Er. Not that I wouldn't absolutely love for things to stay this way, but it is pretty game-breaking. A dozen of online arrays means you can barely have any hardeners or guns online. Similarly, a dozen of online arrays means you can't have a dozen of a different type of array also onlined.

Letting bonuses apply from offline structures means being able to just stick 40bil of arrays onto a single Minnie tower, offlining all but one of each kind, proceeding to online a mass of guns and hardeners, and still getting full bonuses for everything. I definitely wouldn't complain if you allowed that, but I also wouldn't consider it very fair to other players.

Personally, I no longer place a high priority on getting multiple starbase arrays to provide any bonus come Crius, as opposed to at some later date. I've found other ways of gaming that system, although they are a bit cumbersome. I doubt I reflect the opinion of most POS manufacturers on this one though.

Newly formed corporations will need to wait 7 days before being able to anchor Starbases. This is to inhibit players from immediately moving Starbase assets to another corporation if under a war declaration.

Arrgh dem starbases!

... Veldqual, you shall never compress again

Structure cost scaling - I will have to pay tax at my own starbase? (Haven't followed the discussion on this)

/c

So basically all we need to do is create a bunch of corporations now using alts so that players can immediately move starbase assets to another corporation so we can avoid war? EZPZ

I think this is just me being dumb but the Structure cost scaling but it says "This bonus is going to be a flat reduction on the whole job cost price" - is this the mineral cost of the job or reduction is tax etc to install the job?

I think this is just me being dumb but the Structure cost scaling but it says "This bonus is going to be a flat reduction on the whole job cost price" - is this the mineral cost of the job or reduction is tax etc to install the job?

So, I spent years grinding empire standings, a big part of the reason why, was so I could put up a POS on my high sec alt.

Whats the point of spending time grinding empire standing now?

CCP please don't make our years worth of standing useless!

So, I spent years grinding empire standings, a big part of the reason why, was so I could put up a POS on my high sec alt.

Whats the point of spending time grinding empire standing now?

CCP please don't make our years worth of standing useless!

So if the compressed ores will only need 100 of the base ores, where will that change be made? Will the compressed ores yield less than the current sheet indicates, or will the base ores yield less?

We are modifiying those so that starting local jobs in the same solar system the blueprint is in doesn't require any skill, while each level of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking increase job starting distance by 5 jumps, up to a total distance of 25 jumps. This reduces dependency on region boundaries which may actually be closer than 25 jumps in some cases.

Lowsec is getting a 10% material bonus for T2? That's close to 80 or 90 million ISK for certain ships! i.e. the entire profit margin.

Yields were also in the old dev blog

Whole and single items will not be affected by this calculation. This is most relevant for Tech I items required to manufacture Tech II variations. For example, building 10 Paladins will not require 9 Apocalypse if you have a 10% ME.

How did you arrive at 10% material bonus for T2 for low-sec only?

Edit: Guessing it is this part:
"10% reduction in manufacturing required materials and may only be anchored in low-security solar systems. It may only be used to build Capital Construction Components and Advanced Capital Construction Components."

The only T2 ship that this applies to is JF (ok, Blops use jump drives, but they are not a big part of the total cost). I am totally fine with low-sec getting a buff wrt JF manufacturing.

Structure cost scaling

Removing slots from industry jobs discourage players from stacking more than one Starbase structure of the same type at a Control Tower. To counteract this point, we are going to give specific bonuses when Starbase structures of the same type are stacked together at the same control tower.

This bonus is going to be a flat reduction on the whole job cost price, whose amount and total bonus varies depending on the Starbase structure itself.

Advanced Assembly arrays no longer 10% have material waste.

So you're saying that those yields are all based on the 100 units for compression? If so, that's a wonderful thing, but seems a little too good to be true.

A question regarding bpo's being currently researched.

So.. what happens to all the BPO's that are currently being researched in Eve. Lets say I have a 30 day ME research project going, and Crius drops....

What happens to the currently research BPO?

So you're saying that those yields are all based on the 100 units for compression? If so, that's a wonderful thing, but seems a little too good to be true.

The screenshot for the Thukker array says you can build T2 components and T3 components in it. The dev blog says capital & advanced capital only. Can you confirm which is correct?

Is there a real benefit to having 8 million different assembly arrays? Why not use this chance to combine arrays and stop confusing poor new people with component assembly arrays vs. subsystem assembly arrays vs. equipment assembly arrays?

Could I ask for some clarification on one point? I don't think I fully understand the change to Supply Chain Management (SCM) and Scientific Networking. Are you removing the regional restriction for starting RAM jobs remotely? For example, if I had SCM trained to 1, could I start a job in Muvolailen (The Citadel) from Jita (The Forge)?

Yes, regional limits are being removed. The new skills will just check for jump distance between blueprint and yourself.

I may be being useless but I can't find out what is planned (if anything) with Slots in Outposts, if you get rid of the slots what will the upgrades do?

I may be being useless but I can't find out what is planned (if anything) with Slots in Outposts, if you get rid of the slots what will the upgrades do?

So basically all we need to do is create a bunch of corporations now using alts so that players can immediately move starbase assets to another corporation so we can avoid war? EZPZ

Yes, regional limits are being removed. The new skills will just check for jump distance between blueprint and yourself.

I may be being useless but I can't find out what is planned (if anything) with Slots in Outposts, if you get rid of the slots what will the upgrades do?

For each previously-slot-improving outpost research upgrade, you'll similarly get a 0.9x multiplier to research job prices.

For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.

Does the Assembly Array stacking bonus apply to arrays of only one type, or can you mix and match in each category? e.g. will i need 13 Medium Ship Assembly Arrays, or can I have 12 MSAAs and 1 Advanced to get the same bonus to jobs in the advanced array?

Does it take jump bridges and wormholes into account?

sorry i had to ask :D

The finish researcha nd are delivered to where they would be pre patch, then the BPO goes thru the conversion from post research number to post patch number

it appears easy to work around the 7-day new corp anchoring restriction with an alt wardec contingency corp, allowing players to dissolve their corp to avoid a wardec and immediately put the starbase back up?

is it because you intend for there to be a workaround, that you don't think it's important, or is patching the workaround outside the scope of this set of changes?

Whole and single items will not be affected by this calculation. This is most relevant for Tech I items required to manufacture Tech II variations. For example, building 10 Paladins will not require 9 Apocalypse if you have a 10% ME.

They stack within the same category.

Thukker Component Assembly Array will only be able to build Capital and Advanced Capital Components, description is being fixed, thanks for pointing that out citizen.

Similar workarounds exist today; you can keep one or more alternate corps kicking around with their standings pre-baked. I suspect the change isn't to "fix" this problem, it's to maintain congruence with the way things are now. At least, that's what I was gunning for when I first suggested this idea months ago.

Think of it this way -- every alternate corp you have to evade wardecs requires at least one character to keep the corporation alive. How many plex per month is any given person willing to spend just to safeguard their corporation?

You just brought extra materials back.

What exactly is a "whole and single" item? (in term of invTypeMaterials and ramTypeRequirements?)

I thought you wanted to simplify the material calculations.

Yes, regional limits are being removed. The new skills will just check for jump distance between blueprint and yourself.

Interesting...



Let's pretend I'm a small scale T2 croozer manufacturer...

So, to get the full benefit to reduced job costs, I'm going to need a Large Caldari tower, with 50 component assembly arrays, to get a 25% edge on the install cost all my component jobs.

Now, I'm a small scale producer, so I'm not likely to run this sort of set up all month, every month. I'm going to want to throw in some other modules to do other jobs on my shiny new large pos. So there'll be 13 Medium Ship Assembly Arrays too.

When I want to switch back and forth between them, that's a lot of off-lining and on-lining to do, unless I sink more isk into pos costs and get me a second large tower - destroying my margins further. And then my head starts to hurt, because I'm trying to work out, how many jobs at 25% lpwer install cost am I going to need to run to break even on the pos fuel costs.

Have you any idea how cluttered my tower is going to be? I make it 63 assembly arrays alone... This is a profoundly messy game mechanic.

I think it was Fozzie that mentioned earlier about anchoring and onlining douchebag stuff

If we anchor and online several assy arrays before a job, then offline and unanchor after the job to save isk on install what repercussions will there be.

It was mentioned before in the previous thread and the threats were pretty broad, I just kinda want that updated in this thread before the 5675866758587587 questions get asked.

So basically all we need to do is create a bunch of corporations now using alts so that players can immediately move starbase assets to another corporation so we can avoid war? EZPZ

So, I spent years grinding empire standings, a big part of the reason why, was so I could put up a POS on my high sec alt.

Whats the point of spending time grinding empire standing now?

CCP please don't make our years worth of standing useless!

If the deccing corp has good intel and spies they will find those corps and dec them too.

Online / Offline array tricks: I also posted an idea in the Starbase thread and haven't noticed a definitive statement on how it will be handled. probag Bear re-stated the question in post #4 in this thread.

Timed restriction to anchor Control Towers

Newly formed corporations will need to wait 7 days before being able to anchor Starbases. This is to inhibit players from immediately moving Starbase assets to another corporation if under a war declaration.

My take is that a job consisting of X number of runs will require at least X number of units of each component; but I am not sure. The "whole" part makes me think that if a run requires 2.000000 units (not rounded, but "whole") of stuff then 20 runs need 40 units of stuff regardless of ME, but since that is quite a big difference from 36 units of stuff when running with 10% ME....argh, my head hurts.

Clarification from CCP is certainly needed. :)

That is not bad.
But may i suggest you increase cost reduction per structure for Small ship assembley arrays and Component/Equipment arrays. The total bonus should stay the same as in devblog, but there won't be a requirement to anchor 27 and 50 arrays. It seams to me, there are not many manufacturers (if any), who currently use so many arrays of these types on the same POS.

And would you be so kind to clarify, would the offline structures count towards the bonus or not.

Stacking Multiple Arrays in the POS is going to be such a clickfest.

Example: if i want max boost for research that's 13 labs.
1. 13 times to anchor
2. 13 times to online/offline if i want to change to other types of arrays
3. 13x7 (corp hanger divisions) = 91 divisions, which are unsearchable from assets tab, where my that bpc copy that was just delivered may be hiding, etc etc

It would be much better if we could just anchor one array and then upgrade it using some mix of isk and materials like we do with POCOs or in PI command centers. It could still take up the same power/cpu as 13 individual arrays but it wouldn't be a management nightmare.

No one is forcing you to take advantage of this mechanic. Especially since this mechanic isn't meant to be for "small scale" manufacturers; it's meant to somewhat preserve the current balance for large-scale manufacturers. If you don't already have multiple POSes up, you are not going to be particularly affected by the install cost changes.

Stacking Multiple Arrays in the POS is going to be such a clickfest.

Example: if i want max boost for research that's 13 labs.
1. 13 times to anchor
2. 13 times to online/offline if i want to change to other types of arrays
3. 13x7 (corp hanger divisions) = 91 divisions, which are unsearchable from assets tab, where my that bpc copy that was just delivered may be hiding, etc etc

It would be much better if we could just anchor one array and then upgrade it using some mix of isk and materials like we do with POCOs or in PI command centers. It could still take up the same power/cpu as 13 individual arrays but it wouldn't be a management nightmare.

Why does it cost to build things at a POS? I built the POS, I'm paying for fuel for it, why am I getting charged again to manufacture things?

The clever among us have pre-formed alt corporations. All this will do is make it so that alt corporations are formed far ahead of time for this specific purpose of avoiding the timer. Its mildly idiotic to have that restriction with that in mind. All you're doing is being an annoyance.

Edit: Also, dickstars. oh gods the dickstars...

the example given right in the same paragraph is very clear -- for tech II items the tech I component needed will alway match in number to the number of final items.

How could "For example, building 10 Paladins will not require 9 Apocalypse if you have a 10% ME." be any less than clear? You will alway need the 10 Apocalypses - one ship won't materialize out of thin air without a base item.

A module example: "For example, building 10 Damage Control IIs will not require 9 Damage Control Is if you have a 10% ME."

You have to pay the installation (or build) cost where ever you install jobs.

There's an additional 10% tax on top of that for NPC stations.

Yes, regional limits are being removed. The new skills will just check for jump distance between blueprint and yourself.

Can you confirm they will only be allowed to be anchored in lowsec and not nullsec?

So, not only will I put out a lot of ISK building a POS with modules, I'm getting taxed on my own production in my own POS (eg tax that is paid to SCC or something)? That sounds stupid...

really happy i didn't train that rorq pilot

NPC stations. Not POS, NPC stations. There's an additional 10% tax on NPC station jobs.

"In practice, this means that stacking 13 Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Assembly or Subsystem Assembly Arrays will reduce the total cost to start a manufacturing job at any of those structures by 26%."

So if there is no tax at my own POS - what's the deal with the bonus that gives me a reduction to cost? Or did I mistake that for like mineral reduction cost?

concerning the online/offline workarounds for the build cost bonus i would like to remind CCP off what they once told us:

no matter how boring, tedious or time consuming an activity is, if it's the most efficient/safest way of doing it, the players will do it.

If you allow people to take advantage of a 26% build cost advantage without having to risk 13 arrays of the same type because they can offline and unancher then during the job they will do it. they will get freighters with 12 arrays ready and do it every job.

I don't mind the bonus but i do if you can dodge the risk.

In an earlier post I mentioned the idea of changing from 13 arrays to a single array that had to be upgraded (13 times). This mechanic would prevent the hack you are describing here.

So... any news yet on the Rorqual since you're pretty much screwing them over with the compression changes? Like... you guys have any ideas where you are wanting to head with it? Or are you just gonna leave it as it is for years until you decide something should be done about it like 90% of the crap you do in game?

And yes... I'm bitter.

Reading through this thread, it appears that POS jobs will have an ISK-sink/payment to NPC cost requirement per job. I believe the multiple arrays will reduce that cost.

Jobs that are run at an NPC station will have an additional 10% tax added on to the total job cost as well as not being able to benefit from the multiple array bonus.

Which is why I was asking because this doesn't make sense to me then:

"In practice, this means that stacking 13 Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Assembly or Subsystem Assembly Arrays will reduce the total cost to start a manufacturing job at any of those structures by 26%."

So if there is no tax at my own POS - what's the deal with the bonus that gives me a reduction to cost? Or did I mistake that for like mineral reduction cost?

So my original statement that I will now be taxed at my own POS is correct?

Congratulations CCP, in your quest to REDUCE the amount of clicks required by Industrialists in the game, you have created a Golem of clicks in the form of stacking arrays for discounts. Just when I thought you were on the right track you pull defeat from the jaws of victory.

So my original statement that I will now be taxed at my own POS is correct?

I think many are forgetting where eve is heading storyline wise.

I've ready many posts about the faction standings no longer being taken into account being "game breaking" or "taking away from the immersion"

Remember capsuleers have defied the empire factions and are starting to do their own thing. This is another step in that direction in which the empire rules no longer matter.

Not necessarily agreeing with the stacking bonuses and mass components needed. I think the POS UI changes should've come first then have the ability similar to Outposts and install upgrades instead of having a ton of items floating around in space. Or having the POS work like ship fitting works to allow easier configuration and management of the POS. I can see steps going towards that direction just wonder of this 'enhancement' / change was a little cart before the horse.

Being a past industrialist I can agree with some of the insight and concerns brought up in regards to high sec industrialists. You have a good portion of your play base that just wants to run missions and or build something from the ground up. This puts more emphasis in high sec wars for the chances to get shiny BPO drops from POS bashing rather than fixing 0.0 sov mechanics and getting the fights out in lawless space. Empire space, even with the story line / developmental change should still be relatively safe for those that choose to play this game on a casual level.

Should be interesting to see how this plays out post-crius.

Those high sec players that you describe, particularly those liked to dabble in industry, are finished. Sure, they can make some product at who knows what cost, but there is zero chance of them being competitive with null sec or low sec hard core players.

All in favour of the "play with lots of alts, or die" trend.

Those high sec players that you describe, particularly those liked to dabble in industry, are finished. Sure, they can make some product at who knows what cost, but there is zero chance of them being competitive with null sec or low sec hard core players.

All in favour of the "play with lots of alts, or die" trend.

1. Jump costs were changed in anticipation of large towers being ditched for small ones because of removal of slots.
2. Large towers will now have an advantage because of cost reduction with multiple array stacking.
3. Jump cost change now redundant?

It depends GÇö what is the break even point for the amount of jobs you have to push through against the additional fuel cost of the tower? It probably won't be enough of a benefit for smaller industrialists to go whole hog large tower for maximum installation cost reduction.

How does something that is produced in Null and consumed in Null affect the production of High Sec? If you build something in Null you still have to get it to Jita to sell it, adding transportation cost and effort. Those few %s of advantage they have are quickly negated by transport cost.

This is not about the null sec changes however the potential of the cost scaling for production in high sec. As well that BPO's now have to be placed at risk in high sec for production and researching.

At what point is a POS supposed to be worth it?

I save 10% taxes, sure, but then I'm paying fuel costs instead. So if manufacturing costs are 10% of sell price (probably overestimating), I would need to produce 20bil/mo worth of goods at a small POS in order to make it worth it vs producing at an NPC station in the same system? That's a total of 27mil/hr...

Seems a little absurd, especially considering that manufacturing costs will probably (hopefully) be less than 10%.

Which is why I was asking because this doesn't make sense to me then:

"In practice, this means that stacking 13 Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Assembly or Subsystem Assembly Arrays will reduce the total cost to start a manufacturing job at any of those structures by 26%."

So if there is no tax at my own POS - what's the deal with the bonus that gives me a reduction to cost? Or did I mistake that for like mineral reduction cost?

At what point is a POS supposed to be worth it?

I save 10% taxes, sure, but then I'm paying fuel costs instead. So if manufacturing costs are 10% of sell price (probably overestimating), I would need to produce 20bil/mo worth of goods at a small POS in order to make it worth it vs producing at an NPC station in the same system? That's a total of 27mil/hr...

Seems a little absurd, especially considering that manufacturing costs will probably (hopefully) be less than 10%.

Previously, we would queue jobs in manufacturing/research slots when we ran out of empty slots, or because we were only allowed to use certain slots, or just out of consideration for the next guy.

Now, there will be a cost for installing jobs which presumably increases as the number of parallel/simultaneous jobs increase.

Will it be possible to run, say, 5 simultaneous job queues of two 12-hour jobs per queue instead of 10 simultaneous jobs at 12 hours each? This means 5 jobs would complete in 12 hours and the other 5 jobs would complete in 24 hours instead of the 10 simultaneous jobs that all complete in 12 hours for (theoretically) twice the cost? It can be important for many of us to time the completion of jobs to correspond with our gaming times.


In Hisec, Lowsec, and NPC Null, the "taxes" you pay theoretically get sent to the resident governing body. To whom are these "taxes" being paid in Sov Null and especially in Wormhole space? Neither Concord, nor SCC, nor any empire body has any standing or presence in Sov Null or wormhole space; the residents see to that.

Will industry in Sov Null POSes/Outposts and in W-space POSes also require some form of ISK payment to some ethereal empire presence to start jobs?

At what point is a POS supposed to be worth it?

I save 10% taxes, sure, but then I'm paying fuel costs instead. So if manufacturing costs are 10% of sell price (probably overestimating), I would need to produce 20bil/mo worth of goods at a small POS in order to make it worth it vs producing at an NPC station in the same system? That's a total of 27mil/hr...

Seems a little absurd, especially considering that manufacturing costs will probably (hopefully) be less than 10%.

I think many are forgetting where eve is heading storyline wise.

I've ready many posts about the faction standings no longer being taken into account being "game breaking" or "taking away from the immersion"

Remember capsuleers have defied the empire factions and are starting to do their own thing. This is another step in that direction in which the empire rules no longer matter.

While I appreciate the risk/reward system of thinking, forcing industrial corporations to store their BPO's in the POS is high on the risk side and low on the return side. A POS isn't all that difficult to take down so why would anyone store their corporations assets in harms way?

So... any news yet on the Rorqual since you're pretty much screwing them over with the compression changes? Like... you guys have any ideas where you are wanting to head with it? Or are you just gonna leave it as it is for years until you decide something should be done about it like 90% of the crap you do in game?

And yes... I'm bitter.

While I appreciate the risk/reward system of thinking, forcing industrial corporations to store their BPO's in the POS is high on the risk side and low on the return side. A POS isn't all that difficult to take down so why would anyone store their corporations assets in harms way?

This will turn contracts or market into a shopping list of items and corporations to POS bash just to see what falls out. If pushing industry corps out of the game, simply annex all of high sec, end any manufacturing or research and get it over with so we can all move on.

A large POS is currently cost-effective for one character, using all 10 manufacturing slots and no science slots, making T1 items with terrible, sub-par, profits. POS bonuses are already insanely strong. And they're getting stronger.

Except that it's now going to cost a significant chunk of change on top of the fuel costs in order to manufacture things.

Neat little chart with info:
rug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% per max'ing at 25%

There needs to be an ISK sink in every game activity, to spread the sinking of ISK evenly. Wouldn't want one category of player complaining about how other's get off scot-free, would we?

Or are you asking for a "back story" reason?

How did you guys come up with these numbers?

I ground up to standing 8.0!

'I built this factory! Why should I have to pay for any workers or upkeep?!'

With Crius, the next EVE Online release to be published on July 22nd, major changes will come to Industry and with that you will also see tweaks and changes related to player-owned starbases (POS).

A brief overview of the most important changes:

• Reprocessing POS Arrays will change and be more efficient
• Compression Arrays will be introduced
• Other industry related Arrays (eg. for research, invention and manufacturing) will receive a bonus for each additionally similar structure anchored at the same POS
• Faction standing requirements to anchor POS are removed
• Starbase Defense Management skill requires only Anchoring 4 instead of Anchoring 5

Much more information and all the details are available in CCP Ytterbium's latest dev blog Starbase changes for Crius.

So despite many pages from a large group of industrial players informing CCP this was a bad idea and players canceling subscriptions,
CCP intends to ignore a large group of players to placate a small group that the industrial players actually enable.

Bad Business Plan. Good Luck with maintaining a game or company when your customers leave.

Just wondering why we don't have, or if we will ever get MINERAL compression in addition to Ore Compression.

Also wondering when we will get a balance to the haulers so that you reprocessed Ice Products can fit in a Kryos, or LO can be 'ammo' if a cyno is fit.

Some reason I feel like I'm getting F@#$# in the ass. So glad I spent the last year grinding out a 8.0 faction standing with Caldari.

So what does that give me now? A good hand shake.. now any Tom **** or Hairy Gallentee scum can put up a tower in Caldari Space.. Also I feel like as a newly minted solo POS owner I'm getting F@#$#@ed.

So, what your are telling me is to get any worthwhile reduction to the extra job cost, i'm gna need to anchor (and keep online) 50 (FIFTY!!!) of each of those arrays at the same tower?!!?!?!???

Is that even possible? That sounds like one of the more bassackwards ideas i've yet to read about related to Crius. Have fun sorting through that list of POS arrays to build from in that tiny little section of the new Industry UI.

-edit-
Umm, just ran the numbers on the example of "13 medium ship arrays"....yeah...thats 2.6m PG and 6.5M CPU Good luck with that.

How did you guys come up with these numbers?

The sink is fuel and risk of loosing pos and arrays. Why pos manufacturing at starbase need more than one sink?

So despite many pages from a large group of industrial players informing CCP this was a bad idea and players canceling subscriptions,
CCP intends to ignore a large group of players to placate a small group that the industrial players actually enable.

Bad Business Plan. Good Luck with maintaining a game or company when your customers leave.

defenseless tower in a 0.9 packed with arrays is the new thing. the result should be obvious

Structure cost scaling

Removing slots from industry jobs discourage players from stacking more than one Starbase structure of the same type at a Control Tower. To counteract this point, we are going to give specific bonuses when Starbase structures of the same type are stacked together at the same control tower.

Will it be possible to run, say, 5 simultaneous job queues of two 12-hour jobs per queue instead of 10 simultaneous jobs at 12 hours each? This means 5 jobs would complete in 12 hours and the other 5 jobs would complete in 24 hours instead of the 10 simultaneous jobs that all complete in 12 hours for (theoretically) twice the cost? It can be important for many of us to time the completion of jobs to correspond with our gaming times.

Not necessarily... pending any developer clarification of questions raised in post #4 on the first page: you may not need to have all those arrays online. You might be able to have a deathstar fully online, packed with arrays that are mostly offline.

They stack within the same category.

Worst statement I have ever seen, you don't see infinite CPU/PG on POS towers to stack specific arrays, In addition anyone has big pile of BPO/BPC he will be only manufacturing the highest IPH item he can produce so I don't see us stacking 10 drones assembly and 20 small ship arrays and we keep anchoring and onlining and offlining these every time we have something new on the menu.

Oh god, just made me remember writing and properly explaining all the industry changes in the Crius patch notes is going to make my head hurt I'll have CCP Greyscale do it instead, somehow.

Somebody has obviously never flooded an entire market so badly that they couldn't produce in it at a profit for a while.

Again, you aren't forced to do this. Every single bit of Crius keeps on emphasizing and re-emphasizing that you can do things cheaper by being smart (about where/how/what/when you build) than by tossing massive capital around. The industrial landscape will be varied enough that not taking advantage of stacking structures is not going to make one non-competitive. This entire mechanic is being implemented with large-scale manufacturers in mind, those who already have multiple POSes and dozens upon dozens of arrays.

[quotes snipped]

Infinite slots + stacking multiple arrays of same type to lower manufacturing fees = poor design judgment and lazy solution.

If you tell me it takes into consideration all types of online arrays, I'll accept it...more types of different arrays means bigger POS tower means your industry business is capital, which should reduce the manufacture fees. Stacking same array when you are going to use only one...sorry this dumb.

After talking with CCP Greyscale, we'd like to redirect you to this blog.

Specifically:




Oh god, just made me remember writing and properly explaining all the industry changes in the Crius patch notes is going to make my head hurt I'll have CCP Greyscale do it instead, somehow.

Please let up upgrade arrays like command centers! If you have an array online and one of the same type in your cargo present an upgrade button in the right click menu. Apply upgrade, array in cargo disappears and the online array gets the bonus and higher powergrid and CPU needs. No need for downgrading. It also forces people to keep all arrays (commit the CPU and PG) online for the whole duration of the job.

Offlining and onlining dozens of arrays is just like the clickfest we have now (maybe worse).

'I built this factory! Why should I have to pay for any workers

or upkeep?!'

Considering how easy it is to bypass the limitation, POS standing limitations were bad complexity, limiting mostly newbie, and disinventivizing allowing newbies into corp.

A POS benefit people might not have noticed:

If your POS is in a system without any industrial options, the number of hours of industry in that system will be lower. Which reduces your build costs. Exactly how that works out depends how many of the 2.5 billion minutes of jobs per month are done in system.

Ore, ices and gas clouds may now be mixed together at the same time inside the structures GÇô but modules cannot be moved inside the Reprocessing Arrays.

Moreover, Control Towers will now be anchorable in previously restricted solar systems like 0.8 and above.

Removing the standings requirements without making any other changes to POS mechanics/requirements is a horrible idea.

Now any large corp or alliance can go around and wardec smaller corps, kill their POS and then "grief" the site by putting up an offline POS they never intend to use. They could literally put up hundreds and then hide behind the sheer cost of warrdeccing them to hold the spots.

There needs to be some barrier, limit or challenge to erecting a POS in high sec unless your idea of an "industry change" is having to join a large alliance or coalition to keep your POS (sound familiar?).

Or having entire solar systems filled with offline control towers. The offline control tower problem is bad enough now and really needs to be addressed anyway.

I don't want running a POS in high sec to be risk free. But I don't want the "POS ownership" landscape in High Sec looking like an SOV map either.

At the very least please at least consider buffing the POS defenses to make them more defendable by small active corps before you make this change.

You are missing the point where CCP hates casual players, individual players, and even small groups non-aligned with the null sec cartels. If you look at these changes from that context, this overhaul makes sense.

So... any news yet on the Rorqual since you're pretty much screwing them over with the compression changes? Like... you guys have any ideas where you are wanting to head with it? Or are you just gonna leave it as it is for years until you decide something should be done about it like 90% of the crap you do in game?

And yes... I'm bitter.

Now any large corp or alliance can go around and wardec smaller corps, kill their POS and then "grief" the site by putting up an offline POS they never intend to use. They could literally put up hundreds and then hide behind the sheer cost of warrdeccing them to hold the spots.

[quote=cellestron]

4) what is the maximum number of man-hours a large alliance (let's call them "Goonswarm" for the purposes of this exercise) would be willing to devote to shooting useless empire pos

Removing the standings requirements without making any other changes to POS mechanics/requirements is a horrible idea.

Now any large corp or alliance can go around and wardec smaller corps, kill their POS and then "grief" the site by putting up an offline POS they never intend to use. They could literally put up hundreds and then hide behind the sheer cost of warrdeccing them to hold the spots.

There needs to be some barrier, limit or challenge to erecting a POS in high sec unless your idea of an "industry change" is having to join a large alliance or coalition to keep your POS (sound familiar?).

Or having entire solar systems filled with offline control towers. The offline control tower problem is bad enough now and really needs to be addressed anyway.

I don't want running a POS in high sec to be risk free. But I don't want the "POS ownership" landscape in High Sec looking like an SOV map either.

At the very least please at least consider buffing the POS defenses to make them more defendable by small active corps before you make this change.

So... any news yet on the Rorqual since you're pretty much screwing them over with the compression changes? Like... you guys have any ideas where you are wanting to head with it? Or are you just gonna leave it as it is for years until you decide something should be done about it like 90% of the crap you do in game?

And yes... I'm bitter.

well... yes.

Some global job cost scaling effect with modifiers from local system manufacturing job numbers.

What prevented this in the current system? The will of a large player to sit on an alt with good standings? You think an entity that ***** billions a month per r64 moon is intimidated by this stupid, nonsensical, useless requirement?

Suggestion:
OK - you want to give players variability in manufacture costs. This step will force players to start manufacturing on POSes. Instead of stacking structures, give the players possibility to change CPU and PG requirements for the structure. So onlined structure with minimal requirements has (for example) 50K PG / 100 CPU and gives 0% manufacturing cost bonus. Player decide to manufacture the most eficiently, so he change the requirements of this structure to 500K PG / 1000 CPU and receives 25% bonus in manufacturing. Here is only one structure to handle with. Much less click fest with structure management. Easy to change settings (no anchoring, moving, etc with structures) / more time to do somethnig else. Wardec corporations still will be able to figure out who is manufacturing at low costs and wardec him (they will see how many structures on the POS is online and will be able to count PG / CPU consuption). I know that POSes code is not optimized and you are working on rebuilding it, but this could not be so big change to base program code.........

can someone remind me again why are we removing slots from stations and pos structures? what are the reasons?

its like me buying a car and pay for the fuel for it operation but i have to pay so i can drive it around

I do believe that shooting an anchored but unfueled POS shouldn't require a wardec, and that without fuel or stront, the resists/HP should get nerfed.

Cleanup of space junk should be fast and easy.

I am still a bit confused as to the "logic/lore" that supports BPOs not being usable remotely, when the precedent for remote data usage is very well founded in the eve-universe. such as clone/jump clone tech. Schematics would be much easier and more viable to transfer than consciousness.

+1

Stacking Arrays is the biggest issue with this release. It really does seem like this was a lazy hack to make large towers valuable and prevent everyone from down sizing to small towers. CCP take the time to to things right!

I do believe that shooting an anchored but unfueled POS shouldn't require a wardec, and that without fuel or stront, the resists/HP should get nerfed.

Cleanup of space junk should be fast and easy.

some big industrialists that produce in a pos, probably have 20-30b of materials suspended in assembly. Has CCP considered making some materials recoverable should the operator cancel the production (maybe similar to the losses on reprocessing modules[compression nerf]) this would give attentive operators the chance to recover items from longer builds, at a loss.

You are very wrong. It both requires a war dec to avoid CONCORD in high-sec and a large fleets worth of DPS to get through an offline stick in a timely fashion. Here's an example of a kill of an offline large caldari tower. https://zkillboard.com/kill/39502120/

However a change that makes offline POS easier to blow up would be a very good change indeed!

Read my post again.

I know it's a pain in the *** to shoot offline towers, hence my suggestion.

First of all I am not calling anyone out. Those are your words not mine. Pretty much any large group could do it.

This question right here is my point. Post-Crius high-sec POS will no longer be "useless".

As far as the rest of your questions...currently Pre-Crius there is no point. Post-Crius there will be. Will it be worth it to do so? I don't know. But I don't really want to find out.