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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:25:00 - [1081] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: might need to look back at the thread to see which claim was made first there This claim was made by her here: Tippia wrote: The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population. She has not proven this to be true.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20217	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:31:00 - [1082] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: You have not proven that it is possible. I already have, and even if I hadn't, the onus is still on you to prove your initial claim correct. Until you do, I don't have to do anything but have kindly done so anyway because I don't operate on pure speculation like you do. Quote: I have not suggested anything. Incorrect. You have suggested that it is impossible for the CSM to represent the entire EVE population. You have yet to provide anything to support this other than speculation and fallacies. You have also suggested that the onus is on me to offer proof in response to something you have yet to prove. Avon wrote: Yeah, and the flying spaghetti monster may get elected to the next CSM. Yes, but he's in an NPC corp so it's highly unlikely. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
Avon 189	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:32:00 - [1083] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: This claim was made by her here: Tippia wrote: The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population. She has not proven this to be true. For the assertion to be true a total of 0 players out of the entire playerbase must hold views not represented For the assertion to be false a total of 1 player out of the entire playerbase must hold views not represented
Benny Ohu Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence 2770	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:32:00 - [1084] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: might need to look back at the thread to see which claim was made first there This claim was made by her here: Tippia wrote: The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population. She has not proven this to be true. you made the claim first that "since the overwhelming majority of players have not voted for them, they cannot be said to represent the interests of those who have not voted for them"
Avon 189	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:34:00 - [1085] - Quote Tippia wrote: Avon wrote: Yeah, and the flying spaghetti monster may get elected to the next CSM. Yes, but he's in an NPC corp so it's highly unlikely. I didn't say it was likely, just that it was a possibility. Much in the way you justify what you say.
Avon 190	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:40:00 - [1086] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: I simply state that no CSM that I do not vote for, represents me. As I am part of that full representation, if I make the assertion that any of the CSM do not represent me, I have negated the possibility for that body to represent the full population of EVE. With this simple act, I have refuted the possibility of this "can" situation ever occuring, or ever being true. It CANNOT be true, as long as I do not acknowledge that I am fully represented. i think in that situation you're being represented by darius iii oh snap
Benny Ohu Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence 2770	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:43:00 - [1087] - Quote even if everyone voted one person could still be dissatisfied so that's not a difference between 100% and 14% of the vote ?
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:44:00 - [1088] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Whether you voted or not, the CSM represent the playerbase at large to CCP. That is their function. Your elected representatives represent you, whether you took part in the process or not. Nobody can represent me, who I have not empowered to do so. The means whereby I would empower them is formally by voting, or informally by acknowledging that that person is empowered by me to represent my interests. Nobody can represent me without my explicit consent. As long as I with-hold that consent. it cannot be said that the CSM CAN ever be fully representative of the entirety of EVEs population.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 3352	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:46:00 - [1089] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Whether you voted or not, the CSM represent the playerbase at large to CCP. That is their function. Your elected representatives represent you, whether you took part in the process or not. Nobody can claim to represent me, who I have not empowered to do so. The means whereby I would empower them is formally by voting, or informally by acknowledging that that person is empowered by me to represent my interests. Nobody can claim to represent me without my explicit consent. As long as I with-hold that consent. it cannot be said that the CSM CAN ever be fully representative of the entirety of EVEs population. That's just splitting hairs, literally. Are you honestly telling me that we do not have a representative player council so long as even one player is not satisfied with the election results? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20217	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:46:00 - [1090] - Quote Avon wrote: For the assertion to be true a total of 0 players out of the entire playerbase must hold views not represented For the assertion to be false a total of 1 player out of the entire playerbase must hold views not represented That would be the case if I had said that they are a fully representative cross-section. What I said is that they can be. Yes, it relies on us having an unbiased sample (and this is the real thing that will trip up the GÇ£canGÇ¥ bit), but at 14% of the total population, the odds are actually fairly good that it's all there and that the margin of error is suitably small. But at that point we're discussing voter behaviour rather than actual percentages. Quote: I didn't say it was likely, just that it was a possibility. Much in the way you justify what you say. Oh, I know. This is why I'm ribbing Salvos over the modalities involvedGÇª Well, that, and his faulty generalisation of specific cases. Salvos Rhoska wrote: She has not proven this claim. Yes I have. You're just assuming that the claim is one of actual fact rather than possibility, but again, can Gëá must Gëá is. Quote: It CANNOT be true, as long as I do not acknowledge that I am fully represented. GÇªand that's just it: GÇ£as long asGÇ¥. It can be true just fine, given the right circumstances. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.

Faenir Antollare University of Caille Gallente Federation 207	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:48:00 - [1091] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Whether you voted or not, the CSM represent the playerbase at large to CCP. That is their function. Your elected representatives represent you, whether you took part in the process or not. Nobody can claim to represent me, who I have not empowered to do so. The means whereby I would empower them is formally by voting, or informally by acknowledging that that person is empowered by me to represent my interests. Nobody can claim to represent me without my explicit consent. As long as I with-hold that consent. it cannot be said that the CSM CAN ever be fully representative of the entirety of EVEs population. I never voted for New Labour and Tony Blair et-al back in the day, still see the damage reaked and do you know what ? ..they represented me whether I liked it or not, just a life lesson that also applies to EvE.
Benny Ohu Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence 2773	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:51:00 - [1092] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: That's just splitting hairs, literally. figuratively
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:52:00 - [1093] - Quote Tippia wrote: The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population. Where have you proven this? Nowhere. Furthermore, you cannot prove it, because I, as one part of the entire EVE population, do not recognise and have not empowered any member of the CSM panel as representative of me. Infact, this disproves your claim perfunctorily, without any need for proof to your statement itself. What you claim to be true, cannot be true, as long as I exist as part of the entire EVE population. You cannot prove the opposite, because you cannot eliminate my choice in this matter, as a part of the entire EVE population.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 3353	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:54:00 - [1094] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: That's just splitting hairs, literally. figuratively No, I genuinely imagined him bent over a desk with one of those jeweler's eyepieces and a monofilament knife. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 12:58:00 - [1095] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No, I genuinely imagined him bent over a desk with one of those jeweler's eyepieces and a monofilament knife. The imagination is a wonderful thing. As you often exercise with imagined implications, suggestions etc that the other person has not actually or objectively expressed. Like having a discussion with an imaginary person, rather than the actual person. I understand why you do it. But its in your own head, not actually something that I am, have done, or am responsible for.
Faenir Antollare University of Caille Gallente Federation 208	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:02:00 - [1096] - Quote Faenir Antollare wrote: I never voted for New Labour and Tony Blair et-al back in the day, still see the damage reaked and do you know what ? ..they represented me whether I liked it or not, just a life lesson that also applies to EvE. They are empowered by their office to make decisions for you, by a majority of voters. But they do not represent you. Furthermore, as is distinct in CSM, the body has no actual power or authority, whereas Parliament is, it is true, empowered to act on the behalf of the majority, they are also responsible to the minority, whether they are empowered by that minorities vote or note.[/quote] Guessing politics is not your forte, to be responsible is to represent, whether or not you cast your vote in that direction.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20217	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:02:00 - [1097] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Where have you proven this? In the discussion starting from where you made the claim that it was impossible and onwards. Again, the problem is that you're expecting proof that they do, when what I said is that they can. You're not seeing it because you're assuming the wrong modality. Quote: Furthermore, you cannot prove it, because I, as one part of the entire EVE population, do not recognise and have not empowered any member of the CSM panel as representative of me. GÇªand your showing that they don't in this particular case does not disprove that it is impossible for them to do so. Quote: What you claim to be true, cannot be true, as long as I exist as part of the entire EVE population. GÇªand once that condition is removed, it once again can be true. Can Gëá must Gëá is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
Avon 190	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:11:00 - [1098] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Where have you proven this? In the discussion starting from where you made the claim that it was impossible and onwards. Again, the problem is that you're expecting proof that they do, when what I said is that they can. You're not seeing it because you're assuming the wrong modality.. Actually you should be using the modal verb "could" rather than "can" as you are expressing a possibility rather than an ability. You aren't saying they are currently able to fully represent the whole playerbase, just that the situation is possible. Added: Unless your assertion is that they do fully represent the playerbase, in which case "can" would be the correct usage.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20217	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:13:00 - [1099] - Quote Avon wrote: Actually you should be using the modal verb "could" rather than "can" as you are expressing a possibility rather than an ability. That's a fair point. Although I'd probably argue that it's both GÇö after all, they do have the ability in much the same way as it is a possibility. Of course, actually living up to that ability would require a lot more work than they're likely to want to put into the whole affair. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:15:00 - [1100] - Quote Tippia wrote: The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population. You cannot prove this, because of my refusal to acknowledge that I am represented, nor provide consent or empowerment to that effect, and as I am a part of that entire EVE population. Tippia wrote: GÇªand once that condition is removed, it once again can be true. Can Gëá must Gëá is. Then you have to prove that once I am removed, nobody else will likewise block the first claim from being true. Again, you cannot.

E-2C Hawkeye State War Academy Caldari State 533	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:16:00 - [1101] - Quote Tippia wrote: Avon wrote: Actually you should be using the modal verb "could" rather than "can" as you are expressing a possibility rather than an ability. Although I'd probably argue Yes this is 100% established and documented.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20218	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:17:00 - [1102] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: You cannot prove this, because of my refusal to acknowledge that I am represented, and as I am a part of that entire EVE population. Your refusal does not make it impossible. Quote: Then you have to prove that once I am removed, nobody else will likewise block the first claim from being true. No. I just have to show that there is a set of conditions where it is will happen (which has been done, btw). That's the funny thing: even if it never happens, it'll still be true that it canGÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
Avon 190	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:18:00 - [1103] - Quote Could
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:20:00 - [1104] - Quote Tippia wrote: That's the funny thing: even if it never happens, it'll still be true that it canGÇª Its not funny. Its stupid, illogical and false. You cannot prove that it will ever happen. Therefore there is no proof that it can happen. Typical Tippia circle-logic. You cannot prove that there will not always be someone, even just one person, who does not acknowledge that they, as a part of the entire EVE community, are represented by the CSM elected by a mere 14% of the entire population.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20218	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:22:00 - [1105] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Its not funny. Yes it is. Ok. The fact itself might not be funny, but the way the pattern-matching machine on top of people's necks get all tripped up by probabilities and possibilities really is. Quote: You cannot prove that it will ever happen. GÇªnor is that the claim. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:24:00 - [1106] - Quote Tippia wrote: nor is that the claim. Then where is your proof that it CAN happen?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20218	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:25:00 - [1107] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Then where is your proof that it CAN happen? In the set of conditions that makes it possible. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
E-2C Hawkeye State War Academy Caldari State 534	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:26:00 - [1108] - Quote What tippia can and will do is derail a thread by arguing over anything stupid. The more obtuse the better. Then the thread becomes locked and thatGÇÖs mission accomplished. She/he also hopes it becomes locked at the point where tippia has the last post so it gives the appearance of getting the last word in.
Salvos Rhoska Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 419	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:27:00 - [1109] - Quote Tippia wrote: In the set of conditions that makes it possible. You have not proven that that set of conditions can ever be possible. Your position is very much like claiming: "Pigs CAN one day learn to fly, in the set of conditions that makes it possible" But you can never prove that that set of conditions will ever become possible. Its an empty statement with no bearing or wherewithal to anything of substance or consequence. It is neither false nor true. Just stupid. You might as well claim that: "Ghandi CAN one day pilot a Catalyst and gank miners, in the set of conditions that makes it possible".
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20218	Posted - 2014.03.24 13:28:00 - [1110] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: You have not proven that that set of conditions can ever be possible. The conditions kind of do that in and of themselves, you knowGÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.



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