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Myang Li	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:16:00 - [391] Originally by: Loyal Servant So your a fuzzy carebear? I have been ganked. It never wrecked my day. Know what would wreck my day? Getting into a wreck on the road or something. Eve = GAME. Allowing a GAME to wreck your day? Seek help. Me, and im sure like my BOB, ASCN, FIX (BOB stooges) and the like will agree, getting ganked does not wreck someones day. Dont like getting ganked? turn it off. There are SO MANY friggin ways to NOT get ganked, I cannot count them. Have I ganked you before? :) So, ganking a player can never wreck someones day or force them to leave eve. Lets see.... 7 Day old player doing lvl 1 missions. Gets to end of it to find a player has moved the key mission item to their own can. Player now flagged & pop'd on way to station. Rince and repeat a few times and I am sure that the player wont be around much longer. Somehow I think that will totally wreck their game play and I sure as hell wont log on again if that happened to me back then. This is what is currently happening and what this thread is about, not players wandering into 0.0 or 0.4 systems BTW, I am NOT a fuzzy carebear, I will PvP IF needed and I am more than capable of defending myself when it comes to it but I will not go out of my way to cause someone else to have a bad day. The problem is when people use game mechanics to force you to either be ganked by concord or to PvP them when the only outcome is that you will die simply because they have a PvP setup, usually in a ship several times more powerfull than yours and you have a setup to do the mission that wont stand 5 minutes of PvP combat, plus they have mates in the same system just waiting to jump in and finish the kill if you even fire one shot on the griefer and the system is in empire space where PvP should be either by corp wars OR by theft. Getting ganked is all part of the fun when you know the risks, picking a fight with a player in empire space that is a) is unable to defend themselves b) Totally outclassed by you and c) does not want to fight in the first place is just plain sad. Yes, 0.0 aliance wars are fun, I have been involved in a few and everyone there knows the risks and rewards. What I DONT like are people that force the issue onto people that wont stand a chance. Warping into a lvl 1 mission in 1.0 space in a PvP fitted BS and stealing the mission can to force combat is just plain sad. A player doing a lvl 1 mission is usually in a frigate and (in most cases) will have alot poorer skills that the person that stole the can. In your case, yes, living in 0.0 has its risks and rewards, you are fully aware of these when you take up living in 0.0 space, these same risks should NOT be present in a 1.0 system where you need to face a foe that would outclass a spawn in a lvl 4 mission when doing a lvl 1 mission in a frigate. This whole thread is turning into a PvP v Empire dwellers fight. The thread was originally about griefers stopping people from doing things they want in empire by using game mechanics to force a fight that they will easily win, most of the time the person being griefed is unable to defend themselves. Remember, we are talking about 0.5+ systems. PvP in 0.4 or below is all part of the risks of being there.
Deikan Frost Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:19:00 - [392] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Raquel Smith I've ctrl+q'd (and would do it again) to save my ship Well, I guess we can ignore any opinion you may have as to what constitutes fair play then. Define Fair Play please... If for you, geting ganked 10 to 1 is fair play, then think your opinion doesn't count either. If someone CTRL-Q's during a 1v1 fight where it was tight all through the fight until the end and just as the person is about to lose all its hull it CTRL-Q's out, THAT's not fair... Everything else IMO, is.
Mr dummy	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:20:00 - [393] Originally by: Harisdrop Originally by: Mr dummy Originally by: Harisdrop I have to say with 500k subscriptions and 40k online, a few mission runners wont be missed. Empire dwellers make up the overwhelming majority of the playerbase (and CCP's revenue). Most are there because its easy. Most are there because you have to have several million SP to join your typical 0.0 alliance. And that takes months. So they are stuck rotting in empire space until they meet the minimum SP requirements. At least they could run lousy missions for lousy pay until they met those minimum requirements. Now they can't even do that.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:20:00 - [394] Maybe I missed something. Can you have recourse for the actions of the griefers? Can you war-dec them? Maybe you need to have a change of location and get some protection. Why does there have to be a game mechanic to keep you happy? ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Polizeis	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:23:00 - [395] Most of you are the most big-headed twts going.... I think sometimes you forget where you started, noobs need isk to get to get started, missions is one of the more popular choices available. Let people develop or you will* have an EVE full of noobs you get frustrated with.
Exlegion Caldari Legion's Knight	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:25:00 - [396] Originally by: Harisdrop I am the most important player type in EVE not you. WTF is going on here. I have not heard such whinage since Tech II bpo where introduced. I have to say with 500k subscriptions and 40k online, a few mission runners wont be missed. Most players that do missions will adapt or find a new occupation. Welcome to the dream of EVE. Missions where not suppose to be the end game! Your tutorial is over. You can now progress. Look around your house and maybe this might teach you something. Progress is important in RL also. Note Jump clones are easy to get. join an Alliance with stations. Seems there are alot. Empire is boring. I really had to think twice about responding to this, since mostly it's just trolling, but I'm baiting: How much of those 500k subscriptions do you think live/play in empire? And by you saying you're the most important player type in EVE just goes to show how oblivious you truly are in the subject of economy. And just so you're clear, ABOVE ALL ELSE, EVE IS A BUSINESS!!! And must operate as such in order to remain in business. Ex.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:25:00 - [397] Originally by: Harisdrop I am the most important player type in EVE not you. WTF is going on here. I have not heard such whinage since Tech II bpo where introduced. I have to say with 500k subscriptions and 40k online, a few mission runners wont be missed. Most players that do missions will adapt or find a new occupation. Welcome to the dream of EVE. Missions where not suppose to be the end game! Your tutorial is over. You can now progress. Look around your house and maybe this might teach you something. Progress is important in RL also. Note Jump clones are easy to get. join an Alliance with stations. Seems there are alot. Empire is boring. BS and you know it. If you read the original post you would understand this about more then just about the PvE vs. PvP that the thread has tumbled into. There was absolutely no pvp part of this griefing. Its in high sec, mission runner cannot shoot him. Its pure greif play nothing else. Anyone claiming that jumping a high sec mission and stealing the mission critical loot is real pvp is only kidding themselves. The real carebears in this equation are the weak willed so called pirates that want anything but a fight (that why they are jumping high sec missions, and not out in 0.0). I dont like missions but some people do. Who are you to tell them, their gameplay and what they like is inferior to yours. Not to mention the majority of missions runner are actually new players, not alts of vets, shows your arrogance that you assume everyone there are no new players in those 33k online, just vet alts. The display of stupid arrogance in this post by people who fail to graps the core concept of eve as a balance of risk v. reward is laughable. No self respecting pirate is out there jumping high sec missions...same people doing this were the carebears who fitted stabs on tech2 sniping bs aligned for warp, just carebears that dont actually want to fight anyone.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:27:00 - [398] Originally by: Night Haunter [...] Maybe have NPCs aggro only the person who accepted the mission or is in that person's gang. [...] That's basically what happens today and what makes the grief play possible. Warp in, pop the triggers for the next 1-4 spawn waves, warp out. Come back later to mop up and loot the mission runner's remains. If you wait a bit, you can even avoid most NPC because they returned to their parking positions. Yes, I tested this and it works like a charm once you know how to attack another pilot's opponents and what npc or buildings spawn the next wave(s). --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:27:00 - [399] Originally by: Fink Angel Anyone who thinks differently that when the casual players leave, that tumbleweed will blow through Tranquility, take a look at ANY other MMORPG that has made a hardcore PvP server. Popular for a short while, then it dies. You seem to know very little about the history of Eve, and how it developed. The concern in the early days was how the game would be ruined by an influx of "casual gamers", turning our cool but unpopular niche game in to something more appealing to the mainstream. Now we are supposed to worry about them leaving? Let them go. Eve has been butchered enough to cater to their superficial "me only" tastes, I wouldn't miss them one bit. I'd rather see Eve die than continually mutate into WoW in space. CCP once stated they wouldn't compromise their vision in order to secure mainstream success. How times have changed. I know it is a business, and that is all cool, but CCP was very different "back in the day". If they want to continue giving ground to the people who would never have even tried the "original" Eve, fine. Just have the decency to drop the Eve name, because continually seeing the game that no-one else dared to produce being softened and simplified to cater to people who don't even share the original vision is more frustrating than I can express in words. If that sounds all elitist, well, I don't care in the slightest. If it wasn't for the ability to play bad as well as good, Eve wouldn't have lasted much more than six months. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Dendrin Koljn Minmatar Elite United Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:28:00 - [400] 1st'ly I PvP, so don't bother to tell me mission greifing is anything else than just plain stupid (and probable done by the same crowd that sit on gates all day in low sec, shooting easy targets and running at the sign of anything that could hurt them - rather than going into 0.0 and PvP'ing) I am also a Miner/Refiner and need to do mission to get good standings with corps I refine at - Player owned station refining, lets be honest, sucks. So if i start getting idiots messing up my missions then my 'costs' go up.. I also know enuf PvP'ers to know they run missions regular for the LP rewards. So YOUR costs go up. The more you kill the production base of EVE the more expensive you ships/mods become till most likely everyone is just PvP'ing...that'll be FUN won't it.. ONLY NPC Provided ships and mods for everyone to use...That'll be fun won't it. Petition them, Shout their names in Local, Region, and all the other channels. They are as scummy as Macro miners. If all you care about is your own self gratification them **** off outta EVE and buy yourself a mirror.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:30:00 - [401] Originally by: Harisdrop Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/12/2006 19:22:29 Can you war-dec them? you could just as easily force the pirate to war dec before being able to jump the mission couldnt you. But you and I know the these socalled "pirates" do not want a fight, just to greif. And dont think for a second lots of pirates dont hang out in noob corps themselves to prevent war decs.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:31:00 - [402] Its good to call me a troll. I also want you to know I dont care who is doing this to your game play it could be any player. The point is not what EVE- CCP can do for you but what ingame can you do to stop this! If a NPC corporation player is doing this then he should be banned. This goes to NPC corporation players are a disease. IF they have more than soo many SP CCP has to figure something out to get them out of the griefer role. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Mr dummy	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:33:00 - [403] Originally by: Harisdrop Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/12/2006 19:22:29 Maybe I missed something. Can you have recourse for the actions of the griefers? No. Read the descriptions that are given for how griefers do what they do. There is nothing you can do except attack them. If they player is less than a month old, that's not going to happen. You'll die. And in the off-chance you win, you're still out the time that you should have been running missions and making isk. Quote: Can you war-dec them? No. They are in empire because they have no money. They are in the newbie corp because they have no SP. Quote: Maybe you need to have a change of location Are you offering to let 1 month old charcaters run missions in D2 space? Quote: and get some protection. Are you offering to protect 1 month old mission runners? Are you suggesting that a group of 1 month old mission runners get together to kill that 10m SP griefer? Because I guarantee the the griefer can win against any number of month-old characters. Quote: Why does there have to be a game mechanic to keep you happy? To keep them in the game, and paying CCP. Quote: I would not let them slap me in the face more than once. What did your mamma say. Shame on you first time. So why don't you tell us exactly what you would do with a month-old character who is being griefed by a year-old, 12M SP player. Please be specific.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:33:00 - [404] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Fink Angel Anyone who thinks differently that when the casual players leave, that tumbleweed will blow through Tranquility, take a look at ANY other MMORPG that has made a hardcore PvP server. Popular for a short while, then it dies. You seem to know very little about the history of Eve, and how it developed. The concern in the early days was how the game would be ruined by an influx of "casual gamers", turning our cool but unpopular niche game in to something more appealing to the mainstream. Now we are supposed to worry about them leaving? Let them go. Eve has been butchered enough to cater to their superficial "me only" tastes, I wouldn't miss them one bit. I'd rather see Eve die than continually mutate into WoW in space. CCP once stated they wouldn't compromise their vision in order to secure mainstream success. How times have changed. I know it is a business, and that is all cool, but CCP was very different "back in the day". If they want to continue giving ground to the people who would never have even tried the "original" Eve, fine. Just have the decency to drop the Eve name, because continually seeing the game that no-one else dared to produce being softened and simplified to cater to people who don't even share the original vision is more frustrating than I can express in words. If that sounds all elitist, well, I don't care in the slightest. If it wasn't for the ability to play bad as well as good, Eve wouldn't have lasted much more than six months. agreed but this is different. Eve has always worked towards a risk vs. reward system. In this case, the mission jumper has little to no risk, while the mission runner has it all. Loss of standing for mission failure (severe on a level 4, and loss of ship from massive aggro, and little to no recourse to save that mission, because its not like a war dec is instantaneous.
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:34:00 - [405] Originally by: Avon If that sounds all elitist, well, I don't care in the slightest. If it wasn't for the ability to play bad as well as good, Eve wouldn't have lasted much more than six months. Yes, I totally understand that. I've heard of you. You've made a living from pirating. Proper pirating. I've hear you fight with honour. To be honest, I don't even care whether pirates are honourable or not really. I'm surprised that you don't think that high sec mission griefers, for that is what we are talking about here, are not the lamest of the lame. You have some balls, you're the flipside of the coin to the people I'm talking about, and you and your kind are good for Eve. I'm not talking about ruining the game for you. I'm talking about stopping people ruining the game for me.
OldPueblo Gallente Defenders of Order	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:38:00 - [406] Its really funny the amount of times that wardecs have been offered as a solution in this thread when its nowhere near a solution. Please people, you're making yourselves look dumb. READ.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:39:00 - [407] Originally by: Harisdrop Its good to call me a troll. I also want you to know I dont care who is doing this to your game play it could be any player. The point is not what EVE- CCP can do for you but what ingame can you do to stop this! If a NPC corporation player is doing this then he should be banned. This goes to NPC corporation players are a disease. IF they have more than soo many SP CCP has to figure something out to get them out of the griefer role. The problem is there is nothing the mission runner can do to save the mission if the loot is stolen, that is a huge risk...massive standing drop. A war dec take 24 hours. in high sec the mission runner can not shoot the mission jumper. Do you see what i am saying, its not a PvE vs. PvP thing here, there is no PvP at all in this case...its pure grief play, nothing more. And by the way my corp is shown, i dont run missions, and i live in 0.0. I just feel people are attacking these mission runners as carebears, when in this 1 particular instance they actually have a valid arguement. You will also see that I told the low sec mission runner that complained in this thread, to go to a different place to whine, because what happened to him was perfectly fine. I just think people have lost sight a bit about what is actually happeing, incuding the devs. They want to fix the probes, but the probes are not the problem, they work fine...they are putting some risk into low sec mission running. Find a solution to this 1 issue that is actually a real issue. And boost low sec mission rewards to reflect the increased risk with the new probes. That would be a fair solution in my mind.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:40:00 - [408] If the issue is that you are a month old char, what does the tutorial say to do? I would be astounded if you wanted to join a player corp that you could not find one. Ahh soo you really have been in a NPC corporation for 2 years now. Doing solo missions. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:42:00 - [409] Originally by: OldPueblo Its really funny the amount of times that wardecs have been offered as a solution in this thread when its nowhere near a solution. Please people, you're making yourselves look dumb. READ. Agreed... A war dec does not fix the problem with the loss of balance to risk vs. reward. Once the mission is jumped...all the risk is on the mission runner, not the jumper. A war dec takes 24h, so you still loose your standing and fail the mission. That could be weeks of mission running to make it up, and the mission runner in high sec cannot stop it. If the jumper aggros everything and stays near the gate, the mission is going to be darn near impossible to complete as well.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:42:00 - [410] Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/12/2006 19:43:15 Originally by: OldPueblo Its really funny the amount of times that wardecs have been offered as a solution in this thread when its nowhere near a solution. Please people, you're making yourselves look dumb. READ. Why do you think wardecs are dumb? When I was in Empire I lived for the war dec. I knew that I was fighting for something. EVE has become soft. I like being hard. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:44:00 - [411] Originally by: Harisdrop If the issue is that you are a month old char, what does the tutorial say to do? I would be astounded if you wanted to join a player corp that you could not find one. Ahh soo you really have been in a NPC corporation for 2 years now. Doing solo missions. You and nobody supporting what the jumpers have done has offered a way for the mission runner to save the mission and not loose standings. The jumper takes no risks what so ever...thats the problem. The only risk he takes is a possible future war dec. but he still gets to grief that mission.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:46:00 - [412] Originally by: Harisdrop Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/12/2006 19:43:15 Originally by: OldPueblo Its really funny the amount of times that wardecs have been offered as a solution in this thread when its nowhere near a solution. Please people, you're making yourselves look dumb. READ. Why do you think wardecs are dumb? When I was in Empire I lived for the war dec. I knew that I was fighting for something. EVE has become soft. I like being hard. It doesnt save the mission or keep you from losing standing for not completing it. Thats the problem. A lvl 4 failed mission is going to cost a casual player weeks of playtime, and at the time the player jumps his mission he has little or no recourse to stop him from ruining the mission.
Midnight Rayne	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:52:00 - [413] Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Avon If that sounds all elitist, well, I don't care in the slightest. If it wasn't for the ability to play bad as well as good, Eve wouldn't have lasted much more than six months. Yes, I totally understand that. I've heard of you. You've made a living from pirating. Proper pirating. I've hear you fight with honour. To be honest, I don't even care whether pirates are honourable or not really. I'm surprised that you don't think that high sec mission griefers, for that is what we are talking about here, are not the lamest of the lame. You have some balls, you're the flipside of the coin to the people I'm talking about, and you and your kind are good for Eve. I'm not talking about ruining the game for you. I'm talking about stopping people ruining the game for me. As evidenced by the people I try and get to play this game, who quit because "I'm not going to pay to play a game where I can't do anything because the people who are better than I am continually kill me and my ship, and I've only been playing for 3 days. I thought 1.0-.5 was supposed to be safe." One of them was jacked just outside the station after undocking for the tutorial. He's no longer playing mainly because, in his words, he's not going to spend money to be frustrated. PvP Is a part of EVE. I for one engage in it, and I think it's fun. But 6 months before this, I neither had the skills nor the ship and isk to engage in PvP, let alone just starting, and the way that I got the isk for it was to do missions, as I find mining to be mind-numbingly boring. It took me a long while to get to where I'm at today (and I still have a long way to go). Most of the people who get jacked just outside of the station, or in their first set of missions quit. PvE is also part of EVE, and a very valuable part of it as well. Without new subscribers, EvE is dead. End of story. And in the current state, I see fewer and fewer people opting to pay for an account after the trial. /end rant As to the OP's post, perhaps locking people out of missions in .8 or greater sec space would be a fix for it. Not the best, but one that would allow a lot of new players develop, and get a feel for the game. Locking the mission critical objectives in a can also works imho. But something needs to be done, and I would say just in high sec, .8 and above. .7,.6, and .5 just like it is now. .4 and below no changes. Just a thought, give the new players time to adjust, and give those who want safe (read: no griefers or PvP) a place to do it in. throws on flame-retardant suit
Mr dummy	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:53:00 - [414] Edited by: Mr dummy on 06/12/2006 19:58:38 Edited by: Mr dummy on 06/12/2006 19:54:03 Originally by: Harisdrop Edited by: Harisdrop on 06/12/2006 19:43:15 Originally by: OldPueblo Its really funny the amount of times that wardecs have been offered as a solution in this thread when its nowhere near a solution. Please people, you're making yourselves look dumb. READ. Why do you think wardecs are dumb? They aren't dumb. But people who suggest them as a solution to being griefed are dumb. As I've already explained, a wardec isn't an option for a month old player who is getting griefed trying to run missions. Wardecs cost money that new players simply don't have access to. If theyhad that kind of money, they wouldn't be running missions in Empire. Quote: When I was in Empire I lived for the war dec. I knew that I was fighting for something. Wardecs are fun. But only if you're in a 0.0 alliance. Quote: EVE has become soft. I like being hard.
BBQ Gallente Suicidal Tendencies Ltd	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:54:00 - [415] Originally by: Harisdrop Why do you think wardecs are dumb? When I was in Empire I lived for the war dec. I knew that I was fighting for something. How old were you as a player? I bet you were not 1 month old and going up against a 2 year old player mono et mono (or your rifter Vs his HAC). Quote: EVE has become soft. I like being hard. No one is saying that Eve is soft, we are just pointing out that, for a few players, eve has become very lop-sided and could cause players to quit because of the acts of a few people having fun threatening, stealing and generally thinking that PvP involves popping players that have not yet got any real skills and are nothing more than cannon fodder for them. War dec'ing the griefers corp wont work because the griefer will dump their current corp for an NPC corp quicker than a single station courier mission takes to complete. Now you have an un-wardec'able player doing exactly the same thing with impunity, either that or they wont hang around your missions and just start griefing other players. The other thing, what hope does a 1 month old player in his own corp have to stop a 2 year old griefer in a HAC, nothing. War deccing the griefers wont do a thing to stop them, infact it just plays into their hands further by allowing them to shoot that 1 month old player without fear of concord killing them. ---- God gave us a brain, he also gave us a voice. Shame some people have yet to connect them.
Skeenee Al'Ramed	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:59:00 - [416] /disagree! We need wrecks to loot. amd i don't see why you guys should be that protected! Change game if you can't take the heat!
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:00:00 - [417] Originally by: BBQ War dec'ing the griefers corp wont work because the griefer will dump their current corp for an NPC corp quicker than a single station courier mission takes to complete. Now you have an un-wardec'able player doing exactly the same thing with impunity, either that or they wont hang around your missions and just start griefing other players. I dont see why more of the people supporting the griefers in this case dont understand the greifers are the real carebears not looking for a fight. If they wanted to fight people in pvp they would go jump people in low sec. They dont they just want to grief people. These arent pirates, they arent pvpers, they are just greifers. Its a bit of shame to see some (notably not most) eve pvpers defending these carebears in the name of Eve PvP. Since when is PvP about ruining a mission in high sec where you cant be shot.
Midnight Rayne	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:00:00 - [418] Originally by: Skeenee Al'Ramed /disagree! We need wrecks to loot. amd i don't see why you guys should be that protected! Change game if you can't take the heat! You can get wrecks too. It's called Ratting.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:01:00 - [419] Originally by: Skeenee Al'Ramed /disagree! We need wrecks to loot. amd i don't see why you guys should be that protected! Change game if you can't take the heat! Come out to 0.0 and grow some, instead of jumping people's missions who cant shoot back because its high sec.
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:02:00 - [420] Originally by: Skeenee Al'Ramed /disagree! We need wrecks to loot. amd i don't see why you guys should be that protected! Change game if you can't take the heat! Enough people will change game. Then strangely enough they won't be paying CCP. And CCP won't be able to pay for any devs. Or offices. Or servers. Then you'll have no wrecks.

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