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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9167
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Posted - 2014.02.06 14:17:00 -
[451] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply.
I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
673
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Posted - 2014.02.06 14:19:00 -
[452] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful.
I too would like to hear about this. Having this feature pretty much allows the FC to instantly control everyone's main weapon in the fleet, thus allowing massive volley damage from a ship that can instalock. Even with the 1.1 tracking link nerf this is OP.
Initially I was upset about the TL nerf but TBH I took another look and for the Domi it just means I had to change from Gardes to Bouncers. If they gave the RS the same bonuses as the Domi I think ti would work okay.
Edit:... Fozzie responded before I could finish typing my post |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
510
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Posted - 2014.02.06 15:11:00 -
[453] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply. I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries.
Would you be so kind as to list the dev team's view of the balance problem with sentries, in order of seriousness?
I am somewhat surprised that you do not share the view that this is their single most powerful feature. If there are other more pressing problems with them it would please me to be enlightened. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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EndersChild
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
15
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Posted - 2014.02.06 15:44:00 -
[454] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:you are going too heavy on the drone bonus.
a 25%, then a 50% then all those free DDA on a shield BS.......
yeah, sure, not OP at ALL
Special ability: 25% tracking for heavy / sentry, then keep all the rest of the bonuses, then it's OK
Fit all 4 ships with drones and T2 weapons with 4 x T2 damage mods on each and the RS is the poorest DPS, and this is with torps which will need the mid slots to get any application. You can also faction the other 3 ships damage mods, not as yet an option on the RS except with a BCS over DDAGÇÖs. Of course range isnGÇÖt being factored, but as far as a raw DPS number, it would be far from OP
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8934
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Posted - 2014.02.07 07:38:00 -
[455] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply. I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries. Would you be so kind as to list the dev team's view of the balance problem with sentries, in order of seriousness? I am somewhat surprised that you do not share the view that this is their single most powerful feature. You should probably read it again because he said nothing of the sort. My EVE Videos 59-15 |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
166
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Posted - 2014.02.07 07:53:00 -
[456] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You should probably read it again because he said nothing of the sort. That's what he said. |
Layla Firoue
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2014.02.07 10:29:00 -
[457] - Quote
EndersChild wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
Nah, just drop the missile projection bonus for an Optimal and Tracking bonus Disagree with losing the drone damage bonus, but agree with dropping the launcher one. Split weapon system bonuses suck when trying to slot increase both. The total damage bonus of 50%, 75% and 125% the Machariel, Vindicator and Nightmare achieve respectively means the RS is way behind. Make it an improved shield drone platform Special Ability: 25% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 4% shield resistance per level Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage per skill level 10% bonus to Drone optimal range per skill level
Ahaha 75% drone damage PLUS 50% optimal bonus LMAO are you completely out of your mind ?? |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
44
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Posted - 2014.02.07 14:26:00 -
[458] - Quote
Now this posting got unstickied, and there is no word yet if there will be any work done on the UI to actually display the information on active drones, or even those in the bay.
You cannot see how changing scripts or active modules change the drone stats - while it is common to get all those informations on your turrets.
Any words on this? Is there any work done to get those informations out to the drone users? |
Ace Echo
The Shadow Raiders Fleet Coordination Coalition
54
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Posted - 2014.02.07 16:18:00 -
[459] - Quote
Hexatron Ormand wrote:Now this posting got unstickied, and there is no word yet if there will be any work done on the UI to actually display the information on active drones, or even those in the bay.
You cannot see how changing scripts or active modules change the drone stats - while it is common to get all those informations on your turrets.
Any words on this? Is there any work done to get those informations out to the drone users?
If you actually read the thread, there's a post a few pages back where Fozzie states that he understands that people want it, but it would be quite a PITA to write the code for it, due to backend restrictions between elements. |
Narkomaan
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.02.08 15:02:00 -
[460] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone.
I want to officially clarify that the fact that drone attributes are not properly displaying in show info is a bug and that your Omnis are in fact applying their bonuses correctly. The issue with show info is a long standing bug that has to do with the way the client displays attributes on items that aren't your ship (or directly fitted to your ship). We're looking into getting it fixed, but it's not a simple issue.
The drones werent directly fitted to our ships before 1.1 and the attributes were showing correctly when drones were in our dronebay. I think we can accept the fact that drone attribues dont show when the drones are launched but why cant we see the bonused attribues when the drones are in bay when they were working before 1.1 and your telling that its really difficult to make them show correctly ? Im sorry in advance if i explained myself too hard to understand. Cheers.
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
516
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Posted - 2014.02.08 15:44:00 -
[461] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply. I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries. Would you be so kind as to list the dev team's view of the balance problem with sentries, in order of seriousness? I am somewhat surprised that you do not share the view that this is their single most powerful feature. You should probably read it again because he said nothing of the sort.
I read Fozzie's words very carefully. They were very carefully chosen to give away as little information as possible, probably because discussions were taking place with the CSM which seem to have resulted in the assist limit.
My view on that is that the assist limit is an anemic response and that a blanket prohibition on sentry drone assist is preferable since: 1. It ensures that every pilot has to participate in combat 2. It does not impact any existing non-sentry play styles. 3. It eradicates completely the unfair instant alpha that a sentry fleet enjoys, and will still enjoy at the squad level.
I speak as a very regular user of sentries.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
673
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Posted - 2014.02.09 00:36:00 -
[462] - Quote
I do understand why Fozzie can't just say what they're going to do when it's not set in stone. I think it's pretty cool that the game devs actually respond to their players concerns. This is why I'm glad CCP is a small company. They don't leave their customers out in the "cold" |
Shvak
The Warp Core Stabilizers Tactical Narcotics Team
42
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Posted - 2014.02.11 14:28:00 -
[463] - Quote
Speak as someone who has always loved the rattlesnake. Can we possibly get some clue as to how the non-nerf bat is going to hit the ship. More dps via the missile system (extra hard point or two) or is it likely to be hull bonus to drones similar to the Ishtar and domi. Would love to take my rattler out of its tomb for a spin.
My own 5 cents. I train missile skills early on in eve until I realized every sane toon owner was gun/drone training. It really would be nice if at least one of the faction battleships made it worth while training missiles skills again. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
674
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Posted - 2014.02.11 14:42:00 -
[464] - Quote
Shvak wrote:Speak as someone who has always loved the rattlesnake. Can we possibly get some clue as to how the non-nerf bat is going to hit the ship. More dps via the missile system (extra hard point or two) or is it likely to be hull bonus to drones similar to the Ishtar and domi. Would love to take my rattler out of its tomb for a spin.
My own 5 cents. I train missile skills early on in eve until I realized every sane toon owner was gun/drone training. It really would be nice if at least one of the faction battleships made it worth while training missiles skills again.
I hope they give it the same bonus as the Dominix. There is already the Raven, Navy Raven and Navy Scorpion that do missiles very well... I don't think they could make it a missile boat that is more powerful than the CNR because that would really be OP.
In theory a "Pirate Faction" battleship should be superior to their standard faction counterparts. At least this is true with all except the Rattlesnake and the SOE Nestor that just came out... They probably just released it kind of crappy so they can buff it later then people will be happy. It's better than releasing it OP then having to nerf it making everyone upset.
As to CCP announcing any specifics early I doubt they would do this till a final decision has been made. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
647
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Posted - 2014.02.11 16:17:00 -
[465] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Shvak wrote:Speak as someone who has always loved the rattlesnake. Can we possibly get some clue as to how the non-nerf bat is going to hit the ship. More dps via the missile system (extra hard point or two) or is it likely to be hull bonus to drones similar to the Ishtar and domi. Would love to take my rattler out of its tomb for a spin.
My own 5 cents. I train missile skills early on in eve until I realized every sane toon owner was gun/drone training. It really would be nice if at least one of the faction battleships made it worth while training missiles skills again. I hope they give it the same bonus as the Dominix. There is already the Raven, Navy Raven and Navy Scorpion that do missiles very well... I don't think they could make it a missile boat that is more powerful than the CNR because that would really be OP. In theory a "Pirate Faction" battleship should be superior to their standard faction counterparts. At least this is true with all except the Rattlesnake and the SOE Nestor that just came out... They probably just released it kind of crappy so they can buff it later then people will be happy. It's better than releasing it OP then having to nerf it making everyone upset. As to CCP announcing any specifics early I doubt they would do this till a final decision has been made.
I think the rattlesnake is a great and very powerful shield drone ship . It can fit a huge tank or buffer, a couple of neuts and do something like 1100dps to cruiser-sized targets in any damage type.
The omni change probably reduced its PVE capability but the PVP capability is stupendously good.
The Nestor is capable in groups (I have proven this on the test server) when flown very carefully as a small pack. However, it's nowhere near good value at current prices. For the same money I'd certainly be happier with 6 rattlesnakes rather than 2 Nestors on grid.
If the nestor was the same price as the rattlesnake, would I choose the rattlesnake still? I think that's a little closer call. I think they are about as powerful as each other as a pair, with the nestor getting a little more powerful up until it reaches its targeting limit.
I and a few mates sometimes run a doctrine of domis + geddons supporting each other with remote reps. A Nestor might be useful in this kind of spider fleet... but the cost...
As a side note, when fitting a Nestor or a Rattlesnake I would not dream of using large guns or missile launchers. Mediums actually apply more dps and leave plenty of CPU and power for things like neuts and remote repair.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords Codex Aevum
68
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Posted - 2014.02.22 15:53:00 -
[466] - Quote
Well the problem here is so laughably obvious that it's a pain to even state it: (read only 7. for the short form)
1. Module-Bonus: Most modules give bonuses around 12,5%-25%: (those with boni around 25% are the ones that usually go to half of all ships flown around) Examples: - Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane: 25% resistance bonus (max skills) - Magnetic Field Stabalizer II: 1.1 * 1.105 = 21,55% damage bonus - Reactor Control Unit: 15% Powergrid - Overdrive Inector System II: 12,5% Speed - Tracking Computer II some 15% boni
2. Ship:Bonus: Ship-Bonuses usually look like that: - 25% Turret Damage bonus (those already force the weapon onto you) - 20% Resistance Bonus (usually force shield or armor onto you)
3. Special Ship-Bonus: Some extraordinary bonus like the rokks: - 50% boni to Hybrid optimal are so heavy that not many ships have them and they are missing many other boni to compensate
4. Why do we need a 50% drone bonus on all drone-ships? Now we have the following problem with drones: - most ships can use them - we wont dedicated drone ships -> The only reason to do that is to give ALL of the drone-ships a high bonus (50%) to compensate.
5. What would happen if the bonus would be in line with the other bonuses? If this would be put any lower one of the following problems would emerge: - drones are well balances for drone-ships -> drones are far too strong for regular ships - drones are well balanced for regular ships -> drones are too weak for drone ships - one would have to remove drones from regular ships - drone ships would need another bonus That's why as long as there are regular ships with drones the high 50% drone damage bonus is important.
6. Why were all drone ships fair and it was possible to balance them all at once? - All drone ships have a bandwith fitting to their size/cost and are capable of beeing drone ships - All drone ships have a 50% damage bonus - all drone ships are uncapable of using a secondary high-dmg weapon without gimping the ship - All drone ships have regular other bonuses around 15-25% - Those bonuses can be compensated and be worked around with modules who do around the same amount - Because of stacking penalty its impossible to get one bonus over the top - ship bonuses dont receive stacking penalties so its important that they are not too high
7. So what is messed up right now? - The bonus of 37,5% tracking on the domi/ishtar is far too high - The bonus of 37,5% optimal on the domi/ishtar is far too high - its completly impossible for a regular drone ship to compensate for that without gimp-fits Now ccp has bad choices: - don't change anything and dominix/ishtar will be too strong and other drone ships will be too weak - bring the tracking/optimal of the dominix/ishtar in line with gunships -> all other drone ships will have huge tracking issues - bring the tracking/optimal of the regular drone-ships in line with gunships -> dominix/ishtar will be ridiculously strong
And ccp has some good choices: - nerf the dominix/isthar in annother way to compensate for the godlike range/tracking and make them specialized (tank) - give the 37,5% bonus to tracking/opti to ALL drone ships - lower the tracking/opti bonus to a reasonable amount that usual drone ships can achieve due modules (20%)
What ccp has done here is a horrible choice of action: The high bonus of 37,5% was already hard to achieve with the old omnis. With nerfing the omnis this has become utterly impossible now. With omnis and dominix/ishtar-bonuses as they are it's almost impossible to bring both in line. -> reduce the tracking bonus to 4% per level and adjust the dominix/ishtar so they are still viable. Only then can all ships be usefull.
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
132
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Posted - 2014.02.22 21:05:00 -
[467] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: But the honest truth is that Sentries were too good relative to other comparable weapons. Their damage envelope (the combination of range, damage and tracking) is very good and was one of several contributing factors that were leading to Sentries becoming overly dominant in almost all areas of EVE. Like I said in the original post, the fact that these changes reduce the power of Omnis is completely intentional.
We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment.
Only on ships with a bonus for tracking and range. It is why the rattlesnake got screwed. |
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