You actually think the HM nerf was good and not excessive?

Funny you say that but even people who complained about them being over powered say they are horrible now...

So i would like to know, will there actually be any further discussions or modifications to these proposed changes or are they set in stone? It seems from reading through this entire thread that most people are overall NOT happy with this proposal.

Why shouldnt you be able to use your short range ammo at point blank on a target that your ship was built to shoot? surely that must make sense to you, and if doesnt, then you should rethink the your idea on the purpose of a dread.

So i would like to know, will there actually be any further discussions or modifications to these proposed changes or are they set in stone? It seems from reading through this entire thread that most people are overall NOT happy with this proposal.

CCP's issue with the moros was not a damage one, they are happy with the dps of the ship. Their issue was the range it can use antimatter. They didnt want it to have the longer range it did past a certain point.

http://i.imgur.com/BtRcwjx.png

Again ...where is the range nerf?? Moros is shooting much further with Antimatter now. It still outperforms all other dreads. So you are getting a %3 reduction to dps while 30k pos shooting for an increase in damage projection. You should be saying HELL YES.

Why shouldnt you be able to use your short range ammo at point blank on a target that your ship was built to shoot? surely that must make sense to you, and if doesnt, then you should rethink the your idea on the purpose of a dread.

Do you mean to say that the dread is only designed to shoot POS?
Alright, lets reduce the tracking -90%, didnt need it anyway.

They're better than medium beams and medium rails.
So that leaves them on par with or slightly worse than medium artillery.
People only think HMs are terrible because they were accustomed to using them like high DPS weapons without the disadvantage of short range. The nerf (and the buff to other missiles) made HAMs much more viable, to start with.

Why shouldnt you be able to use your short range ammo at point blank on a target that your ship was built to shoot? surely that must make sense to you, and if doesnt, then you should rethink the your idea on the purpose of a dread.

CCP's issue with the moros was not a damage one, they are happy with the dps of the ship. Their issue was the range it can use antimatter. They didnt want it to have the longer range it did past a certain point.

So they took the lazy route of nerfing the range and in turn didnt take into the account of how it would affect pos shooting, so when they were told that it would be an issue for using antimatter on a pos on top of the TE nerf, they just said who cares, its only a 3% dps nerf and were to lazy to adjust it.

If you look at many of the changes with the upcoming xpac, you will see a ton of lazy or half thought out changes. Battleship threads for example. Many of the changes were just dumb, yet they asked for feedback but then dont post again and just go with their idea regardless of how people proved it was a bad idea. Once again, lazy..

A nerf to one is a buff to the rest.. Umm no... Thats just more lazy man thinking. The Nag was crap, and it required a complete weapon system change to put it on par with the moros and with selectable damage it will actually be better in some ways.

.....

Back again to the whole nerf to one is a buff to others, all it did was put them slightly closer in terms of dps, that does not fix any of the other ships issues.

The length of this thread proves that OP changes are long overdue.

Shouldn't boost moros that much in the first place.

Personally do approve careful small changes like this one.

I love when people plug ships into EFT and suddenly become an expert on a ship's effectiveness.

It's just a lazy way to argue something.

EFT says this...
EFT says that...
My EFT fitting is this...

You can't read a balance thread these days without EFT being mentioned.

I love when people plug ships into EFT and suddenly become an expert on a ship's effectiveness.

Good, at least then we get reliable numbers. We still have to interpret them correctly - after all, failure to understand what the numbers mean can lead to silly claims, such as citadel torps not doing full damage to a 60 m/s Aeon - but that's a separate issue. Now we have the numbers we can see that, if anything, this is a Moros range boost.

Im sorry I fail to see where I said dreads were only built to shoot pos's....
Oh wait, i didnt.

Considering tha after hitting siege you do not touch much buttons or click in a dread, ... if there are ships were you can get a reasonable Idea of their performance in EFT .. those are the dreads :)

Getting Dreads (and titans for that matter) back into their intended role of going after other capitals is a good direction. Leaving the option for "lol fits to fight a specific target" should still be viable, even at capital ship levels, but there should be some form of penalty in doing so which CCP is implementing. +1 CCP

As a cautionary statement, CCP has more or less done a good job in rebalancing subcaps but there has been a feeling of too much homogenizaton with every ship having the same number of slots, ehp, and utility. As others have mentioned, it sometimes feels like I pick a ship based on looks because they're all the same. I do hope that CCP makes the right changes to balance Dreads and all capitals so that they are useful against each other but still maintain their racial flavors and strengths/weaknesses.

At the moment dreadnoughts are great ships, worth their price and skills required. Maybe apart from phoenix which is pretty bad against anything that moves.
All people crying about dreadnoughts killing subcapitals are just pathetic. Solo moros will not kill anything small, despite tracking everyone whining about. Dreadnoughts to kill subcapitals need support fleet and proper fit - which is absolutely fair and fun.
All people who cannot afford them or fly them or just simply don't use them in right way - should keep quiet and learn to use potential of dreadnoughts instead of crying "oh, these dreads are so strong, CCP please do something"
I said on couple threads already - expensive/high skill ships should be efficient and fun to use.
I already see 100mil sp pilots flying in damn cruisers.

CCP I beg for the love of god, stop nerfing big ships and boosting trash cruisers and frigates.

Ok folks, I'm waiting for an ocean of cruiser sized tears.

I could be pursuaded to like this nerf.

It would take giving back to the Moros a 1k drone bay, with ability to control 20 drones and bandwidth to allow this to be 20 light drones only (or 10 meds or 4 heavies obviously) with a dmg bonus applying only in seige.

Get on it CCP dude

I know reality has no place here in Eve, but come on... 20 m/s explosion velocity on the biggest missiles you can fire?

That's 45 mph.

A greyhound bus could speed tank that.

[

I could buy you, your dreadnaught, and your entire miserable corporation a dozen times over (and that's being entirely too generous about the value of you or your corp, I'm sure) and you're wrong, and not only are you wrong but you're wrong an impressive number of times for such a short post. Sorry. Well, no, not really sorry.

So if Dreads aren't supposed to take subcap fleets alone (i.e the blap Moros's that have been around), then why did all of these dread pilots become so elitist and think they should be able to 1 shot battleships?

-There was a broken mechanic along the lines of too high base tracking on XL guns which CCP is now reducing slightly.

This thread strikes me as a solution to dreads shooting sub caps but criteria are needed to shoot them with siege dreads:

1: The target has multiple target painters on it
2: The target is webed by multiple webs

Add into that people just love MWD's and you have a really nice situation of dread kills subs.


Solution:

Add the E-war penalties that the triage module gets to the siege module (E-war capacitor need bonus = 9,999,900% ) this prevents the dread doing one of or both the afore mentioned points farming them out to a supporting fleet.

Adjust siege module stats ( E.g. tracking speed bonus -15% scan resolution bonus - 80% / T2 siege tracking speed bonus -10% scan resolution bonus - 75% Damage multiplier bonus 800% ).

Increase the stacking penalties of damage and tracking modules.

Leave the X-L guns alone

Pure arrogance, no value. I couldn't expect any more.

Says the guy who doesn't see the value in buffing ships on the low end of things and thinks that because he flies ~such an expensive ship~ that he's entitled to overpowered performance . That bit was the wrongest part of your post, you know. But, the rest of it was pretty wrong too.

Considering tha after hitting siege you do not touch much buttons or click in a dread, ... if there are ships were you can get a reasonable Idea of their performance in EFT .. those are the dreads :)

The sig radius of a greyhound bus - around 13m at the most - would have more to do with said bus' ability to tank citadel torpedo fire than its speed.

You can see this for yourself if you plug the assumed stats (30m/s torp, 26.8m/s velocity of bus, 13m sig) into the missile damage formula and separate out each of the terms in the equation. The sig term (S/E) returns .008666... whereas the velocity term (that messier one with the logarithm) returns .00964. Note that this holds true even if the bus is standing still, which is how we can conclude that the sig radius is the dominating factor.

What skills of yours are in effect? Are you moving? Are they moving? What's your range? What's your transversal? What's your radial velocity? What boosters are in place? What webs are on the target? What's the resistances of the target? What's their logistical situation like? How varied is their tank? Do they have a resistance hole? If so, what is it? What's your cap like? Do you need to refit? What do you have on hand? Can you hold with DPS mods in the lows or should you switch out? How much can you switch out to hold that tank compared to other dreads?

You're right, flying a dread is just hitting siege and pressing F1. Then again, in w-space we use dreads for more than just shooting towers.