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ScreamingLord Sutch	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:37:00 - [1141] Originally by: Ritualiztic Suizide Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Ritualiztic Suizide I really don't see how much this is happening. In the past 2 days i've run close to 30 missions all in low sec and not once did I have some one scan me out and drop in on my party. On top of sitting there running all the missions, I also go back and spend a bunch of extra time salvaging and looting every wreck so im a sitting target in my salvage ship. Nice...where are you doing this, my systems are well and truely over farmed LOL id like to invite you out but if anyone jumped in on a missions i was running i would have 2 corp members in ravens and tempests jumping in to help take out the trash. Yes, that would terrify the 3 command ships, hac and battlecruiser a gang used to gank mission runners.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:40:00 - [1142] Woah. Just... woah. And that's not even reading the thread, just looking at the post count. =P ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Aion Amarra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:58:00 - [1143] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Ritualiztic Suizide [LOL id like to invite you out but if anyone jumped in on a missions i was running i would have 2 corp members in ravens and tempests jumping in to help take out the trash. Good for you, at least you know how the game is played btw I feel that the phrase "trash" is a little subjective in this scenario Then, praytell, how exactly would you guys deal with Concord warping in right after and wtfburning your asses? The talk is STILL about mission griefing in highsec, and there being NO way to do something against the griefers. (That is, as long as the griefers are in an NPC corp, if they aren't you can always wardec, but that takes 24 hours to take effect, so not really viable, either.) ________ Capitalization is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off his horse." and "I helped my uncle jack off his horse." Help the horses, make proper use of that shift button.
Apollo Balthar Minmatar The Sausage Smuggling Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.08 23:46:00 - [1144] Originally by: Rheinkraft Ever get the feeling your going around in circles...... That's because you're too lazy to get your sec. up and come stir up secure space a bit ------------------------------------------------ WTS: tech2 clue
Ritualiztic Suizide Black Watch Legionnaires	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:54:00 - [1145] Edited by: Ritualiztic Suizide on 09/12/2006 00:56:26 Well if i were to suggest any real change then. Is make it anyone who warps into your mission area is fair game for attacking. Friends or Foe. you just have to choose who is the friend. Just make Concord deal with activities they see, at starbases, and gates, Maybe include asteroid belts in there as well. Other then that anywhere in high sec should be fair game for combat RS I Rather Die on My Feet Than Live On my Knees
Mack Dorgeans Camelot Innovations	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:09:00 - [1146] My fairly insignificant 2 cents... I'm losing at least one corp member from my admittedly small corp due to the ever-increasing PvE nerfs and now this. The fact is, EVE is a PvE game at least as much as it is a PvP one, maybe more. Alienating all the mission runners and carebears is a bad idea. I can understand wanting to encourage more PvP situations, but forcing it down people's throats in high sec is another matter altogether, especially when there's no real PvP intent in most of the cases -- it's just a new form of easy griefing going on. Really, if this game is all about PvP and that's always going to be the dominant theme as far as the devs are concerned, then what's the point of having high sec space at all?
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:29:00 - [1147] Originally by: Mack Dorgeans My fairly insignificant 2 cents... I'm losing at least one corp member from my admittedly small corp due to the ever-increasing PvE nerfs and now this. The fact is, EVE is a PvE game at least as much as it is a PvP one, maybe more. Alienating all the mission runners and carebears is a bad idea. I can understand wanting to encourage more PvP situations, but forcing it down people's throats in high sec is another matter altogether, especially when there's no real PvP intent in most of the cases -- it's just a new form of easy griefing going on. Really, if this game is all about PvP and that's always going to be the dominant theme as far as the devs are concerned, then what's the point of having high sec space at all? I have also lost corp members due to excess griefing (2 so far). They don't show up as account cancelations because most of those already trained characters become alternates for other players. When somebody's is going away they giveaway the character to anyone willing to pay the account from there on.
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2006.12.09 07:22:00 - [1148] this thread still going knowledge is power.... guard it well
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.09 07:35:00 - [1149] Edited by: Paladineguru on 09/12/2006 07:35:38 Originally by: Shiwhon Li And we also don't like it that WE can't fight back. In a high Sec Mission if somebody comes into our DS they can do anything they want to screw up the mission and we can't do anything to them since they aren't getting flagged like an ore thief would. I personally, just want it changed so that I can attack ANYBODY that drops into my mission's DS, just like it would be in low sec. Then let'em come. and crying. null heres a hint, move to low sec where you can gang and shoot them like you claim you have the juervos to do. as long as your shooting at him remember theyll be able to shoot back. and if thats the case why not just go to low sec :)
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.12.09 08:19:00 - [1150] If ever there was proof that "old timers" can still be utter tards, this thread delivers it. ---------------- Where are the scan probe BPOs?
Arondos Minmatar Old Timers Guild	Posted - 2006.12.09 08:46:00 - [1151] So when new players can't run missions to build up ISK so they can get to the point they can go to 0.0 and pvp and they cancel accounts then CCP will see it as a business issue and it will get fixed. Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.09 09:04:00 - [1152] a) CEOs can use tracking to track members therefore if someone doesnt log in for 2 months kick em out ( on corp tools) b) lets just go a PVE server and a PVP server obviously this is going the way of wow lets speed it up and be done with it These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.09 09:12:00 - [1153] Edited by: BurnHard on 09/12/2006 09:12:23 Is this thread over yet? CCP recognise it's a problem, too easy and are going to re-balance/fix scanning.
Beaty Swollocks	Posted - 2006.12.09 10:47:00 - [1154] Edited by: Beaty Swollocks on 09/12/2006 10:47:54 Originally by: Miss Overlord b) lets just go a PVE server and a PVP server obviously this is going the way of wow lets speed it up and be done with it Yet another pointless post by you, i have never said anything before but you keep ceaseing to amaze me with your stupidness aragonce and pointless posts.
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:15:00 - [1155] Tissue? ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:50:00 - [1156] Edited by: welsh wizard on 09/12/2006 11:50:46 It is stupid that they're unable to do anything about it tbh. If people warp into belts and steal their stuff they should be fair game for the npc'er without Concord intervention. edit: Aren't they already? I thought looting someones can flagged them for 15 minutes or something? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:12:00 - [1157] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 09/12/2006 11:50:46 It is stupid that they're unable to do anything about it tbh. If people warp into belts and steal their stuff they should be fair game for the npc'er without Concord intervention. edit: Aren't they already? I thought looting someones can flagged them for 15 minutes or something? Yes the npcers can do exactly the same as a miner can. The only difference is the aggro problems and mission critical loot. The aggro system is currently broken in my opinion since you can fight one spawn at a time, but imagine the crying if they fixed that. Pretty much the carebears have got their way though. They have managed an unprecidented whine on the forums about this and CCP are running to their rescue. It never ceases to amaze me the double standards in the way player groups are treated by both customer support and game balancing. Perhaps the lesson here is that if a patch nerfs your style of play just get all your friends and alts to come on the forums and spam a 40 side post and CCP will cave to your demands.
Xavier Raines	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:16:00 - [1158] Originally by: Oldgiffer Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 09/12/2006 11:50:46 It is stupid that they're unable to do anything about it tbh. If people warp into belts and steal their stuff they should be fair game for the npc'er without Concord intervention. edit: Aren't they already? I thought looting someones can flagged them for 15 minutes or something? Yes the npcers can do exactly the same as a miner can. The only difference is the aggro problems and mission critical loot. The aggro system is currently broken in my opinion since you can fight one spawn at a time, but imagine the crying if they fixed that. Pretty much the carebears have got their way though. They have managed an unprecidented whine on the forums about this and CCP are running to their rescue. It never ceases to amaze me the double standards in the way player groups are treated by both customer support and game balancing. Perhaps the lesson here is that if a patch nerfs your style of play just get all your friends and alts to come on the forums and spam a 40 side post and CCP will cave to your demands. Well the Amarr whiners put up a 100 page whine post and all they got was a "we will look into it someday. Until then, go pew pew yourself."
Oldgiffer Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:45:00 - [1159] Originally by: Xavier Raines Well the Amarr whiners put up a 100 page whine post and all they got was a "we will look into it someday. Until then, go pew pew yourself." Exactly my point. The pirates have been nerfed numerous times but their protests are always ignored. For the pvp comunity how long did we wait for them to fix the awful chance based jamming? or stabs?. All other parts of the community learn to adapt anc change their tactics. All a carebear mission runner has to do is cry really loud and in comes the devs to repair their risk free bubble. I cant be the only one that finds it a little dissapointing to see the game changes dictated by whiners. I hope the patch on tuesday doesnt rebalance the probes too much in the mission runners favour.
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:48:00 - [1160] Originally by: Miss Overlord b) lets just go a PVE server and a PVP server obviously this is going the way of wow lets speed it up and be done with it Heh, not that I support that, but just seeing how fast you'd be without a server if that happened, it might be worh it... ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
teh brandy	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:57:00 - [1161] 2 long , didnt read anything but the first page poor carebears cant mission ? oh noes.. move to low-sec and fight griefers, morons.. --- 800k sp, day first - caracal, day third - ferox gj ccp
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:59:00 - [1162] As for high-sec, my opinion (in case anyone should care) is: Scanning down mission runners? That's ok. No problem with it really. Scan probing in general has been made TOO easy compared to before, but that's another discussion. The problem is what a potential griefer can do when he gets into the mission area. 1. He can't shoot you, so no direct danger. 2. He can steal your kills. Nice guy. He's helping you on the mission and you earn your LP faster. 3. He can steal your loot. Who cares? Mission loot is crap anyway. 4. He can salvage your wrecks. Let him. You'll get more next mission. In number 3, you even get aggro on him so you can shoot him if you want. There are however 3 grief scenarios: 1. Griefer warps in, shoots mission objective and takes the mission item. The mission runner has absolutely NO defence against this one, which is why I would classify it as griefing. 2. Griefter warps in and steal the mission item from your kill. It could be said that you can then shoot him, but first of all, he can just warp out immediately, and secondly, you risk blowing up the mission item. Again, this is a tactic that the mission runner has NO realistic possibility of avoiding, which is why I would classify it as griefing. 3. Griefer jumps in (preferably while you're scrambled by NPC's), quickly aggro all spawns and warps out. The mission runner is either killed or has to warp out (if he's lucky). Again, there is absolutely NO defence against this, which is why I would classify it as griefing. If there is a realistic defence against something, or if it is of relative minor consequence (as in the first 4 cases above), it is in my book not griefing. If (as in the last 3 cases above) the mission runner has no defence against something of major consequence, then it's griefing and should not be possible. Especially in grief scenario #3, I would also like to bring up the beloved 'Risk vs. Reward' argument so much used by the griefer side. Where is the risk for the griefer???? Huge possible reward, and no risk at all. Unless you admit to being hypocritical, you should be all up in flames AGAINST this one!
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:04:00 - [1163] Originally by: Oldgiffer Yes the npcers can do exactly the same as a miner can. The only difference is the aggro problems and mission critical loot. The aggro system is currently broken in my opinion since you can fight one spawn at a time, but imagine the crying if they fixed that. With that I agree, it's not the stealing of regular loot that bugs me, that's part of the game, it's the use of game mechanics against the mission runner. As for the aggro system, I'd love to see them change the missions so that the whole room aggroes you once you are in, and of course re-balance how many NPCs are in a room. Missions that last less (with proportionately less rewards) would also go a long way towards 'fixing' the griefing issue, both by making the mission runner a less easy target and by minimising the cost of losing a single mission. Originally by: Oldgiffer Pretty much the carebears have got their way though. They have managed an unprecidented whine on the forums about this and CCP are running to their rescue. It never ceases to amaze me the double standards in the way player groups are treated by both customer support and game balancing. Perhaps the lesson here is that if a patch nerfs your style of play just get all your friends and alts to come on the forums and spam a 40 side post and CCP will cave to your demands. That is one way to see it. Perhaps another is that this change affects a large part of the EVE player base and it affects them to such a degree that the game is not playable for them any more. What people keep failing to understand is that for most PvEers that are not new to the game, the gamestyle is a choice based on perosnal preferences and has nothing to do with lack of skills or capability to PvP. It's not a matter of making people PvP, CCP has been trying to do that for years, failing miserably. Those that don't care to will simply leave if forced to do it too often and the financial consequances of that would be felt by everyone. I have seen people claim that EVE is so popular and succesful because it allows non concensual PvP. Guess again. Look at the population spread and preferred play styles. It is in fact that EVE is so popular because it has areas with great rewards for those that are ok with non consensual PvP and areas with less reward but a great degree of safety for those that just want to have a calm evening with their firends. A quick examination of the populations spread between Empire and 0.0/low-sec will easily tell you which group is dependant on the other's subscriptions to keep 'their' gamestyle going. Looking at how much of the EVE content is inaccesible to the emire dwellers, even though they are the vast majority of players, will also tell you who pays for CCP to keep working on shiny new toys, most of which are either useless or inaccesible to the empire PvEer, especially the solo player. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Xavier Raines	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:07:00 - [1164] Originally by: Oldgiffer Originally by: Xavier Raines Well the Amarr whiners put up a 100 page whine post and all they got was a "we will look into it someday. Until then, go pew pew yourself." Exactly my point. The pirates have been nerfed numerous times but their protests are always ignored. For the pvp comunity how long did we wait for them to fix the awful chance based jamming? or stabs?. All other parts of the community learn to adapt anc change their tactics. All a carebear mission runner has to do is cry really loud and in comes the devs to repair their risk free bubble. I cant be the only one that finds it a little dissapointing to see the game changes dictated by whiners. I hope the patch on tuesday doesnt rebalance the probes too much in the mission runners favour. I agree with you 100%. In fact, I got into an argument with Mission Runners on EvE's VN boards about how they shouldn't expect to have 100% safe PvE areas to make unlimited amounts of isk without any interference. The great thing about EvE is those areas do not really exist and everything in the game has some form of risk in it. However, that idea is incomprehensible to them as they expect to be able to play this game in a bubble of complete safety while making mountains of Isk.
Bible Dave Serial Killers	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:07:00 - [1165] Iv been playing this game a number of years and this is the first time iv ever felt like calling it a day. When I bought eve i read :- Imerse yourself in the vast virgin territory of EVE where power is the Holy Grail and the ultimate aphrodisiac. Concieve a new life withought bounderies, where MURDER, PLUNDER, BETRAYAL and delusions of grandure will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin, The galaxy is yours if you have the BRAINS, STREINGTH and CUNNING to succeed. when did the brains and cunning bit get taken out of the game and replaced with absolute safety and moronic npc killing repetativness. People ammassing massive wealth in absolute safety and the minute there game play style get threatened theres a 41 page post and the game gets changed. PVP based players are a dying breed and if something does not get done soon they all will be gone and the morons from WOW will have won the eve universe. Its the risk element that keeps the game alive for alot of us and this is steadily dying out of the game. Please CCP dont remove any more.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:18:00 - [1166] Edited by: Kerfira on 09/12/2006 13:20:07 Originally by: Bible Dave ... PVP based players are a dying breed and if something does not get done soon they all will be gone and the morons from WOW will have won the eve universe. Its the risk element that keeps the game alive for alot of us and this is steadily dying out of the game. Please CCP dont remove any more. This is the usual PvP fanatic point of view, which is pretty senseless and egotistical tbh (please note that I'm a PvP'er in some of my incarnations). The thing I really can't understand is this: What possible harm does it do the PvP group that there are some people who play EVE in another way??? When I'm out in 0.0, the people in empire don't exist. They're not where I am, so I can't shoot them. Fair enough, there are plenty of other people to pewpew. The empire dweller don't take anything from my gaming experience, since in a way he's 'not in my universe'. The only ones who are against this situation are the sad individuals who're out to ruin other players game experience (note that this is not the same as playing AGAINST other players), and who can't stand the thought that there are some people who they can't annoy. Pretty pathetic in my view if that's why you play.... Note: PvP is all alive and well. Join ASCN, BoB, AAA, LV, Goons etc, and you'll see so.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:20:00 - [1167] Look the answer has been here for a pretty long time - you jump into my mission unauthorized, unganged, you get flagged and I'm free to blow you away. Would it stop this happening? No. Would it eventually stop it? Yes - since where there is the opportunity to bait and kill people, corps will be drawn there. The Lvl 4 agent systems will become awash with people looking to bait those who try to kill missioners and kill them. Also - mission critical loot - really should drop in a secure can available only to one player.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:28:00 - [1168] About mission runners 100% safe argument: Mission Runners have never been 100% safe, we all know it. They can be ganked, especially when returning from a mission in bad shape with half hull an no more cap left. They could gain 5M in a mission, but they are risking a 1B faction fitted BS in their way in and out, with no hope of insurance pay whatsoever. And if wardeked, no concord help either. It's been like that for ages.
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:30:00 - [1169] Originally by: Bible Dave when did the brains and cunning bit get taken out of the game Apparently when you started playing. Originally by: Bible Dave People ammassing massive wealth in absolute safety and the minute there game play style get threatened theres a 41 page post and the game gets changed. Massive wealth? Have you ever tried to amass anything doing high-sec missions? 0.0 is 10 times more profitable, even when you count all the losses you would take. Those that want to make the most money are in 0.0 already, paying alliances so they can farm complexes, NPCs and 0.0 missions with more impunity that any empire dweller. Staying in Empire is a choice that has nothing to do with rewards, definitely no 'easy' rewards. When did hard work become a not acceptable way to make ISK? EVE is great because you can make ISK either with risk or with hard work. Originally by: Bible Dave PVP based players are a dying breed and if something does not get done soon they all will be gone and the morons from WOW will have won the eve universe. Its the risk element that keeps the game alive for alot of us and this is steadily dying out of the game. Please CCP dont remove any more. Do you even know what you are talking about? I don't know if PvPers are a dying breed, but they are certainly not enough to keep CCP afloat by themselves. You still have your game because there are people paying for it just to have the occasional casual PvE evening with it. And how exactly is other people not wanting to play the way you do removing the "risk element that keeps the game alive" for you? Are you somehow claiming that you can't find enough risk on EVE? Or maybe you are only interested in others having the risk while you grief them with absolute impunity? ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Xavier Raines	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:31:00 - [1170] Edited by: Xavier Raines on 09/12/2006 13:34:37 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 09/12/2006 13:20:07 Originally by: Bible Dave ... PVP based players are a dying breed and if something does not get done soon they all will be gone and the morons from WOW will have won the eve universe. Its the risk element that keeps the game alive for alot of us and this is steadily dying out of the game. Please CCP dont remove any more. This is the usual PvP fanatic point of view, which is pretty senseless and egotistical tbh (please note that I'm a PvP'er in some of my incarnations). The thing I really can't understand is this: What possible harm does it do the PvP group that there are some people who play EVE in another way??? When I'm out in 0.0, the people in empire don't exist. They're not where I am, so I can't shoot them. Fair enough, there are plenty of other people to pewpew. The empire dweller don't take anything from my gaming experience, since in a way he's 'not in my universe'. The only ones who are against this situation are the sad individuals who're out to ruin other players game experience (note that this is not the same as playing AGAINST other players), and who can't stand the thought that there are some people who they can't annoy. Pretty pathetic in my view if that's why you play.... Note: PvP is all alive and well. Join ASCN, BoB, AAA, LV, Goons etc, and you'll see so. Nobody really cares how you play EvE. What people have a problem with is the expectations of Mission Runners who want to turn this game into WoW or DAOC where there are "PvE" areas and "PvP areas" and each are seperate from each other. What makes EvE a great MMO and different from other games on the market is that you can do anything but there can also be consequences and risks. In fact, I doubt most people here really care whether PvErs {Mission Runners} get to play in 100% safety or not. However, since that was changed with the patch and all of them are whining about it on the forums, it annoys people and brings attention to the subject. You see, it isn't just "the people who want to ruin another's game experiance" who are against this. It is also a good majority of the playerbase who do not want to see the spirit of EvE changed into another WoW. That is the real reason people are being so vocal and harsh towards the complainers.

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