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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.08.17 21:38:00 -
[451]
That makes sense. Thanks much, Hoshi. :)
(I think I see what you mean about ship probing too. It's kind of cool that that's brings more depth into what's otherwise a very simple system.)
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Ki Shodan
Gallente
deep blue
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Posted - 2007.08.29 18:22:00 -
[452]
 Originally by: Hoshi
The problem with exploration is that you don't know where the target is, not even after getting the first hit do you know where the target is in relations to the probe. This makes it very hard to avoid/take advantage of interference/amplification.
This explains a lot of my poor results after the first hit, especially in systems with more than one sig (eg. grav and unknown).
I often used inflight BMs to get better coverage of the inner planets, but left the quest's on the outer planets, when using smaller probes on the hit to get possible result from the outer planets (other planets more than 4 au away).
Is it fixed with the last patch or should I destroy the quests at the other planets, when i get a hit?
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Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor! |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.08.29 18:31:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Ki Shodan
Originally by: Hoshi
The problem with exploration is that you don't know where the target is, not even after getting the first hit do you know where the target is in relations to the probe. This makes it very hard to avoid/take advantage of interference/amplification.
This explains a lot of my poor results after the first hit, especially in systems with more than one sig (eg. grav and unknown).
I often used inflight BMs to get better coverage of the inner planets, but left the quest's on the outer planets, when using smaller probes on the hit to get possible result from the outer planets (other planets more than 4 au away).
Is it fixed with the last patch or should I destroy the quests at the other planets, when i get a hit?
You don't need to destroy the quests, just don't select them.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
BoBoTai
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Posted - 2007.10.07 22:06:00 -
[454]
From the guide i understand that there should be an graphical window besides the system scanner tab showing colored dots (red, yellow etc.).
I don't see that graphical window anywhere. Do i have switch it on somewhere?
Thanks!
p.s. can't be said often enough: great guide!
Grz. BoBoTai
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.08 01:13:00 -
[455]
Those are marked on your system map--F10.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
BoBoTai
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Posted - 2007.10.08 05:36:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Those are marked on your system map--F10.
You mean the "Solar system map"?
Gr. BoBoTai
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BoBoTai
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Posted - 2007.10.08 10:35:00 -
[457]
I actually mean the radar view in the system scanner corner. You'l find it at the following link: system scanner graphical radar view.
I *do* have the system scanner window, but *without* the graphical radar view. so it's impossible to get an good 360 degrees overview.
I would like to know how to get this graphical radar view in my system scanner tab.
Thanks!
Gr. BoBoTai.
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Matrices Reborn
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:36:00 -
[458]
It used to be there but in its infinite wisdom CCP removed the scanner for no good reason from the directional scanner tab. So now you have to open up the scanner and hit F10 concurrently to do directional scanning properly.
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CaldariSlave
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:43:00 -
[459]
Amplification and interference has my head swimming a bit.
Let me see if I can phrase a few questions to help me understand. If any of my initial statements are wrong please correct me!
Interference is a wholly detrimental effect that occurs when the target is between probes. It occurs regardless of whether the probes are in range of the target. The total interference is calculated based on how far your closest (first?) probe is from the scan target, maxing at about 30%.
Amplification is a wholly positive effect that occurs when multiple probes are deployed so that the target is not between any two probes but rather on one 'side' of them.
Scenario 1
Let's say I have a target in a mission at Planet 1 and Planet 2 is 200 au away from Plant 1. I deploy a ferret, a spook, a snoop and a 4au exploration (quest?)all between Planet 1 and Planet 2, all on one side of the target and all in their own scan range of the target.
1a) Does deploying multiple probes all on one side of the target create only amplification?
1b)Is the magnitude of the amplifciation calculated in the same manner as with interference?
1c)Does this mean that the amplification bonus is greater if the closest probe is at it's max raneg from the target?
1d)If I can create interference with additional probes that aren't in range of the target but still sandwich the target, can I create amplification by deploying multiple probes all on the same side of the target even if they are not in range?
2) Is there a seperate effect that can degrade scan probe performance other than interference, some form of basic stacking penalty between probes?
3) Does using exploration and ship probes together have any stacking penalties past interference and amplification?
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Yunii
Allied Combat Team
Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2007.11.05 00:00:00 -
[460]
Are the Observators not working like they used anymore? Silent nerf?
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Originally by: CCP Arkanon
I think this thread also illustrates perfectly that we neither censor nor do we try to silence our customers. |
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AsfALT
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:10:00 -
[461]
Hello,
This is a great guide.
Did i understand right that mission runners are almost impossible to scan?
Any input on how i could do that is wellecomed.
Thnx.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.19 01:50:00 -
[462]
I have heard that it is now drastically harder to search out folks in mission deadspace. Is this true?
Quote:
ItĘs still possible to see probes on the directional scanner by setting it to not use overview settings, even easier now as a lot of stuff like npcs and roids have been removed from this list so it will come up much faster and be less cluttered.
Is it possible to toggle some overview setting so that you can see scan probes on your overview, or on the directional scanner while using the over view settings?
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:04:00 -
[463]
Originally by: CaldariSlave
1a) Does deploying multiple probes all on one side of the target create only amplification?
1b)Is the magnitude of the amplifciation calculated in the same manner as with interference?
1c)Does this mean that the amplification bonus is greater if the closest probe is at it's max raneg from the target?
1d)If I can create interference with additional probes that aren't in range of the target but still sandwich the target, can I create amplification by deploying multiple probes all on the same side of the target even if they are not in range?
2) Is there a seperate effect that can degrade scan probe performance other than interference, some form of basic stacking penalty between probes?
3) Does using exploration and ship probes together have any stacking penalties past interference and amplification?
Sorry for the delay at answering, easy to miss when the thread is not sticky anymore.
First of all your scenario does not work as you can not place probes inside the scan range of other probes (which your scenario does).
1a) Unknown, I have only tested with 2 probes so far.
1b) Yes
1c) Yes BUT because it's at its max range its strength is already reduced from range much more than amplification will boost it up.
1d) Yes that is the only way of creating amplification (as you can not place probes inside scan range of other probes).
2) Not on sensor strength, but there are also effects on accuracy that I have not been able to nail down yet.
3) Have not tested but I very much doubt it. For the system there is no real difference between a ship and exploration probe, just different range/strength.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:06:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Yunii
Are the Observators not working like they used anymore? Silent nerf?
Observators are working fine.
Originally by: AsfALT
Hello,
This is a great guide.
Did i understand right that mission runners are almost impossible to scan?
Any input on how i could do that is wellecomed.
Thnx.
Not impossible, just much harder.
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
ItĘs still possible to see probes on the directional scanner by setting it to not use overview settings, even easier now as a lot of stuff like npcs and roids have been removed from this list so it will come up much faster and be less cluttered.
Is it possible to toggle some overview setting so that you can see scan probes on your overview, or on the directional scanner while using the over view settings?
No you can not add them to the overview.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2007.11.28 16:47:00 -
[465]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 28/11/2007 16:59:28
Quote:
1d)If I can create interference with additional probes that aren't in range of the target but still sandwich the target, can I create amplification by deploying multiple probes all on the same side of the target even if they are not in range?
1d) Yes that is the only way of creating amplification (as you can not place probes inside scan range of other probes).
So let me get this straight.
1)Interference is the only negative influence on scan strength and interference isn't generated if the probes are all on the same side?
Two Scenarios to ask about let's say this:
Target--3au--bookmark with 4u probe exploration probe---5.1au---snoop---5.1au---snoop
2)Am I better off scanning that way than I am just using the 3au probe?
What if I could do this. Exploration Probe---3au---Target---3au---Exploration Probe
3)Am I better off using the first scenario or the second?
4) How can I compare the relative strengths of the setups.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.28 19:34:00 -
[466]
1) Correct.
2) This will give better scan strength than the 4au probe alone.
3) Second scenario.
4) Intersecting 2 probes will always give the best strength IF both probes have the same strength. If you use probes with different strength the interference can become higher than the intersection boost. Interference can lower signal strength by upto 30%. So if the strength from the second probe (after range reduction and interference here as well) is less than 30% of the strength of the first probe (after range reduction) then it will hinder more than it helps.
If you can not place 2 probes of the same strength so they intersect the second option is to amplify by place the other probe/probes on the same side of the target. For best result try to get a straight a line going from target to probe A to probe B.
If we draw a triangle with target T, probe A and probe B as the corners we want angle T to be as small as possible, if angle T becomes more than 90 degrees we will get interference instead of amplification.
I do not have the formula for amount of amplifications/interference to angle at this time, I only know from a couple of tests that the angle does have this effect.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.04 01:47:00 -
[467]
Just noticed my E:ON version of the guide (minus the pretty pictures) are available online on CCPs own site.
Player Guide - Ship Probing
So for anyone who didn't get that E:ON issue it's there for you to read.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
deadok
Amarr
Guards of Heavens Door
Absolute Guardians Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.10 15:26:00 -
[468]
Edited by: deadok on 10/12/2007 15:27:51
Ok, interference.
Spent 4 hours yersturday.
Got a unknown in system, started to scan it. After 2.5 hours of scanning with quests(approx 70-80 attempts with my skills) i finally found an 0.06 result.
I was really dissapointed, since (after 40-50 attempt) i was sure that it would be smth like 10/10.
So i decided to make some tests:
1) scanned down this plex (it was angel 8/10), made 2 spots, 0.25-0.26au away from plex each (smth like probe1 - plex - probe2, it was a triangle actually - distance between probes about 0.46au, or smth), dropped sifts and started scan,scan,scan, redrop probes, scan, etc...
Guess what? 18 attemps and no result.
Just to check, warped to plex - gate is still there.
Dropped one sift in 0.26au, 2/3 results (smth like 0.4-0.5, don't remeber).
So, assuming, that everything is ok, chance of not finding this plex in 18 attempts would be 0.6^18 = 0.01% or 1 in 10000 - misfortune?
2) Made a spot in 0.506au, dropped one sift there and another on gate - 0 results of 6 att.
3) Dropped lone sift right on gate, 5/6 attempts - 0.6180 with accuracy of 30-280.
your opinions?
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.12.15 22:29:00 -
[469]
There are some strange things with scanning. Once there was this unpiloted ship sitting in a deep safe which I found by chance with the directional scanner while warping to another deepsafe. By some bookmark placing I got within snoop range, and all math said I should have 100% chance of finding it, in the end it took 10 snoops and when I finally got a hit it said 2.3 strength.
What I am trying to say is that not everything related to scanning can be explained :)
Maybe what you where seeing where some lingering deadspace area effect, when the plex has been spawned it's a deadspace area which means harder to find stuff in it, then maybe CCP has some code to make sure that the site beacon itself is not effected by this deadspace field but maybe this code is broken for multiple probes.
It's one possible explanation and there are probably others too.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Phenglei Kai
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Posted - 2008.03.01 22:24:00 -
[470]
This is a lot of great info...love that probing
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Strags
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.24 01:06:00 -
[471]
Thanks Hoshi! Appreciate your time putting this together. |
Aron Palatine
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Posted - 2008.04.15 07:19:00 -
[472]
I'm trying to run the math on these scan probes.
Here's something I think I've found that may be wrong. Feel free to point me to an updated posting if this is out of date, edited or I'm otherwise being blind...
[Contact me VIA evemail please, I can't juggle these forums]
Originally by: Hoshi
The full formula to calculate Signal Strength is:
Signal Strength = (Probe Sensor Strength * (1 + Level of Astrometric Triangulation * 0.05) / 100) * (1 ū (0.65 ((Target Range / Max Range) ^ 1.5))) * (Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength)
Then the example:
Originally by: Hoshi
Signal Strength = (2.5 * (1 + 3*0.1) / 100) * (1 - (0.65 ((35 / 40) ^ 1.5))) * (480 / 24) = 0.304 [where] Ferret 40 au probe to try to locate a Scorpion 35 au away. We have Signal Acquisition level 3.
Break it down:
(1 + Level of Astrometric Triangulation * 0.05)
was represented as
(1 + Level of Signal Acquisition * 0.1)
I believe it should be Astro. Tri. as that makes sense and the number should be .05 (5% Scan Str Bonus per lvl). Where as Signal Acq. only deals with scan speeds (-10% plvl to scan time).
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Aron Palatine
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Posted - 2008.04.15 07:42:00 -
[473]
I'm not sure why either, but when the range of your target increases, the max deviation decreases... kind of illogical I think. My code is below, in edited c/p from excel:
Max Scan Deviation
-8.8km=200km*((0.6*(1.342pts^2))-(1.6*1.342pts)+1)*(1-(astro pin lvl 3)*0.1)
Signal Strength
1.416pts =(20.0pts*(1+(astro tri lvl 3)*0.1)/100)*(1-(0.65*((4.9AU/5AU)^1.5)))*(300m/18pts)
Variables:
Snoop Probe (200km Max Deviation, 20.0pts Sensor Strength, 5 AU Range)
Base Eos Target (300m Sig Rad, 18pts Sensor Strength) @ 4.9 AU away
Astrological Triangulation 3
Astrological Pin Pointing 3
Change this to a 2.5 AU range for the target Eos and now the Max Scan Deviation is 210.9km, 2 AU = 284.3km, and the closer it gets the greater the Scan Deviation.
Is all this correct? Do I have something backwards here somewhere? It's already the small hours of the morning as I'm doing this so fatigue could easily be to blame for this. Thanks for looking at this, and explaining to a scanning novice.
Also, great job on the OP, I would be really pretty lost without it.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.04.15 08:59:00 -
[474]
Answered per evemail as requested but here is the cliff notes:
1. You must be using a really old cached version (eve-search maybe?). Both the scan strength formula and the examples have been updated around 16 months ago.
2. Yes the accuracy formula is not correct, it even says so in the guide. I have yet to come up with a formula that fits the data.
Quote: The formula to calculate Maximum effective Scan Deviation is not know at this time, the following formula will provide an estimate that works for most cases:
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Rafael Tonka
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Posted - 2008.04.17 07:09:00 -
[475]
Thanks for an amazing guide to probing and scanning Hoshi.
I've just got myself my 1st Cov Ops ship and will be playing with it quite a lot in the near future to try and make the most of these new skills!
1 question for you from the guide though - in your list of scan groups it's got an entry for 'Scrap'. Has this now been removed as I can't seem to see it anywhere in the scanner window in-game?
Cheers pal
Raf |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.04.17 07:39:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Rafael Tonka
Thanks for an amazing guide to probing and scanning Hoshi.
I've just got myself my 1st Cov Ops ship and will be playing with it quite a lot in the near future to try and make the most of these new skills!
1 question for you from the guide though - in your list of scan groups it's got an entry for 'Scrap'. Has this now been removed as I can't seem to see it anywhere in the scanner window in-game?
Cheers pal
Raf
You must be looking at an old version as well. Might I ask where (so I maybe can get that old version updated as well)?.
The "Scrap" group (which wasn't working anyway) has been replaced by "Cosmic Anomaly" a couple of patches ago. The guide was updated when it happened.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.04.17 09:20:00 -
[477]
Guide updated with information about faction launchers, probes and implants. Should have been done months ago but now it's finally done. |
Rafael Tonka
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Posted - 2008.04.17 10:26:00 -
[478]
I was looking at the guide with the link a few posts above...
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g622.asp
Just noticed the mistake in my post (ie, not paying attention to what is there now!!)
So is the cosmic anomoly category useful in any way?? I'll have a more thorough read up through the thread when I get a break - at work just now.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2008.04.17 12:42:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Rafael Tonka
I was looking at the guide with the link a few posts above...
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g622.asp
Just noticed the mistake in my post (ie, not paying attention to what is there now!!)
So is the cosmic anomoly category useful in any way?? I'll have a more thorough read up through the thread when I get a break - at work just now.
Ah that's a copy of the guide I wrote of EON magazine, they put it in the guide section without informing me which meant I didn't have a chance to update it. I been thinking of getting them to update it but atm I feel it's better to wait for the EVElopedia and get it right there.
Cosmic Anomaly lets you search for so called Encounters, npc combat sites. They are part of exploration but sort of the lite version of it. You can find those sites with the built in scanner in your ship, don't need to use probes for it.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Rafael Tonka
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Posted - 2008.04.18 10:58:00 -
[480]
Thanks :)
Did my 1st bit of scanning in Dodixie last night and used 12 probes to looking for ships and drones. Collected over 30 assorted drones from a few returns, mainlt t1 but a few hammerhead II's and Ogre II's.
Also lucked on 2 accel gates. Through 1 had a whole mission worth of salvage + loot (mission runner was no longer in system so I looted too) and other was an untouched mission - too many BS for my little destroyer fitted for salvage to cope with, so I ran away.
Total haul for night just over 15mil isk. Not bad for 1st real day of probing :)
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