Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .. 16 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
606
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 18:38:00 -
[181] - Quote
Cap use? Really?
Well if you're brining them in line - will you drop the CPU accordingly...?
Edit:
That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
103
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 19:12:00 -
[182] - Quote
I don't comment much in these threads but as a frequent user of drones for wormhole PVE I feel the need to speak up. The changes to the Omni's are clearly addressing OP issues brought about by the ship bonuses of the Domi and Ishtar. With the inherent and previously stated shortcomings of sentry drones, these changes will make anything but an Ishtar or Domi essentially useless for PVE and in most applications, PVP as well. CCP, please address the issues currently present in those 2 hulls rather than kill all the other drone boats. I speak specifically to the Rattlesnake which won't be worth flying if these changes go live as-is and the Rattler isn't rebalanced with Domi/Ishtar hull bonuses. This change in Omni's appears to be a very broad and crude way to handle the issue of assisted sentry drone fleets. I sincerely hope that we are allowed real input to the final change once this goes live on Sisi and some actual testing can prove how bad this is. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
172
|
Posted - 2014.01.20 22:34:00 -
[183] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:I don't comment much in these threads but as a frequent user of drones for wormhole PVE I feel the need to speak up. The changes to the Omni's are clearly addressing OP issues brought about by the ship bonuses of the Domi and Ishtar. With the inherent and previously stated shortcomings of sentry drones, these changes will make anything but an Ishtar or Domi essentially useless for PVE and in most applications, PVP as well. CCP, please address the issues currently present in those 2 hulls rather than kill all the other drone boats. I speak specifically to the Rattlesnake which won't be worth flying if these changes go live as-is and the Rattler isn't rebalanced with Domi/Ishtar hull bonuses. This change in Omni's appears to be a very broad and crude way to handle the issue of assisted sentry drone fleets. I sincerely hope that we are allowed real input to the final change once this goes live on Sisi and some actual testing can prove how bad this is.
Well a few people have said the Domi in its current form is closer to a faction or pirate BS than a T1. TBH it would have made more sense if the bonuses of the Navy and the T1 Domi were reversed. As far as the rattler goes very few people train up for them anymore and the ones you now see are generally people that already flew them. Hence the massive price drop in Rattler hulls the last 12 months.
|
Moor Deybe
Delusional Aspirations Of Grandure
13
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 01:53:00 -
[184] - Quote
I'd say the days of the long range Dominix sniper boat using Gardes is over, which is a shame because to get that range and DPS you had to fill the highs with Drone Link Augmentors, the mids with Omnidirectional Tracking Links, and the lows with Drone Damage Amplifiers, all at the expense of tank and mobility..........you also have to train up some very time intensive drone skills!
This fitting was a choice, but a fun choice that came with serious drawbacks i.e. thin tank and standing still next to the sentries taking incoming DPS.............which seems sort of balanced to me?
Anyway, the long range, low tank choice won't be available now, which makes the PVE use of the Dominix more restricted and less fun
Ok so there's better tracking to hit frigates up close, but hey, thats what Hobgoblins are for, and as for extra falloff, who cares about that? It takes 4 Drone Damage Amplifiers to get the DPS to take down battleships at a decent rate anyway! so hitting targets into falloff at drastically reduced DPS has limited appeal in PVE.
Overheating Omnidirectional Tracking Links?...well nice to have the option, but people don't tend to do that in PVE missions and anomalies, strictly PVP only when its win at all costs, including damaging your modules to the point of destruction.
The Dominix and Ishtar will be less capable in PVE now, and I'd say the other drone boats are pretty much screwed losing that range.
It seems peculiar that these ships were deemed balanced when they were given these bonuses / stats and now they're considered not balanced? what, because more people are using them?
Perhaps CCP should just publish stats of current ship usage so people can train for a less popular one, knowing that it won't get nerfed in the next release. LOL
I feel sorry for newer players who don't have skill points spread across different ships and weapon systems, when the ship / weapons that they've just put several months worth of skill points into becomes less effective and they find themselves back where they were three months ago capability wise.
I look forward to testing this on Singularity when its released. and I'll post what I find if it differs from my current assumptions.
TL DR;
Dominix / Ishtar nerfed for PVE due to being popular in PVP Overheating for PVP and a bit more falloff offered as a crumb of comfort. Drone boat usage reduces, ship usage stats become more evenly spread suggesting balance Game is less fun as all ships are the same. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 02:09:00 -
[185] - Quote
Meyr wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:FaulEnza N00bist wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:Remove drone assist from the game. Not more, not less. So when does the nerf titans crying start? I see N3/PL brought titans to the fight and you had none. So start crying about that. It's not the rest of the players fault on the server that you are scared to bring out ships. You just feel because you outnumber them 2 to 1 that you should win no matter what. Let's see more tears. Goon tears, best tears. Go check the Capital Turret Tracking Nerf (tm) thread. Titan and Dreadnaught turret tracking, and, thus, DPS, are getting a 5% hit, unless you're flying something similar to a CFC Naglfar, and overheating.
Yep, it's clear this is the game of goon.
No point in any of us playing this scam. Anytime something doesn't go their way CCP changes it.
I'm done. |
Andy Landen
Sub--Zero Catastrophic Uprising
496
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 02:11:00 -
[186] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:Andy Landen wrote:The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.
And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way. That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that. With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin... Well if the current stated intentions of making sentries identical to turrets in DPS/tracking/effectiveness are implemented then no not at all ... sentries will then be the same as turrets. Agreed. Sentries can be killed. No other weapon system matches that. Sentries cannot return to a ship more than 2500m away. All other weapon systems travel with the ship and are protected by the ship. With these changes, it is seeming like we need to have all other systems drop their weapons in space before being able to use them and allowing those weapons to be targeted. Captain: Target the weapons systems. Gunner: Ready to fire, captain.
As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 02:55:00 -
[187] - Quote
Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 35k to get the about the same, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 03:10:00 -
[188] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:
As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's.
TE's are not an option. Drones are working good the way they are. They are not turrets and have many disadvantages over turrets. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2128
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 03:38:00 -
[189] - Quote
v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
971
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:36:00 -
[190] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? |
|
stoicfaux
3862
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:41:00 -
[191] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: That suggests horrible, horrible things for range unbonused hulls: RS/DNI/Geddon etc.
I've uploaded a new spreadsheet with unbonused sentries and added pre-nerf Omnis for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdGYtUDdvUFpaYzF4cW5waXFiNXpUSUE&usp=sharing
It's not the end of the world for unbonused sentries.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2128
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:48:00 -
[192] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
971
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 04:57:00 -
[193] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use. I'm willing to own up to some bias here, but were not talking about just being destructible, but also being locked in position, thus meaning that if the cruiser hull uses it's mobility it can't take it's DPS with it, which every other cruiser can do. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
175
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 05:01:00 -
[194] - Quote
As expected, Bouncers with their already good falloff, come off best in the scripted version. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 06:22:00 -
[195] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range.
Yea, and it will just happen to cruisers. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 06:27:00 -
[196] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:v3locity wrote:Test for you. Vexor Navy with 2 omni, one optimal one tracking.
Use to do good damage at 55k with garde's
Now you have to be within 30k and the tracking still isn't as good, anything farther out is heavy misses. I haven't done extensive testing on tracking on closer targets.
That is totally unacceptable. So you are mad that you cant do 664 DPS(2 DDAs) @ 45km +12km falloff in a cruiser any more? Name any other cruiser that can do that kind of DPS at that range. Real question here. If it's performance wise at the same point as everything else, why use drones as a primary weapon considering their drawbacks? Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.
Where do you get 34 + 15 from. I couldn't hit crap at anything over 30.
Maybe you should actually test it on the test server. |
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
2
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 06:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:As expected, Bouncers with their already good falloff, come off best in the scripted version.
What are you actually getting, in a ship, on the test server.
They changed 1.25 multipliers to %20. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
612
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 08:21:00 -
[198] - Quote
It's a pretty significant hit. My current rattler, for example, comparing todays optimal ranges and DPS will be doing about 80% of that DPS at FAR worse tracking at the same range. (Uses 2 omnis)
Furthermore, it is a pretty significant hit....for no clear reason. It's not like these hulls are agile and can dictate range in a meaningful way.
I shall have to ponder if they are worth the hassle at this point, having other options open. Which is a shame, because I found them fun
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Trade off for being destroy-able is, the grades will still hit harder at 34km +15km falloff than any other weapon a cruiser can use.
Trouble is how that stacks up to battleship weapons? Because drone BS can't get any more damage out than those cruisers with their primary systems either. Cruisers able to field the same drone quota as a BS shouldn't be a case for an across the board nerfing. |
Minnie Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 12:33:00 -
[199] - Quote
On SiSi, Show Info doesn't take the new scripted omnidirs into account at all. Further numbers would be taken out of my arse, so I abstain.
Fitting window still shows dps of highest drone in the bay, not taking deployed drones into account at all.
Deployed drones show no sign of the Ishtar's bonuses, shows as if they were completely unbonused. |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 12:52:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
Coming back to this I'd like to ask how are you ever going to find a balance when there's a ship class in the game that doesn't care about either of those two "downsides"? Or is the design goal here such that they get the upsides for free? Sure either of those things might be considered downsides for a ship that can only carry 15 drones and does actually move around. But for a capital pilot does not give a single **** about moving or having his drones destroyed because he can vomit out 3000 more without resupplying if he wants. |
|
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 13:11:00 -
[201] - Quote
Diivil wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Sentries are a weapon system with strong upsides and strong downsides, which is one of the best things about them from a design perspective. We do not want to homogenize them with other weapon systems. The downsides of Sentries, foremost of which are immobility and destructibility, require the weapon system to have strong upsides as compensation. However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves, rather than by giving them access to a weapon upgrade that is so clearly superior to competing modules.
Coming back to this I'd like to ask how are you ever going to find a balance when there's a ship class in the game that doesn't care about either of those two "downsides"? Or is the design goal here such that they get the upsides for free? Sure either of those things might be considered downsides for a ship that can only carry 15 drones and does actually move around. But for a capital pilot does not give a single **** about moving or having his drones destroyed because he can vomit out 3000 more without resupplying if he wants.
You have the same ships / drones available to you.
Quit being a coward cry baby and use them. |
Diivil
Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 13:22:00 -
[202] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
You have the same ships / drones available to you.
Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.
What does me not using a carrier have to do with differences in weapon system balance between different ship classes? Or is it your opinion that carriers should only be fought with carriers? You have an odd view of balance if that's the case. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 14:39:00 -
[203] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range. Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.
So your solution to this is:
copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1 copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2
Edit activation cost
done
So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff.
Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff.
Scripted:
Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff
Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff
Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range
Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%.
You haven't even come close to the line you're feeding us above.
Are you the only one working on this? |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 14:44:00 -
[204] - Quote
Diivil wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:
You have the same ships / drones available to you.
Quit being a coward cry baby and use them.
What does me not using a carrier have to do with differences in weapon system balance between different ship classes? Or is it your opinion that carriers should only be fought with carriers? You have an odd view of balance if that's the case.
N3/PL risks huge assets and you want to take them out with a big pile of junk ships. So you cry because you can't.
Risk vs reward. You are to scared to bring on the ships needed and then cry about it. Simple as that. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence Surely You're Joking
105
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 14:56:00 -
[205] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote: Well a few people have said the Domi in its current form is closer to a faction or pirate BS than a T1. TBH it would have made more sense if the bonuses of the Navy and the T1 Domi were reversed. As far as the rattler goes very few people train up for them anymore and the ones you now see are generally people that already flew them. Hence the massive price drop in Rattler hulls the last 12 months.
I concur with the Domi/DNI comment. Regarding Rattlers though, so what? The Rattlesnake requires one hell of a train to fly well and I don't much appreciate CCP's kick in the teeth on drones when what they need to fix are 2 hulls that they theoretically just "fixed" and created these issues. As far as PVE, most of the supposed issues are from people crying about not being able to AFK mission with sentries due to the AI changes, and I don't much care what they whine about as it really doesn't matter. But having significant SP in drones, and the associated Rattler skills, it is total BS to now have a ship and weapons system that is non-viable for all the wrong reasons. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Priestess Lin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
76
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 16:17:00 -
[206] - Quote
Sentry falloff is not an issue. Why punish sentry users who must already must remain stationary to use their weapons?
Yours is a disgusting practice of nerf and see.
The MSI could have been awesome for EVE but got ruined because of thoughtless nerfs. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1337
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 18:23:00 -
[207] - Quote
I feel a bit cheated that a omni scripted for range will still have worse range than before, in addition to providing 0 tracking. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
623
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 18:48:00 -
[208] - Quote
From what I'm reading it's a pretty bad nerf across the board. I'm not too sad because with the new drone aggro system they're already a PITA for PVE and the only PVP ships I have that use them is the Prophecy and Armageddon. I'll just fly something else if all what people are saying is true.
Part of me is sad because one of my pilots was a "Drone specialist" but what can you do... I'll write him a new bio |
Andrea Keuvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 18:57:00 -
[209] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: The results of this change for Omni balance are that pilots will now need to choose between having excellent range bonuses and excellent tracking bonuses. Like Tracking Computers Omnis will now provide stronger bonuses to tracking than to range. Omnis will now provide a bonus to falloff instead of just optimal range, for the first time increasing the utility of sentry falloff in people's value judgements.
So your solution to this is: copy Tracking Computer 1 -> Omnidirectional 1 copy Tracking Computer 2 -> Omnidirectional 2 Edit activation cost done So you take Omnidirectional 1 with 20% range and 20% tracking bonus and make it 5% range 10% tracking and add 10% falloff. Omnidirectional 2 from 25% range and 25% tracking bonus and make it 7.5% range 15% tracking and add 15% falloff. Scripted: Omnidirectional 1 scripted tracking speed 25%, scripted optimal range 10% range and add 20% falloff Omnidirectional 2 scripted tracking speed 30%, scripted optimal range 15% range and add 30% falloff Falloff does not equal range and is a huge nerf. 15% range does not equal 2 mods with 25% range Scripted tracking speed 30% does not equal 2 mods with 25%. You haven't even come close to the line you're feeding us above. Are you the only one working on this?
This is a 100% classic Fozzie heavyhanded nerf with the illusion of a possible buff to the drones themselves ("However we believe that the best primary method to balance the upsides of Sentry Drones is through the drones themselves") which of course does not happen at the same time as the nerf to their bonus mods. This buff will of course never come, or will come 2 years down the line.
It also ignores the fact that gun tracking can be modified by both tracking computers and tracking enhancers (mid and low slots) whereas drone tracking has only a midslot module to modify tracking and range.
I loled at you noticing the copy + paste aspect of this change. The last 2-3 expansions have been 90% copy and paste of existing crap or variable changes in the database. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
614
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 19:22:00 -
[210] - Quote
And another thing, the 'competing modules' are attached to ships which can move and fire, which can manage the tracking through piloting. Sentry boats do not have that option - they can't minimize angular,transversal velocities. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .. 16 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |