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Lev Ironwill World Burning 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:52:37 - [541] - Quote afkalt wrote: afkalt wrote: If you're doing a missile look-at in June too, you need to tell us now. Feedback is worthless without knowing this. I say this because it was mooted previously. Can we take this as a "No", at this point? That's what I'm taking it as, we asked way back on (I think) page 2 and there has been 0 response. Besides, why would missiles need to be looked at? The Drake is doing just fine, and is just as useful as intended. I use the Drake not because I think the ship could use some looking at, which it definitely could, but because its weapon systems are pretty ***.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 624	Posted - 2015.05.27 15:56:58 - [542] - Quote Compared to the other 2 tactical destroyers, I find the Jackdaw a bit lackluster.
Nagarythe Tinurandir House of Freedom 208	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:45:08 - [543] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Compared to the other 2 tactical destroyers, I find the Jackdaw a bit lackluster. That's the only real problem the Jackdaw has. The performance you get out of the other two is amazing and since the last patch they have also become even cheaper. But before nerfing Svipul and the 'Fessor into the ground let's give the Jackdaw a chance on TQ. CCP should however in the light of upcoming T3C rebalance reconsider the place of T3 within the powerspectrum of ships. Their original statement was that T3 is not significantly more powerful than T1 but very versatile. Right now, T3 ships feel very versatile (good) but on the level T2, faction or even beyond (feels awesopme but is not good for the game)
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 552	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:23:37 - [544] - Quote I don't think there's a single t1 ship destroyer-below that stands a chance against a t3d even in pairs. You might get lucky with catalysts but those can't hold anything down. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Lev Ironwill World Burning 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 02:50:14 - [545] - Quote My initial impression of the Jackdaw is that, like most missile ships, it will do very well. When there are other ships on-grid to handle minor details like points and webs so that the target(s) can't simply burn away and warp off leaving the Jackdaw pilot to wonder if half-kills count. Anything that the Jackdaw does manage to get into point and web range of, with a weak enough tank, will surely die and I expect that the Jackdaw will be splendid at hunting weak targets and running away from anything big or fast. The large sig radius will ensure that it will take plenty of damage outside of Defense mode, and the very wanting speed will make sure that if it can be forced into Defense mode it will stand a good chance of dying shortly after. This is not to say it's horrible, it's not, but I do believe it is on par with what can be expected of a Caldari missile ship: -big (sig radius) -slow -useful when other ships carry much of the load Again, I'm not saying it's horrible but I do not expect it to see as much use as the Confessor or Svipul, and surely not as much as the Hecate will. The Jackdaw, having been vaccinated against the sins of the Tengu and Drake, will likely be a one-off in small gangs. I will say, it's quick turn and acceleration will, with SeBo's and Hyperspatials, make it useful for initial tackle so long as the rest of the fleet is not too far behind.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 148	Posted - 2015.05.29 03:19:56 - [546] - Quote While its slow speed prevents it from being a roflpwnsoloboatkite4dayz ship, it also makes it incredibly easy to track by long range weapons or larger weapons, particularly if its buffer fit. I think if you want to make it as slow as it is, you need to decrease the sig radius of the ship significantly.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 552	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:34:40 - [547] - Quote The main sin with caldari ships seems to be they're balanced around the principle that any role they've got in a fleet can easily be filled by any equivalent. The same is not said in the reverse. What scenarios prompt the call for caldari ships over the more flexible gallente and minmatar ships? Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1067	Posted - 2015.05.29 10:31:39 - [548] - Quote Lev Ironwill wrote: I will say, it's quick turn and acceleration will, with SeBo's and Hyperspatials, make it useful for initial tackle so long as the rest of the fleet is not too far behind. T3Ds can all warp in one tick regardless of aligntime. Just initiate warp in propmode and then immediately switch to another and it will put you into warp.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1308	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:20:13 - [549] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: The main sin with caldari ships seems to be they're balanced around the principle that any role they've got in a fleet can easily be filled by any equivalent. The same is not said in the reverse. What scenarios prompt the call for caldari ships over the more flexible gallente and minmatar ships? Standup fleet scraps with heavy logistics. Same as Amarr. Because the resist bonuses right up the stack. The other races are more skirmish suited (with some outlier ships) to local reps. I'm aware I'm generalising and there are exceptions.
Dailar Toralen Toralen Industries 25	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:45:24 - [550] - Quote Mudder fuddin' Jackdaws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, I want one. NOW. NOW. GIVE ME ONE, NOW! I SAID NOW! We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.

elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 677	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:25:44 - [551] - Quote Oh boy, those changes.. While it is new to change ammo in two seconds it still doesn't help the Jackdaw, the ship without purpose or identity. The thing the Jachdaw has going is that it can run away fast and sometimes even fight a frigate or two. Anything more and it is going to be a 100 million isk loss. The Jackdaw cannot fight a Confessor and hope to win and in no configuration fight a svipul or more, it just can't. You cannot mitigate incoming damage by speed or movement with a 1mn or a 10mn afterburner and your signature radius makes you a battleship with a mwd on. Buffer tanks are a futile exercise and active tanks don't help either and believe me, I tried them all. Rockets used to be one option before the change but brawling isn't really popular these days and you would have to pin your target first, so light missiles it is. Bring friends you say? Yes sure but then, every other boat scales too in numbers, don't they? So here it is again, the one million isk question, what are we supposed to fight with it? Ah, I see - NPCs. Thank you for yet another Caldari pve boat. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Izmaragd Dawnstar EVE University Ivy League 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:41:29 - [552] - Quote elitatwo wrote: So here it is again, the one million isk question, what are we supposed to fight with it? Ah, I see - NPCs. Thank you for yet another Caldari pve boat. The irony is, it is only moderately good for PVE as well. PYFA now has the Jackdaw in the database, so I've been trying to put together a decent PVE fit, and the result is "meh" at best. Basically, you can get only slightly lesser dps and tanking out of a hawk (yes, hawk is limited to kinetic, but that covers "only" half the map). The only advantage compared to other two T3s is projection, but the decrease in dps you get to account for it is waay to high. If (big IF) this is to be a PVE boat, it needs another bonus instead of the reload rate: shield boost amount or straight +missile damage (possibly limited to kinetic and/or thermal) would be ideal.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 552	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:03:59 - [553] - Quote afkalt wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: The main sin with caldari ships seems to be they're balanced around the principle that any role they've got in a fleet can easily be filled by any equivalent. The same is not said in the reverse. What scenarios prompt the call for caldari ships over the more flexible gallente and minmatar ships? Standup fleet scraps with heavy logistics. Same as Amarr. Because the resist bonuses right up the stack. The other races are more skirmish suited (with some outlier ships) to local reps. I'm aware I'm generalising and there are exceptions. I for one would never fly a fleet tengu. That means ishtars. Not even fleet logi so far as I've seen uses minmatar reps not caldari. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 552	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:11:22 - [554] - Quote The only truly unique thing a jackdaw could have is a double range bonus I think. Allowing to shoot out to 100 with lights in sharpshooter and about 16-18 with rockets. It could be a mini cerberus. What would it mean in the long run? Well maybe something that can fight linked kiters at last. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Pashko Morgan Nomads of Republic Smile 'n' Wave 3	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:51:12 - [555] - Quote Ok I loved this thread. > Experts with opinion who got 2-3 kb kills with t3d > Guys who kicked in within fleets of 10+ t3d with support > B O I S who want it RIGHT NAOW > Unlucky poor folks who decided to kill a 300-500 mil snaked boat with their atron but didnt succeed Thanks for capsuleers fitted with brains who mentioned really important downsides of the concept: - 6 meds means Thermodynamics 5 or gtfo. That would be the month of burned medium subsystem. - Low speed with 10mn ab or huge sig with mwd. No kite - no life. Speed tanking was 90% of tanking. Confi and svipuls were op in beam/arty kite fits. All close setups were just dead briks untill something heavy (or any EAF) or not so dumb landed on. - The amount of fights which will be flipped due to reload speed bonus is a joke. Just remember how many times reload time was more critical than distance/cap control. Anyway the patchnotes are here and soon we'll be facing talwar 2.0 in action.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1067	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:35:30 - [556] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Oh boy, those changes.. While it is new to change ammo in two seconds it still doesn't help the Jackdaw, the ship without purpose or identity. The thing the Jachdaw has going is that it can run away fast and sometimes even fight a frigate or two. Anything more and it is going to be a 100 million isk loss. The Jackdaw cannot fight a Confessor and hope to win and in no configuration fight a svipul or more, it just can't. In a 1v1 brawl, jackdaw >> svipul/confessor. You're constantly applying 300+ dps to their weakest resists, they're happy if they can apply any damage. For kiting, a jackdaw got 265dps with furies at 30/50km. Not calling that weak when you pop another frig in four volleys latest. Pashko Morgan wrote: Anyway the patchnotes are here and soon we'll be facing talwar 2.0 in action. No, the jackdaw is a terrible talwar replacement. They are fine in that they are like a bad talwar with combat probes, but that's it.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 552	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:08:40 - [557] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: elitatwo wrote: Oh boy, those changes.. While it is new to change ammo in two seconds it still doesn't help the Jackdaw, the ship without purpose or identity. The thing the Jachdaw has going is that it can run away fast and sometimes even fight a frigate or two. Anything more and it is going to be a 100 million isk loss. The Jackdaw cannot fight a Confessor and hope to win and in no configuration fight a svipul or more, it just can't. In a 1v1 brawl, jackdaw >> svipul/confessor. You're constantly applying 300+ dps to their weakest resists, they're happy if they can apply any damage. For kiting, a jackdaw got 265dps with furies at 30/50km. Not calling that weak when you pop another frig in four volleys latest. . 30-50km? Kiting? That's 100mil point at minimum, 100mil point + 1 billion booster at maximum? Also killing any frigate in 4 shots? Hmm.. it's possible to kill t1's that easily sure but the jackdaw gets ROF not volley while iirc the corax and flycatcher both get raw damage. I can push a flycatchers volley up to 2198 with fury scourge, what does a jackdaw get? 1700 or so? I don't remember. Like this is the problem - most of these theoretical fits exist only for those with the pre-req billions to shell out for this stuff. Are these the only clientele who should be flying these ships? Do pensioners drive lambourghinis? I said it earlier in the thread that if the maximum balance of the ship is based around an infinite budget then sure we can work with that but people always assume balance is around some lower fitting and if you start thinking like that then we get perceived imbalances. Only make balance commentary around the maximum pimp of a ship. The only really valid balance criticism is that based off a ship which cannot be blinged out any further - links included. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
bunzing heet Demon-War-Lords Circle-Of-Two 5	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:57:32 - [558] - Quote It isn't that bad of a boat it just misses its niche You get decent dps with both lights as rockets Tank isn't that great but still will do fine against other dessies and frigs I've been fighting svipuls and confessors on sisi and it has a fair chance of winning The reload is great it gives you the abbility to choose damage types even during a fight and still come out on top Still I was hoping it would get a niche like passive tank ability in def or ab speed buff in propulsion But then again I like flying underestimated ships that's why I like caldari so much So we will see what will happens once it hits tq I do like the way it looks great job on that Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1067	Posted - 2015.05.30 15:53:10 - [559] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: 30-50km? Kiting? That's 100mil point at minimum, 100mil point + 1 billion booster at maximum? Also killing any frigate in 4 shots? Hmm.. it's possible to kill t1's that easily sure but the jackdaw gets ROF not volley while iirc the corax and flycatcher both get raw damage. I can push a flycatchers volley up to 2198 with fury scourge, what does a jackdaw get? 1700 or so? I don't remember. Like this is the problem - most of these theoretical fits exist only for those with the pre-req billions to shell out for this stuff. Are these the only clientele who should be flying these ships? Do pensioners drive lambourghinis? I said it earlier in the thread that if the maximum balance of the ship is based around an infinite budget then sure we can work with that but people always assume balance is around some lower fitting and if you start thinking like that then we get perceived imbalances. Only make balance commentary around the maximum pimp of a ship. The only really valid balance criticism is that based off a ship which cannot be blinged out any further - links included. I've been running with empty head. The 10mn fit is about 130mil on TQ and I used my TQ booster (4link eccm scangu, 350mil boosterfit and 40mil skirmish mindlink), I don't consider that expensive. The defense mode being so not agile is almost beneficial, accelerate in prop and switch to cruise mode. The volley-statement is just, things I saw happen. Regarding the LML-fit, 22-26km is regular kite range. You got thermo V and a masive heat bonus on the hull, so you can heat your point for about 2 minutes and still not burn that thing. With links, ranges increase to 31/37km pointage, or just barely fury range and CN range using propmode.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1093	Posted - 2015.05.30 16:00:24 - [560] - Quote swap back to faction ammo if you want to actually hit

Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1069	Posted - 2015.05.30 16:06:11 - [561] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: swap back to faction ammo if you want to actually hit Use fury against destroyers and bigger, CN against frigates. Use Rage against anything in range cause you apparently don'T do less damage against anything but a succubus/chremora.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 552	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:03:37 - [562] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: Caleb Seremshur wrote: 30-50km? Kiting? That's 100mil point at minimum, 100mil point + 1 billion booster at maximum? Also killing any frigate in 4 shots? Hmm.. it's possible to kill t1's that easily sure but the jackdaw gets ROF not volley while iirc the corax and flycatcher both get raw damage. I can push a flycatchers volley up to 2198 with fury scourge, what does a jackdaw get? 1700 or so? I don't remember. Like this is the problem - most of these theoretical fits exist only for those with the pre-req billions to shell out for this stuff. Are these the only clientele who should be flying these ships? Do pensioners drive lambourghinis? I said it earlier in the thread that if the maximum balance of the ship is based around an infinite budget then sure we can work with that but people always assume balance is around some lower fitting and if you start thinking like that then we get perceived imbalances. Only make balance commentary around the maximum pimp of a ship. The only really valid balance criticism is that based off a ship which cannot be blinged out any further - links included. I've been running with empty head. The 10mn fit is about 130mil on TQ and I used my TQ booster (4link eccm scangu, 350mil boosterfit and 40mil skirmish mindlink), I don't consider that expensive. The defense mode being so not agile is almost beneficial, accelerate in prop and switch to cruise mode. The volley-statement is just, things I saw happen. Regarding the LML-fit, 22-26km is regular kite range. You got thermo V and a masive heat bonus on the hull, so you can heat your point for about 2 minutes and still not burn that thing. With links, ranges increase to 31/37km pointage, or just barely fury range and CN range using propmode. Let's go over this again. You said 30-50km kite range. That's faction point +links material. Empty head woopee you got no excuse, how many SP is a booster alt? I don't even ******* know isn't like 40mil SP just in boosting skills alone? Plus ship skills? 50mil SP? at 3mil SP a month we're talking 15 months solid right there plus change. Now PLEX is 895mil/unit so we're talking multiple billions just for the toon to mount the hardware for the ship to provide the links. So there's the raw ISK evaluation sorted. I really don't see your point. At all. If you have to bring 10 billion in SP just to make 130mil of destroyer work for you there might be a problem. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 678	Posted - 2015.05.30 20:52:37 - [563] - Quote Sorry for barging in again but I did try standard fits with meta4 / tech2 stuff on and no links to get a feeling for the boat first, so all my findings are without any links or 3 billion isk worth of brain surgery. The opponents were linked, snaked and whatnot and some weren't but I couldn't break one svipul in any fit. One Confessor almost got me but I could escape and the others had a really easy time killing the Jack. Even though I like the rocket fits, there was no way I could keep any ship in web-range to poke them long enough with rockets. And while web range isn't a problem to achieve, getting in scram range is. Of course I had a much easier time with links and some bling but I am still conflicted if it is worth to put in on one. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1070	Posted - 2015.05.31 02:32:33 - [564] - Quote 30/50km initially stated the ranges with fury missiles. 30km in prop, 50km in sharpshooter. It said: You can use furies out to the edge of point range, or 265dps no matter where and how you move, as long as you got a point - dps. I don't know how you jump from that to a statement that 50km points are normal. I'm a bit flattered though.
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 553	Posted - 2015.05.31 05:51:19 - [565] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: 30/50km initially stated the ranges with fury missiles. 30km in prop, 50km in sharpshooter. It said: You can use furies out to the edge of point range, or 265dps no matter where and how you move, as long as you got a point - dps. I don't know how you jump from that to a statement that 50km points are normal. I'm a bit flattered though. And that's not what I said either. It's eminently possible to kite at 30km no? Getting to 50 requires specialist equipment. And that's what I said. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
Torei Dutalis IceBox Inc. Lasers Are Magic 29	Posted - 2015.06.01 06:55:16 - [566] - Quote So just got around to running the numbers on this thing in PYFA. I take back half the bad things I said about this ship. [Jackdaw, m1] Overdrive Injector System II Ballistic Control System II 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50 Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile [Empty High slot] Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Auxiliary Thrusters II Prop Mode 200 dps @ 42.2 2508 m/s Your fitting capabilities may surpass mine, but I feel this shows the ship has more than mediocre performance outside of brawling.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 680	Posted - 2015.06.01 15:13:11 - [567] - Quote Torei Dutalis wrote: So just got around to running the numbers on this thing in PYFA. I take back half the bad things I said about this ship. [Jackdaw, m1] Overdrive Injector System II Ballistic Control System II 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50 Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile [Empty High slot] Small Bay Loading Accelerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Auxiliary Thrusters II Prop Mode 200 dps @ 42.2 2508 m/s Your fitting capabilities may surpass mine, but I feel this shows the ship has more than mediocre performance outside of brawling. This is one of the reasons I don't use fitting tools anymore. On paper or on your screen this may look good but the second you undock this you will be made aware of how this flies and what downsides the fitting tool doesn't show. Try this on SiSi and ask some corpmates to shoot you and tell us how it went. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1074	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:10:04 - [568] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Torei Dutalis wrote: [jackdaw fit] This is one of the reasons I don't use fitting tools anymore. On paper or on your screen this may look good but the second you undock this you will be made aware of how this flies and what downsides the fitting tool doesn't show. Try this on SiSi and ask some corpmates to shoot you and tell us how it went. With a fitting tool, you'd probably see a more than just linear increase using pith boosters over CL-5 though, regarding additional rep vs. extra cost with regards to the whole ship. Without a fitting tool, I'd probably not had seen that you can squeeze 2 BCS on a LML-fit - and together with tac V, this makes all the difference.
Torei Dutalis IceBox Inc. Lasers Are Magic 30	Posted - 2015.06.01 17:30:30 - [569] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Things By no means the only fit I have come up with. If you had read the entirety of this thread you would know I had previously been testing more brawly fits (to be fair my posts were a ways back though). Fitting tools are eminently useful as they save copious amounts of time doing math for making those crazy or really tight fits. Tested this latest fit on sisi a little today. Performed as expected. Light tank, light dps, but a decent kiter. It loves snakes, but that goes without saying I suppose. Probably stick with another t3d for kiting, but the ship can manage in that arena to some degree.
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Black Legion. 299	Posted - 2015.06.01 18:56:20 - [570] - Quote I'm interested in giving this a shot just for something different, but even as a kiter I doubt I'll end up giving up the tried, tested, and true venerable confessor.



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