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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:29:00 -
[841]
from the looks of it the harbinger and hurricane are a lot more balanced towards each other now. the harbinger finally has a damage advantage to show for the higher fitting + the capneed of its guns.
now the drake on the other hand seems to have been hit a bit hard. while i wouldnt say a kinetic missile bonus is useless (its certainly a few times better than an em-missiles bonus) it seems a bit much to change the bonus and remove a laucher at the same time.
so maybe 5% rof and 6 launches?
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:30:00 -
[842]
*copied from the R.I.P. thread. probly shoulda just stuck this here to begin w/
well, looks like some swings of the bat have been made since i last was forum wh**ing.
at first i wanted to spit at my monitor: "WHY!?!? , gimmie my **** turret and PG back!"
then i tried to look at the whole thing a bit more subjectively....
Fact of the matter is, we all have high hopes for our respective race's new BC's. That being said, i think the way the drake and the hurricane were before was too much of a threat as replacing current battlefield juggernaughts. They were overpowered a bit.
They were **** near battleships in every sense of the word. I wish i was gonna get uber pwnage w/ my hurricane, BUT I was not being biased as that ship was my own race.
However, the drake was right up there w/ her, and since it belonged to another race, it was easy for me to see it was overpowered. If it got the bat, i can understand why minnie's got the bat too.
I dont think we want a tech I ship that can **** near out perform the next class above it, and its tech II cousins. In the end i think this will probly be for the best. (omg i cant believe i just said that)
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Lobo Noturno
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:45:00 -
[843]
Well, I have to go back and test everything again...
I wish Tux had not hit the hurricane the way he did. I still feel it wasn't overpowered, just fitted the part perfectly, like the Rokh. On the other hand, the Drake needed a nerf, although I feel it was too much.(perhaps if they fix the penalty stacking of the t2 ammo...) Tux ended up nerfing the drake DPS, when the real problem was the drake tanking capability... I hate the rof -> kin dmg bonus change, but I think it's in line with other caldari missile ships. But having just 6 missile turrets, compared to the five the ferox can use...(I hoped the ferox would gain one more turret, and the drake could keep it's 7 missile launchers, with a little less pg to gimp the tanking)
Glad to see the Myrmiddon wasn't touched.(sarcastic...) need to check the extra cap on the harbinger(that thing run dry with an amazing frequency...)
Lobo
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.16 22:46:00 -
[844]
Thing is, caldari is lacking any ship of the battlecruiser size.
Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks.
Vulture? pretty good tank compared to other CSs but it's damage is practically non existant.
Nighthawk? The perhaps one of the ****tiest CSs in the game, the recent change in kali makes the nighthawk still the worst but not AS far behind the game.
Was the drake a tad overpowered? Maybe a TAD when using jav HAMs, however when your not using jav HAMs it was fine. Was the drake a MONSTER? No, the DPS of the drake wasn't as high as the other t2 BCs. It did have good a good tank - not command ship good, but still good.
Perhaps give the launcher back? Keeping it at 6 launcer and giving the rof back could work. Maybe put it back into 7 launchers/rof bonus and give it 4/5 mids with no shield bonus. You need to give it something - In its current state it just sucks, plain and simple.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:17:00 -
[845]
Today we came here to say last goodbye to our fellow drake. He will join his ancestors in haven of worst BC class ships in eve.
Rest in peace.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:26:00 -
[846]
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight
Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks.
or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun?
minnie nerf? we will surive, we actually pilot our ships, we adapt both on and off the field (no adapting doesn't mean changing ammo) caldari nerf? may the streets flow with your tears
the changes were justified.
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Protunia
Gallente Horadrim
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:29:00 -
[847]
Edited by: Protunia on 16/11/2006 23:30:12 Too many of you did not want to boost the weakest link so now you get the nerf bat :) dont cry you had your chance to work things out but were too selfish in the end.
Its a good thing that all BC's are closer now. My Character Stats |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:32:00 -
[848]
Could anybody place damage graph for updated Drake nerf? I like to see how Caldari sucks. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Areconus
Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.17 00:01:00 -
[849]
Originally by: Zixxa Could anybody place damage graph for updated Drake nerf? I like to see how Caldari sucks.
Add the hurricane to your sig plz
Gloria Stitz-
"Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously" |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.17 00:02:00 -
[850]
ok but don't say anymore that i'm a liar noob
drake: old vs new
note, this is the base difference whitout damage mods, more the mods higher the difference
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Viictoria
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Posted - 2006.11.17 00:53:00 -
[851]
Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight
Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks.
or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun?
minnie nerf? we will surive, we actually pilot our ships, we adapt both on and off the field (no adapting doesn't mean changing ammo) caldari nerf? may the streets flow with your tears
the changes were justified.
Hahaha this was cute. But seriously, when Caldari missile ships get the ability to actually, you know, move... then you can say they don't deserve to do damage while standing still.
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.17 01:10:00 -
[852]
Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight
Ferox? Its a gunboat that everyone uses as a missleboat because its primary role sucks.
or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun?
minnie nerf? we will surive, we actually pilot our ships, we adapt both on and off the field (no adapting doesn't mean changing ammo) caldari nerf? may the streets flow with your tears
the changes were justified.
Scared to look at a railgun? I've tried a railgun ferox, theres a reason why not many use it as a gunboat. Take away all but one launcher or all the launchers and add like two turrets then I would change my opinion on the ferox.
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Atar
Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.17 01:34:00 -
[853]
Ya know it's not very often I get mad at a game or something done to a game, because it's just that but screwing up the hurricane, yeah that's just pitiful... I really hope people don't let this one die.
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Denrace
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.17 01:39:00 -
[854]
Originally by: HankMurphy
or maybe half the race doesn't know how to fly its ships cause they have been so pampered w/ fire and forget they are scared to even look at a railgun?
Dude - youre going about it the wrong way.
Reason people fit missiles on a Ferox is that with rails you have PATHETIC DPS.
Less than a bleeding Thorax, mate.
Rails on a brutix with the extra 2 guns plus a damage bonus means its a better sniper. Just fit a tracking computer or two and bingo, same range as a Rox - but like double the DPS.
A Ferox is a HORRID gunship.
Den ________________________________________
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Logan Xerxes
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.17 02:13:00 -
[855]
Great, now the Caldari have all of their BC's being useless again, just like before!
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.17 02:15:00 -
[856]
Stop teef! :o ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
LordZer00
Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.17 02:45:00 -
[857]
Can't help but wonder what happened to the concept of having the tier 2 Bc's be 'more gank, less tank' oriented.... Drake is now, like the Ferox, All tank and no gank... great... Another frigate killer, just what we needed.
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.17 02:54:00 -
[858]
Frankly I'm extremely disappointed in the Drake/Hurricane nerf. Why did they have to wreck two perfectly good ships instead of just buffing the other two? All the Myrmidon needed was 250m3 of drone space, and the Harbinger needed 7.5% damage bonus per level, and everything would have been fine.
Because I said so...
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Protunia
Gallente Horadrim
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:12:00 -
[859]
from what i have been reading thats simply not the truth.
those two had **** near the ability to bring down a BS on their own. Sorry I dont think we need BC's that cost less than a BS taking out BS's 1 on 1. As it is 2 on 1 for sure they will take them down.
The other thing was alot of people simply would not give in to letting the drone bay be increased on the myr so the only other choice was to reduce the others to the level of the myr.
Again people did this to them selves not being honest and trying to hard to get the upper hand with the new ships.
thats too bad maybe next time My Character Stats |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:17:00 -
[860]
Originally by: Protunia from what i have been reading thats simply not the truth.
those two had **** near the ability to bring down a BS on their own. Sorry I dont think we need BC's that cost less than a BS taking out BS's 1 on 1.
You have obviously been reading posts by people who need a clue. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
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Protunia
Gallente Horadrim
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:29:00 -
[861]
Come you know they were over powered stop playing dumb here. Even the MOD here said they were over powered.
Anyhow After reading all the boasting going on over the last weeks I for one am glad they nerfed em. In the end they will be balanced ALL 4 of the new BC's.
The game will be much better off for it.
My Character Stats |
James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:30:00 -
[862]
Edited by: James Draekn on 17/11/2006 03:30:55 I really wish the Developers of this game would actually listen to what the PLAYERS want and balance from there. Players have been asking for a cheap version of their race's HAC. Ships that compete with a battelship for firepower but tanks alot poorer (what BC are in real life). Their disadvantages being that they are slower and have the sig of battleship (this needs to be balanced). That said, lets lay out the fixes that have been proposed to make ALL BC effective for their mission type. (I added a few changes for amarr to add variety to their ship line).
CALDARI
Ferox: + 2 turret slots and the grid to enable it to fit 250mm rails, -2 missile slots. This makes it a true railgun platform (adjust CS accordingly). Right now this ship doesn't perform its true role properly, but it makes a awesome tanker. Adjust shield recharge rate.
Drake: You had it right when you introduced it. 7 missiles, period (adjust CS accordingly). Balance out the HAMS, since they aren't balanced. Change the resist bonus to a 7.5% shield boost bonus. The only needed adjustment that this ship required was to have its shield recharge rate fixed. Adjust shield recharge rate.
Gallente
Brutix: Increase capacitor ammount and increase powergrid to allow it to at least fit 7x ion 2's, MWD, Med Armor rep, CAP BOOSTER, decrease sig radius, mass, increase base speed
Myrmidon: Where to start, 6 turrets (unbonused) 5 mids 6 lows 5% armor resists per level 10% drone Damage per level 250m3 or greater drone bay Decrease mass, and sig radius, this is supposed to OUTLAST thats why I suggest the resists, the developers added a turret but forgot about the drone bay. This is a DRONE ship make it useful as such. Right now it is neither a drone boat (doesnt have replacements or decent damage), or a gun boat (turrets not bonused). The Gallente want a decent drone boat.
Amarr
FIXING lasers: EM component of damage on all lasers should be no higher then 60% on the longest range crystals. A more balanced approach would be to start at 60% thermal/40% EM for the closest range crystals and increase the EM component % as the crystal range increases. Since fights last longer now adjust the skill CONTROLLED BURSTS to be 10% per level to turret capacitor consumption, and adjust all amarr ship laser capacitor consumption bonuses to 7.5%
Prophecy: +5 missile slots, more capacitor ammount and grid, since amarr are kind of limited on variation make it a split layout with 8 highs 6 turrets/6 missiles. Gives amarr players a bit of variety, and another missile platfom for this class of ships.
Harbringer: +1 turret, Up the grid to allow it to fit 8 turrets, increase the capacitor ammount to allow it to be a better active tank, laser cap problem fixed with above suggestion.
Minmatar
Cyclone: +3 launchers, + 1 turret, up the grid a bit, lower the mass, increase capacitor slightly, lower sig radius. Makes this ship a 6 turret/ 6 missile, very versatile ship.
Hurricane: You had it right when you introduced it....... And the rule is.....
If its not broken, don't mess with it. But to adjust it a bit for the changes, lower its mass slightly
And yes I BOOSTED all the BC, I didn't nerf them. This makes the entire class a cheap option to battleships. They all fullfil the roles assigned to them, it adds 2 new missile BC options, just not as good as the Caldari's. This also allows smaller corporations to field viable fleets with decent damage versus rich corporations.
Please listen to what the players want, boost the other ships up to make them work along side of the ones players like. Rather then turn the ones people like into crap. These suggestions combine alot of good ideas to bring this ENTIRE class of ships into its own.
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:34:00 -
[863]
You guys can thank Selene for the Drake nerf as he whined to a dev about it at fanfest. Fun fact: Selene also owns a Cereberus BPO
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:39:00 -
[864]
Edited by: keepiru on 17/11/2006 03:40:55
Originally by: Protunia Come you know they were over powered stop playing dumb here. Even the MOD here said they were over powered.
I hope you mean dev, mods aren't more qualified than you or I.
As for the whether the person in question was right or not - i have terrible news for you, not even eve devs hold the candle of absolute tru7h - there's a fine line between balancing a ship and making it crap.
And I'll reinstate what I said. Any BS pilot who loses a ship to a Command Ship, let alone a tech I BC, is a either a nub or was asleep at the wheel.
Also, you've just proved you need to buy yourself a clue if you really believed that, even if your following statement didn't prove that you have no right to make comments on these ships:
Originally by: Protunia Anyhow After reading all the boasting going on over the last weeks I for one am glad they nerfed em.
Did you fly them? No. So you haven't got a clue of what you're talking about, like the majority of the people on these forums.
Every single post about the drake was either relating to Javelin HAMs, which are still just as broken and give a cerberus heavy electron blaster damage @ 150km, or Drake setups with 6-slot tanks, which due to the rather obvious lack of any way to hold your enemy, will only kill someone if they're asleep.
Originally by: Protunia In the end they will be balanced ALL 4 of the new BC's.
The game will be much better off for it.
I hope you don't mean balanced like the Ferox, which is to say useless to everyone but NPCers. nubs, and people who run setups that don't use 1 or more of the ship's bonuses. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
Protunia
Gallente Horadrim
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Posted - 2006.11.17 03:49:00 -
[865]
In truth I see alot of people playing their own angle into these new BC's. Some are more honest then others and some are well... they have their own agenda.
I have read through all the posts including many who tested both with and against the new BC's.
From all the info I basically see some people looking for a new gank ship and will protect it even if they have to distort the truth. I see others unwilling to admit other New BC's are gimps compared to the others.
Wether or not I test them or not has no bearing on what i would like to see. I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period. I also know that I want them all to be fairly EQUAL.
So yeah based on what I have read from all of you I see this nerf as a good start to balancing these ships.
If they buffed the other two then I thin k you would have had to start buffing BS's then..........then........
No sense in making a situation where you have to change the entire game because of 2 ships. better off to bring them down and then test again and see where they stand.
As far as the over nerfing goes well see about that After they have been tested and compared. If ones horribly weaker than the others then sure give it a small bump.
But if they test fairly close then leave them were they stand. My Character Stats |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.17 04:16:00 -
[866]
Originally by: Protunia I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period.
...
tell me, how exactly is a ship with 1/2 the dps and half the tank going to solo a BS?
because that's what the best of the BCs have.
if you seriously believe even for a second that a realistic setup with speed mod, web & scram could have taken on a BS and gotten anything but a freshly-drawn pint of OMGWTFPWN, you're delusional.
i'll draw you a graph of the harbinger (highest damage BC) vs your typical close-range bs so you can realize the exact extent of the stupidity of such a claim.
Linkage
Look at that and tell me exactly a ship with 65% the damage, half the tank, half the HP, half the cap, and 75% the signature radius is going to kill a BS, unless the BS pilot rides the short bus? ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.11.17 04:18:00 -
[867]
My suggestions would allow them to have decent firepower, but no BS should go down to them solo. I'm not looking for omgBBQpwn machines, I just want the ENTIRE class, all 8 ships to be viable damage dealers at the expense of a awesome tank. If you have ever attacked a Raven firing torps while flying a Brutix you'll understand. BC just don't have the hitpoints to deal with that kind of firepower. What i'd like to see is ships that compete on the market with HAC's. Cheaper, slower, less resists then a HAC, but something that can do that kind of damage. That is why people loved the Drake and Hurricane, but said that the Myrmidon and Harbringer needed a boost. We need options to allow pilots with lower skills, and bank accounts to fly a ship with good damage that is insurable. I can fly every tech 1 BC in the game. I love this class of ships. I actually hate flying Battleships, to big and slow. I want to see balance, that is where my suggestions come from. Not from the attitude of, "make my races ships the omgBBQpwn." I just don't like that the answer is always nerf it or "its pre-nerfed." Because CCP has a track record of taking 12-18 months to fix KNOWN problems with ships. So pre-nerfing a ship makes them unpopular and unusable. Good example is when the Drake was introduced on the test server. The Ferox is a railboat, did it get its addition +2 turrets and grid to fix the role it just lost as a missile boat? Have the drone bugs been fixed in the last year? To both of these, the answer is no. This is why nerfing things down and pre-nerfing is getting old. Problems put into the game take a backseat to content release. When they introduced the new BC it required them to evaluate the old ones and adjust them, or the old ones become obsolete. It didn't happen. I put together a bunch of suggestions that I have read here and thought about, and adjusted the WHOLE class. The damage coming from Battlecruisers should closely match that coming off of their respective HAC's, if not exceed it. I also added the suggestions to fix the problems laser users face. Lets face it if we are seriously testing KALI, lets get some actual improvements on alot of the issues facing this class as a whole.
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Kashre
Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.17 04:20:00 -
[868]
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Protunia I know for a fact I do not want to see a BC that can take on a BS period.
...
tell me, how exactly is a ship with 1/2 the dps and half the tank going to solo a BS?
because that's what the best of the BCs have.
if you seriously believe even for a second that a realistic setup with speed mod, web & scram could have taken on a BS and gotten anything but a freshly-drawn pint of OMGWTFPWN, you're delusional.
i'll draw you a graph of the harbinger (highest damage BC) vs your typical close-range bs so you can realize the exact extent of the stupidity of such a claim.
Linkage
Look at that and tell me exactly a ship with 65% the damage, half the tank, half the HP, half the cap, and 75% the signature radius is going to kill a BS, unless the BS pilot rides the short bus?
The BC pilot with the best intel who brought the right EW? +++
"Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.17 04:25:00 -
[869]
Originally by: Kashre The BC pilot with the best intel who brought the right EW?
What if the BS pilot has good EW too? Sensor strenght on BCs is much lower than on BS. ----------------
Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it! |
2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.17 06:31:00 -
[870]
I flew my drake around, JAVELIN HAMS were overpowered, thats why I said before that the DRAKE was only a *tad* overpowered or not overpowered at all. If you take out jav HAMS, the drake isn't all that. Try a drake(old drake) with 7 launcher T2s, not near as good.
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