because of the extra low slot!!! this would be really really unfair and unbalanced as the caldari ones should have especially in a ship type wich is based on missiles a better ship than all the other races! if you want to balance this 100% give all ships same number of slots and launchers/CPU/PG and only give them different bonuses on the different demage types BUT think a moment about it and decide yourself if this would be fair to the caldari ones... to ccp: if you give the others a 3rd launcher slot i really want you to make it 100% fair and reduce the mass of the manticore(got most mass of all SBs) and increase the max flight speed of the manticore(slowest SB) too. and dont dare to give the hound more flight speed than the manticore because this would be unfair...and all of them should get same HP of corse otherwise it would be unfair.... hahaha ... how ridiulous
Madam Mapper	Posted - 2005.09.25 17:44:00 - [170] The suggestion to give all stealth bombers the same number of cruiser and turret slots sounds most reasonable. Give the Caldari a 5% rate of fire increase per level of covert ops, converting their 50% bonus to a 25% bonus. If stealth bombers could use covert ops cloaking devices that would be splendid. They require covert ops skill for a reason surely? People saying that that would make the Covert Ops Frigate useless are incorrect. Does the existance of the Tempest, with extra potential turret slots and more grid make the Typhoon useless? No, the different ship bonuses mean that a long-range sniper will benefit from the 'phoon, as will a drone-boat. Likewise, the covert ops frigate bonuses to astrometrics make it a functional scout-boat, as does the lesser mass.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.09.25 19:25:00 - [171] I still say this will make them nigh on untouchable in raiding groups. And we defiantely DO NOT need another class that is mainly aimed at anti frigate duties. Any plans to put in a countermeasure to cloaking? Or are we going to have to have 2-3 months of these things ganking at will before something gets done?
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.09.25 19:31:00 - [172] Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson Edited by: Ethan Tomlinson on 23/09/2005 17:26:14 this is great i heart ccp now i can actually use my manti.. now please give eagle a fifth turret slot. I got lvl 5 hac and it cant even do as much dmg as a thorax with gallente cruiser 5 and 250 rails... also fix dps of cerb then i will love u for ever. little more grid too for both so i can fit meh 5th rail Have you even tried to fit 5 250mm rails in a thorax? You'd need something like 3 RCU for them to fit with a med repairer and an AB. You seem to have a hard time understanding that CCP doesn't want long-range ships to have a firepower equivalent to close-range cruisers, and the Eagle and Cerberus ARE long-range ships.
Spikum	Posted - 2005.09.25 21:08:00 - [173] Removing the delay will affect nothing. They remain beeing crap. The cruisemissles they can fire arent enough to kill a frig before it kills it. An you need more than 10 to kill a cruiser and i think normal frigs are much better on this. Let them have a bonus which maes cruisemissles do about 300 Damage on a frig! Then they would be okay
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.25 21:11:00 - [174] Originally by: Spikum Let them have a bonus which maes cruisemissles do about 300 Damage on a frig! Then they would be okay There is a hidden explosion radius bonus that does just that. However, this bonus doesn't work well on interceptors (as it shouldn't) because they are topping 4 km/s. Web them, and then you will get full damage on an interceptor.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.25 21:33:00 - [175] Originally by: Parallax Error I still say this will make them nigh on untouchable in raiding groups. And we defiantely DO NOT need another class that is mainly aimed at anti frigate duties. Any plans to put in a countermeasure to cloaking? Or are we going to have to have 2-3 months of these things ganking at will before something gets done? One guess. Mutter. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
MachZERO	Posted - 2005.09.25 22:02:00 - [176] Originally by: Spikum Removing the delay will affect nothing. They remain beeing crap. The cruisemissles they can fire arent enough to kill a frig before it kills it. An you need more than 10 to kill a cruiser and i think normal frigs are much better on this. Let them have a bonus which maes cruisemissles do about 300 Damage on a frig! Then they would be okay No one said that a single bomber was supposed to be able to easily kill cruisers. And a smart bomber pilot would never engage an AF/interceptor/frigate close range. He/she will just stay cloaked and wait for a better oportunity. A smart bomber pilot will also never engage a battleship at any range without sensor damps. You can score 500+ damage hits to frigates with a bomber. Train the skills and fit damage mods. Love the change. --------------------------------------------- "Rang Rang" ---------------------------------------------
CaptainSeafort	Posted - 2005.09.25 22:24:00 - [177] can i ask that its crusie missile pg bonus or w/e is increased, or its overall pg boosted. i have to fit a rcu just to be able to online both cruise launchers at once. and my skills are in the 3s to 4s in most of that skill section =/ "Planets and moons no longer hitch rides on player ships. Their towel privileges have been revoked." HHGG Lives on in EVE!
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.25 22:45:00 - [178] Originally by: MachZERO And a smart bomber pilot would never engage an AF/interceptor/frigate close range. He/she will just stay cloaked and wait for a better oportunity. No, the really smart bomber pilot will engage an inty or frigate at very close range. Below 10km turret-based frigs/intys are dead meat to an experienced bomber pilot. The only frigates I would not willingly engage are plated Crows and Kestrels. Those are bad news unless you are specifically fitted out to cope with them. The plate nerf will take much of the risk out of this kind of combat.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.25 23:07:00 - [179] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/09/2005 23:13:20 Ahem, plated Claw too :P But yea. Smart pilot will engage up close, and use guns too. Unless they go suicidally slow (plate), they won't survive one volley. If they ARE suicidally slow, they might take several volleys, but they probly have close range guns ("close" for the bomber = 10-20km) and you will be out of range "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Vegeir	Posted - 2005.09.26 00:28:00 - [180] If you take away the recalibration time then what use with Cloaking be? I suggest an idea. Allow a 10% regain of effective distance for the use of scanning modules while cloaked. A 40km Ship scanner would then be useable at 12km with level 3 of cloaking while cloaked. Allowing covert ops to warp in cloaked, approach enemy positions dangerously and then scan their ship capabilities for actual full out intel. Bombers could use it to check their prey's weakness before switching cruise missiles? I always thought covert ops specifically, not necessarily bombers. SHould be able to use ship scanning while cloaked. Probes are nice but you don't always need them. And it's nice to be able to check gates and warp around cloaked as ascout but ship scanners are so rarely used because slots are vital on a combat ship. Otherwise what is the cloaking skill gonna do for us after the changes? As someone debating cloaking 4-5 now I'd like to know :P
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.26 00:36:00 - [181] Originally by: Vegeir Otherwise what is the cloaking skill gonna do for us after the changes? Bombers get their bonuses from the racial frigate skills and from the Covert Ops skill. The Cloaking skill never did too much for bombers in the first place because 10-20 seconds of vulnerability is all an interceptor or anti-frigate ship needs to take one out.
bundy bear	Posted - 2005.09.26 01:00:00 - [182] Stealth bombers should have paperthin defences, i see the stealthbomber as a more offensice ship. It needs to be able to lock straight after decloaking for surprise attacks making a stealthbomber an actual stealth bomber. Turrets and extra high slots are completely useless. The long distance warping needs to be fixed and the ship could have better agility and speed. The gallente minmatar and amarr turret bonuses need to be changed to missile DMG to bring them CLOSER to the manticore. Fitting seems to be a lare problem with these ships because of their pre missile change powergird
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.26 01:13:00 - [183] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/09/2005 23:13:20 Ahem, plated Claw too :P Yes, I should have included the Claw. I've only ever lost two bombers, one of them to your &!@*# Claw But a Claw on its own isn't real threat. Whack it with a tracking disruptor (or two) and the two launchers alone don't have enough firepower to take out a bomber before it gets off a second salvo, particularly if the bomber is using a plate and good named launchers.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.26 01:24:00 - [184] I have a tracking of .5 with my Claw's guns. At close range, a tracking disruptor's NOT gonna stop me. And I only carry 1 launcher. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.26 03:04:00 - [185] The point of the tracking disruptors in this instance is to reduce the optimal range, not tracking speed. A pair of good disruptors will cut the target's optimal to 40% of normal. They're not supposed to be an 'I Win' button, just some extra protection.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.26 03:09:00 - [186] "The point of the tracking disruptors in this instance is to reduce the optimal range, not tracking speed. A pair of good disruptors will cut the target's optimal to 40% of normal." Autocannon optimal is tiny to begin with, halving it doesn't do much if the ship is already in that range -.^
Naal Morno	Posted - 2005.09.26 03:27:00 - [187] I am not sure if anybody mentiond this yet, but this introduces very serious inbalancing factor to these ships. Namely they will be able to sneak to a ship and close to insta lock and warp scramble the victim. Even a ship designed to do exactly this (Covert Ops) can't lock anybody in this fashion. I am not sure how to solve this problem, maybe the solution is to keep targetting delay in same amount as for covert ships and make it dependant on bomber skill.... Your Heavy Neutron Blaster II perfectly strikes Serpentis Chief Sentinel, wrecking for 660.4 damage.
Foulis	Posted - 2005.09.26 03:42:00 - [188] Well, I don't know if you guys have adressed this portion yet, you all posted aloooooot of stuff ^_^;. I don't think that the other races should get an additional launcher hardpoint for one reason. PRICE. Look at the prices of stealth bombers in lonetrek, the manticore is 30 mill, all other bombers are 10 mill. The manticore may have 50% more firepower but it's 300% more expensive! Think about it.
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2005.09.26 04:46:00 - [189] Edited by: Herko Kerghans on 26/09/2005 04:49:04 Originally by: CCP Hammer We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. OMGOMGOMG YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! Quote: Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? Ok: -I believe the CovOp should be the "Ultimate Ship With a Cloaking Module". In that line, could CovOps gain the same feature? And perhaps gain a speed bonus too? (and no, Bombers should not be able to fit the Covert Ops module) -Manticore needs a bit of love when warping; the 50ish AU range with good skills suckS. Until the joyous day that we see instas gone, warping = travel speed and manticores get left behind. -Maybe allow changing ammo while cloaked? (for all ships?). Not a gamebreaker I think, and it adds a little bonus to be able to choose your missile type before engageing. -Last but not least, YEEEHHAAA!!! - By my third bottle and feeling already slightly vertically challenged...
Minuz1	Posted - 2005.09.26 05:48:00 - [190] I'm no genius on the cov ops ships, but after using the standard modules on various crafts I think there should be a tad bit more possible to do with the cov ops. How about making the stealth bombers able to cloak while being targetted? Can't do that with the normal ones atleast. This would allow the bombers to blink while attacking.. making it pretty darn hard to get a shot at them. But while cloaked they'd slow down(like real stealth bombers can't go supersonic while flying stealthly). Btw please hurry up with the decision...I have an offer from a agent with a SB BPO that needs a yay or nay. -Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win, you are still a retard
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.26 06:04:00 - [191] Originally by: j0sephine Autocannon optimal is tiny to begin with, halving it doesn't do much if the ship is already in that range -.^ Agreed, but even if it shaves 1000m off the effective range that's still a help. We're hi-jacking this thread so I'm going to stop here. Don't know why I'm defending this setup anyway, I only mentioned it because I needed to write something and didn't fancy giving away the setup I actually use in combat
Altaireus	Posted - 2005.09.26 06:26:00 - [192] Originally by: Foulis Well, I don't know if you guys have adressed this portion yet, you all posted aloooooot of stuff ^_^;. I don't think that the other races should get an additional launcher hardpoint for one reason. PRICE. Look at the prices of stealth bombers in lonetrek, the manticore is 30 mill, all other bombers are 10 mill. The manticore may have 50% more firepower but it's 300% more expensive! Think about it. i thought about it, and you didnt consider that the higher price is caused by higher demand beacuse of that extra launcher slot?
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.26 09:15:00 - [193] Originally by: bundy bear Stealth bombers should have paperthin defences, i see the stealthbomber as a more offensice ship. It needs to be able to lock straight after decloaking for surprise attacks making a stealthbomber an actual stealth bomber. Turrets and extra high slots are completely useless. The long distance warping needs to be fixed and the ship could have better agility and speed. The gallente minmatar and amarr turret bonuses need to be changed to missile DMG to bring them CLOSER to the manticore. Fitting seems to be a lare problem with these ships because of their pre missile change powergird They already have paperthin defences and no real ability to tank. The turrets are a token defence, useful possibly when the **** hits the fan or if you manage to jam your opponent at close range. The Hound, Manticore, Purifier and Nemesis have a 5% per level of covert ops skill bonus to cruise missile damage. There are two things that can be done to make the stealth bombers a bit more balanced: 1. Add a third launcher to the non-caldari ones, or adjust the damage bonuses to compensate for the third launcher. 2. Boost capacitor by 10-15% and reduce mass by 20%
Ante	Posted - 2005.09.26 10:01:00 - [194] Originally by: Brute Helmet 1. Add a third launcher to the non-caldari ones, or adjust the damage bonuses to compensate for the third launcher. Why do people insist on getting rid of differences between ships? The Manticore is fine. Not all ships are born equal, case in point Zealot compared to Deimos. Should the Zealot be given a 5th turret? No. 4 turrets makes the Zealot unique and a lot of people like it fine the way it is. Originally by: Brute Helmet 2. Boost capacitor by 10-15% and reduce mass by 20% Why? They're big and slow because they're carrying battleship weapons and should remain slower because of it. For those that still don't get it: the Manticore is hell to fit with 3 launchers. It's slower, has less health, is bigger, has a smaller cargobay than any other bomber (despite the Kestrel having the largest cargobay for any frig), has the least grid output (makes fitting launchers just that much more frustrating) and warps the shortest distance. Here's an equation for those that only understand maths. Purifier = 1.5x Manticore grid. Manticore = 1.5x Purifier high slots. If you're calling for an extra high slot for all other stealth bombers, then give the Manticore 15 extra grid to put it in line with the Purifier and give it an extra low slot so that it can fit 3x damage mods just like the Purifier. I guarantee you the Manticore would benefit more from this change than the Purifier.
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.09.26 11:32:00 - [195] If a manticore can sneak up cloaked to an ceptor, decloak, lock and kill it in a like 3 seconds, it sounds terrible unbalanced. There is no defence against that. It would even work against a ceptor with an mwd, if he is killng NPCs. It seems CCP needs to rethink this a little more, since just removing te delay would clearly not work.
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.26 11:45:00 - [196] Originally by: Ante Edited by: Ante on 26/09/2005 10:18:16 Edited by: Ante on 26/09/2005 10:15:12 Originally by: Brute Helmet 1. Add a third launcher to the non-caldari ones, or adjust the damage bonuses to compensate for the third launcher. Why do people insist on getting rid of differences between ships? The Manticore is fine. Not all ships are born equal, case in point Zealot compared to Deimos. Should the Zealot be given a 5th turret? No. 4 turrets makes the Zealot unique and a lot of people like it fine the way it is. Originally by: Brute Helmet 2. Boost capacitor by 10-15% and reduce mass by 20% Why? They're big and slow because they're carrying battleship weapons and should remain slower because of it. For those that still don't get it: the Manticore is hell to fit with 3 launchers. It's slower, has less health, is heavier, has a smaller cargobay than any other bomber (despite the Kestrel having the largest cargobay for any frig), has the least grid output (makes fitting launchers just that much more frustrating) and warps the shortest distance. Here's an equation for those that only understand maths. Purifier = 1.5x Manticore grid. Manticore = 1.5x Purifier high slots. If you're calling for an extra high slot for all other stealth bombers, then give the Manticore 15 extra grid to put it in line with the Purifier and give it an extra low slot so that it can fit 3x damage mods just like the Purifier. I guarantee you the Manticore would benefit more from this change than the Purifier. EDIT: Manticore also has 75% the scanning res of the hound. It targets the slowest too. EDIT 2: Manticore also has largest sid radius. Manticore also has 150% the firepower of all other stealthbombers, dont forget that The difference between 3 cruise per salvo and 2 cruise per salvo is quite high, isnt it ? The mass reduction is needed since the Hound and Purifier both handle more like heavy cruisers than frigates. I havent flown the Manticore or Nemesis so I cant speak as to how those handle.
captian jackharkness	Posted - 2005.09.26 12:21:00 - [197] From reading all this thread i think ive got the gist of what people want. Covert ops ships to be faster, HAC resistance, all the same no matter what race, to lock faster, lower sig radius, more offensive capabilites to all types of ship. Sounds to me like people arent thinking balancing just an I WIN ship.
IVillDrinkYourBlood	Posted - 2005.09.26 12:35:00 - [198] Edited by: IVillDrinkYourBlood on 26/09/2005 12:38:03 I think stealth bombers should have cruise missiles completely removed. 2 of them don't have enough power to kill battleships and they dont do enough damage to frigates. They will be utterly pointless, whatever you do. What i think is this: Covert Ops Ships should be halfway between and inty and a t1 frigate, but should have cloaking. They should be fast, around 600m/s (no-one wants to wait ages for covert ops to get in position for warp in). They should also have plenty of cpu for scan probe launchers. Stealth bombers should be halfway between an af and t1 frigate. They should have standard resistances, and a very low decloaked speed (but high cloaked speed), but should have high damgage bonuses, and no decloak penalties. They should be used for sneaking up on mining ops and letting loose on them, being able to tank drones, but not much else. They should have low cpu, knowwhere near enough to fit a scan probe launcher and cloak.
M0535	Posted - 2005.09.26 12:38:00 - [199] Dunno if anyone has said this - as I'm too lazy to read the whole thread - but how about allowing the cov ops t2 cloak, so they can warp cloaked.
Ante	Posted - 2005.09.26 12:50:00 - [200] Edited by: Ante on 26/09/2005 12:51:26 Originally by: Brute Helmet Manticore also has 150% the firepower of all other stealthbombers, dont forget that The difference between 3 cruise per salvo and 2 cruise per salvo is quite high, isnt it ? The mass reduction is needed since the Hound and Purifier both handle more like heavy cruisers than frigates. I havent flown the Manticore or Nemesis so I cant speak as to how those handle. Did you even read what I typed? You still seem to be hooked onto the idea that firepower > all. They are supposed to handle poorly. They're bombers. They're heavy. They're big. They carry bloody huge missiles and you expect it to handle like a normal frigate. Go try and fit a Manticore with three cruise missile launchers + whatever you fit on your Hound or Purifier then come back and tell us all that the extra launcher makes it this magical ship that wtfpwns all. EDIT: Slight change.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.09.26 13:52:00 - [201] Originally by: captian jackharkness From reading all this thread i think ive got the gist of what people want. Covert ops ships to be faster, HAC resistance, all the same no matter what race, to lock faster, lower sig radius, more offensive capabilites to all types of ship. Sounds to me like people arent thinking balancing just an I WIN ship. Only the dumb ones. CCP needs to do what they have said they will do, while addressing the fact that that the grid changes on launchers have made it necessary to rethink the grid on these ships. Also the capacitor on these ships is super low, they warp slow for a ship of their size, and have paper tissue everything - less than a covert ops ship. I can understand the last perhaps if the cloak proves to be an effective combat tool but the other 2 don't make much sense.
Avon	Posted - 2005.09.26 14:36:00 - [202] My experience with the Manticore (I can fly them all, but cruise kessy for the memories!) Fittings - fine. No need to tweak CPU or grid. Fitted: 3x malkuth cruise. 1x Dread guristas cloak 1x sensor booster (f90) 1x passive targeter 2x damps (indirect) 1x BCU 1x Overdrive This is my basic loadout, and all fits fine with my skills. What got nerfed that I miss? Missiles still hitting your target when you cloak. What I would like: Reduced targeting and re-cloaking delays. Stealth coating. Working like a 'built in' 25% sensor dampner. Any ship which tries to lock gets a 25% penalty to sensor resolution and targeting range. What I would not like: The abilty to warp cloaked (well, I would like it, but it isn't good for balance imho) ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Vincent Codiaque	Posted - 2005.09.26 15:01:00 - [203] I like every sugestion, as long as the targetting delay will be removed. I dont think that these ships are overpowered with this change. A lot of ships will survive the first volley and then the SB is in trouble and frigs are often fast enough to escape before the first volley hits. In my opinion a Grid/CPU boost is not neccesary. This is not the first ship wich need named modules to fit the largest weapons. A small Cap boost would be welcome. By the way, could we get a hind on the timeframe for the next patch (Pls a little more precise than "soon") Greetings Vincent Codiaque Advertisement : If someone would like to buy a Manticore, pls contact me
Wootang	Posted - 2005.09.26 15:26:00 - [204] their name is stealth bomber and they are covert ops ships(if they wont be able to fit covert ops cloak plz ccp make a own category for them on market because its quite confusing!!!) ok i got an idea: on eve-i.com ive seen "stealth devices" wich reduce your sig radius (opposite of target painters). what would be about the idea of giving those items a chance ingame and give the "stealth" bombers the ability to use those ones instead of cloaking devices there could be different ones for all ship types and a special one for the stealth ships wich some special abilitys just like the covert ops cloaking good thing about this one is that you can still see them on your overview so everyone is warned that they are here but it makes them hard to lock/kill... think about it
Barak Gideon	Posted - 2005.09.26 15:47:00 - [205] I'm quite pleased about the Manticore having an extra slot, not cos i'm Caldari, but cos' it seems CCP is designing ships which are more diverse.
Mujun Kross	Posted - 2005.09.26 15:55:00 - [206] all of these changes sound cool and all but they dont mean jack if the msls dont hit the target after the sb has cloaked. Cruise msls need to be changed back to the way they were were they would still hit the target after the SB was cloaked. currently they do not so being able to uncloak, lock and shoot as fast as you can means nothing if you have to wait for the msl to hit the target first. and by that time you have been locked so you cant recloak (another advantage that is being offered is rapid recloak) anyways so its time to warp out. . . . "Come now, my child, if we were planning to harm you, do you think we'd be lurking here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?" -Kenneth Patchen "But Even So"
slip66	Posted - 2005.09.26 16:05:00 - [207] Originally by: Tuxford OMG why can't I ever deliver the good news lol, you got the short straw
Thanos Firebringer	Posted - 2005.09.26 17:12:00 - [208] There people go, wanting to ruin the game again. Hey here's an idea, lets not make everything the same so you have options in what to fly. Or how about just doing away with all the races and making just 1 ship type so all the people and want equality will stop crying. Then we won't have to hear about some ships being different then a similar ship of a different race. I mean seriously, WHY DO YOU WANT THEM ALL THE SAME???? If you like the 3 launchers that much, TRAIN CALDARI FRIGATE 5 AND QUIT CRYING. Nuff said.
Rob Boberton	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:01:00 - [209] I think it's silly to give all of the ships 3 slots. If you want 3 cruise slots train caldari frig now and you'll be done before next patch most likely. Complaining that everyone will just fly manticore isn't a really valid point either since everyone flying a different looking, differently named manticore is no more "diverse" than everyone flying an actual caldari stealth bomber. Let's leave the other 3 bombers as cheap alternatives till someone figures out how to exploit their individual advantages and manticore specialists can whine about how the hound, nemesis, or purifier needs nerfing to be brought back in line and we'll laugh at them.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:04:00 - [210] NERF SHAM!!1111!! i mean,.. Add...when cloaked Max target's = 1 targeting range x0.25 or so this would let you target and cargo/ship scan 1 target and even declock and show em how imba your nafty lil shiup is now
Centuri	Posted - 2005.09.26 21:50:00 - [211] Edited by: Centuri on 26/09/2005 21:51:05 The manticore's 3rd launcher hardpoint definitely needs to be addressed. Is it so much to ask that all 4 SBs have equal capability in their designed role? The other SB's are only cheap alternatives because in comparison to the manticore they suck. Balance all the SBs and prices will settle down for them all. I for one don't want to train caldari frig to 5 seeing as I already have min frig at lvl 5 just so I can use the uber manticore.
Sai Remik	Posted - 2005.09.26 22:53:00 - [212] Well, I rarely reply to these sort of things but I'll throw in my two cents because it's late and I'm bored. First, it's getting a bit old hearing how the Manticore is better and the rest suck. Then learn Caldari skils and be done with it. They're different for a reason. Each race has benefits and flaws and it just so happens that the Caldari gets the perks when it comes to EW. If that's what you wanted to focus on, then you picked the wrong race. There's also nothing stopping you from learning the skills to fly one from any race. Even better, I fly a Raven and I'm also FOR the missile changes in Cold War! It's about time people understand there is no uber ship and you need to fly the right ship for the right purpose. There shouldn't be one ship fits all. gets off soap box Second, I'm for removing the targetting timer delay and module activation delay. While your at it, remove the silly can't cloak while locked crap or at least for the Covert Ops ships. Makes no sense from technical perspective and it's not like Covert Ops pack a whole lot of firepower for this to completely imbalance the game. Third, remove the local updates. Don't show players who don't speak! If you speak, then you show up. So, that gives Covert Ops a very serious role. Then people actually have to scan the sector before they do anything. Also, it makes the pirates actually have to scan too. You could slip into a sector without them knowing. Right now, I don't feel like Covert Ops is viewed as a primary fleet role which anyone who's served in the actual military, getting intel before charging in is the ONLY option, not a nice to have. Could you imagine heading into enemy territory in a war and getting handed the roster of the enemy before you fight? Don't think so. More suggesstions would be to create more probe types and skills around them. They're quite limited but I don't necessarily want to suggest slamming in a bunch of upgrades unless you invest in them. This could lead up to actual tech II probes that detect other cloaked ships. Of course you still couldn't lock but you would know they're there at least. You could also make it that a warp bubble pulls you out of cloak too if you think that's a bit much. Another possible role for Covert Ops would be mine sweeper/defuser (when mines actually become useful). Of course these are just opinions and I could be wrong. I just think some depper thought needs to go around each of the ship's roles and I think Covert Ops has so much potential that hasn't been realised yet.
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2005.09.26 23:04:00 - [213] Huzzah for the changes! The whole Manticore is the only one worth flying by a long shot thing? Well it's true and not just because of it's 3 missile hard points (though that's obviously the biggie). It gets its related missile bonus from the Frigate skill not the Cov Ops skill like the rest. Plus the turret bonuses the others get are totally useless. If something has strayed into turret range then you've screwed up and you're probably dead too because once you've got all your slots filled with items to actually allow you to make use of Cruise Missile range etc, you don't have any kind of tank or other survivability. Yeah yeah I know it sucks to have everything the same but there can be balance without homogenisation. Like more useful bonuses for the others rather than those sodding turret ones... it would make up nicely (and in a different way) to having a 3rd missile hardpoint.
Cherry Bombs	Posted - 2005.09.26 23:56:00 - [214] Originally by: Ysolde Xen Yeah yeah I know it sucks to have everything the same but there can be balance without homogenisation. Like more useful bonuses for the others rather than those sodding turret ones... it would make up nicely (and in a different way) to having a 3rd missile hardpoint. I love the idea of having a third launcher HP for my Nemi! And as for the bonuses, I agree that they should be the differing factor between race. Seeing as they are T2, give a racial penalty and stack covert opps and frig bonuses, again, racially.
SexySexy	Posted - 2005.09.27 00:24:00 - [215] need SiegeLauncher or XL Launcher!
totes6	Posted - 2005.09.27 04:00:00 - [216] I havent seen anyone ask this, but when will the next patch be out? Weve got some big changes coming so can we atleast get an estimate when it will be released to the test server and then to the live server? Thanx Totes
Jezala	Posted - 2005.09.27 04:54:00 - [217] Edited by: Jezala on 27/09/2005 04:55:53 Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods. This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity.
novrak	Posted - 2005.09.27 05:21:00 - [218] I'd be happy with a cargo hold properly sized for cruise missiles. Seems like I gotta have a freighter following me around to have enough missiles to actually do anything.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.27 05:26:00 - [219] Originally by: Jezala Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods. This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity. No. These things really don't need more damage output than they already have. It is a frigate. They should really stay a hit-and-run ship, and overpowering them now would just make them get nerfed to hell a few months down the road.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:26:00 - [220] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Jezala Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods. This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity. No. These things really don't need more damage output than they already have. It is a frigate. They should really stay a hit-and-run ship, and overpowering them now would just make them get nerfed to hell a few months down the road. No its not just a frigate. It is a Tech II frigate that takes a fair amount of time to train for. And after it has fired that volley, it is extremely vulnerable. It has to wait 30 seconds to recloak and any ship can lock it in that time and stop it cloaking. At that point, any Interceptor can easily trash it. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Jezala	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:31:00 - [221] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Jezala Since all the bombers are in need of a boost, why not just give them all an extra launcher...including the Manticore. Just be sure that there is a trade-off for the 4th launcher on the Manticore, such as neglecting the defensive mods. This would bring the other bombers more in-line with the Manticore while at the same time keeping the Manticore's unique Caldari identity. No. These things really don't need more damage output than they already have. It is a frigate. They should really stay a hit-and-run ship, and overpowering them now would just make them get nerfed to hell a few months down the road. Are you saying that the current Manticore is overpowered? Funny, I thought they were barely able to do a decent job as a bomber. And a Hound, Nemisis, or Purifier with a 3rd launcher would be almost exactly what the current Manticore is today.
Paxdrago	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:52:00 - [222] I agree that stealth bombers don't have a set role right now. I always thought that they would be more like the torpedo boats of ww2 or the stealth bomber of DC. Lots of damage towards large targets slow moving targets. Lots of stealth. Very thin skin towards any smaller target. They should remain more like now in the targeting time area... However other ships would not be also be penalized in the same manner against them.(lasting effects of cloak possibly very small sig for 20+ seconds) They also should not be able to fill the Anti frig role in any way. They would be only ANti capital ship. Only BC and larger classes would fear them. This could be done by removing the explosion radius bonus and cruise missiles altogether. They would be the only non capital ship capable of firing the Citadel Torpedoes. A group of 2 could easily wound an unguarded BS. They would need thicker skin. It should take 2 antsy to destroy them both before the missiles impacted, but could be done. These ships should be used for critical strikes not for quick ganks.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:31:00 - [223] Originally by: Jezala Now if you have issues with the Manticore having a 4th launcher, I like to hear what you have to say about it. Which is what I'm trying to get across, sorry. My main concern is that these things may become overpowered somehow and therefore, be the new omgwtfbandwagon ship. Don't get me wrong - I'm in love with these ships either way and will probably spend the next couple months specializing in them. The point is I don't want to see them become uber and then have the general populace cry "nerf", which in turn makes CCP come back and nerf it to nothingness. I'm just being cautious when talking about adding more damage potential. Now if you want to talk about adding a 4th launcher slot, that's fine, but something else has to compesnate for that, and IMO it would be the explosion radius bonus. ex: the cruise missiles hit cruisers for full damage but not frigs, which means the explosion radius should be between t1 frig and cruiser sig radius. Which, by the way, is what I'm leaning towards now that we've begun to talk about it. Bomb larger targets. Surprise miners, carebears, etc. Strike hard and fast, and be weary of inties. That's how I imagined it, is all.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.27 08:27:00 - [224] No matter what firepower enhancements are made I don't think Stealth Bombers are going to become the new wtfbbqpwn ship of choice simply because they cost too much and die too easy. A Manticore costs about 22m right now, and that's certain to rise after the patch, plus another 13m for the cloaker. That's a minimum of 35m ISK for a ship that can die in two seconds flat. And a reasonable setup with T2 modules and named launchers can double that cost, easily. I don't think there's any other combat ship in Eve that can cost you so much money so quickly
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.27 10:41:00 - [225] Edited by: Brute Helmet on 27/09/2005 10:42:59 Originally by: Ante Edited by: Ante on 26/09/2005 12:51:26 Originally by: Brute Helmet Manticore also has 150% the firepower of all other stealthbombers, dont forget that The difference between 3 cruise per salvo and 2 cruise per salvo is quite high, isnt it ? The mass reduction is needed since the Hound and Purifier both handle more like heavy cruisers than frigates. I havent flown the Manticore or Nemesis so I cant speak as to how those handle. Did you even read what I typed? You still seem to be hooked onto the idea that firepower > all. They are supposed to handle poorly. They're bombers. They're heavy. They're big. They carry bloody huge missiles and you expect it to handle like a normal frigate. Go try and fit a Manticore with three cruise missile launchers + whatever you fit on your Hound or Purifier then come back and tell us all that the extra launcher makes it this magical ship that wtfpwns all. EDIT: Slight change. Ive never said that Manticore is some magical supership, it does however have 150% more offensive capability than the others. That needs to be adressed somehow since there are no real advantages to the other stealth bombers. Even with 3 damage mods on a Purifier/Hound and 2 on a Manticore the Manticore is way ahead in salvo damage. There are many way to adress the discrepancy in damage output, for instance an adjustment of the damage bonus. Let the Manticore keep its 3 launchers and its 5% per level bonus. Increase the bonus to 10% for the other three stealth bombers. Or, make it a 5% per level bonus for all types of cruise and a 10% per level for the racial type. Oh and the hard to fit Manticore isnt really that unique in that aspect, to fit my Hound with 2 cruise, 1 afterburner and 2 small guns I have to use a MAPC. The guns ? 2 x 150mm AC.
Kremnican	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:26:00 - [226] Edited by: Kremnican on 27/09/2005 11:27:34 I personaly think, that the stealth bombers should be able to cloak in-warp. ATM this means you always alert the enemies about your presence. Otherwise I think removing the time delays is a good start for balancing them. P.S. It's probably off topic, but I'd really like to be able to cloak my Buzzard while "cloaked" after gate jump. ATM, I do a little "blink" in the overview which means the enemies may get a chance to lock on me (I know, it's normaly not the case, but had few moments the lag did work against me).
Redwolf	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:57:00 - [227] Please fix them before unnerfing them. At the moment they are nothing like you claimed they would be in design, and are just glorified frig/indy gankers.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.09.27 12:00:00 - [228] damage bonus from the Frigate rank 3 launchers at max damage with just covert rank 1 who came up with this
bundy bear	Posted - 2005.09.27 12:22:00 - [229] Ok instead of having the third launcher and that launcher fitting bonus the manticore has, the other 3 should have another 5% to cruise missile DMG bonus. The manticore will still be ahead on DMG but not by a massive ammount.
Kage Getsu	Posted - 2005.09.27 13:28:00 - [230] That sounds too powerful to me. My bomber does a great job as it is.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.09.27 17:08:00 - [231] Originally by: Fuazzole damage bonus from the Frigate rank 3 launchers at max damage with just covert rank 1 who came up with this Try fitting those launchers with Covert Rank 1 -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Fekkerov U	Posted - 2005.09.27 20:19:00 - [232] Since Caldari gets the third launcher. Amarr should get 5000 hp armor since thats the Races strength.
Centuri	Posted - 2005.09.27 20:35:00 - [233] Or maybe just let the other races ships equip an extra large weapon? Min would be able to equip a 1400, amarr large lasers etc.
davidfire	Posted - 2005.09.27 21:04:00 - [234] hi many days ago (before this topic) i star training all to have a Cover ops a manticore electronics lvl 5 electronics upgrades etc... but now i have a question if i buy my manticore now when you make the change my manticore will change or i need to buy it later? thanks DavidFire
Xelios	Posted - 2005.09.27 21:24:00 - [235] Yours will change too, even if you buy it now ;) _____________________________________
Vegeir	Posted - 2005.09.28 00:00:00 - [236] Add heavy assault bomber. Same parameters, as slow and manueverable as abattleship but able to fit citadel torp launchers in 3-4 number with bonus to make their explosion radius 110m or cruiser size? They could use stealth bombers as escort for anti frigate. hehe and then a stealth dread with.. ok nm
Jane Vladmir	Posted - 2005.09.28 00:17:00 - [237] Great news, keep up the good work.
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.09.28 01:08:00 - [238] like this change alot !! might actually train for one now. but in my opin they need to omph I would tihnk something like this would work great: 4 Highs 3 Launcher no torrents 1 Mid 1 Low give it a bonus to torps not cruise and add a -75% ROF mod to it (like the dystroyer has) would give one of these enough burst to down a indy or a barge, but would make it so you need groups to take down anything else which is the way it should be. Would it be possible to make it beable to warp cloak but to protect the role of the covert ops have it so it can't be warped to? make it so the only real difference between the 4 is the 2 Bonus's (one from the base frig and one from covertops skill). Give each a bonus to thier racial damage type. and have the other bonus be like missile speed bonus for caldari and a second speed bonus for mim (they are supposed to be fast) not sure on gal or amar second bonus but i'm sure you could think of something. need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more informat
Weirda	Posted - 2005.09.28 02:21:00 - [239] Originally by: totes6 I havent seen anyone ask this, but when will the next patch be out? Weve got some big changes coming so can we atleast get an estimate when it will be released to the test server and then to the live server? Thanx Totes same question here - even a ballpark... as for three launchers on all... don't really care. like the hound how it is and it will actually be better. the only one really lacking is the amarr one - it have serious issues to even fit anything else but the launchers and cloak. 2 more grid and 10 more cpu wouldn't hurt any of them... -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Naal Morno	Posted - 2005.09.28 02:25:00 - [240] Again, people. Removing just targetting delay is very unbalancing to other ships. This will allow decloak and scram in instant. This is very very inbalancing. I am all for reducing it to covert ops levels. If you want this so bad to be removed, please disable abilitt of mounting EW on these or remove med slots.... Your Heavy Neutron Blaster II perfectly strikes Serpentis Chief Sentinel, wrecking for 660.4 damage.
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.09.28 03:12:00 - [241] This will allow decloak and scram in instant. I like these changes even more now need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more informat
Vaevectia	Posted - 2005.09.28 05:25:00 - [242] Originally by: Thanos Firebringer There people go, wanting to ruin the game again. Hey here's an idea, lets not make everything the same so you have options in what to fly. Or how about just doing away with all the races and making just 1 ship type so all the people and want equality will stop crying. Then we won't have to hear about some ships being different then a similar ship of a different race. I mean seriously, WHY DO YOU WANT THEM ALL THE SAME???? If you like the 3 launchers that much, TRAIN CALDARI FRIGATE 5 AND QUIT CRYING. Nuff said. How DARE YOU tell them to do exactly what all the Thorax FOTM users have been saying!??!?!/1/1/1 YOU SHOULD BE SHOTWTF!
Stuu	Posted - 2005.09.28 12:09:00 - [243] Well my thinking is that the Nemesis is totaly screwed I can fit 1 cloak and 1 cruise launcher and then the rest I struggle! So dont make them all the same but at least make them all equaly dealdly in there own race attributes! E.G. Minmater - speed, Gallente - Drones ,etc Level 5 misspelling skill reached
davidfire	Posted - 2005.09.28 13:21:00 - [244] is very good havent any delay to target maybe is good ide to balance make a special scanner who can detect space altertions you cant target a cloacked ship but you can know if it is near.... i like instant target isntant killing ok i cant put a smilies imagine a devil...
Sturm Kintaro	Posted - 2005.09.28 14:20:00 - [245] Originally by: Wootang ok i got an idea: on eve-i.com ive seen "stealth devices" wich reduce your sig radius (opposite of target painters). what would be about the idea of giving those items a chance ingame and give the "stealth" bombers the ability to use those ones instead of cloaking devices there could be different ones for all ship types and a special one for the stealth ships wich some special abilitys just like the covert ops cloaking good thing about this one is that you can still see them on your overview so everyone is warned that they are here but it makes them hard to lock/kill... think about it i like the idea of a seperate item for those ships. stealth device would be fitting name for them. the only problem with those will be that they get heavily resistances against missiles because of the signature radius reduction. maybe it is technically possible just to give them a higher time to get locked. otherwise id say that they should get their own cloaking device.
fairimear	Posted - 2005.09.28 16:35:00 - [246] how about removing it on all cloaks, lets add some spice to life
Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.09.28 16:45:00 - [247] I fly a Nemesis as my only ship today. This ship should not ever ever ever ever become a 1v1 PVP ship. If you remove the cloak lock you should increase the range you uncloak to 20km. You should be launching cruise missles from 100km anyway. If they come after you better warp away. Cloaking and hiding should not be the option for close combat. Make the stealth only for long range. Give sensor dampener effect or tracking disruptor a bonus. -------------------------- Does it matter why, its when is more crucial!
Sabahl	Posted - 2005.09.28 17:00:00 - [248] Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? I do. There was a bug in the original implementation of the cloaking code that meant that you could quickly toggle the cloaks on and off and confuse everything. Your graphics system would display as if you were cloaked, but the game would think you were not. The result was you were sitting in your covert ops thinking you couldn't be detcted and a second later you were gank-meat. Even if you remove the timer delay on the other modules, you should keep the delay on the cloaks themselves to prevent this from occuring. Unless you want to go on a code dive to find out what the cause of the graphics bug was in the first place.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.09.28 17:44:00 - [249] Originally by: Naal Morno Again, people. Removing just targetting delay is very unbalancing to other ships. This will allow decloak and scram in instant. This is very very inbalancing. I am all for reducing it to covert ops levels. If you want this so bad to be removed, please disable abilitt of mounting EW on these or remove med slots.... iwho these ship are just fragile enough to not make this a problem. also, keep in mind that with the scan resolution penalty of the cloak, the ship locks like a cruiser (locking a frig) - which is by no mean instant. even with one sensor booster, you still have to activate it and you still don't get a very quick lock. dunno if you fly these ship currently, but if you do - you should know what weirda mean. -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Ante	Posted - 2005.09.28 19:02:00 - [250] FYI a Hound with 2x 200mm Autocannon IIs does ~20 dps more than a Manticore with 3x cruise launchers at maxed skills. That's ~25% extra dps.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.09.28 19:15:00 - [251] Originally by: Ante FYI a Hound with 2x 200mm Autocannon IIs does ~20 dps more than a Manticore with 3x cruise launchers at maxed skills. That's ~25% extra dps. HUSH! -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.09.28 20:33:00 - [252] Originally by: Ante FYI a Hound with 2x 200mm Autocannon IIs does ~20 dps more than a Manticore with 3x cruise launchers at maxed skills. That's ~25% extra dps. And your seriously suggesting getting a Stealth Bomber close enough to use those guns?
Veskrashen	Posted - 2005.09.28 20:59:00 - [253] Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Ante FYI a Hound with 2x 200mm Autocannon IIs does ~20 dps more than a Manticore with 3x cruise launchers at maxed skills. That's ~25% extra dps. And your seriously suggesting getting a Stealth Bomber close enough to use those guns? Ayup. Use a web to snag an inty, for example, and dump a 900pt cruise volley on him; follow it up with 200mm AC loving and it's toast. They're no more fragile than an inty; they just use stealth for defense instead of speed. There's no need to orbit when you can front load so much damage and cause major panic in your opponent. And yeah, if you work it right you can even fit a 200mm or so plate; that should keep you alive long enough to pop a second volley if the 200mms don't eat it first.
Mowz	Posted - 2005.09.28 21:02:00 - [254] Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Ante FYI a Hound with 2x 200mm Autocannon IIs does ~20 dps more than a Manticore with 3x cruise launchers at maxed skills. That's ~25% extra dps. And your seriously suggesting getting a Stealth Bomber close enough to use those guns? Why not if you're gonna drop cloak, instalock and blaze away?
mexxa	Posted - 2005.09.28 21:12:00 - [255] Originally by: Mowz Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Ante FYI a Hound with 2x 200mm Autocannon IIs does ~20 dps more than a Manticore with 3x cruise launchers at maxed skills. That's ~25% extra dps. And your seriously suggesting getting a Stealth Bomber close enough to use those guns? Why not if you're gonna drop cloak, instalock and blaze away? Why not reduce the distance for gallente ships to be uncloaked and give them lasers instead of missiles. It half defeats the point of it being a bomber but It'd give people a better reason to use different bombers.
Razner Cerizo	Posted - 2005.09.28 21:31:00 - [256] Originally by: mexxa Why not reduce the distance for gallente ships to be uncloaked and give them lasers instead of missiles. It half defeats the point of it being a bomber but It'd give people a better reason to use different bombers. o________O??? So gallente would have to train LASERS to use on their "stealth bomber"? wtf D;
mexxa	Posted - 2005.09.28 21:33:00 - [257] Well some-one else said they use lasers on thiers and hit for more, my post was just another idea for the pool. -------------------- So where's Adam?
Rigsta	Posted - 2005.09.28 22:03:00 - [258] Edited by: Rigsta on 28/09/2005 22:03:46 Originally by: CCP Hammer They came prenerfed since we didn't want them to be too ganktastic but after watching things for a while we think the timers can be removed. Personally I think that was exactly the right approach to take. "My ship was bad but is now good" is better than "my ship pwnt all but now it's balanced :(" For the implementation, I'd say keep the delay there for level 0/1 skills, but give the stealth bombers better skill bonuses to reduce (or eliminate completely) the delay time. That way you don't end up with a minimum-skill destructomobile, and training for them exclusively will really pay off. Almost unrelated: Some means of recloaking while someone is target locking you (ie. not yet locked) would really make the difference. Perhaps a skill or module (not ECM :P) to give a % chance to be able to recloak. And conversely, a skill/module to reduce a covert ops ship's chance to recloak while your sensors are bombarding it. Maybe give stronger sensors a better chance of preventing recloak. Or something. Just a basic idea! Would require alot of balancing. ----------------------------------------------- My Ideas: Drones wish list <-- 2 years old :O
Nytemaster	Posted - 2005.09.29 01:33:00 - [259] Edited by: Nytemaster on 29/09/2005 01:38:41 Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Stan D'marco Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Becuase it just encourages MORE ganking? Given the explosion radius bonus, it's an insta-win button against T1 frigs. It's a bad idea. A bomber should be good against BIG ships, not small ones as this change makes them. Do they not let you use afterburners or mwd at DIE? =) (Old corp buddy to old corp buddy joke) When you get up to speed the cruise still won't hurt you. And this leads us into the useless turret slots. Frig + Bomber + close range = very dead bomber. Even by the time you locked, webbed, fired and are waiting for the next volley you are dead. You're right, except. Except, the things are stealthed, and you need several km/s to do any good. Plus, if they basially remove the usefulness of plates (see: mass), then almost any interceptor is a ONE VOLLEY kill. And they're not helpless outside missiles, you realise... (except the Manticore) I'm mostly agreeing with Elve Sorrow on roles here. Not necessarily full-up torpedos, but say...Lances, a sort of mini-torpedo. Look, if you change this, I will JUMP in one and start killing. But I think it'll be overpowered. We need a good anti frig/ceptor ship that the destroyer was intended to be and hasn't. Maybe the T2 destroyers will be? If not, I like the idea of some cloaked ships suddently showing up and chasing off the interceptors who were tackling. I remember in the past that others were saying interceptors were loved by CCP and it was the frig that was getting too much love. This patch is a direct threat to ceptors the most if you ask me and is very needed. Just my opinion of course. EDIT: As much as I love the idea, I think removing the entire sensor recalibration time is a mistake. 10% reduction on the penalty for every covert-ops cloak level would seem better and make them require cloaking V and covert-ops V to insta lock out of cloak. This seems more feesible an option. --- Nytemaster Mega-Deth
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.29 02:13:00 - [260] So a T1 destroyer can't handle some T2 intys? Shock, horror. Bombers should be just that - useful against LARGER ships, and vulnrable to interceptors. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2005.09.29 03:17:00 - [261] Originally by: Nytemaster Simulated sensor recalibration times for each using an improved cloaking device: Covert V - Cloak V - 0 second. Covert IV - Cloak V - 2 seconds. Covert IV - Cloak IV - 4 seconds. Covert III - Cloak IV - 6 seconds. So on and so forth... (Multiply by 1.5 for a prototype cloak.) two thumbs up Fully endorse the above product. And make it possible for Covert Ops ships, too (by a 0.5 factor?) - The Fox, the Rock, and the Buzzard
Frezik	Posted - 2005.09.29 05:23:00 - [262] Originally by: Wraeththu Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. Ok, if that's the case, then the hound should be able to fit 3 1200mm howies, and 3 megabeams on the amarr one, and 3 350mm railguns on the nemesis. Actually, that sounds like a really good idea. Eve's storyline demands that the Manticore get an extra launcher, but the gameplay demands that they all be roughly even. By having letting each race get its specialized BS-sized weapon on their bomber, you can reconcile the demands of the backstory and gameplay.
Ante	Posted - 2005.09.29 06:37:00 - [263] Originally by: CCP Hammer Does anyone have anything to add? Yes in fact I do have one more suggestion. In order to give a little bit more variety to the ships I would really like to see the Manticore lose a high slot for a mid slot, the Hound lose a low slow for a mid slot and the Nemesis lose a mid for a low. This, to me, seems to maintan the slot ratio for the races fairly well. Would it also be unfair to give the Manticore a tad more cpu (being Caldari and having more mids) while also giving the Nemesis a tad more grid (it has the least grid which is made worse by the lack of the second grid reduction bonus that the Manticore receives)?
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.09.29 07:59:00 - [264] Originally by: Frezik Originally by: Wraeththu Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. Ok, if that's the case, then the hound should be able to fit 3 1200mm howies, and 3 megabeams on the amarr one, and 3 350mm railguns on the nemesis. Actually, that sounds like a really good idea. Eve's storyline demands that the Manticore get an extra launcher, but the gameplay demands that they all be roughly even. By having letting each race get its specialized BS-sized weapon on their bomber, you can reconcile the demands of the backstory and gameplay. Actually, it sounds a bit... I dunno... strange. Bomber to me is short range against (more or less) stationary targets. So, I don't understand all this cruise missile thingy. Then again, unless bombers are made more or less equal, just imagine the outcry if the Gallentean Carrier isn't the biggest, best, and sleekest out there. P.S. just imagine a Nemisis with 3x 350mm II that has the tracking of 125mm Railguns with a 5% per level Gallentean tracking and damage bonus on top. P.P.S. And then imagine the model: 3 really big guns on a pink Fat Man... -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.29 08:01:00 - [265] Ante, 2x200mm II AC wont fit on my Hound. I manage to squeeze in 2x150mm II, and its not exactly the same to use them as when youre in a rifter... And removing a lowslot for a midslot on the Hound, why ? I reiterate what Ive said before : 20% lower mass on the stealth bombers, 10-15% better cap and some rebalancing of the damagebonuses/launcher slots would be good.
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.09.29 10:30:00 - [266] Hmmm, I see new life for the ECM burst modules....
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.09.29 12:52:00 - [267] Originally by: Ranger 1 Hmmm, I see new life for the ECM burst modules.... I don't. They take too much cap for such a small effect.
Dryxonedes Sae	Posted - 2005.09.29 15:57:00 - [268] Edited by: Dryxonedes Sae on 29/09/2005 15:57:03 Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Ranger 1 Hmmm, I see new life for the ECM burst modules.... I don't. They take too much cap for such a small effect. And generally if your locked (requiring use of the burst) at inside 5k range, in a bomber, your prolly cactus already anyway. Being that also you get decloaked at 1500m(i think?), inside that 5k range won't take long for a lot of pilots to uncloak you again anyway (bs's might throw the drones out, frigs would just drive at you... One of the main things i'd like to see turfed out is the racial damage bonus, i think most players accept that EM/Expl is the way to go damage type wise, so why punish the caldari/gallente races? Comparing say a mega to an apoc, the dmg types are irrelevant due to the 2 ships being designed for a different type of weapon, but bombers all use the same type, cruise missiles, pack that racial bonus up, send it home...
Darth Revanant	Posted - 2005.09.29 16:32:00 - [269] ECM burst doesn't work on bombers.
Lodhi	Posted - 2005.09.29 21:53:00 - [270] Edited by: Lodhi on 29/09/2005 22:02:18 Originally by: Merdekka Radaen Fitting Fitting is a pretty big issue for me. Even with advanced weapon upgrades lvl 5 you still can't get away without fitting a micro aux on the Manticore. Sure, you can fit the launchers without it, but that's about it. It's a tech II ship, it should at least be able to fit three tech I cruise launchers without almost doing itself a mischief in the process. (advanced/weapon upgrades 5, covert ops 4) 3 x Cruise Launcher I 1 x Improved Cloaking Device II = 34.08/37.5 MW, 195/306.25 TF. For a tech II ship specifically designed to use three cruise launchers, I have only 3MW for my remaining seven slots with advanced weapon upgrades 5? I don't want a load of extra grid, but it would be nice if the ship didn't require a micro aux by default. That's just silly. As you can see, the cpu situation isn't great either. Since the ship is so hopelessly weak, a little electronic warfare is your only real option for defence, but get ready to shop around for named t1 mods. The other bombers don't get as badly burned on fitting, but then who wants to fly a bomber with 2/3 the firepower of the manticore? There, I said it! Health Really, what is up with the health on these ships? They're barely stronger than their tech 1 counterparts and that resistance bonus... Who's idea was that? It really is so minor that it might as well not be there. I realise that their main defence is supposed to be their inherent stealth, but it seems kind of cruel to make them so weak. I'm not suggesting they get "assault" resistances, but it would be nice if they got say 50% extra health in all areas and the resistance bonuses that blockade runners get (50% to racial primary + 25% to racial secondary.) They'd still be very weak because of their low speed and agility, but at least they wouldn't explode spontaneously when something looks at them funny. For example (Manticore): 360 structure/307.5 armour/337.5 shield shield resistances: 60/55/60/0 (Resistances same as "Crane" Caldari blockade runner in other words.) Cover Op L5 is your friend. I can fit following on my manticore and i got a.weap upg L2 and covert op L5. 3xt-900 cruise, improved cloak II 2sensor booster, passive targeter, dampner pduII, nanofiber Dont need that pduII, but i use to get some extra cap and recharge
DarK	Posted - 2005.09.30 02:13:00 - [271] I need more cpu on manticore.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.09.30 11:36:00 - [272] \/ Another idea would be to have a seperate "combat cloak" instead for use with stealth bombers without the penaltys but just removing the silly cnerfs will do me. Real men, play Rugby
Aeleph	Posted - 2005.09.30 12:52:00 - [273] The bomber, for me, should be quick to strike, but maybe not so quick to get away. The time it takes to cause damage with a bomber, should be somewhere close to the time it takes to lock it down (whether that's big ships lock time, or interceptor approach+lock).
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.09.30 14:11:00 - [274] Originally by: Jim SteeleAnother idea would be to have a seperate "combat cloak" instead for use with stealth bombers without the penaltys but just removing the silly cnerfs will do me.[/quote Just need to add a +100% damage modifier for 5 seconds after you uncloak that really isn't a +100% damage modifier and a tacky little graphics effect! (ahhh, my JE/JD days...)
Brain Kill	Posted - 2005.09.30 20:07:00 - [275] There definately needs to be either a cloak for stealth bombers or a bonus so we can use the covert cloaks. It just doesn't seem right that the lower grade covert ships get the covert cloak and 'better' covert ships. And one thing I noticed: Covert bombers Covert cloak I see a link
SauronTheMage	Posted - 2005.09.30 20:23:00 - [276] On a side note though, the Insurance prices should be fixed for these Tech 2 ships. I just got my manticore finally (for 19 mil) and went to insure it. The premium insurance price is just over $900k, and insures for ONLY $3.xx mil. This is nuts as the ship is a tech 2 and worth alot more then a lousy $3 payout value.
Gabriel BriGGs	Posted - 2005.09.30 20:44:00 - [277] This has probably been said but I"m not gona read through all the pages to see if it has or not.. But obviously the 10 second (cloaking 5) wait before lock is crazy.. but i think taking it off completly is to much of a.. whts the opposite of a nerf? lol. I think a covert ops ship is what, 5 seconds before lock time if you have cloaking 5? I thin that would be good for a covert bomber too. I think that would be a bit more fair. Warpign while cloaked with a bomber.. i dont know.. that seems abit more unfair also. I mean you can easily still sneak up on someone.. just warp in.. and cloak wheny ou can.. and then you can still move at a normal speed atleast to get to your target. Its the targets fault if he decides to sit there, and i guarantee you some*****y people will still sit there even though they've seen you warp in, and then cloak. Obviously its not as "Covert" as it could be, but i think takign off the pre wait lock and letting it warp when cloak would be turning that thing a bit to deadly. and up goes the price for covert op bombers again to 40mil for a crappy nemisis. -------------------------------------------- This is my new sig.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.09.30 21:57:00 - [278] Lock time is fairly irrelevant on a CovOps because you're not going to be locking targets very often. But a bomber attacking at close range has about 10 seconds to obliterate it's target or get blown up. And bombers lock quite slowly due to the cloaker, slower than other frigate-sized ships, so the target will almost certainly start shooting first. I think removing the delay is a sensible, balanced de-nerf. It makes bombers much more useful without turning them into instant death machines, which adding cloak-in-warp ability would do.
Geldorf Drakar	Posted - 2005.09.30 22:45:00 - [279] Edited by: Geldorf Drakar on 30/09/2005 22:45:26 just saw this, and now ive got a really big silly grin on my face.....i rarely post, anyways, GOOD FRELLING MOVE CCP U ROXOR ME BOXORS btw CCP Hammer, you can have my 3 first born children as well as my left leg and one testicle..........all hail CCP...WOOT
Moridin	Posted - 2005.09.30 23:13:00 - [280] since im a lazy bastard. can anyone that has read this thread all the way summ up what changes will be. and what changes look like are inn due to poppilar oppinion
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.01 03:21:00 - [281] Ah yes, I forgot about the dratted huge cap use on ECM bursts now.
Lyra VX	Posted - 2005.10.01 21:52:00 - [282] The Manticore does need to be better at using its missiles. That's what the Caldari "do". It is unfair on the other three though, so how do we boost them in non-missile ways? We give them an extra low or med slot each. The result is the Manticore being the uber missile spewing beast, and the other three being less powerful but more versatile.
Malacore	Posted - 2005.10.01 22:34:00 - [283] I give you 5 drachma and my finest goat for the changes.
Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2005.10.02 00:18:00 - [284] Make the targetting penalty void for Stealths and make them more agile as well as increase their cpu. ......so say I Lucian Alucard of the blood line blah blah blah blah no one really cares anymore! The best joke ever!!!! [url]http://www.livejournal.com/users/sweet__kitty/40953.html?mode=reply
0CISCOKID0	Posted - 2005.10.02 00:40:00 - [285] I'm going to come at this concept from a different direction using what stealth technology is capable of today. F117's and B2's are stealthy from take-off. They remain unseen on approach, during targeting, and afterward. Stealth is their armor/shield. That being said, here's how I would suggest CCP approach this: 1) SB's should be able to warp while cloaked. 2) SB's should be able to warp in, target and fire while cloaked. BUT, once they begin firing, cap use goes up dramatically - so much so that they can remain cloaked only for a short period of time, say 30 seconds, with appropriate bonuses for higher SB/cloaking skill levels. Lower skill levels would allow a player to get off, say 2 volleys and higher SL's could get off 3 or 4. Default cap recharge would be adjusted such that this can only be done once every 5 minutes or so. AND, the SB would not be able to warp out while cloaked until after a recharge time of ,say, 4 minutes. 3) Targeted ships should have a new sensor module that would, in proportion to the above time limits allow them an increasing chance to target and hit the SB. The longer the SB remains in the area the higher the probability that the sensor module will allow a target lock. 4) SB's should have minimal shield/armor ratings. Stealth is their protection. They should be able to cloak/uncloak instantly, thus protecting them from gate campers. But the above-mentioned time limits would not allow the SB to remain hidden if he/she decides to take on the ganker. They would only be able to cloak and warp out. 5) SB's should be less agile than a frigate since they carry heavier weapons and ECM. Fitting an MWD/AB and using it while cloaked reduces the sensor time mentioned in #3 above would decrease the targeting time by 75%. Stealth is a passive attribute - you can't hide a larger exhaust plume. That's my idea. Hope CCP doesn't get too tired looking through this whole to find it. Live well, die honorably. Regards
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.02 09:26:00 - [286] Originally by: 0CISCOKID0 I'm going to come at this concept from a different direction using what stealth technology is capable of today. F117's and B2's are stealthy from take-off. They remain unseen on approach, during targeting, and afterward. Stealth is their armor/shield. That being said, here's how I would suggest CCP approach this: 1) SB's should be able to warp while cloaked. 2) SB's should be able to warp in, target and fire while cloaked. BUT, once they begin firing, cap use goes up dramatically - so much so that they can remain cloaked only for a short period of time, say 30 seconds, with appropriate bonuses for higher SB/cloaking skill levels. Lower skill levels would allow a player to get off, say 2 volleys and higher SL's could get off 3 or 4. Default cap recharge would be adjusted such that this can only be done once every 5 minutes or so. AND, the SB would not be able to warp out while cloaked until after a recharge time of ,say, 4 minutes. 3) Targeted ships should have a new sensor module that would, in proportion to the above time limits allow them an increasing chance to target and hit the SB. The longer the SB remains in the area the higher the probability that the sensor module will allow a target lock. 4) SB's should have minimal shield/armor ratings. Stealth is their protection. They should be able to cloak/uncloak instantly, thus protecting them from gate campers. But the above-mentioned time limits would not allow the SB to remain hidden if he/she decides to take on the ganker. They would only be able to cloak and warp out. 5) SB's should be less agile than a frigate since they carry heavier weapons and ECM. Fitting an MWD/AB and using it while cloaked reduces the sensor time mentioned in #3 above would decrease the targeting time by 75%. Stealth is a passive attribute - you can't hide a larger exhaust plume. That's my idea. Hope CCP doesn't get too tired looking through this whole to find it. Live well, die honorably. Regards 1) Believe it or not, but Covert Ops has two uses: scanning and stealthy possitioning through warping while cloaked. Can't do jack all otherwise, so giving that role to a ship that can actually do decent damage means you'll remove most of what the covert Ops are used for. 2) Cloaking Devices doesn't use capacitor. They nerf the ship in other areas instead. Also, launchers doesn't use capacitor. Also, do you realize what sort of griefing madness this will become!? 3) What? Err... What? So, all ships would be force to tug along a module that will allow a lock (on a ship they cannot lock, cause there's no hit box to target) or possibly autolock (which most sane people really don't want to do)? 4) They already have minimal armour and shield ratings. 5) Hmm, not that frigates are that agile compared to, say, inties, but... Ok, to summarize what I think about all this. Your one good point was number 1, but that has complications on the role of covert ops (frankly, merely scanning isn't good at all, unless you have a tertiary alt to sue for this so that you just have to log on that char). Thus Covert Ops would need to be boosted for new and more exciting roles. One such boost might be more CPU to use the high amount of medium slots for sleathy EW. The rest of the points... It's a 3 million ISK ship, for crying out loud! (manufacturing prices) -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Brain Kill	Posted - 2005.10.02 11:00:00 - [287] Edited by: Brain Kill on 02/10/2005 11:03:48 The Idea above Is true but way to overpowered. They shouldn't be able to shoot whilst cloaked, warp yes but not shoot. IMO they should be able to cloak without cap usage but whilst cloaked can only move around (without ab's). So a good SB user would cloak in, scope their target, uncloak passive target and pray to god their prey hasn't noticed them on the overview or just seen them uncloak. As another Idea you could have stealth bombers impossible to target whilst thier armour is intact, so you have to fof them until thier armour is taken then you can lock them. This would be more like real life, so thier stealth is litteraly thier protection.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.02 11:08:00 - [288] Originally by: Brain Kill As another Idea you could have stealth bombers impossible to target whilst thier armour is intact, so you have to fof them until thier armour is taken then you can lock them. This would be more like real life, so thier stealth is litteraly thier protection. Hello! Turret user here! Amarr and Gallente will thus have absolutely 0 defence against them? (Note how drones require targeting by the drones themselves) Not to mention the unvulnerable tackler it would be if it never shot it's missiles (FoF doesn't react to EW) Oh, and rats don't have FoF. Hello, 10/10 complex! Get real. -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Brain Kill	Posted - 2005.10.02 11:11:00 - [289] Ok That Idea has been removed, can you comment on the rest of the post?
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.10.02 15:01:00 - [290] Originally by: Ithildin Note that while Covert Ops can warp cloaked, they still have a 10-ish seconds recalibration time. Why not give bombers the ability to use all three cloakers, but with different restrictions. Prototype and Improved cloak - no cloaked warp ability, but no targetting delay either. CovOps Cloak - the ship can cloak in warp, but you have to suffer a large targetting delay. Something longer than the delay on a CovOps ship, plus maybe a -40% speed bonus so CovOps ships remain more useful for scouting than bombers.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.10.02 17:24:00 - [291] Originally by: Bombcrater Why not give bombers the ability to use all three cloakers, but with different restrictions. Prototype and Improved cloak - no cloaked warp ability, but no targetting delay either. CovOps Cloak - the ship can cloak in warp, but you have to suffer a large targetting delay. Something longer than the delay on a CovOps ship, plus maybe a -40% speed bonus so CovOps ships remain more useful for scouting than bombers. Or CCP could make a special Stealth bomber cloak which would be a lot easier. That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure.
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2005.10.02 17:58:00 - [292] Ok, now how about balancing stealth bombers against each other? Or, specifically, Manticore vs. the other three :/ Removal of delay sounds spot on though. ---
0CISCOKID0	Posted - 2005.10.02 20:35:00 - [293] POSTED BY ITHILDIN "1) Believe it or not, but Covert Ops has two uses: scanning and stealthy possitioning through warping while cloaked. Can't do jack all otherwise, so giving that role to a ship that can actually do decent damage means you'll remove most of what the covert Ops are used for. 2) Cloaking Devices doesn't use capacitor. They nerf the ship in other areas instead. Also, launchers doesn't use capacitor. Also, do you realize what sort of griefing madness this will become!? 3) What? Err... What? So, all ships would be force to tug along a module that will allow a lock (on a ship they cannot lock, cause there's no hit box to target) or possibly autolock (which most sane people really don't want to do)? 4) They already have minimal armour and shield ratings. 5) Hmm, not that frigates are that agile compared to, say, inties, but... Ok, to summarize what I think about all this. Your one good point was number 1, but that has complications on the role of covert ops (frankly, merely scanning isn't good at all, unless you have a tertiary alt to sue for this so that you just have to log on that char). Thus Covert Ops would need to be boosted for new and more exciting roles. One such boost might be more CPU to use the high amount of medium slots for sleathy EW. The rest of the points... It's a 3 million ISK ship, for crying out loud! (manufacturing prices" END QUOTE 1) I don't care if the CO ships are less useful; I'm only talking about SB's. 2) Okay, so I don't know much about SB's - including cap use or lack thereof. Simply said, there has to be a limit to an SB's ability to fight while cloaked. Otherwise we'll have a universe full of SB's running around trying to find other SB's to pop. 3) Yes, that's so; just like they have to tug around WCS's, etc.But, then again, you seem like a smart enough guy, Ithildin. You'll know when and when not to tug one along. 4) You have an idea of what's minimal armor/shield. So do I, but it's prolly different from yours. And I'm only guessing, but I'll bet CCP has a third idea as to what's minimal. 5) What... err, what? What's your point? To summarize my thoughts. Ithildin, your response to my idea seemed more like a rant or criticism of my lack of experience in the game rather than a refinemenement or redefinition of my ideas - almost like an expert level player showing how much more he knows than the next guy. Next time...keep it to yourself.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.10.02 21:33:00 - [294] Originally by: Raem Civrie Ok, now how about balancing stealth bombers against each other? Or, specifically, Manticore vs. the other three :/ This man is insane. If anything the manticore needds another launcher. * theRaptor strokes his manticore. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.10.02 21:39:00 - [295] Originally by: 0CISCOKID0 1) I don't care if the CO ships are less useful; I'm only talking about SB's. Good for us then that CCP do care about comparitive balance. If bombers can warp cloaked then there is no reason to ever fly a covert ops. Unless of course the bomber warp is so horribly slow (due to a low warp speed or high cap burn) that its pretty much uesless. Cloak warping is a bit to much when combined with a low recal timer and the firepower of a bomber. Though it would be fun being uber while everyone desperately trained for bombers. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.02 21:47:00 - [296] Right, so either they hot fixed it, or the "Targeting Timer delay" is something other than Recalibration Time. Manticores on TQ need not wait for recalibration timer to lock targets. -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.10.02 23:28:00 - [297] Originally by: Ithildin Right, so either they hot fixed it, or the "Targeting Timer delay" is something other than Recalibration Time. Manticores on TQ need not wait for recalibration timer to lock targets. Not true as far as I can tell :) ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Merdekka Radaen	Posted - 2005.10.03 01:04:00 - [298] I've seen at least two people respond to my belief that bombers don't have good fitting with a rebuttal along the following lines: "The fitting on the Manticore is fine, I can easily fit <insert list of expensive named/faction mods here> with my <insert all relevant fitting skills maxed here>." Thank you for making my point for me.
Revalia	Posted - 2005.10.03 02:48:00 - [299] Dont make it cloack in warp because that will make it to powerfull. But could you silence the sound of cloacking when you cloack because right now everyone at any range (i tried at 150km from a friend) can hear you. It's like shouting a cloacked ship has arrived everyone warp out, and completly lose the element of suprise. By silencing the sound the enemy would have to be paying close attention to his overview to see you arriving. Also could you look into npc locking range? right now a 8k bounty angel frig will be able to lock you over 150k and render the cloack useless unless you warp out and back in again.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:20:00 - [300] Edited by: theRaptor on 03/10/2005 09:22:44 Originally by: Merdekka Radaen I've seen at least two people respond to my belief that bombers don't have good fitting with a rebuttal along the following lines: "The fitting on the Manticore is fine, I can easily fit <insert list of expensive named/faction mods here> with my <insert all relevant fitting skills maxed here>." Thank you for making my point for me. Thats because no ship should be able to have the best fittings without uber skillz and items. Noobs should not be fitting 7 425mm rails and all damage mods on a megathron, it just shouldn't happen, and doesn't. With my skills I can. If you don't have: Eng V Elec V Weapon upgrades V and probably advanced weap upgrades IV You should have to fit CPU's and RCU's to get the best weapon's and support (tanking/ECM whatever) on. With weapon upgrades IV I needed a CPU II to fit the ECM on my Manticore. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Selvin	Posted - 2005.10.03 11:45:00 - [301] i think that manticora should have 3rd launcher(even 4rd) slot but also should be unable to fit more than 2 cruise launcher(useless as others SB's hi-slots) ...(but ... from the other hand ... why we (other SB pilots) are crying... Manticora has the smalles amout of PG) :) look at purifier ... instead of 3rd launcher u can put 2(3)x BCS (u cant do it on f.x Nemesis where (even with v.good skills) u have to put at least 1xMAPC) (it seems that purifier is better than other SB (even Manti)) Manticora's price: CCP cant do nothing with it(coz it depends on players) ... Manticora as most desirable ship has a highest price... "We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. " - sounds fair (they dont need any other changes) http://www.agronom.pl/selvin/images/selvint.png
davidfire	Posted - 2005.10.03 12:13:00 - [302] i am agree the suprise factor is the most important the stealth bombers are made whit papaer one or two good hits and they will disapear. Originally by: Revalia Dont make it cloack in warp because that will make it to powerfull. But could you silence the sound of cloacking when you cloack because right now everyone at any range (i tried at 150km from a friend) can hear you. It's like shouting a cloacked ship has arrived everyone warp out, and completly lose the element of suprise. By silencing the sound the enemy would have to be paying close attention to his overview to see you arriving. Also could you look into npc locking range? right now a 8k bounty angel frig will be able to lock you over 150k and render the cloack useless unless you warp out and back in again. DavidFire
Avon	Posted - 2005.10.03 16:03:00 - [303] Originally by: Merdekka Radaen I've seen at least two people respond to my belief that bombers don't have good fitting with a rebuttal along the following lines: "The fitting on the Manticore is fine, I can easily fit <insert list of expensive named/faction mods here> with my <insert all relevant fitting skills maxed here>." Thank you for making my point for me. So months of training and risking lots of isk on named mods shouldn't give you an advantage? What then, may I ask, should? ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Alberta	Posted - 2005.10.03 22:09:00 - [304] Only just noticed this thread so I only read the first and last pages so far but incase it's not been mentioned... How about 20% reduction to delay per skill level as an additional bonus rather than a straight removal. P.S. No need to rush this change, it'll be a good 4-5 months before I get round to training up missile skills. P.P.S. Next patch we want to remove the delay to targeting and module activation when decloaking in a stealth bomber. Sounds better imo. My Thoughts on Game Balance
Justin Cody	Posted - 2005.10.03 23:54:00 - [305] so...who's not fitting remote sensor dampners on their manticore? I know my buddy does cause I told him to. You just have to keep range from your target. Turns his sensors to pudding. Even if he CAN lock you its going to take a while :-P "Ill armed and half starved, they were still desperate men, to whom danger had lost all fears: for what was death that they should shun it to cling to such a life as theirs?"--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.10.04 01:24:00 - [306] Originally by: Justin Cody so...who's not fitting remote sensor dampners on their manticore? I know my buddy does cause I told him to. You just have to keep range from your target. Turns his sensors to pudding. Even if he CAN lock you its going to take a while :-P Who's not using damps as their primary form of EW? The celestis and maulus are your friend. For snipers like the bombers, sensor damps are the only thing that makes sense. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.04 08:45:00 - [307] Originally by: theRaptor Originally by: Justin Cody so...who's not fitting remote sensor dampners on their manticore? I know my buddy does cause I told him to. You just have to keep range from your target. Turns his sensors to pudding. Even if he CAN lock you its going to take a while :-P Who's not using damps as their primary form of EW? The celestis and maulus are your friend. For snipers like the bombers, sensor damps are the only thing that makes sense. Yes and no, dampeners have really short optimal range. (I think optimal + falloff is about 90km at max levels with optimal being 30-35km) -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2005.10.04 10:50:00 - [308] Stealth Bombers should be able to fit covert ops cloaks, if only to make their description true: [...]Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked - a fact which, coupled with their considerable firepower, makes them extremely dangerous in the hands of an accomplished pilot. Just highlighted the considerable firepower because it makes me laugh. The description shows that SBs were originally clearly designed with covert ops cloaks in mind, because the next best cloak slows them down so badly, that even with maxed skills you'll go way slower than when uncloaked. Covert Ops Frigates would still have their place, because they're designed as something else entirely. They're faster and can use scan probes way faster than usual. If CCP listens to some of the good ideas in this thread, they could potentially become able to use ship scanners while cloaked (nothing else though!). If this isn't a good use for a recon ship, I don't know what is. ______________ Join the Family
Avon	Posted - 2005.10.04 10:59:00 - [309] Originally by: Kakita Jalaan Just highlighted the considerable firepower because it makes me laugh. The description shows that SBs were originally clearly designed with covert ops cloaks in mind, because the next best cloak slows them down so badly, that even with maxed skills you'll go way slower than when uncloaked. You make a better point if you try to use facts. My Manticore goes 503m/s cloaked. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
nico wurz250	Posted - 2005.10.04 11:27:00 - [310] Hm this planed changes makes no change to bombers. The CM do not reach the target if the bomber cloack again before the missle hits. if you change this (because it is a cruise missle) and rise the missle dmg bonus to 10% (because i make more dmg with my crow may be) then the bomber makes a sense. . Support your local xetic member !
Shaneyney Mydeago	Posted - 2005.10.04 13:18:00 - [311] Never before have a seen such an over nerfed ship, with good reason imo i dont think CCP had any clue what to do with them. With the NWO here are some changes that might work. My experiance comes from flying the ammar version the Purifier ( probably the worst off of the 4 ) maybe just a shade more cpu and PG scrap the high for a mid or the high for maybe even 2 lows, this keep with the amarr strategy to tank out everything. slightly better cap times on all 4 ships and of course scrap the recalibration time and maybe make it so f.o.f. cruise missiles will still attack a target if you recloak with all these addition work them out on paper and make all relavent bonus' on the ship directly effected by your covert ops skill and your cloaking skill maybe add a recalibration skill for the insta lock from decloak.
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.10.04 17:11:00 - [312] Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle If a manticore can sneak up cloaked to an ceptor, decloak, lock and kill it in a like 3 seconds, it sounds terrible unbalanced. There is no defence against that. It would even work against a ceptor with an mwd, if he is killng NPCs. It seems CCP needs to rethink this a little more, since just removing te delay would clearly not work. Don't just sit there like a muppet...theres your defense "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.04 19:05:00 - [313] Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle If a manticore can sneak up cloaked to an ceptor, decloak, lock and kill it in a like 3 seconds, it sounds terrible unbalanced. There is no defence against that. It would even work against a ceptor with an mwd, if he is killng NPCs. It seems CCP needs to rethink this a little more, since just removing te delay would clearly not work. 3 Cruise Missiles aren't enough to pop an inty, especially not one without a tank. Back when I was a beginner interceptor pilot, a Kestrel with cruise missiles (yes, cruise missiles) required 2 volleys to take a Taranis out (no plate and a single i-a polarised as tank). A Manticore does similar amount of damage. Though, I still think that bombers should be redesigned to take on larger, more ungainly, ships, where the immense fragility of the bombers will not be of as much issue due to the low signature radius. -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
xkerunx	Posted - 2005.10.04 21:27:00 - [314] Not sure if anybody has mentioned this. If so please forgive me for not reading 11 pages of threads. So what about fitting "Large Turrets" instead of missles if CCP really dont wanna give Nemesis 3 lauchers. I know turrets wont go with Stealth "BOMBER" and turrets are a lot different than missles, and blah blah blah..., but hey! It's an idea. What do you guys think?
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.04 21:35:00 - [315] Originally by: xkerunx Not sure if anybody has mentioned this. If so please forgive me for not reading 11 pages of threads. So what about fitting "Large Turrets" instead of missles if CCP really dont wanna give Nemesis 3 lauchers. I know turrets wont go with Stealth "BOMBER" and turrets are a lot different than missles, and blah blah blah..., but hey! It's an idea. What do you guys think? As far as bombs go, you don't need to drop them nor have them propelled to actually be bombs. You can fire them from cannons (see Nuke Cannons, as were used to test the first few US nukes). However, the ammunitions for even projectiles go more towards solid core with warhead than actual bomb. As for EVE - it's a design thing, really. Bombers look better firing high explosive, self propelled, warheads rather than a cannister with ionized plasma inside. Oh, and adding turrets isn't something that's going to happen easily. They'll need to update the ship model for that. Besides this... bring on the stealthy, huge, guns with tiny engines somewhere underneath! Example -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Fallback	Posted - 2005.10.04 21:55:00 - [316] Hmm, most people want to make the other frigates more powerfull (combat effective) to fullfill their role. Why not let them have racial weaponery then? Cruise Missiles on a frigate hull? If that is possible why not 450mm Rails on the Nemesis? The same goes for the other races. Give them weapons to make them deadly predators. Why does everybody cling to the cruise missiles? I think that a Nemesis with 4*350mm will be as efficent This way there will be no more argueing about all SBs being the same... The Stealth Bombers do remind me of the WWII subs: Hunting in packs to be most effective. It should be hard for one to kill a cruiser size vessel, so that not everybody will camp gates cloak shoot everything to piece and be almost uncatchable... It's just a thought that occured to me Fallback
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.10.05 03:20:00 - [317] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 05/10/2005 03:27:57 ok this will be a rather lengthy post so be warned ahead. first of all a general statement, never ever ever ever make stealthbombers warp cloaked. Ive seen 2 mmporgs go down and lose alot of attraction because they missmanaged stealth and it turned sour for those who werent stealthed and got loads of damage packed on them out of the blue. Now back the the "stealthbomber". The name itself is a paradoxon because a) it isnt stealthed, it is at best "hidden while nearly immobile". Camping gates and stations only works in 0.0 due to sentries and concord and most ppl traveling in 0.0 use instant jumps which means the surprise element (on jumpin) tends to be 0. The only point could be that a scout might pass you in your cloaked state and let his follower jump in. The scout would have to be ignoring local showing xy hostiles he cant pick up on scanner, tad unrealistic. b) its not a bomber. Ironic as it might sound, afterall its just a hard hitting burst dmg frig with no or limited defences. Even in smaller numbers 2-3 it prolly lacks the ability to punch through any decent bs tank especially since it needs support to hold the victim in place. If somenoe wants to crunch the numbers i still think 4 taranis will prolly do more dmg then 2 taranis and 2 bombers (dot wise on a plated bs). Keeping that in mind it only leaves us with "minor" targets for our small gang. We are after indies (every t1 frig can hunt solo indies), t1 frigs (any inty can take them out), AF's (a group of 4 inties can take them out like our small mixed pack) etc etc. All in all we are looking at a ship which is supposed to attack in larger numbers (gang of atleast 3-4) on soloships. Thats what we call a gank. At this role the ship (as many other ppl stated) makes a bad stand moving due to its low cap and general chubbyness. So all in all we have a x million t2 ship which fills a role basically normal interceptors and afs could fit well enough themselfs, bar the cloak - which is itself not all to great since it is (thank god) limited to local cloaking. Call it my lack of vision or simply the rather early hours but i dont see this ship, even with changes (lower then making it a cloaked warping gankmobile) remotely usefull. Maybe someone who is all on fire will tell me a scenario this ship could be more usefull then a inty / af fleet? As i dont see much of a change i support the change and think that all bombers should be somewhat balanced to make up for the difference in firepower towards the caldari model (and that doesnt mean they need a 3rd launcher slot, balance can be achieved by other means i.e. survivability, speed, hitpoints or slotlayout) To all the players deaming about playing some submarine game, we are playing eve. Submarines in ww2 worked far different then u might imagine, were not as brilliant as you might dream, were one of the most ineffective weapons constructed (due to technology developping faster making them obsolete) and their "packs" were not one of the core elements of submarine warfare but a mere counterreaction to technical changes in convoy and electronic warfare. Elements like "sphere of detection", "nightattack" and "attacking civilian ships" dont fit in a spacegame because we work in a 3d environment where gamemechanics dont allow "wolfpacks" atm and the majority of your opponents are fitted for combat.
Roshan longshot	Posted - 2005.10.05 10:59:00 - [318] I knew there was a reason NOT to sale that ship. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Brutorus Minor	Posted - 2005.10.05 11:07:00 - [319] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle Though, I still think that bombers should be redesigned to take on larger, more ungainly, ships, where the immense fragility of the bombers will not be of as much issue due to the low signature radius. Just started NPCing in a Hound. Up to 110k isk rats work, not bad for a tiny frig. Nearly got a 750k isk Destroyer, but my rof and lack of wrath mssls didn't help. I think after finnishing all the mssl skills and with better launchers i could get the destroyer rat. SO, i thought, Extinguisher, only 500K isk bounty , np, I started pecking at him from 130-140km working on his shield, then boom booom lol, I'm gone! wtf, Lesson learned, DONT trust bounty, do some home work. I still have a spare hound and it's fun, but as everyone knows, very weeeeak. I'm not kidding, i tested this the other day preparing for clone jump, a Velator can tank a conquistador for about 3 seconds, the Hound didnt even last that long against the destroyer.
Rigsta	Posted - 2005.10.05 15:15:00 - [320] Originally by: Revalia Also could you look into npc locking range? right now a 8k bounty angel frig will be able to lock you over 150k and render the cloack useless unless you warp out and back in again. It also renders sensor dampers completely useless against them >< ----------------------------------------------- My Ideas: Drones wish list <-- 2 years old :O
HonorHarrington	Posted - 2005.10.05 17:12:00 - [321] Good stuff and well needed. Stealth bombers should be like subs...cant take alot of punishment but great rear zone raiders. I would reccomend the removal of fire penalty but perhaps to balance give them a larger radius to uncloak if enemy is within like 4000 meters. cruise missiles already give them long range. Now my next question is...can we have a cruiser version that fires cruise missles? A long range sniper (no cloak) without a bs , but cheaper then the stealth would be great.
Ante	Posted - 2005.10.05 17:31:00 - [322] IMO one of THE most important changes to be done should be the removal of pilots from local when cloaked. Even if you released a new active module that used very little cap but removed you from local would be handy. Hell you could even make it an illegal module to use in empire space. Kinda makes sense storyline wise...
Brain Kill	Posted - 2005.10.05 19:46:00 - [323] I agree, cloaking should remove you from local. This would make people wonder whether you logged out or are cloaked , which would give that element of surprise.
Sammius Hartpac	Posted - 2005.10.05 23:52:00 - [324] Originally by: Ante IMO one of THE most important changes to be done should be the removal of pilots from local when cloaked. Even if you released a new active module that used very little cap but removed you from local would be handy. Hell you could even make it an illegal module to use in empire space. Kinda makes sense storyline wise... I didnt like that idea intialy.. about not being in local, but i like this idea about having to fit a modual.. thought that might be kind of odd because usualy your name shows up in local before you are finsihed loading the next system up :
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.10.06 14:39:00 - [325] Originally by: Sammius Hartpac Originally by: Ante IMO one of THE most important changes to be done should be the removal of pilots from local when cloaked. Even if you released a new active module that used very little cap but removed you from local would be handy. Hell you could even make it an illegal module to use in empire space. Kinda makes sense storyline wise... I didnt like that idea intialy.. about not being in local, but i like this idea about having to fit a modual.. thought that might be kind of odd because usualy your name shows up in local before you are finsihed loading the next system up : removing ppl from local upon stealth would be one of the worst mistakes this game could make. A fully cloaked fleet with a bomber (20km disruptors) as a tackler. Something no scout could detect. In addition everyone would fit a cloak to idle on safespots as probes would be totally useless (who would probe an empty system?). Play world of roguecraft if u like stealth and cloaking, eve doesnt need more imbalance factors.
Aeleph	Posted - 2005.10.06 15:37:00 - [326] Well, if everyone at the SS was running a cloak, what would your probes find, anyway? ;)
QwaarJet	Posted - 2005.10.06 16:17:00 - [327] This thread looked good until CCP announced combat revisited, and the changes like reduced sig radius skills and modules, plus the HP bonus will totally kill bombers and negate this thread. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Avon	Posted - 2005.10.07 08:31:00 - [328] Originally by: QwaarJet This thread looked good until CCP announced combat revisited, and the changes like reduced sig radius skills and modules, plus the HP bonus will totally kill bombers and negate this thread. Probably right tbh. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
H0ot	Posted - 2005.10.07 12:12:00 - [329] Originally by: Ranger 1 Hmmm, I see new life for the ECM burst modules.... No you don't. You just think you do. Go try an ECM burst on any frigate sized ship, 480 cap burned in one go is a lot.. a heck of a lot.
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.10.07 14:06:00 - [330] Originally by: H0ot Originally by: Ranger 1 Hmmm, I see new life for the ECM burst modules.... No you don't. You just think you do. Go try an ECM burst on any frigate sized ship, 480 cap burned in one go is a lot.. a heck of a lot. Well, if you check it a bit you will find out that none of the Stealth Bombers can use an ECM burst, a Purifier has 250 cap, with energy management 5 thats 312.5 cap when its full... The cap of all the stealthbombers is abysmal, 200 for Hound, 215 Manticore, 235 Nemesis and 250 Purifier. Using any kind of ECM on them is difficult. ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Ante	Posted - 2005.10.07 14:12:00 - [331] Originally by: QwaarJet This thread looked good until CCP announced combat revisited, and the changes like reduced sig radius skills and modules, plus the HP bonus will totally kill bombers and negate this thread. I know eh... first they say they're going to make bombers viable, then they completely wreck them again. I started training for bombers when I saw this thread but I'm having second thoughts now
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.07 15:27:00 - [332] Did you read the dev blog? First of all, it didn't say anything about a sig radius skill. Second of all... how are the signature radius skills going to remotely ruin the Stealth Bombers? I mean, they aren't even certain they are going to add those modules, let alone have they told us how they are going to work! And thirdly, the current stealth bombers damage are going to be affect against anything short of an interceptor fitting those modules anyways! You are aware that the cruise missiles fired from stealth bombers have about 50m explosion radius (same as light missiles)? -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
QwaarJet	Posted - 2005.10.07 16:53:00 - [333] I have flown bombers for many months, so please don't tell me how my ship works. anything that reduces sig radius is bad for bombers.End of story. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.07 23:15:00 - [334] Originally by: H0ot Originally by: Ranger 1 Hmmm, I see new life for the ECM burst modules.... No you don't. You just think you do. Go try an ECM burst on any frigate sized ship, 480 cap burned in one go is a lot.. a heck of a lot. Tis true, and I agreed with the person that pointed out I had overlooked that fact..... over a week ago.
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.07 23:25:00 - [335] Originally by: QwaarJet I have flown bombers for many months, so please don't tell me how my ship works. anything that reduces sig radius is bad for bombers.End of story. Your not the only one QwaarJet. And frankly, all 3 points that Ithildin made are quite accurate. Depending on how the new module is implemented... the stealth bombers may very well be the only ships in the game to not be adversely affected against most ships... and if the suck down too much cap (or are percentage based) many 'ceptor pilots may forego them due to the inherently low signature radius they already have. The only thing I'm a bit worried about is a narrowing of the field of ships that a couple of bombers can take out with an alpha strike, due to increased resistances and the 25% bonus if that goes through. The testing should be interesting, and the stealths will be one I'll be giving considerable feedback on from the test server.
QwaarJet	Posted - 2005.10.08 01:22:00 - [336] You can't really test Bombers on the server properly.You have to buy them as they never stock them up in the fight club hangar. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Zac Paris	Posted - 2005.10.08 19:34:00 - [337] Among the proposed changes I'd really like to see new models for the stealth bombers. In the real world SBs are usually the most expensive, sophisticated and weirdest looking things out there. It'd be cool if that was reflected in EVE. http://www.coalescencecorp.com
KingsGambit	Posted - 2005.10.08 21:32:00 - [338] While these are being looked into anyway, how about: - Halving their mass - Giving them all 5 extra PG - Giving them all a 100m/s uncloaked base speed increase - Giving them all 50% more cap - Giving them a boost to agility - Giving them all 200m^3 increase to cargo (cruise missiles are not small) As it is they are not very much fun to fly and my indy moves faster than these frigs. How in Eve is it they seem to weigh 50% more than heavily armoured assault frigates? -------------
Calian	Posted - 2005.10.08 22:58:00 - [339] Personally I think one thing that would really help stealth bombers is if they could use AB while cloaked. Covert ops have warping while cloaked, and that makes sense, they're scouts, meant to cover large distances while hidden. Stealth bombers on the other hand need to cover short distances quickly, and they already have the special ability to move faster while cloaked (which is basically a moot point since their base speed is so slow) but why not expand on that with being able to use AB. Would give each ship it's own useful ability. Covert ops can warp while cloaked, stealth bombers can AB while cloaked. This would help a lot since stealth bombers need to warp in somewhere, cloak, and then set up a good firing position, which is hard to do with their current slow speeds. ------------------------- I hate everyone, except you.
Ante	Posted - 2005.10.09 00:38:00 - [340] Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them all 5 extra PG They don't really need that much. Especially the Amarr and Minmatar bombers. Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them all a 100m/s uncloaked base speed increase Bombers typically aren't fast compared to other fighter planes. Why would they be in EVE? Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them all 50% more cap Then they would have more cap than any assault frigate? If you give bombers survivability then you need to take away damage potential. Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them a boost to agility They're heavy, they're fat, they're slow, so it isn't as though they're going to be very agile. Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them all 200m^3 increase to cargo (cruise missiles are not small) You don't think that battleship sized weapons would take a bit of room inside the ship? Originally by: KingsGambit As it is they are not very much fun to fly and my indy moves faster than these frigs. How in Eve is it they seem to weigh 50% more than heavily armoured assault frigates? Makes sense to me. A weapon that's designed to be carrier on a ship that many times bigger is sure to weigh quite a lot. Not to mention the huge and heavy missiles you're carrying?
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.09 02:10:00 - [341] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 09/10/2005 02:10:37 Originally by: Ante Bombers typically aren't fast compared to other fighter planes. Why would they be in EVE? Really, it's a nitpicky thing. I'd expect my t2 frigate to go faster than its t1 variant, no matter what.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.09 02:10:00 - [342] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 09/10/2005 02:10:21 Double post, sorry
DarK	Posted - 2005.10.09 05:23:00 - [343] Oh dear, these things are slow. I tell ya, don't use these in pure blind, as there are a few 200 AU warps. Quote: Then they would have more cap than any assault frigate? If you give bombers survivability then you need to take away damage potential. How is this cap being used? A Harpy will be using this cap for a tank, whereas the bomber will be using it to actually get from A to B. Small cap battery II is a default module, and when something becomes default there is a problem. A Harpy has 275/150 whereas a manticore has 215/175, increasing that of the manticore by 50% will yield practically the same cap/s on both ships. So oh noes, it has the same cap recharge, it might tank?! it has crappy resists and not enough spare cpu for hardners or the like. Quote: Bombers typically aren't fast compared to other fighter planes. Why would they be in EVE? I think bombers in "real life" go faster than fighters. I think it was mach 2.5 for f-16 and mach 3.0 for b52? I could be wrong, I just googled it. RL isn't good to use either. Quote: You don't think that battleship sized weapons would take a bit of room inside the ship? I guess you have a point, and seeing as the ship isn't really a solo ship it would create some sort of teamwork, ie carrying ammo for your bombers. Quote: Makes sense to me. A weapon that's designed to be carrier on a ship that many times bigger is sure to weigh quite a lot. Not to mention the huge and heavy missiles you're carrying? Well logically yes, but this is a game which means some things don't make sense and shouldn't for the sake of fun and gameplay. We are seeing oversized modules being nerfed somewhat, with the mass increase on plates. The difference is this is an intentional oversizing. I think the ships need to be addressed on some of the issues, but boosting all atributes would probably unbalance them. They need more cpu, bit more pg, reduction in mass, increase in speed, more CAP FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.10.09 07:25:00 - [344] Bombers simply inherit the warp capacitor usage of the T1 hull they are based on, so it's only a problem for the Manticore and to a lesser extent the Hound. The other two bombers don't suffer from it. They only use a little more cap than a Harpy. The warp cap use figures from the db are : Harpy - 0.00000134 Nemesis - 0.00000167 Purifier - 0.00000167 Hound - 0.00000224 Manticore - 0.00000268 Kestrel - 0.00000268 You're dead right about Pure Blind. The Manticore becomes a huge liability as soon as you hit a system like X-70. I tend to fly a Nemesis on fleet ops because of that and keep the Manti for solo hunting, where taking five jumps to clear the system won't have your corp mates laughing at you on TS
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.10.09 12:30:00 - [345] I'm just curious why "stealth painters" or any other sig-reducing modules would matter at all for Bombers? They're anti-battleship frigs.. If anything that stupid sig radius bonus for cruise missiles should be removed entirely. It was a half baked way of making them "useful" by having them gank frigs instead of the things they are supposed to be good at. None of the new changes to tanking and dmg mod stacking apply to Bombers in any special ways that they don't apply to other ships. Quite frankly you only need three things to make bombers useful: - grid to fit a decent setup (too high for cruise atm) - bonus towards, or removal of sensor recalibration penalty (already done) - some extra hp (hello, next patch) Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.09 14:13:00 - [346] Originally by: DigitalCommunist I'm just curious why "stealth painters" or any other sig-reducing modules would matter at all for Bombers? They're anti-battleship frigs.. If anything that stupid sig radius bonus for cruise missiles should be removed entirely. It was a half baked way of making them "useful" by having them gank frigs instead of the things they are supposed to be good at. Nah, that'd make SENSE. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Yseult Atreus	Posted - 2005.10.09 15:31:00 - [347] "I think bombers in "real life" go faster than fighters. I think it was mach 2.5 for f-16 and mach 3.0 for b52? I could be wrong, I just googled it. RL isn't good to use either." Oh indeed, you are wrong. But wouldn't a Mach 3 BUFF be a sight to see?
DarK	Posted - 2005.10.09 15:53:00 - [348] Superiority complex ftw! Google tells lies:(
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.09 16:03:00 - [349] B52 - Mach 0.86 F-16 - Mach 2 at altitude B-2 Spirit (B-2 stealth Bomber) - Mach 0.85 F-117 Nighthawk (Stealth Bomber) - "High Subsonic", which means less than Mach 1 -- NikNac is making me a new sig. It's gonna be so sweet.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.10 02:10:00 - [350] Originally by: Ithildin F-16 - Mach 2 at altitude B-2 Spirit (B-2 stealth Bomber) - Mach 0.85 In my humble opinion this means bombers should be as fast as T1 frigates.
Ante	Posted - 2005.10.10 11:29:00 - [351] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Ithildin F-16 - Mach 2 at altitude B-2 Spirit (B-2 stealth Bomber) - Mach 0.85 In my humble opinion this means bombers should be as fast as T1 frigates. Sorry, but how exactly do you reason that from the figure provided? The numbers indicate to me that the stealth bombers should move at 1/2 the speed of T1 frigates. Fortunately they don't. They do however handle worse. If you assumed that you had two equal sized vessels in a body of water with one weighing twice the other you would expect the heavier mass to require more energy to turn, so with the same energy applied it would merely take longer. What's wrong with bombers being a bit sluggish?
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2005.10.10 14:02:00 - [352] Originally by: Thanos Firebringer There people go, wanting to ruin the game again. Hey here's an idea, lets not make everything the same so you have options in what to fly. Or how about just doing away with all the races and making just 1 ship type so all the people and want equality will stop crying. Then we won't have to hear about some ships being different then a similar ship of a different race. I mean seriously, WHY DO YOU WANT THEM ALL THE SAME???? If you like the 3 launchers that much, TRAIN CALDARI FRIGATE 5 AND QUIT CRYING. Nuff said. Words cannot express my opinion about your comment. Do you truely believe that everyone should fly a Manticore? *sigh.. uh.
Rob Boberton	Posted - 2005.10.10 15:50:00 - [353] Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis Originally by: Thanos Firebringer There people go, wanting to ruin the game again. Hey here's an idea, lets not make everything the same so you have options in what to fly. Or how about just doing away with all the races and making just 1 ship type so all the people and want equality will stop crying. Then we won't have to hear about some ships being different then a similar ship of a different race. I mean seriously, WHY DO YOU WANT THEM ALL THE SAME???? If you like the 3 launchers that much, TRAIN CALDARI FRIGATE 5 AND QUIT CRYING. Nuff said. Words cannot express my opinion about your comment. Do you truely believe that everyone should fly a Manticore? *sigh.. I think the comment was perfectly cromulent. I already fly a manticore and I'm training to fly a hound so I can do better DPS in gangs. Don't cry for removing diversity just because you can't handle an extra week of training.
James Lyrus	Posted - 2005.10.10 17:03:00 - [354] So does this mean that a manticore is the ultimate tackler now? Trundle up to a hostile BS, get nice and close, tell your team mates to warp, and decloak, scramble and damp just as they arrive? And of course, unload a few cruise missiles into them just for kicks. OK, I suppose that _does_ mean you have to by lying in wait for them beforehand, but ... Investment Opportunity:
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.10 17:53:00 - [355] Originally by: Rob Boberton Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis Originally by: Thanos Firebringer There people go, wanting to ruin the game again. Hey here's an idea, lets not make everything the same so you have options in what to fly. Or how about just doing away with all the races and making just 1 ship type so all the people and want equality will stop crying. Then we won't have to hear about some ships being different then a similar ship of a different race. I mean seriously, WHY DO YOU WANT THEM ALL THE SAME???? If you like the 3 launchers that much, TRAIN CALDARI FRIGATE 5 AND QUIT CRYING. Nuff said. Words cannot express my opinion about your comment. Do you truely believe that everyone should fly a Manticore? *sigh.. I think the comment was perfectly cromulent. I already fly a manticore and I'm training to fly a hound so I can do better DPS in gangs. Don't cry for removing diversity just because you can't handle an extra week of training. A prevailing oppinion among a certain group of people is that diversity and balance can be combined, and that balance consists of several different factors which, when weighed against each other, creates a balance between two inherently vastly different objects. These people are opposed by those who believe that balance is axact equality, hence diversity cannot exist at the same time. There's also a few people who think that making ship classes for all races that, by their very description, favours one of the races before the others is wrong. I am one of those. I dread how they'll make Carriers - if not all are equal it is a game design failure, but unless the Gallentean one isn't supreme it will be a storyline failure (storyline failures are very bad, as they remove the 'soul' or 'spirit' of a setting). There are still vast distinctions that can be made to the Stealth Bombers without strayig from the class - more than now the devs should make the racial differences more pronounced. Caldari do have better bomber-power, but the Minmatar should be swift and agile, the Amarr one should be able to take punishment like no other and the Gallentean one... well... theirs is the damage game in every other area. -- Neat sig, huh? Can you figure out what it says?
xOm3gAx	Posted - 2005.10.10 19:25:00 - [356] Edited by: xOm3gAx on 10/10/2005 19:29:04 Originally by: Ante Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them a boost to agility They're heavy, they're fat, they're slow, so it isn't as though they're going to be very agile. 2 words that answer that Stealth Bomber Which if you look to rl - the american stealth bomber is capable of speeds greater then mach 3 but loses its stealth abilities past mach 1. So if this was to be applied here then a base speed increase and agility boost would be appropriate while using ab/mwd wouldnt be feesable as it wouldnt be cloaked ;) Edit: thought id make a little side note the F-117 is not the only "stealth air craft" there are 2 other varients of this particular craft i know of. And not all spec's were ever released about them. ----------------- Decloaks and starts blasting your sig Applesauce Biotch Ok who nerf batted my sig >again<? ^^Bows^^ ^^ALL HAIL THE UBERNESS OF Thee^^ Succumb to your nightmares Darkness
Forlani	Posted - 2005.10.10 21:08:00 - [357] Ive only just started looking at getting a stealth bomber, but from what i can see the manticore is the way to go. Even though ive basicly only trained in gallante ships the gallante stealth bomber isnt up to the manticore, maybe if the gallante one could use torps it would make it an interesting option. But i dont want a manticore clone, i want a good trade off in ships so that their all good at on thing, but that is different to the others. The other three stealth bombers are basicly the same. Someone above said how about drones for the gallante stealth bomber. Well how about having stealth drones, so you can deploy them and their cloaked aswell but when they go to attack the come out of cloak. Id be happy with a Gallante stealth bomber that could do that, or a mimitar one that can use artillery and cloaks inbtween vollies it would have a larger sig radius to give people a chance to lock it before it got into cloak. You know give the ships some variety so your faced with a tough choice that to get attribute a you must forgo attribute b, and so on. racial diversity in the ships should be embraced, as much of a headache for ballencing it will be its why i want to play this game, becuase everything is a trade off, and you have to make the choice that fits best for you.
Justin Cody	Posted - 2005.10.11 00:25:00 - [358] Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 10/10/2005 19:47:25 Edited by: xOm3gAx on 10/10/2005 19:42:21 Originally by: Ante Originally by: KingsGambit - Giving them a boost to agility They're heavy, they're fat, they're slow, so it isn't as though they're going to be very agile. 2 words that answer that Stealth Bomber Which if you look to rl - the american stealth bomber is capable of speeds greater then mach 1 but loses its stealth abilities past mach 1. So if this was to be applied here then a base speed increase and agility boost would be appropriate while using ab/mwd wouldnt be feesable as it wouldnt be cloaked ;) Edit: thought id make a little side note the F-117 is not the only "stealth aircraft" there are 2 other varients of this particular craft i know of one being the B2 Spirit. With a notable price dif between the f-117 and the b2 the f-117 being 45mil and the b2 being ~2.2 billion (each) And not all spec's were ever released about them. Second Edit: Fixed a typo in the speed (hit 3 instead of 1), Also a small side note to compliment this the current max speed of stealth bombers is classified. All released facts point to it being able to excede mach 1 but they never tell you that it goes faster then subsonic speeds. ok its clear that very few people referncing US Military Aircraft have ever gone past the cover of Popular Science here... but its p[retty irrelevent to the topic I'll make a post about all of this in Out of Pod Experiences. "Ill armed and half starved, they were still desperate men, to whom danger had lost all fears: for what was death that they should shun it to cling to such a life as theirs?"--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.11 00:54:00 - [359] Originally by: Forlani Ive only just started looking at getting a stealth bomber, but from what i can see the manticore is the way to go. 30 mil vs 10 mil for the others. Yea. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Bunny Wunny	Posted - 2005.10.11 11:13:00 - [360] please please please, stop letting "cloud" entitys effect the cloaking devices! I just lost a hound when running a lvl 3 mission (no need to kill the billion NPCs, just get though the gates and get loot) get to last area, go though gate, oh look, I'm decloaked and can't recloak because a)theres a cloud and b) the NPC BS can instalock my ass. bye bye hound
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.11 12:43:00 - [361] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Forlani Ive only just started looking at getting a stealth bomber, but from what i can see the manticore is the way to go. 30 mil vs 10 mil for the others. Yea. Actually it's more like 18 versus 12
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.11 18:24:00 - [362] Originally by: Bunny Wunny please please please, stop letting "cloud" entitys effect the cloaking devices! I just lost a hound when running a lvl 3 mission (no need to kill the billion NPCs, just get though the gates and get loot) get to last area, go though gate, oh look, I'm decloaked and can't recloak because a)theres a cloud and b) the NPC BS can instalock my ass. bye bye hound I would think that the reason that cloud is there would be self-evident.
Zeus	Posted - 2005.10.12 06:35:00 - [363] Make avilable a special launcher that fires 2 missles at once. Double the dmg but double the recycle. Replace the useless turret bonus with something useful. Oh yer and keep the targeting delay idea aswell
Braaage	Posted - 2005.10.12 09:50:00 - [364] I'm sure this has been mentioned but I'm almost late for work so not read all the pages. The can't use covert ops cloak needs to be clarified more as many many many people pay for covert ops cloak then find they can't be used on the bombers. I know they should learn to read more carefully but please make it more obvious (maybe a change to the covert ops cloaks is more prudent like YOU CAN'T FIT THIS ON BOMBERS ___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online *New - Building an Outpost
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.12 12:23:00 - [365] Originally by: Braaage I'm sure this has been mentioned but I'm almost late for work so not read all the pages. The can't use covert ops cloak needs to be clarified more as many many many people pay for covert ops cloak then find they can't be used on the bombers. I know they should learn to read more carefully but please make it more obvious (maybe a change to the covert ops cloaks is more prudent like YOU CAN'T FIT THIS ON BOMBERS Well... if the 5000 CPU requirement doesn't give a hint... it's as if assuming to fit a 1600mm plate on an Assault Frig just cause they're "tanky" -- Neat sig, huh? Can you figure out what it says?
KingsGambit	Posted - 2005.10.12 20:43:00 - [366] Originally by: KingsGambit While these are being looked into anyway, how about: - Halving their mass - Giving them all 5 extra PG - Giving them all a 100m/s uncloaked base speed increase - Giving them all 50% more cap - Giving them a boost to agility - Giving them all 200m^3 increase to cargo (cruise missiles are not small) Hope quoting myself doesn't come across as vanity :) In addition to the above suggestions, the stealth bomber class ships could also do with: - Remove the scan resolution penalty too. They should be hit hard and fast, not hit hard at some point in the afternoon, around lunch time. What about...instead of playing with the ships, introduce a new, fourth cloaking device which only fits on them, a la strip miners on barges and cov op cloaks on cov op ships. Give the cloak: No speed penalty, no scan res penalty, no sensor recalibration time, no module activation delay. Recloaking penalty stays the same as others. This way, change the <Race Frig> skill bonus to say 19.9% less pg for cruise launchers per lvl + 5% <racial damage bonus> to cruise missiles per lvl Cov Op skill: 20% less cpu usage for stealth bomber cloak & 10% bonus to cloaked velocity/lvl Or something like that. And my original quoted message is still a good idea too. These ships really need help, and giving them cap/cargo/agility increases won't make them unbalanced, unbeatable super-tanks...just make them bearable to fly. -------------
Exelon Bei	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:27:00 - [367] First of all, im not thinking about PvP, only NPC... So can anyone please tell me if SBers are any good for NPC hunting/mission doing? Are they slower/faster, easyer/harder than in a cruiser/frigat/destroyer? And how much? And what lvl security missions can you do? and how low sec space NPC spawns can you handel? Im Gallente, so im thinking on getting the Nemesis...but is the Manticore worth training the needed caldari skills? Or could the Nemesis with dmg mods do almost the same damage or the difference not that important against NPCs?
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.13 12:45:00 - [368] While I agree with KingsGambit's suggestions, I think that making ALL of the suggestions come true will overpower the bombers. I'd bounce off the walls if we got better capacitor regulation for warping and faster bombers though.
KingsGambit	Posted - 2005.10.13 14:49:00 - [369] Originally by: Exelon Bei Edited by: Exelon Bei on 13/10/2005 11:46:16 First of all, im not thinking about PvP, only NPC... So can anyone please tell me if SBers are any good for NPC hunting/mission doing? I haven't used one for NPCing, but cannot really imagine any use for them whatsoever. As it is now, they can't warp far, move like sloths, have tiny cargo holds, and are very slow generally. In addition, their main damage type comes from BS class missiles which are not so useful against small targets. Even a manti's 3 launchers won't hurt an NPC BS. Plus cruise missiles are the 2nd most expensive consumable ammo type after torps. Plus the ships themselves haven't much defenses, so can't slug it out. In other words, they're pretty much useless for PvE. An inty, assault frig or even cruiser would be much better in any job you could think of trying with one of these in PvE. -------------
Jagaroth	Posted - 2005.10.13 15:23:00 - [370] Edited by: Jagaroth on 13/10/2005 15:25:34 I imagine it depends upon the type of NPC, but you can take out battleships solo with a Manticore. Against Sanshas I sit at 150, take out the support and then just spam missiles till they go down. It takes a few minutes and is not as efficient as using a BS (obviously) but it can be done. It's quite good fun and quicker than using any other similar-sized ship. ------
DARTHxFREE	Posted - 2005.10.13 22:51:00 - [371] i'd like to see a simple change with stealth bombers cloaking while being targeted yay, u wanna bail...hit the cloak and do 250+m/s in your chosen direction well that and a PG fix >:-E3
Emiug	Posted - 2005.10.14 11:41:00 - [372] you also need to remember the story line perspective of the game. caldari are missile users, so give them the best bomber.... amarr, well they use lasers and probably wouldnt know what a cruise missile was till it ripped through their hull. same with gallente and minmatar. if you want to object to this, give the raven 7 turret slots and the scorpion 7 turret slots...then its balanced with the amarr and gallente bs. or give the temepest the option to be a missile or pure gun boat...that will balance with amarr and caldari... you said it not me
babylonstew	Posted - 2005.10.14 12:16:00 - [373] the funny thing is, back in the days b4 transport ships, whenever someone complained that caldari industrials sucked, the reply we gotr was, and i quote, 'train gallante, we are the hualing race' but funny, when caldari have 1 ships thats the best in its class, everyone wants the same, well, go train caldari
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.14 14:30:00 - [374] Originally by: DARTHxFREE i'd like to see a simple change with stealth bombers cloaking while being targeted Yeah, I want to be completely invulnerable, too wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Heraklitus Nomidzon	Posted - 2005.10.14 19:00:00 - [375] So. . . someone fill me in. Why are you talking about real life bombers? What on earth do they have to do with Eve?
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.14 19:45:00 - [376] Originally by: Heraklitus Nomidzon So. . . someone fill me in. Why are you talking about real life bombers? What on earth do they have to do with Eve? Beats me. Originally by: babylonstew the funny thing is, back in the days b4 transport ships, whenever someone complained that caldari industrials sucked, the reply we gotr was, and i quote, 'train gallante, we are the hualing race' but funny, when caldari have 1 ships thats the best in its class, everyone wants the same, well, go train caldari Actually, young lad, back in the olden days people told me to train Amarr to transport stuff. Then things changed. Ah... was back in the days when the Tempest was the best battleship (cause missiles cost a fortune) with Ravens flying around in unbeatable tanks. All the battleships having the same optimal signature (i.e. none, cause transversal versus tracking was all that counted)... No, I think EVE has gone far enough with having a single ship (type) being the one "you should go train for". All the while us Intaki (lowest perception in game, highest base possible is 6 - with 3 extra points) having had to bite together if we wanted to PvP. EQUALITY TO THE INTAKI PEOPLE! BALANCED SHIPS NOW! wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.10.14 21:59:00 - [377] Originally by: Emiug you also need to remember the story line perspective of the game. caldari are missile users, so give them the best bomber.... amarr, well they use lasers and probably wouldnt know what a cruise missile was till it ripped through their hull. same with gallente and minmatar. if you want to object to this, give the raven 7 turret slots and the scorpion 7 turret slots...then its balanced with the amarr and gallente bs. or give the temepest the option to be a missile or pure gun boat...that will balance with amarr and caldari... you said it not me AF are all gun boat's,....why are the other race's not leap's ahead of the harpy?
James Lyrus	Posted - 2005.10.15 11:11:00 - [378] Originally by: Fuazzole Originally by: Emiug you also need to remember the story line perspective of the game. caldari are missile users, so give them the best bomber.... amarr, well they use lasers and probably wouldnt know what a cruise missile was till it ripped through their hull. same with gallente and minmatar. if you want to object to this, give the raven 7 turret slots and the scorpion 7 turret slots...then its balanced with the amarr and gallente bs. or give the temepest the option to be a missile or pure gun boat...that will balance with amarr and caldari... you said it not me AF are all gun boat's,....why are the other race's not leap's ahead of the harpy? Because Caldari use railguns as well as missiles? Bit like minmatar with missiles and projectiles really.
nico wurz250	Posted - 2005.10.15 12:34:00 - [379] Edited by: nico wurz250 on 15/10/2005 12:37:51 Hm, two things about bombers. 1. They are useless if SB-missles do not hit cloacked. (FoF) only launch if you are targeted 2. SB should able to cloack even if they are targeted. Or forget the cloacking thing and give him mutch more little sig radius. And more agility. What is a SB ? A big bomber witch can hit unseen ? Or a ceptor for a hit and run operation like a F16 or a tornado ?
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.15 18:30:00 - [380] No to cloaking while targeted. Common sense really. You have those mid-slots (and long range targeting ability and weapons) for a reason, use them.
nico wurz250	Posted - 2005.10.15 22:03:00 - [381] Yes, not enough mid slots for a battle. Without, the manticore is a indu killer for pirates (1vs1). The bomber will be targeted and killed before the missles can hit, lol. You have to tank, or you jam, or you die.
Claxon	Posted - 2005.10.15 23:32:00 - [382] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Braaage The can't use covert ops cloak needs to be clarified more as many many many people pay for covert ops cloak then find they can't be used on the bombers. I know they should learn to read more carefully but please make it more obvious (maybe a change to the covert ops cloaks is more prudent like YOU CAN'T FIT THIS ON BOMBERS Well... if the 5000 CPU requirement doesn't give a hint... it's as if assuming to fit a 1600mm plate on an Assault Frig just cause they're "tanky" Not exactly, it's more like if the plate was called "1600mm Assualt frig plate" and couldn't be fitted. I found the CO cloak thing rather annoying myself, because I'd spent so long training up cloaking to be able to use one, then paid more for the CO cloak than I did for my CO ship. Then I found that to cloak my (CO)Stealth bomber, I had to buy another (less advanced) cloak, and spend another few weeks training my Covert Ops skill to get the thing to go anywhere at a reasonable speed. It's such a shame CO cloak doesn't work on the stealth, because being forced to warp with the cloak off, isn't exactly the stealthiest way to approach a target.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.16 00:43:00 - [383] Remove bombers from the CO market group :/ Said this before... "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Mar vel	Posted - 2005.10.16 17:01:00 - [384] This thread has existed for some time. Nice that something is being addressed here: the Stalth Bomber is an interesting ships that was designed to be something more: the Nerf-bat obviously crippled it at the last minute. I am going to focus on the Manticore, as I am a Caldari pilot. Limitations: 1. Weak armour and shield bonuses; barely over the t1 version. 2. Stealth is where? Not here. No cloak while warped. 3. You cannot cloak if someone is targeting you. 4. Targeting delay makes this ship useless. 5. Lack of shields/Armour resistances means one good shot from someone and you're dead; along with 30-40m in ship and kit. 6. T2 ship fitting T2 launchers and equipment? Not likely with this setup, as CPU/PG is so underpowered as to make it ineffective. I think before CCP decides to do anything with the Stealth Bomber, it needs to have a clearer vision of how this ship fits into Eve. It's hopelessly between three different worlds, and does all of them less than satisfactory. Removing the delays doesn't remove the limitations above; and unless that is addressed, the ship has very limited value to me personally.
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.16 18:44:00 - [385] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 16/10/2005 18:46:41 Originally by: nico wurz250 Yes, not enough mid slots for a battle. Without, the manticore is a indu killer for pirates (1vs1). The bomber will be targeted and killed before the missles can hit, lol. You have to tank, or you jam, or you die. Post patch drop cloak and target at 70-100km, engage a couple of sensor damps or tracking disruptors, stay well out of range and rain in the cruise. Against multiple long range BS obviously this is a bad plan, but then again any frigate in that situation is dead. If your not there first, warp in at range and cloak immediately... then exercise a bit of patience. Either your target will leave immediatly (and thus loose track of whether you are still there or not), or he will come looking for you. With the speed boost while cloaked they will have to be very lucky to bust your cloak. Wait until the odds and range are in your favor and drop cloak and fire (obviously being aligned first). Conversely in this situation, move into whatever position you wish to bring in the rest of the ships on your side at the appropriate range. The main problem with the Stealth Bombers was the fact that you had that blasted delay before you could target. Time enough for an insta-lock ship or a very fast inty to nail you before you could defend yourself with your mid-slots. With the delay gone, those cruicial 7 or 8 seconds after you uncloak are all yours. Small groups of cloaked bombers correctly positioned at the gates/stations in a system will be even more effective, especially in conjunction with a few tackers. This still leaves MWDing ceptors and long range snipeing BS (and Eagles) as foe's to be avoided at all cost. This in my opinion is as it should be.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.16 21:25:00 - [386] Edited by: Ithildin on 16/10/2005 21:25:20 Originally by: Claxon Not exactly, it's more like if the plate was called "1600mm Assualt frig plate" and couldn't be fitted. I found the CO cloak thing rather annoying myself, because I'd spent so long training up cloaking to be able to use one, then paid more for the CO cloak than I did for my CO ship. Then I found that to cloak my (CO)Stealth bomber, I had to buy another (less advanced) cloak, and spend another few weeks training my Covert Ops skill to get the thing to go anywhere at a reasonable speed. It's such a shame CO cloak doesn't work on the stealth, because being forced to warp with the cloak off, isn't exactly the stealthiest way to approach a target. Well, putting Covert Ops cloak on the Stealth Bombers will drastically reduce the usefulness of the Covert Ops ships. On the other hand, here's an idea to that, as the Stealth Bombers would need a revamped bonus for that. Anyone noticed the two really useless bonuses all Covert Ops get? +5% Thermal Drone damage!?: Generic Covert Ops. Hull: +5% Racial EW effectiveness and -10% racial EW cap usage Covert Ops: -92% to -100% cloaking device CPU need and -10% Scan Probe Duration. Class: Does not suffer sensor recalibration time Comment: This would make the Covert Ops something of Black Ops, they will suddenly get a use in combat and due to the high number of mid slots they generally carry, they will be dreadfully effective at what they do. Possibly the Cheetah might be a bit... lacking... compared to the others in that it will suffer a great survivability issue. The Buzzard will be downright nasty. Generic Stealth Bomber. (This is the Torp variant that I prefere) Hull: +5% Racial Torpedo damage and -19.85% (-99.25% - Siege cost 13.125 powergrid) Covert Ops: -92% to -100% cloaking device CPU need and 25% cloaked speed (permanent AB with Cov Cloak) Class: Does not suffer sensor recalibration time Note: Torpedoes will have NO explosion radius mutator - poor damage against interceptors good against battleships and larger! This is a ship designed to attack battleships and larger, although industrials certainly won't have much to say against a few torpedoes. Example Manticore. High: 6 - 5 Launchers Medium: 4 Low: 2 Powergrid: 35 CPU: 300 Example Nemesis. High: 7 - 4 Launchers, 2 turrets Medium: 3 Low: 4 Powergrid: 40 CPU: 245 Commentary: While the Manticore will certainly be a lot more powerful at the designated task (doing approximatly 20% more damage per second to battleships), the other bombers will offer a slightly more generous slot layout and the actual capability of doing damage to smaller ships via turrets. Weee bit powerful, perhaps, but then again there's no large-ship frigate, and BOMBER deffinatly say "I shoot slow and big people" and what is slower and bigger than battleships? Freighters! Even better... A torp stealth bomber would actually make a unique T2 frigate. So far we have interceptors, assault frigates, covert ops, and stealth bombers. 3 of 4 are all, due to bonuses and speeds etc., focused on taking out FRIGATES. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Overkill? wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.16 23:41:00 - [387] Well, I think torps would be overkill. The heavy rockets proposed for cruisers, now... "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
ObiWan Janssen	Posted - 2005.10.17 06:42:00 - [388] Yes please! And a little more power grid would be nice indeed.
DarK	Posted - 2005.10.17 06:59:00 - [389] Don't call them Heavy Rockets, Light Torpedos is better:) I like Ithildin's Idea, a bombing ship that is anti BS and above was what I thought they would be all along. 3 cruise missiles don't really do enough damage to make a BS care, only really effective against cruisers that aren't plated.
Brain Kill	Posted - 2005.10.17 08:20:00 - [390] If they are truly stealth then wouldn't they have built in passsive targetters? I would personnaly love to see stealth drones to give the other races (other than caldari) a chance. Drones that are cloaked untill they get within 750m but work like light drones and hit at a maximum of 500m.
Oohwha Schipperman	Posted - 2005.10.18 15:24:00 - [391] Here's a suggestion on how to allow stealth bombers to cloak without rendering the covert ops ships useless: add a new module, the Phased Covert Ops Cloak, that allows you to cloak while in warp, and to remain cloaked for 10-20 seconds (maybe dependent on cloaking skills?) after leaving warp -- at which point the cloak disengages and can't be reengaged for thirty seconds. That lets the stealth bomber pilot fly in and chose his targets undetected before attacking ... which is what you'd expect from a stealth ship. But he can't stay on station to surveil the enemy, nor can he spend the time it takes to maneuver into position to be an effective warp-in target. That still leaves roles for the covert ops ship.
Brain Kill	Posted - 2005.10.19 16:47:00 - [392] I personally would love to see them travel really fast and have what I would class as heavy rockets. Basically these rocket launchers spurt out 10 heavy rockets almost at the same time but take a while to reload. The plan being to rush over them whilst firing these rockets at your target. Then hopping he doesn't nail you whilst you reload. These rockets could perhaps negate weapons for a brief time so you aim to stagger the firing so you have at leas tone launcher loaded whilst the target can't fire. This would live up to the name stealth bomber, much like they do today. Cloak in, get to the right distance, turn cloak of, turn speed enhancers on, approach an object in the direction you want to travel, fire 1 pause, 2 pause etc then reload frantically. So in essence they would be quick hit and run vessels that rely on the opponent not being able to hit them (easy to take out).
Bopque	Posted - 2005.10.20 05:39:00 - [393] yes remove those the mod activation delay and the targeting delay also remmove the 30 sec recloak timer also or give a spec stealth bomber cloaking dev and put out a skill to even decrease that recloak time to say less than 8 sec. IMO its the recloak time that gets u killed in a stealth bomber 30 sec is to long to recloak.
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.10.21 16:06:00 - [394] stealth heavy ogre II! lmao...
Tithus	Posted - 2005.10.21 17:50:00 - [395] Man...so many pages...can't some weeding of repeats be done? I read an entire page of "it's 50% no it's 33% no it's...blaa blaa blaa" Anyhow, the Caldari are supposed to be not just good with missiles, but good as designing missile ships. I think the number of missile points is fine. If you don't like it, LEARN THE SKILL AND BUY ONE! Nothing is stopping you. Okay, you're at a disadvantage if you only bought the game to fly a stealth bomber with missiles, but if that's the only reason you bought the game, then you shoulda done more research and been a Caldari. The other races have their versions of ships, some of which are far better than similar Caldari ships. We could all complain about each-other races ships or we could accept that some are better designed and if we really think they're worth the investment, take the time to get one. If you don't think it's worth the time, then you shouldn't be complaining about it. And before you say anything, yes, I am playing a Caldari. And yes, I did choose them for their advantage with missiles. And yes, I would feel sorely ripped off if just because some other people complained, another ship or ships were upgraded to match. Many of you are talking about solo-ing with stealth bombers. Personally, I don't think that's what they're meant for. Ideally you would have a group of them do hit-and-runs on large ships or stations. If you're serious about it, have a bunch of them with the rest of a large or small fleet. Use EW ships and smaller anti-frigate ships. Go in with part of your fleet cloaked, get their confidence up, then wham hit them hard, take out their big guns with your bombers, then recloak them if they get targetted and let the rest of your fleet take out their smaller ships. Now if used in that respect, yes the Caldari ships will still have 50% more potential missiles on their bombers, so have a few more bombers if you're not using Manticores. It's their advantage. Yes, it's good, but that doesn't mean it's not balanced, considering the fact that if anyone wants one, they can take the time to train up for one. Now, let's go blow some sh*t up!
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.21 19:10:00 - [396] Originally by: Tithus Man...so many pages...can't some weeding of repeats be done? I read an entire page of "it's 50% no it's 33% no it's...blaa blaa blaa" Anyhow, the Caldari are supposed to be not just good with missiles, but good as designing missile ships. I think the number of missile points is fine. If you don't like it, LEARN THE SKILL AND BUY ONE! Nothing is stopping you. Speaking of which. The post you just made is one of the first that'd be removed. But there is so much balancing that can be done! Do you not grasp it! The oppurtonity for diversity, the stats can be changed in so many ways, and the different suplementary roles the different ships can fill are just waiting there for the devs to see and implement. Yes, Caldari are the missile hobos... er... kings. Does that stop the others from putting their own unique touch to their ships? Does it stop the Mimatarian one to be the only one with soup-uped ductape engines, flying extremely faster than all the others (and thus be the only one to be fast enough to get into possition fast enough to make a real difference)? No! Does it stop the Amarrian one to be the only one to be able to sustain damage when the alpha strike fails? Or the gallentean one to be a real nightmare when uncloaking 2m from you by unleashing it's hellish blaster arsenal from where it can actually hit? No. Let Caldari keep their dratted missiles, I don't want them. What I want is a Gallentean Stealth Fighter (note the distinction, CCP doesn't make bombers, they make fighters) that's worth something. Maybe not in missile bombardment, but it shall damned well be good to use! Do you understand now? Diversity and balance means change of scenery and "feel", but not performance. It does not mean change of racial skill training to get good performance. wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Ilia Krenstein	Posted - 2005.10.21 20:15:00 - [397] n00b warning I am entirely new to the entire covert op/cloaking/stealth bomber thing. Could someone tell me what the difference between a Covert op and a stealth bomber is. I just bough a Manticore hoping to use it to sneak in/out of 0.0 for trading and perhaps spying. Then I read that Manticore cannot cloak like the Covert ops can. Hell, I thought the manticore was a covert op ship? Can it use Covert op cloak module? What modules fit what, what are the functional differences etc. I really like to know before I buy more useless expensive stuff.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.21 20:48:00 - [398] Originally by: Ilia Krenstein n00b warning I am entirely new to the entire covert op/cloaking/stealth bomber thing. Could someone tell me what the difference between a Covert op and a stealth bomber is. I just bough a Manticore hoping to use it to sneak in/out of 0.0 for trading and perhaps spying. Then I read that Manticore cannot cloak like the Covert ops can. Hell, I thought the manticore was a covert op ship? Can it use Covert op cloak module? What modules fit what, what are the functional differences etc. I really like to know before I buy more useless expensive stuff. The difference is that the Covert Ops have a bonus that enables them to use the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II, while the Stealth Bomber is more combat oriented and doesn't have this bonus. There's only one difference between them as far as cloaking goes, but it's a big one - the Stealth Bomber cannot warp while cloaked. wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Ilia Krenstein	Posted - 2005.10.21 20:56:00 - [399] Quote: There's only one difference between them as far as cloaking goes, but it's a big one - the Stealth Bomber cannot warp while cloaked. So I have to warp there, show myself to everyone and THEN cloaking? Damned, 21 million ISK (Stealth bomber) instead of 7.5 million ISK (Covert op) with a cloak that actually works. How are the stealth bombers supposed to be used? Gate camping I guess? (Thanks for the swift reply btw)
000Hunter000	Posted - 2005.10.22 13:06:00 - [400] I want to be able to cloak immediatly after i've launched my cm's if this means the targetting delay while uncloaking remains then so be it. signature? What signature? ;)
ErrorS	Posted - 2005.10.22 15:28:00 - [401] how did I miss this? wow. I didn't read the thread.. but uh.. does that mean in fleet battles we'll have 5 stealth bombers in the backround decloaking, firing cruises and recloaking immediately? err.. still gonna be a delay between uncloaking and decloaking? :( I can imagine having a gang leader screaming "INTERCEPTORS, GET THE DAMN BOMBERS" in ventrilo :D if I had my way bombers would be super low defense (frigate level.. with cruiser signature) but could cloak and decloak in a 5 second timeframe, locked on to ships really fast, had a really small cargo capacity.. would be fun as an interceptor to try and get to a bomber as quickly as possible to fire off the needed few shots to take him out... but, i don't always get my way, so whatever.. would also be fun if cloaking devices needed shield energy to stay on ________ I'm strict Caldari "The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think? -ErrorS
Joe Ball	Posted - 2005.10.22 15:31:00 - [402] Edited by: Joe Ball on 22/10/2005 15:32:56 i would say the bombers need a covert ops cloaking, ore wy it calls stealth bomber. the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking is a good chhange. for the blance i wuld say push the dmg mod by the other bombers with 2 launchers.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.10.23 03:23:00 - [403] What ever CCP does, I doubt its going to convince to me to rename my 3 Nemsis Bombers something else besides "******* Useless" unless something more drastic is done.
000Hunter000	Posted - 2005.10.23 12:11:00 - [404] I think bombers are great and removing the targetting delay would make it even greater, allthough i still rather be able to cloak immediatly instead of having to wait for the cm's to hit the target, that way the bomber would become exactly what it's supposed to be (imo) a hit and run ship, u warp in, launch cm's and cloak. signature? What signature? ;)
dabster	Posted - 2005.10.23 13:43:00 - [405] Originally by: Ilia Krenstein Quote: There's only one difference between them as far as cloaking goes, but it's a big one - the Stealth Bomber cannot warp while cloaked. So I have to warp there, show myself to everyone and THEN cloaking? Damned, 21 million ISK (Stealth bomber) instead of 7.5 million ISK (Covert op) with a cloak that actually works. How are the stealth bombers supposed to be used? Gate camping I guess? (Thanks for the swift reply btw) Covert ops ships + covert ops cloak = roughly the same ISK as bomber + cheaper cloak Also, bombers are best used collecting dust in hangars until they get de-nerfed. ___________________________ Chicks dig Brutor's
Ilia Krenstein	Posted - 2005.10.23 16:57:00 - [406] Yes, my stealth bomber will (collect dust in the hangar). You really can't sell it as nobody wants them except silly me who bought one believing it was useful for covert ops.
altim	Posted - 2005.10.23 19:53:00 - [407] it would be good if one could use the smae cloaking device as used on the Heroen, so you can warp cloaked and still be able to uncloack and attack immideatly
Fighterpilotjp	Posted - 2005.10.24 12:54:00 - [408] Edited by: Fighterpilotjp on 24/10/2005 12:57:16 Remove the delays, and the module will become standard on all PvP setups, I'm sure of it. I suggest increasing the fitting requirements of the prototype cloaking device, and increasing the base cost of all cloaking devices in the game if this change goes through. But other than that, it sounds frickin' awesome! EDIT: By the way, I'm assuming that when you say "removing the delays", you're going with taking them off all cloaking devices...which would be scary. Very scary.
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.24 18:49:00 - [409] Originally by: Fighterpilotjp Edited by: Fighterpilotjp on 24/10/2005 12:57:16 Remove the delays, and the module will become standard on all PvP setups, I'm sure of it. I suggest increasing the fitting requirements of the prototype cloaking device, and increasing the base cost of all cloaking devices in the game if this change goes through. But other than that, it sounds frickin' awesome! EDIT: By the way, I'm assuming that when you say "removing the delays", you're going with taking them off all cloaking devices...which would be scary. Very scary. No, it will be a "bonus" of the stealth bomber.
RedClaws	Posted - 2005.10.24 20:24:00 - [410] standard equipment : i doubt it cause it really breaks down the locktimes. + it takes a highslot and quite a nice amount of cpu
nico wurz250	Posted - 2005.10.25 10:39:00 - [411] Hm, just another quest. It can¦t be correct that a cruise missle do not hit if the target is not targetet or i am cloacked. Is a CM and not a normal missle so it should have a autonomous targeting system on it. .
Fighterpilotjp	Posted - 2005.10.25 12:44:00 - [412] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Fighterpilotjp Edited by: Fighterpilotjp on 24/10/2005 12:57:16 Remove the delays, and the module will become standard on all PvP setups, I'm sure of it. I suggest increasing the fitting requirements of the prototype cloaking device, and increasing the base cost of all cloaking devices in the game if this change goes through. But other than that, it sounds frickin' awesome! EDIT: By the way, I'm assuming that when you say "removing the delays", you're going with taking them off all cloaking devices...which would be scary. Very scary. No, it will be a "bonus" of the stealth bomber. Oh, alright. Woohoo!
Captain Merkin	Posted - 2005.10.25 14:55:00 - [413] I still think that one of the best ideas suggested here was to allow them to cloak once in warp this would mean you could enter a gate etc.. without being seen (kinda the whole point imo) cloaking whilst in combat also ace, but unable to warp whilst cloaked may be fairly nice as well
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.10.25 14:58:00 - [414] Originally by: nico wurz250 Hm, just another quest. It can¦t be correct that a cruise missle do not hit if the target is not targetet or i am cloacked. Is a CM and not a normal missle so it should have a autonomous targeting system on it. This is EVE not real life. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Neko Makai	Posted - 2005.10.26 03:49:00 - [415] Originally by: Frezik Originally by: Wraeththu Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae Every other race has it's specialty, the caldari is missiles. Ok, if that's the case, then the hound should be able to fit 3 1200mm howies, and 3 megabeams on the amarr one, and 3 350mm railguns on the nemesis. Actually, that sounds like a really good idea. Eve's storyline demands that the Manticore get an extra launcher, but the gameplay demands that they all be roughly even. By having letting each race get its specialized BS-sized weapon on their bomber, you can reconcile the demands of the backstory and gameplay. I vote for this also, actually if u think about RL army weird junk they have had artillery and missiles on trucks, and soon lasers (coming soon). Just have dmg bonus and normal racial junk on each one
BABARR	Posted - 2005.10.27 00:23:00 - [416] "I don't know if it sounds better to say: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Or We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay from cloaking devices fitted to stealth bombers next patch. Or maybe even Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay..... Anyway, that's what we want to do. Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? For their cost and the potential for them to be really cool ships they seem under-used. They came prenerfed since we didn't want them to be too ganktastic but after watching things for a while we think the timers can be removed. So, thoughts?" ... and why not give them 1000 hp more in armor? It's already a ship for coward (Hit what i want hit, run or cloack, hard to catch...) who can do hard hit on small ship...(and big :)) I dont want a EVE online where everybody are cloacked. Yes, in 0,0 you can catch them whith bublle or smart :D, but when you are in war in empire???? (Whith all the overview bug, and the concord message when you want hit a war target..)
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.27 02:14:00 - [417] Originally by: BABARR ... and why not give them 1000 hp more in armor? It's already a ship for coward (Hit what i want hit, run or cloack, hard to catch...) who can do hard hit on small ship...(and big :)) I dont want a EVE online where everybody are cloacked. Yes, in 0,0 you can catch them whith bublle or smart :D, but when you are in war in empire???? (Whith all the overview bug, and the concord message when you want hit a war target..) 1) You can't cloak while locked. 2) Missiles disappear after you have cloaked. Learn the facts.
BABARR	Posted - 2005.10.27 03:32:00 - [418] LOL, yes thx i know that. But fire when you are at 100km using damper not a lot of ppl can lock you (And do a loot of dmg on small ship, so interceptor got lot of difficulty to lock one), and bomber strat are oftem : uncloack (at more than 60km), fire, warp out and cloack. That make ship very difficult to catch. That is balanced whith the Re-cloack delay AND the targeting delay. If you remove that.... Blob of Bomber will become Very, very unfunny. If you remove the target timer....OMG, 5 bomber uncloack...small lag... BOOMM you are dead... It's already a no-dogfight ship, don't make it a no-fight ship.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.27 04:02:00 - [419] Originally by: BABARR Blob of Bomber will become Very, very unfunny. If you remove the target timer....OMG, 5 bomber uncloack...small lag... BOOMM you are dead... It's already a no-dogfight ship, don't make it a no-fight ship. So? Blob of battleships > Blob of bombers. There's a few ships in the game that rely on their midslots for defense or luring (Celestis). There's a reason why these ships are so slow and fragile. You're right in saying that it's a no-dogfight ship, because getting close in a bomber is a wreckless idea. There are long range ships and short range ships in this game. Live with it. Even with the timers removed, this isn't a perfect ship: it can be killed by most other ships in the game in a given tactical situation. That's balance.
Ocean Soul	Posted - 2005.10.27 12:04:00 - [420] I think its a brilliant idea reducing the cloak> targeting delay. However i have seen countless coments about other race ships have 1 less launcher than manticore, but isnt the Caldari primary skills missiles? Does this not give Caldari ships the right to have 1 extra missile bay? purhaps to even the score alittle and lower the power difference give the other ships an extra mid point. earlier someone mentioned the fact that 2 sensor boosters were needed to target at cruise missiles max range. An extra mid point would give the other 3 SB's an addvantage the manticore doesnt have. but other than the delay and the manticores extra high point i think the SB's are well balanced
Ulipotiy	Posted - 2005.10.27 17:55:00 - [421] "There are long range ships and short range ships in this game. Live with it. Even with the timers removed, this isn't a perfect ship: it can be killed by most other ships in the game in a given tactical situation. That's balance" ..look at the killboard.. how many bomber are destroyed?? very, very a few, and its not beacause a few ppl fly them. ...And blob of BS=blob of bomber... Well, well. If you see that like this BS are a bit easier to catch , less mobility, no speed when cloacked, slower to warp, easier to lock... ect, ect. With cloacking at 5 the lock timer is not bad, but ppl want fly Tech2 ship whitout skill... And when you say even the timer will be removed, you can kill this ship in given tactical situation, yes, maybe, but the pilote of the bomber got always the choice to dont go in this situation cause Bomber=verysmallshipwhocancloackandmakedmg. (And i really wonder which situation)
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.27 18:20:00 - [422] I don't know where these rants about how the bomber (Manticore?) is already overpowered came from. They make little sense to me. There are enough balancing elements in place: lack of hp, cruiser-esque max speed, slow to warp (yes, about as much as a BS), slow in warp, warping 35 AU+ takes up all the capacitor (bad design choice imho), tiny cargos... well you get the point. A bomber is a cost-effective alternative to say, sniper HACs. You get close to the same damage while sacrificing a hell of alot of defense. No, a fleet of bombers is not better than a fleet of battleships. I don't understand where the entire "bomber > battleship" logic comes from. It's about time the Caldari got a ship class that they excel at over the other races, so I don't see the point of all the complaining.
Razner Cerizo	Posted - 2005.10.28 06:26:00 - [423] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda I don't understand where the entire "bomber > battleship" logic comes from. Should see the frig > BS thread _____________ VHI - Frigate Specialists / Gankz0rs
Rob Boberton	Posted - 2005.10.28 14:55:00 - [424] Also, in response to those who would ask that the other race's bombers get another launcher point, I would say that I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if the gallente carrier can carry 50% more drones even though they're supposed to be the whole point of carriers. Cause that's what gallente do.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.10.28 17:25:00 - [425] Originally by: Razner Cerizo Should see the frig > BS thread I know. My point is that one bomber isn't going to kill a BS, just like one inty isn't going to kill a battleship solo...well, maybe the Raven.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.10.28 21:09:00 - [426] Originally by: Rob Boberton Also, in response to those who would ask that the other race's bombers get another launcher point, I would say that I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if the gallente carrier can carry 50% more drones even though they're supposed to be the whole point of carriers. Cause that's what gallente do. Oh joy, I can't wait for us to get a fair bonus at capital ship level
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.10.28 21:11:00 - [427] a 10 bomber pack with the new changes would be a very dangerous thing. imagin this: 30 BS are camping a gate. the bombers jump in from an opposit gate and warp to a point just outside the grid of the gate the camp is at. they all cloke at start heading for the gate. takes about 10min for them to get there but the gatecampers would have no clue. then all of a sudden all 10 uncloak near one of the sniping battleships at close range. they all lock unload a vollley killing the ship and recloak and move on to there next target. the camping fleet would have no choice but to move on or face being killed off one by one with little chance of stoping the bombers need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more info
Ulipotiy	Posted - 2005.10.29 03:34:00 - [428] The probleme is the bomber is very, very hard to catch, i prefer come whith lot of BS to moving a camp of BS, using cloack bomber. Cause i say again : bomber is a no fight ship, and no fight = no fun. In 0,0 it's ok, you can use warp bublle to catch them, ect, but when you are in war in empire?
Cemial	Posted - 2005.10.29 15:31:00 - [429] Quote: a 10 bomber pack with the new changes would be a very dangerous thing. imagin this: 30 BS are camping a gate. the bombers jump in from an opposit gate and warp to a point just outside the grid of the gate the camp is at Any BS can add up to 20.000 HPs with Shield + Armor + Structure. 10 Manticores could launch 30 Cruise missiles in a single volley ( 20 with any other SB ). 30 Cruise Missiles, being generous, can make about 300 DPs to a BS each to a total of 30 missile x 300 DPs/missile = 9000 DPs. 10 Manticores would need 3 or more rounds to take a BS, giving the campers enough time to react and kill them all. If they run away after a single round their attack is useless. Lets think in Isk, every single manticore in that 10 ships stealth fleet would cost about 50 to 80 M isk. How many of them do you have to take to balance the loss of a BS? Now consider the loot is left behind by the survivor manticores. Since missiles were ôadjustedö, Cruise missiles are only effective against BS size ships. Why donÆt you use some smaller ships to protect your BSs against possible stealth attacks? Stealth bombers capable of launching a real surprise attack will make you adapt your tactics so that you can counter an enemy that can be anywhere at anytime, which is scary but, there is no fun without fear. Adapt? Rethink? Tactics? Small ships protecting BSs? Im just so naiveà
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.10.29 22:45:00 - [430] Originally by: Cemial Quote: a 10 bomber pack with the new changes would be a very dangerous thing. imagin this: 30 BS are camping a gate. the bombers jump in from an opposit gate and warp to a point just outside the grid of the gate the camp is at Any BS can add up to 20.000 HPs with Shield + Armor + Structure. 10 Manticores could launch 30 Cruise missiles in a single volley ( 20 with any other SB ). 30 Cruise Missiles, being generous, can make about 300 DPs to a BS each to a total of 30 missile x 300 DPs/missile = 9000 DPs. 10 Manticores would need 3 or more rounds to take a BS, giving the campers enough time to react and kill them all. If they run away after a single round their attack is useless. Lets think in Isk, every single manticore in that 10 ships stealth fleet would cost about 50 to 80 M isk. How many of them do you have to take to balance the loss of a BS? Now consider the loot is left behind by the survivor manticores. Since missiles were ôadjustedö, Cruise missiles are only effective against BS size ships. Why donÆt you use some smaller ships to protect your BSs against possible stealth attacks? Stealth bombers capable of launching a real surprise attack will make you adapt your tactics so that you can counter an enemy that can be anywhere at anytime, which is scary but, there is no fun without fear. Adapt? Rethink? Tactics? Small ships protecting BSs? Im just so naiveà Actually, considering the bonus Stealth Bombers have to hit smaller sig radius tagets with cruise missiles, it would be the smaller ships that would be in the greatest danger... not the BS. To me that is more their role, alpha strikes on cruisers and frigates (other than ceptors that are using MWD, as they are nigh invulnerable to stealth bombers due to their high speed). Well, of course haulers are at risk, but I'm speaking more of fleet operations here. I would send that flight of Stealths to lend support fire on the BS in the enemy fleet sure, but by themselves they would not be a significant threat to a BS fleet.
Szordin	Posted - 2005.10.30 05:01:00 - [431] well I didn't read the entire 14 page thread. But to me, if the ship is named "bomber" why do any of them have turret slots at all? just give them all missle hardpoints. I'd like to see all of them be able to put 4 cruise launchers, or 2/3 siege. I envision them working more like submarines, than bombers. Removing the delay might be a step in the right direction. but I can only imagine the amount of whines, and of course the sudden increase in bomber sales.
Odin Tahmorrex	Posted - 2005.10.30 07:57:00 - [432] Admittedly, i didn't take the time to read the 15 pages of posts on this forum, so i doubt anybody will read this. However, being a Manticore pilot, yes i find the delay annoying, though not really THAT much of a hindrance. My real beef is that it is a COVERT OPS ship and can't use a COVERT OPS cloak. Seems that if a ship is labeled covert ops, it should have some ability to warp while cloaked, actively spying. Any gank ship can sit and cloak... speaking of bonuses... the 'speed' bonus brings the ship up to normal frigate speeds when cloaked... woop de doo. The same bonus to flight speed, used with a cloak that doesn't nerf speed might be better- allowing the ship to reach frigate afterburner speeds instead of indy with an afterburner speed. However, i must say the damage bonus is great, though not overpowered since there's still 13 seconds between launches. No need to buff that up at all, or nerf it for that matter. Prolly been said before, but it's my 2 isk.
MrJordanIOI	Posted - 2005.10.30 09:20:00 - [433] Originally by: Odin Tahmorrex Admittedly, i didn't take the time to read the 15 pages of posts on this forum, so i doubt anybody will read this. However, being a Manticore pilot, yes i find the delay annoying, though not really THAT much of a hindrance. My real beef is that it is a COVERT OPS ship and can't use a COVERT OPS cloak. Seems that if a ship is labeled covert ops, it should have some ability to warp while cloaked, actively spying. Any gank ship can sit and cloak... speaking of bonuses... the 'speed' bonus brings the ship up to normal frigate speeds when cloaked... woop de doo. The same bonus to flight speed, used with a cloak that doesn't nerf speed might be better- allowing the ship to reach frigate afterburner speeds instead of indy with an afterburner speed. However, i must say the damage bonus is great, though not overpowered since there's still 13 seconds between launches. No need to buff that up at all, or nerf it for that matter. Prolly been said before, but it's my 2 isk. Agree 100% with the covop cloak thing ! Bombers should be able to use it. IOI
Jouyn Fethan	Posted - 2005.10.30 11:22:00 - [434] well im all up for the timer changes wouldnt mind seein some more cap on the bombers and maybe being allowed to warp in cloaked but not out as for all the crap about not being able to fit, just train the skills, i got my perfect fit now with 3 launchers on line so , im happy enough dont really think the other bombers should have 3 launchers if u want the king bomber train for it ! nothing much else to complain about really i have come to terms with my manti, and no how to fly it ;) booise jouyn
QwaarJet	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:20:00 - [435] Edited by: QwaarJet on 31/10/2005 11:23:34 Originally by: Forlani Ive only just started looking at getting a stealth bomber, but from what i can see the manticore is the way to go. Even though ive basicly only trained in gallante ships the gallante stealth bomber isnt up to the manticore, maybe if the gallante one could use torps it would make it an interesting option. But i dont want a manticore clone, i want a good trade off in ships so that their all good at on thing, but that is different to the others. As a Nemesis and Manticore pilot I can tell you that is completely untrue.Nemesis can be just as good as the Manticore.Have you looked at everything? Manticore moves like a Battleship Manticore has horrid cap(can't run damps for long, as well as bad warping times) Manticore gets Kinetic damage bonus, which is pretty useless VS Gallente and Caldari, the 2 most popular races. Ok, then the Nemesis. Nemesis moves like a cruiser Nemesis has decent, but not amazing cap Nemesis gets a thermal bonus, which is less tanked than many would think, and although still not great against Gallente and Caldari, is generally a better overall damage type. And asking it to use torps is just.......uh.Get yourself a bomber and use it for a month before making comments like that.Bombers are NOT anti-battleship weapons.You would need a fleet of them to kill a BS.It kills cruisers very well and can also kill most frigates with ease, except for the Interceptor, which can still be taken down easily if you set up right(web, damper, nos(optional)) Bombers need a few stat tweaks, but nothing major.None of this covert ops cloak or torp stuff.It's fine the way it is. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:35:00 - [436] Originally by: QwaarJet Nemesis gets a thermal bonus, which is less tanked than many would think, and although still not great against Gallente and Caldari, is generally a better overall damage type. And asking it to use torps is just.......uh.Get yourself a bomber and use it for a month before making comments like that. Bombers are NOT anti-battleship weapons.You would need a fleet of them to kill a BS.It kills cruisers very well and can also kill most frigates with ease, except for the Interceptor, which can still be taken down easily if you set up right(web, damper, nos(optional)) Bombers need a few stat tweaks, but nothing major.None of this covert ops cloak or torp stuff.It's fine the way it is. They were testing having hybrid short range ammo doing much more thermal than kinetic damage on the test server not too long ago. The result was that Gallente ships became underpowered, even though theoretically they should've done more damage. The reason was that, indeed more people tanked Thermal than Kinetic. Also, I think you're a bit on the wrong side of thinking here. If the bombers get torps, you redefine their role as anti-BShips. You DO NOT enhance their role as the fourth anti-friggy 'ceptor. You'll also be forced to take away their explosion radius mutator in order to enforce this behaviour. Essentially giving Stealth Bombers the role of anti-battleship would be perfect for them as the only viable counter would be small ship support fleet, thus enhancing combat in a new way for non-bombers, too! What is an interceptor, if you consider it's bonuses? It's a fast anti-small ship frigate. What is an assault ship, if you consider it's bonuses? It's a slow but durable anti-small ship frigate. What is the stealth bomber, if you consider it's bonuses and it's hidden bonus? It's a stealthy anti-small ship frigate. Does this seem... right to you? Where's the frigate that's supposed to go up against cruiser (granted, AF does this marginally well)? The frigate that's to be used agaist battleships? The frigate that is specialized in tactical EW? I can not but say that CCP failed with the concepts of the T2 frigates. They had such wonderful opportunities. Interceptor - tackler with prop jamming bonuses. Weak to AF AF - anti-frigate guardian (needs a second frigate bonus, really). Weak to larger ships due to immovability SB - anti-battle/capitalship. Weak to AF and Inties. Teleportation device? Used to highjack other's ships? We had one. It was destroyed by friendly fire, though.
RedClaws	Posted - 2005.10.31 11:39:00 - [437] indeed : no covert ops cloak, it would make the normal covert ops useless.
Kintac	Posted - 2005.10.31 12:02:00 - [438] Originally by: Cemial Quote: Lets think in Isk, every single manticore in that 10 ships stealth fleet would cost about 50 to 80 M isk. These are market prices. Built price is around 7 million
Hulemand	Posted - 2005.10.31 18:09:00 - [439] Why not give the Stealth bombers a powergrid bonus to all missile types and a racial damage bonus aswell? They wont be able to fit more than 1 single seige launcher if any at all, but you'll be able to fit heavy missiles for hunting cruisers etc..
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:00:00 - [440] Originally by: RedClaws indeed : no covert ops cloak, it would make the normal covert ops useless. Unless "normal" Covert Ops are boosted in some other area, such as EWar. Teleportation device? Used to highjack other's ships? We had one. It was destroyed by friendly fire, though.
RedClaws	Posted - 2005.10.31 19:58:00 - [441] I'd like a huge boost to scanprobes then... like 90% less scantime (since now scanprobes are useless against a decent enemy (they run when they see them on scanner) or maybe a bonus to scan resolution so we can use the 12 AU's orso and still land 60km from them
Sartaron	Posted - 2005.11.01 00:29:00 - [442] Edited by: Sartaron on 01/11/2005 00:36:18 Edited by: Sartaron on 01/11/2005 00:34:31 mmmmhhh just thinking about the future... i think cm are not the appropiate weapon for a bomber. for future releases you might think of a special weapon(some kind of real bomb) that has to be released from very close range and the bomber has to use its stealth ability to approach the target. which should only be bs and bigger... Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: RedClaws indeed : no covert ops cloak, it would make the normal covert ops useless. Unless "normal" Covert Ops are boosted in some other area, such as EWar. agreed.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.01 09:17:00 - [443] Well, my experience of bombers so far is that they are absolutely laughable when I'm in a BShip. One of those dreaded Manticores barely scratched my shields and merely the 4 drones I had left in bay (think they all were Hammerheads) was enough to drive it away since my turrets couldn't hit reliably. As long as they do the damage of one third cruise missile Raven, they're really no threat to battleships. If they are in large packs - guess what? They'd do a much better job if they had one cov ops and the rest in cruisers at a safe. Teleportation device? Used to highjack other's ships? We had one. It was destroyed by friendly fire, though.
Cheechako	Posted - 2005.11.01 10:11:00 - [444] Edited by: Cheechako on 01/11/2005 10:17:33 Edited by: Cheechako on 01/11/2005 10:13:32 Yup having had a manti for a while... I think I like the proposed changes... Not being able to warp cloaked is one of our biggest weaknesses. As it is if you get put on the defensive you're in a world of hurt. SBs are not meant to fight it out. Its two get 1 or two volleys off and leave before the enemy can lock. This means that the enemy can also run away if you don't have tacklers. All in all very balanced IMO. It takes a few seconds for missiles to hit from 80 KM. Also, our SBs do get racial dmg bonuses... Which I think is alright.. I still usually use 1 Paradise and 2 Wraths in my boat. So, sorry to whoever said they want stand up fights with a SB because, thats not what they are for. They are hit and run ships and thats pretty much it. Very specific ships. I like em. I don't think they should be designed to take down BSs. If you look at it, neither are most other T2 frigs. A T2 stealth bomber cruiser has a much better chance of being a SB with torps for BSs. Maybe that should be an idea for the Cloaking T2 Cruiser. Edit: Actually I really like the idea of a T2 caracal(insert other races cruiser) with torps meant to take down BSs and other HACs. Probably quite expensive, a lot of skills to train to use and again, a very specialized ship with probably paper thin armor/shields.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.01 10:15:00 - [445] Originally by: Ithildin Well, my experience of bombers so far is that they are absolutely laughable when I'm in a BShip. One of those dreaded Manticores barely scratched my shields and merely the 4 drones I had left in bay (think they all were Hammerheads) was enough to drive it away since my turrets couldn't hit reliably. As long as they do the damage of one third cruise missile Raven, they're really no threat to battleships. If they are in large packs - guess what? They'd do a much better job if they had one cov ops and the rest in cruisers at a safe. The only way to actually hurt a BS with single bomber would be to find one thats NPCing and has found an Inty spawn. Then the bomber can jam/dampen it and start shooting missiles at the unresisted damage. Going up against a PVP BS is just a joke. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Word	Posted - 2005.11.02 12:04:00 - [446] Flying Hound, but training up for Manticore. (alt logged on lol) Let's talk about a few cool things that SBs actually do. 1600ms burst speed WHILE CLOAKED. That is awesome, no other ship can do this. Insta-warp: (as in, click "warp to" and you are warping!) Align to object while cloaked, then be ready on cloak button (to decloak) and "warp to" selected, you can insta warp away. (Beware, if you're not aligned, you will have to wait.) It's opposite of (real) Covert Ops frig cloak operation, so be careful of SB habits when you fly the real covert ops II. NPC: THE only frig that can take down elite cruiser spawns. The hound can actually clear out a 0.0 belt from 130km as long as BS dont show. PVP: Well sort of. Chase away harrasing interspetors/scouts. Lock at 90-130km, fire off cruise. If you have the precision mssl skill, speed and sig radius bonus to inty will be reduced. First, the inty is suprised to be locked at sniper distances. Then they see cruise coming at them. Now if the inty has balls, they try to "intersept" you, well , hit cloak before he can lock you, before 30-40 km (if they can survive 2 vollys of cruise), depending on how close you want to make it. To Hammer, Atm, with two sensor boosters, I can decloak and lock in 3 seconds. That is already pretty good. I would like to see: Lock WHILE cloaked, balanced with: Decloak to fire weapon. Be able to cloak WHEN locked by enemy, balanced by: Unable to fire weapon. Reason , the SB has NO defences! 2 hits and poofffft! You simply cannot take a hit, that's it. (bonus to install armor plating would be nice, with no speed decrease) Thanks, keep up the good work.
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.11.02 12:27:00 - [447] Originally by: Word To Hammer, Atm, with two sensor boosters, I can decloak and lock in 3 seconds. That is already pretty good. Since when? I'm pretty sure there is (currently) a recal time of at least 10-12 seconds.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.02 13:59:00 - [448] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Word To Hammer, Atm, with two sensor boosters, I can decloak and lock in 3 seconds. That is already pretty good. Since when? I'm pretty sure there is (currently) a recal time of at least 10-12 seconds. And lock what? A MWDing Dreadnaught? And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.02 19:21:00 - [449] Edited by: Munin Crow on 02/11/2005 19:28:40 I am just going to add my 2 cents and ask that the ships other than the manticore be brought up to par with the manticore... then again I am a fairly new player and probably don't have much of a right to speak, but just looking at the fitting options I don't see a reason to take anything other than the manticore so far. Personally, I think stealth drone/gunboats/laserships for the other races would be a lot more intresting than a stealth bomber for each...
Cheechako	Posted - 2005.11.03 06:20:00 - [450] Well, it would be nice for the Caldari missile boat to have an edge over the other missile boats considering we're a missile race. I prefer they stay the way they are. The manti has horrible cap and flies pretty heavily compared to the other bombers from what I've heard.
nico wurz250	Posted - 2005.11.03 08:38:00 - [451] A greater missle range would be nice, 150km with all skill to 5 are not enough to hold the manticore out of range . .
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.03 12:33:00 - [452] Originally by: nico wurz250 A greater missle range would be nice, 150km with all skill to 5 are not enough to hold the manticore out of range . It is when you use two sensor dampers or tracking disruptors. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.11.04 11:38:00 - [453] please do fix the other bombers to have 3 launchers atm im training caldari frig to 5 just to use the manticore, i can already use the nemesis, kinda stupid if everyone only flys manticore isnt it please fix it, or ppl like me will spend 1 week more just to upgrade to the manticore +50% dot is crazy advantage
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.04 13:53:00 - [454] Exactly. Sure, the caldari are the missile race, but each race should have one cloaked attack ship of equal power and utility. There should be a reason for each race to want to fly their cloaked ship. Each should have one area where it excelles over the others. I would rather have versatility and have a cloaked gunboat for the minimatar, cloaked lasership for the amarr, cloaked droneship for the gallante, and cloaked missile boat for the caldari. Its just that at the moment, the way the weapons work, unless they make some sort of special (and variable) interaction with each type of weapon and its cloak, the only type of weapon that is really usefull with a cloak is the missile. The Caldari might be the missile race, but at the moment, I too plan on training up my caldari frigate skill just to be able to fly the manticore. Everyone flying a manticore is sort of lame. I would rather fly a cool minimatar cloaked gunboat of some sort. Idea's like having the ship cloak between each volley of fire (making it harder to lock onto/keep a lock on the ship) are the type of ideas that I thought sounded cool. I'll leave it to the devs and the veterans to figure out what is the best fix... I just want to make sure there is some reason for me to want to fly my races ship. P.S. Is there any chance of getting the minimatar model on the cloaked attack ship changed? The hound has the ugliest model in the game. It looks like a flying radio station. I realize the rifter model is overused already (because of the jaguar and the wolf), but perhaps use the probe or slasher model then? I don't know. ANYTHING but the one it is now.
Mowz	Posted - 2005.11.04 15:56:00 - [455] Originally by: Munin Crow Edited by: Munin Crow on 04/11/2005 14:45:00 Exactly. Sure, the caldari are the missile race, but each race should have one cloaked attack ship of equal power and utility. Each race should have one armor tanked drone ship of equal power and utility. See how stupid that sounds? Plz go back to your uberness and leave the few advantages caldari have left. kthx.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.04 16:09:00 - [456] Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Word To Hammer, Atm, with two sensor boosters, I can decloak and lock in 3 seconds. That is already pretty good. Since when? I'm pretty sure there is (currently) a recal time of at least 10-12 seconds. I'm suspecting that there's a bug with the sensor booster and the cloaking device. Essentially you can activate the sensor booster before you cloak and then cloak (keeping the sensor booster effect until you decloak) Not sure if it's just some off rumour, though, as I don't fly these things. Thermal drones do +25% damage than explosive drones. If you can't understand this, then don't comment drones
GC13	Posted - 2005.11.04 19:11:00 - [457] Edited by: GC13 on 04/11/2005 19:13:08 Originally by: Mowz Each race should have one armor tanked drone ship of equal power and utility. See how stupid that sounds? Plz go back to your uberness and leave the few advantages caldari have left. kthx. Wow. Okay class, can you say logical fallacy? Saying "cloaked attack ship" is NOT like saying "armor tanked drone ship." It's more like saying "combat-oriented battleship" or "tackling frigate" or even "logistical cruiser." Really, you were way specific, while his statement was quite general. And as a Caldari, I'd be quite happy to see every race have a worthwhile cloaked combat ship. Let me have my cloaked missile ship, and you use something else, dang it!
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.04 23:07:00 - [458] Well, GC 13 said it Mowz. You need to learn how to READ. You see, I said cloaked ATTACK ship, and not STEALTH BOMBER, for a reason. I am totally happy with Caldari having the best STEALTH BOMBER. I am totally happy with the other ships NOT getting a boost to missile abilities at all, and instead being changed to better reflect the tactics of their individual races. I am also totally happy with them getting a slight boost to missiles... not enough to make them better than the caldari ship, just enough to put them in competition range. What I don't want to see is only one stealth attack ship worth flying in the game... a Caldari one. Give me a cloaked Minimatar gunboat, a cloaked gallante drone ship, and a cloaked Amarr laser tank. Thats fine with me. Just give me something for each race which makes that races cloaked ship worth flying. If itÆs too complicated to create vastly variable mechanics for each race, then just boost the other races missile powers to the point where they can COMPARE. Not exceed. Not be equal to. COMPARE. Being able to deal between 40 and 65% more damage than any of the other cloaked attack ships is not comparing. ItÆs blowing out of the water.
HelterSkelter	Posted - 2005.11.04 23:30:00 - [459] Edited by: HelterSkelter on 04/11/2005 23:33:07 one way to equalize the different SB's while maintaining the caldari missile edge would be to give all the races 3 launchers while changing the caldari bonus to a rof or all dmg bonus. would equalize the dps while allowing the caldari the advantage of targeting there oponents weakness' edit. a rof bonus should be coupled with a cargo bay boost though
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2005.11.05 11:48:00 - [460] I don'y thinka cloaked droneship would really work. The SBs are frigates with BS sized weaponary, so what would the drone ship have? Absurdly large drone bay? I'd rather have a hybrid ship. And yes, Manticore is overpowered, since it does everythign better than any other stealth bomber. It's funny how all Caladari whined about Thorax being "t3h ub3r" and better at everythign than any other cruiser (wich it wasn't) and now when somebody tells that manticore can do %0% moe damage than other SBs they just say "S0 w0t? We wanna b uber t00! Train to fly 1!"
bundy bear	Posted - 2005.11.07 00:23:00 - [461] Originally by: Mowz Originally by: Munin Crow Edited by: Munin Crow on 04/11/2005 14:45:00 Exactly. Sure, the caldari are the missile race, but each race should have one cloaked attack ship of equal power and utility. Each race should have one armor tanked drone ship of equal power and utility. See how stupid that sounds? Plz go back to your uberness and leave the few advantages caldari have left. kthx. The way i see it is caldari is a missile race. Thats why caldari ships are best when it comes to using missiles. Gallente are a drone race they are best when it comes to drones. Each race has different tactics and designed their ships accordingly. But with stealthbombers they are all designed for the exact same thing. The gallente stealthbomber doesnt have drones or the amarr one doesnt have tank. This is a type of ship where its launcher is everything. I know other races dont favour missiles as much as caldari but when it comes to a purely missile ship they are not using drones and tank and are focussing entirely on missiles so the caldari 50% is just not justified. I think 25% is much more reasonable.
Lygos	Posted - 2005.11.07 06:35:00 - [462] So, it's still going to use the non-warping cloak and/or they can still carry a scan probe launcher (or two)? I'm beginning to think the cloaking ability is still entirely unnecessary. There are not many situations where it is a useful idea to sit in wait for an enemy. Therefore, I think more love needs to be given to situation engineering than to the actual ship for which it exists. "Hey, look at this belt. Let's camp right here invisible until some miners get a jetcan setup." Even without local, this would not work. The scan probe launcher and travelling cloak combo would be fine for setting up an attack run. You scan, find, then cloak and warp to, setup a bm, leave, uncloak, warpto bm, lock, destroy. Eliminating just the locking times on a non-travelling cloak is still pretty useless. I may just be misinformed though. I deliberately avoided cloaking for a long time due to the whole class being roundly excoriated at the onset, so I have no first-hand knowledge. "Everything I love is combustible."
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.07 09:59:00 - [463] Scan probes is the more or less exclusive domain of the Covert Ops, NOT the Stealth Bomber. I.e. it (scanning) is the domain of the scout, not the attack ship. Thermal drones do +25% damage than explosive drones. If you can't understand this, then don't comment drones
Word	Posted - 2005.11.07 11:22:00 - [464] Originally by: Munin Crow Edited by: Munin Crow on 04/11/2005 14:45:00 One option would be to give each race a 15-20% bonus to their racial damage type except for the manticore which would keep a 5% damage bonus. That way, the manticore is still the best missile boat... If everyone was firing their prefered damage type, the manticore would still have a 25%-35% damage bonus over all the other ships. Even if the manticore chose to use the damage type of another ship, it would still have a 10%-20% damage bonus. But at least there would be a reason to use other bombers for their damage types. It's just a thought. Maybe a vet can find some reason why it's a bad one. Yes! Minmatar SB, 2x 1400IIs instead of cruise! This is the fix, do it now please! btw, yes, with 2x sensor booster II and Covert ops Lvl 5, i can decloak, punch on all modules and launchers to standby, select target from 135 km, and click the target icon twice,then lock on the third click, count at normal pace, 1..2..Lock n' fire. that's why the description says "in the hands of the right pilot", even with Lvl 4 skills the SB can really suck. The difference between totally useless and having utiliy.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.07 11:32:00 - [465] Originally by: Word that's why the description says "in the hands of the right pilot", even with Lvl 4 skills the SB can really suck. The difference between totally useless and having utiliy. Maybe. But that is not acceptable to me. Ships should be good at level IV, and excellent at V. People would not accept Interceptors or Assault Frigates needing their respective skills at V just to not suck. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Mowz	Posted - 2005.11.07 15:40:00 - [466] The fact is, certain ship classes have obviously superior ships attributable to certain races whether you want that to be the case or not. There is no better industrial than the iteron V. No drone ship compares to the dominix. All ewar ships have to bow down to the scorp. Given that, if you don't think that the hound with its better slot layout, damage bonus, and speed is a viable alternative to the manticore you're insane. Giving all bombers racial guns will make the manticore comparatively useless at the range SBs work at whereas now they're all similar with the manti having a slight edge. Why would they have anything less than the best bomber when Caldari invented cloaking? Leave the ships as-is except for removing the delay timer.
Dukot II	Posted - 2005.11.07 19:48:00 - [467] Edited by: Dukot II on 07/11/2005 19:53:03 Edited by: Dukot II on 07/11/2005 19:48:42 Originally by: Lygos I'm beginning to think the cloaking ability is still entirely unnecessary. There are not many situations where it is a useful idea to sit in wait for an enemy. Therefore, I think more love needs to be given to situation engineering than to the actual ship for which it exists. "Hey, look at this belt. Let's camp right here invisible until some miners get a jetcan setup." Even without local, this would not work. The scan probe launcher and travelling cloak combo would be fine for setting up an attack run. You scan, find, then cloak and warp to, setup a bm, leave, uncloak, warpto bm, lock, destroy. Eliminating just the locking times on a non-travelling cloak is still pretty useless. I may just be misinformed though. I deliberately avoided cloaking for a long time due to the whole class being roundly excoriated at the onset, so I have no first-hand knowledge. After flying battleships for so long... there is something deeply satisfying about NOT being seen by those who would blow you up if they SAW you... And how 'bout "Hey look at that pirate in a frigate over there... let's blow him up!!!"
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.08 02:51:00 - [468] Originally by: Mowz The fact is, certain ship classes have obviously superior ships attributable to certain races whether you want that to be the case or not. There is no better industrial than the iteron V. No drone ship compares to the dominix. All ewar ships have to bow down to the scorp. Iteron V is best industrial, but the other races have better lower rank industrials to compensate for it, the Iteron is the worst until you get to level V, so it's balanced. Drone ship and ECM ship arnet a classes of ships that all races have, they have T1 BSs tho, and the T1 Gallente BS is on par with the T1 Caldari BS (the Scorpion), just one happens to be drones, the other ECM, they are on par with eachother. They added SB class, the 4 races should again be balanced with eachother. Just like they shouldn't make a Caldari Titan completely suck and the Minmatar one the best ship in game, they should both be equal, but different. Just like you can have a drone ship as one races T1 BS and a ECM ship as another races T1 BS, they are different but equal. Quote: Given that, if you don't think that the hound with its better slot layout, damage bonus, and speed is a viable alternative to the manticore you're insane. Giving all bombers racial guns will make the manticore comparatively useless at the range SBs work at whereas now they're all similar with the manti having a slight edge. Why would they have anything less than the best bomber when Caldari invented cloaking? Leave the ships as-is except for removing the delay timer. That's fine, if they make another class of ship for the other races, and give Caldari a version that just sucks in comparison on those. When they make carriers, make the Gallente Carrier 50% better than the Caldari one in the primary way important to being a Carrier ship, just as the Caldari SB is 50% better in the primary way important to being a SB than all the other races SBs.
Mowz	Posted - 2005.11.08 14:49:00 - [469] Originally by: Kaell Meynn That's fine, if they make another class of ship for the other races, and give Caldari a version that just sucks in comparison on those. When they make carriers, make the Gallente Carrier 50% better than the Caldari one in the primary way important to being a Carrier ship, just as the Caldari SB is 50% better in the primary way important to being a SB than all the other races SBs. I believe the class of ship you're referring to is called "dreadnoughts and cruisers and industrials and HACs"
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.11.08 18:07:00 - [470] Can we get a comment from CCP on this thread ? ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Ademaro Imre	Posted - 2005.11.08 19:15:00 - [471] My idea is to allow the Stealth to warp while cloaked - but at a great targeting penalty if used during a warp. Only when at a 0.0 speed for some amount of time, greatly reduce the time to target penalty of cloaking devices.
Dracon Vidi	Posted - 2005.11.08 23:11:00 - [472] WOW. all i can say. WOW!! Right now they are an expensive toy with no practical application. They are soft, have no first strike ability, the cloak on them is awfull. maybe fit them with the COVERT OP cloak since they are a COVERT OP ship? then you would have fullfilled my fantasy
bundy bear	Posted - 2005.11.09 05:05:00 - [473] When comparing ships like battleships this is how i think Dominix has the best drones. This is because its a drone ship. Scorp has the best EW. This is because its an EW ship. Raven has the best missiles. This is because its a missile ship. Now when you see stealth bombers just because manticore is a missile ship doesnt mean it has to be 50% better because the rest are missile ships aswell. Give the other stealthbombers something to make up or bring the other CLOSER to the manticore in DMG.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.09 07:53:00 - [474] Originally by: Mowz Edited by: Mowz on 08/11/2005 15:15:07 Originally by: Kaell Meynn That's fine, if they make another class of ship for the other races, and give Caldari a version that just sucks in comparison on those. When they make carriers, make the Gallente Carrier 50% better than the Caldari one in the primary way important to being a Carrier ship, just as the Caldari SB is 50% better in the primary way important to being a SB than all the other races SBs. I believe the class of ship you're referring to is called "dreadnoughts and cruisers and industrials and HACs" edit: excepting, of course, blackbirds. Which are pretty cool for cruisers. Dreads I bet will be tweaked, they are still brand new. Cruisers the Caldari do great at what they are made for, no points there, unless you can name me a better ECM cruiser or a better mining cruiser in the game. The Badger II is way better than the Iteron III in both combat and hauling, caldari industrial advantage is access to good haulers with very minimal training, as opposed to gallente with the worst industrials at every tier, but best if you commit yourself to training them. HACs, well, I agree to some extent that Caldari HACs kinda suck, but they're revising missiles, especially mid-range ones, specifically those that would be used on a HAC to account for this. That the HACs are not balanced is seen as a problem they want to fix. Like HACs, Stealth Bombers should be fixed.
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2005.11.09 09:09:00 - [475] Originally by: Lygos Even without local, this would not work. The scan probe launcher and travelling cloak combo would be fine for setting up an attack run. You scan, find, then cloak and warp to, setup a bm, leave, uncloak, warpto bm, lock, destroy. Eliminating just the locking times on a non-travelling cloak is still pretty useless. That is not entirely correct. -Stealth bombers cannot warp cloaked, only covops can. -The elimination of cloacking times is a huge difference. With good skills, a SB takes some 12 seconds for targetting after uncloacking; that is engough time for anything small to lock first and start shooting, and for something large to start getting away. No recalibration time would allow a SB to uncloak, target and start using its mids, for warpscrambling, EW tricks, and start pounding right ahead. The "lets wait until somebody comes along" does work; in belts, and in gates. Point is, with a 12 second delay it becomes either almost suicidal or useless. - Something's brewing - Coming before next full moon
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.09 13:42:00 - [476] Again, I am not going to argue with Mowz... I am only say that bear got to it first. Just because 1 type of Caldari ship needs a fix does not mean that other ships that need fixes should not get one two. I don't care how its done, I want the other SB's to be COMPARABLE (not better, not necessarily even EQUAL, just COMPARABLE) in damage to the manticore.
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.11.09 16:21:00 - [477] to all those caldari that want their uber bomber vs teh otehr races people like me will just train caldari frig 5 to use the manticore over the other bombers, that will push the manticore price up even more than it is currently, do u want that?? might aswell eitehr give all bombers 3 launchers or change manticore to 2 launchers even if the NEW manticore gets a +25% bonous compaired to other bombers ppl will just train the 5days mroe needed to sue manticore they ahve to be balanced dmg wise, or everyone and his dog will fly manticores and no one will fly the otehrs
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.11.09 18:14:00 - [478] Edited by: Grey Area on 09/11/2005 18:15:11 Too many pages to read all of them...simple question... Will there still be a delay before they can RECLOAK again? I don't mind being pounced on as long as I get my chance to pounce BACK Edit: Either way I foresee gatecamping squads made up of five manticores...gulp ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.11.09 21:58:00 - [479] As I understand it CCP are going to : Originally by: CCPHammer We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay from cloaking devices fitted to stealth bombers next patch. The reactivation delay will still be there.
Amraa Nelee	Posted - 2005.11.10 04:52:00 - [480] Why are Stealth Bombers unpopular compard to Interceptors and Assaults? One of the things that is missing in the bombers is flexability. Lets take the manticore for instance. Its not a souped up Kestrel like we would want it to be. That's not what it is, so Kestrel fans that want a tech 2 Kestrel can't rejoyce like say.... Merlin fans... who have 2 choices! Agreed that the target locking delays should go as planned in the patch. You have to have that or the ship can't do its job. Personally, I don't think that they should be able to cloak while warping because that totally kills the reasons to have a regular covert ops ship (buzzard in this example). Though I did like someone's idea on cloaking after entering warp so you can go in unannounced. That would be nice. But forget all that for a moment and lets talk about the ship itself. Why do we love the Kestrel? Its FLEXIBLE! People love ships that can be reasonably successful no matter the situation that you put it in (the thorax for insance). Yes we love the specialized ships too, but we don't fly them as much and nobody wonders why. With the Kestrel you can fight with it and do excellent damage but its not an uber fighter, you can do small trade and hauling runs but its not an indy, you can tackle with it but its no interceptor. But the Manticore? Its a one trick pony. EVE has already said they are surprised the Bombers are not more popular. Okay lets look at the down sides. 1) Its frusterating to warp in. So leave the "cloak while warping" out of the equation and give them the ability to warp the same distances as a Kestrel. That's no bid deal and is the same as a Kestrel with a cloaking device. 2) You can't carry anything with it. So increase the cargo bay. Its can't cloak when warping so its really no better for a sneak hauler than a Badger with a cloak. I mean... why not? 3) Cruise missiles. Okay great, but suddenly missiles suck in EVE so nobody cares about cruise missiles. DON'T take off the missiles, then it wouldn't be a kestrel. But DO make the ship more flexible. Give it 5 high slots and 4 missiles hardpoints. But DON'T allow it to fit more than 3 cruise missiles (MAX), that would be too Uber. But what if you want to use standard launchers, you should be able to use the same amount as the Kestrel! Also, what's wrong with giving it the ability to mount 3 ASSAULT LAUNCHERS instead of the cruise launchers! That would be an incredibly flexible ship, but no more powerful than the cruise version because its just as specialized and you have to get a LOT closer which is risky. Or even the abilty to mount a single torpedo launcher? I mean, how popular would a Manticore be if it could mount... 3 Assault Launchers & 1 Standard 3 Cruise Launchers (MAX!) 2 Cruise Launchers & 1 Assault 2 Cruise Launchers & 2 Standard 4 Standard Launchers 1 Torpedo launcher & 2 Standard Launchers and no... that's not all the possibilities because these are EVE players we are talking about. They will figure something else out! (Post if you have an idea!) I think that its not about the cool things that this or that ship can do. Its about how much we love the ships. I still have the first non newb ship that I ever bought, a Condor. When I want to go tech 2 with that I have the Crow and man what a step up! I used to fly merlins all the time and boy when I got a Harpy I was fat dumb and happy. But the mighty Kestrel? THE MOST POPULAR SHIP IN EVE? Its tech II equivalent is not a kestrel at all. Who mourns for the Kestrel? The stats on who is flying what tell the story far better than I could. I hope that the designers of EVE take this plea seriously, as Frigates are the most fun ships to fly in EVE. Safe skies to you all. -Am
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.10 06:05:00 - [481] I actually think it should be able to cloak while warping... this is why. The covert ops ship needs to cloak while warping so that it can scout without being seen. The stealth bomber needs to be able to cloak while warping so it can get the jump on other ships. Thats the reason stealth bombers exist... not to camp a spot, but to fly up to a target, and get the jump on them. That is not going to happen if every time you warp in everyone can see that you are there. Just my 2 cents.
brain NET	Posted - 2005.11.10 09:02:00 - [482] Please oh Please sort out the power Grid and CPU, removing the targetting timer delay would be a Bonus!!
Lexa A	Posted - 2005.11.10 12:24:00 - [483] Just fix them make them balenced remove the turret slots on nem and give extra laucher GAH
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.11.10 16:09:00 - [484] Originally by: Gronsak that will push the manticore price up even more than it is currently, do u want that?? Why, yes I do kind sir -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Magunus	Posted - 2005.11.10 20:58:00 - [485] Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Gronsak that will push the manticore price up even more than it is currently, do u want that?? Why, yes I do kind sir Hrm... why do I have the feeling your views may not be unbiased? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Ecco Storm	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:48:00 - [486] Originally by: Munin Crow I actually think it should be able to cloak while warping... this is why. The covert ops ship needs to cloak while warping so that it can scout without being seen. The stealth bomber needs to be able to cloak while warping so it can get the jump on other ships. Thats the reason stealth bombers exist... not to camp a spot, but to fly up to a target, and get the jump on them. That is not going to happen if every time you warp in everyone can see that you are there. Just my 2 cents. Then no one would fly the Covert Ops ship. You'd have hundreds of players scrambling to fly them and play U-Boat captain with the end result that there won't be anyone to shoot at since everyone will be cloaked. I know the idea sounds all well and good on paper but it would go from a nerfed ship to overpowered overnight. No thank you.
KillmAll187	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:53:00 - [487] I agree. Leave the Manticore alone in terms of launcher slots. Caldari is the missile race so they should have the upper hand with them. Just as Gallente should always have more drones than others.
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.10 23:19:00 - [488] Edited by: Munin Crow on 10/11/2005 23:21:09 Quote: Then no one would fly the Covert Ops ship. You'd have hundreds of players scrambling to fly them and play U-Boat captain with the end result that there won't be anyone to shoot at since everyone will be cloaked. I know the idea sounds all well and good on paper but it would go from a nerfed ship to overpowered overnight. No thank you. You fly the Covert Ops ship to scout, not to fight. Its why it is quite a bit faster than the Stealth Bombers. Also, I don't see why everyone would be flying a Stealth Bomber. It would still only have 2 or 3 cruise missile spots, and sub par armor, shields, and hull HP. People who like getting the jump on people, and picking their fights, will fly stealth bombers. People who like lots of guns and the ability to tank will fly assult ships and battle ships. Also, from what I understand, there will still be a re-cast timer on the cloaking device... so its not like people can drop out of cloak, attack, and then recloak before people can target them... which means if you pick a fight wrong, that assult or battleship might have been a much better choice to fly. I also think that the stealth bomber ships should keep their small cargo hold. People should not be using them to make stealth trade runs... or if they do, they should not be able to carry all that much from place to place.
Lygos	Posted - 2005.11.11 00:26:00 - [489] Edited by: Lygos on 11/11/2005 00:28:29 Well, the Stealth bombers must have over 250 cpu for a reason. I believe that reason must be for scan probes. (and an offline one for the 5th slot) This seems much more important to me than the cloak. I view the non-warping cloak as simply a tool for evading detection while logging off, or simply while safespotted. Ergo, the Stealth Bomber is primarilly a tool for logoff tactics. It is not a tool for sneaking into enemy territory, hitting something frig style, and then departing. It doesn't usurp the role of the CovOps because it does not have the scan probe duration bonus. CovOps should probably get a scan range bonus too. CovOps should be good (better) for beating that 6 minute timer on non-aggressing targets, while the bomber has almost no chance. I don't really care one way or another what is done with the Bomber, but changing the lock timer simply won't markedly affect its general strategic role in the absence of other paired changes. If they wanted to, CCP could eliminate the cloak bonuses and just reduce the sig radius of the ship ala interceptors and still have a similarly functioning vessel. "Everything I love is combustible."
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:11:00 - [490] Originally by: KillmAll187 I agree. Leave the Manticore alone in terms of launcher slots. Caldari is the missile race so they should have the upper hand with them. Just as Gallente should always have more drones than others. So you are perfectly fine with Gallente Carriers being 50% better than all other races Carriers? If that turns out to be the case, then SBs are fine, sure... if they balance all the races Carriers, then SBs are clearly a problem.
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.11.11 10:28:00 - [491] Originally by: Lygos Edited by: Lygos on 11/11/2005 00:28:29 Well, the Stealth bombers must have over 250 cpu for a reason. I believe that reason must be for scan probes. (and an offline one for the 5th slot) This seems much more important to me than the cloak. I view the non-warping cloak as simply a tool for evading detection while logging off, or simply while safespotted. Ergo, the Stealth Bomber is primarilly a tool for logoff tactics. It is not a tool for sneaking into enemy territory, hitting something frig style, and then departing. It doesn't usurp the role of the CovOps because it does not have the scan probe duration bonus. CovOps should probably get a scan range bonus too. CovOps should be good (better) for beating that 6 minute timer on non-aggressing targets, while the bomber has almost no chance. I don't really care one way or another what is done with the Bomber, but changing the lock timer simply won't markedly affect its general strategic role in the absence of other paired changes. If they wanted to, CCP could eliminate the cloak bonuses and just reduce the sig radius of the ship ala interceptors and still have a similarly functioning vessel. Have you ever tried fitting a Stealth bomber ? Belive me, with a cloak fitted the CPU gets eaten up fast by launchers, ecm and other neccessary mods. An Improved Cloak II uses 60 TF for instance.
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.11.11 12:48:00 - [492] Originally by: KillmAll187 I agree. Leave the Manticore alone in terms of launcher slots. Caldari is the missile race so they should have the upper hand with them. Just as Gallente should always have more drones than others. dont you understand u caldari lamer it only takes a bomber pilot 5 days to train from one of teh other bombers to the manticore u just need cal frig 5 so what is gona happen is that no one will use any bomber except the manticore cos its way over powered atm i mean i have trained cal frig 5 just so i could use the manticore, i can already use the galante one but wanted the manticores 3rd slot now cant you see if this stays as it is, you will get everyone into a manticore and none of the other bombers that is just stupid, 4 bombers but everyone flys the manticore. its not a super specilised ship like a t2 kitted BS, just 5 days more to get into a manticore vs otehr bombers, that is why its critical taht they are balanced.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:02:00 - [493] Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: KillmAll187 I agree. Leave the Manticore alone in terms of launcher slots. Caldari is the missile race so they should have the upper hand with them. Just as Gallente should always have more drones than others. dont you understand u caldari lamer it only takes a bomber pilot 5 days to train from one of teh other bombers to the manticore u just need cal frig 5 Actually it takes 2 weeks, since Frigate is a rank 2. Gets a bit better because everyone has better attributes than I do, so the avarage would be about 10-11 days. Gonna do a j0sephine here Just as Gallente should always have more drones than others. Yes, so don't come whine when the Gallente Carrier and Mothership is 33.3% better than all other Carrier class ships out there. I mean, we're the carrier race, right? We're supposed to dominate the whole "Rapid battlefield deployment", "Command carrier" and "Big ass attack ship" thing? I'd rather not. I'd rather each race had it's quirk that made them just as good, but in a completely different way. I wish there were more fun skills with Memory as primary. Poor Intaki combat people with low perception...
Wizzard Rage	Posted - 2005.11.11 22:47:00 - [494] I think the bombers should be able to warp while cloaked. otherwise, what makes them better than fitting a cloak on a battleship.
FFGR	Posted - 2005.11.12 01:08:00 - [495] I just wonder why people don't get it that the manticore has to get 3 launchers because that's the design of the race and that's what they specialize in ... Hello, can I get my XXX AF tank like the Retribution ? No ? Why not ? Oh, that's because that Amarr ships tend to have great durability (be good at tanking) Hello, can I get my XXX Interceptor to fly as fast as the Claw ? No ? Why not ? Oh, that's because that Minmatar design their ships for speed Hello, can I get my XXX HAC deal as much damage as the Deimos ? No ? Why not ? Oh, that's because Gallente design their ships for as much damage as they can Anyone gets it yet ? Every race has it's advantages and disadvantages. I fly Manticore and Hound atm. Asking for a 3rd launcher on the rest SB is like asking any of the above. Live with the advantages and disadvantages that every race has. And for the gazzilionth time NO COVERT OPS CLOAK ON THE STEALTH BOMBERS
Kyozoku	Posted - 2005.11.12 01:13:00 - [496] I think the other bombers should be given something to make them unique rather than nerfing the manticore. Like make the hound much faster than the others and give the purifier a bit of tanking ability.
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.11.12 12:38:00 - [497] Simple Things To note Manticore has 50% more BURST dmg. This is enough for people to spend the 5-7days needed to use a manticore. One good suggeston was to give all the bombers 3 launchers and manticore rof bonous, this would work as ppl really only want the burst dmg. If the bombers are not balanced what will happen? simple, everyone will train for caldari BECASUE IT DOESNT TAKE LONG If the galante carrier is 50% better than the otehrs, there is no option to train from caldari to galante cos it would take bs5 and lots of otehr specilised **** SO bombers need to be balanced or all we will see is manticores
Derran	Posted - 2005.11.12 16:51:00 - [498] Not sure if it was mentioned but maybe an increase in stealth bomber cargo bay might be nice too? It can't hold alot of cruise missiles.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.12 17:28:00 - [499] Gronsak: Never underestimate the need for powergaming. If the Gallente Carrier/Mothership is 25% better than the others, then expect to see at least 25% more Carriers/Motherships being Gallente than any other race. Especially the Motherships will be only Gallente as they are a one-per-corp things (in cost), meaning it'll be used by one of the directors and a Gallentean specialized director to get maximum effect out of it. Originally by: Derran Not sure if it was mentioned but maybe an increase in stealth bomber cargo bay might be nice too? It can't hold alot of cruise missiles. Look in the missile thred. The cruise missiles will probably get decreased by half (or something) in size. I wish there were more fun skills with Memory as primary. Poor Intaki combat people with low perception...
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.12 18:32:00 - [500] Edited by: Munin Crow on 12/11/2005 18:38:13 You see FFGR, I'm not sure how some people don't get the fact that if the Caldari bomber is just THAT much better than all the other bombers, NOBODY will want to fly another bomber. Or the fact that if they cant jump up on another ship, they canÆt really work as intended. I did some calculations. All these calculations are assuming that a pilot has 5 skills in both Frigate AND covert ops. Now... a Caldari bomber gets 25% bonus to damage to its damage type, and 3 launchers. Other bombers get a bonus of 25% to their damage type, and two bombers. Say each missile does 100 damage (I am making up this number up because it is easier to calculate with. Its not a real bomb damage). That means that a race with its damage type using 2 missiles will deal 250 damage. The caldari, using their damage type, will deal 375 damage. The Caldari, using another damage type will be doing 300 damage. ThatÆs 30% more damage in another races damage type, and 100% more damage if the manticore is using its damage type and the other ship is using its damage type. (If both ships are using kinetic damage, the manticore is doing something like 80-90% more damageà) In other words... NO reason to go for another race's stealth bomber ship AT ALL. Turrets are useless on these ships. If you are using a turret, you are doing something wrong. The tactic you want to use is volley missiles, and re-stealth. The missiles range is so much larger than a small turrets, that there is no point to use them at all. Yet all missile ships except for the Caldari get a bonus to their small turrets in some wayà Doing some math, I think the simplest fix to this problem is to change the bonus that the frigate skill gives to all ships BUT the Manticore. Remove the small turret bonus damage or CPU or whatever else is granted by all the ships, and replace it with another 5% damage to whatever damage type that ship does. That would mean that Caldari could manage a total of 25% bonus to their damage type with 5 ranks in the required skills, and other ships could manage a total of 50% bonus to their damage type with 5 ranks in the required skills. The result would be that a non caldari ship will do (again, using the fake 100 damage number) 300 damage in their damage type, and the Caldari will 375 damage in their damage type. A Caldari ship using another races damage type will be doing 300 damage. That means that Caldari will be doing equal damage in other races damage types, but will spend a little more isk per shot. If the Caldari are using their chosen damage type, they will be doing 25% more damage than any other race (but in Kinetic type of damge instead of thermal, EM, or explosive). THAT is fair. Equal with all the other races in the other races damage types. Better in their damage types. And other ships lack whatever the second small bonus manticores get from covert ops skill as well (I cant remember what it is offhand).... The solution is simple. Change the bonus granted to small turrets from frigate skill to a second 5% damage in the racial damage type for all non Caldari ships. Leave Caldari ships as is. Another added bonus of this change... It requires both covert ops and frigate to be at 5 ranks to really take effect. In other words, Caldari, being the missile race, can get better at using their missile boat faster. Or at least can get better at making their missile boat do high damage faster. When a Caldari pilot with 5 ranks in frigate and 1 rank in covert ops starts using his missile boat, and another race with the same ranks starts using theirs, the Caldari boat will shine. Once both get both skills up to five, the other races boat becomes more in line with the Caldari boat, while still not overshining the Caldari in his area of expertise... missiles. Another option would be to do something so that it is possible for each race to mount some sort of turret with the same range as the missiles. Then they could volley one round of turret fire along with their round of
FFGR	Posted - 2005.11.12 21:11:00 - [501] Well, let's work on 3 missile slots for all races then with caldari getting a rof bonus. Amarr bomber : Frig Bonuses : pg bonus stays 10% reduction changes to 5% em missile damage per lvl CO Bonuses : em missile damage changed to pg reduction cloak speed bonus remains Caldari bomber : Frig Bonuses : pg bonus stays 5% kinetic missile damage changed to 5% rof of cruise missile launcher CO Bonuses : pg bonus stays cloak speed bonus remains Gallente bomber: Frig Bonuses: pg bonus stays hybrid damage changed to 5% thermal missile damage per lvl CO Bonuses: thermal missile damage changed to pg bonus cloak speed bonus stays Minmatar bomber: Frig Bonuses: pg bonus stays proj damage bonus changed to 5% expl missile damage per level CO Bonuses: expl missile damage changed to pg bonus cloak speed bonus stays I think this includes them all ... From a first view now the Manticore (caldari bomber) is the most useless... Why ? Because now ALL the other bombers have more powergrid,more lowslots to fit damage mods, can warp further, are faster with and without a cloak engaged, take less time to align, lock faster (but a bit less range that doesn't really matter when you will uncloak at 5km of the target...) and be able to have more burst damage than the Manticore since it has a rof bonus now and I don't think that the enemy will stand still and wait for the second wave of the missiles Now this is screwed ... We could ofc change the base pg bonus of the bombers to be better so the pg bonus on the CO level to be changed to something else I would like now some mature and responsible answers on this
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.12 22:22:00 - [502] Edited by: Munin Crow on 12/11/2005 22:27:26 Edited by: Munin Crow on 12/11/2005 22:22:18 Well... I started a new thread on racial balance... but I really DON'T think that the other races should get a third missile slot. And like you said, I am worried that the changes you listed might hurt the Manticore a bit too much. I don't want to see the Manticore become the worst ship! Indeed, I think only one very small change needs to be made. They should remove the CPU or damage bonuses granted from the frig skill to small turrets, and replace that with a second 5% bonus to damage to a races damage type of choice for all non Caldari ships. IE: All non caldari ships would get a 5% racial damage bonus from both frig and cov-ops skill. My logic as to why, the math that I believe proves that this change would racially balance the ships, and all my reasoning can be found here: (In case other people post there, I am refering to the first two posts made by me.) [link]http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=246952[/link]
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.11.12 23:17:00 - [503] If you want to balance the SB, either give them all +1 launcher and grid+cpu to fit that or change the damage bonuses. I prefer the first solution since all the stealthbombers would benefit.
FFGR	Posted - 2005.11.13 02:57:00 - [504] click for the bored ones
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.11.13 05:09:00 - [505] "Yes, so don't come whine when the Gallente Carrier and Mothership is 33.3% better than all other Carrier class ships out there. I mean, we're the carrier race, right? We're supposed to dominate the whole "Rapid battlefield deployment", "Command carrier" and "Big ass attack ship" thing?" Hi, am Moros. like my drones? No one else can store that many of them and have them hit so hard. And my regular weapon damage output is second only to that of Minmatar, too. Gallente are supposed to dominate the drone field. Because of this yes, i fully expect the Gallente carriers to be able to store more drones than the carriers of any other race. Amarr likely to come second with Minmatar hot on their heels, and Caldari dead last. But since there's nowhere said Gallente are also supposed to dominate "rapid battlefield deployment" (a brand new concept in EVE) or "big ass attack ship" (that's Amarr, if anyone) ... i don't see the issue. Drone bay capacity- and drone bonus-wise the order for carriers might well go Gallente-Amarr-Minmatar-Caldari. The ability to store amount of player gear might on the other hand go in complete reverse: Caldari-Minmatar-Amarr-Gallente (Caldari do have the freighter with most capacity) And suddenly you have situation where every version of carrier is better for something. ... back to the bombers -- i guess the problem is simply due to these ships being one-trick pony in their very design. They uncloak and shoot missiles, and that's pretty much it. Because of this, there's really no room left for them to play with, to give some of them more of 'something else' in order to make them all equally useful (contrary to the aforementioned carriers) Because of this? in the end and all things re-considered i'd be probably inclined to make them more similar to each other... if just to shut people up about that whole "wahwahwaaahhh Caldari have better missile ship not fair" thing. give all bombers 4 high slots: 3 launchers + utility slot. Give them all the same fitting bonus so they can actually use these launcher slots. then play with the layout of other slots and other attributes to give the ships their usual racial flavour (Caldari: 4 med, 2 low, lot of shield, no armour, long range, slow lock time... Amarr: 2 med, 4 low, lot of armour, small shield... etc) then get rid of the explosion radius bonus they have, and give them straight bonus to cruise missile damage instead. So they can actually try to take chunks out of large ships like bombers are supposed to, as opposed to trying to insta-gank frigates and running when they fail ¼¼;; (oh and then get rid of Moros' drone advantage, seeing how all ships are supposed to be equally good in their given field. j/k. maybe.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.13 11:58:00 - [506] Originally by: j0sephine Hi, am Moros. like my drones? No one else can store that many of them and have them hit so hard. And my regular weapon damage output is second only to that of Minmatar, too. Not to nit-pick but if you look closer you'll see that the Moros is the least damaging against POS, even worse than the Phoenix that's using non-Kinetic torps (because of resistances) Quote: back to the bombers -- i guess the problem is simply due to these ships being one-trick pony in their very design. They uncloak and shoot missiles, and that's pretty much it. Because of this, there's really no room left for them to play with, to give some of them more of 'something else' in order to make them all equally useful (contrary to the aforementioned carriers) Because of this? in the end and all things re-considered i'd be probably inclined to make them more similar to each other... if just to shut people up about that whole "wahwahwaaahhh Caldari have better missile ship not fair" thing. That's the easy way out. There are several ways of making them all unique. Examples: 1. Give the on-Caldari a good turret advantage, where the Caldari has it's lesser missile advantage (this is balanced as missile and turret advantage doesn't go hand in hand in application) 2. Reform the bombers to become bombers instead of the current Stalin Organ they are (Stalin Organ is an unguided missile launcher that was used to barage enemy infantry by spraying a large area with missiles from a-far). 3. Make the racial difference more pronounced. The Amarr one much better at tanking with a greater cap advantage. The Minmatar one very much faster and smaller. The Gallentean one extremely more damaging at very close range. Just making everyone the same is just boring. Oh, and it is possible to give them Covert Ops cloak if: a. Covert Ops gets a boost in order to keep them useful b. The 10-second no-lock time of Cov Op Cloak is retained c. The 30-second no-recloak time is retained d. The cloak speed bonus is decreased and balanced for the Covert Op Cloaking Device II. e. A few more BPOs of the previously mentioned module is released I wish there were more fun skills with Memory as primary. Poor Intaki combat people with low perception...
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.11.13 15:28:00 - [507] "Not to nit-pick but if you look closer you'll see that the Moros is the least damaging against POS, even worse than the Phoenix that's using non-Kinetic torps (because of resistances)" Since the towers have racial-specific resistances and shield hardening arrays are available for the starbases, would expect the final resistances to be quite even across the board, really... o.O "That's the easy way out." Pretty much; it's simple solution, because these are simple ships... and overcomplicating it starts to either render things silly ('stealth bomber' that's actually turret sniper, wtf) or make people disregard the whole thing and just go back en masse to what they perceive as best.
Lord Savage	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:21:00 - [508] Originally by: Magunus Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Gronsak that will push the manticore price up even more than it is currently, do u want that?? Why, yes I do kind sir Hrm... why do I have the feeling your views may not be unbiased? cough he owns an manticore bpo cough
Myeye's inPF	Posted - 2005.11.14 10:48:00 - [509] I havent seen anyone address this in the post so far.. Why not bring back the ability to fire and cloak before impact... Real "stealth bombers" deliver their payload without ever being seen... lets keep the cpu, the paper thin armor and the terrible warping distance and give us the abilitys that the name implies
Aeakos	Posted - 2005.11.14 11:08:00 - [510] Originally by: Gronsak to all those caldari that want their uber bomber vs teh otehr races people like me will just train caldari frig 5 to use the manticore over the other bombers, that will push the manticore price up even more than it is currently, do u want that?? might aswell eitehr give all bombers 3 launchers or change manticore to 2 launchers even if the NEW manticore gets a +25% bonous compaired to other bombers ppl will just train the 5days mroe needed to sue manticore they ahve to be balanced dmg wise, or everyone and his dog will fly manticores and no one will fly the otehrs I totally disagree with adding another launcher to the other races bombers. Caldari are the missile specialists and it should stay that way (the whole point of 3 lauchers on the Manticore). If you want an extra launcher, then train in Caldari frig. So what about the prices, they can still be manufactured for the same cost. Aeakos
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:00:00 - [511] Originally by: Ithildin Gronsak: Never underestimate the need for powergaming. If the Gallente Carrier/Mothership is 25% better than the others, then expect to see at least 25% more Carriers/Motherships being Gallente than any other race. Especially the Motherships will be only Gallente as they are a one-per-corp things (in cost), meaning it'll be used by one of the directors and a Gallentean specialized director to get maximum effect out of it. Originally by: Derran Not sure if it was mentioned but maybe an increase in stealth bomber cargo bay might be nice too? It can't hold alot of cruise missiles. Look in the missile thred. The cruise missiles will probably get decreased by half (or something) in size. good point and i agree, but this is a simple firg everone can fly easilly so its not really the same thing maybe i should of compaired it to the BS, if say the tempest was way uber like by 50%, i couldnt just switch cos i can use large t2 rails and blasters and have bs5 in gal but cant even use mini crusiers, so for me to switch would take me at lest 6 months, but the bomber is different, even if its 20% better in its application ppl will just spend the 5days needed for caldari frig 5, and everyone will fly manticores give it a rof bonous, that way they all have same burst dmg which is what 90% of us are looking for
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:13:00 - [512] IMO the arguing should stop at this point, i mean its only gona take those who cant use manticores 5-7days to train to use tehm so i suggest that we all do that, get into a caldari bomber cos it doesnt take much time at all HUMM i think ill buy 5 manticores now before they reach 30mils a pop. BTW ppl taht use arguments like the following are so short sighted and ignorant. " I totally disagree with adding another launcher to the other races bombers. Caldari are the missile specialists and it should stay that way (the whole point of 3 lauchers on the Manticore). If you want an extra launcher, then train in Caldari frig. So what about the prices, they can still be manufactured for the same cost. Aeakos" will be funney when our bomber fleet warps into another bomber fleet and all we see are manticores. BTW those nubtards arguing about the mo0ros dred advantage with its drones, how many times have u fought in a moros, its not a public ship, so u cant use that as a fair example.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.11.14 14:29:00 - [513] "BTW those nubtards arguing about the mo0ros dred advantage with its drones, how many times have u fought in a moros, its not a public ship, so u cant use that as a fair example." Ship rarity is a temporary thing, and means squat. Just take a trip to empire, and count the supposed-to-be-rare freighters at each gate. Or compare number of battleships now, and few months after the game launched...
Munin Crow	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:25:00 - [514] Originally by: Aeakos I totally disagree with adding another launcher to the other races bombers. Caldari are the missile specialists and it should stay that way (the whole point of 3 lauchers on the Manticore). If you want an extra launcher, then train in Caldari frig. So what about the prices, they can still be manufactured for the same cost. I have started to bang my head every time I read this. Its amazing how many people don't actually READ the thread... LISTEN to what people or saying... or choose to rid themselves of LOGIC. NOBODY IS ASKING TO HAVE THEIR SHIP BOOSTED TO A POINT WHERE IT IS BETTER THAN A MANTICORE, THEY ARE ASKING FOR CCP TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL THE BOMBERS ARE GOOD ENOUGH THAT THERE IS A REAL REASON TO FLY EACH OF THEM. EVEN IF IT WERE TO BE THREE LAUNCHERS FOR EACH SHIP, PEOPLE WOULD STILL LIKE TO SEE A BONUS ADDED TO THE MANTICORE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CALDARI HAVE SOME SORT OF MISSILE EDGE. IF THE MANTICORE REMAINS 87% to 50% MORE EFFICIENT IN BURST DAMAGE THAN ALL OTHER STEALTH BOMBERS, IT WILL BE THE ONLY SHIP PEOPLE FLY. Maybe the big letter will help. Although, in all honesty, Uuve made a pretty good point in another thread. With the supposed upcoming changes, if it is possible to uncloak within range of some long range small turrets (still shorter than cruise range, but whatever), burst out two shots and two missiles, and then recloak before the target can get a lock on you, then I am happy with two small turrets. For some reasin, I am just a little worried that this tactic still wont work (even with the upcoming changes). I guess we will see.
Darmed Khan	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:14:00 - [515] I'd just like to say one thing. Quote: 2005.11.14 17:11:38 notify You cannot perform that action at this time as your systems are still recalibrating after the use of a cloaking device. Arg!
Draconis Red	Posted - 2005.11.15 01:01:00 - [516] Please excuse me if this has already been said, but i've read the first 5 pages of this thread, and have an idea (and im not a programmer so i don't know if this would be hard to implement): Have it so that the bombers can recloak after firing and their missiles stay on target, but have it so that concord can still fire on cloaked ships (eg. play it like they have an anti-cloak sensor or something [if you wanna roleplay it]), this way ppl can use the bombers as, IMO, they should be able to, 'strike and fade', but it stops pirating in high sec space. Just a thought
Romulus Maximus	Posted - 2005.11.15 09:22:00 - [517] I really think all bombers have 3 launchers is bad tbh. Yes, by all means boost the other in some way. SO that they have advantages of flying. But u cant just start making all ships have same launchers etc. I havent checke dall stats,but say some other bombers have an extra mid over manti,and then it gets a 3rd launcher. Ppl will the moan manti has fewer mids etc. Every ship in eve should have reason to fly it. But they should not all have equal stats. If ppl think the manti is so uber,stfu and train for it. But i know enough ppl who are happy flying the others,and dont feel out of place in a SB group. I agree maybe boost the others in some way to make them similar,but not by a 3rd launcher
Deteis Kane	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:54:00 - [518] Edited by: Deteis Kane on 15/11/2005 12:57:20 I haven't had a chance to read every post but removing the timing restrictions on the stealth bomber seems a great idea. i trained for a stealth ship a long time ago but i was really disappointed to find that the only thing that was worth using was the Buzzard because the Manticore was useless. for an Elite Stealth Bomber it jus wasn't so its a gr8 idea go for it CCP :) But i'm not saying they should give the caldari an unfair edge because as some1 just commented it would lead to an unfair advantage which isn't right to be fair Quote: From the stars we came, to the stars we return, we commemorate these bodies to the deep. Deteis Kane
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.11.15 18:59:00 - [519] Originally by: Draconis Red Have it so that the bombers can recloak after firing and their missiles stay on target, but have it so that concord can still fire on cloaked ships (eg. play it like they have an anti-cloak sensor or something [if you wanna roleplay it]), this way ppl can use the bombers as, IMO, they should be able to, 'strike and fade', but it stops pirating in high sec space. Strike and fade...cool. Now tell me how you are supposed to defend against this tactic...? Groovy CURVES, and the SPREADSHEET that made 'em
Midaka	Posted - 2005.11.16 14:36:00 - [520] Strike and fade... with high skills, a Manticore can take out an NPC Frigate in one Salvo... assuming you're playing to the NPC's weakest damage resist. A Manticore can take out a cruiser in about 3 salvos or less... No one has mentioned or complained (I might have missed a post or two this is a long thread...) about the fact that once a Manticore is locked it can't cloak again... Given the effective striking range of a Manticore's cruise missiles and targeting system, I would think that a good interceptor pilot has a descent chance of catching one, if he or she is paying attention. And like many other aspects of this game, if you don't have the right equipment to deal with a particular situation, you're screwed! Whether you're piloting your favorite uber battleship, but forgot that one (...or two) stupid warp core stab(s)... or that ECCM module to overcome someone's jamming... etc... In fact, I think there should be a cloak jamming MODULE to prevent people from cloaking (just like there is a cloaking module, which takes up a high slot on the ship)!! Not simply the fact that if a Manitcore gets target locked, it's screwed... Also, there should be an anti-cloak bubble as well (just like there's an anti warp bubble)... fly through it and they can see you... or better yet, your cloak drops and wonÆt go back up... that would be evil! How 'bout an anti cloak smartbomb? Of course these ideas would go along with removing delay timers when un-cloaking, as well supporting strike and fade tactics for missile sorties, warping while cloaked, and removing cloaked folks name from local... ...unless they decide to talk (...jeez, if this happensà keep æyo mouth shut when in local!!! :p ). Let's make this whole stealth thing really robust and more close to "reality", if we're gonna do it at all! And yes I love my Manticore... ...but these changes would really keep us all on our toes. IMHO... ...Mida
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.11.16 19:28:00 - [521] Originally by: Midaka Edited by: Midaka on 16/11/2005 14:38:30 In fact, I think there should be a cloak jamming MODULE to prevent people from cloaking (just like there is a cloaking module, which takes up a high slot on the ship)!! Not simply the fact that if a Manitcore gets target locked, it's screwed... Also, there should be an anti-cloak bubble as well (just like there's an anti warp bubble)... fly through it and they can see you... or better yet, your cloak drops and wonÆt go back up... that would be evil! How 'bout an anti cloak smartbomb? Hmm, you dont understand cloaking very well, I can see that. If your ship gets locked, cloaking cant happen. If you get within 2000 metres of any object, you uncloak.
Midaka	Posted - 2005.11.16 20:13:00 - [522] Originally by: Brute Helmet Originally by: Midaka Edited by: Midaka on 16/11/2005 14:38:30 In fact, I think there should be a cloak jamming MODULE to prevent people from cloaking (just like there is a cloaking module, which takes up a high slot on the ship)!! Not simply the fact that if a Manitcore gets target locked, it's screwed... Also, there should be an anti-cloak bubble as well (just like there's an anti warp bubble)... fly through it and they can see you... or better yet, your cloak drops and wonÆt go back up... that would be evil! How 'bout an anti cloak smartbomb? Hmm, you dont understand cloaking very well, I can see that. If your ship gets locked, cloaking cant happen. If you get within 2000 metres of any object, you uncloak. I "fly" (read: walk in and out of gate camped 0.0 space at will...) a Manticore. I know that when you get locked you can't cloak again until the lock is released. For example, if you are ratting, and an NPC locks you, can't cloak again until the NPC is destroyed or you need to warp out. I know that a de-cloak will occur when you are within 2000 meters of another object. I know that there are delays for module activation after de-cloaking. I know that there is a delay on re-cloaking after de-cloaking. My point is: An opponent's ability to warp out is not inhibited when he/she is target locked by another player. It takes the utilization of a module specifically intended to inhibit that warp. This, in turn requires that a slot be given up for the purpose of warp scrambling. In the case of preventing an opponent from cloaking, NO MODULE IS REQUIRED. Which means that player A gets to inhibit player B's ability to cloak... FOR FREE, on top of whatever other modules player A might happen to have on his/her ship to inhibit player B's other abilities. In contrast, the ability to cloak REQUIRES a module. Which means it requires a slot. So far it seems to me that, in this game, the inhibiting of an ability of another player has required the use of a module to do so. This doesn't hold true for inhibiting cloaking. As of now, everyone and anyone, from a shuttle pilot to a dreadnought pilot can inhibit cloaking! No modules required... That doesn't seem right. Then again... I might not understand target locking that well either...
Midaka	Posted - 2005.11.16 21:12:00 - [523] You know what, screw it... let's not bother balance off the whole cloak issue... let's just make the stealth bombers more powerful than they are now...
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.16 22:09:00 - [524] Yeah, but when you cloak you inhibit the other player from: Locking you thus shooting you thus jamming you thus scrambling you You're looking at it the wrong way. You are the one doing the inhibition. If he gets a lock you are just "out of range to activate module" sort of thing. Random 0-15km deviation on warp-ins? For the first time in 2 years I'm considering cancelling accounts.
Midaka	Posted - 2005.11.16 22:33:00 - [525] Edited by: Midaka on 16/11/2005 22:34:21 This is true... just wanted to throw some ideas in the pot... To tell you the truth, I like the way stealth bombers work, today... although other changes, delay timer removal, etc would be welcomed... It's just that when they do those changes some OTHER change usually gets thrown in to balance things off... I was looking at the balance. Not just the great changes. Honestly, if they just pull the delay timers, and allow missles to hit even if I re-cloak, I'll be happier for it. I mean the damn ship does have pretty weak protection outside of being cloak-able. ...Mida
Eats Children	Posted - 2005.11.17 08:30:00 - [526] Edited by: Eats Children on 17/11/2005 08:32:23 Originally by: CCP Hammer Or maybe even Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay..... I dont know if this has been suggested, but maybe... skills that improve recalibration time, scan res penalty and recloaking time for all ships, and give stealth bombers the ability to cloak while locked. This would make the stealth bombers formidable opponents rather than heavy missile fodder.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.17 13:25:00 - [527] Originally by: Eats Children Edited by: Eats Children on 17/11/2005 08:32:23 Originally by: CCP Hammer Or maybe even Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay..... I dont know if this has been suggested, but maybe... skills that improve recalibration time, scan res penalty and recloaking time for all ships, and give stealth bombers the ability to cloak while locked. This would make the stealth bombers formidable opponents rather than heavy missile fodder. And also quite invincible. So. When are these forums going live in game?
Chith	Posted - 2005.11.17 15:23:00 - [528] After having flown the Nemesis quite a bit in combat both solo and in a group, by some accounts the worst bomber available, I've come to a few conclusions and suggestions of my own: Is there truly any reason they need to be so unagile? They quite seriously have the agility of a cruiser. Please put them in the realm of frigates. Unlike others in this thread, I really do not mind the fact that the Manticore can deal out more damage with the extra missle slot. It pays for this in CPU. I do mind, however, that it gets a bonus which is actually relevant to the bomber, while the other 3 are left with turret bonuses. With regards to the calibration time, how about just reducing it on cloaking modules as a whole and leaving the cloaking skill bonus as it stands? This would prevent having a zillion "special case" bonuses for the bombers, which we are approaching. Even having a recalibration time of just 5 seconds on a bomber with cloaking 5 would be a dramatic improvement. The calibration time bonus would not have to be as dramatic if bombers had a better scan resolution. I've done my best to find the optimal role for bombers. I belive they are largely relegated to a support role in smaller-ship fleets. More lists! Like their covert ops counterparts, their primary role in fleets is to provide EW support. The damage output truly isn't spectacular at all, and is very comparable to other frigates (in many cases below that of other frigates). The long range quality of their damage lets them quickly assist other fleet members to start laying into the next target while safely conducting EW opeations. The cloak is purely a defensive measure. I do not agree with any ideas of allowing them to warp while cloaked at all. If local were changed and calibration times were to be reduced for cloaking in general, I might consider cloaking to have a hope of being offensive. So there you have it. All in all, they're a fun ship to fly, although you wouldn't know it considering their completely lackluster performance. Of course, the only reason it seems lackluster is because interceptors just rule so hard. Nerfing interceptor damage and making them just dedicated tacklers would go a long way in balancing out all frigs. If that is not done, yeah they need more damage.
HankMurphy	Posted - 2005.11.17 16:29:00 - [529] Hound 4tehW1N!!! screw the manticore, i dont need an equal playing field to win -Just ask your ex. Brutors do it better
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.11.17 16:33:00 - [530] Originally by: Magunus Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Gronsak that will push the manticore price up even more than it is currently, do u want that?? Why, yes I do kind sir Hrm... why do I have the feeling your views may not be unbiased? Are you questioning The Enslaver's integrity? He is simply trying to provide the highest quality product to the people. I for one applaud him. Currently Training: Suicidal Tendencies [Rank 8] 1,947,276/2,048,000 SP
GFLTorque	Posted - 2005.11.17 19:32:00 - [531] I know this is a bit off topic: PLEAZ add a module for covert ops ships that when activated allows them to WARP slower. Those of us that like to scan for ahem veldspar roids in warp could use the slower warp speed from time to time, PRIOR to the veldspar roids were looking for moving to a new safe spot. ok ty, move along now.
LiBraga	Posted - 2005.11.17 22:14:00 - [532] Sorry to have to disagree with the majority of you all, but your sounding like children not getting their own way. If you start adapting the races to match the might of the Caldaris Manticore then you majorly offset the balancing of abilities between them. For example, the Caldaris haulers are pretty much the worst of all haulers in the game, everyone knows an Iteron is far superior to a Badger Mk2, do they complain? No. Instead we train for the Iteron. If it means so much to you why not be a Caldari, but then you'll complain about some other class of ship from a different race.
MavricktheGreat	Posted - 2005.11.18 02:26:00 - [533] Edited by: MavricktheGreat on 18/11/2005 02:30:07 Edited by: MavricktheGreat on 18/11/2005 02:27:33 Edited by: MavricktheGreat on 18/11/2005 02:27:22 As a Nemesis pilot I could care less about a third launcher but give me something meaningful to make up for it! Lets say more armor, faster speed, more grid, extra low slot etc. (SORRY HAVING 1 EXTRA TURRET SLOTS DOES NOT EQUAL THE THIRD LAUNCHER ON THE MANTICORE) Make each race of bomber special in thier own way. For the Nemesis how about making it a close range bomber??? If all you see are people flying Manticore's then obviously the bomber situation is imbalanced. Now I fight close range in a Nemesis and have yet to loose against inty except to a skilled crow pilot. (Just think ouside of the box people!!) Oh another idea.....how about giving the Nemesis a bonus against fast moving ships?? Because honestly the below damage is pathetic against a crow mwd'ing at 5.5ms :( 2005.11.18 01:58:52 combat Your Cataclysm Cruise Missile I hits Manfred VonRichthofen [D.L.E]<IMP>(Crow), doing 0.3 damage.
The Wizz117	Posted - 2005.11.19 12:56:00 - [534] they should just remove the way over-nerfed way to big sig penalty! for cruise missiles: they should deal more damage at shorter range and use less cargo capacity. turrets kil stuf @ long range fast enough so that it is dead before it even can get in range, missiles can not do this. and all missiles deal to few damage on frigates. "yes"would the turret whiner say "your missiles always hit!" yes they indeed do for 0.7 damage @ short range and 5.7 @ long range. turrets deal way more damage on long range... i think missiles should be beter then turrets. and they are now actualy worse, missiles should be better becouse the caldari got alot of dis advantages in return: shield tanking: 20% less base resistance way less efficient the whole argumend aboud it boosting faster does not count, most raven pilots use large boosters wich boost just as fast becouse XL boosters use 4x as much fitting then a large booster. if u fit a XL booster and 6 torps you probitly can not fit much more.. (bcu's wich use to much cpu to?) -cap boosters: cap boosters use to much cargo cap to be fitted -those things that give 25% recharge rate bonus and -10% bonus to shield boost is just unfair. -raven has only 6 launcher hp with its main weapon. -the 10% velocity bonus is pretty useless i would prefere 10% bonus to cap or 5% more damege... -agility -mass -propulsion -slow targeting etc -missiles do not have tweaking modules or they suck: -bcu uses alot of cpu, can only be fitted on a raven with good cpu skilz -there are no things like tracking computers for the raven: target painters are designed for turrets, i remember one dev saying this himselve and i run some test with them, they only work effective on struckuters. on frigates it wil only increas your damage from 0.1 to 0.2 or 10.1 to 11.1. - turrets deal 2 difrend types of damage misiles don't the only good thing it has is +2 gravemetic sensor strenght wich is pretty.. useless. and some missile implants/harwdiring would be nice
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.19 13:50:00 - [535] Originally by: The Wizz117 <stuff> You're barking in the wrong thred. And not only that, you just don't have any idea what you are talking about, either. So. When are these forums going live in game?
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.11.19 21:05:00 - [536] Recal changes are on the test server. Sadly nothing else made it Maybe not yet
Kintac	Posted - 2005.11.20 09:26:00 - [537] Hm, someone just mentioned "BOMBERS" Are there any specifications on these, yet ? How can those be compared to e.g. Kestrel or Manticore ?
rexsum	Posted - 2005.11.20 13:40:00 - [538] dunno if this has come up before, but it seems slly forcing the other 3 races to train up missile skills, isnt it more usefull to let them use the second best long range gun of the group, like a 1200mm for minmatar, that would add some difference to the whole mix as well.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.20 15:35:00 - [539] Originally by: rexsum dunno if this has come up before, but it seems slly forcing the other 3 races to train up missile skills, isnt it more usefull to let them use the second best long range gun of the group, like a 1200mm for minmatar, that would add some difference to the whole mix as well. Uh no. Every race has ships that use all the weapon types. It just happens that CCP doesn't bother to make the mixed weapon ships any good. Also large turrets on a frig would be way to over powered. You could snipe with impunity. So CCP would either have to nerf the damage to hell or nerf the range to hell. At least missiles can have high damage, and high range, and not be the ultimate sniper weapon. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
rexsum	Posted - 2005.11.20 17:07:00 - [540] well i did suggest the second best gun type, wich would bring their damage and sniping abilety down a good notch
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.20 17:45:00 - [541] Originally by: rexsum well i did suggest the second best gun type, wich would bring their damage and sniping abilety down a good notch Not when you stick on some tracking comps and dmg mods. Using a bunch of gun bombers to snipe is far better then using a slow ass BS. And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.11.20 18:29:00 - [542] Originally by: theRaptor Originally by: rexsum well i did suggest the second best gun type, wich would bring their damage and sniping abilety down a good notch Not when you stick on some tracking comps and dmg mods. Using a bunch of gun bombers to snipe is far better then using a slow ass BS. Don't forget that it looks pretty stupid fitting large guns on a frigate... So. When are these forums going live in game?
Jon Hawkes	Posted - 2005.11.20 21:25:00 - [543] Originally by: rexsum dunno if this has come up before, but it seems slly forcing the other 3 races to train up missile skills, isnt it more usefull to let them use the second best long range gun of the group, like a 1200mm for minmatar, that would add some difference to the whole mix as well. Then there would be nothing to stop a Stealth Bomber decloaking, fring a volley of artillery off, and then recloaking before the target has acquired a lock. With missiles, you can do this, but the missiles will not reach their target due to travel time, which of course turrets do not suffer from. Free production, refining and POS tools
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.24 02:39:00 - [544] Originally by: Ithildin Don't forget that it looks pretty stupid fitting large guns on a frigate... Nah Large turrets on frigs look awesome. I think I still have a screen cap of a 425mm on my Manticore. So badass looking. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
0rigin	Posted - 2005.11.24 11:40:00 - [545] Edited by: 0rigin on 24/11/2005 11:46:00 am i to late?? can i suggest one too. i have been playing this game for 2 years pass already and never once said anything but try to adapt to the environmental changes. to challenge the survivalbility of my existance. changes was logical how kestrels use to be. the manticorreee' need more cpu and powergrid. lvl 4 on advance upgrade and lvl 4 on covert op. should be enough to fit all 3 launchers. and the cloaking device. the armor makes sence since caldaris are known for theyre shields. and see if you can move that useless high slot down to the middle slot. so give 5 med. =]] or am i just pusshing it... okay okay fine... just the grid and the cpu.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.11.25 01:55:00 - [546] Originally by: 0rigin the manticorreee' need more cpu and powergrid. lvl 4 on advance upgrade and lvl 4 on covert op. should be enough to fit all 3 launchers. and the cloaking device. You can. You just need named launchers if you want to fit anything in your mid slots. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him
Vyger	Posted - 2005.11.25 14:02:00 - [547] OK, I haven't read all 19 pages, but the topic does seem to have wandered some what from CCP Hammer's original post Is there an update somewhere in this thread that actually says whether this change will definately make it into the next patch or not?
VeNT	Posted - 2005.11.26 17:55:00 - [548] how long till this is IN?
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.11.26 20:58:00 - [549] The new bomber bonuses are active on Sisi right now, so I'd say its very likely they'll be part of the RMR patch.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.11.28 11:18:00 - [550] I've tested the stealth bombers on SiSi and the changes CCP Hammer mentioned make them quite useful. Its not as easy as it sounds to use them but I guess thats the balance with them.. if u do it right you will come out without a scratch, if u mess it up ur dead (a good example of risk vs reward I'd say). On the other hand though the amarr, gallente and minmatar ones still have the redundant turret bonus', you wont even have enough PG to fit turrets, not to mention you will never get a chance to use them. This still makes the caldari one the most dmging SB out there, and since the bombers are all about volley dmg this is quite unbalanced. I would be even happy if the minmatar one got a speed bonus, the gallente one a small reduction to signature radius and the amarr one a dmg bonus to EM missiles (we all know its the crappies dmg) per lvl, instead of these turret bonus'. That would make each bomber quite unique and still leave the caldari one with the most launchers. - What does the community and devs think about this suggestion? Website Killboard
Fuazzole	Posted - 2005.11.28 11:40:00 - [551] BOOOO!! u say the Manti still has 33% moer laucher AND the frigate rank Dmg bonus
Chith	Posted - 2005.11.28 15:40:00 - [552] The bomber changes as they stand do change bombers significantly, although it is frightfully annoying that the "cloaking" skill does nothing for one of two covert ops ships in game right now, and has only a marginal effect for the other. Would be nice if all recalibration delays were simply cut in half and the cloaking skill bonus be changed to something along the lines of 5% or 10% speed bonus while cloaked.
Declar Syncton	Posted - 2005.11.28 19:25:00 - [553] I would suggest removal of the cruise missiles (expects a beating for that) and adding the ability to launch same size of torpedo and smartbombs instead. If the frigate, possibly with the addition of some jamming, would have a chance to survive giving a CR or BS a portion of damage, but not taking it down, it would be like having a submarine ww2-style combat sort of. A single frig would only dent the capitals with torpedoes, but a wolfpack would hurt it bad, but without being totally safe from return fire. And if the BS has frig(s) or destroyer(s) the "subs" would have to plan for that too. Standoff "snipe" pop-firing cruise missiles f.o.f. or not and then just "retreat" into the shadows sounds like an awfull idea, that way too many might choose. If one should make a stand-off attack option it could be something like unguided missiles which would hard to detect until at very close range somehow, still with the use of the "sub". Keep in mind i have absolutely no practise with cruise/cloak/bombs or the like yet, so i might have misunderstood how it will work badly. Just a loose suggestion! Would be boring to have half the players crusing in cloaks with a safe launch ability on the poor souls who does¦nt cloak.
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.11.28 20:18:00 - [554] Ive also been testing the new stealth bomber on SiSi and its not bad at all. I like the changes, they add a lot of possibilities. Good job CCP! Would be very nice to have some additional cap and agility, plus a more level field between the races stealth bombers of course.
Filan	Posted - 2005.11.28 23:29:00 - [555] allow stealths to aquire a passive lock while cloaked, and then only have to decloak to fire and then let them recloak instantly. i mean an F117 is only risking high radar visibility when the bomb doors open. soon as the close poof its gone. sadly this idea would rock in fleet operations where cloak and dagger is part of the covert ops skill, but would end up as a Gank-o-matic in true gameplay.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.11.29 02:13:00 - [556] Originally by: Filan allow stealths to aquire a passive lock while cloaked, and then only have to decloak to fire and then let them recloak instantly. i mean an F117 is only risking high radar visibility when the bomb doors open. soon as the close poof its gone. sadly this idea would rock in fleet operations where cloak and dagger is part of the covert ops skill, but would end up as a Gank-o-matic in true gameplay. The stealth bomber concept is working fine as it is on SiSi atm. The only thing thats left is the imbalance between the different races' bombers, mainly the problem is the caldari one being more powerful than the others or better said the non-caldari ones having useless bonus'. Website Killboard
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.11.29 11:57:00 - [557] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Filan allow stealths to aquire a passive lock while cloaked, and then only have to decloak to fire and then let them recloak instantly. i mean an F117 is only risking high radar visibility when the bomb doors open. soon as the close poof its gone. sadly this idea would rock in fleet operations where cloak and dagger is part of the covert ops skill, but would end up as a Gank-o-matic in true gameplay. The stealth bomber concept is working fine as it is on SiSi atm. The only thing thats left is the imbalance between the different races' bombers, mainly the problem is the caldari one being more powerful than the others or better said the non-caldari ones having useless bonus'. I agree with Kunming.
alar1c	Posted - 2005.11.29 18:40:00 - [558] Firstly, I have not read all 19 or so pages of this thread! So if this has been covered, oh well. I wanted to hear an explanation as to why a bomber, doesn't use a covert op cloaking device?!? It's description says it's the "next generation in covert ops craft" That alone would make this a very dangerous weapon. A true stealth weapon. As it is now (and I've only just started playing with this) if you are waiting for a target, you can get a few shots off and warp away. But will be unable to return, at least not stealthaly. An enemy with a couple of fast ships(intercepter or even t1 frigs) could keep you from cloaking. And it would be (I believe) almost impossable to warp into an enemy(your not cloaked) and get into a good postion for an attack. If your changing things, give the stealth ships proper cloaking devices. My .02 isk on the subject. Al
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2005.11.30 03:14:00 - [559] I agree with Kunming and others - there seems to be no reason to fly a Purifier/Nemesis/Hound, other than the excuse of having their frigate skill at V already. The Manticore is simply the best, due to its extra launcher. So please do away with the useless turret bonus and replace it with something that will count towards burst damage. (DoT on a slow, vunrable frigate = meaningless.)
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.11.30 05:08:00 - [560] Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild So please do away with the useless turret bonus and replace it with something that will count towards burst damage. (DoT on a slow, vunrable frigate = meaningless.) Which is why I find the lack of speed disturbing on these boats.
Linia	Posted - 2005.11.30 23:59:00 - [561] Since my skills on SiSi isnt updated I cant check the new bombers, so tell me what they changed on the Nemesis please :)
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.12.01 00:26:00 - [562] Both the sensor recalibration delay and the cloaking delay have been removed. So stealth bombers can now lock a target immediately after decloaking, and they can also re-cloak without having to wait 30 seconds. If you're close enough to a target the decloak-lock-fire-cloak tactic now works nicely
Mr Monk	Posted - 2005.12.01 06:34:00 - [563] Interesting, ya the other ships having turret bonuses etc seems a bit useless, be nice to change that and the laucher slot numbers on all ships. Also - Does being targetted still prevent cloaking?
Kunming	Posted - 2005.12.01 12:36:00 - [564] Originally by: Mr Monk ... Also - Does being targetted still prevent cloaking? Yes, and the real defence against these are either fast locking ships or FoF missiles. If you attack lets say 2 ravens and they dont have FoFs in cargo, they will die. Remeber missiles uncloak u when they are within 2km of your cloaked ship. Website Killboard
Andrymeda	Posted - 2005.12.01 16:00:00 - [565] Originally by: CCP Hammer I don't know if it sounds better to say: We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay when decloaking in a stealth bomber next patch. Or We want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay from cloaking devices fitted to stealth bombers next patch. Or maybe even Next patch we want to remove the targetting timer delay and module activation delay..... Anyway, that's what we want to do. Does anyone have anything to add? Anyone see a glaring reason why we shouldn't? Anyone have any other little changes we might want to do to them that isn't going to require massive rebalancing or programming efforts? For their cost and the potential for them to be really cool ships they seem under-used. They came prenerfed since we didn't want them to be too ganktastic but after watching things for a while we think the timers can be removed. So, thoughts? / ? YES! Also, the grid needs some love. I think stealth bombers should match their descriptions. They are not feared as it is now. If they can target and fire a few cruise missiles at their targets and then cloak again, that would align with their descriptions. Even if an enemy has one targetted. They should be able to get away with hit and run, the price for this is that other than the cruise launcher, they can't expect to often destroy a target. While cloaked, they should be able to launch drones (thus targetting and attacking) as well a recall them. Think about it. Drones used in this manner will give away their position. Only an FOF missile could target the vicinity of the ship based on drone locations, especially if orbiting or otherwise rendevousing with the "mother" ship. Thus FOF missiles should be given splash damage. All this really does is add new tactics to the game. Stealth bombers don't have much armor or defenses other than the cloak, so if you can land a missile on one (or nearby), even if cloaked, they will take damage, even if from splash. Doubt a stealth bomber will have an armor rep fitted, so they will be forced to retreat. Also, non-targetting modules should be able to be activated, such as afterburners. The lone exception is remote modules used to assist a gang (if fitted with any - whether or not that is good tactics is up to the pilot). Also, if the bomber is targetted, it should be allowed to cloak, but the target lock remains for short while. How short could depend on long the ship takes to move at least 15km away from the last target lock location. The more it moves, the less damage it will take from opposing fire, except the splash damage from missiles remain the same. But the bottom line is that a stealth bomber should be allowed to cause some damage and get away with it. Like the description of the bomber hints at. Just some suggestions to chew on. Thanks for asking.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.12.01 20:25:00 - [566] @ Andrymeda; I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll ask you 2 questions: 1) Have u actually tried the stealth bombers with the new changes on SiSi? 2) Have u at least read the last 3 pages of this thread? SBs are fine as they are on SiSi atm, the only matter that needs attention is the balance issue between the different race's bombers. Website Killboard
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.12.05 04:20:00 - [567] Originally by: Kunming @ Andrymeda; I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll ask you 2 questions: 1) Have u actually tried the stealth bombers with the new changes on SiSi? 2) Have u at least read the last 3 pages of this thread? SBs are fine as they are on SiSi atm, the only matter that needs attention is the balance issue between the different race's bombers. yeh the imbalance is odd, i agree. if the hound had some more grid so could reasonably fit arties on it, it wouldn't be so bad - but it cant the others need something else too.
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.12.05 04:20:00 - [568] Originally by: Kunming @ Andrymeda; I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll ask you 2 questions: 1) Have u actually tried the stealth bombers with the new changes on SiSi? 2) Have u at least read the last 3 pages of this thread? SBs are fine as they are on SiSi atm, the only matter that needs attention is the balance issue between the different race's bombers. yeh the imbalance is odd, i agree. if the hound had some more grid so could reasonably fit arties on it, it wouldn't be so bad - but it cant the others need something else too.
Masu'di Es and Whizz	Posted - 2005.12.05 04:20:00 - [569] Originally by: Kunming @ Andrymeda; I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll ask you 2 questions: 1) Have u actually tried the stealth bombers with the new changes on SiSi? 2) Have u at least read the last 3 pages of this thread? SBs are fine as they are on SiSi atm, the only matter that needs attention is the balance issue between the different race's bombers. yeh the imbalance is odd, i agree. if the hound had some more grid so could reasonably fit arties on it, it wouldn't be so bad - but it cant the others need something else too.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.12.05 09:47:00 - [570] Originally by: Andrymeda I think stealth bombers should match their descriptions. They are not feared as it is now. They will be after the patch. Get on Sisi and try them out, you may be surprised. I took a hound into FFA last night and killed 6 ships in the space of 20 minutes, and I wasn't even really trying that hard. The new improved bombers are going to be a nasty weapon, especially when the high-damage and high-precision cruise missiles become available.
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.12.05 09:47:00 - [571] Originally by: Andrymeda I think stealth bombers should match their descriptions. They are not feared as it is now. They will be after the patch. Get on Sisi and try them out, you may be surprised. I took a hound into FFA last night and killed 6 ships in the space of 20 minutes, and I wasn't even really trying that hard. The new improved bombers are going to be a nasty weapon, especially when the high-damage and high-precision cruise missiles become available.
Bombcrater DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2005.12.05 09:47:00 - [572] Originally by: Andrymeda I think stealth bombers should match their descriptions. They are not feared as it is now. They will be after the patch. Get on Sisi and try them out, you may be surprised. I took a hound into FFA last night and killed 6 ships in the space of 20 minutes, and I wasn't even really trying that hard. The new improved bombers are going to be a nasty weapon, especially when the high-damage and high-precision cruise missiles become available. -------------------
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.12.05 10:32:00 - [573] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 05/12/2005 10:32:18 Originally by: Bombcrater Originally by: Andrymeda I think stealth bombers should match their descriptions. They are not feared as it is now. They will be after the patch. Get on Sisi and try them out, you may be surprised. I took a hound into FFA last night and killed 6 ships in the space of 20 minutes, and I wasn't even really trying that hard. The new improved bombers are going to be a nasty weapon, especially when the high-damage and high-precision cruise missiles become available. Sounds good. Could you give me a short summary of what has changed that moves bombers from "expensive paperweight" category to "nasty"? No locking delay anymore as far as I understand, but doesn't the increased ship hitpoint stuff still make then pretty weak (i.e. can't single-salvo kill ships, and low defenses)? What else, if anything, has improved? BTW, the new high-precision cruise missiles will require t2 launchers, and those will almost certainly require loads of grid -- with the already existing grid problems on the bombers, how are we supposed to fit the t2 cruise launchers? I'd love to actually use my Nemesis for something, right now it's sitting in the hangar gathering dust
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2005.12.05 10:32:00 - [574] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 05/12/2005 10:32:18 Originally by: Bombcrater Originally by: Andrymeda I think stealth bombers should match their descriptions. They are not feared as it is now. They will be after the patch. Get on Sisi and try them out, you may be surprised. I took a hound into FFA last night and killed 6 ships in the space of 20 minutes, and I wasn't even really trying that hard. The new improved bombers are going to be a nasty weapon, especially when the high-damage and high-precision cruise missiles become available. Sounds good. Could you give me a short summary of what has changed that moves bombers from "expensive paperweight" category to "nasty"? No locking delay anymore as far as I understand, but doesn't the increased ship hitpoint stuff still make then pretty weak (i.e. can't single-salvo kill ships, and low defenses)? What else, if anything, has improved? BTW, the new high-precision cruise missiles will require t2 launchers, and those will almost certainly require loads of grid -- with the already existing grid problems on the bombers, how are we supposed to fit the t2 cruise launchers? I'd love to actually use my Nemesis for something, right now it's sitting in the hangar gathering dust
Bombcrater	Posted - 2005.12.05 14:32:00 - [575] The fragility of the bombers doesn't really matter, IMHO, because the whole idea is never to get hit. That's where the removal of the delays, particularly the re-cloaking delay helps a lot. Before an on-the-ball interceptor pilot or a sniping cruiser could kill you before the 30-second delay expired, now you can just cloak instantly if things look too hot (using damps to break a cruiser's lock if necessary). Even in the middle of a hairy battle (like FFA) it's now possible for a bomber to decloak and slam a salvo into a nearby frigate, AF or inty before the target has worked out what the heck just happened. If conditions are favourable go for a second and third salvo, if not just cloak, move off, and wait for a better moment. T2 launchers will be a pain to fit, but bombers demand great fitting skills anway. It may mean sacrificing another low slot for a MAPC, but they'll go in.
Bombcrater DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2005.12.05 14:32:00 - [576] The fragility of the bombers doesn't really matter, IMHO, because the whole idea is never to get hit. That's where the removal of the delays, particularly the re-cloaking delay helps a lot. Before an on-the-ball interceptor pilot or a sniping cruiser could kill you before the 30-second delay expired, now you can just cloak instantly if things look too hot (using damps to break a cruiser's lock if necessary). Even in the middle of a hairy battle (like FFA) it's now possible for a bomber to decloak and slam a salvo into a nearby frigate, AF or inty before the target has worked out what the heck just happened. If conditions are favourable go for a second and third salvo, if not just cloak, move off, and wait for a better moment. T2 launchers will be a pain to fit, but bombers demand great fitting skills anway. It may mean sacrificing another low slot for a MAPC, but they'll go in. -------------------
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.12.05 18:50:00 - [577] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 05/12/2005 18:50:31 Originally by: Bombcrater Even in the middle of a hairy battle (like FFA) it's now possible for a bomber to decloak and slam a salvo into a nearby frigate, AF or inty before the target has worked out what the heck just happened. If conditions are favourable go for a second and third salvo, if not just cloak, move off, and wait for a better moment. This isn't 100% true and is why I believe you should be able to reload while cloaked. Currently with my Manticore, I load out missiles in the order: EM, Kin, Kin. If I find an Enyo or something, I won't be able to uncloak unless I want to get horribly ganked JUST because I can't switch the Kinetic for another damage type. AFs are tough nuts to *****, too, so allowing reload while cloaked won't over power the bombers (in fact it should make them perfect, especially if the other races finally get a 3rd missile slot). I'm not saying the racial damage bonus should be changed to all missiles - but I don't see any point in disallowing reloading while cloaked to adapt to the situation. Edit: That's not a swear word in there, that's just forum censorship being crap.
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2005.12.05 18:50:00 - [578] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 05/12/2005 18:50:31 Originally by: Bombcrater Even in the middle of a hairy battle (like FFA) it's now possible for a bomber to decloak and slam a salvo into a nearby frigate, AF or inty before the target has worked out what the heck just happened. If conditions are favourable go for a second and third salvo, if not just cloak, move off, and wait for a better moment. This isn't 100% true and is why I believe you should be able to reload while cloaked. Currently with my Manticore, I load out missiles in the order: EM, Kin, Kin. If I find an Enyo or something, I won't be able to uncloak unless I want to get horribly ganked JUST because I can't switch the Kinetic for another damage type. AFs are tough nuts to *****, too, so allowing reload while cloaked won't over power the bombers (in fact it should make them perfect, especially if the other races finally get a 3rd missile slot). I'm not saying the racial damage bonus should be changed to all missiles - but I don't see any point in disallowing reloading while cloaked to adapt to the situation. Edit: That's not a swear word in there, that's just forum censorship being crap. Learn what it means to be Caldari with Omerta Syndicate
Calderio	Posted - 2005.12.05 21:55:00 - [579] my skills arnt up to date onthe test server so i cant do any rmr testing with them, but i find that when i come up against a intercptor solo i cring, i can norminally get them down to half armor, using em kin kin, but even as i fire that first volley i cring knowing if i get tackled ill get pwned before the second volley leaves the tubes. one thing ive had to do on tq is that ive been forced to put a small cap battery on my manticore just to be able to warp around 60 au, ive stoped my weapons upgrades 5 to train warp drive op 5, ive heard that these ships had poor warping abilitys but this is pretty bad, out in 0.0 when ur trying to keep up with the fleet haveing to warp 2-3 times to get threw a system means ur 1-2 jumps behind the fleet. the current slow lock time is a pain but after patch camping gates with these stealth bombers and recon ships will be the win, i expect to be doing a lot of scouting and solo hunting in my stealth bomber after rmr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RIP Kevin Wessel, Age 20, Departed April 19 2005, Baghdad
Calderio Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2005.12.05 21:55:00 - [580] my skills arnt up to date onthe test server so i cant do any rmr testing with them, but i find that when i come up against a intercptor solo i cring, i can norminally get them down to half armor, using em kin kin, but even as i fire that first volley i cring knowing if i get tackled ill get pwned before the second volley leaves the tubes. one thing ive had to do on tq is that ive been forced to put a small cap battery on my manticore just to be able to warp around 60 au, ive stoped my weapons upgrades 5 to train warp drive op 5, ive heard that these ships had poor warping abilitys but this is pretty bad, out in 0.0 when ur trying to keep up with the fleet haveing to warp 2-3 times to get threw a system means ur 1-2 jumps behind the fleet. the current slow lock time is a pain but after patch camping gates with these stealth bombers and recon ships will be the win, i expect to be doing a lot of scouting and solo hunting in my stealth bomber after rmr listen to me on bob radio, heavy metal, random babbling, and live forum coverage.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:31:00 - [581] I still don't see anything to address the imbalance of the non-manticores. Any word on this from a dev, or any info from any testers? Or are the other 3 still useless ships?
Kaell Meynn Divergence	Posted - 2005.12.06 10:31:00 - [582] I still don't see anything to address the imbalance of the non-manticores. Any word on this from a dev, or any info from any testers? Or are the other 3 still useless ships?
Jon Hawkes	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:18:00 - [583] Originally by: Kaell Meynn I still don't see anything to address the imbalance of the non-manticores. Any word on this from a dev, or any info from any testers? Or are the other 3 still useless ships? Don't forget that even with Engineering 5, the Manticore has to fit at least one MAPC if it wants to carry 3 Cruise Launchers. As a result it is left with only one lowslot, and has nowhere near enough CPU to fit a BCU. The Manticore also suffers from a very poor capacitor to weight ration, meaning that it has difficulties in travelling over large hops. So while it has more firepower than the other bombers, it loses out on a number of other aspects. Free production, refining and POS resouces site
Jon Hawkes The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:18:00 - [584] Originally by: Kaell Meynn I still don't see anything to address the imbalance of the non-manticores. Any word on this from a dev, or any info from any testers? Or are the other 3 still useless ships? Don't forget that even with Engineering 5, the Manticore has to fit at least one MAPC if it wants to carry 3 Cruise Launchers. As a result it is left with only one lowslot, and has nowhere near enough CPU to fit a BCU. The Manticore also suffers from a very poor capacitor to weight ration, meaning that it has difficulties in travelling over large hops. So while it has more firepower than the other bombers, it loses out on a number of other aspects.
000Hunter000	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:47:00 - [585] Manti is caldari, so lets nerf it... yes that was sarcastic, but i think the caldari ships have been nerfed enough for a while now. hm, i think i'm going to enjoy flying around in my manti even more now
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2005.12.06 12:47:00 - [586] Manti is caldari, so lets nerf it... yes that was sarcastic, but i think the caldari ships have been nerfed enough for a while now. hm, i think i'm going to enjoy flying around in my manti even more now Resized tag... again... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp... again :p

TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:03:00 - [587] There will be no adjusting done to these ships for upcoming patch besides the removal of targeting delay after unclocking. But we will adress balance issues with these ships post RMR patch. .


TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:03:00 - [588] There will be no adjusting done to these ships for upcoming patch besides the removal of targeting delay after unclocking. But we will adress balance issues with these ships post RMR patch. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .


CCP TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:03:00 - [589] There will be no adjusting done to these ships for upcoming patch besides the removal of targeting delay after unclocking. But we will adress balance issues with these ships post RMR patch. TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .


TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:04:00 - [590] There will be no adjusting done to these ships for upcoming patch besides the removal of targeting delay after unclocking. But we will adress balance issues with these ships post RMR patch. .

Dahin	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:06:00 - [591] Haha! Care, to fix the submit method so it doesn't double-post now?
Dahin Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:06:00 - [592] Haha! Care, to fix the submit method so it doesn't double-post now?

TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:24:00 - [593] Originally by: Dahin Haha! Care, to fix the submit method so it doesn't double-post now? I got cheats .


TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:24:00 - [594] Originally by: Dahin Haha! Care, to fix the submit method so it doesn't double-post now? I got cheats TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .


CCP TomB	Posted - 2005.12.06 13:24:00 - [595] Originally by: Dahin Haha! Care, to fix the submit method so it doesn't double-post now? I got cheats TomB Lead Designer EVE Online .

Liet Traep	Posted - 2005.12.10 17:24:00 - [596] Originally by: Calderio my skills arnt up to date onthe test server so i cant do any rmr testing with them, but i find that when i come up against a intercptor solo i cring, i can norminally get them down to half armor, using em kin kin, but even as i fire that first volley i cring knowing if i get tackled ill get pwned before the second volley leaves the tubes. one thing ive had to do on tq is that ive been forced to put a small cap battery on my manticore just to be able to warp around 60 au, ive stoped my weapons upgrades 5 to train warp drive op 5, ive heard that these ships had poor warping abilitys but this is pretty bad, out in 0.0 when ur trying to keep up with the fleet haveing to warp 2-3 times to get threw a system means ur 1-2 jumps behind the fleet. the current slow lock time is a pain but after patch camping gates with these stealth bombers and recon ships will be the win, i expect to be doing a lot of scouting and solo hunting in my stealth bomber after rmr yeah the cap on it is REALLY bad. Even with a small cap battery 2 it takes me several jumps across a big system. The manticore is an awesome ship but it has issues.
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2005.12.10 17:24:00 - [597] Originally by: Calderio my skills arnt up to date onthe test server so i cant do any rmr testing with them, but i find that when i come up against a intercptor solo i cring, i can norminally get them down to half armor, using em kin kin, but even as i fire that first volley i cring knowing if i get tackled ill get pwned before the second volley leaves the tubes. one thing ive had to do on tq is that ive been forced to put a small cap battery on my manticore just to be able to warp around 60 au, ive stoped my weapons upgrades 5 to train warp drive op 5, ive heard that these ships had poor warping abilitys but this is pretty bad, out in 0.0 when ur trying to keep up with the fleet haveing to warp 2-3 times to get threw a system means ur 1-2 jumps behind the fleet. the current slow lock time is a pain but after patch camping gates with these stealth bombers and recon ships will be the win, i expect to be doing a lot of scouting and solo hunting in my stealth bomber after rmr yeah the cap on it is REALLY bad. Even with a small cap battery 2 it takes me several jumps across a big system. The manticore is an awesome ship but it has issues.
Vance Avalon	Posted - 2006.01.30 22:00:00 - [598] Edited by: Vance Avalon on 30/01/2006 22:00:30 Originally by: 000Hunter000 Manti is caldari, so lets nerf it... yes that was sarcastic, but i think the caldari ships have been nerfed enough for a while now. hm, i think i'm going to enjoy flying around in my manti even more now I will have to agree with you about the Manti not being nerfed. I fly a Nemesis and I know I have PG problems. Looking at the Manticore I see that it could be worse. At first glance, the Manticore seems superiour, and it is...to a degree. The PG costs for these ships are still enormous and I am still having problems fitting things without a MAPC. To operate a Manticore properly, one must train enormous skills to the max. So, leave the Manti as it is. If you think it is unfair...get ONE for yourself.
Jimbo1234	Posted - 2006.01.30 23:29:00 - [599] How about for the stealth bombers which have two launcher points and two turret points like the Nemesis. Remove one turret slot and give a range bonus for the one turret. Seems the maximun range now for a 150 mm railgun II with spike ammo is around 40-50km with high skills. Give a range bonus that reaches 100-120km with high skills. I believe this will balance with the uber manticore, yet still be different. I didn't read the whole thread yet, please forgive me if it was mentioned.
cav00	Posted - 2007.03.06 13:24:00 - [600] Originally by: M0535 Dunno if anyone has said this - as I'm too lazy to read the whole thread - but how about allowing the cov ops t2 cloak, so they can warp cloaked. you are lazy and ugly too
Pesadel0 Vagabundos THE H0RDE	Posted - 2007.03.06 13:48:00 - [601] necroed ;( I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Noxious89123 Gallente Sheik's Suicide Death Squad	Posted - 2007.03.06 17:09:00 - [602] Originally by: Merdekka Radaen As for the 2/3 launchers debate, that's a tricky subject. The Caldari are the missile race and should probably get a little something extra in that department, but there's a big gulf between having 2 and 3 launchers that makes the Manticore significantly more appealing. Also, just think what would happen if you went completely by the racial backgrounds. Amarr would have a stealth turret ship? Gallente would have a stealth drone ship? Caldari do get something other. The caldari pilot flying a stealth bomber is likely to have spec'd with loads of missle skills. Whereas most gallente pilots like myself will have most of their combat skills in hybrids and drones, so using missles is a PITA.
Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.06 17:38:00 - [603] Looking at the dates on this necroed thread makes me realize JUST HOW LING IVE BEEN PLAYING THIS GAME FOR................... sigh time to log in and switch skills ------- Is that a Templar? The Amarr fighter used by carriers?
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.03.06 18:34:00 - [604] On the road to Recons, Ive had to train covert ops, and I must say, I have no inclining to use em. The bombers just seem gimped. While the burst damage on a bomber is fun, it just cant do much without a couple of em. Plus, add that all someoen has to do is start to lock you and you cant cloak, and you got a problem. Wish these were more viable, esp. the non three-turret ships. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Esurnir Amarr Bears Inc FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.06 18:38:00 - [605] Die necro Die ! ---- Quote: Thou shall pew pew. Book of Revelation 12, 51
Dammar Amarr Ephorate	Posted - 2007.03.06 18:52:00 - [606] Rejoice all, for the bombers have been fixed! I hope the amarr fixes are not as half-assed as these.
Wintermoon Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.06 19:47:00 - [607] THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
Mataki Onimareu Gallente Life Extermination	Posted - 2007.04.18 07:53:00 - [608] I still don't see 3 or even 4 launcher hardpoints for all races, this would be welcomed. Or atleast some race specific bonus, the manticore can still pull kills better than the other 3 and thats the only SB's I've really ever seen. C'mon CCP, turrent hardpoints, why?
Dragy Caldari Soban Allied Rebellion DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2007.04.18 08:05:00 - [609] So still ... still there is nothing ! 2 years have passed ... i think that CCP should finally fix everything before implying something new to the game.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.04.18 11:26:00 - [610] Originally by: Wintermoon THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU! X 2 Because I said so...
TheShire Amarr F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.04.18 16:34:00 - [611] Originally by: sokken Edited by: sokken on 23/09/2005 18:16:30 i swear, the previous post wasnt there when i hit reply silly, now old, idea; It still cant warp while cloaked, but how about giving the stealthbomber the ability to cloak while in warp, so you can arrive unnoticed? i like that in warp cloak idea
Ten GuMarr Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2007.07.14 16:35:00 - [612] I have to agree with the Cloaked Warp for Stealth Bomber comment. It will be a while before I finish my training and fly my Purifier but I do wonder why they call them Stealth Bombers when you cannot arrive without being noticed and other covert craft can. warping in within full view and then vanishing is not stealthy and gives the enemy chance to warp away. Then again what do I know, cant even fly one for a long while yet. Aiming for Mining Barge V for Money. Stealth Bomber for Fun. Covetor and Purifier already in the garage ready when I am (which wont be for a while).
Torquemanda Corteaz Gallente Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.14 16:42:00 - [613] we need to start putting old threads in concrete coffins, people keep bringing them back from the dead
Ten GuMarr Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2007.07.14 16:47:00 - [614] Is that a problem? Surely its OK as long as the recent posts are relevant to the current situation. I am sure CCP could alter the search facility so that it does not pick up threads that have been dormant for more than 6 months But sort out the stealth bomber warp thing first ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ -[sig]- ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Aiming for Mining Barge V for Money. Stealth Bomber for Fun. Covetor and Purifier already in the garage ready when I am (which wont be for a while).
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.14 19:13:00 - [615] while it'd be nice the give bombers the ability to cloak while in warp, and to arrive unseen, necroing a 2 year old thread is a bad idea for a variety of reasons... 1: there's a lot of stupid people on these forums that will reply to posts that are no longer relevant (ex: OMG ALL SBs HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS NOW NOOB!) 2: I hate to reply to a thread without reading all previous posts, but there's no ***** WAY I'm gonna go back and read 20 pages of irrelevant discussion 3: seeing a thread about stealth bombers started by a dev team member makes people get happy in the pants... then we open the thread and it's ancient, from back when the devs took input through the forums rather than over IM... don't toy with my emotions Originally by:** Benn Helmsman And btw: Could a mod give this guy a snip for constant insulting without giving any point to the topic?
Ten GuMarr Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2007.07.15 00:06:00 - [616] Edited by: Ten GuMarr on 15/07/2007 00:07:38 So perhaps it would be prudent to suggest to the mods that any thread which has not had a post for 300 days (6 months give or take a few days) autolocks. Perhaps someone should start a thread about it . . . assuming one was not started years ago As with most users, I cant be arsed to look. BTW - You Avatar looks just like a bloke I used to work with. Its uncanny. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ -[sig]- ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Aiming for Mining Barge V for Money. Stealth Bomber for Fun. Covetor and Purifier already in the garage ready when I am (which wont be for a while).

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