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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
8919
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I expect this will be the long thread
Hello again! This thread will cover the overhaul to Omnidirectional Tracking Links that we are planning for Rubicon 1.1 in conjunction with the Overheating Iterations.
I advise reading the Heat Iterations post before this one.
TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers.
The fact that this decreases the overall power of Omnis (especially for gaining optimal range) is intended.
Sentry drones are obviously one of the more discussed weapon systems in the EVE community right now. This is not the only change we will ever make to drone mechanics, but it is a change we believe will improve the game balance. Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range. Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.
The Omnis will keep their same fitting requirements (a bit higher than TCs), will have a 10s duration, and will enjoy significantly lower cap use compared to Tracking Computers. They will use exactly the same scripts as Tracking Computers and Remote Tracking Computers.
We believe that with these changes Sentry Drones will still be very viable and popular weapon systems, and that the results will be a better set of choices for players to make when fitting and flying. As I said above, these are not the only changes that we will ever make to Sentry Drones, so to assume that this means we won't be willing to touch them again sometime in the future would be a mistake.
These changes will be live on SISI very soon for your testing, and we as always thank you in advance for your constructive and useful feedback.
Thanks! Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
15
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
quick question will those now be stacking penalized with drone rigs ? yes / no ? |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
8919
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vinyl 41 wrote:quick question will those now be stacking penalized with drone rigs ? yes / no ?
Yes Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Frantico
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
20
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nvm |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
173
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Glad to see some attention is being paid to the incongruent parts of drone damage application. Thanks for the update. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1080
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
I jsu think it will make the current problem WORSE> because now with trackign scripts the thing will track even BETTER.
I think the range and track bonus should be inverted inrelation to the track comptuer ones. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
MissBolyai
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
65
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
DBRB - 1
Grath - 0 |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
520
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
so 10% boost to either range or tracking, i like that
ty raivi you have been a good asset to us once again )) |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2856
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:I jsu think it will make the current problem WORSE> because now with trackign scripts the thing will track even BETTER.
I think the range and track bonus should be inverted inrelation to the track comptuer ones.
But they have to pick range or tracking, not both. Granted, range will be the no-brainer nine times out of ten because sentries already track better than guns at almost any given range, but that's a separate issue. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
520
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Does this mean the Omnis now also get a falloff bonus? |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1080
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:I jsu think it will make the current problem WORSE> because now with trackign scripts the thing will track even BETTER.
I think the range and track bonus should be inverted inrelation to the track comptuer ones. But they have to pick range or tracking, not both. Granted, range will be the no-brainer nine times out of ten because sentries already track better than guns at almost any given range, but that's a separate issue.
The problem I see is. Gardes + Dominix + 3 Omni with track scripts will track even more.
They are going to be insanely effective at murdering small stuff.
I think BOTH bonuses of the module should be 15-20% when scripted. 30% will be too much for tracking and will tip the balance TOO MUCH in favor of dominix forces.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1080
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jack bubu wrote:so 10% boost to either range or tracking, i like that
ty raivi you have been a good asset to us once again ))
no.. its " ike Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range."
that measn 30% to tracking!!
They will track MORE than now. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
173
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
After carefully choosing I have selected a youtube appropriate for this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbEj1CIpuU This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
838
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:I jsu think it will make the current problem WORSE> because now with trackign scripts the thing will track even BETTER.
This. So true. Sentries have INSANE tracking already. The concept was good, but its application will be bad. This is what happens when trying to rebalance the whole drone thing one bit at a time. G££ <= Me |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1174
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
exact values plz :) We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
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Posted - 2014.01.16 15:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yes, please make Sentries track better, it's not like we are killing Interceptors with Battleships already. |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
231
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Funny thing is that sentry drones don't actually even need to omnidirectionals to shoot to what is generally considered max range for most carrier fleets for example. They have 105km drone control range and T2 bouncer has 60+42km range without a single omnidirectional. So if scripted tracking value is better than what the current omnis have, what this change seems to end up being is a buff to non-sniping drone doctrines because now they can increase tracking if they want. And the tracking is already pretty insane. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6093
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
darius mclever
59
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Yes, please make Sentries track better, it's not like we are killing Interceptors with Battleships already.
which really begs the question as Fozzie nerfed all the base stats in preparation of the heat changes. (see capital turrets)
maybe tracking and range bonuses for drones boats should be nerfed as well to balance out with those new changes? |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2117
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
You should consider dropping the tracking bonus from the Dominix and then bringing the optimal bonus back up to 10% per level. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
486
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 15:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Approved. Please remove drone assist and make faction non-officer DDAs. |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
195
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Completely fair changes. You guys were cautioned on how ridiculous these were compared to their turret equivalents, glad you finally caught up with your user feedback... long after implementing them. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
992
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
as long as my ishtar can volley with bouncers from 150k still, okay |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1174
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer.
cap use is missing ;)
We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
246
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. So.. - 25% optimal, 25% tracking turns to either - 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking - 15% optimal, 30% falloff - 30% tracking
Correct?
So the range difference depends on the optimal vs. falloff now. On first glance It looks like a buff for Bouncers and okay for the rest. Ofc you can overheat now, so there's that. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1676
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
So we can ecpect a low slot addition too right? If omni are now on par with tc we need a te eq There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Tiberu Stundrif
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
I was worried that you guys would nerf them too hard, but I am quite please with these changes. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
8934
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. cap use is missing ;)
Good point. It's 4 cap per activation (10s activation) I updated the OP with it. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
8934
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. So.. - 25% optimal, 25% tracking turns to either - 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking - 15% optimal, 30% falloff - 30% tracking Correct? So the range difference depends on the optimal vs. falloff now. On first glance It looks like a buff for Bouncers and okay for the rest. Ofc you can overheat now, so there's that.
This is correct for Tech 2. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
231
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. So.. - 25% optimal, 25% tracking turns to either - 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking - 15% optimal, 30% falloff - 30% tracking Correct? So the range difference depends on the optimal vs. falloff now. On first glance It looks like a buff for Bouncers and okay for the rest. Ofc you can overheat now, so there's that.
Should be a nerf to drone sniping and pretty much a buff to close range fighting from what I can understand. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1087
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:as long as my ishtar can volley with bouncers from 150k still, okay
with bouncers.. yes but less effectively (more within falloff). With curators you wont snipe that far anymore. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Tarmo theGreat
League of xX420BLAZEITSWAGGOTXx. Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
wtb new ccp workers, whose work would not nerf old stuff every month, but making new stuff.and more fun. |
Dominionix
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
These values would be fine if sentry drone range / tracking was more in-line with turrets and a single person wasn't able to pull the trigger for an entire fleet of ships at exactly the same time (in turn achieving perfect alpha) every four seconds or so... Unfortunately, they can, so all you've done is increase the close-range tracking of an already disgustingly broken mechanic. Now not even the interceptors will escape. Thanks Fozzie. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
379
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Will ship bonus to sentry range apply to falloff as well? |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
8939
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:Will ship bonus to sentry range apply to falloff as well?
No, although there will always be the option of adding drone falloff bonuses to ships/rigs/other modules in the future. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
120
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:I jsu think it will make the current problem WORSE> because now with trackign scripts the thing will track even BETTER.
I think the range and track bonus should be inverted inrelation to the track comptuer ones. But they have to pick range or tracking, not both. Granted, range will be the no-brainer nine times out of ten because sentries already track better than guns at almost any given range, but that's a separate issue.
A separate issue that really needs to be adressed. Buff my turrets! |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Last Resort.
553
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
The big question: Can we still use these to increase the tracking speed of our heavy drones to chew up small ships? Now more then EVER? Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2118
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, are there considerations on implementing rogue drone faction mods as well as federation navy and imperial navy drone mods?
Rogue drone mods for drone complexes and sites. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
TruExXx
Mafia Redux Phobia.
19
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
I think that this will be an overall good change. It will create a new piloting and fitting meta for drone boats. Thanks Fozzie :) |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1942
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:54:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. So.. - 25% optimal, 25% tracking turns to either - 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking - 15% optimal, 30% falloff - 30% tracking Correct? So the range difference depends on the optimal vs. falloff now. On first glance It looks like a buff for Bouncers and okay for the rest. Ofc you can overheat now, so there's that. This is correct for Tech 2.
So what you are saying is that my Garde II's are now getting killed on optimal in my mission boats, plus I now have to deal with cap issues. Man, do you ever hate high sec mission runners, and love the goon whiners.
Your allegiances could not be more transparent. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2112
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
What is their reload speed? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2119
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 16:58:00 -
[42] - Quote
Your garde IIs will be murder machines even more so than before. You lose about 3km optimal, but will still be able to hit to 60km easily. Then switch to a tracking script and obliterate close things also. Edit that's with one omni Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1943
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Your garde IIs will be murder machines even more so than before. You lose about 3km optimal, but will still be able to hit to 60km easily. Then switch to a tracking script and obliterate close things also. Edit that's with one omni
I fit 2 Fed Navy Omni's to my Proteus for low sec exploration work. My Garde II's currently have a range of 49 km optimal + 12 km falloff.
With these changes, my effective DPS at ships orbiting me at 50 km (many NPC BS's) is hugely screwed. Plus I now have much larger cap issues. I could not run a cap stable ship before, but it was good for 7-8 minutes. Now, that time is hugely hammered.
Of course, the T3 is on this guy's chopping block anyway, so I might as well sell it off now.
Can't wait until this guy starts wrecking my Ishtar again. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6100
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually" "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Janeway84
Aliastra Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hey Fozzie!
Nice ideas with new drone features / rebalancing, but is there a chance that you guys could add some deadspace drone mods too?
And like i said in the main post prob would be sweet if you could overheat your drone dmg mods to squieeze more dps out of your drones? So a drone boat could increase it dps the same like a turret ship could |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
233
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually"
If it only were so but unfortunately only certain overpowered flavor of months get nerfed and some stay overpowered for years (cough cough bombers cough).. |
Chron X
Ixion Defence Systems Insidious Empire
13
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jesus, this is utterly stupid. Why would you make it a scripted active module? Just nerf the percentages a notch or two, or give drone users a low slot inactive module like a TE. Let's nerf all the things in ways that don't really affect anyone but high sec players.
Rubicon 1.1. It's like walking in stations, but affects gameplay, and doesn't fix any of the underlying issues: drone assign is just a dumb mechanic, tidi makes the game unplayable in most fights, and node crashes. |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
248
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Hmm, can we get a skill that increases drone falloff? |
Blackfin Arbosa
New Eden Order Sev3rance
24
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 17:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Between this and the sentry nerf might as well sell that Domi I just bought |
Von Brawn
My Highsec Backbone
6
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:10:00 -
[50] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:I jsu think it will make the current problem WORSE> because now with trackign scripts the thing will track even BETTER.
I think the range and track bonus should be inverted inrelation to the track comptuer ones.
This seems like a good change to me. Now instead of blapping interdictors 5km away from you AND a battleship fleet 120km off you have to make a choice between tracking or range. Good stuff. |
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Von Brawn
My Highsec Backbone
6
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Posted - 2014.01.16 18:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Your garde IIs will be murder machines even more so than before. You lose about 3km optimal, but will still be able to hit to 60km easily. Then switch to a tracking script and obliterate close things also. Edit that's with one omni
But in heavy tidi swapping scripts and activating/deactivating modules take ages and sometimes bug out completely where you have to drag another module on top of another to get it to quit cycling red. Most if not all weapon systems come in a tracking/high Dmg or long range/lesser damage flavor and sentries should be no different. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1948
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:exact values plz :) He said them: exactly the same as the same meta tracking computer. So.. - 25% optimal, 25% tracking turns to either - 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking - 15% optimal, 30% falloff - 30% tracking Correct? So the range difference depends on the optimal vs. falloff now. On first glance It looks like a buff for Bouncers and okay for the rest. Ofc you can overheat now, so there's that. This is correct for Tech 2.
While you geniuses in the "kill high-sec" dept are high-fiving each and giggling about your latest attack, can you at least not forget to alter the Fed Navy modules? Or are they going to undergo a total obliteration as you "forget" to alter the stats and they are the same as a T2 module?
Does the Fed Navy module go to 18% optimal, 36% falloff (Fed Navies are 20% better than T2 Omni's) or: (and this is the one I am betting on, given how much fozzie hates high sec), it gets the Shadow Serp TC bonus of 16 / 32%?
Either way, it is part of a QUADRUPLE nerf to them. They now have:
a. reduced optimal b. never before cap issues c. stacking issues d. a huge nerf in base stat effectiveness if the Serp/Fed Navy tracking computer stats are applied. e. huge huge loss in tracking if in range mode
Assuming the worst (which is always safe when dealing with this dev), using Garde II's:
One Module Now: 39 km optimal + 12 km falloff
One Module, post fozzie mayhem: 34.8 km optimal + 15.84 km falloff
Shooting anything beyond 40 km just took on a huge nerf in effective damage. I don't even want to get involved in calculating 2 modules, but the effective nerf is much much worse.
I wonder if fozzie flies the PL flag at his cubicle, or if it is just at home and on his T-shirts? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
307
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
So hey, while we're talking about sentries, is there a reason why drone assist doesn't work in lowsec against neutrals? Are we pirates not allowed to play all of EVE or what? I like these starting nerfs to sentries though. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1948
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:27:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sephira Galamore wrote:Hmm, since falloff will be more relevant now, can we get a skill that increases drone falloff?
//Edit: Did some math that tells me Dinsdale looses about 15% DPS in his special scenario(2 Faction OTL, Garde II, 50km range), -10% DPS if he overheats.
It is not so special actually. The same losses apply in L4 missions. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1948
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually"
Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP.
Not too much hypocrisy there. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Stinky WizzleteatsJr
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:56:00 -
[56] - Quote
I do find it rather stupid that you making the omnis scripts for range to "bring them in line with turrets" without making a drone tracking enhancer to "bring them in line with turrets". Rather hypocritical don't you think? |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
225
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 18:57:00 -
[57] - Quote
Good change to address some of the range issues with sentries, though i'm pretty concerned about the tracking on gardes/faction drones with overheated, scripted TC's on 37.5% bonused ships |
MukkBarovian
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
11
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:04:00 -
[58] - Quote
Are you going to do something about the Ishtar and Domi 37.5% bonus to optimal range and tracking? Because no amount of these new nerfed Omnidirectionals are able to replicate that. |
Tiberizzle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
39
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:05:00 -
[59] - Quote
Can you guys think of some way to do this that doesn't cement another bias against shield caps into the game?
Almost nobody uses shield caps because you guys clearly fukken hate them. There are no viable shield tacklers, 2-3 of the 4 carriers can't really do a fleet-viable buffer in shield.
Now shield fits will have to turn off the omnis to switch on hardeners -- 10 seconds is too long, you're already dead to the dread volley that initiated your refitting event.
Armor has no compromise between tank and untimed DDAs, and no time-sensitive / survival-dependent midslot refittings. |
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
251
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:34:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sephira Galamore wrote:Hmm, since falloff will be more relevant now, can we get a skill that increases drone falloff?
//Edit: Did some math that tells me Dinsdale looses about 15% DPS in his special scenario(2 Faction OTL, Garde II, 50km range), -10% DPS if he overheats. It is not so special actually. The same losses apply in L4 missions. I'm sure it applies to pirate L4s, too. And some nullsec sites. It certainly applies to me, too. In fact I can't wait for the EFT data files on this so I can see how exactly I can handle ranged sleepers now. So far it felt pretty OP actually, dealing full damage at range and still blapping MWDing frigs at <20km. |
|
Leigh Akiga
Laissez-faire Economics
493
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:37:00 -
[61] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually" Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP. Not too much hypocrisy there.
The first clue that there was a problem came in the alliance tournament with the number of Dominix doctrines.
Then we have this alliance update from esteemed CSM Member Progodlegend:
"Yes, that's right. GÇ£Ishtar.GÇ¥ As promised ever since the HAC rebalance changes were first announced, the hour of Ishtar Secunda is now upon us. Disregard Domis; acquire Ishtars. The sentry drone is victory; the sentry drone is life."
And then look at what is being fielded in 0.0 today:
Goons: Dominix EMP/TEST: Dominix PL/NC/N3: Sentry carriers, Ishtars, Proteus-(which recently had its fit tweaked to drop sentries wlolo) Fountain Conflict/kerfluffle: FA/Li3: Dominix Razor: Ishtars Triumvirate: ishtars Lead Farmers: Ishtars DARKNESS.: Switching to Dominix SOLAR FLEET: switching to Dominix
Literally everyone in 0.0 is flying Ishtars, Dominix or sentry carriers
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4353
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:47:00 -
[62] - Quote
Stinky WizzleteatsJr wrote:I do find it rather stupid that you making the omnis scripts for range to "bring them in line with turrets" without making a drone tracking enhancer to "bring them in line with turrets". Rather hypocritical don't you think?
I'm ok with omni changes per se but this guy is right.
It reminds me of the propsed changes that would have had tracking mods affect missiles. Missiles are fundementally different from turrets and it was a dumb-ish idea. Doing something to "bring drones in line with turrets" seems similarily dumb-ish. |
Alim Omaristos
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
9
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
Well I am very pleased with this idea, will an easier way to see drone statistics in space be implemented? When I used to use drones for pve it was several clicks to see the drone range and the effect of modules and skills, now we will have to know drone range and tracking as mods and scripts change it. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1951
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:52:00 -
[64] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually" Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP. Not too much hypocrisy there. The first clue that there was a problem came in the alliance tournament with the number of Dominix doctrines. Then we have this alliance update from esteemed CSM Member Progodlegend: "Yes, that's right. GÇ£Ishtar.GÇ¥ As promised ever since the HAC rebalance changes were first announced, the hour of Ishtar Secunda is now upon us. Disregard Domis; acquire Ishtars. The sentry drone is victory; the sentry drone is life."And then look at what is being fielded in 0.0 today: Goons: Dominix EMP/TEST: Dominix PL/NC/N3: Sentry carriers, Ishtars, Proteus-(which recently had its fit tweaked to drop sentries wlolo) Fountain Conflict/kerfluffle: FA/Li3: Dominix Razor: Ishtars Triumvirate: ishtars Lead Farmers: Ishtars DARKNESS.: Switching to DominixSOLAR FLEET: switching to DominixLiterally everyone in 0.0 is flying Ishtars, Dominix or sentry carriers
Small thing:
I have been using my Proteus Sentry boat long long before the HAC/ Domi overhaul. Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Oh Takashawa
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
9
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Man Dinsdale, I love how mad you get, and how victimized you make yourself feel. You ***** almost as much as Poetic did - I look forward to your RMTing crybaby blog post when you quit. |
Edmark I
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 19:58:00 -
[66] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP
This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance.
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
280
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
And the assist mechanic that is real issue? Oh wait .... TIDI IS NIGHTMARE - CCP SHOW US THE TIMERS Reactivation timers on : MJD and more. Please like & post in this idea to keep it visible. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
280
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
What the .... Why are you making nullsec pvp : assist and go to sleep. What is wrong with thinking by youself?
Sov PVP is one of the aspects of this game - why keeping it so dumb? TIDI IS NIGHTMARE - CCP SHOW US THE TIMERS Reactivation timers on : MJD and more. Please like & post in this idea to keep it visible. |
Capqu
Love Squad
404
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:32:00 -
[69] - Quote
why don't drone control range modules have stacking penalties yet
its 2014 fozzie http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Tankn00blicus
sleep Deprivation INC. LLC Brothers of Tangra
33
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
Capqu wrote:why don't drone control range modules have stacking penalties yet
its 2014 fozzie http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_penalty
Quote:If a module with the stacking penalty is added along with a module that enhances the same effect by an absolute number (regular, non-percentile), the module with the absolute value will not be reduced in effect. For example, I add a 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates I module to my ship. This boosts armor by 3000 hit points. I then add two Regenerative Plating I modules, which boost armor by 6% each, with the effect of the second one being reduced. The effect of the 1600mm plates is unchanged. |
|
Capqu
Love Squad
404
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
i understand that, i'm saying its time for change
obama was right http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Llyona
sleep Deprivation INC. LLC Brothers of Tangra
41
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance.
I for one am extremely excited about these buffs to sentry drones. Now we can push our drones even further or have them track even faster. Keep up these buffs to sentries CCP! EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1952
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:46:00 -
[73] - Quote
Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance.
Ah. back to that canard. One of your other zealots, Jenn whatever, has posted that 11% of the player base is in Sov alliances. Hate to to break it to you, but once again we see a far larger group (PVE focused players), getting screwed to deal with a problem that ONLY occurs in large blob-sec fleet fights. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Cloora
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
124
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:48:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, I think most of us are fine with these changes, but for the love of all things in New Eden, can you change all scripted modules to have the scripts BUILT IN TO THEM?!
I hate having to find and buy all the scripts to make a module work like it was designed to in some back woods null sec. Just make the modes selectable. I hate getting into batte and then realizing I forgot the other script when I need to change.... http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
|
Llyona
sleep Deprivation INC. LLC Brothers of Tangra
41
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 20:49:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance. Ah. back to that canard. One of your other zealots, Jenn whatever, has posted that 11% of the player base is in Sov alliances. Hate to to break it to you, but once again we see a far larger group (PVE focused players), getting screwed to deal with a problem that ONLY occurs in large blob-sec fleet fights. Hey Dinsdale,
They could always do what some other MMO companies have done to solve this problem; Creating two seperate modifiers. One for PVP and one for PVE. So, when you shoot at rats, you get the PVE stats. When you shoot at players or POS, you get the PVP stats.
Frankly, I'd prefer a homogeneous setup though, as it can get pretty ridiculous with a dual system. EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
480
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
Good change. We'll have to test the numbers to see how well it plays out. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Malken
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
50
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:03:00 -
[77] - Quote
[quote=CCP Fozzie
Sentry drones are obviously one of the more discussed weapon systems in the EVE community right now.![/quote]
and here i am thinking that neutral logis is the most discussed one :P
Gÿ+/ /Gûî / \
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1952
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:05:00 -
[78] - Quote
Llyona wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance. Ah. back to that canard. One of your other zealots, Jenn whatever, has posted that 11% of the player base is in Sov alliances. Hate to to break it to you, but once again we see a far larger group (PVE focused players), getting screwed to deal with a problem that ONLY occurs in large blob-sec fleet fights. Hey Dinsdale, They could always do what some other MMO companies have done to solve this problem; Creating two seperate modifiers. One for PVP and one for PVE. So, when you shoot at rats, you get the PVE stats. When you shoot at players or POS, you get the PVP stats. Frankly, I'd prefer a homogeneous setup though, as it can get pretty ridiculous with a dual system.
I also think a dual system ispretty ridiculous. But for CCP to damage the play of the majority to deal with a problem being experienced, if it is indeed a problem, by the small minority, is foolhardy.
Instead of dealing head-on with the issue of blobs, they try these bandaid solutions, which wreck a game mechanic for oh so many who never see, or want to go near, a blob. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:07:00 -
[79] - Quote
So if we're going for equity between guns and drones what are the plans on: Low slot cap-less tracking enhancer for drones? Faction (Navy) drone damage amplifiers? Rate of fire rigs for drones? Over-heatable mods (drone damage amplifiers or the drones themselves) for drone damage? Drone damage/rate of fire/tracking implants?
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8525
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Capqu wrote:why don't drone control range modules have stacking penalties yet
its 2014 fozzie Drone link augmenters are balanced. After all, we need to fit six of the T2 DLAs in order to hit out to 200 km, and that's only so that our drones will activate. We still have to fit several omnis for them to actually apply any damage at that distance.
The real culprit here is the drone assist, which allows us to shoot that far without having to be able to lock at that distance. My EVE Videos |
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
350
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:23:00 -
[81] - Quote
Just do a balance pass on drones already.
They have unique problems, and I am sorry that using their strengths in null sec has caused issues with the vocal minority. They deserve some deve time and love.
I am not opposed in general to making omnis active, but look at the whole setup and please stop killing them an inch at a time to make the gun bunnies happy. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6119
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 21:38:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cloora wrote:CCP Fozzie, I think most of us are fine with these changes, but for the love of all things in New Eden, can you change all scripted modules to have the scripts BUILT IN TO THEM?!
I hate having to find and buy all the scripts to make a module work like it was designed to in some back woods null sec. Just make the modes selectable. I hate getting into batte and then realizing I forgot the other script when I need to change.... I expect the answer is "not without a month's worth of programming". "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8530
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:06:00 -
[83] - Quote
That's actually a good question... why do we even have scripts in the first place? My EVE Videos |
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
125
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:17:00 -
[84] - Quote
Did you really just buff Sentry drones? |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Terra Incognita Insidious Empire
138
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
Instead of nerfing Omni's for the CFC and Goonswarm Fozzie, maybe when the CFC picked up their CSM/CCP Batphone and whined and b!tched someone in CCP could have had the ballz to tell them to ESCALATE!
ESCALATION = PROBLEM SOVLED!
Totally disapprove of a change like this in the middle of a War! Srsly? |
Ponder Stuff
Deadly Intent. Cynosural Field Theory.
15
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:42:00 -
[86] - Quote
Well done fozzie........ :/ |
ZheoTheThird
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
207
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
Hey, Sentries are the most used weapon system in the game for both PvE and PvP of every scale, let's buff them!
Thanks for making afktars and domi blobs even stronger than they are, Sentries really needed a buff, seeing as how they were severely underused in the current meta. This is starting to feel like BoB, how come balance and game design seem so favored towards one of the largest powerblocs in the game, the name of which shall not be mentioned? |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1060
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 22:45:00 -
[88] - Quote
Seems pretty reasonable to me, they probably should have always been like that.
Any plans for lowslot drone tracking modules? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
163
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 23:06:00 -
[89] - Quote
Capqu wrote:why don't drone control range modules have stacking penalties yet
its 2014 fozzie
Mathematically an additive bonus that increments by a fixed amount ALREADY IS stacking penalised automatically. Adding a fixed amount has diminishing percentage returns.
If the DLA gave a percentage increase in drone control range a stacking penalty would be necessary. The DLA gives a fixed bonus so the stacking nerf is already built into the module.
Example of current T1 DLA (adds 20km) and assuming initial drone control range before DLA of 60 km.
1st DLA adds 30% to range 2nd DLA adds 25% to range 3rd DLA adds 20% to range 4th DLA adds 17 % to range 5th DLA adds 14% to range
|
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Backseat Promises
993
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 23:19:00 -
[90] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:as long as my ishtar can volley with bouncers from 150k still, okay with bouncers.. yes but less effectively (more within falloff). With curators you wont snipe that far anymore.
i only used wardens or bouncers for that kind of stuff |
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3390
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 23:42:00 -
[91] - Quote
Will these changes be live before the NEO tournament in March? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1106
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 23:51:00 -
[92] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually" Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP. Not too much hypocrisy there. The first clue that there was a problem came in the alliance tournament with the number of Dominix doctrines. Then we have this alliance update from esteemed CSM Member Progodlegend: "Yes, that's right. GÇ£Ishtar.GÇ¥ As promised ever since the HAC rebalance changes were first announced, the hour of Ishtar Secunda is now upon us. Disregard Domis; acquire Ishtars. The sentry drone is victory; the sentry drone is life."And then look at what is being fielded in 0.0 today: Goons: Dominix EMP/TEST: Dominix PL/NC/N3: Sentry carriers, Ishtars, Proteus-(which recently had its fit tweaked to drop sentries wlolo) (Heavy Domi use last year during Fountain War) Fountain Conflict/kerfluffle: FA/Li3: Dominix Razor: Ishtars Triumvirate: ishtars Lead Farmers: Ishtars DARKNESS.: Switching to DominixSOLAR FLEET: Switching to DominixLiterally everyone in 0.0 is flying Ishtars, Dominix or sentry carriers
but these changes just make the domi MORE POWERFULL relative to its opposition that was nerfed way more "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Omega Crendraven
The Scope Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 23:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Fozzie BEST DEVELOPER ON CCP, PLEASE INTRODUCE RLML SENTRY DRONES
Nennamaila TASK FORCE 133.7 Nevher ferget
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
163
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 23:59:00 -
[94] - Quote
Interesting side effect of the new version is that using a silly number of omnis (say 3 tracking-scripted 2 range-scripted and a scope rig to pull the optimal up a bit) seems to give better tracking and range then using a similar number of the existing omnis. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 00:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
ROFL...a sentry drone tracking buff? Seriously? |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 00:37:00 -
[96] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Leigh Akiga wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually" Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP. Not too much hypocrisy there. The first clue that there was a problem came in the alliance tournament with the number of Dominix doctrines. Then we have this alliance update from esteemed CSM Member Progodlegend: "Yes, that's right. GÇ£Ishtar.GÇ¥ As promised ever since the HAC rebalance changes were first announced, the hour of Ishtar Secunda is now upon us. Disregard Domis; acquire Ishtars. The sentry drone is victory; the sentry drone is life."And then look at what is being fielded in 0.0 today: Goons: Dominix EMP/TEST: Dominix PL/NC/N3: Sentry carriers, Ishtars, Proteus-(which recently had its fit tweaked to drop sentries wlolo) (Heavy Domi use last year during Fountain War) Fountain Conflict/kerfluffle: FA/Li3: Dominix Razor: Ishtars Triumvirate: ishtars Lead Farmers: Ishtars DARKNESS.: Switching to DominixSOLAR FLEET: Switching to DominixLiterally everyone in 0.0 is flying Ishtars, Dominix or sentry carriers but these changes just make the domi MORE POWERFULL relative to its opposition that was nerfed way more
CCP's balance methods are rather perplexing I have to admit. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
631
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 01:17:00 -
[97] - Quote
Rattlesnake, Gila, Navy Dominix ?
ie I see a whole lot of balancing of modules around the two overpowered gallente droneboats.
|
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
263
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 01:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
This'll help the Nestor be more effective- I like that "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
964
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 01:51:00 -
[99] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:That's actually a good question... why do we even have scripts in the first place?
I'm guessing because the code can't do it. I don't know of any module type which can change it's active properties by user selection without the use of a charge.
We do have reactive armor hardener doing it on the fly for you so that might mean it is actually possible to get rid of the scripts at some point. |
Neverlasting Fear
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 03:53:00 -
[100] - Quote
Fozzie why don't you just add a reload feature to sentries, after firing 5 or 7 times, they have a 40 second reload timer, this is a fair and balanced way of fixing all the problems with sentries without doing a ton of work. |
|
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 03:54:00 -
[101] - Quote
Neverlasting Fear wrote:Fozzie why don't you just add a reload feature to sentries, after firing 5 or 7 times, they have a 40 second reload timer, this is a fair and balanced way of fixing all the problems with sentries without doing a ton of work.
They'll be more fun too. 40 second reloads are super fun. |
Mukun
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 04:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
the assisted drone shouldnt be able to shoot before your ship lock the target, i think this can solve the drone assist problem, then with some drones enhancer module nerf, it will balance the drone and other weapon system |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
245
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 05:58:00 -
[103] - Quote
Did Drone Upgrade modules need to be adjusted? Obviously, that answer is 'yes.'
That said, the proper time to do it would be when you are finally getting around to balancing DRONES!
The modules that affect something as complex as drone mechanics need to be adjusted in conjunction with the drone mechanics themselves, instead of independently.
Stop patching stuff in bits & pieces, and do the job right, or don't touch it all. |
Neuroxer
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 06:44:00 -
[104] - Quote
CCP shut off your brainless ideas!!! CCP on drugs |
Goran Konjich
Imperial Collective
97
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 07:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP ! are you becoming a bit insane ? ... pls pls get brainstorming meetings OUT from your schedules and address existing problems and issues in your game.
This is getting ridiculous and extremely over the top ... and not funny at all. I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE. |
Rammix
Cosmic Clowns Killers Red Alliance
249
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 08:17:00 -
[106] - Quote
No way to see drone control range in drone window; drone control window does not display even dps for drone groups; drone control window is so old.. I came to eve in 2010, this window hasn't seen any sensible changes since that time, at the very least; drone control mechanics desperately need to be revamped...
Yet instead of doing some real updates you just go through boost/nerf cycle once more. Making sentry based doctrines a de-facto standard way to pvp for every fleet. You could at least try to modify the modules without boosting or nerfing anything, keeping them on the same level (like: with script = as was before). They're not badly balanced and not too weak, damn you, their control mechanics are just too old and ugly. OpenSUSE 13.1, wine 1.7 Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2779
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 08:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:They'll be more fun too. 40 second reloads are super fun. I see what you did there... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
69
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 10:08:00 -
[108] - Quote
Do you ever plan to fix the bug where bonuses from skills, ship bonuses and omnidirectional tracking links are ignored when you use "show info" on your deployed drones? |
RumpenII
97
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 10:12:00 -
[109] - Quote
Hodor executive producer of "Rubicon" ? |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
13572
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 10:32:00 -
[110] - Quote
I suggest that instead of converting the current OTLs into active modules, just make a NEW module that is active, named Omnidirectional Tracking Computer, and leave the passive ones be.
This is my opinion of the correct course of action as tracking computers have a passive equivalent while OTLs do not. This would make even more sense if you, CCP Rise, did one of the following:
1. put the passive OTLs in the low-slots
OR
2. put Tracking Enhancers in the medium slots. Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
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Connall Tara
Conquering Darkness
113
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 10:58:00 -
[111] - Quote
I don't like this change, clearly the only possible solution is to call for fozzie to be fired from the company and imply that all of CCP are taking drugs! SUCH A REASONABLE LINE OF ARGUMENT THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY LISTEN TO REASON!
I KNOW MORE ABOUT PVP THAT CCP FOZZIE THEREFOR MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN HIS!
AND THIS IS CHEWBACCA, HE IS A WOOKIEE FROM THE PLANET KASHYYYK! BUT CHEWBACCA LIVES ON ENDOR! THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! AND THEREFOR NOTHING SHOULD CHANGE ABOUT THIS MODULE WHAT SO EVER!
*ahem*
more seriously...
Quote:As I said above, these are not the only changes that we will ever make to Sentry Drones, so to assume that this means we won't be willing to touch them again sometime in the future would be a mistake.
Fozzie, your mistake here was not writing this line in 10 foot tall block capitals straddled by exotic dancers and launching fireworks from every angle. its not clear enough :P
based on what we're seeing now however.
the vast majority of dominix/ishtar layouts don't really use these modules due to the inherent strengths of the optimal and tracking bonuses. while people certainly do make use of these in more limited quantities, particularly when midslots are not at a premium, it does leave us somewhat in the dark onto how dangerous these modules could be. is there a time frame for when we can hope to see further changes to the sentry drones or in fact drones in general?
overall i somewhat like this shift into more decision oriented game play, the fits have become slightly less cookie cutter on the whole and some attention will be required for scripting for the right situation, one might however argue for more demand on capacitor however as a counter measure against spamming these modules, the downside to the active module choice is nice but without knowledge of intended changes to sentry drones there is only so much I can speculate.
TLDR: I approve of more choice based game play, concerned about how the changes will affect sentries when future sentry changes are unknown, wookiees shouldn't live with 2ft high ewoks. Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Yes... I like the new RLML's. why? because I drive french on World of tanks and understand just how evil burst dps can be. |
Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
29
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 11:28:00 -
[112] - Quote
eve is a hard game, i like it when devs make it that way : ) Thans for update (is used domi/ishtar daily, and i think it was too easy )
well now say Hi to my uber tracking Heavy OP turbo ishatr ^^
Ps. Tears are delicious |
Odithia
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 11:36:00 -
[113] - Quote
Half people complaining that drones are getting horribly nerfed to uselessness. The other half complaining that drones are already overpowered and don't need another boost.
Looks like good balancing to me. But I doubt it will change much. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
634
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 11:41:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Vinyl 41 wrote:quick question will those now be stacking penalized with drone rigs ? yes / no ? Yes
any chance of making drone rigs worth using/ adding greater range?
also how about more details of how a sentry domi fitted with 2 omnis atm changes with the current changes? maybe graphs please Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Cyril Nethrad
Yawm ad-Din
5
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 12:50:00 -
[115] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers. I like the changes, but could you then bring the skill requirements in line with the TC, too? Currently the tech 2 TC requires it's corresponding skill at 4 (like most T2 modules), while the tech 2 Omni needs Drone Sharpshooting at 5.
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Connall Tara
Conquering Darkness
114
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 13:06:00 -
[116] - Quote
Cyril Nethrad wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers. I like the changes, but could you then bring the skill requirements in line with the TC, too? Currently the tech 2 TC requires it's corresponding skill at 4 (like most T2 modules), while the tech 2 Omni needs Drone Sharpshooting at 5.
eh, upon double checking the skills involved.
my own skillpoint spread has pulled the points out of charisma and put them into the other skills and i'm currently in a no implant clone, but for me i got the following...
the T2 omnidirectional tracking link is provided by drone sharpshooting V, which is a rank 1 skill. (level 5 = roughly 4 days and 19 hours or so)
on the other hand, T2 tracking computers are provided by trajectory analysis IV, which is a rank 5 skill. (level 4 = roughly 4 days and 4 hours or so)
all things considered the training time for both modules is roughly similar and doesn't need changed really. Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Yes... I like the new RLML's. why? because I drive french on World of tanks and understand just how evil burst dps can be. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4366
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 13:20:00 -
[117] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance. Ah. back to that canard. One of your other zealots, Jenn whatever, has posted that 11% of the player base is in Sov alliances. Hate to to break it to you, but once again we see a far larger group (PVE focused players), getting screwed to deal with a problem that ONLY occurs in large blob-sec fleet fights.
You get it wrong again. There are bout 90,000 characters in SOV holding alliances according to CCP the last time they put out the numbers. The 11% are characters IN null sec during the snap shoot, not all of which are sov alliance members (some are even npc corp alts used for scouting, afk cloaking, whatever).
A lot of those 90k SOV alliance characters are in high sec for various reasons, Like me for instance being in Lanngisi with 2 of therm running missions.
Even many non sov alliance characters are alts of people in sov alliance. This myth about the high majority is easily debunkable for anyone with any moral sense who is interested in the truth. No on would accuse you of that.
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Nlex
Domini Canium
28
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 13:46:00 -
[118] - Quote
Aww, and I just found a way to use drones in PVE again that'd make them comparable in performance with guns. Was really proud of that, even if I had to fit drone upgrade modules in 75% of slots on my Domi, and sacrifice both tank and mobility. Oh, and missiles are nerfed by -10% to TP, so my Rattle will not fare much better. Gotta go train me some T2 turrets. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1125
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 14:09:00 -
[119] - Quote
Nlex wrote:Aww, and I just found a way to use drones in PVE again that'd make them comparable in performance with guns. Was really proud of that, even if I had to fit drone upgrade modules in 75% of slots on my Domi, and sacrifice both tank and mobility. Oh, and missiles are nerfed by -10% to TP, so my Rattle will not fare much better. Gotta go train me some T2 turrets.
No, they reverted and are not goign to change TP base stats.
But YEs, you SHOULD have t2 turrets. What you doing without them? they are very cheap and fast to train now. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
979
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 14:44:00 -
[120] - Quote
Will have to see how much this affects my playstyle. Hopefully not too much. Kind of fishy things like this start getting nerfed once certain entities start whining about it. Next it will be drone assist, which I use a lot. Eve is becoming less interesting more and more. Sigh. |
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:22:00 -
[121] - Quote
Querns wrote:Glad to see some attention is being paid to the incongruent parts of drone damage application. Thanks for the update.
Cry moar, it will get done. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:26:00 -
[122] - Quote
Vexor Navy Issue needs a cap recharge rate boost to make up for it then, and other ships should also be considered. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:28:00 -
[123] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I expect this will be the long thread Sentry drones are obviously one of the more discussed weapon systems in the EVE community right now. Thanks!
Cause goons are getting splatted by them and "It's just not fair". |
scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:41:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers.
Since they are now like Tracking Computers, when are you going to make Tracking Disruptors affect drones? |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1290
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:50:00 -
[125] - Quote
good job making drone scope chips worthless again.
also @dinsdale, its much more a nerf to low/null pve which relies more on ishtars than it is to hisec.
TBH, this hurts gardes more than any other drone type, as those other drone types get enough range as it is, people were only stacking tons of omnis so they could get garde's to shoot at the range of the longer-range drones rather than actually switching to longer range drones. Garde's also have crap falloff.
That said, my anomaly-running ishtar with 4 DDAs and 3 omnis, getting 817 dps at 79km optimal was a bit ridiculous.
I am glad to see that Fozzie is at least paying lip service to the notion that sentries need to have significant upsides over other weapon systems to make them worth using. This nerf isn't that huge, what worries me is that there are surely more nerfs to come.
Give us drone range and damage implants in exchange?
scimichar wrote: Since they are now like Tracking Computers, when are you going to make Tracking Disruptors affect drones?
They already do... if you target the drone. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 15:50:00 -
[126] - Quote
Dominionix wrote:These values would be fine if sentry drone range / tracking was more in-line with turrets and a single person wasn't able to pull the trigger for an entire fleet of ships at exactly the same time (in turn achieving perfect alpha) every four seconds or so... Unfortunately, they can, so all you've done is increase the close-range tracking of an already disgustingly broken mechanic with a slight decrease in damage at extreme ranges. Now not even the interceptors will escape. Thanks Fozzie.
Edit: But on the plus-side PvP is much more interesting now that we don't even have to click buttons or watch three grey bars turn red, someone else can do it for us, so at least there's that...
Oh wait.
All this because you are unable to expand beyond you capabilities of pressing F1. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1973
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 17:27:00 -
[127] - Quote
Batelle wrote:good job making drone scope chips worthless again.
also @dinsdale, its much more a nerf to low/null pve which relies more on ishtars than it is to hisec.
TBH, this hurts gardes more than any other drone type, as those other drone types get enough range as it is, people were only stacking tons of omnis so they could get garde's to shoot at the range of the longer-range drones rather than actually switching to longer range drones. Garde's also have crap falloff.
That said, my anomaly-running ishtar with 4 DDAs and 3 omnis, getting 817 dps at 79km optimal was a bit ridiculous.
I am glad to see that Fozzie is at least paying lip service to the notion that sentries need to have significant upsides over other weapon systems to make them worth using. This nerf isn't that huge, what worries me is that there are surely more nerfs to come.
With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank. I don't know how you operate such a ship in null, but I guarantee you that if you dropped such a thin tank into the 2nd room of WC, or Sansha Vengeance, you would be toast.
And I do a fair bit of low sec exploration. Domi's are NOT a ship for that, and have more than my share of scares in Aridia in an exploration Ishtar. No thanks for those anymore. So the Stratios and Proteus are my defacto ships for exploration, and they just got killed with these Omni changes. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Catastrophic Uprising
23
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 18:09:00 -
[128] - Quote
Easier to quit flying drone ships than messing with stuff... |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2781
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 18:14:00 -
[129] - Quote
When can we expect the end of drone assist? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1290
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 18:19:00 -
[130] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Batelle wrote:good job making drone scope chips worthless again.
also @dinsdale, its much more a nerf to low/null pve which relies more on ishtars than it is to hisec.
TBH, this hurts gardes more than any other drone type, as those other drone types get enough range as it is, people were only stacking tons of omnis so they could get garde's to shoot at the range of the longer-range drones rather than actually switching to longer range drones. Garde's also have crap falloff.
That said, my anomaly-running ishtar with 4 DDAs and 3 omnis, getting 817 dps at 79km optimal was a bit ridiculous.
I am glad to see that Fozzie is at least paying lip service to the notion that sentries need to have significant upsides over other weapon systems to make them worth using. This nerf isn't that huge, what worries me is that there are surely more nerfs to come.
With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank. I don't know how you operate such a ship in null, but I guarantee you that if you dropped such a thin tank into the 2nd room of WC, or Sansha Vengeance, you would be toast. And I do a fair bit of low sec exploration. Domi's are NOT a ship for that, and have more than my share of scares in Aridia in an exploration Ishtar. No thanks for those anymore. So the Stratios and Proteus are my defacto ships for exploration, and they just got killed with these Omni changes. With 79km gardes and a warp-in, you can get by with literally no tank. Ishtar permaruns a mar and AB with 1 cap recharger. at 70km warpin nothing hits you, doesn't matter if its a forsaken hub, sactum, or the 12 ship waves from a haven. If you wait long enough grand admirals will start to plink you, but even then i can tank quite a bit of them before i actually need to hit the ab and start orbiting. If you primary the long range BS, you won't even get your shields taken down before stuff dies. In other words, it would work against any faction. It works so well that even if my gardes get their ranged nerfed slightly, I don't think I'll need to adjust my fit at all. And if it does get too difficult, i can always use longer ranged drones. As for missions, I can fit a plenty-large tank on while still rocking 2 DDAs and a t2 sentry rig. MWD to range, kill stuff with 723 dps (or 786 with 3 ddas and a rig). I can even dual prop it if i want. Or add a 1600 RT no problemo. In actual deadpsace complexes, its a bigger issue, but I always have wardens in my back pocket.
I agree sentry stratios/proteus are hurt by this, but if they were okay before then this certainly hasn't 'killed' them. Cap use could be an issue on the gila or stratios. You just won't be getting 50-60km gardes so easily anymore. Curators, bouncers, and wardens aren't nearly affected as much by this (drones whose lower dps is made up by longer range and hitting on weakest resist). The scope rig nerf sucks, at least for the geddon/phoon/Ndomi/domi/Rsnake. I don't think scope chips are common on cruisers, but I might be mistaken. In particular, my rattlesnake is very sad about this development.
Tracking loss from omnis seems mostly irrelevant for PVE purposes, except as a minor inconvenience.
Again, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. This change is one i find fairly easy to swallow. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
|
FaulEnza N00bist
The Squad Yulai Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 19:51:00 -
[131] - Quote
ZheoTheThird wrote:Hey, Sentries are the most used weapon system in the game for both PvE and PvP of every scale, let's buff them!
Thanks for making afktars and domi blobs even stronger than they are, Sentries really needed a buff, seeing as how they were severely underused in the current meta. This is starting to feel like BoB, how come balance and game design seem so favored towards one of the largest powerblocs in the game, the name of which shall not be mentioned?
In PvE, realy?!, hard to believe. My subjective experience in PvE over almost 4 years says NO. Pre Drone-Aggro-Nerf there were, let me guess, around 20% of my contact who uses drones. The majority used and loved their non-destroyable weapon systems. After the Drone-Aggro-Nerf the number of Drone users was getting smaller, it sucks even more (btw i use drones all time because i haven't any other weapon skills or time and will to skill them).
To the changes as self: why not if they are REAL balanced in a long way of testing.... oh, wait... short-circuit action less then 2 weeks before release. ...again and again hasty action.... you will never learn it, shame on you CCP
That scripts, well good question. There are blueprints to build them and guys who make ISK with them. And CCP get no clue to compensate all these blueprint owner. Idea: you still need the scripts to produce e.g. OMNIs, TCs and so on, but their functionality will be inside the items where you can switch the modes.
--- You will mind it, thats not my native language. Deal with it (...harsh and dark and so on...). |
Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
44
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 20:59:00 -
[132] - Quote
Dear CCP Adolf Fozzler,
this does not change a thing. Drone mechanics need a complete overhaul.
From RVB to Low Sec Pirates up to Null Sec Blocks. The ultimate goal are now Sentry doctrines.
Vexors,Ishtars, Sentry Prophecies and Myrmidons up to Dominixes and Archons. There are barely any other doctrines beeing used anymore.
And adding these scripts gives these doctrines even more possibilites to be used as snipers or counters to more mobile doctrines.
Not even for PVP alone Sentry Combat is also more than common for PVE now as well.
Why don't you just stop implementing stupid **** like deployable crap and look into things that are clearly broken.
I am not saying that Sentries themselfes need to be nerfed (what you are trying to do here in some way) but especially the assisting mechanic needs to be looked at.
I really don't understand your concept of creating content for this game since all I see are pointless buffs and nerfs , deployables only a small group of players really care about and sadly failing attempts of balancing broken mechanics instead of real content and changes that matter.
Why would I want to play a game where all I do is aggressing/assisting my drones and then be afk for the next hours.
It is boring gameplay that completly took EVE over What this game needs is exciting and proactive gameplay. Not "assist drones" or "F1" and go AFK bullshit. |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
253
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 21:08:00 -
[133] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I expect this will be the long thread Hello again! This thread will cover the overhaul to Omnidirectional Tracking Links that we are planning for Rubicon 1.1 in conjunction with the Overheating Iterations. I advise reading the Heat Iterations post before this one. TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers.The fact that this decreases the overall power of Omnis (especially for gaining optimal range) is intended. Sentry drones are obviously one of the more discussed weapon systems in the EVE community right now. This is not the only change we will ever make to drone mechanics, but it is a change we believe will improve the game balance.
Because anything that Goons complain that they can't deal with is obviously unbalanced, right?
CCP Fozzie wrote: However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
As I said above, these are not the only changes that we will ever make to Sentry Drones, so to assume that this means we won't be willing to touch them again sometime in the future would be a mistake.
So, you're giving them an immediate 'downside', which must be done NOW, but the 'upside' can wait until you get around to it.
Because you had to kiss DBRB's ass NAOW about nerfing sentry drone range (completely getting rid of drone assist would have been just too blindingly obvious, I guess), these changes could not have waited until you actually got off your ass and FIXED DRONES AS AN ENTITY!
You want to adjust DRONES, then ADJUST THEM! Your blind caving to whatever Goonswarm doesn't like is not helpful to the long-term success of CCP - "Goons-In-Space" does not encourage new subscribers, and will only drive away everyone else. |
Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
44
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 21:41:00 -
[134] - Quote
Meyr wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:I expect this will be the long thread Hello again! This thread will cover the overhaul to Omnidirectional Tracking Links that we are planning for Rubicon 1.1 in conjunction with the Overheating Iterations. I advise reading the Heat Iterations post before this one. TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers.The fact that this decreases the overall power of Omnis (especially for gaining optimal range) is intended. Sentry drones are obviously one of the more discussed weapon systems in the EVE community right now. This is not the only change we will ever make to drone mechanics, but it is a change we believe will improve the game balance. Because anything that Goons complain that they can't deal with is obviously unbalanced, right? CCP Fozzie wrote: However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
As I said above, these are not the only changes that we will ever make to Sentry Drones, so to assume that this means we won't be willing to touch them again sometime in the future would be a mistake.
So, you're giving them an immediate 'downside', which must be done NOW, but the 'upside' can wait until you get around to it. Because you had to kiss DBRB's ass NAOW about nerfing sentry drone range (completely getting rid of drone assist would have been just too blindingly obvious, I guess), these changes could not have waited until you actually got off your ass and FIXED DRONES AS AN ENTITY! You want to adjust DRONES, then ADJUST THEM! Your blind caving to whatever Goonswarm doesn't like is not helpful to the long-term success of CCP - "Goons-In-Space" does not encourage new subscribers, and will only drive away everyone else.
Dear Mr. Scrub McPublord,
I am pointing out a obv. broken mechanic. Which i found annoying long before my "CFC OVERLORDS" went rampage out it.
I highly reccomend reading comprehension lessons before posting a reply. Thank you for taking your time to read but sadly to not understand what I was posting.
Goons do not drive away any subscribers. I am sorry if we took your stuff and you get depressed about that but that is part of the game.
Other than that , your blind, delusional and butthurt Anti-CFC dwelling is in no context.
Drone mechanics need a revamp and my point stands. Now you can go cry on EN24 comments section. |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
253
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 22:07:00 -
[135] - Quote
Reading comprehension was never an issue. The fact is that nothing was done with drones, specifically sentry drone mechanics, until you lot started complaining that you couldn't break the Archon fleets, and suddenly, a SMALL portion of an overall far larger issue is addressed, specifically the aspect that will 'correct' some of what you whiners were shedding so many tears over, but everything else that's wrong with drones can conveniently wait until CCP gets around to actually doing something that should have been addressed PRIOR to them even touching ship re-balancing, because, sure as hell, once they get done 'fixing' drones, they'll need to address what will then be OP drone boats.
Go whine on TMC, little Goon, and leave grown-up decisions to grown-ups. You don't like it when CCP obviously kissing your asses gets pointed out, stop asking for special treatment. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
781
|
Posted - 2014.01.17 23:56:00 -
[136] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
21. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.
Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited.
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
605
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 02:30:00 -
[137] - Quote
I'm praying for the best but expecting the worst due to CCP's track record of drone nerfs. I used to fly a Dominix for missions but except for frigate heavy ones I rarely undock it now due to drone aggro issues. Most of my PVP ships use guns for primary DPS so it won't affect me on that side. |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
254
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 03:48:00 -
[138] - Quote
I find it rather remarkable that, while it's generally agreed that Drone Mechanics have, for years, been in dire need of some love from the Dev team (let's be honest - Drone Mechanics should have been addressed prior to balancing the hulls, as, once it finally occurs, it will necessitate re-working of several ships of various classes, both Tech 1 & Tech 2, and possibly re-balancing of entire ship classes, causing double work - but I digress), the first (and only) aspect of said portion of Eve to get any attention is a relatively small change that will directly address one of the primary complaints of the largest of the nullsec power blocs, a 'downside,' to quote Fozzie's OP, that, it seems, must be addressed immediately, while any corresponding 'upside,' again quoting Fozzie, will have to await a later release that deals with more of the Drone Mechanics than simply Omni's.
There are other, even more easily modified aspects of Drone Mechanics, that could have been addressed at any point in time, such a swapping the Damage Modifiers between the Minmatar and Amarr sub-Sentry drones, something that has repeatedly been asked for in these very forums, so as to improve Amarr drones to the point where they would be useful, and bring the drone damage/speed/EHP numbers into line. This has been requested by both the PVP and PVE communities, but has never been deemed worthy of attention. Other, similar examples are available, should you search the forums.
Instead, this is the first change.
So, yes, we have our questions. |
Leigh Akiga
Laissez-faire Economics
500
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 04:59:00 -
[139] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank. I don't know how you operate such a ship in null
You use a ship with 3 million EHP and bonuses to armor resistance like the Archon. Thats why the current sentry drone craze + the damage, tracking and range mods + assist makes it over the top powerful. |
Ordo Malus
Shadows Of The Requiem The Unthinkables
21
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 06:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Weaselior wrote:"every time I use an overpowered flavor of the month ship it gets nerfed" "this must be a conspiracy against me, not that overpowered flavor of the months always get nerfed eventually" Love how you guys are completely losing your **** over a 5% nerf (which I am on record as saying is completely stupid and unfair), but I am complaining about something that is OP. Not too much hypocrisy there. The first clue that there was a problem came in the alliance tournament with the number of Dominix doctrines. Then we have this alliance update from esteemed CSM Member Progodlegend: "Yes, that's right. GÇ£Ishtar.GÇ¥ As promised ever since the HAC rebalance changes were first announced, the hour of Ishtar Secunda is now upon us. Disregard Domis; acquire Ishtars. The sentry drone is victory; the sentry drone is life."And then look at what is being fielded in 0.0 today: Goons: Dominix EMP/TEST: Dominix PL/NC/N3: Sentry carriers, Ishtars, Proteus-(which recently had its fit tweaked to drop sentries wlolo) (Heavy Domi use last year during Fountain War) Fountain Conflict/kerfluffle: FA/Li3: Dominix Razor: Ishtars Triumvirate: ishtars Lead Farmers: Ishtars DARKNESS.: Switching to DominixSOLAR FLEET: Switching to DominixLiterally everyone in 0.0 is flying Ishtars, Dominix or sentry carriers
INK is flying Maelstroms to great success.
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Leigh Akiga
Laissez-faire Economics
500
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 07:03:00 -
[141] - Quote
Ordo Malus wrote:INK is flying Maelstroms to great success
Forgive me but I've never heard of INK. What regions have they taken or defended with Maelstroms?
And have they come across any bombing runs?
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Luwc
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
44
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 09:28:00 -
[142] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil! The rules:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.21. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.
Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited.26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued. 30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.
Thats some serious Stasi **** right there. ;D
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1134
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 09:52:00 -
[143] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
With that many mod's dedicated to damage and damage projection, you are running virtually no tank. I don't know how you operate such a ship in null, but I guarantee you that if you dropped such a thin tank into the 2nd room of WC, or Sansha Vengeance, you would be toast.
A.
You mean.. you wil ahve to dedicate the same number of module to range and damage that a normal battleship would for guns? MINUS the 6-8 gun modules themselves ?
PREPOSTEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
166
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 11:53:00 -
[144] - Quote
The real issues with these changes will be with the smaller sentry capable drone ships like the Arbitrator and Vexor. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 13:48:00 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The Omnis will keep their same fitting requirements (a bit higher than TCs), will have a 10s duration, and will enjoy significantly lower cap use (4 cap per activation) compared to Tracking Computers. They will use exactly the same scripts as Tracking Computers and Remote Tracking Computers.
This will put an extra cap drain especially on smaller drone ships.
Are you going to adjust the cap recharge rate on those ships to compensate?
Or is this an across the board drone ship nerf.
Added cap drain effects all offensive and defensive systems on a ship. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
472
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 14:08:00 -
[146] - Quote
v3locity wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: The Omnis will keep their same fitting requirements (a bit higher than TCs), will have a 10s duration, and will enjoy significantly lower cap use (4 cap per activation) compared to Tracking Computers. They will use exactly the same scripts as Tracking Computers and Remote Tracking Computers.
This will put an extra cap drain especially on smaller drone ships. Are you going to adjust the cap recharge rate on those ships to compensate? Or is this an across the board drone ship nerf. Added cap drain effects all offensive and defensive systems on a ship.
I doubt there has been many frigs/dessies using Omnis. In addition, the activation costs seem to below those for a warp scrambler, which shouldn't pose any issues for frigates even.
All in all, I believe that is way to strong of a nerfhammer in one go, the reduction in efficiency that is. Smaller steps downwards would be nice to prevent the same happening to those omnis that happened to TEs. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures: The Enyo |
Andy Landen
Sub--Zero Catastrophic Uprising
487
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 14:16:00 -
[147] - Quote
Luwc wrote:... Thats some serious Stasi **** right there. ;D
We aren't allowed to discuss moderation. Even discussing that we aren't allowed to discuss it is probably on the line as well. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Andy Landen
Sub--Zero Catastrophic Uprising
489
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 14:22:00 -
[148] - Quote
The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.
And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
24
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 14:37:00 -
[149] - Quote
So, just another goon story, bro. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
472
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 15:02:00 -
[150] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.
And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way.
That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that.
With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin... "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures: The Enyo |
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Minmatar Factional Spy
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 15:37:00 -
[151] - Quote
I am making the assumption that CCP will also be introducing a range of Drone implants in line with the Gunnery line?
Or not, cause goontears. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
781
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 17:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it.
The rules: 11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Bob Niac
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries Preatoriani
47
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 17:35:00 -
[153] - Quote
Fozzie, wouldn't you rather Omnis be falloff / optimal and the Nav computer handle tracking / speed? I <3 Logistics: Pilot of all -áT2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 18:19:00 -
[154] - Quote
great nerf the omnis
atleast when u make omnis to be the tracking comp for drones, then introduce a tracking enhancer for drones too |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
605
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 18:59:00 -
[155] - Quote
People like to compare sentry drones to turrets but they forget to mention the downsides of them
You can't align with sentry drones like you can with turret ships. So in PVP you're a sitting duck and missions you can't shoot and move between gates.
They can be attacked unlike turrets. In PVP just as in PVE you can pull them in but your DPS went down 20%.
The biggest problem is people seem to think balance means everything must be alike. By their thinking since tracking computers are active so omnis must be too. For gods sake please CCP... It's okay if something in the game is DIFFERENT... Not better... Not worse but DIFFERENT |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 19:07:00 -
[156] - Quote
IIshira wrote:People like to compare sentry drones to turrets but they forget to mention the downsides of them
You can't align with sentry drones like you can with turret ships. So in PVP you're a sitting duck and missions you can't shoot and move between gates.
They can be attacked unlike turrets. In PVP just as in PVE you can pull them in but your DPS went down 20%.
The biggest problem is people seem to think balance means everything must be alike. By their thinking since tracking computers are active so omnis must be too. For gods sake please CCP... It's okay if something in the game is DIFFERENT... Not better... Not worse but DIFFERENT
Sentry drone using ships currently dominate the top 20 list by a massive margin. That clearly indicates there are balance issues. I tend to think a lot of it has to do with drone assist mechanics which are currently broken, but I think a pretty good argument can be made that sentries are overpowered even without it. |
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 20:57:00 -
[157] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:IIshira wrote:People like to compare sentry drones to turrets but they forget to mention the downsides of them
You can't align with sentry drones like you can with turret ships. So in PVP you're a sitting duck and missions you can't shoot and move between gates.
They can be attacked unlike turrets. In PVP just as in PVE you can pull them in but your DPS went down 20%.
The biggest problem is people seem to think balance means everything must be alike. By their thinking since tracking computers are active so omnis must be too. For gods sake please CCP... It's okay if something in the game is DIFFERENT... Not better... Not worse but DIFFERENT Sentry drone using ships currently dominate the top 20 list by a massive margin. That clearly indicates there are balance issues. I tend to think a lot of it has to do with drone assist mechanics which are currently broken, but I think a pretty good argument can be made that sentries are overpowered even without it.
yeah but the way they change these just suck. Im OK with nerfing omnis but they should then also introduce passive module and best short and long range type for every damage type like i stated abit before |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 21:16:00 -
[158] - Quote
The real drone nerf story.
Goons suck at anything beyond pressing F1. Goons can't use drones, it's just to hard. Goons are getting splatted by far lesser numbers because they suck. They blame drones. Goons cry to CCP, the drones are blowing up our ships. Goons cry to CCP, nerf drones cause we're losing even though we outnumber them 2 to 1. It's just not fair. CCP, ok goons, we'll see what we can nerf so you don't look like the bunch of incompetent losers you are. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
605
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 21:39:00 -
[159] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:IIshira wrote:People like to compare sentry drones to turrets but they forget to mention the downsides of them
You can't align with sentry drones like you can with turret ships. So in PVP you're a sitting duck and missions you can't shoot and move between gates.
They can be attacked unlike turrets. In PVP just as in PVE you can pull them in but your DPS went down 20%.
The biggest problem is people seem to think balance means everything must be alike. By their thinking since tracking computers are active so omnis must be too. For gods sake please CCP... It's okay if something in the game is DIFFERENT... Not better... Not worse but DIFFERENT Sentry drone using ships currently dominate the top 20 list by a massive margin. That clearly indicates there are balance issues. I tend to think a lot of it has to do with drone assist mechanics which are currently broken, but I think a pretty good argument can be made that sentries are overpowered even without it.
That's another argument that drives me crazy. It must be OP because it's popular. Do we keep nerfing the top 20 ships till every ship in Eve sucks?
Should I be scared to fly a ship because CCP will think it's popular and nerf it?
Sentry drone ships are popular due to drone assist mechanics. Not the drones or ships. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
312
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 21:59:00 -
[160] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:The real drone nerf story.
Goons suck at anything beyond pressing F1. Goons can't use drones, it's just to hard. Goons are getting splatted by far lesser numbers because they suck. They blame drones. Goons cry to CCP, the drones are blowing up our ships. Goons cry to CCP, nerf drones cause we're losing even though we outnumber them 2 to 1. It's just not fair. CCP, ok goons, we'll see what we can nerf so you don't look like the bunch of incompetent losers you are.
It's clear you don't have a clue what doctrines both sides employ. I'll give you a hint: everyone uses sentry drones. I am convinced that CCP is trying to reignite interest in the game by irritating as many people as possible. These collective changes are designed to recreate the stunning success of Incarna and end the stagnation in Eve. Well played, CCP. Well played. |
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 22:10:00 -
[161] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:The real drone nerf story.
Goons suck at anything beyond pressing F1. Goons can't use drones, it's just to hard. Goons are getting splatted by far lesser numbers because they suck. They blame drones. Goons cry to CCP, the drones are blowing up our ships. Goons cry to CCP, nerf drones cause we're losing even though we outnumber them 2 to 1. It's just not fair. CCP, ok goons, we'll see what we can nerf so you don't look like the bunch of incompetent losers you are. It's clear you don't have a clue what doctrines both sides employ. I'll give you a hint: everyone uses sentry drones.
Well, you're in RAZOR Alliance, which is part of CFC, which are the ones crying for drone nerfs. So looks like you don't have a clue.
Why don't you elaborate. Why are you crying. Everyone has the same ships, mods, drones available to them. Yet all we see is goon tears. |
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
738
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 23:00:00 -
[162] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Yes, please make Sentries track better, it's not like we are killing Interceptors with Battleships already. This.
What the hell, CCP? Sentry tracking is way too OP. I sometimes wonder if the people over at CCP actually PvP. |
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.18 23:20:00 -
[163] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:IIshira wrote:People like to compare sentry drones to turrets but they forget to mention the downsides of them
You can't align with sentry drones like you can with turret ships. So in PVP you're a sitting duck and missions you can't shoot and move between gates.
They can be attacked unlike turrets. In PVP just as in PVE you can pull them in but your DPS went down 20%.
The biggest problem is people seem to think balance means everything must be alike. By their thinking since tracking computers are active so omnis must be too. For gods sake please CCP... It's okay if something in the game is DIFFERENT... Not better... Not worse but DIFFERENT Sentry drone using ships currently dominate the top 20 list by a massive margin. That clearly indicates there are balance issues. I tend to think a lot of it has to do with drone assist mechanics which are currently broken, but I think a pretty good argument can be made that sentries are overpowered even without it.
when was the last time when sentrys where rebalanced? do you know that? ofc you have no ideea, you know only to jump in with the rest of crybabys and cry "omg sentrys are op!!! ccp save us pls"
sentrys are in this iteration since some(allot) years ago, yet noone cryed about them being op; only after dominix/ ishtar rebalance they started to be used in large numbers. the new bonuses and drone assist mechanic made them very good at killing stuff, but to nerf them cose 2 ships can use them very well is pants on head ******** logic, sry |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
605
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 00:15:00 -
[164] - Quote
Nyancat Audeles wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Yes, please make Sentries track better, it's not like we are killing Interceptors with Battleships already. This. What the hell, CCP? Sentry tracking is way too OP. I sometimes wonder if the people over at CCP actually PvP.
I'm sure some at CCP play Eve on a regular basis but I bet most are too busy to do so. The good idea fairy whispers something in their ear and we have a new patch! |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 06:33:00 -
[165] - Quote
IIshira wrote:I am disposable wrote:IIshira wrote:People like to compare sentry drones to turrets but they forget to mention the downsides of them
You can't align with sentry drones like you can with turret ships. So in PVP you're a sitting duck and missions you can't shoot and move between gates.
They can be attacked unlike turrets. In PVP just as in PVE you can pull them in but your DPS went down 20%.
The biggest problem is people seem to think balance means everything must be alike. By their thinking since tracking computers are active so omnis must be too. For gods sake please CCP... It's okay if something in the game is DIFFERENT... Not better... Not worse but DIFFERENT Sentry drone using ships currently dominate the top 20 list by a massive margin. That clearly indicates there are balance issues. I tend to think a lot of it has to do with drone assist mechanics which are currently broken, but I think a pretty good argument can be made that sentries are overpowered even without it. That's another argument that drives me crazy. It must be OP because it's popular. Do we keep nerfing the top 20 ships till every ship in Eve sucks? Should I be scared to fly a ship because CCP will think it's popular and nerf it? Sentry drone ships are popular due to drone assist mechanics. Not the drones or ships.
+1
In the end this is a numbers game and even a particular ship/weapon is a few percent more effective in a particualr situation it will become dominant.
If you end up with a situation that everytime something is 5% better at some specific in game scenario you nerf it 20% because it became popular and the people were not willing or able to train for it complained about it being OP you will finish up with a game where: - either what is worth flying cycles every patch, - OR alternatively a game where there are no real choices as everything is acuallly identical to everything else.
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 06:35:00 -
[166] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Andy Landen wrote:The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.
And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way. That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that. With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin...
Well if the current stated intentions of making sentries identical to turrets in DPS/tracking/effectiveness are implemented then no not at all ... sentries will then be the same as turrets.
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Goldensaver
Lom Corporation WHY so DERP'D
361
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 09:23:00 -
[167] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance. Ah. back to that canard. One of your other zealots, Jenn whatever, has posted that 11% of the player base is in Sov alliances. Hate to to break it to you, but once again we see a far larger group (PVE focused players), getting screwed to deal with a problem that ONLY occurs in large blob-sec fleet fights. You get it wrong again. There are bout 90,000 characters in SOV holding alliances according to CCP the last time they put out the numbers. The 11% are characters IN null sec during the snap shoot, not all of which are sov alliance members (some are even npc corp alts used for scouting, afk cloaking, whatever). A lot of those 90k SOV alliance characters are in high sec for various reasons, Like me for instance being in Lanngisi with 2 of therm running missions. Even many non sov alliance characters are alts of people in sov alliance. This myth about the high majority is easily debunkable for anyone with any moral sense who is interested in the truth. No on would accuse you of that.
And in addition to what you said, we can't forget all other aspects of the game.
We have W-Space people. We have low-seccers. We have highsec wardeccers. We have highsec miners. We have market alts. We have suicide ganking alts. We have non-sentry using mission runners. We have incursion runners.
I would have to estimate all said and done that approximately half of the population directly PvPs (even if not constantly, then preiodically and so it follows they would be concerned at least somewhat with PvP game balance), with the remaining half PvPing indirectly. The thing these people don't realize is that even their missions are PvP because it produces goods and ISK that goes into the market and causes inflation and manipulates prices for the rest of us. They're not blowing up our ships, but they are participating in affecting the overall market (which is very much player driven). |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1209
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 11:24:00 -
[168] - Quote
Remove drone assist from the game. The Tears Must Flow |
FaulEnza N00bist
The Squad Yulai Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 12:04:00 -
[169] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Remove drone assist from the game.
Not more, not less. |
Arcos Vandymion
The Advent of Faith Standing United.
25
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 14:52:00 -
[170] - Quote
I'd preferr that someone finally makes Amarr Light/Medium/Heavy more powerful - the worst drones for the place two drone users in the galaxy - oh yeah and some V3 graphics. I don't think drones have been changed so far now have they.
Bets are on Domis will dominate the next AT too with those changes unless someone comes up with some fancy Vargur fits so we can have some more bets involving beards.
Andy Landen wrote:Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way. Them's called turrets and no you won't get turrets that profit from your Drone SP. Your missiles aren't profiting from your Gunenry SP either or vice versa. |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
613
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 15:26:00 -
[171] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
If you end up with a situation that everytime something is 5% better at some specific in game scenario you nerf it 20% because it became popular and the people were not willing or able to train for it complained about it being OP you will finish up with a game where: - either what is worth flying cycles every patch, - OR alternatively a game where there are no real choices as everything is acuallly identical to everything else.
The second one seems to be the direction CCP is heading in. I really do understand that things have to be constantly "tweaked" but this doesn't mean nerf things with a sledgehammer or try to make things identical like they're doing with this. There is no reason just because tracking computers work one way that omnidirectional tracking links have to too.
In the past few years CCP has gone the direction of simplifying things way too much. The thing that got me into Eve was how complex and interesting it looked. I hate to say it but much of the actual gameplay is boring. It's all the complexities that makes Eve interesting to at least me and I'm sure others. CCP go ahead and make the game less interesting and complex and see how this works out... |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 15:52:00 -
[172] - Quote
FaulEnza N00bist wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Remove drone assist from the game. Not more, not less.
So when does the nerf titans crying start?
I see N3/PL brought titans to the fight and you had none.
So start crying about that.
It's not the rest of the players fault on the server that you are scared to bring out ships.
You just feel because you outnumber them 2 to 1 that you should win no matter what.
Let's see more tears. Goon tears, best tears. |
stoicfaux
3846
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 22:33:00 -
[173] - Quote
Spreadsheet for computing new sentry ranges with Omni II: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdERkd3lSMHdmaUljaU5Ha2hVXzR3dlE&usp=sharing
It's set for an Ishtar. Just make a copy and update columns B, C, and D on rows 6, 13, 20, and 27 with your values from EFT, pyfa, etc..
Long story short, with three Omni IIs, my Ishtar's Gardes go from 72km+12k to 58km+23km. The other sentries stay at 100km+ optimal. *sniffle*
/assuming_I_didn't_make_a_mistake_somewhere WASABI: -áWarp Speed Module
|
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2014.01.19 23:46:00 -
[174] - Quote
I was thinking of fitting an Ishtar so this is very helpful! |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 00:12:00 -
[175] - Quote
Nice spreadsheet
Ironically the changes make using 4 or more omnis more viable than previously as you can avoid stacking penalties by doing stuff like Garde with 3 range scripted and one tracking scripted omni.
What would make these changes a bit more manageable is the ability to group the omni so you only need one click, not 3 or 4, to change scripts for the full set/rack. |
sabastyian
Death By Design
19
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 02:52:00 -
[176] - Quote
Not terribly important since not many people do them ( apparently ) but this change will kill drone ships in lvl 5 missions. Those neuts make anything short of a carriers tank suicide ( unless asb bastion'd marauder ). The lvl 5 neuts can hold a capital at 0 cap, no problem so with their loss of omni links for their sentries, their damage goes down increasing the risk for no increase reward ( to people saying their isnt much, you're in a capital scrammed in a site and you can easily be probed down, there is a risk ) Just a small thought. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2039
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 14:08:00 -
[177] - Quote
sabastyian wrote:Not terribly important since not many people do them ( apparently ) but this change will kill drone ships in lvl 5 missions. Those neuts make anything short of a carriers tank suicide ( unless asb bastion'd marauder ). The lvl 5 neuts can hold a capital at 0 cap, no problem so with their loss of omni links for their sentries, their damage goes down increasing the risk for no increase reward ( to people saying their isnt much, you're in a capital scrammed in a site and you can easily be probed down, there is a risk ) Just a small thought.
This change will kill more than a few drone ships, in more than a few situations. I don't think people realize how much of an impact it will have on optimal range, especially when they start stacking them. (though that spreadsheet is going to open a few eyes).
I am thinking of dumping my Fed Navy Omni's which are looking at a quadruple nerf, based on the deafening silence to my question about whether the Fed Navy Omni's get 18/36 stats, or the Fed Navy TC stats of 16/32, or maybe even just stuck with the T2 stats of 15/30.
Taking a module from 30% optimal to 16% optimal, 32% falloff, with cap issues, plus a loss of simultaneous tracking performance (which btw, now involve a 10 second change timer) is a massive, massive nerf.
Only someone who absolutely hates PvE would dream up such punitive changes. And such a person should never, ever, be placed in a position where they can do so much damage to so many, particularly when they clearly enjoy doing so. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
274
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 15:13:00 -
[178] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:FaulEnza N00bist wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Remove drone assist from the game. Not more, not less. So when does the nerf titans crying start? I see N3/PL brought titans to the fight and you had none. So start crying about that. It's not the rest of the players fault on the server that you are scared to bring out ships. You just feel because you outnumber them 2 to 1 that you should win no matter what. Let's see more tears. Goon tears, best tears.
Go check the Capital Turret Tracking Nerf (tm) thread. Titan and Dreadnaught turret tracking, and, thus, DPS, are getting a 5% hit, unless you're flying something similar to a CFC Naglfar, and overheating. |
Dragonzchilde
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
44
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 17:00:00 -
[179] - Quote
or how a simple "unnerf" of the AoE DD would solve so many problems
but then CCp decided that need to be nerfed too
instead of scripting a lot of useless things, script the DD so you can choose between focused or AoE. all of the sudden, drone isuues solved.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1975
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 17:18:00 -
[180] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:You should consider dropping the tracking bonus from the Dominix and then bringing the optimal bonus back up to 10% per level. This might be the ultimate solution. Either tracking OR range bonus. Not both.
|
|
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
606
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 18:38:00 -
[181] - Quote
Cap use? Really?
Well if you're brining them in line - will you drop the CPU accordingly...?
Edit:
That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
103
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 19:12:00 -
[182] - Quote
I don't comment much in these threads but as a frequent user of drones for wormhole PVE I feel the need to speak up. The changes to the Omni's are clearly addressing OP issues brought about by the ship bonuses of the Domi and Ishtar. With the inherent and previously stated shortcomings of sentry drones, these changes will make anything but an Ishtar or Domi essentially useless for PVE and in most applications, PVP as well. CCP, please address the issues currently present in those 2 hulls rather than kill all the other drone boats. I speak specifically to the Rattlesnake which won't be worth flying if these changes go live as-is and the Rattler isn't rebalanced with Domi/Ishtar hull bonuses. This change in Omni's appears to be a very broad and crude way to handle the issue of assisted sentry drone fleets. I sincerely hope that we are allowed real input to the final change once this goes live on Sisi and some actual testing can prove how bad this is. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
172
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 22:34:00 -
[183] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:I don't comment much in these threads but as a frequent user of drones for wormhole PVE I feel the need to speak up. The changes to the Omni's are clearly addressing OP issues brought about by the ship bonuses of the Domi and Ishtar. With the inherent and previously stated shortcomings of sentry drones, these changes will make anything but an Ishtar or Domi essentially useless for PVE and in most applications, PVP as well. CCP, please address the issues currently present in those 2 hulls rather than kill all the other drone boats. I speak specifically to the Rattlesnake which won't be worth flying if these changes go live as-is and the Rattler isn't rebalanced with Domi/Ishtar hull bonuses. This change in Omni's appears to be a very broad and crude way to handle the issue of assisted sentry drone fleets. I sincerely hope that we are allowed real input to the final change once this goes live on Sisi and some actual testing can prove how bad this is.
Well a few people have said the Domi in its current form is closer to a faction or pirate BS than a T1. TBH it would have made more sense if the bonuses of the Navy and the T1 Domi were reversed. As far as the rattler goes very few people train up for them anymore and the ones you now see are generally people that already flew them. Hence the massive price drop in Rattler hulls the last 12 months.
|
Moor Deybe
Delusional Aspirations Of Grandure
13
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 01:53:00 -
[184] - Quote
I'd say the days of the long range Dominix sniper boat using Gardes is over, which is a shame because to get that range and DPS you had to fill the highs with Drone Link Augmentors, the mids with Omnidirectional Tracking Links, and the lows with Drone Damage Amplifiers, all at the expense of tank and mobility..........you also have to train up some very time intensive drone skills!
This fitting was a choice, but a fun choice that came with serious drawbacks i.e. thin tank and standing still next to the sentries taking incoming DPS.............which seems sort of balanced to me?
Anyway, the long range, low tank choice won't be available now, which makes the PVE use of the Dominix more restricted and less fun
Ok so there's better tracking to hit frigates up close, but hey, thats what Hobgoblins are for, and as for extra falloff, who cares about that? It takes 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers to get the DPS to take down battleships at a decent rate anyway! so hitting targets into falloff at drastically reduced DPS has limited appeal in PVE.
Overheating Omnidirectional Tracking Links?...well nice to have the option, but people don't tend to do that in PVE missions and anomalies, strictly PVP only when its win at all costs, including damaging your modules to the point of destruction.
The Dominix and Ishtar will be less capable in PVE now, and I'd say the other drone boats are pretty much screwed losing that range.
It seems peculiar that these ships were deemed balanced when they were given these bonuses / stats and now they're considered not balanced? what, because more people are using them?
Perhaps CCP should just publish stats of current ship usage so people can train for a less popular one, knowing that it won't get nerfed in the next release. LOL
I feel sorry for newer players who don't have skill points spread across different ships and weapon systems, when the ship / weapons that they've just put several months worth of skill points into becomes less effective and they find themselves back where they were three months ago capability wise.
I look forward to testing this on Singularity when its released. and I'll post what I find if it differs from my current assumptions.
TL DR;
Dominix / Ishtar nerfed for PVE due to being popular in PVP Overheating for PVP and a bit more falloff offered as a crumb of comfort. Drone boat usage reduces, ship usage stats become more evenly spread suggesting balance Game is less fun as all ships are the same. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 02:09:00 -
[185] - Quote
Meyr wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:FaulEnza N00bist wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Remove drone assist from the game. Not more, not less. So when does the nerf titans crying start? I see N3/PL brought titans to the fight and you had none. So start crying about that. It's not the rest of the players fault on the server that you are scared to bring out ships. You just feel because you outnumber them 2 to 1 that you should win no matter what. Let's see more tears. Goon tears, best tears. Go check the Capital Turret Tracking Nerf (tm) thread. Titan and Dreadnaught turret tracking, and, thus, DPS, are getting a 5% hit, unless you're flying something similar to a CFC Naglfar, and overheating.
Yep, it's clear this is the game of goon.
No point in any of us playing this scam. Anytime something doesn't go their way CCP changes it.
I'm done. |
Andy Landen
Sub--Zero Catastrophic Uprising
496
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 02:11:00 -
[186] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Andy Landen wrote:The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.
And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way. That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that. With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin... Well if the current stated intentions of making sentries identical to turrets in DPS/tracking/effectiveness are implemented then no not at all ... sentries will then be the same as turrets. Agreed. Sentries can be killed. No other weapon system matches that. Sentries cannot return to a ship more than 2500m away. All other weapon systems travel with the ship and are protected by the ship. With these changes, it is seeming like we need to have all other systems drop their weapons in space before being able to use them and allowing those weapons to be targeted. Captain: Target the weapons systems. Gunner: Ready to fire, captain.
As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 02:55:00 -
[187] - Quote
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 35k to get the about the same, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 03:10:00 -
[188] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:
As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's.
TE's are not an option. Drones are working good the way they are. They are not turrets and have many disadvantages over turrets. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2128
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 03:38:00 -
[189] - Quote
v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
971
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:36:00 -
[190] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? |
|
stoicfaux
3862
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:41:00 -
[191] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.
I've uploaded a new spreadsheet with unbonused sentries and added pre-nerf Omnis for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing
It's not the end of the world for unbonused sentries.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2128
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:48:00 -
[192] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
971
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:57:00 -
[193] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use. I'm willing to own up to some bias here, but were not talking about just being destructible, but also being locked in position, thus meaning that if the cruiser hull uses it's mobility it can't take it's DPS with it, which every other cruiser can do. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
175
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 05:01:00 -
[194] - Quote
As expected, Bouncers with their already good falloff, come off best in the scripted version. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 06:22:00 -
[195] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.
Yea, and it will just happen to cruisers. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 06:27:00 -
[196] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.
Where do you get 34 + 15 from. I couldn't hit crap at anything over 30.
Maybe you should actually test it on the test server. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 06:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:As expected, Bouncers with their already good falloff, come off best in the scripted version.
What are you actually getting, in a ship, on the test server.
They changed 1.25 multipliers to %20. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
612
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 08:21:00 -
[198] - Quote
It's a pretty significant hit. My current rattler, for example, comparing todays optimal ranges and DPS will be doing about 80% of that DPS at FAR worse tracking at the same range. (Uses 2 omnis)
Furthermore, it is a pretty significant hit....for no clear reason. It's not like these hulls are agile and can dictate range in a meaningful way.
I shall have to ponder if they are worth the hassle at this point, having other options open. Which is a shame, because I found them fun
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.
Trouble is how that stacks up to battleship weapons? Because drone BS can't get any more damage out than those cruisers with their primary systems either. Cruisers able to field the same drone quota as a BS shouldn't be a case for an across the board nerfing. |
Minnie Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 12:33:00 -
[199] - Quote
On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.
Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.
Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused. |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 12:52:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
Coming back to this I'd like to ask how are you ever going to find a balance when there's a ship class in the game that doesn't care about either of those two "downsides"? Or is the design goal here such that they get the upsides for free? Sure either of those things might be considered downsides for a ship that can only carry 15 drones and does actually move around. But for a capital pilot does not give a single **** about moving or having his drones destroyed because he can vomit out 3000 more without resupplying if he wants. |
|
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 13:11:00 -
[201] - Quote
Diivil wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
Coming back to this I'd like to ask how are you ever going to find a balance when there's a ship class in the game that doesn't care about either of those two "downsides"? Or is the design goal here such that they get the upsides for free? Sure either of those things might be considered downsides for a ship that can only carry 15 drones and does actually move around. But for a capital pilot does not give a single **** about moving or having his drones destroyed because he can vomit out 3000 more without resupplying if he wants.
You have the same ships / drones available to you.
Quit being a coward cry baby and use them. |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 13:22:00 -
[202] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
You have the same ships / drones available to you.
Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.
What does me not using a carrier have to do with differences in weapon system balance between different ship classes? Or is it your opinion that carriers should only be fought with carriers? You have an odd view of balance if that's the case. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 14:39:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range. Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.
So your solution to this is:
copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1 copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2
Edit activation cost
done
So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff.
Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff.
Scripted:
Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff
Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff
Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range
Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%.
You haven't even come close to the line you're feeding us above.
Are you the only one working on this? |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 14:44:00 -
[204] - Quote
Diivil wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:
You have the same ships / drones available to you.
Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.
What does me not using a carrier have to do with differences in weapon system balance between different ship classes? Or is it your opinion that carriers should only be fought with carriers? You have an odd view of balance if that's the case.
N3/PL risks huge assets and you want to take them out with a big pile of junk ships. So you cry because you can't.
Risk vs reward. You are to scared to bring on the ships needed and then cry about it. Simple as that. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
105
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 14:56:00 -
[205] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote: Well a few people have said the Domi in its current form is closer to a faction or pirate BS than a T1. TBH it would have made more sense if the bonuses of the Navy and the T1 Domi were reversed. As far as the rattler goes very few people train up for them anymore and the ones you now see are generally people that already flew them. Hence the massive price drop in Rattler hulls the last 12 months.
I concur with the Domi/DNI comment. Regarding Rattlers though, so what? The Rattlesnake requires one hell of a train to fly well and I don't much appreciate CCP's kick in the teeth on drones when what they need to fix are 2 hulls that they theoretically just "fixed" and created these issues. As far as PVE, most of the supposed issues are from people crying about not being able to AFK mission with sentries due to the AI changes, and I don't much care what they whine about as it really doesn't matter. But having significant SP in drones, and the associated Rattler skills, it is total BS to now have a ship and weapons system that is non-viable for all the wrong reasons. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Priestess Lin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 16:17:00 -
[206] - Quote
Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1337
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 18:23:00 -
[207] - Quote
I feel a bit cheated that a omni scripted for range will still have worse range than before, in addition to providing 0 tracking. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
623
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 18:48:00 -
[208] - Quote
From what I'm reading it's a pretty bad nerf across the board. I'm not too sad because with the new drone aggro system they're already a PITA for PVE and the only PVP ships I have that use them is the Prophecy and Armageddon. I'll just fly something else if all what people are saying is true.
Part of me is sad because one of my pilots was a "Drone specialist" but what can you do... I'll write him a new bio |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 18:57:00 -
[209] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range. Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.
So your solution to this is: copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1 copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2 Edit activation cost done So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff. Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff. Scripted: Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%. You haven't even come close to the line you're feeding us above. Are you the only one working on this?
This is a 100% classic Fozzie heavyhanded nerf with the illusion of a possible buff to the drones themselves ("However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves") which of course does not happen at the same time as the nerf to their bonus mods. This buff will of course never come, or will come 2 years down the line.
It also ignores the fact that gun tracking can be modified by both tracking computers and tracking enhancers (mid and low slots) whereas drone tracking has only a midslot module to modify tracking and range.
I loled at you noticing the copy + paste aspect of this change. The last 2-3 expansions have been 90% copy and paste of existing crap or variable changes in the database. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
614
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 19:22:00 -
[210] - Quote
And another thing, the 'competing modules' are attached to ships which can move and fire, which can manage the tracking through piloting. Sentry boats do not have that option - they can't minimize angular,transversal velocities. |
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
84
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 -
[211] - Quote
Priestess Lin wrote:Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs.
Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math.
Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf?
What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2058
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:07:00 -
[212] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:Priestess Lin wrote:Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs. Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math. Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf? What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything.
fozzie came from PL, and absolutely hates PvE. When do you think the last time he even had to do any PvE to support an account even when we was in PL?
He looks at this game strictly through the lens of a player who belonged to the hierarchy of a group that disdained anyone who had to work for their ISK, and that disdain for the average player continues today. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1339
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:16:00 -
[213] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote: Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math.
Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf?
What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything.
fozzie came from PL, and absolutely hates PvE. When do you think the last time he even had to do any PvE to support an account even when we was in PL? He looks at this game strictly through the lens of a player who belonged to the hierarchy of a group that disdained anyone who had to work for their ISK, and that disdain for the average player continues today.
This is the opposite of a constructive post. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2058
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:23:00 -
[214] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote: Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math.
Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf?
What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything.
fozzie came from PL, and absolutely hates PvE. When do you think the last time he even had to do any PvE to support an account even when we was in PL? He looks at this game strictly through the lens of a player who belonged to the hierarchy of a group that disdained anyone who had to work for their ISK, and that disdain for the average player continues today. This is the opposite of a constructive post.
But is the truth. There is some massive thread in GD about getting CCP to nerf high sec. Clearly, fozzie is acting on that, again. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
973
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:31:00 -
[215] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Batelle wrote:This is the opposite of a constructive post. But is the truth. There is some massive thread in GD about getting CCP to nerf high sec. Clearly, fozzie is acting on that, again. Save the fact that sentry usage is not limited to highsec. The popularity of the Ishtar in particular for non-highsec usage disproves any focus on highsec intent you may have theorized. So far as the thread, I'm quite familiar with it and it has no bearing upon this. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
84
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:48:00 -
[216] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:Priestess Lin wrote:Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs. Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math. Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf? What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything. fozzie came from PL, and absolutely hates PvE. When do you think the last time he even had to do any PvE to support an account even when we was in PL? He looks at this game strictly through the lens of a player who belonged to the hierarchy of a group that disdained anyone who had to work for their ISK, and that disdain for the average player continues today.
Always good practice to hate your customers. Looks especially good on the balance sheet. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2063
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:48:00 -
[217] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Batelle wrote:This is the opposite of a constructive post. But is the truth. There is some massive thread in GD about getting CCP to nerf high sec. Clearly, fozzie is acting on that, again. Save the fact that sentry usage is not limited to highsec. The popularity of the Ishtar in particular for non-highsec usage disproves any focus on highsec intent you may have theorized. So far as the thread, I'm quite familiar with it and it has no bearing upon this.
Yes, and the Ishtar still has an exceptional range with Garde II's, because of the inherent ship bonuses. I have no doubt that the goon pilots in their home turf that were shooting at 70 km optimal with Garde II's are not happy either.
But imagine how thrilled the Proteus, Navy Vexor, Eos, Geddon, Prophecy, Stratios, Gila, and Rattlesnake pilots must feel now that the only module that gave them range bonuses has been essentially cut in half? My Fed Navy Omni gave me 30% range bonus, now I am staring at 16%. I flew with 2 on my ship.
I now have no way to target ships at 50 km with any kind of decent effective DPS. I am so far into falloff it is beyond ridiculous, while before I was at optimal at 49 km. And of course, I lose all tracking bonuses while trying to eke out any range at all.
This change is stupid beyond any words. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2063
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:50:00 -
[218] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:Priestess Lin wrote:Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs. Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math. Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf? What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything. fozzie came from PL, and absolutely hates PvE. When do you think the last time he even had to do any PvE to support an account even when we was in PL? He looks at this game strictly through the lens of a player who belonged to the hierarchy of a group that disdained anyone who had to work for their ISK, and that disdain for the average player continues today. Always good practice to hate your customers. Looks especially good on the balance sheet.
Yeah, no wonder the question of the week last week in the blogs was why CCP participation rates have plateaued. One only has to look at changes like this to see why.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
84
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 21:56:00 -
[219] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:Priestess Lin wrote:Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs. Personally I wonder how he got this job in the first place. He can't possibly know how to do math. Interceptor stat change, increase agility which increases align time, umm, wtf? What he says about omni tracking and range and what is actually going to happen with the changes showing on the test server must be due to a severe lack of math skills. Or he thinks we're all as stupid as goon. Oh, wait, goon, that would explain everything. fozzie came from PL, and absolutely hates PvE. When do you think the last time he even had to do any PvE to support an account even when we was in PL? He looks at this game strictly through the lens of a player who belonged to the hierarchy of a group that disdained anyone who had to work for their ISK, and that disdain for the average player continues today. Always good practice to hate your customers. Looks especially good on the balance sheet. Yeah, no wonder the question of the week last week in the blogs was why CCP participation rates have plateaued. One only has to look at changes like this to see why.
Yep, they fuk me, i'll fuk them. Simple as that. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
791
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 23:15:00 -
[220] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Tika Hemah
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 00:04:00 -
[221] - Quote
Minnie Ryder wrote:On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.
Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.
Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused.
Just went on sisi to test but can't get actually in game numbers.
1) Show info in station is not helpful because can't activate omni.
2) undock but show info still don't show effects of activated omni whether drones are in drone bay or out in space (in fact, out in space drone show no bonus from the hull neither).
Please fix this so we can get acutal in game numbers and effects of additional rigs like drone scope chip.
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
84
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 01:37:00 -
[222] - Quote
Tika Hemah wrote:Minnie Ryder wrote:On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.
Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.
Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused. Just went on sisi to test but can't get actually in game numbers. 1) Show info in station is not helpful because can't activate omni. 2) undock but show info still don't show effects of activated omni whether drones are in drone bay or out in space (in fact, out in space drone show no bonus from the hull neither). Please fix this so we can get acutal in game numbers and effects of additional rigs like drone scope chip.
You assume the numbers the game shows will be what you actually get?
With the display of math skills so far I wouldn't count on it. You need to find something to shoot at and see what you effectively get at different ranges. |
Moor Deybe
Delusional Aspirations Of Grandure
18
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 02:03:00 -
[223] - Quote
Firstly, many thanks to stoicfaux (see post #162) for his spreadsheet for some accurate figures. That gave me some ranges to perform tests at, because the in game GUI gives no help whatsoever in determining optimal etc.
I've just spent 3 hours on SISI in a Dominix with the new scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Links, doing Drone Hordes and other Drone Anomalies. I did these same anomalies recently with the curent Omnidirectional Tracking Links when testing out the new ESS module.
Well as expected, the Dominix is now a very different ship indeed!
Whereas before, the Dominix did these sites without too much trouble as long as you picked your targets correctly, the Drone Horde was a bit too much now for the new Dominix, because with the large range reduction on the Gardes, it got overwhelmed somewhat by the advancing Drone Battleships and their incoming DPS.
Using the EM curators against the drones (as that is their weakness), I was able to complete the sites, because the Curators have decent range still, but they're only 650 DPS (and that's with 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers) which in comparison to the 800 DPS Thermal Gardes, is a big drop.
Lets just say it was a more tedious affair and not much fun.
It was interesting to see the Curators track better, but to be honest I usually blap frigates well before they're close enough to warp scramble, so that was of marginal use, and with the Dominix being mainly immobile (unless you want to leave your sentries behind), in PVE, the NPC rats tend to be coming straight at you so the loss in optimal range is a big hit compared to a slight gain in tracking which make little difference when the rats traversal is pretty low anyway.
I tried a few different fittings and tactics but there's no getting away from the difference a massive range reduction like that makes
I'd say if your PVP/PVE use of the Dominix was using mainly Garde's for the Thermal damage then start looking for another ship as the reduction in range on the highest DPS drones was very limiting, however, if you find yourself using Bouncers, Curators or Wardens then you might well not be too dismayed at the changes.
I'm off to look for a BP original for Rattlesnake, Dominix and Ishtar dust covers, I feel there's an opportunity to make some ISK. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2068
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 14:22:00 -
[224] - Quote
Moor Deybe wrote:Firstly, many thanks to stoicfaux (see post #162) for his spreadsheet for some accurate figures. That gave me some ranges to perform tests at, because the in game GUI gives no help whatsoever in determining optimal etc. I've just spent 3 hours on SISI in a Dominix with the new scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Links, doing Drone Hordes and other Drone Anomalies. I did these same anomalies recently with the curent Omnidirectional Tracking Links when testing out the new ESS module. Well as expected, the Dominix is now a very different ship indeed! Whereas before, the Dominix did these sites without too much trouble as long as you picked your targets correctly, the Drone Horde was a bit too much now for the new Dominix, because with the large range reduction on the Gardes, it got overwhelmed somewhat by the advancing Drone Battleships and their incoming DPS. Using the EM curators against the drones (as that is their weakness), I was able to complete the sites, because the Curators have decent range still, but they're only 650 DPS (and that's with 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers) which in comparison to the 800 DPS Thermal Gardes, is a big drop. Lets just say it was a more tedious affair and not much fun. It was interesting to see the Curators track better, but to be honest I usually blap frigates well before they're close enough to warp scramble, so that was of marginal use, and with the Dominix being mainly immobile (unless you want to leave your sentries behind), in PVE, the NPC rats tend to be coming straight at you so the loss in optimal range is a big hit compared to a slight gain in tracking which make little difference when the rats traversal is pretty low anyway. I tried a few different fittings and tactics but there's no getting away from the difference a massive range reduction like that makes I'd say if your PVP/PVE use of the Dominix was using mainly Garde's for the Thermal damage then start looking for another ship as the reduction in range on the highest DPS drones was very limiting, however, if you find yourself using Bouncers, Curators or Wardens then you might well not be too dismayed at the changes. I'm off to look for a BP original for Rattlesnake, Dominix and Ishtar dust covers, I feel there's an opportunity to make some ISK.
So the ship is ruined, losing about 20% effective DPS. And that was with a ship that has an inherent range bonus to start with, where the range nerf is mitigated. Imagine how much worse it will be for ships that have no inherent 37.5% range bonus to start with. They will be completely finished, like the Gila, Rattlesnake, Proteus, Geddon, Prophecy, Myrmidon, etc
Chalk up another "balanced by fozzie" game mechanic, all because a bunch of PvP'ers whined.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Moor Deybe
Delusional Aspirations Of Grandure
18
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 16:24:00 -
[225] - Quote
yeah pretty much runied IMHO.
I didn't want it to be so as this character has millions of skill point in drones, but even with all the relevant Drone skills at V and Gallente Battleship at V, I felt like I was in a BattleCruiser trying to do a level 4 Security Mission.
With no ability to speed tank (sentries) I was actually in structure at one point fighting in the new Garde optimal range, and that was with 3 Omnidirectional Tracking Links scripted for range, whereas the "old" Dominix was capable and fun.
I hope people have more luck with their favourite drone ships |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
181
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 16:28:00 -
[226] - Quote
Moor Deybe wrote:yeah pretty much runied IMHO. I didn't want it to be so as this character has millions of skill point in drones, but even with all the relevant Drone skills at V and Gallente Battleship at V, I felt like I was in a BattleCruiser trying to do a level 4 Security Mission. With no ability to speed tank (sentries) I was actually in structure at one point fighting in the new Garde optimal range, and that was with 3 Omnidirectional Tracking Links scripted for range, whereas the "old" Dominix was capable and fun. I hope people have more luck with their favourite drone ships
Fozzie needs to quit being lazy and just finish all of his gameraping nerfs on all remaining ships/modules in the next release. How long does it really take to copy the stats of some existing ship/module and paste it to another. I'm really getting sick of training skills to level 5 only to have the train rendered useless by him nerfing something 3 months later. |
stoicfaux
3873
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 19:19:00 -
[227] - Quote
Moor Deybe wrote:I've just spent 3 hours on SISI in a Dominix with the new scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Links, doing Drone Hordes and other Drone Anomalies. I did these same anomalies recently with the curent Omnidirectional Tracking Links when testing out the new ESS module.
Well as expected, the Dominix is now a very different ship indeed!
Whereas before, the Dominix did these sites without too much trouble as long as you picked your targets correctly, the Drone Horde was a bit too much now for the new Dominix, because with the large range reduction on the Gardes, it got overwhelmed somewhat by the advancing Drone Battleships and their incoming DPS.
Using the EM curators against the drones (as that is their weakness), I was able to complete the sites, because the Curators have decent range still, but they're only 650 DPS (and that's with 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers) which in comparison to the 800 DPS Thermal Gardes, is a big drop.
I am somewhat dubious about that Dominix claim. I know you actually tested it on SiSi, but something seems wrong.
Curators have only 81.25% the DPS of Gardes: * bouncer 87.5% * curator 81.25% * warden 75.0%
However, the Alvus Queen has EHP of X versus damage type: * EM 27,231 * Expl 53,455 * Kin 39,250 * Therm 31,810
Divide the EHP by 800 DPS for Gardes, 700 for Bouncers, 650 for Curators, and 600 for Wardens to get the rough Time to Kill (TTK): * EM 27,231 / 650 = ~42s * Expl 53,455 / 700 = ~76s * Kin 39,250 / 600 = ~65s * Therm 31,810 / 800 = ~40s This does NOT take any shield/armor regeneration into account.
42 seconds for EM versus 40 seconds for Thermal is a volley difference (plus shield/armor regen.) In theory, you should have been able to use Curators at long range and Gardes at short/medium range with a minimal loss in TTK (up to ~10% longer-ish.)
If anything, Garde DPS is probably a bit too high for PvE given how many NPCs have thermal as a secondary weakness. Meaning, with the high DPS of Gardes, it normally better to use Gardes on "thermal as a secondary weakness" NPCs instead using a Warden or Curator against the NPC's primary weakness.
For example, for the kinetic weak Guristas Pith Eliminator, the TTKs are: Curator: 47,058 / 650 = ~72s Bouncer: 35,306 / 700 = ~50s Warden: 24,393 / 600 = ~41s Garde: 28,664 / 800 = ~36s
Gardes (36s) are noticeably better than Wardens (41s).
I can understand why Gardes are getting the biggest nerf (i.e. range nerfed,) but it looks like swapping between Warden/Curators at long range and Gardes at long range shouldn't translate into a huge nerf.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
618
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 19:37:00 -
[228] - Quote
Don't Pith BS favour long orbits though? Likely outside many un-hull-bonused gardes effective range.
I just can't reconcile the gutting of drone hulls that aren't sentry range bonused. Can you imagine trying to effectively use any other drone with a rattler? Even a DNI?
I have some stuff to sell, it would seem.
Edit: it's actually VERY reminiscent of the HML nerf where the real issue (at the time) were a couple of hulls. But I can't honestly see them rebalancing all other drone hulls after this. |
Novah Soul
76
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 19:55:00 -
[229] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: I have some stuff to sell, it would seem.
Same here, already taken care of =/ |
stoicfaux
3873
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 20:10:00 -
[230] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Don't Pith BS favour long orbits though? Likely outside many un-hull-bonused gardes effective range. Yes, but they're well within the 75km optimal of Wardens. (Which actually becomes 60km due to drone control range issues.) (Pith BS don't orbit any further out than 54km last I checked.)
Quote:I just can't reconcile the gutting of drone hulls that aren't sentry range bonused. Can you imagine trying to effectively use any other drone with a rattler? Even a DNI?
The hulls aren't being gutted. Gardes are being gutted. Unbonused sentries base ranges: Garde: 30km + 12km Bouncer: 60km + 42km Warden: 75km + 30km Curator: 52.5km + 30km Gardes may be short ranged, but NPCs primarily weak to thermal have kinetic as a secondary weakness.
Ergo, range on unbonused hulls isn't the problem. The problem is that we've been spoiled by long range, fast tracking, high DPS Gardes.
Quote:Edit: it's actually VERY reminiscent of the HML nerf where the real issue (at the time) were a couple of hulls. But I can't honestly see them rebalancing all other drone hulls after this. Not quite the same. Gardes on bonused hulls are akin to the HML problem. However, Bounces/Wardens/Curators have long range even on unbonused hulls. Again, hulls aren't the problem, Gardes are the problem.
=/
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
618
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 20:32:00 -
[231] - Quote
Remember it's not just the range, the tracking has taken a serious hit too. I've used sentries with no tracking bonuses and they're only any use for bigass slow targets at long ranges - to get any sort of range projection, tracking tanks. It's the kind of thing that looks awesome in EFT but blows in the field. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
107
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 20:33:00 -
[232] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Again, hulls aren't the problem, Gardes are the problem.
That depends on the situation. I am looking for optimals in the 100km - 120km range with still decent dps and tracking. With an unbonused hull, the changes to the Omni's make Wardens just about the only option which gives you anemic dps due to the drone, damage type, and tracking reduction. I may be spoiled with Bouncers atm, but the change still penalizes the non-bonused hulls too severely. "Fix" the problem-creating hulls, not the drones. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1354
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 21:02:00 -
[233] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:[quote=Morrigan LeSante] Quote:I just can't reconcile the gutting of drone hulls that aren't sentry range bonused. Can you imagine trying to effectively use any other drone with a rattler? Even a DNI?
The hulls aren't being gutted. Gardes are being gutted. Unbonused sentries base ranges: Garde: 30km + 12km Bouncer: 60km + 42km Warden: 75km + 30km Curator: 52.5km + 30km Gardes may be short ranged, but NPCs primarily weak to thermal have kinetic as a secondary weakness. Ergo, range on unbonused hulls isn't the problem. The problem is that we've been spoiled by long range, fast tracking, high DPS Gardes.
Emphasis mine. Also worth noting that EM-enemies are also weak to thermal secondarily (and bouncers have good range and good dps for expl weak enemies). Us being spoiled by ultra-high dps gardes at insane ranges is mostly a result of the bonuses given to the ishtar/dominix, as well as scope rigs being unpenalized. I don't particularly consider it an effect of omnilinks themselves, but that's the first step they've taken to address what is apparently a problem in CCP's eyes. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
stoicfaux
3874
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 21:05:00 -
[234] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Again, hulls aren't the problem, Gardes are the problem.
That depends on the situation. I am looking for optimals in the 100km - 120km range with still decent dps and tracking. With an unbonused hull, the changes to the Omni's make Wardens just about the only option which gives you anemic dps due to the drone, damage type, and tracking reduction. I may be spoiled with Bouncers atm, but the change still penalizes the non-bonused hulls too severely. "Fix" the problem-creating hulls, not the drones. How many gun battleships can match 600 DPS with optimals of 100+km? The range bonused Rokh and Apoc can with faction ammo and faction damage mods. I'm just not seeing why non-range bonused sentry drones should be on par with range bonused gun battleships.
I hate to admit it, but sentries aren't balanced, don't make sense in terms of lore and "realism," are hobbled with an out of date drone control range mechanic, etc.. Sentries need a balance pass, especially since drones have gone from a "secondary" weapon system to a primary weapon on a lot more hulls nowadays.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 21:12:00 -
[235] - Quote
So happy that I trained up 90 days worth of skills to enhance my Geddon sentry fun. Also very happy that my two Rattles will now collect dust. My Domis, Gilas, Navy Vexor and Ishtar also get slapped.
So awesome that this impacts 50% of all my primary pilot's ships in an un-fun way.
We should be increasing fun, not decreasing it.
Does anyone consider this change FUN? I don't.
If the issue was Gardes at long ranges, why didn't you just drop base range on Gardes? Then it wouldn't have screwed over the Navy Vexor, Ishtar, Gila, etc. with the cap garbage, nor would it have screwed the L5 mission runners (what few of them that did exist).
Why are we not fixing drone assist? Why are OMNI's a priority over infinite drone assist abuse?
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Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
108
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 21:14:00 -
[236] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Again, hulls aren't the problem, Gardes are the problem.
That depends on the situation. I am looking for optimals in the 100km - 120km range with still decent dps and tracking. With an unbonused hull, the changes to the Omni's make Wardens just about the only option which gives you anemic dps due to the drone, damage type, and tracking reduction. I may be spoiled with Bouncers atm, but the change still penalizes the non-bonused hulls too severely. "Fix" the problem-creating hulls, not the drones. How many gun battleships can match 600 DPS with optimals of 100+km? The range bonused Rokh and Apoc can with faction ammo and faction damage mods. I'm just not seeing why non-range bonused sentry drones should be on par with range bonused gun battleships. I hate to admit it, but sentries aren't balanced, don't make sense in terms of lore and "realism," are hobbled with an out of date drone control range mechanic, etc.. Sentries need a balance pass, especially since drones have gone from a "secondary" weapon system to a primary weapon on a lot more hulls nowadays.
Point 1: Because non-sentry gun ships can move...
Point 2: What you say may be true, but unless you effect change to address the so called issues on ALL drone ship hulls, then it is just a poorly enacted swipe to fix a much bigger issue. Assuming CCP will continue a course of significant and well planned drone changes is one heck of an assumption. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2128
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 21:15:00 -
[237] - Quote
Hopefully all drones get a decent balance pass soon, get there HP into balanced in all areas rather than the bulk being in hull, fix heavy drones. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
619
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 21:21:00 -
[238] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Again, hulls aren't the problem, Gardes are the problem.
That depends on the situation. I am looking for optimals in the 100km - 120km range with still decent dps and tracking. With an unbonused hull, the changes to the Omni's make Wardens just about the only option which gives you anemic dps due to the drone, damage type, and tracking reduction. I may be spoiled with Bouncers atm, but the change still penalizes the non-bonused hulls too severely. "Fix" the problem-creating hulls, not the drones. How many gun battleships can match 600 DPS with optimals of 100+km? The range bonused Rokh and Apoc can with faction ammo and faction damage mods. I'm just not seeing why non-range bonused sentry drones should be on par with range bonused gun battleships. I hate to admit it, but sentries aren't balanced, don't make sense in terms of lore and "realism," are hobbled with an out of date drone control range mechanic, etc.. Sentries need a balance pass, especially since drones have gone from a "secondary" weapon system to a primary weapon on a lot more hulls nowadays.
Why only a gunboat? Missile hulls are more than capable. Also drones are destroyable, guns are not. That said the entire notion of comparing them to guns is flawed from the outset - until such time as a "drone" attaches to the hull and works as a modular weapon consuming ammo, cant be destroyed, can be overheated and has working implants...but then we could rename them...guns.
Your second paragraph is probably right, but in all honestly just spanking the only really viable drone system with significant nerfs and nothing to compensate is just.....saywhatnow? |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 22:33:00 -
[239] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote: I loled at you noticing the copy + paste aspect of this change. The last 2-3 expansions have been 90% copy and paste of existing crap or variable changes in the database.
That and the fact that there has been only 1 expansion in this game. Wormhole systems.
Throwing a few objects in a game hardly classifies as an expansion. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 22:35:00 -
[240] - Quote
Seems like the two slot paper tank Dominix that shoot with Bouncers at 150km will still work, though sadly those fits are the semi-AFK ones that people regularly complain about.
The rattler has been dead in the water for at least a year, this is just the last nail in the coffin.
The biggest losers here are probably the new players from the last 6 months or so that have been devoting most of their SP to drones working towards getting their first Domi. |
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 22:36:00 -
[241] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote: How many gun battleships can match 600 DPS with optimals of 100+km? The range bonused Rokh and Apoc can with faction ammo and faction damage mods. I'm just not seeing why non-range bonused sentry drones should be on par with range bonused gun battleships.
I hate to admit it, but sentries aren't balanced, don't make sense in terms of lore and "realism," are hobbled with an out of date drone control range mechanic, etc.. Sentries need a balance pass, especially since drones have gone from a "secondary" weapon system to a primary weapon on a lot more hulls nowadays.
And you see them so widely used cause they are so overpowered. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2014.01.22 22:40:00 -
[242] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Seems like the two slot paper tank Dominix that shoot with Bouncers at 150km will still work, though sadly those fits are the semi-AFK ones that people regularly complain about.
The rattler has been dead in the water for at least a year, this is just the last nail in the coffin.
The biggest losers here are probably the new players from the last 6 months or so that have been devoting most of their SP to drones working towards getting their first Domi.
Meh, I quit for the 7 years it took them to fix the font problem of dec 05. My account is set to expire every month for just such an occasion. |
Moor Deybe
Delusional Aspirations Of Grandure
22
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 01:30:00 -
[243] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Moor Deybe wrote:I've just spent 3 hours on SISI in a Dominix with the new scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Links, doing Drone Hordes and other Drone Anomalies. I did these same anomalies recently with the curent Omnidirectional Tracking Links when testing out the new ESS module.
Well as expected, the Dominix is now a very different ship indeed!
Whereas before, the Dominix did these sites without too much trouble as long as you picked your targets correctly, the Drone Horde was a bit too much now for the new Dominix, because with the large range reduction on the Gardes, it got overwhelmed somewhat by the advancing Drone Battleships and their incoming DPS.
Using the EM curators against the drones (as that is their weakness), I was able to complete the sites, because the Curators have decent range still, but they're only 650 DPS (and that's with 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers) which in comparison to the 800 DPS Thermal Gardes, is a big drop.
I am somewhat dubious about that Dominix claim. I know you actually tested it on SiSi, but something seems wrong. Curators have only 81.25% the DPS of Gardes: * bouncer 87.5% * curator 81.25% * warden 75.0% However, the Alvus Queen has EHP of X versus damage type: * EM 27,231 * Expl 53,455 * Kin 39,250 * Therm 31,810 Divide the EHP by 800 DPS for Gardes, 700 for Bouncers, 650 for Curators, and 600 for Wardens to get the rough Time to Kill (TTK): * EM 27,231 / 650 = ~42s * Expl 53,455 / 700 = ~76s * Kin 39,250 / 600 = ~65s * Therm 31,810 / 800 = ~40s This does NOT take any shield/armor regeneration into account. 42 seconds for EM versus 40 seconds for Thermal is a volley difference (plus shield/armor regen.) In theory, you should have been able to use Curators at long range and Gardes at short/medium range with a minimal loss in TTK (up to ~10% longer-ish.) If anything, Garde DPS is probably a bit too high for PvE given how many NPCs have thermal as a secondary weakness. Meaning, with the high DPS of Gardes, it normally better to use Gardes on "thermal as a secondary weakness" NPCs instead using a Warden or Curator against the NPC's primary weakness. For example, for the kinetic weak Guristas Pith Eliminator, the TTKs are: Curator: 47,058 / 650 = ~72s Bouncer: 35,306 / 700 = ~50s Warden: 24,393 / 600 = ~41s Garde: 28,664 / 800 = ~36s Gardes (36s) are noticeably better than Wardens (41s). I can understand why Gardes are getting the biggest nerf (i.e. range nerfed,) but it looks like swapping between Warden/Curators at long range and Gardes at long range shouldn't translate into a huge nerf.
Interesting analysis. Those numbers all look good and the conclusions re Time To Kill (TTK) seems reasonable and yet.....
I went on the SiSi again, found a Drone Horde, warp in at 100km, which consistently puts you at 80km but hey ho! Started off with the Curators and switched to the Garde's when the rats reached the Garde optimal.
Result was the same with a Dominix in low armour / structure, being overwhelmed by the advancing Alvus Queens and other battleships, whereas with the old Garde, they'd reduced the DPS on the field before the Dominix was overwhelmed by incoming DPS.
I have no stats as such, just empirical research carried out, albeit that hits include a certain random factor, which you'd hope would average out somewhat after this many Drone Hordes
I only have this thought. The EM Curators seem better at cutting through NPC shields at range than the thermal Gardes, but the Curators seem quite poor at getting through NPC armor in comparison!
Now according to this site the Alvus Queen has the following amounts of shield, armor and structure
Shield: 3,500 HP Armor: 6,500 HP Structure: 8,000 HP
Now with the Alvus Queen having roughly 85% more armor than shields (and I am seeing it take more volleys to get through the armor when using Curators) could this account for the longer time it seems to take to get these Alvus Queens off the field and reduce incoming DPS?
I don't know if the Effective Hitpoints numbers take care of that disparity or not, I'm just reporting what I previously observed, and what I observe now.
The Drone Horde that I did, the 4 tower variant, has 62 Battleships in if I've counted correctly, so it only requires a slightly longer take down time for each Alvus Queen e.g. 2 or 3 more volleys to get through the armor with Curators compared to the Gardes, to make a significant lengthening of the mission time = more DPS on the field = results that I'm seeing.
Now with my old Garde's having an optimal out to 100km and the new ones being approx 58km, thats a good 40km the old Garde's had to do their work in, which is now being done by Curators.
I miss those old Gardes, I reckon they fired depleted uranium or something..............ah those were the days |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
199
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 01:36:00 -
[244] - Quote
Moor Deybe wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Moor Deybe wrote:I've just spent 3 hours on SISI in a Dominix with the new scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Links, doing Drone Hordes and other Drone Anomalies. I did these same anomalies recently with the curent Omnidirectional Tracking Links when testing out the new ESS module.
Well as expected, the Dominix is now a very different ship indeed!
Whereas before, the Dominix did these sites without too much trouble as long as you picked your targets correctly, the Drone Horde was a bit too much now for the new Dominix, because with the large range reduction on the Gardes, it got overwhelmed somewhat by the advancing Drone Battleships and their incoming DPS.
Using the EM curators against the drones (as that is their weakness), I was able to complete the sites, because the Curators have decent range still, but they're only 650 DPS (and that's with 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers) which in comparison to the 800 DPS Thermal Gardes, is a big drop.
I am somewhat dubious about that Dominix claim. I know you actually tested it on SiSi, but something seems wrong. Curators have only 81.25% the DPS of Gardes: * bouncer 87.5% * curator 81.25% * warden 75.0% However, the Alvus Queen has EHP of X versus damage type: * EM 27,231 * Expl 53,455 * Kin 39,250 * Therm 31,810 Divide the EHP by 800 DPS for Gardes, 700 for Bouncers, 650 for Curators, and 600 for Wardens to get the rough Time to Kill (TTK): * EM 27,231 / 650 = ~42s * Expl 53,455 / 700 = ~76s * Kin 39,250 / 600 = ~65s * Therm 31,810 / 800 = ~40s This does NOT take any shield/armor regeneration into account. 42 seconds for EM versus 40 seconds for Thermal is a volley difference (plus shield/armor regen.) In theory, you should have been able to use Curators at long range and Gardes at short/medium range with a minimal loss in TTK (up to ~10% longer-ish.) If anything, Garde DPS is probably a bit too high for PvE given how many NPCs have thermal as a secondary weakness. Meaning, with the high DPS of Gardes, it normally better to use Gardes on "thermal as a secondary weakness" NPCs instead using a Warden or Curator against the NPC's primary weakness. For example, for the kinetic weak Guristas Pith Eliminator, the TTKs are: Curator: 47,058 / 650 = ~72s Bouncer: 35,306 / 700 = ~50s Warden: 24,393 / 600 = ~41s Garde: 28,664 / 800 = ~36s Gardes (36s) are noticeably better than Wardens (41s). I can understand why Gardes are getting the biggest nerf (i.e. range nerfed,) but it looks like swapping between Warden/Curators at long range and Gardes at long range shouldn't translate into a huge nerf. Interesting analysis. Those numbers all look good and the conclusions re Time To Kill (TTK) seems reasonable and yet..... I went on the SiSi again, found a Drone Horde, warp in at 100km, which consistently puts you at 80km but hey ho! Started off with the Curators and switched to the Garde's when the rats reached the Garde optimal. Result was the same with a Dominix in low armour / structure, being overwhelmed by the advancing Alvus Queens and other battleships, whereas with the old Garde, they'd reduced the DPS on the field before the Dominix was overwhelmed by incoming DPS. I have no stats as such, just empirical research carried out, albeit that hits include a certain random factor, which you'd hope would average out somewhat after this many Drone Hordes I only have this thought. The EM Curators seem better at cutting through NPC shields at range than the thermal Gardes, but the Curators seem quite poor at getting through NPC armor in comparison! Now according to this site the Alvus Queen has the following amounts of shield, armor and structure Shield: 3,500 HP Armor: 6,500 HP Structure: 8,000 HP Now with the Alvus Queen having roughly 85% more armor than shields (and I am seeing it take more volleys to get through the armor when using Curators) could this account for the longer time it seems to take to get these Alvus Queens off the field and reduce incoming DPS? I don't know if the Effective Hitpoints numbers take care of that disparity or not, I'm just reporting what I previously observed, and what I observe now. The Drone Horde that I did, the 4 tower variant, has 62 Battleships in if I've counted correctly, so it only requires a slightly longer take down time for each Alvus Queen e.g. 2 or 3 more volleys to get through the armor with Curators compared to the Gardes, to make a significant lengthening of the mission time = more DPS on the field = results that I'm seeing. Now with my old Garde's having an optimal out to 100km and the new ones being approx 58km, thats a good 40km the old Garde's had to do their work in, which is now being done by Curators. I miss those old Gardes, I reckon they fired depleted uranium or something..............ah those were the days
One thing that may help a little (though stacking will suck) is we now have mobile depots.
This will mean its possible to swap out to a full rack of scripted omnis in the mids (providing your targeting comes form rigs and low slots) on a PvE domi while shooting and then swap your prop mods/MJD back in when it gets close to GTFO time. |
stoicfaux
3874
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 03:57:00 -
[245] - Quote
Moor Deybe wrote:Now according to this site the Alvus Queen has the following amounts of shield, armor and structure Shield: 3,500 HP Armor: 6,500 HP Structure: 8,000 HP Now with the Alvus Queen having roughly 85% more armor than shields (and I am seeing it take more volleys to get through the armor when using Curators) could this account for the longer time it seems to take to get these Alvus Queens off the field and reduce incoming DPS? I don't know if the Effective Hitpoints numbers take care of that disparity or not, I'm just reporting what I previously observed, and what I observe now. EHP does take resists into account, e.g. 3500 / (1- shield_resist) + 6500 / (1-armor_resist) + 8000. However, the resists are the same for shield and armor for the Alvus Queen so it it's a moot point.
Quote:The Drone Horde that I did, the 4 tower variant, has 62 Battleships in if I've counted correctly, so it only requires a slightly longer take down time for each Alvus Queen e.g. 2 or 3 more volleys to get through the armor with Curators compared to the Gardes, to make a significant lengthening of the mission time = more DPS on the field = results that I'm seeing.
Now with my old Garde's having an optimal out to 100km and the new ones being approx 58km, thats a good 40km the old Garde's had to do their work in, which is now being done by Curators.
I miss those old Gardes, I reckon they fired depleted uranium or something..............ah those were the days Thanks for taking the time to test again on Sisi. My tentative guess is that the extra Curator volleys per battleship is the tipping point between "easy" and "in structure."
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|
I'm Down
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
224
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 07:21:00 -
[246] - Quote
What you two guys are seeing a two fold effect.
- 1st is the difference tracking makes. Quality of hits are incredibly different for the two drones, so even though you see the paper numbers looking nearly even, the reality is in the actual math of the tracking formula. Those gardes are probably getting mostly well placed hits, where as the curators are probably getting average, and a few misplaced hits. It significantly changes the actual damage output of the drones.
This is one of the most broken parts of the game and why I often argue that the tracking formula is probably the single largest issue in the game. Because of the way the formula calculates, there is a significant drop off in damage as a ship approaches max transversal compared to the tracking speed of a weapon.
- The other thing you are seeing is the way rats react to alpha strike.
The first part of that is that assuming you transfer from one rat to the next, the first difference is the 600 extra alpha volley the gardes get at time 0 when the first strike happens. Every single rat gains 600 more damage due to the transfer. If you're shooting 60 BS in a mission as someone stated above, then that translates into a bare minimum of 36,000 damage. But that's not all
I've done some extensive testing with this over the years and found out that rats seem to react to the types of damage they are receiving in terms of their desire to repair. I've used ships with different DPS and different rates of fire in belts to test this setup.
The most obvious time this effect occurred was watching an AC Maelstrom vs a Artillery Maelstrom with the exact same ammo. Logic would tell you the AC mael should always win. But what seems to happen is that the alpha strike artillery platform somehow bugs out the rats to where they don't repair the same way they would with more consistent damage. In fact, there were many instances where rats would not repair between first and 2nd hits using Artilleries, or maybe repair 1 time.
Over the course of their life, rats being shot with AC tended to get about 4-8 x the amount of repairs of those who were being shot with Artilleries. It's so ridiculous that I can actually 2-3 volley certain rats with Artillery for a kill every 33-50 seconds, but with autocannons, It would take 70-90 seconds for the same rats even when webbed and all tracking and falloff effects removed.
So yes, you are seeing a drastic falloff from these changes... and it's primarily due to the absolute **** tracking and NPC mechanics present in game. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1161
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 09:03:00 -
[247] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:What you two guys are seeing a two fold effect.
- 1st is the difference tracking makes. Quality of hits are incredibly different for the two drones, so even though you see the paper numbers looking nearly even, the reality is in the actual math of the tracking formula. Those gardes are probably getting mostly well placed hits, where as the curators are probably getting average, and a few misplaced hits. It significantly changes the actual damage output of the drones.
This is one of the most broken parts of the game and why I often argue that the tracking formula is probably the single largest issue in the game. Because of the way the formula calculates, there is a significant drop off in damage as a ship approaches max transversal compared to the tracking speed of a weapon. The problem is that there is no calibration for sig at range which means longer range lower dps weapons are always at a disadvantage. This is also why Blap dreads are so damn effective even though logic would state that they should be **** vs smaller ships.
In simpler terms, a garde that could hit at 54 optimal with ~4000 m/s tracking and 800 dps will absolute obliterate a curator that can hit up to 90km, but only has -2400 m/s tracking at 50km and 600 dps. The sig of the ships is absolutely meaningless at that point because the ships are so low in the scope of the tracking abilities of these weapons. But what is happening is that the quality hits are skyrocketing for the weapon that has the least issue tracking. If the BS get closer, the disparity becomes more highly pronounced.
With the change to the optimal of gardes, they are also taking a big hit to their ability to track since they aren't hitting at the most ideal ranges.
- The other thing you are seeing is the way rats react to alpha strike.
The first part of that is that assuming you transfer from one rat to the next, the first difference is the 600 extra alpha volley the gardes get at time 0 when the first strike happens. Every single rat gains 600 more damage due to the transfer. If you're shooting 60 BS in a mission as someone stated above, then that translates into a bare minimum of 36,000 damage. But that's not all
I've done some extensive testing with this over the years and found out that rats seem to react to the types of damage they are receiving in terms of their desire to repair. I've used ships with different DPS and different rates of fire in belts to test this setup.
The most obvious time this effect occurred was watching an AC Maelstrom vs a Artillery Maelstrom with the exact same ammo. Logic would tell you the AC mael should always win. But what seems to happen is that the alpha strike artillery platform somehow bugs out the rats to where they don't repair the same way they would with more consistent damage. In fact, there were many instances where rats would not repair between first and 2nd hits using Artilleries, or maybe repair 1 time.
Over the course of their life, rats being shot with AC tended to get about 4-8 x the amount of repairs of those who were being shot with Artilleries. It's so ridiculous that I can actually 2-3 volley certain rats with Artillery for a kill every 33-50 seconds, but with autocannons, It would take 70-90 seconds for the same rats even when webbed and all tracking and falloff effects removed.
So yes, you are seeing a drastic falloff from these changes... and it's primarily due to the absolute **** tracking and NPC mechanics present in game.
you have no clue about how the tracking formula work.. or you are very bad at expressing your toughts in a post.
Your example of arties and AC completely forego range and the falloff effect.. the MAINS factor between them. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Moor Deybe
Delusional Aspirations Of Grandure
23
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 11:38:00 -
[248] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Thanks for taking the time to test again on Sisi. My tentative guess is that the extra Curator volleys per battleship is the tipping point between "easy" and "in structure."
Yes, perhaps my use of the Dominix in a Drone Horde was pushing it right to the edge of its capabilities and this wasn't apparent as it managed comfortably, and now with the new Omnidirectional Tracking Links, in my usage, I now find it to be past that tipping point which results in "in stucture".
I guess everyone will have to see how close to the edge of its capabilities they were using it! and I shall endeavour to get it back "in front" of the tipping point in my usage.
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
One thing that may help a little (though stacking will suck after 4th omni with same script) is we now have mobile depots.
This will mean its possible to swap out to a full rack of scripted omnis in the mids (providing your targeting comes form rigs and low slots) on a PvE domi while shooting and then swap your prop mods/MJD back in when it gets close to GTFO time.
Thanks for that, this is certainly worth considering. It might become fiddly over time, but using the mobile depot to e.g. swap out propulsion for resistance mods to give the Dominix more time in the fight is certainly worth considering, especially as the ship is immobile for the sentries anyway.
It would be interesting to see the how the CCP Dominix usage stats change over the course of the next release, but I suppose we do see that in a way as it shows up in the Market Price History graph, as demand changes and the price reflects that!
So time will tell I guess, whether the Dominix and other drone boats fall off in their usage..............and then receive a subsequent buff in a future expansion |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
190
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 12:21:00 -
[249] - Quote
Fozzie, can you do me a favor and explain how this change doesn't leave boats like the Armageddon which were rebalanced to have drones as a primary weapon system but got no range/tracking bonus out to dry? With only 4 mid slots, and at least 2 of those being used for prop mod/tackle, how in the hell are you supposed to get any kind of usable tracking or range on that ship now?
With no low slot modules to modify drone range/tracking I think this rebalance deserved a little more effort than copy stats from gun mod, paste to drone mod. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2075
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 14:31:00 -
[250] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote:Fozzie, can you do me a favor and explain how this change doesn't leave boats like the Armageddon which were rebalanced to have drones as a primary weapon system but got no range/tracking bonus out to dry? With only 4 mid slots, and at least 2 of those being used for prop mod/tackle, how in the hell are you supposed to get any kind of usable tracking or range on that ship now?
With no low slot modules to modify drone range/tracking I think this rebalance deserved a little more effort than copy stats from gun mod, paste to drone mod.
You really don't get it. Not to worry, most don't see the underlying theme of this.
Just remember where the dev came from. Then remember how much pleasure that group gets screwing up the game for others. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
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Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 14:56:00 -
[251] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote:Fozzie, can you do me a favor and explain how this change doesn't leave boats like the Armageddon which were rebalanced to have drones as a primary weapon system but got no range/tracking bonus out to dry? With only 4 mid slots, and at least 2 of those being used for prop mod/tackle, how in the hell are you supposed to get any kind of usable tracking or range on that ship now?
With no low slot modules to modify drone range/tracking I think this rebalance deserved a little more effort than copy stats from gun mod, paste to drone mod.
I am interested in the answer on this as well. Some ships will be impacted more than others. Some of which were borderline already. |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
201
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 15:42:00 -
[252] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Andrea Keuvo wrote:Fozzie, can you do me a favor and explain how this change doesn't leave boats like the Armageddon which were rebalanced to have drones as a primary weapon system but got no range/tracking bonus out to dry? With only 4 mid slots, and at least 2 of those being used for prop mod/tackle, how in the hell are you supposed to get any kind of usable tracking or range on that ship now?
With no low slot modules to modify drone range/tracking I think this rebalance deserved a little more effort than copy stats from gun mod, paste to drone mod. You really don't get it. Not to worry, most don't see the underlying theme of this. Just remember where the dev came from. Then remember how much pleasure that group gets screwing up the game for others.
Oh I get it, I'd just like to hear him say it outright since a nerf of this magnitude isn't even remotely justifiable. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2014.01.23 18:38:00 -
[253] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You really don't get it. Not to worry, most don't see the underlying theme of this.
Just remember where the dev came from. Then remember how much pleasure that group gets screwing up the game for others.
If that is the way they want to run 'their' game, then subscriptions will show it.
This is the most mindless lazy garbage anyone could ever conceive. It's lazy to the point of incompetence. This is how it works.
copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1 copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2
Edit activation cost
done
So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff.
Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff.
Scripted:
Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff
Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff
Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range
Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%.
|
I'm Down
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
227
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 04:12:00 -
[254] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:
you have no clue about how the tracking formula work.. or you are very bad at expressing your toughts in a post. Probably the second... too many mixed things and arguments make it sound you are mixing reasons.... for example:
Your example of arties and AC completely forego range and the falloff effect.. the MAIN factor between them.
Quote: It would take 70-90 seconds for the same rats even when webbed and all tracking and falloff effects removed.
did you miss the part where this was stated? It means that when you are always comparing the two shooting in optimal.
And if you did more than a quick breeze over the post, you'd realize that there was nothing about tracking in the section about autocannons vs artillery. Maybe the issues is that you just can't or won't read. |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 13:02:00 -
[255] - Quote
Postet it in the test server forum first, but i assume it belongs here as well. After playing around with the new omnidirectional tracking links, this is what i thought:
One thing that is bothering me a little about them is, that you cannot see how the script changes influence the launched drones. It would be really nice if you could see the optimal/falloff changes as you change the scripts, or the tracking increase.
When you rightclick on a turret to open the info screen, you can see the actual stats of it, with all the skill and module influences on it.
If you do the same with a launched drone in a drone window, it only shows the basic stats, as if you would click the market window info about the.
Your reason for making those modules active, with scripts, and to be able to overheat them, is flexibility in making decisions, on what script to use when, if you overheat or not - doing this just gets really hard without any feedback on the actual lauched drones, when i cannot see what results or influence my choices have.
Like.. better to run optimal range script.. or is the enemy close enough already, so i am better off switching to tracking instead of range? So it would be really great if the drones would show the actual information that is true for them right now with my skills and active modules.
I have no idea how hard this would be to code... i assume quite hard? As there is another issue with drones that is out there for years. The Drone-DPS shown in your ship window is always that of the drones still left in your drone bay, instead of the LAUNCHED ones... it is quite a bit confusing. As soon as you launch drones, the value switches to that of the leftover drones in the bay, instead to that of those that are actually "out there" and doing the damage. You can see that quite well if you use two sets of sentries. For example Garde II and Curator II. Launch the Curators and the drone DPS shown stays the same (as that of the Garde that make higher DPS was shown all the time). Launch the Garde, and it instantly drops to that of the Curators - what is wrong, as the garde are out there and doing the damage actually.
So what i wish for is more drone feedback for the launched and active drones. Current DPS values, tracking, optimal and falloff ranges. How am i supposed to make tactical decisions, if i cannot see what would be the better choice for my drones right now?
We either need this feedback, or it would be better if the omnidirectional tracking links are left alone. Bring them back to their former passive state, or include the needed informations that players can act on and decide on.
TL;DR: Without feedback and information of the current state of the active (aka launched) drones, it is useless giving us more choices - as you cannot see what choice would be the most benefical at any given moment. If it is impossible to give us this information, bring the tracking links back to their former passive state. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2078
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 13:51:00 -
[256] - Quote
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
TL;DR: Without feedback and information of the current state of the active (aka launched) drones, it is useless giving us more choices - as you cannot see what choice would be the most benefical at any given moment. If it is impossible to give us this information, bring the tracking links back to their former passive state.
You are absolutely correct that we can't give proper feedback on this nerf because of the lack of information provided ingame. And that is precisely why fozzie will do nothing about providing us the information to give proper feedback. Mustn't let facts get in the way of ideology. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
stoicfaux
3889
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 14:32:00 -
[257] - Quote
Fortunately, EVE peoples are a talented bunch.
pyfa has Rubicon 1.1 preview files: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=247609
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2133
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 14:42:00 -
[258] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Hexatron Ormand wrote:
TL;DR: Without feedback and information of the current state of the active (aka launched) drones, it is useless giving us more choices - as you cannot see what choice would be the most benefical at any given moment. If it is impossible to give us this information, bring the tracking links back to their former passive state.
You are absolutely correct that we can't give proper feedback on this nerf because of the lack of information provided ingame. And that is precisely why fozzie will do nothing about providing us the information to give proper feedback. Mustn't let facts get in the way of ideology. If you undock, activate your modules, the expand you group of drones while they are still in the drone bay you can show info on them and it will display the active effects on them. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 15:22:00 -
[259] - Quote
No matter what it is a "huge change" in the stats achieved by "simply" copying another module used for turrets on top of the current omni.
Absolutely no thought has gone into this. I've never seen such heavy mindless changes done to any stats in any game i've played. |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
201
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:18:00 -
[260] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:No matter what it is a "huge change" in the stats achieved by "simply" copying another module used for turrets on top of the current omni.
Absolutely no thought has gone into this. I've never seen such heavy mindless changes done to any stats in any game i've played.
Most of the changes of modules from passive to active and the OH changes look to me like they were done at the last minute to meet some kind of personal performance goal due to the copy + paste nature of them.
Also, as usual, we are but a few days from patch and the devs have gone ghost and are not acknowledging or commenting on these threads.
Maybe we need a new forum? We have Features & Ideas Discussion where devs can post changes they want feedback/discussion on and there could be a new forum called "Sh*tty Changes we are Forcing on You" for stuff like this where they intend to implement as is regardless of feedback. At least that way we don't waste time posting about things that are a done deal.
|
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Cheng Musana
Purple Space Ponys AAA Citizens
51
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 20:25:00 -
[261] - Quote
Sigh so i can kick my rattlesnake into the bin now. The main issue on fleet fights is that you can set hundreds of drones onto a single fleet member which probs has a insta locking ship. So annoying that im now forced to spec into T2 large turrets to compensate for the new changes. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
976
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 20:49:00 -
[262] - Quote
Cheng Musana wrote:Sigh so i can kick my rattlesnake into the bin now. The main issue on fleet fights is that you can set hundreds of drones onto a single fleet member which probs has a insta locking ship. So annoying that im now forced to spec into T2 large turrets to compensate for the new changes. With the at some point upcoming pirate ship rebalance I wonder what is in store for the RS. As is it's rather subpar compared to the domi since the BS round of changes and is now pretty objectively nerfed unless you load 4+ mids with scripted Omnis, which in many cases I imagine is more slots to then than is currently used for most drone ships/fits. The same of course can be said for any drone bonused ship without damage application bonuses, which enhances the feeling of sliding into obsolescence. Even the upcoming Nestor, in it's already lackluster state, is going to further suffer due to this.
Given the analysis of the HED fight and the growing amount of drone combat in fleet fights leading up to it I can't help but wonder if this was a response to that trend to make them less attractive, with the effects on small scale drone work being only collateral damage.
As is my RS will also be formally retired until it is re-imagined into another form, and possibly another role entirely, as it currently just has no real benefit for the job at hand anymore. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1382
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 20:59:00 -
[263] - Quote
my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
109
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 21:14:00 -
[264] - Quote
Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf.
Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 21:31:00 -
[265] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues.
Do something with artillery and railguns. They are lacking in range / firing rate. |
Novah Soul
76
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 21:47:00 -
[266] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues. Yeah I get the same impression from the dev blog.. CCP is basically f*ckin' over the pve users in an attempt to pacify the blobbers in null.... |
Lister Vindaloo
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 21:54:00 -
[267] - Quote
So why change them now? Wouldn't it be better to rebalance drones across the board and modify all the mods/rigs at the same time? This just feels like a knee jerk reaction, it'll end up a waste of dev time as it'll all have to be reworked, why not introduce a sentry tracking link that works as proposed in the OP and make otl have no effect on sentries and leave the stats alone? |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1384
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 22:02:00 -
[268] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues.
The way I see it, sentry drones have been OP in PVE since drone damage amps and t2 omnilinks were introduced. Before that I could solo almost any guristas or serpentis nullsec site with an ishtar, getting 533 damage max with perfect skills, 2 damage rigs, and gardes, at a range of 39+10km. Nowadays flying an ishtar you get 750dps with nearly the same tank at twice the range while also fitting a cloak, a prop mod, and having cap stability. Projection without dps loss, frigate blapping, damage selection, good tracking. The introduction of the mobile depot, MJD, and ishtar/domi rebalance just made sentry drones that much better.
However, a few things needed to happen for them to be adopted as a PVP doctrine. First, you needed pilots with near max skills. Their superior performance (for years) in pve meant lots of people had trained them already or were willing to. Second, there needed to be massive improvements in fleet fight stability. This pretty much has happened. Not only was TiDi invented, but we're a long way from turning our brackets off, and canceling gun cycles by clicking the icon beneath the target. Third, the obvious choices for a sentry-fleet doctrine, the ishtar and dominix, needed to get a whole lot more attractive. And boy did they ever. They got really really useful projection bonuses, the domi got its base stats balanced to match other battleships, and the ishtar got a half-decent capacitor and the CPU issues solved.
Adding onto all this, you have the archon, considered the best carrier by far for years because of its armor resistance bonus. But it didn't need to be the archon, sentry drones synergize extremely well with a carrier blob. You have functionally unlimited drone space, you're already slow and have huge HP, so moving away from your drones, or being unable to move to stay near them, is completely irrelevant. Slow targeting speed is not a downside because of drone assist, and archon blobs scale in both defense and offense as you add more due to having a 60km cap and armor tranfering, resistance bonused hull.
The drone doctrines, and specifically HED-GP, were a perfect storm years in the making. It took a long time for their OP-ness to come to the fore (in PVP), but now that it has, this is just the other shoe dropping, so to speak. As an avid drone user and explorer I hope they're not overnerfed, and CCP approaches this as an oppourtunity to do a proper drone rebalance and rewrite (hint, get rid of "drone control range.') "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
207
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 22:13:00 -
[269] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:So why change them now? Wouldn't it be better to rebalance drones across the board and modify all the mods/rigs at the same time? This just feels like a knee jerk reaction, it'll end up a waste of dev time as it'll all have to be reworked, why not introduce a sentry tracking link that works as proposed in the OP and make otl have no effect on sentries and leave the stats alone?
You would think but since this is CCP this is always the way it goes. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
976
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 22:14:00 -
[270] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues. The way I see it, sentry drones have been OP in PVE since drone damage amps and t2 omnilinks were introduced. Before that I could solo almost any guristas or serpentis nullsec site with an ishtar, getting 533 damage max with perfect skills, 2 damage rigs, and gardes, at a range of 39+10km. Nowadays flying an ishtar you get 750dps with nearly the same tank at twice the range while also fitting a cloak, a prop mod, and having cap stability. Projection without dps loss, frigate blapping, damage selection, good tracking. The introduction of the mobile depot, MJD, and ishtar/domi rebalance just made sentry drones that much better. I have issues imagining the DDA + T2 omni's made drones OP in PvE. They did certainly make them a strong contender, but those factors + the domi's bonuses and the MJD likely were pushing the envelope. Still, this affects several ships that weren't really pushing the upper bounds of drone capabilities with their bonuses.
Really the only thing I can think of that ever really made them seem OP before the bonuses was 125mbit cruiser hulls. |
|
Gedrick frogue
Heuristic Industrial And Development
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 23:03:00 -
[271] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:So why change them now? Wouldn't it be better to rebalance drones across the board and modify all the mods/rigs at the same time? This just feels like a knee jerk reaction, it'll end up a waste of dev time as it'll all have to be reworked, why not introduce a sentry tracking link that works as proposed in the OP and make otl have no effect on sentries and leave the stats alone?
Drones seem to need some love, they really don't have the right ommpf as they used too, So it would be nice if CCP killed two birds with one stone, do a rewrite on the drones decision making to sort out the backend server issue and look more closely at drone performance in general. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1385
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 23:12:00 -
[272] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: I have issues imagining the DDA + T2 omni's made drones OP in PvE. They did certainly make them a strong contender, but those factors + the domi's bonuses and the MJD likely were pushing the envelope. Still, this affects several ships that weren't really pushing the upper bounds of drone capabilities with their bonuses.
Really the only thing I can think of that ever really made them seem OP before the bonuses was 125mbit cruiser hulls.
Where you draw the "OP" line is more subjective, the point being that they've gotten nothing but buffs for years. Maybe 125mbit needs adjusting as part of balancing drones. I didn't bring it up because we've had 125mbit cruiser for far longer than drones have been OP. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Midgen
DisturbedGamers. The Explicit Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 23:21:00 -
[273] - Quote
ah ok ... so ....CFC cry, CCP coddle K gotcha! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
976
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 23:23:00 -
[274] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: I have issues imagining the DDA + T2 omni's made drones OP in PvE. They did certainly make them a strong contender, but those factors + the domi's bonuses and the MJD likely were pushing the envelope. Still, this affects several ships that weren't really pushing the upper bounds of drone capabilities with their bonuses.
Really the only thing I can think of that ever really made them seem OP before the bonuses was 125mbit cruiser hulls.
Where you draw the "OP" line is more subjective, the point being that they've gotten nothing but buffs for years. Maybe 125mbit needs adjusting as part of balancing drones. I didn't bring it up because we've had 125mbit cruiser for far longer than drones have been OP. True, we have had those hulls for a while, it's just that with the buffs to mods, new mods and certain hull bonuses, the capabilities of a full flight of sentries doesn't stand out as much at the BS level when compared with the HAC or faction cruiser level. I still think that it may not be as imbalanced as it appears, with the drawbacks being what they are.
Just an observation, one I don't know if there is any real action is required. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 23:34:00 -
[275] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:So why change them now? Wouldn't it be better to rebalance drones across the board and modify all the mods/rigs at the same time? This just feels like a knee jerk reaction, it'll end up a waste of dev time as it'll all have to be reworked, why not introduce a sentry tracking link that works as proposed in the OP and make otl have no effect on sentries and leave the stats alone?
That would take intelligence. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 23:39:00 -
[276] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues. The way I see it, sentry drones have been OP in PVE since drone damage amps and t2 omnilinks were introduced. Before that I could solo almost any guristas or serpentis nullsec site with an ishtar, getting 533 damage max with perfect skills, 2 damage rigs, and gardes, at a range of 39+10km. Nowadays flying an ishtar you get 750dps with nearly the same tank at twice the range while also fitting a cloak, a prop mod, and having cap stability. Projection without dps loss, frigate blapping, damage selection, good tracking. The introduction of the mobile depot, MJD, and ishtar/domi rebalance just made sentry drones that much better. However, a few things needed to happen for them to be adopted as a PVP doctrine. First, you needed pilots with near max skills. Their superior performance (for years) in pve meant lots of people had trained them already or were willing to. Second, there needed to be massive improvements in fleet fight stability. This pretty much has happened. Not only was TiDi invented, but we're a long way from turning our brackets off, and canceling gun cycles by clicking the icon beneath the target. Third, the obvious choices for a sentry-fleet doctrine, the ishtar and dominix, needed to get a whole lot more attractive. And boy did they ever. They got really really useful projection bonuses, the domi got its base stats balanced to match other battleships, and the ishtar got a half-decent capacitor and the CPU issues solved. Adding onto all this, you have the archon, considered the best carrier by far for years because of its armor resistance bonus. But it didn't need to be the archon, sentry drones synergize extremely well with a carrier blob of any type. You have functionally unlimited drone space, you're already slow and have huge HP, so moving away from your drones, or being unable to move to stay near them, is completely irrelevant. Slow targeting speed is not a downside because of drone assist, and archon blobs scale in both defense and offense as you add more due to having a 60km cap and armor tranfering, resistance bonused hull. The drone doctrines, and specifically HED-GP, were a perfect storm years in the making. It took a long time for their OP-ness to come to the fore (in PVP), but now that it has, this is just the other shoe dropping, so to speak. As an avid drone user and explorer I hope they're not overnerfed, and CCP approaches this as an oppourtunity to do a proper drone rebalance and rewrite (hint, get rid of "drone control range.')
Yea, and all those people that spent 6 - 8 months, more training, well they can just respec. Oh, no wait. This is eve.
You're fukt. |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
47
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 00:53:00 -
[277] - Quote
Drone causing lag in massive battle.
Nerf drone.
Problem resolved.
#genius |
Kevin Alpha
Midnight Caretakers The Methodical Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 01:15:00 -
[278] - Quote
Seeing how null-sec wars happen, and various doctrines on both sides, from n3 and friends and from CFC and friends I can see how the need to balance things is important. I used to fly a rattlesnake, but drone AI changes made the rattlesnake not a great choice for someone who did not use sentries and also was full on active in pve not the afk to win drones user. These changes being reported come not long after a bit of a scuffle in a system that suddenly had a incursion going, people on the defending side were of the notion of "gee someone pulled strings so capital fleets to decimate with sentries cannot come in" Probably untrue, but now seeing these changes, which will affect sentry carriers, domi's etc... That makes me wonder slightly. Test, but by all means get 100% feedback and if the numbers from us, your players don't come anywhere close to good scrap it poll us, see what we think would be better implement that and test. Fozzie, your at the helm of this ship, don't make us force you to wakka wakka the plank! |
Emiko Rowna
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 07:59:00 -
[279] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it. The rules:11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.
I think you have a Fight Club thing going on here. The 11 rule of posting is we don't talk about the 11 rule.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
625
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 09:15:00 -
[280] - Quote
So it's going live in three days and damn the feedback?
Honestly, that's pretty disappointing.
I'll leave it with this - these are sufficiently heavy nerfs I'm selling pirate drone boats because they're now so far outclassed by a simple dominix or ishtar there's zero point in having them. |
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Minnie Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
5
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 10:15:00 -
[281] - Quote
Not only damn the feedback, damn testing to hell as well apparently.
Was just on the test server, and its still the same as before - no indication of having an omnidir on or off, scripted or not. And the launched drones still doesn't display hull bonuses even.
I'm not particularly surprised, but ham fisted is the least I can say about this whole shenanigan. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1218
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 10:20:00 -
[282] - Quote
This type of drones needs alot more nerfs, also remove drone assist from the game. The Tears Must Flow |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2085
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 14:54:00 -
[283] - Quote
Minnie Ryder wrote:Not only damn the feedback, damn testing to hell as well apparently.
Was just on the test server, and its still the same as before - no indication of having an omnidir on or off, scripted or not. And the launched drones still doesn't display hull bonuses even.
I'm not particularly surprised, but ham fisted is the least I can say about this whole shenanigan.
Are you really surprised? Given fozzie's track record, this is standard practice. Nothing like, what, 5 or 6 business days to test and give feedback on a huge nerf with massive implications. These changes go live Tuesday, no matter how bad they are.
fozzie's style is "I know best, and I never make mistakes, and only my view of the game matters". Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Priestess Lin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
78
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 15:15:00 -
[284] - Quote
More thoughtless, reactionary nerfs from CCP. Because its not like sentry drone users aren't gimped enough by having to remain stationary and needing to fit several drone control range mods.
Haven't you learned yet not to listen to the biased herd? |
Benjamin Hamburg
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
47
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 15:54:00 -
[285] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:This type of drones needs alot more nerfs, also remove drone assist from the game.
Drones, in general (AI, UI, mechanics, etc) are ****, and you propose to make them shitier if that's even possible.
Please, get out. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1223
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 16:47:00 -
[286] - Quote
All i see is people crying about their overpowered toys being balanced. You guys only care about your precious isk/hour, even if it means keeping the game broken. The Tears Must Flow |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 17:54:00 -
[287] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:All i see is people crying about their overpowered toys being balanced. You guys only care about your precious isk/hour, even if it means keeping the game broken.
Yes, and goon alt crying, which are the biggest cry babies in the game, begging for nerfs simply cause they suck and are getting spanked even with outnumbering their opponent by 3 and 4 to 1.
We love all the goon tears though. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 20:55:00 -
[288] - Quote
New version of pyfa setup for omni changes.
https://github.com/DarkFenX/Pyfa/releases |
Lister Vindaloo
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:56:00 -
[289] - Quote
I thought they'd really gotten their act together, seeking feedback from the community and then modifying their intentions based on that feedback, but to make a change like this with no time at all to respond to feedback is ridiculous. I'm not a 100M sp bitter vet, but even I can see that this 'balance' is targeted at sentry drones, correct me if I'm wrong but, OTL's affect all types of drones don't they? Has ANY thought gone into how this will affect non-sentry drone users? I'm too bad at this game to do the maths but I fly Gal drone boats 90% of the time, so I'm pretty good with the changes considering my drone bonuses, sucks to fly an unbonused hull though. This is something you should have thought about sooner and implemented later...... |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2089
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:30:00 -
[290] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:I thought they'd really gotten their act together, seeking feedback from the community and then modifying their intentions based on that feedback, but to make a change like this with no time at all to respond to feedback is ridiculous. I'm not a 100M sp bitter vet, but even I can see that this 'balance' is targeted at sentry drones, correct me if I'm wrong but, OTL's affect all types of drones don't they? Has ANY thought gone into how this will affect non-sentry drone users? I'm too bad at this game to do the maths but I fly Gal drone boats 90% of the time, so I'm pretty good with the changes considering my drone bonuses, sucks to fly an unbonused hull though. This is something you should have thought about sooner and implemented later......
It was thought through. the dev in question has a long track record of hating any PvE income generation, particularly in high sec. This is just his latest attack. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
|
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
627
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:43:00 -
[291] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:All i see is people crying about their overpowered toys being balanced. You guys only care about your precious isk/hour, even if it means keeping the game broken.
Even though you're trolling, your post is apt to quote.
Drones were never overpowered in PvE (your 'isk/hour' remark assures me that is what you refer to). If(when) I wanted to feel 'overpowered' I would wheel out the TFI, marauder or a machariel...drone boats were just FUN.
My 'isk/hour' hasn't taken a hit, it'll go up because my favoured boats will no longer be fun so I'll be flying the stupid boats, like the rest of EvE.
Oh well. |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:48:00 -
[292] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:With the at some point upcoming pirate ship rebalance I wonder what is in store for the RS. As is it's rather subpar compared to the domi since the BS round of changes and is now pretty objectively nerfed unless you load 4+ mids with scripted Omnis, which in many cases I imagine is more slots to then than is currently used for most drone ships/fits. The same of course can be said for any drone bonused ship without damage application bonuses, which enhances the feeling of sliding into obsolescence. Even the upcoming Nestor, in it's already lackluster state, is going to further suffer due to this. As I recall the balance team has stated that they think that the Rattlesnake and Gila are in a good place right now (this was before the omnidirectional change) so the implication was that they aren't going to get much love in the pirate faction re-balance. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
329
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 04:19:00 -
[293] - Quote
Celia Therone wrote: As I recall the balance team has stated that they think that the Rattlesnake and Gila are in a good place right now (this was before the omnidirectional change) so the implication was that they aren't going to get much love in the pirate faction re-balance.
Anyone who things the Rattlesnake is in a good place right now is totally clueless. http://eveion.blogspot.com/ |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
209
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 08:39:00 -
[294] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Celia Therone wrote: As I recall the balance team has stated that they think that the Rattlesnake and Gila are in a good place right now (this was before the omnidirectional change) so the implication was that they aren't going to get much love in the pirate faction re-balance.
Anyone who things the Rattlesnake is in a good place right now is totally clueless.
Yes, and these are also the same people who control the game we put our time/money into. Not good. |
Zulu PG
Empyrean Warriors Insidious Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 10:04:00 -
[295] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie,
It has been 10 days now since you announced the change of OTL and there have been several points from the community, which you should really reply to, since it is only two days before this change goes live.
1. By saying "the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves", why are no chagnes to drones implemented? Since some people got it right and see it as an overall nerf to sentry drones and not just to the module. Basically the change means, that there will be no thermal damage available for sentry users, where there was freedom of damage type before. I think this question is releveant especially because you said the follwong: "We believe that with these changes Sentry Drones will still be very viable and popular weapon systems, and that the results will be a better set of choices for players to make when fitting and flying". A justified question by the community was then, why not have a longe range and a short range version of all drone types, so that there is still freedom of damage type at close range and at sniping range?
2. The community understands that this change intends to nerf the capability of Gardes to shoot with very good tracking and very high dps from very far ranges. But it was pointed out that this is basically only the case with the bonused hulls (Dominix and Ishtar). What is the explanation for crippling the damage potential of the unbonused hulls (Rattlesnake, Stratios, Proteus, Vexor etc.)?
3. Also pointed out by the community is, that this change seems to primary affect sentry usage in fleet fights. If this is true (and it very much seems so), why not directly removing or altering the drone assist?
4. You said "The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses", but this was a false statement, because in fact now drone users have to choose between "excelent tracking" and "just better" range, why not keep the choice at either 30% tracking or 30% range?
5. Of course we expect more changes in the future, but can you hint us in which direction the sentry drones are expected to evolve? Since it might be a hard choice for new players to invest a lot of SP into a weapon system they might not have wanted to learn and use after all the changes.
By saying: "These changes will be live on SISI very soon for your testing, and we as always thank you in advance for your constructive and useful feedback." I think that you should deliver at least one statement which covers the main points of critic and also positive feedback (which basically did not exist) to these changes, else your whole post of of would have missed the target of receiving feedback if all feedback is ignored.
Please remember: only two days left until a change goes live which seems to be not a very well balanced one. But maybe the community will change its mind after an explanation of yours.
Thank you
Z
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1177
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 12:34:00 -
[296] - Quote
Zulu PG wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
It has been 10 days now since you announced the change of OTL and there have been several points from the community, which you should really reply to, since it is only two days before this change goes live.
1. By saying "the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves", why are no chagnes to drones implemented? Since some people got it right and see it as an overall nerf to sentry drones and not just to the module. Basically the change means, that there will be no thermal damage available for sentry users, where there was freedom of damage type before. I think this question is releveant especially because you said the follwong: "We believe that with these changes Sentry Drones will still be very viable and popular weapon systems, and that the results will be a better set of choices for players to make when fitting and flying". A justified question by the community was then, why not have a longe range and a short range version of all drone types, so that there is still freedom of damage type at close range and at sniping range?
2. The community understands that this change intends to nerf the capability of Gardes to shoot with very good tracking and very high dps from very far ranges. But it was pointed out that this is basically only the case with the bonused hulls (Dominix and Ishtar). What is the explanation for crippling the damage potential of the unbonused hulls (Rattlesnake, Stratios, Proteus, Vexor etc.)?
3. Also pointed out by the community is, that this change seems to primary affect sentry usage in fleet fights. If this is true (and it very much seems so), why not directly removing or altering the drone assist?
4. You said "The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses", but this was a false statement, because in fact now drone users have to choose between "excelent tracking" and "just better" range, why not keep the choice at either 30% tracking or 30% range?
5. Of course we expect more changes in the future, but can you hint us in which direction the sentry drones are expected to evolve? Since it might be a hard choice for new players to invest a lot of SP into a weapon system they might not have wanted to learn and use after all the changes.
By saying: "These changes will be live on SISI very soon for your testing, and we as always thank you in advance for your constructive and useful feedback." I think that you should deliver at least one statement which covers the main points of critic and also positive feedback (which basically did not exist) to these changes, else your whole post of of would have missed the target of receiving feedback if all feedback is ignored.
Please remember: only two days left until a change goes live which seems to be not a very well balanced one. But maybe the community will change its mind after an explanation of yours.
Thank you
Z
because currently Sentries are Overpowered. Even on unbonused range hulls.
They allow an armageddon for a clear example to have more effective damage projection and extra high slot resources thatn ANY turret ship.
Just check on TQ.. how much harder is to fit an abaddon do do damage at same range an armageddon does... with same level of tank and then armageddon can still sport NEuts, RR and stuff like that.
Simply... Sentry droens + omni links are OVERPOWERED. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
628
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 13:20:00 -
[297] - Quote
If you think unbonused sentries are overpowered, you should see what a real DPS boat can do.
Take a rattlesnake, I can outdamage that at any range it is capable of with a TFI, or a CNR. That's today, never mind once omis take the nerf bat to the face.
So the question remains, why are we hobbling unbonused hulls when the actual issue here, is the bonused hulls. Why are T1 battleships better drone boats than the pirate or navy equivalents? |
Zulu PG
Empyrean Warriors Insidious Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 14:38:00 -
[298] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Zulu PG wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie,
It has been 10 days now since you announced the change of OTL and there have been several points from the community, which you should really reply to, since it is only two days before this change goes live.
1. By saying "the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves", why are no chagnes to drones implemented? Since some people got it right and see it as an overall nerf to sentry drones and not just to the module. Basically the change means, that there will be no thermal damage available for sentry users, where there was freedom of damage type before. I think this question is releveant especially because you said the follwong: "We believe that with these changes Sentry Drones will still be very viable and popular weapon systems, and that the results will be a better set of choices for players to make when fitting and flying". A justified question by the community was then, why not have a longe range and a short range version of all drone types, so that there is still freedom of damage type at close range and at sniping range?
2. The community understands that this change intends to nerf the capability of Gardes to shoot with very good tracking and very high dps from very far ranges. But it was pointed out that this is basically only the case with the bonused hulls (Dominix and Ishtar). What is the explanation for crippling the damage potential of the unbonused hulls (Rattlesnake, Stratios, Proteus, Vexor etc.)?
3. Also pointed out by the community is, that this change seems to primary affect sentry usage in fleet fights. If this is true (and it very much seems so), why not directly removing or altering the drone assist?
4. You said "The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses", but this was a false statement, because in fact now drone users have to choose between "excelent tracking" and "just better" range, why not keep the choice at either 30% tracking or 30% range?
5. Of course we expect more changes in the future, but can you hint us in which direction the sentry drones are expected to evolve? Since it might be a hard choice for new players to invest a lot of SP into a weapon system they might not have wanted to learn and use after all the changes.
By saying: "These changes will be live on SISI very soon for your testing, and we as always thank you in advance for your constructive and useful feedback." I think that you should deliver at least one statement which covers the main points of critic and also positive feedback (which basically did not exist) to these changes, else your whole post of of would have missed the target of receiving feedback if all feedback is ignored.
Please remember: only two days left until a change goes live which seems to be not a very well balanced one. But maybe the community will change its mind after an explanation of yours.
Thank you
Z
because currently Sentries are Overpowered. Even on unbonused range hulls. They allow an armageddon for a clear example to have more effective damage projection and extra high slot resources thatn ANY turret ship. Just check on TQ.. how much harder is to fit an abaddon do do damage at same range an armageddon does... with same level of tank and then armageddon can still sport NEuts, RR and stuff like that. Simply... Sentry droens + omni links are OVERPOWERED.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1178
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 15:25:00 -
[299] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you think unbonused sentries are overpowered, you should see what a real DPS boat can do.
Take a rattlesnake, I can outdamage that at any range it is capable of with a TFI, or a CNR. That's today, never mind once omis take the nerf bat to the face.
So the question remains, why are we hobbling unbonused hulls when the actual issue here, is the bonused hulls. Why are T1 battleships better drone boats than the pirate or navy equivalents?
But can you outdamage an armageddon or dominix WHILE fieldign 6 NEUTS at same time?
oo right.. YOU CANNOT!
Normal domi is better than navy domi because nooblets whined that the changes to the dominix were a nerf ( as I said noobs) and then rise kep the navy domi as the useless mix od hibrids and drones to kepe them happy. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
SuperBeastie
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
84
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 16:18:00 -
[300] - Quote
Nerf battleships they should only be able to hit things with 300 sig or greater for full damage. one class of ship under just like titans because being dunked by a battleship in a frigate is unfair if i only want to fly sup frigates there should be no downside.
|
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1178
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 16:24:00 -
[301] - Quote
SuperBeastie wrote:Nerf battleships they should only be able to hit things with 300 sig or greater for full damage. one class of ship under just like titans because being dunked by a battleship in a frigate is unfair if i only want to fly sup frigates there should be no downside.
That is not the point. THe point is the WITHIN ship class balance. Snetry boats were much more pwoerful thatn turret ones. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
628
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 16:27:00 -
[302] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you think unbonused sentries are overpowered, you should see what a real DPS boat can do.
Take a rattlesnake, I can outdamage that at any range it is capable of with a TFI, or a CNR. That's today, never mind once omis take the nerf bat to the face.
So the question remains, why are we hobbling unbonused hulls when the actual issue here, is the bonused hulls. Why are T1 battleships better drone boats than the pirate or navy equivalents? But can you outdamage an armageddon or dominix WHILE fieldign 6 NEUTS at same time? oo right.. YOU CANNOT! Normal domi is better than navy domi because nooblets whined that the changes to the dominix were a nerf ( as I said noobs) and then rise kep the navy domi as the useless mix od hibrids and drones to kepe them happy.
If I was using Neuts, I'd be using heavies. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 18:10:00 -
[303] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: I'd be using heavies.
Then you're bad. Heavies suck.
|
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
628
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 18:26:00 -
[304] - Quote
Not point blank, all up in someone's face. You know, where you'd use neuts. Even the geddon doesn't have much reach on them.
Or are you telling me you're using sentries [long range], with omnis [moooar range] and neuts [pont blank]...in which case we need a chat about who is bad |
ashley Eoner
246
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 20:50:00 -
[305] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Not point blank, all up in someone's face. You know, where you'd use neuts. Even the geddon doesn't have much reach on them. Or are you telling me you're using sentries [long range], with omnis [moooar range] and neuts [point blank]...in which case we need a chat about who is bad Well that's cute. I clicked post and it erased everything I typed out... |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
634
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 21:01:00 -
[306] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Not point blank, all up in someone's face. You know, where you'd use neuts. Even the geddon doesn't have much reach on them. Or are you telling me you're using sentries [long range], with omnis [moooar range] and neuts [point blank]...in which case we need a chat about who is bad Well that's cute. I clicked post and it erased everything I typed out...
always copy a post before you try too post it especially if its long or wait till it automatically saves ... a little yellow draft in bottom left of box Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 21:11:00 -
[307] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: because currently Sentries are Overpowered. Even on unbonused range hulls.
They allow an armageddon for a clear example to have more effective damage projection and extra high slot resources thatn ANY turret ship.
Just check on TQ.. how much harder is to fit an abaddon do do damage at same range an armageddon does... with same level of tank and then armageddon can still sport NEuts, RR and stuff like that.
Simply... Sentry droens + omni links are OVERPOWERED.
And we all know ship stats can never be changed. |
ashley Eoner
246
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 21:19:00 -
[308] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Not point blank, all up in someone's face. You know, where you'd use neuts. Even the geddon doesn't have much reach on them. Or are you telling me you're using sentries [long range], with omnis [moooar range] and neuts [point blank]...in which case we need a chat about who is bad Well that's cute. I clicked post and it erased everything I typed out... always copy a post before you try too post it especially if its long or wait till it automatically saves ... a little yellow draft in bottom left of box It did save as a draft and that was the problem I think. When I clicked post it said saved as draft and then gave me an empty post. I loaded the draft but all that showed was the original quoted post.. .ugh.
In PVE the armageddon isn't that powerful. The dominix is without a doubt the king of sentry pve though. That's because with all the tools that CCP has given us over the years a dominix doesn't have to worry much about having a real tank for PVE.
EDIT : Considering the size of my post in hindsight I should of done the copy paste into notepad as a backup thing. I should of known something would happen. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1987
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 21:59:00 -
[309] - Quote
Forum monster ate my post.
CCP fix the freakin' forums.
Then folk can say what they think of the proposed changes. This is not a signature. |
DivineHero
University of Caille Gallente Federation
189
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 06:46:00 -
[310] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:my rattlesnake is much more hurt by the scope chip nerf than the omni nerf. Secondary issue but the whole stacking on rigs is the nail in the coffin IMHO. I may be too suspicious but to me, this is actually what appears to be a significant driver behind the Omni/Rig change - http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/what-a-hed-ache/ Discouraging drone use ASAP to resolve server performance issues.
Hmm. "Drones" will be wiped out. Can i have my SP compensation ? :facepalm:
-P-¦-¦-¦,-¦-¦-+-+ -¦-+-é -¦ -ç-æ-+.-P-¦-+-+ -+-+ -¦-¦-ü,-¦-ü-¦ -¦-ï -+-+-+,-+-+-¦-¦-é,-+-+-¦-é-+ -+-+ -¦-¦-ü -+-¦,-é-+-ç-+-+ -+-+-¦-¦-é,-ç-é-+ -é-â-é -+-Ç-+-+-ü-à-+-¦-+-é. |
|
Htirlic
Evil Harmful Wonderfully Lazy
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 15:39:00 -
[311] - Quote
The end of the game, with the release of update you minus one subscriber. This "innovation" kills not mechanics, and the desire to play. "Thank you" for the wasted time, no small to notice on study skills. I wanted to get pleasure from the game (it was), but not another crap. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 17:16:00 -
[312] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote: I'd be using heavies.
Then you're bad. Heavies suck.
Perhaps, just perhaps, it is in fact the case that the drone skills on your non-anonymous-forum-posting-account suck. You know, TBH.
Aside from that, if the Rattlesnake and Gila get no love on the rebalance, they become essentially useless in PVE in generally, filling only very niche roles when circumstances allow. Just another small step pushing subscription numbers further down. But hey, the server will perform better with fewer people right? The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1404
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 18:30:00 -
[313] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Just another small step pushing subscription numbers further down.
Can we stop with the melodrama and eve is dying and all the bullshit? people are ass-pained because their stuff is getting nerfed. I should know, I'm one of those people. But saying crap like this isn't going to convince CCP. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
SemperFidelis Shi
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 19:26:00 -
[314] - Quote
I remember that after Battleships rebalance, there was another nerf on Dominix: reduce tracking bonus so that it will be "balanced".
Then, nerf Sentries too.
Now which one is unbalanced? Can we get back the Dominix bonus? |
Minnie Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
9
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 19:36:00 -
[315] - Quote
Day before patch, just been on SiSi. Nothing changed there, still there's no indication in show info of the actuall effects of the omnidirectionals.
Back here, still not a single post to this thread by anyone of CCP. Shame on you is all I've got to say, shame on you. This is not how to work with the community with feedback and changes. Shame on you again. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 19:50:00 -
[316] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:Just another small step pushing subscription numbers further down. Can we stop with the melodrama and eve is dying and all the bullshit? people are ass-pained because their stuff is getting nerfed. I should know, I'm one of those people. But saying crap like this isn't going to convince CCP.
That is not what I said. I said pushing subscriptions down. For a variety of reasons, I suspect there will be a measurable number of folks that will simply be fed up with the lack of listening on CCP's part before making major changes like this. I am not real keen on the SP I have invested in drones going into a black hole when until very recently, it seemed that drones would be getting a true rework. This, without any additional information from CCP, seems to be a haphazard nerf without an overall plan. There has been a severe lack of content as of late in many people's opinions, mine included, and the numbers continue to reflect a decrease in subscribers/activity levels. As hundreds of people have posted before me, bug fixes and game rebalance is not true content. CCP has for quite some time simply been reacting to subsets of the player base finding manners to exploit the current mechanics. I am not saying Eve is "dying", but changes like this certainly don't help. CCP needs to score in the next 12 months or we will be talking about more dire situations IMHO.
So how about you shut your trap and stop putting words in other people's mouths m'kay? The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1405
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 19:58:00 -
[317] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:That is not what I said. I said pushing subscriptions down.... I am not real keen on the SP I have invested in drones going into a black hole... the numbers continue to reflect a decrease in subscribers/activity levels..... I am not saying Eve is "dying", but changes like this certainly don't help. CCP needs to score in the next 12 months or we will be talking about more dire situations IMHO. So how about you shut your trap and stop putting words in other people's mouths m'kay?
"I didn't say Eve is dying, I said it was stagnating and people were leaving it." "My drone SP is now worthless" "Eve is dying and the numbers show this." "Eve is dying, or if not, soon will be."
I really don't have to make anything up, its all right there. Guess what. Drones will still be awesome. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 20:03:00 -
[318] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Blah blah blah.
My apologies, I didn't realize you were one of "those" people. I will disregard your comments as I suspect the rest of the folks here do. Thanks for clarifying... The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
ashley Eoner
246
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 20:19:00 -
[319] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Batelle wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:Just another small step pushing subscription numbers further down. Can we stop with the melodrama and eve is dying and all the bullshit? people are ass-pained because their stuff is getting nerfed. I should know, I'm one of those people. But saying crap like this isn't going to convince CCP. That is not what I said. I said pushing subscriptions down. For a variety of reasons, I suspect there will be a measurable number of folks that will simply be fed up with the lack of listening on CCP's part before making major changes like this. I am not real keen on the SP I have invested in drones going into a black hole when until very recently, it seemed that drones would be getting a true rework. This, without any additional information from CCP, seems to be a haphazard nerf without an overall plan. There has been a severe lack of content as of late in many people's opinions, mine included, and the numbers continue to reflect a decrease in subscribers/activity levels. As hundreds of people have posted before me, bug fixes and game rebalance is not true content. CCP has for quite some time simply been reacting to subsets of the player base finding manners to exploit the current mechanics. I am not saying Eve is "dying", but changes like this certainly don't help. CCP needs to score in the next 12 months or we will be talking about more dire situations IMHO. So how about you shut your trap and stop putting words in other people's mouths m'kay? I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...
Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.
My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1405
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 20:58:00 -
[320] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...
Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.
My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live.
I'm sure CCP is well acquainted with randomness and will not take your resub as an endorsement specifically of rubicon 1.1 That said if you quit over a nerf before, this definitely also counts as a nerf. I don't know what you mean by asking for "better communication." I also would like to see additional justification from Fozzie on this matter, but I'm also disappointment that several people chose this thread to attack him personally and question his motives. Ultimately if CCP wants to nerf something, they shouldn't really back down over some self-interested persons being upset about it. They should listen to some fact-based comparisons and rational discussions, of which there has been plenty already in this thread, some saying it won't be that bad, others that certain ships/uses will be critically affected.
As for this not making it live, its being deployed tomorrow. I expect a new wave of discussion about the omnilink nerfs starting then. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
|
Dedee Rediculous
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 01:52:00 -
[321] - Quote
It'll be a tidal wave of tears because next to no one reads F&I.
Tomorrow should be interesting. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
219
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 04:25:00 -
[322] - Quote
Batelle wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...
Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.
My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live.
I'm sure CCP is well acquainted with randomness and will not take your resub as an endorsement specifically of rubicon 1.1 That said if you quit over a nerf before, this definitely also counts as a nerf. I don't know what you mean by asking for "better communication." I also would like to see additional justification from Fozzie on this matter, but I'm also disappointment that several people chose this thread to attack him personally and question his motives. Ultimately if CCP wants to nerf something, they shouldn't really back down over some self-interested persons being upset about it. They should listen to some fact-based comparisons and rational discussions, of which there has been plenty already in this thread, some saying it won't be that bad, others that certain ships/uses will be critically affected. As for this not making it live, its being deployed tomorrow. I expect a new wave of discussion about the omnilink nerfs starting then.
Its probably more a case of "nerf it more than we think it needs and then back off the nerf a bit next patch to a more reasonable level" :D That way everyone will be happy about the un-nerf even though its still a nerf compared to original.
I had a kitten once that was cupboard mad. If you accidentally locked it in a cupboard and then later realized and let it out, it treated you like a "savior and hero" even though you were the one that had locked it in, |
Emiko Rowna
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 06:50:00 -
[323] - Quote
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered? |
ashley Eoner
246
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 07:31:00 -
[324] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Batelle wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...
Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.
My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live.
I'm sure CCP is well acquainted with randomness and will not take your resub as an endorsement specifically of rubicon 1.1 That said if you quit over a nerf before, this definitely also counts as a nerf. I don't know what you mean by asking for "better communication." I also would like to see additional justification from Fozzie on this matter, but I'm also disappointment that several people chose this thread to attack him personally and question his motives. Ultimately if CCP wants to nerf something, they shouldn't really back down over some self-interested persons being upset about it. They should listen to some fact-based comparisons and rational discussions, of which there has been plenty already in this thread, some saying it won't be that bad, others that certain ships/uses will be critically affected. As for this not making it live, its being deployed tomorrow. I expect a new wave of discussion about the omnilink nerfs starting then. Its probably more a case of "nerf it more than we think it needs and then back off the nerf a bit next patch to a more reasonable level" :D That way everyone will be happy about the un-nerf even though its still a nerf compared to original. I had a kitten once that was cupboard mad. If you accidentally locked it in a cupboard and then later realized and let it out, it treated you like a "savior and hero" even though you were the one that had locked it in, Indeed that pattern has repeated itself endlessly over the years..
As for my request of "better communications"? Well I was specifically referring to the fact that CCP has completely disappeared from this thread after several good points were posted. Some sort of explanation as to why the half assed setup exists on the test server and if we should prepare for the same on the main server would be a good start. Addressing the legitimate concerns of some of the posters would be nice too.
I don't have any delusions that my 4 subscriptions will be noticed by CCP either. It's just the principle at this point. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
8
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 11:30:00 -
[325] - Quote
Batelle wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...
Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.
My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live.
I'm sure CCP is well acquainted with randomness and will not take your resub as an endorsement specifically of rubicon 1.1 That said if you quit over a nerf before, this definitely also counts as a nerf. I don't know what you mean by asking for "better communication." I also would like to see additional justification from Fozzie on this matter, but I'm also disappointment that several people chose this thread to attack him personally and question his motives. Ultimately if CCP wants to nerf something, they shouldn't really back down over some self-interested persons being upset about it. They should listen to some fact-based comparisons and rational discussions, of which there has been plenty already in this thread, some saying it won't be that bad, others that certain ships/uses will be critically affected. As for this not making it live, its being deployed tomorrow. I expect a new wave of discussion about the omnilink nerfs starting then.
Butthurt? Why are you so concerned. I mean, what, 4 posts on this?
I've quit for a lot less and do the same with other games.
It's really very simple. Take away what people like, they leave.
Hide and watch. |
Monsieur Leon
Lopht Heavy Industries
11
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 11:39:00 -
[326] - Quote
Emiko Rowna wrote:Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?
Oh they were never overpowered. The only thing that is overpowered is Goons ability to b*t*h and whine and CCP's response to them solely.
Everytime someone comes up with a clever way to even the numbers. Goons whine and their CCP pets listen and obey.
So for carriers we nerfed the warp mechanics making they way too slow require them to jump due to ceptor changes. Then the ESS (Eat S**T Suckers) module stealing 5% from all the folks who pay for their SOV (which of course is the all the money that maintains Concord). And the Coup de gr+óce nerfing the drones tracking / range and having the "new" modules drain cap. Transforming drone boats to museum pieces.
Gee, maybe i should join goons then i could have my own CCP code monkey on a short leash too.
Do you think you guys could actually do some work for the other people in the game? Or hey why not fix the things that have been broken for years before having people rage quit over stupid s**t like this. |
Shpenat
Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation The Obsidian Front
64
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 12:00:00 -
[327] - Quote
Emiko Rowna wrote:Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?
Sentries were never overpowered. That is why nobody is changing sentries.
Omnidirectional tracking links on the other hand were.
Lets have a look at the sentry drones first (T2 variant). Their statistics are on par with large guns. Resolution of 400mm, DPS around 20 per drone, tracking ranging from 0.012 to 0.036 rad/s. They have some advantages over guns (will continue to fire when ship is jammed or out of cap) and disadvantages (cant move, can be destroyed).
So in short sentry drones can be considered as large guns. However you can fit maximum of 5 of them at any given time while battleships usually sports 7-8 large guns. This is compensated by giving drone boats higher drone damage bonus (10% per level) and allowing them to use decent number of guns.
So far so good. Now the omnidirectional tracking link comes into scene and it tips the balance off. with every passive omni you get 30% optimal range and 30% tracking to every drone (sans stacking penalties). This is far superior to what your large guns can get with tracking computers and tracking enhancers. So changing omnidirectional tracking link to match that of tracking computer makes sense.
Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
635
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 13:42:00 -
[328] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:So far so good. Now the omnidirectional tracking link comes into scene and it tips the balance off. with every passive omni you get 30% optimal range and 30% tracking to every drone (sans stacking penalties). This is far superior to what your large guns can get with tracking computers and tracking enhancers. So changing omnidirectional tracking link to match that of tracking computer makes sense.
It makes sense until you consider that drone boats have one fewer slot [because droneboat], cannot realistically move and shoot, nor manage transversal or angular velocity, their guns are destructible (setting aside carriers which have different issues), those mods were also harder to fit than TCs and they have no equivalent of a TE. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2138
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 14:17:00 -
[329] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:[quote=Emiko Rowna]
Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants.
Are you saying that the incompetence was so bad that Fed Navy Omni's no longer have any bonus over T2's? Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
John Ratcliffe
Sarumans Hand
263
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 14:33:00 -
[330] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:Emiko Rowna wrote:Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered? Sentries were never overpowered. That is why nobody is changing sentries. Omnidirectional tracking links on the other hand were. Lets have a look at the sentry drones first (T2 variant). Their statistics are on par with large guns. Resolution of 400mm, DPS around 20 per drone, tracking ranging from 0.012 to 0.036 rad/s. They have some advantages over guns (will continue to fire when ship is jammed or out of cap) and disadvantages (cant move, can be destroyed). So in short sentry drones can be considered as large guns. However you can fit maximum of 5 of them at any given time while battleships usually sports 7-8 large guns. This is compensated by giving drone boats higher drone damage bonus (10% per level) and allowing them to use decent number of guns. So far so good. Now the omnidirectional tracking link comes into scene and it tips the balance off. with every passive omni you get 30% optimal range and 30% tracking to every drone (sans stacking penalties). This is far superior to what your large guns can get with tracking computers and tracking enhancers. So changing omnidirectional tracking link to match that of tracking computer makes sense. Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants.
Why do they need to be the same? Homogenisation is completely pointless. There should be something completely OP. Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |
|
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1414
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 15:51:00 -
[331] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Shpenat wrote:[quote=Emiko Rowna]
Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants. Are you saying that the incompetence was so bad that Fed Navy Omni's no longer have any bonus over T2's?
This is worth repeating. Fed Navy Omnis are now trash.
old t2 omni - 25% optimal, 25% tracking old faction omni - 30% optimal, 30% tracking (based on the copy&paste from faction tracking comps)
new t2 omni (range) - 15% optimal, 30% falloff new faction omni (range) - 16% optimal, 35% falloff (oh wow 1% optimal, 5% falloff, and 3 CPU saved, wow this is a piece of junk for low-sp plebs).
On my Rattlesnake I run two faction omnis with a t2 scope chip. After the nerf, here is how gardes are affected. 40% reduction in tracking, and 20-25% reduction in effective range, from 59+12 to 45+21 (once you're a few km into garde falloff you're better switching to different drones). The optimal range nerf on scope chips and omnis is so heavy that they're giving up all their tracking bonuses and still lose a chunk of range even with scripts. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
217
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 16:24:00 -
[332] - Quote
Since ISD is all over locking the GD thread what does anyone think the percentage chance that Fozzie will come to this thread and address these issues is? I'm going with 0% |
Arthur Aihaken
State Protectorate Caldari State
2848
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 17:46:00 -
[333] - Quote
Batelle wrote:This is worth repeating. Fed Navy Omnis are now trashGǪ On my Rattlesnake I run two faction omnis with a t2 scope chip. After the nerf, here is how gardes are affected. 40% reduction in tracking, and 20-25% reduction in effective range, from 59+12 to 45+21 (once you're a few km into garde falloff you're better switching to different drones). The optimal range nerf on scope chips and omnis is so heavy that they're giving up all their tracking bonuses and still lose a chunk of range even with scripts. You forgot that they're now active modules that require capacitor. Rubicon 1.1: "Everything Is Fair Game" (for the nerf bat!) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
637
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 17:52:00 -
[334] - Quote
Just get with the lolrauder program already. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2148
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 22:59:00 -
[335] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote:Since ISD is all over locking the GD thread what does anyone think the percentage chance that Fozzie will come to this thread and address these issues is? I'm going with 0%
He did respond in my GD thread before ISD locked it down. Standard "I did what I said I was going to do. Drones are competitive with other weapon systems now". I believe he was talking about rockets and light missiles, but can't be sure. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Arthur Aihaken
State Protectorate Caldari State
2850
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:01:00 -
[336] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:He did respond in my GD thread before ISD locked it down. Standard "I did what I said I was going to do. Drones are competitive with other weapon systems now". I believe he was talking about rockets and light missiles, but can't be sure. Drones just became un-op. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Cypher Decypher
Flowery Twats
23
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:04:00 -
[337] - Quote
An ill-conceived, poorly implemented, knee-jerk response to an issue that could have so easily been addressed by looking at Drone Assist mechanics.
No supporting code (read: statistical info in-game) to allow for proper testing.
Twelve days' notice for SISI testing and no acknowledgment of feedback whatsoever.
Pretty unimpressive.
|
Arthur Aihaken
State Protectorate Caldari State
2850
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:11:00 -
[338] - Quote
This is so awesome. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
986
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:12:00 -
[339] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:He did respond in my GD thread before ISD locked it down. Standard "I did what I said I was going to do. Drones are competitive with other weapon systems now". I believe he was talking about rockets and light missiles, but can't be sure. Drones just became un-op. Since when was the rattlesnake OP? |
Arthur Aihaken
State Protectorate Caldari State
2850
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:27:00 -
[340] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Since when was the rattlesnake OP? What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
986
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:36:00 -
[341] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Since when was the rattlesnake OP? What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected. Rattlesnake is actually indicative of the capabilities of most sentry platforms, if it isn't OP, it's pretty hard to argue drones are OP.
And the armageddon, gilla, nestor, stratios, drone proteus, myrm, eos and anything else with a drone damage bonus and no sentry application bonus I may be forgetting could equally be applied. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
224
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 23:52:00 -
[342] - Quote
Emiko Rowna wrote:Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?
no no .. its not Sentries that were ever the problem.
there are two contentious drone issues ...
Issue 1. The Dominix and the Ishtar have got hull bonuses that have made them ridiculously good sentry boats and they have become the drone mission/rat boat of choice.
2. in fleet battles people started assigning sentry drones en masse to "assist" a single fast locking FC who then fires all the drones at once, creating server issues and seriously upsetting the GSF who for reasons of their own do not want to adopt this doctrine and have trouble countering it.
However I doubt this change is about those issues. The omni change have made the Domi and ishtar even MORE the drone boat of choice than before (the nerf mainly effects unbonused hulls) and is unlikely to have much effect on drone assist doctrines at all (bouncers firing at 150-200km are still fine after the nerf) .
What is actually more likely is this change is nothing to do with omnis/sentries being OP at all ... but is instead part of an overall "dumbing down" we are seeing where all modules and ships are getting "balanced" to be more and more similar ... presumably to make it "easier" for new players to get into the game.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1529
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 00:12:00 -
[343] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Emiko Rowna wrote:Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered? no no .. its not Sentries that were ever the problem. there are two contentious drone issues ... Issue 1. The Dominix and the Ishtar have got hull bonuses that have made them ridiculously good sentry boats and they have become the drone mission/rat boat of choice. 2. in fleet battles people started assigning sentry drones en masse to "assist" a single fast locking FC who then fires all the drones at once, creating server issues and seriously upsetting the GSF who for reasons of their own do not want to adopt this doctrine and have trouble countering it. However I doubt this change is about those issues. The omni change have made the Domi and ishtar even MORE the drone boat of choice than before (the nerf mainly effects unbonused hulls not teh Domi/Ishtar) and it is unlikely the change will have much effect on drone assist doctrines at all (bouncers firing at 150-200km are still fine after the nerf for example) . What is actually more likely is this change is nothing to do with omnis/sentries being OP at all ... but is instead part of an overall "dumbing down" we are seeing where all modules and ships are getting "balanced" to be more and more similar ... presumably to make it "easier" for new players to get into the game. ******** change.
The issue with omni's is the same as with all other drone modules. Apart from the almost non-existent officer DDA and the FNODTL there are no real variations.
Basically we're all flying around with effectively officer level drone gear equipped. Were the drone mods done in the same way as the rest of the mods in game you would have basic omni's, T1 omni's, T2 omnis, faction omni's, deadspace and officer.
To get the uber omni's you would have to pay for them. All this has done is .. nothing... because it didn't address the problem... |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2138
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 01:20:00 -
[344] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Since when was the rattlesnake OP? What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected. Rattlesnake is actually indicative of the capabilities of most sentry platforms, if it isn't OP, it's pretty hard to argue drones are OP. And the armageddon, gilla, nestor, stratios, drone proteus, myrm, eos and anything else with a drone damage bonus and no sentry application bonus I may be forgetting could equally be substituted in the sentence. Sounds like the issue is more, heavy drones are crap so the only large drone is sentries.
The OP part is was having a passive module that gives a 25% bonus to optimal and tracking at the same time. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
988
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 01:39:00 -
[345] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Since when was the rattlesnake OP? What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected. Rattlesnake is actually indicative of the capabilities of most sentry platforms, if it isn't OP, it's pretty hard to argue drones are OP. And the armageddon, gilla, nestor, stratios, drone proteus, myrm, eos and anything else with a drone damage bonus and no sentry application bonus I may be forgetting could equally be substituted in the sentence. Sounds like the issue is more, heavy drones are crap so the only large drone is sentries. The OP part is was having a passive module that gives a 25% bonus to optimal and tracking at the same time. Heavy drones are crap, but that mainly has to do with the limitations and mechanics of non-sentry drones. Heavies, no matter how well balanced, aren't practical long range weapons and as such, can't supplement sentries the way you seem to insinuate they should.
Regarding the mods being OP, fine, I can buy that in itself, though unless the end result was OP I'd expect some counterbalance in the stats of the sentries themselves. Across the line of applicable ships as a whole I don't see them as OP, but we didn't have any counter adjustment at all. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2139
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 03:30:00 -
[346] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Heavy drones are crap, but that mainly has to do with the limitations and mechanics of non-sentry drones. Heavies, no matter how well balanced, aren't practical long range weapons and as such, can't supplement sentries the way you seem to insinuate they should. Not saying that heavies should replace sentries as long range weapons, but then again 20k is not long range for a battleship weapon, but it is long enough to not want to use heavy drones for. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 05:25:00 -
[347] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Heavy drones are crap, but that mainly has to do with the limitations and mechanics of non-sentry drones. Heavies, no matter how well balanced, aren't practical long range weapons and as such, can't supplement sentries the way you seem to insinuate they should. Not saying that heavies should replace sentries as long range weapons, but then again 20k is not long range for a battleship weapon, but it is long enough to not want to use heavy drones for.
One issue is that whilst heavies have their uses - such as blapping structures, or hitting large (BS sized) targets that are really really close to you (as in 5000m close) - when it comes down to it a single flight of heavies takes up the same space as a flight of sentries, two and half flights of mediums or 5 flights of lights, All of the latter are a better use of space.
If heavies were 20m3 bandwidth they may see more use though many people would still see them as suboptimal compared to what else there is to occupy the space.
One alternative that might see more heavy use is allow the mobile depot to facilitate swapping drones between cargo and drone bay. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
638
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 07:34:00 -
[348] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote: One alternative that might see more heavy use is allow the mobile depot to facilitate swapping drones between cargo and drone bay.
That works already.
I'm really very disappointed in how this has been handled by CCP - why bother asking for feedback if you're not even going to so much acknowledge it? Were you so hell bent on destroying drone blob warfare that scorched earth was the way to go? Because honestly that is what it feels like. All the fun sentry boats without bonuses are massively damaged by this.
Still, I suppose heavy missiles will have some company at the back of the cupboard, covered in dust. Every cloud eh? |
DemonX Bane
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Northern Associates.
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 07:42:00 -
[349] - Quote
Lets put it this way. Either I train for skills to improve my sentries (about 3 months in total) or I quit eve until next patch or so. Guess what I will probably do the later as they are seriously ******* up the newbie low-sp Players over. Incase I dont reply on forums. Please send ingame mail. I log in atleast once a day. |
baltoxtdl
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 07:59:00 -
[350] - Quote
so now, rattlesnake in lvl5 mission neuted to the hell and back, can't even turn ON new ODLs, and even load tracking script to get some tracking now. Nice going CCP very nice. Well played CCP |
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
491
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 08:35:00 -
[351] - Quote
Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.
This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Trimmaloth
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 11:38:00 -
[352] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.
This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries.
While Ishtar and Dominix will "still work" as you have stated, all the other drone boats will terribly suffer.
This was not a goddamn sentry issue, it was an Ishtar and Dominix bonus issue. These 2 ships had really unlogical hull range bonuses over the other drone boats.
The other problem i have is, that this change is very poorly implemented. I mean we cannot even tell in space or in hanger what the range or tracking bonus is with these new modules. And this from a game i pay every month for....
And still no response from any Dev so far!
|
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
491
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 12:48:00 -
[353] - Quote
Trimmaloth wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.
This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries. While Ishtar and Dominix will "still work" as you have stated, all the other drone boats will terribly suffer. This was not a goddamn sentry issue, it was an Ishtar and Dominix bonus issue. These 2 ships had really unlogical hull range bonuses over the other drone boats. The other problem i have is, that this change is very poorly implemented. I mean we cannot even tell in space or in hanger what the range or tracking bonus is with these new modules. And this from a game i pay every month for.... And still no response from any Dev so far!
I actually agree with you. I mercilessly exploit the domi and ishtar sentry range bonus every day in w-space PVE because it's logical to do so.
This does not mean I agree with the way these ships were changed.
Tracking bonus for all drones makes sense. Range bonus for sentries turns the dominix into a pirate-battleship-beating point defence system. It feels good to be a domi pilot exploiting this nonsense, but in my guts I know it's bad for the game.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
235
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 12:56:00 -
[354] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Trimmaloth wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.
This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries. While Ishtar and Dominix will "still work" as you have stated, all the other drone boats will terribly suffer. This was not a goddamn sentry issue, it was an Ishtar and Dominix bonus issue. These 2 ships had really unlogical hull range bonuses over the other drone boats. The other problem i have is, that this change is very poorly implemented. I mean we cannot even tell in space or in hanger what the range or tracking bonus is with these new modules. And this from a game i pay every month for.... And still no response from any Dev so far! I actually agree with you. I mercilessly exploit the domi and ishtar sentry range bonus every day in w-space PVE because it's logical to do so. This does not mean I agree with the way these ships were changed. Tracking bonus for all drones makes sense. Range bonus for sentries turns the dominix into a pirate-battleship-beating point defence system. It feels good to be a domi pilot exploiting this nonsense, but in my guts I know it's bad for the game.
Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1225
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:00:00 -
[355] - Quote
Oh noes, my overpowered toys don't work anymore i better quit the game!!!!.
Themepark carebears are really disgusting. The Tears Must Flow |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
491
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:01:00 -
[356] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote: Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Given that we have the ability to slave sentry drones to a SEBO'd FC in a cruiser I'd say that a domi fleet is the fastest way to burn through an opposing fleet of the same size at any range below 140km.
Even 2 domis or ishtars with a TP amongst them are deadly to any HAC within 100km.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
235
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:07:00 -
[357] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Andrea Keuvo wrote: Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Given that we have the ability to slave sentry drones to a SEBO'd FC in a cruiser I'd say that a domi fleet is the fastest way to burn through an opposing fleet of the same size at any range below 140km. Even 2 domis or ishtars with a TP amongst them are deadly to any HAC within 100km.
if they are so OP then trade in your HAC for Domis and a drone bunny cruiser. |
Trimmaloth
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:11:00 -
[358] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Oh noes, my overpowered toys don't work anymore i better quit the game!!!!.
Themepark carebears are really disgusting.
What a productive forum post. You must be really proud of yourself! Well done!
I congratulate you!
|
Lakarin G'Kar
Bolt Hole Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:28:00 -
[359] - Quote
Edmark I wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance.
The concept of balance is a fools endeavour. other MMO's have attempted to "Balance" their games and what did they end up with you ask? A game that was so dumbed down, all the skills were essentially the same for all factions in the game.
If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.
People in this game skill themselves in order to reach a desired result. When the game masters are constantly shifting the post forward and backward, it creates instability. People who play these games are always searching for something that is OP and when the game reaches "balance" in this way, everyone will use the same ship and configuration as soon as and while it remains OP.
Consider this before you stat shifting the goal posts trying to achieve "balance" ccp
|
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1437
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:41:00 -
[360] - Quote
Lakarin G'Kar wrote: The concept of balance is a fools endeavour....
If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.
Have you been living under a rock for the last two years? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
|
Lakarin G'Kar
Bolt Hole Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 13:48:00 -
[361] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Lakarin G'Kar wrote: The concept of balance is a fools endeavour....
If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.
Have you been living under a rock for the last two years?
I am still quite new as far as the game goes, so its quite possible. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1437
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 15:00:00 -
[362] - Quote
Lakarin G'Kar wrote:Batelle wrote:Lakarin G'Kar wrote: The concept of balance is a fools endeavour....
If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.
Have you been living under a rock for the last two years? I am still quite new as far as the game goes, so its quite possible.
They've been doing a full balance pass, ship class by ship class for quite a while now, and its been a resounding success so far, with nearly universally positive feedback. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
493
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 15:27:00 -
[363] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Andrea Keuvo wrote: Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Given that we have the ability to slave sentry drones to a SEBO'd FC in a cruiser I'd say that a domi fleet is the fastest way to burn through an opposing fleet of the same size at any range below 140km. Even 2 domis or ishtars with a TP amongst them are deadly to any HAC within 100km. if they are so OP then trade in your HAC for Domis and a drone bunny cruiser.
I was flying sentry domis before they were cool.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
29
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 17:40:00 -
[364] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Andy Landen wrote:The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.
And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way. That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that. With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin... Well if the current stated intentions of making sentries identical to turrets in DPS/tracking/effectiveness are implemented then no not at all ... sentries will then be the same as turrets. Agreed. Sentries can be killed. No other weapon system matches that. Sentries cannot return to a ship more than 2500m away. All other weapon systems travel with the ship and are protected by the ship. With these changes, it is seeming like we need to have all other systems drop their weapons in space before being able to use them and allowing those weapons to be targeted. Captain: Target the weapons systems. Gunner: Ready to fire, captain. As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's. No other weapon has high slot anti-EWAR and tank modules.
My point being, that if you want to take the fact that drones can be targeted as a weakness, you have to take the fact that there are strengths to them being targeted as well. Your ship isn't taking that damage or EWAR that the drone is. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
640
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 18:08:00 -
[365] - Quote
kurage87 wrote:My point being, that if you want to take the fact that drones can be targeted as a weakness, you have to take the fact that there are strengths to them being targeted as well. Your ship isn't taking that damage or EWAR that the drone is.
Well, to a point. A de-fanged drone boat can then be killed at leisure. It's advantageous to off drones, generally. You can DPS tank their damage.
They're not free "ablative" screening, their loss manifestly hurts the owning ship.
The bigger issue though, is the inability to manage velocities like a 'regular' turret ship can. No amount of manual piloting, none, can help sentries track. This is something constantly overlooked when modules etc are compared to turret ships.
Certainly an argument can be made that they are too binary - they track or do not - and that perhaps, they track too well but that is definitely a wider piece. Additionally, sight cannot be lost of the fact they are immobile. Superior tracking at a cost of being stationary, thus unable to pilot your way to better hits as well as all the other inherent weakness of being stationary, seems a reasonable trade.
The bigger issue is capitals using sentries thus eliminating much of their key weaknesses (immobility and a very finite resource) - that is a hull issue though not a good reason to have a scathing nerf of sentries across the board rendering unbonused boats pretty awful. |
kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
29
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 19:03:00 -
[366] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:kurage87 wrote:My point being, that if you want to take the fact that drones can be targeted as a weakness, you have to take the fact that there are strengths to them being targeted as well. Your ship isn't taking that damage or EWAR that the drone is. Well, to a point. A de-fanged drone boat can then be killed at leisure. It's advantageous to off drones, generally. You can DPS tank their damage. They're not free "ablative" screening, their loss manifestly hurts the owning ship. Of course, but it isn't trivial to kill them either. With proper drone management and replacements it's almost, but not quite, an exercise in futility. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
640
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 19:30:00 -
[367] - Quote
You might find it easier with the shield regen nerf too. They're more likely to come back out damaged. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1442
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 19:45:00 -
[368] - Quote
kurage87 wrote: They're not free "ablative" screening, their loss manifestly hurts the owning ship.
Of course, but it isn't trivial to kill them either. With proper drone management and replacements it's almost, but not quite, an exercise in futility.[/quote]
Futile for carriers, and maybe a bit for those domis that go with 3 sets of sentries. Not so much for nearly ANYTHING else, unless you have a big bay filled with light drones doing piddly damage.
If drones are like ammo as people continue to claim, then t2 drones need to both be both way cheaper and way smaller (smartbomb meta \o/). Then the downsides of being anchored to them won't be such a big deal, and they can be more balanced in performance compared to other weapons that don't have those same downsides. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
115
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 20:21:00 -
[369] - Quote
kurage87 wrote: Of course, but it isn't trivial to kill them either. With proper drone management and replacements it's almost, but not quite, an exercise in futility.
While I agree it is easy to protect your drones, it is not easy to justify doing so from a tactical standpoint. A drone boat with no drones out is applying zero dps and is therefore useless, so what exactly would be the point of keeping the drones alive? Slowcats clearly counter this rule by having essentially limitless drones available for throwing at the enemy. Far different from piloting a subcap drone boat into PVP. Regardless, these changes further challenge the use of drone boats when pre-1.1 they were already difficult (albeit fun) ships to fly in both PVE and PVP situations.
The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1444
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 21:34:00 -
[370] - Quote
Fozzie, this change is significant enough to deserve a devblog. A lot of people feel blindsided, and given that there was no deblog covering any of the Rubicon 1.1 balance changes at all, I think they're justified in feeling that way. Furthermore, to the rest of us that were not blindsided, your original post was all fact, and rather light on analysis. The most analysis we got was a sentence indicating that it was intended to be a nerf (obvious). People (myself) are also worried that this copy&paste job will just be a balance bandaid that will justify allowing the outdated drone interface to limp along for another few years while CCP focuses on other stuff. This is a lot more complicated than "sentries op, nerf omnis, everything is fine."
As of two days ago, more people were using sentries as a primary weapon system than ever before. Please give us a devblog explaining whats going on here. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
|
Mazer Rackahm
Beta Toaster's
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.29 23:58:00 -
[371] - Quote
My two isk: (keep in mind I haven't read all 18 pages as of the time of this post) I got my first look at the changes to omni's today (took forever to patch) Having to use 3 omnis now to get (almost as good) stats as two omnis before... bothersome but okay. Not having skills that increase tracking for drones and then bringing the omnis "in line" with tracking computers... Seems like a problem to me. Not having low slot options like gun boats also a problem. I guess I can sacrifice tank to make my boat usable again at 120k like it was. Yay for nerfs that aren't called nerfs. Whatever. I'm just grumpy. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
237
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 00:02:00 -
[372] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:[quote=kurage87]
Slowcats clearly counter this rule by having essentially limitless drones available for throwing at the enemy.
Well in theory you could have extra sentries on a BS (or more choice of sentries) by deploying a mobile depot and moving drones from your hold to the drone bay (I assume this is possible never tried it) but in practice a mobile depot plus a flight of drones would take up half your cargo bay in one swoop. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
991
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 00:26:00 -
[373] - Quote
I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
237
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 00:59:00 -
[374] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script?
you are correct ... however may have missed the point
I think what might have been said was there is no point at all with old omnis in fitting 5 or more. However with the new omni it may well be worthwhile deploying a mobile depot and swapping out you prop mods for more up to 5 or 6 omni temporarily.
Yes ... the end result of 5 new omni (say 3 range and 2 tracking) will clearly be inferior to 5 (or in fact even 3) of the old omnis.
However that is not the point. We are in a new regime now. Five of the new omni split between two scripts will be far better than just three of the new omni. There is actually some point in fitting 5 omni now whereas 5 omni was a fail-fit previously.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
991
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 02:11:00 -
[375] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script? you are correct ... however may have missed the point I think what might have been said was there is no point at all with old omnis in fitting 5 or more. However with the new omni it may well be worthwhile deploying a mobile depot and swapping out you prop mods for more up to 5 or 6 omni temporarily. Yes ... the end result of 5 new omni (say 3 range and 2 tracking) will clearly be inferior to 5 (or in fact even 3) of the old omnis. However that is not the point. We are in a new regime now. Five of the new omni split between two scripts will be far better than just three of the new omni. There is actually some point in fitting 5 omni now whereas 5 omni was a fail-fit previously. Wut?
I don't follow here. I mean, I follow the actual statements presented, but the conclusion, I'm not sure what the conclusion is. That omni all the mids is the new thing to do? I'm not sure of a single issue that solves or explains though. |
Mazer Rackahm
Beta Toaster's
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 04:03:00 -
[376] - Quote
Yeah numbers are making me grumpy. 5x FN omnis 3x range and 2x tracking gives better tracking and worse optimal than 2x omni II's used to give. 3x range 1x tracking and 1x unscripted gives a 44k optimal where I used to have a 45k and better tracking but that means getting rid of pretty much everything in the mid slots which isn't going to happen. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
239
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 10:10:00 -
[377] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script? you are correct ... however may have missed the point I think what might have been said was there is no point at all with old omnis in fitting 5 or more. However with the new omni it may well be worthwhile deploying a mobile depot and swapping out you prop mods for more up to 5 or 6 omni temporarily. Yes ... the end result of 5 new omni (say 3 range and 2 tracking) will clearly be inferior to 5 (or in fact even 3) of the old omnis. However that is not the point. We are in a new regime now. Five of the new omni split between two scripts will be far better than just three of the new omni. There is actually some point in fitting 5 omni now whereas 5 omni was a fail-fit previously. Wut? I don't follow here. I mean, I follow the actual statements presented, but the conclusion, I'm not sure what the conclusion is. That omni all the mids is the new thing to do? I'm not sure of a single issue that solves or explains though.
Nothing too profound.
Just the simple point that with a Mobile Depot at your disposal you COULD when sniping at range swap in all omnis and it would serve some purpose. Previously fitting all omnis was pointless.
I agree that aside from PvE missions in a sniping Domi you are rarely if ever going to want to do this. |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 10:11:00 -
[378] - Quote
Also quite find it sad that we have to refer to 3rd party tools, to find out the optimals and tracking of our drones. As there is no ingame way to see what the modules add. Not even to the drones while in bay. (Only shows the hull bonus on the drones there). Launched drones show nothing at all - basic stats without skill/hull
Things that need to be addressed. I want to see what happens to my drone out there, when i change my script.
|
Trimmaloth
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 12:24:00 -
[379] - Quote
Hexatron Ormand wrote:Also quite find it sad that we have to refer to 3rd party tools, to find out the optimals and tracking of our drones. As there is no ingame way to see what the modules add. Not even to the drones while in bay. (Only shows the hull bonus on the drones there). Launched drones show nothing at all - basic stats without skill/hull
Things that need to be addressed. I want to see what happens to my drone out there, when i change my script.
I am completely agreed too this. I wouldn't be mad at this change that much, if this would have been adressed. This part is quite outrageous.
Seriously Fozzie, how dare you not answering any of these issues?
|
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 16:29:00 -
[380] - Quote
Trimmaloth wrote:Hexatron Ormand wrote:Also quite find it sad that we have to refer to 3rd party tools, to find out the optimals and tracking of our drones. As there is no ingame way to see what the modules add. Not even to the drones while in bay. (Only shows the hull bonus on the drones there). Launched drones show nothing at all - basic stats without skill/hull
Things that need to be addressed. I want to see what happens to my drone out there, when i change my script.
I am completely agreed too this. I wouldn't be mad at this change that much, if this would have been adressed. This part is quite outrageous. Seriously Fozzie, how dare you not answering any of these issues?
CCP doesn't really care about its customers?
|
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1468
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 17:53:00 -
[381] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote: CCP doesn't really care about its customers?
They're just extremely resistant to do things that are hard. Fixing drones in a competent and comprehensive manner is hard.
Considering they only now are announcing hull repair drones, and the length of the little things thread, they're apparently also extremely resistant to doing things that are easy. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2171
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 18:30:00 -
[382] - Quote
What I find also a joke, a bad bad joke, is if this crap about making modules able to be overheated, then why was the Drone Nav Computer also not nerfed...I mean, changed to a non-passive module, with wrecked..I mean "balanced" stats, to make drone speeds "highly competitive with other weapon systems".
I mean, my god, warriors can go faster than torpedo's.....that will never do.
This was simply a direct attack against the effective DPS of Gardes in non range-bonused hulls, and does nothing to truly impact on the 1000 Domi doctrine. But it sure as hell puts a huge dent in the PvE capabilities of mission runners and anom runners who don't use Ishtars and Domi's. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
245
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 22:29:00 -
[383] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:What I find also a joke, a bad bad joke, is if this crap about making modules able to be overheated, then why was the Drone Nav Computer also not nerfed...I mean, changed to a non-passive module, with wrecked..I mean "balanced" stats, to make drone speeds "highly competitive with other weapon systems".
I mean, my god, warriors can go faster than torpedo's.....that will never do.
Good point, we should make DDAs and DLAs active as well ... keep those evil AFK drone users clicking away that will teach them.
Hey ... here is a thought why limit to drones :S Lets make armor plates and shield extenders active as well. That will give people more stuff to click.
|
NotContinuum
Ars ex Discordia RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.30 22:48:00 -
[384] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:What I find also a joke, a bad bad joke, is if this crap about making modules able to be overheated, then why was the Drone Nav Computer also not nerfed...I mean, changed to a non-passive module, with wrecked..I mean "balanced" stats, to make drone speeds "highly competitive with other weapon systems".
I mean, my god, warriors can go faster than torpedo's.....that will never do.
This was simply a direct attack against the effective DPS of Gardes in non range-bonused hulls, and does nothing to truly impact on the 1000 Domi doctrine. But it sure as hell puts a huge dent in the PvE capabilities of mission runners and anom runners who don't use Ishtars and Domi's.
It's annoying for us with Domis and Ishtars, too. I used warping in at range to help mitigate some of the damage I took. Now, I have to warp in closer. I guess it just slows things down now that I have to use Bouncers or Wardens, which CCP is happier with. I am, though, quite unhappy at how I can't figure out the new optimal range in game. That's quite a stupid mistake to make.
BTW, you know how when you use a tracking computer, you can move your cursor over the module and it will tell you how much the module and its script is improving a trait? Why can't it do that for the omnidirectional link now? |
ashley Eoner
250
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 00:51:00 -
[385] - Quote
NotContinuum wrote:.
BTW, you know how when you use a tracking computer, you can move your cursor over the module and it will tell you how much the module and its script is improving a trait? Why can't it do that for the omnidirectional link now? Because CCP didn't copy paste that part of the code. |
Lea Jane Hemanseh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 12:09:00 -
[386] - Quote
Patch Notes for Rubicon 1.1 31.01.2014 11:21 Patch notes for EVE Online: Rubicon 1.1.3 Released on Wednesday, January 31st 2014
FIXES World Building
Some of the capital wrecks from the colossal battle of B-R5RB have been pulled into a stable low orbit by the gravity of the nearby planet. CONCORD has established a landmark beacon among the wrecks to commemorate the battle, which is now visible to all capsuleers in the B-R5RB system
... CCP directly **** on us players more than normaly... its anoying they just dont fix bugs... someone please say: Allahu Akbar and go blow up your self into CCP office... |
Novah Soul
79
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 12:23:00 -
[387] - Quote
Lea Jane Hemanseh wrote:
someone please say: Allahu Akbar and go blow up your self into CCP office... or maybe Breivik could do some bonus points there...
Wow.. hmm... that's a bit... excessive....... |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
498
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 12:24:00 -
[388] - Quote
NotContinuum wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:What I find also a joke, a bad bad joke, is if this crap about making modules able to be overheated, then why was the Drone Nav Computer also not nerfed...I mean, changed to a non-passive module, with wrecked..I mean "balanced" stats, to make drone speeds "highly competitive with other weapon systems".
I mean, my god, warriors can go faster than torpedo's.....that will never do.
This was simply a direct attack against the effective DPS of Gardes in non range-bonused hulls, and does nothing to truly impact on the 1000 Domi doctrine. But it sure as hell puts a huge dent in the PvE capabilities of mission runners and anom runners who don't use Ishtars and Domi's. It's annoying for us with Domis and Ishtars, too. I used warping in at range to help mitigate some of the damage I took. Now, I have to warp in closer. I guess it just slows things down now that I have to use Bouncers or Wardens, which CCP is happier with. I am, though, quite unhappy at how I can't figure out the new optimal range in game. That's quite a stupid mistake to make. BTW, you know how when you use a tracking computer, you can move your cursor over the module and it will tell you how much the module and its script is improving a trait? Why can't it do that for the omnidirectional link now?
PVE domi?
use garde IIs, 2 omnidirectional tracking computers (range), 2 cap rechargers, 1 MWD, 1 DCII, 2 EANMs (1 if you have fleet boosts), 1 reactive armour hardener, 2 drone damage augmenters, 1 large armour repper, 5 250mm railguns (T2 ammo) and a drone link augmenter. Fit cap, nano pump or drone damage rigs as you prefer. When you have fleet boosts replace 1 eanm with a drone damage augmenter.
carry some ogres to kill frigates (switch the omnis to tracking).
you can now kill everything with max dps from 0 to 70km.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
|
Waitingpls wtf
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 14:52:00 -
[389] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Kadesh Priestess wrote:Will ship bonus to sentry range apply to falloff as well? No, although there will always be the option of adding drone falloff bonuses to ships/rigs/other modules in the future.
CCP,
sorry, but you decreased omnidirectional module efficiency above 50%.
What ever scripts we apply the fact is 50% reduction. (why so drastically? I think above 15-25% decrease would be better)
I have a problem to hit a cruiser on rattlesnake at 5.8km in angular 0.033 with Garde II (+ 3x omni II with tracking script!!!).
And you ruined federation navy omnidirectional link totally. 53 mil is not worth 1% difference between tech II module ( 1mil cost on market. )
I think you have to change at least stats for tracking and optimal on sentries to compensate 50% loss in efficiency. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1491
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 16:07:00 -
[390] - Quote
Waitingpls wtf wrote: And you ruined federation navy omnidirectional link totally. 53 mil is not worth 1% difference between tech II module ( 1mil cost on market. )
Just to point out, the reason faction tracking computers are expensive is because they're good on dreads/titans. So yeah, these things are now worthless. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
|
MarekCZE
The Chosen 0nes Mildly Sober
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 16:22:00 -
[391] - Quote
Waitingpls wtf wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Kadesh Priestess wrote:Will ship bonus to sentry range apply to falloff as well? No, although there will always be the option of adding drone falloff bonuses to ships/rigs/other modules in the future. CCP, sorry, but you decreased omnidirectional module efficiency above 50%. What ever scripts we apply the fact is 50% reduction. (why so drastically? I think above 15-25% decrease would be better) I have a problem to hit a cruiser on rattlesnake at 5.8km in angular 0.033 with Garde II (+ 3x omni II with tracking script!!!). And you ruined federation navy omnidirectional link totally. 53 mil is not worth 1% difference between tech II module ( 1mil cost on market. ) I think you have to change at least stats for tracking and optimal on sentries to compensate 50% loss in efficiency.
I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game... |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
156
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 16:31:00 -
[392] - Quote
MarekCZE wrote: I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game...
OMG my omnis are nerfed, they don't work at all now in PvE because I have to get 10km closer..WTFBBQ seriously bash the developer to death.
adapt or perish. either is fine. |
Ace Echo
The Shadow Raiders Fleet Coordination Coalition
50
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 16:48:00 -
[393] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:MarekCZE wrote: I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game...
OMG my omnis are nerfed, they don't work at all now in PvE because I have to get 10km closer..WTFBBQ seriously bash the developer to death. adapt or perish. either is fine.
THIS so hard. The omni change nerfed 25% of my range and 25% of my tracking, forcing me from 180km to 130km. And, you know what, I'll be f***ing fine. I still have better projected DPS than some marauders in my t1 BS.
However, what I AM a bit confused about is the relatively heavy nerf to FedNav Omnis. Right now they only give a 1% opt and 2% falloff bonus when scripted over t2. They do give an extra 5% tracking over t2 when scripted for that. Why can't we have a better optimal boost on the FedNavs, considering tracking was what most people were claiming was OP about sentries in the first place? |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
249
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 18:05:00 -
[394] - Quote
Ace Echo wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:MarekCZE wrote: I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game...
OMG my omnis are nerfed, they don't work at all now in PvE because I have to get 10km closer..WTFBBQ seriously bash the developer to death. adapt or perish. either is fine. THIS so hard. The omni change nerfed 25% of my range and 25% of my tracking, forcing me from 180km to 130km. And, you know what, I'll be f***ing fine. I still have better projected DPS than some marauders in my t1 BS. However, what I AM a bit confused about is the relatively heavy nerf to FedNav Omnis. Right now they only give a 1% opt and 2% falloff bonus when scripted over t2. They do give an extra 5% tracking over t2 when scripted for that. Why can't we have a better optimal boost on the FedNavs, considering tracking was what most people were claiming was OP about sentries in the first place?
I haven't checked this to be sure but my guess is the faction gun tracking mods Fozzie copied the stats from are 1%/2% better than T2. |
Ace Echo
The Shadow Raiders Fleet Coordination Coalition
50
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 20:39:00 -
[395] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote:Ace Echo wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:MarekCZE wrote: I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game...
OMG my omnis are nerfed, they don't work at all now in PvE because I have to get 10km closer..WTFBBQ seriously bash the developer to death. adapt or perish. either is fine. THIS so hard. The omni change nerfed 25% of my range and 25% of my tracking, forcing me from 180km to 130km. And, you know what, I'll be f***ing fine. I still have better projected DPS than some marauders in my t1 BS. However, what I AM a bit confused about is the relatively heavy nerf to FedNav Omnis. Right now they only give a 1% opt and 2% falloff bonus when scripted over t2. They do give an extra 5% tracking over t2 when scripted for that. Why can't we have a better optimal boost on the FedNavs, considering tracking was what most people were claiming was OP about sentries in the first place? I haven't checked this to be sure but my guess is the faction gun tracking mods Fozzie copied the stats from are 1%/2% better than T2.
Hm, perhaps. And I could agree with that, yet I'm on some level thinking that sentries might be a bit more deserving of a range boost due to their oft-snipey nature.
Anyhoo, I do like these changes, and I was directly impacted by them to the fullest negative extent that a person could receive. However, I did feel sentries had quite an upper hand, so I'm accepting this sacrifice in the interests of the health of a game. I wish everyone else could too -.- |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2856
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 21:45:00 -
[396] - Quote
Are the tracking links still bugged? ie: drones don't show the modified range. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
815
|
Posted - 2014.01.31 23:06:00 -
[397] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it.
The rules: 30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
ashley Eoner
250
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 08:41:00 -
[398] - Quote
Andrea Keuvo wrote:Ace Echo wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:MarekCZE wrote: I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game...
OMG my omnis are nerfed, they don't work at all now in PvE because I have to get 10km closer..WTFBBQ seriously bash the developer to death. adapt or perish. either is fine. THIS so hard. The omni change nerfed 25% of my range and 25% of my tracking, forcing me from 180km to 130km. And, you know what, I'll be f***ing fine. I still have better projected DPS than some marauders in my t1 BS. However, what I AM a bit confused about is the relatively heavy nerf to FedNav Omnis. Right now they only give a 1% opt and 2% falloff bonus when scripted over t2. They do give an extra 5% tracking over t2 when scripted for that. Why can't we have a better optimal boost on the FedNavs, considering tracking was what most people were claiming was OP about sentries in the first place? I haven't checked this to be sure but my guess is the faction gun tracking mods Fozzie copied the stats from are 1%/2% better than T2. Yeah he just copy pasted faction tracking computer. My federation omnilinks are loltastic and I'm sad I was unable to dump them on the market before people realize the change was coming :(
Your T1 BS is obviously a dominix and that ship is an exception as it has an OP level hull bonus.
|
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1515
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 10:59:00 -
[399] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: Your T1 BS is obviously a dominix and that ship is an exception as it has an OP level hull bonus.
Oh god my face when the dominix was originally rebalanced with a 10% bonus.
And lol, when they reduced it to ONLY a 7.5% bonus after it murdered people in the Alliance Tournament.
Then they smack omnis instead. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Shing Thsu
hirr RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 11:41:00 -
[400] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I expect this will be the long thread Hello again! This thread will cover the overhaul to Omnidirectional Tracking Links that we are planning for Rubicon 1.1 in conjunction with the Overheating Iterations. I advise reading the Heat Iterations post before this one. TL:DR is that we are making Omnidirectional Tracking Links work like Tracking Computers. They will become active modules that can be scripted and overheated, and their bonuses will be as strong as equivalent Tracking Computers.The fact that this decreases the overall power of Omnis (especially for gaining optimal range) is intended. Sentry drones are obviously one of the more discussed weapon systems in the EVE community right now. This is not the only change we will ever make to drone mechanics, but it is a change we believe will improve the game balance. Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules. The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range. Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements. The Omnis will keep their same fitting requirements (a bit higher than TCs), will have a 10s duration, and will enjoy significantly lower cap use (4 cap per activation) compared to Tracking Computers. They will use exactly the same scripts as Tracking Computers and Remote Tracking Computers. We believe that with these changes Sentry Drones will still be very viable and popular weapon systems, and that the results will be a better set of choices for players to make when fitting and flying. As I said above, these are not the only changes that we will ever make to Sentry Drones, so to assume that this means we won't be willing to touch them again sometime in the future would be a mistake. These changes will be live on SISI very soon for your testing, and we as always thank you in advance for your constructive and useful feedback. Thanks!
well are those thing working btw, i clicked info on my sentries and it doesnt matter what kind of scrip was in and if it was active or off, they had still same tracking/optimal/falloff ?! For all grammar n.a.z.i and likes n.a.z.i one word: nasra+Ñ ! |
|
Internetowy Krzyzowiec
Virtual Democracy DARKNESS.
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 17:08:00 -
[401] - Quote
almost 20 pages of well-written posts, a week of discussion and not one dev response? CCP has forsaken you, capsuleers
also, please stop hurting everybody just because your hardware cant handle your own game and dont release broken content. it took me half an hour to figure the approximate effective ranges of sentries with the new modules because their display is just not working |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1412
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 23:58:00 -
[402] - Quote
This change just made missions more tedious for drone users.
Not only do you have to fight the clunky drone interface, now you need to fight your omnis with the tedious "right click" user interface better suited for spreadsheets, not video game combat.
The concept behind overheating and scripts is good, but the UI completely ruins it. Ideally you're watching the in-game gfx and fighting other ships, not starting at and fighting your UI nonstop. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
KickAss Tivianne
Culdesac Industries
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.02 18:03:00 -
[403] - Quote
With a 10 second activation time, it does not auto repeat. It is a pain to constantly having to turn it on during the fight. Wish that alone would be changed. |
Vesan Terakol
Sad Face Enterprises
35
|
Posted - 2014.02.02 18:27:00 -
[404] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:With a 10 second activation time, it does not auto repeat. It is a pain to constantly having to turn it on during the fight. Wish that alone would be changed.
That was a weird thing to find out myself - As an active module, you can toggle auto-repeat on and off. What is weird is that the default setting is off. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
264
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 00:57:00 -
[405] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Andrea Keuvo wrote:Ace Echo wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote:MarekCZE wrote: I have 3 in ship and its worst than ratting in dreadnought... i think they even dont work... somebody should bash up Fozzie to death... seriously and his boss too... i realy sometimes wonder where CCP hiring people who can devolution game...
OMG my omnis are nerfed, they don't work at all now in PvE because I have to get 10km closer..WTFBBQ seriously bash the developer to death. adapt or perish. either is fine. THIS so hard. The omni change nerfed 25% of my range and 25% of my tracking, forcing me from 180km to 130km. And, you know what, I'll be f***ing fine. I still have better projected DPS than some marauders in my t1 BS. However, what I AM a bit confused about is the relatively heavy nerf to FedNav Omnis. Right now they only give a 1% opt and 2% falloff bonus when scripted over t2. They do give an extra 5% tracking over t2 when scripted for that. Why can't we have a better optimal boost on the FedNavs, considering tracking was what most people were claiming was OP about sentries in the first place? I haven't checked this to be sure but my guess is the faction gun tracking mods Fozzie copied the stats from are 1%/2% better than T2. Yeah he just copy pasted faction tracking computer. My federation omnilinks are loltastic and I'm sad I was unable to dump them on the market before people realize the change was coming :( Your T1 BS is obviously a dominix and that ship is an exception as it has an OP level hull bonus.
The whole copy and paste thing is ridiculous anyway, why on earth would anyone assume "balanced" figures for gun tracking would automatically be balanced for sentry drones? Two entirely different weapon systems, used in totally different ways. |
John Ratcliffe
Sarumans Hand
267
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 15:34:00 -
[406] - Quote
I really dislike the changes, but I've adapted so I'll live. Miss the 70KM range on my Gardes though - made PVE a breeze :( Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |
Ace Echo
The Shadow Raiders Fleet Coordination Coalition
52
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 16:18:00 -
[407] - Quote
KickAss Tivianne wrote:With a 10 second activation time, it does not auto repeat. It is a pain to constantly having to turn it on during the fight. Wish that alone would be changed.
There's a configurable setting for auto-repeat, and for some reason Omnis default to off. Just right-click your module, and turn Auto-Repeat on. |
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 16:45:00 -
[408] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:I really dislike the changes, but I've adapted so I'll live. Miss the 70KM range on my Gardes though - made PVE a breeze :( On the domi with 3 OTL2 optimal range has dropped from 70 to 60, but the falloff range is up to 90 or 100. To the domi it is just a few minor adjustments. "Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you." |
Waitingpls wtf
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 19:52:00 -
[409] - Quote
CCP you would like to balance guns and sentries?
Sentries are static, can't shoot when ship move ( you have to scope them and if so you can't shoot with them or you don't scope them and you lose them)
- no skills for tracking in comparing turrets - no skills for falloff in comparing turrets - no skill for rate of fire in comparing turrets - no invulnerability to damage as normal turrets
|
KickAss Tivianne
Culdesac Industries
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.03 21:11:00 -
[410] - Quote
Ace Echo wrote:KickAss Tivianne wrote:With a 10 second activation time, it does not auto repeat. It is a pain to constantly having to turn it on during the fight. Wish that alone would be changed. There's a configurable setting for auto-repeat, and for some reason Omnis default to off. Just right-click your module, and turn Auto-Repeat on.
Ah yes... I saw it on there as "Set Auto repeat on", thinking that it was on.. but it was really a question... Derp.
Thanks! |
|
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1564
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 16:12:00 -
[411] - Quote
Its time for a drone dev blog. Both to address the future of drones, and the recent changes that were offered up in Rubicon 1.1 with no explanation.
This is the kind of communications breakdown that CCP has repeatedly promised in recent years to eliminate. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mazer Rackahm
Beta Toaster's
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 19:39:00 -
[412] - Quote
It almost feels like I have to downgrade hulls to the domi just to maintain range. I love my Rattlesnake so I will never do that (downgrade) Adapt or perish someone said a few posts ago. I think I hear other games calling my name. Couldn't have put it any better myself @Waitingpls wtf |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9161
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 20:19:00 -
[413] - Quote
Hey everyone.
I want to officially clarify that the fact that drone attributes are not properly displaying in show info is a bug and that your Omnis are in fact applying their bonuses correctly. The issue with show info is a long standing bug that has to do with the way the client displays attributes on items that aren't your ship (or directly fitted to your ship). We're looking into getting it fixed, but it's not a simple issue.
As for the discussion on the strength of Sentry drones after this change, I will reiterate what I've said before. We don't want to make Sentries just like other weapons, the fact that they are very distinct with their own strengths, weaknesses and tactics is part of what makes them valuable to the game. We do always want to ensure that they have excellent strengths to make up for their special weaknesses. But the honest truth is that Sentries were too good relative to other comparable weapons. Their damage envelope (the combination of range, damage and tracking) is very good and was one of several contributing factors that were leading to Sentries becoming overly dominant in almost all areas of EVE. Like I said in the original post, the fact that these changes reduce the power of Omnis is completely intentional. Nerfing the base stats of sentries while leaving the incredibly effective Omnis was not going to be the best way to approach the issue, as that would leave us in a place where Sentries would have been underpowered when no Omnis are fitted and overpowered when people stack lots of them. We totally understand that bringing Omnidirectionals in line was a bitter pill to swallow for people who use Sentries a lot, but we are confident that the game is in a better place with these changes then it would be without them.
There are obviously lots of other changes we need to make to drones and the ships that use them, but the best way to approach these kinds of issues is in an iterative manner, making focused changes and watching the results carefully.
We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
stoicfaux
4007
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 20:48:00 -
[414] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment. Change the missile range bonus to a RoF bonus, add a 5th launcher, maybe one more high slot, and top it off by adding a few mini Raven wings to the Rattlesnake model and call it a day. You can send the check to...
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1705
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 21:45:00 -
[415] - Quote
speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
198
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 22:37:00 -
[416] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: But the honest truth is that Sentries were too good relative to other comparable weapons. Their damage envelope (the combination of range, damage and tracking) is very good and was one of several contributing factors that were leading to Sentries becoming overly dominant in almost all areas of EVE. Like I said in the original post, the fact that these changes reduce the power of Omnis is completely intentional.
It's good that you guys are still looking at sentry drones from this angle. I can't imagine that you guys would actually see things this way, but just to be perfectly clear: I would caution to not conflate the ending of the Halloween war as calling the sentry "issue" resolved. The drawdown currently occurring in the South isn't because sentry drones fell "out of favor" due to the Omnidirectional Tracking Link change, it's because the power of sentry drones was so great that the only escalation option left to defeat massed sentry carriers supported by un-"EWAR"able supercarriers was to doomsday them off the face of the galaxy. Makes for good press, sure, but now that the press potential has been spent, I feel it's a great time to visit the sentry drones themselves again, or perhaps the carriers that use them, lest the entirety of the subcapital ship line be marginalized and a mandatory one year training time becomes the norm for entering nullsec. (The Character Bazaar will run out of pilots eventually.)
Or, to put it another way, even though my faction "won" against massed sentry drone doctrines using a non-sentry-drone counter, it's still a good idea to keep on trucking with this change. Eve will be better for it. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9161
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 22:55:00 -
[417] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide.
"Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Novah Soul
82
|
Posted - 2014.02.04 23:11:00 -
[418] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always. Is there an ETA on when the pirate hulls will gone over? I assume it will be on a class-by-class basis (frig -> cruiser -> BS) rather then a full overhaul at the same time. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
46
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 01:15:00 -
[419] - Quote
looking forward to see the drone skills + attributes overhaul~ |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
672
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 01:27:00 -
[420] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment.
Maybe this is a hint that they will give the RS the same bonus as the Domi?
Any comment about maybe sentry drones are OP because of the drone assist mechanics and not actually tracking links? Meaning a fast locking ship with a whole bunch of sentry drones assisted to it can insta pop anything subcap off the field. That might be the reasn they are so popular |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
672
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 01:34:00 -
[421] - Quote
MuraSaki Siki wrote:looking forward to see the drone skills + attributes overhaul~ You want this or did someone at CCP say this is going to happen? Sorry if I missed a post.
I would love it if they made they drone AI a bit smarter like the NPC AI. For example light drones on aggressive would attack frigates over battleships. Also when "Focus Fire" is check all 5 drones attack a single target. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
269
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 02:49:00 -
[422] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment.
You think ??
BPC sell ... as at 5 minutes ago, there are several on contract in Jita at 228 million. Mat cost ... (Jita Buy @ MP 5) 146 million.
So the build cost of a Rattlesnake is currently 374 million. (actually a nice margin in making them except they may never sell and you could get stuck with them)
The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
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poppeteer
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 04:30:00 -
[423] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone.
I want to officially clarify that the fact that drone attributes are not properly displaying in show info is a bug and that your Omnis are in fact applying their bonuses correctly. The issue with show info is a long standing bug that has to do with the way the client displays attributes on items that aren't your ship (or directly fitted to your ship). We're looking into getting it fixed, but it's not a simple issue.
Can you expand a bit here Fozzie? Prior to the patch show info on drones in certain use cases worked just fine. Is this a case of having to break what existed further, so as to lay the groundwork to iterate on? Or did it just get completely broken? |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
73
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 05:42:00 -
[424] - Quote
Novah Soul wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always. Is there an ETA on when the pirate hulls will gone over? I assume it will be on a class-by-class basis (frig -> cruiser -> BS) rather then a full overhaul at the same time. ^^^This |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
723
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 09:15:00 -
[425] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always.
Indeed, but iirc, Tiericide also concerns modules.
Currently from meta 0 to meta 4, everyone uses meta 4s unless they are too expensive.
Why not take modules class-by-class, classify from the most valuable to the least valuable the modules' parameters and then make all 4 meta level interesting ?
Why are T2 MWDs still that bad ? Why are T2 webs not really worth fitting ? Etc
There are a lot of modules that we never use because of their useless-ness. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
369
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 09:45:00 -
[426] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
Nah, just drop the missile projection bonus for an Optimal and Tracking bonus |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
635
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 10:06:00 -
[427] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment.
You think ?? BPC sell ... as at 5 minutes ago, there are several on contract in Jita at 228 million. Mat cost ... (Jita Buy @ MP 5) 146 million. So the build cost of a Rattlesnake is currently 374 million. (actually a nice margin in making them except they may never sell and you could get stuck with them) The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
no that would just homogenize ships even more gallente should be the only drones ships with application bonuses as they are the drone masters ... guristas should take a more 50/50 damage approach of drones and missiles Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
412
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 12:42:00 -
[428] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always.
So Black Ops, Heavy Dictors, EWAR Force and Combat Recons, T3's, (which is its own tier), carriers and supercaps...
oooook..........
I guess the T3 changes never come, the Recon adjustments not happening, Heavy Dictor's no bueno?
Carriers and Supers also... Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
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Laiannah Sahireen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 13:31:00 -
[429] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always. So Black Ops, Heavy Dictors, EWAR Force and Combat Recons, T3's, (which is its own tier), carriers and supercaps... oooook.......... I guess the T3 changes never come, the Recon adjustments not happening, Heavy Dictor's no bueno? Carriers and Supers also...
Do you even know what Tiericide is/was?
Tiers were the levels *within* a certain class of ship that made some better than others, e.g. Tier 1: Cyclone Tier 2: Hurricane Tier 3: Tornado
The higher 'tier' ships within a class generally cost more and were intended to be 'stronger' than the lower tiers.
Tiericide did away with all that and made each ship within a class unique and worthwhile in its own right.
There are no 'tiers' within Blackops and Force Recons, because there is only one for each race. This is why they come under regular rebalancing.
CCP has already said that these rebalancing passes are coming soon. I hear that pirate ships and recons are going to be near the top of the list.
But y'know, good job on posting without actually knowing what you were talking about. |
Phoenix Jones
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
412
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 15:39:00 -
[430] - Quote
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always. So Black Ops, Heavy Dictors, EWAR Force and Combat Recons, T3's, (which is its own tier), carriers and supercaps... oooook.......... I guess the T3 changes never come, the Recon adjustments not happening, Heavy Dictor's no bueno? Carriers and Supers also... Do you even know what Tiericide is/was? Tiers were the levels *within* a certain class of ship that made some better than others, e.g. Tier 1: Cyclone Tier 2: Hurricane Tier 3: Tornado The higher 'tier' ships within a class generally cost more and were intended to be 'stronger' than the lower tiers. Tiericide did away with all that and made each ship within a class unique and worthwhile in its own right. There are no 'tiers' within Blackops and Force Recons, because there is only one for each race. This is why they come under regular rebalancing. CCP has already said that these rebalancing passes are coming soon. I hear that pirate ships and recons are going to be near the top of the list. But y'know, good job on posting without actually knowing what you were talking about.
Thank you, Thank you very much. I feel so proud to have such loving attention :-)
I'm almost going to cry... sniff.
People saw Tiericide as the great rebalance of all ships. By saying they've ended it, lets them off the hook for rebalancing the rest of those ships that haven't been touched. It also allows them to basically disregard or dismiss the release of any new tier based boats.
Will they eventually touch these ships, we all hope so.
For them to announce the ending of the initiative would worry people. While the argument can be made, people (as a whole) fear that ship rebalancing is over for the near future. While CCP says balancing will continue, this was probably the first rebalancing concept that had an actual assigned name to it (which produced results).
We'll see though
But back on topic. Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9163
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 16:33:00 -
[431] - Quote
We will touch every ship, and we will continue adjusting every ship over and over again.
Balancing isn't a project with an end. Tiericide was a specific subgoal within the balancing project that we finished last summer.
None of this is new information, we've said it before and we'll say it again. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8921
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 16:58:00 -
[432] - Quote
Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. My EVE Videos 59-15 |
Gynax Gallenor
Conquering Darkness
5
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:02:00 -
[433] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote: People saw Tiericide as the great rebalance of all ships. By saying they've ended it, lets them off the hook for rebalancing the rest of those ships that haven't been touched. It also allows them to basically disregard or dismiss the release of any new tier based boats.
I don't think they are looking to get off the hook for anything. In fact, they are constantly repeating that rebalancing will never end.
Like Fozzie has said, Tiericide was a very specific project within the greater task of balancing, removing the concept of a 'tier' within a ship class.
If people are confusing the two terms, that is unfortunate but harmless.
However, interpreting the statement "Tiericide is over" as meaning "No more rebalanced ships for you" strikes me as people just looking for a reason to get mad, and not actually doing a cursory bit of research before going off on one.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9163
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Posted - 2014.02.05 17:36:00 -
[434] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release.
We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1708
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:42:00 -
[435] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:MeBiatch wrote:speaking of the snake when till tiericide come back? it seems all we got for 1.1 was a new ship and metacide. "Tiericide" is over, as there are no more ship tiers left in EVE. Overall ship balance work will continue as always.
oh? I thought that the rest of tech II and Tech III and pirate faction ships were all part of the "tiericide" thing.
IN that case Tiericide was over once you hit tech I battleships. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
31
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:43:00 -
[436] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1.
Obligatory Meme
Keep up the good work Fozzie |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1708
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:46:00 -
[437] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We will touch every ship, and we will continue adjusting every ship over and over again.
Balancing isn't a project with an end. Tiericide was a specific subgoal within the balancing project that we finished last summer.
None of this is new information, we've said it before and we'll say it again.
well i have always claimed the communication was CCP strong suite. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1708
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 17:48:00 -
[438] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1.
so polishing passes...
so we should not expect radical changes to any tech II ships or pirate faction ships...
tbh that was some fun over the year helping you guys come up with ideas to fix stuff...
just sad its over is all. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5752
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 18:02:00 -
[439] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1.
Do we have a general timeline for Black Ops, pirate ships, or any plans for pirate/faction destroyers or pirate battlecruisers?
And any new T2 or T3 ships, of course. ;)
Basically, the question is: what's on your plate for Rubicon 1.2? Priano Trans-Stellar is recruiting! Interested in nullsec combat? Research? Exploration? Contact Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
822
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 18:23:00 -
[440] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1. I think he was referring to ship balance changes. We didn't see changes to ships, and that draws more attention than adding heat to things and nerfing drones.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
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Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
33
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Posted - 2014.02.05 19:15:00 -
[441] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1. so polishing passes... so we should not expect radical changes to any tech II ships or pirate faction ships... tbh that was some fun over the year helping you guys come up with ideas to fix stuff... just sad its over is all.
Ask the marauders and the interceptors (EDIT: or the interdictors, or the heavy assault cruisers, or the command ships...) if no radical changes are coming to any tech II ships. Tiericide is over because the only ships that had tiers, i.e. tech I ships, have had those tiers removed. Rebalance of the remaining tech II-III ships and, eventually, capitals will continue, but those have no tiers to, uh, murder. |
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
76
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 20:04:00 -
[442] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We will touch every ship, and we will continue adjusting every ship over and over again.
Dirty..... Keep up the good work - my impatience is getting the better of me, them pirate ships need some love and I can't wait to see what you guys do with them.
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1708
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 20:08:00 -
[443] - Quote
Divi Filus wrote:MeBiatch wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1. so polishing passes... so we should not expect radical changes to any tech II ships or pirate faction ships... tbh that was some fun over the year helping you guys come up with ideas to fix stuff... just sad its over is all. Ask the marauders and the interceptors (EDIT: or the interdictors, or the heavy assault cruisers, or the command ships...) if no radical changes are coming to any tech II ships. Tiericide is over because the only ships that had tiers, i.e. tech I ships, have had those tiers removed. Rebalance of the remaining tech II-III ships and, eventually, capitals will continue, but those have no tiers to, uh, murder.
I had confused the terminology. I used tiericide as a blanket term for the once over on ever ship in game. Hense why I was confused
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
JD No7
V I R I I Ineluctable.
88
|
Posted - 2014.02.05 23:20:00 -
[444] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1.
Fozzie, when can we expect Recons rebalancing please? |
EndersChild
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
15
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 09:01:00 -
[445] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
Nah, just drop the missile projection bonus for an Optimal and Tracking bonus
Disagree with losing the drone damage bonus, but agree with dropping the launcher one. Split weapon system bonuses suck when trying to slot increase both. The total damage bonus of 50%, 75% and 125% the Machariel, Vindicator and Nightmare achieve respectively means the RS is way behind. Make it an improved shield drone platform
Special Ability: 25% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
4% shield resistance per level
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage per skill level 10% bonus to Drone optimal range per skill level
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seth Hendar
I love you miners
432
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Posted - 2014.02.06 09:33:00 -
[446] - Quote
EndersChild wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
Nah, just drop the missile projection bonus for an Optimal and Tracking bonus Disagree with losing the drone damage bonus, but agree with dropping the launcher one. Split weapon system bonuses suck when trying to slot increase both. The total damage bonus of 50%, 75% and 125% the Machariel, Vindicator and Nightmare achieve respectively means the RS is way behind. Make it an improved shield drone platform Special Ability: 25% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 4% shield resistance per level Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage per skill level 10% bonus to Drone optimal range per skill level you are going too heavy on the drone bonus.
a 25%, then a 50% then all those free DDA on a shield BS.......
yeah, sure, not OP at ALL
Special ability: 25% tracking for heavy / sentry, then keep all the rest of the bonuses, then it's OK |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1069
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Posted - 2014.02.06 10:11:00 -
[447] - Quote
Look at total effective number of turrets/drones. Not how big the bonus is. I.E. Nightmares get a large bonus because they only start with 4 turrets. Vindi's start with more, so their bonus adds up to more effective turrets at the end of it all. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9167
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Posted - 2014.02.06 10:43:00 -
[448] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1. Do we have a general timeline for Black Ops, pirate ships, or any plans for pirate/faction destroyers or pirate battlecruisers? And any new T2 or T3 ships, of course. ;) Basically, the question is: what's on your plate for Rubicon 1.2?
JD No7 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Well I was rather disappointed that there were no balance changes for this point release. We made balance changes to interceptors, drones, and a whole heap of modules in 1.1. Fozzie, when can we expect Recons rebalancing please?
As always, we'll be announcing the upcoming balancing projects and looking for feedback as soon as they're ready. In the meantime we can't really give timelines or estimates in public. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
510
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Posted - 2014.02.06 10:56:00 -
[449] - Quote
Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread.
I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC.
Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team?
If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful.
To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems.
Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch?
I would be most interested in your considered reply.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
636
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Posted - 2014.02.06 14:13:00 -
[450] - Quote
we need recons, pirates and T3's rebalanced ASAP and the upcoming sentry nerf and drone assist removal.... sentries outdo any long range weapon system by a mile .. tracking of medium LR guns damage of medium SR weapons at least on the useful ones.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9167
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Posted - 2014.02.06 14:17:00 -
[451] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply.
I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
673
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Posted - 2014.02.06 14:19:00 -
[452] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful.
I too would like to hear about this. Having this feature pretty much allows the FC to instantly control everyone's main weapon in the fleet, thus allowing massive volley damage from a ship that can instalock. Even with the 1.1 tracking link nerf this is OP.
Initially I was upset about the TL nerf but TBH I took another look and for the Domi it just means I had to change from Gardes to Bouncers. If they gave the RS the same bonuses as the Domi I think ti would work okay.
Edit:... Fozzie responded before I could finish typing my post |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
510
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Posted - 2014.02.06 15:11:00 -
[453] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply. I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries.
Would you be so kind as to list the dev team's view of the balance problem with sentries, in order of seriousness?
I am somewhat surprised that you do not share the view that this is their single most powerful feature. If there are other more pressing problems with them it would please me to be enlightened. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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EndersChild
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
15
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Posted - 2014.02.06 15:44:00 -
[454] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:you are going too heavy on the drone bonus.
a 25%, then a 50% then all those free DDA on a shield BS.......
yeah, sure, not OP at ALL
Special ability: 25% tracking for heavy / sentry, then keep all the rest of the bonuses, then it's OK
Fit all 4 ships with drones and T2 weapons with 4 x T2 damage mods on each and the RS is the poorest DPS, and this is with torps which will need the mid slots to get any application. You can also faction the other 3 ships damage mods, not as yet an option on the RS except with a BCS over DDAGÇÖs. Of course range isnGÇÖt being factored, but as far as a raw DPS number, it would be far from OP
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8934
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Posted - 2014.02.07 07:38:00 -
[455] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply. I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries. Would you be so kind as to list the dev team's view of the balance problem with sentries, in order of seriousness? I am somewhat surprised that you do not share the view that this is their single most powerful feature. You should probably read it again because he said nothing of the sort. My EVE Videos 59-15 |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
166
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 07:53:00 -
[456] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You should probably read it again because he said nothing of the sort. That's what he said. |
Layla Firoue
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 10:29:00 -
[457] - Quote
EndersChild wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The Rattler actually needs the Domi/Ishtar tracking and optimal bonuses, even if it loses the drone damage bonus to get them.
Nah, just drop the missile projection bonus for an Optimal and Tracking bonus Disagree with losing the drone damage bonus, but agree with dropping the launcher one. Split weapon system bonuses suck when trying to slot increase both. The total damage bonus of 50%, 75% and 125% the Machariel, Vindicator and Nightmare achieve respectively means the RS is way behind. Make it an improved shield drone platform Special Ability: 25% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 4% shield resistance per level Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage per skill level 10% bonus to Drone optimal range per skill level
Ahaha 75% drone damage PLUS 50% optimal bonus LMAO are you completely out of your mind ?? |
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Deep Space BORG Alliance
44
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Posted - 2014.02.07 14:26:00 -
[458] - Quote
Now this posting got unstickied, and there is no word yet if there will be any work done on the UI to actually display the information on active drones, or even those in the bay.
You cannot see how changing scripts or active modules change the drone stats - while it is common to get all those informations on your turrets.
Any words on this? Is there any work done to get those informations out to the drone users? |
Ace Echo
The Shadow Raiders Fleet Coordination Coalition
54
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Posted - 2014.02.07 16:18:00 -
[459] - Quote
Hexatron Ormand wrote:Now this posting got unstickied, and there is no word yet if there will be any work done on the UI to actually display the information on active drones, or even those in the bay.
You cannot see how changing scripts or active modules change the drone stats - while it is common to get all those informations on your turrets.
Any words on this? Is there any work done to get those informations out to the drone users?
If you actually read the thread, there's a post a few pages back where Fozzie states that he understands that people want it, but it would be quite a PITA to write the code for it, due to backend restrictions between elements. |
Narkomaan
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 15:02:00 -
[460] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone.
I want to officially clarify that the fact that drone attributes are not properly displaying in show info is a bug and that your Omnis are in fact applying their bonuses correctly. The issue with show info is a long standing bug that has to do with the way the client displays attributes on items that aren't your ship (or directly fitted to your ship). We're looking into getting it fixed, but it's not a simple issue.
The drones werent directly fitted to our ships before 1.1 and the attributes were showing correctly when drones were in our dronebay. I think we can accept the fact that drone attribues dont show when the drones are launched but why cant we see the bonused attribues when the drones are in bay when they were working before 1.1 and your telling that its really difficult to make them show correctly ? Im sorry in advance if i explained myself too hard to understand. Cheers.
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
516
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Posted - 2014.02.08 15:44:00 -
[461] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Hi Fozzie, it's heartening to see that you are monitoring this thread. I am interested in the choice to balance sentry drones by modifying the omnidirectional tracking link. There has been a great deal of consensus amongst players that the reason for them being overpowered is actually the fact that you can set a fleet of sentries to assist one fast-locking FC. Are you able to confirm that modifying this mechanic (for example disallowing it with sentry drones) was examined by the dev team? If so, I would be very interested as to why this avenue was not pursued. Since it seems to me that it would mitigate the single feature of sentries that makes them overly powerful. To be clear, the recent change to omnis has made sentries more fiddly to use in that they now require some limited player intervention, but has not ultimately brought them in line (in terms of ability to bring focussed fleet fire to bear quickly) with other weapon systems. Surely the addition of a "canSlave" flag to each drone type would not have been such a stretch? I would be most interested in your considered reply. I can confirm that drone assist has and is being looked at. We are very confident that the current drone assist system requires adjustment, and also very confident that drone assist isn't the only balance problem with sentries. Would you be so kind as to list the dev team's view of the balance problem with sentries, in order of seriousness? I am somewhat surprised that you do not share the view that this is their single most powerful feature. You should probably read it again because he said nothing of the sort.
I read Fozzie's words very carefully. They were very carefully chosen to give away as little information as possible, probably because discussions were taking place with the CSM which seem to have resulted in the assist limit.
My view on that is that the assist limit is an anemic response and that a blanket prohibition on sentry drone assist is preferable since: 1. It ensures that every pilot has to participate in combat 2. It does not impact any existing non-sentry play styles. 3. It eradicates completely the unfair instant alpha that a sentry fleet enjoys, and will still enjoy at the squad level.
I speak as a very regular user of sentries.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
673
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Posted - 2014.02.09 00:36:00 -
[462] - Quote
I do understand why Fozzie can't just say what they're going to do when it's not set in stone. I think it's pretty cool that the game devs actually respond to their players concerns. This is why I'm glad CCP is a small company. They don't leave their customers out in the "cold" |
Shvak
The Warp Core Stabilizers Tactical Narcotics Team
42
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Posted - 2014.02.11 14:28:00 -
[463] - Quote
Speak as someone who has always loved the rattlesnake. Can we possibly get some clue as to how the non-nerf bat is going to hit the ship. More dps via the missile system (extra hard point or two) or is it likely to be hull bonus to drones similar to the Ishtar and domi. Would love to take my rattler out of its tomb for a spin.
My own 5 cents. I train missile skills early on in eve until I realized every sane toon owner was gun/drone training. It really would be nice if at least one of the faction battleships made it worth while training missiles skills again. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
674
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 14:42:00 -
[464] - Quote
Shvak wrote:Speak as someone who has always loved the rattlesnake. Can we possibly get some clue as to how the non-nerf bat is going to hit the ship. More dps via the missile system (extra hard point or two) or is it likely to be hull bonus to drones similar to the Ishtar and domi. Would love to take my rattler out of its tomb for a spin.
My own 5 cents. I train missile skills early on in eve until I realized every sane toon owner was gun/drone training. It really would be nice if at least one of the faction battleships made it worth while training missiles skills again.
I hope they give it the same bonus as the Dominix. There is already the Raven, Navy Raven and Navy Scorpion that do missiles very well... I don't think they could make it a missile boat that is more powerful than the CNR because that would really be OP.
In theory a "Pirate Faction" battleship should be superior to their standard faction counterparts. At least this is true with all except the Rattlesnake and the SOE Nestor that just came out... They probably just released it kind of crappy so they can buff it later then people will be happy. It's better than releasing it OP then having to nerf it making everyone upset.
As to CCP announcing any specifics early I doubt they would do this till a final decision has been made. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
647
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Posted - 2014.02.11 16:17:00 -
[465] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Shvak wrote:Speak as someone who has always loved the rattlesnake. Can we possibly get some clue as to how the non-nerf bat is going to hit the ship. More dps via the missile system (extra hard point or two) or is it likely to be hull bonus to drones similar to the Ishtar and domi. Would love to take my rattler out of its tomb for a spin.
My own 5 cents. I train missile skills early on in eve until I realized every sane toon owner was gun/drone training. It really would be nice if at least one of the faction battleships made it worth while training missiles skills again. I hope they give it the same bonus as the Dominix. There is already the Raven, Navy Raven and Navy Scorpion that do missiles very well... I don't think they could make it a missile boat that is more powerful than the CNR because that would really be OP. In theory a "Pirate Faction" battleship should be superior to their standard faction counterparts. At least this is true with all except the Rattlesnake and the SOE Nestor that just came out... They probably just released it kind of crappy so they can buff it later then people will be happy. It's better than releasing it OP then having to nerf it making everyone upset. As to CCP announcing any specifics early I doubt they would do this till a final decision has been made.
I think the rattlesnake is a great and very powerful shield drone ship . It can fit a huge tank or buffer, a couple of neuts and do something like 1100dps to cruiser-sized targets in any damage type.
The omni change probably reduced its PVE capability but the PVP capability is stupendously good.
The Nestor is capable in groups (I have proven this on the test server) when flown very carefully as a small pack. However, it's nowhere near good value at current prices. For the same money I'd certainly be happier with 6 rattlesnakes rather than 2 Nestors on grid.
If the nestor was the same price as the rattlesnake, would I choose the rattlesnake still? I think that's a little closer call. I think they are about as powerful as each other as a pair, with the nestor getting a little more powerful up until it reaches its targeting limit.
I and a few mates sometimes run a doctrine of domis + geddons supporting each other with remote reps. A Nestor might be useful in this kind of spider fleet... but the cost...
As a side note, when fitting a Nestor or a Rattlesnake I would not dream of using large guns or missile launchers. Mediums actually apply more dps and leave plenty of CPU and power for things like neuts and remote repair.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords Codex Aevum
68
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Posted - 2014.02.22 15:53:00 -
[466] - Quote
Well the problem here is so laughably obvious that it's a pain to even state it: (read only 7. for the short form)
1. Module-Bonus: Most modules give bonuses around 12,5%-25%: (those with boni around 25% are the ones that usually go to half of all ships flown around) Examples: - Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane: 25% resistance bonus (max skills) - Magnetic Field Stabalizer II: 1.1 * 1.105 = 21,55% damage bonus - Reactor Control Unit: 15% Powergrid - Overdrive Inector System II: 12,5% Speed - Tracking Computer II some 15% boni
2. Ship:Bonus: Ship-Bonuses usually look like that: - 25% Turret Damage bonus (those already force the weapon onto you) - 20% Resistance Bonus (usually force shield or armor onto you)
3. Special Ship-Bonus: Some extraordinary bonus like the rokks: - 50% boni to Hybrid optimal are so heavy that not many ships have them and they are missing many other boni to compensate
4. Why do we need a 50% drone bonus on all drone-ships? Now we have the following problem with drones: - most ships can use them - we wont dedicated drone ships -> The only reason to do that is to give ALL of the drone-ships a high bonus (50%) to compensate.
5. What would happen if the bonus would be in line with the other bonuses? If this would be put any lower one of the following problems would emerge: - drones are well balances for drone-ships -> drones are far too strong for regular ships - drones are well balanced for regular ships -> drones are too weak for drone ships - one would have to remove drones from regular ships - drone ships would need another bonus That's why as long as there are regular ships with drones the high 50% drone damage bonus is important.
6. Why were all drone ships fair and it was possible to balance them all at once? - All drone ships have a bandwith fitting to their size/cost and are capable of beeing drone ships - All drone ships have a 50% damage bonus - all drone ships are uncapable of using a secondary high-dmg weapon without gimping the ship - All drone ships have regular other bonuses around 15-25% - Those bonuses can be compensated and be worked around with modules who do around the same amount - Because of stacking penalty its impossible to get one bonus over the top - ship bonuses dont receive stacking penalties so its important that they are not too high
7. So what is messed up right now? - The bonus of 37,5% tracking on the domi/ishtar is far too high - The bonus of 37,5% optimal on the domi/ishtar is far too high - its completly impossible for a regular drone ship to compensate for that without gimp-fits Now ccp has bad choices: - don't change anything and dominix/ishtar will be too strong and other drone ships will be too weak - bring the tracking/optimal of the dominix/ishtar in line with gunships -> all other drone ships will have huge tracking issues - bring the tracking/optimal of the regular drone-ships in line with gunships -> dominix/ishtar will be ridiculously strong
And ccp has some good choices: - nerf the dominix/isthar in annother way to compensate for the godlike range/tracking and make them specialized (tank) - give the 37,5% bonus to tracking/opti to ALL drone ships - lower the tracking/opti bonus to a reasonable amount that usual drone ships can achieve due modules (20%)
What ccp has done here is a horrible choice of action: The high bonus of 37,5% was already hard to achieve with the old omnis. With nerfing the omnis this has become utterly impossible now. With omnis and dominix/ishtar-bonuses as they are it's almost impossible to bring both in line. -> reduce the tracking bonus to 4% per level and adjust the dominix/ishtar so they are still viable. Only then can all ships be usefull.
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
132
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Posted - 2014.02.22 21:05:00 -
[467] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: But the honest truth is that Sentries were too good relative to other comparable weapons. Their damage envelope (the combination of range, damage and tracking) is very good and was one of several contributing factors that were leading to Sentries becoming overly dominant in almost all areas of EVE. Like I said in the original post, the fact that these changes reduce the power of Omnis is completely intentional.
We also are aware that the Rattlesnake isn't in quite as strong of a place as many other Pirate BS right now, and that is high on our agenda at the moment.
Only on ships with a bonus for tracking and range. It is why the rattlesnake got screwed. |
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