| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 28 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:06:00 -
[361] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Let me clarify it for you that you can't wezel word your way out of it...
15 Catas with T2 blasters have about 0% risk of not blowing up a Mack.
You heard it here first folks! It's risk-free to rat in an officer fit carrier, because you have a 100% chance to kill the rats.
Malcanis wrote: What should should "15 Catas with T2 blasters" not have about a 0% risk of not blowing up. I can't think of many subcaps here.
[Ibis, Welp] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
'Cetus' ECM Shockwave I [empty med slot]
[empty high slot] [empty high slot]
If 4 gankers can bring an extra 11(!) pilots and 150 million isk of hardware where 8 mil would do the job, I don't see why a 30+ man mining operation can't spend 450 thousand isk to put three alts in these. I'm sure at least a few of them have pew pew accounts with market/cyno/hauler alts to fit the bill. At the immense extra cost of 1 mil each, they can even fit a cloak and prop mod.
Murk Paradox wrote: It is a constant. No variable, no "other". It's an absolute. It's either, to use your terms, a 0 or a 1.
0=false. 1=true. When you shoot someone, Concord will blow you up. 0 or 1?
/facedesk
No. Concord will not blow you up resulting in a 1 or a 0.
Concord will turn your Catalyst into a Catalyst wreck containing anywhere from nothing, to half the value of a meta cat, up to 90% of a t2 cat if everything drops. You RISK the whole ship, but you will only LOSE ~75% of it if meta and ~55% if T2 fit on average. If the gank is executed properly, the loot fairy doesn't give you the middle finger, looter gets it all, gets out, and you get your pod out.
A 70 mil SP pilot is not risking a 2 mil meta cat in a gank. He's risking the ~500k expected loot drop from his own wreck and the 9 mil ISK it will cost him to upgrade the clone should he get podded.
Furthermore, you risk that should the 9 mil in mods actually drop from the cat it might be looted by the victim's friends. The T2 cat might drop better loot than the barge itself.
Even if you're a social reject with no alt account you can go to a quiet system. Bring the gank character in, log off. Bring the scanner, find a lone target in a belt, log off. Gank it, initiate pod warp to safe, close client, log scanner in, loot. You should be done and out before he can dock and reship to loot himself. Your pod may or may not get probed out and popped before you get it to safety. But the chance of you losing everything on your gank ship when you F1 is far from 100%.
P never really equals 1. It probably drifts around the 0.75 mark. With some hilarious welps that can turn an expected 5-6mil T2 cat loss into a couple guys needing to update clones and the "victim" coming out 20+ mil ahead in bonus loot. Bonus points if they had 5% small hybrid implants.
Every time you undock, you consent to people violencing your boat. This applies to the gankers every bit as much as it does to the miners. I've seen people sit on gate/station/probed safe in an interceptor with multiple points, catching outlaw cats before they even get so far as the warp-to-miner part. Faction police do the rest. Bonus tears if the rest of the cats still engage and welp on a barge with insufficient dps. |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38398
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:08:00 -
[362] - Quote
You guys who think ganking high sec miners is risk free are just not thinking. At all.
Once they explode your ersatz ice cream truck, they have opened themselves up to a MONTH of possible ganking free and clear in High Sec by your little self.
That sounds pretty risky to me.
They run the risk of instant asplossion anytime they jump into high sec. Especially in returning to the area where the deed happened. |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38398
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:10:00 -
[363] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:
It is carebear pvp. PVP being it involves another player. Not that they can actually attack back.
You are just dead wrong there. See above. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7618
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:11:00 -
[364] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:
It's in comment to baltec's statement "These are all risks currently faced by suicide gankers in high sec."
Fact is there are no "risks", it is calculated loses. There is no skill, it is all procedure.
It is carebear pvp. PVP being it involves another player. Not that they can actually attack back.
How exactly is a 50% drop chance, the chance of the target having better than expected defences, the target getting unexpected help and going suspect while looting the wreck (and thus, open to attack from everyone) not classed as risks? |

Rekon X
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:21:00 -
[365] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:You guys who think ganking high sec miners is risk free are just not thinking. At all.
Once they explode your ersatz ice cream truck, they have opened themselves up to a MONTH of possible ganking free and clear in High Sec by your little self.
That sounds pretty risky to me.
It is your choice to do the ganking. That does not make it a risk. It is a result.
Sorry, fail again.
|

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:23:00 -
[366] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:It is carebear pvp. PVP being it involves another player. Well duh. They're shooting carebears so it's carebear PvP. Doesn't get more carebear than willingly getting into an untanked, unarmed ship and heading out into the void of space to collect rocks.
Rekon X wrote:Not that they can actually attack back. Last I checked an exhumer can field 5 hammerheads for 130 dps with decent skills and the sig res to lock a destroyer in under 2 seconds. 10 such barges focusing drones (herp derp assign to the one guy not afk) will alpha a catalyst every 4 seconds. |

Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12217
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:24:00 -
[367] - Quote
Rekon X wrote: It's in comment to baltec's statement "These are all risks currently faced by suicide gankers in high sec."
Fact is there are no "risks", it is calculated loses. There is no skill, it is all procedure.
It is carebear pvp. PVP being it involves another player. Not that they can actually attack back.
Why can't they attack back? Most mining vessels are equipped with a drone bay, which is not restricted to mining drones. A flight of combat drones will aggress suicide gankers as soon as they open fire, you'll still die, but you get to shoot at them.
There's also the fact that most suicide gankers are shoot on sight due to their sec status, if you get a suicide ganker that has a low enough sec status, you can shoot at them first, without Concord instagibbing you.
What you actually meant was that most miners choose not to attack suicide gankers, even though they can.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |

Rekon X
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:28:00 -
[368] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:I heard there are freighters dying in the ice belts and the carnage is ramping up
System? |

baltec1
Bat Country
7618
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:33:00 -
[369] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:Leigh Akiga wrote:I heard there are freighters dying in the ice belts and the carnage is ramping up System?
Wuos, The Forge.
We have also taken out several bonus Tengu and many Orca.
|

Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12217
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:35:00 -
[370] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rekon X wrote:Leigh Akiga wrote:I heard there are freighters dying in the ice belts and the carnage is ramping up System? Wuos, The Forge. We have also taken out several bonus Tengu and many Orca. Kamio and Osmon to name a couple more
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38400
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:37:00 -
[371] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:You guys who think ganking high sec miners is risk free are just not thinking. At all.
Once they explode your ersatz ice cream truck, they have opened themselves up to a MONTH of possible ganking free and clear in High Sec by your little self.
That sounds pretty risky to me.
It is your choice to do the ganking. That does not make it a risk. It is a result. Sorry, fail again.
So, being criminally flagged in High Sec for 30 days by multiple entities is not risky.
Got it.
Maybe you need War Dec to understand how risky that proposition indeed is.
Or maybe hire some Mercs so you can experience 'risk free' High Sec mining for a week. |

Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12218
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:39:00 -
[372] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: So, being criminally flagged in High Sec for 30 days by multiple entities is not risky.
Got it.
Maybe you need War Dec to understand how risky that proposition indeed is.
Wouldn't affect him, he's too busy hiding behind an NPC corps skirts.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38400
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:41:00 -
[373] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: So, being criminally flagged in High Sec for 30 days by multiple entities is not risky.
Got it.
Maybe you need War Dec to understand how risky that proposition indeed is.
Wouldn't affect him, he's too busy hiding behind an NPC corps skirts.
Thus my merc statement, most indeed.
ed: he must think some of us don't have billions to carry on with it for 'quite a while' actually. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7618
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:44:00 -
[374] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rekon X wrote:Leigh Akiga wrote:I heard there are freighters dying in the ice belts and the carnage is ramping up System? Wuos, The Forge. We have also taken out several bonus Tengu and many Orca. Kamio and Osmon to name a couple more. *wonders how many of the orca gank ships were named Pequod, Ishmael and Ahab Not nearly enough.
Last count for ice freighters was six dead in 72 hours. |

Rekon X
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:49:00 -
[375] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Rekon X wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:You guys who think ganking high sec miners is risk free are just not thinking. At all.
Once they explode your ersatz ice cream truck, they have opened themselves up to a MONTH of possible ganking free and clear in High Sec by your little self.
That sounds pretty risky to me.
It is your choice to do the ganking. That does not make it a risk. It is a result. Sorry, fail again. So, being criminally flagged in High Sec for 30 days by multiple entities is not risky. Got it. Maybe you need War Dec to understand how risky that proposition indeed is. Or maybe hire some Mercs so you can experience 'risk free' High Sec mining for a week.
It is not a risk. It is a result of your actions. You don't want the flag, don't do the ganking. It is your decision.
Yea, go wardec some more noobs, miners.
You are the carebears that scan down targets with alts, calculate their defenses, and then attack, but only if no one else is around that can attack back. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7618
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:53:00 -
[376] - Quote
Rekon X wrote: but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
Yea about that.
|

Jonah Gravenstein
Sweet Sensations Radical Industries
12220
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 23:58:00 -
[377] - Quote
Rekon X wrote: It is not a risk. It is a result of your actions. You don't want the flag, don't do the ganking. It is your decision.
The result of a gankers actions and choices increases their risk of explosion at anothers hands, so there is a risk involved. Being an easy target is the result of a miners choices, and the risk of getting ganked while mining can be mitigated by changing those choices.
Quote:Yea, go wardec some more noobs, miners
You are the carebears that scan down targets with alts, calculate their defenses, and then attack, but only if no one else is around that can attack back. Did you somehow miss the part where Krixtal states that he is in fact a miner?
Miners can fight back, and do so successfully.
Bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are ~ Harry G. Frankfurt |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2572
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 00:18:00 -
[378] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:P(B|A) is not dependent on P(A) because it assumes that A happened. GǪso much like it being stolen (or not), assuming that it has dropped, you mean? Yes? P(B|A) is literally said, "The probability of B given A"
But.... P ( B | A ) = P ( A and B ) / P (A)
The only time P(B|A) is not dependent on P(A) is if A and B are independent of each other. Because then P (A and B ) = P (A) * P (B), so P(B|A) = P (B), and it doesn't matter if A happens or not.
|

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38404
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 00:18:00 -
[379] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:
It is not a risk. It is a result of your actions. You don't want the flag, don't do the ganking. It is your decision.
Yea, go wardec some more noobs, miners.
You are the carebears that scan down targets with alts, calculate their defenses, and then attack, but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
If you don't want the risk of being asploded in a belt, then don't mine.
Personally, I'd quit the game as then mining would indeed be most boring. Intolerable in fact.
I've only really had reason to gank AFK botting miners twice. I got tired of the 23 hours a day non-stop warping back and forth making my overview jump like mad. It's irritating.
I calculated nothing and scanned down nothing.
I just hopped in a Naga and went to work.
They are wonderful ships.
Also, it matters not that nobody is around after the gank to 'fight back'. There is nothing left by CONCORD but a pod........and they will definitely be CONCORDed themselves if they fire upon it. It's a bit hard to do. |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38404
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 00:19:00 -
[380] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rekon X wrote: but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
Yea about that.
   |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
38416
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 00:24:00 -
[381] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Rekon X wrote: It is not a risk. It is a result of your actions. You don't want the flag, don't do the ganking. It is your decision.
The result of a gankers actions and choices increases their risk of explosion at anothers hands, so there is a risk involved. Being an easy target is the result of a miners choices, and the risk of getting ganked while mining can be mitigated by changing those choices. Quote:Yea, go wardec some more noobs, miners
You are the carebears that scan down targets with alts, calculate their defenses, and then attack, but only if no one else is around that can attack back. Did you somehow miss the part where Krixtal states that he is in fact a miner?
My rather thin kill ratio after 3 1/2 years does indeed prove that.
But then in 2 1/2 years I've only lost one ship, a Deep Space Transport and that wasn't even mining.
I must be doing something right.
Maybe it's never being AFK. |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
637
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 01:42:00 -
[382] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:
It is not a risk. It is a result of your actions. You don't want the flag, don't do the ganking. It is your decision.
Yea, go wardec some more noobs, miners.
You are the carebears that scan down targets with alts, calculate their defenses, and then attack, but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
The shiploss is not the risk in itself. The risk is that you can potentially waste assets (the ship) for nothing.
Here are the reason why you might gank someone else and then I will list risk associated with trying that gank.
A : For profit
The risk involved in this gase is mostly related to the infamous loot fairy. If she says no, all you did was for nothing. You risked your assets/time by investing them into a gank trial and you were denied the prize. So sad, too bad, bye bye.
B: For tears
The risk here is ganking a really level headed player. No matter how many time you gank him, you never get what you wanted. You took the risk of investing a gank ship/fleet intop this gank for nothing. It was all lost because all you got out of the guy is silence of "o7 mate".
C: Just for the kill
The risk here actually apply to every other single gank but the previous risk obviously don't apply to this because getting no tears or loot does not matter if you are not looking for it. The risk in this case is anything surprising you while you gank. Oops, the guy had some ganklink on him giving him more tank. Oops, the guy had implants giving him again more tanks. The guy had a cloaked falcon alt on grid and denied the gank with ECM. You again didn't get anything out of your investement. EVE is like that, sometime, what you put on the line goes away and you are left without anything. You took a chance at it after calculating your risk (hopefully you did) and tried it anyway. Sometime it goes your way, sometime the risk bite you. Statistically, you will lose some and win some.
Again, the ship loss is not the risk in itself. The risk is to lose the ship in vain. Your gank is done for a reason. There is always a risk you will not get what you were looking for in a gank.
The only form of "ganking" that would be riskless is if you ganked purely to lose your own ship. At that point, nothing can deny you that I guess. Unless CCP remap/crash the node... |

Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3480
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 04:56:00 -
[383] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Dictionary.com defines risk as "exposure to the chance of injury or loss; a hazard or dangerous chance"
I bolded the word "chance" so you know that risk requires a chance which assumes possible survivability. When death or destructionis 100% guaranteed, then there is no risk, because it is outcome that has no chance of survivability. As has been explained, ship loss isn't the only factor that we have to take in to account for suicide ganking. There are plenty of things left to chance. You're trying to pidgeon-hole the definition of risk in to 'ship loss only'. Let's break it down. When you fire your gun, you don't risk losing a bullet. You know it's going to fire, you know it's going to leave, you know you're going to lose it. Not really much pidgeon holing there. No need to over complicate things. You take a ship out with full intention of not coming back in it. Now, you DO risk coming back poorer, because you might not make a profit. But that doesn't equate to the act of suicide ganking and that would be pidgeon holing the situation. So yea, let's not pidgeon hole the fact you know it's going to be loss, not risk.
So you are saying that everytime I suicide gank someone I know for a fact that I will not profit from it? Think about what you're saying there.
The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16188
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 05:23:00 -
[384] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Cost is not a risk. It is a cost. GǪand all costs are risks. If those costs are certain, the risk is very high, but it is a risk none the less.
Quote:Only in the written word, not in application. In application, nothing ever has probability of 1 (or 0), not even ship losses from ganking (on either side). So not only is it the case that having a 100% probability of losing your ship still means that it's a risk, but it is also the case that you don't have a 100% probability of losing your ship, so it's a risk anyway. No matter how you count, it's a risk.
Quote:It doesn't cost you anything if you don't die. GǪand the whole point of talking about risks is because we have that GǣifGǥ in the sentence. Risks are costs, and costs are risks. What the projected outcome does is take into account both the possibility that you die and the possibility that you don't.
Quote:The difference, is outcome based on intent. Intent only determines the sign on your outcome: if the outcome is aligned with your intent, you generally put a plus sign in front of it; if the outcome is counter to your intent, you put a minus sign in front of it. If your intent is to calculate projected losses, then costs are positive and gains are negative.
Quote:To prove a constant. It isn't a risk if you do not consider it anything more than a cost. It doesn't matter if it's a constant. A risk is a risk is a risk, and costs with p=1 are also risks because they are still a cost-probability duplet. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16188
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 05:23:00 -
[385] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:I will however, take the time to applaud all the people who rise to the defense of people, even in fact of them being wrong and trying to circumvent simple fact into fantasy to pretend something is something different than it is. Well, if they just accepted the reality of what risks are (i.e. cost +ù probablity, where c can be both positive and negative and p can be anything from 0 to 1), they wouldn't have to be wrong so much in spite of having this simple fact explained to them over and over again.
Quote:Now, get the hell over the fact that suicide ganking is in fact riskless pvp since you aren't putting anything on the line and just gank a ship and be done with it. Why should they get over that fantasy, when it has no connection to reality? After all, there are plenty of risks involved: the loss of the ship(s) being one; the destruction of the target being another; and getting the loot being a third. If you really want to go with the argument that they're just costs, then guess what? There is no risk for the gank victim either, because his loss is also just a cost. That leads us nowhere. Accepting the simple fact that ganks are risky means we can actually start to legitimately debate whether that risk is where it should be or not GÇö denying it only leaves you at an impasse with no proof for your case and no argument to change anything.
Quote:I have yet to ever hear anyone ever think they could suicide gank and not get blown up by Concord. That's because you're not paying attention. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16188
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 05:23:00 -
[386] - Quote
Rekon X wrote:It is your choice to do the ganking. That does not make it a risk. It is a result. By that logic, there are no risks anywhere, ever. You don't risk getting blown up in a gank because blowing up is a result, not a risk. See how that works?
Quote:It is not a risk. It is a result of your actions. GǪand the risk involved in doing that action is still a risk. You're confusing the projected and the actual outcome.
S Byerley wrote:Yes? P(B|A) is literally said, "The probability of B given A" So when you said that they were dependent, you meantGǪ what, exactly?
Quote:You seem really defensive about having ****** up highschool level statistics; don't worry about it, most people do. You're confusing me with you, which is why I would like you to answer the question and show that you actually have any idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry if you can't just google a page where the answer is given to you, but that's kind of the point of the exercise.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Spectatoress
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 06:05:00 -
[387] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Rekon X wrote: but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
Yea about that.
Almost funny to cite a kill where more than half of the squad are braindead multiboxed zombies controlled by the "crybearer", sorry, your "Architect" Warr Akini ..... what was it again about "skill needed"? The tornado wasnt a severe threat after all it seems.  |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
119
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 07:17:00 -
[388] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So when you said that they were dependent, you meantGǪ what, exactly?
When I said they were dependent I meant they were dependent, oddly enough. P(B|A) isn't the same as P(B), unless A and B are independent. Is the notation confusing you?
Tippia wrote:Quote:You seem really defensive about having ****** up highschool level statistics; don't worry about it, most people do. You're confusing me with you
Are you trying to argue now that your original equation was correct? Honestly, it's not that big of a deal - common pitfall.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
7621
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 07:27:00 -
[389] - Quote
Spectatoress wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rekon X wrote: but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
Yea about that. Almost funny to cite a kill where at least more than half of the squad are braindead multiboxed zombies controlled by the crybearer ..., sorry, your "Architect" Warr Akini ..... what was it again about "skill needed"? The tornado was a very severe threat after all it seems.  More tears or hints about afk-multiboxed-miners or afk-flying freighter please while afking multiboxed in a safe station, waiting for the ping or > 15 minutes gone by to launch and attack .... hypocrisy anyone? 
Please tell me how you gank people while you are away from the keyboard. |

Spectatoress
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 09:11:00 -
[390] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Spectatoress wrote:baltec1 wrote:Rekon X wrote: but only if no one else is around that can attack back.
Yea about that. Almost funny to cite a kill where at least more than half of the squad are braindead multiboxed zombies controlled by the crybearer ..., sorry, your "Architect" Warr Akini ..... what was it again about "skill needed"? The tornado was a very severe threat after all it seems.  More tears or hints about afk-multiboxed-miners or afk-flying freighter please while afking multiboxed in a safe station, waiting for the ping or > 15 minutes gone by to launch and attack .... hypocrisy anyone?  Please tell me how you gank people while you are away from the keyboard.
i enjoy you trying to be witty stating questions that i already have answered. please continue little zerg goonie.  |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 28 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |