Generally EVE players can be relied on to say that they're not against piracy "in principle" or piracy "in its place"; they're only opposed to "the kind of piracy that affects me".

My problem is with the New Order types, that take ganking and turn it into a cyber-cult.

Generally EVE players can be relied on to say that they're not against piracy "in principle" or piracy "in its place"; they're only opposed to "the kind of piracy that affects me".

Not to get too technical on all this, but there may be elements of EVE that you do not perceive as issues, owing to your current vantage point.

In another thread I took some pains to illustrate the ridiculous extremes some multiboxing ice-mining operations, for instance, have gone to.

Whereas from your perspective, you see a group of griefers and extortionists who's only goal is to ruin the lives of respectable, active and generally benign citizens of the EVE universe, from their perspective, owing to what they do, they all too often actually encounter just how many people there are out there exploiting (deliberately and maliciously) the high-sec mechanics of safety to leverage enormous of wealth.

Surely you agree that multiboxers that critical mass beyond a certain point of reasonability and sustainability, as well as botters, need to be addressed by the community, ingame, in some form or fashion?

Since you are not the one who is prepared to do anything about, as you are too busy doing other high-sec activities such as missioning or your own (hopefully respectable and reasonably active) mining operations, it falls upon others to do something.

Have you ever had the chance to talk one on one with cops that you know personally, about how what they see everyday (that most people don't, in large part thanks to the efforts of these cops to keep these fringe behaviors in check) affects their perception of society at large?

Here's an anecdote from my experience yesterday, if you care to read it.
It involves ice-mining and the behavior of players involved in it, and raises the question in one form atleast, of "who are actually the bad guys poisoning the community well with their attitude and behavior towards others:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4344248#post4344248

My problem is with the New Order types, that take ganking and turn it into a cyber-cult.

If you can prove you target the Bots before a lone newbie in a mining barge

But even a noob in a mining barge is quite safe if he takes the necessary precautions to tank his vessel.
Ofc there is the possibility that he will be ganked anyways, but that would come at a net loss to the aggressors.

As to bumping, the miner can simply relocate his operation.
This kind of relocation of activities due to the intervention of other players is not unusual or counter EVE's general design principles.

In many ways miner bumping is not much different than a Mackinaw/Orca fleet showing up and starting to ferociously stripmine the hell out of exactly the one rock you had your puny lasers aimed at. Would you consider that griefing as well, and the acts of a "herd of dickheads", as you put it?

You can thank CCP for that, when the New Order was first started James wasn't trying to sell permits, he was bumping people because they were afk, and because he could. CCP stepped in and told him that this modus operandi wasn't acceptable, therefore James had a discussion with the GM about what was and what was not acceptable, it turns out that doing it with a profit motive was acceptable to CCP, and thus the New Order was born.

Turning it into a quasi religious cult was a stroke of genius, people who raged hard when ganked raged even harder when confronted with gankers preaching quasi religious dictats that make the lore of the Amarr Empire look like a childrens book.

You are correct in that CCP should have just banhammered the ****

The Miner gang only forces you to switch targets, it does not cost you your ship and then try to extort even more isk from you and potentially more ship losses if they chase you.

So no, there is no comparison between the competition of a gang mining operation and a gank fleet popping up in local.

You are correct in that CCP should have just banhammered the ****

Surely you agree that multiboxers that critical mass beyond a certain point of reasonability and sustainability, as well as botters, need to be addressed by the community, ingame, in some form or fashion?

Since you are not the one who is prepared to do anything about, as you are too busy doing other high-sec activities such as missioning or your own (hopefully respectable and reasonably active) mining operations, it falls upon others to do something.

The Miner gang only forces you to switch targets, it does not cost you your ship and then try to extort even more isk from you and potentially more ship losses if they chase you.

So no, there is no comparison between the competition of a gang mining operation and a gank fleet popping up in local.

Strangely, for all this ranting about mining, moon mining is never mentioned. It's far more afk; set up POS, fuel POS, receive bacon. People do it far more "unreasonably" as you put it; coalitions control dozens of moons

It's also a shite income on a per player basis, from what I remember of the figures an ice miners income is in excess of the income from a moon.

Highsec ice-mining is about 4.8mil/15mins with an unambitious and simple setup.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4329504#post4329504

Thats my best estimate atleast. Others may have even higher ones, but I doubt lower.

And a Dyspro moon generates 100 units an hour @-á60k ISK per unit, for 6M ISK/h.

While moon mining may technically be an afk activity, it requires the ability to defend the mining operations, something most highsec miners refuse to do. It's also a shite income on a per player basis, from what I remember of the figures an ice miners income is in excess of the income from a moon.

And a Dyspro moon generates 100 units an hour @-á60k ISK per unit, for 6M ISK/h.

There's nothing wrong with moon income, and there's nothing wrong with mining. There's nothing wrong with ganking, either.

The problem is that the gankers are stifling intelligent discussion of real game issues like high-low-null risk-reward balance and the fact that mining is BORING under a sea of shiptoasting.

Ideas to actually balance the game are buried amid a sea of whining and self-justification.

As for moons, the point is that it's passive income, good or not. Per-player basis is really irrelevant since it isn't doled out like that, and generally entities that own moons own them in proportion to their size.

The problem is that the gankers are stifling intelligent discussion of real game issues like high-low-null risk-reward balance and the fact that mining is BORING under a sea of shiptoasting. Ideas to actually balance the game are buried amid a sea of whining and self-justification.

Strangely, for all this ranting about mining, moon mining is never mentioned. It's far more afk; set up POS, fuel POS, receive bacon.

that's been policy for a long time, and it's a good one

but if i petition the GMs for a pizza, do they send one? noooooo

eves mean, me sad, cry, spend 40 minutes on butthurt GD post, not a toon i don't want getting D'D'D'D'DUNKED

[quote=Marvin Shields
What happened in the audience though shocked me; Instead of being booed off the stage (Which is what I'd have attempted to do if I were in the audience), he was met with laughter and applause.

Because that's the people who play this game. Or at least the ones who are most visible, most audible, and most rampant, because the people who instigate this behavior within the game allow the behavior to creep and spread within their ranks.

Bear in mind, I played Ultima Online back when it came out and for many years following that, and that was THE game that started the open-world community-driven content MMO genre. Eve may be more polished and may have a greater following and has lasted a HELL of a lot longer, but UO was where it allllll started kids.