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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.05 04:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
I really don't care about the balance. I just wanted some ships that weren't regurgitation of existing "design philosophies". 3/4 ships failed.
Take out the gimmick of mounting large weapons and these BCs don't even register as slightly interesting. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
228
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 05:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
Just wanted to give a quick report on the talos.
fit 8x neutron blasters, 10mn mwd II, sebo and not telling, lows - not telling rigs - not telling
All i can say is DAMN that sucker hits hard. i mean really hits hard. However for some really small annoying targets i would like to see mabye a 25m drone bay just for protection. Other than that, what i am using it for it works very nicely.
I should also mention - I have a specific hardwire set and booster I use. So that's why the talos as a blaster boat works for me. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 05:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
Torp fit Nagas are REALLY short on CPU, and don't have the lows to easily fit a co-proc to compensate. Naga needs work. Why have it be dual-weapons systems anyway? Get rid of the sniper rails bonus and make this a pure missile ship. |
Grimmash
Chaos Theory Exploration
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 06:28:00 -
[64] - Quote
Quick impressions (PVE)* from tooling around in a few L4s just t o test these out:
Naga: Pick one weapon system and boost that, or bring back 4 bonuses. Also, bring back that last low. But I like the weak tank, so maybe not bring back that low? This really felt like a BS hunter, but not so much anything else.
Talos: Needs work. Odd the rail fit worked well. I lost the blaster fit. Needs either more speed, more tank, or maybe (this one!) hybrids still aren't where they need to be. I still took so much damage closing range with the blasters that it cost me the ship. rails were just disappointing both compared to blasters and to the Tornado and Naga.
Tornado: Holy effing balls. 3 shotting BSs at 125km is fun, but, um, is that necessary? 2 of these may break BC mission balance.
Oracle: Can't fit large energy turrets. (me, not the ship)
Overall: Tornado seems a bit OP for missioning and for those situations where it could come in at the edge of the grid. Naga was the most glass cannony feeling to me - the torps were powerful, but you have to get into a nasty range to use them. I wanted to like the Talos, but given the choice of a Tornado, well.... I can only think of a few strategic situations where the Talos would be useful, and would rather use a Myrm for the unpredictability of that platform.
*I know these are more PvP with glasses and the cannons, but i just wanted to shoot things with new ships! |
Dare Devel
Perkone
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 06:29:00 -
[65] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Dare Devel wrote:Katabrok First wrote:Exactly what Hellen said. We need 2 bonus for each of the weapons systems that we will use in the naga. ! bonus for each doesn't cut it. This is very true since the ROF for Seige launchers and Guns are too high. I tried a Naga with Rails and with Blasters. To be very very honest along with being paper thin( which they are supposed to be) their DPS is very bad against cruisers and BCs. Its got only 3 lows so if we fit 2 TE + 1 Mag stab (DC II doesnt help on such a small tank) In the med 1x LSE, MWD, SB II, 2x Invul II, TP II In high 8 Neutron Blaster II or 8 425MM II. Rig-ACR I, Gun rig I, Agility Rig It can definitely do one thing correctly. Hit nothing below BS --- just nada and dies ever so quickly. For me its role is very specific - I dont yet know what that is. Quick capital ship counters.
I can understand if they fair well against a solo Dread or super. But they cannot fight against carriers.
Because the guns or launchers cannot hit drones orbiting below 5km even fighters.
It just cannot hit drones and torp hit for 20-40HP per volley. If a big fleet of these ships go for a carrier
for example 15+ still the single carrier will win. |
Party Lips
Blackened Skies
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 07:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
:( ccp gallente need its dps. short range is fine. it takes a heck of allot more work to get close to a target. i should be raping his face better then any other. i want to fly in raping in your face fleets. warp in to the face, free fire, pawn all over the face.
autos should not be able to be equal in the dps from blasters period. they have the range. so increase my pawn blaster dps. |
Junky Juke
Delta Division.
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 07:11:00 -
[67] - Quote
Demon Azrakel wrote:So, why would I use a Talos now? It now has the same issues as a Brutix always had against minmitar BCs; lack of mobility, poor engagement range, poring EHP for those disadvantages. The 90% web gave it a chance and the 5 lights made it slightly special. Welp, CCP pre-nerfs Gallente again...
This
I have looked at Talos tonight on Sisi... no drones? why? tracking speed instead of stasis weby bonus? why?  |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 07:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:Just wanted to give a quick report on the talos.
fit 8x neutron blasters, 10mn mwd II, sebo and not telling, lows - not telling rigs - not telling
All i can say is DAMN that sucker hits hard. i mean really hits hard. However for some really small annoying targets i would like to see mabye a 25m drone bay just for protection. Other than that, what i am using it for it works very nicely.
I should also mention - I have a specific hardwire set and booster I use. So that's why the talos as a blaster boat works for me.
That's the the point, it CAN"T HIT SMALLER SHIPS.
In fact using drones as point defense against smaller ships in general needs to be looked at. unless your packing medium or small drones, no BS should even be able to touch a frigate. |
Vmir Gallahasen
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 07:57:00 -
[69] - Quote
Schmell wrote:Pinky Denmark wrote:Btw
How does a Tornado handle vs a Hurricane or Typhoon?
How does an Oracle perform vs a Harbinger or Geddon? If you can outrange/outtrack and still hold a point, tier3 will win. Otherwise you will lose badly because of EHP difference.
In other words, you're going to lose badly
* Note: Except for the 'Cane, which is a standard nanocane, none of these ships have any tracking enhancers, computers, rigs, implants, or drugs. No drones are included. Each ship is fit with 3 damage mods
Shield-tanked tornado under attack: http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/tornadoshield.png
Armor-tanked oracle under attack: http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/oracle.png
You either fit an AB as well as MWD to reduce battleship down to a more manageable 200ish or you shoot from ultra long range. Preferably with something that hits really hard. OHHAI Tornado + Falloff + Artillery! Winmatar wins again! Oracle might compete, let's remove its range bonus so Winmatar wins even harder. Talos, you can chill in blaster hell with the other failed blaster designs or you can be that weird kid with rails that nobody likes to play with |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
7
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Posted - 2011.11.05 08:27:00 -
[70] - Quote
Demon Azrakel wrote:Sad that CCP pre-nerfed the talos from early stats:
No Drone Bay
No Super-Web
In trueth it's just hybirds that are pre-nerfed. The caldaire ship on the other hand is double pre-nerfed. It's ship bounses are spilt we all know how well that works out and well it's got the same hybird pre-nerf that all Hybird ships share together in one big pre-nerf faimly. |
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Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
16
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Posted - 2011.11.05 08:46:00 -
[71] - Quote
My quick view
Oracle
megapulse oracle 66k optimal 650ish dps with scorch, cruiser class buffer speed and insane agility
nice ship, criticism: possibly makes more expensive hacs useless?
Tornado
like oracle put out impressive dps with a bit less range than oracle while large ac's track pretty well and it's even more speedy than oracle. Minmatar cruiser speed.... 1700m/s.
Naga
I didn't really find anything good on this ship yet.
It has range bonuses and no damage bonus and while both it's weapon systems are pretty bad at hitting anything subcapital it will do nearly useless damage on about everything.
Torpedoes: difficult to fit both cpu and pg lacking with some decent fitting to go up close to torp range, not to mention other caldari downsides being slowest and least agile muppet.
Blasternaga: no useful damage output on ANY range. Any other equal ship will outdamage it on it's optimal while being more flexible in other ways like damage type and speed. Explanation for dummies: It does not help to have range bonus if you still get outdamaged on your bonused range by other ships with no damage bonus and you're slower and less agile than them.
Railnaga: pretty much same than blasternaga.
Talos
Can't fly this ship. But I suspect it has similar problems than hybrid naga while it can probably put out some more useful damage on some range.
Sidenote: Maybe it is time to get rid of caldari range bonus philosophy and change range bonus to damage bonus while balancing both blaster and railgun range compared to other weapon systems for BOTH gallente and caldari hybrid boats.
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Damion Rayne
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
14
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Posted - 2011.11.05 10:03:00 -
[72] - Quote
As it stands all four of these simply look pretty, and have a neat gimmick and that's about it.
Teamwork..
Maturity..
Tactics..
www.tacticalgamer.com |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
21
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Posted - 2011.11.05 10:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Naga:
In one word: bad. 
Possible torpedo based solution:
- increase the velocity bonus for torpedoes to 1.2.5-15% per level giving it more effective range(out of point/bubble range application and the ability to shot down posses)
- change the hybrid optimal bonus to the old explosion velocity bonus
- give it back the old fitting, HP and slot layout
Now you have a fairly good anti BS/Capital/Structure weapon, with a good range and a clear advantage over the others in this role(selectable damage types, highest DPS, clear focus).
I still see the speed penalty on javelin torpedoes, any update on what is the current stance of CCP about removing it? |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 11:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:Just wanted to give a quick report on the talos.
fit 8x neutron blasters, 10mn mwd II, sebo and not telling, lows - not telling rigs - not telling
All i can say is DAMN that sucker hits hard. i mean really hits hard. However for some really small annoying targets i would like to see mabye a 25m drone bay just for protection. Other than that, what i am using it for it works very nicely.
I should also mention - I have a specific hardwire set and booster I use. So that's why the talos as a blaster boat works for me.
The problem with the Talos isn't that it doesn't hit hard - because, as you found out, it does. The Talos's problem is that both the Tornado and the Oracle also hit very hard at blaster optimal, and have massive advantages in terms of range in addition, and in the Tornado's case, absurdly, mobility as well. Since the Talos offers no ability that the Tornado or Oracle cannot also do as an afterthought, there is no reason for it to be flown.
It's still better than the Naga though.  |
Kern Hotha
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 11:16:00 -
[75] - Quote
I flew only the Oracle (pulse), and only briefly at that. It can put out fine damage (937 dps @17 with the fit I was using) but the combination of large gun tracking, no drones, and meager tank (only slightly better than a cruiser) makes it a novelty ship in my eyes. Someone pointed out that it will probably excel as a cheap high security suicide ship.
I know that it's not going to happen, but I'd much rather see these ships be introduced as proper Tech 2 battleships. |
Xhondo Dhoru
Love Me Dead
ISKoholics Center of Rehabilitation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 13:06:00 -
[76] - Quote
Since you are cleaning house at CCP, do everyone a favor and fire the guy who keeps promoting the split-weapon ideology.
Split bonus on Naga means it only effectively has one bonus to the Talos and Tornado's two.
Having the option of either hybrids or torps is nice but the rokh already has a large hybrid optimal bonus (with far greater buffer) and look how many people use it. I can honestly only think of one alliance in all of EVE that actually uses rokhs instead of some other ship (like a mael). |
Cunane Jeran
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 13:29:00 -
[77] - Quote
I was just playing around with the Talos pvp a bit more, 425mm rail Nanofit, was honestly surprised, it wasn't bad |
Mariner6
EVE University
Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 13:38:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cunane Jeran wrote:I was just playing around with the Talos pvp a bit more, 425mm rail Nanofit, was honestly surprised, it wasn't bad
Did the same and thought the same, until I flew the Tornado. The Tornado is awesome. Why fly the Talos, they're all made for the exact same purpose and will go about it the same way. Can't fly the Naga so I can't give feeback on that. I'd say the Oracle seems very good also. |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 13:40:00 -
[79] - Quote
Cunane Jeran wrote:I was just playing around with the Talos pvp a bit more, 425mm rail Nanofit, was honestly surprised, it wasn't bad
its true... rails just need more tracking to compensate for the speed... about 5% more damage then now and a rof increase with a cap reduction and we are set...
i was having a boat load in the talos last night...
and the naga really really needs to be able to use cruise missles... torps are great but they are too close range... the naga needs a long range option thats not rails... tbh i would scrap the rails for the platform and just do a torp/cruise mix... get rid of the rail optimal range bonus and replace with a missles rate of fire... |
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 13:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
All new BC Tiers 3:
The agility is too good. decrease the agility by 20%
Make is not possible to fit 100 mn afterburner on it
Tornado :
Reduce the speed with mwd 1600 m/s is to much for t3
The bonus on the falloff is to much 5% is enough.
Naga :
Make twos bonus by type or arms
Twos bonus for missile and two for hybrid
Oracle :
Remove this stupid bonus of capa, and add some bonus of tracking.
After a lot of test that will be also very interesting to increse the weapons signature when you make them on BC Tier 1 and T2
With medium turret :
Crusier T1 and T2 keep 125
BC T1 and T2 make 200
With this modification that will be more interesting to fly again with cruiser T2 against BC. |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
15
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Posted - 2011.11.05 14:11:00 -
[81] - Quote
as much as i love the fact ccp have introduced a new line in accessable ships into eve, the manner in which they're implemented along with the still underpowered nature of Gallente ships and Hybrid turrents, means their only real power is in sniper ships.
Long range, big damage, small tank and high speed all scream sniper to me. You do not need to pigeon hole all new tier 3 BC's in the low tank long range bracket. but when u have a low tank, close range isnt an option unless u can really add not just buffer but resists onto it.
The new tier 3s dont work as t1 ahacs because their sig is too large and their AB speed is too slow, plus their resists are to poor.
if u want a gallente blaster boat to work it HAS to have a good active or passive tank on it, preferably the latter. Regardless of active or passive blaster boats neeeeeeeeed to have an extremely strong cap reserve/regen.
They commit 100% so they need to be stronger and more resilient than other ships in regard to scrams/webs/neuts.
ur working on new ewar/combat utility drones?? give the Talos either bonuses to those drones or the ability to use drones quicker on more agile ships. Battlecruiser skill bonus: 15% to Combat Utility Drone Max and Orbital Speed per lvl. for example. |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 14:48:00 -
[82] - Quote
For the sake of Ballance CCP Please rebalance all bc's as such:
Tier 1:
BS tank Cruiser dps
Tier 2:
Better then cruiers tank worse then bs tank better then cruiser dps worse then bs dps
Tier 3:
Cruiser tank
BS dps...
pretty much all you have to do to balance is nerf some tier II (like the drake) boost others (like the myrm)
and fix tier one BC's some needs more dps like the phrophecy and others need more tank like the brutix... |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
33
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Posted - 2011.11.05 15:22:00 -
[83] - Quote
There seems to be a problem with both the concept and implementation of these BCs and I seriously urge you to look at them again.
Implementation.
- From testing on Sisi, it seems that these BCs are able to track frigates in close orbits. Something is very wrong there.
Concept.
- These BCs are so fast and have such great range with such high dps that they will have effectively made sniper HACs, alpha BS and possibly even nano HACS completely obsolete, and that at a price far below what those other ships cost.
There is going to be initial euphoria when these ships first hit TQ and then there is going to be a great deal of anger with possible repercussions for CCP's business. Please think long and hard about that before these ships are implemented. |
nandodean
Cadetes de San Marcial
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 15:32:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tracking is awful. I engaged a Tornado with my Oracle and we couldn't kill each other, we were webbed, scrambled, at optimal weapon distance... but completely missed shots. Thats not good!! Even I couldn't put my max dmg to a Tempest in the same conditions!!
Also, a 25m3 and bandwidth for the gallente tier 3 BC |
Yaay
Bad Teachers
0
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Posted - 2011.11.05 16:07:00 -
[85] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Mariner6 wrote:
Excellent analysis. After a couple of hours now, pretty much same conclusion. Very sad. Well, this is why we test. The question is now, will CCP do anything about it. Fundamentally the problem is all about hybrid/gallente ships as a whole needs to be addressed.
CCP will not do anything about it, because they cannot. Their previous episodes of ill-thought-out power creep to lasers and projectiles have now forced themselves into a corner where all solutions are unattractive. Lasers and projectiles have intruded into hybrids' roles and become better than hybrids at the only things that hybrids can do. There are three ways out of this problem, but all of them are impossible to implement. The first option is to boost blaster range, but this just homogenises the weapon systems. It's a stupid, lazy fix and everyone knows it. The second choice is to increase blaster damage until they have an advantage commensurate with the difficulty and danger of going into blaster range. The damage boost required would be absurd, about 50%. It simply will not happen. That leaves only the option of significantly reducing the applied damage of projectiles and lasers in the areas where hybrids are supposed to dominate. Since this would require widespread nerfs to ACs, tachyons, Pulse and artillery, it simply will not happen - the threadnoughts and ragequitting would be apocalyptic.
the best fix was always the original intent that got patched out with a **** load of buffs to the other weapon systems.
AC's used to track much lower. Pulse used to track much lower. But both got patched to track much higher. It used to be that you could get in under their tracking and reduce their damage. Now, both can track easily which means if you do get in close range, you still have to deal with their full damage potential and your tracking boost means nothing.
The best fix to this option is to make Gallente the kings of AB warfare. IMO, BS should be moving around 600 m/s with an AB, and cruisers should be moving near 800-1000 with an AB to increase their abilities inside close range. They still have to get there, and they are still slower and can be kited at longer range. But in close range, the AB advantage makes them kings of close range warfare. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 16:20:00 -
[86] - Quote
nandodean wrote:Tracking is awful. I engaged a Tornado with my Oracle and we couldn't kill each other, we were webbed, scrambled, at optimal weapon distance... but completely missed shots. Thats not good!! Even I couldn't put my max dmg to a Tempest in the same conditions!!
Also, a 25m3 and bandwidth for the gallente tier 3 BC
So then your saying CCP did it's job and the ships are working as intended? |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
The G0dfathers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 16:32:00 -
[87] - Quote
So, all 4 ships bare apart from turrets and mwd. I've got identical skills for all.
Talos with 425mm rail II
Javelin 0.0207tracking 18+30 range 449.9dps
Spike 0.0041tracking 129+30 range 257.1dps
1603m/s
Tornado with 1400mm Artillery II
Quake 0.0140tracking 15+65 range 410.7dps
Tremor 0.0028tracking 108+65 range 234.7dps
1661m/s
Oracle with Tachyon II
Gleam 0.0044tracking 16.5+25 range 512.0dps
Aurora 0.0218tracking 118+25 range 292.6dps
1436m/s
Naga with 425mm rail II
Javelin 0.0150tracking 27+30 range 359.5dps
Spike 0.0030tracking 194+30 range 205.7dps
1386m/s
Best short range tracking- oracle
best long range tracking- oracle
best short range- tornado
best long range- naga (though this range is pretty useless with probes and warp to)
best short dps- oracle
best long dps- oracle
best speed- tornado
Anyone spot a trend here?
And why is the naga so damned slow? It makes no sense at all if the point of these ships is to be fast and mobile. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
120
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 16:40:00 -
[88] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Mariner6 wrote:
Excellent analysis. After a couple of hours now, pretty much same conclusion. Very sad. Well, this is why we test. The question is now, will CCP do anything about it. Fundamentally the problem is all about hybrid/gallente ships as a whole needs to be addressed.
CCP will not do anything about it, because they cannot. Their previous episodes of ill-thought-out power creep to lasers and projectiles have now forced themselves into a corner where all solutions are unattractive. Lasers and projectiles have intruded into hybrids' roles and become better than hybrids at the only things that hybrids can do. There are three ways out of this problem, but all of them are impossible to implement. The first option is to boost blaster range, but this just homogenises the weapon systems. It's a stupid, lazy fix and everyone knows it. The second choice is to increase blaster damage until they have an advantage commensurate with the difficulty and danger of going into blaster range. The damage boost required would be absurd, about 50%. It simply will not happen. That leaves only the option of significantly reducing the applied damage of projectiles and lasers in the areas where hybrids are supposed to dominate. Since this would require widespread nerfs to ACs, tachyons, Pulse and artillery, it simply will not happen - the threadnoughts and ragequitting would be apocalyptic.
still say more damage tho. granted I do agree on you in that point, but it's the more "benign" way to do it.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
63
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 16:49:00 -
[89] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Cunane Jeran wrote:I was just playing around with the Talos pvp a bit more, 425mm rail Nanofit, was honestly surprised, it wasn't bad Did the same and thought the same, until I flew the Tornado. The Tornado is awesome. .
i think half of the hybrid problems would simply go away if autocannons were nerfed. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
63
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 16:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
also i just wanted to comment on the ridiculous speed and agility of these BC's. have you guys completely forgotten about HACs? why would these BC's be a direct counter to an already rarely-flown ship class? |
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