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Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:31:00 - [541] Originally by: Oldgiffer nothing stops you from playing eve your way or me from playing mine. All it takes is a little effort. Sheesh. Hello. Hello. Is anyone in there? What's this thread all about? It's about people griefing high sec mission runners. That's stopping me from playing Eve "my way". It doesn't take "a little effort", there's no way of stopping this griefing.
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:34:00 - [542] Originally by: Oldgiffer Games like WOW you dont lose anything so many people suddenly realise they have no purpose. Like the miner who spends months mining so that he can get a bigger mining ship and then realises its all a waste of time(but wait they might release an even bigger mining ship). WoW always remind me of the day a friend of mine told me of an idea for an MMO. He would have a screen with a blue button, and the object of the game was to press the button repeatedly. When you had pressed a certain amount of times a number would appear in the corner of the screen. The more you pressed, the higher this number would rise. May sound crazy, but I actually think people would play that game just to see the number get higher and higher. /Ki
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:34:00 - [543] Originally by: Mollyanna Well then, at least I might actually ACCOMPLISH something instead of just spinning my wheels in frustration for 66days watching griefers, gankers and orejackers take away and ruin every iota of forward progress. My idea of "having an impact" on other players is socializing and working together with them, not ruining thier game experience to the point where they start looking for the exit. -M Well eve is a big place where you are free to make your own choices. Noone griefs me. I find it amazing you all find it so hard to avoid. You have war decs, can flagging and my personal recomendation for you pacifists move to a system that isnt a mission hub. Its not hard to avoid if you simply make a small effort instead of just whining on the forums.
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:36:00 - [544] Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Oldgiffer nothing stops you from playing eve your way or me from playing mine. All it takes is a little effort. Sheesh. Hello. Hello. Is anyone in there? What's this thread all about? It's about people griefing high sec mission runners. That's stopping me from playing Eve "my way". It doesn't take "a little effort", there's no way of stopping this griefing. Move to a less populated system, war dec, kill them when they loot your can, suicide gank them. Is your way of playing eve reliant on sitting in one system and refusing to adapt in any way to player interferance?.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:36:00 - [545] Originally by: Lock out Because then they go and steal the item required to complete the mission. GL finishing it and getting any LP like that. Suggested adaptation: don't accept missions where an item has to be returned to the agent, if there are scanners around. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
OldPueblo Gallente Defenders of Order	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:39:00 - [546] Originally by: Oldgiffer Originally by: OldPueblo Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Oldgiffer Most mission runners say they will simply leave. Go, noone will notice or care. You contribute nothing other than lag to the player community and you might aswell be playing a single player game. I think you've solved it there. Time for two shards. One for anything goes all lowsec or no sec grief and gank away. One where 0.5 or greater is actually safe and anyone who wants to go to 0.4 or lower for consensual PvP can. Less lag for all. People can play the way they want. Win - Win situation, no? Lol, nice. And leave the 24/7 gank PVP'ers to come up with their own ships and modules on that shard. That'll teach 'em to have blinders on. I think its you who dont understand eve. Me and almost every older player I know has done missions and still will do then from time to time. Most have second accounts who do all the industrial things that are needed. Most pvpers play the whole game not just the one in a little bubble where you shoot npcs in perfect safety. The level 4s getting more difficult would not destroy pvp. Alliances dont struggle to produce the things they need in 0.0 or to defend whats theirs. But you seem to forget they play eve as a multiplayer game. And you missed the part where many of those that run missions do plenty more then run missions, yet they can still acknowledge that the griefing is there. Generalizing again. And if you did missions and the completion of the mission was taken away from you by a griefer? Maybe you don't care, but then again you may not have a goal that surrounds getting your standing up. Or maybe you have far more time to devote to the game then some that choose to run some missions for whatever reason. Or access to 0.0 ratting that isnt crowded by others. There are plenty of legit reasons.
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:40:00 - [547] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Lock out Because then they go and steal the item required to complete the mission. GL finishing it and getting any LP like that. Suggested adaptation: don't accept missions where an item has to be returned to the agent, if there are scanners around. No way! they cant change their playstyle. Dont suggest something as difficult as that. TBH even if you fail a mission its not the end of the world. A lot of missions are just kill missions anyway.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:41:00 - [548] Originally by: Fink Angel Less lag for all. People can play the way they want. Win - Win situation, no? doesn't work. eve, quite simply put, is designed as a pvp game. the economy needs constant loss and turmoil in order to function, as there is no buyback. Also, eve is against 'shards' or trammael and felucca bull****. Its a game made by people with greater ideals for people with, quite effing honestly, greater ideals than catering to the lowest common denominator those who find eve too harsh can go elsewhere. lord knows there are many other games for them.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:42:00 - [549] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 07/12/2006 00:42:59 Originally by: Ki An WoW always remind me of the day a friend of mine told me of an idea for an MMO. He would have a screen with a blue button, and the object of the game was to press the button repeatedly. When you had pressed a certain amount of times a number would appear in the corner of the screen. The more you pressed, the higher this number would rise. May sound crazy, but I actually think people would play that game just to see the number get higher and higher. That game exists, and I was in the top 10 on the Knoram Realm once upon a time. I recall I had a level 80 Fighter/Organist or something like that. However, button-pushing is too much work, and it gets old soon. ProgressQuest eliminates even the button pushing. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:43:00 - [550] Edited by: Fink Angel on 07/12/2006 00:45:32 Originally by: Oldgiffer Move to a less populated system, war dec, kill them when they loot your can, suicide gank them. Is your way of playing eve reliant on sitting in one system and refusing to adapt in any way to player interferance?. I'm not going to move. If someone came and kept ***ting in your garden would you move house? War Dec? Never had the need to war dec, so not sure of the mechanism. First, doesn't it cost me money? Second, that's a corps Vs corps thing isn't it? What I need is a personal war dec, where I can declare a war person to person. Kill them? Well I'm in the middle of a LvL4 mission but I'll phone the Angel's bosses and see if they'd mind standing their troops down while I go and kill the griefer. It's the equivalent of having to tank sentries forced* on you. Somewhat one sided. Suicide Gank? I'm not going to lower myself to what I consider questionable borderline exploits too. Of all of that, what got me thinking the most promising is the idea of a "personal war dec". I might start a new thread on that some time! Edit: spelling
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:44:00 - [551] Edited by: Oldgiffer on 07/12/2006 00:44:11 Originally by: OldPueblo And you missed the part where many of those that run missions do plenty more then run missions, yet they can still acknowledge that the griefing is there. Generalizing again. And if you did missions and the completion of the mission was taken away from you by a griefer? Maybe you don't care, but then again you may not have a goal that surrounds getting your standing up. Or maybe you have far more time to devote to the game then some that choose to run some missions for whatever reason. Or access to 0.0 ratting that isnt crowded by others. There are plenty of legit reasons. Its not griefing if they are making a profit. If Im ratting in 0.0 and a hostile comes to take my npcs away from me I dont whine and call them a griefer. what makes this differnt? All mission runners have had it easy. Im glad its changed the rewards for level 4s are good with absolutely zero risk.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:45:00 - [552] Originally by: Mollyanna Well then, at least I might actually ACCOMPLISH something instead of just spinning my wheels in frustration for 66days watching griefers, gankers and orejackers take away and ruin every iota of forward progress. nobody wants to lose. Trouble is, few ever win. When you debase the value of loss and gain to insignificance, you end up with a game that - to a large portion of eve's playerbase - isn't fun to play. And the others? there are many games that cater to their expectations of being coddled. They're paying customers, after all. Heaven forbid someone deprives them of their god-given right to have private pockets own instanced pwnsauce.
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:45:00 - [553] Originally by: Guillame Herschel That game exists, and I was in the top 10 on the Knoram Realm once upon a time. I recall I had a level 80 Fighter/Organist or something like that. However, button-pushing is too much work, and it gets old soon. ProgressQuest eliminates even the button pushing. I suppose my assumption was correct then. /Ki
Ti anna Caldari Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:46:00 - [554] Why is deadspace a place that MWD's do not work? Could not the same "interference" render scanning and scan probes ineffective? Sounds like an easy fix to me. If you are in a deadspace, you are invisible to scanning and probes (at least you should be).
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:46:00 - [555] Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Oldgiffer Move to a less populated system, war dec, kill them when they loot your can, suicide gank them. Is your way of playing eve reliant on sitting in one system and refusing to adapt in any way to player interferance?. I'm not going to move. If someone came and kept ***ting in your garden would you move house? War Dec? Never had the need to war dec, so not sure of the mechanism. First, doesn't it cost me money? Second, that's a corps Vs corps thing isn't it? What I need is a personal war dec, where I can declare a war person to person. Kill them? Well I'm in the middle of a LvL4 mission but I'll phone the Angel's bosses and see if they'd mind standing their troops down while I go and kill the griefer. It's the euqivalent of having to tank sentries forced* on you. Somewhat one sided. Suicide Gank? I'm not going to lower myself to what I consider questionable borderline exploits too. Of all of that, what got me thinking the most promising is the idea of a "personal war dec". I might start a new thread on that some time! So basically you are saying you wont do a damn thing to change other than whine about it. Again nice tactics from the mission runners.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:46:00 - [556] Originally by: Fink Angel Of all of that, what got me thinking the most promising is the idea of a "personal war dec". I might start a new thread on that some time! basically, what you mean to say is, you're a lazy oaf? And how exactly is this the game's fault?
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:48:00 - [557] Originally by: Ti anna Why is deadspace a place that MWD's do not work? Could not the same "interference" render scanning and scan probes ineffective? Sounds like an easy fix to me. If you are in a deadspace, you are invisible to scanning and probes (at least you should be). Thats kind of against the spirit of the game, which generally does not call for 'instances' where you are entirely safe from other players. People running missions had always been scannable - just that with scan probes working a bit faster nowadays, it has become somewhat of a popular passtime to drop in on people thinking they're in some private pocket of their own little idaho. And thank god for that. Eve is not for the weak of heart, nor those wishing for single-player experience in a MMOG
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:52:00 - [558] Originally by: Oldgiffer So basically you are saying you wont do a damn thing to change other than whine about it. Again nice tactics from the mission runners. I'm saying my one prefered solution would be to have a personal war declaration where I could hunt him down to my dying days in any security system. Otherwise, no, I believe I am playing the game in one of the styles as intended. A mission runner in high sec should basically be an instanced pocket that other's can't enter. Take a look back at my post a little while back about the reason for Deadspace pockets. No one answered that, and I'll say again, I can't believe they came up with the whole idea of Deadspace just to stop people using MWDs.
MMXMMX Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:53:00 - [559] The agent offers me a job . ME ALONE . I can accept his job and solve his problem . He never ever told me that u and others where involved to and his secred agents ar not awere of any other pilots at the mission destination . If he was awere that the risk was bigger he would pay me more or he would never ever give this mission to me . When i read the mission briefing there is nothing in there that was speaking about the corperation wil be trying to steal your special delivery . Maiby CCP can make the agents aware of this new situation ??? 500 - Internal Error The server was unable to process your request. Support personel has been notified, no further action is needed.
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:55:00 - [560] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo basically, what you mean to say is, you're a lazy oaf? And how exactly is this the game's fault? I'm really not with you there! Lazy oaf? Well, yes , but I don't see where you got that from my post unless you're watching me on a webcam! I'm saying if I could war dec him "man to man" without it involving whole corps then that would be my preferred solution.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:58:00 - [561] Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 07/12/2006 01:00:14 Originally by: Avon Oh dear. Are the Hi-Sec mission runners having problems with their risk free ISK printing factories? The problem is nothing to do with the "griefers" (ie, other players also NPC'ing just like you in Hi-Sec space, oh the shame of it), but with the whole attitude that other people should not be able to get in the way of your solo gameplay. Well, frankly, suck it up - seriously. You choose to use the "obvious" agents in Hi-Sec space for the best reward? Well bud, this is the risk. As to the other players being griefers, are you serious? They aren't doing it to annoy you, they are doing it for the countless waves of NPC bounties being spawned for them in nice Hi-Sec systems, rather than having to take the risk of leaving hi-sec ... the same risk the mission runners are desperately trying to avoid. These "griefers" are just the same as the "mission runners", and that is what they hate. Avon, frankly your wrong on this and should know better. 0.0 makes much more ISK/hour than any amount of mission running ever will. There is less risk in making ISK in 0.0 then there is now in high sec. IMHO this is just another move by CCP to try and force players in to low sec and 0.0 that once again failed. Mission runners are not ISK making machines and never have been. The ISK making machines are out in 0.0 where the best ore, best rats, best complexes, and best missions have ALWAYS BEEN! To whine because the casual player does not want to rush out there is a waste of time. There are three major reasons for not going straigt from High Sec to 0.0. 1. Lack of time - (that one gets me the most) Activities in 0.0 to support the corp and alliance are time intensive. 2. Individuality - They dont want to go to 0.0 and have to work for some one else just so in the down time they can work for themselves. 3. Safety - No, not that! They are the member of a newbie corp and are happy but they get whacked everytime the go into low sec or 0.0. So they mine, mission, manufacture, and trade in high sec. Where do you get off telling them that they are wrong? They have the right to play the way they want with out being griefed. Using game mechanics to either agro or steal the mission objective without being able to gain any benifit other than causing some one else grief is just that grief. Now if they grabbed the mission item and offered to ransom it back... that would be pirating. To just steal it or agro the NPCs to keep the MR from completing the mission is griefing and needs to be petitioned. Face it CCP put in game mechanics that do not work for low sec. They broke it even more with the buff to idiot proof probes and now all the people that were moving to low sec to run missions are now moving back to high sec. If CCP really wanted players in low sec they would make it impossible to sustain a gate camp there. They would make some risk to pirates and gankers so that there really was a risk vs reward instead of a bunch of griefer that get thier rocks off killing everything they see for no reason other than they know they just ruined some ones day. So yeah, your wrong but I doubt CCP will correct it. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Maximillian Pele Caldari Jewel Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:00:00 - [562] So much anger....... Basically, there is only one thing that needs to be changed by CCP - items needed to complete missions must only be accessable to the mission runner, nor able to be destroyed by others. Why? Because the standing loss system inflicts on mission runners a penalty that no one else in EvE is subjected to. Get ganked by pirates = fine. Get ransommed by pirates = fine. Pirates steal your loot = fine. People salvage your wrecks = fine. People kill your npcs and take the bounties = fine. People aggro the npcs then leave = fine. Why fine? Because you can do exactly the same things outside of missions to ratters or anyone else. Hence mission running is now brought into line with other EvE activities. But no one else in EvE can be subjected to standing loss via the actions of another party. That is what is wrong and that is what needs to be fixed. Then we have parity, and mission runners have the same daily hassles as anyone else in EvE. In times of doubt I ask myself "What would BoB do?", and then do the opposite.
OldPueblo Gallente Defenders of Order	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:02:00 - [563] Originally by: Oldgiffer Its not griefing if they are making a profit. If Im ratting in 0.0 and a hostile comes to take my npcs away from me I dont whine and call them a griefer. what makes this differnt? All mission runners have had it easy. Im glad its changed the rewards for level 4s are good with absolutely zero risk. Go back and RRRREEEEEAAAAAADDDDDDDD!! This has all been discussed already. Time for me to repeat my post I guess: I love how people are missing most of the perfectly logical and common sense points brought up in this thread to simply say basically "STFU carebears here's an option that doesn't work that makes me happy. Screw you." I see sweeping generalizations and I can't believe those that use them actually think they are making a valid point. It's incredibly simple and I'm tempted to just spam this thread repeatedly with this post till everyone gets the point. Standings in this game impact many things, mainly industry. Industry drives the market, as in the cost of ships and modules. You can't PVP without ships and modules. * You can ONLY increase standings with an NPC corp by running missions. * It takes A TON of missions to increase your standings up to 8 which unlocks jump clones and gives nice refining/tax bonuses. * Gate camping with your alliance does not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * Pirating does not increase your standings with an NPC corp, so "joining them" and doing it too still does not increase your standings. * Bounty hunting does not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * Ratting does not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * Scanning people out in missions and taking their loot does not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * POS sieging does not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * Fleet ops do not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * Salvaging does not increase your standings with an NPC corp. * You can ONLY increase standings by running missions (did I say that already?). There are many more things that guess what... still don't increase your standings. Say it with me... you can ONLY increase standings by running a mission. Is the main point here becoming clear now? This issue is about standings being screwed over by griefers. Now for some responses to stupid recommendations: * Running missions in a group splits the money between the group and is VERY un-profitable. It also ties up others, for a mission that would otherwise require only one to finish, that could be running their own missions getting their own standings up and getting their own mission pay/bonuses. Or maybe they don't want to run missions at all but want to do something else. Missions should not require an investment of time from a group of people. I enjoy doing missions with friends, but not every mission. That is a lame recommendation. * Running missions in low-sec is not a fix for this high-sec issue because though you can shoot back, because unless I'm mistaken you will take a security hit for firing first. Which ironically means you have to run more missions to get your standing back up. The best part is I can imagine a mission-runner hating pirate trying to run missions to get his standing back up to enter a high-sec system continually getting screwed over by a greifer. Gee, I wonder if they'd be ***ed then? Oh by the way, you're running missions too. :p Mission runners are not all solo players, in fact I bet that most are not. Newbs however have to run missions to get rolling in the game. Those of you that say this isn't greifing truly care nothing for the EVE community. There are so many more points to refute, but I just lost track with all crap spewing in this thread.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:03:00 - [564] Originally by: MMXMMX The agent offers me a job . ME ALONE .??? you're playing a mmog, mate. you're never alone. thats what single-player games are for.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:07:00 - [565] People aggro the npcs then leave = not fine. Aggroing belt npcs = no threat Aggroing Mission NPC's = Probably dead of the missionrunner without action taken against the pirate. in highsec he would be dead while shooting at me, so should he if he can kill me trough npcs because he uses them like a weapon against me.
MMXMMX Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:07:00 - [566] Edited by: MMXMMX on 07/12/2006 01:13:51 Originally by: Maximillian Pele So much anger....... Then we have parity, and mission runners have the same daily hassles as anyone else in EvE. Cool deal but then we want the same rats in the belts to :) (The 0.0 rats) And the higher bounty rats in the missions to :) And the same mining belts to . And then give us the same daily hassles as anyone else in EvE. Hahhahaha . Lets just make it all 0.0 space . REMOVE empire space :) Or maiby not ? 500 - Internal Error The server was unable to process your request. Support personel has been notified, no further action is needed.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:10:00 - [567] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Mission runners are not ISK making machines and never have been. actually, if you look at the technical aspect of the game, that is precisely what mission farmers are. They are the most significant of all ISK faucets in the game, and the only one not prone to loss. 1) isk enters into the game through belt rats, which in 0.0 carry greater bounties, but also bring about a chance of loss to those who rat through pvp action/ambushes, thus keeping their income in relative check (risk vs reward) 2) trade routes operators have to trade in great commodity amounts in order to make money off of their sales, but if they screw up on demand or are out-sold before they have a chance to dump their commodities supply on the market, they've effectively lost money/tied it down in the commodity for extended and not easily determined period of time. 3) mission runners themselves face absolutely no penalty for ISK farming. they have no risk in high sec, their chances of losing ships have been further reduced by the HP increase. They alone, combined with introduction of freighters and increased overall playerbase are responsible for the roughly 20x inflation we've gone through between fall 04 and present day.. your best shot, svp?
MMXMMX Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:11:00 - [568] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Originally by: MMXMMX The agent offers me a job . ME ALONE .??? you're playing a mmog, mate. you're never alone. thats what single-player games are for. Dit i say i am in this game alone ? Or dit i say the agent offerd me a job ME ALONE ? 500 - Internal Error The server was unable to process your request. Support personel has been notified, no further action is needed.
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:12:00 - [569] I would just like to point out, The simple fact that this thread is 21 pages long, directly means there will be a fix for this problem. Advice from an eve vet #51.
sonofollo Caldari 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:14:00 - [570] the common thread here is peeps still refusing to play n the spirit of the game multiplayer Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw.

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