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BBQ Gallente Suicidal Tendencies Ltd	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:04:00 - [421] Originally by: Skeenee Al'Ramed /disagree! We need wrecks to loot. amd i don't see why you guys should be that protected! Change game if you can't take the heat! I have nothing wrong with people, like yourselves, scanning out my cans that I leave behind after a mission has been closed down. Hell, if you beat me to mine after I have closed a mission then I will not stop you looting and probably wont shoot you for it either if you are shown as having stolen from them (I deff wont if you ask first). What I do draw the line at are people coming into a running mission purely to cause havoc, steal the required mission loot and to grief. ---- God gave us a brain, he also gave us a voice. Shame some people have yet to connect them.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:05:00 - [422] OK soo you guys are worried that some griefer is attacking a level 1 mission pilot. I dont think the level 1 pilot would be targeted again. There would be no gain for the griefer with 1k rats. He probally would look for the Navy raven pilot. Soo it could be a smart griefer or some guy that wants to make some isk. If there is a level 4 mission agent runner getting a kestrel stealling you BS kills. Yeppers that is sooooo mean. Wait you are in a NPC corporation. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:07:00 - [423] Originally by: Fink Angel Originally by: Skeenee Al'Ramed /disagree! We need wrecks to loot. amd i don't see why you guys should be that protected! Change game if you can't take the heat! Enough people will change game. Then strangely enough they won't be paying CCP. And CCP won't be able to pay for any devs. Or offices. Or servers. Then you'll have no wrecks. You know what the people calling some of the PvE crowd out, do have a point about you ruing games by whining to make it easier for you to pve, and harder for them to PvP. But then again, the PvP crowd does the same thing...i guess its a circle of idiocy. This thread isnt about PvE v. PvP its about 1 thing, people should stop trying to turn it into the be all end all thread of us v. them and focus on the 1 thing at hand. Once again, does anyone know of way to stop that person from ruining the mission and causing a standing loss. I havent seen even 1 idea under current game mechanics that would work. That kinda tips me off that there is a problem.
BBQ Gallente Suicidal Tendencies Ltd	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:07:00 - [424] Originally by: Harisdrop OK soo you guys are worried that some griefer is attacking a level 1 mission pilot. I dont think the level 1 pilot would be targeted again. There would be no gain for the griefer with 1k rats. He probally would look for the Navy raven pilot. Soo it could be a smart griefer or some guy that wants to make some isk. If there is a level 4 mission agent runner getting a kestrel stealling you BS kills. Yeppers that is sooooo mean. Wait you are in a NPC corporation. But this is the thing. The gain for him is a kill on a kill board. They will keep doing it because its easy for them to do, no risk and even though the reward is small from the rats it gives them an ego boost and a feeling of being "the best player in eve" because they have found someone that they can kill. Most of the time they don't choose people that can fight back. ---- God gave us a brain, he also gave us a voice. Shame some people have yet to connect them.
Kerushi Caldari BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:08:00 - [425] what most of u ***** forget is that without carebears (miners/traders/builders/mission runners) ccp would have to shrink the server to beta size and move out of the new office and change to a dumptruck carebears make ur pvp gear, buy ur expensive 0.0 loot and some move out to 0.0 when grown up as some wish for carebears to leave the game, then u better find urself a new game aswell heh i played for months on end with 4 accounts mining in 0.0, only lost 1 bs cause i baited the wrong rats when a hostile showed up and couldn`t warp out and a indy to gate rats as i wasn`t paying attention i could make 1b in minerals in a weekend with a modest amount of time, mission running takes alot longer and **ty pay carebearing in 0.0 is 99% risk free if u pay attention to the designated channels, missions is hardly risk free playing with 4 accounts, i pay to be able to play alone and multiplay with others when i want/can/needed get ur head out of ur ass
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:09:00 - [426] Originally by: Harisdrop OK soo you guys are worried that some griefer is attacking a level 1 mission pilot. I dont think the level 1 pilot would be targeted again. There would be no gain for the griefer with 1k rats. He probally would look for the Navy raven pilot. Soo it could be a smart griefer or some guy that wants to make some isk. If there is a level 4 mission agent runner getting a kestrel stealling you BS kills. Yeppers that is sooooo mean. Wait you are in a NPC corporation. you know i just figured out your just trolling, nothing constructive at all. I asked you several times, for a "reasonable" solution to not loose standings in these situations and you dont have one. Can you not see that is a problem, there is no risk to the mission jumper, no what so ever, how is that a good game mechanic.
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:12:00 - [427] Well, griefers will grief just for grief's sake. That's why the risk vs reward thing gets borked, there isn't really a lot of reward in stealing mission-critical items just for fun unless you ransom them back to the owner. Some people need to be protected from griefing; specifically, newbies who don't know how to deal with it yet. I think griefing safeguards should be in place in the starting missions, but the rest of you are supposed to learn how to take care of yourself so no protection for you. -----
Mr dummy	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:13:00 - [428] Edited by: Mr dummy on 06/12/2006 20:17:15 Originally by: Harisdrop OK soo you guys are worried that some griefer is attacking a level 1 mission pilot. ... There would be no gain for the griefer with 1k rats. Horray! You finally understand: there's no gain to the griefer. That's what makes it griefing! Quote: I dont think the level 1 pilot would be targeted again. Except that this is exactly what has been happening. Read the patch notes. People have been running in on missions, grabbing aggro, stealing mission-specific loot (with little-to-no value to anyone but the mission runner), and running off.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:18:00 - [429] Originally by: Mr dummy Originally by: Harisdrop OK soo you guys are worried that some griefer is attacking a level 1 mission pilot. I dont think the level 1 pilot would be targeted again. There would be no gain for the griefer with 1k rats. Horray! You finally understand: there's no gain to the griefer. That's what makes it griefing! And yes, this is exactly what has been happening. Read the patch notes. People have been running in on missions, grabbing aggro, stealing mission-specific loot (with little to no value to anyone but the mission runner), and running off. Its just a fancy way to exploit something now with new game mechanics that were designed to catch safe sport huggers and used in explorations. I find it odd that this new scanning system was wanted so much by pvpers, that when they get it, they use it to go after those not wanting to pvp. . . thus quite pathetic.
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:19:00 - [430] Originally by: Serapis Aote I dont see why more of the people supporting the griefers in this case dont understand the greifers are the real carebears not looking for a fight. If they wanted to fight people in pvp they would go jump people in low sec. They dont they just want to grief people. These arent pirates, they arent pvpers, they are just greifers. Its a bit of shame to see some (notably not most) eve pvpers defending these carebears in the name of Eve PvP. Since when is PvP about ruining a mission in high sec where you cant be shot. Just quoting one of your posts, but you seem to be the best voice of reason in this thread. Well said. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:24:00 - [431] Originally by: BBQ Originally by: Harisdrop OK soo you guys are worried that some griefer is attacking a level 1 mission pilot. I dont think the level 1 pilot would be targeted again. There would be no gain for the griefer with 1k rats. He probally would look for the Navy raven pilot. Soo it could be a smart griefer or some guy that wants to make some isk. If there is a level 4 mission agent runner getting a kestrel stealling you BS kills. Yeppers that is sooooo mean. Wait you are in a NPC corporation. But this is the thing. The gain for him is a kill on a kill board. They will keep doing it because its easy for them to do, no risk and even though the reward is small from the rats it gives them an ego boost and a feeling of being "the best player in eve" because they have found someone that they can kill. Most of the time they don't choose people that can fight back. OK how many griefers have gone into level 1 missions? I did not mention killboards. Killboards are cool. No one is fighting anyone. They are shooting NPC. Why would a griefer shoot a 1k rat when they can kill a 400k rat. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:29:00 - [432] Originally by: Shemar Originally by: Serapis Aote I dont see why more of the people supporting the griefers in this case dont understand the greifers are the real carebears not looking for a fight. If they wanted to fight people in pvp they would go jump people in low sec. They dont they just want to grief people. These arent pirates, they arent pvpers, they are just greifers. Its a bit of shame to see some (notably not most) eve pvpers defending these carebears in the name of Eve PvP. Since when is PvP about ruining a mission in high sec where you cant be shot. Just quoting one of your posts, but you seem to be the best voice of reason in this thread. Well said. Thanks I rarely spam a thread like this, but this one really got me a bit worked up. As a pvper i really hate the true griefers. Most of the PvE crowd I run into dont mind getting blown up even at gate camps, they accept it as part of Eve, but these type of things really just **** people off for no real reason. Its a stupid game mechanic and should be fixed. Two bad things a jumper can do to ruin the mission and make in nearly unbeatable or completely unbeatable. 1) full room aggro. Really just a pain in the but, and for this there is 100% no recourse for the high sec mission runner while on the mission. A war dec 24 hours later is not going to save the mission. With full agro at the jump in age on a difficult level 4, most people even with a few friends are not completeing that mission. 2) taking the mission loot, or just blowing it up. Sure you get flagged. But in reality...and lets deal with reality the jumper most likely is not going down to the mission runner. The mission runner will most likely be dealing with the brunt of the agro on the mission and his window for killing you before you warp out is extremely miniscule. So in 99% of the cases that mission is a failure. Sure you could mission in a full gang and maybe stop this, but as has been mentioned before, CCP has not really put in a good system to encourage people to group on missions and share both rewards, and standings and LP, so the incentive to do is pretty low and will continue to be with the rewards so little. And the only problem i have with all this is that it is High Sec. The mission runner has no chance to shoot before the can is actually looted. And in the aggro instance, no chance to shoot at all. My only real thing left to say is CCP should fix it, either by simply saying this is bannable, or through a more realistic in game mechanic that at least gives the mission runner the chance to save the mission.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:29:00 - [433] Soo your all crying for the greater good not that your noobs. Seems pointless. Seems your putting alot of energy into something thats need to thin the flock. Good luck on your EVE time. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Antodias Puppets on Steroids iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:39:00 - [434] I'm afraid I have to agree with this. I am a pirate, and I am certainly not for making EVE soft and to be honest not so long ago I probably would have agreed with the criticisms made of the OP. But then I tried a mission since the Revelation patch... And the situation is laughable - Low sec missions are pointless, usually you have an Arazu running around the best systems and are ganked within the first minute of running the mission. High sec missions, while not as bad are still in no way worth the potential loss of a mission and griefing happens regularly; I don't see the point of why they do this but well... each to his own I guess. To sum up, as far as I'm concerned missions are currently broken.
Cerwyn Taraman Minmatar Phoenix Tech Industries	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:41:00 - [435] Originally by: Harisdrop Soo your all crying for the greater good not that your noobs. Seems pointless. Seems your putting alot of energy into something thats need to thin the flock. Good luck on your EVE time. Why do you continue to troll this thread? Thinning the flock is not smart business. And to those who were claiming 500k subscribers, last numbers I heard were 145k subscribers. It would be great if a dev could post some various stats such as out of those subscribers, how many have run at least 1 mission in the past week (out of those who have logged in of course). I'd be really curious to know that number, as well as how many people play in Empire space vs. 0.0.
Raquel Smith Caldari Freedom-Technologies Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:41:00 - [436] Originally by: Deikan Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: Raquel Smith I've ctrl+q'd (and would do it again) to save my ship Well, I guess we can ignore any opinion you may have as to what constitutes fair play then. Define Fair Play please... If for you, geting ganked 10 to 1 is fair play, then think your opinion doesn't count either. If someone CTRL-Q's during a 1v1 fight where it was tight all through the fight until the end and just as the person is about to lose all its hull it CTRL-Q's out, THAT's not fair... Everything else IMO, is. Oh, for the record it was a badger 2 against a raven, flycatcher, hawk and...a badger 2!
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:49:00 - [437] Originally by: Serapis Aote I asked you several times, for a "reasonable" solution to not loose standings in these situations and you dont have one. Hey, he's too busy being "hard" to be constructive.
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Titurius Sabinus	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:52:00 - [438] http://www.mmogchart.com/ Select the 70,000 - 700,000 option on left side. Eve is shown has 150,000 subscripers has of July 2006. Where the heck does that 500K number come from that people are throwing around? ------------------------------------- When the casual players go, the income will drop, and Eve will die. Simple as that. You childish gankers can't see past the end of your own noses
Mastin Dragonfly Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:53:00 - [439] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 06/12/2006 20:55:27 Originally by: Harisdrop Soo your all crying for the greater good not that your noobs. Seems pointless. Seems your putting alot of energy into something thats need to thin the flock. Good luck on your EVE time. The flock might become a hell of a lot thinner than you want, careful what you wish for. This griefing won't turn carebears into hardcore pvp'ers that you can enjoy a good fight with, they will be gone.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:58:00 - [440] I bet the issue will be resolved by CCP. They are probally working it over now. I hope NPC corporations players is in the subject line. Recourse for actions is the true scheme for EVE. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Zei Xeu	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:05:00 - [441] The answer to the question below is a term I have come up with called "Veteran Lock". It occurs in games when players who have been in the game longer have great advantages (not just advantages, not just knowledge but GREAT, MIGHTY OR HUGE advantages) over newer players of a game. Bad cases of veteran lock can single handedly destroy a game. The result of allowing long time players of to have large game mechanic advantages over newer players of a game mathematically spells the end of the game. No one plays a game forever so subscriptions decline. Discouraging new players from playing the game means those numbers will diminish (much less grow). Veterans who seek to inhibit new players seek the "Veteran Lock". Originally by: Lady Trade one question to all you uber-cool "kill the carebears" ppl: how exactly do you suggest that a new player EVER earn enough money to actually start PvPing? I mean you need a huge amount of cash if you wanna be able to risk loosing a BS in PvP and you WILL loose many BSes when you start out making your first experiences with PvP... so somewhere your logic is flawed unless your suggesting that all newbies go buy ISK somewhere... eve is already THE most newbie-unfriendly game ever created... i mean i was ganked in my effing newb-ship about 3h in to the game while completing a mission i got from my very first agent - that wasn't exactly a huge motivator to continue playing... if you now can't even fly a few missions to earn the money for you first frig without being griefed then i really am not amazed if a huge number of players simply stop playing after a few days. the only realistic way for a new player to earn enough money for a BS is mission running or mining (which is more boring then pong) so i really don't see the logic of you guys.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:06:00 - [442] Edited by: Plutoinum on 06/12/2006 21:09:07 Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Deikan Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: Raquel Smith I've ctrl+q'd (and would do it again) to save my ship Well, I guess we can ignore any opinion you may have as to what constitutes fair play then. Define Fair Play please... If for you, geting ganked 10 to 1 is fair play, then think your opinion doesn't count either. If someone CTRL-Q's during a 1v1 fight where it was tight all through the fight until the end and just as the person is about to lose all its hull it CTRL-Q's out, THAT's not fair... Everything else IMO, is. Oh, for the record it was a badger 2 against a raven, flycatcher, hawk and...a badger 2! I see that missions need to be playable. That's the point of this thread. But sorry, the risk to get ganked somewhere 5 vs. 1 is part of the game. It's your job to minimize the risk to run into that situation. Last time my covert ops got killed, I jumped into bubbles, tried to cloak and move out but had a bit lag, so I clicked twice, cloaked, decloaked and boom, 40 people killing my covert and pod, 100 mil isk gone...killmail cut off. So f***ing what? I knew it could happen. That's a part of eve. If I had been in a BS or hauler I wouldn't have logged either. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:07:00 - [443] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly The flock might become a hell of a lot thinner than you want, careful what you wish for. This griefing won't turn carebears into hardcore pvp'ers that you can enjoy a good fight with, they will be gone. Exactly. Some people have the singularly idiotic notion that ganking newbies (or "hardcore" carebears) will suddenly make them go "hey, this being in a pod is actually fun! I think I'll go live in 0.0 now!". What they'll actually do is say "screw this" and cancel their account.
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:07:00 - [444] Good lord what a mess... ... CCP, make a simple fix: Enter a mission deadspace area and you're fair game to the mission runner, period. If the 'runner aggros the intruder then it's PvP as normal, no CONCORD involvment. The intruder, if not in gang/corp/alliance, should not even be able to initiate a target lock... the mission runner would have to initiate a lock & engage (this to prevent 'autolock' griefing). If the intruder initiates action against the NPCs then they earn instant and complete aggro. Once the intruder is gone the NPCs return to their previous location, resume their previous state, then resume their action threads depending on the mission runner's current actions/location. Also: Disable the use of warp scramblers in deadspace (for all parties, including NPCs).
Changaroo State War Academy	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:09:00 - [445] Originally by: Tissa I think this is a real shame, it will totally kill the game for the casual player. I think what a lot of the posts in this thread is missing is consideration and respect for other people's play styles. Some people don't have the time to spend 14 hours a day playing eve and maybe get one or two hours a week so their corp and gaming options are limited, what they want from eve is to be able to log on and just kill some NPC ships and have some fun. All the I play eve in my sleep "hardcore" players can whine all you like about mission runners but where do you think all those lovely Navey Ravens etc come from? imo if you shoot a mission npc you should get royally concordonkend and have the npc re-spawn for the mission runner. I concur since I am one of those casual players. I have gone from 8-10 hours a day of playing but now with a job and a lot of other activites on my schedule I spend 4-6 hours a week in game. I play to relax because my work is a stressful hectic one. Don't give me crap about this being solely a PvP game. It caters by and large to PvP but CCP has stated many a time before (during the past 3 years) that this game is a game of many vocations. R&D, Manufacturer etc etc. I run missions and build/sell stuff for/to the PvP community. Takin my mission stuff prevents me from producing said stuff. :) Regards, Changaroo
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:10:00 - [446] When I started playing people where in huge ships. I thought I would never catch up to them. I think this game is not about skill points. I dont think this game is about PVE. Its about interaction. When you get ganked you scream in local and someone answers you. You now have more than you started with. Its a MMO and if you think EVE is about ISK your wrong! Maybe if you where not stuck doing missions 23/7 you might find that the new contract system might actually be worth having being used. ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:14:00 - [447] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Originally by: Harisdrop Soo your all crying for the greater good not that your noobs. Seems pointless. Seems your putting alot of energy into something thats need to thin the flock. Good luck on your EVE time. The flock might become a hell of a lot thinner than you want, careful what you wish for. This griefing won't turn carebears into hardcore pvp'ers that you can enjoy a good fight with, they will be gone. As someone has been stressing throughout this thread, the people griefing missions runners are the ones looking for the least possible challenge in this game. If they actually had to face a hardcore PvPer, the type that actually looks for fights, not easy victims, they'd run screaming like little girls. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
teeze	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:15:00 - [448] I have chosen to post to this in the hope that the Devs are taking note, and to add my voice to what seems the only solution. PASSWORD MISSION CRITICAL LOOT let me give my 2 isk on the other bits:- 1) aggro and run away Defence, fit better tanks... warp out and come back later, call your mates... Its just like playing hide and seek and someone yelling "He's over here" to your enemies.... Funny but a pain in the rear, No grief. 2) Warp in and take my kills Just warp out, let them take the aggro, warp back in and start killing the NPCs when THEY are aggrod. they complete the mission faster, closer to the storyline and reward, and my Fleet tempy. 3) Warp in and steeal my loot. Loot on the way.. and yes I know I cant on a L4, but if they are looting and I warp out... hey they get insta aggro from the rats, I warp back pick up a few tractors and salvage mods... thanks Mr Pirate. 4) steal my critical loot...... Griefer. no setup, action or choice can in any way allow me to defend this action, and the loot itself HAS NO VALUE If this is not addressed I do think that we will loose a lot of new and old players. I LIKE the fact people can now enter my missions, help, hinder, harass and generally be a pain. It introduces interaction to the solo player. but to completely destroy gameplay... nyada.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:16:00 - [449] First, I think scan probing as it currently stands is probably too easy and accurate for PvP purposes, let alone what is being discussed in this thread. That's considering it from both sides of combat probing: scanner and scanned. So, yes, a tweak to the accuracy parameters is probably needed. Second, I do not think you can tune the new system to make life substantially more difficult for those seeking to find missioners. It's simply inherent in the new ship probing system that missioners will be found. The reason is time. Accuracy, ultimately, boils down to time spent probing. If you're more accurate you find the target more quickly. So a tweak to accuracy sufficient that finding a mission runner is a serious pain would make the system useless for combat probing. Mission runners stay in a location for far longer than PvP groups shifting around a system do. So really talk of tuning the scan probing system beyond what might be needed for balancing it in PvP is besides the point. As to making ship scan probes useless in Empire: 1) Empire Wars 2) Low-Sec Piracy and Warfare 3) Factional Warfare Three reasons that can't credibly be done. So the issue here is that the mission mechanics may need some extra safe-guards. Most of the problem here seems to centre on mission-critical loot. So really, mission-critical wrecks need to be flagged as the mission-holder's property no matter who destroys the ship/structure that spawned them. Arguably 0.8 sec and above systems should have mission gates locked to all but the owner and his gangmates. I'm not right keen on that but I don't dismiss it. Besides that, what really needs to be done? Would those two steps be such a grave concession to 'carebearism'? I don't think so. Should missioners be found and be interfered with to the meaningful profit of those willing to do it? Yes, I do think they should be. It just needs a balance to be drawn and hopefully, however they do it, CCP can do this without spoiling the scan system for those who want to use it for PvP throughout the EVE cluster. Cosmo PS. I think there is something of an irony in that can-flagging itself is currently part of the problem here but that's by the by... The Star Fraction Recruitment
Myang Li	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:20:00 - [450] Originally by: Harisdrop When I started playing people where in huge ships. I thought I would never catch up to them. I think this game is not about skill points. I dont think this game is about PVE. Its about interaction. When you get ganked you scream in local and someone answers you. You now have more than you started with. Its a MMO and if you think EVE is about ISK your wrong! Maybe if you where not stuck doing missions 23/7 you might find that the new contract system might actually be worth having being used. I am sorry, WHAT??? so, we now have talk about contract systems?, local to help out an unflagged griefer in empire that used the rules to totally ruin a new players game and because the griefer is unflagged he can sit there and pull faces all day long because there is not a damn thing anyone can do about it. Your comments about taking revenge work fine in 0.4 or below, they wont work in empire. Stop torlling

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