EVE Search - Allegations of Dev Misconduct

All Channels

Corporation, Alliance and Organization Discussions

Allegations of Dev Misconduct

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 25 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)

kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:26:00 - [1] CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. Continuing to post information from third party sites, spamming the forums, breaking the forum rules, etc. will not speed along the investigative process. Post discussion in this thread and please follow the forum rules. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

vile56 Nubs. Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:27:00 - [2] Edited by: vile56 on 31/01/2007 01:24:10 for once i get a first will you be the one who tells us the verdict? or will this be the norm gm action only gm and said person get to know?
tropic126	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:27:00 - [3] Thank you.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:27:00 - [4] So does that mean there might be a job opening I can fill? ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
TraxusIV GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:28:00 - [5] Thank you for the official response
Foodchain GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:28:00 - [6] Thank you. An official response is all that was needed.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Foodchain Thank you. An official response is all that was needed. Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Herberge GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:29:00 - [8] Thank you for acknowledging the question rather than blanking us out. Cheers to you.
Horse Plops GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:29:00 - [9] Thanks, I think a lot of us were just full of nerd rage and wanted to know you guys were going to look into it
Kyguard Fire Mandrill Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:30:00 - [10] I have faith in the CCP employees not to abuse their position in the game. Just about everything that needs to be said. And if my faith is misplaced, I'm sure the culprit would be caught. - WeComeInPeace Video
Charleton Heston Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:30:00 - [11] Fair enough. Thank you for your response.
Nova Cygni GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:30:00 - [12] Big ups, one love, etc.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Foodchain Thank you. An official response is all that was needed. Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? How dare you bring logic to these forums! Sadly, if the truth is not what some want to hear, they will scream a lie until it becomes the truth. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Wraith Konnan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Wraith Konnan on 31/01/2007 01:28:09 woop woop ----- DRAMA
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:31:00 - [15] the rumors were true??!! GIVE ME BACK MY EXCLAMATION MARK PORTRAIT :( :( :( :( :( :(
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Foodchain Thank you. An official response is all that was needed. Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? When has Eve dirty laundry ever been done in private... Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
Cyrus Ildemar GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:31:00 - [17] Thank you. Accordingly, we're done now. When you're finished with your investigations, please make the results public, as much as is possible. Justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done.
Eronarn Palazzo Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:31:00 - [18] Thanks Kieron :) Next time anything like this happens, we'll try and do it in a less annoying way. Unfortunately, cooler heads did not prevail in deciding what to do, and so this unfortunate forum spam occurred. Hopefully, the involved people will realize that CCP WILL read their allegations if done in a more private manner, though it might take time to do so.
Estarriol Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:32:00 - [19] If there is in fact no misconduct found, it would seem fair to request that the Devs publicly clear the alleged parties, in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. Quote: ProphetGuru > It was a Wasp!

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:32:00 - [20] If such an issues comes up, the quickest way to get our attention is email. Spamming the forums will just get you banned. ___ Email Us \| Forum Rules \| Our Website EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER

krystal eyes	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:33:00 - [21] Thank you, ccp. All we need now to be entirely happy is an announcement that any truth or falsity to the accusations of dev misconduct (that might effect the political sandbox you have created) will be announced here.
Ouroboron Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:33:00 - [22] snip Please don't flame -Eldo Just one of Remedial's kamikaze fighter pilots, dying for the Swarm.
Innominate GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? It would be nice if doing that would get any response.
Horse Plops GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:33:00 - [24] Edited by: Horse Plops on 31/01/2007 01:31:01 Ok men, back to destroying LV (don't think we forgot about you, you little rascals )!
Wraith Konnan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:33:00 - [25] Could you post a summary of what happened with regards to the termination of employment (obviously within legal bounds)? I was under the impression that the issue "faded away". ----- DRAMA
tropic126	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Estarriol If there is in fact no misconduct found, it would seem fair to request that the Devs publicly clear the alleged parties, in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. Sounds good.
sb404 Caldari Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:34:00 - [27] Is this where I post that I have chatlogs with Goonswarn evoking their "pocketed" GM as well, or are we just bashing on BoB and I should create my own thread? just curious. When you live in a glass house, careful not to throw stones around. ------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
Apsa1ar Ex Coelis	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:34:00 - [28] Edited by: Apsa1ar on 31/01/2007 01:34:04 Is posting information obtained from third party sites forbidden? If so, that rule should be memorialized somewhere. I've reviewed the rules, and it doesn't appear to be against the rules. I hope that, in the future, all posts containing information from third party sites, such as private corporation and alliance forums, are also deleted, and with alacrity similar to that shown tonight.
Llynn Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Eldo Davip If such an issues comes up, the quickest way to get our attention is email. Spamming the forums will just get you banned. well, this only took like half an hour, I've been waiting on some petitions for 4 days, so that one's a gamble :) Good to see an official statement though
Wraith Konnan Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Estarriol If there is in fact no misconduct found, it would seem fair to request that the Devs publicly clear the alleged parties, in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. I like this idea as it would provide closure in some shape or form and wouldn't allow the issue to just disappear. It would have to be a legally binding statement though, something that commits CCP to in non internet-spaceship terms. ----- DRAMA
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Cyrus Ildemar Thank you. Accordingly, we're done now. When you're finished with your investigations, please make the results public, as much as is possible. Justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done. And if the end result is that all these allegations are lies, will you and others apologize publicly for what has happened? I'm all for hearing about this, as I'm sure everyone else is, but if one side has to reply in public, then all sides should. Given what we were told about the monitoring of CCP activities (back when the officer scorpion incident happened), and how in almost every OMG SEED MORE T2 BPOs thread, a dev has stated they actively monitor the amount of T2 bpos, I'd be rather surprised if the accusations don't all end up being wrong. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Microsoft Sam Red Army Inc	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:35:00 - [32] ccp owes the community nothing, if you want ccp to tell us what their employees do youre going to have a long hard fight on your hands. and seriously goons, you need to learn how you handle things in eve.. we dont spam the e-o forums with DEVDEVDEV every 2 seconds because someones we all know already. this is like so old news.
Crivens GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Estarriol If there is in fact no misconduct found, it would seem fair to request that the Devs publicly clear the alleged parties, in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. I heartily second this, and will add the addendum that if the reverse is found, you will announce publicly that justice has been carried out.
Widebrant GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:36:00 - [34] I am pleased to hear that CCP is looking into these incidents, and look forward to the conclusion of the investigation. The published information, if accurate, amounts to a serious breach of trust.
Vervel Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Eronarn Palazzo Thanks Kieron :) Next time anything like this happens, we'll try and do it in a less annoying way. Unfortunately, cooler heads did not prevail in deciding what to do, and so this unfortunate forum spam occurred. Hopefully, the involved people will realize that CCP WILL read their allegations if done in a more private manner, though it might take time to do so. get out
Welfare State GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:36:00 - [36] Edited by: Welfare State on 31/01/2007 01:34:07 Thank you. I was distressed to hear that some CCP members may have provided certain players with an unfair advantage and I honestly hope this is not the case.
Tau Amari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:37:00 - [37] Originally by: sb404 Is this where I post that I have chatlogs with Goonswarn evoking their "pocketed" GM as well, or are we just bashing on BoB and I should create my own thread? just curious. When you live in a glass house, careful not to throw stones around. Post em please.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:37:00 - [38] Kugutsmen is hilarious. He makes up a ton of rubbish then gets people to sign up to his forum and finally gets them to pay him isk to give them more rubbish and then even more isk to legitimise their accounts. So a known hacker now has: Your eve character. Your ip. Your email. Your login and password that you used on his site. A nice cookie from your pc. If you are going to sign up to the forum or give him isk just make sure that you use a completely secure ip, email and DO NOT use a login or password that you use ANYWHERE else. Otherwise, if you're forums get hacked and 6 months down the line kugutsmen/anthonyz/rycar is posting absolute tosh about peeps in your alliance then don't bother wondering why ;) dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Llynn Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Apsa1ar Is posting information obtained from third party sites forbidden? If so, that rule should be memorialized somewhere. I've reviewed the rules, and it doesn't appear to be against the rules. I hope that all posts containing information from third party sites, such as private corporation and alliance forums, are similarly deleted. no, rules say they ARE allowed, but the rest of the thread still has to follow the normal rules
Carnap	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:37:00 - [40] Originally by: sb404 Is this where I post that I have chatlogs with Goonswarn evoking their "pocketed" GM as well, or are we just bashing on BoB and I should create my own thread? This word-- I do not think it means what you think it means.

kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:37:00 - [41] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Foodchain Thank you. An official response is all that was needed. Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? I would be the person to send concerns to, my e-mail address is: [email protected]. Keep in mind that I'm not online 24/7, so I do request a small indulgence of time to respond. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Tau Amari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:37:00 - [42] Originally by: Eronarn Palazzo Thanks Kieron :) Next time anything like this happens, we'll try and do it in a less annoying way. Unfortunately, cooler heads did not prevail in deciding what to do, and so this unfortunate forum spam occurred. Hopefully, the involved people will realize that CCP WILL read their allegations if done in a more private manner, though it might take time to do so. Jita, Veldspar. Now.
krystal eyes	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And if the end result is that all these allegations are lies, will you and others apologize publicly for what has happened? Yes. Unreservedly, for myself.
Crivens GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:39:00 - [44] Originally by: krystal eyes Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And if the end result is that all these allegations are lies, will you and others apologize publicly for what has happened? Yes. Unreservedly, for myself. seconded.
Charleton Heston Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:39:00 - [45] Originally by: Crivens Originally by: Estarriol If there is in fact no misconduct found, it would seem fair to request that the Devs publicly clear the alleged parties, in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. I heartily second this, and will add the addendum that if the reverse is found, you will announce publicly that justice has been carried out. Yea, this goes for me aswell.
sb404 Caldari Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Carnap Originally by: sb404 Is this where I post that I have chatlogs with Goonswarn evoking their "pocketed" GM as well, or are we just bashing on BoB and I should create my own thread? This word-- I do not think it means what you think it means. I know what it means. arouse: call forth (emotions, feelings, and responses); "arouse pity"; "raise a smile"; "evoke sympathy" I will have the logs when I log at home tonight. ------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:41:00 - [47] I'm sure the outcomes of the investigation will be well received by the whole community, including BoB. Blog
thoradh AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:41:00 - [48] Originally by: DB Preacher Kugutsmen is hilarious. He makes up a ton of rubbish then gets people to sign up to his forum and finally gets them to pay him isk to give them more rubbish and then even more isk to legitimise their accounts. So a known hacker now has: Your eve character. Your ip. Your email. Your login and password that you used on his site. A nice cookie from your pc. If you are going to sign up to the forum or give him isk just make sure that you use a completely secure ip, email and DO NOT use a login or password that you use ANYWHERE else. Otherwise, if you're forums get hacked and 6 months down the line kugutsmen/anthonyz/rycar is posting absolute tosh about peeps in your alliance then don't bother wondering why ;) dbp Proof or STFU. > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! >
Carnap	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:43:00 - [49] Quote: I know what it means. arouse: call forth (emotions, feelings, and responses); "arouse pity"; "raise a smile"; "evoke sympathy" I will have the logs when I log at home tonight. I'm going to evoke you via evemail to continue our rousing discussion of your poor choice of words.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:43:00 - [50] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 01:41:41 Originally by: thoradh Proof or STFU. No need for proof, just think before using anything that can be traced while on that website. It's at your own risk if you don't and if peeps aren't careful then it's your loss not mine. I know my conscience is clear having passed on this information. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Coasterbrian Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Estarriol ....in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. Because BoB wouldn't know anything about smear campaigns.
Sinze	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:45:00 - [52] Originally by: DB Preacher kugutsmen/anthonyz/rycar rycar isn't anthonyz, he's a completely different person. He got his account hijacked by him a couple of times though.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:46:00 - [53] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 01:43:21 Originally by: Sinze Originally by: DB Preacher kugutsmen/anthonyz/rycar rycar isn't anthonyz, he's a completely different person. He got his account hijacked by him a couple of times though. Might wanna double check up on that one ;) A quick google search can do wonders for your information in the real world. If it isn't antonyz himself then it is someone very close to him ;P dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Kane Ululani REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Estarriol If there is in fact no misconduct found, it would seem fair to request that the Devs publicly clear the alleged parties, in light of the intense smear campaign which has been conducted on these forums. Will you do the same for Xirt?
sb404 Caldari Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Carnap Quote: I know what it means. arouse: call forth (emotions, feelings, and responses); "arouse pity"; "raise a smile"; "evoke sympathy" I will have the logs when I log at home tonight. I'm going to evoke you via evemail to continue our rousing discussion of your poor choice of words. If you must know, I used that word carefully, since it fit the situation perfectly. It was because some people where "offended" by some ruffian talk in the local channels and called upon their GM for sympathy and a "friendly" warning to the pilots in question. Funny, GMs took an hour and a half to fix my issue with lens being stuck in POS guns, but instantly appeared to sheild the ears of some of the poor Goonswam pilots in local... ------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
rycar Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:51:00 - [56] Originally by: Sinze Originally by: DB Preacher kugutsmen/anthonyz/rycar rycar isn't anthonyz, he's a completely different person. He got his account hijacked by him a couple of times though. As far as I know my account hasn't ever been hijacked by AnthonyZ. Also I am not him -dbp
Sinze	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:52:00 - [57] Originally by: rycar -dbp EVERYONE has had their account hijacked by anthonyz at one time or another. He's like Smith from The Matrix - he just assumes control of anyone he needs to, when he needs to.
Bon Ali Bon's Ecological Recycling	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:52:00 - [58] Originally by: sb404 If you must know, I used that word carefully, since it fit the situation perfectly. It was because some people where "offended" by some ruffian talk in the local channels and called upon their GM for sympathy and a "friendly" warning to the pilots in question. Funny, GMs took an hour and a half to fix my issue with lens being stuck in POS guns, but instantly appeared to sheild the ears of some of the poor Goonswam pilots in local.. This is your hot and epic info? That when a hundred people petition at the same time, it gets a faster response than 1 person? hahaha oh wow. GoonSwarm is sure to crumble now, and its OBVIOUSLY on the same level as the accusations this thread is about.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.31 01:58:00 - [59] Originally by: Crivens Originally by: krystal eyes Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And if the end result is that all these allegations are lies, will you and others apologize publicly for what has happened? Yes. Unreservedly, for myself. seconded. Well, needless to say I'm sure I'm not the only one who will be interested to see if the higher ups on all sides accept judgment and, in the case of any wrongful smearing, apologize for it. We got a fair bit of response from CCP in the last incident, which was started with rather strong proof of wrongdoing, this case though... I feel bad for those who joined that guy's site though. I'd honestly do some password changes if I were you. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:04:00 - [60] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Foodchain Thank you. An official response is all that was needed. Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? I would be the person to send concerns to, my e-mail address is: [email protected]. Keep in mind that I'm not online 24/7, so I do request a small indulgence of time to respond. Wasn't there an issue with CCP mail :p
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:06:00 - [61] There is something that hasn't been cleared up. This dev who was petitioned and accused of abusing the BPO lottery. Had he done so or not? It is all pretty vague. ----------------- Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:07:00 - [62] That's what is being investigated.
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:09:00 - [63] Originally by: jeNK That's what is being investigated. It happened last July. They must not have put Columbo on the case. ----------------- Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
sb404 Caldari Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:11:00 - [64] Edited by: sb404 on 31/01/2007 02:07:49 Originally by: Bon Ali This is your hot and epic info? That when a hundred people petition at the same time, it gets a faster response than 1 person? hahaha oh wow. GoonSwarm is sure to crumble now, and its OBVIOUSLY on the same level as the accusations this thread is about. Gee.. sorry it's not up to your standards, for this I appolagise, I did ask before posting and got the permission to do so, next time maybe I'll ask you before. This is a thread about GM envolvement with corporations and alliances. I beleive my claim is still valid and your banter doesn't deter me one bit. Sorry to see that you feel Goonswarm will crumble under this, cheer up, life's not all that bad. ------------------------------------------------- I never wrote this -Eris
nickky01 The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:14:00 - [65] Originally by: Plim Originally by: jeNK That's what is being investigated. It happened last July. They must not have put Columbo on the case. iirc last july it was a GM, this time its a dev. ------------------------------------------- Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Oh and IAC's official response to ISS's offer is lollerskates.
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:19:00 - [66] Originally by: nickky01 Originally by: Plim Originally by: jeNK That's what is being investigated. It happened last July. They must not have put Columbo on the case. iirc last july it was a GM, this time its a dev. The info regarding Ishos being petitioned was Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:24 pm. Going from the info on kugutsumen's site. ----------------- Originally by: BoB forum PR Toxic sludge is good for you.
Velios M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:24:00 - [67] All this spying / hacking / eavesdropping and other underground methods are ruining eve. Why don't people that are into this stuff get a bloody life and go use their skills for something constructive, like tracking pedo's or terrorists down. You know... something important. M.Corp BPC Packages
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:25:00 - [68] "iirc last july it was a GM, this time its a dev." It's not "this time" as the supposed 'evidence' is dated back to july 2oo6. Then again, the whole thing is based on alleged copy of private communication that mentions a player was petitioned by some unspecified alt and accused of being a dev who tampered with BPO lottery. If there was indeed a dev who was forced to leave due to such practices, then there's nothing to investigate because investigation already happened and the dev was supposedly forced to leave as the result of it. But let's not get fact in the way of good forum drama :s
Lenutza GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:27:00 - [69] Originally by: DB Preacher Kugutsmen is hilarious. He makes up a ton of rubbish then gets people to sign up to his forum and finally gets them to pay him isk to give them more rubbish and then even more isk to legitimise their accounts. So a known hacker now has: Your eve character. Your ip. Your email. Your login and password that you used on his site. A nice cookie from your pc. If you are going to sign up to the forum or give him isk just make sure that you use a completely secure ip, email and DO NOT use a login or password that you use ANYWHERE else. Otherwise, if you're forums get hacked and 6 months down the line kugutsmen/anthonyz/rycar is posting absolute tosh about peeps in your alliance then don't bother wondering why ;) dbp I suppose I shouldnt be surprised that a DB Preacher post is full of crap. Considering he was hacking into the goonfleet forums (compromised gf.com at least twice) long before the blog was posted, I have no reason to doubt he hacked you too. It's certainly a better explanation than he's spending hours meticulously crafting anti-bob propaganda. Whether it's true or not is up to CCP. If you guys think Rycar = anthonyz your detective work is even sadder than I suspected. The one thing that's true here though, is be VERY careful with registering and visiting on his site. Even the referrer (clicking a link from your guild site) is bad news.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:35:00 - [70] "It's certainly a better explanation than he's spending hours meticulously crafting anti-bob propaganda." People pay him isk to hear what he's meticulously crafting; that's quite a good reason to produce whatever he wants, especially since with his background they're buying it without second though. "he's a hacker with established track record of screwing people left right and centre, would such guy ever lie to us? impossible" impossible, indeed :s
nickky01 The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:39:00 - [71] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 02:23:59 "iirc last july it was a GM, this time its a dev." It's not "this time" as the supposed 'evidence' is dated back to july 2oo6. Then again, the whole thing is based on alleged copy of private communication that mentions a player was petitioned by some unspecified alt and accused of being a dev who tampered with BPO lottery. Chinese whispers, in other words. If there was indeed a dev who was forced to leave due to such practices, then there's nothing to investigate because investigation already happened and the dev was supposedly forced to leave as the result of it. But let's not get fact in the way of good forum drama :s i think i confused you...but you confused me. last time that GM had a rattlesnake faction fitted or whatever, and the FIXie killed him and got banned, and caused all that drama...thats what i was talking about. THAT time it was a GM...THIS time (as in what they are supposedly investigating whatever happend a year ago) is a dev. i really dont know what i'm talking about, so yeah, lets just watch the forum drama and lol to ourselves \o/ ------------------------------------------- Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Oh and IAC's official response to ISS's offer is lollerskates.
Rhaegar Targarin Minmatar	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:48:00 - [72] We want blood. Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot
Oddjob187 Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:55:00 - [73] This thread is awesome. So if it all turns out to be true can we load the BPO's into cans in Jita and shoot them one by one and send BoB the fraps? On a more real note, I am finding it hard to believe someone with rent or a mortgage would put his job on the line just to provide his alliance with a few BPO's. Lets hope this gets resolved before 2008.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:57:00 - [74] Originally by: Velios All this spying / hacking / eavesdropping and other underground methods are ruining eve. Why don't people that are into this stuff get a bloody life and go use their skills for something constructive, like tracking pedo's or terrorists down. You know... something important. It's escalation. Someone defects and gives away secrets. Someone else skips the defection and plants a spy. Someone uses the spy to listen to TS servers. Someone skips the alt and hacks a password to get onto the TS. Someone else couldn't give a toss what they're saying and just crashes ther server. Someone else crashes their website and killboard. Someone uses a spy to take pictures and text from a third party websites to slander a number of alliances. Someone else hasnt the time to get spies into alliances and just goes straight for the website and links it. You throw a fist, he gets a knife, you get a pistol, he gets a semi-automatic. This ** has been building for a couple of years now. TS servers and websites have been attacked on and off for as long as i've been in eve. It doesn't matter who started it, or who's doing most of it, or even who's is more honorable. Im fairly certain alot of people from a number of alliance's have knowledge or have taken part in various activities like this. What's interesting is the third party linking that is getting deamed 'unacceptable and rule breaking' when in last 6 months certain nameless alliances have been doing exactly the same thing. . . Whether these accusations are true or not, who knows. To me there didn't seem to be any implication of BPO lottery rigging. All the messages said was 'He's got these BPOs and hes getting petitioned'. Whether people knew he was a dev/GM who shouldn't im sure is open to interpretation. Originally by:** Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 02:59:00 - [75] Ah, AnthonyZ. We have a long history with him. It's not pleasant. But we keep our troubles quiet, these days. At first, he made 'Snigg comics' and tried to infiltrate us by buying something like 6 SA accounts. Then he hacked our forums, over and over and over again. He still does it, but we've decided at this point that everyone in the galaxy reads SpaceGBS and there's no way we can secure a 5000-member forum entirely so we've basically given up at trying to keep him out. If a spy wants to try to keep track of the mess without getting infected with goon culture, good for him. Hacking our forum wasn't enough of course; he proceeded to post bunch of threads onto CAOD using a variety of alts. Our dread thread, op timings, the whole lot. For a while you couldn't come into this cesspool of a forum without hitting 5 'GOON' AnthonyZ threads. Oh, yeah, he hacked my account, my PM box, and exposed a good number of my agents by crapping the contents of that PM box all over EVE. I now know not to trust my pm box or anything on goonfleet.com, a harsh lesson, duly learned. We had a 'wipeout' in the GIA back in November when he captured an admin-level full mirror of goonfleet.com and managed to piece together a nearly full agent list by trolling through archived PMs. The ultimate AnthonyZ burn against us was when he was hired by Lallante, at the price of 500m isk a week, to get access to Remedial's own goonfleet.com account. Our paypal info was there, full access to our Illuminati forums, the works. All his PMs, his personal information, everything. It was very bad, the mother of all security breaches. This is really amusing consider Velios' 'LV WOULD NEVER DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS' bit of chestbeating above given that they were the first people to put Anthony 'on retainer'. Anyways. AnthonyZ around this time decided that he'd finished utterly raping our forums and that he was bored; our poor server admins had basically had heart attacks over trying to keep him out and couldn't. Now that he's had his way with us he's apparently decided that sticking it to BoB would make him a lot more popular and be much more profitable than sticking it to goons. No one really cares about the forum secrets of SpaceGBS, but tweaking BoB's nose in public keeps the 'donations' flowing. I don't where -dbp is going with the line that Rycar is secretly a deranged Frenchman in Jakarta with a penchant for unauthorized access. CCP can confirm that the AnthonyZ accounts and Rycar's are separate very quickly. I turn your towers off, steal your hangars, abscond with your wallets and post excerpts from your forums by way of 100% natural GIA agents, not by resorting to hacking. We have a lot of goon spies, and it's seen as a noble and honorable goon profession, so I have a lot of volunteers and thus a lot of intel. But they're not hackers, and they're not computer geniuses. My boys are just as susceptible to the new D2 method as anyone else, until we can find a way to reliably mask ips on teamspeak rather than just on the forums. About the only advice I can give is to batten down your director forums as best you can, don't trust any commercial or open source forum software, and make your passwords complicated alphanumeric strings... and then pray that he gets bored of dumping your dirty laundry in public and goes after someone else. Good luck.
Ominus Decre The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:04:00 - [76] My only action will be to spend my money somewhere else. EVE was fun while it lasted, too bad CCP no longer has any credibility.
Recluse Viramor Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:12:00 - [77] losing credibility indeed Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Ivan K

kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:17:00 - [78] Originally by: nickky01 last time that GM had a rattlesnake faction fitted or whatever, and the FIXie killed him and got banned, and caused all that drama...thats what i was talking about. THAT time it was a GM...THIS time (as in what they are supposedly investigating whatever happend a year ago) is a dev. True, over the summer of '06 a GM was terminated for spawning items for himself on TQ, we investigated the incident and posted a news item about what had transpired. What happened then will also happen now, an investigation will take place and proper action will be taken. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Ben Derindar KelBen Productions	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:28:00 - [79] Edited by: Ben Derindar on 31/01/2007 03:29:16 This is so depressing. Shame on BoB leadership if it is proven that this dev character indeed abused his position. Shame on the goons for the very public way in which they have clearly tried to take advantage of a situation that likely took a few broken laws to create. And shame on CCP for not acting unless a forum avalanche hits - it's like the Angel 8/10 exploit all over again. Somebody remind me why I play this game again...? /Ben How to fix Eve
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:29:00 - [80] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Foodchain Thank you. An official response is all that was needed. Maybe you should mail CCP directly next time? I would be the person to send concerns to, my e-mail address is: [email protected]. Keep in mind that I'm not online 24/7, so I do request a small indulgence of time to respond. I was wondering. You are not allowed to talk about conversations and rulings done by GMs and devs. It was clearly that those posting in this case thought the regular eve-gamer should be aware of this. Wouldnt this rule out the normal email and petition since they then wouldnt be allowed to talk about it afterwards? And wouldnt it really be easier to make an forum announcement than mailing 5000 goons? you'll never jump alone
0August0 Gallente Gooch Unlimited	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:30:00 - [81] Originally by: Ominus Decre My only action will be to spend my money somewhere else. EVE was fun while it lasted, too bad CCP no longer has any credibility. Oh, erm, uh. Can I have your stuff? . . . Regards, August
arkarsk Provenance.	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:31:00 - [82] ----------------- http://www.eve-provenance.com
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:36:00 - [83] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 31/01/2007 03:32:59 Could we get 5 yardware servers dedictated to running an official custom, ingame, private forum system for corporations and alliances ( even make it an isk sink ) that can RSS feed outside of EVE? I think that will allow us to have our cake and eat it too without hackers ruining the community. One of your Sigs contained inappropriate material for the eve-o forums, please email [email protected] for a explination. - hutch Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:43:00 - [84] The GMs aren't giving out free t2 BPOs as they almost certainly have all GM commands logged what they can do is give their friends a discrete, private heads-up on say, upcoming changes, so they can dump their cap recharger II bpo a week before invention more than halves the profit --- for instance, i'm pretty sure at least two were sold via alts immediately before revelations. it isn't even about profit anyway, they can simply gain an intricate knowledge of the game from talking to coders, game designers and so forth that normal players do not have access to, and they can pass this knowledge on without anybody ever knowing unless they spend 24/7 on CCP grounds and CCP is actually an Orwellian regime. ...now in RED
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:47:00 - [85] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 31/01/2007 03:32:59 Could we get 5 yardware servers dedictated to running an official custom, ingame, private forum system for corporations and alliances ( even make it an isk sink ) that can RSS feed outside of EVE? I think that will allow us to have our cake and eat it too without hackers ruining the community. Sometimes Anthony will use a full-on hack, like when he mirrored goonfleet.com and rooted through my PMs. Apparently this is what Reikoku is suffering from as well. Other times he'll just use a plain old password *****, either guessing your member's passwords or using a rainbow table. The server you suggest might be more secure against the former type of attack, but human stupidity and a refusal to make secure passwords makes basic level access impossible to secure. While /now/ he may appear to be doing a public service by allegedly exposing CCP misconduct (who knows, it could all be a fabrication), who is to say what he'll do in a month, or six months? The kneejerk anti-BoB sentiment is a powerful one, and that's fine, but your anti-BoB hero may turn out to be the villian in the next act.
Urban II	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:49:00 - [86] Originally by: kieron Originally by: nickky01 last time that GM had a rattlesnake faction fitted or whatever, and the FIXie killed him and got banned, and caused all that drama...thats what i was talking about. THAT time it was a GM...THIS time (as in what they are supposedly investigating whatever happend a year ago) is a dev. True, over the summer of '06 a GM was terminated for spawning items for himself on TQ, we investigated the incident and posted a news item about what had transpired. What happened then will also happen now, an investigation will take place and proper action will be taken. Thank you. I apologise for having to spam the forums, but from what I remember about the Scorpion incident, it took...more community pressure than it should have to get that resolved. In the future, instead of nuking my posts to that extent, a simple "We're investigating" and closing it would have sufficed. We may not care about politics, the forums, or honor, but we do care (very much) about this game.
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.31 03:49:00 - [87] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 31/01/2007 03:32:59 Could we get 5 yardware servers dedictated to running an official custom, ingame, private forum system for corporations and alliances ( even make it an isk sink ) that can RSS feed outside of EVE? I think that will allow us to have our cake and eat it too without hackers ruining the community. so bob can read all the forums without evening bothering to plant spies? you'll never jump alone
matty01 The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.31 04:12:00 - [88] well, regardless of what has happened, and whats being investigated, i think any devs/gm's playing this game in any alliance will be much more careful with what they do on those accounts __________________________
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 04:42:00 - [89] Originally by: Ben Derindar Somebody remind me why I play this game again...? You're addicted, duh. We all are. _ Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -Pirlouit
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 04:43:00 - [90] It's damn sad and pathetic that people will resort to breaking the law to create a smear campaign over a clan in a computer game... Personally, I don't care so much one way or another. Even if the allegations and tinfoilhattery turns out to be true, it's just a too small thing to get worked up over in my life. Maybe you should try to redirect your energy at something more constructive -----
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 05:43:00 - [91] Edited by: bulabuba on 31/01/2007 05:43:50 Edited by: bulabuba on 31/01/2007 05:42:53 Edited by: bulabuba on 31/01/2007 05:39:57 I for one am glad that this wasn't handled privately. There have been allegations for a long time that devs were actively playing in the game in certain alliances. The response to these allegations has always been along the lines of "Proof or STFU". Regardless of whether this investigation turns up wrong-doing or not, the fact remains that there was a dev playing in an alliance that has been often accused of (and vehemently denied) having devs playing for them. Here's the proof, so I guess nobody has to STFU anymore. To CCP: You should not have devs playing this game on the live server. Period, end of story. This is a competitive game, and even if these devs aren't doing anything wrong that would favor the alliances that they play for, it stinks of it, and that is nothing but bad for your reputation as a company, and the reputation of the game. If devs want to play, they should play on the test server where what they can or can't do doesn't really matter. I would hope that you will take this opportunity to announce that you have established a policy of no devs playing on TQ. Lets keep the reputation of the game above reproach. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]
arkarsk Provenance.	Posted - 2007.01.31 05:49:00 - [92] Originally by: bulabuba words Asking devs to stop playing the game they created in the way it was intended to be played is the worst idea i've ever heard. The furthest I would go is to not allow CCP employees into 0.0 alliances, but even that sounds ridiculous. ----------------- http://www.eve-provenance.com
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 05:55:00 - [93] Originally by: arkarsk Originally by: bulabuba words Asking devs to stop playing the game they created in the way it was intended to be played is the worst idea i've ever heard. The furthest I would go is to not allow CCP employees into 0.0 alliances, but even that sounds ridiculous. The devs are paid employees who make a living creating the game. That does not entitle them to play it. As I said, if they want to play, there is a test server where they can go "pew pew" each other after work to their heart's content. I'm a software developer myself, but I'm also an adult, and I fully well understand how even the appearance of a conflict of interest could negatively effect my employer. Now that this cat is out of the bag, establishing a "no devs on TQ" policy is the only way to put it back in. Anything short of that, and you're always going to have the stink of favoritism and conflict of interest, even if there isn't any. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]
Sergio Ling Standard Operations Building Services Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:10:00 - [94] Originally by: bulabuba Originally by: arkarsk Originally by: bulabuba words Asking devs to stop playing the game they created in the way it was intended to be played is the worst idea i've ever heard. The furthest I would go is to not allow CCP employees into 0.0 alliances, but even that sounds ridiculous. The devs are paid employees who make a living creating the game. That does not entitle them to play it. As I said, if they want to play, there is a test server where they can go "pew pew" each other after work to their heart's content. I'm a software developer myself, but I'm also an adult, and I fully well understand how even the appearance of a conflict of interest could negatively effect my employer. Now that this cat is out of the bag, establishing a "no devs on TQ" policy is the only way to put it back in. Anything short of that, and you're always going to have the stink of favoritism and conflict of interest, even if there isn't any. Quite frankly horse****. Where do you think the enthusiasm comes to develop this game? because they love it. Stopping them playing it is ridiculous. _ Your sig is pwn - Eris
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:17:00 - [95] Originally by: Sergio Ling Originally by: bulabuba Originally by: arkarsk Originally by: bulabuba words Asking devs to stop playing the game they created in the way it was intended to be played is the worst idea i've ever heard. The furthest I would go is to not allow CCP employees into 0.0 alliances, but even that sounds ridiculous. The devs are paid employees who make a living creating the game. That does not entitle them to play it. As I said, if they want to play, there is a test server where they can go "pew pew" each other after work to their heart's content. I'm a software developer myself, but I'm also an adult, and I fully well understand how even the appearance of a conflict of interest could negatively effect my employer. Now that this cat is out of the bag, establishing a "no devs on TQ" policy is the only way to put it back in. Anything short of that, and you're always going to have the stink of favoritism and conflict of interest, even if there isn't any. Quite frankly horse***. Where do you think the enthusiasm comes to develop this game? because they love it. Stopping them playing it is ridiculous. Well, my enthusiasm for going to work each morning comes from supporting my family and whatever else I choose to do with the dollars I earn. I also happen to love to write software and see it work. I think all engineers do. As i've said a couple of times now, there is a test server where they can go play among themselves or with whomever else is logged on there if they want to play. The software development business is not the mouseketeer fun-house. Adult people make their living at it. When there's a conflict between business and "fun", business has to win. I'm sure the devs are mature enough to see that. An alternative would be to clearly identify devs in game as devs, similarly to how GMs are distinguishable. That way, at least it's transparent, and everyone knows who they are. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]*
Kassandra Wheldon	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:23:00 - [96] Here's a bloody sexy idea! let the developers take the jovian race, the Dev race so to speak and start getting them into the world of eve? Imagine their own group that pretty much understands all - life, the universe and everything. to become co-operative with other alliances that are "good" and fight "evil" alliances or have the devs do their thing with customized ships that makes them still feel special. make the role-players happy and the PvP hardcore people happy aswell. Then we can also have a storyline come out of it. and we get to shoot them. that way there is'nt any secret CCP/GM alt somewhere to worry about it's just them, playing with us, and we know they're right there! oh yeah. and can we jus----jus....t Ge.. get along? in the words of michael jackson
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:33:00 - [97] I'm not really sure what to think about all of this. If the allegations are true, that's bad. I certainly hope that CCP would allow some transparency for the sake of the community to let us know what the final verdict is. But what's worse is the lengths that people are going to these days to get ahead in this game. I mean, the politics are what really drew me to the game after I had played around for a while. But things just seem to be going too far lately...maybe it's been going on all along and I just haven't noticed it. I mean, I don't expect things to be all light and fluffy, but isn't there a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed? There doesn't seem to be any real agreement on that by the playerbase...and that's what I really don't like.
Roller Syn-Packet Security	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:37:00 - [98] Looks like it's only getting worse... More Dev's have been outted on that 3rd party forum. The tinfoil hat joke is going to have new meaning after the leaks are over with I think.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:41:00 - [99] I don't think anybody wants to see CCP employees fired (least those of us that are sane). But CCP really needs to realize, that no matter how you try to spin it, employees in the game will have a huge conflict of interest the minute they get involved with anything major...whether it be 0.0 politics, or the market. Yes the employees should be able to play, but only if you can properly monitor them, which you clearly can't. So you should probably just tell them not to play. They can test things out over in Jove space if they have to. Keep them out of the mainland. Shamis
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 06:59:00 - [100] If this guy keeps hacking into forums, why don't someone put the law enforcement agencies on him? Systematic hacking like this is illegal and will be investigated in all countries I know of. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:06:00 - [101] Originally by: bulabuba To CCP: You should not have devs playing this game on the live server. Period, end of story. This is a competitive game, and even if these devs aren't doing anything wrong that would favor the alliances that they play for, it stinks of it, and that is nothing but bad for your reputation as a company, and the reputation of the game. If devs want to play, they should play on the test server where what they can or can't do doesn't really matter. I would hope that you will take this opportunity to announce that you have established a policy of no devs playing on TQ. Lets keep the reputation of the game above reproach. QFT. The main reason why devs of other games don't play on the LIVE server but on their own/test server is that if they play among the normal players they are bound to become biased towards the faction they are playing with. It's simple sociological fact, nothing more, nothing less and even if they wanted to they can't help it, it will happen subconsiously. This mixed with EVE's environment equals to a rather nice crapfest of course... --- Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances. ---
Arched	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Mitchman If this guy keeps hacking into forums, why don't someone put the law enforcement agencies on him? Systematic hacking like this is illegal and will be investigated in all countries I know of. That is the problem. What country is he from? Who is he. Just another name. I wonder if his CCP account details are even actually his. Regardless to that I personally think that GM's and Dev's have every right and to play this game, and play it just like the rest of us. I honestly dont doubt those were legitimate wins in the bpo lottery. If i was spawning myself bpo's it wouldn't be malediction and ****ty ammo bpo's (Sabre wasn't bad though) What needs to be done is very simple I think. Ban this Hacker. (His eve-online account) Ban any character that in ANY WAY links someone to his site. not just forum bans, but account bans for weeks if not months. I know it's third party, but it is within your realm to remove all linked people to a site that is maliciously attacking the privacy and information of the people who consume to this game. Ban him, Permanently. Ban anything that connects people in anyway to his site. Remove his ability to influence anything in this game. Make a stand. We are seeing a very hostile level of escalation and i can see no other option to resolving the issue. CCP owns everything here. the forums, EVE, our characters. EXERT THAT POWER.
Vily Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:12:00 - [103] above is me -
Red Six Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:15:00 - [104] Originally by: Mitchman If this guy keeps hacking into forums, why don't someone put the law enforcement agencies on him? Systematic hacking like this is illegal and will be investigated in all countries I know of. On top of what's been said already unless you can show financial impact most law enforcement agencies can care less about computer crime. In the few dealings I've have with the computer crimes FBI agents, they've stated it takes around $5K at the least to make it worth their time investigating. Sad, I know but that's life. Originally by: Eridu Fallen Upon closer inspection, that Caldari BS doesn't even look like it got hit with the ugly stick, it looks like it is the ugly stick.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:33:00 - [105] For those who are not in the know about why you shouldn't use phpBB: It's full of security holes. As a moderator for one board based on it I've come across over 30 different ways in which all you need to do is a typo to wrong box (writing a line of SQL to avatar box to break the entire thing was my personal favorite) and you've "hacked" the entire board. As such most of these exploits are so damn dumb that you do them by accident thus it really isn't hacking if you encourter one of them. It of course is morally wrong to do that but since moral doesn't seem to apply to this game I guess that's irrelevant. Going from there, there is a feature in phpBB's administration page that dumps the entire database to local harddisk. I'm not sure since I have never had the need to check but I think it may actually save even the deleted messages, only thing the board software may do is to remove the message links from thread index. As you may have guessed, allegedly BoB's (and many other alliances') entire forum was based on phpBB. --- Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances. ---
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:38:00 - [106] Masters of your own game, you say
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:51:00 - [107] Originally by: kieron CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. Continuing to post information from third party sites, spamming the forums, breaking the forum rules, etc. will not speed along the investigative process. Post discussion in this thread and please follow the forum rules. So are the goonswarm members getting banned for the spam? or is it policy for CCP to not ban people that accuse them?
Kerosene Caldari Fun Inc Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 07:59:00 - [108] Now you know why my sig says what it does. Not nice to be on the other end of it, is it? Maybe a CCP guy has been naughty, maybe not. I'll reserve judgement until the verdict comes out but the irony is just staggering. __ Originally by: Blacklight on BoB Just to be sure everyone is clear... We use spies. We listen to your TS. We feed you false intel. We have no qualms about it whatsoever..
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:09:00 - [109] Originally by: The Mittani I don't where -dbp is going with the line that Rycar is secretly a deranged Frenchman in Jakarta with a penchant for unauthorized access. CCP can confirm that the AnthonyZ accounts and Rycar's are separate very quickly. I didn't just pick rycar's name out of a hat of goonswarm characters there was a pretty specific reason for it. If you are serious about wanting to know the reason why then drop me a evemail ingame... no bs, no ulterior motives. I don't care if the eve community believes me or not but I sincerely hope that no-one else gets hacked/attacked by kugutsmen. Please read what I wrote on page 2 and think about it. Pretend it is a neutral telling you it and if you still think it is rubbish then just do it anyway before he is all over your forums, account and rl stuff. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:17:00 - [110] Edited by: bulabuba on 31/01/2007 08:16:03 Originally by: Arched Originally by: Mitchman If this guy keeps hacking into forums, why don't someone put the law enforcement agencies on him? Systematic hacking like this is illegal and will be investigated in all countries I know of. I honestly dont doubt those were legitimate wins in the bpo lottery. If i was spawning myself bpo's it wouldn't be malediction and ***ty ammo bpo's (Sabre wasn't bad though) Um... yeah. Well first of all, if he did what I think he did, which was to install spyware on browsers that visited his site and that report back to him other sites that that same browser visited, it's not against the law. It happens all the time, as most folks well know. There is even a whole industry dedicated to making software that removes spyware. Second of all, if this dev had T-2 BPOs that he was using to benefit the alliance to which he belonged, legitimately obtained or not, he shouldn't have. Everyone knows what those things mean in this game. A dev in posession of them and using them in game just stinks. You will never convince a goodly percentage of the player population that he didn't pull some strings to get them. From CCP's end, it's just plain bad business to let this kind of thing go on. Even the possiblity of it creating a big crap storm like this is more than enough reason that that dev should have thrown the damn things back in the hopper and let them go to a paying customer, rather than to someone on the payroll. The fact that he didn't stinks like helping out his alliance was more important to him than fair play, even if that's not the case. I really hope that CCP steps up and does the right thing here. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]*
Eponine Astarte Industrial Holdings Unlimited	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:19:00 - [111] I'm not bothered by there being devs in BoB. There should be devs involved in 0.0 politics, just as there should be devs who are high sec mission runners, low-sec pirates, and Jita industrialsits. But here is what REALLY bothers me: How did Dianbolic know that the person who petitioned Inos was an alt? The person who petitioned Inos did so anonymously because he feared that BoB would find out the identity of his main. The fact that a BoB director was able to identify who the alt was is pretty disturbing. That, more than the mere existence of a BoB GM, shows how they are abusing their positions within CCP and using their jobs to gain an in-game advantage. Dianbolic should never have had any clue whatsoever as to who the petitioner was, yet lo and behold he did.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:26:00 - [112] Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 08:22:39 Originally by: Eponine Astarte I'm not bothered by there being devs in BoB. There should be devs involved in 0.0 politics, just as there should be devs who are high sec mission runners, low-sec pirates, and Jita industrialsits. But here is what REALLY bothers me: How did Dianbolic know that the person who petitioned Inos was an alt? The person who petitioned Inos did so anonymously because he feared that BoB would find out the identity of his main. The fact that a BoB director was able to identify who the alt was is pretty disturbing. That, more than the mere existence of a BoB GM, shows how they are abusing their positions within CCP and using their jobs to gain an in-game advantage. Dianbolic should never have had any clue whatsoever as to who the petitioner was, yet lo and behold he did. I think that's something you say when you don't know who it is. Forum post exposing something? probably an alt. Spy on TS? probably an alt.. someone petitioned? probably an alt.. Don't tinfoil up so much, i really can't believe people are so easily misleaded.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Sinlare I think that's something you say when you don't know who it is. Forum post exposing something? probably an alt. Spy on TS? probably an alt.. someone petitioned? probably an alt.. Don't tinfoil up so much, i really can't believe people are so easily misleaded. If by "tinfoil" you mean "totally reasonable and justified suspicion at this point".
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:37:00 - [114] Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Sinlare I think that's something you say when you don't know who it is. Forum post exposing something? probably an alt. Spy on TS? probably an alt.. someone petitioned? probably an alt.. Don't tinfoil up so much, i really can't believe people are so easily misleaded. If by "tinfoil" you mean "totally reasonable and justified suspicion at this point". No i don't, people should rely more on facts then fiction. Especially when it's no game for the people they accuse, but people on these boards tend to forget that.
Mar vel Caldari H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:37:00 - [115] Links. Kind of hard to listen to people whisper i told you so. I F**ING TOLD YOU SO. Any connection with a certain guest on the 4th annual PvP Tournament, or was that sheer coincidence also? Mmmk. It does look pretty....complex given the situation at hand. I really can't resist: lol@u ccp. Once again into the breech. Try telling the community* (all 100,000 of us) that you didn't know that your man was playing in BoB, and I'll have to throw Veldspar at you from short distances. CCP (as a company) is pretty small, the Dev community even more so. Conceivably it would be no problem for a Dev to manipulate the environment to their own advantages without a lot of red flags being thrown. The fact that the person accused supposedly did this without any knowledge or repurcussions by Devs, is, well, not so good. I don't think you can realistically lock down your Application from people with code-level access, but....well, one would think that there are SOME chacks and balances in place. After all, this ins't Garage Band Beta 2 anymore, now is it? I think everyone here encourages CCP Devs to play in-game; it's necessary and helpful -but that comes with a pretty big responsibility. We know you guys love this game - so do we; the danger is that you get involved in role-playing your character, and then it's no big deal to let slip information, or in the worst cases, goods and materials or tactical/strategic information. This really, really does a lot to undermine people's confidence in the game - there's nothing that irritates people more than KNOWING that they're just feeding the grist mill, and that they will NEVER get ahead - much less experience some of the content that is reserved only for Alliance-level play (Titans, Motherships, etc.). T2 BPO's are probably THE ONLY chance that the masses can count on to "hit it big" - many of the BPO's are like printing free isk in bulk. Even if one person committed the fault - think of how many "XX" T2 items have been built and sold, how many have been built and used - giving the bearers and the users vast tactical advantages. Now apply this tactical advantage at the alliance level. Madness. It completely unbalances every win -every instance where there was a decisive victory can be attributed to the cumulative effects of the original infraction(s). There are already SO many issues plaguing this game in terms of scalability, features, content, balancing, bugs, etc. - why would you (CCP) want to risk creating the straw that broke the Camel's back? Take a page from some of the other CCP Devs who posted in the past(on behalf of the company)to just plain admit a mistake had been made - and that a positive resolution was forthcoming. Do not keep us in partial truths. We can respect that. I, for one, will be watching this with a lot of interest - and continued suspicion, regardless of the outcome. CCP, you've earned that disresepct because you openly lied about not having Devs in BoB. Now we'll wait and see how you handle the issue, which has all the makings of a major political drama - both in-game and out of game. Mar vel
Bon Ali Bon's Ecological Recycling	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:39:00 - [116] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Sinlare I think that's something you say when you don't know who it is. Forum post exposing something? probably an alt. Spy on TS? probably an alt.. someone petitioned? probably an alt.. Don't tinfoil up so much, i really can't believe people are so easily misleaded. If by "tinfoil" you mean "totally reasonable and justified suspicion at this point". No i don't, people should rely more on facts then fiction. Especially when it's no game for the people they accuse, but people on these boards tend to forget that. Try heading over to the board where this information originated and tell me there isnt good IP evidence. Also: Users posting from this IP address Lord Stone [ 84 Posts ] Al Haquis [ 68 Posts ] Ishos Rerajan [ 31 Posts ] Morbius Drake [ 1 Post ] Khaldorn Murino [ 1 Post ]
La Tortura Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:42:00 - [117] I would say EVE managers should take these issues _very_ serious. Othervise soon all positive replies about EVE on all gaming forums of the world will end up with "unfortunatelly there are a lot of proven cases of corruption and favouritism amongst CCP staff lately". That would be quite bad PR. -- ignorance is bliss
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:47:00 - [118] Originally by: Bon Ali Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Sinlare I think that's something you say when you don't know who it is. Forum post exposing something? probably an alt. Spy on TS? probably an alt.. someone petitioned? probably an alt.. Don't tinfoil up so much, i really can't believe people are so easily misleaded. If by "tinfoil" you mean "totally reasonable and justified suspicion at this point". No i don't, people should rely more on facts then fiction. Especially when it's no game for the people they accuse, but people on these boards tend to forget that. Try heading over to the board where this information originated and tell me there isnt good IP evidence. Also: Users posting from this IP address Lord Stone [ 84 Posts ] Al Haquis [ 68 Posts ] Ishos Rerajan [ 31 Posts ] Morbius Drake [ 1 Post ] Khaldorn Murino [ 1 Post ] What's wrong with ccp playing eve? You will probably find much more of that in any given alliance. 'Mar vel' above shows how twisted some people have become, not to mention paranoid. It's a sad display of human psychology, it cannot comprehend anything but the best for itself.
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:48:00 - [119] I'd like to know why this hacker isn't in jail yet, sounds like he's been breaking a few laws? Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Eponine Astarte Industrial Holdings Unlimited	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:51:00 - [120] Originally by: Sinlare I think that's something you say when you don't know who it is. Forum post exposing something? probably an alt. Spy on TS? probably an alt.. someone petitioned? probably an alt.. Don't tinfoil up so much, i really can't believe people are so easily misleaded. haha, go read Dianbolic's private message on the issue. It's very clear to anyone with an understanding of the English language (just saying because there are many ESL's playing Eve) that he knew the petitioner was in fact an alt. Not "alt" used as a stand-in for anonymous person, but alt as in a character created for a specific purpose to avoid main character attribution.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:53:00 - [121] Originally by: maarud I'd like to know why this hacker isn't in jail yet, sounds like he's been breaking a few laws? My guess is that since Anthony Zboralski resides in indonesia any law enforcement agency will be hard pressed to prosecute such small infractions in economic sense.
La Tortura Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 08:57:00 - [122] Originally by: Why'dyou HitMe Originally by: La Tortura I would say EVE managers should take these issues _very_ serious. Othervise soon all positive replies about EVE on all gaming forums of the world will end up with "unfortunatelly there are a lot of proven cases of corruption and favouritism amongst CCP staff lately". That would be quite bad PR. How many does that make now? Lets see, there was the GM, then an EVE TV guy, now is it one or two this time. So is that 3 or 4 so far... blah... I cant keep up, just change the rules again and be done with it. Nobody caress "how many", or even whether these cases were serious violations or not. For mass public just one half-proven case is enough to make conclusions. For games these events are amongst the worst PR of possible, and it is impossible to cover them up, as there will be the more and more posts on independent gaming forums, and each locked or erased post would be taken as another evidence. -- ignorance is bliss
Why'dyou HitMe Minmatar The Reckoning	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:05:00 - [123] Originally by: La Tortura Originally by: Why'dyou HitMe Originally by: La Tortura I would say EVE managers should take these issues _very_ serious. Othervise soon all positive replies about EVE on all gaming forums of the world will end up with "unfortunatelly there are a lot of proven cases of corruption and favouritism amongst CCP staff lately". That would be quite bad PR. How many does that make now? Lets see, there was the GM, then an EVE TV guy, now is it one or two this time. So is that 3 or 4 so far... blah... I cant keep up, just change the rules again and be done with it. Nobody caress "how many", or even whether these cases were serious violations or not. For mass public just one half-proven case is enough to make conclusions. For games these events are amongst the worst PR of possible, and it is impossible to cover them up, as there will be the more and more posts on independent gaming forums, and each locked or erased post would be taken as another evidence. Yeah I know, Ive already seen it spamed on other gaming sites right after the first few post were deleted here. Some even said they were sending letters to the CEO of CCP, people take their games VERY seriously it seems, especially when they pay to play.

Veritech	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:08:00 - [124] Ahhh this discussion again. People saying devs shouldn't play the game should consider the following: - A lot of CCP's employees are, like me, just players with a passion for the game that "rolled in" through ISD or referral. - People will accuse devs of abuse regardless of what they do, just like people will find things to complain about things no matter how much effort is made to please them. It's human nature. Sure, I would agree that the only way for devs not to get accused is for them to not play the game. However, should people that managed made their passion their work, give up that passion? For me it is a resounding "no". I love my player character, I spent 4 years of my life living it and still enjoy it as much as I did on day one. Giving it up would take away the fire that brought and keeps me here. Also, often I hear people complaining about bugs and go like "WTF? What the <expletive> were they thinking? Do they even PLAY* this game?"* So what do you want? Make up your mind! By all means, if you suspect a CCP employee breaking the rules, petition it just as you would another player. As kieron said, the resolution in abuse cases ranges from harsh to severe. Simply outing devs publicly and pointing the finger is the wrong way and frowned upon, not to mention pretty spiteful should said accusations be false, as you'll have ruined that person's ability to play the character as a player.

MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:09:00 - [125] Firstly.. I have no issues with Devs and co. playing the game, its a great game, they have a part in how it runs.. so why not? However what is disturbing is that a dev has felt the need to cheat for the alliance he was in to see them progress in game. So it would be interesting to know, if it was happened more than once? Would this of continued to happen if it wasn't brought to the attention of others? Also it would be nice to know what CCP are going to do about it, once they've dealt with the issue. The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!! My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:14:00 - [126] Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Firstly.. I have no issues with Devs and co. playing the game, its a great game, they have a part in how it runs.. so why not? However what is disturbing is that a dev has felt the need to cheat for the alliance he was in to see them progress in game. So it would be interesting to know, if it was happened more than once? Would this of continued to happen if it wasn't brought to the attention of others? Also it would be nice to know what CCP are going to do about it, once they've dealt with the issue. Where does it say a dev cheated? This is how a witch-hunt starts, it's stupid.
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:17:00 - [127] Originally by: kieron CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Firstly.. I have no issues with Devs and co. playing the game, its a great game, they have a part in how it runs.. so why not? However what is disturbing is that a dev has felt the need to cheat for the alliance he was in to see them progress in game. So it would be interesting to know, if it was happened more than once? Would this of continued to happen if it wasn't brought to the attention of others? Also it would be nice to know what CCP are going to do about it, once they've dealt with the issue. Where does it say a dev cheated? This is how a witch-hunt starts, it's stupid. From the 1st page funnily enough The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!! My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
krystal eyes	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:19:00 - [128] Originally by: Sinlare So are the goonswarm members getting banned for the spam? or is it policy for CCP to not ban people that accuse them? The goonswarm members who broke the rules of the forum have lost their posting rights. The ones who didn't break any rules haven't lost their posting rights. This is considered fair and well.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:21:00 - [129] Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 09:18:01 Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Originally by: kieron CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. From the 1st page funnily enough "members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct" If you read that as 'a dev cheated' then you're lost already. Originally by: krystal eyes The goonswarm members who broke the rules of the forum have lost their posting rights. The ones who didn't break any rules haven't lost their posting rights. This is considered fair and well. Agreed, that's fair :)
Jun Suzuki	Posted - 2007.01.31 09:58:00 - [130] Originally by: Sinlare Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 09:18:01 Originally by: MrTriggerHappy Originally by: kieron CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. From the 1st page funnily enough "members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct" If you read that as 'a dev cheated' then you're lost already. Originally by: krystal eyes The goonswarm members who broke the rules of the forum have lost their posting rights. The ones who didn't break any rules haven't lost their posting rights. This is considered fair and well. Agreed, that's fair :) 3rd page, post by Kieron, towards the bottom. He was mistaken in saying it was on the first page: Quote: True, over the summer of '06 a GM was terminated for spawning items for himself on TQ, we investigated the incident and posted a news item about what had transpired. What happened then will also happen now, an investigation will take place and proper action will be taken. Not a dev but a GM, which are held in the same confidence as a developer, essentially, as they have manipulative powers over the game environment.
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 10:04:00 - [131] He didnt correct himself.. he quoted about an incident with a GM in summer 2006.. this incident is with a dev this time. However I do stand corrected that cheating was probably not the correct term to use, although depending on the allegations it could still be appropriate. Also I did state.. I generally have no issues with devs and GMs playing the game The Image hoster removed my siggy.. it'll be back on the weekend!! My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 10:16:00 - [132] Originally by: MrTriggerHappy He didnt correct himself.. he quoted about an incident with a GM in summer 2006.. this incident is with a dev this time. However I do stand corrected that cheating was probably not the correct term to use, although depending on the allegations it could still be appropriate. Also I did state.. I generally have no issues with devs and GMs playing the game I still don't understand your post, but i take it you didnt mean it too bad :P so i apologize.
ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2007.01.31 10:18:00 - [133] after all this crap will CCP check all BoB ship lose petition + @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@
Fubear Vogon Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.01.31 10:19:00 - [134] Originally by: krystal eyes Originally by: Sinlare So are the goonswarm members getting banned for the spam? or is it policy for CCP to not ban people that accuse them? The goonswarm members who broke the rules of the forum have lost their posting rights. The ones who didn't break any rules haven't lost their posting rights. This is considered fair and well. Which rules were broken anyway? The rules of this forum specifically allow third party links and chatlogs to be posted as long as there is discussion to be made with it... considering the amount of discussion it has generated I think that this meets that criteria. Honestly, this spying business leaves a nasty stink. I would like to see ANY third party links and quotes from sources that are not publicly accessible outlawed, not just the ones that make BoB look bad. Whats next? Are we going to see Forum/Teamspeak servers hacked offline at critical times? Perhaps a DDoS against a Titan pilot to force them offline while agressed? Hacked accounts being used to offline towers? A line needs to be drawn, and it needs to be drawn a lot further away from what is illegal and immoral than what a lot of people seem to think is currently acceptable.
Adam C 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 11:34:00 - [135] goodluck ccp! the community deserve nothing short of swift resolve
Big Al Caldari Macrominer Waste Management	Posted - 2007.01.31 11:38:00 - [136] snip Be nice. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Kahlil Dass Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:00:00 - [137] Originally by: kieron This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. Given that the allegations at the moment may pertain directly to the demise of several alliances over many years I hope that your investigation is conducted with some degree of transparency, that your findings are made public, and that an appropriate measure of restitution is made to those who were cheated out of their in-game experience. Originally by: kieron Continuing to post information from third party sites, spamming the forums, breaking the forum rules, etc. will not speed along the investigative process. See above. Do the right thing and you have our trust. Stifle discussion or appear to do nothing, you won't, and we will respond accordingly.
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:00:00 - [138] snip Inappropriate content removed. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Thews Mortaza Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:18:00 - [139] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) (Sig) Your momma so fat ... when I tried to scoop her to my cargo hold, she don't fit !
Littlest Hobo Aliastra	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:19:00 - [140] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])

Conuion Meow Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:24:00 - [141] Please keep the discussion related to the investigation at hand. As kieron said, posting information from third party sites and sources will not help this process along. Thank you. Forum Rules \| E-Mail us! (Report a bad post) \| Sexeh CRC Website! aka Onion -Eldo

Sir MilBanacky Stronghold corp Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:30:00 - [142] Edited by: Sir MilBanacky on 31/01/2007 12:27:49 Originally by: Conuion Meow Please keep the discussion related to the investigation at hand. As kieron said, posting information from third party sites and sources will not help this process along. Thank you. I for one hope it will be a HONEST Investigation. Suppressing posts is not really going to help CCP look like a Sterling Entity I feel it makes it look like they are hiding something or trying very hard to make it go away. Alot of people have been here over three years and played withing the rules, And paid their Fee's also like loyal customers, So we expect to be treated fairly for our Loyalty. I hope it wasnt all in vain.
Sentinel Eeex Caldari Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:37:00 - [143] I am so happy all the ASCN 'dirty laundry' was always available on eve-o forums, even after complaints, yet stuff about "you-know-who" is gone from forums in matter of minutes. CCP, maybe you should try to hire people with some integrity, next time?
Reiisha Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:47:00 - [144] People are idiots. 1) Do you seriously expect the devs to not play the game they are making? Do you expect id or epic to not play quake or unreal? Do you expect blizzard to not play WoW? Are you idiots? 2) Even if a dev plays a game, i trust them that they don't create advantages for themselves. It's that simple. 3) Why the hell are people defending "proof" that's provided by a hacker that is just trying to annoy people? I ask again, are you all idiots? 4) Why the hell is it that BoB gets all this ** over them? I'll tell you why. People are jealous, and sore losers. They make up excuses for losing. They don't want to hear that it's their own bloody fault. People want an excuse of why they aren't as good as BoB, and they don't want to hear that they're simply not that good. I'll just answer the question i asked 2 times before: They are idiots. They want to ruin the game for everyone just because they can't take it that they lost to people who were simply better than them. In the WCG, people shake hands after a match. In EVE, they start accusing each other of cheating. How is this not a f**d up situation? It's just hilarious to see people who know absolutely nothing about anything relating to this coming in and speaking like they know everything. Again, they are idiots, and i really hope they don't start attacking me for saying this, but realizing what the hell they're doing and start to stop behaving like this. What the hell am i typing this, for, people will either ignore this post or just flame me for being BoB. Yeah, they're idiots. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Noveron Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:51:00 - [145] Originally by: kieron CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. Continuing to post information from third party sites, spamming the forums, breaking the forum rules, etc. will not speed along the investigative process. Post discussion in this thread and please follow the forum rules. Do you play EVE in any alliance Kieron? ---
MetalZero Minmatar Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:51:00 - [146] someone didn't take ..... medicine today ___________ ThunderCats
Gutsani The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:53:00 - [147] A question to Kieron, What are you gonna do to the pilots that knew about this situation, ea that the people involved were gms/devs handing out isk/personal advantages to them? Sounds unfair to me that you will not punish this kind of behavior since its not only the gms/devs that did this, even though they should know better. The pilots knew where it came from, they could have said no! And if i read that message board, i think there should be enough prove to state that the pilots knew about it, and (disab)used their position at CCP. Furthermore, what are you gonna do with the T2 prints that got aquired this way? ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:55:00 - [148] Originally by: Reiisha 1) Do you seriously expect the devs to not play the game they are making? Do you expect id or epic to not play quake or unreal? Do you expect blizzard to not play WoW? Are you idiots? Actually, as far as I'm aware, the restrictions and penalties that Blizzard has on employees who play the game are far, far more stringent than the ones on CCP employees. Quote: It's just hilarious to see people who know absolutely nothing about anything relating to this coming in and speaking like they know everything. Again, they are idiots, and i really hope they don't start attacking me for saying this, but realizing what the hell they're doing and start to stop behaving like this. What the hell am i typing this, for, people will either ignore this post or just flame me for being BoB. Yeah, they're idiots. Of course, it could have nothing to do with the fact that most of your post is a rambling preemptive troll to be begin with. Sorry, I just don't believe categorical denials by BoB members. Let's have CCP perform an open investigation and see what's really going on.
Virida Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:58:00 - [149] Ive seen this happen before, actually, exept, then, i was in the gameclan getting hit, in a different mmo. I suspect the one doing such act, is not a "merc", rather want to have "fun" making ppl get angry at each other, and obliterating bad and old Vbullentin versions is the simple thing to do. And if a hacker can manage to manipulate ppl into getting angry, they just deceived the players, who should have been grown players having fun, into trowing dirt. Please act nice, please? And, this topic is age old, really. The topic of hacking guilds is immortalized in internet comics, even: http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip067.html
Dracorimus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 12:58:00 - [150] I gave up trying to reason with people on this forum long ago.... -
Dracorimus Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:00:00 - [151] Originally by: Gutsani A question to Kieron, What are you gonna do to the pilots that knew about this situation, ea that the people involved were gms/devs handing out isk/personal advantages to them? Sounds unfair to me that you will not punish this kind of behavior since its not only the gms/devs that did this, even though they should know better. The pilots knew where it came from, they could have said no! And if i read that message board, i think there should be enough prove to state that the pilots knew about it, and (disab)used their position at CCP. Furthermore, what are you gonna do with the T2 prints that got aquired this way? Are you really this stupid ? Or did you have to work hard at it ? With this post I would assume the latter applies..... -
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:09:00 - [152] Edited by: Christopher Scott on 31/01/2007 13:06:39 Originally by: Dracorimus Are you really this stupid ? Or did you have to work hard at it ? With this post I would assume the latter applies..... Wow. Did your propaganda machine break-down now? You have nothing left to say but bitter, pointless insults to other players? I would report you for harassment, but it's pretty pointless to report a BoB player for moderation. I have a better chance of winning a T2 BPO without CCP Connections V.
Reiisha Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:09:00 - [153] Edited by: Reiisha on 31/01/2007 13:07:10 Originally by: Anonymous Coward Sorry, I just don't believe categorical denials by BoB members. This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. Why? Because someone told you not to? Because you're jumping on the train of people who hate bob? I'd bet a lot on you saying this just because other people did. It just takes one guy to instigate a riot, as has been proven by this very thread. I still don't get why people don't get this. Better yet. I was in IAC just a couple of days ago. Why should i suddenly be untrustworthy? EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Kobanashi Laro Die Apokalyptischen Reiter Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:11:00 - [154] Excellent information policy. Thanks. --
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:11:00 - [155] Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Anonymous Coward Sorry, I just don't believe categorical denials by BoB members. This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. Why? Because someone told you not to? Because you're jumping on the train of people who hate bob? I'd bet a lot on you saying this just because other people did. It just takes one guy to instigate a riot, as has been proven by this very thread. I still don't get why people don't get this. No, because you own alliance leaders have categoriacally confirmed they are willing to use underhand tactics. They have confirmed they have spies on "our" teamspeak. They have confirmed they have spies on "our" forums. They have confirmed they have alts in "our" corporations, and they have also confirmed they have no quarms with any of it. THAT is why BoB is untrusted.
Kyguard Fire Mandrill Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:13:00 - [156] I don't know why everyone is jumping the ******* bandwagon on both sides. CCP is doing an investigation, get some patience and wait for a bit. - WeComeInPeace Video
NTRabbit Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:15:00 - [157] Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Anonymous Coward Sorry, I just don't believe categorical denials by BoB members. This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. Why? Because someone told you not to? Because you're jumping on the train of people who hate bob? I'd bet a lot on you saying this just because other people did. It just takes one guy to instigate a riot, as has been proven by this very thread. I still don't get why people don't get this. No, because you own alliance leaders have categoriacally confirmed they are willing to use underhand tactics. They have confirmed they have spies on "our" teamspeak. They have confirmed they have spies on "our" forums. They have confirmed they have alts in "our" corporations, and they have also confirmed they have no quarms with any of it. THAT is why BoB is untrusted. Yet you're willing to believe information from a man who quite openly breaks real life laws in exchange for isk? Sometimes I forget how many chumps play this game; then I look at my corps completed contracts list. ------
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:17:00 - [158] Originally by: NTRabbit Originally by: jeNK Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Anonymous Coward Sorry, I just don't believe categorical denials by BoB members. This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. Why? Because someone told you not to? Because you're jumping on the train of people who hate bob? I'd bet a lot on you saying this just because other people did. It just takes one guy to instigate a riot, as has been proven by this very thread. I still don't get why people don't get this. No, because you own alliance leaders have categoriacally confirmed they are willing to use underhand tactics. They have confirmed they have spies on "our" teamspeak. They have confirmed they have spies on "our" forums. They have confirmed they have alts in "our" corporations, and they have also confirmed they have no quarms with any of it. THAT is why BoB is untrusted. Yet you're willing to believe information from a man who quite openly breaks real life laws in exchange for isk? Sometimes I forget how many chumps play this game; then I look at my corps completed contracts list. Those same laws were broken by the "innocent" bob before Kugusumen even began. They were not privvy to those private blogs, yet posted them anyway. Publishing on a public domain that which is private, is not legal without consent.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:18:00 - [159] "You should not have devs playing this game on the live server. Period, end of story." Yes, we really want the game to be developed by people who have zero clue how it's being played where it really matters. I.e. on live server and especially in 0.0 space on alliance scale. One trainwreck of SWG wasn't enough for you people, you want another..? --;; "If devs want to play, they should play on the test server where what they can or can't do doesn't really matter." When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game...
La Tortura Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:19:00 - [160] Quote: Better yet. I was in IAC just a couple of days ago. Why should i suddenly be untrustworthy? For example because you feel now that you mede wrong decision leaving IAC. Anyway, why anybody would think otherwise, eg that you're thrustworthy? It is long time before anybody would trust a thing said by a bob member since now. -- ignorance is bliss
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:20:00 - [161] Originally by: j0sephine "You should not have devs playing this game on the live server. Period, end of story." Yes, we really want the game to be developed by people who have zero clue how it's being played where it really matters. I.e. on live server and especially in 0.0 space on alliance scale. One trainwreck of SWG wasn't enough for you people, you want another..? --;; "If devs want to play, they should play on the test server where what they can or can't do doesn't really matter." When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game... The problem isn't what they can do in an ingame sense j0sephine, it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game. Everyone should reserve judgement until Kieron comes back either way because none of this means anything until then.
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:22:00 - [162] Originally by: Reiisha Edited by: Reiisha on 31/01/2007 13:07:10 Originally by: Anonymous Coward Sorry, I just don't believe categorical denials by BoB members. This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. Why? Because someone told you not to? Because you're jumping on the train of people who hate bob? I'd bet a lot on you saying this just because other people did. It just takes one guy to instigate a riot, as has been proven by this very thread. I still don't get why people don't get this. Better yet. I was in IAC just a couple of days ago. Why should i suddenly be untrustworthy? Seeing as how you are a meatshield, pawn or whatever they are called, u clearly will not have access to all the information regarding this. You can't proove thats its not true either. Someone said bob did xyz. They showed some proof. Seems plausable at the very least. If bob are denying it, then there isn't much to do but wait and see. But you haven't so far shown any evidence that disprooves what was said. Until everything comes out, ur just speculating.
Faramare Foul Rodent	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:23:00 - [163] I wouldn't trust ANYONE's word about their own corp/alliance/community. The possibility the said person is non-informed or biased is just too big. Not that I'd believe anyone's word about aany single other corp/alliance/etc... No matter how the information was acquired, no matter how it was presented, the only thing that matters that the information is out. And it should be investigated. No one is guilty before proven such, but just the fact that there are so many doubts out there about unjust and bias of the Devs/GM's, it just needs to be cleared. And I sincerely hope CCP realise how big this thing already is, and what kind of repercussions it might have to the community if handled in wrong way.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:25:00 - [164] Originally by: Arched Originally by: Mitchman If this guy keeps hacking into forums, why don't someone put the law enforcement agencies on him? Systematic hacking like this is illegal and will be investigated in all countries I know of. That is the problem. What country is he from? Who is he. Just another name. I wonder if his CCP account details are even actually his. Regardless to that I personally think that GM's and Dev's have every right and to play this game, and play it just like the rest of us. I honestly dont doubt those were legitimate wins in the bpo lottery. If i was spawning myself bpo's it wouldn't be malediction and ****ty ammo bpo's (Sabre wasn't bad though) What needs to be done is very simple I think. Ban this Hacker. (His eve-online account) Ban any character that in ANY WAY links someone to his site. not just forum bans, but account bans for weeks if not months. I know it's third party, but it is within your realm to remove all linked people to a site that is maliciously attacking the privacy and information of the people who consume to this game. Ban him, Permanently. Ban anything that connects people in anyway to his site. Remove his ability to influence anything in this game. Make a stand. We are seeing a very hostile level of escalation and i can see no other option to resolving the issue. CCP owns everything here. the forums, EVE, our characters. EXERT THAT POWER. Yes, very smart. Because outside of Eve and these forums, the internet does not exist. Ban him here, and in a day this story will be on slashdot, gamespy and every other game-site there is. That is, if it isn't on there already. You can't bury this. You can ignore it and hope it goes away, you can try to investigate and get clean (if there is anything to get clean about), but thinking you can bury this is a fantasy.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:28:00 - [165] Originally by: j0sephine "You should not have devs playing this game on the live server. Period, end of story." Yes, we really want the game to be developed by people who have zero clue how it's being played where it really matters. I.e. on live server and especially in 0.0 space on alliance scale. One trainwreck of SWG wasn't enough for you people, you want another..? --;; "If devs want to play, they should play on the test server where what they can or can't do doesn't really matter." When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game... Incorrect. A Developer will know specific information about the game, about bugs and about upcoming content. You don't need any kind of dev power ingame to tell a few mates about these bugs they can use, or the upcoming content they can prepare for. That is the kind of advantage an alliance can get from Dev-members. And in a game where preparation, logistics etc play such a huge role, getting a headstart can be crucial.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:29:00 - [166] "The problem isn't what they can do in an ingame sense j0sephine, it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game." This is a FUD. please tell me what specifically do you think they are privy to that's not published on the development pages, dev blogs, interviews, forum posts and test server months in advance before it hits the TQ... that has such gross impact on the shape of the game? Just one concrete example of unnanounced earth-shattering change of game mechanics that turned game world upside down without anyone being aware until it happened will do ^^ Keep in mind it's hardly a secret there's plenty of players who actually have better knowledge of this game than the devs themselves, as evidenced on quite regular basis both on the forums and whenever there's meetings organized between the devs and the players. Devs are people, too, they don't get EVE Uberness lvl.5 implanted in their skulls when they are hired by CCP -.o
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:29:00 - [167] Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 31/01/2007 13:25:56 Originally by: Reiisha This is exactly the kind of crap i'm talking about. Why? Because someone told you not to? Because you're jumping on the train of people who hate bob? I'd bet a lot on you saying this just because other people did. It just takes one guy to instigate a riot, as has been proven by this very thread. I still don't get why people don't get this. Probably because I see BoB members lie repeatedly and otherwise dance semantic games? And jeNK has a point. Quote: Better yet. I was in IAC just a couple of days ago. Why should i suddenly be untrustworthy? Even better yet, if you just recently joined BoB, did you also get a directorship and access to their command forums? Because I think it's somewhat amusing that somebody who just joined a few days ago is making statements like this: Quote: It's just hilarious to see people who know absolutely nothing about anything relating to this coming in and speaking like they know everything. Again, they are idiots, and i really hope they don't start attacking me for saying this, but realizing what the hell they're doing and start to stop behaving like this. So, do you have that access? Perhaps there are things going on outside your knowledge.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:30:00 - [168] Well, this is interesting. Although I'm sure that most Bob members have done no wrong, it would be interesting to see if any members with "special powers" tried to buy their way up the chain of command in corps and what the people in charge knew about it. There's an awfull lot of things one can find out from forum SQL dumps and combining it with other data. About the theft of the SQL db itself, I don't see how CCP is involved there, that's a criminal case and should be reported to the proper authorities. I foresee a ****storm coming... -- .sig apathy ftw
Karunel Princeps Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:31:00 - [169] Quote: I don't know why everyone is jumping the ***** bandwagon on both sides. CCP is doing an investigation, get some patience and wait for a bit. ugh Why do that when you can.... ...RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!1eleventyone Originally by:** elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:32:00 - [170] Originally by: Malachon Draco Yes, very smart. Because outside of Eve and these forums, the internet does not exist. Ban him here, and in a day this story will be on slashdot, gamespy and every other game-site there is. That is, if it isn't on there already. If you only knew.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:34:00 - [171] Originally by: j0sephine "The problem isn't what they can do in an ingame sense j0sephine, it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game." This is a FUD. please tell me what specifically do you think they are privy to that's not published on the development pages, dev blogs, interviews, forum posts and test server months in advance before it hits the TQ... that has such gross impact on the shape of the game? Just one concrete example of unnanounced earth-shattering change of game mechanics that turned game world upside down without anyone being aware until it happened will do ^^ Keep in mind it's hardly a secret there's plenty of players who actually have better knowledge of this game than the devs themselves, as evidenced on quite regular basis both on the forums and whenever there's meetings organized between the devs and the players. Devs are people, too, they don't get EVE Uberness lvl.5 implanted in their skulls when they are hired by CCP -.o It's not my job to change your mind about things that could present a conflict of interest in certain circumstances. I'm not saying that anything happened. Wait and see before you speculate one way or another.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:36:00 - [172] Originally by: j0sephine "The problem isn't what they can do in an ingame sense j0sephine, it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game." This is a FUD. please tell me what specifically do you think they are privy to that's not published on the development pages, dev blogs, interviews, forum posts and test server months in advance before it hits the TQ... that has such gross impact on the shape of the game? Ummmmm........Source code...
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:36:00 - [173] I like this thread, it shows which people have some problems and are most likely better off to stop playing this game.
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:36:00 - [174] While this whole thing could be forged, I think it totally stinks that some powerful alliance gets intricate knowledge of the game (be it whatever it was) no other player could have ever gotten. I think it's time for CCP to make their employee policy regarding participating in the live game more strict. Because it is unfair... My EVE feelings are hurt. Now you know it... ...now in RED
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:38:00 - [175] "Incorrect. A Developer will know specific information about the game, about bugs and about upcoming content." As will anyone who actually play this game, reads this site and bothers to visit the test server. Want to know some of the upcoming content? The NPC rats will be reduced in numbers and increased in strength. The outpost will get upgradeable parts that can be disabled by enemy. It will be possible to lock down constellations if you have sovereignty of them. There will be new system added to ships that allows you to overcharge the modules at the risk of damaging them. ****, i must be dev to be privy to this info. Busted.
Reiisha Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:38:00 - [176] People only believe that BoB lies and hacks because the people who went to war with them lost. It's that simple. BoB doesn't lie. BoB doesn't hack. It's that simple. Why should you believe me? Ask yourself another question. Why should you believe the people who say otherwise? Draw your own conclusions. Don't let people make them for you. Just think about this before you start trolling BoB again 'because they lie, steal and cheat'. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:45:00 - [177] I'll be damned if BoB, LV and the rest are using GM's to hlep them. I'll be watching this closly. Pwnage PvP Recruitment
Sharken Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:45:00 - [178] Edited by: Sharken on 31/01/2007 13:42:53 This is a very delicate situation, and i hope that CCP will handle it. Watching this space closely
Gutsani The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:47:00 - [179] Edited by: Gutsani on 31/01/2007 13:49:43 Originally by: Dracorimus Are you really this stupid ? Or did you have to work hard at it ? With this post I would assume the latter applies..... Nice picture you have of yourselve in your signature. Anything constructive to say little boy? Originally by: prsr About the theft of the SQL db itself, I don't see how CCP is involved there, that's a criminal case and should be reported to the proper authorities. The problem is, then you have to agree that your SQL DB was actually compromised. Which leads to the fact that the information posted on that guys forum is valid... Seems to me like throwing a stone through your own window. Action-Reaction the third law of Newton. Forces work in both directions. And the fact that small scale computer crime hardly ever gets pulled to court .. I think the cyber crime departments have better and more usefull things to do then care about some database that gotten stolen. Originally by: j0sephine Stuff Well, give me the algorithms used to divide the T2 BPO's then? Or the one's used to spawn exploration stuff? Or the one's used to spawn faction rats? Or the one's used to drop decent loot? Or tell me who petitioned magz last time? Being a dev also allows insight into the TQ database, which contains critical information about people. I'm sure Kieron can give this information, being a dev. While .. lets say DS cant. Well .. /me awaits a kieron responce to his former post. ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
La Tortura Infinite Style Incorporated Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:49:00 - [180] Just a short list of losely related issues, to sum it up - someone tried to buy out Expanded Cargohold BPO's a week before they magically turn up into Expanded Cargohold II BPO's. Was this issue investigated? Was IP of the alt who posted the topic on the forum compared with IP's of people playing the game to find out where was the likely source of the leak? - a pimped out with officer mods scorp was blown up and looted in 0.0. They said it was a mistake of a newbie GM who wanted to show off or whatnot, which costed him his job, but it more seems like that scorp was just blown up by the wrong people, not by those who supposed to have it done. - Strategically placed G pos was atacked by Aurora event dreads with the support of F-E (and maybe ATUK as well, dun remeber) in the middle of the war. - A Hel had been put as an ISD event reward for some pos stuff worth about 4B total and shortly after was claimed by an LV corp. Lately it was found out that all event plans for a halfyear was somewhat compromised, but AFAIK there were no consequences on that particular case. - And now these hacked logs, that prove that info about events was leaked from CCP, that CCP members had/have key positions in one of alliances, that these members left to that alliance some T2 bpos for free after they had to leave it, that alliance leaders well knew who there these members etc etc etc, too much stuff to write. -- ignorance is bliss
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:50:00 - [181] "It's not my job to change your mind about things that could present a conflict of interest in certain circumstances. I'm not saying that anything happened. Wait and see before you speculate one way or another." While you tell me to wait and see, you are openly speculating about devs' possible and theoretical abuse of power that they 'clearly must be doing so we should keep them away from the game for the sake of it' ... here and now. Sorry, but if you* are going to speculate about the big bad devs screwing everyone for a few virtual trinkets, am going to point out just how petty, narrowminded and childish it is. If you want me to stop, sit quiet and wait yourself rather than try to get the mob all fired up and screaming for blood. *) generic 'you'
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:50:00 - [182] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 13:51:16 Originally by: Pesadel0 I don¦t give a ** about BoB ,Goons or any aliance ,but if this "dev" was giving some kind of information,intel to a particular Alliance he should be fired. About the "hacker" he did more good than wrong ,basically i don¦t give a rats ass about your out off the game tactics ,because everyone uses it.And the barrier has been broken by BoB now it has escalated. I'am watching this thread closely Because my permanency in EVE depends in it. Hmm, I must fail to find the good in this I'm afraid. This isn't some ingame random stuff. This isn't like us mocking ascn leaders. This would be equivelent to us releasing cyvok's real name on the net, what he does and what he is up too. He is making rubbish up and attacking individuals playing the game by releasing REAL LIFE information about them. Their real life names and is stating without any evidence at all that they work for CCP. If you can see good in that then I'm sorry but I'm afraid that as someone in the industry I would have to massively disagree with you. Trying to break up rkk is one thing but destroying people's lives is something completely different. If any of those players did happen to be in RKK then don't you think that CCP would have been keeping a very close eye on them, even more than anyone else to make sure they were playing on the level. And come on, this many devs in rkk and more incoming? Seriously, you guys need to open your eyes and stop believing everything you read. I'll tell you the conclusion of this, no-one will lose their jobs and no-one will be found guilty of any wrong doing because I have full access to our forums and I know that there is nothing in there that will confirm any of this rubbish he is making up. Right now, Kugutsmen is stating that he will stop if I am kicked from BoB or he gets a moship. That is his price for potentially destroying the real life of someone. If you guys can't see the difference then seriously, I am pretty sickened by that. I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality. If peeps are willing to go that far to get me out of the game then I'm not convinced this is a game I will particularly be playing for much longer because who knows where it will end. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto**
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:53:00 - [183] Originally by: La Tortura Just a short list of losely related issues, to sum it up - someone tried to buy out Expanded Cargohold BPO's a week before they magically turn up into Expanded Cargohold II BPO's. Was this issue investigated? Was IP of the alt who posted the topic on the forum compared with IP's of people playing the game to find out where was the likely source of the leak? - a pimped out with officer mods scorp was blown up and looted in 0.0. They said it was a mistake of a newbie GM who wanted to show off or whatnot, which costed him his job, but it more seems like that scorp was just blown up by the wrong people, not by those who supposed to have it done. - Strategically placed G pos was atacked by Aurora event dreads with the support of F-E (and maybe ATUK as well, dun remeber) in the middle of the war. - A Hel had been put as an ISD event reward for some pos stuff worth about 4B total and shortly after was claimed by an LV corp. Lately it was found out that all event plans for a halfyear was somewhat compromised, but AFAIK there were no consequences on that particular case. - And now these hacked logs, that prove that info about events was leaked from CCP, that CCP members had/have key positions in one of alliances, that these members left to that alliance some T2 bpos for free after they had to leave it, that alliance leaders well knew who there these members etc etc etc, too much stuff to write. Thank you very much for summing this up nicely, good post.
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 13:58:00 - [184] Edited by: Christopher Scott on 31/01/2007 13:56:58 Edited by: Christopher Scott on 31/01/2007 13:55:26 Originally by: DB Preacher Hmm, I must fail to find the good in this I'm afraid. This isn't some ingame random stuff. This isn't like us mocking ascn leaders. This would be equivelent to us releasing cyvok's real name on the net, what he does and what he is up too. He is making rubbish up and attacking individuals playing the game by releasing REAL LIFE information about them. Their real life names and is stating without any evidence at all that they work for CCP. If you can see good in that then I'm sorry but I'm afraid that as someone in the industry I would have to massively disagree with you. Trying to break up rkk is one thing but destroying people's lives is something completely different. If any of those players did happen to be in RKK then don't you think that CCP would have been keeping a very close eye on them, even more than anyone else to make sure they were playing on the level. And come on, this many devs in rkk and more incoming? Seriously, you guys need to open your eyes and stop believing everything you read. I'll tell you the conclusion of this, no-one will lose their jobs and no-one will be found guilty of any wrong doing because I have full access to our forums and I know that there is nothing in there that will confirm any of this rubbish he is making up. Right now, Kugutsmen is stating that he will stop if I am kicked from BoB or he gets a moship. That is his price for potentially destroying the real life of someone. If you guys can't see the difference then seriously, I am pretty sickened by that. I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality. If peeps are willing to go that far to get me out of the game then I'm not convinced this is a game I will particularly be playing for much longer because who knows where it will end. dbp No offense, but your leader is the one that gave out his RL information and threatened RL consequences to him publicly on these boards. Screen-shotted before he edited it out, so don't bother telling me PROOF or STFU. Talk about being a hypocrite. Edit: Oh, and check out my new sig: Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:02:00 - [185] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 13:59:53 I see, so because someone posted in haste and then removed it instantly then you are quite happy with this guy releasing real life information on people within eve regardless of where that might lead? An eye for an eye in pure and utter hatred styles? Do people not see the difference between real life and this game? Have you become so deluded that you honestly think that what he is posting is funny? dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:03:00 - [186] It doesn't really matter what the Developers or GM's actually do; there is a horrible suspicion that this isn't a balanced game. That is, what happens in the game is NOT due to skill or luck. If this suspicion is allowed to fester it will become a pervasive cancer that eats away at the game's credibility. Consider it this way; what would happen to a Casino if its patrons came to a view that the croupiers were corrupt and the people who supervised them were in on it? As for BOB pilots crying foul and saying "who me" - when your leadership openly boasts about networks of spies, interdicting teamspeak coms and the like; you create a perception; one inimical to your cause. To then say you would never stoop to hacking just lacks credibility - irrespective of the truth. Based on your leadership's past public comments in these very forums I would not put anything past your Alliance and that is a real tragedy as no one really doubts you are gifted PvPers. The shroud of secrecy must be lifted and lifted quickly; the problem is that CCP's employees have rights too. Rights that must be respected or CCP deserves all that happens to them. So I too will wait for the final word. But CCP you are on notice. This is a serious issue. It goes to YOUR credibility to manage a game effectively and fairly. And credibility is like virginity - once lost never regained!
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:05:00 - [187] I'm a little confused as to why people are shouting "Bob did it too". Yes they spied, but they used "ingame" means to do so. The had chars join thier enemies and inflitrate them, those chars were given access to forums and TS/vent. This seems like a very clever spie network to me, wish I had thought of it first really. Whats happened here, is someone has hacked (which, IIRC, is illegal in most countries) web servers and such to gain information. Also, I was told that there was a .de eve website that gave out IP addresses of thier users to D2 members (not 100% sure about that fact), but IIRC, handing out that sort of information is illegal too as it breaches privacy acts in a couple of countries. So, again, someone please explain to me how BoB's spieing and this information gathering seems to be the same? Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Microsoft Sam Red Army Inc	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:06:00 - [188] Originally by: Velios All this spying / hacking / eavesdropping and other underground methods are ruining eve. Why don't people that are into this stuff get a bloody life and go use their skills for something constructive, like tracking pedo's or terrorists down. You know... something important. Why would they want to hunt themselves?
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:07:00 - [189] Edited by: Garia666 on 31/01/2007 14:05:40 Well CCP does your face look BLUE.. I feel sorry for BoB because this is very bad for there name. However it will be ignorant to think that CCP didn`t knew of a GM playing with an alliance. Of course they know however they only take action now that the community finds out. EVE isn`t a place where you can accept a fair treatment of its creators. I have seen that proven once to many times. By this statement they try to patch there wounds by banning or kicking a GM. And point all the fingers to him.. this is all a big joke ->My Vids<- CCP= More skilz more moneh!
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:09:00 - [190] Originally by: j0sephine "It's not my job to change your mind about things that could present a conflict of interest in certain circumstances. I'm not saying that anything happened. Wait and see before you speculate one way or another." While you tell me to wait and see, you are openly speculating about devs' possible and theoretical abuse of power that they 'clearly must be doing so we should keep them away from the game for the sake of it' ... here and now. Sorry, but if you* are going to speculate about the big bad devs screwing everyone for a few virtual trinkets, am going to point out just how petty, narrowminded and childish it is. If you want me to stop, sit quiet and wait yourself rather than try to get the mob all fired up and screaming for blood. *) generic 'you' Show me where I speculated anything you silly person.
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:11:00 - [191] DBP, only you have the power to make the whole thing stop. So make a move, and stop begging for people's pity over "destroying people's RL" BOB (as are other alliances - don't missundertand me) aren't known for beeing involved in morale discussions, more for "doing whatever it takes to achieve it's goals" so, in my point of view, you've already been to far in your "so-called" gaming experience... ...time to use the handbrake.
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:11:00 - [192] So the proof is IP logs? It's funny because I logged onto forums when I was doing EVETV, from CCP. Most of the rest of the rest of the team did, and they sure as hell aren't devs. However, we must be since, like, the logs show it... You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:14:00 - [193] Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 31/01/2007 14:05:40 Well CCP does your face look BLUE.. I feel sorry for BoB because this is very bad for there name. However it will be ignorant to think that CCP didn`t knew of a GM playing with an alliance. Of course they know however they only take action now that the community finds out. EVE isn`t a place where you can accept a fair treatment of its creators. I have seen that proven once to many times. By this statement they try to patch there wounds by banning or kicking a GM. And point all the fingers to him.. this is all a big joke It's true that I personnaly feel bad for the Real Persons in the BOB alliance who invested time, love and friendship into their own alliance without knowing what was realy happening... I hope this makes sense.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:15:00 - [194] Originally by: Ifni So the proof is IP logs? It's funny because I logged onto forums when I was doing EVETV, from CCP. Most of the rest of the rest of the team did, and they sure as hell aren't devs. However, we must be since, like, the logs show it... Hundreds of posts were made from the same IP address.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:18:00 - [195] Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 14:16:09 "Show me where I speculated anything you silly person." "The problem (..) it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game." Isn't theoretical musing on what one could do with --equally theoretical-- power they hold exactly that, a speculation..? (speculate: to think or wonder about the subject)
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:19:00 - [196] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 14:16:11 Originally by: gofoi DBP, only you have the power to make the whole thing stop. So make a move, and stop begging for people's pity over "destroying people's RL" BOB (as are other alliances - don't missundertand me) aren't known for beeing involved in morale discussions, more for "doing whatever it takes to achieve it's goals" so, in my point of view, you've already been to far in your "so-called" gaming experience... ...time to use the handbrake. Begging for pity? You are very much mistaken if you think that was the point of my post. Remove yourself from the fact that it's BoB and start separating real life from the game. Anyway, I can see that posting here is pointless while people are sitting with thier head in the sands believing whatever kugutsmen feeds them so I'll shut up again. I mean look at this dude: Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Ifni So the proof is IP logs? It's funny because I logged onto forums when I was doing EVETV, from CCP. Most of the rest of the rest of the team did, and they sure as hell aren't devs. However, we must be since, like, the logs show it... Hundreds of posts were made from the same IP address. OMG KUGUTSMEN SAID IT WAS SO!!!!!111111 Seriously, idiots. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:20:00 - [197] Well, this one certainly snuck up on me. I guess the only thing to say is: All those abusing their powers should be fired from CCP employ and perma-banned from the game, extremely fast. All those players who wilfully knew about any abuse should be banned aswell, as they were just as much violating the EULA. On the flip side, I hope anyone who has been wrongfully acused or victimised by a smear campaign should be publicly cleared, so the stigma of the whole affair can be removed from their heads, once and for all. I, like everyone here, will be following this very closely. -----------------------------------------------
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:20:00 - [198] Originally by: j0sephine "Show me where I speculated anything you silly person." "The problem (..) it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game." Isn't theoretical musing on what one could do with power they hold exactly that, a speculation..? (speculate: to think or wonder about the subject) That was an answer to your musing about what a dev could possibly do outside of having super dev powers in game. It's not speculation.
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:20:00 - [199] Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Ifni So the proof is IP logs? It's funny because I logged onto forums when I was doing EVETV, from CCP. Most of the rest of the rest of the team did, and they sure as hell aren't devs. However, we must be since, like, the logs show it... Hundreds of posts were made from the same IP address. Oh well then, theres the proof! Stop the presses! You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
Kryztal Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:20:00 - [200] I shouldnt really be replying to this as its already a flaming thread. You people that are going omg omg hes just spying just like BoB does. We have never hacked our way into anyones forums its all been done through regular groundwork. We have never to my knowledge posted personal info about anyone in EvE. We arent talking about Chars and Alts here we are talking about real name, address, profession etc. If he was to post about how BL has a fetish for amarrian slaves it would be diffrent cos its Ingame. These things are stuff that doesnt belong on any forums. Its a game and to be honest if anyone of you think its ok then send me your names and address, phone numbers and shoe size and ill start spamming forums with them. I have no interest in seeing my name on this forums or any other forum. The thing that ccp should be investigating is how anthonyz is impacting the community. Today its BoB tomorrow it will be another alliance/corp hes hacked his way into. The forums are a part of the game wether ccp admit it or not so they need to make a stand on it and start doing something. Without private corp/alliance forums, eve wouldnt be what it is. This guy is breaking the law and yes nothing really you can do on a individual level but do CCP care atleast ? Do they care that a menance has hacked himself into alot of eve related forums and is using RL information gathered there to blackmail for ingame stuff ? Cos if CCP dont care then why are we really paying for the game, i didnt sign up and pay for the past 3 years only to have some low life dig up my RL info and post it on forums for everyone to abuse it. What CCP really should be investigating is what they can do to make this guy stop. But atm ive got a feeling they dont care anyway.
aggro Minmatar Black Lance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:24:00 - [201] personally the whole thing stinks. people who use out of game tactics like hacking forums etc are the lowest of the low. BOB started this type of hacks and now other people think this is the norm. CCP NEED TO SORT THIS AND QUICK TO REGAIN SOME RESPECTABLITY Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO
Reiisha Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:24:00 - [202] Originally by: gofoi Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 31/01/2007 14:05:40 Well CCP does your face look BLUE.. I feel sorry for BoB because this is very bad for there name. However it will be ignorant to think that CCP didn`t knew of a GM playing with an alliance. Of course they know however they only take action now that the community finds out. EVE isn`t a place where you can accept a fair treatment of its creators. I have seen that proven once to many times. By this statement they try to patch there wounds by banning or kicking a GM. And point all the fingers to him.. this is all a big joke It's true that I personnaly feel bad for the Real Persons in the BOB alliance who invested time, love and friendship into their own alliance without knowing what was realy happening... I hope this makes sense. Tell me, do you know what is really happening? This isn't a flame, this is to show the general state of mind people are in right now. They aren't thinking this out far enough. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:24:00 - [203] Originally by: DB Preacher OMG KUGUTSMEN SAID IT WAS SO!!!!!111111 Seriously, idiots. Well, we're going to find out, aren't we? Besides, I'm inclined to put more stock in what he's saying than you are--particularly since you just admitted that you have a very vested interest in this.
Otellus Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:26:00 - [204] Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: gofoi Originally by: Garia666 Edited by: Garia666 on 31/01/2007 14:05:40 Well CCP does your face look BLUE.. I feel sorry for BoB because this is very bad for there name. However it will be ignorant to think that CCP didn`t knew of a GM playing with an alliance. Of course they know however they only take action now that the community finds out. EVE isn`t a place where you can accept a fair treatment of its creators. I have seen that proven once to many times. By this statement they try to patch there wounds by banning or kicking a GM. And point all the fingers to him.. this is all a big joke It's true that I personnaly feel bad for the Real Persons in the BOB alliance who invested time, love and friendship into their own alliance without knowing what was realy happening... I hope this makes sense. Tell me, do you know what is really happening? This isn't a flame, this is to show the general state of mind people are in right now. They aren't thinking this out far enough. I think I know what is happening. I think CCP is worrying whether or not this is gonna be their grave.
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:27:00 - [205] I still find it amazing you're calling him a hacker, personally.
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:27:00 - [206] Originally by: DB Preacher Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 14:16:11 Originally by: gofoi DBP, only you have the power to make the whole thing stop. So make a move, and stop begging for people's pity over "destroying people's RL" BOB (as are other alliances - don't missundertand me) aren't known for beeing involved in morale discussions, more for "doing whatever it takes to achieve it's goals" so, in my point of view, you've already been to far in your "so-called" gaming experience... ...time to use the handbrake. Remove yourself from the fact that it's BoB and start separating real life from the game. I personaly have lots of friends who are part of BOB, dbp. My message wasn't adressed to them. My reply was for you, prove us that all those logs are fake, manipulated and that we have no reason to believe what's on that blog. If, and only if, you have those evidencies, I'm sure everybody would enjoy having them. But until now, having "OMG KUGUTSMEN SAID IT WAS SO!!!!!111111" as your main counter argument brings you nowhere.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:29:00 - [207] Originally by: aggro personally the whole thing stinks. people who use out of game tactics like hacking forums etc are the lowest of the low. BOB started this type of hacks and now other people think this is the norm. Seriously, get over yourself. We have never, nor will we ever, hack, ddos, or otherwise use OUT OF GAME means to gain ANY advantage. Your continued belief that we do shows just how badly you want to hate us, it's quite heartening :) Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Spoon	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:29:00 - [208] CCP isnt going to post any results from this. Even if they do find anything. Like they always have done. Tbh though I dont care. Because this whole thing is a farse anyway. The sourc eof th eifnormation was unreliable and best and from a questionable methods of getting it. I cant even be bothered to spell check this post its just not worth the effort.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:30:00 - [209] Originally by: jeNK I still find it amazing you're calling him a hacker, personally. What would you call it? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:30:00 - [210] Originally by: Reiisha It's true that I personnaly feel bad for the Real Persons in the BOB alliance who invested time, love and friendship into their own alliance without knowing what was realy happening... I hope this makes sense. Tell me, do you know what is really happening? This isn't a flame, this is to show the general state of mind people are in right now. They aren't thinking this out far enough. I understand don't worry. No, it's true that we still have to say "free until proven guilty" (?). So of course not, i don't know what is happening, sadly, as most of the rest of EVE.
Sunder Tseng Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:32:00 - [211] Originally by: NTRabbit Yet you're willing to believe information from a man who quite openly breaks real life laws in exchange for isk? Sometimes I forget how many chumps play this game; then I look at my corps completed contracts list. Just so we're clear, you are aware that pretexting to gain access to sensitive information or items is illegal in most countries, like hacking, right? Originally by: DB Preacher Hmm, I must fail to find the good in this I'm afraid. This isn't some ingame random stuff. This isn't like us mocking ascn leaders. This would be equivelent to us releasing cyvok's real name on the net, what he does and what he is up too. He is making rubbish up and attacking individuals playing the game by releasing REAL LIFE information about them. Their real life names and is stating without any evidence at all that they work for CCP. If you can see good in that then I'm sorry but I'm afraid that as someone in the industry I would have to massively disagree with you. I find it very difficult to believe that you're going to take this stance after one of you bobbits stated that you had called kugutsumen's office trying to get him fired. Seems to me you just get upset when dirty laundry related to your buddies is thrown outside. ---- it is a tale/Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,/Signifying nothing.
UKM Thorgrim Caldari Black Lance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:34:00 - [212] Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 31/01/2007 14:31:19 OOO WELL Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 31/01/2007 14:30:51 These comments are not one one of my CORP or ALLIANCE. ONLY MY OWN Honour & Steel.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:36:00 - [213] Originally by: j0sephine "Ummmmm........Source code..." You mean the same source code that handles billboards that CCP no longer have clue how it works, because the guy who had made it moved on? Source code isn't some sort of silver bullet, anyone who seriously programs anything will know this. It's just bunch of spaghetti that is likely to give you headache when you're trying to figure out just what causes the most recent server overload. Believe it or not, there are actually some people who understand source code.
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:36:00 - [214] Originally by: DB Preacher Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 14:00:38 I see, so because someone posted in haste and then removed it instantly then you are quite happy with this guy releasing real life information on people within eve regardless of where that might lead? An eye for an eye in pure and utter hatred style? Do people not see the difference between real life and this game? Have you become so deluded that you honestly think that what he is posting is funny? dbp Don't even bother trying to save face. Not even half of the dirt on BoB is even public. There is a smoking gun full of bullets with your name on it, and only a few shots have been fired. The real fireworks show has yet to begun. The very little ground you stand on, acting like you never take things beyond the game, is going to crumble soon. But let's save that for another time. I'm not going to reveal much that hasn't already been. Everyone in BoB is flopping around these boards like dying fish, it's quite amusing. People love nothing more than to watch those who claw so mercilessly to the top fall striaght to the bottom. Karma at its greatest. BoB will be exposed for everything that it has done, everything that they have resorted to, and everything that they have trolled and flamed so heavily to deny. No, I'm not just talking about M0-. It goes much deeper than that. DB Preacher: Your ship is sinking. You know it. By the way, nice leaked alts list. We'll take it. Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:37:00 - [215] Originally by: DB Preacher If you can truly prove to me that it is not rycar I'll gladly hold my hands up and say I was wrong about that character. If you are serious about wanting to know the reason why then drop me a evemail ingame... no bs, no ulterior motives. dbp My darling dearest -dbp, you shouldn't start feeling obligated to apologize for flinging baseless accusations around all of a sudden; if you did, you'd spend every other post saying how sorry you are. But I am curious about where you're getting this particularly wacky bit of intel, so I'll try to contact you, fair enough. As you know I barely play the game and will mostly be on AIM/MSN/ICQ, so I'll have someone try to pry that info out of you and we can talk. And then I'll have to order the invasion of myself when the chatlog leaks.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:38:00 - [216] Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 14:34:50 Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: aggro personally the whole thing stinks. people who use out of game tactics like hacking forums etc are the lowest of the low. BOB started this type of hacks and now other people think this is the norm. Seriously, get over yourself. We have never, nor will we ever, hack, ddos, or otherwise use OUT OF GAME means to gain ANY advantage. Your continued belief that we do shows just how badly you want to hate us, it's quite heartening :) Dianabolic, did you not also say there were no devs in BOB? Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? Simple questions. Can you give simple answers to these without flaming? In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:40:00 - [217] Originally by: gofoi I personaly have lots of friends who are part of BOB, dbp. My message wasn't adressed to them. My reply was for you, prove us that all those logs are fake, manipulated and that we have no reason to believe what's on that blog. If, and only if, you have those evidencies, I'm sure everybody would enjoy having them. But until now, having "OMG KUGUTSMEN SAID IT WAS SO!!!!!111111" as your main counter argument brings you nowhere. Look, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with proving whether the logs or anything else is real or not. You know as well as anyone here that anyone can fabricate anything on the internet if they try hard enough. The very fact that you and everyone else will believe him over anything that I can say is fact of that. All I was saying was consider the real life aspect of this and make sure that you realise what this can lead too and what will happen if this continues. Just tell me this, how would you personally feel if someone released your full real life name, job, home address, phone number, credit card numbers and anything else easily traceable to hackers online? There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, this guy is crossing them by publically releasing the information. If he was so concerned about cheating, his very first port of call should have been CCP with all his evidence but instead he chose to release his stuff in little tit-bits to try and make it seem "more realistic". I've told you the facts above... nothing on those forums show that anyone in CCP is in RKK or have done anything to assist us and I am 100% certain that the investigation will show that nothing untoward has occured... much like the fact that Kugutsmen stated I was purchasing characters, which has obviously been disproven hence why I am still here because it is a lie. But hey, wait and see what CCP officially release in the end but just make sure that peeps wipe the slate clean with the characters being stated as cheats because if you don't then anyone doing so is as guilty as kugutsmen. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:40:00 - [218] i really hope that at the end of this whole thing bans will be handed out and apologies will be forced out of ppl. Be it either the dev and the ppl involved or be it the hacker and the dramaqueens. Because this is damaging the game in public in the eye of guys who are not part of this community. For us "you hacked" "you lagsploited" and all the other stuff are day to day work if youre reading the forums. No conflict without those claims. However this broke the border and it puts ppl off the game and taints eve name to those who dont play...
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:41:00 - [219] /me grins. ASCN forums get posted daily and BoB chestbeats. Suddenly when Bob forums start getting posted... ISD put up a new rule and suddenly 3rd party links are banned. So... one rule for some and one rule for another eh? New patch changes which ARE NOT IN THE PATCH NOTES... are used to great effect by BoB. Primarly... Cloaking Agros you. How many of the EVE community knew about that change? Its not in the patch notes... but is well known by BoB. Unfortualtly its not just these sort of events that are spoiling the game. Its this and more. the "Meta-gaming" that is going on is spoiling the game. It is CS in space. I'm still awaiting a proper response from higher up about the real reason CCP saw fit to spawn a crap load more complexes in Delve? (Ps. when did the show complexes dissappear from the map? Tinfoil? so we cant see the real distribution?) Tinfoil? na. PR to make BoB look nice and good... I'm also awaiting the promised events and other background storys that made eve great... which have all vanished into the PVP sinkhole. Factional warfare? The great wars coming between the NPCs? Sorry... its all flushed. Eve's 5yr plan is looking like lace net curtains... SJ. CLS Director =-
Morris Falter The Collective	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:42:00 - [220] What doesnt kill you will only make you stronger. Good luck to all involved with sorting this out - whatever the result.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:42:00 - [221] "That was an answer to your musing about what a dev could possibly do outside of having super dev powers in game. It's not speculation." Wait, let's get through it step by step * in response to someone claiming devs could abuse their powers i state devs have characters like regular players on TQ * you respond with 'but they have knowledge that could be used to shape events in game' i did not 'muse what a dev could do'. I did not ask what they could do (until you started theoretical speculations, then i asked for specific example to back that musing up) In short, this was your own statement... and if it's not speculation, then how will you call the mental process that spawned in your brain the thought "but a dev could use their knowledge to shape the game" that had no apparent back up in actual game events... which you then decided to post as the reply? o.O;
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:44:00 - [222] Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 14:41:01 Originally by: Christopher Scott Don't even bother trying to save face. Not even half of the dirt on BoB is even public. There is a smoking gun full of bullets with your name on it, and only a few shots have been fired. The real fireworks show has yet to begun. The very little ground you stand on, acting like you never take things beyond the game, is going to crumble soon. But let's save that for another time. I'm not going to reveal much that hasn't already been. Everyone in BoB is flopping around these boards like dying fish, it's quite amusing. People love nothing more than to watch those who claw so mercilessly to the top fall striaght to the bottom. Karma at its greatest. BoB will be exposed for everything that it has done, everything that they have resorted to, and everything that they have trolled and flamed so heavily to deny. No, I'm not just talking about M0-. It goes much deeper than that. DB Preacher: Your ship is sinking. You know it. By the way, nice leaked alts list. We'll take it. I hope you're roleplaying. If not, get help. But since you're talking about 'beyond the game' im going for the latter.
Niobe Farstar	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:45:00 - [223] Edited by: Niobe Farstar on 31/01/2007 14:41:35 Originally by: DB Preacher Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 13:51:16 This would be equivelent to us releasing cyvok's real name on the net...He is making rubbish up and attacking individuals playing the game by releasing REAL LIFE information about them. "He's breaching my IRL privacy!" "So you did the things he said you did?" "No I mean he's making stuff up!" "So he's not breaching your privacy?" "-dbp"
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:45:00 - [224] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: aggro personally the whole thing stinks. people who use out of game tactics like hacking forums etc are the lowest of the low. BOB started this type of hacks and now other people think this is the norm. Seriously, get over yourself. We have never, nor will we ever, hack, ddos, or otherwise use OUT OF GAME means to gain ANY advantage. Your continued belief that we do shows just how badly you want to hate us, it's quite heartening :) This reminds me of RL politician's responses like: "We don't have anything to do with this issue", but then it comes to light that somehow they were. ...now in RED
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:46:00 - [225] Originally by: Victor Vision Dianabolic, did you not also say there were no devs in BOB? We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev aswell, yes? Simple enough for you? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:47:00 - [226] In the end, BOB has nobody to blame but themselves. They HAD to have known Ishos was a dev or some sort of CCP employee and they let him in anyway. Funny that they only gave him director status after he supplied them with OODLES of T2 BPOs. . .but that's beside the point. They could have been pro-active and realized that having a dev be in their top management wasn't such a hot idea considering that a lot of people already believed they were getting CCP help. Of course. . .this would all be assuming that BOB was moral and wanted to stay clean and legit. BOBs entire schtick is "We're better than you and if you think we're cheating you're a tinfoil hatter." Now, that excuse is shot to hell and gone. Funny how they're running in here calling everyone idiots when the biggest idiot mistake was taking T2 BPOs from a CCP employee and letting him run an entire division. Also, c'mon BOB, this really is (like a lot of your members enjoyed saying to Cyvok) "reaping what you sow." Maybe if you'd played a little nicer on the forums instead of acting like you were all untouchable more people would be inclined to believe you over a hacker from Indonesia. But really. . .do we honestly expect CCP to do anything to their favorite children? DBP is still around a year after his transgressions. Seems like all you've gotta do when in BOB is run around screaming "Idiots!" and "Nu-uh! I didn't do nothing!" and you can get away with whatever ya please. Must be nice.... Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:49:00 - [227] Originally by: SamuraiJack /me grins. ASCN forums get posted daily and BoB chestbeats. Suddenly when Bob forums start getting posted... ISD put up a new rule and suddenly 3rd party links are banned. So... one rule for some and one rule for another eh? New patch changes which ARE NOT IN THE PATCH NOTES... are used to great effect by BoB. Primarly... Cloaking Agros you. How many of the EVE community knew about that change? Its not in the patch notes... but is well known by BoB. Unfortualtly its not just these sort of events that are spoiling the game. Its this and more. the "Meta-gaming" that is going on is spoiling the game. It is CS in space. I'm still awaiting a proper response from higher up about the real reason CCP saw fit to spawn a crap load more complexes in Delve? (Ps. when did the show complexes dissappear from the map? Tinfoil? so we cant see the real distribution?) Tinfoil? na. PR to make BoB look nice and good... I'm also awaiting the promised events and other background storys that made eve great... which have all vanished into the PVP sinkhole. Factional warfare? The great wars coming between the NPCs? Sorry... its all flushed. Eve's 5yr plan is looking like lace net curtains... People like you ruin the game. It's really sad to see people like you behave this way, i'm actually afraid they believe this to be their reality. What's wrong with you?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:49:00 - [228] rofl, ishos was promoted to cap ship guy without his request, because he knew what he was doing, I convinced him to do it, and we were thankful of it. BUT WAIT ONLY DEVS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Right? LMAO Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Reiisha Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:50:00 - [229] My last word on this, before i have a heart attack from the stress: 1) The devs play the game. This is a known fact ever since EVE was announced. It won't change after this, and i hope they keep playing it so they know what they do when they change something. I trust them to not abuse their position. If they get a T2 BPO it's because they won it from the lottery, not because they fiddled with it or anything else. 2) BoB does not hack or lie. Anyone who would do this wouldn't even be able to join any of the corps in the alliance, and even if someone managed to get through that they'd be kicked immediately. All of the BoB spying is done ingame. People make characters, apply for the enemy corp and play along - They do not force information out of people in any way. BoB spies like every other major alliance in the game does, namely, ingame. 3) You don't know me. How can you call me a liar or hacker? I feel very offended by this, and i have to ask you to please think of how you would feel and react when being accused of this. Please, think about what you are saying. I see many people coming with 'proof' that isn't proof. Anyone can type up a chatlog or a PM and forge it. It can't be disproven either in the same way. Screenshots can be faked aswell, and this has been proven (sense the irony?) a lot of times over. Eventually it's all coming down to trust. I trust the devs, and i trust them to handle any situation like this correctly. I trust the people i play with in BoB that they don't hack, lie or abuse any other powers, should they have them. What i don't trust is a known hacker who is trying to upset our community, and i hope people will see this before it really gets out of hand. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:51:00 - [230] "Suddenly when Bob forums start getting posted... ISD put up a new rule and suddenly 3rd party links are banned. So... one rule for some and one rule for another eh?" "Posting external links, chatlogs and information is permitted on the Corporation, Alliance & Organisation forums" I don't think that rule means what you think it means. (what gets removed is the stuff that breaks the general forum rules. Like speculations about dev in-game identitites, discussing moderation, etc)
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:52:00 - [231] Originally by: Dianabolic We have never, nor will we ever, hack, ddos, or otherwise use OUT OF GAME means to gain ANY advantage. I believe you. I'll even assume you actually would know if any of your members did. Of course it's no fun if someone starts selling information from a stolen forum database for ingame money, but how would this endanger anyones RL if nothing fishy was going on? I doubt CCP will take action if it becomes one persons word against the other persons word (or, stolen db copy vs. recent db copy). More evidence then some copy-pasting will have to be found before peoples jobs are on the line. Besides that, seeing that the event team can't keep their mouths shut about upcoming storylines and opportunities is kinda disheartening. It's like we're back 2 years in time and the profits from every single empire event wind up in the same peoples hands again. Although I think we're still supposed to believe that nothing fishy was going on there. Yea, things change thats for sure. One day you're developing an mmorpg with a few friends and looking for investors and the next moment you are in a position to create nice sums of real life money with the press of a button, must be hard to keep everyone in check. -- .sig apathy ftw
Angeles Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:53:00 - [232] when bob took BY-MSY station off us we pew pew'd it but the sheilds wouldnt go down, and someone had to come and fix it, shortly after fixing it a bob fleet was there to hinder our efforts.. coincedence? tbh i have no idea, just thought that little bug was handy, very handy indeed. YES i am sceptical about things i dont fully understand 100% including game mechanics/code ect. as for the T2 bpo, thats a hell of a lot of bpos we have chars in corp that were born with eve and they dont have half as many as that one char
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:53:00 - [233] Edited by: Christopher Scott on 31/01/2007 14:52:02 Originally by: Sinlare I hope you're roleplaying. If not, get help. But since you're talking about 'beyond the game' im going for the latter. I never take things beyond the game. I'm better than that. For example, I would never threaten a persons job security to ruin their life. Can't say the same for Sir Molle, though. I could give other examples, but I digress. Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:53:00 - [234] Originally by: DB Preacher You know as well as anyone here that anyone can fabricate anything on the internet if they try hard enough. The very fact that you and everyone else will believe him over anything that I can say is fact of that. Yes of course, but that Alt list sounds pretty accurate to me, why wouldn't the rest be? And, of course not, I wouldn't like my name to be handed to the public - it shouldn't even appear into the logs. But then, what would happen? No names? We'd have your ***** hordes saying "proof or stfu". But not this time, we have at our disposition something that can't be modified, changed or whatever by someone related to BOB or CCP. Either he just took too much time to actualy create all those logs to try to accuse BOB, either thoses logs are true and have existed, in wich case we won't see you and other "so-called-involved-people" anytime soon on those boards. But I'm quite sure that if all this story is true then CCP won't bother showing the exact results. I remain, as you probably are, very interested with the upcoming results of those investigations.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:53:00 - [235] Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 31/01/2007 14:50:14 Originally by: Niobe Farstar Edited by: Niobe Farstar on 31/01/2007 14:41:35 Originally by: DB Preacher Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 13:51:16 This would be equivelent to us releasing cyvok's real name on the net...He is making rubbish up and attacking individuals playing the game by releasing REAL LIFE information about them. "He's breaching my IRL privacy!" "So you did the things he said you did?" "No I mean he's making stuff up!" "So he's not breaching your privacy?" "-dbp" Indeed. So is the official BoB stance on this that he hacked your forums, but then has posted completely fraudulent made-up stuff and done heaven knows what with the real dirt?
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:55:00 - [236] Originally by: Dianabolic rofl, ishos was promoted to cap ship guy without his request, because he knew what he was doing, I convinced him to do it, and we were thankful of it. BUT WAIT ONLY DEVS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Right? LMAO Man. . .BOB really must be on a sinking ship. Even their retorts are getting confounded and stupid. Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:56:00 - [237] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev aswell, yes? Simple enough for you? Man this is pittyfull you're acting like a little kid trying to hide a stolen lollipop from his mom. You did not answer Victor's question : did you accept or not a bpo from a DEV?
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:59:00 - [238] So we have been imagining BoB on the old ASCN TS? Imagining the hacking and trawling of the ASCN forums? Do not discuss moderator action - please email [email protected] - hutch Sorry... You can call tinfoil all you want. It looks definitly like favouritism to me. SJ. CLS Director =-
Ifni Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:59:00 - [239] Originally by: gofoi You did not answer Victor's question : did you accept or not a bpo from a DEV? Is Dian on trial? You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:59:00 - [240] Originally by: j0sephine "That was an answer to your musing about what a dev could possibly do outside of having super dev powers in game. It's not speculation." Wait, let's get through it step by step * in response to someone claiming devs could abuse their powers i state devs have characters like regular players on TQ * you respond with 'but they have knowledge that could be used to shape events in game' i did not 'muse what a dev could do'. I did not ask what they could do (until you started theoretical speculations, then i asked for specific example to back that musing up) In short, this was your own statement... and if it's not speculation, then how will you call the mental process that spawned in your brain the thought "but a dev could use their knowledge to shape the game" that had no apparent back up in actual game events... which you then decided to post as the reply? o.O; You said When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game... This is a question. I said The problem isn't what they can do in an ingame sense j0sephine, it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game. This is an answer. Let me clarify this for you a little because you seem to be struggling with it. It is not speculation on any event, it was an attempt to answer something you asked. I'm sorry I tried because I want no part in this pointless argument. If you bother to read what else I said in my post then you could maybe drop this, or you could infer something else and we can continue this little dance.
Sunder Tseng Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 14:59:00 - [241] Originally by: Dianabolic rofl, ishos was promoted to cap ship guy without his request, because he knew what he was doing, I convinced him to do it, and we were thankful of it. BUT WAIT ONLY DEVS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Right? LMAO Question: Did you, or did you not, know that Ishos was a dev prior to his leaving RKK ---- it is a tale/Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,/Signifying nothing.
Godolphin Caldari Black Omega Security Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:01:00 - [242] Just read prevoius POSTS OMFG!!!! if its true its what i have always thought!!! BOB = CCP or Band of CCP... think lots of peeps will think off moving on from the game if this happens...SHAME ON U!!!
NTRabbit Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:01:00 - [243] Originally by: gofoi Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev aswell, yes? Simple enough for you? Man this is pittyfull you're acting like a little kid trying to hide a stolen lollipop from his mom. You did not answer Victor's question : did you accept or not a bpo from a DEV? Yes Dianabolic, answer the question - are you now or have you ever been a member of the American Communist Party? ------
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:02:00 - [244] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 15:01:18 Originally by: gofoi Either he just took too much time to actualy create all those logs to try to accuse BOB, Or, more realistically, he took some snippets of private convo's and made them appear to be much more than they are with smart editing and random open-ended conjecture and the eve-public, looking for BoB to be made a scapegoat regardless of the real life consequences, lapped it up. Originally by: gofoi either thoses logs are true and have existed, in wich case we won't see you and other "so-called-involved-people" anytime soon on those boards. Exactly. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:03:00 - [245] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Dianabolic, did you not also say there were no devs in BOB? We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? Ok, so you never said there were no devs in BOB. By the way, do you mind reading? My opinion on devs playing on TQ can be found in this thread, it is a few minutes old. It is pretty similar to your opinion. Linky. Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev aswell, yes? Simple enough for you? No, not simple enough. In fact you are sidestepping the question. Let me repeat: Did you or did you not recieve t2 BPOs from a dev char? A simple yes or no will clear this up. In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:04:00 - [246] Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:05:18 Originally by: SamuraiJack So we have been imagining BoB on the old ASCN TS? Imagining the hacking and trawling of the ASCN forums? And when the BoB forums start getting posted on here then ISD acts? After months of the crap being done to us? Sorry... You can call tinfoil all you want. It looks definitly like favouritism to me. Hacking is a crime. Ingame spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. Being bitter about having your ass handed to you isn't always an acceptable excuse for poor conduct. For all the pathetic bandwagoning lamers, quit crying. Wait for the investigation to reach a conclusion. Another thing to add is that regardless of the Dev being in BoB this is a matter CCP must investigate. BoB members dont know if there is a Dev. If any foul play has been comitted its up to CCP to resolve it and handle the issues. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
NTRabbit Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:05:00 - [247] Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Dianabolic, did you not also say there were no devs in BOB? We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? Ok, so you never said there were no devs in BOB. By the way, do you mind reading? My opinion on devs playing on TQ can be found in this thread, it is a few minutes old. It is pretty similar to your opinion. Linky. Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev aswell, yes? Simple enough for you? No, not simple enough. In fact you are sidestepping the question. Let me repeat: Did you or did you not recieve t2 BPOs from a dev char? A simple yes or no will clear this up. A simple question for thee, Dianabolic - art thou now, or hath thy ever been a witch? ------
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:06:00 - [248] Originally by: gofoi Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev aswell, yes? Simple enough for you? Man this is pittyfull you're acting like a little kid trying to hide a stolen lollipop from his mom. You did not answer Victor's question : did you accept or not a bpo from a DEV? Name the devs and I'll answer each one individually, the answer is alread there. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:06:00 - [249] Originally by: kieron CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. Continuing to post information from third party sites, spamming the forums, breaking the forum rules, etc. will not speed along the investigative process. Post discussion in this thread and please follow the forum rules. To put it bluntly, CCP's impartiality has been called into question. Therefore, strong measures need to be taken to restore faith in the impartiality of the system THAT MEANS END THE SECRECY. I understand that certain details would need to be suppressed (IE names), but the results of the investigation, and the steps taken to prove that your GM's are impartial need to be provided to the community. If you don't understand what happens when the umpire's can't be trusted, just read up on Darrell Hair and what damage that is caused when the impartiality of umpires is called into question. Justice should not only be done, but should be seen to be done. And right now, in this game, we can't see it being done, so how can we trust that is being done? Having been on the end of some dubious GM decisions myself (how was it my fault that our POS got exploited by a known bug?), the lack of transparency makes it difficult to see or trust what is happening. Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:07:00 - [250] I'm just sitting here laughing at the BoB bloc with this "are you a communist/witch" hilarity. The truth never damages a just cause. And it's a damned simple question.
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 - [251] Edited by: jeNK on 31/01/2007 15:04:38 Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: jeNK I still find it amazing you're calling him a hacker, personally. What would you call it? Someone who has a friend.. EDIT: in convinient places.
demandforbrains	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 - [252] Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. Being bitter about having your ass handed to you isn't always acceptable excuse for poor conduct. Pretexting is pretty illegal in a lot of places, buddy
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 - [253] Oh, and communism and witchcraft go hand in hand :D Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
NTRabbit Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 - [254] Originally by: Anonymous Coward I'm just sitting here laughing at the BoB bloc with this "are you a communist/witch" hilarity. The truth never damages a just cause. And it's a damned simple question. Curious question, but since when is the Guiding Hand Social Club a member of the BoB bloc? ------
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:08:00 - [255] Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. Being bitter about having your ass handed to you isn't always an acceptable excuse for poor conduct. Whatever. I am mearly pointing out the bias that is prevelent in the forums. Oh and I shall be charging for the "Proof or STFU". I expect a 1bil payment from BoB shortly. SJ. CLS Director =-
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:10:00 - [256] Originally by: NTRabbit Yes Dianabolic, answer the question - are you now or have you ever been a member of the American Communist Party? I don't get it, sorry.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:10:00 - [257] Originally by: NTRabbit Curious question, but since when is the Guiding Hand Social Club a member of the BoB bloc? You absolutely have my apologies, I looked at your avatar rather than the corp text underneath and thought you were someone else. However, I still don't think it's an apt comparison.
market pricechecker	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:11:00 - [258] Originally by: gofoi Originally by: NTRabbit Yes Dianabolic, answer the question - are you now or have you ever been a member of the American Communist Party? I don't get it, sorry. He's pulling a godwin corrollary
MetalZero Minmatar Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:12:00 - [259] hummm...shame ....till no answer ....well ...waiting Kieron ..... i till have faith ___________ ThunderCats
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:12:00 - [260] Also, shouldn't this really be in General Discussion rather than CAOD?
Verone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:13:00 - [261] ... NEWEST MOVIE : VETO FOR HIRE
Hennry Fromer Gallente TRSG Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:14:00 - [262] I think I have seen this pattern before; "Shes a witch - tie a weight to her and toss her in the lake if she floats we will burn her and if she drowns she was innocent." As in newspapers Accusations are potsed on the front page and appologies are on page 26b, CCP has acknoledged the isue and they will look into it; to properlly investigate anythig takes time. Could there have manipulation yes anything is possible; Should we hold an execution before the investigation - No. As to the should dev play or not - Absolutelly they should play the game, If you have no passion for what you do and it is just a paycheck you need to switch jobs. Hacking sites and introducing real life information to a game is just wrong - no good can come of it at all. It should be severlly punished, not only because it does real world harm but it also potentially exposes CCP to litigation. I hope this is thoughtfully and thourghlly investigated, action taken and the relevant facts posted for all to see. These views are not reflective of the viwes of my corp or corpmates . . . If I have failed to take my medication today they probablly aren't my views either.
Hardin Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:14:00 - [263] STOP WITH THE FECKING WITCH HUNT Devs play EVE. Some Devs are in BoB and some are in other alliances. That is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether the devs have used their 'magical powers' to influence the game. I personally do not believe that to be the case and I have seen ZERO evidence that they have. I have won 3 BPOs in the lottery over time. If I decided to leave the game and give them to my alliance would that be evidence that I was a dev? No it wouldn't... Devs in BoB - yes Devs in other alliances - yes Devs cheating to assist ingame alliances - proof or stfu... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:14:00 - [264] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: gofoi did you accept or not a bpo from a DEV? Name the devs and I'll answer each one individually, the answer is alread there. Diana, seriously, just answer the question! It's for you! Make a move, accept to take position, prove us that you're absolutely sure that you've never accepted a BPO from a Dev by simply saying yes or no. Of course you can chose to say nothing, it's your own right, but then you can undesrtand my point of view : If diana doesn't fully take part, he knows something's going wrong.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:15:00 - [265] Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:13:31 Originally by: Hardin STOP WITH THE FECKING WITCH HUNT Devs play EVE. Some Devs are in BoB and some are in other alliances. That is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether the devs have used their 'magical powers' to influence the game. I personally do not believe that to be the case and I have seen ZERO evidence that they have. I have won 3 BPOs in the lottery over time. If I decided to leave the game and give them to my alliance would that be evidence that I was a dev? No it wouldn't... Devs in BoB - yes Devs in other alliances - yes Devs cheating to assist ingame alliances - proof or stfu... Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. Taking a BPO from a DEV who are without cheating won a BPO, since when is there anything wrong with that?! I personally am not part of RKK and how they operate neither do I know what BPO's they have or how they got them. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:18:00 - [266] gofoi, you're question should read "Did you ever knowingly accept a T2 BPO, or multiples, from a dev?" Dianabolic may well have accepted BPO's from person X, but not known they were Dev's (and still not know.)
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:19:00 - [267] Originally by: Hennry Fromer I think I have seen this pattern before; "Shes a witch - tie a weight to her and toss her in the lake if she floats we will burn her and if she drowns she was innocent." Dianabolic could choose to say, "I have never knowingly received a BPO from a dev", the thing about this question is that there are no false positives.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:20:00 - [268] Edited by: Dianabolic on 31/01/2007 15:17:38 Originally by: gofoi Diana, seriously, just answer the question! It's for you! Make a move, accept to take position, prove us that you're absolutely sure that you've never accepted a BPO from a Dev by simply saying yes or no. Of course you can chose to say nothing, it's your own right, but then you can undesrtand my point of view : If diana doesn't fully take part, he knows something's going wrong. gofoi, given the pathetic witch hunt that is going on if you want answers you're going to have to get specific. No Dev has EVER given me, or anyone in RKK, any blueprint of any kind. (to my knowledge and all that jazz). I spoke to Joveur one though, in-game, I ransomed him in fdz. He didn't pay. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:22:00 - [269] Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 15:23:59 Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 15:23:29 Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 15:19:00 Edited: Dianabolic, the answer you gave only implies you did not get any BPOs from a dev directly. Would it also be true to say: "No dev char has, to my knowledge, given me or left with reikoku, any t2 BPO?" In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Otellus Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:24:00 - [270] Edited by: Otellus on 31/01/2007 15:22:16 Damn alt. Stupid forum settings.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:24:00 - [271] Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:21:17 Originally by: Otellus The damage is done. Regardless of what CCP will state at the end of their investigation, who is really gonna believe them? damage?! What are you talking about?! please go ahead and shed more light on these alligations. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:25:00 - [272] Originally by: DTee Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. You mean the BoB-Bus? The same bandwagon that BoB ride on the e-o fora when at war? oh, right.. NOW you want it all to stop.
Kahlil Dass Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:25:00 - [273] Originally by: Dianabolic We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? The allegations suggest that not only did RKK know that the character supplying them with T2 BPOs was a dev, they facilitated their anonymous posting to prevent this from being uncovered through the use of a proxy on the server hosting the RKK forums. I am aware that these are still allegations, and you are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, but this surely stinks something fierce.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:25:00 - [274] Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 31/01/2007 15:17:38 Originally by: gofoi Diana, seriously, just answer the question! It's for you! Make a move, accept to take position, prove us that you're absolutely sure that you've never accepted a BPO from a Dev by simply saying yes or no. Of course you can chose to say nothing, it's your own right, but then you can undesrtand my point of view : If diana doesn't fully take part, he knows something's going wrong. No Dev has EVER given me, or anyone in RKK, any blueprint of any kind. (to my knowledge and all that jazz). What about intel ? Serpentis event *hint, hint
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:26:00 - [275] Although I can see why RKK/Bob aren't happy campers at the moment I would suggest you handle this issue like grown-ups with some sense of responsibility and respect towards the rest of the community. The adult way to handle this would be to announce your full cooperation in whatever research CCP is going to undertake to get to the bottom of these accusations. Engaging in a flamewar with the trolls will not do anyone any good. -- .sig apathy ftw
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:27:00 - [276] Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:24:42 Originally by: jeNK Originally by: DTee Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. You mean the BoB-Bus? The same bandwagon that BoB ride on the e-o fora when at war? oh, right.. NOW you want it all to stop. Oh God, ASCN cry me a river. Bitter much? This bandwagon involves little else then some posts from a hacker. Who again as I've said from his chosen profession has little credibility. Most of BoB command has always and willa lways show full cooperation towards CCP and anything they demand. We also await the decision just like anyone else. I want to know what happend. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
Thalera Saldana Minmatar Oxymorons from Outer Space	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:28:00 - [277] My God, I thought the average age in Eve was slightly over 5, but apparently I am mistaken! Unfounded accusations flying around based on particularly dubious sources, and the amount of crying and whineage from the OMG you cheat/hax/dev brigade is unbelieveable. Grow up, shut up and wait for CCP to conduct their investigation. Just don't expect to be told all the details afterwards, it should be enough for them to either say innocent - nothing was wrong, or guilty - offending party fired/punished, as was done previously with GM/scorp incident. Seriously saddened by most of the attitudes in here. Thal
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:28:00 - [278] Edited by: Patch86 on 31/01/2007 15:25:18 The thing is, Dian saying one way or the other doesn't solve us anything. Presumably, there are three possible outcomes: 1. Dian did get BPOs from Devs, but certainly isn't going to own up on EVE-O about it. She says "no". 2. There is no conspiracy. No Dev gave any BPOs to anyone. Dian (honestly) says "no". 3. The Dev gave BPOs to Dian / BoB / anyone, but the recipient was not aware that that character was a Dev, instead assuming.....I don't know. That they are just generous, or have obtained massive wealth through GTCs, or whatever. Dian answers (and honestly believes) "no". So whichever way this goes, we arn't going to have made any progress. Witch hunts never get anywhere. Let the Devs investigate, they can no doubt track all the BPOs in game and where they've come from anyway, so they can solve this. Let Kieron investigate, and lets not smack and abuse individuals, to no avail. -----------------------------------------------
Larsson7 Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:28:00 - [279] The fact that BoB and several BoB members are on "trial" in this thread is simply mind boggling. Can't people let CCP investigate the issue and deal with it as they see fit? Must there be a constant witch hunt of individual players in this game? I am confident that, if CCP find that rules have been broken by either employees or players, that they will deal with it accordingly.
Kryztal Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:28:00 - [280] You people fail to realize that this has nothing to do with BoB. Yes this guy is claiming there are Dev's in BoB, but rest assure there are devs in many corps out there. GM's are eve players too. ISD are people that play eve that volunteer to help. If these people didnt play EvE they couldnt make the game what it is. Lol trying to make it look like BoB is beeing hung out to dry is just a little bit silly. This is affecting RL people in their RL, not a gaming corp or alliance. Step out of your boxes people and try and get some reality checks, this is a game and in it RL has nothing to do with it. Devs are not the reason BoB is good, i have no information on who is a Dev and who isnt a Dev in BoB and tbh i couldnt care less. If i have questions i direct the to people like Kieron or the mods and i get my answers from them. This is something you all can do and your corp tag does not affect the answers. RL >* Some things should not be used as entertainment for the masses, think tabloids people cos this thing is just like your reading about Brad and Angelina splitting or something...
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:29:00 - [281] Originally by: DTee ASCN cry me a river. Bitter much? This bandwagon involves little else then some posts from a hacker. Who again as I've said from his chosen profession has little credibility. Yeah, isn't it kind of funny how people are choosing to believe him over the words of BoB members? I wonder why that is?
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:29:00 - [282] "You said "When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game..." This is a question." Err, no; this is a statement. Questions end with question mark, like this: "So what could they do, as opposed to another player?" but this is admittedly mostly semantics and besides the point. The actual point of it was, your reply supplied a speculation what a dev could possibly do. I'll accept that you were just relying the product of other people's paranoia rather than originating it yourself, but it was act of spreading the speculation just the same. I seeked to clarify if there's some actual, practical grounding for that speculation and you responded with "let's not speculate". And that's fine with me, let's not. But that to me includes also not repeating other people's speculations as answers to unasked questions, because for uninformed reader this is no different from act of speculation itself. And given how these forums operate, such speculations (no matter if repeated or originated) turn into 'solid facts' two pages down the thread. with that out of the way yes, perhaps best to drop it by all means ^^;;
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:30:00 - [283] Originally by: DTee Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:21:17 Originally by: Otellus The damage is done. Regardless of what CCP will state at the end of their investigation, who is really gonna believe them? damage?! What are you talking about?! please go ahead and shed more light on these alligations. Otellus was me. I think it is simple, the credibility of this game has gone completely down the drain. With the clear accusations, and the response by BoB, its clear that Kugutsumen did not make all this up. If you threaten legal action, it means you think he hacked your forums. Which means we have proof of implication of CCP and BoB. The next step apparently is an investigation by CCP, but by the very nature of the things Kugutsumen posted, they have been implicated, and any investigation and subsequent conclusions on their part will carry at the very least a taint of possible 'clearing yourself' of any wrongdoing. Coupled with the fact that there are now names of Dev characters in BoB going around (won't mention them here), the damage is done.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:30:00 - [284] Originally by: Larsson7 The fact that BoB and several BoB members are on "trial" in this thread is simply mind boggling. Can't people let CCP investigate the issue and deal with it as they see fit? Must there be a constant witch hunt of individual players in this game? I am confident that, if CCP find that rules have been broken by either employees or players, that they will deal with it accordingly. Its less mind boggling more pathetic. It shows the people int his thread for what they are. Jealous and bitter. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:30:00 - [285] Originally by: Kahlil Dass Originally by: Dianabolic We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? The allegations suggest that not only did RKK know that the character supplying them with T2 BPOs was a dev, they facilitated their anonymous posting to prevent this from being uncovered through the use of a proxy on the server hosting the RKK forums. I am aware that these are still allegations, and you are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, but this surely stinks something fierce. Ok, this is it. How do you know about anyone proxies ? How would you know ? Oh, kungutsumen told you that. There are 127.0.0.1 entries. THat gotta be a proxy to hide the fact we are all cheating GMs/Devs. Or it could be squid ? Or administrators taking the ips to another level of logging ? Or one million other possibilities. Once again, you are all basing your so said "facts" on baseless "proofs" from a guy who is so much Jealous of successfull alliances and groups that he had to use IRL basic hacking methods to mess with people game. You should just all be ashamed of what you are doing. ----------------------------------------
Trask Kilraen The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:30:00 - [286] Lesse what happens. One thing that hopes happens is that all characters associated with Devs should not be allowed to "win" T2 BPOs In the same way that radio stations and the like do not allow employees to enter contests. If if the win is legitimate, there is always the whiff of foul play. BoB may have all their gobs of T2 BPOs legitimately... but for sure their is a veil of suspicion over them.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:31:00 - [287] Originally by: Kryztal You people fail to realize that this has nothing to do with BoB. Yes this guy is claiming there are Dev's in BoB, but rest assure there are devs in many corps out there. These allegations are that there are at least 5 CCP employees in BoB--that kind of clustering cannot be healthy for the integrity of the game.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:32:00 - [288] Originally by: DTee Who again as I've said from his chosen profession has little credibility. I'm not sure if you're commenting on hackers or spies but i'd like to say that in both cases your blanket statement on their reliability carries no weight at all. -- .sig apathy ftw
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:32:00 - [289] Originally by: DTee Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:24:42 Originally by: jeNK Originally by: DTee Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. You mean the BoB-Bus? The same bandwagon that BoB ride on the e-o fora when at war? oh, right.. NOW you want it all to stop. Oh God, ASCN cry me a river. Bitter much? This bandwagon involves little else then some posts from a hacker. Who again as I've said from his chosen profession has little credibility. Most of BoB command has always and willa lways show full cooperation towards CCP and anything they demand. We also await the decision just like anyone else. I want to know what happend. I'm not bitter because of the ASCN war, I'm just finding it damned hilarious that now BoB are the ones under fire, some members are squirming just as much, if not more, than anyone who has ever been underfire from BoB.
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:33:00 - [290] Originally by: Trask Kilraen Lesse what happens. One thing that hopes happens is that all characters associated with Devs should not be allowed to "win" T2 BPOs In the same way that radio stations and the like do not allow employees to enter contests. If if the win is legitimate, there is always the whiff of foul play. BoB may have all their gobs of T2 BPOs legitimately... but for sure their is a veil of suspicion over them. Or may be he mined for 2 weeks and bought them ingame ? Once again, you dont know, you cant know, you are just hoping this will damage bob. ----------------------------------------
Iorya Dragon Beagle Corp	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:34:00 - [291] Also Kieron, u should investigate the unbanning on multiple accounts. I wont point to ppl, but several accounts during the years, that were banned, were unbanned for paying multiple billions of isk to the right ppl, as the bpos and spawning someother items, investigate that too, u will have suprises, hehe...So making the game fairest possible it a must:) GL! Admin of EVE RO CENTER, Romanian EVE Community.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:34:00 - [292] Originally by: jeNK Originally by: DTee Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:24:42 Originally by: jeNK Originally by: DTee Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. You mean the BoB-Bus? The same bandwagon that BoB ride on the e-o fora when at war? oh, right.. NOW you want it all to stop. Oh God, ASCN cry me a river. Bitter much? This bandwagon involves little else then some posts from a hacker. Who again as I've said from his chosen profession has little credibility. Most of BoB command has always and willa lways show full cooperation towards CCP and anything they demand. We also await the decision just like anyone else. I want to know what happend. I'm not bitter because of the ASCN war, I'm just finding it damned hilarious that now BoB are the ones under fire, some members are squirming just as much, if not more, than anyone who has ever been underfire from BoB. The the thing people fail to understand. BoB isn't underfire. There are alligations nothing has been proven. This doesn't mean BoB hax cheats spawn stuff for everyone. This is conjecture. Madeup by someone. CCP said they will investigate, so why not wait for it? If you dont trust the people who created this game then quit and walk away. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:34:00 - [293] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Kahlil Dass Originally by: Dianabolic We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? The allegations suggest that not only did RKK know that the character supplying them with T2 BPOs was a dev, they facilitated their anonymous posting to prevent this from being uncovered through the use of a proxy on the server hosting the RKK forums. I am aware that these are still allegations, and you are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, but this surely stinks something fierce. Ok, this is it. How do you know about anyone proxies ? How would you know ? Oh, kungutsumen told you that. There are 127.0.0.1 entries. THat gotta be a proxy to hide the fact we are all cheating GMs/Devs. Or it could be squid ? Or administrators taking the ips to another level of logging ? Or one million other possibilities. Once again, you are all basing your so said "facts" on baseless "proofs" from a guy who is so much Jealous of successfull alliances and groups that he had to use IRL basic hacking methods to mess with people game. You should just all be ashamed of what you are doing. Prove he is a hacker. Also, by your own alliances members claiming he is a hacker, do you not realise that gives more credibility to his claims?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:35:00 - [294] Originally by: Evil Thug What about intel ? Serpentis event hint, hint We learnt about the serpentis titan even from Shinra, from one of their mission runner guys (JimmySav?). We learnt about the attacks on our pos, in which we lost two dreadnoughts (not reimbursed) from CELES et al. I've never had any input from CCP on their intentions, in-game, ever. Quote:* 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Niobe Farstar	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:35:00 - [295] Originally by: Kryztal You people fail to realize that this has nothing to do with BoB. Yes this guy is claiming there are Dev's in BoB, but rest assure there are devs in many corps out there. GM's are eve players too. ISD are people that play eve that volunteer to help. Their status is not supposed to be known to the general player base. I believe it's an offense for CCP staff to play the game openly as CCP staff. If there are devs/GMs/ISD playing openly in alliances other than BoB then they need to be rooted out too (or else the rules need to be changed).
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:35:00 - [296] Originally by: Trask Kilraen One thing that hopes happens is that all characters associated with Devs should not be allowed to "win" T2 BPOs In the same way that radio stations and the like do not allow employees to enter contests. If if the win is legitimate, there is always the whiff of foul play. BoB may have all their gobs of T2 BPOs legitimately... but for sure their is a veil of suspicion over them. Frankly I'm really surprised that it wasn't done that way from the beginning, there's just too much incentive for misdeeds particularly given the very signficant value of some BPOs.
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:36:00 - [297] Originally by: jeNK Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Kahlil Dass Originally by: Dianabolic We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? The allegations suggest that not only did RKK know that the character supplying them with T2 BPOs was a dev, they facilitated their anonymous posting to prevent this from being uncovered through the use of a proxy on the server hosting the RKK forums. I am aware that these are still allegations, and you are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, but this surely stinks something fierce. Ok, this is it. How do you know about anyone proxies ? How would you know ? Oh, kungutsumen told you that. There are 127.0.0.1 entries. THat gotta be a proxy to hide the fact we are all cheating GMs/Devs. Or it could be squid ? Or administrators taking the ips to another level of logging ? Or one million other possibilities. Once again, you are all basing your so said "facts" on baseless "proofs" from a guy who is so much Jealous of successfull alliances and groups that he had to use IRL basic hacking methods to mess with people game. You should just all be ashamed of what you are doing. Prove he is a hacker. Also, by your own alliances members claiming he is a hacker, do you not realise that gives more credibility to his claims? Your want proofs ? Catch me ingame. ----------------------------------------
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:36:00 - [298] Edited by: jeNK on 31/01/2007 15:33:13 Originally by: DTee Originally by: jeNK Originally by: DTee Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:24:42 Originally by: jeNK Originally by: DTee Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. You mean the BoB-Bus? The same bandwagon that BoB ride on the e-o fora when at war? oh, right.. NOW you want it all to stop. Oh God, ASCN cry me a river. Bitter much? This bandwagon involves little else then some posts from a hacker. Who again as I've said from his chosen profession has little credibility. Most of BoB command has always and willa lways show full cooperation towards CCP and anything they demand. We also await the decision just like anyone else. I want to know what happend. I'm not bitter because of the ASCN war, I'm just finding it damned hilarious that now BoB are the ones under fire, some members are squirming just as much, if not more, than anyone who has ever been underfire from BoB. The the thing people fail to understand. BoB isn't underfire. There are alligations nothing has been proven. This doesn't mean BoB hax cheats spawn stuff for everyone. This is conjecture. Madeup by someone. CCP said they will investigate, so why not wait for it? If you dont trust the people who created this game then quit and walk away. I take it you don't understand what is meant by the phrase "under fire." It is used to describe the act of being scrutinised or under doubt to their behaviour of past and present. To be attacked, in other words. You don't have to be formally charged ro convicted to be under fire, merely an allegation is enough to be "under fire."
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:36:00 - [299] Originally by: dimensionZ Once again, you dont know, you cant know, you are just hoping this will damage bob. See beyond this dim, BOB ain't worth hating. I, personaly, am too selfish to even think about hating someone in the game. If I want that issue solved it's not to bring BOB down, it's to be sure that my gaming experience is a game and not an "already-scripted-play (?)". I'm paying money/week and want to be sure it's worth it.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:39:00 - [300] Originally by: dimensionZ Your want proofs ? Catch me ingame. Is this offer extended to everyone? And, if not, jeNK, could you please relay in the interests of openness?
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:39:00 - [301] Nothing personal. But a word of advise .. Sometimes its best to not say anything at all. ->My Vids<- CCP= More skilz more moneh!
Hardin Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:40:00 - [302] Originally by: DTee Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 15:20:17 Originally by: Hardin STOP WITH THE FECKING WITCH HUNT Devs play EVE. Some Devs are in BoB and some are in other alliances. That is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether the devs have used their 'magical powers' to influence the game. I personally do not believe that to be the case and I have seen ZERO evidence that they have. I have won 3 BPOs in the lottery over time. If I decided to leave the game and give them to my alliance would that be evidence that I was a dev? No it wouldn't... Devs in BoB - yes Devs in other alliances - yes Devs cheating to assist ingame alliances - proof or stfu... Finally, Someone with more intelligence then the BoB smacking bandwagon. Also for arguments sake, Believe me when I say I know as little about this "incident" (whether it took place or not is still not kwnown) as the rest of the Eve communnity. Taking a BPO from a DEV who without cheating won a BPO and give to his alliance when he left, since when is there anything wrong with that?! I personally am not part of RKK and how they operate neither do I know what BPO's they have or how they got them. Also Dian has no reason to say anything to anyone. The question here is whether there was any foul play. CCP have said they are investigating this. Capische? Indeed... Originally by: Annonymous Coward These allegations are that there are at least 5 CCP employees in BoB--that kind of clustering cannot be healthy for the integrity of the game. How do you know there isn't five devs in any other corp or alliance? Huh? Do the devs even know where their colleagues have accounts? We don't know. Even if BoB knew that they were accepting a BPO from a dev is that wrong if the dev won the BPO legitimately through the lottery as any 'normal' player would? Yes there are ethical questions over this that will need to be resolved WITHIN CCP (and they are already investigating this) therefore throwing muck as BoB without any hard evidence is completely pointless unless you simply want to have a go at BoB just coz you don't like them... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Angeles Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:41:00 - [303] Originally by: gofoi Originally by: dimensionZ Once again, you dont know, you cant know, you are just hoping this will damage bob. See beyond this dim, BOB ain't worth hating. I, personaly, am too selfish to even think about hating someone in the game. If I want that issue solved it's not to bring BOB down, it's to be sure that my gaming experience is a game and not an "already-scripted-play (?)". I'm paying money/week and want to be sure it's worth it. amen... this isnt about hating or trying to put bob in a bad picture, its about finding out wth is going on, nothing more nothing less
Obijameskenobi Caldari Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:41:00 - [304] Dammit ppl, let CCP investigate and deal with this. Too much speculation with no 100% solid proof and ppl gloating over this. Take a chill pill and let CCP handle this. You only make yourself look like fools with all this speculation.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:45:00 - [305] Originally by: jeNK gofoi, you're question should read "Did you ever knowingly accept a T2 BPO, or multiples, from a dev?" Dianabolic may well have accepted BPO's from person X, but not known they were Dev's (and still not know.) The question also needs to be extended further to cover the angle if the TQ char handled by the dev in person actually won the t2 lottery via normal means or if the tq char received the t2 bpo via dodgy means from his dev account (be it via trade or via rigging the lottery). Remember the normal chars they play with dont have any superpowers and follow the same gamemechanics (and hence can with the right skills or agents win a t2 lottery just like anyone else) as your or my char. The Dev chars are another topic. To the rest of the ppl still doubting the stuff about anthonyz, reread the Goon reply stating their troubles with him. Goons are by far no BoB lovers, so ask yourself why would they smear a guy who sticks it to BoB by telling you the same story BoB told you about him... That he is a hacker....
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:45:00 - [306] Dian, did ever a person registered as "dimensionZ" on your boards gave you so called "t20 secret infos"? In case he did, what were those "t20 secret infos"? Thank you. ...now in RED
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:46:00 - [307] Originally by: Angeles Originally by: gofoi Originally by: dimensionZ Once again, you dont know, you cant know, you are just hoping this will damage bob. See beyond this dim, BOB ain't worth hating. I, personaly, am too selfish to even think about hating someone in the game. If I want that issue solved it's not to bring BOB down, it's to be sure that my gaming experience is a game and not an "already-scripted-play (?)". I'm paying money/week and want to be sure it's worth it. amen... this isnt about hating or trying to put bob in a bad picture, its about finding out wth is going on, nothing more nothing less What do you think ? What is your common sense telling you ? That someone will risk its real life job for couple of billions ISK ? or That someone is just playing the game and only suffering from stupid people finding out who they are working for. ----------------------------------------
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:48:00 - [308] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, did ever a person registered as "dimensionZ" on your boards gave you so called "t20 secret infos"? In case he did, what were those "t20 secret infos"? Thank you. Best infos i ever had was upcoming killmail changes. I asked questions during ccp dev chats, and at the time i was one of the first to host killboards. So yeah, a dev, t20, gave me couple of informations about killmails for upcoming parsing changes. But that was years ago. ----------------------------------------
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:49:00 - [309] "Curious question, but since when is the Guiding Hand Social Club a member of the BoB bloc?" * your employment history shows you to be at some point member of Jericho Fraction * i was also at some point member of Jericho Fraction * i'm now in BoB corp * BoB is well known to be hive of scumm and dev-altery it's henceforth proven without a doubt NTR, by rock-solid chain of logical reasoning you've been outed as nothing but nefarious dev alt ruining the game experience for everyone out there. (used to be six degrees of Joshua Calvert, guess this one will be the new flavour :s
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:49:00 - [310] So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? ...now in RED
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:50:00 - [311] Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? he asked it during a Dev-chat. A public event (of the past) held on irc where ppl could submit questions to the devs who would answer them.
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:51:00 - [312] Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. ----------------------------------------
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:51:00 - [313] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, did ever a person registered as "dimensionZ" on your boards gave you so called "t20 secret infos"? In case he did, what were those "t20 secret infos"? Thank you. Best infos i ever had was upcoming killmail changes. I asked questions during ccp dev chats, and at the time i was one of the first to host killboards. So yeah, a dev, t20, gave me couple of informations about killmails for upcoming parsing changes. But that was years ago. So, you are implying that these there the best infos. What were the other infos you had? ...now in RED
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:52:00 - [314] Originally by: dimensionZ What do you think ? What is your common sense telling you ? That someone will risk its real life job for couple of billions ISK ? or That someone is just playing the game and only suffering from stupid people finding out who they are working for. You just can't know these things really, can you. I mean personally, I'd put my employment above the strength of my virtual nation in a game. But I know plenty of idiots who wouldn't think that way, and even Devs can be idiots. I don't hate BoB. BoB are just, you know, BoB. If a Dev really has been playing god for the "advantage" of BoB, then the other, normal members of BoB are as much victims as anyone else. Its really beside the point though. What I want to see is any Dev who has abused his powers to be fired and perma-banned, aswell as anyone who willingly, knowingly took part in the conspiracy. I also want all innocent Devs, players and alliances to have their names cleared pending the result of this investigation. If someone is genuinely innocent and have been wrongly accused (and subjected to this, they deserve the biggest damned apology this community can muster. -----------------------------------------------
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:52:00 - [315] Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 15:48:44 Originally by: Hardin Even if BoB knew that they were accepting a BPO from a dev is that wrong if the dev won the BPO legitimately through the lottery as any 'normal' player would? Some thoughts on this: Originally by: Victor Vision Dev's winning t2 BPO's That is a different matter entirely. To be able to play the game it is not neccessary to own t2 BPOs on a dev char. Most of the community do not have t2 BPOs, and the lottery used to distribute them is highly controversial. Even non dev chars who are very lucky in the t2 lottery tend to be percieved as potential cheaters. So a dev char with multiple t2 BPOs is bound to raise eyebrows in the community. Also the way the t2 lottery works in my knowledge, is open to CCP employee exploitation, which is hard to impossible to prove. Typically to create something random on the computer, a randomizing algorythim is used which is fed with a seed. The seed is the starting number for the random creation. It is important to know, that each seed used will create the exact same result everytime it is used. So theoretically if you know which numbers you would like to be drawn, you can reverse engineer the seed needed for them to be "randomly" created. And who can later prove that you used a reverse engineered seed to get your desired numbers? Or, if you realy did not reverse engineer that seed that you used but just got lucky, how are you as a dev going to prove your innoncence? Professional RL lottery companies do not allow any of their employees to take part in the lottery. I think it would help a lot if the dev t2 BPOs in question were deleted. The devs would be making a clear statemant that way that they are not interested in gaining unfair advantages, neither for themselves, nor for corps or alliances they play(ed) in. I would like to add this is not BOB specific. In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:53:00 - [316] Originally by: dimensionZ Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. I would say that it is bad business behaviour. The person endangers the company's potential profits. ...now in RED
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:54:00 - [317] Interesting that a great number of the replies in this thread can be translated to - "I demand that CCP ban anyone who plays EVE in a different way than I do." This witch hunt is ******* disgusting TBH. - Vid - 'Images of War'
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:54:00 - [318] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, did ever a person registered as "dimensionZ" on your boards gave you so called "t20 secret infos"? In case he did, what were those "t20 secret infos"? Thank you. Best infos i ever had was upcoming killmail changes. I asked questions during ccp dev chats, and at the time i was one of the first to host killboards. So yeah, a dev, t20, gave me couple of informations about killmails for upcoming parsing changes. But that was years ago. So, you are implying that these there the best infos. What were the other infos you had? Figure of speech. But thats true, I also knew when a new data exportation pack was about to be released, once. Crazy informations, isnt it ? Thats all i had, couple of hints for my killboards, nothing more. ----------------------------------------
Evil Thug Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:56:00 - [319] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Evil Thug What about intel ? Serpentis event *hint, hint We learnt about the serpentis titan even from Shinra, from one of their mission runner guys (JimmySav?). We learnt about the attacks on our pos, in which we lost two dreadnoughts (not reimbursed) from CELES et al. I've never had any input from CCP on their intentions, in-game, ever. Its strange, because forum blogs from kuguwhatever says otherwise Its really sad. Because there is NO way to prove it. If this guy indeed cheated to get bpos - then he is stupid. Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V" As many people stated, EVE is VERY competetive game. Its the only game, where alliance working for 1 year, to build a ship, that can be destroyed in 5 minutes. I`m perfectly ok with fact, that someone playing EVE better than me. It only means, that i need to train myself, and my people more. But when someone using well known advantages AND boasting on forums, how uber he is. Well. Launch DOOM, enter iddqd, kill cyberdemon with chainsaw, and come to brag about it. Funny ? EVE community suffered from those kind of events many times. Its starting from summer 2003, when SA received tachyon bpo, then miner II. Saga continues now...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:56:00 - [320] Originally by: dimensionZ Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. A Dev is strictly (STRICTLY) forbidden from ervealing their identity to other players. If he "decided not to lie to a good friend and ask you just not to tell anyone else", he's already in pretty deep doo doo. Thats pretty mucha fire-out-of-a-cannon offense, methinks. -----------------------------------------------
Scan 7 Detroit School of Engineering	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:56:00 - [321] WoW CCP plays eve BIG DEAL, as long as they dont abuse any admin powers to get an advantage i dont see what the problem is, im sure theres devs in most alliances including ASCN
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:56:00 - [322] Were there any other so called "infos"? ...now in RED
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:56:00 - [323] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Dianabolic, did you not also say there were no devs in BOB? We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? You didn't answer the question. Yes or no would suffice. Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev as well, yes? Simple enough for you? You didn't answer this question either. Yes or no would suffice. Try again. 1) Are the BoB command team aware of ANY CCP employees or volunteers in BoB? 2) Has BoB been given/stolen or otherwise aqquired any T2 items or rare ships from any CCP employee or volunteer? 3) Has the BoB high command been privvy to any information relating to other in game groups supplied by ANY CCP employees or volunteer? 4) What action does the BoB high command take upon discovering that a BoB member is a CCP employee or volunteer? However, I would like to see a statment from every major (and some minor) alliances reagarding these issues. And it would be nice to see a straight answer, rather than innuendo and obfuscation. Theres no need to procrastinate on this. Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:58:00 - [324] Originally by: Angry Dan Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Dianabolic, did you not also say there were no devs in BOB? We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? You didn't answer the question. Yes or no would suffice. Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Victor Vision Did you or did you not get t2 BPOs from a dev char? We've received bpos from many characters, one of our pilots recently gave us a tracking disruptor II bpo, I bet he's a dev as well, yes? Simple enough for you? You didn't answer this question either. Yes or no would suffice. Try again. 1) Are the BoB command team aware of ANY CCP employees or volunteers in BoB? 2) Has BoB been given/stolen or otherwise aqquired any T2 items or rare ships from any CCP employee or volunteer? 3) Has the BoB high command been privvy to any information relating to other in game groups supplied by ANY CCP employees or volunteer? 4) What action does the BoB high command take upon discovering that a BoB member is a CCP employee or volunteer? However, I would like to see a statment from every major (and some minor) alliances reagarding these issues. And it would be nice to see a straight answer, rather than innuendo and obfuscation. Theres no need to procrastinate on this. Sorry, what gives you the right to act as judge, jury and executioner. let alone as the preosecution. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
gofoi Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 15:58:00 - [325] Originally by: dimensionZ What do you think ? What is your common sense telling you ? That someone will risk its real life job for couple of billions ISK ? or That someone is just playing the game and only suffering from stupid people finding out who they are working for. or someone that couldn't resist using his DEV powers and who shouldn't have been designated such in the first place.
Angeles Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:00:00 - [326] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Angeles Originally by: gofoi Originally by: dimensionZ Once again, you dont know, you cant know, you are just hoping this will damage bob. See beyond this dim, BOB ain't worth hating. I, personaly, am too selfish to even think about hating someone in the game. If I want that issue solved it's not to bring BOB down, it's to be sure that my gaming experience is a game and not an "already-scripted-play (?)". I'm paying money/week and want to be sure it's worth it. amen... this isnt about hating or trying to put bob in a bad picture, its about finding out wth is going on, nothing more nothing less What do you think ? What is your common sense telling you ? That someone will risk its real life job for couple of billions ISK ? or That someone is just playing the game and only suffering from stupid people finding out who they are working for. My common sense is telling that that this game is extremely addictive, and therefore very very very competitive
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:00:00 - [327] Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and communism and witchcraft go hand in hand :D You forogt homosexuality. Although thats more hand in.................. Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Sunder Tseng Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:01:00 - [328] Originally by: dimensionZ What do you think ? What is your common sense telling you ? That someone will risk its real life job for couple of billions ISK ? or That someone is just playing the game and only suffering from stupid people finding out who they are working for. I'd like to believe the second one, but we've had CCP employees get canned for a couple billion isk less than six months ago, and there's a large number of cases of people actually killing other people IRL over WoW, Lineage, etc. ---- it is a tale/Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,/Signifying nothing.
PDoggy	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:02:00 - [329] Edited by: PDoggy on 31/01/2007 16:01:29 You know, it's funny. Dianabolic and whatever other BoB evangelist states clearly that they were aware of devs in their alliance and hey this is fine because they're in other alliances too right? Then how come a certain GM who won't be named, when after the fanfest, registering an account on the active forums of an in-game alliance who won't be named unless someone asks, after a few happy hours of posting and chilling, had to close his account immediately at prompting from a superior under threat of losing his job? But GMs and devs can be in alliances, just not read their forums without being in them and helping them? Sorry but this sounds like grade A+++ bull**** and favouritism. bolding this entire post so that this example won't be ignored and I'll see if there are actually any valid responses to this
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:03:00 - [330] Originally by: Evil Thug Its really sad. Because there is NO way to prove it. If this guy indeed cheated to get bpos - then he is stupid. Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V" As many people stated, EVE is VERY competetive game. Its the only game, where alliance working for 1 year, to build a ship, that can be destroyed in 5 minutes. I`m perfectly ok with fact, that someone playing EVE better than me. It only means, that i need to train myself, and my people more. But when someone using well known advantages AND boasting on forums, how uber he is. Well. Launch DOOM, enter iddqd, kill cyberdemon with chainsaw, and come to brag about it. Funny ? EVE community suffered from those kind of events many times. Its starting from summer 2003, when SA received tachyon bpo, then miner II. Saga continues now... Sure, and tbh mate it's never going to stop - regardless of whether the third party sites continue, the basic claims are ALL the same, the furore just continues and maybe gets more intense. "omg bob are devs", "omg bob are favourites" yada yada. It's not going to affect my game play tbh, hell it might make recruitment more active as people think by joining us they get to play with Devs (ya'll gotta mine for me, bishes). It's also never going to go away, but then the more people we beat up on the more who will want to hate us. /me shrugs. It's old adage, ET, if people think you're cheating, it's generally because they just got owned. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:03:00 - [331] "Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V"" When was last time this kind of change happened, vs introduction of entirely new modules? Or when was a ship module changed to significant degree without landing on the test server first for people to check it out and ***** about changes in the 'ships and modules'? Seriously, as far as stupid theoretical examples of what "could" happen go, this one probably takes the cake. Yes, devs are utter morons who turn basic modules into uber weapons without notifying player base they are actually going to introduce new mechanics, and without allowing them to test these first. Please --;;
Christopher Scott Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:05:00 - [332] Edited by: Christopher Scott on 31/01/2007 16:03:58 Seems more and more BoB are starting to log in now. I doubt they will do too much in game today, as they will be too busy fighting for any strain of dignity they can save on these forums, if any. I don't have much faith in official investigations. Technically, investigations has been going on for almost three years, back when BoB didn't exist as an alliance, and it was just the troublemakers of m0o, Evol, and RKK. Back when they were notorious for exploiting bugged damagemod stacking and crashing peoples clients with bugged mods, dumping cargocans on gates and soforth. Oh, there is a long history that many new players do not know. There is a reason why the people who made BoB are the most despised people in this game. Once the ship has finally sunk, and it's only a matter of time, all of the truth will come out. Dianobolic, DB Preacher, you are stepping on your tongues badly. Admitting to things you outright denied, avoiding the truth like a plague. You're slipping faster than Nixon during the watergate scandal. How can you afford to make so many mistakes when people are recording your every word? Oh wait, you can't. This situation is far beyond the internal matters of CCP, like it or not, and you are facing the reality of helping ruin a great game and any reputation it might have. Information is already spreading, and everybody loves to hear a juicy scandal. Oh, but that's not even the tip of the iceberg that is sinking your ship. CCP is a game company, not the FBI. They don't know how to do an internal investigation, that is why we all know that nothing will come of it. The descicion is in BoB's hands to make things right. There is no good that will come from any of this, exept for you and everyone else in BoB's high command to come clean about everything and give CCP the chance to do the right thing, no bull**. If this scandal marks the downfall of EVE, and by god I hope it does not, the blood will not wash off your hands. Originally by:** DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
MAEOTIS	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:05:00 - [333] After reading all 9 pages off post..i have come too the conclusion. 1.BOB are getting worried, thier respect is almost 0 from the mostly respectfull eve community (infact admitted a DEV/GM was in BOB) 2. That most people in EVE now understand why BOB r so good becuase they prolly did have help (from dev/GM) prolly is true 3. would they have been as good without help in PVP and construction (prolly not, seems ASCN did better) 4. will CCP take all BPO assets from BOB (anser no) CCP will in no doubt deniy all allagetions and sweep it under the carpet thru fear off losing $ final thought. think off the real money u r spending. at the end off the day 90% of eve players will never be rich while there r Devs/GMs in the big allainces.. i myself am considering quitting..
Evil Thug Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:06:00 - [334] Originally by: j0sephine "Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V"" When was last time this kind of change happened, vs introduction of entirely new modules? Or when was a ship module changed to significant degree without landing on the test server first for people to check it out and ***** about changes in the 'ships and modules'? Seriously, as far as stupid theoretical examples of what "could" happen go, this one probably takes the cake. Yes, devs are utter morons who turn basic modules into uber weapons without notifying player base they are actually going to introduce new mechanics, and without allowing them to test these first. Please --;; I think transform t1 cargohold bpos into tech 2 version. Check General Discussion. It was pre-Kali i think (less than 2 months ago).
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:06:00 - [335] Originally by: Angeles Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Angeles Originally by: gofoi Originally by: dimensionZ Once again, you dont know, you cant know, you are just hoping this will damage bob. See beyond this dim, BOB ain't worth hating. I, personaly, am too selfish to even think about hating someone in the game. If I want that issue solved it's not to bring BOB down, it's to be sure that my gaming experience is a game and not an "already-scripted-play (?)". I'm paying money/week and want to be sure it's worth it. amen... this isnt about hating or trying to put bob in a bad picture, its about finding out wth is going on, nothing more nothing less What do you think ? What is your common sense telling you ? That someone will risk its real life job for couple of billions ISK ? or That someone is just playing the game and only suffering from stupid people finding out who they are working for. My common sense is telling that that this game is extremely addictive, and therefore very very very competitive Indeed. We live in a world where people will beat other people to death for rooting for the 'wrong' team in soccer. And they're not even players, they're just spectators. So the question as to how far I think some people will go in a game, the answer is simple. Some people will do ANYTHING.
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:07:00 - [336] Originally by: MAEOTIS After reading all 9 pages off post..i have come too the conclusion. 1.BOB are getting worried, thier respect is almost 0 from the mostly respectfull eve community (infact admitted a DEV/GM was in BOB) 2. That most people in EVE now understand why BOB r so good becuase they prolly did have help (from dev/GM) prolly is true 3. would they have been as good without help in PVP and construction (prolly not, seems ASCN did better) 4. will CCP take all BPO assets from BOB (anser no) CCP will in no doubt deniy all allagetions and sweep it under the carpet thru fear off losing $ final thought. think off the real money u r spending. at the end off the day 90% of eve players will never be rich while there r Devs/GMs in the big allainces.. i myself am considering quitting.. I'm sorry but this is more nonsense. Delete your post before someone flames you. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
Sunder Tseng Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:07:00 - [337] Originally by: j0sephine "Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V"" When was last time this kind of change happened, vs introduction of entirely new modules? Or when was a ship module changed to significant degree without landing on the test server first for people to check it out and ***** about changes in the 'ships and modules'? Seriously, as far as stupid theoretical examples of what "could" happen go, this one probably takes the cake. Yes, devs are utter morons who turn basic modules into uber weapons without notifying player base they are actually going to introduce new mechanics, and without allowing them to test these first. Please --;; I'd say the DC Bpo and shield boost amp BPO might be something along those lines ---- it is a tale/Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,/Signifying nothing.
SwindonBadger 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:08:00 - [338] Good wishes to all involved except of course the firestarter, I want attention, your account details and isk = kugutsumen. U go about things in the wrong way, very bad taste and so wrong to give out that info of people in rl, perhapse if this ends nicly for all others ull not want your own reel life name location and picture posted? U play on the minds of others like a soap opera from tacky land with no regard to the people you accuse other then linning your wallet, the very fact your doing this and trying to claim ingame ships is sickening. Perhapse all those that are so quick jump on the band waggon will want to spank the driver later... then yer lets see where you live please and pic to boot.
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:09:00 - [339] Originally by: dimensionZ Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. So, did you, or did you not, know of dev's player chracter? ...now in RED
Godolphin Caldari Black Omega Security Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:10:00 - [340] Originally by: MAEOTIS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After reading all 9 pages off post..i have come too the conclusion. 1.BOB are getting worried, thier respect is almost 0 from the mostly respectfull eve community (infact admitted a DEV/GM was in BOB) 2. That most people in EVE now understand why BOB r so good becuase they prolly did have help (from dev/GM) prolly is true 3. would they have been as good without help in PVP and construction (prolly not, seems ASCN did better) 4. will CCP take all BPO assets from BOB (anser no) CCP will in no doubt deniy all allagetions and sweep it under the carpet thru fear off losing $ final thought. think off the real money u r spending. at the end off the day 90% of eve players will never be rich while there r Devs/GMs in the big allainces.. i myself am considering quitting.. sorry thats my alt...bob will flame but u think i really care now?
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:11:00 - [341] personally i dont care if he gave his BPO to the corp/alliance. question is did he get them like anyone else? another question is, why did a alledged DEV(not proven yet, very likely though) give intel on upcoming events before any other corp/alliance could get same info? CCP Employee's need to play only in Jove territory or on the testserver only. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent? Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:11:00 - [342] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: dimensionZ Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. So, did you, or did you not, know of dev's player chracter? What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? ----------------------------------------
DTee Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:11:00 - [343] Edited by: DTee on 31/01/2007 16:08:10 Originally by: Christopher Scott Edited by: Christopher Scott on 31/01/2007 16:03:58 Seems more and more BoB are starting to log in now. I doubt they will do too much in game today, as they will be too busy fighting for any strain of dignity they can save on these forums, if any. I don't have much faith in official investigations. Technically, investigations has been going on for almost three years, back when BoB didn't exist as an alliance, and it was just the troublemakers of m0o, Evol, and RKK. Back when they were notorious for exploiting bugged damagemod stacking and crashing peoples clients with bugged mods, dumping cargocans on gates and soforth. Oh, there is a long history that many new players do not know. There is a reason why the people who made BoB are the most despised people in this game. Once the ship has finally sunk, and it's only a matter of time, all of the truth will come out. Dianobolic, DB Preacher, you are stepping on your tongues badly. Admitting to things you outright denied, avoiding the truth like a plague. You're slipping faster than Nixon during the watergate scandal. How can you afford to make so many mistakes when people are recording your every word? Oh wait, you can't. This situation is far beyond the internal matters of CCP, like it or not, and you are facing the reality of helping ruin a great game and any reputation it might have. Information is already spreading, and everybody loves to hear a juicy scandal. Oh, but that's not even the tip of the iceberg that is sinking your ship. CCP is a game company, not the FBI. They don't know how to do an internal investigation, that is why we all know that nothing will come of it. The descicion is in BoB's hands to make things right. There is no good that will come from any of this, exept for you and everyone else in BoB's high command to come clean about everything and give CCP the chance to do the right thing, no bull****. If this scandal marks the downfall of EVE, and by god I hope it does not, the blood will not wash off your hands. "I don't have much faith in official investigations. " Quit the game . Stop being so mellodramatic. (However its spelt) This isn't going to kill BoB or Eve. Just more brain cells of those of you who believe this rabbit food. Host of The DT show - Thursdays 16:00 - 18:00 . Listen to BoB Radio now!
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:15:00 - [344] Dian, have you ever, or any of RKK's directorship of which you know of, received intricate information about internal EVE game mechanics by other means than patch notes and/or intense testing work of those said mechanics on TQ or Singularity? ...now in RED
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:16:00 - [345] Originally by: Malachon So the question as to how far I think some people will go in a game, the answer is simple. Some people will do ANYTHING.[/quote Theres already been at least one murder over an ingame theft in a MMO. No I can't be bothered to trawl for a link. Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:16:00 - [346] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: dimensionZ Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. So, did you, or did you not, know of dev's player chracter? What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? Answer the question please. ...now in RED
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:18:00 - [347] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: dimensionZ Edited by: dimensionZ on 31/01/2007 15:47:57 Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, a member of RKK actually knew a dev's player's character? What if you make a friend ingame. What if that guy, one year later, apply to CCP and got a job there? What if they guy decide not to lie to a good friend and ask you to just not tell anyone else as it wont change a thing anyway ? What would you do ? Edit : Not telling that i knew a dev real account name, just saying that it CAN happen and how you SHOULD react. So, did you, or did you not, know of dev's player chracter? What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? Answer the question please. Why would I ? I have no reasons to answer you. I merely give my POV about what is happening. If i do not want to reply, i wont. ----------------------------------------
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:20:00 - [348] Originally by: dimensionZ Why would I ? I have no reasons to answer you. I merely give my POV about what is happening. If i do not want to reply, i wont. Can you tell us why you won't answer the question?
Evil Thug Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:20:00 - [349] Originally by: dimensionZ What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? Fast solution of ingame problems, for example. You are planned fleet op in region XYZ ? Fine, just ask to boost node here. Or not to ask, this guy is human too, and ofc he want to play lag free game. You stucked ? Fine, let me relogin. Everything is within laws. But this creates impression, that eve players are not equal behind law (i.e. GMS). Especially you feel good, when you are waiting senior GM to resolve your matter for 5 hours. Just like i`m doing now
Godolphin Caldari Black Omega Security Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:23:00 - [350] they have already admitted there was a GM/DEV chara in BOB.. We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. Qoute from DB preacher.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:24:00 - [351] Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 31/01/2007 16:21:38 Originally by: DTee because you are anobody? and he nas nothing to answer for to you? It's very interesting to watch various people dig their own graves right in front of your eyes. Refusal and insult are not your best political options here, trust me.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:24:00 - [352] Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 16:22:32 "I think transform t1 cargohold bpos into tech 2 version. Check General Discussion. It was pre-Kali i think (less than 2 months ago)." The only thing i can find on the subject (and that's included in patch notes) is the seeding of tech.1 cargohold BPOs (which have been missing forever and then some) Is this what you meant..? edit: wait, found it. http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=429803 "I'd say the DC Bpo and shield boost amp BPO might be something along those lines" Changes to damage controls were tried and tested (and broken) on test server for long time, everyone who bothered to keep up with the game knew they're coming. I don't remember anything outrageous about shield boost amplifier BPOs at this point, weren't they originally introduced as agent rewards? o.O;
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:24:00 - [353] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, have you ever, or any of RKK's directorship of which you know of, received intricate information about internal EVE game mechanics by other means than patch notes and/or intense testing work of those said mechanics on TQ or Singularity? Nope, tbh I'd like to think if I had I would be able to resist the urge to cheat, I've never done so and I don't intend to start. The fact that RKK do not own either the shield boost amp, cargo expander, or prototype cloak bpos (the ones that got grandfathered iirc) kinda proves that point, no? No, we've never received any hints as to future market (or other) changes that may increase how much isk we have. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
dimensionZ Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:25:00 - [354] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Edited by: Galimiy Portret on 31/01/2007 16:18:39 How did you communicate with t20 about those "secret infos"? Was it by in-game means or was it out-of-game means of communicating? Would you care in both cases to present an extort of such communication with clear indication of medium that was used? Dude , if you cant read my previous posts, i cant help you. I'm done replying here. I knew you wouldnt listen to me, or even try to understand. Good day. ----------------------------------------
Angry Dan Caldari Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:25:00 - [355] Originally by: Dianabolic It's old adage, ET, if people think you're cheating, it's generally because they just got owned. Good sportsmanship > wining. I personally haven't seen any 100% direct proof of BoB exploiting or cheating. What I have seen is a lot of misinformation, lying and smacktalk. And some very dubious conicidences. Bluntly, no one believes what BoB says. Hell, Sir Molle suid he hired MC to attack D2 (the current little fracas) I still have my doubts. BoB are not trusted. And theres little that can be done to restore that trust. You could start by answering my previous post with the 4 questions addressed to you. Quote: 1) Are the BoB command team aware of ANY CCP employees or volunteers in BoB? 2) Has BoB been given/stolen or otherwise aqquired any T2 items or rare ships from any CCP employee or volunteer? 3) Has the BoB high command been privvy to any information relating to other in game groups supplied by ANY CCP employees or volunteer? 4) What action does the BoB high command take upon discovering that a BoB member is a CCP employee or volunteer? However, I would like to see a statment from every major (and some minor) alliances reagarding these issues. And it would be nice to see a straight answer, rather than innuendo and obfuscation. Theres no need to procrastinate on this. Oh yeah, I'll also state that I know the ingame name of 1 CCP forum moderator. I believe that person is inactive now though, due to real life issues. I suspect I know of at least 2 more. Founder member of the Huzzah Federation. Remember, the grass is greener on our side of the fence Originally by: Butter Dog Good Sportsmanship > Winning.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:26:00 - [356] Originally by: Godolphin they have already admitted there was a GM/DEV chara in BOB.. We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. Qoute from DB preacher. Actually, that was a quote from myself. And, where is the admittance? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:26:00 - [357] Originally by: Evil Thug Edited by: Evil Thug on 31/01/2007 16:16:58 Originally by: dimensionZ What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? Fast solution of ingame problems, for example. You are planned fleet op in region XYZ ? Fine, just ask to boost node here. Or dont ask, this guy is human too, and ofc he want to play lag free game. You stucked ? Fine, let me relogin. Everything is within laws. But this creates impression, that eve players are not equal behind law (i.e. GMS). Especially you feel good, when you are waiting senior GM to resolve your matter for 5 hours. Just like i`m doing now I see what you mean here, but i've known friends get petetions answered within days when other people have been waiting weeks does that mean they we're a Dev or had Dev friends? On a seperate note funny to see all the BOB haters trying to take a jibe its quite sad
Danny Hawk Black Lance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:28:00 - [358] tbh this thread shouldve been locked and just left as a statment, if its true then we can all rant and rave and call bob cheatin hax0rs like they are :)
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:29:00 - [359] Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 16:25:19 Originally by: The Mittani My dearest darling -dbp, and or any BoB here who have his MSN; You want me to contact you about your accusations towards my man Rycar, yet you have blocked my alliance, shockingly enough, so I cannot evemail you even if you were online. See page 4 of this trainwreck of a thread for reference. Most of EVE already knows my MSN, so here it is: [email protected] It's not like it hasn't been leaked in innumerable chatlogs already. Call me, we'll talk, I'll throw in some linebreaks to make you feel more at ease. doh sorry, I'm not at home to remove that. It was from when we were at war. However, you can ignore the stuff about rycar, I've removed it fully. If you don't believe it then that's good enough for me. I apologise for stating that rycar had anything to do with it. I can't be assed chatting with you tbh because let's be honest, you aren't exactly opening lines of communication here. So you can shuffle off back to your own forums now and believe what you want. Cheers, dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:29:00 - [360] Originally by: SwindonBadger U go about things in the wrong way, very bad taste and so wrong to give out that info of people in rl, perhapse if this ends nicly for all others ull not want your own reel life name location and picture posted? U play on the minds of others like a soap opera from tacky land with no regard to the people you accuse other then linning your wallet, the very fact your doing this and trying to claim ingame ships is sickening. Perhapse all those that are so quick jump on the band waggon will want to spank the driver later... then yer lets see where you live please and pic to boot. Bob already posted his real name, and where he lives. And the goons have posted his picture several times.
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:29:00 - [361] Originally by: Evil Thug I think transform t1 cargohold bpos into tech 2 version. Check General Discussion. It was pre-Kali i think (less than 2 months ago). That change was already on sisi 2-3 weeks before the patch so anything that actually had a T1 bpo of the item could see with their own eyes that it had been transformed to a T2 bpo. It's not rocket science. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Myz Toyou the Organ Grinder and Company Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:32:00 - [362] Dian, had you ever sex with Monica Lewinski ? tell us the truth !!! Now ! CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:32:00 - [363] Edited by: Dianabolic on 31/01/2007 16:29:51 Originally by: Angry Dan 1) Are the BoB command team aware of ANY CCP employees or volunteers in BoB? 2) Has BoB been given/stolen or otherwise aqquired any T2 items or rare ships from any CCP employee or volunteer? 3) Has the BoB high command been privvy to any information relating to other in game groups supplied by ANY CCP employees or volunteer? 4) What action does the BoB high command take upon discovering that a BoB member is a CCP employee or volunteer? 1 - No. We certainly do assume that they exist, indeed due to the activity of our members it would be silly of us to believe that we have no volunteers either. I mean, I personally class Farjung as a CCP volunteer, for his unpaid work at the alliance tournament, so there's definitely a "connection". 2 - As per my previous answer, any actions we carry out we carry out against "eve players". Maybe some of them are connected to CCP in some way, we cannot know this and we do not go out of our way to find it out. 3 - Absolutely not. 4 - We don't. Within our alliance we imnplore people that may discover the identity of a ccp employee or volunteer to KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES. When people join bob everyone is treated the same, we don't care if you're royalty or playing eve at some charity inet cafe - no one is any different in this virtual world, we simply do not care who people are in the "real world". Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:34:00 - [364] Originally by: Myz Toyou Dian, had you ever sex with Monica Lewinski ? tell us the truth !!! Now ! I never used my hands to have sex with that woman :D Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Evil Thug Rage and Terror	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:35:00 - [365] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: dimensionZ What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? Fast solution of ingame problems, for example. You are planned fleet op in region XYZ ? Fine, just ask to boost node here. Or not to ask, this guy is human too, and ofc he want to play lag free game. You stucked ? Fine, let me relogin. Everything is within laws. But this creates impression, that eve players are not equal behind law (i.e. GMS). Especially you feel good, when you are waiting senior GM to resolve your matter for 5 hours. Just like i`m doing now You guys are incredible. Devs are not GMs. They cant unstuck you. If you dont know that, you dont know anything. And about node boosts. Let me laugh at that one. And now you are trying to be justified. If you are not guilty - there is no need to do that. Your alliance is very good at making people look like jerks. Xirtram and POS accident. Army of bobs on forums, saying "proof or stfu". Cyvok and his "omgdevxploit". Again, proof or stfu. Again army of bobbits, mudslinging on forums. Really funny, isn`t it ? Or not ? I`ll quote Thekiller8 (like his flash-movies very much) : "OMG, WE DIDN`T LISTEN !"
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:35:00 - [366] Originally by: Mitchman That change was already on sisi 2-3 weeks before the patch so anyone that actually had a T1 bpo of the item could see with their own eyes that it had been transformed to a T2 bpo. It's not rocket science. Ah... Now it becomes clear. To win eve you must play SISI... Praise be... SJ. CLS Director =-
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:35:00 - [367] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, have you ever, or any of RKK's directorship of which you know of, received intricate information about internal EVE game mechanics by other means than patch notes and/or intense testing work of those said mechanics on TQ or Singularity? Nope, tbh I'd like to think if I had I would be able to resist the urge to cheat, I've never done so and I don't intend to start. The fact that RKK do not own either the shield boost amp, cargo expander, or prototype cloak bpos (the ones that got grandfathered iirc) kinda proves that point, no? No, we've never received any hints as to future market (or other) changes that may increase how much isk we have. So, you did not recieve any "secret infos" from t20 relayed to you by dimensionZ? ...now in RED
Godolphin Caldari Black Omega Security Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:36:00 - [368] every time BOB post, "is it just me or can every feel the hate theyre directing at everyone who posts"? is that a guilty sign? PS..ill start the movement any northern corp wanna PVP player for a few weeks to help smoke bob? convo me ingame or mail ill head to torrinos
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:37:00 - [369] Few thingsà 1. Devs/GMs should not be allowed to play on the live server, unless they are specifically identified as Devs/GMs. Sorry, I understand it is important for Devs to have an understanding of game mechanics, but there are a variety of mechanisms for them to do that without being members of player corporations (separate server, collect data from community, have a subset of Devs who solely work on game mechanics but have no decision making authority). Devs as member of player corps suffer from a clear conflict of interest. A real life analogy I have actual experience with: Most grants awarded to scientists in the US occurs through a process called peer review. The theory behind peer review is that a committee of scientists, with expertise in a particular field, judges the merits of grant applications. Academic, government and industry scientists are all asked to serve on these review boards. Theoretically the more knowledge you have of a subject, the better candidate to be a reviewer you are. However, many scientists are recused or recuse themselves if they have any relationship, especially a fiduciary relationship, with the grant they are reviewing. Would these folks theoretically make the best reviewers? Yes, they have the most familiarity and understanding of the subject matter, so they are far more qualified than a scientist from another field to accurately assess the merits of that research project. The problem is that human nature makes it impossible to judge the merits of a idea when you yourself have a tangible stake in that idea, because from a management sense it is impossible to know whether your decision to support that idea is based on your professional opinion, or the possibility of your own personal gain. To extend that analogy to Eve. Would Devs who play the game have a better understanding of game mechanics/issues? Sure. But it would be impossible to determine whether the changes they make are honestly designed to improve all playersÆ game experiences or their own personal game experiences. This is ESPECIALLY true if those Devs are involved with the political entities in Eve, which by there nature are intensely competitive. 2. This is important and will have real life consequences. Yes, we are talking about peopleÆs lives and livelihoods here. It should, because things like this have serious, real-life financial consequences. If the faith of the average player in the impartial arbitration by CCP is threatened it can be a serious black-eye to CCP, resulting in account cancellation and a reduction in new subscriptions. CCP is a business, if I owned or held stock in that business I would be very, very upset if my employees were doing something that was hurting subscriptions, and nothing were done about it. I know it sucks that folks may lose their livelihood based on conduct in a video-game, unrelated to their actual duties, but this happens in the real world all the time. Example: Teacher has a ôrelationshipö outside of school with an 18-year old student. Technically no laws are broken but the appearance of misconduct is grounds enough for dismissal. 3. This has nothing to do with BoB. Whether or not BoB members knew they had a Developer in their corp is completely irrelevant. They are the customer, it is not their responsibility to police CCPÆs misconduct. It is their job to play the game and try to win by any means available. If a company I buy from gives my competitor a lower price, I am not going to be mad at my competitor, I am going to be enraged at the supplier.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:37:00 - [370] Originally by: DB Preacher I can't be assed chatting with you tbh because let's be honest, you aren't exactly opening lines of communication here. So you can shuffle off back to your own forums now and believe what you want. Cheers, dbp Back to your old self, I see? And here I thought asking Evil Thug to contact Dian, Blacklight, and you (since I was blocked) counted as a good faith attempt at communication. Perhaps ET doesn't carry enough weight with you lot to be taken seriously? A pity that you've decided to take an open attempt to talk as another chance to spew your :eveo: drivel, since I'm the only one in this game who's suffered a similar level of hacking at Mr. Zboralski's hands... or perhaps I should pin the blame on Lallante for that, since Lall hired him. Here's a protip then: Try to choose your arguments more carefully. You can say that you were hacked, that crimes were committed, and that Mr. Zboralski is a ****... or you can argue that what he's saying is a smear campaign, a lie, and a witch hunt. You can't argue both, as you and your boys are doing, as they're mutually exclusive. Pick one.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:38:00 - [371] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: dimensionZ What does it have to do with that? What "bonuses" would it grant me? Fast solution of ingame problems, for example. You are planned fleet op in region XYZ ? Fine, just ask to boost node here. Or not to ask, this guy is human too, and ofc he want to play lag free game. You stucked ? Fine, let me relogin. Everything is within laws. But this creates impression, that eve players are not equal behind law (i.e. GMS). Especially you feel good, when you are waiting senior GM to resolve your matter for 5 hours. Just like i`m doing now You guys are incredible. Devs are not GMs. They cant unstuck you. If you dont know that, you dont know anything. And about node boosts. Let me laugh at that one. Devs are higher in hierarchy dont you think that the ones that do the tools ,know and have the means too use it? People arent disgusted about being in bob ,i would just as disgusted if any prof even a remote one,leads too "favoring" certain individuals in game.People are weary becose some "proofs" lead to favoring bob. And that is the most hard F**** S+++++ to swallow in this all afair.I hope that CCP resolves this with a ***** hammer,and wreak the responsible.Ban and wipe the players/gm/devs/mice/cleaning lady with a stick. What some people arent really getting is this is one off those things that destroys a good company name.And after this stuff if 50K users leave do you really think that CCP will be happy?
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:38:00 - [372] yawn I'm gonna lguh my ass off when Kieron posts the conclusions from the CCP investigation of these accusations and it turns out nothing is wrong. Not more then maybe a month or two ago a dev posted in the forums asking people to be so kind to not publicise the player accounts of devs if they ever found one. Devs police themselves when it comes to ingame involvement, theri player chars have no abilities anyone else does not have and I can't think of a single think that recently changed where foreknowledge that is exclusive to CCP employees could have helped anyone get a massive advantage in gameplay. I trust we'll get to hear the conclusions asap, and I'm equally sure it's not going to make one iota of difference to the alt **storm we have to deal with while being in BoB on a daily basis. Old blog Originally by:** Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:38:00 - [373] Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, you did not recieve any "secret infos" from t20 relayed to you by dimensionZ? rofl, information on how to better parse a killmail? Or where to get icons for the ships? Web based "intelligence"? You're having a laugh, yes? How on earth did this "secret infos" get from "in-game advantage" to "out of game websites"? I dare say that because dmZ was so demanding for such information it's a big reason why ccp eventually released all the data. You should be THANKING him, not harassing him. Dear me Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Niobe Farstar	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:39:00 - [374] There's an old saying, "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". If there's one thing this thread shows us it's that BoB don't have any tools in their box to deal with being screwed.
Nicholai Pestot Gallente Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:39:00 - [375] I, personally, believe that the 'misconduct' is likely no more than an employee at CCP letting on to corp/alliance mates who he really is. The true irony is that many, many, many months of 'total war' from BoB has meant that any BoB post on these forums is assumed to be self-serving spin so that no matter how sincere the poster truly is, everyone thinks the worst. Good old BoB eh? At least ill have something to read tonight while the missus is watching her soaps
Godolphin Caldari Black Omega Security Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 - [376] ROFFL u think CCP will admit a dev helped BOB with **** like BPOS u kidding yurself..they no bad business they would lose thousands of $ by peeps quiting.."the invetstigation found no foul play" be real u noobs... open ur eyes!!
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 - [377] "Ah... Now it becomes clear. To win eve you must play SISI..." If you want to see what changes are about to be put in the game with your own eyes, you can indeed do it by checking out test server where they are deployed in advance. This is why this server is out there to begin with. It's not secret knowledge by any means, so can't see why it "becomes clear" now...
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 - [378] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, does your recruitment policy require that the person wanting to join your corporation also reveal person's account name? AFAIK, they must give up their account name for someone in bob to log in and check alts, assets etc. on that account. Well, that's what I heard from former evol members, atleast, it might not be the case anymore. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 - [379] Originally by: Dianabolic If you just want to interview me, Galimiy, feel free to do so through eve-mail. You're now just asking questions for the sake of it. Dodge, dodge, dodge.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:47:00 - [380] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Mitchman Edited by: Mitchman on 31/01/2007 16:29:34 Originally by: Evil Thug I think transform t1 cargohold bpos into tech 2 version. Check General Discussion. It was pre-Kali i think (less than 2 months ago). That change was already on sisi 2-3 weeks before the patch so anyone that actually had a T1 bpo of the item could see with their own eyes that it had been transformed to a T2 bpo. It's not rocket science. Out of interest what does that matter any how? Its not like the the expanded cargo I BPO was a BPO available on the market? As Danny Hawk said this thread should have been locked and just left for info purposes. Yeah we all know how covering up stuff really helps in a PR incident.
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:47:00 - [381] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, you did not recieve any "secret infos" from t20 relayed to you by dimensionZ? rofl, information on how to better parse a killmail? Or where to get icons for the ships? Web based "intelligence"? You're having a laugh, yes? How on earth did this "secret infos" get from "in-game advantage" to "out of game websites"? I dare say that because dmZ was so demanding for such information it's a big reason why ccp eventually released all the data. You should be THANKING him, not harassing him. Dear me So, you had a means of closely working and communicating with a dev about game mechanics that weren't publicly available at the time. Could you please explain means of communication with said dev and how you gained such trust with a dev as to be able to discuss undisclosed game mechanics? ...now in RED
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:47:00 - [382] Originally by: Eponine Astarte Dianbolic: how did you know that the person who petitionned the capital ship director was an alt? Did you actually know that he was an alt, or did you say alt as a stand-in for anonymous? Alternativey are you denying that any of those PM's are real and that you saying such never happened? I meant "Alt" as a term for anonymous, yes. Some of the stuff he has is indeed true, our forums certainly did get hacked. Is it ALL true? Absolutely not. There is ALOT of sensationalism in these posts, mis-truths, half-truths, completely rubbish and all peppered with maybe enough truth to make it believable. Everyone can see that, it's great drama... which is the point, no? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:48:00 - [383] Originally by: Mitchman Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, does your recruitment policy require that the person wanting to join your corporation also reveal person's account name? AFAIK, they must give up their account name for someone in bob to log in and check alts, assets etc. on that account. Well, that's what I heard from former evol members, atleast, it might not be the case anymore. I can't comment on EVOL, I can only comment on RKK. We certainly don't. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:50:00 - [384] Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, you had a means of closely working and communicating with a dev about game mechanics that weren't publicly available at the time. Could you please explain means of communication with said dev and how you gained such trust with a dev as to be able to discuss undisclosed game mechanics? Yep, we have an amazing method of communication that is beyond the normal eve players subscription. It's this thing called "eeeeee-maaaaaail". And, are you being purposely obtuse? "How to better parse a killmail"? "Where to get icons"? You DO know what constitutes a game "mechanic", disclosed or otherwise, yes? Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:51:00 - [385] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: DB Preacher I can't be assed chatting with you tbh because let's be honest, you aren't exactly opening lines of communication here. So you can shuffle off back to your own forums now and believe what you want. Cheers, dbp Back to your old self, I see? And here I thought asking Evil Thug to contact Dian, Blacklight, and you (since I was blocked) counted as a good faith attempt at communication. Perhaps ET doesn't carry enough weight with you lot to be taken seriously? A pity that you've decided to take an open attempt to talk as another chance to spew your :eveo: drivel, since I'm the only one in this game who's suffered a similar level of hacking at Mr. Zboralski's hands... or perhaps I should pin the blame on Lallante for that, since Lall hired him. Here's a protip then: Try to choose your arguments more carefully. You can say that you were hacked, that crimes were committed, and that Mr. Zboralski is a **... or you can argue that what he's saying is a smear campaign, a lie, and a witch hunt. You can't argue both, as you and your boys are doing, as they're mutually exclusive. Pick one. Whatever dude. I said you could come and contact me directly and I would have happily passed on what we had because this guy needs to be out of eve now regardless of our disagreements in the past between any of the alliances in eve. However, you had to come on and be an ass about it in some vain effort to make yourself look like good. Grats, I couldn't careless. However, like I said, I apologise to Rycar for using his name in this. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto**
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:51:00 - [386] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, does your recruitment policy require that the person wanting to join your corporation also reveal person's account name? Does that question have anything to do with this topic? If you just want to interview me, Galimiy, feel free to do so through eve-mail. You're now just asking questions for the sake of it. I am assuming this whole matter to be as of much importance to the whole EVE-community and as a rank and file member of said community I feel it needs to be discussed in public. ...now in RED
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:52:00 - [387] There is a reason why all democratic countries have a system where the prosecution have to prove the defendant guilty and not require the defendant to prove his innocence. There is no way bob can prove their innocence in this spectacle, and I don't really understand why they are even trying. Someone wants them to provide logs of evidence that the OP story didn't happen. How can you possibly prove that something did NOT happen in this context? And lastly, outing devs is really bad and I don't think the OP really knows what implications this can have in RL for that person or for the game in general. If they have suspicions about dev using their behind-the-scenes power to gain anything they would not have access to using regular gameplay, then a email to Kieron would be the way to solve it. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:52:00 - [388] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, does your recruitment policy require that the person wanting to join your corporation also reveal person's account name? Does that question have anything to do with this topic? If you just want to interview me, Galimiy, feel free to do so through eve-mail. You're now just asking questions for the sake of it. I am assuming this whole matter to be as of much importance to the whole EVE-community and as a rank and file member of said community I feel it needs to be discussed in public. And this stops you publishing your logs, how? Won't get you as much attnetion? I reply to eve-mail, try using it, you won't get any further response from me here. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
dellie Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:52:00 - [389] Hi, I'm a Developer for CCP. I earn about 7000+ euro's a month to develop and play a game. During my playing time i am one of the players for a well known alliance. An alliance that most players don't like or are afraid off. And one night, at bandcamp, i decided it was funny to put my real life job and honor at risk, by giving my well known fellow alliance leader a couple tech two blueprints in game via my developer tools. snip Please don't resort to flaming -Eldo ([email protected]) I don't like BoB, at all.. But do you realy think this is a story that could happen? A person would risk his job.. just to get a couple bpo's into the alliance ingame where he plays in his little spare time.. If someone in here even considers to answer yes to this.. Then please buy such a vest and press the button: snip Please don't troll -Eldo It's great being a Gallente that flies... errr... Gallente.. Right?!?!
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:54:00 - [390] Originally by: Godolphin ROFFL u think CCP will admit a dev helped BOB with **** like BPOS u kidding yurself..they no bad business they would lose thousands of $ by peeps quiting.."the invetstigation found no foul play" be real u noobs... open ur eyes!! Surely if a Dev has helped his alliance and this is found out said Dev will be sacked and however he helped his alliance IE BPOs will be removed. This will not loose CCP players it will show that they do something about unfair game play and they will not stand for it. So..... why don't you wait to see what happens, although as you are clearly a BOB hater no matter what happens you will still rather say "BOB are Haxcheaters" than the fact they are just good at what they do kinda sad really .
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:54:00 - [391] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Eponine Astarte Dianbolic: how did you know that the person who petitionned the capital ship director was an alt? Did you actually know that he was an alt, or did you say alt as a stand-in for anonymous? Alternativey are you denying that any of those PM's are real and that you saying such never happened? I meant "Alt" as a term for anonymous, yes. Some of the stuff he has is indeed true, our forums certainly did get hacked. Is it ALL true? Absolutely not. There is ALOT of sensationalism in these posts, mis-truths, half-truths, completely rubbish and all peppered with maybe enough truth to make it believable. Everyone can see that, it's great drama... which is the point, no? Personally i dont give a rats ass about the drama,the forum bob warriors are doing the drama. I has a player really want CCP to come out and say wtf happened,that is all.Because i love the game and the DEVS and i would hate to leave it and find another game.
Eversmiling Hodja Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:54:00 - [392] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: DB Preacher I can't be assed chatting with you tbh because let's be honest, you aren't exactly opening lines of communication here. So you can shuffle off back to your own forums now and believe what you want. Cheers, dbp Back to your old self, I see? And here I thought asking Evil Thug to contact Dian, Blacklight, and you (since I was blocked) counted as a good faith attempt at communication. Perhaps ET doesn't carry enough weight with you lot to be taken seriously? A pity that you've decided to take an open attempt to talk as another chance to spew your :eveo: drivel, since I'm the only one in this game who's suffered a similar level of hacking at Mr. Zboralski's hands... or perhaps I should pin the blame on Lallante for that, since Lall hired him. Here's a protip then: Try to choose your arguments more carefully. You can say that you were hacked, that crimes were committed, and that Mr. Zboralski is a ****... or you can argue that what he's saying is a smear campaign, a lie, and a witch hunt. You can't argue both, as you and your boys are doing, as they're mutually exclusive. Pick one. Whatever dude. I said you could come and contact me directly and I would have happily passed on what we had because this guy needs to be out of eve now regardless of our disagreements in the past between any of the alliances in eve. However, you had to come on and be an ass about it in some vain effort to make yourself look like good. Grats, I couldn't careless. However, like I said, I apologise to Rycar for using his name in this. dbp DB Preacher's mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully-constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them; to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that fairplay was impossible and that the BoB was the guardian of fairplay; to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the art of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved using doublethink...
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:55:00 - [393] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, you had a means of closely working and communicating with a dev about game mechanics that weren't publicly available at the time. Could you please explain means of communication with said dev and how you gained such trust with a dev as to be able to discuss undisclosed game mechanics? Yep, we have an amazing method of communication that is beyond the normal eve players subscription. It's this thing called "eeeeee-maaaaaail". And, are you being purposely obtuse? "How to better parse a killmail"? "Where to get icons"? You DO know what constitutes a game "mechanic", disclosed or otherwise, yes? Could you please publish the complete e-mail conversation in subject? ...now in RED
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:55:00 - [394] Originally by: j0sephine "Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V"" When was last time this kind of change happened, vs introduction of entirely new modules? Or when was a ship module changed to significant degree without landing on the test server first for people to check it out and ***** about changes in the 'ships and modules'? Seriously, as far as stupid theoretical examples of what "could" happen go, this one probably takes the cake. Yes, devs are utter morons who turn basic modules into uber weapons without notifying player base they are actually going to introduce new mechanics, and without allowing them to test these first. Please --;; Taht would probably be the Cargo Expander I BPOs being upgraded to Cargo Expander II BPO's, which was what, 2 months ago? Less? If I'd had a tip off about that a week or two in advance, I'd be a rich man about now. -----------------------------------------------
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:56:00 - [395] Originally by: Dianabolic And this stops you publishing your logs, how? Won't get you as much attnetion? I reply to eve-mail, try using it, you won't get any further response from me here. Because we all know just how terrible it would be for this information to be made public, right?
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:56:00 - [396] "You can say that you were hacked, that crimes were committed, and that Mr. Z________ is a ***... or you can argue that what he's saying is a smear campaign, a lie, and a witch hunt. You can't argue both, as you and your boys are doing, as they're mutually exclusive. Pick one." It's hardly uncommon to provide some bits of truth to make the big lie one is trying to sell more believeable. So no, i don't think there's a need to 'pick one' unless we want to be very naive about possibilities of the whole deal. For the record i have no idea nor way to tell if the information he posted is true. But the fact he did have access to some info doesn't automatically make it a proof in my eyes that what he's posting actually is* that info and nothing but it. Especially when at the same time he's using it as blackmail attempt to get a free mothership and get person he dislikes kicked from a corp.
dellie Darwin With Attitude	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:57:00 - [397] Edited by: dellie on 31/01/2007 16:55:00 Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: dellie ... Erm the faction fitted scorpion rings a bell?Troll.. maybe that was a GM? and maybe they are volunteers? noob It's great being a Gallente that flies... errr... Gallente.. Right?!?!
Vily Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:57:00 - [398] Originally by: Hardin Devs in BoB - yes Devs in other alliances - yes Devs cheating to assist ingame alliances - proof or stfu... I think this has been probably the most simple and effective part of any post here. -
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:00:00 - [399] Originally by: dellie Edited by: dellie on 31/01/2007 16:55:00 Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: dellie ... Erm the faction fitted scorpion rings a bell?Troll.. maybe that was a GM? and maybe they are volunteers? noob GM volunteers?
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:01:00 - [400] Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 16:57:52 Originally by: Pesadel0 Personally i dont give a rats ass about the drama,the forum bob warriors are doing the drama. I has a player really want CCP to come out and say wtf happened,that is all.Because i love the game and the DEVS and i would hate to leave it and find another game. You're the drama queen here, go troll elsewhere.
Trask Kilraen The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:02:00 - [401] Originally by: dellie But do you realy think this is a story that could happen? A person would risk his job.. just to get a couple bpo's into the alliance ingame where he plays in his little spare time.. Yes it could. I was involved in a previous game where something very similar DID happen. Why? The dev beleived that 1) They wouldn't get caught, and that 2) Even if caught, they wouldn't be severely punished. Because of this, many development companies do not allow their developers to get the goodies on the liver servers. Or else they severely limit their ability to participate in player organizations.
Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:05:00 - [402] Originally by: Sinlare You're the drama queen here, go troll elsewhere. Wanting more information to be known? How horrible!
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:06:00 - [403] Originally by: Anonymous Coward Originally by: Sinlare You're the drama queen here, go troll elsewhere. Wanting more information to be known? How horrible! Sadly, the post it was meant to quote has already been deleted, though by the same person. So yes, he's still a troll.
Claire Lacombe Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:07:00 - [404] Originally by: DB Preacher Edited by: DB Preacher on 31/01/2007 16:26:48 Originally by: The Mittani My dearest darling -dbp, and or any BoB here who have his MSN; You want me to contact you about your accusations towards my man Rycar, yet you have blocked my alliance, shockingly enough, so I cannot evemail you even if you were online. See page 4 of this trainwreck of a thread for reference. Most of EVE already knows my MSN, so here it is: [email protected] It's not like it hasn't been leaked in innumerable chatlogs already. Call me, we'll talk, I'll throw in some linebreaks to make you feel more at ease. doh sorry, I'm not at home to remove that. It was from when we were at war. However, you can ignore the stuff about rycar, I've removed it fully. If you don't believe it then fair enough. I apologise for stating that rycar had anything to do with it. I can't be assed chatting with you tbh because let's be honest, you aren't exactly opening lines of communication here. So you can shuffle off back to your own forums now and believe what you want. Cheers, dbp It's funny how you and your 'pets' cry endlessly in this thread about the unfair allegations about BoB, yet you feel perfectly alright with accusing another Eve player of committing felonies based on mysterious evidence that you now refuse to submit. I swear to Christ some of you people eat, breathe and **** out cognitive dissonance.
Thalera Saldana Minmatar Oxymorons from Outer Space	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:07:00 - [405] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Could you please publish the complete e-mail conversation in subject? Galimiy you are being an idiot. Dmz and Diana have already stated that: - the information was about killmail parsing and ship icons - the information was received through Dev-chats and email None of this information is game sensitive, it is only helpful for killboards. It helps the whole comunity. It was obtained through methods available to the whole community. Let It Drop Thal
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:08:00 - [406] Originally by: j0sephine Especially when at the same time he's using it as blackmail attempt to get a free mothership and get person he dislikes kicked from a corp. You seem reasonable enough. Best advice I can give you is to absolutely do not, do not, do not give him anything he wants. No isk, no 'hiring him on retainer', nothing. Don't agree to have 'intelligence cooperation', just stonewall him and eventually he will move on and go after more interesting, high profile targets. Or at least he did with us. Also, buy your server admin a pack of Red Bull and send him boxes of chocolates, because the poor guy is going to be up for a long, long time coding and securing. This tends to make them very cranky (and in our case made him put bees absolutely everywhere). Force your members to change pws regularly, and fine them if they have easily-broken pws. Other than that, duck and pray. He's in Indonesia so the 'normal channels' of dealing with something like this don't work. About the only thing to do right now is ask CCP to ban his accounts, but since most of what he's doing is purely in the metagame that won't stop him having his fun (fame, notoriety, your reactions) at his expense. Most hackers don't do it for the money, they do it for the chance to display their 'power' over their victim and for the attention it gets them. When he mirrored our forums, we kept it quiet; when he nuked my LV agents (Superspyno and DeCoup, and Tepper's account on lotka.org) we kept it quiet. I think that bored him. Of course with what he's doing to you guys you can't keep it quiet because he's very publically blabbing it to the world, but you can try to tone down the amount of reaction he's getting out of you. There's a lot of crap out there about the psychology of hackers. It's not pretty stuff. Anyways, my darling dearest -dbp nonwithstanding, and ignoring for now the veracity or lack thereof of Mr. Zboralski's allegations, you guys have my sympathy. We had to deal with this crap for two months straight and it played absolute havoc with our enjoyment of the game and Solo nearly quit over it. Bad times.
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:11:00 - [407] Edited by: Treelox on 31/01/2007 17:13:40 MODS just lock this thread, nothing new of substance from either side has been provided. It has just become a baiting, trolling flamefest since page 4. All of you who have posted, sit back, close you browser, enjoy the rest of your day, and stop thinking about it. Kieron has said that CCP will deal with this, give them some time to do it. It took god 7 days to build the earth, im sure it will take CCP more than 8hrs to fully and properly investigate these alligations. For those of you that dont even believe that CCP will fairly investigate this matter, just pack up now, if you have lost faith in CCP. Your bitterness towards the developers of the game that most of the rest of us love, is just going to cause you to be spiteful always. -- Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:11:00 - [408] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, does your recruitment policy require that the person wanting to join your corporation also reveal person's account name? Does that question have anything to do with this topic? If you just want to interview me, Galimiy, feel free to do so through eve-mail. You're now just asking questions for the sake of it. I am assuming this whole matter to be as of much importance to the whole EVE-community and as a rank and file member of said community I feel it needs to be discussed in public. And this stops you publishing your logs, how? Won't get you as much attnetion? I reply to eve-mail, try using it, you won't get any further response from me here. I assume that RKK's directorship has nothing to hide from the public and thats why I assume the freedom to ask these question in public. Your lack of will to answer questions cast a shadow on your credibility. Again, I would like to know how did you gain such a level of trust with a dev as to be able to discuss undisclosed game mechanics? ...now in RED
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:14:00 - [409] I would like to give props to kugutsumen for lighting the forums on fire and then trying to put it out with gasoline Half Assed Rhymage
Comstr Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:17:00 - [410] Well Band Of Brothers, Karma comes back to you eventually. Like all things on the fourms, it won't change the in game. But it certinaly is telling. To CCP: you devs are expected to play the game, to observe it, to see how things play out. They don't need to lead so much as a squadron or get a T2 BPO from the lottery to do that.
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:17:00 - [411] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I would like to give props to kugutsumen for lighting the forums on fire and then trying to put it out with gasoline Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums you sir are a muppet.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:24:00 - [412] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I would like to give props to kugutsumen for lighting the forums on fire and then trying to put it out with gasoline Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums you sir are a muppet. Well considering ccp offers this $15 for intel thing the fact that he gets things his way dosen't really bother me that much. Half Assed Rhymage
Kahlil Dass Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:26:00 - [413] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Kahlil Dass I am aware that these are still allegations, and you are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, but this surely stinks something fierce. Ok, this is it. How do you know about anyone proxies ? How would you know ? Oh, kungutsumen told you that. There are 127.0.0.1 entries. THat gotta be a proxy to hide the fact we are all cheating GMs/Devs. Or it could be squid ? Or administrators taking the ips to another level of logging ? Or one million other possibilities. Once again, you are all basing your so said "facts" on baseless "proofs" from a guy who is so much Jealous of successfull alliances and groups that he had to use IRL basic hacking methods to mess with people game. You should just all be ashamed of what you are doing. I did say you were entitled to the benefit of the doubt, I stand by that. It's just speculation pending a full investigation. If the allegations are accurate then it does stink of forehand knowledge and facilitation of anonymity. If it's a proxy that's in use by many members, or if it's common to have so many of a user's posts and private messages deleted, well that should all be borne out through investigation and you have nothing to worry about. Judgment will be reserved until then. I hope BoB will be fully cooperative with the CCP investigation in order to clear their name. The whole thing could be entirely fabricated, but if so, it has been done so with a thoroughness and skill that makes it pretty believable in my eyes, and obviously in the eyes of many members of this community. Furthermore, we may be inclined to believe because BoB seem to have had spates of really good "luck" that have benefited them at the expense of their enemies. Maybe you're just lucky. Maybe you make your own luck. If you have done nothing wrong then the investigation will exonerate you. Spare us the indignant chest thumping, it is unbecoming and seems a little desperate.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:28:00 - [414] Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Ingame spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. So called ingame spying that stays in game may not be a crime or even be untoward. Potentially fraudulent misrepresentation to gain access to resources in which individuals have property interests (web servers, bandwidth, teamspeak servers, some personal information) is very close to gaining access to these same resources without permission by "hacking". Lying your way into access to information and property you otherwise would have no acess to certainly seems more artful than simply forcing your way in, but it is very ignorant to completely ignore the similiarity between the two acts. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:30:00 - [415] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I would like to give props to kugutsumen for lighting the forums on fire and then trying to put it out with gasoline its great! now the forums almost feels like the old days again with a fire burning like mad in every part of the forums. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent? Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:30:00 - [416] Originally by: Hardin STOP WITH THE FECKING WITCH HUNT Devs play EVE. Some Devs are in BoB and some are in other alliances. That is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether the devs have used their 'magical powers' to influence the game. I personally do not believe that to be the case and I have seen ZERO evidence that they have. I have won 3 BPOs in the lottery over time. If I decided to leave the game and give them to my alliance would that be evidence that I was a dev? No it wouldn't... Devs in BoB - yes Devs in other alliances - yes Devs cheating to assist ingame alliances - proof or stfu... I am shocked, I agree 100% with an AMARR! More people need to read this post tbh, and really grasp what It is saying. If a dev abused his power, its the devs fault for abusing his/her power and not bobs. Whats bob going to do, question where they are getting the bpo's from? Would your alliance question it? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:30:00 - [417] Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: jeNK Originally by: dimensionZ Originally by: Kahlil Dass Originally by: Dianabolic We've never said there were no devs in bob, we've always said that even if there are, we still don't care - and that goes for every alliance in this game. In fact, if you can be bothered to research my posts, you'd see that I HOPE THERE ARE DEVS IN EVERY ALLIANCE. How on earth else are they going to improve this game, if they do not play it? Mind reading? The allegations suggest that not only did RKK know that the character supplying them with T2 BPOs was a dev, they facilitated their anonymous posting to prevent this from being uncovered through the use of a proxy on the server hosting the RKK forums. I am aware that these are still allegations, and you are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, but this surely stinks something fierce. Ok, this is it. How do you know about anyone proxies ? How would you know ? Oh, kungutsumen told you that. There are 127.0.0.1 entries. THat gotta be a proxy to hide the fact we are all cheating GMs/Devs. Or it could be squid ? Or administrators taking the ips to another level of logging ? Or one million other possibilities. Once again, you are all basing your so said "facts" on baseless "proofs" from a guy who is so much Jealous of successfull alliances and groups that he had to use IRL basic hacking methods to mess with people game. You should just all be ashamed of what you are doing. Prove he is a hacker. Also, by your own alliances members claiming he is a hacker, do you not realise that gives more credibility to his claims? Your want proofs ? Catch me ingame. Only just spotted this (thanks to someone informing me) I shall evemail you later tonight, still at work atm :)
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:32:00 - [418] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums snip Keep it polite -Eldo if you had proof then you should take it up with the proper authoroties instead of making baseless accusations you cannot prove. his story could be true you know. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent? Quote: jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:34:00 - [419] Originally by: Baun Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Ingame spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. So called ingame spying that stays in game may not be a crime or even be untoward. Potentially fraudulent misrepresentation to gain access to resources in which individuals have property interests (web servers, bandwidth, teamspeak servers, some personal information) is very close to gaining access to these same resources without permission by "hacking". Lying your way into access to information and property you otherwise would have no acess to certainly seems more artful than simply forcing your way in, but it is very ignorant to completely ignore the similiarity between the two acts. This thread is good, it gets all less scrupulous people to come out and defend snip, so we know who to shun. snip Please don't post personal information on the forums -Eldo ([email protected])
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:35:00 - [420] It seems you are discussing what BoB has done wrong, but the thread title surely refers to dev conduct. I'll phrase out something hinted to earlier, confirm or deny as you please (but remember you said you don't lie BoB ) Some people get banned for account sharing. Just about every large alliance deals in rampant account sharing, but I suppose it is rarely petitioned. A dev was in charge of BoB's capital fleet. Like any other speedy combat force, they have a whole bunch of cyno alts that are shared between the capital fleet officers. This dev might then not only have looked the other way on a bannable EULA offense, thereby giving BoB a free pass where others get banned, but might even actively have planned, instructed and used said cyno alts. Very bad. When it comes to learning about events before they happen, did in fact any Serpentis outpost stuff take place in Fountain? I don't know, and the logs say 2005 so it could certainly be pure fabrication. If it is pure fabrication, I give much credit to the author for the detailed catfight where the directors whine about not being in the loop, but have no beef about the inside knowledge they are getting. ------ [SILD]
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:37:00 - [421] Originally by: Reiisha People are idiots. 1) Do you seriously expect the devs to not play the game they are making? Do you expect id or epic to not play quake or unreal? Do you expect blizzard to not play WoW? Are you idiots? Do you really want to start calling anyone who disagrees with you an idiot? It just shows a lack of maturity on your part. Maybe you're a youngster, it is, afterall, a game. If so it's understandable, but still. Try to discuss the ideas, and not the people. As has been said several times, they can play in the test server if they want to play for fun. If the purpose of them playing is for QA, they could easily set up a player panel (who aren't devs and have no "inside knowledge" of what's going on behind the firewall) to bounce ideas off of and get feedback from people who are playing daily. Yes, I expect the makers of those games not to play if there is a conflict of interest, or even if them playing on the side of a particular faction in the game gives the appearance of a conflict if interest. It's the right thing to do. Quote: 2) Even if a dev plays a game, i trust them that they don't create advantages for themselves. It's that simple. That stands to reason, since the dev involved here was playing on your team. You'll have to excuse everyone else here if they don't have the same confidence level that you do, especially since the dev involved was holding T-2 BPOs that benefitted your alliance. It just looks wrong, Reiisha, and that's bad for the game. If you can't see that, you're letting your partisan emotions get the better of you. Quote: 3) Why the hell are people defending "proof" that's provided by a hacker that is just trying to annoy people? I ask again, are you all idiots? Same reason they tolerate "proof" by way of recordings of enemy teamspeak or postings of their private forums here, I reckon. When people find out secrets, it's news. Quote: 4) Why the hell is it that BoB gets all this ** over them? I'll tell you why. People are jealous, and sore losers. They make up excuses for losing. They don't want to hear that it's their own bloody fault. People want an excuse of why they aren't as good as BoB, and they don't want to hear that they're simply not that good. I'll just answer the question i asked 2 times before: They are idiots. They want to ruin the game for everyone just because they can't take it that they lost to people who were simply better than them. In the WCG, people shake hands after a match. In EVE, they start accusing each other of cheating. How is this not a fd up situation? Well, you were responding to my post here, and I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't mention BoB once. What I suggested is that in a competitive game it's bad business to have developers taking sides. Even if nothing bad is going on, it stinks. I don't think that there is any benefit to the developers playing this game on the live server that outweighs the loss of reputation that comes with it. If this guy was outted in my own alliance, I'd be saying the very same things here. I'm most interested in the reputation of the game. I've played games that went down the tubes. It's not fun. Quote:** It's just hilarious to see people who know absolutely nothing about anything relating to this coming in and speaking like they know everything. Again, they are idiots, and i really hope they don't start attacking me for saying this, but realizing what the hell they're doing and start to stop behaving like this. All I know is what has been tacitly confirmed by CCP and your alliance. Someone in your alliance was a dev, and a question arose as to how he came by some of the T-2 BPOs he was holding. My comments here are based only on knowledge that's in the public domain. If that makes me an idiot in your eyes, I guess I'll just have to choose not to care. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:37:00 - [422] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Baun Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Ingame spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. So called ingame spying that stays in game may not be a crime or even be untoward. Potentially fraudulent misrepresentation to gain access to resources in which individuals have property interests (web servers, bandwidth, teamspeak servers, some personal information) is very close to gaining access to these same resources without permission by "hacking". Lying your way into access to information and property you otherwise would have no acess to certainly seems more artful than simply forcing your way in, but it is very ignorant to completely ignore the similiarity between the two acts. This thread is good, it gets all less scrupulous people to come out and defend Anthony Zboralski, so we know who to shun. I am not defending someone who committs a computer crime, I am suggesting that we condemn all people who do that even those whose "crime" is fraud instead of forcible entry without permission. Trying to completely separate hacking and lying that gain access to the same very real resources that are out of game is simply disingenuos. There is no question that hacking is worse, but there should be no suggestion that misrepresenting yourself should be acceptable when dealing with out of game resources. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:38:00 - [423] Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Traxio Nacho Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums snip Keep it polite -Eldo if you had proof then you should take it up with the proper authoroties instead of making baseless accusations you cannot prove. his story could be true you know. I believe BOB have proof and so do goonswarm?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:40:00 - [424] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Traxio Nacho Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums snip Keep it polite -Eldo if you had proof then you should take it up with the proper authoroties instead of making baseless accusations you cannot prove. his story could be true you know. I believe BOB have proof and so do goonswarm? We do, but the laws involved (international) and time required (immense) basically mean nothing will get done. It would require a civil suit, as the police have fat better things to do than chase someone who has already been convicted of computer crimes, committing crimes against "gamers". /me shrugs. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Lars Erlkonig Caldari Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:41:00 - [425] Honestly I'd be fine with Devs&GM's only playing with their main accounts. ala Sharkbait joining ASCN during their fight with BOB. The fact that CCP employees have accounts in major alliances and can possibly compete in things like the alliance tournament where they can win ships to the exclusion of the general player base is just plain wrong. Do lotteries--besides the tech II one in EVE--allow employees to compete in them? If a judge has a vested interest in a case, either personally or fiscally, should they be allowed to make decisions on that matter? By giving people with real control over the game elements multiple characters that can benefit from changes in these elements, CCP is only making it more tempting to cheat the system. If the GM's need to test the servers, let them make their presence known in an open and transparent fashion. Isn't that what they have the polaris, etc frigates for? With player volunteers in ISD helping to design game content and getting bug info, as opposed to just manning the help channel/monitor forums, things become even more suspect. Part of Quality Assurance is makng sure that characters don't need to worry about playing on an uneven playing arena. Selective POS issues, character moving, node crash handling, lag handling, and reimbursements would all be easier to understand if it were certain the the CCP employees had _absolutely_ no interest in the outcome of their actions besides ensuring play parity. Basically get rid of all Dev alts (not mains) and avoid crap like this in the future.
Irongut M'8'S	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:42:00 - [426] Most of you need to calm down and read the quote below. Then go back to playing with your spaceships and stop needlessly persecuting people who have probably done nothing wrong. When CCP say they'll get back to us after an investigation they don't mean the same day (or month probably) and none of you are helping. Originally by: Hardin STOP WITH THE FECKING WITCH HUNT Devs play EVE. Some Devs are in BoB and some are in other alliances. That is beyond dispute. What is in dispute is whether the devs have used their 'magical powers' to influence the game. I personally do not believe that to be the case and I have seen ZERO evidence that they have. I have won 3 BPOs in the lottery over time. If I decided to leave the game and give them to my alliance would that be evidence that I was a dev? No it wouldn't... Devs in BoB - yes Devs in other alliances - yes Devs cheating to assist ingame alliances - proof or stfu...
Turix Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:42:00 - [427] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Traxio Nacho Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums snip Keep it polite -Eldo if you had proof then you should take it up with the proper authoroties instead of making baseless accusations you cannot prove. his story could be true you know. I believe BOB have proof and so do goonswarm? We do, but the laws involved (international) and time required (immense) basically mean nothing will get done. It would require a civil suit, as the police have fat better things to do than chase someone who has already been convicted of computer crimes, committing crimes against "gamers". /me shrugs. Even if they did chase him down, arest and charge him - most he'd get probably is a slap on the wrist and a fine. \| Image Hosting \| Eve Homeworld \|
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:43:00 - [428] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Baun Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Ingame spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. So called ingame spying that stays in game may not be a crime or even be untoward. Potentially fraudulent misrepresentation to gain access to resources in which individuals have property interests (web servers, bandwidth, teamspeak servers, some personal information) is very close to gaining access to these same resources without permission by "hacking". Lying your way into access to information and property you otherwise would have no acess to certainly seems more artful than simply forcing your way in, but it is very ignorant to completely ignore the similiarity between the two acts. This thread is good, it gets all less scrupulous people to come out and defend Anthony Zboralski, so we know who to shun. I am not defending someone who committs a computer crime, I am suggesting that we condemn all people who do that even those whose "crime" is fraud instead of forcible entry without permission. Trying to completely separate hacking and lying that gain access to the same very real resources that are out of game is simply disingenuos. There is no question that hacking is worse, but there should be no suggestion that misrepresenting yourself should be acceptable when dealing with out of game resources. This goes back full circle to the argument about using out of game resources tho, Baun. If you require as a mandatory registration, such as we do in RKK, that to be in RKK you MUST join our forums, where does that leave the "profession" of espionage? I won't be entering in to this debate here, btw, we both know each others position, I do reject the notion that hacking is in any way similar to normal, eve-based, espionage. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:45:00 - [429] Originally by: Turix Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Traxio Nacho Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums snip Keep it polite -Eldo if you had proof then you should take it up with the proper authoroties instead of making baseless accusations you cannot prove. his story could be true you know. I believe BOB have proof and so do goonswarm? We do, but the laws involved (international) and time required (immense) basically mean nothing will get done. It would require a civil suit, as the police have fat better things to do than chase someone who has already been convicted of computer crimes, committing crimes against "gamers". /me shrugs. Even if they did chase him down, arest and charge him - most he'd get probably is a slap on the wrist and a fine. In his home country, indeed. In the States... the technology laws are a bit more draconian afaik. Regardless of that, I have no wish to see anyone sent to jail for playing a computer game. I do find it sad that he isn't "playing" the game, though. That's why we'll continue to reject his blackmail attempts, nothing he is doing, or can do, will stop us being effective IN-GAME. And until he can achieve that, he'll never win. Quote: 2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:45:00 - [430] Edited by: The Mittani on 31/01/2007 17:44:45 ^^^^ Actually in the US he'd need to do at least $5000 USD in damage to even have the issue considered. Over here if there's no damages that can be proven, there's no prosecution. Originally by: Traxio Nacho I believe BOB have proof and so do goonswarm? Proof in computer crime is very hard to get. First, there's ip masking. A hacker can bounce his commands through many boxes before he touches yours, and those boxes will always be in multiple countries to make life as legally complicated as possible. Second, in a court of law you need to show that this person was at the computer, engaging in the hacking. Do we know this is Mr. snip? It could be just some guy assuming his identity. A competent attorney will be able to seriously muddy the waters there. Then there's damages, and it's tough to prove Internet Space Game damages in a court of law. Guys, guys, my secret internet space spies got exposed! Fine him.... uh... how much? And we're not even getting into the 'He lives in snip, where there is no internet security law at all' or the international legal complications. So anyway, we 'know' it's him, and we're mad, but can we prove it to the point that it'll accomplish any particular end besides :words: on this forum? No. Personal information removed. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Sunder Tseng Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:47:00 - [431] Originally by: Sinlare This thread is good, it gets all less scrupulous people to come out and defend snip, so we know who to shun. Well you seem to be plenty happy to be defending bob, because presenting false information for the purpose of obtaining private/sensitive information is illegal, or pretexting, or what ninety-nine percent of the spies in this game do, is a crime in most parts of the world ---- it is a tale/Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,/Signifying nothing.
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:49:00 - [432] Guys, you're missing the point entirely about why having a dev in the game on someone's side is a bad thing. It's not foreknowledge of what's going to happen that's bad, it's shaping what's going to happen. When you play the game with a group of players, their problems become your problems, and their issues become your issues. If you're someone who has a say in what gets nerfed next, or what gets fixed next, or what gets upgraded next, it's going to be damn neigh impossible for you not to have an opinion about those things based on the part of the game that you see when you play, and the issues that are nearest and dearest to you and your playing companions. When prioritizing future development, maintainence, and enhancements, the devs should have the "big picture", meaning looking at petitions and feedback coming from the community as a whole, not the "little picture" that they get from playing daily within a specific group. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:49:00 - [433] Please do not post personal information, including RL names. ___ Email Us \| Forum Rules \| Our Website EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER

Anonymous Coward Gallente Panopticon Citadel	Posted - 2007.01.31 17:59:00 - [434] Originally by: RemDakar Every player who finds this completely unacceptable should cancel thier subscriptions until CCP actually resolves this issue. CCP needs to be shown that this won't be tolerated within the community and we need to hit them where it will have the biggest affect, in the wallet. costing them a large amount of subscription costs will force them to make changes. Perhaps cancel and let them know we intend to renew if this situation is handled in a satisfactory fashion.
Stede Bonnet Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:03:00 - [435] Originally by: Galimiy Portret So, you had a means of closely working and communicating with a dev about game mechanics that weren't publicly available at the time. Could you please explain means of communication with said dev and how you gained such trust with a dev as to be able to discuss undisclosed game mechanics? You guys are so beep.. HE SAID IT WAS IN A DEV-BLOG and via DEV-CHATS on IRC. PUBLIC INFO.... Stop with the pollution of the thread already, and READ BEFORE YOU POST. JESUS. Polite, no profanity please -Eldo
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:06:00 - [436] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 31/01/2007 17:56:40 Think before spouting your rubbish ffs. We're talking at least a hundred CCP employee owned accounts active in Eve Online, most likely spread around every alliance, profession, region and security status out there. And thank god that's how it propbaly is because otherwise there'd be no reason to suppose CCP could ever make this game better then it is. Uhhh... yeah. My "rubbish" is based on about 20 years in the software development business. What is it that you're basing your "rubbish" on? In the couple of decades, I've designed, created, and maintained countless applications that I never used myself, but that served the needs of their users well. The techniques for doing this are well known to anyone fit to be called a software engineer. This is the same old crap from you, Rod, frankly. All bully and bluster, and just no damn substance at all. I don't open my mouth unless I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should consider doing the same. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:08:00 - [437] That what can't be tolerated ? Devs playing Eve ? Devs in alliances ? Devs running missions ? Devs in BoB ? Devs, period ? What is your problem exactly ? Is it the bit abou the serpentis event ? Let me tell you something about that one. It happened in 2005, there were a few player groups involved and most of those got contacted upfront by the events department so that there wouldn't be a ***storm a la PA-getting-their-knickers-twisted because all of a sudeen there's events chars shooting player POS's using event-spawned dreadnoughts. Doesn't that sound somewhat logical to you ? Informing the players affected that something's going to happen. As it turned out the whoel event arc of 6 months never got going beyond some serpentis+celes gang attacking nol-m9 and getting shot to pieces, which was fun to all the people involved and thus was a relative success (as opposed to instances of similar nature where affected alliances did not get warning maybe ?) As a player I might not always be on CCP's good side, and I certainly criticise them enough. But what you guys are doing is taking vague crap allegations and using it to wage an offense against their buisiness, not their ingame corporations or alliance or whatever. You are really, really, no, REALLY sad pieces of work. Especially the hatemongers like out good old fanboy from votf that could jsut not try and get a cheap kick in earlier in this thread. Old blog Originally by:* Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:11:00 - [438] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Galimiy Portret Dian, does your recruitment policy require that the person wanting to join your corporation also reveal person's account name? Does that question have anything to do with this topic? If you just want to interview me, Galimiy, feel free to do so through eve-mail. You're now just asking questions for the sake of it. I am assuming this whole matter to be as of much importance to the whole EVE-community and as a rank and file member of said community I feel it needs to be discussed in public. And this stops you publishing your logs, how? Won't get you as much attnetion? I reply to eve-mail, try using it, you won't get any further response from me here. I assume that RKK's directorship has nothing to hide from the public and thats why I assume the freedom to ask these question in public. Your lack of will to answer questions cast a shadow on your credibility. Again, I would like to know how did you gain such a level of trust with a dev as to be able to discuss undisclosed game mechanics? No it wont, your persistence will only be seen as witch hunting, and annoying. BoB is not on trial here, a DEV maybe, but your questions are irrelevant and the fact he wants his private convos and stuff left private is not casting a shadow on his credibility, especially since you wont read to find out he got them via public means on IRC.......... __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Bizarre TAOSP	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:13:00 - [439] To all those threatening to leave the game, please do. It would make this game a better place, without all you whiners who are to caught up in their own failures to accept the fact that some people are just better at things than others. --------------------

kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:15:00 - [440] Originally by: Mar vel I, for one, will be watching this with a lot of interest - and continued suspicion, regardless of the outcome. CCP, you've earned that disresepct because you openly lied about not having Devs in BoB. Openly lied? I do not remember ever making a statement saying "There are no Developers in Band of Brothers", Ascendant Frontier, Red Alliance, Star Fraction or any other alliance. To make this clear, there are Developers playing EVE in BoB, ASCN, RA, and many other alliances, corporations big and small. Devs play the entire range of the game, from mining in hi-sec to PvP, agent running to science and manufacturing. We have to, otherwise could not continue to develop the game. Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. Now that that's out of the way, the investigation proceeds. Do I have an approximate time frame of completion? No, many of these events happened some time ago. Will action be taken against anyone that has acted in an improper way? Yes, we have never claimed otherwise. Will a statement be made when the investigation is complete? Yes. Will disclosure be made? Yes, within the limits of privacy for those involved. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:17:00 - [441] Edited by: Baun on 31/01/2007 18:14:59 Originally by: Dianabolic If you require as a mandatory registration, such as we do in RKK, that to be in RKK you MUST join our forums, where does that leave the "profession" of espionage? Thats really part of the point of why I bring up the distinction between in and out of game resources. The community should stop taking things at face value and extending things supported by in game mechanics to areas of real property owned by others. One could argue that out of game resources are really just an extension of the game but that completely ignores the property rights associated with the domain names, bandwidth and personal information. People have very real rights in these areas whereas people have potentially no right to anything within the actual framework of the game. The implication of what you are saying is that if misrepresented use of out of game resources is not permitted (though the enforcement mechanism for this escapes me) then it can become effectively impossible to spy in game. One distinction you can draw is that the simple act of registering on the forums while misrepresentative would not involve appropriation of any information, appreciable bandwidth or personal information. Taking information from them is potentially a different matter. Indeed, however, the real point is that if playing the game ultimately requires using resources that someone else pays for and has property rights in, and if spying in the game requires use of those resources then spying may very well not be ok. In essence, requiring that people use out of game resources to be a part of something in game can be taken to be a guarnatee that they are willing to open themselves to the recourses available to people who have their property misappropriated. If people are not willing to make themselves open to recourses for misrepresenting themselves then they can and should remain in game only and only spy on those people that do not require real world security for their trust in them. Quote: I do reject the notion that hacking is in any way similar to normal, eve-based, espionage. The information that is retrieved is usually exactly the same or would be potentially exactly the same depending upon your degree of access (for example someone who hacked could just as easily get access to all of the hacked information by being promoted to "webmaster" of the corporation). The differences are that the means of hacking are generally more repugnant and that it requires far less art in social engineering your way into a position where you could have all the access you could get much more easily by hacking. Just because one is harder and may be more likely to be criminally rather than civilly punishable doesn't indicate that the two are not similiar. I am not of the position that we are to tolerate either or that if we had to choose to tolerate one it would be hacking. I simply wish for everyone to pull their heads out of the sand and realize that what we are already condone as a community has already crossed the line or has come dangerously close to so doing. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:17:00 - [442] Are the rules of conduct for developers or other CCP staff available to read somewhere?
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:18:00 - [443] Originally by: bulabuba Uhhh... yeah. My "rubbish" is based on about 20 years in the software development business. What is it that you're basing your "rubbish" on? In the couple of decades, I've designed, created, and maintained countless applications that I never used myself, but that served the needs of their users well. The techniques for doing this are well known to anyone fit to be called a software engineer. This is the same old crap from you, Rod, frankly. All bully and bluster, and just no damn substance at all. I don't open my mouth unless I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should consider doing the same. Hey, were devs aren't we, maybe I do ? In other news, any IT job =! MMO development. Deciding on Eve's future development isn't about code, it's about bring new functionality to a product, about enhancing the expeirence, because the experience is what you sell. For that you need to know the product, experience what is makes you feel like, not just the code that makes it work. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Jun Suzuki	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:23:00 - [444] snip Reference to inappropriate site removed. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:24:00 - [445] On another front, this thread is a representation of the reasons why I have previously posted that CCP's chief concern in this area is the perception of the public and not their own knowledge that nothing untoward is happening. The integrity of the product is undermined by the mere potentiality for the belief that the game developers are rigging the system in their own favor. While it is not irrelevant whether they are actually doing this, the danger to the company is people thinking that they are doing this. It should be obvious to everyone that CCP has nothing to gain from actually cheating in the game itself and it has everything to lose. Unfortunately, despite their obivous commitment in this area CCP has apparently failed to do enough to secure the confidence of at least some substantial fraction of the community. This should be an object lesson and should hopefully shape the way they think about this in the future. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:25:00 - [446] The way I see it, the damage is done already. It's got nothing to do with BoB in particular (could be any other alliance), nor does it even matter that there should be actual truth behind the allegations. What should matter to CCP is the what its current playerbase, as well as its potential customers, perceive as being the truth. In that regard, allowing CCP employees to play the game will, from now on, create suspicion, outrage, etc. - regardless of the actual truth. I understand that the original CCP team created a game that they first and foremost wanted to play themselves ; it's a noble ideal, and one that led to a great, successful game. Times have changed, however, and they're a victim of their own success: they have to treat their creation as what it has become - a business. Now they must decide whether they want to make a living with this game, or play it. Simple. Fate kills
Sigmorhair Gallente Eisenmetal	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:25:00 - [447] Edited by: Sigmorhair on 31/01/2007 18:22:14 Originally by: Bizarre To all those threatening to leave the game, please do. It would make this game a better place, without all you whiners who are to caught up in their own failures to accept the fact that some people are just better at things than others. You are probably going to get your wish. Though I doubt the results will be as you predict. I always wondered how Bob kept getting POS passwords and up to the minute fleet intel. I guess I know now.
Godolphin Caldari Black Omega Security Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:26:00 - [448] stick me ina dark room with the BOB CEO and DEV in question, ill get the truth within 15mins...simple...bob have never said there arnt devs in BOB, we no there r..just that it takes a hacker to reveil the truth of what bpb and MC get free...u seen selenne sucking devs dodgers at fanfest surely
jeNK Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:27:00 - [449] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Mar vel I, for one, will be watching this with a lot of interest - and continued suspicion, regardless of the outcome. CCP, you've earned that disresepct because you openly lied about not having Devs in BoB. Openly lied? I do not remember ever making a statement saying "There are no Developers in Band of Brothers", Ascendant Frontier, Red Alliance, Star Fraction or any other alliance. To make this clear, there are Developers playing EVE in BoB, ASCN, RA, and many other alliances, corporations big and small. Devs play the entire range of the game, from mining in hi-sec to PvP, agent running to science and manufacturing. We have to, otherwise could not continue to develop the game. Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. Now that that's out of the way, the investigation proceeds. Do I have an approximate time frame of completion? No, many of these events happened some time ago. Will action be taken against anyone that has acted in an improper way? Yes, we have never claimed otherwise. Will a statement be made when the investigation is complete? Yes. Will disclosure be made? Yes, within the limits of privacy for those involved. That's a lie! ASCN Has disbanded, ergo you do NOT have any dev's in ASCN! OMG DEVS LIED! buys shares in tinfoil industry kieron, I thank you and the rest of the team (both Dev and ISD) for putting up with this kind of muck. I also feel somewhat sympathetic for any developer that has been uncovered, who hasn't been involved in any foul play, as I remember t20 posting that he lost his account because of being rumbled.
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:27:00 - [450] Originally by: Rod Blaine In other news, any IT job =! MMO development. Deciding on Eve's future development isn't about code, it's about bring new functionality to a product, about enhancing the expeirence, because the experience is what you sell. For that you need to know the product, experience what is makes you feel like, not just the code that makes it work. Well. I guess if I didn't know that you didn't know before, you removed all doubt there. There isn't any application that is about the code. It's always about the user's experience. I've never worked in an insurance company call center where you have to juggle tons of information at high speed and handle people's questions and issues rapidly and accurately because you're measured on both and your job hinges on doing it well. I have, however, specified, designed, and lead a team that implemented and tested such a system, and evolved it based on user feedback once it went live. The user's experience, ease of use, logic of the navigation, etc. were far more important than they are in a game (lots of money and people's jobs are riding on it). I've participated in developing games too. It's different, but no more different than say a point of sale application is from a IDE (integrated development environment). I know what I'm talking about here Rod. There is no reason that devs have to play this game on the live server for the good of the game. Not doing so might require a little more discipline and technique on thier part, but it's absolutely not necessary, and given the potential for conflicts of interest (or even the appearance of conflicts of interest) it shouldn't be done. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:27:00 - [451] I have a confession to make. I once opened a door for a guy whos mother lives in iceland who's other son's daughter's boyfriend's father's friend knows a guy who works at CCP. For this reason I am forced to leave EVE, don't know when Ill be able to come back. \o
DeckardIRL Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:29:00 - [452] Tried to avoid posting to this thread and managed it all day but its now 16 pages of sh*te. There is no evidence that anyone in the leadership BoB has acted unscrupulously. There is a CCP investigation taking place into CCP employees and leave it at that- all this threatening to leave crap.... good grief... this is a bandwagon to slay BoB on the forums (I know this will be payback for some peeps) but really this thread has more than runs its course. CCP cannot and will not be seen to be anything but clean in this as they have in the past. Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:31:00 - [453] To be able to do a good job on a product, you should use the product yourself. All the little annoyances your users experience every day should be experience by the people developing the product, particulary such a complex piece of program eve is. FYI, I'm a dev on a program millions of people use daily, and many probably use it right now while reading this thread, so I have a vague idea of what I'm talking about. If you won't eat your own dog food, you will be seriously handicapped in improving it. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:31:00 - [454] "Are the rules of conduct for developers or other CCP staff available to read somewhere?" Nothing easily accessible that i can think of... there might've been something mentioned in the forum mods recruitment threads and such but not sure. Rules of conduct are likely part of internal policies/NDA signed by the employees rather than public knowledge.
Kaplanelle GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:31:00 - [455] Edited by: Kaplanelle on 31/01/2007 18:29:54 Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 31/01/2007 17:56:40 Originally by: bulabuba Think before spouting your rubbish ffs. We're talking at least a hundred CCP employee owned accounts active in Eve Online, most likely spread around every alliance, profession, region and security status out there. And thank god that's how it propbaly is because otherwise there'd be no reason to suppose CCP could ever make this game better then it is. <speaking as a customer, not on behalf of GS> Playing the game to improve QA, good. Abuse of power. Not good. Close yer eyes for a sec. ASCN is alive, and has taken half of period basis, won three PvP championships in a row and it was your titan was lost. Hard to imagine, but try--seriously. Now imagine these allegations happening with them. You'd be a deluded turdmountain if you say that wouldn't phase you. The choice of dev play is a policy failure, that can really only be changed by full disclosure or assurances of strict internal auditing. It's an human inevitability that anyone who influences game mechanics or has access to the DB will betray that trust. Worst part is we know we'll never know the full extent of these problems because it could be financially disasterous. You can have playtesters relay game playability issues/specs to devs. Really, businesswise it is indulgent and shyting where you eat to risk turning Eve into Dev SimAnt. It's the punishment you get for writing an otherwise awesome game.
Jelek Coro Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:32:00 - [456] Originally by: Turix Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Traxio Nacho Props to someone that breaks the law uses out of game methods to hack peoples forums snip Keep it polite -Eldo if you had proof then you should take it up with the proper authoroties instead of making baseless accusations you cannot prove. his story could be true you know. I believe BOB have proof and so do goonswarm? We do, but the laws involved (international) and time required (immense) basically mean nothing will get done. It would require a civil suit, as the police have fat better things to do than chase someone who has already been convicted of computer crimes, committing crimes against "gamers". /me shrugs. Even if they did chase him down, arest and charge him - most he'd get probably is a slap on the wrist and a fine. If this guy is in snip, then it won't even appear on the radar, heck at best there would be a slightly puzzled look about wtf you are talking about. Besides, 100,000 snip covers alot of things....having experience of snip traffic police and avoiding fines Anyway, why are so many BoB haters trying to conduct a witch hunt? So many jealous people who see conspiracies everywhere.... Personal information removed. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:32:00 - [457] Originally by: Razor Jaxx Now they must decide whether they want to make a living with this game, or play it. Simple. The answer to that is "shut it down". There is no reasonable way to run a system as complex as Eve without first hand experience of how its working. It's not reasonable to expect devs not to play their own game, and in fact devs not playing their own game leads to disasters like some of the Everquest grinds. I thought you were better than to fall for Something Awful propaganda. //Maya
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:35:00 - [458] Originally by: Maya Rkell I thought you were better than to fall for Something Awful propaganda. I am sick of this. There are 90,000 people who subscribe to Something Awful and as far as I know there is zero connection between that site and what happened here apart from one of the members who posted the stolen information being a member of that site. Something Awful and it's community has nothing to gain whatsoever from this, so please drop this utter horsecrap.
zoolkhan Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:38:00 - [459] ccp rox, ccp devs roxxor even more. leave them alone - let them do their work. yes, they have probably the coolest job in the world, but we should not blame them for that. U'K recruit! contact me ingame for free eve webshosting
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:38:00 - [460] Originally by: bulabuba I know what I'm talking about here Rod. There is no reason that devs have to play this game on the live server for the good of the game. I question if you really do. A administrative system is not the same as a game, a game is much more complex and cannot easily be done from A to Z from a specification like you can with a administrative system like the one you describe. It's also about passion. If you burn for something, you will do a better job on that. I've done systems like you described before but never had any passion. The last few years, I've working on something I burn for is in use by millions of people. Do you really think eve devs would do a better or equally good job if they didn't play the game? Seriously? A game they are passionate about? New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
bulabuba Gallente Klima Galactic	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:44:00 - [461] Originally by: kieron Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. Well, all I can say is that it's unfortunate that you think so. There is no question at all that it can be done. I can understand though why you wouldn't want to. Playing games is fun. At the end of the day it all comes down to a calculated business risk, I guess. You weigh the benefit of the devs continuing to play against the appearance of favoritism and what impact that has on your player base and the broader reputation of your game on the third party fan-sites like MMORPG et. al. Only you guys can decide how to run your own business. Good luck. ----------------------------------------------- Are GoonSwarm ever going to be allowed to build up in any way in 0.0 space again? No. -DB Preacher[BoB]
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:45:00 - [462] Originally by: Razor Jaxx The way I see it, the damage is done already. It's got nothing to do with BoB in particular (could be any other alliance), nor does it even matter that there should be actual truth behind the allegations. What should matter to CCP is the what its current playerbase, as well as its potential customers, perceive as being the truth. In that regard, allowing CCP employees to play the game will, from now on, create suspicion, outrage, etc. - regardless of the actual truth. I understand that the original CCP team created a game that they first and foremost wanted to play themselves ; it's a noble ideal, and one that led to a great, successful game. Times have changed, however, and they're a victim of their own success: they have to treat their creation as what it has become - a business. Now they must decide whether they want to make a living with this game, or play it. Simple. Please read Kierons post. I personally agree with the people who argue that devs should be allowed to play the game. And to go further, I agree with Kieron that this is a neccessity even. One of the great things about CCP is the devs love for the game. And the way they interact with the community. I have much respect for CCP and in my opinion they are the best gaming company out there. This thread is not pleasent for them, yet they allow this discussion to happen. This shows they care about the game, and about fairness. I hope the enjoyment the devs get from playing in EVE is not negatively influenced too much by this thread. So again, to avoid any confusion: I respect the guys at CCP. This respect stands, and I am sure CCP will do the right thing. Now to my criticism: Gaining an unfair advantage from having a dev in corp or allaince is a bad. This includes but is not limited to giving out information. No adavantage besides the playing skill of the dev should be gained. Also dev chars with t2 bpos or dev chars giving t2 bpos to any corp or alliance is a nono in my personal opinion as I have stated before, including reasoning, in this thread. In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Bastogne Caldari Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:48:00 - [463] Edited by: Bastogne on 31/01/2007 18:45:00 Originally by: kieron Originally by: Mar vel I, for one, will be watching this with a lot of interest - and continued suspicion, regardless of the outcome. CCP, you've earned that disresepct because you openly lied about not having Devs in BoB. Openly lied? I do not remember ever making a statement saying "There are no Developers in Band of Brothers", Ascendant Frontier, Red Alliance, Star Fraction or any other alliance. To make this clear, there are Developers playing EVE in BoB, ASCN, RA, and many other alliances, corporations big and small. Devs play the entire range of the game, from mining in hi-sec to PvP, agent running to science and manufacturing. We have to, otherwise could not continue to develop the game. Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. Now that that's out of the way, the investigation proceeds. Do I have an approximate time frame of completion? No, many of these events happened some time ago. Will action be taken against anyone that has acted in an improper way? Yes, we have never claimed otherwise. Will a statement be made when the investigation is complete? Yes. Will disclosure be made? Yes, within the limits of privacy for those involved. Thank you for keeping this open, and sorry for all of the smear that you folk have to endure on a regular basis around here.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:50:00 - [464] Im back! turns out it was an automatic door, and it only opened because the guy stepped on the black mat thingy in front of it! im off the hook yay.
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:50:00 - [465] Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 31/01/2007 18:49:50 Originally by: bulabuba Originally by: kieron Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. Well, all I can say is that it's unfortunate that you think so. There is no question at all that it can be done. I can understand though why you wouldn't want to. Playing games is fun. At the end of the day it all comes down to a calculated business risk, I guess. You weigh the benefit of the devs continuing to play against the appearance of favoritism and what impact that has on your player base and the broader reputation of your game on the third party fan-sites like MMORPG et. al. Only you guys can decide how to run your own business. Good luck. Dev/GMs playing Eve make the game better they understand the problems the average player has. Dev/GMs not playing Eve means you have alot of clueless people not knowing whats going on. You think Eve is the only online game that has dev/gms playing it? Think of WoW I bet theres hundreds of GMs playing that. PS: Kerion you don't need to explain yourself to some of these people no matter what you say they won't believe you, they are the sort of people you could tell them its raining when it is and they will still argue it isn't.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:53:00 - [466] Having met many of the devs while I was working on EVETV, I can safely say that the game is in good hands. No group of people could be more passionate about the product they create. Its really that simple. -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 18:57:00 - [467] Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 18:53:34 Originally by: kieron Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. If that is CCP's attitude, then the community should just get used to this kind of thing happening over and over again. The real problem is the lack of transparency. Stock brokers, for example, can buy and trade stock but they need to publicly disclose those sales to prevent insider trading. In EvE there is no public disclosure, we just have to take it on CCP's word that our benevolent overlords are not stacking the deck against Joe player. I'm sorry, but I do not trust our benevolent overlords. It is human nature to seek advantage, especially in hard-core corps/clans like BoB where there is a pretty strict minimum online requirement to remain active (I imagine). There needs to be strict and open control mechanisms to insure this doesn't happen. Devs need to tell us: 1. What the rules are for Dev accounts. - Can they own T2 BPO's? - Can they be fleet commanders in large alliances? - Are they allowed to have multiple accounts? - Do they participate in any espionage? 2. How are Dev accounts monitored to insure they are not gaining unfair advantage? 3. How are Dev accounts punished if malfeasance is discovered? Are players re-imbursed for losses against Dev accounts? 4. How are suspicious incidents handled? Eg. A few weeks before cargo container blueprints are upgraded an alt account mysteriously decides try to buy as many of those blueprints as possible. You may need to play the game to develop it, but you need to provide a mechanism so that the community feels there is proper oversight. You may think this is silly, but this is the kind of thing that makes it into the gaming press, and even the real-world press if it gets bad enough. Regardless of the mechanism of how this information was discovered, it is out there now and CCP has to deal with it.
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:00:00 - [468] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Razor Jaxx Now they must decide whether they want to make a living with this game, or play it. Simple. The answer to that is "shut it down". There is no reasonable way to run a system as complex as Eve without first hand experience of how its working. It's not reasonable to expect devs not to play their own game, and in fact devs not playing their own game leads to disasters like some of the Everquest grinds. I thought you were better than to fall for Something Awful propaganda. I haven't fallen for anything Maya. Like I said, the truth beneath the allegations have no bearing whatsoever in the present case, so why should I bother paying attention to that? Kieron's post and the wildfire propagation in this very thread is all I need to make my point. As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it? In all honesty, I couldn't care less, personally, that the Devs, and CCP employees in general, continue playing EvE. I've been around for almost 3 years now, I'm a relatively insignificant persona in-game, so I'm not very likely to suffer or benefit from Devs actions, should they actually happen. All I'm saying is, CCP should worry about the general public perception ; I don't think people will happily spend $15 (or more) a month if they feel the playing field is skewed. That's really what it's all about. Fate kills
PDoggy	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:02:00 - [469] snip Such EULA violations are not meant to be discussed here. Email us instead -Eldo Davip([email protected])
katz3 Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:03:00 - [470] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 18:53:34 Originally by: kieron Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. If that is CCP's attitude, then the community should just get used to this kind of thing happening over and over again. The real problem is the lack of transparency. Stock brokers, for example, can buy and trade stock but they need to publicly disclose those sales to prevent insider trading. In EvE there is no public disclosure, we just have to take it on CCP's word that our benevolent overlords are not stacking the deck against Joe player. I'm sorry, but I do not trust our benevolent overlords. It is human nature to seek advantage, especially in hard-core corps/clans like BoB where there is a pretty strict minimum online requirement to remain active (I imagine). There needs to be strict and open control mechanisms to insure this doesn't happen. Devs need to tell us: 1. What the rules are for Dev accounts. - Can they own T2 BPO's? - Can they be fleet commanders in large alliances? - Are they allowed to have multiple accounts? - Do they participate in any espionage? 2. How are Dev accounts monitored to insure they are not gaining unfair advantage? 3. How are Dev accounts punished if malfeasance is discovered? Are players re-imbursed for losses against Dev accounts? 4. How are suspicious incidents handled? Eg. A few weeks before cargo container blueprints are upgraded an alt account mysteriously decides try to buy as many of those blueprints as possible. You may need to play the game to develop it, but you need to provide a mechanism so that the community feels there is proper oversight. You may think this is silly, but this is the kind of thing that makes it into the gaming press, and even the real-world press if it gets bad enough. Regardless of the mechanism of how this information was discovered, it is out there now and CCP has to deal with it. /signed ___________________ Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
Aelena Thraant Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:04:00 - [471] We once had Sharkbait join our corp and look at our arrays that were not working.... So we knew they would be fixed soon.... Does that make us a haxor lol. This is just some crazy BS. I hope this causes CCP to do some policy changes or game changes that makes crap like this go away. And to the people that don't think CCP should play this game... Your just fooling yourself. If you want a crappy game then fine... Lets make eve turn into SWG so we can all quit the game. If you don't like the fact that GMs/Devs/etc are playing and are in the major alliances then just cancel your account. (Can I have your stuff?) Just think what this game would be like if a Dev never setup a pos or never fought a pos defence, etc... I see this taking a week or two to clear up tbh but I really feel sorry for everyone that has had their forums hacked. It's really a sad state of affairs for eve imo. I think that ccp should give away the new voice coms and open up a new set of forums that use your ccp account info so that we can prevent this crap. Maybe with a flat corp/alliance fee to host them.
thoradh AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:09:00 - [472] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 18:53:34 Originally by: kieron Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. If that is CCP's attitude, then the community should just get used to this kind of thing happening over and over again. The real problem is the lack of transparency. Stock brokers, for example, can buy and trade stock but they need to publicly disclose those sales to prevent insider trading. In EvE there is no public disclosure, we just have to take it on CCP's word that our benevolent overlords are not stacking the deck against Joe player. I'm sorry, but I do not trust our benevolent overlords. It is human nature to seek advantage, especially in hard-core corps/clans like BoB where there is a pretty strict minimum online requirement to remain active (I imagine). There needs to be strict and open control mechanisms to insure this doesn't happen. Devs need to tell us: 1. What the rules are for Dev accounts. - Can they own T2 BPO's? - Can they be fleet commanders in large alliances? - Are they allowed to have multiple accounts? - Do they participate in any espionage? 2. How are Dev accounts monitored to insure they are not gaining unfair advantage? 3. How are Dev accounts punished if malfeasance is discovered? Are players re-imbursed for losses against Dev accounts? 4. How are suspicious incidents handled? Eg. A few weeks before cargo container blueprints are upgraded an alt account mysteriously decides try to buy as many of those blueprints as possible. You may need to play the game to develop it, but you need to provide a mechanism so that the community feels there is proper oversight. You may think this is silly, but this is the kind of thing that makes it into the gaming press, and even the real-world press if it gets bad enough. Regardless of the mechanism of how this information was discovered, it is out there now and CCP has to deal with it. /signed This is the MINIMUM you should expect. > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! >
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:16:00 - [473] "As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" There's many things on TQ that are not present on SiSi -- people running from fights rather than staying (meaning entirely different ship setups) ctrl-q, login traps, blobs, gatecamps, low sec pirates roaming in motherships, dock/undock games, and all sorts to different ****. Then there's mass-scale fights, people grinding through both NPCs and mining resourses, heavy stress on the contract system, extensive nets of actively maintained, attacked and defended POSes etc... in short, if you lock the devs up to SiSi and make them only rely on second hand hearsay and their dev powers so they can spawn themselves test cases and such... you're likely to render them oblivious to large part of what this game is like and what people routinely complain about. And lack of experience makes it quite harder to address actual gameplay issues in reasonable manner :\|
Imode Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:21:00 - [474] I must say, this thread really saddens me. CCP should nt have to endure this kind of crap from the playerbase day in and day out. On one hand people slam guys like Tuxford and Sharkbait for their changes in game, accusing them of not even playing the game they're developing. On the other hand, once people catch wind of a possible CCP staffer in an opposing alliance or corporation then it turns into a witchhunt decrying the active participation of CCP employees in in-game politics. Really, a guy living in Iceland who loves a game that just so happens to be made by a company in Iceland that just so happens to make up a huge portion of said country's economy. What are the chances? Is Shin Ra a Dev? Is Verizana a GM? Where will these endless allegations stop? Are you going to force the entire populace of Iceland to stop playing EVE just beacuse at some point in time, they may or may not be employed at CCP or maybe served Oveur lunch one day? If the allegations are true, and it is possible, then consider it the work of a single unscrupulous individual. What if one day, you found out that YOUR fellow alliancemate who just so happened to be a director or a T2 BPO holder was a DEV. Would you be so quick to out him as well? Dev's in BOB-- consider it a challenge. Perhaps CCP employees join BOB in order to challenge the rest of the EVE populace. Step up. Try to beat them at their own game, literally. Stop trying to choose the easy way out.
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:21:00 - [475] Originally by: Reiisha People are idiots. 1 3) Why the hell are people defending "proof" that's provided by a hacker that is just trying to annoy people? I ask again, are you all idiots? 4) Why the hell is it that BoB gets all this over them? I'll tell you why. People are jealous, and sore losers. They make up excuses for losing. They don't want to hear that it's their own bloody fault. People want an excuse of why they aren't as good as BoB, and they don't want to hear that they're simply not that good. I'll just answer the question i asked 2 times before: They are idiots. They want to ruin the game for everyone just because they can't take it that they lost to people who were simply better than them. In the WCG, people shake hands after a match. In EVE, they start accusing each other of cheating. How is this not a f****d up situation? It's just hilarious to see people who know absolutely nothing about anything relating to this coming in and speaking like they know everything. Again, they are idiots, and i really hope they don't start attacking me for saying this, but realizing what the hell they're doing and start to stop behaving like this. What the hell am i typing this, for, people will either ignore this post or just flame me for being BoB. Yeah, they're idiots. Oh i do remember CDI , why did they get all this shiat over them by you folks ? Why did you thrive member of them out of game byusing the lowest of low ? Serious you cant expect going on liek this and dont recieve anything back .. ofc hacking if thats the case i dont wish upon any1 but dont be such "victims" _____________ Im back !
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:22:00 - [476] Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:25:00 - [477] Originally by: Amiable Quinn If that is CCP's attitude, then the community should just get used to this kind of thing happening over and over again. The real problem is the lack of transparency. Stock brokers, for example, can buy and trade stock but they need to publicly disclose those sales to prevent insider trading. In EvE there is no public disclosure, we just have to take it on CCP's word that our benevolent overlords are not stacking the deck against Joe player. I'm sorry, but I do not trust our benevolent overlords. It is human nature to seek advantage, especially in hard-core corps/clans like BoB where there is a pretty strict minimum online requirement to remain active (I imagine). There needs to be strict and open control mechanisms to insure this doesn't happen. Devs need to tell us: 1. What the rules are for Dev accounts. - Can they own T2 BPO's? - Can they be fleet commanders in large alliances? - Are they allowed to have multiple accounts? - Do they participate in any espionage? 2. How are Dev accounts monitored to insure they are not gaining unfair advantage? 3. How are Dev accounts punished if malfeasance is discovered? Are players re-imbursed for losses against Dev accounts? 4. How are suspicious incidents handled? Eg. A few weeks before cargo container blueprints are upgraded an alt account mysteriously decides try to buy as many of those blueprints as possible. You may need to play the game to develop it, but you need to provide a mechanism so that the community feels there is proper oversight. You may think this is silly, but this is the kind of thing that makes it into the gaming press, and even the real-world press if it gets bad enough. Regardless of the mechanism of how this information was discovered, it is out there now and CCP has to deal with it. Fully agree with this post except for one point: there is absolutely no need for devs to play the game as part of 0.0 Alliances. Can Kieron guarantee completely, and without obfuscation, that no dev or GM has ever used their knowledge of bugs, code, development, or node status to benefit their corp or Alliance in any way? Can Kieron guarantee completely, and without obfuscation, that a no dev or GM has ever used their knowledge of POS code, sovereignty bugs, upcoming changes to Tranquility, and node stability status to benefit their corp or Alliance in a PvP conflict? If the answer to either is no, then devs should have no part in competitive play. Real world example: A Dev or GM can, entirely innocently, report on TS exactly when a node drops during a fleet battle, allowing the members of their own Alliance a 10-30 second headstart in logging back in at the front of the queue for when the node comes back up. Try investigating that.
Frygok Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:25:00 - [478] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 18:53:34 Originally by: kieron Anyone saying the team should not be playing the game is mistaken. It is simply not possible to develop EVE without participating in all aspects of the game, something that cannot be done on Singularity or an internal server. If that is CCP's attitude, then the community should just get used to this kind of thing happening over and over again. The real problem is the lack of transparency. Stock brokers, for example, can buy and trade stock but they need to publicly disclose those sales to prevent insider trading. In EvE there is no public disclosure, we just have to take it on CCP's word that our benevolent overlords are not stacking the deck against Joe player. I'm sorry, but I do not trust our benevolent overlords. It is human nature to seek advantage, especially in hard-core corps/clans like BoB where there is a pretty strict minimum online requirement to remain active (I imagine). There needs to be strict and open control mechanisms to insure this doesn't happen. Devs need to tell us: 1. What the rules are for Dev accounts. - Can they own T2 BPO's? - Can they be fleet commanders in large alliances? - Are they allowed to have multiple accounts? - Do they participate in any espionage? 2. How are Dev accounts monitored to insure they are not gaining unfair advantage? 3. How are Dev accounts punished if malfeasance is discovered? Are players re-imbursed for losses against Dev accounts? 4. How are suspicious incidents handled? Eg. A few weeks before cargo container blueprints are upgraded an alt account mysteriously decides try to buy as many of those blueprints as possible. You may need to play the game to develop it, but you need to provide a mechanism so that the community feels there is proper oversight. You may think this is silly, but this is the kind of thing that makes it into the gaming press, and even the real-world press if it gets bad enough. Regardless of the mechanism of how this information was discovered, it is out there now and CCP has to deal with it. Very well written! It is crucial to have delevopers playing the game, and being in touch with how the players perceive the game. I would dread if the communication and evolvement of this game would start to be like WoW. However, they are only human, and can be prones to have certain sympathies towards the entities they are hanging out with. A clear ruleset would be very good. This also shows that this is not about BoB. It is about devs and how they sort between being a dev, and being a player. That some people use this as an excuse to get back at an alliance that promote themselves quite a lot on these forums is sad. Frygok - THIS IS MY MAIN!
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:28:00 - [479] Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 19:26:36 Originally by: j0sephine "As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" There's many things on TQ that are not present on SiSi -- people running from fights rather than staying (meaning entirely different ship setups) ctrl-q, login traps, blobs, gatecamps, low sec pirates roaming in motherships, dock/undock games, and all sorts to different **. Then there's mass-scale fights, people grinding through both NPCs and mining resourses, heavy stress on the contract system, extensive nets of actively maintained, attacked and defended POSes etc... in short, if you lock the devs up to SiSi and make them only rely on second hand hearsay and their dev powers so they can spawn themselves test cases and such... you're likely to render them oblivious to large part of what this game is like and what people routinely complain about. And lack of experience makes it quite harder to address actual gameplay issues in reasonable manner :\| Note the important part of the post you are replying to: "Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" That is the real question. Do they need to be running logisitics for one of the largest alliances in the game? Is that appropriate? If they do, why isn't this disclosed? Quite frankly, I think it is smarter from a business perspective to just cut this off at the roots and say no devs may have accounts. But I understand that the Dev's may be very passionate about the game they created and feel they need to be involved in order to ensure quality. (By the way, all of the things you mentioned are quite easy to understand even if you do not play the game on the Tranquility server). Barring the removal of Dev accounts there needs to be some form of transparency and accountability, so that the general community can feel confident that people aren't abusing their position as Dev's to gain unfair advantage. If they are THAT passionate about the game I imagine the temptation to use(abuse) their position may be overwhelming sometimes. I know some of you are going to respond: "Why would a dev risk their job over a video game?" To be honest I do not know, but I do know people do stupid things in the workplace ALL THE TIME. Things like: Look at **ography on their compnay computer. Have relations with their boss/employee. Drink at work. Why would anyone do any of those things, knowing full well what could happen to them if they get caught? I will tell you why: because they don't expect to get caught and folks WILL do what they think they can get away with. Transparency. Now.
Entity X-Factor Industries	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:32:00 - [480] Originally by: Random Whiner OMG DEVS H4X! THEY SHOULDNT PLAY THE GAME! Originally by: Probably the same Random Whiner OMG This bug is F*cking retarded! How could they NOT notice this bug! Dont they play the damn game?! Got item?
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:33:00 - [481] Edited by: Popsikle on 31/01/2007 19:32:01 Originally by: Amiable Quinn Note the important part of the post you are replying to: "Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" That is the real question. Do they need to be running logisitics for one of the largest alliances in the game? Is that appropriate? If they do, why isn't this disclosed? Quite frankly, I think it is smarter from a business perspective to just cut this off at the roots and say no devs may have accounts. But I understand that the Dev's may be very passionate about the game they created and feel they need to be involved in order to ensure quality. (By the way, all of the things you mentioned are quite easy to understand even if you do not play the game on the Tranquility server). Barring the removal of Dev accounts there needs to be some form of transparency and accountability, so that the general community can feel confident that people aren't abusing their position as Dev's to gain unfair advantage. If they are THAT passionate about the game I imagine the temptation to use(abuse) their position may be overwhelming sometimes. I know some of you are going to respond: "Why would a dev risk their job over a video game?" To be honest I do not know, but I do know people do stupid things in the workplace ALL THE TIME. Things like: Look at ****ography on their compnay computer. Have relations with their boss/employee. Drink at work. Why would anyone do any of those things, knowing full well what could happen to them if they get caught? I will tell you why: because they don't expect to get caught and folks WILL do what they think they can get away with. Transparency. Now. Devs need to be in all parts of the game, everywhere, to know what the players are doing. Its that simple, and if a dev does risk his/her job for an online game, its up to CCP to do the right thing, and get rid of that dev, and try and fix any in-game damage/advantage done by that dev. Other then that, there really is nothing more you can ask for IMO. EDIT: Im sure there is a way to monitor what dev accounts do, and what devs change, in fact im almost 100% positive EVERYTHING is recorded and logged, so it can be back-traced and checked up on. People will have thier suspicions, its part of being a person, but mature people wont whine/complain and slander/smack people that aren't involved; unlike 95% of the posters in this thread. Its a sad day in eve when the maturity level drops to one of WoW kiddies. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:34:00 - [482] Originally by: Entity Originally by: Random Whiner OMG DEVS H4X! THEY SHOULDNT PLAY THE GAME! Originally by: Probably the same Random Whiner OMG This bug is F*cking retarded! How could they NOT notice this bug! Dont they play the damn game?! Please refrain from making post that makes sence. Devs h4x sploit + ruin game.They don't need to play it to work on it! --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
thoradh AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:35:00 - [483] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Barring the removal of Dev accounts there needs to be some form of transparency and accountability, so that the general community can feel confident that people aren't abusing their position as Dev's to gain unfair advantage. If they are THAT passionate about the game I imagine the temptation to use(abuse) their position may be overwhelming sometimes. I know some of you are going to respond: "Why would a dev risk their job over a video game?" To be honest I do not know, but I do know people do stupid things in the workplace ALL THE TIME. Things like: Look at ****ography on their compnay computer. Have relations with their boss/employee. Drink at work. Why would anyone do any of those things, knowing full well what could happen to them if they get caught? I will tell you why: because they don't expect to get caught and folks WILL do what they think they can get away with. Transparency. Now. Again /signed. Absolutely spot on, thank you. > > Noli illegitimi carborundum! >
Tarantella Serpantine Clarf Inc	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:35:00 - [484] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 19:26:36 Originally by: j0sephine "As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" There's many things on TQ that are not present on SiSi -- people running from fights rather than staying (meaning entirely different ship setups) ctrl-q, login traps, blobs, gatecamps, low sec pirates roaming in motherships, dock/undock games, and all sorts to different **. Then there's mass-scale fights, people grinding through both NPCs and mining resourses, heavy stress on the contract system, extensive nets of actively maintained, attacked and defended POSes etc... in short, if you lock the devs up to SiSi and make them only rely on second hand hearsay and their dev powers so they can spawn themselves test cases and such... you're likely to render them oblivious to large part of what this game is like and what people routinely complain about. And lack of experience makes it quite harder to address actual gameplay issues in reasonable manner :\| Note the important part of the post you are replying to: "Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" That is the real question. Do they need to be running logisitics for one of the largest alliances in the game? Is that appropriate? If they do, why isn't this disclosed? Quite frankly, I think it is smarter from a business perspective to just cut this off at the roots and say no devs may have accounts. But I understand that the Dev's may be very passionate about the game they created and feel they need to be involved in order to ensure quality. (By the way, all of the things you mentioned are quite easy to understand even if you do not play the game on the Tranquility server). Barring the removal of Dev accounts there needs to be some form of transparency and accountability, so that the general community can feel confident that people aren't abusing their position as Dev's to gain unfair advantage. If they are THAT passionate about the game I imagine the temptation to use(abuse) their position may be overwhelming sometimes. I know some of you are going to respond: "Why would a dev risk their job over a video game?" To be honest I do not know, but I do know people do stupid things in the workplace ALL THE TIME. Things like: Look at **ography on their compnay computer. Have relations with their boss/employee. Drink at work. Why would anyone do any of those things, knowing full well what could happen to them if they get caught? I will tell you why: because they don't expect to get caught and folks WILL do what they think they can get away with. Transparency. Now. I don't feel confident that the light in the fridge goes off when i close the door. I mean sure making the door transparent would ruin the fridge, but i can't help but feeling IMMENSELY PARANOID about that light, even though there is no proof that it stays on. -- Love is the Law, Love under Will
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:36:00 - [485] "Real world example: A Dev or GM can, entirely innocently, report on TS exactly when a node drops during a fleet battle, allowing the members of their own Alliance a 10-30 second headstart in logging back in at the front of the queue for when the node comes back up. Try investigating that." You are making a very specific claim about Devs and/or GMs posessing certain abilities, here. The only way for you to know as fact they do posess such ability is either you are dev/GM yourself with access to such tools, or you were told this by one (and so were granted the very same thing you complain about, exclusive knowledge about game mechanics) Alternatively, you could be completely making things up based on nothing but ignorance and/or fear of the unknown, and trying to pass them as facts to scare people who, not being devs, wouldn't know any better. So which is it? o.(
Saint Juniper The Black Seal	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:37:00 - [486] Congratulations to all who used CAOD as another war weapon. I hope this whole fiasco turns CCP attention to suck-it-up moderation. If anything has proven true in the history of mmorpgs is that unpaid moderators picked amongst the playerbase brings trouble.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:38:00 - [487] Originally by: Razor Jaxx The way I see it, the damage is done already. It's got nothing to do with BoB in particular (could be any other alliance), nor does it even matter that there should be actual truth behind the allegations. What should matter to CCP is the what its current playerbase, as well as its potential customers, perceive as being the truth. In that regard, allowing CCP employees to play the game will, from now on, create suspicion, outrage, etc. - regardless of the actual truth. I understand that the original CCP team created a game that they first and foremost wanted to play themselves ; it's a noble ideal, and one that led to a great, successful game. Times have changed, however, and they're a victim of their own success: they have to treat their creation as what it has become - a business. Now they must decide whether they want to make a living with this game, or play it. Simple. Hah, stop the drama please. Barely 150 characters have probably posted in this thread, you know why? Because the other 25.000 people that read this thread trust in CCP. The only people you see posting here are the queens of drama, the pubes and the regular 'i have a ufo in my backyard' crowd. Some posters probably have some trust issues in real life and some people just like to cause drama for fun. It's not that bad, so don't make it out to be like that.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:54:00 - [488] Originally by: Mitchman Originally by: Sinlare The only people you see posting here are the queens of drama, the pubes and the regular 'i have a ufo in my backyard' crowd. Some posters probably have some trust issues in real life and some people just like to cause drama for fun. It's not that bad, so don't make it out to be like that. Which one is you? I'd be a queen of drama but it was more aimed at the people who are obvious suffering from some irl issues pertaining to trust/paranoia, the people that are easily spooked by the unknown.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:54:00 - [489] Originally by: Mitchman Originally by: Sinlare The only people you see posting here are the queens of drama, the pubes and the regular 'i have a ufo in my backyard' crowd. Some posters probably have some trust issues in real life and some people just like to cause drama for fun. It's not that bad, so don't make it out to be like that. Which one is you? I'd be a queen of drama but it was more aimed at the people who are obvious suffering from some irl issues pertaining to trust/paranoia, the people that are easily spooked by the unknown.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:56:00 - [490] A++++++++++ thread keep the flames going finally something intersting on caod that doesn't get locked after 2 seconds and i look forward to kieron's post GIVE ME BACK MY EXCLAMATION MARK PORTRAIT :( :( :( :( :( :(
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:56:00 - [491] A++++++++++ thread keep the flames going finally something intersting on caod that doesn't get locked after 2 seconds and i look forward to kieron's post GIVE ME BACK MY EXCLAMATION MARK PORTRAIT :( :( :( :( :( :(
Vensa Heckler ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:57:00 - [492] Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. i could allege that ccp is actually a terrorist organisation, and make a 3rd party forum with some quotes on that don't point towards anything in particular other than that perhaps 1 or 2 members of ccp can remember the dictionary definition of terrorist off by heart. it wouldn't prove anything, and it wouldn't be a reason for anyone to cut of their heads and run around screaming "THE SKY IS FALLING" - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Vensa Heckler ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:57:00 - [493] Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. i could allege that ccp is actually a terrorist organisation, and make a 3rd party forum with some quotes on that don't point towards anything in particular other than that perhaps 1 or 2 members of ccp can remember the dictionary definition of terrorist off by heart. it wouldn't prove anything, and it wouldn't be a reason for anyone to cut of their heads and run around screaming "THE SKY IS FALLING" - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Shizuko Caldari E X O D U S	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:58:00 - [494] Originally by: Reiisha People only believe that BoB lies and hacks because the people who went to war with them lost. It's that simple. BoB doesn't lie. Who the **** are you kidding?
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:58:00 - [495] Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 19:56:46 Originally by: j0sephine How do you expect them to become familiar with the practices, annoyances and bugs affecting everyday life of such 'person in position of importance' otherwise? You know, the things that no one really bug reports because they are not technically bugs, but rather results of UI layout, glitches, lags, lazy people screwing up their corporation duties and such. There are plenty of MMORPG's out there with much larger player bases than EvE where developers are barred from playing on live servers. You don't have to experience a bug to find out about it. I am not saying there is NO value to having a dev playing, I am just saying that a dev being part of 0.0 alliance brings up a LOT of conflict of interest issues, to the point where the advantages of a dev playing are outweighed by the disadvantages. Originally by: j0sephine There's nothing really wrong with devs doing these things. I realize people are using the argument how "they would be tempted to support 'their' side" but think of it... it's the game itself that's the devs' "side". This is what they have passion for first and foremost, what they are trying to improve and develop. Why do you think they would want to ruin the very thing they care about, by messing it up for benefit of one virtual faction or another? Maybe think out of the tight box of alliance loyalty for once, for a change... and consider the bigger picture :/ I am trying to see the big picture. I understand that you have a very high opinion of the devs and a very high opinion of human nature in general. Sadly, I do not share your optimism. Who is right here? I do not know, maybe all of the devs are selfless Pollyanna's whose every in-game task is designed solely to improve game preformance rather than their enjoyment or self-aggrandizement. But then again maybe not. It seems regardless of what I believe the Devs will continue to play the game on live servers, fair enough, it is their game. What I am saying is if you ARE going to do that you need to have strict controls and communicate what those controls are to the community (see post above where I list what those controls should be). Devs want to play? Fine, then it is their responsibility to explain how they are doing that without unfairly taking advantage of game mechanics. But the situation as it exists now (devs playing + total secrecy) is a recipe for trouble. Ultimately this issue will be decided by folks pocketbooks. If I feel that I can't accomplish anything in this game because if I do some Dev-corp is going to run right over them using informaiton they are not privy to they WILL leave. I know many folks get on this board and threaten to leave over a host of issues, but this is one that has sunk other games.
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:58:00 - [496] Originally by: j0sephine "As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" There's many things on TQ that are not present on SiSi -- people running from fights rather than staying (meaning entirely different ship setups) ctrl-q, login traps, blobs, gatecamps, low sec pirates roaming in motherships, dock/undock games, and all sorts to different ****. Then there's mass-scale fights, people grinding through both NPCs and mining resourses, heavy stress on the contract system, extensive nets of actively maintained, attacked and defended POSes etc... in short, if you lock the devs up to SiSi and make them only rely on second hand hearsay and their dev powers so they can spawn themselves test cases and such... you're likely to render them oblivious to large part of what this game is like and what people routinely complain about. And lack of experience makes it quite harder to address actual gameplay issues in reasonable manner :\| You make a lot of sense as usual, j0, but that isn't the underlying issue. The issue is, does employee involvement on TQ justify the deficit of trust suffered by CCP because of ongoing speculation? In other words, what's better for CCP - seeing customer confidence degrade because of speculation over CCP employees playing on TQ? Or adapting to stop all speculation by relying on alternate solutions to keep improving the game - players' feedback, more SiSi stress-testing, etc. Like I said before, I personally have no qualm with CCP employees playing on TQ, I'm merely probing out for possible solutions to the problem on hand. It's their decision to make, obviously, and good luck to them in picking the lesser of two evils. Fate kills
Shizuko Caldari E X O D U S	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:58:00 - [497] Originally by: Reiisha People only believe that BoB lies and hacks because the people who went to war with them lost. It's that simple. BoB doesn't lie. Who the **** are you kidding?
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:58:00 - [498] Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 31/01/2007 19:56:46 Originally by: j0sephine How do you expect them to become familiar with the practices, annoyances and bugs affecting everyday life of such 'person in position of importance' otherwise? You know, the things that no one really bug reports because they are not technically bugs, but rather results of UI layout, glitches, lags, lazy people screwing up their corporation duties and such. There are plenty of MMORPG's out there with much larger player bases than EvE where developers are barred from playing on live servers. You don't have to experience a bug to find out about it. I am not saying there is NO value to having a dev playing, I am just saying that a dev being part of 0.0 alliance brings up a LOT of conflict of interest issues, to the point where the advantages of a dev playing are outweighed by the disadvantages. Originally by: j0sephine There's nothing really wrong with devs doing these things. I realize people are using the argument how "they would be tempted to support 'their' side" but think of it... it's the game itself that's the devs' "side". This is what they have passion for first and foremost, what they are trying to improve and develop. Why do you think they would want to ruin the very thing they care about, by messing it up for benefit of one virtual faction or another? Maybe think out of the tight box of alliance loyalty for once, for a change... and consider the bigger picture :/ I am trying to see the big picture. I understand that you have a very high opinion of the devs and a very high opinion of human nature in general. Sadly, I do not share your optimism. Who is right here? I do not know, maybe all of the devs are selfless Pollyanna's whose every in-game task is designed solely to improve game preformance rather than their enjoyment or self-aggrandizement. But then again maybe not. It seems regardless of what I believe the Devs will continue to play the game on live servers, fair enough, it is their game. What I am saying is if you ARE going to do that you need to have strict controls and communicate what those controls are to the community (see post above where I list what those controls should be). Devs want to play? Fine, then it is their responsibility to explain how they are doing that without unfairly taking advantage of game mechanics. But the situation as it exists now (devs playing + total secrecy) is a recipe for trouble. Ultimately this issue will be decided by folks pocketbooks. If I feel that I can't accomplish anything in this game because if I do some Dev-corp is going to run right over them using informaiton they are not privy to they WILL leave. I know many folks get on this board and threaten to leave over a host of issues, but this is one that has sunk other games.
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 19:58:00 - [499] Originally by: j0sephine "As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?" There's many things on TQ that are not present on SiSi -- people running from fights rather than staying (meaning entirely different ship setups) ctrl-q, login traps, blobs, gatecamps, low sec pirates roaming in motherships, dock/undock games, and all sorts to different ****. Then there's mass-scale fights, people grinding through both NPCs and mining resourses, heavy stress on the contract system, extensive nets of actively maintained, attacked and defended POSes etc... in short, if you lock the devs up to SiSi and make them only rely on second hand hearsay and their dev powers so they can spawn themselves test cases and such... you're likely to render them oblivious to large part of what this game is like and what people routinely complain about. And lack of experience makes it quite harder to address actual gameplay issues in reasonable manner :\| You make a lot of sense as usual, j0, but that isn't the underlying issue. The issue is, does employee involvement on TQ justify the deficit of trust suffered by CCP because of ongoing speculation? In other words, what's better for CCP - seeing customer confidence degrade because of speculation over CCP employees playing on TQ? Or adapting to stop all speculation by relying on alternate solutions to keep improving the game - players' feedback, more SiSi stress-testing, etc. Like I said before, I personally have no qualm with CCP employees playing on TQ, I'm merely probing out for possible solutions to the problem on hand. It's their decision to make, obviously, and good luck to them in picking the lesser of two evils. Fate kills
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:00:00 - [500] Originally by: kieron Originally by: nickky01 last time that GM had a rattlesnake faction fitted or whatever, and the FIXie killed him and got banned, and caused all that drama...thats what i was talking about. THAT time it was a GM...THIS time (as in what they are supposedly investigating whatever happend a year ago) is a dev. True, over the summer of '06 a GM was terminated for spawning items for himself on TQ, we investigated the incident and posted a news item about what had transpired. What happened then will also happen now, an investigation will take place and proper action will be taken. where can i find that news sotry? Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Chi Prime Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:00:00 - [501] Jeez, what a lynch mob. It is when this type of dynamic happens in RL that ppl get hanged without due process... Please calm down and let CCP investigate it.
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light Astral Wolves	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:00:00 - [502] Originally by: kieron Originally by: nickky01 last time that GM had a rattlesnake faction fitted or whatever, and the FIXie killed him and got banned, and caused all that drama...thats what i was talking about. THAT time it was a GM...THIS time (as in what they are supposedly investigating whatever happend a year ago) is a dev. True, over the summer of '06 a GM was terminated for spawning items for himself on TQ, we investigated the incident and posted a news item about what had transpired. What happened then will also happen now, an investigation will take place and proper action will be taken. where can i find that news sotry? Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw!
Chi Prime Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:00:00 - [503] Jeez, what a lynch mob. It is when this type of dynamic happens in RL that ppl get hanged without due process... Please calm down and let CCP investigate it.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:03:00 - [504] Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. Please read that bolded text again. Is that too much to bear? In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:03:00 - [505] Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. Please read that bolded text again. Is that too much to bear? In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:05:00 - [506] Edited by: welsh wizard on 31/01/2007 20:08:12 Edited by: welsh wizard on 31/01/2007 20:04:17 It's a massive dilema with no real solution that will kill both birds. 1. On the one hand developer involvement is vital if we are to continue recieving the same quality gameplay we have done for almost 4 years now. So logically removing CCP employee involvement from Tranquility is not the answer. 2. The other argument is equally valid however. CCP employees are involved in 0.0 alliance politics, damning evidence has been put forward that suggests an entity may have been exploiting this for personal gain. Clearly this cannot continue without some kind of resolution regardless of whatever CCP's investigation uncovers. So whats the answer? The only answer I can think of is to try and find some kind of middle ground. But how? Identify CCP employees in game? Deny them access to 0.0 alliance politics? Both of these things will hurt the games future in minor ways but surely it's better than continuing as we are now? I won't pretend to have the answers, only an opinion, I'm confident CCP will do the right thing at the end of the day. Normally I'd completely agree with point 1. but unfortunately theres a particuarly nasty spanner in the works that changes everything... We pay for this game with our own hard earned cash. This is the critical point that the entire poo storm balances on. edit: Agreeing with Razor Jaxx. Action of some form is required, whatever it is must be CCP's decision.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:05:00 - [507] Edited by: welsh wizard on 31/01/2007 20:08:12 Edited by: welsh wizard on 31/01/2007 20:04:17 It's a massive dilema with no real solution that will kill both birds. 1. On the one hand developer involvement is vital if we are to continue recieving the same quality gameplay we have done for almost 4 years now. So logically removing CCP employee involvement from Tranquility is not the answer. 2. The other argument is equally valid however. CCP employees are involved in 0.0 alliance politics, damning evidence has been put forward that suggests an entity may have been exploiting this for personal gain. Clearly this cannot continue without some kind of resolution regardless of whatever CCP's investigation uncovers. So whats the answer? The only answer I can think of is to try and find some kind of middle ground. But how? Identify CCP employees in game? Deny them access to 0.0 alliance politics? Both of these things will hurt the games future in minor ways but surely it's better than continuing as we are now? I won't pretend to have the answers, only an opinion, I'm confident CCP will do the right thing at the end of the day. Normally I'd completely agree with point 1. but unfortunately theres a particuarly nasty spanner in the works that changes everything... We pay for this game with our own hard earned cash. This is the critical point that the entire poo storm balances on. edit: Agreeing with Razor Jaxx. Action of some form is required, whatever it is must be CCP's decision.
Vensa Heckler ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:07:00 - [508] Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. Please read that bolded text again. Is that too much to bear? it wouldn't be, if there was any reason for them to be asking that. its no more relevant than me asking that the devs don't drink cola because i think it skews the game in some way. there is no conclusive proof of either, end of. (moar analogies, moar!!!! grhahahahah!) - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:07:00 - [509] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:05:02 Razor, The game is not played on singularity. System testing is not the same as actually playing the game. Second hand experience is not experience itself. I'd be shocked if a major corp CEO was a dev. Anyone else, I really couldn't care less. CCP would have a lot more to worry about in terms of public perception if they did NOT play their own game. As I said, it's been seen in action and the results are very very rarely pretty. There is no substitute in making ANY game for getting down and dirty in a play session. This goes twice for something like a MMO where there are so many subjective factors to enjoyment. The gaming press are going to run with it, of course. But they'd run with a "they don't play" story as well, and in the end Eve would suffer for the devs not playing. This is a particular issue for CCP because they have a single world. I know in a certain smaller MMO the devs deliverately scattered themselves across servers and n more than two in any single clan. And it does depend, in frex Iron Realm's MMOs there is quite a bit of GM work related to PvP (and it's how it's allways worked there). Aertuun, if you want a poorer quality of fixes and improved for 0.0 alliances, sure. Hearing "oh it was slightly laggy tonight" is no substitute for seeing the effects of that lag first hand. There is certainly action needed if these rumours are false. Legal action for defamation against the instigators. //Maya
Vensa Heckler ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:07:00 - [510] Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. Please read that bolded text again. Is that too much to bear? it wouldn't be, if there was any reason for them to be asking that. its no more relevant than me asking that the devs don't drink cola because i think it skews the game in some way. there is no conclusive proof of either, end of. (moar analogies, moar!!!! grhahahahah!) - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:07:00 - [511] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:05:02 Razor, The game is not played on singularity. System testing is not the same as actually playing the game. Second hand experience is not experience itself. I'd be shocked if a major corp CEO was a dev. Anyone else, I really couldn't care less. CCP would have a lot more to worry about in terms of public perception if they did NOT play their own game. As I said, it's been seen in action and the results are very very rarely pretty. There is no substitute in making ANY game for getting down and dirty in a play session. This goes twice for something like a MMO where there are so many subjective factors to enjoyment. The gaming press are going to run with it, of course. But they'd run with a "they don't play" story as well, and in the end Eve would suffer for the devs not playing. This is a particular issue for CCP because they have a single world. I know in a certain smaller MMO the devs deliverately scattered themselves across servers and n more than two in any single clan. And it does depend, in frex Iron Realm's MMOs there is quite a bit of GM work related to PvP (and it's how it's allways worked there). Aertuun, if you want a poorer quality of fixes and improved for 0.0 alliances, sure. Hearing "oh it was slightly laggy tonight" is no substitute for seeing the effects of that lag first hand. There is certainly action needed if these rumours are false. Legal action for defamation against the instigators. //Maya
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:15:00 - [512] "DAoC devs play, their PR person played on Merlin," - She was a lowb newb, light years from the high-end game, much to everyones dismay when she'd comment on balance issues from her 8th level perspective. "EQ GMs could turn the GM flag off and play as a regular person iirc, I know at least one GM played on my server(Rodcet nife)." - They couldnt have a playable character on the same server they GM'd on. ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:15:00 - [513] "DAoC devs play, their PR person played on Merlin," - She was a lowb newb, light years from the high-end game, much to everyones dismay when she'd comment on balance issues from her 8th level perspective. "EQ GMs could turn the GM flag off and play as a regular person iirc, I know at least one GM played on my server(Rodcet nife)." - They couldnt have a playable character on the same server they GM'd on. ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:18:00 - [514] Edited by: Aertuun on 31/01/2007 20:15:30 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:05:02 Aertuun, if you want a poorer quality of fixes and improved for 0.0 alliances, sure. Hearing "oh it was slightly laggy tonight" is no substitute for seeing the effects of that lag first hand. It's entirely possible to see, monitor, and experience the effects of lag, fleet lag, and POS lag without being members of 0.0 Alliances or corps. If people can't figure out how GMs and devs can maintain the same level of fixes, quality and improvements without the potential for huge (and irreversible) abuses of power, that's a failure of imagination.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:18:00 - [515] Edited by: Aertuun on 31/01/2007 20:15:30 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:05:02 Aertuun, if you want a poorer quality of fixes and improved for 0.0 alliances, sure. Hearing "oh it was slightly laggy tonight" is no substitute for seeing the effects of that lag first hand. It's entirely possible to see, monitor, and experience the effects of lag, fleet lag, and POS lag without being members of 0.0 Alliances or corps. If people can't figure out how GMs and devs can maintain the same level of fixes, quality and improvements without the potential for huge (and irreversible) abuses of power, that's a failure of imagination.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:22:00 - [516] Then provide the answers, and the tools. ... Waiting! //Maya
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:22:00 - [517] Then provide the answers, and the tools. ... Waiting! //Maya
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:23:00 - [518] I see your point, Maya. Maybe there are some satisfactory solutions that can be found, ones that will squelch speculation while allowing employees to keep playing on TQ and thus stay in touch with the game, and keep on improving it. Some form of control, maybe? Or restrictions of sorts? I just don't believe any kind of statu quo will do any good. Fate kills
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:23:00 - [519] Edited by: Popsikle on 31/01/2007 20:21:35 Originally by: Aertuun Edited by: Aertuun on 31/01/2007 20:15:30 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:05:02 Aertuun, if you want a poorer quality of fixes and improved for 0.0 alliances, sure. Hearing "oh it was slightly laggy tonight" is no substitute for seeing the effects of that lag first hand. It's entirely possible to see, monitor, and experience the effects of lag, fleet lag, and POS lag without being members of 0.0 Alliances or corps. If people can't figure out how GMs and devs can maintain the same level of fixes, quality and improvements without the potential for huge (and irreversible) abuses of power, that's a failure of imagination. proof or stfu. Originally by: Razor Jaxx I see your point, Maya. Maybe there are some satisfactory solutions that can be found, ones that will squelch speculation while allowing employees to keep playing on TQ and thus stay in touch with the game, and keep on improving it. Some form of control, maybe? Or restrictions of sorts? I just don't believe any kind of statu quo will do any good. TBH, the fact they have already fired a dev in a previous investigation should, imo, be enough to prove they dont stand for unfair advantages for any of thier customers because of dev involvement. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Razor Jaxx Fate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:23:00 - [520] I see your point, Maya. Maybe there are some satisfactory solutions that can be found, ones that will squelch speculation while allowing employees to keep playing on TQ and thus stay in touch with the game, and keep on improving it. Some form of control, maybe? Or restrictions of sorts? I just don't believe any kind of statu quo will do any good. Fate kills
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:23:00 - [521] Edited by: Popsikle on 31/01/2007 20:21:35 Originally by: Aertuun Edited by: Aertuun on 31/01/2007 20:15:30 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:05:02 Aertuun, if you want a poorer quality of fixes and improved for 0.0 alliances, sure. Hearing "oh it was slightly laggy tonight" is no substitute for seeing the effects of that lag first hand. It's entirely possible to see, monitor, and experience the effects of lag, fleet lag, and POS lag without being members of 0.0 Alliances or corps. If people can't figure out how GMs and devs can maintain the same level of fixes, quality and improvements without the potential for huge (and irreversible) abuses of power, that's a failure of imagination. proof or stfu. Originally by: Razor Jaxx I see your point, Maya. Maybe there are some satisfactory solutions that can be found, ones that will squelch speculation while allowing employees to keep playing on TQ and thus stay in touch with the game, and keep on improving it. Some form of control, maybe? Or restrictions of sorts? I just don't believe any kind of statu quo will do any good. TBH, the fact they have already fired a dev in a previous investigation should, imo, be enough to prove they dont stand for unfair advantages for any of thier customers because of dev involvement. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:25:00 - [522] Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. Please read that bolded text again. Is that too much to bear? it wouldn't be, if there was any reason for them to be asking that. its no more relevant than me asking that the devs don't drink cola because i think it skews the game in some way. there is no conclusive proof of either, end of. (moar analogies, moar!!!! grhahahahah!) There is a reason people are asking that. And what we are discussing here has nothing to do with devs drinking coca-cola or not, even though that would be a much more humourus discussion. As I lot of people, I am confident CCP will resolve the matter (not the coca-cola one, the other one). If you ignore the flame and troll posts, this thread actually has some valid arguments in it. In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:25:00 - [523] Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 20:32:41 Edited by: Victor Vision on 31/01/2007 20:31:05 Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Vensa Heckler Originally by: Victor Vision Originally by: Lorth Some of the reply's and the witch hunt that is going on is truely one of the sadest things I have seen in an online game for quiet some time. Have you no clue as to how to seperate your in game hate for a group, from issues concerning RL? The general attitude seems to be, that they are BOB therefore they must be guilty. I do not get what you are on about. The allegations made are very serious, and effect almost everyone in game. People are asking that no one should gain an unfair advantge through DEV or GM accounts, items, information or preference. I do not know, but my guess would be CCP shares this opinion. The MC posts I see in this thread are asking people to stfu. This leaves the impression that you either do not care about the game, or do not care about fairplay. I hope I am wrong. The MC posts in here are based upon the principle of innocent until proven guilty. considering that there is nothing that anyone here can say to prove anything, stfu-ing isn't such a bad idea. Please read that bolded text again. Is that too much to bear? it wouldn't be, if there was any reason for them to be asking that. its no more relevant than me asking that the devs don't drink cola because i think it skews the game in some way. there is no conclusive proof of either, end of. (moar analogies, moar!!!! grhahahahah!) There is a reason people are asking that. And what we are discussing here has nothing to do with devs drinking coca-cola or not, even though that would be a much more humourus discussion. As a lot of people, I am confident CCP will resolve the matter (not the coca-cola one, the other one). If you ignore the flame and troll posts, this thread actually has some valid arguments in it. In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:26:00 - [524] Originally by: Maya Rkell Then provide the answers, and the tools. ... Waiting! Provide some specific examples of situations that a dev would need first-hand experience of in order to fully appreciate/fix/improve. Am happy to provide answers/solutions. So far we've had lots of vague generalisations thrown about.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:26:00 - [525] Originally by: Maya Rkell Then provide the answers, and the tools. ... Waiting! Provide some specific examples of situations that a dev would need first-hand experience of in order to fully appreciate/fix/improve. Am happy to provide answers/solutions. So far we've had lots of vague generalisations thrown about.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:29:00 - [526] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 20:26:57 Originally by: Razor Jaxx I see your point, Maya. Maybe there are some satisfactory solutions that can be found, ones that will squelch speculation while allowing employees to keep playing on TQ and thus stay in touch with the game, and keep on improving it. Some form of control, maybe? Or restrictions of sorts? I just don't believe any kind of statu quo will do any good. Elablorate restrictions and controls will throw off the experience and destroy much of why its worthwhile in the first place. I don't believe for a second that dev play accounts are not monitored, incidentally. Also, if there was that sort of thing, they're going to start losing many of their best employees (or at the least, discouraging applications from some of), the ones who loveplaying Eve and have a feel for the game and what it needs. That's a slippery slope. //Maya
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:30:00 - [527] "There are plenty of MMORPG's out there with much larger player bases than EvE where developers are barred from playing on live servers." Which games are these? (i don't keep eye on the policies regarding that issue so it's genuine question) Since you say plenty, i figure naming 3-5 will suffice... just so we can hopefully get vague idea if barring the devs from live servers have some noticeable impact on quality of the game one way or the other. "I am not saying there is NO value to having a dev playing, I am just saying that a dev being part of 0.0 alliance brings up a LOT of conflict of interest issues, to the point where the advantages of a dev playing are outweighed by the disadvantages." Certainly, am not going to deny there's potential for conflict here. But then i think we'll simply differ in the estimation of the disadvantages here -- because from what i can see, the disadvantages are mainly theoretical conjectures blown entirely out of proportion. This is absolutely normal, people don't know what they can expect so they presume the worst... but then at the same time i refuse this fear to dictate my reaction to the whole issue. If/when there's actual cases of abuse that can be tracked down and proven, then by all means, have CCP take care of it and deal with them (that's what the petition system is for amongst other things) But until it's proven and shown without doubt that devs are influencing the game and have negative effect on it, to demand them banned from experiencing their own game is imo kneejerk reaction based on "what if" "Devs want to play? Fine, then it is their responsibility to explain how they are doing that without unfairly taking advantage of game mechanics. But the situation as it exists now (devs playing + total secrecy) is a recipe for trouble." How does one prove they are not a reindeer, and/or they are not beating their wife? You are asking for impossible, here. Do you expect them to fill daily reports of in-game activities? "logged in, warped to belt. Killed a spawn. crashed. Relogged. Found myself in the pod. Went to station, got another ship" ... this kind of things? It's like asking anyone to prove they are living a honest life. You cannot prove such a thing in any reasonable manner, especially over the 'net. It's not devs responsibility to prove they are honest. It's your responsibility to prove your case when you think they're not. "Ultimately this issue will be decided by folks pocketbooks. If I feel that I can't accomplish anything in this game because if I do some Dev-corp is going to run right over them using informaiton they are not privy to they WILL leave." Yes, although i fear the whole situation is a case of catch-22. People aren't basing their decision on what the devs do or not do, they are basing them on their own opinion regarding these doings. Because when you think of it, the only thing that can make one accept the devs' word that "there's no developers playing on the live server honest" ... is the faith in the word of the developer in the first place. If this faith is not present people who aren't believing the devs' words will simply conclude "well, that's just more lies" ... and leave anyway.
Everbane Underworld Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:30:00 - [528] I want a Dev in my corp for "secret infos", tips off and free goods as well
Philip Sterling GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:32:00 - [529] Edited by: Philip Sterling on 31/01/2007 20:30:38 Anyone who's a big enough loser to resort to hacking and such to 'win' a video game just needs to get a life. It's good to 'play to win' but taking a video game so seriously that you'd break the law of risk your job is just a sign that you need to make a serious change in your life. CCP can drive themselves nuts trying to prevent things like this from happening, but at the end of the day, if you have losers playing the game, it's not going to be fun. To me, the appeal of EVE is that there's a lot of nice, mature folks to play with. Reading threads like this makes me think that maybe the nice, mature folks are getting outnumbered by losers who have nothing more important in their lives than winning a video game. Regardless of whether someone did something 'morally oblivious,' this uproar is just rediculous. Galaxian is Recruiting
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:32:00 - [530] Originally by: Aertuun Originally by: Maya Rkell Then provide the answers, and the tools. ... Waiting! Provide some specific examples of situations that a dev would need first-hand experience of in order to fully appreciate/fix/improve. Am happy to provide answers/solutions. So far we've had lots of vague generalisations thrown about. Yes, and "it's possible to go against the entireity of software testing standards" is your generalisation. You're the one suggesting CCP adopt radical new working methods, now start talking details. //Maya
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:33:00 - [531] Originally by: Aertuun Originally by: Maya Rkell Then provide the answers, and the tools. ... Waiting! Provide some specific examples of situations that a dev would need first-hand experience of in order to fully appreciate/fix/improve. Am happy to provide answers/solutions. So far we've had lots of vague generalisations thrown about. Having to freighter in massive amounts of trade parts to keep your pos's in deep 0.0 up... And not being able to unload freighters at towers. This is an issue you only get to see how annoying it is by being one of the guys that has to haul robotics... Or the poor SoB that has to jump a freighter 45 jumps into 0.0 Just one.... out of many annoyances that could be improved if a dev took the time to try it, on a regualr basis, because his/her alliances sov depended on it. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Frater Perdurabo Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:35:00 - [532] Now, ok, this probably does need investigating by ccp. But really guys, most of the posts here make me think of that scene in The Holy Grail: 'She's a witch! BURN HER!!!!' 'How do you know shes a witch?' etc... maybe you should put the wood down and put the fire out til ccp have had a chance to look into things? Sig-> If my post has offended you, send me an evemail, i like to laugh at them. P.s. If you dont like my corp, why dont you go take a flying **** at the mooooooooon.
Gungankllr Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:39:00 - [533] I never minded the fact that CCP employees had accounts on Tranquility. Then all this came up. I don't know if it's true or not, and I'll wait until there is some sort of official resolution before I decide on what I'm going to do in the future. The idea that a single group of people can get such incredibly one-sided preferencial treatment doesn't bode well with me, especially considering how much time and effort I've put in over the last three years. I will say that if CCP wants to have complete and final resolution of this matter, they should really hire an outside investigative agency, as I'm not sure they should be investigating themselves, another conflict of interest perhaps. Not saying that CCP would lie or do any sort of covering up, but it would remove any doubt of mispropriety on their part during said investigation. But if any of these allegations do ring true, I believe that CCP should pull all account access to Tranquility from their staff, it's just common sense. Only my opinion.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:39:00 - [534] Edited by: Aertuun on 31/01/2007 20:37:09 Originally by: Popsikle Having to freighter in massive amounts of trade parts to keep your pos's in deep 0.0 up... And not being able to unload freighters at towers. This is an issue you only get to see how annoying it is by being one of the guys that has to haul robotics... Or the poor SoB that has to jump a freighter 45 jumps into 0.0. This is a good example. Entirely agree that devs should be forced to do this, repeatedly, over and over, until they get an idea of just how much of a drag this is. However, the dev can be forced to do this on a test server, rather than on the live server. They don't need to haul robotics to a network of POSes on a live server, they can do it on a test server. As for Maya's post, saying that GMs or devs shouldn't be part of 0.0 corps or alliances isn't "flying in the face of every software development guideline", or whatever rubbish you wrote in your post.
Ariso	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:44:00 - [535] The reason i think people aren't just letting CCP investigate this is because this type of stuff has happened before and nothing is ever learned. Old players i have talked to say about how people thought M0o were devs, M0o were friends with EVOL and RKK and joined BoB i believe. They dispand and now allegations of devs doing favours for these people, and similar allegations have been floating around since i begun playing. Devs playing their game for their fun has resulted in a number of MMO's going down, granted they were just browser games but their incomes depended on it also but they still cheated to give themselves and their friends advantages.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:47:00 - [536] Quote: incredibly one-sided preferencial treatment What exactly do you mean gungan ? Seriously, how come different people can read so differnt things in the same posts ? Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:49:00 - [537] News of this just hit slashdot.org.
Saint Juniper The Black Seal	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:50:00 - [538] Damn, beaten to the slashdotting. Last year we had GHSC heist, now this? yay, more free publicity for EVE.
Razer Morphis Minmatar	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:53:00 - [539] The -REAL- question is not if there are/were devs in BoB. The -REAL- question is not if there were, and they helped BoB. The real problem is how CCP will investigate and handle this to maintain a clean image. Strong EULA and forum bannings are common for the "innocent, yet sometimes dumb" users who pay for the game and their paychecks, so in order to maintain credibility, yes, a lynch mob on suspected dev cheaters can and - i really hope, for CCP's sake - SHOULD be enforced. And we want to see pictures of the bloodshed. We want a "Dev EULA" stating that cheaters will be fired and prosecuted. And if it happens again, everyone is free to present their evidence for consideration. If users are sometimes handled on a harsh way, then devs should be dealt in a 10 times harsher way. Noone wants to spend money to pay for a cheater's paycheck and BoB's auto-glorification that might come out of that infamous event. So, imho, what's really being discussed is CCP's will to maintain credibility and integrity, using transparent means that are public to everyone, instead of hiding the crap under a "soon" rug. If BoB knew or not, even though important, might be irrelevant if cheating devs change their "fashion likings" to join another alliance. BoB does not deserve the direct attacks (innocent until guilty), but surely dev cheaters (which, where it stands now, are 99% guilty and 0.00001% innocent) do deserve a public hanging. ---------------------- Here is some "EVE related content": FIX MY DAMN FORUM AVATAR PIC.
Canine Fiend Minmatar Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:53:00 - [540] Originally by: Saint Juniper Damn, beaten to the slashdotting. Last year we had GHSC heist, now this? yay, more free publicity for EVE. This is quite different from the GHSC heist, unless you're saying CCP was involved in that. -------------------
PDoggy	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:54:00 - [541] Originally by: Saint Juniper Damn, beaten to the slashdotting. Last year we had GHSC heist, now this? yay, more free publicity for EVE. "This game has corrupt devs that play favourites with the players" is not the kind of publicity you want.
Prydeless Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:54:00 - [542] Lots of incriminating evidence Will be interesting to see how this pans out...
Severian Maura	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:56:00 - [543] Developers if they want to play this should not be allowed to join alliances or take sovrienty in space. The will have to much temptaion to cheat and even more important is the perception of what the player base thinks. Developers and anyone in CCP you should join a corp stay in empire and occastional go out on raids or what not but not be involved in anything that would shape the current world and there standings should be neutral with everyone or hostile with everyone. The desire to cheat is to great a risk for them to allow in this game. And to think they wouldnt is assine, as far as I know CCP are human, I have known people to throw there lives down the tubes for far less than and MMORPG. In short CCP needs a clear cut Audit policy and gaming policy in place for there employess and it should be transparent to the consumer. However the skeptis in me knows that CCP is going to sweep this under the table because the world in which we live is becoming increasingy more of one where noone wants to take responsibilty for there actions.
Garonis Caldari Templars of Space CORE.	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:56:00 - [544] Edited by: Garonis on 31/01/2007 20:54:50 I personally dont care if Devs or GM's have accounts on TQ, whatever position in ANY corp is... I have Stated this to many of my friends and collegues before repetedly. However, these allegations, even if they are just allegations of misconduct on part of a Dev, go a long way to justifying the tinhat wearing conspiracy theorists out there that insist that Dev interaction in a player orginization confers unfair advantages. (gawds what a long sentence!!) Anyhow, I think the main reasons a lot of people are upset is that Trust in CCP's dev's, GM's impatiality has been (in at least a couple of cases)broken. It's also brought out the mudslinging forum warriors on both sides out in droves, simply because the alledge misconduct happened to be in BoB. It boils down to TRUST, and the PERCEPTION of Devs "stacking" the game in their respective faction's favor. This concerns me, a lot. I will be watching the matter closely. I hate to see a game I love as fiercly as any other long timer brought down by someone who is merely human at the end of the day. There should probably be a major oversight authority in place so that if some kind of wrongdoing DID in fact take place that it wont happen again, with full disclosure to the EvE public. edit-spelling This is my sig ^^
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:57:00 - [545] "The idea that a single group of people can get such incredibly one-sided preferencial treatment doesn't bode well with me, especially considering how much time and effort I've put in over the last three years." You are presuming #1 that there was actual preferential treatment here and #2 that it was exclusive to the point of making it one-sided. But there's no evidence to really support either of these presumptions, so... well, just worth considering that aspect, i guess o.O
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:58:00 - [546] Originally by: j0sephine "There are plenty of MMORPG's out there with much larger player bases than EvE where developers are barred from playing on live servers." Which games are these? (i don't keep eye on the policies regarding that issue so it's genuine question) Since you say plenty, i figure naming 3-5 will suffice... just so we can hopefully get vague idea if barring the devs from live servers have some noticeable impact on quality of the game one way or the other. WoW, EQ, DAOC Say what you like about those games but they are among the most successful MMORPG's around. Originally by: j0sephine Certainly, am not going to deny there's potential for conflict her. But then i think we'll simply differ in the estimation of the disadvantages here -- because from what i can see, the disadvantages are mainly theoretical conjectures blown entirely out of proportion. This is absolutely normal, people don't know what they can expect so they presume the worst... but then at the same time i refuse this fear to dictate my reaction to the whole issue. If/when there's actual cases of abuse that can be tracked down and proven, then by all means, have CCP take care of it and deal with them (that's what the petition system is for amongst other things) But until it's proven and shown without doubt that devs are influencing the game and have negative effect on it, to demand them banned from experiencing their own game is imo kneejerk reaction based on "what if" No offense, and I really don't want to turn this into a BoB vs everyone post, but it seems to me that you are a member of an alliance who has directly benifitted from Dev inovolement. I imagine you would see the "disadvantages" from a somewhat different angle if you were not on the receiving end of the Dev's largess. I am not calling for proof, I am calling for transparency. Frankly we will NEVER have the whole story because it is being investigated by the folks who have a fiduciary interest in NOT exposing the abuse. I will make my judgements based on my observations and gameplay. Quite frankly, no one in your organization has yet claimed that the posts made by Mr. Snip were wholly fabricated. Originally by: j0sephine How does one prove they are not a reindeer, and/or they are not beating their wife? I'm not asking for proof, I am asking for transparency. Originally by: j0sephine You are asking for impossible, here. Do you expect them to fill daily reports of in-game activities? Yes, that is not unreasonable considering that this is their job. I have to record what I am doing evry six minutes of my work-day. But to be honest that is not necessary, what you need is someone in charge of monitoring their activities OR public disclosure of who they are should be sufficient to keep them honest. Originally by: j0sephine It's like asking anyone to prove they are living a honest life. You cannot prove such a thing in any reasonable manner, especially over the 'net. It's not devs responsibility to prove they are honest. It's your responsibility to prove your case when you think they're not. I am not asking them to prove anything, I am just asking them to disclose, then we can check the facts on our own. By the metrics you set up it would be literally impossible to convict a criminal of anything. What is good enough proof for you? A confession? In the real world you don't always find a smoking gun, and many successful prosecutions rest solely on circumstantial evidence (guess what I do for a living)! What proof (that could reasonably be supplied) would convince you? We have proof in the form of the message board logs and a lot of circumstantial evidence. The Devs themselves have acknowleged they play the game and I see no one denying the fact that a Dev was at one time the head of your alliances logistics. If CCP is going to put themselves in that position, they had better be ready to defend themselves when folks cry fou
Trom Zatagnia Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 20:58:00 - [547] One thing I would like to point out to all those saying devs of other MMORPGs play on live servers... Those worlds are sharded. If a user doesn't want to play on the same server as a dev, they can go to a different one. GMs are also not allowed to play on servers they GM in most cases. That is not an option in eve. That, more than anything, is why there needs to be some transparency, especially when devs are involved in 0.0 politics. Thankfully, more and more content that was awarded (via lottery or event) is becoming available via other means. This should limit the effect of some poor/unethical decisions by devs or GMs.
Gungankllr Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:03:00 - [548] Originally by: Rod Blaine Quote: incredibly one-sided preferencial treatment What exactly do you mean gungan ? Seriously, how come different people can read so differnt things in the same posts ? I mean I can read the same blogs that everyone else can. I stated in the post that I'm waiting on the official findings and resolution before I decide what I'm going to do in the future. But from everything I have read, I believe that BoB recieved benefits and treatment that wasn't afforded to the rest of the playerbase, and that's not right. With the speed that everything is being posted, I don't believe any of it is being fabricated, and it's sad to see CCP hitting the person uncovering everything about what is going on with as many warnings as they can. I'm actually quite upset right now at the whole mess that members of CCP have both apparently encouraged and allowed to happen by not maintaining due dilligence. Like I said, I'll wait for the official findings, but since CCP employees are at the heart of this, I really wonder how they can show an impartial investigation. I dunno. Depressing.
Prydeless Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:05:00 - [549] Originally by: j0sephine "The idea that a single group of people can get such incredibly one-sided preferencial treatment doesn't bode well with me, especially considering how much time and effort I've put in over the last three years." You are presuming #1 that there was actual preferential treatment here and #2 that it was exclusive to the point of making it one-sided. I'll bet he is presuming right
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:05:00 - [550] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:03:20 Prydeless, lots of baseless "evidence", yes. Unless you happen to have solid evidence otherwise. The person claims to have hacked the data. This makes everything he posts forevermore suspect, regardless of the actual source. If you want to take the word of someone that like unaided, I have this bridge I'm selling.. Gungankllr, regardless of the outcome, the origional poster of this should be permabanned from the game because of the way he's breached the EULA. There should NOT be discrimination, and it's quite clear per the EULA and TOS that the right way to do this is private contact. //Maya
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:05:00 - [551] I really think that some people need to get a dose of reality here. While many might not like what BoB do in game even hate them in game i think that some people here really take it a bit far. I have read the "evidence" and all that stuff now (was away in the afternoon) on a couple of forums including screenshots of the posts here on eve-o and other stuff. While it seems quite obvious that this one dude is a dev, it does not really look obvious that he did anything wrong, except being a bit overexcited about helping friends he made in game to get a job at CCP. This is all not bad and there is no evidence of T2 BPO's being give to anyone. The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery. I would even go as far as claiming that at least 60% of the currently existing "tickets" for the lottery are in the hands of multi account runners. As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:06:00 - [552] And of course this also puts in new light the biased reporting on Eve-TV, where BoB were in the eyes of many people getting extreme amounts of 'airtime' while others were being ridiculed. Add this new information to that, and a picture is being painted which is very very ugly.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:08:00 - [553] Malachon Draco, given who the commentators are, that's plain FUNNY. //Maya
Tremitry Darkstar Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:09:00 - [554] The only problem with "transparency" is that characters that are known to be linked to developers will be treated differently for no reason other than the flag infront of their character name. There ONLY needs to be one system in place: CCP needs the ability to review actions that a developer's player account is capable of doing. Besides that, I don't care what a developer does in the game as long as he is not giving his group of freinds a significant advantage such as free stuff that is created out of nothing. I don't care if he is a CEO. I don't care if he wins a T2 BPO. I don't even care if he wins a pvp competition. The only thing I care about is that everything he aquires is aquired in the same method that every other player must do: by playing the game. Any "inside information" he may have is whimsical at best. "Knowing the code" on something as complicated as a video game does not gaurentee any advantage whatsoever. In fact, it might even be a handicap. For example, if I programmed the combat system into Eve with the intention that the "best" way to fight was to do step a, b, c, and d in that order... it is likely I will stick to that when I play. Chances are also likely that if that is indeed the "best way", other players will discover it and the knowledge will quickly spread. The advantage of programming that piece of code is nullified. However, if a creative player finds that adding an extra step vastly improves his performance, that player now has an advantage over me, the developer. While I thought my system would be the best, it turns out that doing steps a, b, e, d, c are actually more effecient. Believe or not, but this happens in video games ALL THE TIME. In fact, I've seen several things from devs that love to see what the playerbase has done with the game they've developed and used it in ways that they could have never imagined. That's right: IN WAYS THEY COULD HAVE NEVER IMAGINED. Devs need to be able to play this game just like any other normal player. Period. This includes winning lottery items. This includes leading other players in operations. And this DEFINITELY includes not being able to physically change their character or anyone else's character with gear and ISK that doesn't exist. Everyone wants things to be fair. The only way to do that is to ensure, devs and players alike, that they are all in the same boat with the same abilities. -Tremitry Darkstar
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:10:00 - [555] Originally by: Dekiri As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Its our money we pay for this game with, we can start a witch-hunt whenever we like. And its not us that dont have a choice. CCP is staring at a major problem here. With the news getting out to the rest of the internet, ** just hit the fan I bet at CCP. And its not about proof. This is the internet. I.e. the 'media'. Media don't give a ** about proof. Perception is everything, and at this point in time, perception is looking terrible for CCP. I already hear from people quitting over this.
Snarls McGee	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:11:00 - [556] Originally by: Seleene Interesting that a great number of the replies in this thread can be translated to - "I demand that CCP ban anyone who plays EVE in a different way than I do." This witch hunt is ******* disgusting TBH. I was going to keep silent during this thread until I saw this post. Where, exactly, are you seeing that? What I am seeing is a mass of population debating on the integrity of CCP, devs and human nature in general. As far as I'm concerned these are all legit questions. There would definately be an uproar if, instead of BoB, the accused alliance was AAA, RAGOON, MC, IAC, Joe Blow's Alliance. The only reason the flames are so high against BoB is by their own doings in tehir own previous smear campaigns. To paraphrase an old adage: "Live by the metagaming, die by the metagaming." I am not trying to imply that this will kill BoB but I certainly dn't see much difference in what happened here against BoB as what they've did similar to other alliances in the past (posting internal memos, "protected" message board info, etc) ---------- We've all heard that a million monkeys typing will eventually create something intelligent. Thanks to message forums we know that isn't true.
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:11:00 - [557] Originally by: Dekiri I really think that some people need to get a dose of reality here. While many might not like what BoB do in game even hate them in game i think that some people here really take it a bit far. I have read the "evidence" and all that stuff now (was away in the afternoon) on a couple of forums including screenshots of the posts here on eve-o and other stuff. While it seems quite obvious that this one dude is a dev, it does not really look obvious that he did anything wrong, except being a bit overexcited about helping friends he made in game to get a job at CCP. This is all not bad and there is no evidence of T2 BPO's being give to anyone. The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery. I would even go as far as claiming that at least 60% of the currently existing "tickets" for the lottery are in the hands of multi account runners. As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Your point drives home the fact we will hear and see nothing from CCP. If CCP comes out and admits oh yeah we got developers and GM working in BoB cheating and using game exploits, they would see a lot of cancelled accounts. As an owner of a companu I think you would want to cover that up to protect yourself nice and quietly. I know I would and have
Goran	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:11:00 - [558] kieron satated that ASCN had devs as members. and they had the most outposts and they had the first titan so what gungan - does that mean the devs cheated for them just because accusations are made that devs helped bob does not mean that they didnt help others - they just arent in the spotlight for what it is worth i trust ccp they have been public about playing their own game from day one - and suddenly it is going to kill eve? paranoia is what is going to kill eve threads like this are what is going to kill eve the guy spreading this crap is what is going to kill eve the people who need to believe this stuff are what is going to kill eve arguing for something to be done becuase they love the game? hardly. arguing because they feel that their failings are due to something sinister more like it. it is a coping mechanism for the weak in the head. they make me sick. im with ccp on this one. they dont deserve this crap - you lot should be ashamed
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:11:00 - [559] Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:14:50 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Its our money we pay for this game with, we can start a witch-hunt whenever we like. And its not us that dont have a choice. CCP is staring at a major problem here. With the news getting out to the rest of the internet, ** just hit the fan I bet at CCP. And its not about proof. This is the internet. I.e. the 'media'. Media don't give a about proof. Perception is everything, and at this point in time, perception is looking terrible for CCP. I already hear from people quitting over this. You can do what you like but you look like a lunatic and a complete idiot doing so. I can understand being concerned, but the way you and a lot of other peopel are acting is completly ridiculous and out of touch with reality. Oh and don't forget that most people do not "live in the internets" like you apparently do =P I am an educated person and i know that the internet is worse then any other media and "truth" is non existant here. Most people who are normally intelligent will make up their own mind and "quitting over this" is the most funny thing i can think about =) Those who are actually quitting over these rumors are not the peopel who play eve really. Because they are not drama resistant in the least. And if you play eve you HAVE to have a certain resistance to drama or play it solo. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur**
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:12:00 - [560] Edited by: petergriffen on 31/01/2007 21:14:36 Originally by: bulabuba Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 31/01/2007 17:56:40 Think before spouting your rubbish ffs. We're talking at least a hundred CCP employee owned accounts active in Eve Online, most likely spread around every alliance, profession, region and security status out there. And thank god that's how it propbaly is because otherwise there'd be no reason to suppose CCP could ever make this game better then it is. Uhhh... yeah. My "rubbish" is based on about 20 years in the software development business. What is it that you're basing your "rubbish" on? In the couple of decades, I've designed, created, and maintained countless applications that I never used myself, but that served the needs of their users well. The techniques for doing this are well known to anyone fit to be called a software engineer. While one may get away with it in the application business, game developers who don't play their games shouldn't be making them. I don't think video games would be around if the people who made them didn't play and enjoy them. If a dev got a BPO on the lottery, good for them! If the dev gave the BPO to their in-game alliance, good for their alliance! I know of multiple people who seem to have their own BPO printer... I doubt each one of them is a dev. To everyone else, stop throwing around accusations and wait for a response. Quit the game? Why? What has CCP done? If something did indeed happen, then they will deal with it and we will move on. They're hardly to blame for what may or may not have happened. This is the same old crap from you, Rod, frankly. All bully and bluster, and just no damn substance at all. I don't open my mouth unless I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should consider doing the same. If you're developing applications and not using them yourself, I hope I'm not using any of them. Programmers who don't use their programs tend not to care how the program works, just that it works. It's like using OS-X and XP... And I'm not talking about how well-built or the overall functionality of it, I'm talking about the DESIGN and the USER EXPERIENCE. I don't care HOW many cool features my program has. If it's a ***** to use, the people I'm selling it to are going to buy something else. I'm working on it!
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:13:00 - [561] Originally by: Tornan Originally by: Dekiri I really think that some people need to get a dose of reality here. While many might not like what BoB do in game even hate them in game i think that some people here really take it a bit far. I have read the "evidence" and all that stuff now (was away in the afternoon) on a couple of forums including screenshots of the posts here on eve-o and other stuff. While it seems quite obvious that this one dude is a dev, it does not really look obvious that he did anything wrong, except being a bit overexcited about helping friends he made in game to get a job at CCP. This is all not bad and there is no evidence of T2 BPO's being give to anyone. The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery. I would even go as far as claiming that at least 60% of the currently existing "tickets" for the lottery are in the hands of multi account runners. As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Your point drives home the fact we will hear and see nothing from CCP. If CCP comes out and admits oh yeah we got developers and GM working in BoB cheating and using game exploits, they would see a lot of cancelled accounts. As an owner of a companu I think you would want to cover that up to protect yourself nice and quietly. I know I would and have Do yourself a favour and read the dev replies in this thread before replying like an idiot. Kieron already said they will post results. You can't really ask more from a company. They already HAVE the press and covering up now is nonsense. They need to resolve it and find someone to punish and they will. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:15:00 - [562] Originally by: j0sephine [i] You are presuming #1 that there was actual preferential treatment here and #2 that it was exclusive to the point of making it one-sided. But there's no evidence to really support either of these presumptions, so... well, just worth considering that aspect, i guess o.O The simple fact that a dev was part of your director forum where you were discussing and planning shared account and ebaying, yet noone got banned for it, is more than enough. Deny it and you're a liar. ------ [SILD]
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:17:00 - [563] Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Its our money we pay for this game with, we can start a witch-hunt whenever we like. And its not us that dont have a choice. CCP is staring at a major problem here. With the news getting out to the rest of the internet, ** just hit the fan I bet at CCP. And its not about proof. This is the internet. I.e. the 'media'. Media don't give a ** about proof. Perception is everything, and at this point in time, perception is looking terrible for CCP. I already hear from people quitting over this. You can do what you like but you look like a lunatic and a complete idiot doing so. I can understand being concerned, but the way you and a lot of other peopel are acting is completly ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I have complained on this forum before about stuff slightly related to this. I didn't have conclusive proof then. But I happen to know that someone who was mentioned to me today as a Dev in BoB has left BoB or been kicked out (don't know which) today. Some people hear more than others, and not just people in BoB.
Thoric Frosthammer The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:18:00 - [564] The truly amusing thing here is that it doesn't matter whether there is any truth to the accusations or not. Because BoB has spent a lot of time being the big bully on the block, and smacking like madmen on the forums, and because they started, or at least accelerated, the "questionable methods" arms race in this game, people will believe it anyway. Basically, by playing the game as they do, BoB set themselves up for the hatred of the masses and a good old fashioned witch hunt. Whether they are a witch in fact will be settled by more scientific means than dunking them in a pond, one would hope. However BoB has to lie in the bed it's made, whether it turns out to be made of nails or not. Even if a CCP investigation "clears" them, people will assume its because the corruption goes too deep for CCP to police it without firing the major part of their dev team. So the accusations won't go away. If they get found guilty of even the most minor part of these charges, people will demand their head. And they may get it, if there's enough of an uproar that CCP figures they need to calm the masses. It's like accusing someone of any crime of moral turpitude, the stain won't wash off if there's anything for it to stick to, true or not. And in this case, BoB's reputation had plenty of sticky spots. Either way, it hurts the game, which is sad, tbh. CCP should install some serious sa***uards against this kind of thing, whether it happened here or not. MMO's depend on the confidence of the populace in their essential fairness as a gaming environment. A tilted playing field, or even the perception of one, soon results in no players.
Gungankllr Caldari STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:19:00 - [565] Originally by: Goran kieron satated that ASCN had devs as members. and they had the most outposts and they had the first titan so what gungan - does that mean the devs cheated for them If you came to me with evidence that ASCN had recieved preferencial treatment from the Development team I would be just as upset about it as I am now. I play this game because I like the player versus player interaction, I play because it's fun to go up against a person or group of people on somewhat even terms, all things being equal. The possibility that one side of any given conflict (BoB or otherwise) belittles and makes mute everything I feel I have worked for. And again, I'm waiting for the official findings before I condemn anybody, but until I see some sort of evidence to the contrary, my opinion on the matter is slanted negatively. Show me some proof otherwise, and I may reconsider. I really don't want to think that anybody at CCP would risk their jobs and livelyhoods on something like this, but then I think about Rattlesnakes and Officer mods... Stuff like that happens. Anyhow, I've tried to remain respectful, I'd ask you accord me the same. And post with your main.
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:20:00 - [566] Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:18:45 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Its our money we pay for this game with, we can start a witch-hunt whenever we like. And its not us that dont have a choice. CCP is staring at a major problem here. With the news getting out to the rest of the internet, ** just hit the fan I bet at CCP. And its not about proof. This is the internet. I.e. the 'media'. Media don't give a about proof. Perception is everything, and at this point in time, perception is looking terrible for CCP. I already hear from people quitting over this. You can do what you like but you look like a lunatic and a complete idiot doing so. I can understand being concerned, but the way you and a lot of other peopel are acting is completly ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I have complained on this forum before about stuff slightly related to this. I didn't have conclusive proof then. But I happen to know that someone who was mentioned to me today as a Dev in BoB has left BoB or been kicked out (don't know which) today. Some people hear more than others, and not just people in BoB. The official stance of CCP about this is 100% clear. Devs are allowed to play the game as they wish and if they cheat or someoen figures out they are devs they loose their chars and all they worked for. This is what is going to happen now as well. If you don't like it you don't agree with CCP's general stance on this and this is a completly different matter. Oh btw .. i "hear" a lot as well, probably more then many others, ask my CEO =p But that does not mean that it is all true. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur**
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:21:00 - [567] "WoW, EQ, DAOC Say what you like about those games but they are among the most successful MMORPG's around." I was under impression WoW staff can play on live servers -- i recall some of their 'community representatives', the community manager and (can be mistaken here) 1-2 devs mention their live server experiences at one point or another. Besides, how exactly would the company check if they don't have account used to play the game on live server? The EQ, i think it was mentioned in this thread at least the GMs were allowed to have regular characters in the game, if just on different shards. DAOC i have no idea, so won't comment. "but it seems to me that you are a member of an alliance who has directly benifitted from Dev inovolement." Then perhaps am in better position to speak about the whole ordeal than someone who has no first-hand knowledge regarding it? ^^ or in other words, being in the alliance in question i may have slightly better idea how much of the hearsay is just that. Then again i could of course be lying through my teeth. "I'm not asking for proof, I am asking for transparency." And i repeat, what exactly sort of transparency will be deemed sufficient, for people to believe that things are kept 100% fair? "Transparency" is a catch-all, but give me some specifics what --at least you personally-- would consider as 'good enough' assurance that devs are not providing people with favours that goes beyond what they can do as regular player. "I am not asking them to prove anything," You are demanding 'transparency so we know they are not cheating'. It's a nice way to word it but again, it's not very different from me demanding "transparency" from you so i can determine you are not beating your wife. Not that am accusing you of anything or asking for a proof, am i? -.o "What is good enough proof for you? A confession?" A hard evidence recorded in the server logs. In this particular case --given the accusations-- it would be either logs of the dev character spawning extra BPO's and passing them to their character (easy to track since tech.2 BPOs are supposed to be out there in limited amounts) ... or traces of tampering with the code that resulted in obtaining the BPOs (also easy to verify) It's not a complicated case when you get to the bottom of it, there's just lot of rabblerabblerabble around it obfuscating it and blowing into what it could've been.
Tremitry Darkstar Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:24:00 - [568] The ONLY evidence that can exist on this matter would be command logs on the CCP servers. Anything else that exists cannot be considered credible as it is impossible to prove or disprove. Why are people still talking about this? Go play Eve or something. -Tremitry Darkstar
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:24:00 - [569] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:23:01 Malachon Draco, okay. Five times recurring bounty for 5 mil on your corpse. Killmails and FRAPS required. Witch hunts4tw and such. Qu'ut Nez, so again you're taking the words of a self-admited hacker as evidence without any material proof whatsoever? You might want to reconsider that. The fact of the matter is that calling people liers in that matter is simply bias. (and please, accuse me of pro-BoB bias. I need a laugh!) j0sephine, it's my understanding that DAOC devs can. //Maya
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:26:00 - [570] Edited by: Helganstandt on 31/01/2007 21:24:30 Originally by: j0sephine I was under impression WoW staff can play on live servers -- i recall some of their 'community representatives', the community manager and (can be mistaken here) 1-2 devs mention their live server experiences at one point or another. Besides, how exactly would the company check if they don't have account used to play the game on live server? The difference is WoW has an entire department that is dedicated to regulating their staff 's activities on the server. CCP doesn't. If they can't hire enough people to check up on their GM's and their Dev's conduct, then they shouldn't let them play. You can't trust everyone to do the right thing, sadly. Edit: Should say I'm pretty sure of this, but not absolutely. I can't seem to find where I read that....
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:27:00 - [571] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:24:18 Helganstandt, how do you know CCP don't run spot checks, etc? Proof plz. And yes, you want to kill off Eve in the longer run by stopping the devs from playing and disconnecting them from the game, as well as costing CCP staff. We know. //Maya
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:27:00 - [572] Originally by: Dekiri Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:18:45 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Its our money we pay for this game with, we can start a witch-hunt whenever we like. And its not us that dont have a choice. CCP is staring at a major problem here. With the news getting out to the rest of the internet, ** just hit the fan I bet at CCP. And its not about proof. This is the internet. I.e. the 'media'. Media don't give a ** about proof. Perception is everything, and at this point in time, perception is looking terrible for CCP. I already hear from people quitting over this. You can do what you like but you look like a lunatic and a complete idiot doing so. I can understand being concerned, but the way you and a lot of other peopel are acting is completly ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I have complained on this forum before about stuff slightly related to this. I didn't have conclusive proof then. But I happen to know that someone who was mentioned to me today as a Dev in BoB has left BoB or been kicked out (don't know which) today. Some people hear more than others, and not just people in BoB. The official stance of CCP about this is 100% clear. Devs are allowed to play the game as they wish and if they cheat or someoen figures out they are devs they loose their chars and all they worked for. This is what is going to happen now as well. If you don't like it you don't agree with CCP's general stance on this and this is a completly different matter. Oh btw .. i "hear" a lot as well, probably more then many others, ask my CEO =p But that does not mean that it is all true. Please link me to this official stance please because all we've got to go on at the moment is Kieron's post which merely states CCP Employees do play the game. I can't find any rules whatsoever that dictate what a CCP Employee can or cannot do.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:28:00 - [573] If you ask me, the Dev's don't play the game ENOUGH. Dev cheating is obviously a bad thing in a game, and anyone who has been around mmpogs for several years knows it happens in games. Despite the risk that some people can't be trusted with thier own game, having devs play is what makes the game better. You can tell when the devs don't play the game enough, and thats when you get things like TOA for DAOC. If the devs had to rely on what they read on the forums for what they should do in game EvE would have died a early death.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:28:00 - [574] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:23:01 Malachon Draco, okay. Five times recurring bounty for 5 mil on your corpse. Killmails and FRAPS required. Witch hunts4tw and such. Qu'ut Nez, so again you're taking the words of a self-admited hacker as evidence without any material proof whatsoever? You might want to reconsider that. The fact of the matter is that calling people liers in that matter is simply bias. (and please, accuse me of pro-BoB bias. I need a laugh!) j0sephine, it's my understanding that DAOC devs can. Cool. A witch hunt against me. As for the hacker, the reaction from BoB is enough proof its true.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:29:00 - [575] Originally by: Dekiri The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery...As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved...it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. There is certainly no evidence yet that the dev actually manipulated lottery mechanics, but he does seem to have pretty many T2 BPOs for a single character (no research alts revealed yet). But what bothers me is that no one supposedly knows exactly how the T2 lottery works--eg, are some corps and agents more likely to get BPO offers?--so a dev with this knowledge would be able to do better than us poor *******s, and pass this information on to his alliance buddies. The lottery is screwed up enough as it is, without players with superior knowledge of its mechanics from a dev gaining an edge. And this kind of thing would be difficult to turn up in any investigation conducted by CCP. Same issue applies now to Invention--how the hell it works, where best to find the BPCs and build components, etc.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:29:00 - [576] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:26:22 Malachon Draco, ANY reaction by BoB would convince you "it was true". They had devs. That is true. The bias is simply unproven, and you are trying to weave hearsay from someone who is a self-admitted hacker...well, I wonder precisely what relationship you have with him yourself, since you're taking his word for granted. (Hm...I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time I've put a bounty on your head...) //Maya
Gogela Caldari The Edge Foundation Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:30:00 - [577] Edited by: Gogela on 31/01/2007 21:33:16 Wow. IÆm not a big forum poster, and IÆm not anybody special in the game. Just a random newish capsule floating around the galaxy having a good time and trying not to get podded by the big boys. That said, I think I represent a significant demographic. I started playing this game because it looked like fun and Halo II was at the time full of modders. Fundamentally, modding and devs leveraging up their alliance in EvE seem to have a similar effect on the game from this players perspective. I like EvEà its fun to play when I have an hour or two to kill. àbut remember CCPà a game is only fun to play until itÆs notà or something better comes along. If cheating is par for the course, and if it makes the game not fun anymore, youÆre real life CEO can forget about ôthe next 10 years of EvEö and would do well to start thinking about what your next MMORPG game is going to beà That's all I have to say. Think IÆll go do some ratting now. Hugs and kisses, ~Gogela ------------------------------------ "A hungry man will tell you anything if you give him a cookie."
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:30:00 - [578] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Dekiri Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:18:45 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved and not just some dude trying to do something for someone he got to know in game and who maybe needed a job, it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. Be fair sit back and wait what happens. You have no other choice anyways. And trust me in this one i know for a fact that the upper people at CCP will not tolerate someone destroying their baby. I know how it is to own a company i do have one myself and it is my sweet baby and i would never allow any of my employees ruining my work. Chill people oh my god. Its our money we pay for this game with, we can start a witch-hunt whenever we like. And its not us that dont have a choice. CCP is staring at a major problem here. With the news getting out to the rest of the internet, ** just hit the fan I bet at CCP. And its not about proof. This is the internet. I.e. the 'media'. Media don't give a about proof. Perception is everything, and at this point in time, perception is looking terrible for CCP. I already hear from people quitting over this. You can do what you like but you look like a lunatic and a complete idiot doing so. I can understand being concerned, but the way you and a lot of other peopel are acting is completly ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I have complained on this forum before about stuff slightly related to this. I didn't have conclusive proof then. But I happen to know that someone who was mentioned to me today as a Dev in BoB has left BoB or been kicked out (don't know which) today. Some people hear more than others, and not just people in BoB. The official stance of CCP about this is 100% clear. Devs are allowed to play the game as they wish and if they cheat or someoen figures out they are devs they loose their chars and all they worked for. This is what is going to happen now as well. If you don't like it you don't agree with CCP's general stance on this and this is a completly different matter. Oh btw .. i "hear" a lot as well, probably more then many others, ask my CEO =p But that does not mean that it is all true. Please link me to this official stance please because all we've got to go on at the moment is Kieron's post which merely states CCP Employees do play the game. I can't find any rules whatsoever that dictate what a CCP Employee can or cannot do. The explanations appeared in several topics about this matter and if i remember right it was even mentioned in one of the discussions with the devs on EVE-TV. You will have to use the forum search function or eve-search.com. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur**
Puke Skystalker Minmatar The Mystical Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:30:00 - [579] Originally by: Philip Sterling Edited by: Philip Sterling on 31/01/2007 20:30:38 Anyone who's a big enough loser to resort to hacking and such to 'win' a video game just needs to get a life. It's hardly suprising, just the next step on the slippery slope once the line is crossed. Some people have a craving to "win" at any cost and the stakes have become way too high especially with the real cash interests floating about. Back room deals, meta gaming, social engineering, corp / TS infiltration and the other lamer tactics. The gauntlet was thrown down long ago and logically for some the next step was hacking. What appears to have come to light as a consequence of these tactics is even more disturbing than what started this whole **** storm rolling.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:32:00 - [580] Edited by: Helganstandt on 31/01/2007 21:31:47 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:24:18 Helganstandt, how do you know CCP don't run spot checks, etc? Proof plz. And yes, you want to kill off Eve in the longer run by stopping the devs from playing and disconnecting them from the game, as well as costing CCP staff. We know. It doesn't make sense, because they don't have enough employees. They can't even get the petition queue down to within a matter of weeks, how are they going to hire enough people to monitor dev's and GM's to make sure they're not exploiting their privileges and info for their characters? I assume that the fact that they have to "investigate" in the first place is pretty good proof that they're not doing it on a regular basis. Edit: So that being said, if they DO have a department that is always looking for misconduct of CCP Staff, they're doing a **** poor job. Either way, they need to fix it to the point where it's not an issue. Otherwise they have to not let the GM's and Devs play.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:32:00 - [581] Can we rename fountain to salem please Half Assed Rhymage
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:34:00 - [582] Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:31:59 Originally by: Tanis Bastar Originally by: Dekiri The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery...As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved...it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. There is certainly no evidence yet that the dev actually manipulated lottery mechanics, but he does seem to have pretty many T2 BPOs for a single character (no research alts revealed yet). But what bothers me is that no one supposedly knows exactly how the T2 lottery works--eg, are some corps and agents more likely to get BPO offers?--so a dev with this knowledge would be able to do better than us poor *****s, and pass this information on to his alliance buddies. The lottery is screwed up enough as it is, without players with superior knowledge of its mechanics from a dev gaining an edge. And this kind of thing would be difficult to turn up in any investigation conducted by CCP. Same issue applies now to Invention--how the hell it works, where best to find the BPCs and build components, etc. Afaik it was once stated on these very forums that it is a simple lottery where you can get tickets for and if one of the items showing as predicted bpo's in your research field in your agent you will participate with all the tickets you have at that agent. I highly doubt that it is any more complicated, because it would also not make sense to make it any different. The reason why things don't get "revealed" with exact statistics is to keep the rumor mill up and also the doubts and the "magic" of the game. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur**
gaaksel The Legion.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:36:00 - [583] You people really have to cool down. There is literally no MMORPG where the devs / gms do not play the game themselves. Want some examples ? In WoW the euro GMs received a prepaid euro account (paid for i think 26 years in advance) upon being hired. These accounts they are allowed to keep after they pass the trial period. Devs / GMs / QA / CS department members all play the game on a multitude of servers in all factions together and against each other. Blizzard still runs a program allowing certain members of the community early access to closed betas on upcoming games and extensions. In AO GMs were partly recruited out of the player base and were supposed to keep playing, after being recruited. Certain members of the community were granted access to the so called Area51 which was roughly a communication board between the devs and selected players out of the community (you guessed right, mostly people that played pretty hardcore and knew alot of the games existing problems especially in the high end content) There are programs similar to those in literally all mmorpgs currently on the market. Why is all this done ? The reason is simple, for a successful GM it is vital that he fully understands game mechanics on all problems that may or may not arise during the time he is on duty, as such it is vastly important he has a good knowledge of the game and you don't get that knowledge by playing a game during your office hours on the side. No matter how hard you try as a developer if you don't see the outcome of your changes and balancing approaches first hand all your excel tables and number crunching will not give you the right impression and then , there is the one factor that you cannot calculate which is : Does it feel right ? The only way for a MMORPG company to keep in touch with their community is to rely on their employees to collect, report and discuss first hand experience. But even then , even if you play the game after you worked on it for 10hours , there are parts that you cannot cover, that is when certain parts of the community are asked for their opinion, community members that stand out with their knowledge, their understanding of the game and their level of commitment into the game. You can however rest assured that all these activities are closely monitored, for simple business reasons. Now to the case at hand, yes even a Dev / GM / person is a human, now if there was really someone stepping out of the line and was passing intel , handing out in game items obtained by abusing his privileges or anything else not in the pretty strict NDA documents he undoubtedly signed once he was hired , he will be unemployed pretty soon. And on that note it is also highly unlikely that he will ever find another job in the MMORPG field. So as you can see this is a pretty high border for someone to cross and a pretty high risk attached to it affecting not only your current position but also your future positions in the industry. As such you can possibly imagine that the fraction of people willing to risk such a thing is really small. To conclude, yes every basket can contain a foul apple, however unless you believe the whole of CCP is corrupt and wants to ruin their own game you can rest assured that such a behavior will not be tolerated and dealt with with all consequences. Always remember CCP is after two things, more people to buy and use their product and watching their collective dream to create the best possible and most successful MMORPG come true. Just as anyone else running a business wants his company to succeed and his visions to become reality. Now sit back, follow the boards and wait for a CCP rep to post the results of their investigation.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:37:00 - [584] Originally by: Maya Rkell (Hm...I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time I've put a bounty on your head...) If so, I think it wasn't very effective so far And like I think I told you before, some people have more access to information than others. And what I hear from Kugutsumen is little more than confirmation on stuff I heard several times before from other, rather reliable sources. Though without proof, but Kugutsumen takes care of that reasonably well.
Lenutza GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:40:00 - [585] Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case, with the large numbers of deleted posts and PMs involving @ccp email addresses. This is a huge problem. You cannot run a MMOG this way -- especially in Eve, where the players drive the economy, a level playing field is everything.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:42:00 - [586] Originally by: Dekiri Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:31:59 Originally by: Tanis Bastar Originally by: Dekiri The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery...As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved...it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. There is certainly no evidence yet that the dev actually manipulated lottery mechanics, but he does seem to have pretty many T2 BPOs for a single character (no research alts revealed yet). But what bothers me is that no one supposedly knows exactly how the T2 lottery works--eg, are some corps and agents more likely to get BPO offers?--so a dev with this knowledge would be able to do better than us poor *******s, and pass this information on to his alliance buddies. The lottery is screwed up enough as it is, without players with superior knowledge of its mechanics from a dev gaining an edge. And this kind of thing would be difficult to turn up in any investigation conducted by CCP. Same issue applies now to Invention--how the hell it works, where best to find the BPCs and build components, etc. Afaik it was once stated on these very forums that it is a simple lottery where you can get tickets for and if one of the items showing as predicted bpo's in your research field in your agent you will participate with all the tickets you have at that agent. I highly doubt that it is any more complicated, because it would also not make sense to make it any different. The reason why things don't get "revealed" with exact statistics is to keep the rumor mill up and also the doubts and the "magic" of the game. Well, what some people think is that BPOs are first divided between agents, and then a lottery between the people having RP with that agent takes place. If that is the case, a developer giving a definite answer on that would be very helpful if you're the only one who knows thats the mechanic.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:42:00 - [587] Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Dekiri The official stance of CCP about this is 100% clear. Devs are allowed to play the game as they wish and if they cheat or someoen figures out they are devs they loose their chars and all they worked for. This is what is going to happen now as well. If you don't like it you don't agree with CCP's general stance on this and this is a completly different matter. Oh btw .. i "hear" a lot as well, probably more then many others, ask my CEO =p But that does not mean that it is all true. Please link me to this official stance please because all we've got to go on at the moment is Kieron's post which merely states CCP Employees do play the game. I can't find any rules whatsoever that dictate what a CCP Employee can or cannot do. The explanations appeared in several topics about this matter and if i remember right it was even mentioned in one of the discussions with the devs on EVE-TV. You will have to use the forum search function or eve-search.com. I have found no such thing using Eve-Search or by looking through the dev blogs. I am willing to accept the fact that I'm not good enough to find this information so if anyone else on here can be so kind as to help me out I would be very appreciative. Until then Dekiri, I'm going to have to see your post as pure hearsay. The fact that such information is so difficult to find is telling.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:42:00 - [588] Originally by: gaaksel some good stuff I do agree with what you said, and it is pretty essential that the staff be able to play the game. But CCP needs to realize that they have to hire a dedicated group of people to monitor the in-game activities of the devs and GM's to make sure they aren't using their info or their powers to their advantage. This investigation is a step in the right direction, but it should be happening all the time. That's what the other MMO's do.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:45:00 - [589] Helganstandt, so you're working off hearsay. Although the work would be less for a smaller team. You really need to rethink that one. And y'know, it might just be that this crap is unfounded and they HAVE been doing their jobs. But you've allready evidently made your mind up. I have not. And yes, you hate Eve. Alright already. Malachon Draco... so...you're admitting a connection to a hacker. There is no excuse whatsoever for dealing with him, afaik. I've done responding to you. You and your hacker buddies have fun now. //Maya
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:45:00 - [590] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:31:59 Originally by: Tanis Bastar Originally by: Dekiri The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery...As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved...it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. There is certainly no evidence yet that the dev actually manipulated lottery mechanics, but he does seem to have pretty many T2 BPOs for a single character (no research alts revealed yet). But what bothers me is that no one supposedly knows exactly how the T2 lottery works--eg, are some corps and agents more likely to get BPO offers?--so a dev with this knowledge would be able to do better than us poor *****s, and pass this information on to his alliance buddies. The lottery is screwed up enough as it is, without players with superior knowledge of its mechanics from a dev gaining an edge. And this kind of thing would be difficult to turn up in any investigation conducted by CCP. Same issue applies now to Invention--how the hell it works, where best to find the BPCs and build components, etc. Afaik it was once stated on these very forums that it is a simple lottery where you can get tickets for and if one of the items showing as predicted bpo's in your research field in your agent you will participate with all the tickets you have at that agent. I highly doubt that it is any more complicated, because it would also not make sense to make it any different. The reason why things don't get "revealed" with exact statistics is to keep the rumor mill up and also the doubts and the "magic" of the game. Well, what some people think is that BPOs are first divided between agents, and then a lottery between the people having RP with that agent takes place. If that is the case, a developer giving a definite answer on that would be very helpful if you're the only one who knows thats the mechanic. It is code my friend and code is kept as simple as possible. Not to mention that the mathematical chances don't change if you divide them randomly by agents first. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur**
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:46:00 - [591] "As for the hacker, the reaction from BoB is enough proof its true." hacker: "BoB are cheaters and dev alts" BoB: "zOMG, lies" random audience: "they are denying it, it's enough proof it is true!" isn't it what it boils down to? ^^
Lunas Feelgood Maza Nostra	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:46:00 - [592] All you peeps really need to take a deep breath, unplug and watch handball WM instead or something.. As I allrdy have stated CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. **** posted with my alt
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:46:00 - [593] Edited by: Vishnej on 31/01/2007 21:43:22 Originally by: Chi Prime Jeez, what a lynch mob. It is when this type of dynamic happens in RL that ppl get hanged without due process... Please calm down and let CCP investigate it. A better parallel: This is why police departments feel it necessary to spend gobs of money on internal affairs divisions to spy on themselves.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:47:00 - [594] Originally by: Maya Rkell Helganstandt, so you're working off hearsay. Although the work would be less for a smaller team. You really need to rethink that one. And y'know, it might just be that this crap is unfounded and they HAVE been doing their jobs. But you've allready evidently made your mind up. I have not. And yes, you hate Eve. Alright already. Malachon Draco... so...you're admitting a connection to a hacker. There is no excuse whatsoever for dealing with him, afaik. I've done responding to you. You and your hacker buddies have fun now. No, I did not admit to having connections to a hacker. I have no clue about Kugutsumen. There are other sources than hackers you know...as BoB can undoubtedly tell you
Dekiri Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:47:00 - [595] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Dekiri The official stance of CCP about this is 100% clear. Devs are allowed to play the game as they wish and if they cheat or someoen figures out they are devs they loose their chars and all they worked for. This is what is going to happen now as well. If you don't like it you don't agree with CCP's general stance on this and this is a completly different matter. Oh btw .. i "hear" a lot as well, probably more then many others, ask my CEO =p But that does not mean that it is all true. Please link me to this official stance please because all we've got to go on at the moment is Kieron's post which merely states CCP Employees do play the game. I can't find any rules whatsoever that dictate what a CCP Employee can or cannot do. The explanations appeared in several topics about this matter and if i remember right it was even mentioned in one of the discussions with the devs on EVE-TV. You will have to use the forum search function or eve-search.com. I have found no such thing using Eve-Search or by looking through the dev blogs. I am willing to accept the fact that I'm not good enough to find this information so if anyone else on here can be so kind as to help me out I would be very appreciative. Until then Dekiri, I'm going to have to see your post as pure hearsay. The fact that such information is so difficult to find is telling. Might want to try harder =) Maybe if i am back from where i am at the moment i might send you an eve-mail if it really interests you. The post is somewhere here on the forums though =) --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:47:00 - [596] Originally by: j0sephine [i]"What is good enough proof for you? A confession?" A hard evidence recorded in the server logs. In this particular case --given the accusations-- it would be either logs of the dev character spawning extra BPO's and passing them to their character (easy to track since tech.2 BPOs are supposed to be out there in limited amounts) ... or traces of tampering with the code that resulted in obtaining the BPOs (also easy to verify) Spawning T2 BPOs is a blind accusation invented in this thread. If we want to play the "ill-gotten gains" game, you could just as well get isk from conveniently announced Serpentis events, then buy the BPOs on the open market. But that's pure speculation. And the hard evidence might never have existed in the server logs if the real infractions were made in the BoB forum. I repeat myself, but I'm not faulting BoB for using shared accounts and ebaying, every major alliance does this, but I'm definately faulting a dev for being actively involved with it. ------ [SILD]
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:48:00 - [597] Originally by: j0sephine "As for the hacker, the reaction from BoB is enough proof its true." hacker: "BoB are cheaters and dev alts" BoB: "zOMG, lies" random audience: "they are denying it, it's enough proof it is true!" isn't it what it boils down to? ^^ No its more like this: hacker: "BoB are cheaters and dev alts" BoB:"ZOMG, you hacked my forum" random audience:"Hmmmm...."
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:49:00 - [598] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 21:46:44 Originally by: Lenutza Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. I know who did this. You're flailing in the wind, they're not devs (American TZ). You simply lost out because of someone took a commercial gamble. It was relatively minor for him as well. Originally by: Lenutza Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. Invention was announced WELL before. Of course people dumped assets which were about to be devalued. This dosn't take insider info, it takes common sense. In the Eve economy, you snooze, you lose. This isn't the same as insider info. It just means you're not very good at manipulating it. Malachon Draco, "And what I hear from Kugutsumen" Right. Spin again. //Maya
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:51:00 - [599] Originally by: Maya Rkell Helganstandt, so you're working off hearsay. Although the work would be less for a smaller team. You really need to rethink that one. And y'know, it might just be that this crap is unfounded and they HAVE been doing their jobs. But you've allready evidently made your mind up. I have not. And yes, you hate Eve. Alright already. Wait, what? Where did I say I hate eve? Seriously, you have to get over yourself, you're not a beacon of truth either. People asked how other MMO's are different, I answered. Your skepticism is fine, but you offer no other counter points other than "this may just be unfounded crap". Yeah, it may be. And it may all be true and we could be looking at a huge corruption scandel. So all in all, you've said nothing. All I can see is "it may be true, it may not be, I don't think it's true". Yay, good for you, thanks for the opinion. Now why don't you give me some reasons as to why I need to "rethink" my idea of hiring a small team to monitor Dev and GM activity. Can you think of some good reasons not to?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:51:00 - [600] Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dekiri Edited by: Dekiri on 31/01/2007 21:31:59 Originally by: Tanis Bastar Originally by: Dekiri The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery...As long as it is not proven that there was cheating involved...it is really unfair to start a witch hunt. There is certainly no evidence yet that the dev actually manipulated lottery mechanics, but he does seem to have pretty many T2 BPOs for a single character (no research alts revealed yet). But what bothers me is that no one supposedly knows exactly how the T2 lottery works--eg, are some corps and agents more likely to get BPO offers?--so a dev with this knowledge would be able to do better than us poor *******s, and pass this information on to his alliance buddies. The lottery is screwed up enough as it is, without players with superior knowledge of its mechanics from a dev gaining an edge. And this kind of thing would be difficult to turn up in any investigation conducted by CCP. Same issue applies now to Invention--how the hell it works, where best to find the BPCs and build components, etc. Afaik it was once stated on these very forums that it is a simple lottery where you can get tickets for and if one of the items showing as predicted bpo's in your research field in your agent you will participate with all the tickets you have at that agent. I highly doubt that it is any more complicated, because it would also not make sense to make it any different. The reason why things don't get "revealed" with exact statistics is to keep the rumor mill up and also the doubts and the "magic" of the game. Well, what some people think is that BPOs are first divided between agents, and then a lottery between the people having RP with that agent takes place. If that is the case, a developer giving a definite answer on that would be very helpful if you're the only one who knows thats the mechanic. It is code my friend and code is kept as simple as possible. Not to mention that the mathematical chances don't change if you divide them randomly by agents first. I can do the math for you, but if you do the math yourself you will see that there is a difference if one party knows beforehand how it works, and the rest assumes a different method. Asymmetry of information actually changes the situation here. You would be right that if noone knows about it, then it doesnt matter.
Knubbins McGee Duck Farts	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:53:00 - [601] Originally by: Baun Edited by: Baun on 31/01/2007 17:27:24 Originally by: DTee Hacking is a crime. Ingame spying is not a crime. Dont make yourself look more stupid then you already have. So called ingame spying that stays in game may not be a crime or even be untoward. Potentially fraudulent misrepresentation to gain access to resources in which individuals have property interests (web servers, bandwidth, teamspeak servers, some personal information) is very close to gaining access to these same resources without permission by "hacking". Depending on where you are this could be a crime but almost anywhere you are it would invoke civil liability. Lying your way into access to information and property you otherwise would have no acess to certainly seems more artful than simply forcing your way in, but it is very ignorant to completely ignore the similiarity between the two acts. The horse you are riding is 6 inches tall, not 6 feet. QFT
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:53:00 - [602] Originally by: Maya Rkell Malachon Draco, "And what I hear from Kugutsumen" Right. Spin again. LOL Hear from in this case means read his Blog. Which I bet several thousand people on this forum have done by now, including half of BoB and half of CCP.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:53:00 - [603] Originally by: Lenutza Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case, with the large numbers of deleted posts and PMs involving @ccp email addresses. This is a huge problem. You cannot run a MMOG this way -- especially in Eve, where the players drive the economy, a level playing field is everything. If you want it level ALL alts and multiple accounts must be removed (which I am fully in support of even as a pirate that isn't allowed in highsec) Half Assed Rhymage
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:54:00 - [604] Originally by: j0sephine "What is good enough proof for you? A confession?" A hard evidence recorded in the server logs. In this particular case --given the accusations-- it would be either logs of the dev character spawning extra BPO's and passing them to their character (easy to track since tech.2 BPOs are supposed to be out there in limited amounts) ... or traces of tampering with the code that resulted in obtaining the BPOs (also easy to verify) I do not think that is easy to verify. If the BPO lottery works with a randomizing algorythm that uses a seed, then this algorythm can be reverse engineered and fed with a seed that makes a desired player "win" the lottery. If you do not understand how this works check some of my earlier posts in this thread. To the innocent bystander it will appear as though the random lottery run worked fine. There will be no evidence in any logs. All evidence would point to the win being legitimate, even though it might not have been. I have no idea how manipulation of this sort could ever be proven. In my business there is no black, nor white. Just a million different shades of grey.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:55:00 - [605] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Malachon Draco No, I did not admit to having connections to a hacker. I have no clue about Kugutsumen. There are other sources than hackers you know...as BoB can undoubtedly tell you You deserve a swift kick in the balls. Are you like this in real life too? i feel sorry for you. Yes, in real life I have a wry, rather cynical sense of humor as well. Sue me.
Wulbari Prime The Klavern	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:55:00 - [606] Edited by: Wulbari Prime on 31/01/2007 21:52:22 Originally by: Lenutza Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case, with the large numbers of deleted posts and PMs involving @ccp email addresses. This is a huge problem. You cannot run a MMOG this way -- especially in Eve, where the players drive the economy, a level playing field is everything. This is a big problem if CCP wants to make Eve more popular. Having new players moving into 0.0 feel that they not only have to fight the old boys' club, but also fight the developers themselves will put a serious damper on the growth of this game. Sure, the devs can do whatever they want, but if they want to retain their playerbase and attract more people, they certainly need to avoid making an impression that the game is inherently stacked against people who don't have CCP on their side. Proof of cheating or favortism isn't necessary, only the impression thereof.
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:55:00 - [607] Originally by: Lenutza Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. That "inside information" was sisi where existing T1 BPOs got converted to T2 2-3 weeks before the change happened on TQ. It's quite common to see changes on sisi before they hit TQ. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:55:00 - [608] Originally by: Malachon Draco hacker: "BoB are cheaters and dev alts" BoB:"ZOMG, you hacked my forum" random audience:"Hmmmm...." QFT Half Assed Rhymage
gaaksel The Legion.	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:56:00 - [609] Originally by: Helganstandt Originally by: gaaksel some good stuff I do agree with what you said, and it is pretty essential that the staff be able to play the game. But CCP needs to realize that they have to hire a dedicated group of people to monitor the in-game activities of the devs and GM's to make sure they aren't using their info or their powers to their advantage. This investigation is a step in the right direction, but it should be happening all the time. That's what the other MMO's do. While this certainly is a nice theory, how would said group monitor activities of devs / gms / whoever without having an extensive knowledge of the game mechanics themselves ? How do you get extensive knowledge of the game ? Aha :) So we would then have to hire a group to monitor the group that was supposed to monitor the devs which would then .... you get the idea. Just as in virtually every other company in the world at a certain point you have to rely on your employees and put trust into them. You can control the guy selling stuff in walmart, you can even possibly control the manager of the store, maybe you can even put someone in place who controls the people that control the store managers. However at one point you come to a position where direct control is no longer feasible. As such the higher you are in the ladder the less direct control is put on you and the more trust is put in you. Obviously the consequences for misbehaviour scale equally. If they guy that was supposed to sell stuff stole stuff from the store he could possibly still find a position at the next supermarket. I doubt the Store Manager would find another position though.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:57:00 - [610] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 31/01/2007 21:59:14 Originally by: Gungankllr stuff I think you're quite levelheaded and would consider you reasonable enough, even although you might not have gotten that picture of my opinion from forum exhanges during the last war. That's simply thedifference between me posting as character, or as part of a war, and me as player, not part of a war. If you want some information on some of the more 'interesting'bits of info in the blog this thread is related to then you can evemail me your questions. That goes for anyone else that knows me that is not part of BoB as well, you know who you are. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:58:00 - [611] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Malachon Draco No, I did not admit to having connections to a hacker. I have no clue about Kugutsumen. There are other sources than hackers you know...as BoB can undoubtedly tell you You deserve a swift kick in the balls. Are you like this in real life too? i feel sorry for you. Yes, in real life I have a wry, rather cynical sense of humor as well. Sue me. I'm talking about you getting pleasure out trying to ruin someone's life over a computergame. Go you! i admire the fact that you can sleep at night, same goes for all the other people that follow accusations like lemmings. People stopped thinking of the implications a long time ago. sad.
Razer Morphis Minmatar	Posted - 2007.01.31 21:58:00 - [612] Originally by: Qu'ut Nez shared accounts and ebaying, every major alliance does this Speak for yourself. What a wonderful shot on the foot. ---------------------- Here is some "EVE related content": FIX MY DAMN FORUM AVATAR PIC.
Razer Morphis Minmatar	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:01:00 - [613] Originally by: Sinlare I'm talking about you getting pleasure out trying to ruin someone's life over a computergame. Minesweeper is a computer game. EVE has too much money involved to be "just" that. If you don't agree, ill give you my bank account number so you can transfer the amount of money CCP gets from Eve subscriptions, since you're so "immune" to large sums of money. ---------------------- Here is some "EVE related content": FIX MY DAMN FORUM AVATAR PIC.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:03:00 - [614] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Malachon Draco No, I did not admit to having connections to a hacker. I have no clue about Kugutsumen. There are other sources than hackers you know...as BoB can undoubtedly tell you You deserve a swift kick in the balls. Are you like this in real life too? i feel sorry for you. Yes, in real life I have a wry, rather cynical sense of humor as well. Sue me. I'm talking about you getting pleasure out trying to ruin someone's life over a computergame. Go you! i admire the fact that you can sleep at night, same goes for all the other people that follow accusations like lemmings. People stopped thinking of the implications a long time ago. sad. For me personally, its all a joke really. Knew it for a while already, got upset then, no reason to get upset again. But I have friends leaving the game over this crap. That is the only thing that **es me off. So if you think I give **all about people getting punished for their own stupidity and arrogance, think again.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:03:00 - [615] Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Sinlare Originally by: Malachon Draco No, I did not admit to having connections to a hacker. I have no clue about Kugutsumen. There are other sources than hackers you know...as BoB can undoubtedly tell you You deserve a swift kick in the balls. Are you like this in real life too? i feel sorry for you. Yes, in real life I have a wry, rather cynical sense of humor as well. Sue me. I'm talking about you getting pleasure out trying to ruin someone's life over a computergame. Go you! i admire the fact that you can sleep at night, same goes for all the other people that follow accusations like lemmings. People stopped thinking of the implications a long time ago. sad. How is it anyone but the dev in questions's fault if he/she cheated and loses his/her job? There is no logic at all in what you say. Cheating isn't condoned for players, why the hell should it be condoned for developers or any other CCP Employee. If cheating occurred then something should be done about it. Pure and simple. I don't care what corporation or alliance is involved and anyone looking at this as purely BoB bashing is a muppet.
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:03:00 - [616] Originally by: Razer Morphis Originally by: Qu'ut Nez shared accounts and ebaying, every major alliance does this Speak for yourself. What a wonderful shot on the foot. Do not even try to act coy on this topic. Account sharing in particular is such an established tool when running capital fleets, most major players would have to rework their procedures if CCP struck down on it. Not that they'd need to manage capital fleets after that, as 50-60% of all dread pilots would be banned. ------ [SILD]
Mangold Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:05:00 - [617] Where are the mods? This thread is dead. A lock would be in order imho.
Sinlare Gallente Sinlare Auditorium	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:05:00 - [618] Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 22:06:17 Originally by: Malachon Draco For me personally, its all a joke really. Knew it for a while already, got upset then, no reason to get upset again. But I have friends leaving the game over this crap. That is the only thing that **es me off. So if you think I give all about people getting punished for their own stupidity and arrogance, think again. I hope i never have to meet you, you're the kind of person that likes this kind of stuff you get off on it. You won't stop until you see lives ruined because your virtual self didn't get his way. Sad little man, i hope someone comes along and does the same to you, or worse. Originally by:** Nekumi How is it anyone but the dev in questions's fault if he/she cheated and loses his/her job? There is no logic at all in what you say. Cheating isn't condoned for players, why the hell should it be condoned for developers or any other CCP Employee. If cheating occurred then something should be done about it. Pure and simple. I don't care what corporation or alliance is involved and anyone looking at this as purely BoB bashing is a muppet. No one has done anything wrong yet, atleast we do not know. The problem lies with the people throwing around baseless accusations. There are no facts, yet some people are willing to try and ruin a persons life because of rumours, and they enjoy doing so.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:07:00 - [619] Originally by: gaaksel While this certainly is a nice theory, how would said group monitor activities of devs / gms / whoever without having an extensive knowledge of the game mechanics themselves ? How do you get extensive knowledge of the game ? Aha :) So we would then have to hire a group to monitor the group that was supposed to monitor the devs which would then .... you get the idea. Just as in virtually every other company in the world at a certain point you have to rely on your employees and put trust into them. You can control the guy selling stuff in walmart, you can even possibly control the manager of the store, maybe you can even put someone in place who controls the people that control the store managers. However at one point you come to a position where direct control is no longer feasible. As such the higher you are in the ladder the less direct control is put on you and the more trust is put in you. Obviously the consequences for misbehaviour scale equally. If they guy that was supposed to sell stuff stole stuff from the store he could possibly still find a position at the next supermarket. I doubt the Store Manager would find another position though. The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, as well as search the internet daily for activity in third party public forums etc. CCP probably makes them sign a confidentiality agreement, so there's already an easy way in place to punish them by termination if they breach their contract. And that's their job. You have a team of them, and if you're worried about the monitoring team, guess what, they monitor each other as part of the list alongside the other characters they're supposed to monitor. And it's certainly easy enough to keep the anonymity because the monitoring team doesn't have to know which char belongs to which Dev/GM. They're just there to look for misconduct. Yes, there will still be ways to exploit, you can't account for everything. But overall it acts as a deterrent because when you play if you're a GM or a Dev, you know that it's likely someone is watching you. Any foul play can be dealt with in whatever way they see fit. And the best part is, when someone comes whining to the forums about dev or GM misconduct, CCP can just say "We have a team dedicated to this, if you have a complaint email our monitoring team so they can deal with it". It seems like a good idea to me...
Hashi Lebwohl Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:08:00 - [620] Schadenfreude Its a German word, for those that do not know, of taking enjoyment at the misfortune of others. It is not completely surprising that BoB, having indulged in Schadenfreude on these forums directed at their opponents, are the subject of it here. But these are serious allegations directed at CCP so let's not get carried away in the hyperbole. Ask yourself do you really want to hurt CCP to get at BoB? Enjoy your Schadenfreude but support CCP in their effort to investigate.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:10:00 - [621] Originally by: Sinlare Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 22:04:53 Edited by: Sinlare on 31/01/2007 22:03:34 Originally by: Malachon Draco For me personally, its all a joke really. Knew it for a while already, got upset then, no reason to get upset again. But I have friends leaving the game over this crap. That is the only thing that **es me off. So if you think I give all about people getting punished for their own stupidity and arrogance, think again. I hope i never have to meet you, you're the kind of person that likes this kind of stuff you get off on it. You won't stop until you see lives ruined because your virtual self didn't get his way. Sad little man, i hope someone comes along and does the same to you, or worse. Originally by:** Nekumi How is it anyone but the dev in questions's fault if he/she cheated and loses his/her job? There is no logic at all in what you say. Cheating isn't condoned for players, why the hell should it be condoned for developers or any other CCP Employee. If cheating occurred then something should be done about it. Pure and simple. I don't care what corporation or alliance is involved and anyone looking at this as purely BoB bashing is a muppet. No one has done anything wrong yet, atleast we do not know. The problem lies with the people throwing around baseless accusations. There are no facts, yet some people are willing to try and ruin a persons life because of rumours. Whatever you say hunny. I just think people who break the rules and thus ruin this game for thousands should be punished. If that makes me a bad person in your eyes, I guess I'll have to live with that.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:10:00 - [622] Originally by: Sinlare No one has done anything wrong yet, atleast we do not know. The problem lies with the people throwing around baseless accusations. There are no facts, yet some people are willing to try and ruin a persons life because of rumours. How is your assumption that someone will lose their job, have their life ruined over baseless accusations any worse than someone assuming the guy in question did it. It is baseless and false and your posts are worthless dribble.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:12:00 - [623] "Spawning T2 BPOs is a blind accusation invented in this thread." Precisely, which is why i'd like to see it addressed. Going any further beyond that we're back to the "how does one prove they've been living a honest life" problem. "If we want to play the "ill-gotten gains" game, you could just as well get isk from conveniently announced Serpentis events, then buy the BPOs on the open market. But that's pure speculation." The event staff has strict limits on the rewards level they are allowed to supply the players with. Nowhere near cost of a BPO, let alone multiple 'prints. So that's hopefully one speculation that can be put to rest. "I repeat myself, but I'm not faulting BoB for using shared accounts and ebaying, every major alliance does this, but I'm definately faulting a dev for being actively involved with it." This is pretty much my issue with the whole thing. At the bottom of it we have a guy who is posting things that cannot be really proven one way or the other -- they may be true, they may be false, they may be combination of truth and lies and things taken out of context... i don't have access to verify it one way or the other. Still, he's doing it to both get paid ISK and as part of blackmail attempt for in-game gains so that's hardly case of unbiased and uninvolved reporter. But some people grab this **** and indiscriminately smear CCP with it anyway because well, there's BoB involved and everyone knows BoB cheats and haxxors and lies... so clearly, it must be all true, right? mind boggles, tbh :\|
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:12:00 - [624] Malachon Draco, I agree. Also people who prejudge the evidence and slander the people involved. We don't have the results of the investigation yet. So any namecalling about BoB or CCP is predjudging the evidence. //Maya
Nidrian Gallente Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:13:00 - [625] Edited by: Nidrian on 31/01/2007 22:14:17 Nail them down and do it fast! It's a shame... After 3 Years of EVE - this **** is incredible. Give me the fun back pls.
Jelek Coro Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:13:00 - [626] Originally by: Lenutza Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case, with the large numbers of deleted posts and PMs involving @ccp email addresses. This is a huge problem. You cannot run a MMOG this way -- especially in Eve, where the players drive the economy, a level playing field is everything. Uneven playing field? Older characters with more skill, or just more skill in general? It's not like their are speed hacks UO style around now is it.. Buying up bpos that were converted into t2 versions..... sisi ftw Dumping products on market? Hello? Common sense to dump stuff when any one worth their salt would try to invent one of the most profitable t2 bpos!!!!! Thinking is hacking!! omg!! Bob are uber coz devs help them!!! Or is it that others are just simply jealous because they... erm, suck? CCP do excellent work and have an excellent game only spoiled by immature give it to me now brats who can't face the fact that they aren't really very good....
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:15:00 - [627] Originally by: Lenutza Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. This was a mistake, and a bad one, ill give you that Quote: Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. If you logged into sisi, and you had one of these, you woulda have noticed it turned into tech II on the test server Quote: Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. This is just a smart biz move, and I know ALOT of t2 owners who did the same thing, they dropped all thier t2 bpo's that they would not use for personal use when invention was announced, and planned to buy them back after kali and invention hit. Quote: And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case, with the large numbers of deleted posts and PMs involving @ccp email addresses. This is a huge problem. You cannot run a MMOG this way -- especially in Eve, where the players drive the economy, a level playing field is everything. There are Devs in RA, ASCN, D2 and a few others afaik, and I think kieron posted the same thing a few pages back. There may even be a dev in goon, whos to know? In fact, didnt D2 find BoB's spy because they had an admin of an offical website, owned by CCP (the german site) match IP's or soemthing? Its not just BoB. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:15:00 - [628] Originally by: Lenutza Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. This was a mistake, and a bad one, ill give you that Quote: Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. If you logged into sisi, and you had one of these, you woulda have noticed it turned into tech II on the test server Quote: Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. This is just a smart biz move, and I know ALOT of t2 owners who did the same thing, they dropped all thier t2 bpo's that they would not use for personal use when invention was announced, and planned to buy them back after kali and invention hit. Quote: And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case, with the large numbers of deleted posts and PMs involving @ccp email addresses. This is a huge problem. You cannot run a MMOG this way -- especially in Eve, where the players drive the economy, a level playing field is everything. There are Devs in RA, ASCN, D2 and a few others afaik, and I think kieron posted the same thing a few pages back. There may even be a dev in goon, whos to know? In fact, didnt D2 find BoB's spy because they had an admin of an offical website, owned by CCP (the german site) match IP's or soemthing? Its not just BoB. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-

kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:18:00 - [629] Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online


kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:18:00 - [630] Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:19:00 - [631] Well, it's nice to know that I'm paying oodles of bucks each month so some CCP devs can play the game they made with the rest of us and make the chances of me scoring a T2 BPO even that much more slim. Then, when they get tired or outted or whatever they can just hand them over to their buddies who did absolutely nothin' to earn 'em. Wake up kieron! You can figure out the game to your heart's content from the test server or from player feedback. You don't need to be in game hoarding all the T2 BPOs from the PAYING SUBSCRIBERS to know what to code next and blah blah blah. There's a reason the SEC was created here in the States to keep people from profiting off of inside knowledge of a company no one else has....same thing applies to devs playing the game. It's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST! Let's say I was a hunter and it was deer season. I sure as hell wouldn't pay some guy big bucks to hunt on his lease (ranch) if he was gonna hunt right alongside and make sure that he got all the best deer....I'd tell him to go screw himself. Which is exactly the same thing I think a lot of players are going to say to CCP..... I mean, seriously, is CCP run by a bunch of children? Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:19:00 - [632] Well, it's nice to know that I'm paying oodles of bucks each month so some CCP devs can play the game they made with the rest of us and make the chances of me scoring a T2 BPO even that much more slim. Then, when they get tired or outted or whatever they can just hand them over to their buddies who did absolutely nothin' to earn 'em. Wake up kieron! You can figure out the game to your heart's content from the test server or from player feedback. You don't need to be in game hoarding all the T2 BPOs from the PAYING SUBSCRIBERS to know what to code next and blah blah blah. There's a reason the SEC was created here in the States to keep people from profiting off of inside knowledge of a company no one else has....same thing applies to devs playing the game. It's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST! Let's say I was a hunter and it was deer season. I sure as hell wouldn't pay some guy big bucks to hunt on his lease (ranch) if he was gonna hunt right alongside and make sure that he got all the best deer....I'd tell him to go screw himself. Which is exactly the same thing I think a lot of players are going to say to CCP..... I mean, seriously, is CCP run by a bunch of children? Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Trom Zatagnia Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:20:00 - [633] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. Kieron, thank you for enlightening us about some of the checks on devs/GMs. Could it be possible to get if not a complete list, a broad overview of the check/balances in place for devs/GMs/ISD? Thanks.
Trom Zatagnia Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:20:00 - [634] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. Kieron, thank you for enlightening us about some of the checks on devs/GMs. Could it be possible to get if not a complete list, a broad overview of the check/balances in place for devs/GMs/ISD? Thanks.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:22:00 - [635] The worst part about this entire scenario... Is that the people who hate EVE will be raging on the internet boards. Whether or not these allegations are ture. About how CCP allows corrupt Devs to modify the game in the favour of one alliance. When the big selling point of EVE is that you may eventually one day, conquer or run your own section of space. This possibility alone should have persuaded CCP To ban Devs from playing in Customer Alliances. Play the game, yes, just not involved in something as Epic as galactic domination. Diablo 2 had a dev write in code so that only he could make the rarest items spawn. So he could sell them on ebay. Corrupt Devs have struck before, and will strike again. CCP Should have protected the credibility of itself, and it's creation by prohibiting Devs from participating in or affecting in game customer alliance politics. This really is a dark blotch on EVE, and CCP's Image to potential customers. I for one will be watching this closely. Hoping that those responsible are brought to justice. Which ever way the veldspar crumbles. Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:22:00 - [636] The worst part about this entire scenario... Is that the people who hate EVE will be raging on the internet boards. Whether or not these allegations are ture. About how CCP allows corrupt Devs to modify the game in the favour of one alliance. When the big selling point of EVE is that you may eventually one day, conquer or run your own section of space. This possibility alone should have persuaded CCP To ban Devs from playing in Customer Alliances. Play the game, yes, just not involved in something as Epic as galactic domination. Diablo 2 had a dev write in code so that only he could make the rarest items spawn. So he could sell them on ebay. Corrupt Devs have struck before, and will strike again. CCP Should have protected the credibility of itself, and it's creation by prohibiting Devs from participating in or affecting in game customer alliance politics. This really is a dark blotch on EVE, and CCP's Image to potential customers. I for one will be watching this closely. Hoping that those responsible are brought to justice. Which ever way the veldspar crumbles. Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:23:00 - [637] Edited by: Helganstandt on 31/01/2007 22:28:10 Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. Edit: Sorry, this sounded weird, what I meant to say is that not just saying you're investigating it, but if we knew whether you guys are constantly investigating would be a good comfort. Not just when there are allegations made.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:23:00 - [638] Edited by: Helganstandt on 31/01/2007 22:28:10 Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. Edit: Sorry, this sounded weird, what I meant to say is that not just saying you're investigating it, but if we knew whether you guys are constantly investigating would be a good comfort. Not just when there are allegations made.
Cassiuss Minmatar STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:27:00 - [639] I remember when somebody from ASCN made this allegation(Dev's in BoB), and he was flamed to sh*t by BoBs forum elite. Now BoBs stance is well the T2 is legit. Nothing underhanded was happeneing, HAHAHAHA. ROFL! looks good on all of you. I love your backpeddling, "ZOMG this is getting personal, etc etc" I cant wait until the day comes when Delve is in ashes. So it looks as if BoBs leadership, have been hiding this for awhile now. This is worse than anything else, personally, if I was a BoB member Id remove the leadership. I wonder how long this has been going on for? I wonder how much isk has been pilfered. During Kali, didnt BOB/Delve also get new 10/10 complexes whilst the rest of EVE didnt? OMG the tinfoil! Kugut, I owe you a bazillion isk. CCP will do the right thing here. I am sure of it. Cassiuss, STK-S Recruitment Officer
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:27:00 - [640] Seems like CCP are more interested in marketing their product to communists in China, wearing kilts and acting like it's cool for Icelanders to do it, drinking copious amounts of beer, and backing up the idea that devs playing a game in which people pay a monthly subscription isn't a conflict of interest. Maybe if they spent a smidgen less time on all of the previous listed items they'd have some time left over to at least OCCASIONALLY check in on their other employees..... Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Cassiuss Minmatar STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:27:00 - [641] I remember when somebody from ASCN made this allegation(Dev's in BoB), and he was flamed to sh*t by BoBs forum elite. Now BoBs stance is well the T2 is legit. Nothing underhanded was happeneing, HAHAHAHA. ROFL! looks good on all of you. I love your backpeddling, "ZOMG this is getting personal, etc etc" I cant wait until the day comes when Delve is in ashes. So it looks as if BoBs leadership, have been hiding this for awhile now. This is worse than anything else, personally, if I was a BoB member Id remove the leadership. I wonder how long this has been going on for? I wonder how much isk has been pilfered. During Kali, didnt BOB/Delve also get new 10/10 complexes whilst the rest of EVE didnt? OMG the tinfoil! Kugut, I owe you a bazillion isk. CCP will do the right thing here. I am sure of it. Cassiuss, STK-S Recruitment Officer
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:27:00 - [642] Seems like CCP are more interested in marketing their product to communists in China, wearing kilts and acting like it's cool for Icelanders to do it, drinking copious amounts of beer, and backing up the idea that devs playing a game in which people pay a monthly subscription isn't a conflict of interest. Maybe if they spent a smidgen less time on all of the previous listed items they'd have some time left over to at least OCCASIONALLY check in on their other employees..... Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:30:00 - [643] Originally by: j0sephine This is pretty much my issue with the whole thing. At the bottom of it we have a guy who is posting things that cannot be really proven one way or the other -- they may be true, they may be false, they may be combination of truth and lies and things taken out of context... i don't have access to verify it one way or the other. Still, he's doing it to both get paid ISK and as part of blackmail attempt for in-game gains so that's hardly case of unbiased and uninvolved reporter. But some people grab this ** and indiscriminately smear CCP with it anyway because well, there's BoB involved and everyone knows BoB cheats and haxxors and lies... so clearly, it must be all true, right? Oh, I'm not giving kub-whatever credit for honorable motives, he's in it for laughs and drama. But they may be false, they may be true...you guys have confirmed many of the leaked things that were benign and denied the leaked things that were damning. Could very well be true, but loses a lot of credibillity based on convenience alone, you know what I mean? And you can dance around the topic of account sharing and ebaying all you want, I can't prove a thing, I don't have to and I guess I don't really want to. But all you alliance heads and capital fleet managers know just as well as me. You'd never admit it on the forum and I don't fault you for that one bit. It's good that innocent whistling doesn't show on the internet, but this piece of dirty laundry needs way more air than vague hypotheses on how the super advanced algorithms of those magic T2 BPOs can be tweaked by some shifty sinister doer of evil. I swear, if you want to blind the average Eve player, just tell him a myth about BPOs. He'll forget about the actual issues in no time. (the rant about bpos is not directed at you, but all the conspiracy theorists in this thread who want to believe that bob's win button is an actual button) ------ [SILD]**
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:30:00 - [644] Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. I think you need to read the OP. Quote: CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. It clearly states they have, and will continue to investigate.... People, like yourself, just assume the sky is falling, and are reading way to far into it. Do you really think there is no form of monitoring or recording or every action a dev/gm/isd member takes? Does anyone really think that? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Qu'ut Nez Minmatar Norges Sildesalgslag	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:30:00 - [645] Originally by: j0sephine This is pretty much my issue with the whole thing. At the bottom of it we have a guy who is posting things that cannot be really proven one way or the other -- they may be true, they may be false, they may be combination of truth and lies and things taken out of context... i don't have access to verify it one way or the other. Still, he's doing it to both get paid ISK and as part of blackmail attempt for in-game gains so that's hardly case of unbiased and uninvolved reporter. But some people grab this ** and indiscriminately smear CCP with it anyway because well, there's BoB involved and everyone knows BoB cheats and haxxors and lies... so clearly, it must be all true, right? Oh, I'm not giving kub-whatever credit for honorable motives, he's in it for laughs and drama. But they may be false, they may be true...you guys have confirmed many of the leaked things that were benign and denied the leaked things that were damning. Could very well be true, but loses a lot of credibillity based on convenience alone, you know what I mean? And you can dance around the topic of account sharing and ebaying all you want, I can't prove a thing, I don't have to and I guess I don't really want to. But all you alliance heads and capital fleet managers know just as well as me. You'd never admit it on the forum and I don't fault you for that one bit. It's good that innocent whistling doesn't show on the internet, but this piece of dirty laundry needs way more air than vague hypotheses on how the super advanced algorithms of those magic T2 BPOs can be tweaked by some shifty sinister doer of evil. I swear, if you want to blind the average Eve player, just tell him a myth about BPOs. He'll forget about the actual issues in no time. (the rant about bpos is not directed at you, but all the conspiracy theorists in this thread who want to believe that bob's win button is an actual button) ------ [SILD]**
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:30:00 - [646] Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. I think you need to read the OP. Quote: CCP is aware there are members of the community concerned over allegations of Dev misconduct coming from a third party message board and those community members are intent upon getting 'their story out to the people'. CCP has investigated, and will continue to investigate allegations of misconduct and take actions accordingly. This instance is no different from past investigations that have resulted in actions ranging from permanent game bans to termination of employment. It clearly states they have, and will continue to investigate.... People, like yourself, just assume the sky is falling, and are reading way to far into it. Do you really think there is no form of monitoring or recording or every action a dev/gm/isd member takes? Does anyone really think that? __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:33:00 - [647] Edited by: Helganstandt on 31/01/2007 22:33:15 Originally by: Popsikle I think you need to read the OP. Yeah, sorry, I clarified what I meant to say in an edit to that post. But the fact remains that they're not doing it often enough, otherwise these allegations would be a non issue. Quality monitoring is one thing to make sure the GM's are doing their job. Making sure that the GM and dev's characters are still in line is another story. And according to Kieron's post, it seems like they do that on a regular basis. I wish they had said so at the beginning though. So anyway, since my questions been answered, I suppose I don't need to reply anymore. Thanks again for the response Kieron.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:33:00 - [648] Edited by: Helganstandt on 31/01/2007 22:33:15 Originally by: Popsikle I think you need to read the OP. Yeah, sorry, I clarified what I meant to say in an edit to that post. But the fact remains that they're not doing it often enough, otherwise these allegations would be a non issue. Quality monitoring is one thing to make sure the GM's are doing their job. Making sure that the GM and dev's characters are still in line is another story. And according to Kieron's post, it seems like they do that on a regular basis. I wish they had said so at the beginning though. So anyway, since my questions been answered, I suppose I don't need to reply anymore. Thanks again for the response Kieron.

kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:34:00 - [649] Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. The team has gone off-shift a number of hours ago, so there are no further updates. I should have more information tomorrow. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online


kieron	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:34:00 - [650] Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. The team has gone off-shift a number of hours ago, so there are no further updates. I should have more information tomorrow. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:36:00 - [651] I trust in CCP hunting any offenders down. They've done it with a lot of macro miners and they'll do it again. It's a real shame some people take a game so serious, they risk their RL job over a game. Those guys don't even deserve our anger, just our pitty. Go to a shrink or something! I just hope it doesn't hurt the game any more, 'cause I love this game, and I hate seeing some egoistic a******* ruining game fairness and the fun of others. I hope CCP makes a strong statement and brings those offenders down fast _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
MYSTERY ALT	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:36:00 - [652] People need to chill out a little. Dev's need to be involved in the game and should be able to play it with the subscribers, I mean, this is a good thingàwhat other games do this? Saying that they should only play on a test server is stupid as they won't experience any of the situations we all do in EVE and know where the problems are, or how to better improve the game. This isnÆt WoW, itÆs an entirely different type of game. I think people are just surprised. People know of rumours involving dev's playing on Tranquillity, but they are not sure how they actually go about doing it and itÆs just a shock for them to hear that they play the game like everyone else. If something was said, explaining how it works and why they do it people would settle down, but as of now its all a big mystery to everyone, thus drama. Dev misconduct needs to be more closely watched out for, but seriously, they are not out there spawning T2 BPOÆs, Titans and isk all while teleporting around the galaxy offlining enemy towers for BoB.
R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:36:00 - [653] I trust in CCP hunting any offenders down. They've done it with a lot of macro miners and they'll do it again. It's a real shame some people take a game so serious, they risk their RL job over a game. Those guys don't even deserve our anger, just our pitty. Go to a shrink or something! I just hope it doesn't hurt the game any more, 'cause I love this game, and I hate seeing some egoistic a******* ruining game fairness and the fun of others. I hope CCP makes a strong statement and brings those offenders down fast _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
MYSTERY ALT	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:36:00 - [654] People need to chill out a little. Dev's need to be involved in the game and should be able to play it with the subscribers, I mean, this is a good thingàwhat other games do this? Saying that they should only play on a test server is stupid as they won't experience any of the situations we all do in EVE and know where the problems are, or how to better improve the game. This isnÆt WoW, itÆs an entirely different type of game. I think people are just surprised. People know of rumours involving dev's playing on Tranquillity, but they are not sure how they actually go about doing it and itÆs just a shock for them to hear that they play the game like everyone else. If something was said, explaining how it works and why they do it people would settle down, but as of now its all a big mystery to everyone, thus drama. Dev misconduct needs to be more closely watched out for, but seriously, they are not out there spawning T2 BPOÆs, Titans and isk all while teleporting around the galaxy offlining enemy towers for BoB.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:37:00 - [655] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. However big this team is, it can't possible ensure GMs and developers don't use their knowledge of EVE (in whatever areas, on whatever level) and other information picked up around CCP to gain an advantage in-game, with their characters. The possible advantages from simply from having access to even basic data are staggering. Are you saying the designers of the exploration system DON'T have an advantage over other players in that field, one which controls the materials needed for access to the incredibly lucrative field of invention? How about the person who helped upload all the different signatures to the DB? Knowing which signatures belong to which spectrum would be a big help in finding the more profitable ones faster. It's a completely ridiculous situation.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:37:00 - [656] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. However big this team is, it can't possible ensure GMs and developers don't use their knowledge of EVE (in whatever areas, on whatever level) and other information picked up around CCP to gain an advantage in-game, with their characters. The possible advantages from simply from having access to even basic data are staggering. Are you saying the designers of the exploration system DON'T have an advantage over other players in that field, one which controls the materials needed for access to the incredibly lucrative field of invention? How about the person who helped upload all the different signatures to the DB? Knowing which signatures belong to which spectrum would be a big help in finding the more profitable ones faster. It's a completely ridiculous situation.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:38:00 - [657] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. The team has gone off-shift a number of hours ago, so there are no further updates. I should have more information tomorrow. Dont worry, some of us are on YOUR side. The side that doesnt include being a BoB fan, or a BoB flamer, the side that knows CCP does thier job well, and the best they can, and they FIRE people who cheat while a dev. Dont let the forum snip let you think that the whole world is against you guys ;P __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Trom Zatagnia Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:38:00 - [658] Edited by: Trom Zatagnia on 31/01/2007 22:38:24 Originally by: kieron This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. Unfortunately, this is because BoB has a reputation, especially within CAOD, of being jerks. Some of the anti-BoB would be reduced if their behavior in this forum was a little more pleasant. EDIT: However, some of the anti-BoB sentiment is because people genuinely dislike BoB, for a multitude of reasons. Of course, none of this in any way represents the opinion or stance of my alliance or my corp.
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:38:00 - [659] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. The team has gone off-shift a number of hours ago, so there are no further updates. I should have more information tomorrow. Dont worry, some of us are on YOUR side. The side that doesnt include being a BoB fan, or a BoB flamer, the side that knows CCP does thier job well, and the best they can, and they FIRE people who cheat while a dev. Dont let the forum snip let you think that the whole world is against you guys ;P __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Trom Zatagnia Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:38:00 - [660] Edited by: Trom Zatagnia on 31/01/2007 22:38:24 Originally by: kieron This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. Unfortunately, this is because BoB has a reputation, especially within CAOD, of being jerks. Some of the anti-BoB would be reduced if their behavior in this forum was a little more pleasant. EDIT: However, some of the anti-BoB sentiment is because people genuinely dislike BoB, for a multitude of reasons. Of course, none of this in any way represents the opinion or stance of my alliance or my corp.
Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:39:00 - [661] Originally by: Trom Zatagnia Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. Kieron, thank you for enlightening us about some of the checks on devs/GMs. Could it be possible to get if not a complete list, a broad overview of the check/balances in place for devs/GMs/ISD? Thanks. Everybody exept the ones doing the monitoring should know as little as possible about the tools to monitor employees. Remember, the more you know about what's monitored and how its monitored, the easier it's to avoid getting cought... Yggdrassil
Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:39:00 - [662] Originally by: Trom Zatagnia Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt The monitoring is surprisingly simple. One guy with a full time job can monitor the chatlogs and forum posts of several GM's and Devs characters, etc. Oddly enough, the person you describe is the one of a couple staff members who are investigating the allegations. By the way, monitoring doesn't stop at reading chat logs or forum posts, it also involves reviewing tool usage and server commands, account activity and much more. The 'Internal Affairs' team also reviews volunteer activity. Kieron, thank you for enlightening us about some of the checks on devs/GMs. Could it be possible to get if not a complete list, a broad overview of the check/balances in place for devs/GMs/ISD? Thanks. Everybody exept the ones doing the monitoring should know as little as possible about the tools to monitor employees. Remember, the more you know about what's monitored and how its monitored, the easier it's to avoid getting cought... Yggdrassil
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:40:00 - [663] Originally by: Popsikle It clearly states they have, and will continue to investigate.... People, like yourself, just assume the sky is falling, and are reading way to far into it. Do you really think there is no form of monitoring or recording or every action a dev/gm/isd member takes? Does anyone really think that? While they may have, it does not speak of the efficiency or quality of that team. Until we are shown clearly that this type of thing is monitored closely and works people will always doubt whether it's the case or not. If this has happened in BoB, who is to say it hasn't or isn't happening in every other corporation and alliance with a CCP employee involved. If culpability is found in this case (events which happened over a year ago) what exactly is that meant to show us outside of the fact that if someone brings transgressions to light they'll be dealt with then and only then. My problem in all of this, is that whilst I have no problem with any CCP employee playing and enjoying this game. If there is no oversight and or protections for normal players against manipulations or at least oversight by CCP then abuses will have happened and will continue to happen.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:40:00 - [664] Originally by: Popsikle It clearly states they have, and will continue to investigate.... People, like yourself, just assume the sky is falling, and are reading way to far into it. Do you really think there is no form of monitoring or recording or every action a dev/gm/isd member takes? Does anyone really think that? While they may have, it does not speak of the efficiency or quality of that team. Until we are shown clearly that this type of thing is monitored closely and works people will always doubt whether it's the case or not. If this has happened in BoB, who is to say it hasn't or isn't happening in every other corporation and alliance with a CCP employee involved. If culpability is found in this case (events which happened over a year ago) what exactly is that meant to show us outside of the fact that if someone brings transgressions to light they'll be dealt with then and only then. My problem in all of this, is that whilst I have no problem with any CCP employee playing and enjoying this game. If there is no oversight and or protections for normal players against manipulations or at least oversight by CCP then abuses will have happened and will continue to happen.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:41:00 - [665] Kruugore, there are plenty in this thread who hate Eve for that matter. And the way the market works, the only way not to affect it is not to play. And devs out of touch with the game do a lot of damage, rapidly. You're taking the word of a hacker over that of CCP by default. Liquid Vision, so basically you want to change the T2 lottery? To skew the possibilities? REGARDLESS what it would be done for, it'd be wrong. Do you think that the T2 market should be manipulated without the devs having first have evidence of it? That seems exceedingly odd. And no, trying to equate the role of the SEC to that of a single company breaks down. Further, the SEC is one model - and in many ways a bad one - of how to protect the market. Devs who are out of touch are ten times the threat, quite simply. Your lack of basic knowledge about how to make software shows. //Maya
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:41:00 - [666] Kruugore, there are plenty in this thread who hate Eve for that matter. And the way the market works, the only way not to affect it is not to play. And devs out of touch with the game do a lot of damage, rapidly. You're taking the word of a hacker over that of CCP by default. Liquid Vision, so basically you want to change the T2 lottery? To skew the possibilities? REGARDLESS what it would be done for, it'd be wrong. Do you think that the T2 market should be manipulated without the devs having first have evidence of it? That seems exceedingly odd. And no, trying to equate the role of the SEC to that of a single company breaks down. Further, the SEC is one model - and in many ways a bad one - of how to protect the market. Devs who are out of touch are ten times the threat, quite simply. Your lack of basic knowledge about how to make software shows. //Maya
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:42:00 - [667] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. The team has gone off-shift a number of hours ago, so there are no further updates. I should have more information tomorrow. You're probably right. I admit I'm mainly thinking from my point of view on this, where based on the posts before your most recent ones, I basically concluded you had little or no monitoring process. That was based on the fact that all that was mentioned was that it was being "investigated", almost like it was a one-time deal. I obviously can't speak for anyone though. So thanks again for the reply. You at least restored faith in one player if that means anything....
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:42:00 - [668] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt Is that their fulltime job though, or do they have other responsibilities? By the way, I'm glad that you do have people working on it. It just seems like if you guys have a team dedicated to monitoring Dev and GM activities, this situation could have easily been diffused by saying so at the start of this thread to put people at ease. This would be a full-time position. Almost 200 Devs and over 250 volunteers is a lot of oversight and to devote less than full attention would not do the position justice. As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. The team has gone off-shift a number of hours ago, so there are no further updates. I should have more information tomorrow. You're probably right. I admit I'm mainly thinking from my point of view on this, where based on the posts before your most recent ones, I basically concluded you had little or no monitoring process. That was based on the fact that all that was mentioned was that it was being "investigated", almost like it was a one-time deal. I obviously can't speak for anyone though. So thanks again for the reply. You at least restored faith in one player if that means anything....
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:43:00 - [669] Originally by: Aertuun However big this team is, it can't possible ensure GMs and developers don't use their knowledge of EVE (in whatever areas, on whatever level) and other information picked up around CCP to gain an advantage in-game, with their characters. The possible advantages from simply from having access to even basic data are staggering. Are you saying the designers of the exploration system DON'T have an advantage over other players in that field, one which controls the materials needed for access to the incredibly lucrative field of invention? How about the person who helped upload all the different signatures to the DB? Knowing which signatures belong to which spectrum would be a big help in finding the more profitable ones faster. It's a completely ridiculous situation. Spend time on the test server, please. Stop making yourself sound dumb. If you hop on the test server for any amount of time you will have a good portion of the information the devs have. Considering you can get everything you ever wanted on the test server, and play around with it, including invention, exploration, capital ship building, new bpo's, tech II bpos, whatever you want... If you really want to stop unfair game play, get rid of test. If you want to get an edge over the rest of people playing eve, spend some time on the test server... then come back here and say how valuable that information really is... Its not private, you can gather all the same info on the test server yourself. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Popsikle Caffeine Commodities Company	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:43:00 - [670] Originally by: Aertuun However big this team is, it can't possible ensure GMs and developers don't use their knowledge of EVE (in whatever areas, on whatever level) and other information picked up around CCP to gain an advantage in-game, with their characters. The possible advantages from simply from having access to even basic data are staggering. Are you saying the designers of the exploration system DON'T have an advantage over other players in that field, one which controls the materials needed for access to the incredibly lucrative field of invention? How about the person who helped upload all the different signatures to the DB? Knowing which signatures belong to which spectrum would be a big help in finding the more profitable ones faster. It's a completely ridiculous situation. Spend time on the test server, please. Stop making yourself sound dumb. If you hop on the test server for any amount of time you will have a good portion of the information the devs have. Considering you can get everything you ever wanted on the test server, and play around with it, including invention, exploration, capital ship building, new bpo's, tech II bpos, whatever you want... If you really want to stop unfair game play, get rid of test. If you want to get an edge over the rest of people playing eve, spend some time on the test server... then come back here and say how valuable that information really is... Its not private, you can gather all the same info on the test server yourself. __________________________________________ -= We Fly for our people =- -= I fly for Blood =-
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:49:00 - [671] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. What do you expect ? They have got away with some very serious stuff in the past ( i have been a witness to that and person in question actually confirmed to me him doing naughty stuff ) , when things liek that keep adding wether it be with rumours true or false theres no stopping . Its human nature . I hope you get it sorted cuz i can imagine you guys dont feel happy at all at this moment . I also do hope its smoke without a fire for EvE's sake . _____________ Im back !
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:49:00 - [672] I have allways liked BoB, even when I was in ASCN and at war with them. They where fierce but honest fighters. They where always courteous and great guys, and their brotherhood enthralled me completely. Thats why I joined for a short time. But my PvP stinks compared to them, and so they where in a complete different league then me, so I pulled out. But I think I can say that BoB would never be up for cheating. It is against everything they stands for! BoB have to much honour to sink down as far as cheating. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:49:00 - [673] Originally by: kieron Originally by: Helganstandt A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. What do you expect ? They have got away with some very serious stuff in the past ( i have been a witness to that and person in question actually confirmed to me him doing naughty stuff ) , when things liek that keep adding wether it be with rumours true or false theres no stopping . Its human nature . I hope you get it sorted cuz i can imagine you guys dont feel happy at all at this moment . I also do hope its smoke without a fire for EvE's sake . _____________ Im back !
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:49:00 - [674] I have allways liked BoB, even when I was in ASCN and at war with them. They where fierce but honest fighters. They where always courteous and great guys, and their brotherhood enthralled me completely. Thats why I joined for a short time. But my PvP stinks compared to them, and so they where in a complete different league then me, so I pulled out. But I think I can say that BoB would never be up for cheating. It is against everything they stands for! BoB have to much honour to sink down as far as cheating. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:51:00 - [675] Originally by: j0sephine "WoW, EQ, DAOC Say what you like about those games but they are among the most successful MMORPG's around." I was under impression WoW staff can play on live servers -- i recall some of their 'community representatives', the community manager and (can be mistaken here) 1-2 devs mention their live server experiences at one point or another. Besides, how exactly would the company check if they don't have account used to play the game on live server? The EQ, i think it was mentioned in this thread at least the GMs were allowed to have regular characters in the game, if just on different shards. DAOC i have no idea, so won't comment. Community managers play WoW, not devs, at least from what I recall. Originally by: j0sephine "but it seems to me that you are a member of an alliance who has directly benifitted from Dev inovolement." Then perhaps am in better position to speak about the whole ordeal than someone who has no first-hand knowledge regarding it? ^^ or in other words, being in the alliance in question i may have slightly better idea how much of the hearsay is just that. Then again i could of course be lying through my teeth. Really? So are you now, officially and on behalf of BoB, denying that a dev was ever head of logistiics of your capital fleet? Please enlighten me with your superior knowledge o great oracle. Originally by: j0sephine "I'm not asking for proof, I am asking for transparency." And i repeat, what exactly sort of transparency will be deemed sufficient, for people to believe that things are kept 100% fair? "Transparency" is a catch-all, but give me some specifics what --at least you personally-- would consider as 'good enough' assurance that devs are not providing people with favours that goes beyond what they can do as regular player. I believe I outlined in a previous post very specific questions that I wanted answered. Originally by: j0sephine "I am not asking them to prove anything," You are demanding 'transparency so we know they are not cheating'. It's a nice way to word it but again, it's not very different from me demanding "transparency" from you so i can determine you are not beating your wife. Not that am accusing you of anything or asking for a proof, am i? -.o It is a very different thing. A newspaper hasn't produced (albeit possibly illegally obtained) recordings of my wife calling the police saying that I was beating her. Originally by: j0sephine "What is good enough proof for you? A confession?" A hard evidence recorded in the server logs. In this particular case --given the accusations-- it would be either logs of the dev character spawning extra BPO's and passing them to their character (easy to track since tech.2 BPOs are supposed to be out there in limited amounts) ... or traces of tampering with the code that resulted in obtaining the BPOs (also easy to verify) Really, and is the player community supposed to obtain these records? Subpeona CCP? Sadly we must make due with the evidence we have. You are asking for proof that is effectively impossible to provide and trying to hide behind the "oh you can't produce it so it must not have happened." I'm sorry but folks from alliances with vested interest in a particular outcome are not the most reliable source. If you really wanted to get to the bottom of this you would be calling for full transparency as well. Originally by: j0sephine It's not a complicated case when you get to the bottom of it, there's just lot of rabblerabblerabble around it obfuscating it and blowing into what it could've been. Really? I think now that it has been picked up by Slashdot and is bound to get more press this is probably going to get blown up a lot bigger. Unfortunately in this case the detecitive is also the judge and the jury, excuse me if I am a bit suspicious.
Puke Skystalker Minmatar The Mystical Order	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:51:00 - [676] Originally by: Popsikle If you want to get an edge over the rest of people playing eve, spend some time on the test server... then come back here and say how valuable that information really is... Or (allegedly) you can.... Save yourself some hard graft and get yourself some "secret infos" from your favorite friendly insider
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:53:00 - [677] Originally by: Cassiuss if I was a BoB member Id remove the leadership. Was you char born with his head up his rear-end? Given where you have come from I think leadership is the last thing you can talk about. BoB has the best leaders in game, you show me in game a collection of CEOs who have achieved more. As for this ZOMG Dev in BoB I think keiron has summed that one up already. So continue with your little tirades, Love us or hate I could not care a less. meet us on the field ingame....... if you have the balls
acompton Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:53:00 - [678] Can we please stop the "KugutsGate" stuff and let CCP do their work and see what the results are. If the allegations about any unfair advantage were to prove true I am sure they will take appropriate action as they have in the past. They are not so stupid as to shoot themselves in the foot. To those posting to the effect of: "OMG I lost EvE because someone had a majik t-II blueprint machine" please get over yourselves.
Liquid Vision Caldari Liquid Research	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:59:00 - [679] Originally by: Maya Rkell Kruugore, there are plenty in this thread who hate Eve for that matter. And the way the market works, the only way not to affect it is not to play. And devs out of touch with the game do a lot of damage, rapidly. You're taking the word of a hacker over that of CCP by default. Liquid Vision, so basically you want to change the T2 lottery? To skew the possibilities? REGARDLESS what it would be done for, it'd be wrong. Do you think that the T2 market should be manipulated without the devs having first have evidence of it? That seems exceedingly odd. And no, trying to equate the role of the SEC to that of a single company breaks down. Further, the SEC is one model - and in many ways a bad one - of how to protect the market. Devs who are out of touch are ten times the threat, quite simply. Your lack of basic knowledge about how to make software shows. Where did I ever say I wanted to change how T2 BPOs were handed out? Your lack of English reading abilities shows. Obviously, I'd like the BPOs to be handed out at random to PAYING SUSCRIBERS and not people who make the game. Look, I don't think anyone is saying the devs shouldn't get to play their own game. I hope the devs play EVE to their hearts content and throw in a bunch more cool stuff. . .just not with me and the rest of the folks that pay them money every month. Go play in Jove space and stay there or go play on the test server or go make your own special little "EVE-Devs" server and have fun there. It might be different if we paid a one time purchase fee for the game and that was it. . .however, we don't. We're continually paying these folks to produce a fun and FAIR game for all of us and obviously that CANNOT be accomplished with devs playing amongst the masses. I mean, I always hear people defending devs on here like they're some sort of demigod race or a bunch of saints that would NEVER do anything wrong. Folks trot out the tired old "devs would never risk their livelihood over a game!" excuse without stopping to think about all the other people who throw their entire lives away each day for FAR FAR less. Devs are people and they're going to do stupid stuff and the inherent nature of humanity suggests that they, at some point in time whether consciously or not, are going to give an unfair bias to their friends and the people they play with in game. This, in turn, assures us that EVE is NOT a level playing field. I mean, it's inevitable right? CCP holds fanfests where players can interact and have fun with the employees and whatnot. . .they can get drunk together. . .plan the domination of EVE together....This holds true for other games such as WOW too. . .except for the fact that they don't actively support their devs playing in amongst their customers (to the best of my knowledge). I mean, I just know that if I personally had control over EVE and was playing in an alliance, I'd be tempted (to say the least) to at least spill the beans on stuff before everyone else knew and to help out my mates with things other folks didn't know. Kinda like bugs in the POS system, etc....And if I was a REALLY stupid dev I'd hoard up a bunch of T2 BPOs and give them all over to my buddies so they'd let me run their cap ship fleet. I mean, c'mon folks, these guys are guilty as sin. I don't like believing a hacker either, but after reading the evidence he has, listening to the weak attempts by BOB members to flame all those who thought there might be at least SOME credibility to the charges as Idiots, and taking into account the suspicious nature of past BOB/CCP events you know this stuff is true. Just like with Enron. . .ol' Ken Lay was out there saying everything was fine and to buy more stock and his little clones were lapping up every word and shouting down any naysayers. Little did we know the extent of the lies...and I'm afraid calling people Idiots and telling them to get out their tinfoil hat won't suffice anymore.... Thanks for finally giving me my damn picture!
Griefer Troll Troll Industries	Posted - 2007.01.31 22:59:00 - [680] Well, well, well, no surprises here then. No smoke without fire and all. Oh and also for a long time now: DB Preacher doth always protest too much! Although no official conclusion has been reached yet according to Kieron, I propose a motion for shenanigans.
Deus Ex'Machina Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:01:00 - [681] Edited by: Deus Ex''Machina on 31/01/2007 22:59:25 The presence of CCP employs inside the game is simply sickening. I don't have doubts that evidence against GM's that 'misconduct' have been shown in this very thread and yet the fact they are still there, employs that know the inner workings of the game and that can fly in various invulnerable ships, is proof that CCP don't care for the stability and balance of the game. The presence of GM stations and other crap like that is simply revolting. No, CCP employs should not , under any circumstances , be able to interact with the server as a character flying in a ship. This leaves way TOO much room for cheating on their part in favor of their friends or themselves. Chat logs are irrelevant, you do know that there's a program out there called ventrilo and another called msn ? And as a side note , testing stuff on the test server is impossible for many players due to the fact that the accounts that are able to log on it are severely restricted AND refreshed once every 5 full moons. I for one am patiently waiting the remainder of the 3 full moons left so i can test crap like invention, exploration and the like, knowledge that is free for game masters, knowledge they surely share with their friends, unbalancing the game further. edit: PLEASE REMOVE -GAME MASTERS- FROM THE -GAME- WORLD! Thank you... I tried to look too far ahead And saw the road go to my past instead
Major Stormer Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:01:00 - [682] Originally by: Sharken This is a very delicate situation, and i hope that CCP will handle it. Watching this space closely Quite.
Shinjuro The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:02:00 - [683] Kieron, I wish you best of luck, and I like everyone else just want the truth to be revealed. My only worry, and don't take this personally, is that justice will not be served if the truth that I believe in is in fact discovered. So with that said, it is my request that when the investigation is complete, may we, the EVE Online Community be 100% informed as to: 1. What was uncovered, because there is so much proof on some subjects that foul play was a deffo. 2. What are you going to do about it? 3. Is there a way of preventing people from "CHEATING" in this manner in the future? Basically, all I ask is for some 100% legit truth, nothing opinionated, just truth.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:05:00 - [684] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:09:03 Originally by: Amiable Quinn It is a very different thing. A newspaper hasn't produced (albeit possibly illegally obtained) recordings of my wife calling the police saying that I was beating her. And neither has there been here. A criminal has started "sharing" some tapes he claims he stole, with no evidence they're genuine. Period. That the goons have jumped on this is typical, but does nothing for the credability of the source. Liquid Vision, you yourself called for a deliverate intervention of the T2 lottery to prevent some accounts from particupating in it. And you want the devs to have no clue about the real state of Eve, great for you. Unfortunately, that's a very good way to kill a MMO...SWG is a prime example there, that some of the devs thought the new balance was a good idea and that the playerbase would love it. If you have a magic soloution for this, let's hear it. You'll be a millionare if you can get round the necessity for people to test their own software. WoW does no less than CCP in terms of allowing their employees to play. You're taking the word of a self admited criminal hacker as gospel. I wonder what relationship you have with him, thus (and what you're guilty of, frankly). What one side says is allways "weak" when you've allready made your descision before you read it - or when you're driving one side. If you don't want devs playing the game you do, I hear EA make some FINE products. A MMO without its devs playing it has doomed itself, in even the moderate term. Software development 101, again. //Maya
Kharakan Amarr Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:06:00 - [685] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina a load of rabble Thank you... How incredibly disgusting =/ this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:06:00 - [686] Originally by: Deus Ex'Machina lots of stuff Pretty much everything you said is evidence you haven't read the thread (Can't blame you, it's long). But this has already been addressed. Every other MMO has GM's and dev's play the game. They have to in order to gain understanding of it. unless you want the devs and GM's to be completely devoid of any understanding of game mechanics.. And Kieron just posted that they have a DEDICATED team of people that monitor GM and DEV activity to make sure they are playing fair. That's the way it has to be. You don't like it, don't play MMO's.
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:07:00 - [687] Oh my, someone just compared this to ENRON. Perspective please... this is a game that people play for enjoyment, not the real world where billions were lost out of peoples retirement money because of criminals at the helm of REAL companies. JP http://www.evereserve.com
Itzena Amarr OtakuDyne Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:07:00 - [688] You know, I almost feel sorry for BoB now. i mean, everything they do from now on, no matter how impressive, is going to have undercurrents of "Well, of course they could do X; they've got devs in their corp. It's not like they have to struggle along with the rest of us" - no matter if this turns out to be justified or not. -- I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy... I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power... I want us to be what we used to be.
XirtamVotf Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:11:00 - [689] I have read this entire thread, and at this communities interest I will post my thoughts on the matter. In the last year of the game to my personal experience, the community on a rather large scale has experienced as well... bugs in this game that seem to be rather impossible to explain away. We have notified CCP directly 1 year ago with fraps provided as evidence with Helmar having his hands directly in these scenarios. Most recently and pointedly the same scenario has poppped up again that happened well over a year ago with BOB. Imperium were called whiners and liars by BOB members with the initial postings by Imperium. This included shooting through POS shields, and coming UNDER the shields and being able to lock us UNDER the shield while we couldnt do anything. BOB players vehemently denied all of it, UNTIL the fraps were posted, this is archival in the forums and factual. Recently the same scenario has appeared with BOB again and LV, it never seems to be anyone else in game, I could be wrong, but I have NEVER heard anyone else saying that they had this bug on their side of the game. CCP having this issue in their hands a year ago, waited this long to do something to correct this so called bug ? I dont think that this could in any way be classified as whining... in general the community wants a even playing field and that is all. I have encountered Evolution Before it was BOB, and to be honestly fair some of the players within BOB atm,were on the receiving end of those bugs that they used to take advantage of game mechanics. This was accomplished as they put it by using 2 differant mods on a ship to crash players taht they engaged in battle, by turning on those mods etc. What are the odds of a player being able to do that when the mods first came out, within days and them using that by luck of the dice? This was NO SECRET at that time, and the accusations now are even worse at this point. Other scenarios posted here by OTHER players than myself have been ignored that brought out even stranger scenarios that even Kerian agreed happened. I dont think that the player base here is head hunting anyone, they just want fair play for their dollars, and that IS NOT happening, whether any of you agree or disagree, these are FACTS not speculation. ASCN experienced the shield thing in their war with BOB, and nothing was done, so how does ANY player that was WELL AWARE of this a YEAR ago claim innocence? From the players point of view and is CCPs point of view, anyone who uses a game bug and exploits it is a bannable offense yes ? Then why havent the players been heard and CCP done something to correct it ? I think this mostly has caused the problems we are seeing now, Notwithstanding the forums exposed with DEVs asking for IPs to dianabolic in an open message to trace this players IP while being a employee of CCP, for that alone is reprehensible. just my 2 cents
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:15:00 - [690] I can't believe this is already 22 pages. The absurdity of this situation is mind blowing. A known hacker, who for all people know, creates his 'information' as nothing but fiction, for ISK, has duped more people into believing his scam. Dentara would be fuming to know his EIB lie has been out done. But anyways, as I've said, and as all fellow forum warriors know, these claims are complete nonsense. For those who don't live on these forums, here's a few things you need to know: 1. In almost every thread where players complained about T2 BPO numbers, Ovuer, Tuxford, or some other dev has responded stating that CCP actively monitors the number of T2 bpos for each type, in the game so that they know when to seed more to the lottery. This means that if someone spawned more BPOs, Ovuer would login one day, and see that, hey, there's now 21 of T2 BPO Y, there should only be 20. That would set off all sorts of alarms. Some player would have to have their BPO deeted to keep numbers down, and you know that a sudden 'vanish' (and I don't mean bugs in the production or R&D setup that causes BPs and materials to vanish) of a BPO from an active account would have insane amounts of forum drama. 2. When there was the incident several months ago involving the GM and the officer-fitted scorpion, in one of the replies (it was either a dev or the head GM) it was stated that every action of CCP staff is logged. 3. CCP staff are in no way unique in that their GMs and devs play their own game. I know people who have worked on WoW, EQ, and UO. I also know who they played. Generally speaking, they were all DAMN good at the game, which is natural when you're the one creating it. 4. Anyone who watched the keynote speech during fanfest, either in person or via EVEtv saw the same thing I did, where they mentioned having over 200 employees, and around 160k accounts. Allow me to go into detail what this means: 200 CCP employees, 160,000 game accounts. Right there, that is a 1:800 ratio of CCP employee:account. Now we all know that 160k accounts is not 160k different people. It's likely around 70k, we'll say 80k though to be nice. That's now a 1:400 ratio. Now, how many people are in BoB? ASCN? LV? D2? Goonswarm? ISS? IAC? Do you see where I'm going with this? I gain nothing from 0.0 politics, however as someone watching this (from empire ), it all seems a tad insane and absurd. Before the moderation started, I saw a thread with all those PMs in it, and tbh, they aren't anything I couldn't type up in a .txt file and paste here myself. The masses are being conned. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Rhaegar Targarin Minmatar	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:15:00 - [691] This thread is awesome. Someone is going to be in big trouble, and yes, as someone else said, all that BoB has done or will do is tainted because of this information. Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot
Kittamaru Gallente TARDZ Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:18:00 - [692] About the shield bug- I have had things like this happen to me from other people, not just BoB. My most memorable one is where i was sitting in my mining brutix almost a year ago in a corp I had joined. They had a medium pos up and left their ships float around since the post didn't have the CPU left to fit a hanger. All of a sudden, along comes three guys from a corp I had never seen before. I forget their name off the top of my head, but they were not in an alliance. I figure eh, what'll they do (the pos had no guns, but they were in crusiers) I was dead wrong. One of them MWD'ed towards the pos shield and bounced into it, rebounding after going, i'd estimate, 8km into it. I then found myself being locked by the other two characters. I couldn't fight back as I was unable to lock them. I can only assume that they tried to lock their third mate as he MWD'ed into the shields. This bugged out their client into thinking the shield wasn't there, and thus let them lock me. shrug Just my two pence
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:22:00 - [693] Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin This thread is awesome. Someone is going to be in big trouble, and yes, as someone else said, all that BoB has done or will do is tainted because of this information. Right up until the accusers are held accountable, and told to publicly apologize for all the sander. If the investigation shows that there is no wrongdoing on BoB's part, but lets face it, some people simply will not accept such a thing. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:22:00 - [694] You are truly said Xirtam. Can't fathom how you still actually believe all that drivel. I was in CA when you used to go off on evolution and their exploiting (actually, anyone that was the enemy of the month used to sploiters to you), and joined them some months later. Nothing of what you just said about Evolution is true, period. Those 'facts' are a figment of your deranged mind, nothing more. That day we got to shoot you through your pos shields was rather funny actually. I surprised us to notice that some of the ships we were shooting actually were in the shields, and that warping to the moon at zero landed us inside the shields as well iirr. I was there, as you were, and saw it. We also actually petitioned it ourselves, although it wasnt needed since you undoubtedly hit f12 befor your ship had even blown up. I find it incredibly cheap that you take this thread an try to turn it into another scoring opportunity in your everlastin vendetta against old Evol and the other enemies of CA of that age. I'd really advice you to get some help. Old blog Originally by: Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
Yadin Eclipse	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:26:00 - [695] Developers have been playing Eve since the get go, but as of recent it seems their powers have been abused while "in-game". With that said, the issue is no longer "what is going to happen to those people that abused their job position, or how unfair it is to have Developers on your team etc". The issue is now convincing the Players that future battles will be resolved fairly (beyond all doubt). Before it was lag, player skills, tactics that players practiced to get good at Eve... Gathering t2 gear, aligning communications on team speak and drills to better work as a team - so when they entered a battle victory was based on skill; a benefit for your effort -winning because they were Good. Now there is a variable that negates all player skills, tactics, gathering t2 gear and aligning communications, fleet and squad drills etcàand that variable: Developers Playing **I am not saying Developers cheat all the time, of course not. There are always a few bad apples that ruin things. The question has now become one of CCP's integrity: How is CCP going to restore playerÆs faith in battles with developerÆs partcipating i.e.: When a team with a DEV wins a battle, how will anyone know 100% the Dev did not "cheat"? ..and I am sure this is the only one they are concerned with from a public relations point of view
Christopher Multsanti Viziam	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:29:00 - [696] Some people may or may not done somthing wrong. CCP knows about it.... thats enough for me. It's great being Amarr that flys Minmintar aint it?
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:31:00 - [697] Originally by: Lenutza Speaking for myself, I am absolutely sick of playing on an uneven playing field. CCP has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy in this regard. Someone in ISD leaked event info to a corp in Lotka Volterra, allowing them to pre-position assets for a contest turnin that resulted in a Hel mothership. Despite the ISD leak being revealed and the absolutely absurd chance of a corp having several freighter loads worth of random stuff sitting in an NPC station, that Hel is still flying. Well I doubt the OP of this message will actually read it. But I can hope that someone else will, and not be swayed by the tin-foil hat theries. The event team, are not CCP, or devs, they consist of players them selves. And it is somewhat common for the event team to tell one, or both sides of the event what is going to happen and when. Its sometimes nessasary for some of the involved players to know beforehand so the event can take place as planed. Quote: Someone was using anonymous alts to buy up expanded cargohold bpos and other bpos that would only days/weeks later be converted into T2 variants. It is likely, though not guaranteed, that they were acting on insider knowledge. At first glance this looks like foul play, untill you remember that the patch that changed this was put on the test server weeks in advance. Meaning that who ever had that BPO, and had checked it would have access to this info. Quote: Someone dumped Cap Recharger II bpos and other bpos that were highly devalued by invention or the t2 lottery in the days or weeks before the release of Kali and the lottery. That someone must have had a lot of common sense, since I would have seriously considered doing the exact same thing my self, and the last time I checked I wasn't a dev. Quote: And now there are BoB players who are devs. Anyone sane expects Devs to play the game, and this is not a problem until it is known that they are devs. It's pretty clear this was the case It isn't pretty clear this is the case. Unless I've missed something, all see is a bunch of random PM's and posts that paint a really muddy picture of what actually happened. Which is why I'm bewildered at why so many people are going off the deep end here. And also why I'm really hoping that it eventually turns out nothing actually happened. I wouldn't want the tin-foil hat, I hate BOB so they all must cheat, generally clueless people who have posted in this thread to somehow feel vindicated in thier down right absured viewpoint on this issue at this paticular time.
ALPHA12125 Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:32:00 - [698] Edited by: ALPHA12125 on 31/01/2007 23:29:27 Originally by: XirtamVotf I have read this entire thread, and at this communities interest I will post my thoughts on the matter. In the last year of the game to my personal experience, the community on a rather large scale has experienced as well... bugs in this game that seem to be rather impossible to explain away. We have notified CCP directly 1 year ago with fraps provided as evidence with Helmar having his hands directly in these scenarios. Most recently and pointedly the same scenario has poppped up again that happened well over a year ago with BOB. Imperium were called whiners and liars by BOB members with the initial postings by Imperium. This included shooting through POS shields, and coming UNDER the shields and being able to lock us UNDER the shield while we couldnt do anything. BOB players vehemently denied all of it, UNTIL the fraps were posted, this is archival in the forums and factual. Recently the same scenario has appeared with BOB again and LV, it never seems to be anyone else in game, I could be wrong, but I have NEVER heard anyone else saying that they had this bug on their side of the game. CCP having this issue in their hands a year ago, waited this long to do something to correct this so called bug ? I dont think that this could in any way be classified as whining... in general the community wants a even playing field and that is all. I have encountered Evolution Before it was BOB, and to be honestly fair some of the players within BOB atm,were on the receiving end of those bugs that they used to take advantage of game mechanics. This was accomplished as they put it by using 2 differant mods on a ship to crash players taht they engaged in battle, by turning on those mods etc. What are the odds of a player being able to do that when the mods first came out, within days and them using that by luck of the dice? This was NO SECRET at that time, and the accusations now are even worse at this point. Other scenarios posted here by OTHER players than myself have been ignored that brought out even stranger scenarios that even Kerian agreed happened. I dont think that the player base here is head hunting anyone, they just want fair play for their dollars, and that IS NOT happening, whether any of you agree or disagree, these are FACTS not speculation. ASCN experienced the shield thing in their war with BOB, and nothing was done, so how does ANY player that was WELL AWARE of this a YEAR ago claim innocence? From the players point of view and is CCPs point of view, anyone who uses a game bug and exploits it is a bannable offense yes ? Then why havent the players been heard and CCP done something to correct it ? I think this mostly has caused the problems we are seeing now, Notwithstanding the forums exposed with DEVs asking for IPs to dianabolic in an open message to trace this players IP while being a employee of CCP, for that alone is reprehensible. just my 2 cents D2 shot our carrier outside the pos-shield. the carrier moved back into the pos shield but was still taking fire. he was clearly inside the pos shield couldnt lock anything, even got the message that said it was inside the pos shield. does this mean d2 are cheating or that they have dev's (well they prolly do, but every alliance has some. doesnt stop those bob accusations)? no it does not. it was a bug back then it is a bug now. considering some bugs are in for over 2 years or more this is nothing special. tbh i am willing to bet that if you hack any forum of any major alliance and read every thread including pm's you will find the exact same stuff be it lv, d2, red, goons, and whatnots edit: spelling
Yadin Eclipse	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:32:00 - [699] Edited by: Yadin Eclipse on 31/01/2007 23:37:03 Edited by: Yadin Eclipse on 31/01/2007 23:32:53 Edited by: Yadin Eclipse on 31/01/2007 23:30:36 Developers have been playing Eve since the get go, but as of recent it seems their powers have been abused while "in-game". With that said, the issue is no longer "what is going to happen to those people that abused their job position, or how unfair it is to have Developers on your team etc". The issue is now convincing the Players that future battles will be resolved fairly (beyond all doubt). Before it was lag, player skills, tactics that players practiced to get good at Eve... Gathering t2 gear, aligning communications on team speak and drills to better work as a team - so when they entered a battle, victory was based on skill; a benefit for your effort -winning because you were Good. Now there is a variable that negates all player skills, tactics, gathering t2 gear and aligning communications, fleet and squad drills etcàand that variable: Developers playing **I am not saying Developers cheat all the time, of course not. There are always a few bad apples that ruin things. The question is now of CCP's integrity. How is CCP going to restore playerÆs faith in pvp combat when developers are playing in the battle as well i.e.: When a team with a DEV wins a battle, how will anyone know 100% the Dev did not "cheat"?
XirtamVotf Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:34:00 - [700] Edited by: XirtamVotf on 31/01/2007 23:31:53 Hey Rod your inability to look at facts is overwhelming, as always, youve repeated the SAME scenario again and again (maybe not you in particular), but BOB players. Evolution did do those things and I have NO AXE to grind at all. Second MR ROD fact finder , look at the post BOB made BEFORE you claim you petitioned it, so just shusssh with your holy than thou attitude. BOB players on a whole told the EVE community we were lying, UNTIL we were allowed by helmar to post the fraps, then BOB went on to explain it away . So get off your high horse sir, no one as I said is on a witch hunt, but as usual you make it one.
Galea Wildfang Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:39:00 - [701] Originally by: Dekiri The reason why some older chars have more T2 BPO's and more chance to get T2 BPO's is, that many people run multiple research chars and with those you can get pretty good results in the lottery. I would even go as far as claiming that at least 60% of the currently existing "tickets" for the lottery are in the hands of multi account runners. If, as you state, the dev's in question would have multiple accounts with various alts, aren't they supposed to be in different Corps/Alliances, as the main reason to play their own game would be, to get first hand experience with their game to fix things and observe how the game evolves ? I basically don't mind the dev's/GM's/Volunteers play on TQ, but the should strictly stay out of any political stuff. Being an officer in a BoB corp makes me seriously questioning the allegiance of said person. If playing the game is soo important for him, he should just quit working for CCP. As for the transparency someone else mentioned with j0sephine asking, if they should fill out forms what they have done the whole day while playing. Well, that's exactly what I'd like them to do. One more thing, I'm quite sure the Dev's and GM's could secretely watch whatever happens in one system without being visible to the community at all and thus watch things happen and see, where problems are without actually getting involved in that. just my 0.02 platinum Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
ALPHA12125 Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:42:00 - [702] Originally by: Yadin Eclipse The question is now of CCP's integrity. How is CCP going to restore playerÆs faith in pvp combat when developers are i.e.: When a team with a DEV wins a battle, how will anyone know 100% the Dev did not "cheat"? you can't. it is in the human nature to belive in conspiracies. ccp does the only thing possible and that is dont tell who is a dev. if you just spread the rumour that under 10 equal persons 1 person is a dev (allthough it is not true) as soon as he wins he will be called a cheater, or exploiter. so the only way is to actually keep it quiet.
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:44:00 - [703] Originally by: XirtamVotf I This included shooting through POS shields, and coming UNDER the shields and being able to lock us UNDER the shield while we couldnt do anything. I thought that was because someone had forgotten to set a POs password, and also because the POS had just come online within seconds. Looks like a bug to me to be perfectly honest. But if you insist it was bob hacking, then I suppose your allowed to have that viewpoint.
Scree Caldari Stormhawks	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:46:00 - [704] aaahhhhhh, its all coming to light now. I have seen BoB change the way they play the game from: 1. Never ever Jumping into a system that is camped by there enemy, because the lag will jump make them lambs to the slaughter To: 2. Jumping in to gate camp, because they have inside information on the state of the Node, given to them by GM, which is about to crash. And being given certain client set-up information/node status that allows them to log in far quicker than there enemies. This is going to get deleted with in 1 minutes i reckon
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:47:00 - [705] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. //Maya
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:51:00 - [706] Originally by: Scree aaahhhhhh, its all coming to light now. I have seen BoB change the way they play the game from: 1. Never ever Jumping into a system that is camped by there enemy, because the lag will jump make them lambs to the slaughter To: 2. Jumping in to gate camp, because they have inside information on the state of the Node, given to them by GM, which is about to crash. And being given certain client set-up information/node status that allows them to log in far quicker than there enemies. This is going to get deleted with in 1 minutes i reckon Why would it get deleted? Other then some baseless accusation that BOB had the info passed to them by a GM... which is rather silly since I know steps to log in fast, based on first hand experiance, and talking to others, none of which were emploies of CCP
crice Caldari CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:51:00 - [707] Well I sure hope this isn't because of my post in regards to Dread replacements. 100Bill a month in revenue for a single corp makes replacement easy. Don't believe me? Don't care.... Most didn't read my post carefully enough and jumped to say CCP OMGZOR, HACKS!! We fight, die, lose, win, replace and work the infrastructure like anyone else, we just have a tad more experience and assets then others that haven't been around for almost 4 years. I believe the GM's have been doing a much better job, or maybe there are more of them. I have been around a long time. I used to have issues with petitions and responses and replacements. The response times have been great. It is the die hard players online all the time that experience the wierd hickups after a new patch or jumping into the new "content" of EvE. I won't comment on what Xirt said... Hell.. Yes I will. I remember some strange things happening in our fights when in CA, only with a certain alliance. Xirt if you recall though, FA was always thought to have some kind of "influence", and look where they are today... dead? so who knows.... Love, Hugs and Kisses.... crice
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:53:00 - [708] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we.
Scree Caldari Stormhawks	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:55:00 - [709] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Scree aaahhhhhh, its all coming to light now. I have seen BoB change the way they play the game from: 1. Never ever Jumping into a system that is camped by there enemy, because the lag will jump make them lambs to the slaughter To: 2. Jumping in to gate camp, because they have inside information on the state of the Node, given to them by GM, which is about to crash. And being given certain client set-up information/node status that allows them to log in far quicker than there enemies. This is going to get deleted with in 1 minutes i reckon Why would it get deleted? Other then some baseless accusation that BOB had the info passed to them by a GM... which is rather silly since I know steps to log in fast, based on first hand experiance, and talking to others, none of which were emploies of CCP NO mention of Node status i see. funny quite funny
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:56:00 - [710] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. How in the world would you solve balancing problems then? Ask the people in the ships and mods section, ya because is not like any of them are biased at all. Nerf the raven, boost the raven, boost the raven, I'm a crappy raven pilot boost it!!!! Nerf everything thats not a raven!!!! The fact is, the game IMO is far better served by having Dev's who are involved in it at every level.
Kernel Sander	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:57:00 - [711] Originally by: acompton Can we please stop the "KugutsGate" stuff and let CCP do their work and see what the results are. If the allegations about any unfair advantage were to prove true I am sure they will take appropriate action as they have in the past. They are not so stupid as to shoot themselves in the foot. I don't know if you can really say that. You have to scream and yell to get any kind of a response out of CCP. I recently had a complaint that I wanted to lodge and couldn't even find a contact email to do so. The options are in-game boards which are mostly ignored, or opening a petition, but petitions are so rigidly defined that there's no meaningful way to ask for redress of most things... CCP is not a very responsive company. So I think kgutswhatever's actions were entirely appropriate and I think ****ing in this thread is entirely appropriate because what you are seeing here is not* the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is that kgutsuwhatever's revelations about developer misconduct and complicity in profiteering (e.g. allowing character and plex farming for sale on ebay to make real money, with the onus and ban risk being entirely absorbed by the BUYER instead of the DEALER) wind up being Digged or metafiltered. A string of problems like that WILL have a chilling effect on new player registrations eventually. Dont believe me? Just ask AOL. Corporate reputations are actually resilient and difficult to permanently besmirch, but once sullied, they are impossible to repair. Quote: To those posting to the effect of: "OMG I lost EvE because someone had a majik t-II blueprint machine" please get over yourselves. Get over themselves? Doesn't that depend on whether or not the accusations are valid? That is some pretty damning stuff kgutblahblah presented.
Rebellion Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.31 23:59:00 - [712] Originally by: kieron ... As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread. ... Quoting this again for emphasis. The investigation is not even done yet and already hordes of you are crying foul. You choose to believe a hacker that has been observed to structure information he gets from forums in such a way as to change the context into what he wants to prove. Some of you hate BoB, like Xirt for example, we know this. Some probably hate Evolution from even before we were BoB, a number probably even from the time we started EVE with 13 players as TAOSP. The depths of your hatred at being unable to beat us leads you to take any "opportunity" you see to cause damage to BoB. If it means tainting our reputation so that all our achievements become vain, you will take it, even if the price to pay is to slander CCP and make impressionable people who don't know as much about the entire context of EVE lose faith in it. This is playing just like a tabloid at this point. Several of you either cannot see, or refuse to admit the difference between "EVE-legal" spying: joining other corps as sleeper agents, the use of informants; from "EVE-illegal" spying: hacking forums, usage of phpBB bugs. I won't begin an explanation of that here, but I just hope that the majority of EVE has better sensibilities than you. Some say that Devs should not be allowed to play EVE because of an unstated reason that you believe that they have the power to cheat and therefore will cheat. There's a massive failure to understand how something like server-side logging implemented on tools that could be used to create unnatural things could make it easy to spot wrong behavior. There's also a failure to understand how while Devs may (or may not) have full access to the game's code and database in development, none but a select few would have that level of access to the game in production. Because BoB's methods have been "secret" for as long as EVE has been around, several of you choose to believe anything that connects dots together. Your failure to understand how we could be so successful when you are not leads you to believe that we are therefore doing something illegal. The hidden root of this frame of mind is your inability to accept that your style of play requires improvement. As was said by someone before, a sufficiently advanced level of technology is indistinguishable from magic. You therefore choose to believe that magic is being done. Lastly, and once again, there is the clear hatred you have of us, which will reject all logic. You will hold us to standards that you yourselves cannot adhere to. Humor me, and let us assume, for example, that we're all that we say we are (absurd, I know, but it's possible). That our objective is perfection in EVE with our closest friends, people we enjoy spending inordinate amounts of time playing with. That you always pick the more challenging way, be it declaring war on the most powerful corporation in EVE, or conquering all of 0.0. That you play EVE because you truly love the game. That your intention is to achieve all that you intend by playing EVE as it should be played, no cheating, no unsanctioned tactics. That a testament to this was the fact that members from your corporation in beta reported the largest amount of bugs to CCP. If all that was true, allegations of cheating stab you right at the heart. Now for those that hate BoB, that's a golden opportunity to strike back and twist the knife. Enjoy your witch hunt to the fullest.
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:00:00 - [713] Originally by: Scree Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Scree aaahhhhhh, its all coming to light now. I have seen BoB change the way they play the game from: 1. Never ever Jumping into a system that is camped by there enemy, because the lag will jump make them lambs to the slaughter To: 2. Jumping in to gate camp, because they have inside information on the state of the Node, given to them by GM, which is about to crash. And being given certain client set-up information/node status that allows them to log in far quicker than there enemies. This is going to get deleted with in 1 minutes i reckon Why would it get deleted? Other then some baseless accusation that BOB had the info passed to them by a GM... which is rather silly since I know steps to log in fast, based on first hand experiance, and talking to others, none of which were emploies of CCP NO mention of Node status i see. funny quite funny I hope your sarcasitic, but just in case your not... Try logging in, if the node died, and the system needs to switch to anouther, quit often you'll be stuck at loading for a while. Just stay there, and as soon as the node comes online, you'll be one of the first in. At least this seems to be the most common occurance. And as a free hint. Don't have your fleet petition to be moved, because it works, and the GM's will kindly move you all over the place, while your enemy waits and eventually loads, and sets up in the system you want to be in.
petergriffen Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:00:00 - [714] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. This isn't just a piece of 'software' this is a computer GAME. Games are a lot different then regular applications. You have to take into account the entire user experience, as I mentioned earlier. You can't GET the player experience from someone telling you what they're feeling (basic principles of modern psychology). Observation is not as effective as first-hand experience, in ANY case whatsoever. It's subjective information. You can't verbalize human experience and emotion, it has to be experienced. I'm working on it!
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:02:00 - [715] Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 23:58:56 "They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built." If we accept they are not idiots, why are so many people trying to tell them how they should be doing their work, and what things they have and don't have to do... as if they were? They are software engineers, perhaps they have actually determined the current way to be most efficient and beneficial for the task at hand... arguing with them one way or the other is possible, but it's done from standpoint that's missing their particular perspective on things.
XirtamVotf Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:03:00 - [716] Lorth , you know i dont post that much, BOB called us liars publicly on EVE 0 forums. The fraps CHANGED thier position on EVE 0 AFTER the fraps were allowed by CCP to go public, thats a Fact. The password was up WELL before BOB even knew we were there, we had 2 large up, and 1 more online BEFORE BOB even came in system thats a fact. Password was NEVER an issue, and for me to try to lie about it ,or embellish or whatever RODDY says is ludicrous. I dont have any AXE to grind, just want things to be even, and fair for all players, and that is all. I have been playing EVE since beta and I luv the game, as do many others,just want things to be fixed without waiting years that are integral parts of being in 0.0 without the bugs if you will being used to take advantage. BOB players run their flaps about alliances arent based in 00 have no say and to stfu and become a real alliance, LOL OK BOB .. with this stuff still NOT working why would anyone risk that? I hate POS wars , but they are part of the game, never gonna be differant, so if its broke, and people use it to do what they do , EVEN when they KNOW they are doing wrong with GMS and DEVS in system watching them do it for over 20 minutes, I find that reprehensible. Again they claim we didnt know we were doing it, well local chat states otherwise, they knew they didnt care.
Torshin TARDZ Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:04:00 - [717] Any one remeber a news anchor for CBS named something like Dan Rather??? If you do remeber him before posting more flames can you post why he was fired from his job? ----------------------------------------------- Offical Tardz Poo-litical Anal-yst
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:08:00 - [718] Only so much time that this thread can remain open sooooooo IBTL! Half Assed Rhymage
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:11:00 - [719] First of all, i doubt someone would risk a job to rig the T2 BPO lottery. That being said, i find it somehow irritating if people are allowed to reveal their dev status to other players. A conflict of interest can arise very easily then. For example, i made some money trading inertial stabilisers after the kali changes, as soon as i saw the patch notes. I bought before the patch and started selling after. No biggie there, countless other players saw the patch notes and did the same. What happens though when a player knows about the change before the patchnotes even hit the site? Will he not buy a ton of said modules well in advance to maximize profit? I think he will and tbh it is a somehow big deal, but not a terribly big one. Now imagine this guy has informed 4-5 people in his corp (say, CEO and directors) about his dev status. Maybe he'll tell them what's changing in the next patch and they make billions with minimal effort, or they'll skill up to fly the new shinny toy that drastically alters the course of warfare in the game, their training finishing just as the new ubership finished cooking and it's out of the oven, way ahead of the competition. What's wrong here? Simply, the fact that some people know way before others do, because the rest of us mere mortals have to wait for the patchnotes. Imho, people who are affiliated in any way with CCP should be allowed to enjoy this great game. What they shouldn't be allowed to do is reveal this connection to other players and bring themselves into an embarassing conflict of interest. I don't know how Kugutsumen get's his info. I don't believe he is the James Bond of EvE. I also don't believe everything people accuse him to be, i see a lot of players crying wolf (or hacker in this case), but i don't see any proof (ironically by the usual "proof or stfu" crowd, hilarious). I do however exercise proper caution when viewing the contents of his site. What i do know is that if 1/10th of what he says is true, then some heads had better roll. What point is there in creating, playing, enjoying the most intensively antagonistic player driven MMO on the market if we allow a handful of people to bend the rules? For the purpose of the following i'll start with a set of axioms. First of all, let's assume the guy is indeed a hacker. Second, let's assume that what he posted is true. Third, forgive me if i happen to repeat something already said, but i'm running short on time now and haven't read the entire thread, but i'll do so as soon as i get a chance. My position on hacking is that shared by most of the community, i don't condone it, so we're done with the first part. What i really want to address though is some of the guy's intel (or "intel" depending on the outcome of this all). How does it reflect on the community as a whole to know the following? A leading member of a well known alliance happens to be connected to CCP and his role in the corp happens to be director of capital ships. As a director he is privy to sensitive ingame info, including use of a cynofield chain used for capital ship deployment. If what has been said about sharing of said cyno chain alts is true, what does he do as a CCP employee? He does know full well that it's against the EULA and people have probably got the banstick for much less, like changing skills for corpmates who can't login due to RL reasons, work or lack of internet access. How do we make sure that people who shape this game can enjoy it without disseminating information way ahead of time to selected members of the community? Maybe they should be forced to keep their job a secret, or there should be a limit on the amount of CCP affiliated players who can be in any given organisation, i don't know. (cont'd)
BlackDog Rackh'am Minmatar Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:11:00 - [720] This is for CCP to decide, what i want to see as a paying customer of 2 accounts is open and honest communication with the community about it and maybe a full audit of assets for the involved players and anyone affiliated with them. EvE in it's core is a database, maybe it's time to start digging into it. Needless to say, the way this is handled will show the way of things to come. It's better to admit something is rotten and air the dirty laundry if it is so, or present an extended report on the investigation in the case this is just rumours (to ensure that it's not being swept under the carpet), than keep it all hush hush and fuel the rumour mill. Otherwise, what we will see is a continuing escalation in regards to pushing the limits in the grey area of the ingame/out of game border which can potentially ruin the game for good.
reched Minmatar Purgatorial Janitors Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:11:00 - [721] Edited by: reched on 01/02/2007 00:08:50 check out www.whocaresitsjustagame.com and www.ifvediagamesareyourlifeyouneedtogetoutmore.net and finally www.unbalancedlifestyleandinevergetlaid.org I Crush the Skulls of the Dying And Sever the hands of the Slain I Ramses Builder of Temples Usurper of Monuments Slayer of Hittites Bringer of War
Rebellion Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:13:00 - [722] One of the main problems BoB faces with PR is that most of the people old enough to know not to believe people like Xirt are already in BoB. Therefore newer players that get impressed by the "3 years" in the character profile listen intently when they start with "let me tell you about an evil Alliance called BoB...". There's little we can do to combat the memes because they've already thoroughly poisoned the well.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:15:00 - [723] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. How in the world would you solve balancing problems then? Ask the people in the ships and mods section, ya because is not like any of them are biased at all. Nerf the raven, boost the raven, boost the raven, I'm a crappy raven pilot boost it!!!! Nerf everything thats not a raven!!!! The fact is, the game IMO is far better served by having Dev's who are involved in it at every level. Let me rip apart your silly argument for you. Balance issues for ships can be done in isolation if a tester flies a ship under a multitude of scenarios. This is what is known in the software industry as a process called testing. Why on earth does a developer need to test balance issues on a live game system with interaction from other players to see if a ship is broken or not. That's right, he doesn't. If the problem is that you don't feel the developers can achieve awareness of the problems without playing the game like any other individual then they aren't very good developers in my opinion. Again I will state for the record, I have no problem with developers playing the game because they enjoy it but saying that they need to do it is a crock.
L4L4	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:17:00 - [724] This is a great game. We need developers that play the game in a real setting. Thats a fact. Don't bother pulling out some wicked arguments. Now, why eve don't have a quality assurance towards their GM's, is not for me to answer. However, IF they had, they could easy confirm to anyone within short amount of time, that "I'm sorry, there are no sorts of things going on among our GM's" (ofc this would only be a reality if you had a honest lead-GM). We may have a honest lead gm, but the posts made by players, speaks for it self. The trust is just not there. Now, I'm not here to swing my **** and whine to anyone for A or for B. I'm just wanna ask the ppl behind the game I like, to put in an effort to convince us (your income) to trust you 100%. Ofc it's hard to do that, but atleast give it a honest try. I have my idea on how to make it better, but really.. it's easy for anyone tbh. When the trust is so screwd, any idea is a good one. I wont pester you readers on my idea, just saying that there are options to consider to avoid issues like this to be a pain for the game later on. But ofc, if anyone would be so very truly interested in my more consentrated meanings about the subject, I'd let em know. Just that what I mean or you belive aint the main issue. It's not a shame to admit you did a wrong call or didnt calculate correctly. It's a shame to not admit it when it happends. (just fyi, I know this can be different to some ppl. But then again im not speaking to anyone besides the ppl i waste cash on every month. So no need to offtrack due to your own issues.) My english aint all that (im a norwegian), but I hope and belive that many of the issues with a corrupt gm or ccp dude or whatever the name is, wouldn't have been an issue with the propper system that would provide us gamers with the trust we need to consentrate on sending cash to Iceland or whatever the name of island may be. /regards
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:18:00 - [725] Originally by: petergriffen Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. This isn't just a piece of 'software' this is a computer GAME. Games are a lot different then regular applications. You have to take into account the entire user experience, as I mentioned earlier. You can't GET the player experience from someone telling you what they're feeling (basic principles of modern psychology). Observation is not as effective as first-hand experience, in ANY case whatsoever. It's subjective information. You can't verbalize human experience and emotion, it has to be experienced. Observation isn't testing. Get it? Software is just a system, saying it's a GAME doesn't change that fact. It's just a bigger system. Software Engineers are trained to do this stuff. They don't need to frickin play the game to be able to test it.
Galea Wildfang Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:19:00 - [726] Originally by: Lorth How in the world would you solve balancing problems then? Ask the people in the ships and mods section, ya because is not like any of them are biased at all. Nerf the raven, boost the raven, boost the raven, I'm a crappy raven pilot boost it!!!! Nerf everything thats not a raven!!!! The fact is, the game IMO is far better served by having Dev's who are involved in it at every level. Uhmm, you don't need to play on TQ for balancing really, you can do a couple shootouts on SiSi to get the picture. You only need an active account on TQ to get involved in the stuff where you need a lot of people for. Or a huge infrastructure. As I said, nothing against that personally, but they shouldn't take a major role in it, should they ? Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
Bastables Amarr INTAKI UNION	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:21:00 - [727] Originally by: Mitchman There is a reason why all democratic countries have a system where the prosecution have to prove the defendant guilty and not require the defendant to prove his innocence. Really? I think you are ignoring the multitude of country's that operate under Napolonic law that are also Democratic and yet the burden of proof is on the accused to prove their innocence in such systems. Proof of guilt based systems tend to be outgrowths of British common law. Which is a Constitutional Monarchy. Be reclaimed, and be loved Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:21:00 - [728] Regardless of the truth behind any of this, the outcome will remian the same... The public will be fed BS. CCP will do whatever it takes to save face. And BoB will spin doctor its out. Remember, when crunch comes to crunch, we're nothing but numbers to these people. Numbers on a bank statement.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:23:00 - [729] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. How about the fact they want to enjoy a game they've put hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of hours into? What's next, will players demand that ISD not be allowed to play either? All MMOs are played by their GMs and Devs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, and anyone who demands that they not play the game, is insane. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:25:00 - [730] My two favorite things in this thread are 1. The way people are letting a criminal hacker and obvious bad character play them with his ginned up crap. 2. The hypocritical righteous indignation of people like Goonswarm(!) who not only systematically abused the Eve client (and why weren't there mass bannings for that?), but who repeatedly engage in "black ops" campaigns of dubious legality of their own against whoever, using both in-game and out-of-game resources. The illiterate and confused XirtamVOTF posts are third. Pathetic certainly, but not really interesting enough to make the cut.
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:25:00 - [731] Originally by: Rebellion One of the main problems BoB faces with PR is that most of the people old enough to know not to believe people like Xirt are already in BoB. Therefore newer players that get impressed by the "3 years" in the character profile listen intently when they start with "let me tell you about an evil Alliance called BoB...". There's little we can do to combat the memes because they've already thoroughly poisoned the well. Thi thread isn't about BoB, it's about dev misconduct, which is a far, far more important issue. There are a few BoB haters on this thread, but most of us are far more concerned with the Dev issues, BoB is only mentioned because you are the folks who were associated with the particular dev that was busted. This thread could easily have been about ANY of the major alliances.
Nekumi Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:25:00 - [732] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. How about the fact they want to enjoy a game they've put hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of hours into? What's next, will players demand that ISD not be allowed to play either? All MMOs are played by their GMs and Devs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, and anyone who demands that they not play the game, is insane. I never demanded a single thing. I'm merely pointing out that people saying that developers need to play the game live on Tranquility with everyone else in order to develop it are completely and utterly wrong. I will say this again because you seem to like ignoring it. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DEVELOPERS PLAYING THE GAME BECAUSE THEY ENJOY IT. Just don't feed me bull about them having to, because they don't.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:25:00 - [733] Originally by: Bastables Originally by: Mitchman There is a reason why all democratic countries have a system where the prosecution have to prove the defendant guilty and not require the defendant to prove his innocence. Really? I think you are ignoring the multitude of country's that operate under Napolonic law that are also Democratic and yet the burden of proof is on the accused to prove their innocence in such systems. Proof of guilt based systems tend to be outgrowths of British common law. Which is a Constitutional Monarchy. Aside from that, even the British system assumes that the prosecution actually has the means to obtain said evidence, subpoenas, searches etc. So if you want to compare it to anything, it would more likely to be civil instead of criminal law, and thus we're no longer talking about proof of guilt, but something more akin to plausibility. Example: OJ Simpson may have been acquited in the criminal case, he was convicted in the civil suit.
Celticjim Minmatar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:30:00 - [734] My God. Can't believe I followed this thing the entire day. In the end, regardless of anything, it's all to do with perception. Regardless if anyone did, or did not do anything wrong, it's the perception of having access to inside information that taints. Whether or not a corp did or not did receive information from a member whom is a staff member at some level becomes irrelevant. I believe this is the reason accusations have gone on since I have joined Eve back in 2003. I think Dev's being allowed to play is a valid argument, but I've often wondered about what controls are in place. Some of Kieron's explanations have helped answer outstanding questions. The barrier needing to be addressed are those times when we have a major, dominant faction within the game, and there are some Dev's/GM's in that group. What happens in those instances? How you do you guarantee a level playing field? How do you ensure the remainder of the player base that nothing untowards is occurring? Is it even possible? DBP made an interesting point a while back when the Titan was destroyed. (If it wasn't you, I apologise, but I think it was.) He stated anyone who felt it was wrong to blow up the ship due to game mechanics were being nothing more than hypocrits. Basically, we would all do it if given the same chance. He is correct, and we would all do it if given the opportunity. Do we as Eve player's have responsibility to keep check on the actions of those CCP members within our own Rank and File? Would we not take advantage of the same situation should we know of a future planned event if we knew about it? Is it hypocritical to suggest we wouldn't and report it? Again, the caveat on all of this is even if any of this is even true. Ultimately, what I would like to know if the information being shown on the third party webpage is true or false? If imaginary, then greatest con I have seen in my MMORPG experience. However, the fact that I have seen no one disclaiming their authenticity leads me to believe they are directly copied. The hacking is wrong. Pure and simple and no one will argue to the contrary. But once Pandora's Box has been opened, it's hard to close it up again. If the posts are to be believed to be true, then it harkens back to perception. I do hope transparency of the investigation is allowed. This isn't to say CCP needs to debate with us about the choice of their final actions, if any, but what was investigated, and what, if anything, was found. It's going to be an interesting couple of days. CJ
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:32:00 - [735] Originally by: w0rmy Regardless of the truth behind any of this, the outcome will remian the same... The public will be fed BS. CCP will do whatever it takes to save face. And BoB will spin doctor its out. Remember, when crunch comes to crunch, we're nothing but numbers to these people. Numbers on a bank statement. And this is where we are going downhill. Some people simply will refuse to believe the outcome if it's not the outcome they want. It is simply absurd, and is the reason many groups simply ignore their player communities in these situations. They know that no matter what is stated, no matter how rock solid the company's evidence is, if it's not what the mob wants, the mobs will not accept it. I can think of an event in recent US history that comes to mind. However it will be interesting to see CCP's results, regardless of what they are. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
XirtamVotf Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:32:00 - [736] Wow Rebellion, firstly I dont hate BOB, I do want to kill you though in game thats no secret. As BOB wants to do to the rest of us, so dont play the poor all of EVE hate BOB card, makes you look like a dolt. If you actually READ my post I put forth FACTUAL events,not speculation. We just want even playing field and fun for the entire community, and I am not the only one saying this, so just relax and read the post for what is being discussed here.
panman The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:36:00 - [737] All i see here mainly in this thread is people putting the whole of BoB in the same basket as ONE (unproven) alligation. Which may or may not be true. IF and i say IF because to be quite honest i dont think its happening, then at MOST ONE Dev and anyone he helped financially in game will be punished or have those assets removed.. I honestly dont think anything has gone on. Interesting read non the less.. But lets not speculate on what may or may not be happening. (Not that your going to listen to that). I say again, ONE member of BoB is not "The whole of bob/mc/ra/ascn" or any other corp or alliance. -----------------------

kieron	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:37:00 - [738] I'm putting a lock on the thread. I have made a number of statements regarding the investigation, what is being done internally and what will transpire once the investigation is complete. I would ask the community exersize patience and wait for the results. Please do not start new discussion threads over this topic. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.01 00:38:00 - [739] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/01/2007 23:43:57 Galea Wildfang, anything the devs don't do is basically blocking off that area from the proper dev attention. Neglecting the social aspects of Eve need would be as bad as neglecting combat in that respect. And again, playing with specific goals skewes the results from the actual experience. You need dev PLAYERS, not observers. You cannot tell from second hand experience what's really going on. Software development 101 again. Scree, nah, I'm just gonna laugh at you frankly. This is bull. Testing something does not require someone to be involved in every single case. If the devs want to play because they enjoy the game fine but saying they need to because Software Development 101 is utter crud. They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built. That's how software engineers work. Engineers don't just work off direct experimentation and there is nothing I have ever seen in this game that lends itself to a necessity for direct involvement in the game from a development point of view. So let's drop this line of crud where it is shall we. How about the fact they want to enjoy a game they've put hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of hours into? What's next, will players demand that ISD not be allowed to play either? All MMOs are played by their GMs and Devs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong, and anyone who demands that they not play the game, is insane. I never demanded a single thing. I'm merely pointing out that people saying that developers need to play the game live on Tranquility with everyone else in order to develop it are completely and utterly wrong. I will say this again because you seem to like ignoring it. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DEVELOPERS PLAYING THE GAME BECAUSE THEY ENJOY IT. Just don't feed me bull about them having to, because they don't. Completely, utterly wrong. Wrong in practice, wrong in theory. Wrong in every possible way. It is absolutely essential that the developer of any product make whatever effort he can to get whatever familiarity is possible with all aspects of the working of his product. Some of that you can do that in models, rigs, simulations, etc., but definitely not all. In a former life, I was an engineer for a huge software company making a product most people are familiar with. At some point, you have to USE it in real-time, real-life situations. Code testing and black-box simulation only takes you so far. The proof of it is, EVERY GAME COMPANY HAS DEVELOPERS PLAYING THE GAME IN LIVE SITUATIONS. I guarantee you that's true. I'd be annoyed as a manager if my people weren't playing, because I'd then worry that small yet important things weren't being seen to. It's true that they can't have positions of great responsibility. I know a guy who was the head of a major guild on an EQ1 server, who ended up getting hired by SOE as a product development manager. He didn't continue running his guild, but he certainly played. He had to. These games are so large, and so complex, you can't work with them abstractly. You have to get IN them in order to understand what the real issues are. If there's real abuse of power, that's one thing. But mostly I just see ignorance, hypocrisy and the usual feeding frenzy here.

kieron	Posted - 2007.02.07 04:26:00 - [740] I apologize for the length of time the investigation has taken. A statement has been made, you may view it by clicking this link. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 25 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.