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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:29:00 -
[1]
Okay, seriously let's look at the Ferox vs Drake now.
Drake 8[6 launcher]/6/4
+1 high slot +1 launcher, +1 midslot, and +50 CPU over the Ferox.
The Ferox 7[5 launcher]/5/4 +150 grid over the Drake.
Okay so it seems the Ferox hasn't got much over the Drake, on paper but let's look further.
Ferox Setup Hi: 5x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 2x Large Shield Extender II Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
Has about 17.4k shield.. and 2 medium nos, which we all know in PvP is nice to have, somewhat passively tanked, maybe a crap setup but I'm just using it as an example how flexible the Ferox is, could drop shield extenders for active tank, obviously.
Drake Setup Hi: 6x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 1x Large Shield Extender II -- out of grid no room for anything more. Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
So basically, the Drake will out DPS the Ferox a bit but not by much if not sticking to purely kinetic missiles and the Ferox can slap on a few extenders + nosferatu and launchers without any issues.
So yeah for a solid PvP fitting the Ferox is actually better than the Drake now when using missiles. I'm pretty sure if you swap extenders for active tank the Ferox wins out too and it can more easily fit nos to go with it's launchers which of course are win button modules.
So okay great the "new and improved" Drake winds up being less flexible than the Ferox when using launchers for little less DPS.
Trust me you don't want to use kinetic missiles in PvP anyways, Explosive or EM best choices, hands down. Only ship off the top of my head with a kinetic hole is the Vagabond and good luck having your missiles do any damage to one of those suckers.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:49:00 -
[2]
DPS 2x DMG Mod / Max Skills
Ferox with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles = 217 DPS Drake with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles [non kinetic] = 260 DPS Drake with Terror Heavy Assault Missiles [kinetic] = 326 DPS
So basically the Ferox is pretty much right up there with the Drake when not using kinetics, not bad for a railboat.. the Drake seems okay with kinetics but yeah, you don't use kinetic in PvP, I guess it's okay for mission running, which is what you'll be doing with a Drake not PvPing.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/11/2006 21:06:56 Maybe they are trying to shut up the "OMG FEROX IS USELESS!!!111LOL" people.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 16/11/2006 21:11:52
Originally by: Captain Raynor DPS 2x DMG Mod / Max Skills
Ferox with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles = 217 DPS Drake with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles [non kinetic] = 260 DPS Drake with Terror Heavy Assault Missiles [kinetic] = 326 DPS
So basically the Ferox is pretty much right up there with the Drake when not using kinetics, not bad for a railboat.. the Drake seems okay with kinetics but yeah, you don't use kinetic in PvP, I guess it's okay for mission running, which is what you'll be doing with a Drake not PvPing.
You say you can't use kinetic in PvP. The Amarr say you can't use EM in PvP.
What dmg do you think people should be doing? I get along fine using rails and blasters, which are mostly kinetic. And I often use kinetic drones too.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.16 21:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Captain Raynor on 16/11/2006 21:16:32
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 16/11/2006 21:11:52
Originally by: Captain Raynor DPS 2x DMG Mod / Max Skills
Ferox with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles = 217 DPS Drake with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles [non kinetic] = 260 DPS Drake with Terror Heavy Assault Missiles [kinetic] = 326 DPS
So basically the Ferox is pretty much right up there with the Drake when not using kinetics, not bad for a railboat.. the Drake seems okay with kinetics but yeah, you don't use kinetic in PvP, I guess it's okay for mission running, which is what you'll be doing with a Drake not PvPing.
You say you can't use kinetic in PvP. The Amarr say you can't use EM in PvP.
What dmg do you think people should be doing? I get along fine using rails and blasters, which are mostly kinetic. And I often use kinetic drones too.
It's better to do two damage types than it is to do straight out 1 damage type. Give missiles 2 damage types then and make one a "caldari" racial one if that's the case, however I kind of though that missiles base DPS was lower than others weapons because of the versatility, obviously CCP has lost sight of that.
Kinetic is a horrible choice for PvP in my opinion, it's probably one of the highest resisted damage types.. EM and Explosive are much better.
Look at tech II ships, all boosted kinetic resist. Least blasters and rails get ammo with high thermal damage too to go with the kinetic it makes for a better situation for a flat out 1 damage type which is highly resisted to begin with..
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Ewa Quillam
Caldari mega mining corporation Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.11.17 01:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Captain Raynor Edited by: Captain Raynor on 16/11/2006 21:16:32
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 16/11/2006 21:11:52
Originally by: Captain Raynor DPS 2x DMG Mod / Max Skills
Ferox with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles = 217 DPS Drake with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles [non kinetic] = 260 DPS Drake with Terror Heavy Assault Missiles [kinetic] = 326 DPS
So basically the Ferox is pretty much right up there with the Drake when not using kinetics, not bad for a railboat.. the Drake seems okay with kinetics but yeah, you don't use kinetic in PvP, I guess it's okay for mission running, which is what you'll be doing with a Drake not PvPing.
You say you can't use kinetic in PvP. The Amarr say you can't use EM in PvP.
What dmg do you think people should be doing? I get along fine using rails and blasters, which are mostly kinetic. And I often use kinetic drones too.
It's better to do two damage types than it is to do straight out 1 damage type. Give missiles 2 damage types then and make one a "caldari" racial one if that's the case, however I kind of though that missiles base DPS was lower than others weapons because of the versatility, obviously CCP has lost sight of that.
Kinetic is a horrible choice for PvP in my opinion, it's probably one of the highest resisted damage types.. EM and Explosive are much better.
Look at tech II ships, all boosted kinetic resist. Least blasters and rails get ammo with high thermal damage too to go with the kinetic it makes for a better situation for a flat out 1 damage type which is highly resisted to begin with..
U have no clue, Captain Raynor, 3 months and 21 days old character in state war academy since day 1... resists are even over the board for t1 ships as (shield + armor)/2 ~ 30% all races together.
Amarr guns are stuck with Em/Therm, gallente guns are stuck with Kinetic/Them, minnies have a bit of freedom, missiles users aren't stuck with anything so wouldn't it be unfair for the others that the missiles gain an uber bonus all over the resist board and that coming from a 40-50 mil t1 BC???
Try to learn the game before demanding fairness when it's not the case...
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 05:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ewa Quillam
Originally by: Captain Raynor Edited by: Captain Raynor on 16/11/2006 21:16:32
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 16/11/2006 21:11:52
Originally by: Captain Raynor DPS 2x DMG Mod / Max Skills
Ferox with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles = 217 DPS Drake with Javelin Heavy Assault Missiles [non kinetic] = 260 DPS Drake with Terror Heavy Assault Missiles [kinetic] = 326 DPS
So basically the Ferox is pretty much right up there with the Drake when not using kinetics, not bad for a railboat.. the Drake seems okay with kinetics but yeah, you don't use kinetic in PvP, I guess it's okay for mission running, which is what you'll be doing with a Drake not PvPing.
You say you can't use kinetic in PvP. The Amarr say you can't use EM in PvP.
What dmg do you think people should be doing? I get along fine using rails and blasters, which are mostly kinetic. And I often use kinetic drones too.
It's better to do two damage types than it is to do straight out 1 damage type. Give missiles 2 damage types then and make one a "caldari" racial one if that's the case, however I kind of though that missiles base DPS was lower than others weapons because of the versatility, obviously CCP has lost sight of that.
Kinetic is a horrible choice for PvP in my opinion, it's probably one of the highest resisted damage types.. EM and Explosive are much better.
Look at tech II ships, all boosted kinetic resist. Least blasters and rails get ammo with high thermal damage too to go with the kinetic it makes for a better situation for a flat out 1 damage type which is highly resisted to begin with..
U have no clue, Captain Raynor, 3 months and 21 days old character in state war academy since day 1... resists are even over the board for t1 ships as (shield + armor)/2 ~ 30% all races together.
Amarr guns are stuck with Em/Therm, gallente guns are stuck with Kinetic/Them, minnies have a bit of freedom, missiles users aren't stuck with anything so wouldn't it be unfair for the others that the missiles gain an uber bonus all over the resist board and that coming from a 40-50 mil t1 BC???
Try to learn the game before demanding fairness when it's not the case...
This isn't my main character genius. I've been playing EVE since June '03 ok, trust me they ruined the Drake, it's junk.
Bonus to two dmg types is better than a bonus to one, plus lasers and blasters do way more DPS, kinetic only dmg bonus is a joke, sorry dude.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Ed Gein
Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:12:00 -
[8]
Yeah kinetic damage is sort of the lose for pvp :S It is good against minmatar tech 2 ships that are just throwing on an extender for a tank, aka the vaga. But it sort of gets raped by heavy launchers anyway.
-------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:35:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 08:38:29 Drake with kinetic does 50% more DPS than the missile Ferox. I don't know how you define "a bit", but I'd have to guess its quite different from my and most peoples definition.
Regarding kinetic only damage bonus if you can still change damage types, you just lose some DPS in the process, just like projectiles and drones.
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.17 08:54:00 -
[10]
Quote: Look at tech II ships, all boosted kinetic resist. Least blasters and rails get ammo with high thermal damage too to go with the kinetic it makes for a better situation for a flat out 1 damage type which is highly resisted to begin with..
You should know better since you have played since june 03 Captain Raynor. Minmatar are weak to kinetic on t2 line. Same could be said on thermal except amarr are weak to it. Explosive and em are different, as always either shields or armour are relatively weak to it with the exception of amarr and minmatar which effectively counter each other out.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:03:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Captain Raynor on 17/11/2006 09:05:57
Originally by: meppa
Quote: Look at tech II ships, all boosted kinetic resist. Least blasters and rails get ammo with high thermal damage too to go with the kinetic it makes for a better situation for a flat out 1 damage type which is highly resisted to begin with..
You should know better since you have played since june 03 Captain Raynor. Minmatar are weak to kinetic on t2 line. Same could be said on thermal except amarr are weak to it. Explosive and em are different, as always either shields or armour are relatively weak to it with the exception of amarr and minmatar which effectively counter each other out.
Yeah so what about Minmatar?
Look at T2 Minmatar ships, Vagabond relies on speed, Munin is hardly used, Sleipnir, good ship, 2 invuls and it's got insane resists and a great tank especially with that shield boost bonus.
So yeah, who cares that only 1 race gets a hole in kinetic, the race that probably tanks the least anyways? The other 3 don't.
CCP has killed the versatility of missiles, it's ridiculous. IF missiles did 2 dmg types instead of just 1, okay i'd let the silly 1 missile type dmg bonus fly but we don't 1 damage type, lame, easily tanked, stupid stupid bonus.
Question: Why does the Raven get a ROF bonus but no other Caldari ship outside of T2 can EVER get the same? And if you say Raven should be kinetic missile damage, die in fire. Seriously Caldari has nerfed the Drake from decent pvp ship to gurista npc mission runner, w00t w00t!
Let's recap shall we: -Bonus to 1 damage type. (WORSE THAN BONUS TO TWO DAMAGE TYPES FOLKS) -Low DPS (Drake is now the bottom of the barrel in DPS in tier2 bcruisers) -Can't fit MWD/SCRAM/WEB without gimping shield tank (you get to not be able to tank or do DPS, cool!) -Short Range with HAM (yes yes jav isnt i know but still)
Wow, awesome ship, sign me up for this crapfest of a ship.
6 Launcher and Rate of Fire, please come to your senses CCP.
Seriously if you are trying to make the Ferox actually look good, nice job, considering it's one of the worst ships in the game basically it's quite an accomplishment you could make the Drake so bad the Ferox starts to look tempting, keep up the good work!
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:10:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 09:11:46
Originally by: Captain Raynor -Can't fit MWD/SCRAM/WEB without gimping shield tank (you get to not be able to tank or do DPS, cool!)
How many armor tanking ships are running around with rep/2xEANM/DC tanks in PVP? A hell of alot from what I've seen.... so why can't you shield tank with booster/2xInvul/DC (which would leave enough room for the standard mwd/scram/web)?
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Captain Raynor Look at T2 Minmatar ships, Vagabond relies on speed, Munin is hardly used, Sleipnir, good ship, 2 invuls and it's got insane resists and a great tank especially with that shield boost bonus.
So yeah, who cares that only 1 race gets a hole in kinetic, the race that probably tanks the least anyways? The other 3 don't.
Do you honestly intend to rely on the argument that everyone in PvP flies a HAC, command ship or an assault frig? Good luck with that one. Last time I checked, the battleship was the most-used PvP ship.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Captain Raynor Look at T2 Minmatar ships, Vagabond relies on speed, Munin is hardly used, Sleipnir, good ship, 2 invuls and it's got insane resists and a great tank especially with that shield boost bonus.
So yeah, who cares that only 1 race gets a hole in kinetic, the race that probably tanks the least anyways? The other 3 don't.
Do you honestly intend to rely on the argument that everyone in PvP flies a HAC, command ship or an assault frig? Good luck with that one. Last time I checked, the battleship was the most-used PvP ship.
Uh, maybe in fleets battleship is the most used PvP ship, in small gang not always, let's not forget recons, which are very popular, i'm not talking strictly about HAC/Command, there are other t2 ships, yanno.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Captain Raynor Wow, awesome ship, sign me up for this crapfest of a ship.
And i am stuck with apoc and abaddon, join the club . On more serious note new bc are not in much better balance. While tier 1 is concentrated more on tanking, tier 2 is concentrated on damage. Otherwise ships are quite similar. If drake needs a change it needs it shield resitance bonus swapped for something that helps missiles a bit, like explosion velocity or radius bonus to make its tank even bit worse.
As a side note i am just waiting for hardbinger to lose its 7th turret slot, but then again it doesn't have any launcher slots to give support so i don't know.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Captain Raynor Look at T2 Minmatar ships, Vagabond relies on speed, Munin is hardly used, Sleipnir, good ship, 2 invuls and it's got insane resists and a great tank especially with that shield boost bonus.
So yeah, who cares that only 1 race gets a hole in kinetic, the race that probably tanks the least anyways? The other 3 don't.
Do you honestly intend to rely on the argument that everyone in PvP flies a HAC, command ship or an assault frig? Good luck with that one. Last time I checked, the battleship was the most-used PvP ship.
At least if you are gallente and have good ships in that department.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 09:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Captain Raynor Look at T2 Minmatar ships, Vagabond relies on speed, Munin is hardly used, Sleipnir, good ship, 2 invuls and it's got insane resists and a great tank especially with that shield boost bonus.
So yeah, who cares that only 1 race gets a hole in kinetic, the race that probably tanks the least anyways? The other 3 don't.
Do you honestly intend to rely on the argument that everyone in PvP flies a HAC, command ship or an assault frig? Good luck with that one. Last time I checked, the battleship was the most-used PvP ship.
Uh, maybe in fleets battleship is the most used PvP ship, in small gang not always, let's not forget recons, which are very popular, i'm not talking strictly about HAC/Command, there are other t2 ships, yanno.
The other t2 ships don't get the uber resists. In fact, you are far more likely come across a ship that doesn't get them than you are to come across one that does.
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ramptrick
Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 03:59:00 -
[18]
boring!!
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 12:36:00 -
[19]
I always get a bit of a giggle out of the damage-type-whine crew. Amarr claim that EM is the most tanked damage, making it useless. Caldari are claiming Kinetic is the most tanked damage, making it useless. Explosive is almost useless against shield tanks (all Caldari ships and most Minmatar, plus some Gallente), clearly making it useless. Clearly Thermal, by default, is the only damage people don't have 100% resists to, then?!
Amarr are probably right- EM is probably the most tanked damage. Kintetic, on the other hand, is ****ed useful.
To look at other weapons systems:
Drones = the lowest DPS in the game, if used exlusively (difficult to define, seeing as they don't use slots). Despite having the option to use all 4 damage types, thermal damage is by far the best drone- using anything other than thermal loses you DPS. They can also be lost mid battle, which is equal to a massive DPS decrease mid battle.
Hybrids = can only do Kinetic and Thermal damage- period. Mostly Kinetic, in fact. Use some Cap.
Lasers = Only do Thermal and EM damage- period. Mostly EM (!) damage. Also uses massive Cap.
Projectiles = Has an ammo type for each different damage type, BUT, each ammo is also differntly effective. Unless you use the *correct* damage type, you lose out on DPS.
Missiles = Can choose any damage type without penalty. Some ships receive a bonus to Kinetic damage type- using a differnt damage type loses out on DPS.
Sounds fair to me. -----------------------------------------------
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nexvis
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Posted - 2006.11.18 12:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Captain Raynor Okay, seriously let's look at the Ferox vs Drake now.
Drake 8[6 launcher]/6/4
+1 high slot +1 launcher, +1 midslot, and +50 CPU over the Ferox.
The Ferox 7[5 launcher]/5/4 +150 grid over the Drake.
Okay so it seems the Ferox hasn't got much over the Drake, on paper but let's look further.
Ferox Setup Hi: 5x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 2x Large Shield Extender II Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
Has about 17.4k shield.. and 2 medium nos, which we all know in PvP is nice to have, somewhat passively tanked, maybe a crap setup but I'm just using it as an example how flexible the Ferox is, could drop shield extenders for active tank, obviously.
Drake Setup Hi: 6x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 1x Large Shield Extender II -- out of grid no room for anything more. Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
So basically, the Drake will out DPS the Ferox a bit but not by much if not sticking to purely kinetic missiles and the Ferox can slap on a few extenders + nosferatu and launchers without any issues.
So yeah for a solid PvP fitting the Ferox is actually better than the Drake now when using missiles. I'm pretty sure if you swap extenders for active tank the Ferox wins out too and it can more easily fit nos to go with it's launchers which of course are win button modules.
So okay great the "new and improved" Drake winds up being less flexible than the Ferox when using launchers for little less DPS.
Trust me you don't want to use kinetic missiles in PvP anyways, Explosive or EM best choices, hands down. Only ship off the top of my head with a kinetic hole is the Vagabond and good luck having your missiles do any damage to one of those suckers.
So quit being stubborn and remove a nos? you don't need a nos for that setup at all, let alone two of them. Stick a small nutralize in the last high if you're out to damage your target's cap.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 13:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Patch86 I always get a bit of a giggle out of the damage-type-whine crew. Amarr claim that EM is the most tanked damage, making it useless. Caldari are claiming Kinetic is the most tanked damage, making it useless. Explosive is almost useless against shield tanks (all Caldari ships and most Minmatar, plus some Gallente), clearly making it useless. Clearly Thermal, by default, is the only damage people don't have 100% resists to, then?!
Amarr are probably right- EM is probably the most tanked damage. Kintetic, on the other hand, is ****ed useful.
To look at other weapons systems:
Drones = the lowest DPS in the game, if used exlusively (difficult to define, seeing as they don't use slots). Despite having the option to use all 4 damage types, thermal damage is by far the best drone- using anything other than thermal loses you DPS. They can also be lost mid battle, which is equal to a massive DPS decrease mid battle.
Hybrids = can only do Kinetic and Thermal damage- period. Mostly Kinetic, in fact. Use some Cap.
Lasers = Only do Thermal and EM damage- period. Mostly EM (!) damage. Also uses massive Cap.
Projectiles = Has an ammo type for each different damage type, BUT, each ammo is also differntly effective. Unless you use the *correct* damage type, you lose out on DPS.
Missiles = Can choose any damage type without penalty. Some ships receive a bonus to Kinetic damage type- using a differnt damage type loses out on DPS.
Sounds fair to me.
Hey so like Gallente drone boats would be OK if they just made their drone bonuses apply to thermal drones, right? I mean, that is their racial drone so that's what the damage bonus should apply too right?
OH WAIT THEY WHINED IT UP SO HARD IT GOT CHANGED WITHIN 24 HOURS.
Look, the DPS on missiles is already kinda crap ok, yeah missiles can certainly do things that guns cant, and ofc on the other hand missiles have drawbacks as well.
Overall, the best thing about missiles is their versatility and taking away the ROF bonus on the Drake more or less kills that. Kinetic only is pretty much crap, the DPS on the Drake is now crap and guess what? It's a crap ship now.
A bonus to lasers, proj, or hybrids is a bonus to two damage types or more (proj obviously), the kinetic missile damage bonus is a bonus to one damage type, switch missiles? You are flying a bonusless ship, its lame, sorry dude, it just is.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 13:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: nexvis
Originally by: Captain Raynor Okay, seriously let's look at the Ferox vs Drake now.
Drake 8[6 launcher]/6/4
+1 high slot +1 launcher, +1 midslot, and +50 CPU over the Ferox.
The Ferox 7[5 launcher]/5/4 +150 grid over the Drake.
Okay so it seems the Ferox hasn't got much over the Drake, on paper but let's look further.
Ferox Setup Hi: 5x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 2x Large Shield Extender II Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
Has about 17.4k shield.. and 2 medium nos, which we all know in PvP is nice to have, somewhat passively tanked, maybe a crap setup but I'm just using it as an example how flexible the Ferox is, could drop shield extenders for active tank, obviously.
Drake Setup Hi: 6x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 1x Large Shield Extender II -- out of grid no room for anything more. Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
So basically, the Drake will out DPS the Ferox a bit but not by much if not sticking to purely kinetic missiles and the Ferox can slap on a few extenders + nosferatu and launchers without any issues.
So yeah for a solid PvP fitting the Ferox is actually better than the Drake now when using missiles. I'm pretty sure if you swap extenders for active tank the Ferox wins out too and it can more easily fit nos to go with it's launchers which of course are win button modules.
So okay great the "new and improved" Drake winds up being less flexible than the Ferox when using launchers for little less DPS.
Trust me you don't want to use kinetic missiles in PvP anyways, Explosive or EM best choices, hands down. Only ship off the top of my head with a kinetic hole is the Vagabond and good luck having your missiles do any damage to one of those suckers.
So quit being stubborn and remove a nos? you don't need a nos for that setup at all, let alone two of them. Stick a small nutralize in the last high if you're out to damage your target's cap.
I am just trying to show that the Ferox (which btw is NOT a missile ship technically) can not only be competitive with the Drake in DPS now (when not using kinetic, which in PvP doesn't get used much if at all) but also has an easier time fitting HAMS + Tank + Nos, thus whilst having slightly lower DPS, can actually have an overall more solid setup.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
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Posted - 2006.11.18 13:57:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Hydrian Alante on 18/11/2006 14:00:38 Hello Mr Stupid
The Ferox has that much Powergrid to fit RAILGUNS and not oversized shield Modules that are ment to be on a Battleship.
And please stop the kinetic is a bad damage bull****.
Compared to EM kinetic is a lot better. Kinetic is the 2nd best dmg to bring down an armor tank today. 80% of all PvP fitted ships are armor tanked with EANMs + DC so kinetic is very usefull instead of crap EM.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 15:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hydrian Alante Edited by: Hydrian Alante on 18/11/2006 14:00:38 Hello Mr Stupid
The Ferox has that much Powergrid to fit RAILGUNS and not oversized shield Modules that are ment to be on a Battleship.
And please stop the kinetic is a bad damage bull****.
Compared to EM kinetic is a lot better. Kinetic is the 2nd best dmg to bring down an armor tank today. 80% of all PvP fitted ships are armor tanked with EANMs + DC so kinetic is very usefull instead of crap EM.
I am sorry but Jim...ermmm...I mean the captain is absolutely correct on this. Kinetic damage means that anytime the drake isn't using Scourge heavies or the HAM kinetics you might as well fly a caracal. Atleast then you'd get a velocity bonus too. Or a ferox... atleast its more flexible. At the moment it has 2 rubbish bonuses that make it just small notch above the ferox... which is a rail boat.
Kinetic isn't exactly rubbish for pvp... but its 1 damage type. Its highly resisted on shields for basically every ship in the game. You use EM missiles when you are on a secondary called target in PVP so you can *****shields off so that when the turret ships get done with the primary they can work directly on armor. You use explosive if you are shooting a primary called target because by the time your missiles reach it, if its still there, the shields will be raped by the turret users.
How can something so simple be lost on people wanting to play devils advocate in a forum they shouldn't even be in.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Sahne MuhMuh
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
How can something so simple be lost on people wanting to play devils advocate in a forum they shouldn't even be in.
Now we should all pray to god that he made ppl like you that know absolutly everything but still habe no clue what they are really talking about.
So you are whining about 40% kinetic shield resistence that every ship got? And that you are screwed against the majority of all pvpers wich are mostly armor tanked anyway and don¦t give a **** to their shields?
Now you are looking really stupid.
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:13:00 -
[26]
We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Just out of curiosity. Are you going to do the same to the raven and Phoenix?
no _______________ |
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I whole heartedly approve you taking 2 launchers off the ferox.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
The Ferox should lose launcher slots and get another turret, this is supposed to be a railboat, right? Why the wacked out 5/5 loadout? Brutix is a better railboat than this POS.
Kinetic damage only bonus does blow, I'm sorry but it does, maybe if missiles did 2 dmg types I'd say ok, but they don't. Use kinetic of get no bonuses! Awesome.
Freakin' Typhoon gets a launcher ROF bonus but the **** Caldari missile battlecruiser can't? Yeah ok that makes perfect sense. I don't mind kinetic missile damage bonus as a secondary bonus offensive, coupled with ROF on offensive oriented ships, like the Phoenix.
Quote: Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Lasers do way more DPS than launchers, and Amarr ships tend to get more turrets than Caldari get launchers on top of that.. so yeah whatever at least lasers do 2 damage types and Caldari are pretty much restricted to using 1 damage type, lame -- whatever.
How about some thermal only damage bonus for Gallente droneboat drones? Oh wait that deemed too "restricting" for the poor Domi-Ishtar pwnboats..
Anyways, yeah, Drake is a pale shadow of its former self.. the imbalances with this ship is freaking extenders and passive tanking not the offensive capabilities -- which you've killed --.
So anyways thanks for the Caracal +1 launcher.
I don't want to be a **** about it but it's kind of annoying that the Drake was looking like a great offensive small gang ship for Caldari and it got it's balls cut off basically, back to flying cruise missile Ravens I guess.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dixon Edited by: Dixon on 18/11/2006 16:33:29
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Just out of curiosity. Are you going to do the same to the Raven and Phoenix?
EDIT: just to be clear, this isn't a whine. I personally think the kinetic bonus should be our default missile bonus.
Phoenix already has kinetic missile damage bonus. - EVE is sick. |
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:37:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Captain Raynor How about some thermal only damage bonus for Gallente droneboat drones? Oh wait that deemed too "restricting" for the poor Domi-Ishtar pwnboats..
No... you haven't been reading properly.
Or you might just be ignorant as to how drones work.
Come back when your EM missiles do 29% less damage than your kinetic missiles - BEFORE skills. - EVE is sick. |
Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:37:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Dixon on 18/11/2006 16:38:43
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Dixon Edited by: Dixon on 18/11/2006 16:33:29
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Just out of curiosity. Are you going to do the same to the Raven and Phoenix?
EDIT: just to be clear, this isn't a whine. I personally think the kinetic bonus should be our default missile bonus.
Phoenix already has kinetic missile damage bonus.
Right you are, I forgot...
BTW: /signed the thing where the ferox gets some turrets and loses some launchers - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:38:00 -
[33]
Tux if you would drop the resistance bonus and add a RoF bonus on top of the Kinetic bonus then we'd be cooking with gas. And it would be inline with the phoenix's bonus. Anyways the Ferox has the shield resistance bonus that is inline with the Rokh.
How about it?
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:41:00 -
[34]
I don't see why the Drake even has a shield resistance bonus to be honest.
Actually when you look at the Drakes stats they pretty much just copied the Ferox anyways, this ship should be more offense oriented and not so much on defense.
I'd rather lose the shield resist and get missile velocity and rate of fire or something along those lines. Keep the shield resist bonuses for the Caldari railboats, those ships lack DPS and need it a lot more than a ship like the Drake, which (i thought) was supposed to be a damage dealer.
We don't need another Ferox one Ferox is punishment enough.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Captain Raynor How about some thermal only damage bonus for Gallente droneboat drones? Oh wait that deemed too "restricting" for the poor Domi-Ishtar pwnboats..
No... you haven't been reading properly.
Or you might just be ignorant as to how drones work.
Come back when your EM missiles do 29% less damage than your kinetic missiles - BEFORE skills.
So what's it matter? Thermal damage bonus, thermal drones are technically the best, why not thermal only? Why is it okay for Caldari and not Gallente? I mean crap you can load up turrets on top of your Drones anyways, Dominix is a hardcore DPS dealer when fitted with guns when you add the drone damage in.
I'm fully aware that EM drones are the worst and Thermal the best in terms of DPS, thanks for the memo though.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
The Ferox should lose launcher slots and get another turret, this is supposed to be a railboat, right? Why the wacked out 5/5 loadout? Brutix is a better railboat than this POS.
Kinetic damage only bonus does blow, I'm sorry but it does, maybe if missiles did 2 dmg types I'd say ok, but they don't. Use kinetic of get no bonuses! Awesome.
Freakin' Typhoon gets a launcher ROF bonus but the **** Caldari missile battlecruiser can't? Yeah ok that makes perfect sense. I don't mind kinetic missile damage bonus as a secondary bonus offensive, coupled with ROF on offensive oriented ships, like the Phoenix.
Freaking Typhoon does get a bonus to half its weapon system, admittedly its a good bonus but don't even try to compare a 5% rate of fire bonus on 4 launcher slots to a 5% kinetic damage on 6.
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Quote: Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Lasers do way more DPS than launchers, and Amarr ships tend to get more turrets than Caldari get launchers on top of that.. so yeah whatever at least lasers do 2 damage types and Caldari are pretty much restricted to using 1 damage type, lame -- whatever.
YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ******* damage type you want.
I was gonna reply to the rest but tbh I'm way to busy to argue on the forums. _______________ |
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:53:00 -
[37]
Tux, if you are busy that is cool. I'm not really down with arguing but look the point I'm trying to make is this.
Drake was overpowered in terms of tank, not its missiles.
The ROF bonus is better than the kinetic missile damage bonus, which is not popular for PvP by not just me but by just about everyone who flies Caldari ships in general.
I do not think the Drake should have hit tranquility the way it was, yes it was too strong, I agree with removing one of the launchers but to change the bonuses was just too heavy handed when you could have simply taken 1 launcher off and changed the shield resist bonus to something else, like missile velocity bonus.
The Drakes imbalance wasn't heavy assault missiles or it's offense what so ever, the imbalance is the shield resist bonus plus the fact people were fitting loads of extenders, getting really high resists and 25k shields making them incredibly hard to kill for a battlecruiser, that is what the complaint was, not the missiles.
So yes you killed the Drake pretty much, it's now a tank oriented ship, we already got tons of those.. we wanted a ship more like the Raven and less like the Ferox, we wanted a small gang ship that could deal DPS, now we have a turtle-mobile, Caldari already have turtle-mobiles, now we have another one, great.
I think the best thing to do would be to make the Drake a more offensive oriented battlecruiser, we already have the Ferox which is geared more to range and tanking so give us back our offensive ship, rate of fire + missile velocity, velocity isn't the bestest bonus ever but it would balance the ship out more since the ROF bonus is good.
Shield Resist + Optimal for Railboats Rate of Fire + Missile Velocity for Missileboats
Those should be the standard bonuses for Caldari, in my opinion..
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:54:00 -
[38]
You see, when I say this stuff no one listens. A Dev steps up and says the same stuff, and still no one listens. For the most part kiddos, the ships in eve are fairly well balanced and setup. If you can't make them work you really are limited to thinking inside the box. And hey, guess what, Tux isn't forcing you to fly these ships. If you don't like them then stick to your ferox or your Raven. ----
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Ed Gein
Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:57:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Ed Gein on 18/11/2006 16:58:01 *runs and hides
I always base how good a damage type is by how often it is hardened against in pvp. For instance people always gave em such a bad rap because "omg em sucks agains armor!1!!!!!" but if you think about it, even hardened, shields only have a 55% em res and armor (in the past) rarely got em hardened so most ships just had the base em res which would be lower than the other three types being hardened.
EAN2's sort of changed the game on that though. Same sort of deal with explosive on shields, but un-nerfing of invuln fields had the same effect that ean's 2.
Why am I am rambling? In the past kinetic damage in pvp did sort of suck because if you were shield tanking, or armor tanking, kinetic would always be hardened giving it a higher average resistance going from fight to fight.
All in all though, not sure its quite the big deal that used it to because of the rampant use of ean and invulns.
-------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Commoner
Caldari Emergent Chaos The Core Collective
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Matrix Aran You see, when I say this stuff no one listens. A Dev steps up and says the same stuff, and still no one listens. For the most part kiddos, the ships in eve are fairly well balanced and setup. If you can't make them work you really are limited to thinking inside the box. And hey, guess what, Tux isn't forcing you to fly these ships. If you don't like them then stick to your ferox or your Raven.
By no means, i wont fly the drake, as i will do better in a scorpion which is only a tad more expensive than this one :) (And just a tad slower too).
The point is, why waste database space with a ship which role already is fulfilled by another alot cheaper ship? The caracal seems much more flexible than this one.
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.18 16:58:00 -
[41]
What about jav HAMs? You still going to nerf those? I realize now that you guys are going to leave the drake in its current ****ty state(don't give me ****, drake was already the least damaging of the new BCs even with HAMs) So now I don't care about the Drake. Just nerf jav HAMs because otherwise people will scream NH nerf when this patch hits TQ.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:00:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ed Gein *runs and hides
I always base how good a damage type is by how often it is hardened against in pvp. For instance people always gave em such a bad *****because "omg em sucks agains armor!1!!!!!" but if you think about it, even hardened, shields only have a 55% em res and armor (in the past) rarely got em hardened so most ships just had the base em res which would be lower than the other three types being hardened.
EAN2's sort of changed the game on that though. Same sort of deal with explosive on shields, but un-nerfing of invuln fields had the same effect that ean's 2.
Why am I am rambling? In the past kinetic damage in pvp did sort of suck because if you were shield tanking, or armor tanking, kinetic would always be hardened giving it a higher average resistance going from fight to fight.
All in all though, not sure its quite the big deal that used it to because of the rampant use of ean and invulns.
Honestly I feel like EM is one of the best damage types to use in PvP, it depends though, against shield tanks generally thermal is the lowest.. usually followed by EM.
Against armor tanks, EM is usually the lowest unless it's a pure EANM II setup, which I guess is popular nowadays but I've seen lots of people fit actives and a few EANM II over that thus making EM the lowest resist, albiet still rather high in the mid 70s.
I guess explosive is still the king of PvP damages though because shield tankers generally ignore reinforcing it and it's the biggest hole in armor on t1 ships.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Captain Raynor How about some thermal only damage bonus for Gallente droneboat drones? Oh wait that deemed too "restricting" for the poor Domi-Ishtar pwnboats..
No... you haven't been reading properly.
Or you might just be ignorant as to how drones work.
Come back when your EM missiles do 29% less damage than your kinetic missiles - BEFORE skills.
So what's it matter? Thermal damage bonus, thermal drones are technically the best, why not thermal only? Why is it okay for Caldari and not Gallente? I mean crap you can load up turrets on top of your Drones anyways, Dominix is a hardcore DPS dealer when fitted with guns when you add the drone damage in.
I'm fully aware that EM drones are the worst and Thermal the best in terms of DPS, thanks for the memo though.
So why are you being emo, then, Captain?
Look, this is how it is. Thermal drone 100% damage ; EM drone 71% damage ; evenly scaled between that. Kinetic missile 100% damage ; All other missiles 80% damage.
What's the problem, really? Drone damage ships tend to have just about the damage support from turrets as missile ships have from drones and turrets (not much, and it steals fitting, which is tight).
It seems to me that those who are agitated over the missile damage bonus tend to use drones as prime example most of the time. But what the real situation is that missiles aren't at all "left behind" in the selectable damage department. They are, in fact, rather similar to how it works with just about every other weapon type in game - you want to do some other damage than your racial preference, you lose damage. Just like everyone else. - EVE is sick. |
Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Captain Raynor How about some thermal only damage bonus for Gallente droneboat drones? Oh wait that deemed too "restricting" for the poor Domi-Ishtar pwnboats..
No... you haven't been reading properly.
Or you might just be ignorant as to how drones work.
Come back when your EM missiles do 29% less damage than your kinetic missiles - BEFORE skills.
So what's it matter? Thermal damage bonus, thermal drones are technically the best, why not thermal only? Why is it okay for Caldari and not Gallente? I mean crap you can load up turrets on top of your Drones anyways, Dominix is a hardcore DPS dealer when fitted with guns when you add the drone damage in.
I'm fully aware that EM drones are the worst and Thermal the best in terms of DPS, thanks for the memo though.
So why are you being emo, then, Captain?
Look, this is how it is. Thermal drone 100% damage ; EM drone 71% damage ; evenly scaled between that. Kinetic missile 100% damage ; All other missiles 80% damage.
What's the problem, really? Drone damage ships tend to have just about the damage support from turrets as missile ships have from drones and turrets (not much, and it steals fitting, which is tight).
It seems to me that those who are agitated over the missile damage bonus tend to use drones as prime example most of the time. But what the real situation is that missiles aren't at all "left behind" in the selectable damage department. They are, in fact, rather similar to how it works with just about every other weapon type in game - you want to do some other damage than your racial preference, you lose damage. Just like everyone else.
Erm, most Caldari ships don't even get drone bays these days dude especially t2 CCP don't even bother giving us enough room to fit a few light drones anymore and there's no realistic way to fit turrets on any Caldari ships, we don't have enough grid for turrets on our missile ships, if you wanna find a fitting that proves me wrong, go for it but it's usually hard enough to fit an undersized nosferatu on most caldari missile boats.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:11:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Captain Raynor The Drakes imbalance wasn't heavy assault missiles or it's offense what so ever, the imbalance is the shield resist bonus plus the fact people were fitting loads of extenders, getting really high resists and 25k shields making them incredibly hard to kill for a battlecruiser, that is what the complaint was, not the missiles.
To add to this:
And that the BCs got an 100% HP boost (including shields), but only a 50% higher shield recharge. So the drake and ferox have not only the effective 33% HP (and resulting passive tank) boost due to the resistance bonus, but also *another* "free" 33% passive tank boost due to the higher regeneration.
Resulting together in an 77% better passive tank than you would have on a BC without resistance bonus on TQ.
("Better" in terms of "max dps they can tank indefinately", not in max HP)
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:15:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/11/2006 21:06:56 Maybe they are trying to shut up the "OMG FEROX IS USELESS!!!111LOL" people.
If they make the Ferox have 7 turret slots like other BCs, that'd shut those people up too.
And the caldari Railboat BC would actually *gasp* be useful!
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:16:00 -
[47]
Now would probably be a bad idea to bring up Khanid Mark II...
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:20:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tuxford Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
We would love you long time for this. We are talking six-pack of vaseline and a spatula type love too.
Of course it would be horrendously overpowering.........but think about it <winks>
Quote: Possibility of changing the Raven ROF to a kin bonus
I wish you would consider this. It's one of the reasons that all non-raven bs are so incredibly inferior to the Raven for NPC/missions. It would help balance things out both pvp and npc. At least the megas could attempt to tank specifically for Ravens. Something they can do for any other ship *except* the Raven.
In any case I am glad to hear that you are going to leave the Drake as is.
Caldari Folks: The Drake isn't huring for DPS after the changes.
2nd best DPS past 15km? Yes please.
Racial damage is one of the balancing factors of Eve. All four races should be subject to it. Not just 3 out of the four.
Nyxus
Originally by: keepiru I cant imagine a stronger signal of how pants 3/4 of new BS are than the fact that Matari will be training Amarr BS and Amarrians will be training Large Projectile to use the same ship |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:23:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Tux, you once said Teir2 BCs would gank and not tank.
So why did you remove the gank from the Drake, and not the tank?
Kinetic damage doesn't suck, but the recent changes to the Drake do. Would it really be that bad to have the Drake be ROF and missile velocity? It'd fit the 'gank not tank' idea alot better than kinetic dmg only, and a resists bonus.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Scoundrelus
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tuxford
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I truly do not think truer words have ever been spoken. By the way I fly Amarr and yes, I'd love to do some explosive damage. =============================================== And Scoundrelus walked the Forums once again, and all was turned to flame... |
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Isyel
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:24:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Isyel on 18/11/2006 17:25:23
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 16/11/2006 21:06:56 Maybe they are trying to shut up the "OMG FEROX IS USELESS!!!111LOL" people.
If they make the Ferox have 7 turret slots like other BCs, that'd shut those people up too.
And the caldari Railboat BC would actually *gasp* be useful!
What other BCs have 7 guns? They even nerfed the hurricane and gave it 6 now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I be needin' some sig love. *sigh* |
xOm3gAx
Caldari Bre-X
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:25:00 -
[52]
Edited by: xOm3gAx on 18/11/2006 17:28:21 Edited by: xOm3gAx on 18/11/2006 17:27:21
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Tux, i wanna make it clear im not whining at all first cus tbh im just glad we have more choices in ships. But the drake did recieve a double nerf and kinetic is the MOST tanked dmg type in eve as it is the primary dmg type for the vast majority of ammo types (stop me if im wrong) so with that being said could we have kept the ROF bonus to test balance before instigating the double nerf recieved. I do agree that the dmg bonus is nice though not quite as effective as it could be which i think anyone who participates in pvp combat knows. If you shield tank you generally have (when not using 3x+ invulns) 2x em 1x kinetic and usually a thermal passive. Armor is usually 2x kinetic 1x thermal 1x explosive with 1x em passive if really needed. In all reality (and i do know theres a really large variety of other possible setups but this is what i've seen the most god knows i've been in my share of fleet battles i was there at U-QVWD and when there were skirmishes before the actual fleet battle those were the general tanks seen based on loot dropped. U-QVWD if you dont remember was one of the last great fights the CA put out before our down fall.) So i'm just curious why can't we have ROF if we dont get 2 dmg types, we know time to target is still an issue and we also know that unless you get in close with missiles dps doesnt count for squat and you have to rely on burst dmg to break the targets tank. So with 1 dmg type ( and if u give a bonus to kinetic u do limit us to that ) you generally break us. Drop a mid and give ROF back and i think it will solve the problems with ppl complaining. You still get your double nerf and we get our ROF. If you read this thanks for your time if you respond then thank you even more.
Also when tanking its not longer a 25% bonus to dmg assuming maxed skills as after tanking if a ship is tanked according to how at least i've generally seen them tanked then you gain a negative bonus to kinetic and actually do more dmg with other types such as thermal. Thanks again tux.
Edit: also im all for you removing 2+ launchers from teh ferox =P If you do can we get 1 more turret and maybe a touch more pg though for fitting it =)
-xOm ---------------------------------------- http://www.oldnumber7.com/forumpic.gif Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:38:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Nyxus Caldari Folks: The Drake isn't huring for DPS after the changes.
And all it takes is T2 ammo, and LASERS.
Oh yes, lasers on a shield-tanker, I bet that's just tons of fun.
And I see you show that graph using kinetic. Now drop it to something else, and look at that uber sub-300DPS gankage.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Bre-X
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:39:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Isyel
Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 18/11/2006 17:28:21 Edited by: xOm3gAx on 18/11/2006 17:27:21
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Tux, i wanna make it clear im not whining at all first cus tbh im just glad we have more choices in ships. But the drake did recieve a double nerf and kinetic is the MOST tanked dmg type in eve as it is the primary dmg type for the vast majority of ammo types (stop me if im wrong) so with that being said could we have kept the ROF bonus to test balance before instigating the double nerf recieved. I do agree that the dmg bonus is nice though not quite as effective as it could be which i think anyone who participates in pvp combat knows. If you shield tank you generally have (when not using 3x+ invulns) 2x em 1x kinetic and usually a thermal passive. Armor is usually 2x kinetic 1x thermal 1x explosive with 1x em passive if really needed. In all reality (and i do know theres a really large variety of other possible setups but this is what i've seen the most god knows i've been in my share of fleet battles i was there at U-QVWD and when there were skirmishes before the actual fleet battle those were the general tanks seen based on loot dropped. U-QVWD if you dont remember was one of the last great fights the CA put out before our down fall.) So i'm just curious why can't we have ROF if we dont get 2 dmg types, we know time to target is still an issue and we also know that unless you get in close with missiles dps doesnt count for squat and you have to rely on burst dmg to break the targets tank. So with 1 dmg type ( and if u give a bonus to kinetic u do limit us to that ) you generally break us. Drop a mid and give ROF back and i think it will solve the problems with ppl complaining. You still get your double nerf and we get our ROF. If you read this thanks for your time if you respond then thank you even more.
Also when tanking its not longer a 25% bonus to dmg assuming maxed skills as after tanking if a ship is tanked according to how at least i've generally seen them tanked then you gain a negative bonus to kinetic and actually do more dmg with other types such as thermal. Thanks again tux.
Edit: also im all for you removing 2+ launchers from teh ferox =P If you do can we get 1 more turret and maybe a touch more pg though for fitting it =)
-xOm
Since when it is the most tanked? Thought Amarr are complaining all along that they suck because EANM + DCU tanks are so popular. Meaning Kinetic is among the lowest resists.
Isyel, read it again its assuming active tanks and tanking specific dmg types just by the setup listing. You are right about the EANM + DCU tanks though they are over powered. So uh it still the most tanked dmg type =) Its used by more races as a primary dmg type and is tanked more as such by more actual pvp'rs who dont do blobbing and the like you know when running an active tank is pointless? Seriously though in skirmish warfare running an active tank when knowing thine nme comes into play as it often does ppl use active tanks and specificly tank the dmgs types they know them to do especially is the RPG environment that many corps are into. ---------------------------------------- http://www.oldnumber7.com/forumpic.gif Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:45:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 17:48:04 Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 17:46:52
Originally by: Matrix Aran You see, when I say this stuff no one listens. A Dev steps up and says the same stuff, and still no one listens. For the most part kiddos, the ships in eve are fairly well balanced and setup. If you can't make them work you really are limited to thinking inside the box. And hey, guess what, Tux isn't forcing you to fly these ships. If you don't like them then stick to your ferox or your Raven.
You can't beat math. And you can't tell people with a straight face to go fly something else when the developers have decided to overnerf a ship that didn't deserve such harsh treatment. Its crap. It has 1 more launcher than a caracal... do you understand this? It has 1 more launcher than a caracal. That means it is a floating tankacal for 30 more million isk. Bleh!
Some people have millions of SP invested into missiles and will never see damage scaling from cruiser to battlecruiser like turret users. It will be kestrel -> hawk -> caracal -> Nighthawk -> cerberus -> raven to actually see your skills at work.
Where as a minmatar will be rifter -> jaguar -> wolf -> stabber -> rupture -> vagabond -> cyclone -> muninn -> claymore -> hurricane -> sliepnir -> tempest/maelstrom
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:48:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Nyxus Caldari Folks: The Drake isn't huring for DPS after the changes.
And all it takes is T2 ammo, and LASERS.
Oh yes, lasers on a shield-tanker, I bet that's just tons of fun.
And I see you show that graph using kinetic. Now drop it to something else, and look at that uber sub-300DPS gankage.
One thing most people seem to forget is that T2 missle launchers tend to cost around 10mil a piece. Most turret users are too use to their dirt cheap affordable T2 turrets(only like 1-3mil normally). The set up is fine for mission running. I wouldn't fit T2 missle launchers in pvp, thats 60mil more isk that isn't worth losing.
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DarK
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:51:00 -
[57]
Module cost is not relevant to balance.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And I see you show that graph using kinetic. Now drop it to something else, and look at that uber sub-300DPS gankage.
Because the other BCs can freely vary their damage types without loosing dps.
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:56:00 -
[59]
LMAO, ok. Cost doesn't matter eh? Thats the most rediculous thing I've heard yet. I demand all T2 ships be nerfed to T1 ships stats then. T2 ships are unbalanced then if the cost doesn't matter. Ignorant bastard.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:04:00 -
[60]
Well by now I simply have given up to discuss against some of those Anti-Caldari guys and now it seems even more ridiculous to try to make Tux giving the Drake at least a chance to compete in PvP by giving back the RoF bonus.
Yes, Caldari boats are awesome in PvM due to the fact that you just can spam missiles. However, EvE online isn't only about PvM. Of course we could begin a missile discussion again, but I think this would only end up in flaming and nonsense ^^
The only reason why the Drake should get back it's RoF bonus is to compete in PvP. To be honest, most people testing the Drake and pwning around on SiSi made pure tank&gank fittings and due to the fact no one cares about his ships on SiSi, they fight until the end. So, everyone cried "it's to uber! nerf it!". The nerf came and again we Caldaris have a ship that will hardly be seen in PvP due to it's very limited capability to survive in combat. It's pretty easy, the one with the bigger dmg output will usually win.
Now taking a look on Ferox and Drake: Now they are pretty much the same and many people answer on RoF request: "Hey, take the Raven!" So, why can the Raven compete in RvR? It's because of it's RoF bonus. So why not giving the Drake this by Caldarian players most wanted RoF bonus? It's pretty obvious. The non-caldarians would have to battle against an opponent that COULD be a danger to them, because a Drake with RoF bonus is able to answer back an attack at close range.
Until the Drake was introduced, Caldari players had to stay on long ranged combat (except Cerberus maybe) meaning the opponent could always warp out if you hadn't a tackler by your side.
I can only kindly ask you, Tuxford to run some further tests on Drake with RoF bonus by yourself and your DEV team considering you test with chracters with comparable skills and fittings that are common in Tranquility PvP.
Greets Asa
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Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:06:00 -
[61]
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight LMAO, ok. Cost doesn't matter eh? Thats the most rediculous thing I've heard yet. I demand all T2 ships be nerfed to T1 ships stats then. T2 ships are unbalanced then if the cost doesn't matter. Ignorant bastard.
Well sure, if you're going to compare T1 and T2 then cost isn't an issue. But when you compare weapons within the same classes, just because the tech 2 of missiles might cost more compared to blasters, doesn't mean they should be better. That's just the free market doing its thing.
The ignorant one is you. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
Riley Craven
Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:07:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Your an idiot and always have been. I dont think I have ever seen you think through changes to this game thoroughly even once. If the racial dmg bonuses are so good, why did you drop the racial dmg bonus from the drone users when they all whined like hell on the forums that you changed it within 24 hours. I called you and idiot then and I call you an idiot now. At worst you are a hypocrite.
I could care less about this stupid kin bonus if you at least were consistant with it across all races, but hey since your not, I dont think anyone will think you know what your talking about.
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Imode
Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:09:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Nyxus Caldari Folks: The Drake isn't huring for DPS after the changes.
And all it takes is T2 ammo, and LASERS.
Oh yes, lasers on a shield-tanker, I bet that's just tons of fun.
And I see you show that graph using kinetic. Now drop it to something else, and look at that uber sub-300DPS gankage.
Nice. Not only that, inside of 15k we get absolutely smashed, and with our mids full of tank mods and the slowness of Caldari ships, there's nothing to prevent the other guy from dictating range. ____________________________ Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes |
Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:28:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Aki Yamato on 18/11/2006 18:30:58 Many people ty to convince us that Rof bonush change wont drecrease Drakes DPS, so from from other side i wont increase it much from current state right ? Many people, even alergic on caldary admits that Rof Bonus is step between good and bad ship.
I dont ... eh never mind any more word to this topic are worthless. It's time to switch to heavy railgun skills for Caldari, becose this BC cause is already lost.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.18 18:55:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Aki Yamato Edited by: Aki Yamato on 18/11/2006 18:30:58 Many people ty to convince us that Rof bonush change wont drecrease Drakes DPS, so from from other side i wont increase it much from current state right ? Many people, even alergic on caldary admits that Rof Bonus is step between good and bad ship.
I dont ... eh never mind any more word to this topic are worthless. It's time to switch to heavy railgun skills for Caldari, becose this BC cause is already lost.
Can I have screenshots to prove you're training rail spec? ----
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:04:00 -
[66]
maybe tux has to write it all in caps and use a movie with Troy McClure to explain the obvios so even the last caldari gets it
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:04:00 -
[67]
The Drake is a fine boat - but I would seriously consider Tuxfrod to give it 7 launchers again (with no increase in cpu or powergrid)... with the nerf to RoF bonus people will have to chose between 7 launchers and 2 shield extenders or 6 launchers and 3 shield extenders (which with AWU 4 actually requires at least 1 PDS in lows).
That would be a sweet touch and make the Drake versatile with a choice between nice damage and nice passive tank (requires minimum 3 LSE and 2-4 shield power relays)
Pinky
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000Hunter000
Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:17:00 -
[68]
Whaa whaa whaa, if u think the drake sux for pvp then don't use it.
I'm mostly a missionrunner myself and i use(d) a NH for L4 missions, today i kitted out a drake and OMG!!!
This will be an ubernasty missionrunner peeps!!!
Kit: HI: 6 heavy launchers T2 MED: 1 LSB T2, 2 invulni T2, 2 racialspecific T2 lOW: 2 BCU T2, 1 Named DCU, 1 co proc T2 (didn't fit anything in the remaining hi slots but perhaps a TB or mebbe even a small nossie could fit (TB would be prefered and gonna try that later)
So now i have a T1 ship with NH resists and only a little less dps.
I Love the drake allready lets just hope they don't nerf it any further then this Resized tag... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp :p
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: 000Hunter000 o.0
That about sums it up, the drake will be used for missioning and thats about it.
Most people here are arguing to make it usefull for pvp though.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:36:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Aki Yamato Edited by: Aki Yamato on 18/11/2006 18:30:58 Many people ty to convince us that Rof bonush change wont drecrease Drakes DPS, so from from other side i wont increase it much from current state right ? Many people, even alergic on caldary admits that Rof Bonus is step between good and bad ship.
I dont ... eh never mind any more word to this topic are worthless. It's time to switch to heavy railgun skills for Caldari, becose this BC cause is already lost.
Can I have screenshots to prove you're training rail spec?
You can. here May I ask why do you want this proof ?
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:37:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Asariasha on 18/11/2006 19:37:53
Originally by: 000Hunter000 ...This will be an ubernasty missionrunner peeps!!!...
And exactly this is the reason why so many Caldari are complaining about the nerf. Flying in PvP is obsolete in a Drake. Just another Missionrunner boat, but we really really want to have a decent close range boat to compete in PvP. Before Tux nerfed the Drake it was such a vessel and right now after the nerf, the Drake is around as good as a Ferox in terms of PvP competition. And I think most of you know how easily a Ferox gets pwned by a Brutix/Cyclone/Prophecy considering the opponents are fitted with casual PvP setup. And don't tell me Ferox has plenty meds to jam. With Kali only ECM specialized ships are able to use ECM in a successive way.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:37:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Keta Min maybe tux has to write it all in caps and use a movie with Troy McClure to explain the obvios so even the last caldari gets it
What, that Caldari are ment to be a PvE race?
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Leviathan Corperation LTD
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:44:00 -
[73]
u guys tried the heavy assault missiles yet? for getting up close and personal this seems to be it, i mean 3 sec refire? times 6? i still don't get what all u people are complaining about, it's a good ship and i'm gonna love using it, mebbe even for pvp.
Prolly me but i don't get peoples obsession with numbers, i've flown it and loved it, thats all that matters to me. Resized tag... hope this pleases the tag ninjas from ccp :p
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Jasai Kameron
The Palladium Union
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:44:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 18/11/2006 19:45:46
Originally by: Riley Craven Your an idiot and always have been. I dont think I have ever seen you think through changes to this game thoroughly even once. If the racial dmg bonuses are so good, why did you drop the racial dmg bonus from the drone users when they all whined like hell on the forums that you changed it within 24 hours. I called you and idiot then and I call you an idiot now. At worst you are a hypocrite.
I could care less about this stupid kin bonus if you at least were consistant with it across all races, but hey since your not, I dont think anyone will think you know what your talking about.
But drones are different.
The damage reduction is already built in to drones. EM tech 2 drones have a damage modifier of 1.38, Thermal t2 drones have a damage modifier of 1.92. That's before before skills. If the ship bonus was racial damage only it would be a double damage reduction - a fair one plus a ridiculously huge one given that the bonus is 10% damage and hp per level. Drones which aren't thermal would be completely unusable on a drone ship like the Dom or the Ishtar. At a rough guess, they'd do about half the dps. Not to mention having less hp and being easier to destroy.
You can still use non-kinetic missiles on the Drake without such a huge reduction in dps. Therefore the comparison to Drone isn't fair and Tux is not an idiot, nor a hypocrite. It's just that the different weapon systems work differently.
Edited: Anyone who wants to make my maths better is welcome to.
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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
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Posted - 2006.11.18 19:57:00 -
[75]
What do u really want?
U want a ship that does the same or almost the same dps like any other turret Battlecruiser. That all combined with a weapon that everytime hits with full effect, doesn¦t rely on tracking and outranges almost every other weapon in it¦s class. And all with a selectable damage type of course.
I tell you something: thats never gonna happen.
You won¦t get your ship that does everything. Everything has a drawback. Missiles can give you big advantages over other weapons but lack a bit in damage. Thats nothing new at all. If you can¦t get used to it than train other weapons. If u want big damage but the other drawbacks than train for other weapons. Thats all what eve is about you can¦t have evrything at once.
And even calling Tux an idiot won¦t help ya. It could even be more contra-productive than you think.
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:31:00 -
[76]
You can't say drake has selectable damage now. Saying that is just being stupid. If you say drake has selectable damage then take 25% of the damage off of the drake from the damage bonus.
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:45:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Keta Min on 18/11/2006 20:46:17
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight You can't say drake has selectable damage now. Saying that is just being stupid. If you say drake has selectable damage then take 25% of the damage off of the drake from the damage bonus.
by that logic turret races like amarr have no selectable range because if they want to shoot further the damage goes down!
oh yea minmatar have no selectable damage either, i want all ammo to do the same dmg as EMP!
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:48:00 -
[78]
You can't use that analogy. We don't gain range by using non kinetic, we just lose damage. The different ammos of turrets is a balance between range and dps. The different damage of kinetic and non kinetic with drake is between +25% damage and +0% damage, all con, no pro.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:48:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Riley Craven
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Your an idiot and always have been. I dont think I have ever seen you think through changes to this game thoroughly even once. If the racial dmg bonuses are so good, why did you drop the racial dmg bonus from the drone users when they all whined like hell on the forums that you changed it within 24 hours. I called you and idiot then and I call you an idiot now. At worst you are a hypocrite.
I could care less about this stupid kin bonus if you at least were consistant with it across all races, but hey since your not, I dont think anyone will think you know what your talking about.
And calling someone an idiot somehow makes him change his mind? You're an idiot... hmm, you didn't change your mind, did you? Tbh from everything i've read so far from Tuxford he seems to have a better grasp of the game and how everything relates then you... why thermal drone bonus was considered bad: 1. it was a 10% per level bonus, at level 5 that would mean that any drone that wasn't doing thermal damage would be doing at least 33% less damage, not just 20% less damage(like it is with a 5% bonus). 2. I said "at least" in the first part because, unlike missiles, drones aren't identical in stats. Thermal drones do most damage, followed by kinetic(-10% from thermal), then explosive(-20%) and finnally EM(-30%). So implement a thermald drone damage bonus only and guess what? the difference becomes huge(from -40% for kinetic to a staggering -60% for em drones). Compared that to 3 missile types doing 20% less then one specific type... Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight You can't use that analogy. We don't gain range by using non kinetic, we just lose damage. The different ammos of turrets is a balance between range and dps. The different damage of kinetic and non kinetic with drake is between +25% damage and +0% damage, all con, no pro.
the pro is using the different dmg type, thus doing more dmg than with kinetic+25%dmg. genius.
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2SecondsTilMidnight
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Posted - 2006.11.18 21:54:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Keta Min
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight You can't use that analogy. We don't gain range by using non kinetic, we just lose damage. The different ammos of turrets is a balance between range and dps. The different damage of kinetic and non kinetic with drake is between +25% damage and +0% damage, all con, no pro.
the pro is using the different dmg type, thus doing more dmg than with kinetic+25%dmg. genius.
Ok, so your agreeing with tux about drake being fine. And about the kinetic damage bonus counting and how the bonus should count for the damage. But your saying that by switching off of kinetic you can do more damage, which basically says that drake has no damage bonus.
I'm getting sick of this argument. Basically I have to sport all T2 launchers and ammo(which is well over 60mil in weaponry alone) just to do subpar damage. This is my last post on the drake, seriously. Keta Min, you win. Your ignorance has won over. I have seen the light. I'm done with caldari BCs. Good luck caldari, I'm respeccing this character, maybe I'll go minmatar since I already have an amarr character.
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.18 22:03:00 -
[82]
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight
Originally by: Keta Min
Originally by: 2SecondsTilMidnight You can't use that analogy. We don't gain range by using non kinetic, we just lose damage. The different ammos of turrets is a balance between range and dps. The different damage of kinetic and non kinetic with drake is between +25% damage and +0% damage, all con, no pro.
the pro is using the different dmg type, thus doing more dmg than with kinetic+25%dmg. genius.
Ok, so your agreeing with tux about drake being fine. And about the kinetic damage bonus counting and how the bonus should count for the damage. But your saying that by switching off of kinetic you can do more damage, which basically says that drake has no damage bonus.
I'm getting sick of this argument. Basically I have to sport all T2 launchers and ammo(which is well over 60mil in weaponry alone) just to do subpar damage. This is my last post on the drake, seriously. Keta Min, you win. Your ignorance has won over. I have seen the light. I'm done with caldari BCs. Good luck caldari, I'm respeccing this character, maybe I'll go minmatar since I already have an amarr character.
you should get a clue before posting in balancing threads. what other reason do you have to switch dmg types than exploiting uneven resistances and doing more dmg? i guess you're one of those people who, when using a caracal/cerb/nighthawk, keep spamming kinetic missiles at a gallente t2 ship just because thats the dmg type you get a bonus for. protip: switching to another dmg type lets you do roughly 100% more dmg without any bonuses compared to kin+25% in that situation. i guess amarr or gallete gunships would really like to have that ability.. but as some other person said caldari can't select dmg type
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.18 22:06:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:07:44 My drake:
6x heavy assault launcher II, 1x med nos 1x AB II, 1x 20k scram, 2x large shield extender, 2x invuln field 2x BCS II, 2x PDS II 3x Core defence field extender
DPS: 412 Shields: 25,048 Resists: all above 60% Near 100% immunity to NOS, no need to worry about transversal, hits out to 80 kilometers.
Results? Pwnage. This ship is STILL overpowered but is closer to balanced now than it was before.
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Falcun
Gallente Asguard Security Service Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.18 22:13:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
The ROF bonus was so sexy though, it almost made me train up for Caldari
But I digress, I believe that Tuxford is right about kinetic damage. It isn't a bad damage type. What is, and isn't a good damage type in combat is more philosophical than pure fact, as one cannot always accurately determine which damage type is the best to use. Sometimes what you can use is the best, and sometimes not. Kinetic damage bonus certainly doesn't kill it, makes it less sexy, but certainly doesn't kill it. --------------------------------------------------
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kalath1032
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Posted - 2006.11.18 22:58:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Falcun
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
The ROF bonus was so sexy though, it almost made me train up for Caldari
But I digress, I believe that Tuxford is right about kinetic damage. It isn't a bad damage type. What is, and isn't a good damage type in combat is more philosophical than pure fact, as one cannot always accurately determine which damage type is the best to use. Sometimes what you can use is the best, and sometimes not. Kinetic damage bonus certainly doesn't kill it, makes it less sexy, but certainly doesn't kill it.
Erm if you dont fly caldari how can you comment just cos you like seeing caldari get nerfed with their rubish kinetic missile bonus when other races get damage bonsus for ALL damagae bnonuses ! alos if you see a caldari ship you know exactly wot its goin gto be using kinetic so you just tank kinetic! IT a rubish bonsues it might as well be a bonsus to cargo space
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murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:07:00 -
[86]
Originally by: kalath1032
Originally by: Falcun
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
The ROF bonus was so sexy though, it almost made me train up for Caldari
But I digress, I believe that Tuxford is right about kinetic damage. It isn't a bad damage type. What is, and isn't a good damage type in combat is more philosophical than pure fact, as one cannot always accurately determine which damage type is the best to use. Sometimes what you can use is the best, and sometimes not. Kinetic damage bonus certainly doesn't kill it, makes it less sexy, but certainly doesn't kill it.
Erm if you dont fly caldari how can you comment just cos you like seeing caldari get nerfed with their rubish kinetic missile bonus when other races get damage bonsus for ALL damagae bnonuses ! alos if you see a caldari ship you know exactly wot its goin gto be using kinetic so you just tank kinetic! IT a rubish bonsues it might as well be a bonsus to cargo space
Do you even play eve? What other races get damage bonuses to all types of damage? Not Gallente, Not Amarr! Minmatar do to a limited extent because they have different ammo types, but it's not a pure damage type as each type of ammo has multiple combinations of damage types and in conjunction with their other attributes (like total damage, range falloff etc) may or may not be the best ammo for a given situation.
Because I said so...
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Zatch
Gallente Inner Void
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:08:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Zatch on 18/11/2006 23:09:18 This isn't a reply to you murder, I agree with you.
For the whiners: Alright, if you're going to complain about the kinetic damage bonus, complain about the Caracal too.
Otherwise, shut the Hell up and fly a Ferox. It's CHEAPER. Stop whining about it. Tux needs a break and if you continue to **** him off, do you really expect him to cave in and make the changes you so selfishly desire? -----
Creator of the standalone EVE Material Level Calculator MLCalc |
kalath1032
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:09:00 -
[88]
explain the 5% bonus to hybrids that in theory is a bonus to all damage types doiung at least two at a time!
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Zatch
Gallente Inner Void
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:11:00 -
[89]
Hybrids can miss much more easily than missiles. You HIT more often with missiles. If you fit the right sized missiles for the fight, you will be hitting for full (-resistance) damage every time (assuming you're not a complete moron firing missiles when the enemy is way out of range, or they're MWDing, in which case rails wouldn't hit either.)
Missiles hit more. Missiles cause damage more often. No need for a global damage boost. -----
Creator of the standalone EVE Material Level Calculator MLCalc |
Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:12:00 -
[90]
Just to be clear, the idea that removing missile hardpoints from the Ferox is at all a boost to the Drake is just laughably stupid, and not the kind of thing we should be seeing from a so-called professional developer. The comparison to the Ferox just highlights how bad the Drake is, when a dedicated missile boat is only marginally better than a RAIL ship at using missiles.
Changes to the Ferox are NOT the solution. All that would accomplish is going from two medicore ships to one mediocre ship and one awful one.
=============================
That said, the solution is simple:
7 launchers. 5% rate of fire. 10% missile velocity.
Listen to your players for once. We DO NOT WANT another high-tank ship with pathetic damage and limited usefulness in PvP. We DO NOT WANT another "amazing mission running ship." NPCing and missions SUCK. Give us a **** T1 PvP ship other than the Raven. It's just stupid that Caldari characters can't even fly their own race's ships in PvP.
What your players want is a high-damage battlecruiser that demands respect as soon as it enters the battle. Cut the tank if you have to, we didn't want 5% resists anyway.
=================================
If we absolutely HAVE to settle for a crippled Drake, it needs +500 grid so it can actually use those high slots. NOS and rails take far too much grid for the Drake in its current form. Cutting the missile firepower is one thing, cutting the missile firepower and leaving nothing to replace it is just wrong. A ship that has to fly around with empty high slots is just wrong.
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:14:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Zatch For the whiners: Alright, if you're going to complain about the kinetic damage bonus, complain about the Caracal too.
Fine. I want 5% rate of fire on the Caracal too. And on the Kestrel, Hawk, and Crow. Happy?
Unfortunately those ships are not in development right now, so the odds of getting a change are much lower. And the Caracal especially is a smaller, much cheaper ship. So having less flexibility and dps at least makes some sense.
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kalath1032
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:15:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Just to be clear, the idea that removing missile hardpoints from the Ferox is at all a boost to the Drake is just laughably stupid, and not the kind of thing we should be seeing from a so-called professional developer. The comparison to the Ferox just highlights how bad the Drake is, when a dedicated missile boat is only marginally better than a RAIL ship at using missiles.
Changes to the Ferox are NOT the solution. All that would accomplish is going from two medicore ships to one mediocre ship and one awful one.
=============================
That said, the solution is simple:
7 launchers. 5% rate of fire. 10% missile velocity.
Listen to your players for once. We DO NOT WANT another high-tank ship with pathetic damage and limited usefulness in PvP. We DO NOT WANT another "amazing mission running ship." NPCing and missions SUCK. Give us a **** T1 PvP ship other than the Raven. It's just stupid that Caldari characters can't even fly their own race's ships in PvP.
What your players want is a high-damage battlecruiser that demands respect as soon as it enters the battle. Cut the tank if you have to, we didn't want 5% resists anyway.
=================================
If we absolutely HAVE to settle for a crippled Drake, it needs +500 grid so it can actually use those high slots. NOS and rails take far too much grid for the Drake in its current form. Cutting the missile firepower is one thing, cutting the missile firepower and leaving nothing to replace it is just wrong. A ship that has to fly around with empty high slots is just wrong.
spot on!
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Mastin Dragonfly
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:15:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Tuxford Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage.
Yeah, but we're just desperate...
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Taran Blake
De Re Metallica
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:23:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Way to go with the extortion threat Tux ... "Shut up or we'll make the Ferox even crappier than it is already!"
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:27:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Just to be clear, the idea that removing missile hardpoints from the Ferox is at all a boost to the Drake is just laughably stupid, and not the kind of thing we should be seeing from a so-called professional developer. The comparison to the Ferox just highlights how bad the Drake is, when a dedicated missile boat is only marginally better than a RAIL ship at using missiles.
Changes to the Ferox are NOT the solution. All that would accomplish is going from two medicore ships to one mediocre ship and one awful one.
=============================
That said, the solution is simple:
7 launchers. 5% rate of fire. 10% missile velocity.
Listen to your players for once. We DO NOT WANT another high-tank ship with pathetic damage and limited usefulness in PvP. We DO NOT WANT another "amazing mission running ship." NPCing and missions SUCK. Give us a **** T1 PvP ship other than the Raven. It's just stupid that Caldari characters can't even fly their own race's ships in PvP.
What your players want is a high-damage battlecruiser that demands respect as soon as it enters the battle. Cut the tank if you have to, we didn't want 5% resists anyway.
=================================
If we absolutely HAVE to settle for a crippled Drake, it needs +500 grid so it can actually use those high slots. NOS and rails take far too much grid for the Drake in its current form. Cutting the missile firepower is one thing, cutting the missile firepower and leaving nothing to replace it is just wrong. A ship that has to fly around with empty high slots is just wrong.
i think he was sarcastically suggesting that ppl stfu. he's not actually going to take launchers of the Ferox.
you know, the whole "i'll turn this car around right now!" move. Cant blame him, its one thing to discuss the changes, its another to scream and rant and foam at the mouth and DEMAND **** like you and the ppl that quote you and write "/signed" and "QFT" the only customer out there and you some how know more about teh evolution of this game than the ppl that brought it into existence.
they have spent 3 years of their lives keeping an incredibly complicated machine running. thats everything from maintenance to development to preserving mechanics and the overall game. you should expect them to get a little defensive when ppl start thinking they not only know better, but that their 15$ a month means they are the chairmen of the board.
agree, disagree and discuss the game. i'm not a fanboy, i critisize stuff often.... but dont confuse that with thinking you know a **** thing about the big picture cause you probably dont.
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:28:00 -
[96]
not that all that was directed towards you Merin, but holy crap i think ppl have got ape **** crazy on the forums. Whiners on berserker mode!
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:49:00 -
[97]
While I do agree that the resistance bonus is, most likely, at the heart of the Drake's problem (essentially, giving a missile ship a tanking bonus is a lot more generous than giving a turret ship the same bonus due to cap, and so on) I must say that the kinetic missile damage bonus is, by large, mostly psychological. The game can be reformed so that a straight missile damage bonus of 5% would have exactly the same effect, but I don't think anyone would complain then.
Changing the resistance bonus to missile velocity is a gem in this thread that is otherwise covered in piles of refuse about perceived unfairness of a kinetic missile damage bonus.
Originally by: HankMurphy not that all that was directed towards you Merin, but holy crap i think ppl have got ape **** crazy on the forums. Whiners on berserker mode!
Let's wait until it wears off and they get winded... err.. I've been playing NWN2 too much. - EVE is sick. |
Penix Schwarzzenheimer
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:54:00 -
[98]
I used to think highly of the CCP team.
Now I've learned that Tuxford is a ***** to the entire Eve community and can't be bothered to take input from those who actually play and pay for the game...
Sigh. |
Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.18 23:57:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Penix Schwarzzenheimer I used to think highly of the CCP team.
Now I've learned that Tuxford is a ***** to the entire Eve community and can't be bothered to take input from those who actually play and pay for the game...
Sigh.
you will notice that devs often take input but not when it is obviously clueless and plainly incorrect like most of the whining.
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Taran Blake
De Re Metallica
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Posted - 2006.11.19 00:00:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Taran Blake on 19/11/2006 00:00:20 The core of this problem is that there is now virtually nothing to distinguish the Drake from the Ferox. Much like the new tier 3 battleships for anything but the Caldari.
The reply to this observation fromt Tux is to petualantly threaten to nerf the Ferox as well, an already mediocre ship.
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Flamewave
Scorn. Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.19 00:13:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Taran Blake Edited by: Taran Blake on 19/11/2006 00:00:20 The core of this problem is that there is now virtually nothing to distinguish the Drake from the Ferox. Much like the new tier 3 battleships for anything but the Caldari.
The reply to this observation fromt Tux is to petualantly threaten to nerf the Ferox as well, an already mediocre ship.
Painfully mediocre, I might add. What most people are looking for is a mini-Raven, I think. It feels like what should be done with the Drake is to:
* Give it a ROF bonus. * Give it back the 7th turret (optional). * Remove the resistance bonus in place of a velocity bonus. * Reduce the range of HAMs, especially Javelin, in accordance with the velocity bonus. * Make it have to choose between good tank and good gank, with gank being the obvious choice.
Caldari have so few tech 1 ships that are good for PVP. Nobody wants to farm missions all day. The only other option is to train for another race and that shouldn't be necessary in a well-balanced game.
So make the Tier 2 battlecruisers like it was said they would be: gank before tank.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.19 00:28:00 -
[102]
This thread should be locked for trolling.
Not just for players trolling other players- Tux is getting a beating here. It is not, in my opinion, acceptable behavior for a person of any maturity, sense, or intelligence to say to another person "You're stupid, you suck!" "I hate you, you're an incompetent **** up" and "Put that guy on a leash". I don't care how bloody angry you are about the virtual space ship that you never had (has always been a ship-in-development) not being invincible anymore, it's childish immature trolling.
I had some sympathy before- I thought the Drake might have deserved a RoF bonus over kinetic (althouth both are, in my opinion, pretty good). Now I think "bugger them, let them have what they're given". I obviously don't matter- but if I think that, how do you think Tux (the guy designing the ****ed thing) feels? You're probably just putting the guy off doing anything.
I'm impressed Tux has managed to keep his cool as long as he has, and I don't blame him for blowing his top in this thread.
All that said, I don't aggree with all the current ship builds in Kali, new and old. The Hype still needs work, as does the Myr. Abaddon needs an overhaul too, and the Maelstrom still needs poking before it's perfect. But yopu're not going to get anything by ranting and flaming the guy.
/end rant. -----------------------------------------------
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 00:37:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Flamewave Painfully mediocre, I might add. What most people are looking for is a mini-Raven, I think. It feels like what should be done with the Drake is to:
* Give it a ROF bonus. * Give it back the 7th turret (optional). * Remove the resistance bonus in place of a velocity bonus. * Reduce the range of HAMs, especially Javelin, in accordance with the velocity bonus. * Make it have to choose between good tank and good gank, with gank being the obvious choice.
Caldari have so few tech 1 ships that are good for PVP. Nobody wants to farm missions all day. The only other option is to train for another race and that shouldn't be necessary in a well-balanced game.
So make the Tier 2 battlecruisers like it was said they would be: gank before tank.
Oh yah, great idea. Let's pretend that the drake is the only ship in the entire game that will ever have a use for HAMs and nerf the missiles themselves around a fictitious bonus that you want to put on the drake, thus ruining the missile for any other ship.
Yah, that'll happen. That'd be like giving the dominix a 1000% bonus to control range and making drone control range 5km to balance it.
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Flamewave
Scorn. Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:01:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Flamewave Painfully mediocre, I might add. What most people are looking for is a mini-Raven, I think. It feels like what should be done with the Drake is to:
* Give it a ROF bonus. * Give it back the 7th turret (optional). * Remove the resistance bonus in place of a velocity bonus. * Reduce the range of HAMs, especially Javelin, in accordance with the velocity bonus. * Make it have to choose between good tank and good gank, with gank being the obvious choice.
Caldari have so few tech 1 ships that are good for PVP. Nobody wants to farm missions all day. The only other option is to train for another race and that shouldn't be necessary in a well-balanced game.
So make the Tier 2 battlecruisers like it was said they would be: gank before tank.
Oh yah, great idea. Let's pretend that the drake is the only ship in the entire game that will ever have a use for HAMs and nerf the missiles themselves around a fictitious bonus that you want to put on the drake, thus ruining the missile for any other ship.
Yah, that'll happen. That'd be like giving the dominix a 1000% bonus to control range and making drone control range 5km to balance it.
Fictitious bonus? You mean the velocity bonus isn't already in the game?
Other than the Drake, Nighthawk, Cerb and Caracal, what other ships are going to use HAMs? Cerb gets a flight time bonus and the Nighthawk is having its precision bonus changed to... I forget, a velocity bonus or something. Forgive me for not recalling.
If you're referring to minmatar ships, autocannons will be in range anyway (such as on the Hurricane; similar to fitting rockets on an autocannon frigate) and artillery would most likely use the regular heavy missiles.
So please specify what, exactly, you refer to - I may have overlooked something.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:13:00 -
[105]
Yhaaa cerberus with range of 227km .. Same speed, explosiv raduis nad speed ad standart HM ...
Everyone is crazy but im the plane.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Denrace
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:20:00 -
[106]
Where's TomB when you need him?
Tom?
TOM?
________________________________________
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:36:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Flamewave Fictitious bonus? You mean the velocity bonus isn't already in the game?
Other than the Drake, Nighthawk, Cerb and Caracal, what other ships are going to use HAMs? Cerb gets a flight time bonus and the Nighthawk is having its precision bonus changed to... I forget, a velocity bonus or something. Forgive me for not recalling.
If you're referring to minmatar ships, autocannons will be in range anyway (such as on the Hurricane; similar to fitting rockets on an autocannon frigate) and artillery would most likely use the regular heavy missiles.
So please specify what, exactly, you refer to - I may have overlooked something.
I mean fictitious as in it's not on the drake atm. As for ships that will use HAMs... Geeze, just take a look at the ships that already use heavy missiles. There are a lot of them and they're in every race. That's why your suggestion was so far off the mark. TONS of cruisers and BCs will use HAMs. So nerfing HAMs so they're only useable on caldari ships would be silly indeed.
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Dahak2150
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:49:00 -
[108]
Ok, since the 25% racial damage type bonus sucks, then we'll need to change several ships.
Inquisitor Succubus Purifier Nemesis Hound Manticore Breacher Kestrel Caracal Cerberus Malediction etc.
Or you could be happy you get a boost to a relatively balanced damage type instead of EM or explosive.
If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a better browser. |
Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 01:51:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:16:58 Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:07:44 My drake:
6x heavy assault launcher II, 1x med nos 1x AB II, 1x 20k scram, 2x large shield extender II, 2x invuln field II 2x BCS II, 2x PDS II 3x Core defence field extender
DPS: 412 Shields: 25,048 Resists: all above 60% Near 100% immunity to NOS, no need to worry about transversal, hits out to 80 kilometers.
Results? Pwnage. This ship is STILL overpowered but is closer to balanced now than it was before.
Woot ? 412 DPS at 80km with Jav missiles ? There is something teribly wrong with your math, so please stop spreading sutch desinformation.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:19:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 19/11/2006 02:27:31
Originally by: Aki Yamato Edited by: Aki Yamato on 19/11/2006 02:12:14
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:16:58 Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:07:44 My drake:
6x heavy assault launcher II, 1x med nos 1x AB II, 1x 20k scram, 2x large shield extender II, 2x invuln field II 2x BCS II, 2x PDS II 3x Core defence field extender
DPS: 412 Shields: 25,048 Resists: all above 60% Near 100% immunity to NOS, no need to worry about transversal, hits out to 80 kilometers.
Results? Pwnage. This ship is STILL overpowered but is closer to balanced now than it was before.
Woot ? 412 DPS at 80km with Jav missiles ? There is something teribly wrong with your math, so please stop spreading sutch desinformation.
BTW o wonder how can you pwn wit that little fact that rage missiles (witch can do 400 DPS at short range) your capacotor recharge rate is something over 30 minutes and even the invu filed suck it to zero in some time.
I used a combination of jav hams and rage hams depending on how far my target was away from me.
My base dmg with each launcher = 215 My RoF with each launcher 3.12
215 x 6 = 1290 1290 / 3.12 = 413.6dps
5,625 speed x 18 sec flight time = 101,250km
That's all javelin HAMs. Don't you think there might be a reason Tuxford says this ship isn't gimped? Hmm? If you actually got ingame and tested this thing like I did, you'd see my numbers are real and your whines are fantasy.
And FYI, when I did use rage HAMs, the NOS and the natural regen kept up with the cap long enough to kill the target every time. This is the difference between paper theorycraft (you) and actual testing (me).
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Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:32:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Tuxford
We can always remove some launcher slots from the Ferox if that boosts the Drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
-----------
Freaking Typhoon does get a bonus to half its weapon system, admittedly its a good bonus but don't even try to compare a 5% rate of fire bonus on 4 launcher slots to a 5% kinetic damage on 6.
YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ******* damage type you want.
I was gonna reply to the rest but tbh I'm way to busy to argue on the forums.
I would like to point out the Moa and Ferox as a prime examples of Caldari ships that are awful to begin with. I have yet to see Moa's on the prowl for PvP and the ones that do are very rare. As for the Ferox, other then a nice tank... well... thats about all it does. Crappy rail platform that preforms better as a missile boat. Need I say more?
Also, threatening to hit the Ferox with the bat some more to make the Drake look better in comparison has the same logic as crippling other marathon runners legs to make you look better in comparison. Yes you'll do better, doesn't mean its right.
As for the Typhoon getting a ROF bonus to "only" half its weapons, well thats the same number of launchers on the tier 1 Scorpion so in effect it is a better missile ship then the Scorpion in addition to the rest of its other weapons. Tough the Scorpion is a ECM ship.
The problem I see with being restricted to Kinetic is that having the bonus for only one damage type means that unless we use Kinetic, the ship basically has only one bonus while the others have 2.
As for threatening the playerbase with possible Nerfs I can see why you were not (allowed?) at Fanfest. ------------------
CEO of TKI
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:38:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar
Originally by: Tuxford
We can always remove some launcher slots from the Ferox if that boosts the Drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
-----------
Freaking Typhoon does get a bonus to half its weapon system, admittedly its a good bonus but don't even try to compare a 5% rate of fire bonus on 4 launcher slots to a 5% kinetic damage on 6.
YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ******* damage type you want.
I was gonna reply to the rest but tbh I'm way to busy to argue on the forums.
I would like to point out the Moa and Ferox as a prime examples of Caldari ships that are awful to begin with. I have yet to see Moa's on the prowl for PvP and the ones that do are very rare. As for the Ferox, other then a nice tank... well... thats about all it does. Crappy rail platform that preforms better as a missile boat. Need I say more?
Also, threatening to hit the Ferox with the bat some more to make the Drake look better in comparison has the same logic as crippling other marathon runners legs to make you look better in comparison. Yes you'll do better, doesn't mean its right.
As for the Typhoon getting a ROF bonus to "only" half its weapons, well thats the same number of launchers on the tier 1 Scorpion so in effect it is a better missile ship then the Scorpion in addition to the rest of its other weapons. Tough the Scorpion is a ECM ship.
The problem I see with being restricted to Kinetic is that having the bonus for only one damage type means that unless we use Kinetic, the ship basically has only one bonus while the others have 2.
As for threatening the playerbase with possible Nerfs I can see why you were not (allowed?) at Fanfest.
losing the bonus is the penalty for using other dmg types than your racial which is kinetic which is a great thing to be capable of. you should just be happy that raven's bonus ended up to be rof and not +5% kin.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:48:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar I would like to point out the Moa and Ferox as a prime examples of Caldari ships that are awful to begin with. I have yet to see Moa's on the prowl for PvP and the ones that do are very rare. As for the Ferox, other then a nice tank... well... thats about all it does. Crappy rail platform that preforms better as a missile boat. Need I say more?
I find myself asking how you'd even know that given that I have yet to meet any ferox pilots who bothered to train railguns?
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Gut Punch
Gallente The Revenant
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:49:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Gut Punch on 19/11/2006 02:51:58
Originally by: Patch86 This thread should be locked for trolling.
Not just for players trolling other players- Tux is getting a beating here. It is not, in my opinion, acceptable behavior for a person of any maturity, sense, or intelligence to say to another person "You're stupid, you suck!" "I hate you, you're an incompetent **** up" and "Put that guy on a leash". I don't care how bloody angry you are about the virtual space ship that you never had (has always been a ship-in-development) not being invincible anymore, it's childish immature trolling.
I had some sympathy before- I thought the Drake might have deserved a RoF bonus over kinetic (althouth both are, in my opinion, pretty good). Now I think "bugger them, let them have what they're given". I obviously don't matter- but if I think that, how do you think Tux (the guy designing the ****ed thing) feels? You're probably just putting the guy off doing anything.
I'm impressed Tux has managed to keep his cool as long as he has, and I don't blame him for blowing his top in this thread.
All that said, I don't aggree with all the current ship builds in Kali, new and old. The Hype still needs work, as does the Myr. Abaddon needs an overhaul too, and the Maelstrom still needs poking before it's perfect. But yopu're not going to get anything by ranting and flaming the guy.
/end rant.
I say let the devs defend the path they want take the game. Too many MMOs I've played in the past have suddenly gone south when the devs stopped defending their positions and just did what they wanted. No communication from leads to lots of upset forums. And I don't think dev blogs count as communication because there needs to be a discussion, not just a dev post and some forum comments. There needs to be dialog between the devs and the people who pay.
That said, I think the Drake nerf was approperate. Too many people do not think outside the "box". And I think Tux made that point earlier.
Gut Punch The Revenant |
Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:50:00 -
[115]
I think Nikolai Novalari the rail afficianado who has almost all his rail/gunning skills maxed won't even touch the Ferox with a 10' pole as a rail ship as pretty good proof. ------------------
CEO of TKI
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Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:52:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Keta Min You should just be happy that raven's bonus ended up to be rof and not +5% kin.
A lot of Caldari ships used to have 5% ROF. Its been slowly changing to 5% Kinetic as time has gone on. ------------------
CEO of TKI
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:57:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Its been slowly changing to 5% Kinetic as time has gone on.
How long has this time been going on? Is there any way to stop it? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Nathanial Victor
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Posted - 2006.11.19 02:58:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar
Originally by: Keta Min You should just be happy that raven's bonus ended up to be rof and not +5% kin.
A lot of Caldari ships used to have 5% ROF. Its been slowly changing to 5% Kinetic as time has gone on.
this isn't the conspiracy you are looking for.
there are no ship bonus's
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:01:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar I think Nikolai Novalari the rail afficianado who has almost all his rail/gunning skills maxed won't even touch the Ferox with a 10' pole as a rail ship as pretty good proof.
Never heard of him.
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Vendrin
Caldari APEX Unlimited Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:07:00 -
[120]
What a joke Tux. As if the Ferox is unbalanced. You just overnerfed the Drake. either give it back the 7th launcher or let it keep the rof bonus. The complaint's weren't about it's damage they were about the fact that it had such a good tank.
The caldari already have a good tank bc, we want a good gank bc, so get rid of the shield resistance bonus, and let the tier two battlecruisers be what YOU said they would be, damage dealers. _____________________________________
APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information! |
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:10:00 -
[121]
yes it is the nerf caldari conspiracy. slowly changing a bonus here, removing a slot there you will be nudged down to amarr level.
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Vendrin
Caldari APEX Unlimited Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:12:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Keta Min yes it is the nerf caldari conspiracy. slowly changing a bonus here, removing a slot there you will be nudged down to amarr level.
The problem is that instead of boosting the other tier 2 bcs to be equal to the Drake, he just did a kneejerk nerf. Just like kneejerk 50% increase to hp and capacitator, doing what's easiest instead of looking at a good way to do things. _____________________________________
APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information! |
Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:14:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox
Yes, but only WHEN YOU ADD MORE TURRET SLOTS. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:18:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar I think Nikolai Novalari the rail afficianado who has almost all his rail/gunning skills maxed won't even touch the Ferox with a 10' pole as a rail ship as pretty good proof.
Never heard of him.
He can't spell my name, but he's correct. I have every conceivable skill maxed out for using the Ferox as a rail ship and I never do it, because it's almost as useless with rails as a T1 Moa. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:20:00 -
[125]
Oh, and the infamous picture.
Remember kids...
--------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:21:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Vendrin
Originally by: Keta Min yes it is the nerf caldari conspiracy. slowly changing a bonus here, removing a slot there you will be nudged down to amarr level.
The problem is that instead of boosting the other tier 2 bcs to be equal to the Drake, he just did a kneejerk nerf. Just like kneejerk 50% increase to hp and capacitator, doing what's easiest instead of looking at a good way to do things.
Excuse me but the last thing this game needs is 4 battlecruisers capable of soloing battleships with ease. That's why you don't always buff. If you have 2 ships at an acceptable power level and 2 ships over that power level, it makes NO sense whatsoever to make 4 ships that are overpowered.
What do you do after that? Buff every other ship in the game too? Nerfing the drake was the right answer.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:22:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari He can't spell my name, but he's correct. I have every conceivable skill maxed out for using the Ferox as a rail ship and I never do it, because it's almost as useless with rails as a T1 Moa.
Why?
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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:25:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar
The problem I see with being restricted to Kinetic is that having the bonus for only one damage type means that unless we use Kinetic, the ship basically has only one bonus while the others have 2.
When I use Laz0rs on my Brutix I lose one ship bonus too. Now that sux!
Give the Brutix a Laz0r Bonus along with Hybrid and Projectile.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:34:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Hydrian Alante
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar
The problem I see with being restricted to Kinetic is that having the bonus for only one damage type means that unless we use Kinetic, the ship basically has only one bonus while the others have 2.
When I use Laz0rs on my Brutix I lose one ship bonus too. Now that sux!
Give the Brutix a Laz0r Bonus along with Hybrid and Projectile.
I lose the bonus on my vexor when people shoot my drones. Unfair! OMG~!
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:34:00 -
[130]
To be honest frigates were changed from rate of fire to racial damage bonus (double dmg bonus mind you..) because something about frig weapons + rof = lag or something since they fire so fast, at least that was the excuse..
Anyways I would like to see rate of fire on caldari ships over kinetic damage, i really don't like the fact caldari get a dmg bonus to 1 damage type while other races get a damage bonus to two, since turret ammo always does two or more damage types.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:37:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Excuse me but the last thing this game needs is 4 battlecruisers capable of soloing battleships with ease. That's why you don't always buff. If you have 2 ships at an acceptable power level and 2 ships over that power level, it makes NO sense whatsoever to make 4 ships that are overpowered.
And guess what, the problem that was making the Drake so powerful was its TANK. The DPS, while high for a missile boat, was still not way out of proportion to what existing BCs can do. But the TANK was far too good.
So naturally the solution was to slash the DPS instead, so now we have a Ferox, and a Ferox with a different model.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:41:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari He can't spell my name, but he's correct. I have every conceivable skill maxed out for using the Ferox as a rail ship and I never do it, because it's almost as useless with rails as a T1 Moa.
Why?
Ever tried shooting at something with 5 medium railguns and no damage bonus?
There's not much point to it, really.
The biggest joke is the range bonus. Yes, it can shoot from farther away, but when it can't kill anything in a reasonable amount of time, and it's slower than my arthritic great-grandmother, your target will be able to move into its own preferred range before you've even dented its shields, making you "ability" to "snipe" irrelevant. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:43:00 -
[133]
Anyway, my final verdict on this thread is exactly what I've been saying for months:
BRING BACK TomB!
He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:43:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Captain Raynor Anyways I would like to see rate of fire on caldari ships over kinetic damage, i really don't like the fact caldari get a dmg bonus to 1 damage type while other races get a damage bonus to two, since turret ammo always does two or more damage types.
I really don't like that I can't put another ammo type in my blasters to do a different type of damage. Want to trade?
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:45:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari He can't spell my name, but he's correct. I have every conceivable skill maxed out for using the Ferox as a rail ship and I never do it, because it's almost as useless with rails as a T1 Moa.
Why?
Ever tried shooting at something with 5 medium railguns and no damage bonus?
There's not much point to it, really.
The biggest joke is the range bonus. Yes, it can shoot from farther away, but when it can't kill anything in a reasonable amount of time, and it's slower than my arthritic great-grandmother, your target will be able to move into its own preferred range before you've even dented its shields, making you "ability" to "snipe" irrelevant.
Snipers are snipers. Their advantage is in range, not in tanking in-close targets. You know that. As for the 5 weapons comment, you be sure to let me know when the ferox only has 5 high slots, ok? Try fitting missiles in the last 2. Jav HAMs can easily match your railgun range.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:46:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness.
Tuxford has to run all his changes by TomB. What's that do to your request?
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Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:48:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Gorion Wassenar on 19/11/2006 03:49:11
Originally by: Hydrian Alante
When I use Laz0rs on my Brutix I lose one ship bonus too. Now that sux!
Give the Brutix a Laz0r Bonus along with Hybrid and Projectile.
The major difference here is that missiles are the Drake's intended weapons and lasers are not the intended weapon of the Brutix. How fun would be only have a rep bonus for only med sheild reppers? ------------------
CEO of TKI
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 03:57:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Snipers are snipers. Their advantage is in range, not in tanking in-close targets. You know that.
Except with the Ferox's low dps and horrible speed, try KEEPING a target at long range long enough to kill it.
Quote: As for the 5 weapons comment, you be sure to let me know when the ferox only has 5 high slots, ok? Try fitting missiles in the last 2. Jav HAMs can easily match your railgun range.
Have you ever tried fitting a Ferox? Fit 5x 250mm rails. Then cry as you realize you have 100% grid use, and 5 mids + 2 highs left to fill. Ok... so you use fitting mods to add some heavy launchers. Now where's your tank? You have about enough grid left to maybe fit a civilian shield booster.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:01:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Have you ever tried fitting a Ferox? Fit 5x 250mm rails. Then cry as you realize you have 100% grid use, and 5 mids + 2 highs left to fill. Ok... so you use fitting mods to add some heavy launchers. Now where's your tank? You have about enough grid left to maybe fit a civilian shield booster.
So your complaint about the ferox is that it can't fit both the biggest guns and a huge tank? God, you caldari types are spoiled by your missile boats.
Name a gunboat that CAN do that.
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:05:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Have you ever tried fitting a Ferox? Fit 5x 250mm rails. Then cry as you realize you have 100% grid use, and 5 mids + 2 highs left to fill. Ok... so you use fitting mods to add some heavy launchers. Now where's your tank? You have about enough grid left to maybe fit a civilian shield booster.
So your complaint about the ferox is that it can't fit both the biggest guns and a huge tank? God, you caldari types are spoiled by your missile boats.
Name a gunboat that CAN do that.
No, it can't fit the biggest guns (necessary to get enough range to actually snipe) and ANY tank. 5x 250mm rails = literally 100% grid use with Engineering V. That means NO tank, not "not a huge tank".
And that STILL leaves your 6th and 7th high slot EMPTY, even if you put fitting mods in your low slots to get a tank.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:14:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin No, it can't fit the biggest guns (necessary to get enough range to actually snipe) and ANY tank. 5x 250mm rails = literally 100% grid use with Engineering V. That means NO tank, not "not a huge tank".
And that STILL leaves your 6th and 7th high slot EMPTY, even if you put fitting mods in your low slots to get a tank.
I knew your math sounded fishy so I just logged in and put 5 250mm railgun IIs on a ferox. 1062 grid used out of 1250.
That's not even close to 100%. Throw on 2 PDS IIs and now you're talking 1378 total grid leaving PLENTY of room for a tank and 2 missiles. If you use your rigs for shield extenders instead of your mids (and thus increasing your PvP potential anyway) you can get over 16,000 shields and a decent passive tank. And it all fits.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:15:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness.
Tuxford has to run all his changes by TomB. What's that do to your request?
The fact that TomB is willing to sign off on Tuxford's dumb ideas does not in any way affect the fact that TomB most likely wouldn't have come up with most of those dumb ideas in the first place, had he been doing the job himself.
As for everything else you said, Merin already answered for me quite nicely. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:17:00 -
[143]
Oh look you posted again before mine hit.
Let's see, you posted about...ooh, dual fitting mod setups. Brilliant --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Earl Walker
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:17:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Earl Walker on 19/11/2006 04:17:34
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:19:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh look you posted again before mine hit.
Let's see, you posted about...ooh, dual fitting mod setups. Brilliant
Power diagnostic systems on a ferox are standard issue. Have you ever even flown this ship? Or did you just decide one day after trying to fit it with low skills that it sucked and you'd never bother?
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:24:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 19/11/2006 04:26:04
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin No, it can't fit the biggest guns (necessary to get enough range to actually snipe) and ANY tank. 5x 250mm rails = literally 100% grid use with Engineering V. That means NO tank, not "not a huge tank".
And that STILL leaves your 6th and 7th high slot EMPTY, even if you put fitting mods in your low slots to get a tank.
I knew your math sounded fishy so I just logged in and put 5 250mm railgun IIs on a ferox. 1062 grid used out of 1250.
That's not even close to 100%. Throw on 2 PDS IIs and now you're talking 1378 total grid leaving PLENTY of room for a tank and 2 missiles. If you use your rigs for shield extenders instead of your mids (and thus increasing your PvP potential anyway) you can get over 16,000 shields and a decent passive tank. And it all fits.
Ok, my mistake, for some reason I thought 250mms were 250 grid not 225. But even considering your level V in a rank 6 skill:
5x 250 II + 2x heavy launcher II (not HAMs) = 127 grid left for tank.
So you can fit most of ONE large extender with MAX fitting skills and two grid mods. And that's no AB/MWD, so you have no ability to hold range while your underwhelming dps wears down the target. This isn't "not an amazing tank", it's a pathetic tank.
The Ferox needs at least one more turret slot, probably two, and the grid to fit rails with an effective setup. Until then, it'll be a poor gunboat, and better as a mediocre missile ship.
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Karandor
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:27:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Have you ever tried fitting a Ferox? Fit 5x 250mm rails. Then cry as you realize you have 100% grid use, and 5 mids + 2 highs left to fill. Ok... so you use fitting mods to add some heavy launchers. Now where's your tank? You have about enough grid left to maybe fit a civilian shield booster.
So your complaint about the ferox is that it can't fit both the biggest guns and a huge tank? God, you caldari types are spoiled by your missile boats.
Name a gunboat that CAN do that.
Cyclone can fit 5X720 II and 3X Heavy missile launchers, large booster, shield boost amp, 2X invul, ABII, 4 PDU II. Mission runner, but a **** nice one :)
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:27:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 19/11/2006 04:26:04
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin No, it can't fit the biggest guns (necessary to get enough range to actually snipe) and ANY tank. 5x 250mm rails = literally 100% grid use with Engineering V. That means NO tank, not "not a huge tank".
And that STILL leaves your 6th and 7th high slot EMPTY, even if you put fitting mods in your low slots to get a tank.
I knew your math sounded fishy so I just logged in and put 5 250mm railgun IIs on a ferox. 1062 grid used out of 1250.
That's not even close to 100%. Throw on 2 PDS IIs and now you're talking 1378 total grid leaving PLENTY of room for a tank and 2 missiles. If you use your rigs for shield extenders instead of your mids (and thus increasing your PvP potential anyway) you can get over 16,000 shields and a decent passive tank. And it all fits.
Ok, my mistake, for some reason I thought 250mms were 250 grid not 225. But even considering your level V in a rank 6 skill:
5x 250 II + 2x heavy launcher II (not HAMs) = 127 grid left for tank.
So you can fit most of ONE large extender with MAX fitting skills and two grid mods. And that's no AB/MWD, so you have no ability to hold range while your underwhelming dps wears down the target. This isn't "not an amazing tank", it's a pathetic tank.
The Ferox needs at least one more turret slot, probably two, and the grid to fit rails with an effective setup. Until then, it'll be a poor gunboat, and better as a mediocre missile ship.
You somehow skipped right over the part where I said you should use your rig slots for extenders instead of your mids.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:28:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Karandor
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Have you ever tried fitting a Ferox? Fit 5x 250mm rails. Then cry as you realize you have 100% grid use, and 5 mids + 2 highs left to fill. Ok... so you use fitting mods to add some heavy launchers. Now where's your tank? You have about enough grid left to maybe fit a civilian shield booster.
So your complaint about the ferox is that it can't fit both the biggest guns and a huge tank? God, you caldari types are spoiled by your missile boats.
Name a gunboat that CAN do that.
Cyclone can fit 5X720 II and 3X Heavy missile launchers, large booster, shield boost amp, 2X invul, ABII, 4 PDU II. Mission runner, but a **** nice one :)
The ferox can do it too (with the rails) if you decide to use 4 fitting mods instead of the 2 I used.
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:32:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 19/11/2006 04:32:34
Originally by: Risien Drogonne You somehow skipped right over the part where I said you should use your rig slots for extenders instead of your mids.
Right... so use your rig slots to make the mediocre ship acceptable, where the other pilots are using their rig slots to make their good ships amazing. Never mind that we don't know if those rigs are going to be reasonably priced, or the equivalent of saying 'well, if you fit 10 billion in officer loot, it's a good ship."
Quote: The ferox can do it too (with the rails) if you decide to use 4 fitting mods instead of the 2 I used.
Yay! Brilliant idea! Lets use 4x fitting mods and no damage mods! I wonder what kind of DPS we can get with a pathetic 5 railguns and zero damage mods...
And of course if that number is even remotely acceptable at long range, it's only because of T2 sniper ammo. And we all know how controversial that one is.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:37:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 19/11/2006 04:37:54
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Right... so use your rig slots to make the mediocre ship acceptable, where the other pilots are using their rig slots to make their good ships amazing. Never mind that we don't know if those rigs are going to be reasonably priced, or the equivalent of saying 'well, if you fit 10 billion in officer loot, it's a good ship."
Give me an example of people using their rigs to make "their good ships amazing". I see this nonsense all the time and it's just that: nonsense.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yay! Brilliant idea! Lets use 4x fitting mods and no damage mods! I wonder what kind of DPS we can get with a pathetic 5 railguns and zero damage mods...
You're not really that good at following a debate, are ya. 4 fitting mods isn't what I would do. I asked for an example of a ship that could fit its biggest guns AND a huge tank. Someone gave me an example with 4 fitting mods so I pointed out that the ferox could do it with 4 fitting mods too. Try to keep up, please.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin And of course if that number is even remotely acceptable at long range, it's only because of T2 sniper ammo. And we all know how controversial that one is.
Oh, so now you not only don't want to use any PDS, don't want to use any rigs and you want to use the biggest guns, but you don't want to use T2 ammo either. Christ, no wonder you think this ship sucks. Guess what? It ain't the ship.
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:42:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 19/11/2006 04:37:54
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Right... so use your rig slots to make the mediocre ship acceptable, where the other pilots are using their rig slots to make their good ships amazing. Never mind that we don't know if those rigs are going to be reasonably priced, or the equivalent of saying 'well, if you fit 10 billion in officer loot, it's a good ship."
Give me an example of people using their rigs to make "their good ships amazing". I see this nonsense all the time and it's just that: nonsense.
Take any of the top PvP ships in the game. Now add rigs that improve their already-strong stats. Result: amazing ship.
I doubt all those Raven pilots are going to be adding armor tanking rigs to their ship. You think they might go for missile damage maybe? Or shield tank improvements?
Quote: Oh, so now you not only don't want to use any PDS, don't want to use any rigs and you want to use the biggest guns, but you don't want to use T2 ammo either. Christ, no wonder you think this ship sucks. Guess what? It ain't the ship.
Of course you should use T2 ammo, that's what the T2 guns are there for. But the point is if you're getting long-range damage that can break the tank on an Ibis, it's not because the Ferox itself is a good ship. It's because T2 ammo is good enough that it can turn an awful ship into a mediocre one.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 04:47:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Take any of the top PvP ships in the game. Now add rigs that improve their already-strong stats. Result: amazing ship.
No, I'm not letting you off that easy. I want specific examples listing specific ships with specific setups and specific rigs.
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Merin Ryskin
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:02:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 19/11/2006 05:03:28
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Take any of the top PvP ships in the game. Now add rigs that improve their already-strong stats. Result: amazing ship.
No, I'm not letting you off that easy. I want specific examples listing specific ships with specific setups and specific rigs.
I just gave you an example. Take your average Raven that everyone agrees is a very strong ship with no major downsides in small-group PvP. Or a nos-Dominx, or whatever. No matter what rigs you fit on them, you're taking a ship that's already fine without rigs and making it even better.
Compare this to your rig-based Ferox where you need your rigs just to make the setup WORK. Without rigs, your setup is pathetic and unworkable. With rigs, you're wasting slots and potentially a lot of money just to bring it up to a level of quality that other ships ALREADY reach.
It's the equivalent of saying "well, if I spend 10 billion in officer loot, the Ferox is good." Well guess what, put that 10 billion in officer loot on a ship that's ALREADY good, and you have a ship that becomes unbeatable.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:24:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Keta Min you should get a clue before posting in balancing threads. what other reason do you have to switch dmg types than exploiting uneven resistances and doing more dmg?
Yes let's give missiles 1/2 the damage of turrets because they can hit that 70% resisted damage type instead of the 75% one.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:35:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Have you ever tried fitting a Ferox? Fit 5x 250mm rails. Then cry as you realize you have 100% grid use, and 5 mids + 2 highs left to fill. Ok... so you use fitting mods to add some heavy launchers. Now where's your tank? You have about enough grid left to maybe fit a civilian shield booster.
So your complaint about the ferox is that it can't fit both the biggest guns and a huge tank? God, you caldari types are spoiled by your missile boats.
Name a gunboat that CAN do that.
I bet a Brutix has no problems fitting 5 250mm railguns and a tank.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:47:00 -
[157]
Well, this discussion is not about Dominix, Raven or rigs. It is just about a comparison of Ferox and Drake and as many people already could realize: Ferox and Drake are now with the changed bonus almost the same ships. I can understand that Risien cries and cries and cries. As an Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar player I'd complain too, because it can not be that Caldari players get a ship which can compete to the blaster/laser/AC boats and with the opportunity of having faster ships than Caldari ones, they got the "i win button".
What is the problem about giving us Caldaris something like a smaller version of the Raven which to be honest is a mission runner ship. Ever saw a Raven in fleet OPs? No, in most alliances it is forbidden to use in fleetOPs due to the fact of missiles delayed impact.
Please, just turn the horrible kinetic bonus to RoF. It's enough to loose a launcher HP. The current nerf would be the same as taking 50m¦ of Myrmidons drone bay and additional taking away one turret. It would also be the same to take away Harbingers 7th turret and adding some crappy bonus in exchange for Harbingers 10% cap need bonus. I havent seen any players complaining about Myrmidon/Harbinger to be too powerful, yet. Actually most agreed to pimp it a bit, so I ask everyone to just understand us Caldaris in our need for RoF bonus.
And pls stop harassing Tux. i guess he has got enough to do. Keep it a fair discussion and maybe we all get what we want to have.
@Tux: Drake - RoF instead of kinetic bonus Myrmidon - a bit more Drone space Ammar/Minmatar - think they are happy with their tier2 BC, because they didnt cry, yet ;)
Greets Asa
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 06:18:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin I just gave you an example. Take your average Raven that everyone agrees is a very strong ship with no major downsides in small-group PvP. Or a nos-Dominx, or whatever. No matter what rigs you fit on them, you're taking a ship that's already fine without rigs and making it even better.
And it still has no ability to tackle or get out of range or keep something in range. That's "no downsides" to you, huh?
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 10:55:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 19/11/2006 02:27:31
Originally by: Aki Yamato Edited by: Aki Yamato on 19/11/2006 02:12:14
Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:16:58 Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:07:44 My drake:
6x heavy assault launcher II, 1x med nos 1x AB II, 1x 20k scram, 2x large shield extender II, 2x invuln field II 2x BCS II, 2x PDS II 3x Core defence field extender
DPS: 412 Shields: 25,048 Resists: all above 60% Near 100% immunity to NOS, no need to worry about transversal, hits out to 80 kilometers.
Results? Pwnage. This ship is STILL overpowered but is closer to balanced now than it was before.
Woot ? 412 DPS at 80km with Jav missiles ? There is something teribly wrong with your math, so please stop spreading sutch desinformation.
BTW o wonder how can you pwn wit that little fact that rage missiles (witch can do 400 DPS at short range) your capacotor recharge rate is something over 30 minutes and even the invu filed suck it to zero in some time.
I used a combination of jav hams and rage hams depending on how far my target was away from me.
My base dmg with each launcher = 215 My RoF with each launcher 3.12
215 x 6 = 1290 1290 / 3.12 = 413.6dps
5,625 speed x 18 sec flight time = 101,250km
That's all javelin HAMs. Don't you think there might be a reason Tuxford says this ship isn't gimped? Hmm? If you actually got ingame and tested this thing like I did, you'd see my numbers are real and your whines are fantasy.
And FYI, when I did use rage HAMs, the NOS and the natural regen kept up with the cap long enough to kill the target every time. This is the difference between paper theorycraft (you) and actual testing (me).
Actually I did field testing. I mus consider yo mut be some kind of magician.. Becose even with 2 BCU rof is 3.58 not 3.12 even wit 4 BCU you wont get such high Rof. I also have did a damage testing and base dmg od Javenil was just 170 not 215 (i wonder witch witch magic you get 215 dmg from missile with base dmg 90..)
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 10:58:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Aki Yamato Actually I did field testing. I mus consider yo mut be some kind of magician.. Becose even with 2 BCU rof is 3.58 not 3.12 even wit 4 BCU you wont get such high Rof. I also have did a damage testing and base dmg od Javenil was just 170 not 215 (i wonder witch witch magic you get 215 dmg from missile with base dmg 90..)
Sounds like you need more skills.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:21:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Aki Yamato Actually I did field testing. I mus consider yo mut be some kind of magician.. Becose even with 2 BCU rof is 3.58 not 3.12 even wit 4 BCU you wont get such high Rof. I also have did a damage testing and base dmg od Javenil was just 170 not 215 (i wonder witch witch magic you get 215 dmg from missile with base dmg 90..)
Sounds like you need more skills.
You are funny.. damage of each missile is tuned onmy by warhed upgrades (10%) ship dmg bonus (25%) and heavy assult misile skill (25%) 90*1.1*1.25*1.25=154 even is heavy misiles skill applyes we still have 193 dmg per missile (not yours 215).
So can you be so kind end explaint me what is the catch ?
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Pesadel0
Vagabundos THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:23:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Anyway, my final verdict on this thread is exactly what I've been saying for months:
BRING BACK TomB!
He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness.
You should just Stfu.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:30:00 -
[163]
Well Pesadel0, even though I don't like such a behaviour of insulting GMs in forums I can understand why people do so. All ships that most people liked got killed by Tux' nerfbat. And the only thing this results in is forum flame of some Caldari haters :/
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Alha Qmar
Caldari Xenon Logistics
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:32:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
No its the designer that totally has no clue about game mechanics and what players really want. You don't even try to explain all the nerfs and frustration your forcing on the players. If I was you CEO you would have been fired by now.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:40:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Anyway, my final verdict on this thread is exactly what I've been saying for months:
BRING BACK TomB!
He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness.
You should just Stfu.
/signed, stfu pls. Drake was overpowered, Hurricane was slightly overpowered too. I don't see the Minnies whine as much as you to the bc changes even though they probably needed a good ship more than you did.
It was better than the t2 bc's fs :/
When i'm able to me fit explosive missiles in my pulse lasers u can whine.
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Tsar Maul
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Posted - 2006.11.19 11:49:00 -
[166]
The reason we don't whine as much is because the "nerf" did absolutely nothing to the overpowered setup on the ship, which was:
Dual 180mm II x 7 About 10pg for a random module
MWD II 20km Scrambler Web Injector
MAR II x 2 1600mm II x 1 EANM II x 2 DC/Gyro x 1
All that changed is that you can only fit 6 guns, but because only 50pg was removed from the ship you have room for 2 arbi assault launchers. This gives THE EXACT SAME DPS AS BEFORE, and even gives you more DPS at range. The tank is the same, the damage is the same.
Now, what this "nerf" did affect was artillery (which were never a problem to begin with). However, Minmatar are used to getting ****** in the arse when it comes to artillery so it really wasn't any surprise, hence the lack of moaning.
The ship can only be balanced (i.e. no 1600mm plate and 7 guns) is to either take away its ability to fit artillery (as that's why it has such a huge powergrid) or increase the PG requirements of 1600mm plates to 1000.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:07:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Tsar Maul The ship can only be balanced (i.e. no 1600mm plate and 7 guns) is to either take away its ability to fit artillery (as that's why it has such a huge powergrid) or increase the PG requirements of 1600mm plates to 1000.
..or increase to PG reqs for ACs. Which in turn would require to modify certain OTHER ships as well, but the same will be the case if you change the 1600mm fittings.
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Albrecht Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:41:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Albrecht Wassenar on 19/11/2006 13:46:34 Edited by: Albrecht Wassenar on 19/11/2006 13:44:39 I think the fact that we are even having a debate about this is rediculous. Everyone, and I mean everyone, knows that the Ferox is a craptacular rail boat, on par with the Moa. This should be a red flag to the devs, and at the very least an "oops" would be in order. I dont like coming down on people (devs) who spend hours upon hours working to please everyone, which they know they can't, but the situation is getting to the point where I can't stay quiet any longer. Something is wrong with the way that ships are designed and tweaked and you (the Devs) need to take a step back and take a serious look at the process, because something is wrong and people are mad about it. This is not just the Drake or the Ferox. Numerous ships are broken, and while I am only familiar with the Caldari ones, I know there are ones for each race. Off the top of my head: Kestrel: It can't even fit 4 standard launchers with nothing else on. I can fit it, but people who are just starting out can't. The "then fit t2 gear" is not an appropriate response as most starting players dont have those kind of reasources to throw around. Nor should they be "forced" to join a corp, just to get their **** ship to work out of the box! Moa: Its a rail boat. A poor one. Ferox: (which happens to be the topic) Is a better missle boat than a rail boat, which is totally counter to what is in the description! To summarise, if ships performed like: A) you (the devs) said they would (Drake is going to be a gank ship, not tank) and B) like is says in the ships own description- then I imagine that a lot less people would be crying foul and you (the devs) would be getting a lot less flak from the player base, particularly from the older ones. I swear to god, this whole thing is a result of what I call the T2 ammo fiasco. If you wanted battles to last longer and at shorter distances then why in the hell did you introduce ammo that doubles or even triples damage and/or range!!! Did no one see this coming? Not to mention it's one more thing to separate the "haves" (rich old players who have been whoring their reasearch agents since day 1 and continue the T2 mafia) from the "have nots" [yes I'm quoting Marx, get over it] We have known the the "lottery" system has been broken for years but we just steamed right on ahead off this wonderful cliff we have made for ourselves. ------------------------------------- Join "TKI-net"/"Directivenet" for more information |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:47:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Ever tried shooting at something with 5 medium railguns and no damage bonus?
Heh, let me introduce you to a little friend of mine- the Myrmidon.......... -----------------------------------------------
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Pesadel0
Vagabundos THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:54:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Asariasha Well Pesadel0, even though I don't like such a behaviour of insulting GMs in forums I can understand why people do so. All ships that most people liked got killed by Tux' nerfbat. And the only thing this results in is forum flame of some Caldari haters :/
I can give you a pic of my SP, i got allot of skills in caldari ships but mostly in minmatar.
I can see your point that the tux nerfed the drake and the hurricane allot,and it was more that they deserved.
BUT NOTHING GIVES YOU/ME GUYS THE RIGTH TO CALL HIM OR OTHER DEV A POS OR WORST... INCOMPETENT.
I went to WOW ,and the devs there dont even respond.They think, react without even taking your opinion in balance in account.
All in all i really am sad because off the hurricane and the drake but i will adapt ...
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Mallakk
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Posted - 2006.11.19 13:57:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Pesadel0 BUT NOTHING GIVES YOU/ME GUYS THE RIGTH TO CALL HIM OR OTHER DEV A POS OR WORST... INCOMPETENT.
QFT, people like this make me sick. Go make your own game if you think people are not competent enough to please you.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:06:00 -
[172]
Myrm has some drone space to counter the missing dmg-bonus and most players of this community agreed that Myrm needs a bit more drone space.
It is pretty easy to understand what the different races expected about their tier2 BC:
Amarr - Mini Geddon: currently it is Gallente - Mini Dominix: it still needs a bit more drone space Minmatar - Mini AC Tempest: they got it Caldari - Mini Raven: well we received a bigger Caracal :/
And about one of the last comments. It is right, when a big part of the community is unsatisfied with some certain things the Developers of a game should react in a positive way and not with words like Tuxford placed here in the forums.
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Albrecht Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:08:00 -
[173]
Im going to brief. I dont like being an A hole about this, but the bottom line is this. We pay their salary so I would think that it would be a good idea for us to have some sort of a say in what goes on in this game. First I want to point out, that I see the posibility of this argument getting blown way out of porportion, but its the truth. However many people abuse this aspect by not having constructive critisism, which is what everyone should be doing. If you dont have something constructive to say, dont say anything. But dont be surprised when people suggest this or that, and the exact opposite happens or is repeatedly ignored. People get a litle "miffed." As I have said in other posts. I love this game, and I want to see it succeed, but I think that this is a wakeup call and a warning sign that unless this process gets a major overhaul in the near future, something catostrophic and undo-able will happen that will alienate a very large portion of the player base. ------------------------------------- Join "TKI-net"/"Directivenet" for more information |
Votac
Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:18:00 -
[174]
Now I haven't been able to get on the test server, the program won't open but when i heard about the drake i was quite excited.
Finally rather than going straight from cruiser to bs there would be a ship imbetween i could choose for pvp like other races. I often see gallente players bring along a bc to pvp but not caldari, becuase the ferox is pretty useless. its too slow for cruisers groups and nowhere near as good as a bs.
Here was a caldari ship which would be close range making it fun for gate camps, as those missiles would actually hit, and it had enough of a tank that being called primary wouldn't be instant death.
There was a mistake in the damage of the missiles so every race instantly whined becuase the drake was gonna be overpowered if the mistake was true but it wasn't. People didn't stop whining though becuase the drake had seemed overpowered so everyone still thought it was. If looked at it seemed pretty equal with the rest of the races, people didn't like the fact it had both ROF and shield bonus. Thing is its close range and caldari, so on a gate camp when people can't hit bs's your bc will be primary and that shield tank would manage to keep you alive, the ROF is what made it worth taking instead of a cruiser or recon ship.
And now its been nerfed, it can do missions i suppose but probably doesn't have range or speed to make it as good as the ferox. The ferox was pretty terrible and the drake made it not terribly useful, but make the useless ship better not the ok ship bad. besides the drake is a close range ship while ferox can hit long range which is useful in deadspace.
Everyone just assumes that the caldari is so much better than every other race but its not true, infact lots of minnimatar pilots in my corp say that minnimatar is a good race with very high skills (ie if you have high skills minnimatar is best) People just assume that becuase caldari are getting a decent ship and the gallente ship isn't wtfpwning it it must be over powered. If anything I think gallente are overpowered, (even if i think minnimatar are best it takes lots of skills so the effort should be rewarded)
Basically i'm saying that now i won't be using the drake which is a shame cuase i was looking foward to useing it in pvp.
V
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ragewind
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:37:00 -
[175]
yeah come on we now have a 40mil caracal FFS 1 launcher isnt worth the 33mil more simpel.
and as for the devs they have made new ship all inline with the other raceial tiers and now they seem to think missiles ship with resistance bonus is normal WTF were did that come with?
someone was lazy copyed the ferox and couldent be arsed to change it to a normal missile bonus so ROF flight time ect.
and yes were *****ing we pay the wages and its also just basic T1 tire continuity its eather a gank ship or a tank currently you have it as both this is just silly and what makes it insanly overpowered.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:47:00 -
[176]
Edited by: The Armin on 19/11/2006 14:49:15 Let's summarize this thread
Caldari Pilot 1 to 2&3: Looky looky we got a pwnmobile t1 bc Pilot 2 to 1&3: omg its better than the nighthawk !!!1111 3 to 2&1: yea , this is the ****zle, and we get heavy assault missiles too omg:D:D
*Nerfs it*
Pilot 1 goes whine on the forum: WTF IT WAS PERFECTLY FINE !!!!! NERF TUX !!! Better than nighthawk !?!?? Just boost the nighthawk then you suck etc etc whine more..
Pilot 2 goes whine on the forum: This ship SUCKS now. KIN dmg instead of ROF ?!, we're Caldari« why nerf our iWinÖ button ?!?!? Where's the luvv ??? NERF TUX !!1:@!!1
Pilot 3 goes whine on the forum: This ship gonna suck for pvp cause who takes missiles to pvp no we needed a rail bc like the moa and eagle.
Tuxford did right in yelling at certain people in this thread, and no, that doesn't justify you people comming with insults. I think Tux do a good job. Even though Amarr still sucks. End.
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Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:49:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Ever tried shooting at something with 5 medium railguns and no damage bonus?
Heh, let me introduce you to a little friend of mine- the Myrmidon..........
LOL, that was the most crappy example ever. The myrmidon starts with close to 350-400 dps over the ferox because of the 4 heavy drones it can deploy, so give the ferox the same, and it would be comparable.
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 14:54:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I can see the yellow stuff all around this post but I cant bring myself to believe a Dev posted it...
Did you 6 year old brother/neigbour/friend take a hold of your loggins or what???? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Aequitas Veritas
TAOSP Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:03:00 -
[179]
Im all with Raynor on this subject. Im just glad I picked up two NH's at 70 mio each a long time ago hoping it would get a ROF bonus :)
This ship should get a missile velocity and rof bonus and keep its 6 launchers...
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin |
Adeptus Malkavius
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:07:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Crellion I can see the yellow stuff all around this post but I cant bring myself to believe a Dev posted it...
Did you 6 year old brother/neigbour/friend take a hold of your loggins or what????
I'm with you on this...
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:14:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I can see the yellow stuff all around this post but I cant bring myself to believe a Dev posted it...
Did you 6 year old brother/neigbour/friend take a hold of your loggins or what????
You don't seem to realise all the crap Tuxford got spoonfed by the community because of the changes to the Hurricane and Drake changes. I think Tux' reaction is perfectly understandable. After all he is not the only one making the changes, there is a whole team discussing game balance/making changes, except that Tuxford gets the thankless job of posting/discussing it with the community at large. How would you feel when you keep getting insulted and called a moron that shouldn't even touch a computer with a 20 foot pole?! And you know what? Now people are whining/insulting him because he got annoyed at them... And even more? If he hadn't responded, what would have happened is that people would whine he doesn't care or that they don't tell us what they are doing to the game... If anyone would act like some members of this forum have against tux face to face to me, I would likely punch em in the face . And I don't get angry easily .
RK Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Altehea
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:26:00 -
[182]
I'm sorry to see Tuxford getting slapped so hard, he's doing his best according to the instructions he gets from his senior developpers, but still, he messed up with the Drake and either the 7th launcher or the RoF bonus must come back.
Caldari deserve a gank ship. Big time and long time. It doesn't matter, honestly, if it's the Drake or if another ship gets modified like a full turrets Ferox or Eagle or you name it, be it missile or turret ship (since minmatarr and caldari are in the same boat when it comes to skill trainings unlike amarr and gallente who have it easy, but... nm...)
I think what brought the 'incompetent' comments is that the Drake came to Sisi like it was in the first place. If the ship was so overpowered that it had to be nerfed so hard, one can ask why it came out of the drawing board in that state? That's simply unbelievable.
Arguing about the usefulness of a kinetic bonus (it hurts just writing it ) or tankability or whatever will lead us nowhere.
Caldari want a gank ship. Let me rephraze that: Caldari want a ship with top notch DPS. They don't give a **** about tanking or turrets/missile or anything, just a ship that deals sheer damage. ATM they have to fly another race to get a high DPS ship and that is just plain wrong (let's not derail this in yet another Raven hate/love thread, shall we?).
So guys, give Tux a break, he has to deal with us as we have to deal with him, let's just work together so Caldari get the 'missing link' they've been looking for for so long.
Sit back, take a breath, have a wan... er walk and let's everybody have fun in this great game. Peace.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:27:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I can see the yellow stuff all around this post but I cant bring myself to believe a Dev posted it...
Did you 6 year old brother/neigbour/friend take a hold of your loggins or what????
You don't seem to realise all the crap Tuxford got spoonfed by the community because of the changes to the Hurricane and Drake.
That should make no difference. He's in a job that he knows is going to make unpopular choices, and he is a representative of a company for which we are all paying customers. There's really no excuse for him taking a tone that would get warning from mods if posted by anyone else. And it would have been JUST as easy to post the same sentiment (ship is fine) without all the insults. ---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them. |
The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.19 15:40:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Altehea when it comes to skill trainings unlike amarr and gallente who have it easy, but... nm...)
I stopped reading here. wts: clue.
Oh and you have gankships. Your new railtoy can outperform any other turret based ship, and Cerberus still rocks. Crow and Raven is still EvE on easy mode.
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Statics
A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:15:00 -
[185]
Originally by: The Armin
Originally by: Altehea when it comes to skill trainings unlike amarr and gallente who have it easy, but... nm...)
I stopped reading here. wts: clue.
Oh and you have gankships. Your new railtoy can outperform any other turret based ship, and Cerberus still rocks. Crow and Raven is still EvE on easy mode.
Maybe he should have said we want an AFFORDABLE ship that can DPS. ----------
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:17:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I can see the yellow stuff all around this post but I cant bring myself to believe a Dev posted it...
Did you 6 year old brother/neigbour/friend take a hold of your loggins or what????
You don't seem to realise all the crap Tuxford got spoonfed by the community because of the changes to the Hurricane and Drake changes. I think Tux' reaction is perfectly understandable. After all he is not the only one making the changes, there is a whole team discussing game balance/making changes, except that Tuxford gets the thankless job of posting/discussing it with the community at large. How would you feel when you keep getting insulted and called a moron that shouldn't even touch a computer with a 20 foot pole?! And you know what? Now people are whining/insulting him because he got annoyed at them... And even more? If he hadn't responded, what would have happened is that people would whine he doesn't care or that they don't tell us what they are doing to the game... If anyone would act like some members of this forum have against tux face to face to me, I would likely punch em in the face . And I don't get angry easily .
RK
I have no problem with you trying to explain it away but I remember a time when a dev would only break his silence (Tomb or Oveur usually) to make an announcement that showed 10 hours of thought per word and we would be like: "ohhhhhhhh!" and it would make sense to all the waring forum factions at the same time in a magical sense...
Tuxford in comparison came in with a lot of ideas and willingness to help. He announced the solution to many problems that were going on for a long time and we all applauded him. I think he got hooked on the accolades.
He started changing anything anybody would complain about. Then changing anything that was effected by that. Than nerfing his buffs and buffing his nerfs... The whole thing IMO has spiralled out of control to the point that now CCP changes 10 things a day in preparation of Kali hitting TQ and as one would expect thats just too many changes for them to be well thought out and properly tested and balanced.
I believe from what I have seen that he is now overworked and overstressed and at breaking point. I also believe that with the increasing volume of work he is now just changing things in an almost sloppy manner, as others have suggested... For example basing changes on mere DPS comparisons or tanking graphs etc. No change, no matter how small should EVER be made without looking at all the issues in the round and in depth.
Drake was nerfed because on Sisi (where speed an agility and tackling mods and hit and run have 5% of the value they have on TQ; and where tank and gank is everything) it was uber. When it hits TQ it will be a joke like the Ferox for pvp.
The post Tux made shows I think that he realises the mistake but just cant possibly deal with putting more time in correcting a "balancing change" he just implemented. The post he made as a professional stand to no scrutiny whatsoever. Blieve me I know exactly how he has been treated by the community but I also knowhow he has let himself down to an extent. I have a lot more sympathy and respect for him than you think but his reply worried me a lot because it confirmed my fears that he has taken on board more than he can possibly deal with IMO. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:21:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 19/11/2006 16:21:42
Originally by: Albrecht Wassenar Im going to brief. I dont like being an A hole about this, but the bottom line is this. We pay their salary so I would think that it would be a good idea for us to have some sort of a say in what goes on in this game. First I want to point out, that I see the posibility of this argument getting blown way out of porportion, but its the truth. However many people abuse this aspect by not having constructive critisism, which is what everyone should be doing. If you dont have something constructive to say, dont say anything. But dont be surprised when people suggest this or that, and the exact opposite happens or is repeatedly ignored. People get a litle "miffed." As I have said in other posts. I love this game, and I want to see it succeed, but I think that this is a wakeup call and a warning sign that unless this process gets a major overhaul in the near future, something catostrophic and undo-able will happen that will alienate a very large portion of the player base.
There is a concept called 'Tyranny of the majority'.
It is used as an arguement against 'pure' democracy, where the 'people' decide everything through voting on issues, policies etc.
What you end up with is the lowest common denominator running society, rather than a group of politicans running it for us and deciding whats in our best interests. The same logic applies here.
Most people are stupid, and thats a fact. I don't want EVE to be a democracy, I want an elite and intelligent group of Developers to shape the game, not the majority of tards who play it. Just because you pay doesnt give you a right to change the game to suit you. If you don't like it, stop playing - thats the only choice you are 'entitled' to.
No-one is forcing that money out your account.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:55:00 -
[188]
Well, we don't want to decide over everything, but to be honest. There are enough Caldari players who could experience for long enough how crappy kinetic missile bonus is. Adding RoF and flight time like on a Raven wouldn't make the Drake an obverpowered BattleCruiser. It would just give it the possibility to compete in PvP and if you take a look on other Battlecruisers like for example the Harbinger you might find out that it has a bonus similar to the Armageddon.
Just check out average DPS of the new BattleCruisers and you will currently mention that the Drake is pre-nerf the absolute looser.
I can just again ask Tuxford to reconsider the Drake boni. Currently they wrecked the ship and this is a fact every Caldari who ever flew a Caracal in PvP can confirm.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:59:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 19/11/2006 17:01:11
Originally by: Asariasha Well, we don't want to decide over everything, but to be honest. There are enough Caldari players who could experience for long enough how crappy kinetic missile bonus is. Adding RoF and flight time like on a Raven wouldn't make the Drake an obverpowered BattleCruiser. It would just give it the possibility to compete in PvP and if you take a look on other Battlecruisers like for example the Harbinger you might find out that it has a bonus similar to the Armageddon.
Just check out average DPS of the new BattleCruisers and you will currently mention that the Drake is pre-nerf the absolute looser.
I can just again ask Tuxford to reconsider the Drake boni. Currently they wrecked the ship and this is a fact every Caldari who ever flew a Caracal in PvP can confirm.
Get a ******* clue. You can deal any damage type. You don't have to worry about tracking. You don't use cap to fire. You don't even have to use cap to tank.
Kinetic is also an excellent damage type to use. As good as Thermal, much better than EM. And even if it isnt, you can change to whatever damage type you wish, meaning your TRUE DPS is much much higher than someone limited to two damage types.
True DPS means: if you are fighting an armor tanker, you use explosive. If you are fighting a shield tanker, you can use EM. You can pick and choose to get maximum damage. Don't you realise what a massive advantage that is in PvP? Probably not, because Caldari is the lazy PvE race.
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Darkenral
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Posted - 2006.11.19 17:30:00 -
[190]
I'd love to see all the people that say the Drake is a great ship post nerf actually flying 1 post Kali. O wait a minute we wont, but then again almost nobody will be flying it.
As for Tux's response. Well I had some cutting humor lined up but I'll just let the response speak for itself.
Dark
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Catga Coltrain
Gallente New Dawn Rising The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.11.19 17:56:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Catga Coltrain on 19/11/2006 17:57:25 Butter Dog Wins this thread!
I couldn't have put it better...
Whiners are just plain stupid. You canÆt reasonably claim to understand all the variables in EVE combat balancing! You just canÆt! There are way too many variables involved!
Go ahead try and argue damage type, amount of damage, speed, number of other ships, type of other ships, skill of other ships pilots, ship setups (remember cookie cutter setups are for idiots, real eve players fit their ships to adapt with their gang), money spent on setup, etc. etc. etc.
Now look at what you idiotic whiners do every time you start a stupid whine thread. You pick a random variable and you say ôWah Wah! ItÆs not the best for this situation!ö or even better ôwah wah! I pay CCP for them to make the game the way I want it! And I want a cheap gank ship!ö
You pay for the service of being allowed to play the game on CCPÆs server and for the free expansions that come with the game (regardless of the content!)
If you want to help a ship in testing then go out and test it in a controlled and random environment! Then DONÆT draw conclusions on the whole ship! Instead post your data and ask others to run other tests and share the highlights of the ship. Never compare one ship to another and say (Wah! ItÆs just a Carcal with 1 more launcher!) Because once again the sheer amount of variables involved will automatically render that argument USELESSS!!
IÆm glad Butter Dog said it for meà the majority of mankind consists of a bunch of close minded idiots!
Luckily the devs are very intelligent and well educated peopleà
O I almost forgot! Those of you questioning TuxÆs reaction need to realize that he was just trying to communicate with his target audience (you know kind of like and adult trying to explain something to a child)! In this case he failed because the audience was even dumber then he thought ROFL (like he said he has no time to waste on babysitting idiots)!
Keep up the good work Tux! Real EVE players will always respect you!
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire |
Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:17:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Catga Coltrain Edited by: Catga Coltrain on 19/11/2006 17:57:25 mindless drivel
See Tux? Thats the kind of person that you are currently making happy.
I rest my case. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:21:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Catga Coltrain Edited by: Catga Coltrain on 19/11/2006 17:57:25 mindless drivel
See Tux? Thats the kind of person that you are currently making happy.
I rest my case.
pwned
ohh and /signed
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:33:00 -
[194]
So much ass-aplynism at one topic .. nice.
Insted of fighting who is bigger idiot you should stay focused on real problems.
and real problem is HAM atm... but no one is interested and everyone is busy spitting mud on others.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:54:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Albrecht Wassenar Im going to brief. I dont like being an A hole about this, but the bottom line is this. We pay their salary so I would think that it would be a good idea for us to have some sort of a say in what goes on in this game.
Players ruin MMOs when they're given what they want. It's a simple fact of these games that VERY few people are unbiased.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:58:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Altehea
Caldari deserve a gank ship. Big time and long time.
No you don't. Caldari don't EVER deserve a gank ship. Why? Because your weapons always hit, even your supposedly short range HAMs can hit out to 101km, you can use any damage type and you never use any cap. Just load in some precisions if you're being troubled by an interceptor or other frig or cruiser...
No. Missiles are too versatile to ever be uber DPS.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:19:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 19/11/2006 19:20:08
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
I can see the yellow stuff all around this post but I cant bring myself to believe a Dev posted it...
Did you 6 year old brother/neigbour/friend take a hold of your loggins or what????
You don't seem to realise all the crap Tuxford got spoonfed by the community because of the changes to the Hurricane and Drake.
That should make no difference. He's in a job that he knows is going to make unpopular choices, and he is a representative of a company for which we are all paying customers. There's really no excuse for him taking a tone that would get warning from mods if posted by anyone else. And it would have been JUST as easy to post the same sentiment (ship is fine) without all the insults.
His job is game designer, not get pelted with poo. That's what community managers are for . Him responding to threads about game balance is not a requirement for his job, he does it anyway. After the n(+infinity)th time reading that I suck and have negative IQ I would get a bit angry too. Yet you expect him to set aside his emotions(and ignore direct personal insults) because he just happens to work for a company? Noone, and I do mean noone is capable of ignoring personal insults, not even the people doing the insulting(why insult someone if you can't take it yourself?) apparently, judging from the reaction to what Tux said from some of them. In the end, was Tuxford out of line? Yes, he was. Were the ones flinging poo out of line? Yes they were. Would Tuxford appoligize if he knew they would accept it and not just insult him some more(you know this has a good chance of happening if he did), I believe he would. Would the ones that caused this outburst, unlikely they would find some excuse or just continue their whining without any form of an apology. *fixed some words* Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:20:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Altehea
Caldari deserve a gank ship. Big time and long time.
No you don't. Caldari don't EVER deserve a gank ship. Why? Because your weapons always hit, even your supposedly short range HAMs can hit out to 101km, you can use any damage type and you never use any cap. Just load in some precisions if you're being troubled by an interceptor or other frig or cruiser...
No. Missiles are too versatile to ever be uber DPS.
Maybe its time to make real missiles from them, for example minimal range, contermeasures for small ships, CIWS for big ships ..
BTW you still own me explanation where did you get 138% bonus to javelin missile dmg..
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Lucian Corvinus
Gallente Expert Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:35:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 19/11/2006 19:40:06
Originally by: Aki Yamato
Maybe its time to make real missiles from them, for example minimal range, contermeasures for small ships, CIWS for big ships ..
BTW you still own me explanation where did you get 138% bonus to javelin missile dmg..
So you are saying that they should remove explosion velocity and explosion radius from missiles since there is no such thing in the real world, so back to destroying frigs, inties and cruisers with a couple of torps... hmm sounds good to me.
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Goca
Minmatar Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:52:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Interesting a dev, telling the players, at least the one's who think his ideas are bull**** and players who REGULARLY, DAILY play this game, that his ****** up ideas are the players fault..
I am interested to know what other company could tell it's customers that they suck and actually have any customers afterwards?
Sorry bub but the old mantra that the customers are always right holds true for every company, if you desire to keep said company in business.
If you don't want customers keep it up, at least you won't have to worry about people *****ing at you on the forums, cause there won't be anyone left cept the fanbois...
ie grow up.. I is Goca |
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:59:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Aki Yamato BTW you still own me explanation where did you get 138% bonus to javelin missile dmg..
It was my mistake. I thought I had 3 shield extender rigs fitted when instead I had only 2 and then 1 warhead calefaction rig. I wondered why I only had 25,000 shields when I was used to having 30,000 on that ship.
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Aki Yamato
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:28:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 19/11/2006 19:40:06
Originally by: Aki Yamato
Maybe its time to make real missiles from them, for example minimal range, contermeasures for small ships, CIWS for big ships ..
BTW you still own me explanation where did you get 138% bonus to javelin missile dmg..
So you are saying that they should remove explosion velocity and explosion radius from missiles since there is no such thing in the real world, so back to destroying frigs, inties and cruisers with a couple of torps... hmm sounds good to me.
Buut there is explosion radius and speed in real , its just implemented bit different way thai in eve :)
Why should huge missile designed to interept large vesels like BB should hit small fat movin frig or interceptor ? especially when this decoy launchers are used to shake missiles away.
And yea missile with size of PET bottle is bit redicolous, up to me ill rise volume of current missiles at least 10 times.
BIG GUN BIG FUTURE |
Wintermoon
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:32:00 -
[203]
Give the drake the same bonus as the kestrel
10% kinetic and 5% everything else.
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Catga Coltrain
Gallente New Dawn Rising The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:46:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Catga Coltrain Edited by: Catga Coltrain on 19/11/2006 17:57:25 mindless drivel
See Tux? Thats the kind of person that you are currently making happy.
I rest my case.
pwned
ohh and /signed
ROFL thx for proving my point! Really I wasnÆt expecting to catch two idiots so fast! I love the part where you used evidence, logic, and reason to convince me of your point of view.
So what do you hope to achieve by insulting me and the developers? How does that convince anyone? Better yet how does that HELP anyone?
Really I donÆt know what else to sayà I pity you? By posting such idiotic responses both of you just agreed to my post! Why? Notice how I never said just who the idiots where; by responding directly to my post IÆm guessing you feel insulted by my ambiguous classification? Or you subconsciously already know youÆre an idiot and you just responded by impulse? Really all of these traps where set to insure proper reading of all my posts, you just might end up looking stupid if you donÆt pay attention!
Also Tux already mentioned thisà youÆre asking for a dev to change a ship (thatÆs ok), BUT OMG youÆre doing it in an unreasonable and idiotic manner! Every time someone counters your arguments you idiots donÆt listen to the counters, instead you post something stupid and irrelevant like ôbut wah! Its like a Ferox now!ö and if your thread dies you start a new one (even if the old ones where already settled)! ItÆs a common phenomena observed in stubborn and immature individuals. YouÆre all just like a bunch of 3 year olds that whine for some candy (but you wonÆt get it because youÆre already a fat and spoiled kid) and then tell their parents that they hate them because they didnÆt get what they wanted.
Now both of you already proved to me and the community that you have these maturity and reasoning issues, but I would be more then willing to help you through this problem. Really I can guarantee that your life will be better if you just slow down the impulsive actions and fire up the good old brain!
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."- Voltaire |
Kapitanleutnant Mei
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:25:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Wintermoon Give the drake the same bonus as the kestrel
10% kinetic and 5% everything else.
/signed this would make it a agank ship and reduce the tank while still giving good dps for non-kinetic :D
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:47:00 -
[206]
Well then to rebalance all of the tier2 BC please nerf in the following way:
Harbinger: -1 turret/cap need bonus change to 10% bonus to armor hitpoints per level
Myrmidon: -25% drone space/Drone HP&dmg bonus change to 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret dmg per lvl
If you nerf, nerf all of them to keep fairness to all races.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:02:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Ever tried shooting at something with 5 medium railguns and no damage bonus?
Heh, let me introduce you to a little friend of mine- the Myrmidon..........
...which happens to be a ship with 100m3 dronebay and drone bonuses.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:10:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Butter Dog Get a ******* clue. You can deal any damage type. You don't have to worry about tracking. You don't use cap to fire. You don't even have to use cap to tank.
Kinetic is also an excellent damage type to use. As good as Thermal, much better than EM. And even if it isnt, you can change to whatever damage type you wish, meaning your TRUE DPS is much much higher than someone limited to two damage types.
True DPS means: if you are fighting an armor tanker, you use explosive. If you are fighting a shield tanker, you can use EM. You can pick and choose to get maximum damage. Don't you realise what a massive advantage that is in PvP? Probably not, because Caldari is the lazy PvE race.
Yes, because we all know that 500DPS raven, firing exp missiles, hitting a 70% resistance, is going to bve soooo much more effective than the geddon with megapulses and 2x the DPS, hitting the 80% em/therm...
Now if the person make a tank with a giant hole, that's another story, but how many people actually go into PVP without resists being as good as possible overall?
We don't worry about tracking, but we can never do full damage to smaller targets. If you park a frigate 50km from a railathron, you're going pop in a shot, maybe two. My torps won't be quite so lucky. Plus your tackler buddies can dive straight as a missile boat, whereas doing the same thing to a turret ship sends them home in a pod or new clone.
Bering able to hit a weaker resistance that lets you do 20% more DPS doesn't mean much when your base DPS are 60% of everyone else.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:37:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Asariasha Well then to rebalance all of the tier2 BC please nerf in the following way:
Harbinger: -1 turret/cap need bonus change to 10% bonus to armor hitpoints per level
Myrmidon: -25% drone space/Drone HP&dmg bonus change to 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret dmg per lvl
If you nerf, nerf all of them to keep fairness to all races.
Heh, since when does balance mean you nerf the weak ships along with the strong? Stop being silly.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:49:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Asariasha on 19/11/2006 23:51:09 Well Risien, now you might have gotten a clue on what kinetic bonus means to Caldari missile boats and what Caldari players thought about the too harsh nerf.
This discussion has already gone too far, but I can only repeat again what I already mentioned:
Gallente got a small Dominix Minmatar got a small Tempest Amarr got a small Armageddon Caldari got a big Caracal
I mean hey, is it that hard to understand this obvious balancing issue? So, if even one doesn't get the appropriate boni, none of these Battlecruisers should get a bonus-layout you use to find on Battleships so they can't be used in a manner BS are used in PvP.
Thats easy to understand, thats fair to all and so we may all cry for our toys
PS.: And btw...Myrmidon and Harbinger ARE NOT weak. For example NOS Myrmidons kick as and can tank like hell..just for you concerned Gallentean bunny ;)
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:58:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Asariasha Edited by: Asariasha on 19/11/2006 23:51:09 Well Risien, now you might have gotten a clue on what kinetic bonus means to Caldari missile boats and what Caldari players thought about the too harsh nerf.
This discussion has already gone too far, but I can only repeat again what I already mentioned:
Gallente got a small Dominix Minmatar got a small Tempest Amarr got a small Armageddon Caldari got a big Caracal
I mean hey, is it that hard to understand this obvious balancing issue? So, if even one doesn't get the appropriate boni, none of these Battlecruisers should get a bonus-layout you use to find on Battleships so they can't be used in a manner BS are used in PvP.
Thats easy to understand, thats fair to all and so we may all cry for our toys
PS.: And btw...Myrmidon and Harbinger ARE NOT weak. For example NOS Myrmidons kick as and can tank like hell..just for you concerned Gallentean bunny ;)
Nice try but the myrmidon doesn't feel like a dominix at all. It feels like a slightly bigger vexor. And kinetic dmg is fine.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:10:00 -
[212]
Yeah right, the Myrmidon can tank a lot better than a Dominix, but doesn't get 5%turret dmg bonus. But who cares about turrets if you can NOS out every ships cap so it isnt able to tank and will over the time be punched by drones.
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Meryth
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:38:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Meryth on 20/11/2006 00:46:57
nm
But, anyways, the Caldari hatred on these threads are pathetic. I can't remember Caldari whining that way when the (already overpowered) Thorax was boost-nerfed, or the Deimos, or when amarr battleships were sending Ravens into oblivion for monthes before the pulse nerf and missile overhaul.
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Altehea
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:42:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Altehea
Caldari deserve a gank ship. Big time and long time.
No you don't. Caldari don't EVER deserve a gank ship. Why? Because your weapons always hit, even your supposedly short range HAMs can hit out to 101km, you can use any damage type and you never use any cap. Just load in some precisions if you're being troubled by an interceptor or other frig or cruiser...
No. Missiles are too versatile to ever be uber DPS.
Reading comprehension 4tw I wrote 'it doesn't matter if it's a rail of missile platform'. Your comments about the nberness of missiles are lolastic, but see... Caldari turret ships are lolastic too, so just laugh together here
Originally by: The Armin
Originally by: Altehea when it comes to skill trainings unlike amarr and gallente who have it easy, but... nm...)
I stopped reading here. wts: clue.
It's still the truth, my gallentean character doesn't have to bother with missiles (maybe for the Ares? ) while the Caldari one has all missiles specs, hybrids and blasters spec up to large and drones spec up to Carrier class, with both shield tanking trained high and armor tanking (for when armor tanking + EW was viable). What was your point again?
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:57:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Altehea
What was your point again?
Pft Caldari wajners, dont come here tell me that Amarr is easy cause Tux pwnd you.
Try fly any Amarr ship without the lvl5 in the appropriate shipclass. (This goes for T2 too). . Then if you still think it's easy, I'll bow in the dust for you.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:14:00 -
[216]
Dont tell me that Amarr is easy because Tux didnt pwn you, yet. Try to fly a Caldari ship without lvl5 in the appropriate shipclass. (this goes for T2 too). . Then if you are able to kill somone in pvp with a kinetic bonus missile ship, I'll bow in dust for you.
Funny, isnt it?
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:40:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Asariasha Yeah right, the Myrmidon can tank a lot better than a Dominix, but doesn't get 5%turret dmg bonus. But who cares about turrets if you can NOS out every ships cap so it isnt able to tank and will over the time be punched by drones.
Tank a lot better than the dominix? Now you're just being silly.
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:17:00 -
[218]
Edited by: The Armin on 20/11/2006 02:25:27
Originally by: Asariasha Dont tell me that Amarr is easy because Tux didnt pwn you, yet. Try to fly a Caldari ship without lvl5 in the appropriate shipclass. (this goes for T2 too). . Then if you are able to kill somone in pvp with a kinetic bonus missile ship, I'll bow in dust for you.
Funny, isnt it?
You don't like the Drake, fine don't fly it. I don't like the Apoc, and I don't fly it regulary. I don't like the Prophecy either, and I dont fly that one at all. Try to pwn someone with a 10% cap size / lvl. I'll bow again. Think I'll fly the new BS? Neah..
Let's not turn this thread into wich race is worst Amarr vs Caldari cause y'all know thats the only prize Amarr can win. (; She was sayin' Amarr is easy, wich is a lie.
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:28:00 -
[219]
Children please behave,
While the poor drake deserves at least the 1 launcher or the rof bonus back, dont take it out on the Myrmidon the only tier 2 BC that came prenerfed.
Hopefully these things will get fixed somewhere down the road... In any event the reports I get from those testing extensively on Sisi are lolastic. For example 1v1 BS just doesnt work near gate or stations... if you see your cap dieng you deagress and dock or jump etc...
As someone said in the "dont take it out on Tux" thread, Drake was gank nerfed, instead of tank nerfed, because those higher up (than Tux) are intent on the whole "prolongue battle" conceipt.
Personally I expect this silliness to blow up in their faces... By Christmas (assuming Kali1 goes ahead on timeTM) people will have realised this is really bad for solo combat and its good only for bloberganking turds and hopefully many voices in unison will be crying out. Hopefully Drake will then be one of the first ships to be unnerfed.
After all... Caldari ships are so decisevily classed as poor damage dealers in EvE that even their turret ships (that do use up a lot of cap for guns and a lot more cap for their active shield tanks) are given the lowest DPS (for a bit more range)...
In fact Caldari railships are probably the only ships that are by and large out DPSed by Caldari missleships rofl...
Meh... let it rest. If you want to be able to gank stuff just train Gallente spaceship command skills to put your Hybrid SPs to good use, and if you want to solo pvp playing eve on easy mode train minmattar... You can then slap an ab on your cruiser and fly circles around Caldari AFs with mwd... now THAT is easy mode... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:38:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Goca Edited by: Goca on 19/11/2006 19:55:56
Originally by: Tuxford ......
Sorry bub but the old mantra that the customers are always right holds true for every company, if you desire to keep said company in business.
You certainly don't see Bill Gates telling his complaining customers if you cannot figure out some screwed up thing in Microsoft that it's your own **** fault and you suck... You see them trying to fix the problems, sometimes they achieve this sometimes, they don't, sometimes they still get *****ed at, but they certainly don't call talk down to their customers...
ie grow up..
This hardly applies to a forum discussing balance changes for ships in a space game. Yeah sure, his response might be innappropriate in a retail store, but if customers acted like they do on these forums in such a store, they would be asked to leave and banned from the store if they ignored this. Would you rather that anyone who was rude and impolite to the devs was banned from the forums? Imagine the uproar that would cause...
And the analogy with Microsoft is also a stupid one....you don't big forums at microsoft.com where people discuss the features of the NEXT version of office and people get passionate and complain bitterly about the new feature that will be in Office 2010 which is NOT EVEN RELEASED YET.
Good on Tux for answering the imbecile OP with some truth.
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Rogerano
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Posted - 2006.11.20 04:47:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
Drake Setup Hi: 6x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, 2x Med Diminishing Nosferatu Med: 3x Invulnerability Field II, 1x Large Shield Extender II -- out of grid no room for anything more. Low: 2x Ballistic Control II, 2x Power Diagnostic Unit II
The problem here isn't the ship. It's the setup...
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.11.20 06:09:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Oh look you posted again before mine hit.
Let's see, you posted about...ooh, dual fitting mod setups. Brilliant
Power diagnostic systems on a ferox are standard issue. Have you ever even flown this ship? Or did you just decide one day after trying to fit it with low skills that it sucked and you'd never bother?
No, I've never flown the ship and I don't have all relevant skills maxed out.
Really, I don't
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yay! Brilliant idea! Lets use 4x fitting mods and no damage mods! I wonder what kind of DPS we can get with a pathetic 5 railguns and zero damage mods...
You're not really that good at following a debate, are ya. 4 fitting mods isn't what I would do. I asked for an example of a ship that could fit its biggest guns AND a huge tank. Someone gave me an example with 4 fitting mods so I pointed out that the ferox could do it with 4 fitting mods too. Try to keep up, please.
Note that the fitting you were given has more lowslots, allowing for damage mods, AND a damage bonus built into the ship.
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Anyway, my final verdict on this thread is exactly what I've been saying for months:
BRING BACK TomB!
He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness.
You should just Stfu.
Hmm, what do I have to say to you?
How about... "You should just Stfu."
Wow, that got us really far
Originally by: The Armin stfu pls.
Request DENIED.
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Ever tried shooting at something with 5 medium railguns and no damage bonus?
Heh, let me introduce you to a little friend of mine- the Myrmidon..........
What, that Gallente ship that has all the damage of the Ferox's primary weapons system built into it's secondary weapons system, and THEN there are the drones?
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that.
Originally by: Pesadel0 BUT NOTHING GIVES YOU/ME GUYS THE RIGTH TO CALL HIM OR OTHER DEV A POS OR WORST... INCOMPETENT.
(A) I pay my account subscription fee.
(B) I have somehow NOT been permabanned from the forums yet.
THAT gives me the right to call Tuxford incompetent.
Originally by: Altehea full turrets Ferox or Eagle
OH GODS YES!!! *orgasm*
Originally by: The Armin Your new railtoy can outperform any other turret based ship
HAHAHAHAHA! THAT'S FUNNY, THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY DAY!
Log onto SiSi and try out the Rokh. It's got the right slots, hardpoints, and bonuses (well, it needs another lowslot, but details details...), except that it's "stealth" nerfed by a complete lack of powergrid, CPU, and capacitor. ESPECIALLY capacitor. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 10:34:00 -
[223]
Nikolai Nuvolari, TomB still approves of everything, so bringing back TomB won't work since he never left.
Originally by: Asariasha Yeah right, the Myrmidon can tank a lot better than a Dominix, but doesn't get 5%turret dmg bonus. But who cares about turrets if you can NOS out every ships cap so it isnt able to tank and will over the time be punched by drones.
Medium Armor Repairer II: 26.7 HP/s base. Medium Armor Repairer II, Myrmidon: 33.3 HP/s base with level 5 ship skill. Large Armor Repairer II: 53.3 HP/s base.
The Myrmidon does not tank anywhere near as well as the Dominix. It has a tanking ability somewhere in the region of 33% less effective than that of the Dominix. But wait, there's more, it also has: * Significantly lower hit points * Less than half damage output from turrets * Lower damage output from drones * No backup drones, what so ever. * Half the range on nosferatus. * 40% less effective nosferatus. * Fewer low slots.
The only thing that speaks FOR the Myrmidon is that it has a smaller signature radius and a slightly faster lock time. The second bonus is quite a bit better than the first. In fact, the first bonus is, by large, not noticable at all.
Asariasha, consider your argumentation dead and buried.
Do not ever compare the Dominix and Myrmidon. One is overpriced piece of junk that looks good, the other is a dog-ugly jewel.
P.S. someone said "nerf fairly and nerf all of them". Why nerf the Myrmidon? It came pre-nerfed. - EVE is sick. |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:02:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Asariasha on 20/11/2006 11:09:32 Edited by: Asariasha on 20/11/2006 11:04:27 I really begin to love how Gallentean players now begin to state arguments why it shouldn't be nerfed...reminds me of us Caldari trying to get RoF instead of kinetic bonus
Well, for sure the Myrmidon can not tank as well as a Dominix, but compared to its ship size it does tank very good. And if you now think about that you can fit blasters and an extreme amount of Drones (while most Gallente guys still ask for more dronespace to launch a set heavies) it will outdamage for example the Drake with ease. So, I see a reason to nerf it. You wanted balance, so we all want balance and have to sacrifice our dreamships.
And to the Amarr...I didnt say that it's easy to fly Amarr ships, but in conclusion it isn't easy to fly Caldari ships in PvP either! I have been flying the Ferox long enough to know that it will be pwned by any ships of it's size. Why do I point to the Ferox? Well, because the Drake is now nothing more than a Ferox. But of course you are now going to tell me that the Ferox is an awesome pvp ship.
@Nicolai: the Rokh has it's strenghts. It will be for example a perfect ship to newer players who are going to train up large hybrids and still can not use tech2. For fleetOPs it will not be that good, because it's only strenght is the range. However, due to Kalis t2 ammo nerf the range for "long range" battles will be decreased nullifying ths range bonus of Rokh and making the older BS the ruler of the battlefields again.
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Aloysius Knight
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:05:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Asariasha Dont tell me that Amarr is easy because Tux didnt pwn you, yet. Try to fly a Caldari ship without lvl5 in the appropriate shipclass. (this goes for T2 too). . Then if you are able to kill somone in pvp with a kinetic bonus missile ship, I'll bow in dust for you.
Funny, isnt it?
try flying a typhoon
ps nanophoon is not a real setup k? http://www.stevie.prince.dsl.pipex.com/AloysiusKnight.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2107/nodecrashsiggb9.jpg Chose one, you must. Two is the way of pure ebilness, and pure ebilness is bad -ReverendM |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:14:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Asariasha Edited by: Asariasha on 20/11/2006 11:04:27 I really begin to love how Gallentean players now begin to state arguments why it shouldn't be nerfed...reminds me of us Caldari trying to get RoF instead of kinetic bonus
Well, for sure the Myrmidon can not tank as well as a Dominix, but compared to its ship size it does tank very good. And if you now think about that you can fit blasters and an extreme amount of Drones (while most Gallente guys still ask for more dronespace to launch a set heavies) it will outdamage for example the Drake with ease. So, I see a reason to nerf it. You wanted balance, so we all want balance and have to sacrifice our dreamships.
And to the Amarr...I didnt say that it's easy to fly Amarr ships, but in conclusion it isn't easy to fly Caldari ships in PvP either! I have been flying the Ferox long enough to know that it will be pwned by any ships of it's size. Why do I point to the Ferox? Well, because the Drake is now nothing more than a Ferox. But of course you are now going to tell me that the Ferox is an awesome pvp ship.
People keep saying this, but I just don't see it. Compare with Brutix- They both have the same repper bonus. Their Cap is only a couple of hundred points diferent, and the recharge is better on the Brutix. Resistances are the same. Myrmidon does have better hp, but this doesn't make a sustainable tank. Myrmidon has 1 (i think?) extra low slot. Sure it can tank, but it's hardly the tanking monster people are making it out to be.
And blasters on the Mymridon? Are you mad? Being a (low speed) active tank setup, theres not a chance in hell you'd see people fitting un-bonused Hybrids on it. If you ever see turrets on one, it'll be yet another projectile boat.
And extreme amount of drones? I can either have 4 heavies with no spares, to get damage somewhat equivalent to the Drake, or I can fit 5 mediums plus 5 spares and take away identical DPS as the Vexor (which can fly 5 heavies and 2 spares).
I'm not ging to argue for it to be buffed, seeing as this is a Ferox / Drake thread, but nerfing it would be a crue joke. Pre-nerf, it was the weakest of the 4 BCs, and I'm not convinced much has changed since then. -----------------------------------------------
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.20 11:34:00 -
[227]
Well and if Im now telling that Drake with RoF bonus wouldnt be a dmg-monster as people call it to be (relating to your Myrm not tanking monster annotation)? See, the whole problem just came up by people fitting setups you will never ever see on Tranquility due to the lack of webber, warpjammer, dmg mods,... Another thing is people who complain that Caldari Missiles always hit and you got the free choice of dmg type and so on. Just to compare the strenghts of Missiles vs Turrets go and let a Thorax fight versus a Caracal. You will see how the Thorax is going to kick Caracals ass. And about dmg type you will have to reload for 10seconds which give hostile ships the chance to approach for short range. Exactly the same thing we are going to see after Kali is released. I really really can not understand how you dare to beg for more Dronespace in Myrmidon supported by almost all people in this community and in return don't even try to understand the need for a RoF bonus and more to say kick in the faces of players who assisted you in your wantings. This isnt addressed to all players, but if you maybe check out Risiens postings for example you might understand what frustrates me.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.20 12:14:00 -
[228]
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 20/11/2006 12:18:29
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Hmm, removing a launcher from the Ferox would certainly make things interesting.
Oo, actually, swapping a launcher for a turret slot would be nice on the Ferox. Would certainly reduce overall DPS.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Jin Entres
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.20 12:16:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Jin Entres on 20/11/2006 12:19:28
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Yes, because we all know that 500DPS raven, firing exp missiles, hitting a 70% resistance, is going to bve soooo much more effective than the geddon with megapulses and 2x the DPS, hitting the 80% em/therm...
Now if the person make a tank with a giant hole, that's another story, but how many people actually go into PVP without resists being as good as possible overall?
We don't worry about tracking, but we can never do full damage to smaller targets. If you park a frigate 50km from a railathron, you're going pop in a shot, maybe two. My torps won't be quite so lucky. Plus your tackler buddies can dive straight as a missile boat, whereas doing the same thing to a turret ship sends them home in a pod or new clone.
Bering able to hit a weaker resistance that lets you do 20% more DPS doesn't mean much when your base DPS are 60% of everyone else.
500 * 0.3 = 150 1000 * 0.2 = 200
200/150 * 100 = 33% more damage
No tracking, incredible range on short range weapons, no cap use, great burst damage, spare slots for nos. It evens out pretty well. ---
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Beringe
Caldari Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.11.21 03:10:00 -
[230]
I see a crowd of people who gleefully expected to be handed an overpowered ship blatantly flaming the man who, bravely, did what needed to be done and nerfed it to reasonable levels.
It's still a good ship, especially if you consider how good passive tanks are in Kali.
As for complaining about the kinetic damage bonus...please! Nobody tanks specifically against kinetic. And even if they did, we *still* have the *option* of switching, in order to break specific tanks.
The amount of whining about all the new ships from varying groups of lobbyists who all seem to think that their ships should be best frankly sickens me. ------------------------------------------- "Sarcasm and irony are not to be used by the uninitiated."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.21 03:21:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Beringe I see a crowd of people who gleefully expected to be handed an overpowered ship blatantly flaming the man who, bravely, did what needed to be done and nerfed it to reasonable levels.
The part that *****s me up is all the Caldari whiners saying "we finally had a ship we could PvP with!" Yah, I guess the Caldari are afraid to PvP unless they can fly a ship that can kill 3 of its own class solo.
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Beringe
Caldari Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.11.21 03:31:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Beringe I see a crowd of people who gleefully expected to be handed an overpowered ship blatantly flaming the man who, bravely, did what needed to be done and nerfed it to reasonable levels.
The part that *****s me up is all the Caldari whiners saying "we finally had a ship we could PvP with!" Yah, I guess the Caldari are afraid to PvP unless they can fly a ship that can kill 3 of its own class solo.
It's not just the Caldari, tbh. All the lobbyists are out in force, whining about their favorites. Hurricane, Abbadon, Myrmidon, Hyperion, etc.
And the voice of people who are saying that they think these new ships + models are cool are simply lost in the torrent of crying. ------------------------------------------- "Sarcasm and irony are not to be used by the uninitiated."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:48:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Beringe I see a crowd of people who gleefully expected to be handed an overpowered ship blatantly flaming the man who, bravely, did what needed to be done and nerfed it to reasonable levels.
The part that *****s me up is all the Caldari whiners saying "we finally had a ship we could PvP with!" Yah, I guess the Caldari are afraid to PvP unless they can fly a ship that can kill 3 of its own class solo.
Yes, how dare we ***** when they decide the best way to tone down a gank ship is to remove the gank.
The Drake makes no **** sense now. None of the new BCs really do. They were ment to be gank ships, and now they're just... meh.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Hanns
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.21 05:47:00 -
[234]
lol i never seen tux so ****ed
Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.21 11:34:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Hanns lol i never seen tux so ****ed
Reminds me of this
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Bombcrater
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 11:43:00 -
[236]
I wonder if the thread where Marweas made his legendary post is still available? Some people here could do with reading it, so they know what a real forum firestorm looks like
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ragewind
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:55:00 -
[237]
yep its all the customers fault were all bad pepole were the ones that took the new GANK ship and fited it with a resistance bonus so it can TANK like a *****.
yep we made the GANK and TANK ship we have the power obviously as we are just to godly.
give it back its 7th launcher and its ROF then add missiles velosity and it wont be uber as it wont have the resitances to pasive tank so with an acive its going to need an active which wil uses all the slots on the ship meaning like all caldari ships it needs to be in a gang with others considering all web's scramblers jamers ect ect are mid slot.
yes that will give it a range bonus shock horror caldari are ranged ships, and in close range they get out manovered and betten on speed ever second of the day by close range ships
were as the gallente can fit all that tank and gun/nos combo and trow in good drone coverage they have the overpowered ships in this respect.
and i guess its our fault that a Dev cant be professional and keep his rage and swearing off the forum directed at his paying customers, yeah its all our fault.
so yeah grow up do your job professionally, lissen to the customers when we are all saying its bust as it has 2 roles not 1 ie to gank not gank/tank. retest it change things show us you do somethings not trow a fit gimp the ships dig your heals in and cry
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Majin82
Caldari g guild
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:52:00 -
[238]
Captain Raynor Keep going man, you are correct on this one!
Originally by: ragewind ... so yeah grow up do your job professionally, lissen to the customers when we are all saying its bust as it has 2 roles not 1 ie to gank not gank/tank. retest it change things show us you do somethings not trow a fit gimp the ships dig your heals in and cry
/Agreed
Tuxford.. Grow up, do you even see how unprofessional you are being? Also, next time you want to come up with a new set of Gank ships.. try sticking to that. You have turned all the new BCs into Tankers. The Biggest Whine about the Drake is that it was tanking crazy amounts on Sisi. FIRST OFF, the only way to make it tank like that was to make it nothing but a tanker, it couldn't tackle. People were *****ing and cring because the Drake could tank so much that the Offensive power started to ware down the other ships who couldn't break the tank. What made you think that killing the Offensive bonuses would fix the tank?
All you have done Tuxford is turn a ship that was being used in a way on Sisi, that you would never see be effective on TQ and cut the Drakes balls off. The Drake can still create that super tank.. it just can't do anything else. You should have realized that all you needed to do to break the Drake abuse on Sisi, was take away the resist bonus. You Nerfed the wrong part, man up to the mistake and fix it!
Give the Drake the ROF bonus back and lose the Kinetic Bonus. If you want to keep it at 6 launchers thats fine, we all knew the drake was TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE and expected a Nerf, but not this hard. All we want is 1 missile ship that can PVP.
Don't come on here Tuxford, act like a little ***** and **** in our mouths, if I wan't you to **** in mouth I would ask for it. Kinetic is a crap bonus, the Drake can still abuse the tank that everyone had a problem with. All you have done is cut the Drakes balls right the **** off and given us another Ferox.
No way I am going to buy an overpriced Ferox called the drake. WTG Tux, way to balance the game. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild! |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.22 00:02:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Majin82
Tuxford.. Grow up, do you even see how unprofessional you are being?
.....
Originally by: Majin82 Don't come on here Tuxford, act like a little ***** and **** in our mouths, if I wan't you to **** in mouth I would ask for it. Kinetic is a crap bonus, the Drake can still abuse the tank that everyone had a problem with. All you have done is cut the Drakes balls right the **** off and given us another Ferox.
lol, maybe he was just trying to talk to you on your level?
hurry up! post those whines boys and girls!! only 7 more days till revalations is live!
(and everyone that said they were quitting the game over kali, we are holding you to it )
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Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.11.22 07:54:00 -
[240]
Mmmm I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.
Gotta love how a discussion on the Drake compared to Ferox, turns into a flamewar.
Not to mention it at least initially had one very good point. The Drake from what I've seen/heard of it, will be barely better than the Ferox as a missile boat. And the Ferox isnt much of one to begin with, yet I still fly it on a regular basis for some crazy reason. (Maybe it's just because I'm insane, ask my corp members about my sanity some time)
Initally I was all wooo! A decent battlecruiser! Now it's more just another. Oh.. well thats kinda dissapointing. But what ever.
But ultimately what was a reasonably on track discussion if you can call it that of Drake compared to Ferox and if either were really any good at all, has just turned into one huge flamewar with people insulting each other.
So I ask of you all, could we perhaps please just get this back on track? Otherwise what will we see next? Something perhaps akin to the following.
Poster1: Post about Drake vs Ferox Poster2: Counter Point Poster1: Counter-Counter point Poster3: Flame Poster1: WTF? FLAME BACK! Poster2: STFU NOOB! *flame flame flame* Poster3: OMG! YOu flamed Kenny! I'm going to pod you, you BA****!! Poster4: Whoa <poster3> just podded my friend ingame for a post on the forums! I'm so going to break his legs IRL cause he's this kid that lives up the street from me! Moderators: This thread is now locked, a police investigation is underway, those who have posted here are now being hauled in by the FBI due to the slew of multiple RL murders this thread has caused.
Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
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Beringe
Caldari Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.11.22 08:51:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Majin82 Captain Raynor Keep going man, you are correct on this one!
"Captain" Raynor can be trusted to do just one thing: hold up the torch for his favorite ships.
Caldari whining? He wrote the book. ------------------------------------------- "Sarcasm and irony are not to be used by the uninitiated."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:02:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
The Drake makes no **** sense now. None of the new BCs really do. They were ment to be gank ships, and now they're just... meh.
Can you point me to a written article that states such a thing... that the new BC's were ment to be gank ships?
Thanks.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Romulan Dominiae
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:18:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
The Drake makes no **** sense now. None of the new BCs really do. They were ment to be gank ships, and now they're just... meh.
Can you point me to a written article that states such a thing... that the new BC's were ment to be gank ships?
Thanks.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=361
Quote:
What other stuff have I been working on
Well there is the Tier 2 battlecruisers. I don't really have any solid info on those yet. So far they're favoring damage over tankability which makes them extremely vulnerable to bigger ships due to their big signature radius and sluggish feel, but would make them quite devastating versus smaller ships, like cruisers.
hurricane gets rof and damage bonus, and can also deal all types of damage. as can drones, myrmidon gets 10% damage bonus to all damage types.
i think yesterday or the day before for a short period there was a drake with the rof bonus on sisi, why was ist switched back again? well at least now we have the 99% warfare mod link bonus which nobody needs with more than one bc in a gang.
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Kryssa Fordring
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:48:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Originally by: Tuxford
YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ******* damage type you want.
Just curious, why then does the Kestrel receive a bonus to all damage types:
"Special Ability: 10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level"
Couldn't we at least get something like that on the Drake?
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Verone
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 10:56:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Hanns lol i never seen tux so ****ed
Tbh i don't blame the dev team for being so annoyed, they're working flat out to get kali out and morons just keep coming on the forums whining and ranting and threatening to quit because the new ship that THEY wanted to be great isn't going to be a solo pwnmobile.
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:09:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Romulan Dominiae
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=361
Quote:
What other stuff have I been working on
Well there is the Tier 2 battlecruisers. I don't really have any solid info on those yet. So far they're favoring damage over tankability which makes them extremely vulnerable to bigger ships due to their big signature radius and sluggish feel, but would make them quite devastating versus smaller ships, like cruisers.
It says... "so far". It didnt say "They will be".
The blog was posted on 2006.08.01. Changes were to be expected. Radical changes too.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:11:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Hanns lol i never seen tux so ****ed
Tbh i don't blame the dev team for being so annoyed, they're working flat out to get kali out and morons just keep coming on the forums whining and ranting and threatening to quit because the new ship that THEY wanted to be great isn't going to be a solo pwnmobile.
Completely agree with you.
There are too many ego's here, chestbeating and roaring around.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:18:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Hanns lol i never seen tux so ****ed
Tbh i don't blame the dev team for being so annoyed, they're working flat out to get kali out and morons just keep coming on the forums whining and ranting and threatening to quit because the new ship that THEY wanted to be great isn't going to be a solo pwnmobile.
Yeah a few sad people are crying over the drake.. fair enough imo as it was hit hardest by the nerf bat.
The key point for me in all the noise on this forum is this
The Ferox.. compared to ANY other BC in the game is utter rubbish in PvP... Sure alot of people use them in missions but only because it happend to have to many launcher points and a good tank.
So what did we get with the new ship? The exact same thing with one more launcher point.
It would have saved so much time if they had just added another launcher point to the Ferox and left the caldari with one BC.
If the Drake is going live as it is ... which im sure is the case as Tux has thrown a hissy fit and now wouldnt admit he was wrong even if he was asked to.
The ferox need a fix.. to make it more different from its new carbon copy .. the Drake.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:21:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Kryssa Fordring
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Originally by: Tuxford
YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ******* damage type you want.
Just curious, why then does the Kestrel receive a bonus to all damage types:
"Special Ability: 10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level"
Couldn't we at least get something like that on the Drake?
Kestrel used to have 5% kinetic damage, and 5% RoF. This made launchers fire too fast, and caused lag, so it was changed to 10% kin, and 5% everything else.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:28:00 -
[250]
Lets ignore all chestbeating, name calling etc.
Lets look at the facts. Currently, a Drake has no chance against a Curse, assuming both ships are fitted with HAM's and Shield tank, and a full complement of drones.
Granted the Curse takes longer to train, and when it comes to fitouts, a Drake + t2 Fitout vs Curse + t2 Fitout, the price is pretty much the same, even though the curse is more agile, lower sig etc.
So insted of calling for a nerf of "Tux's Genetals", lets put forward some sensible solutions.
What people have missed is Cost/fitting vs effectivness.
Having 7 launchers on a Drake insted of 6, increases the cost. Not only will it mean that their is an extra launcher needing to be bought, but also ammo. But the real benifit is fitting!
You see, you could have 8 Launchers - but without fitting - you are gimped to hell!. What I say is bring back the old bonus's to the Drake But Lower the amount of CPU/Grid to make sure that these close range ships have a hard time fitting to become solopwnmobiles. Players wanting a tank may even have to go 5 or even 6 launchers due to fitting requirements.
Let the players nerf themselves! --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
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Verone
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:29:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Xaildaine
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Hanns lol i never seen tux so ****ed
Tbh i don't blame the dev team for being so annoyed, they're working flat out to get kali out and morons just keep coming on the forums whining and ranting and threatening to quit because the new ship that THEY wanted to be great isn't going to be a solo pwnmobile.
Yeah a few sad people are crying over the drake.. fair enough imo as it was hit hardest by the nerf bat.
The key point for me in all the noise on this forum is this
The Ferox.. compared to ANY other BC in the game is utter rubbish in PvP... Sure alot of people use them in missions but only because it happend to have to many launcher points and a good tank.
So what did we get with the new ship? The exact same thing with one more launcher point.
It would have saved so much time if they had just added another launcher point to the Ferox and left the caldari with one BC.
If the Drake is going live as it is ... which im sure is the case as Tux has thrown a hissy fit and now wouldnt admit he was wrong even if he was asked to.
The ferox need a fix.. to make it more different from its new carbon copy .. the Drake.
I'm not even going to get dragged into the childish whining and discussions about nerfing and boosting on this forum, to be honest.
I'll do what any senisble adult will do, have a mess about with the ships on SiSi, and recognise they're still in the balancing stages and are being tweaked.
I'll also realise that in Eve CCP play god. What happens to the ships is their descision when it boils down to making them ready to go live on TQ, not ours.
CCP are the creators of Eve, ultimately, they decide which path it follows. A ship doesn't "need" this or "require" that just because a player, or any number of players feel it does.
Personally, I'll retain my dignity and not whine like a spoiled child on the forums when a ship I've anticipated turns out not to be a solo pwnmobile.
Most of us acutally want a CHALLENGE when we fight, not to press F1-F8 and say "lol pwnt".
I'll retain my dignity and wait for the ships to hit Tranquility, and play with them then.
Myself, and a thousand other players will do what every sucessful species on earth has done for the last few billion years, look at our environment, and adapt to suit it so we don't end up dead or obsolete.
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Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:50:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Verone
I'm not even going to get dragged into the childish whining and discussions about nerfing and boosting on this forum, to be honest.
I'll do what any senisble adult will do, have a mess about with the ships on SiSi, and recognise they're still in the balancing stages and are being tweaked.
I'll also realise that in Eve CCP play god. What happens to the ships is their descision when it boils down to making them ready to go live on TQ, not ours.
CCP are the creators of Eve, ultimately, they decide which path it follows. A ship doesn't "need" this or "require" that just because a player, or any number of players feel it does.
Personally, I'll retain my dignity and not whine like a spoiled child on the forums when a ship I've anticipated turns out not to be a solo pwnmobile.
Most of us acutally want a CHALLENGE when we fight, not to press F1-F8 and say "lol pwnt".
I'll retain my dignity and wait for the ships to hit Tranquility, and play with them then.
Myself, and a thousand other players will do what every sucessful species on earth has done for the last few billion years, look at our environment, and adapt to suit it so we don't end up dead or obsolete.
Agreed .. CCP will do as they please regardless of the forums.. As they should. I do hate to see them repeating themselves with "new" ships
I was truely shocked at Tux.. i had to read his posts a few times to make sure i hadnt mis read them. So uncalled for imo. But hey.. we all have bad days at work and im sure he has them to.
Is it fair what they did to the Drake? Of corse it is.. that ship was stupid prenerf.
I like a challenge as much as the next guy But ther is a point that the callange becomes to great Like fitting the Ferox for PvP And Caldari needed a semi solo PvP boat this was said to be the drake. but as it happent its not.
I would love to see the Ferox get a face lift to fill the role the Drake was expected to fill (PvP) as the Drake now takes teh Ferox's old place as a mission runner.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:20:00 -
[253]
Originally by: xOm3gAx Edited by: xOm3gAx on 18/11/2006 17:28:21 Edited by: xOm3gAx on 18/11/2006 17:27:21
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Tux, i wanna make it clear im not whining at all first cus tbh im just glad we have more choices in ships. But the drake did recieve a double nerf and kinetic is the MOST tanked dmg type in eve as it is the primary dmg type for the vast majority of ammo types (stop me if im wrong) so with that being said could we have kept the ROF bonus to test balance before instigating the double nerf recieved. I do agree that the dmg bonus is nice though not quite as effective as it could be which i think anyone who participates in pvp combat knows. If you shield tank you generally have (when not using 3x+ invulns) 2x em 1x kinetic and usually a thermal passive. Armor is usually 2x kinetic 1x thermal 1x explosive with 1x em passive if really needed. In all reality (and i do know theres a really large variety of other possible setups but this is what i've seen the most god knows i've been in my share of fleet battles i was there at U-QVWD and when there were skirmishes before the actual fleet battle those were the general tanks seen based on loot dropped. U-QVWD if you dont remember was one of the last great fights the CA put out before our down fall.) So i'm just curious why can't we have ROF if we dont get 2 dmg types, we know time to target is still an issue and we also know that unless you get in close with missiles dps doesnt count for squat and you have to rely on burst dmg to break the targets tank. So with 1 dmg type ( and if u give a bonus to kinetic u do limit us to that ) you generally break us. Drop a mid and give ROF back and i think it will solve the problems with ppl complaining. You still get your double nerf and we get our ROF. If you read this thanks for your time if you respond then thank you even more.
Also when tanking its not longer a 25% bonus to dmg assuming maxed skills as after tanking if a ship is tanked according to how at least i've generally seen them tanked then you gain a negative bonus to kinetic and actually do more dmg with other types such as thermal. Thanks again tux.
Edit: also im all for you removing 2+ launchers from teh ferox =P If you do can we get 1 more turret and maybe a touch more pg though for fitting it =)
-xOm
Generally, most people do this for a 3 hardner tank on a T1 Ship - T2 resists screw all this depending on shiptype.
1. Shield Tankers use 1 t2 EM, 2 t2 Invurns -> This means that Highist resist is, in order - Exp, Em, Kin, Therm
2. Armour Tankers use 3 EANMII or 2 EANMII + DC -> This means highist resist is, in order - EM, Therm, Kin, Exp
Now EM as a damage type is postion 1 for highist resist in the armour tanking league, and position 2 for the Shield tankers league. This is the source of Amarr whining, which is another issue, since most pvpers armour tank as midslots are too valuble.
However, Kinetic fits in position 3 for both shield and armour tankers so its not that bad. In fact, Kinetic is the new thermal :)
But that is not the point, as non-kinetic missiles are used quite often and deservere a bonus.
But anyhow, just to advise - the setups you mention would get you shot down, be it a Drake or a Avatar :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Romulan Dominiae
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:59:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Originally by: Romulan Dominiae
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=361
Quote:
What other stuff have I been working on
Well there is the Tier 2 battlecruisers. I don't really have any solid info on those yet. So far they're favoring damage over tankability which makes them extremely vulnerable to bigger ships due to their big signature radius and sluggish feel, but would make them quite devastating versus smaller ships, like cruisers.
It says... "so far". It didnt say "They will be".
The blog was posted on 2006.08.01. Changes were to be expected. Radical changes too.
i dont know what your mother tounge is, but so far meaning in this context is like: 'until now ...'
aside from i just filled a request for a written article, i havent followed the discussions on the forums a lot until recently, so i have no idea how many times it was discussed after the blog. but it looks everyone seems to know that the new BCs were promised to be more offiensive than defensive. even i, as a non regular forum reader and eve-site visitor know it.
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Dray
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:48:00 -
[255]
Imho the drake was nerfed because of freak extender setups that wont be used on tranq, except for a few perverts
The ship bonus change was way to much, drop a launcher or change the resist bonus, in effect you've changed the drake into a one legged man and asked him to enter an @rse kicking competition and get you a result.
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Yamaeda
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:03:00 -
[256]
Even with the loss of a (launcher)turret, a Drake is +50% damage compared to a Ferox, probably more due to more BCU ability. What i dont understand, though, is why the +shield resist is there. A Battle Cruiser is a cruiser on steroids, and the T1 BC's are typically the biggest cruiser with an extra turret. The 2nd largest cruiser is typically more of a damage dealer, which the T2 BC is supposed to be.
Giving caldari 2 BC's with shield resists gives them a rail tanker and a missile tanker, and that dont make sense.
Maller -> Prophecy Omen -> Drake Moa -> Ferox Caracal -> Drake?
The current setup seems to be working, but that +resistance must be changed, either copy the bonus of caracal, as this is the big brother, or of the kestrel, as it's the frigate version.
Change bonuses to: +5% kinetic missile, +10% missile velocity (my pref) OR +10% kinetic missile, +5% to exp, em, the-missile
/Y ---------- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Spiltblood
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Posted - 2006.11.23 00:32:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
PLEASE remove the launchers from the ferox and add one more rail. I mean seriously, it's refered to as a rail ship and yet only uses 5 rails. I'll be happy to lose all launcehr slots in favor of one more rail slot...plus just enough power to use it of course :)
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WeirdNoise
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:06:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Anyway, my final verdict on this thread is exactly what I've been saying for months:
BRING BACK TomB!
He was evil and ruthless, but highly effective, and very fair. Tuxford just seems to work on a mixture of incompetence and sloppiness.
/signed !
Isnt it Tuxford too who made the MKII frigs and nerfed the minmatar speed bonus? OMG... how I agree with you. This was among the things which disgusted me most and had me take a long break. WTF is going on with Eve if they put that guy on that most critical job of revamping ships or even developing new ones? Sorry to be blunt, he has always seemed incompetent to me. Yeah TomB is a great guy and was great for the job.
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Flabida jaba
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:16:00 -
[259]
The Drake is fine
Its is a better Missle platform than the Ferox ...Fact! by how much can be debated untill the sun burns out in the sky
I have a feeling that when the stats were released for the pre-nerf drake Tux already Knew that the Nerf hammer was gona hit the Drake hard and long, and was probibly already dreading the resulting cacophony he knew was gona erupt on the forums when it did get Bombed....
poor fella being as its his job to stand infront of the rabid onslaught of forum whine on behalf of CCP.
All we can do now is......whine untill they buff Ferox!!!!!! and yes im serious on that one
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Mordrake
MetaForge
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:31:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Oh yes PLEASE!!! that would be so great!! Then we could have not a single even remotely usefull Missile Battle Cruiser! SWEETNESS!
"Arte et Marte" |
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Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.23 02:45:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Mordrake
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks.
Oh yes PLEASE!!! that would be so great!! Then we could have not a single even remotely usefull Missile Battle Cruiser! SWEETNESS!
lay off tux man.. the poor guy has had enough crap thrown at him.
The saddest thing is that the Ferox actualy dose need a few Launcher points removed and another turret point added. I know he was joking but the removing of Launher points is somthing we have been asking for the Ferox for a while.. in exchange for an extra turret and the grid to fit it.
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Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.23 13:12:00 -
[262]
The Drake was nerfed to be brought in line with the Ferox... oh man that's gold. Seriously, for the fittings that made the Drake uber there are solutions that don't nerf the ship to a Ferox MkII:
Reduce missile flight time for Heavy Missiles to 50%, for Heavy Assault Missiles to 66% (10km theoretical max range). Replace Javelin HAMs with something useful, yet not overpowered (e.g. T2 HAMs doing 2 damage types, flying faster at reduced flight time, whatever) INTRODUCE STACKING PENALTY FOR SHIELD EXTENDERS That's what all the fuzz was about, isn't it? These insane unbeatable 4/5 extender setups who noone with half a brain would use on TQ.
There, bam, instafix to all things that make the Drake overpowered, yet leaving the ship useful and desirable.
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Saturous
MetaForge
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Posted - 2006.11.29 10:47:00 -
[263]
I hate to say it but after reading the most of 10 pages with this topic, the nerf needed doing. I switched to specialising in Missile Operation instead of the Gunnery path after reading in another forum about how Gunnery users require a lot more skill points than someone using missiles. It is rather noticable that I have been doing a lot more damage with missiles than I did with lasers, which shocks me even more since I had more Turret skills then Missile skills. Caldari users are what I would call the 'in range no miss' race. As long as the ammo flies, the target dies. The only noticable downfall with this is obviously the fact that Missiles require ammo not charges. A few people also mentioned about using different Damage types. Indeed if you don't follow the bonuses given to the Drake you will lack the damage, but some damage is better than no damage. The hammer of the nerf does indeed work like a pendulum. When some people complain and action is taken, it may swing too far and go over the top. That is up to the developers to make the decision seeing as we pay them to do their job which they are doing... There is a real issue here with the new Battlecruiser and yes, people will say "OH i'm going to go PVP now... where did I park that Raven?" I guess the Raven is specialised for PVP as this is why it is favoured. No Powergrid to tank or fire. This again; a Caldari advantage. Turrets require powergrid remember. This is their disadvantage. They also require the best range. Before this nerf you couldn't really label a true 'problem' with the Caldari ways. You could shoot long distances, require no cap, tank without cap, dish out extreme damage. Do know I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. We all play the game differently.
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