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PETITION: Stop the Cloak Nerf!!

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hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:13:00 - [61] Originally by: bigfatbird Uhm cloaked ships being able to be detected by the basic ship scanner is a problem. Quote: Uhm how the ** is your recon "undetectable" if you even show up on the freaking directional scanner?? Umm, where was it ever stated that cloaked ships show up on scanner? This discussion is only about probes. Originally by:** Cadela Fria hydraSlav, I specifically asked no flaming, and since you have no idea about what I do and how I do it, you are in no position to say what I am and what I aren't, so kindly take that crap outside. I don't believe i flamed more than you did in your opening post. Quote: I have my opinion and I have made a petition, and I ask those who agree to sign it. You started a petition, but then anti-nerf people (instead of following your advice and just signing) decided to throw out arguments, arguments i had to retort against. You entered the discussion (something you didn't want, granted), so then i had to retort to your counter post. I will respect your intent for the thread and withdraw from this discussion (there are many more threads on the subject). However before i take my leave, i ask you to rephrase your OP, and not generalize myself under your "fellow reconship collegues", cause i am a recon pilot (emphasis on the word "pilot", i.e. someone flying the ship, as opposed to only sitting in it), and i respectfully disagree. == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Peanut Swsh Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:15:00 - [62] sure, i could totally agree with ships being undetectable if their sole purpose was recon. the problem is that most people use their recons are solo-pwnmobiles, and not for recon at all. so maybe either, cov-ops ships remain as the only ships which are totally 100% undetectable. and recons and stealth bombers are probe-able. (also let the stealth bomber warp cloaked). or make the cov-ops cloaking device II, only fitable, if you don't fit any offensive weapons on the ship. so far the only valid points i can see come from the people who are concerned about cov-ops/recon ships being used for recon. as it is anyway, hunting with a cloak on is only really viable vs nubs. so making them probeable or not will make no difference. the decent players will still blob and gatecamp you. and the nubs will just keep getting owned.
Aurora Spacefarer	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:16:00 - [63] Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 28/05/2007 15:16:11 Originally by: Big Al Originally by: hydraSlav If an AFK cloaker is so harmless, then why is he there? There is a reason why he is sitting AFK, and that reason is harming the other side. Effortless gameplay needs to go. This is the point isn't it? Local = effortless gameplay. OH NOES, WE CAN'T CAREBARE EVIL CLOAKER IN SYSTEM!!!111oneoneone Remove local and maybe scanning FOR (not down) cloakers would be decent gameplay. I agree on removing local, look in my sig isnt local already only updated every 5 mins in 0.0 I thought that was a change they made way back when I played the first time with my old account
Malena Panic Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Popsikle My concept of recon ships, and covert ops are ships that are to gather recon. How can we gather recon on the size of an emeny fleet, and what ships/pilots there are if we can be probed out in under 30 seconds. A competent covops or recon pilot will never ever be 'probed out' (decloaked and engaged) if he's paying attention. Quote: If a scout jumps in, and sees on in local now, they report that, the rest of the enemy fleet jumps in. If a scout jumps in, drops a probe and 30 seconds later says "we got a rapier watching the gate. they know we are coming thru this way" its a completely different scenario and the point of a covert or force recon ship just went down the tubes. Aha, I see the issue now. Some folks want their one frigate or cruiser to interdict whole fleets of ships by themselves. I actually think that your second scenario is far more interesting for both parties than the first scenario.
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:21:00 - [65] Originally by: hydraSlav You started a petition, but then anti-nerf people (instead of following your advice and just signing) decided to throw out arguments, arguments i had to retort against. You entered the discussion (something you didn't want, granted), so then i had to retort to your counter post. Just wanted to mention that simply posting "/signed" is considered as spam and will be moderated.
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:23:00 - [66] Originally by: Malena Panic Aha, I see the issue now. Some folks want their one frigate or cruiser to interdict whole fleets of ships by themselves. I actually think that your second scenario is far more interesting for both parties than the first scenario. Thing is, people will use alt scouts in velators as they will have the same functionality and no real risk.
bigfatbird New Justice	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:24:00 - [67] Originally by: Malena Panic Originally by: bigfatbird Uhm how the **** is your recon "undetectable" if you even show up on the freaking directional scanner?? The ship remains INVISIBLE unless it decloaks or someone decloaks it by approaching almost to contact. It's still an enormous tactical advantage. When cloaked ships show up on the directional scanner, players will be able to estimate the rough location of a cloaked ship within a system and develop active tactics accordingly, instead of simply being paralyzed from lack of information. This is a good thing. Invisible is not undetectable. If they pick you up on a shortrange scanner then you know what they gona do? they will warp to the next station, dock and make a post on the forums about further nerfing cloaks. active tactics my arse.
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Stede Bonnet Edited by: Stede Bonnet on 28/05/2007 17:10:00 Edited by: Stede Bonnet on 28/05/2007 17:09:13 Originally by: Jayson Lee Originally by: Popsikle Edited by: Popsikle on 28/05/2007 16:49:24 Originally by: Peanut Swsh um, if the enemy fleet doesn't want to be found so badly, then the fact that you are in local will prevent them from jumping in. whether or not you can be probed is gonna make buggerall difference. and some of you guys seem to have your own concept of what cloaking should entail. time to change those concepts. Originally by: Jayson Lee Very true, it wont be exact but it does it a determined peron a chance to find a cloaked afk ship. Your point does illustrate just how difficult it will be to find a cloaked ship with an active pilot. Which is why I dont see why so many people are upset with the change. My concept of recon ships, and covert ops are ships that are to gather recon. How can we gather recon on the size of an emeny fleet, and what ships/pilots there are if we can be probed out in under 30 seconds. What was the point of the ships if now they become useless. People being able to see you in local does NOT mean they know what kind of ship you fly, and how close you are to them at all. If a scout jumps in, and sees on in local now, they report that, the rest of the enemy fleet jumps in. If a scout jumps in, drops a probe and 30 seconds later says "we got a rapier watching the gate. they know we are coming thru this way" its a completely different scenario and the point of a covert or force recon ship just went down the tubes. Along with a year of skill training, because you want to be able to catch people AFK. I dont understand why the probes have to pick up covert II's, as only a few ships can fit them anyway. Then tinker with details, not the concept. No ship should be able to avoid dectection forever. Thats like saying a hauler shouldnt be able to haul for ever. Its the role of the ship, thats what they do. No one has changed that role, they can still cloak. Its a bad analogy.
Clorthos Gallente Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:27:00 - [69] /signed x 5 accounts 3 of which are covops and recon pilots ... if i wanted carebear gamming I of moved to WoW.
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:28:00 - [70] Negative. Push it through testing asap and get it in game, and then fix logoffski mechanics so that people can't just log out to avoid combat, and you will have gone a long way towards making me happy with CCP again. I can forgive pretty easily for your mistakes, but you have to stay honest and keep improving all the glaring issue with this game such as logoffski, crappy user interface, laggy large fleet battles, overpowered capitals, boring ass POS warfare, and cloaking battleship ratters. I know you are addressing a lot of that stuff, but all of it needs to be fixed.
Aramova Gallente Middle Finger Technology Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:28:00 - [71] I agree. If nothing else, this should only impact non-covert ops cloaks. -- Lag is kinda like CYVOK, it kills as many friendlies as hostiles...
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:30:00 - [72] Originally by: bigfatbird Invisible is not undetectable. If they pick you up on a shortrange scanner then you know what they gona do? they will warp to the next station, dock and make a post on the forums about further nerfing cloaks. active tactics my arse. We'll do what we (all) do every night, Pinky... come and whine on the forums
bigfatbird New Justice	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:34:00 - [73] Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst Originally by: bigfatbird Invisible is not undetectable. If they pick you up on a shortrange scanner then you know what they gona do? they will warp to the next station, dock and make a post on the forums about further nerfing cloaks. active tactics my arse. We'll do what we (all) do every night, Pinky... come and whine on the forums hehe yeah that looks to be pretty effective Brain.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:35:00 - [74] I'll gladly accept a counter for cloaking, as soon as we get a counter for the chat tab. One without the other is just stupid. I don't want to be invulnerable. I just want a chance to be sneaky. This ain't it. FFS, even WoW has a better stealth mechanic than this.
Peanut Swsh Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:37:00 - [75] Originally by: Clorthos /signed x 5 accounts 3 of which are covops and recon pilots ... if i wanted carebear gamming I of moved to WoW. and ratting in 0.0, with a cloakin raven that safes and cloaks as soon as local move isn't carebear? it seems like some recon pilots can't handle that fact that in eve sometimes you are the hunter, and sometimes you are the prey. atm some pilots seem to think that because they have trained a certain set of skills, they should be able to have invulnerability mode. don't just go around calling peope carebears because it was the first generic insult you could think of. hell, we should just have an i-win skill, train it to lvl5 and you win eve k?
Cadela Fria Amarr The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:40:00 - [76] Originally by: hydraSlav Originally by: Cadela Fria hydraSlav, I specifically asked no flaming, and since you have no idea about what I do and how I do it, you are in no position to say what I am and what I aren't, so kindly take that crap outside. I don't believe i flamed more than you did in your opening post. In my OP I did my best to refrain from calling anyone any names or bashing someone. I made simple constructive counter arguments to their perception of those incidents, like I've already mentioned once before. Originally by: hydraSlav Quote: I have my opinion and I have made a petition, and I ask those who agree to sign it. You started a petition, but then anti-nerf people (instead of following your advice and just signing) decided to throw out arguments, arguments i had to retort against. You entered the discussion (something you didn't want, granted), so then i had to retort to your counter post. I will respect your intent for the thread and withdraw from this discussion (there are many more threads on the subject). However before i take my leave, i ask you to rephrase your OP, and not generalize myself under your "fellow reconship collegues", cause i am a recon pilot (emphasis on the word "pilot", i.e. someone flying the ship, as opposed to only sitting in it), and i respectfully disagree. I have no problems with retorts, even though like you mentioned, I didn't want to turn this into a discussion, but thats unavoidable at this point. As for you being a recon pilot, I don't see the difference..you say you fly your ship..so do I. You say "as opposed to sitting in it"...so where are you? ON your ship? NEXT to your ship? I mean the prospect of your ship flying on it's own seems kinda cool, but also sounds dangerous. Yes that was a smartarse comment, because nowhere did I ever imply that I sit AFK in my reconship, infact, I never do - So your argument is pointless on that regard. I respect your disagreement, as long as you respect my view. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Peanut Swsh Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:44:00 - [77] Originally by: Blue Pixie I'll gladly accept a counter for cloaking, as soon as we get a counter for the chat tab. One without the other is just stupid. I don't want to be invulnerable. I just want a chance to be sneaky. This ain't it. FFS, even WoW has a better stealth mechanic than this. unsuprisingly you are perfectly happy that currently you are totally undetectable. as far as i am concerned, making cloaked ships probe-able is the best solution. you don't seem to realise that being able to probe out a ship, is far from being able to catch it and kill it (this is TQ at present). much less with a cloaked ship. so maybe instead of whining about the implementation of this feature, you should maybe look at coming up with a better fix. because atm, it isn't.
Psyllus Ktenas Amarr BlackHole Entertainment	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:49:00 - [78] Originally by: Peanut Swsh Originally by: Clorthos /signed x 5 accounts 3 of which are covops and recon pilots ... if i wanted carebear gamming I of moved to WoW. and ratting in 0.0, with a cloakin raven that safes and cloaks as soon as local move isn't carebear? it seems like some recon pilots can't handle that fact that in eve sometimes you are the hunter, and sometimes you are the prey. atm some pilots seem to think that because they have trained a certain set of skills, they should be able to have invulnerability mode. don't just go around calling peope carebears because it was the first generic insult you could think of. hell, we should just have an i-win skill, train it to lvl5 and you win eve k? Like no Covops or Recon got ever killed in eve til today.
nickky01 The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:51:00 - [79] /signed i felt i wasn't being cliche enough in eve, so i built my alt a raven and he's got a cloak on it
Jonny 101 The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:51:00 - [80] This is nothing short of racism! how dare you discriminate against cloakers? The Nigerians have suffered racism, and we would like to show our support to the poor cloakers of eve. I am 100% behind this petition! Whenn will the injustice stop?! ------------------------------------------------ crash003 > 400k more lp and ill have a navy mega TheJacko > 400k lol TheJacko > ineed 250k The hidden face of turby
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:52:00 - [81] Personally this really annoys me. It's very difficult to force someone into a fight these days, and cloaking in their money making system and near their re-group points with cloaked ships was one way to do it. A bunch of pussies are camping a gate with 30 people, but they run as soon as an even or greater force is spotted by their scouts in the surrounding system. How to trap them? Leave a cloaked dictor in system. NOT ANYMORE. You have been assigned to kill someone who has been smacktalking on the forums but almost always is flying his stabbed up FoF cruise raven in the belts, never participates in actual fleet-fights. How to trap him? Leave a cloaked dictor/ceptor in his system. NOT ANYMORE. So now you can't actually ambush someone with the cloak anymore they are almost completely useless. Pretty soon the only PvP we will have is at deathstars with lag-tastic 200v200 bs/capital battles.. CCP it's only a matter of time before you take this **** too far and even the carebears who's only goal in-game is to accumulate ISK and pretty spaceships will start find the game boring. - BOOST OUTLAWS (-10.0 and proud of it)
Reachok Amarr Low Grade Ore Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:57:00 - [82] Originally by: umop 3pisdn RECONS CAN WARP WHILE CLOAKED RECONS MOVE QUICKLY WHILE CLOAKED This will not change anything except: Remove AFK cloakers, and make isk farming ravens/badgers tremble in their boots. Cloaking capitals, especially motherships and titans are bull**. This is for the good of eve. They have to probe you AND warp to you AND then decloak you.... the probe will not instantly vaporise your ship.. it just gives the rest of eve a chance. Those most at risk are the farmers who SS and cloak instantly when hostiles enter system. They have to decloak to change safe spots. They are slow when cloaked. Therefore when they ss and cloak they are no longer invincible, they can be probed and warped too... the hunters can then deploy drones and start sweeping the area for the farmer. I cant wait for this patch. It wont hurt real coverts, just the farmers. Jeez. Ok, picture this: a corp is ratting in a system for refineables. Several raiders jump in. As it stands now, the corp ratting can safe up and cloak and wait out the raiders. You'd rather have the ratters, either just throw their hands up and die, or log off. Who decides who's an isk farmer anyway? In the end we're all isk farmers unless you buy your isk. Oh, and please don't tell me to fit my ratter for pvp, that's two different worlds. So, I can't log off to save my ship because it can be found and agressed before it disappears, and I can't cloak to save it either. Hmmmm.... I know, I'll just go back to empire along with several thousand others and start cramming up empire belts, doing missions in high sec, etc. Look, I've been up against Burn Eden in their cloaked Ravens. As **ed as I got about that, the same thing that allowed them to smack in local and be invisible also saved me from them in my haulers and ratting ships when they'd show up in a system I was in. Oh and, one more thing: most hunters know that if they jump into a system, and the guys there log, they need only check the belts for wrecks, then fire on the wrecks for instant aggro. Now they have not 120 seconds, but 15 minutes to hunt your ship down. Please CCP, leave the cloak as it stands alone. If you must nerf it, make it scalable, the bigger the ship, the more power required until you use too many low slots for reactor contols to make it feasible. But should I want a titan cloaked with nothing but reactor controls in the lows, I should still be able to do it. And if I'm in a ship designed for cloaking, then it should not even be an issue. And by gosh, if you go through with it, make it so you need to train up to actually bust a cloaked covop. Space Anomaly skill to detect warp signatures, Anomaly Probes and your quarry should be able to see those same probes on his overview. /signed btw
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:04:00 - [83] ding ding Wrangler: Hello, welcome to CCP, how may i help you? Player: I wish to whine. Wrangler: Ah, very good, and what might the whine be about? Player: The cloaking nerf! It's unjust, horrible, stupendous and outright wrong! Wrangler: Well, technically... Player: What? It's going to ruin cloaking forever. Wrangler: Well you see... Player: I will not stand idly by, while you nerf my cloak and make my living a... Wrangler: Living hell? Player: Yes! Wrangler: But you see it's not a nerf. Player: What?! Wrangler: It's not a nerf... Player: It i Wrangler: Per say. Player: Per say?! PER SAY?! You're ruining cloaks! Wrangler: Be that as it may, but it's called an add-on. Player: Look here! Wrangler: No you look there. Player: Where? woosh! Player: W...where'd you go?!
Hypatia Iola Caldari Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:20:00 - [84] /signed i've considered both sides of the issue and come to the conslusion that it won't actually help with farmer/carebears/whatever doing their thing and hiding, because they'll just station warp or log off. whereas thos (like myself) who were hoping to use the cloaking setup to actually gather intel will get hosed. possible alternatives: when you fit a cloak, it costs a percentage of your total cpacitor like a MWD, to represent the huge drain a cloak puts on the ship, BUT if they do that they really need to lower or even remove the recalibration time. this COULD put say a TITAN under the amount of cap it needs to fire off a DDD, and make i just ridiculously unprofitable to fit to capitals... and as for miners and whatnot, it'd hinder their effectiveness, as mining lasers use a fair bit of cap. but honestly this "recalibration" nonsense annoys me to start anyway. second is the fuel thing, whic i don't like personally because it feels sort of "tacked on" third, limit it to recon ships. this has pros and cons. 4th BOOST cloaking so that there are actually OTHER uses for it besides waiting in belts and hiding at SS's. i don't know how without unbalancing it, but right now it's frickin worthless I represent only my own views, they just happen to be the right ones.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:27:00 - [85] Originally by: Peanut Swsh unsuprisingly you are perfectly happy that currently you are totally undetectable. Incorrect. I've long held that the mechanics of cloaking were half-arse and gimmicky. I was under the impression being "totally undetectable" was a kludge fix for being unable to counter local, target, use modules of any kind, or reload. As I've said in another thread, my main beef is this takes away the initiative from the cloaked pilot. The Force Recon now becomes the hunted, rather than the hunter. The spy must rely on his cloak to avoid capture, not detection. This is "covert" in name only. True "cloaking" is undermined by a freakin' chat tab.
Xilimyth Derlin	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:30:00 - [86] /agree here I was going to train up a recon ship myself but the idea of being probed out while scouting doesn't make sense to me. Now on the other hand, if say Covert Ops Cloak IIs, are immune to this and let you do your job, that's one thing. A dedicated recon ship would in any case specialize against this. However, letting the Prototype and Improved models be detectable I have absolutely no issues with. After all, even by their names they are not 'perfected' cloaks.
Richard Masterson Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:36:00 - [87] Originally by: Vergil Mathers Covops / Stealth bombers should, and hopefully will continue to be invisible.. unless you are really dumb.. HOWEVER.. Carriers / Titans / MS / BS / Dread? / etc... I don't think that these huge ships were ever meant to disappear. That is just dumb.. Exactly how I feel. CovOps were designed to be truly invisible. The abuse of the cloak lies in the ratter/farmer/cap ship pilot who wants to completely negate the risk of operating in low sec space. I have had the pleasure of scanning down and killing farmers. Sooner or later they figure out to fit a cloak, which makes it damn near impossible to find them. Since CCP will do nothing in the face of reports and petitions of ISK farming, it is up to the playerbase to police these people. How can I do that when my target can run and hide faster than I can find him? Allowing probing for ships that CANNOT warp when cloaked allows players to truly hunt the hunted.
Zeonos Amarr Fairtrade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:50:00 - [88] Signet Do not nerf Stealth! it should be possible to hide ambushes or go afk in deep 0.0 with no station present. and everything else stealth is.. Sound on url you come to if you click. sorry for lacking eve content.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:53:00 - [89] Originally by: Grash Freedom hahahahhaha this wins the thread :) Thank ya kindly What i was trying to say with my own, rather peculiar..umm...edium sir?..yes edium!, that it's not a nerf. It's rather a logical add-on to the military equipment to counter for the uprising in cloaking technology. Now then, after it's launched into the warfare, i bet other things will happen after. Just how technology works.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:56:00 - [90] /SIGNED Afk cloaked ships are not a menace, but hey it takes less effort to whine on the forums than escort your miners / ratters or bait the hostile.

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