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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
I have to agree with the people above and say that have naga do a single thing well rather than two subpar. It hardly seems fair that it has only a single applicable bonus at a time when it's even not a damage one, which the others get. Yes, it has versatility, but what's the point of that when there's better ships for the job either way? The talon is more effective with hybrids and while not directly comparable, you could get two stealth bombers for the price of a naga. |
Scottishprog
Templar Battalion
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
I am sorta ambivalent on the split weapons bonuses on the Naga.... for the main reason that you are not forced to use two different weapons systems... you can use one or the other for all 8 high slots, and thus only one set of damage mods, unlike say, the typhoon.
Now, I can see why they would not want to bonus torps any more then they already are.... make the ship too capable of hitting smaller ships....
Rails on the other hand, might used a damage, or more likely a tracking boost in addition to the range boost?
Or are we gonna have to be content with the "damage boost" of being able to use higher damage ammo to farther ranges?
On a separate note, I think the EHP is a bit low, I was only able to get it up to 17K or so with a reasonable tank. (EM resist rig, two extender rigs, all T1, and two invluns) Time will tell it that is too prone to being instapopped...
This ship will never be the jack of all trades in PvP, it's DAMAGE all the way baby! (leave the tackling to someone else; takes too much out of the shield.... |
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
I think the Naga should get a rof bonus to hybrids and torps, to complement the current bonuses. |
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
14
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Once again, Minmater wins. Oracle not bad. The others... meh. Talos seems terrible. Need to see if I can fit this better. |
Death Toll007
Fleet of Doom Ushra'Khan
1
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
Players of EVE....
BECAUSE OF FALCON!!!
The Caldari will never have another ship to fit their fiction role.
BECAUSE OF FALCON!!!
The Caldari will never have a ship designed into a specialist role.
BECAUSE OF FALCON WHINERS!!!
I gave up training Caldari and switched to minmatar, and have loved it.
Lesson here...
CALDARI IS USELESS... BECAUSE OF FALCON!!!
Accept it, CCP will not listen to any discussion making a useful Caldari ship again.
-DT |
Xen0nn
PassThrough
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kalot Sakaar wrote:Once again, Minmater wins. Oracle not bad. The others... meh. Talos seems terrible. Need to see if I can fit this better.
I'd actually say that the Oracle is on par with the Tornado, close battle Tornado wins ranged the Oracle wins. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
4
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Plz make sure to give the Naga bonus for hybrids only. The Typhoon, Moa and Ferox was changed for a reason not that long ago... Giving the Naga the option to fit launchers will be nice for an alternative giving variety and a few advantages in return for less dps (just like the Rokh), however forcing split weapons just doesn't work. |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
2
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
I forgot if i asked already, but did you notice that modules on these new ships overheat very slow? I could overheat 8 guns for quite longer time than on lets say machariel or maelstrom. |
PinkKnife
Garden Of The Gods
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
I think the main issue is that both the Oracle and Naga essentially only get one bonus. The Tornado gets falloff and rate of fire. The Talos gets tracking and damage. The Oracle gets damage and cap use? The Cap use issue is a bit of a cop out since you need that to simply fire the larger guns and doesn't really help its damage. The naga gets essentially one bonus unless you split fit it, which while it can be awesome, I don't think most people would use it.
I personally like the split fit idea, but at least give the Oracle a real bonus. Many amarr ships have this, but it isn't a bonus as so much a oh hey, now you can be on par with the other ships. Energy turrets don't do that much better damage to make using them worth the lack of a ship bonus on the ship itself. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
4
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
Btw
How does a Tornado handle vs a Hurricane or Typhoon? How does an Oracle perform vs a Harbinger or Geddon? |
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Bhaal Chinnian
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Regarding the Talos----> maybe decrease the cpu requirement slightly.
My sisi initial Talos fit : 8 large T2 neutrons, 2 T2 Webs, 1 meta 4 mwd, 1 TC2, 1 DC2, 2 T2 EANMs, 1 1600mm plate, 3 T2 trimarks 1 Reactive plating left me with just 1 cpu left \0/ nice and tight! :)
decent cap usage with that at around 4 min all mods on.
Obviously not a pvp fit since this thing would be wrecked before it ever got into range.....so please give damage bonus other than 5%.....change to 10%(or 15% per level if you are serious about addressing the 'Gallente & Hybrid problem')and ffs give it a drone bay!!! IT's GALLENTE!!
alll in alll ...nice target. |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
2
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Posted - 2011.11.04 22:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Btw
How does a Tornado handle vs a Hurricane or Typhoon? How does an Oracle perform vs a Harbinger or Geddon?
If you can outrange and still hold a point, tier3 will win. Otherwise you will lose badly because of EHP difference.
Basically you can forget about going solo on these, because first frigate or destroyer (which were buffed to nearly op state - catalyst can do up to 500dps and thrasher is not far behind) will tear you apart. They can't counter small ships and need support badly |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
4
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Posted - 2011.11.04 23:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
I still think it's a shame if these babies can fit the highest tier blasters, autocannons and pulse lasers though... If they will be able to, at least make sure they get REAL advantages of using lower tiers. Like MUCH better tracking or similar.
Pinky |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
64
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Posted - 2011.11.04 23:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
Okay, the Talos. This ship is completely worthless. It is outclassed as a blasterboat by the Tornado:
Blaster Talos with neutrons, dual MFS, 800 mm plate, dual trimarks and an ACR. It can do 1061 DPS with Void, at 6.8 km optimal and 6.3 km falloff. 33k EHP, 1308 m/s, 105 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.
AC Tornado, 8x 800s with Hail, CDFEs, DC, 4x gyros. 980 DPS with 3 km optimal and 36 km falloff. 31k EHP with overheated Invuln, 1662 m/s, 147 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.
If you are brave/stupid enough to fly a ship in the blasterboat role, the better ship for the job is the Tornado. It is much faster and much more agile so it can actually get close to apply DPS, and it has the falloff to apply DPS while trying to get close. Selectable damage types increase its applied DPS to basically the level of blasters. The Talos has almost no chance of winning in a fight between these ships. Of course, in reality, the Tornado does not need to go into blaster range to apply its DPS, unlike the Talos. But the point is that the Tornado is better than the Talos at the only job the Talos can do, and the Tornado can also apply DPS from far greater range.
The Talos is also outclassed by the Oracle. With 8x MP and 3x HS, it does 1022 DPS to twice the effective range of the Talos, with basically the same EHP, and the option to instantly switch to Scorch for 730 DPS at 45 km. Even worse than this, the Talos will also lose a straight-up fight at blaster optimal with a bog-standard shield Hurricane. The Talos's DPS advantage over the Hurricane is insufficient to make up for its inferior EHP.
Let's look at the rail Talos then. Its competitors are the Scorch Oracle, Tachyon Oracle, Rail Naga and artillery Tornado. To 50 km, the Scorch Oracle does pretty much the same DPS with twice the tracking. The Tachyon Oracle outdamages, outvolleys and out-tracks it at all ranges. The artillery Tornado outdamages and outvolleys it at all ranges. It doesn't matter what the Naga does.
There is simply no reason to fly the Talos. The blaster fit offers nothing that the Tornado, Oracle or Hurricane cannot also do as an afterthought, way aside from their main abilities. The Talos is utterly defenceless against frigates, while the Tornado and Oracle have the combination of tracking and range to hope to apply some sort of DPS to smaller ships. At long range, it is casually outclassed by tachyons and artillery.
The Talos, therefore, is hybrids in microcosm. It is completely pointless. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
4
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Posted - 2011.11.04 23:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
LOL - And nobody even care to put the Naga up for comparison... Because range just doesn't work as a substitute for raw damage when you cant get a practical advantage anywhere... |
Demon Azrakel
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
47
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Posted - 2011.11.05 00:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sad that CCP pre-nerfed the talos from early stats: No Drone Bay No Super-Web |
Dare Devel
Perkone Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.11.05 00:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Katabrok First wrote:Exactly what Hellen said. We need 2 bonus for each of the weapons systems that we will use in the naga. ! bonus for each doesn't cut it.
This is very true since the ROF for Seige launchers and Guns are too high. I tried a Naga with Rails and with Blasters. To be very very honest along with being paper thin( which they are supposed to be) their DPS is very bad against cruisers and BCs.
Its got only 3 lows so if we fit 2 TE + 1 Mag stab (DC II doesnt help on such a small tank) In the med 1x LSE, MWD, SB II, 2x Invul II, TP II In high 8 Neutron Blaster II or 8 425MM II. Rig-ACR I, Gun rig I, Agility Rig
It can definitely do one thing correctly. Hit nothing below BS --- just nada and dies ever so quickly.
For me its role is very specific - I dont yet know what that is. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
65
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Posted - 2011.11.05 00:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
The blaster Naga is worthless. There's no point fitting it with blasters, as the Tornado and Oracle deal much more DPS with much more range. It does sort of outrange the Talos, but does far less DPS. Pointless.
The rail Naga also appears to be worthless. At less than 50 km, everything else does more damage. Around 100 km is the closest it comes to being useful, as the rail Talos and Tachyoracle are running out of range. However, the Tornado can still outdamage it and massively outvolley it at 100 km, although the Tornado fit to do this requires two TCs and is a bit short of EHP. Ranges beyond 150 km are irrelevant.
The torp Naga is just hopeless. Torps are simply not very effective against other t3 BCs, because of the 450 m explosion radius and the relatively small sigs of these BCs. Basically, the Talos and Tornado do much more DPS that's much easier to apply (well, in the case of the Tornado, anyway). There's no reason to fly a torp Naga when the Tornado exists. |
PinkKnife
Garden Of The Gods
5
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Posted - 2011.11.05 00:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dare Devel wrote:Katabrok First wrote:Exactly what Hellen said. We need 2 bonus for each of the weapons systems that we will use in the naga. ! bonus for each doesn't cut it. This is very true since the ROF for Seige launchers and Guns are too high. I tried a Naga with Rails and with Blasters. To be very very honest along with being paper thin( which they are supposed to be) their DPS is very bad against cruisers and BCs. Its got only 3 lows so if we fit 2 TE + 1 Mag stab (DC II doesnt help on such a small tank) In the med 1x LSE, MWD, SB II, 2x Invul II, TP II In high 8 Neutron Blaster II or 8 425MM II. Rig-ACR I, Gun rig I, Agility Rig It can definitely do one thing correctly. Hit nothing below BS --- just nada and dies ever so quickly. For me its role is very specific - I dont yet know what that is.
Quick capital ship counters. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
21
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Posted - 2011.11.05 00:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The torp Naga is just hopeless. Torps are simply not very effective against other t3 BCs, because of the 450 m explosion radius and the relatively small sigs of these BCs. Basically, the Talos and Tornado do much more DPS that's much easier to apply (well, in the case of the Tornado, anyway). There's no reason to fly a torp Naga when the Tornado exists.
Even if you just shoot BS, the Oracle with the damage bonus would outgank the torp naga with conflag, since the naga lacks the 4. low for the 3. BCU(you need a DCU for torp range period). I still think the old oracle concept was better for overall balance compared to the other tier 3 BCs(except the Tornado). It was even better balanced compared to the Harbinger since the focus was purely longer range. |
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Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
31
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Posted - 2011.11.05 00:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tallest: I seriously suggest changing the Naga's missile bonus to include cruise missiles. Torps are going to mean nothing on a ship with that fragile a tank. The Naga would shine being able to kite BS at 130km.
Also: Helvitis Fokking Fok. You are my hero, mate. |
Sheeco Ziko
Frontier Pioneerz
0
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Posted - 2011.11.05 01:12:00 -
[52] - Quote
The Naga is in desperate need of having two bonuses for both hybrid and missiles. That is what i've always disliked about the typhoon you can never utilize both bonuses like for example a hurricane can. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
35
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Posted - 2011.11.05 01:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Give the Naga 'versatility'. Minmatar style.
4 Hybr Turrets, 4 Missile launchers, and one ROF bonus for each. Make it like a mini-Typhoon or Nag. Except without the vertical. Only requires twice as many damage mods - and twice the training to fly it, but versatility is awesome. Trust me.
I'd say the best way to go with the Tornado is to replace the silly falloff bonus with a 5% damage/level bonus. Kind of like the 'Cane. To balance it out, reduce the agility/top speed or even the tank. Then I'm happy.
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
89
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Posted - 2011.11.05 01:55:00 -
[54] - Quote
The current way the split bonus setup is being done now is just wrong. It doesn't deal out enough damage, and the mix between short range torps and long range rails just doesn't work.
Enable Torps AND Cruise to be fit, and drop the rail capabilities. Swap one of the weapon bonuses for a resist, and make the other one a range mod. this would make the Naga the only T3 BC with a tank bonus, but considering how fragile they are anyways, the difference shouldn't be OP. Requiring it to get in close with torps, or pummel from afar with Cruise. Fitting anything except resists on a Naga is already difficult if you want to keep a MWD, so maybe that will work? |
Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
19
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Posted - 2011.11.05 02:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Okay, the Talos. This ship is completely worthless. It is outclassed as a blasterboat by the Tornado:
Blaster Talos with neutrons, dual MFS, 800 mm plate, dual trimarks and an ACR. It can do 1061 DPS with Void, at 6.8 km optimal and 6.3 km falloff. 33k EHP, 1308 m/s, 105 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.
AC Tornado, 8x 800s with Hail, CDFEs, DC, 4x gyros. 980 DPS with 3 km optimal and 36 km falloff. 31k EHP with overheated Invuln, 1662 m/s, 147 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.
If you are brave/stupid enough to fly a ship in the blasterboat role, the better ship for the job is the Tornado. It is much faster and much more agile so it can actually get close to apply DPS, and it has the falloff to apply DPS while trying to get close. Selectable damage types increase its applied DPS to basically the level of blasters. The Talos has almost no chance of winning in a fight between these ships. Of course, in reality, the Tornado does not need to go into blaster range to apply its DPS, unlike the Talos. But the point is that the Tornado is better than the Talos at the only job the Talos can do, and the Tornado can also apply DPS from far greater range.
The Talos is also outclassed by the Oracle. With 8x MP and 3x HS, it does 1022 DPS to twice the effective range of the Talos, with basically the same EHP, and the option to instantly switch to Scorch for 730 DPS at 45 km. Even worse than this, the Talos will also lose a straight-up fight at blaster optimal with a bog-standard shield Hurricane. The Talos's DPS advantage over the Hurricane is insufficient to make up for its inferior EHP.
Let's look at the rail Talos then. Its competitors are the Scorch Oracle, Tachyon Oracle, Rail Naga and artillery Tornado. To 50 km, the Scorch Oracle does pretty much the same DPS with twice the tracking. The Tachyon Oracle outdamages, outvolleys and out-tracks it at all ranges. The artillery Tornado outdamages and outvolleys it at all ranges. It doesn't matter what the Naga does.
There is simply no reason to fly the Talos. The blaster fit offers nothing that the Tornado, Oracle or Hurricane cannot also do as an afterthought, way aside from their main abilities. The Talos is utterly defenceless against frigates, while the Tornado and Oracle have the combination of tracking and range to hope to apply some sort of DPS to smaller ships. At long range, it is casually outclassed by tachyons and artillery.
The Talos, therefore, is hybrids in microcosm. It is completely pointless.
Excellent analysis. After a couple of hours now, pretty much same conclusion. Very sad. Well, this is why we test. The question is now, will CCP do anything about it. Fundamentally the problem is all about hybrid/gallente ships as a whole needs to be addressed. The Talos is just an uber example of the overall problem, no way this thing can be a blaster boat with no tank. It has to be a rail gun platform as it stands. But why bother? The Tornado or Oracle do it far better.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
67
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Posted - 2011.11.05 02:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:
Excellent analysis. After a couple of hours now, pretty much same conclusion. Very sad. Well, this is why we test. The question is now, will CCP do anything about it. Fundamentally the problem is all about hybrid/gallente ships as a whole needs to be addressed.
CCP will not do anything about it, because they cannot. Their previous episodes of ill-thought-out power creep to lasers and projectiles have now forced themselves into a corner where all solutions are unattractive. Lasers and projectiles have intruded into hybrids' roles and become better than hybrids at the only things that hybrids can do.
There are three ways out of this problem, but all of them are impossible to implement. The first option is to boost blaster range, but this just homogenises the weapon systems. It's a stupid, lazy fix and everyone knows it. The second choice is to increase blaster damage until they have an advantage commensurate with the difficulty and danger of going into blaster range. The damage boost required would be absurd, about 50%. It simply will not happen. That leaves only the option of significantly reducing the applied damage of projectiles and lasers in the areas where hybrids are supposed to dominate. Since this would require widespread nerfs to ACs, tachyons, Pulse and artillery, it simply will not happen - the threadnoughts and ragequitting would be apocalyptic. |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
1
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Posted - 2011.11.05 02:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Not only that, but the Tornado is easier to move around if you're playing "Cram All Ze Ships In Ze Carrior" - the Tornado is 216k m3 whereas the Talos is 270k m3 (the difference between 3 and 4, for starters); I thought we had this discussion with battleships already, leading to the Hyperion et al getting knocked under 500k. Not only that, but the Tornado has an actual build cost of 10-ish M less, if I can trust other people's math.
Oh well, at least it looks neat :) |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
257
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 02:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
So let me get this straight.
You removed the web bonus from the Talos... because you didn't want to pidgeon hole the ship into blasters... in the process pidgeon holing it into rails.
People have now decided that these ships are sniping only... But yet the Naga has a torps with no torp range bonuses...
The Tornado and Oracle are fine (or overpowered!) depending on how you look at things. Whilst the Talos and Naga are pretty low on CPU and perhaps a tiny bit low on grid and missing a few things...
Talos is missing drones, Naga is missing a damage bonus on hybrids or a missile flight time bonus on torps in addition to the CPU to actually make use of it's mids. As it stands, there is just no comparison between the Tornado and Oracle vs the Naga and Talos. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Demon Azrakel
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
49
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Posted - 2011.11.05 03:22:00 -
[59] - Quote
So, why would I use a Talos now? It now has the same issues as a Brutix always had against minmitar BCs; lack of mobility, poor engagement range, poring EHP for those disadvantages. The 90% web gave it a chance and the 5 lights made it slightly special. Welp, CCP pre-nerfs Gallente again... |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
15
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Posted - 2011.11.05 04:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
sounds a lot to me like tallest still has a bit to go to balance hybrids and gallente ships!
the few sub-cap caldari ships used often in PVP in TQ are used because they either have ecm, heavy missiles or a generic weapon all races can use (bombs/torps)
Gallente ships are really only used for station and gate ganks cause of a cmbination of hybrid systems sucking and their whole ship philosophy fails with what stats they have.
unfortunately the caldari and gallente tier 3s may not really be suffering from ship stats bt theyre suffering frm hybrid weapons issues. if only the Naga could fit cruise instead of siege then all would be well in the caldari camp.
CCP FIX YOUR SHIP PHILOSOPHY ON GALLENTE!!!
heres a thought, give the talos back its drones and give it an all drone speed bonus, so that it can be pretty much the only ship that can effectively USE a couple of heavy webbing drones to get its blaster range to target.
cause as it stands, those drones are practically NEVER used, because theyre just sooo damn slow! its actually ironic how bad those drones are! |
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