1) Will Large plexes remain ungated?

2) The plexes currently respawn 30 minutes after they are closed. With new large plexes as a thing the total number of plexes a system has is increased by 33%. A dedicated attacker can flip a system much faster as a result. Can you slow the roll on plex respawn rates?

1) Will Large plexes remain ungated?
2) The plexes currently respawn 30 minutes after they are closed. With new large plexes as a thing the total number of plexes a system has is increased by 33%. A dedicated attacker can flip a system much faster as a result. Can you slow the roll on plex respawn rates?

Cloaking prevention within capture range

One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to keep the LP stealing viable while doing some changes to pretend we're doing meaningful changes.

These are obviously not the only changes we could make to improve FW and they are not the only changes we want to make as we move forward, but we still believe that this package of complex improvements will benefit FW significantly.
We look forward to hearing your feedback!

Cloaking prevention within capture range
To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

We received some requests at Fanfest to increase this radius farther, which we will consider after we have seen how this first change plays out. One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to make hunting viable.

What about adding a warp disruption effect 2x the distance of capture for the duration of the capture?

the most effective way to play the game will remain 'boring away the other player'

this makes a bad game.

Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.

A much better solution would have been to make cloaking up an unattractive option for the farmer. Better than simply removing the option, and also removing the cloaking option for everyone else as well.

In range of button, counting down timer.
Move outside range, countdown stops.
Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.

Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.

Warp stabs are the problem. They are good for nothing but avoiding fights.

Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.

Warp stabs are the problem. They are good for nothing but avoiding fights.

The fancy 30km invisible object that prevents everyone from cloaking should simple be a 30km bubble.

Yep, timer rollbacks ftw. Maybe we haven't been asking for timer rollbacks enough. Ahem.

Timer rollbacks (gradual) good. Timer resets (immediate) bad.

...are not intended to somehow bring an end to "farming" or other evasion tactics. We have no intention of hard blocking warp core stabs or cloaks from complexes.

I agree that a gradual timer rollback would be better. I am curious why you feel that an immediate reset is bad.

EDIT: An immediate reset is a bigger penalty for running. Do you think it is too big a penalty?

The fancy 30km invisible object that prevents everyone from cloaking should simple be a 30km bubble.

make novice and small plexes for militra only(to feel like you actualy fighing oposite militra and war) to cut those cry spam from people that not eaven in fw BIGEST COUNTER TO CLOAKY STABED FARMER IS PERSON IN OPOSITING MILITRA your goal is to flip systems not fight

make medium and large with no accelerator gate for others.

These help a bit, so +1

But instead of rats, why not have a structure:

1) this structure only shoots members of the opposing militia when under fire by them (it does not auto-agress)
2) because it does not interfere with PVP, it can have much bigger tank regen, and dps

same dps check, but improved?

A much better solution would have been to make cloaking up an unattractive option for the farmer. Better than simply removing the option, and also removing the cloaking option for everyone else as well.

In range of button, counting down timer.
Move outside range, countdown stops.
Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.

You should try and find away to let covert cloaks work.

So in general, none of these changes actually address the issues in FW at all. Cloaks and warp core stabilizers were never the problem at hand, they were simply a symphom of a larger issue: the fact that it's more profitable to cap plexes passively than to actually fight and/or contribute to the faction itself.

So what will happen now? Farmers will simply stay at the edge of the 30k radius and burn off + cloak up when someone arrives. Afk farmers will keep using 4-stabbed Punishers while watching Netflix and will just alt tab and warp away when they hear the shield beeping. I doubt the new large complexes will bring much more PVP with larger ships either, as they are constellation wide now, so farmers have even more places to go in backwater systems.

These changes have obviously not been thought trough.

I would like to point out to people going on about stabs, that there are viable *combat* fits (most centered around drones set to aggressive not requiring an actual lock) that use stabs. Podcats (stabbed combat fitted ishkurs) come to mind and people have done similar things with vexors.

Stabs have severe drawbacks to both lock range and scan resolution, they are certainly not without disadvantages. If something warps away from you in an engagement it is because you brought insufficient means of stopping them from doing so, not the other way around. That's true both in and outside of faction warfare. You are not in fact entitled to a kill mail just because you (attempted to) engag(e)d something.

personally i don't have a problem with warp core stabs, it's a legit tactic like everything else in eve. But i have 2 "issues". First my minor beef with stabs is that their design leans too far into the realm of survivability than a practical combat module, if they gave a warp speed or acceleration bonus i would be happy with what they are then. The second part is that these are supposed to be "combat sites" and not isk printing sites. I would like to see it where there is more of a combat focus on these sites and make it harder for less combat fits to do things.

All hail Fozzy!

I like those changes.

There is another thing that was mentioned at last year's FW roundtable.

Someone asked for plex accel gates (or capture beacons) to trigger a suspect timer, so that participants don't have to be worried about their sec status in there. How do you feel about this suggestion now?

Great change, but does not go far enough. Please continue to make FW mean "Factional Warfare", not "Farming World".

To those who think PvPers have no right to be upset about FW farming: FW is advertised and intended as a semi-organized system for sovereignty-like PvP, with incentives for smaller fights in smaller ships. It's an admirable vision.

It is not what actually happens, though. Instead, who are the biggest "participants"? People who do not fight, and often do not even have the ability to fight. How are they so active in this "war"? By orbiting buttons and running away. Cloaks are part of this, but not the entirety. As long as FW pays out in full to people who refuse to fight, the problem will persist -- regardless of modules or ships.

So I'm just butthurt and like "telling people how to play" right? Wrong. These "farm and run" mechanics are actively hurting PvP in faction warfare. The prevalence of farmers makes looking for a fight a prolonged sequence of chasing red herring after red herring. PvPers use (or, want to use) the complexes as fight "arenas", nexuses for finding fights. We most often have no interest in boring ourselves to death capturing the complex, or in chasing after farmers.

When I'm in a Rifter and see another Rifter on d-scan in a plex, I get excited for a good fight. I warp there, activate the gate, get ready... and he runs away. I go to the next system. Same thing happens there. Next system, again. Then again several times more. This experience makes fighting in a system indended to promote fighting extremely frustrating. Yes, I can fit more scrams to catch farmers, but why would I want to? Those fights are not fun, and using that kind of fit makes many regular fights impossible too. Again, the problem is not that farmers are hard to catch. The problem is that they are there in the first place, providing the illusion of an upcoming fight, leading to an extremely unsatisfying rollercoaster of unfulfilled adrenaline and excitement.

On top of that, "farming" taking center stage in a "warfare" system over "fighting" is just misleading and wrong.

Some hypothetical parallels:

• You spend time scanning down an exploration complex, fit for it, enter it... and the rats all leave.
• You're looking for a fairly rare item, travel to a station where it's available, try to buy it from the market... and the market says it's not there.
• You go to a mall and there are multiple stores saying "Half Life 3 now in stock!" When you enter and try to find it on the shelves, it's not there.
• Allied troops land at the D-Day invasion, but the German troops are nowhere to be found. The Germans later win the battle because they crept back in and planted a small plastic flag in the ground, then ran away again.

These are not fun mechanics. It's not cloaks or warp core stabilizers or farmers that are broken. It's the whole system. Please rethink it, CCP.

A step in the right direction: the capture meter degrades to "neutral" when nobody from either side is involved, and degrades at a higher rate when there are non-FW people present.

Look at me, I'm A Lame Farmer. I sit at 29 km from the button in the direction opposite the warp-in, and farm. Oh hey look, Petrus Blackshell is entering my PLEX. Silly Petrus, looking for PvP in a PvE system. I'm going to pulse my MWD/AB and cloak once i get to 31 km from the button. It's not like he can do anything to me, because he warps in at 40 km from me. I have plenty of time to get away.

Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.

Warp stabs are the problem. They are good for nothing but avoiding fights.

How about doing something useful like:

"Sovereignty"

if PVP is what you want then dont spend your time chasing the t1 fit frigs in plexes.

I wholeheartedly agree with my esteemed colleague from the pirate side of the house.

[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.


Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

How can I distinguish between a farmer and a target worthy of PvP-chase? This is especially in light of having seen not just farming frigates, but also destroyers and cruisers lately.

Yes, these large outposts are ungated just like the current large plexes


We're aware of the increase in potential flip speed. However with the respawning and harder repping NPCs slowing capture rates of each plex we think the overall change will be acceptable. We'll be keeping an eye on feedback of course and tweaking respawn rates would be very easy if needed.

I prefer the proposal to give WCS a significant negative damage modifier, as expressed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342571&find=unread

and here: http://sandciderandspaceships.blogspot.com/2014/02/stab-stabs.html

Removing cloaks from plexes actually helps farmers by impeding those that hunt them.

I don't like the various timer reset ideas as much, but I wouldn't mind them either.

Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

Personally I would love to jettison the tier system and pay everyone a flat LP rate for FW kills and plexes. (Tier 2?). This, combine with the changes proposed, would cut down on farming so it isn't the acid drip it currently is. There would still be enough to grease the wheels. Market scarcity rather then tier level would be the driving factor though.

Join a FW corp or alliance, then your sec status only drops when fighting non members of FW.

I don't see why non FW members think they are entitled to Pvp free of penalties for fighting in plexes - It's not like it has anything to do with FW. Your only there for lowsec Pvp. Which has sec status penalties attached to it.

Would it be easy to get rid of the links between the militia's (minm+gal, amarr+caldari)? It would get rid of cross plexing nonsense and "overview" issues that are utilized to gank FW newbies (he's purple but he's shooting me!).

Ummm... I *am* in FW, and I wonder what the logic is for my losing sec status while fighting pirates in a FW plex.

The after downtime spawning advantage needs to be addressed with these changes too. Can you put a delay in the spawning of the plexes after down time?

Why not just make it so that if you are cloaked or leave the plex then the plex you were running counts down at double or triple the speed? Why not just make it reset to 0 automatically? This would make it far from beneficial to cloaking up and avoiding fights.

Ummm... I *am* in FW, and I wonder what the logic is for my losing sec status while fighting pirates in a FW plex.

Let's make fare not war.

Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.

Maybe replace the orbiting mechanic with a deployable you need to defend? That would render the whole cloaking and warpstabbing obsolete.

How would you design a system that makes fighting more profitable than 'farming'? I can't imagine that this wouldn't quickly be abused by people just burning ships.

To say that it isn't the cloaks/stabs that is the problem isn't really thinking it through. You need a resource that's worth fighting over in order to generate fights. To suggest that you could make a system that is purely PvP would be silly.

Part of what FW is, is a labor pool of work hours that converts time spent plexing into LP, which converts ships and modules and other goods into better ships/modules/implants/decryptors that wouldn't otherwise exist. It effectively becomes specialized labor, so at its root it provides a core economic product to the community. To make the warzone entirely about PvP would be to overlook this.

Large plex change, is awesome.

NPC respawn I have mixed feelings on, especially if the respawns will interfere with PVP.

The cloak change solves no issue that we have, and actually kills one of the most reliable ways to hunt stabbed farmers, to say nothing for the baited ambush tactic using cov ops type ships to set traps. I think this change hurts more than it helps.

Cloaky farmers tend to be at their keyboards and checking d-scan so they can cloak before you are on grid or can get a target lock on them. Now all they need to do is sit 29,500 meters off the button and move for 2 seconds before they can cloak up. The only difference between a cloaking farmer and one that will otherwise run is that the cloaky farmer does not need to warp off/warp back.

I think many people in the FW community are more concerned with the AFK plexers running multi stabbed frigs that are able to plex with minimized clients, using an audio cue to let them know when to maximize and warp off. The respawn change may do something to cause them to come back to the keys every few minutes, but the jury is still out on whether the respawn will tip the balance in what would otherwise be an extremely close 1v1 PVP fight. I've personally been in many fights where even a couple hundred damage would tip the balance.

NPC respawn I have mixed feelings on, especially if the respawns will interfere with PVP.

Cloaky farmers tend to be at their keyboards and checking d-scan so they can cloak before you are on grid or can get a target lock on them.

Warp core stabs give your ship a penalty when you fit them. Why not extend this penalty?

Just going to toss out some numbers here:
1 warp core stab: increases time on button by 50%
2 warp core stabs increases time on button by 75%
3 warp core stabs increases time on button by 87.5%
etc. etc.

Those numbers might be a bit harsh, but I'm sure they portray the idea.

From what I've heard, a good portion are bots. Namely, they cloak when you get on d-scan, but if you enter the plex and cloak up, they immediately decloak to run the timer. No player at the keyboard would do that, since they'd have seen that Astero enter the plex and know not to decloak. Having a change like this will hose those kinds of bots while not penalizing actual players who are actually at the keyboard.

There should be a neutral NPC in the plex that does not agress you. The timer won't move while the NPC is alive. The NPC does minimal dmg, but has a reasonable tank. The NPC respawns every few minutes.

excellent changes really. much needed

however the large outposts needs to be gated. they have to be or there will be no point in running any kind of small bc fleets.

all it will encourage is alpha nado fleets

...which will encourage Maulus / Celestis / Crucifier / Arbitrator spam, which leads to brawling comps, which get countered by kiting comps, which get countered by Nado fleets, which...

It'll be interesting to see how the Large Oupost introduction changes things. It'll definitely incentivize shipping up and trying out comps not as dependent on the gate mechanism meta. Given the bloodbaths that already happen whenever we invade main staging systems, the FW as lolfrigs might really get turned on it's ear in a hurry.

I for one look forward to the challenge of mastering more open-field style combat. Methinks the local pirate gangs are going to get a rather rude awakening once the top militia corps get better at running shinier open field fleet comps.

first of all thank you for including large plexes in the regular FW spawn cycle we asked for it since inferno - a really nice change.

The other two changes however i really can't support. The problem is that they most likely will make plexing more annoying without fixing anything.

If you are after LP running or hiding is still more efficient than fighting, making running or hiding more difficult does not fix the problem its just a dirty way of dealing of the symptoms of the mechanics.

CCP has a history of fixing symptoms instead of the problem, for example if you look back what happened in inferno, plex layout changes like moving the beacon closer to the warpin or the requirement to kill the rat instead of tanking it did not help at all to motivate farmers to get out the vicious circle and use pvp ships (it really is the first step, if you don't do this you have no choice but running away).



A fix of the problem would NOT be to prohibit cloaks, or block stabs. It would be to penalize running or hiding. Sounds horribly complicated right? FEAR NOT ITS THE EASIEST FIX IN THE WORLD. I am sure nobody in the forums EVER suggested timer resets as most obvious fix to the problem. Kappa

So how would a CLEAN FIX OF THE PROBLEM look you ask? There are many many variations of the timer reset or rollback proposal. Here a few examples:
- timer ticks backwards in accelerated fashion till it reaches neutral state if a player waits in the plex
- timer ticks backwards till it reaches the neutral (normal speed) state if everything left the beacon
- timer resets immediately (imagine you could spend lp on the plex structure to reset it)
- ... just a few EXAMPLES

you say, hey thats not fair since i might waste so much time of my life plexing. FEAR NOT timer length is not set in stone.
- imagine someone would reduce timer length and payouts to balance the now fixed mechanics between EXPANSIONS

you say everybody would blob and i can't solo anymore (sidenote: i solo pvp at least 90% of my gametime)
- firstly, the nature of blobs is that they a) get killed by a larger blob or b) dissolve quickly since there is no other blob around
- secondly, having a blob you still won't be able to cover whole FW space. A route through all amarr systems alone has 32+ jumps, and thats half of the warzone. (cal-gal WZ is much larger btw) How often do you think a blob would fly this route?
- thirdly, crazy concepts like patrol gangs might actually work, you could defend (selected) systems or disrupt your opponent defending systems WITHOUT TRADING TIME 1:1 WITH FARMERS
- solo farming WILL STILL PERFECTLY WORK, all you would have to do is to use a pvp fit an pick a quiet system


so what would happen after implementing the MOST OBVIOUS FIX IN EVE HISTORY you ask?
- stabs, cloaks will serve the original purpose: protecting your ship but using them for make LP won't work anymore
- plexing will be a mechanic to create confilct and you would see more fights in them
- frigs will stick to novices, destroyers to small plexes and cruisers to medium plexes
- people will plex together in great joy, celebrating the new plexing mechanics

OMG the fix is PERFECT you say, do we still need the other stuff?
- actually no, rats, artificial rules like cloak inhibitors don't matter anymore, you could just remove them or keep them... doesn't matter

but you still want to EXPLOIT A BROKEN SYSTEM TO FARM LP WITHOUT RISK OR EFFORT you say?
- no problem m8. FW covers EVERYTHING. You can fly pve missions which allow you to complete them without NPC agro, 0 risk... you can cloak any time, watch a movie etc. Best of all: it doesn't influence sov and its the perfect solo mechanic DESIGNED TO BE NO CONFLICT DRIVER

but what if this change is made and it DOESN'T WORK (fictional, highly theoretical scenario - won't happen ever)
- luckily eve has now a new 6 week deployment model so you could implement the "we will monitor the situation and tweak the system later" - inferno - CCP Soundwave - before riot - promise with minimal effort


thanks for listening and thanks for the large plex change

epic post]

~stuff~

- timer resets immediately (imagine you could spend lp on the plex structure to reset it)

...

There will still be plenty of opportunities for newer players to make LP but it will require more effort. Find a dead system (plenty of them) or run missions.

First off that's an excellent post Bienator.

Secondly there should be no reason for a sec loss inside a plex. Activating the gate doesn't have to make you a suspect. Just make it so there is no adjustments to your sec status when you engage in a plex. It is a huge disadvantage to wait until the pirate has dictated range and fired the first shot before I attack. FW pilots should not be penalized for defending themselves against an aggressive act. And entering a plex is an aggressive act.

(unless they are just entering to hold a nice conversation with you about your ship of choice. In that case, hi pirate how are you doing!?)

So... 30km from timer... all farmer now will stay on 29km far away from timer structure, when they see some1 on scan they will move 500meters and cloak. nice fix... actually you remove ability for ppl who sit inside in plex and hunt for farmers. Before I can jump inside plex in cloak and kill damn stabed/cloaked farmer. now cant if I wasnt jump inside before them. Still he will run cause is stabbed... Just block entrance with wcs ships if they arent stealth ships like | astero/stealth bomber/cover ops |. You fix nothing CCP. Shame on you, FW still ****** up totally for ppl who want fight. You create zone for farmers with cloak/warp stabs. You are farming on customers like they farming LP...

I quit FW today, nothing to do there.

ps. sorry for my bad english, that isnt my primary language :P

just make the no-cloak zone much larger than the cap zone.

if he's a pirate then you can attack whenever. spawning and entering a plex in my system is an aggressive act, more like.

So... 30km from timer... all farmer now will stay on 29km far away from timer structure, when they see some1 on scan they will move 500meters and cloak. nice fix... actually you remove ability for ppl who sit inside in plex and hunt for farmers. Before I can jump inside plex in cloak and kill damn stabed/cloaked farmer. Now cant if I wasnt jump inside before them. Still they will run cause are stabbed... Just block entrance with wcs/cloak if they arent stealth ships like | astero/stealth bomber/cover ops |. You fix nothing CCP. Shame on you, FW still ****** up totally for ppl who want fight. You create zone for farmers with cloak/warp stabs. You are farming on customers like they farming LP...

I quit FW today, nothing to do there.

ps. sorry for my bad english, that isnt my primary language :P

Yes, this is a good idea.


FTFY.


I'm looking forward to see the rest of the FW changes, and hopefully one of them will be reduction of LP from idle orbiting and a substantial increase of LP gained by killing pilots of opposing militias and also pirates.

I'm also looking forward to a solution for popular plexing fits such as this.

Yes, but why would we want to exclude cloak-capable combat ships from the warzone? The current change is bad enough, making the no-cloak zone large enough to actually matter is going to ruin cloaky combat in its entirety.

Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eleventh, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again

I want to make it clear that these changes are intended to create a more interesting environment for FW plexing and to make pvp fits more competitive with "farming" fits on an lp/hr scale, but are not intended to somehow bring an end to "farming" or other evasion tactics. We have no intention of hard blocking warp core stabs or cloaks from complexes. Players should have tools to help mitigate risk, as long as those tools require tradeoffs.

Perhaps it should be looked at this way.

Simply sitting within capture range = a very slow rate of capture.

Actively engaged in combat with an NPC within the capture zone = higher rate of capture.

I suppose you could even go to the extent of saying:

Actively engaged in combat with a player(s) of the owning faction = fastest rate of capture (assuming you survive that long)... although this last could very well be exploited.

~a good, rational post~

CCP, hire this guy.

I second that

Would also like to see gate on large plex.

Cloaking radius limits I dislike intensely - cloaks inside the plex are useful for PVE and PVP. I firmly believe you are destroying gameplay options for both sets of players here. Please reconsider.

Is there a particular reason that the often repeated requests for timer rollbacks (which appears to have a large amount of support from the FW community) seem to be ignored. Is it just too hard to implement? Maybe I missed an official CCP response to this somewhere?

I've gone into hundreds of plexes in the last year.. I have twice been attacked by cloaky hunters but i've run into countless farmers that cloak up. The "You are hurting pvp options" arguement is kinda bullshit.

I've gone into hundreds of plexes in the last year.. I have twice been attacked by cloaky hunters but i've run into countless farmers that cloak up. The "You are hurting pvp options" arguement is kinda bullshit.

Perhaps from your point of view. See it from my side for a moment?

I want to be able to sit inside my FW complexes with my cloaky SOE/Recon etc ships with Admiral Ackbar quotes ready to spam local with when it all goes to plan.

For me it's engaging gameplay. Hunter, hunted etc etc.

Doesn't matter if its' an "LP gatherer", neutral or 'nasty evil pirate'.

These changes remove gameplay options from everyone and that is not good.

first of all thank you for including large plexes in the regular FW spawn cycle we asked for it since inferno - a really nice change.

The other two changes however i really can't support. The problem is that they most likely will make plexing more annoying without fixing anything.

If you are after LP running or hiding is still more efficient than fighting, making running or hiding more difficult does not fix the problem its just a dirty way of dealing of the symptoms of the mechanics.

CCP has a history of fixing symptoms instead of the problem, for example if you look back what happened in inferno, plex layout changes like moving the beacon closer to the warpin or the requirement to kill the rat instead of tanking it did not help at all to motivate farmers to get out the vicious circle and use pvp ships (it really is the first step, if you don't do this you have no choice but running away).



A fix of the problem would NOT be to prohibit cloaks, or block stabs. It would be to penalize running or hiding. Sounds horribly complicated right? FEAR NOT ITS THE EASIEST FIX IN THE WORLD. I am sure nobody in the forums EVER suggested timer resets as most obvious fix to the problem. Kappa

So how would a CLEAN FIX OF THE PROBLEM look you ask? There are many many variations of the timer reset or rollback proposal. Here a few examples:
- timer ticks backwards in accelerated fashion till it reaches neutral state if a player waits in the plex
- timer ticks backwards till it reaches the neutral (normal speed) state if everything left the beacon
- timer resets immediately (imagine you could spend lp on the plex structure to reset it)
- ... just a few EXAMPLES

you say, hey thats not fair since i might waste so much time of my life plexing. FEAR NOT timer length is not set in stone.
- imagine someone would reduce timer length and payouts to balance the now fixed mechanics between EXPANSIONS

you say everybody would blob and i can't solo anymore (sidenote: i solo pvp at least 90% of my gametime)
- firstly, the nature of blobs is that they a) get killed by a larger blob or b) dissolve quickly since there is no other blob around
- secondly, having a blob you still won't be able to cover whole FW space. A route through all amarr systems alone has 32+ jumps, and thats half of the warzone. (cal-gal WZ is much larger btw) How often do you think a blob would fly this route?
- thirdly, crazy concepts like patrol gangs might actually work, you could defend (selected) systems or disrupt your opponent defending systems WITHOUT TRADING TIME 1:1 WITH FARMERS
- solo farming WILL STILL PERFECTLY WORK, all you would have to do is to use a pvp fit an pick a quiet system


so what would happen after implementing the MOST OBVIOUS FIX IN EVE HISTORY you ask?
- stabs, cloaks will serve the original purpose: protecting your ship but using them for make LP won't work anymore
- plexing will be a mechanic to create confilct and you would see more fights in them
- frigs will stick to novices, destroyers to small plexes and cruisers to medium plexes
- people will plex together in great joy, celebrating the new plexing mechanics

OMG the fix is PERFECT you say, do we still need the other stuff?
- actually no, rats, artificial rules like cloak inhibitors don't matter anymore, you could just remove them or keep them... doesn't matter

but you still want to EXPLOIT A BROKEN SYSTEM TO FARM LP WITHOUT RISK OR EFFORT you say?
- no problem m8. FW covers EVERYTHING. You can fly pve missions which allow you to complete them without NPC agro, 0 risk... you can cloak any time, watch a movie etc. Best of all: it doesn't influence sov and its the perfect solo mechanic DESIGNED TO BE NO CONFLICT DRIVER

but what if this change is made and it DOESN'T WORK (fictional, highly theoretical scenario - won't happen ever)
- luckily eve has now a new 6 week deployment model so you could implement the "we will monitor the situation and tweak the system later" - inferno - CCP Soundwave - before riot - promise with minimal effort


thanks for listening and thanks for the large plex change

What if players had to 'lock on/connect' to a FW capture point (like an orbital bombardment satellite) in order for it to count down?

Then you could tailor the sig radius of the capture point based on size, but it would also mean that stabbed players would not only have a little bit of a difficult time locking it along with killing NPCs, but they'd be forced to sit on top of it due to the range reductions of their fitted WCSs. Then stabbing and cloaking would be a mutually defeating fit because you couldn't be in range to capture with stabs, but also be able to quickly cloak.

So... 30km from timer... all farmer now will stay on 29km far away from timer structure, when they see some1 on scan they will move 500meters and cloak. nice fix... actually you remove ability for ppl who sit inside in plex and hunt for farmers. Before I can jump inside plex in cloak and kill damn stabed/cloaked farmer. Now cant if I wasnt jump inside before them. Still they will run cause are stabbed... Just block entrance with wcs/cloak if they arent stealth ships like | astero/stealth bomber/cover ops |. You fix nothing CCP. Shame on you, FW still ****** up totally for ppl who want fight. You create zone for farmers with cloak/warp stabs. You are farming on customers like they farming LP...

I quit FW today, nothing to do there.

ps. sorry for my bad english, that isnt my primary language :P

the most effective way to play the game will remain 'boring away the other player'

this makes a bad game.

A solo plexer will not try to fight when there is a huge possibility he is going to be outnumbered 6 to 1, who in their right mind would?

I've had a FW alt for a little over a year now and never before realized there were so many out there who simply dedicate their online time to killing a solo plexer.

Must be so damned boring.
Nearly as boring as being a plexer trying to avoid getting ganked in a plex by 5 or 6 hunters.

I gave up Pvp fitting plexing ships after 9 losses in plexes, only 1 of which was to another solo ship and he wasn't a FW player.
I do engage in Pvp - just not in plexes

FW should 1st be about FW and 2nd Pvp.
Currently, many FW players do little actual FW ,as much of the time they could be spending trying to flip systems and improve them for the faction they choose to fight for, is spent chasing or being chased by anyone who chooses to go hunting in FW space.
The same anyones who post in the forums about how they are being treated badly by plexing mechanics because they can't get the easy kills they pursue.
The cloaky who sits in a plex waiting for prey is possibly the worst of all. He is not contributing to FW and is simply hiding in wait for an appropriate target. If the target that lands in the plex has even a remote chance to win the fight he simply moves off - still cloaked with no fear of having to engage. I don't see how this is any different to a plexer fitting WCS's to avoid confrontation.

A solo plexer will not try to fight when there is a huge possibility he is going to be outnumbered 6 to 1, who in their right mind would?
If you are looking for Pvp there are systems with many in them that will oblige, if you want to Gank plexers then put up with the downside of knowing they will in 90% of cases run as soon as you appear on Dscan.

If you want to use a cloaky to kill plexers once this change comes into effect, fit your ship appropriately, Nanos in lows will give you the added speed to get in range fast enough when they enter the plex. It's only a matter of a few K's to get in range. Of course you will be reducing your Dps to do so but Eve is all about trade offs.

Pvp fit a, generally used T1 frigate and go run plexes, see how long it takes you to work out - fighting for plexes is most often not the right way to go.

Stop being terrible at pvp. You get the advantage of seeing what's coming. If they try to jump you with multiple ships, you have a massive head start if you're using dscan correctly. No hotdrops. Bigger ships can't come after you if you're in the correct plex size.....

I mean really, it gives solo and small gang a HUGE edge it doesn't have anywhere else.

Using short scan you have no advantage at all - 1 ship (tackle) enters plex 5 or 6 more sit at a warpin 15 Au off until the person in the plex is tackled..

Are you entirely unable to disengage against a single opponent to escape in the window after his friends appear on scan and before they appear on your grid after warping to the gate and activating it? This takes quite a bit of time.

I suggest you re-think the ships you fly and/or how you fly them.

Flying solo in 1v1 combat is never a guarantee, and knowing how to choose fights you can win and/or keeping an open avenue of escape is a big part of solo flying and one of its challenges.

It seems like you want guaranteed 1v1 arenas full of LP. This is not what FW is.

I am sorry, but perhaps you need to re-think your FW participation and head to some player-organized 1v1 tournaments instead.

You are correct - there are no guarantees in 1 v 1 combat but it is consensual, both parties have agreed to participate in a fight with a reward attached.
What FW is now - a multitude of plex farmers and plex farming alts, combined with a bunch of sad asses complaining because they can't kill them. If this is really what FW is supposed to be about then it is a useless mechanic. Which will continue to be used to farm LP for faction items.

Is your dislike of the idea of consensual Pvp in a plex based on a fear you may not win? No-one says you have to stay and fight, you are penalized if you don't though. I would think the "WCS Plexing is bad" group would welcome such a change.

How would my idea be bad for FW and PVP content in it?
If anything it would create more Pvp content.

I would like to hear your opinion of what FW is - You have stated what you think it isn't

Why do you say i should leave FW, I want to create content for FW, content that is available nowhere else in Eve. That is bad why?

Player organised 1 v 1 tournaments?? Do they still exist, the last few I saw advertised ended up being called off due to lack of participation. Plus, I don't spend 24/7 in eve in the hope someone decides to run a tournament.

As things stand now, I make enough out of plex farming with an alt and engage in Pvp when I want to. I see no reason to change this

PS; If you are unclear on my motives and how this could work to add to FW content, feel free to PM me, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

Nearly as boring as being a plexer trying to avoid getting ganked in a plex by 5 or 6 hunters.

FW should 1st be about FW and 2nd Pvp.

A mechanic that locks the gate when someone enters to contest a plex, I'll never fit stabs again.
Mechanic as it is that allows an unlimited amount into a plex to "contest", the stabs stay.

You seem to think there is a grand, overarching end-game for FW. There is not. It is an endless pendulum designed to provide a healthy environment for small-gang and solo PvP. Whether the participants in this PvP are factional or neutral is entirely irrelevant. If you want more meaningful sovereignty warfare there is a place for that.

Is fun being had with lots of ships being killed in FW regions? Job done.

Yeah actually just not being able to collect lp if your ship has a cloak/stab is pretty straightforward and simple way to increase risk while not hurting other forms of gameplay.

I agree with Sgt Ocker. Gated plexes should be locked to 1v1, large are suitable for small Gang.

This, is that simple. Stabs or ckoak equals 0 LP.

Problem solved.

You are correct - there are no guarantees in 1 v 1 combat but it is consensual, both parties have agreed to participate in a fight with a reward attached.
What FW is now - a multitude of plex farmers and plex farming alts, combined with a bunch of sad asses complaining because they can't kill them. If this is really what FW is supposed to be about then it is a useless mechanic. Which will continue to be used to farm LP for faction items.

Is your dislike of the idea of consensual Pvp in a plex based on a fear you may not win? No-one says you have to stay and fight, you are penalized if you don't though. I would think the "WCS Plexing is bad" group would welcome such a change.

You seem to think there is a grand, overarching end-game for FW. There is not. It is an endless pendulum designed to provide a healthy environment for small-gang and solo PvP. Whether the participants in this PvP are factional or neutral is entirely irrelevant. If you want more meaningful sovereignty warfare there is a place for that.

Is fun being had with lots of ships being killed in FW regions? Job done.

Overall, I agree with your wish to penalize people who run, as I have posted before in the thread. Timers ticking back up would be a good start for this.

As for your posts, I am merely "attacking" your notion that FW is an area for consensual PvP or that FW should be a place for somehow "honorable" 1v1s. It should not be. FW is essentially a forever war scenario, and in war everything goes. Overall, it does it quite well, and the fixes outlined by Fozzie are neither here nor there: More large plexes are good, the no cloaking thing is a complete miss. Not addressing stabs in any way is the bigger problem (I support the idea that WCS equipped ships should not be able to use acceleration gates - This also works to up the risk in other areas of EVE - Although with Mobile Depots, I guess people could just refit once inside, but that at least adds hassle to the process).

Finally, the issue with farming isn't that it is possible or profitable: Honestly, there should be decent ISK faucets for the lowsec crowd. It is that it affects the warzone far, far more than actual PvP at times due to the nature of the system and that it can be done with zero skill (pilot or toon) effort and at no actual risk by warp stabbed frigs with 1mil price-tag on an alt client that is alt-tabbed out to LoL.

But I am flying off on a tangent again and this post isn't very well constructed. My apologies for that.

I don't see why anyone would be against 1 v 1 fights in plexes, unless they don't want to have to fight 1 other ship alone and need friends.

No not problem solved at all.
This addresses nothing about FW.
It removes anyone who wishes to use Plexes to gain income.
No mouse or Farmer will stay to die of a blob leaping through the gate.
no one is stupid enough to commit suicide in a game for your amusement.
It does not solve faction warfare, it kills it.

I spend most of my time flying alone in FW space and I am entirely against such a change, despite me muttering "damn blobs" often enough.

I think that it will lead to more people running since they cannot bring their own backup. People are more likely to engage if they know their friends from next door can come to help and this provides more targets for people who can kill tackle, separate gangs, use deadspace to even the field or use plexes to bait enemy gangs into their own gang. Remove that, and at that point only the hardcore 1v1 crowd (and their links!) will bother to enter these plexes.

That, and farmers.

As unbelievable as it can sound to some people: There is no need to force 1v1s to happen with contrived mechanics. They are out there and can be found.

I could in principle support a 'Junior' plex which was locked to two people only. But I suspect it would be too easy to game with an alt to lock people of out your plex.

Easily enough to fix - 2 ships in a Junior -/ Novice plex = timer stops
The timer only counts down when there is 1 ship in the plex.

Limit ship type to T1 frigate and why not, for a more level playing field - block external assist ( no boosts in this type of plex)

And that exact scenario is why most plex farmers use stabbed ships.

No not problem solved at all.
This addresses nothing about FW.
It removes anyone who wishes to use Plexes to gain income.
No mouse or Farmer will stay to die of a blob leaping through the gate.
no one is stupid enough to commit suicide in a game for your amusement.
It does not solve faction warfare, it kills it.

Easily enough to fix - 2 ships in a Junior -/ Novice plex = timer stops
The timer only counts down when there is 1 ship in the plex.

Limit ship type to T1 frigate and why not, for a more level playing field - block external assist ( no boosts in this type of plex)

Cloaking prevention within capture range
To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

Perhaps we can make the cloaking change exclude covert ops cloaking devices? This way we can still use Recon ships and SoE ships tactically.

The exact scenario which leads to most plex farmers using stabbed ships is far more trivial: Because they can use stabbed ships and still make LP. It has nothing to do with blobs, since they are not there to fight in any case! In a perfect 1v1 world, the 3 day farming alt would still be stabbed, because it has about a snowball's chance in hell in case an actual engagement happens and because the person controlling it is not there to fight.

The system sort of rewards not fighting (warp off/cloak up, bore your "attacker" to death, proceed to capture the plex as if nothing happened) because there is no actual penalty to not fighting (unless you run across a persistent hunter who denies you the ability to plex across several systems without getting bored as hell), so people will not fight unless they are looking for fights in the first place.

Implementation wouldn't allow that kind of differentiation. Basically if you're within 30km of the button you're at 0km from the button.

Yeah actually just not being able to collect lp if your ship has a cloak/stab is pretty straightforward and simple way to increase risk while not hurting other forms of gameplay.

Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Tenth, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again

I think you misunderstand me. Make it so cloaking devices cant be used within 30km, but covert ops cloaking devices can be. Range isn't a factor, the type of cloak you use is.

3) Why do you feel that it is not okay to ban a single module that is designed purely to allow people to run but feel comfortable in all but eliminating over 10 ships who use covert op cloaks from use inside of plexes except now in very niche cases?

Thank you for the responses!

And that exact scenario is why most plex farmers use stabbed ships.
Most of the dedicated farmers I have met don't have backup so when someone enters Dscan range they leave, only to return once the threat is gone, to again sit on the button with no consequences.

I suppose it really comes down to, people who complain about wcs in plexes are only doing so because it simply doesn't suit them. They don't want anything more than to ban wcs from plexes and force others to play to their style. I want to kill something every time I enter a plex, remove WCS.

As for forcing solo pvp with contrived mechanics - Every mechanic is contrived, that is how mechanics come about. The mechanic that allows someone to call 20 friends in to help him in a novice plex because he is losing a 1 v 1 fight was once also contrived - but it now seems to be acceptable.

The run of the mill attitude in this and other threads like it seems to be, Change is good but only if it changes someone else's play style to make mine easier.

Fit prop mod, be closer than 30km almost instantly, profit? Most of those ships don't need to be inside 30, most people won't sit at 0 on the beacon so you can get closer than 30 sometimes and you can move once you decloak.

In a world without mobile depots that would work, but alas....

OK, I guess were just back to "timer won't run if your ship is fitted with a stab/cloak". I can live with that.

I was always a fan of the button structure locking you and putting an infinipoint on you out to 100km or so.

lets use navy harbs in these new larges said no one ever.

or 90% of the other bc's and commandships

make larges restricted.

unrestricted larges are useless. i can guarantee you nobody will be resubbing to die to arty nados