Originally by: Godar Marak

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Link or STFU!

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Originally by: Godar Marak

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Edited by: Godar Marak on 30/05/2007 17:54:57
Link or STFU!

edit : And CCP


If you hadnt had MSN hotline with Band of ***s this would never had happened.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.

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Originally by: Cayloron

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You're funny. What are the goons going to sue for, they don't own anything. All of the digital assets are owned by CCP, and all real life money invested in game is in violation of the EULA.

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Quote:

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Originally by: CCP kieron

If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.

Originally by: Broska

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Originally by: Dal Thrax

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On the other hand once the countersuit hits this won't be about EvE anymore as much as whether or not SA can raid CCP's White Wolf Properties.

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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Originally by: Phoenixhawk

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Patching.......... Oh wow look the servers didnt all shut down. Hi-Five another successful patch....Durrrwomp....Hey who turned out the lights, oh look there's light outside the wi

Originally by: DiuxDium

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Edited by: DiuxDium on 30/05/2007 18:06:53
^^ "Lol"

Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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They're not. Welcome to Trolling.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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OK, I understand there has been a disagreement over CCP's internal investigation, but unless someone can link to some evidence that legal threats have actually been made people need to STFU. Seriously, ****.

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Originally by: Godar Marak

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Originally by: Broska

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Your an idiot. The fact CCP is the first name on the case (btw I agree with you on the link or STFU part), mean's that CCP is suing SA not the other way around.

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Originally by: Dal Thrax

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Since I started playing this game I've been keeping a list just for my own information. RICO (the Racketering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act) tops the list but there are others (which tbh require a deeper understanding of sports and gambling law then I'm willing to put in without somebody paying me for it). Simply put it could be bad, really bad.

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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Originally by: KeratinBoy

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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The relevant part from Arkanon's blog -

The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Originally by: KeratinBoy

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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The relevant part from Arkanon's blog -

The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

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That's a long way from saying they are going to sue. But at least that clarifies the situation, CCP is looking at legal action against the accusers. It's an empty threat though, considering CCP would have no case.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.

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Originally by: Broska

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Originally by: KeratinBoy

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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The relevant part from Arkanon's blog -

The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

---

That's a long way from saying they are going to sue. But at least that clarifies the situation, CCP is looking at legal action against the accusers. It's an empty threat though, considering CCP would have no case.

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And your expert legal opinion and knowledge on this is?

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Originally by: Lyn Bunnions

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This is bull****. If it wasn't bull**** the only court this would likely be fought in would be a US court. In a US jury court CCP would lose and probably be bankrupted by the penalties they were forced to pay. Therefore this is bull****. Nice troll though.

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Originally by: Jesters Knight

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Originally by: Lyn Bunnions

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This is bull****. If it wasn't bull**** the only court this would likely be fought in would be a US court. In a US jury court CCP would lose and probably be bankrupted by the penalties they were forced to pay. Therefore this is bull****. Nice troll though.

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not if they could prove it, and the legal system in the US is such that nobody would ever pay anything, it would take 20 years to sort out

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Originally by: KeratinBoy

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

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The relevant part from Arkanon's blog -

The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

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Quote:

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CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

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Originally by: Sekket

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Memorial Day in the US is a holiday in Iceland? 0.o

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Originally by: Zin Tal

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Just curious (as I don't really care about BoB or GS) but couldn't the treadnaught that the Goons did be considered a DoS attack?

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Originally by: Nicorn

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Edited by: Nicorn on 30/05/2007 18:42:17

Quote:

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CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

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Witch governments are you referring to? Because it is most certenly not the danish government look at the "cartoon diplomatic crisis"

Personally I am aware of French and British laws which can be quite restrictive on freedom of speech if it is defaming of someone else.

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Originally by: Iraf Thaiberd

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... once the people who own the game say "Here are 10 things that don't have much to do with any of your complaints but we're going to call you liars based on them and ignore what you were actually complaining about...

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Quote:

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The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances.

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Originally by: Dal Thrax

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Originally by: Cayloron

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You're funny. What are the goons going to sue for, they don't own anything. All of the digital assets are owned by CCP, and all real life money invested in game is in violation of the EULA.

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Since I started playing this game I've been keeping a list just for my own information. RICO (the Racketering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act) tops the list but there are others (which tbh require a deeper understanding of sports and gambling law then I'm willing to put in without somebody paying me for it). Simply put it could be bad, really bad.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Equal to yours. I studied enough business law in college to know the basics of contract law, international law, and defamation lawsuits. In the United States such lawsuits are notoriously difficult to prosecute and usually end up hurting the company doing the suing.

CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

EDIT: By the way, CCP knows this which is why this is an empty threat. They simply want to scare people away from damaging their brand, and for that I do not blame them.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Edited by: Through Actions on 30/05/2007 18:33:35

Originally by: Broska

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Originally by: KeratinBoy

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Originally by: Miriyana

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wtf, since when is CCP getting lawyers out?

---

The relevant part from Arkanon's blog -

The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

---

That's a long way from saying they are going to sue. But at least that clarifies the situation, CCP is looking at legal action against the accusers. It's an empty threat though, considering CCP would have no case.

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And your expert legal opinion and knowledge on this is?

---

Equal to yours. I studied enough business law in college to know the basics of contract law, international law, and defamation lawsuits. In the United States such lawsuits are notoriously difficult to prosecute and usually end up hurting the company doing the suing.

CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

EDIT: By the way, CCP knows this which is why this is an empty threat. They simply want to scare people away from damaging their brand, and for that I do not blame them.

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Originally by: Dev Blog

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Since last Friday, an unnamed corporation posted over 4000 times on EVE's message boards concerning these allegations

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Originally by: Dev Blog

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The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

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Originally by: Tractormech

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Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Equal to yours. I studied enough business law in college to know the basics of contract law, international law, and defamation lawsuits. In the United States such lawsuits are notoriously difficult to prosecute and usually end up hurting the company doing the suing.

CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

EDIT: By the way, CCP knows this which is why this is an empty threat. They simply want to scare people away from damaging their brand, and for that I do not blame them.

---

Go back and check your law books.

Defamation occurs when those committing the act do so:

1) Without a good faith belief in the truth of the statement; or
2) Without reasonable grounds for believing the truth of the statement; or
3) With a motive or willingness to vex, harass, annoy, or injure you; or
4) Is exaggerated or not fully or fairly stated; or
5) The result of a reckless investigation; or
6) Motivated by hatred or ill will towards you.

Looks to me like Goons crossed the line several places. A callous disregard for the truth is enough.

What's more, and here's the real kicker:

- You do not have to prove damages in a defamation case as damages are assumed (so CCP need not figure out how many people left for instance to show a specific damage).
- Each repetition of a defamatory remark is a new injury. This means that you can obtain damages for each time the defamatory statement is repeated.

That last is a rough one...how many times did Goons post? 4,000? That makes 4,000 individual instances of defamation each considered a separate injury to CCP.

As for Goons countersuing? I'd really like to see for what. Even if Devs were sitting in Jita spawning Titans for BOB and insta popping all other alliances' POS there is nothing illegal about that. It's their game. They own it. They can do what they like. It would be stupid of course but not illegal.

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Quote:

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First people try to work the devs personal "pay" accounts out of the game at any cost and now you want CCP to tell them who they can and cannot communicate with at any time during their employment?!

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Originally by: Sekket

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Quote:

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First people try to work the devs personal "pay" accounts out of the game at any cost and now you want CCP to tell them who they can and cannot communicate with at any time during their employment?!

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Have you ever heard of a crime called insider trading? Look it up.

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Originally by: Tractormech

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Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

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Originally by: Tractormech

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Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Yes and that's not insider trading. Insider trading has only to do with securities such as stocks, not game assets. http://www.sec.gov/answers/insider.htm

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Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2

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"You're funny. What are the goons going to sue for, they don't own anything. All of the digital assets are owned by CCP, and all real life money invested in game is in violation of the EULA."


This is not true, since CCP actually encourages the use of buying GTC ( real money ) for trade for in game resources.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Originally by: Sekket

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Quote:

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First people try to work the devs personal "pay" accounts out of the game at any cost and now you want CCP to tell them who they can and cannot communicate with at any time during their employment?!

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Have you ever heard of a crime called insider trading? Look it up.

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Yes and that's not insider trading. Insider trading has only to do with securities such as stocks, not game assets. http://www.sec.gov/answers/insider.htm

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Originally by: Through Actions

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Originally by: Sekket

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Quote:

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First people try to work the devs personal "pay" accounts out of the game at any cost and now you want CCP to tell them who they can and cannot communicate with at any time during their employment?!

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Have you ever heard of a crime called insider trading? Look it up.

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Yes and that's not insider trading. Insider trading has only to do with securities such as stocks, not game assets. http://www.sec.gov/answers/insider.htm

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Originally by: William Freeman

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LMFAO. OMG, you all need to get a life. Maybe you can buy one.

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Originally by: Sekket

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Edited by: Sekket on 30/05/2007 19:09:38

Originally by: Through Actions

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Yes and that's not insider trading. Insider trading has only to do with securities such as stocks, not game assets. http://www.sec.gov/answers/insider.htm

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Yes, but my point being, companies can and do contractually require their employees not to certain people of certain things. Take for example any NDA agreement. I've not yet seen any legal exemptions for "RL friends" in any NDA I've seen.

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Originally by: Through Actions

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A callous disregard for the truth IS NOT ENOUGH. CCP would have to prove that the complainers knew their complaints were untrue, but even that does not matter. There is a little things called the first amendment which protects even the most outragous speech in the US.

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Originally by: WhitePhantom

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Show us CCP's contract for their staff, and I will entertain your thought process, otherwise drop it alright?

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Originally by: Sekket

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Yes, but my point being, companies can and do contractually require their employees not to certain people of certain things. Take for example any NDA agreement. I've not yet seen any legal exemptions for "RL friends" in any NDA I've seen.

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Originally by: Sekket

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Have you ever heard of a crime called insider trading? Look it up.

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Originally by: Sekket

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Yes, but my point being, companies can and do contractually require their employees not to certain people of certain things. Take for example any NDA agreement. I've not yet seen any legal exemptions for "RL friends" in any NDA I've seen.

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Originally by: Sekket

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Have you ever heard of a crime called insider trading? Look it up.

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Originally by: Buxaroo

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Originally by: Tractormech

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Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

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Best.
Analogy.
Ever.

You sir have just described the whole thing in a nutshell.

I was trying to think up something simular but in a political sense, but yours hits it right on the head.

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Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn

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I personally love it when people threaten legal action against someone over the internet. It is one of those age old things that has been around forums and BBCs since the net started. Almost as bad as the "My brother did it" line.

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Originally by: CaosSpinner

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Actually no, the scenario described in not the case and does not come close to resembling the case.

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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Goonfleet has more lawyers in it than any other real life company tbh. I await the outcome with popcorn ready.

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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Goonfleet has more lawyers in it than any other real life company tbh. I await the outcome with popcorn ready.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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as pointed out CCP has only said that they are looking into what legal recourse may be available to them. What Goons did was sufficient that there may indeed be cause for them to worry about that.

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Originally by: Pvt Sammich

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The big problem that you are going to run into is that GoonFleet isn't part of Somethingawful LLC. The user base of somethingawful forums decided to branch off and play a game they took the name "Goon" with them since they would only allow forums users to join corp.

Good luck with any legal action on that.

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Originally by: DubanFP

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people who claim "first amendment" are idiots. The first amendment only protects against the Government.

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Originally by: CCP Arkanon

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The fact that this attack took place over a holiday weekend was especially revealing of motive, which we believe was specifically by design to ensure that CCP would not be able to react as fast and efficiently as we would under normal circumstances. The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

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Originally by: Loyal Servant

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CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Originally by: Loyal Servant

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CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.

---

Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Originally by: Loyal Servant

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CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.

---

Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.

---

Originally by: Tractormech

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Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

---

Originally by: Phoenix Britannian

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Originally by: Tractormech

---

Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

---

Except they couldn't do anything to Something Awful itself for it. Why? Because the actions were carried out by a small portion of its tens of thousands of paid forum subscribers, also known as "Goons", and not by Something Awful itself. Thus, you'd have to pick out each and every one of them to file suit against, which I suppose wouldn't be too hard for someone with all their contact information on file.

---

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

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2.) Since Iceland has no seperation of church and state any case they would make againist an American institution or persons can be instantly thrown out of court by claiming the first amendment.

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Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

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Just a slught nitpick, but SA membership hit 100,000 last nightish I think.

Also, knowing a lot of goons, CCP would be searching Azerbaijan for several hundred people by the name Leonard Butteska.

---

Originally by: prsr

---

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

---

2.) Since Iceland has no seperation of church and state any case they would make againist an American institution or persons can be instantly thrown out of court by claiming the first amendment.

---

Having a state religion doesn't mean that there is no freedom of religion.

It's a rather strange argument anyway, the first amendment of the US constitution is a rule that the US congress needs to abide by. What does that have to do with a US citizen in court vs ccp from iceland?

---

Originally by: Buxaroo

---

Originally by: Tractormech

---

Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

---

Best.
Analogy.
Ever.

You sir have just described the whole thing in a nutshell.

I was trying to think up something simular but in a political sense, but yours hits it right on the head.

---

Originally by: Loyal Servant

---

Headlines: Company sues customers

Not good...

---

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

---

Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.

Unless it's one of those activist judges Fox News talks about....

---

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

---

Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.

---

Originally by: Megadon

---

In light of recent events...

I have consulted my (C)rack Team of Ivy League Lawyers (CTILL)...

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Through Actions

---

Equal to yours. I studied enough business law in college to know the basics of contract law, international law, and defamation lawsuits. In the United States such lawsuits are notoriously difficult to prosecute and usually end up hurting the company doing the suing.

CCP may have more success in European courts where governments have less of a problem censoring their people, however in America and internationally it is extremely unlikely that CCP would get anything, including an injunction out of a lawsuit.

EDIT: By the way, CCP knows this which is why this is an empty threat. They simply want to scare people away from damaging their brand, and for that I do not blame them.

---

Go back and check your law books.

Defamation occurs when those committing the act do so:

1) Without a good faith belief in the truth of the statement; or
2) Without reasonable grounds for believing the truth of the statement; or
3) With a motive or willingness to vex, harass, annoy, or injure you; or
4) Is exaggerated or not fully or fairly stated; or
5) The result of a reckless investigation; or
6) Motivated by hatred or ill will towards you.

Looks to me like Goons crossed the line several places. A callous disregard for the truth is enough.

What's more, and here's the real kicker:

- You do not have to prove damages in a defamation case as damages are assumed (so CCP need not figure out how many people left for instance to show a specific damage).
- Each repetition of a defamatory remark is a new injury. This means that you can obtain damages for each time the defamatory statement is repeated.

That last is a rough one...how many times did Goons post? 4,000? That makes 4,000 individual instances of defamation each considered a separate injury to CCP.

As for Goons countersuing? I'd really like to see for what. Even if Devs were sitting in Jita spawning Titans for BOB and insta popping all other alliances' POS there is nothing illegal about that. It's their game. They own it. They can do what they like. It would be stupid of course but not illegal.

---

Originally by: prsr

---

Edited by: prsr on 30/05/2007 21:02:13
Edited by: prsr on 30/05/2007 21:01:08

Originally by: Rex Dangerstein

---

Believe it or not, Iceland is different in the fact that there is no law protecting freedom of religion, ergo, conflicting with US law, so it can be thrown out.

---

1. The US state dept. says there is freedom of religion provided by the constitution of Iceland. (here)

2. How does a non-existant conflict with US law enter into a case about internet spaceships.

3. I'm sure Icelandic tax laws are different from US law, maybe thats enough ground to get it thrown out on?

---

Originally by: Wylker

---

Shrug, I don't have a ton of legal experience...

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Megadon

---

In light of recent events...

I have consulted my (C)rack Team of Ivy League Lawyers (CTILL)...

---

Did your CTILL team also mention that in order to recover your $15 it will cost you $500,000 in CTILL fees?

---

Originally by: Erik Pathfinder

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Loyal Servant

---

CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.

---

Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.

---

QFT

Not to mention messing with other player's fun, ie the game we play.

Stop trying to kill EVE, just go away if you don't like it, or hell, make a better game and I will play that instead!

---

Originally by: Dal Thrax

---

Can you append country please? That sounds like a British libel action, not the hell and a half it is to sue somebody for libel in the US.

Dal

---

Originally by: Xaen

---

To CCP:

Don't bring out the lawyers.

Haven't you seen what happens when a company tries to legally attack who did something to them on the internet? The story explodes. The bad press you're trying to suppress goes global and receives more attention. The 15 minutes of fame becomes immortalized as stuff of internet-lore forever.

Yeah yeah, I know I'm in the Goonswarm, but I'm trying to give friendly advice. Lawyers do not win internet battles. You might as well commit internet seppeku as bring lawyers into an internet fight.

---

Originally by: Nore Khadafi

---

Lawyerswarm haven't brakes.

---

Originally by: Buxaroo

---

Originally by: Tractormech

---

Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

---

Best.
Analogy.
Ever.

You sir have just described the whole thing in a nutshell.

I was trying to think up something simular but in a political sense, but yours hits it right on the head.

---

Originally by: Marquis Dean

---

Yeah I know. But I was in the shower.

---

Originally by: Mogrin

---

You need to add in the part where some of the stuff is actually true.
You can pretend it didn't happen on message forums but you can't do that in court.
It happened for real. All of the other suspicions might be real too, CCP would have to prove they weren't, in court.

So you see its not so simple as saying "WRONG!" in big red bold uppercase in a courtroom.

---

Originally by: Imperius Blackheart

---

All these people saying things won't stand up in a US court of law, you do realise that Iceland isn't in the US right? When you sign up to play Eve you sign a contract under Icelandic law, I don't know if it would stand up or even if CCP intend to sue for libel or slander or DOS or anything like that. Legal action was mentioned however.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Imperius Blackheart

---

All these people saying things won't stand up in a US court of law, you do realise that Iceland isn't in the US right? When you sign up to play Eve you sign a contract under Icelandic law, I don't know if it would stand up or even if CCP intend to sue for libel or slander or DOS or anything like that. Legal action was mentioned however.

---

Pretty sure if CCP wanted to sue US citizens they would have to do so in the US. Even if they could sue in Iceland they cannot compel the attendance of the defendants and even if they won they would have no way to enforce the ruling (unless one of these people moved to Iceland).

I believe the EULA bit about making Iceland the venue for a legal dispute is if you want to sue them.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

It is up to Goons to prove that they had reasonable cause to believe the allegations were true.

---

Originally by: Imperius Blackheart

---

I am pretty sure as a British citizen if I commited a DOS attack on a US based business website I would be in court like a shot.

---

Originally by: Tractormech

---

Look at it this way.

A man buys groceries from the grocery store. One day he buys a steak. He eats the steak and is fine.

Near a month later, he and the grocery store owner have a disagreement. The customer immediatley begins feigning sick saying it was the steak that made him life-threateningly ill. He goes on the live television telling all the grocery stores customers that shopping there will make you sick. He then gets 4000 of his buddies to picket outside said grocery store until they are cleared off by police. An investigation by police finds the man made it all up.

What would happen? The customer would get his ass sued off by the store.

Absolutely no difference in this case.

---

Originally by: Anille Kole

---

I honestly find it hilarious that people will value the opinion of a group known to come from literally the troll center of the internet, and who have openly lied, exploited, cheated, propaganda-spammed, and just been goons *cough* in general, over the game company who actually has something at stake when something like this comes up.

Always kept the faith, CCP! Although it probably helps that I've been anti-Goon in the past... oh, and the whole "common sense" thing.

Still, I have no idea what they were trying to accomplish. Honestly, all I've ever seen from them are attempts to swarm something, and upon failure, swarm the next best thing. Likely, they failed gloriously to kill off BoB, so they attacked CCP and BoB quasi-out-of-game to try to make up for that. Hopefully the last few bastions of stupid will die out over the weekend, and the ocean of tinfoil hats will stop blinding everyone.

---

Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto

---

Cliff notes?

---

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

---

Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto

---

Cliff notes?

---

"Blah Blah Blah Internet Spaceship Blah Blah"

^ That about covers it. Oh and theres about 50ish people acting like wikipedia trained lawyers.

---

Originally by: Maya Rkell

---

This Pilot, it would behove you to read the actual sequence of events.

---

Originally by: Farham

---

Edited by: Farham on 30/05/2007 23:08:33

Legal action exposes people to *Discovery*.

Somehow I don't think anyone on either side wants discovery.

This is a non-issue and it was just stupid for Kerion to mention "legal resources".

---

Originally by: General Windypops

---

In just 5 minutes or so I saw posts abusing black people, images mocking the deceased in the 9/11 attacks and abusive posts about jewish people.

I took screenshots, as I'm sure many others did.

---

Quote:

---

In the UK at least, such images are considered illegal under racial hatred laws.

---

Originally by: General Windypops

---

Edited by: General Windypops on 30/05/2007 23:19:20

Interesting that Goonswarm seem to be glossing over the image spamming they were doing this morning.

In just 5 minutes or so I saw posts abusing black people, images mocking the deceased in the 9/11 attacks and abusive posts about jewish people.

I took screenshots, as I'm sure many others did.

I think our little Bee friends forgot that in this game their forum names are linked to real world details like credit card numbers.

In the UK at least, such images are considered illegal under racial hatred laws. I also have a screenshot of the new supposed 'CEO' of GS laughing it off as 'freedom of speech'.

---

Originally by: This Pilot

---

Originally by: Anille Kole

---

...

---

The first accusations were dismissed and silenced until the raging horde of goons and others made it impossible to cover up. The subsequent investigation showed that yes indeed a CCP employee was in fact cheating, by his own admission.

So, when a new accusation was dismissed and silenced involving some of the same entities from the first accusation, who would you believe?

Logic dictates you assume the action was repeated.

---

Originally by: Anille Kole

---

B) He didn't do it to cheat. This would mean that a petition asking about it would probably be deleted because 1) it's sorta silly to try to accuse a dev of joining a corporation for 15 minutes to cheat, when they have access to the same sort of information just because they're devs, and 2) they probably figured that the corp members who petitioned it would've explained it. Now, if this starts flooding the forums, obviously it's going to get locked down, especially considering that CCP(and the dev) would've had no idea that there was anything wrong with the scenario, since as far as they knew, it was resolved. I imagine there'd be a similar response if you started a bunch of threads seriously accusing TomB of raping your cat. You're welcome to try it, though.

---

Originally by: Nevada Tan

---

Originally by: Farham

---

Edited by: Farham on 30/05/2007 23:08:33

Legal action exposes people to *Discovery*.

Somehow I don't think anyone on either side wants discovery.

This is a non-issue and it was just stupid for Kerion to mention "legal resources".

---

Yeah, exactly
"We're suing you!"
"Fine. Our lawyers say that we'll need copies of all your forums server logs, game server logs, meeting minutes, petition database, etc, etc. from the last X years. In triplicate. Any part or parts of that information may or may not be made available to the public as part of the court records"

---

Originally by: Anille Kole

---

If you have a transcript of the petition, that'd be nice. However, as far as I know, there is none, so the wording is entirely up for question. If I knew one way or the other, I'd post to match, but I feel as though my wording was appropriate based on the general feel of the first wave of posting.

---

Originally by: Ammoina

---

If they did do that... the resulting storm would be so gigantic CCP would never recover from the bad PR.

---

Originally by: Ammoina

---

If they did do that... the resulting storm would be so gigantic CCP would never recover from the bad PR.

---

Originally by: Maya Rkell

---

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/05/2007 00:46:41

Originally by: Ammoina

---

If they did do that... the resulting storm would be so gigantic CCP would never recover from the bad PR.

---

I think we have a different definition of bad PR. I'd like to see toasted bees, m'self.

---

Originally by: Hllaxiu

---

Originally by: Maya Rkell

---

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/05/2007 00:46:41

Originally by: Ammoina

---

If they did do that... the resulting storm would be so gigantic CCP would never recover from the bad PR.

---

I think we have a different definition of bad PR. I'd like to see toasted bees, m'self.

---

Because you know, $45k/month of income is something a corporation like CCP is going to just shrug off...

---

Originally by: Avon

---

lulz @ goonswarm thinking they are so important that they are worth a law suit!

Why would CCP even bother?

Nice lawyers letters to the sites that broke they story, formally requesting a retraction, or at least appending the story with their investigations outcome. That is probably as far as it goes.

Still, the thought of this conversation makes me feel good:

CCP: If we banned all of the members of a single organisation within our game, would we be opening ourselves up to legal action?

Lawyers: No. It's your game. You can refuse anyone's business at any point.

CCP: * CLICK *


Serious Business indeed...

---

Originally by: Mogrin

---

Oh and looks like CCP won't have been the first to threaten legal actions.
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/

---

Originally by: Megadon

---

Originally by: Ammoina

---

If they did do that... the resulting storm would be so gigantic CCP would never recover from the bad PR.

---

yeah riiiight, CCP bans Goons for being ****** smacktards, the repercussions would last like a whole.....


DAY.

---

Quote:

---

Goons have a long and storied history of stirring things up. As a poster on somethingawful.com said,

Quote:

---

To be quite honest I donÆt really put it past the Mittani (Goonfleet leader), moral scruples are not in his job description.

---

---

Originally by: This Pilot

---

The first accusations were dismissed and silenced until the raging horde of goons and others made it impossible to cover up. The subsequent investigation showed that yes indeed a CCP employee was in fact cheating, by his own admission.

So, when a new accusation was dismissed and silenced involving some of the same entities from the first accusation, who would you believe?

Logic dictates you assume the action was repeated.

---

Originally by: Aramova

---

Mattani is renowned for his underhanded bull. No body going to cry on Goon's side in this, except for goonie alts.

---

Originally by: umop 3pisdn

---

Goons are smack tards now?

Goons are weird to be sure, but anyone who hangs around SA or even 4chan can "understand" them.

BoB on the other hand... holly ****... the foulest smack in the game comes out of their camp.

CCP wants to keep taking goons money. What they dont want is people like Kugu trying to uncover corruption within the ranks of CCP (call him a hacker if you like, but did he hack anything of CCPs? unless you consider the bob forum CCP's property...)

Goons DDOS the forum? You know if you dont lock their threads constantly and just directed them towards a thread about Nate Hammertown and a few others they wouldnt keep spamming new ones. But of course, if its not about bob, it gets locked in COAD.

---

Originally by: WhitePhantom

---

Eve does no contain sports nor gambling, so does the RICO apply to Eve exactly?

CCP does not offer gambling of any kind, other plays might offer it, but CCP could end that very easily if that was an issue that was brought up. Please provide proof how RICO effects CCP who is in another country.

I really hope RICO isn't some screwed up American Act, because I really hate those organizations....

** Edit I thought RICO was an Organization like RIAA.

---

Quote:

---

Under RICO, a person or group who commits any two of 35 crimesù27 federal crimes and 8 state crimesùwithin a 10-year period and, in the opinion of the United States Attorney bringing the case, has committed those crimes with similar purpose or results can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 and/or sentenced to 20 years in prison. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity."

Racketeering activity means:

* Any act or threat involving gambling, murder, kidnapping, arson, robbery, bribery, extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act), which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year;

* Any act which is indictable under a wide variety of specific provisions of title 18 of the United States Code relating to bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, etc.

* Any act which is indictable under title 29, United States Code, section 186 (dealing with restrictions on payments and loans to labor organizations) or section 501 (c) (relating to embezzlement from union funds),

* Any offense involving fraud connected with a case under title 11 (except a case under section 157 of this title), fraud in the sale of securities, or the felonious manufacture, importation, receiving, concealment, buying, selling, or otherwise dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act), punishable under any law of the United States,

* Any act which is indictable under the Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act,

* Any act which is indictable under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 274 (relating to bringing in and harboring certain aliens), section 277 (relating to aiding or assisting certain aliens to enter the United States), or section 278 (relating to importation of alien for immoral purpose) if the act indictable under such section of such Act was committed for the purpose of financial gain, or

* Any act that is indictable under any provision listed in section 2332b (g)(5)(B);
law.

---

Originally by: Taerenius

---

A) It's hilarious how EVERYONE suddenly becomes a lawyer when something like this pops up - people who have a law background that ONLY includes what they've read on wikipedia talk like they've been a professional lawyer for 10 years.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Loyal Servant

---

CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.

---

Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.

---

Originally by: Diana deVos

---

You mean like when you butcher legal concepts for which it is clear you have no understanding or training and insult others who have demonstrated a greater, albeit, layman's grasp? Including jurisdictional differences within the international community.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Loyal Servant

---

CCP - think that one over a minute.
That does nothing but embolden people, and make more rise up against you.

Take a hint: let it die.
Calling your lawyers then TELLING your customers that your calling your lawyers on them is just going to insight them against you.

Not to mention you have virtually no case.

---

Eh? I'm ready to start a CCP Legal Aid Fund for them. I hope they do find sufficient reason to go after these people. It is getting tiresome where people are emboldened by internet anonymity and feel their actions have no repercussions or consequence. Not even counting their reputations a lot of people work for CCP. Apparently it does not concern these people that they are messing with other people's livelihoods and doing so in a callous and craven manner.

If they are so convinced of CCP bad intetions and despise company so much then they are free to cancel their accounts.

---

Originally by: Dop Sutol

---

You have to be a lawyer, only a lawyer would suggest something, like suing your dissatisfied customers, so that the lawyer can make a profit and the client could be ruined. Yeah, CCP will win in the long run by suing customers...

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Dop Sutol

---

You have to be a lawyer, only a lawyer would suggest something, like suing your dissatisfied customers, so that the lawyer can make a profit and the client could be ruined. Yeah, CCP will win in the long run by suing customers...

---

When you intentionally and maliciously defame a company, you are no longer their customer.

---

Originally by: Thull Arcannon

---

What a bunch of malarky.

I happen to be a lawyer, although this kind of law is not my specialty.

The goons have no legal recourse, whatsoever. Any countersuit they would file would be laughed out of court.

Have to love the clueless posting nonsense. There is nothing here but a smoke screen by the goons.

Hope they are sweating it out.

---

Originally by: Imager

---

Goonfleet's lawyer has already guaranteed full exoneration of all the criminal charges levied against its constituents.

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Imager

---

Goonfleet's lawyer has already guaranteed full exoneration of all the criminal charges levied against its constituents.

---

At a guess I bet the "swarm" is safe enough. It's the ringleaders (if anyone) that would need to worry a bit more. Not saying there is even a legal case that could be made against them but if anyone was going to be put up against the wall it'd be them.

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Dop Sutol

---

You have to be a lawyer, only a lawyer would suggest something, like suing your dissatisfied customers, so that the lawyer can make a profit and the client could be ruined. Yeah, CCP will win in the long run by suing customers...

---

When you intentionally and maliciously defame a company, you are no longer their customer.

---

Originally by: Erik Amirault

---

HEY GUYS THIS IS DARK SHIKARI PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

---

Originally by: Dark Shikari

---

Originally by: Dop Sutol

---

You have to be a lawyer, only a lawyer would suggest something, like suing your dissatisfied customers, so that the lawyer can make a profit and the client could be ruined. Yeah, CCP will win in the long run by suing customers...

---

When you intentionally and maliciously defame a company, you are no longer their customer.

---

Originally by: Cadela Fria

---

Edited by: Cadela Fria on 31/05/2007 05:59:32
Edited by: Cadela Fria on 31/05/2007 05:59:07

Originally by: Erik Amirault

---

HEY GUYS THIS IS DARK SHIKARI PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

---

Shouldn't you be studying for court pretty boy?

---

Originally by: Mogrin

---

Anyone here besides me starting to think that these are just empty threats and is simply intended to add the appearance of fake sincerity?

---

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

---

Originally by: Mogrin

---

Anyone here besides me starting to think that these are just empty threats and is simply intended to add the appearance of fake sincerity?

---

Nope.

CCP did not say they are suing anybody. They said they are asking their attornies to look in to possible legal action. Big difference and frankly why wouldn't they? They have a legal department might as well make them work .

And it has been way too short a time for CCP to make a decision on whether they would actually sue or not. The legal eagles will have a lot of research to do then there would be a lot of internal discussion on what to do with the lawyer's recommendations (short of a "don't bother" recommendation). And if they did decide to actually sue then the company will clam up since chatting about on an ongoing legal case seems to be a universal no-no so we likely will not now much if anything about it even if it does happen.

---

Quote:

---

As a long term player of EVE and many other MMOGs, I can tell you that crap like they have been through is almost always orchestrated by the underdogs in any game because of the perceived injustices that result in them sucking so much at playing the game. As they are unable to fathom how their playstyle itself is at fault, they blame everyone else for cheating, botting, hacking, exploiting, or coercing the developers to give them an edge.

Personally, I find it pathetic and I don't envy any MMOG company despite the amount of revenue they can generate. With the broad variety of egos involved, (and not the most stable ones on the planet either), there are bound to be people with tin foils hats on hand that come up with this stuff. Unfortunately for them, the slander campaign they have orchestrated will most probably find the instigators in court facing charges. The outcome of that will mean hefty fines for loss of potential revenue for the company or jail time.

So think twice kiddies and be warned! If you keep getting your arse handed to you on a plate in an MMOG or any game for that matter, I'd put a large sum of money up that it's a 3% chance of hacking, etc and a 97% chance that you suck and need to l2play

---

Originally by: "Mahrin Skel"

---

If we're pets, we're not fluffy, yappy little lapdogs. We're the chewed-up junkyard rottweiler BoB uses to keep the kids out of their yard.

---

Quote:

---

The allegations investigated above by this internal affairs department will also be examined by our legal resources, as we do not intend to sit idly by while our servers, community and reputation are under attack.

---

Originally by: "Mahrin Skel"

---

If we're pets, we're not fluffy, yappy little lapdogs. We're the chewed-up junkyard rottweiler BoB uses to keep the kids out of their yard.

---

Originally by: Souvera Corvus

---

Lets just play the game shall we?

---

Originally by: "Mahrin Skel"

---

If we're pets, we're not fluffy, yappy little lapdogs. We're the chewed-up junkyard rottweiler BoB uses to keep the kids out of their yard.

---

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

---

EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

---

Originally by: Kerfira

---

Grow up. CCP is not located in the US, so 'examined by our legal resources' doesn't necessarily mean lawsuits.

It may be something as simple as examining the EULA to determine whether it gives them the basis for banning every single Goon who participated in the attack in the weekend...

Personally, I hope they do...

---

Originally by: Taerenius

---

This is the first time I've gotten involved in any political post on the forums but I just thought I'd say a few things.

A) It's hilarious how EVERYONE suddenly becomes a lawyer when something like this pops up - people who have a law background that ONLY includes what they've read on wikipedia talk like they've been a professional lawyer for 10 years.

B) CCP has a great game, the fact that anyone would smear them just because things aren't going "their way" just speaks volumes about the type of person(s) they are
.

---

Originally by: cal nereus

---

Edited by: cal nereus on 31/05/2007 06:59:44
Who in their right mind sues their CUSTOMERS? o_O CCP fighting back against legal action makes sense, but CCP filing a lawsuit of their own? Why? Goon talk is just that... Goon talk! If people take it seriously, its not the fault of Goons. CCP can't blame anything on SA either, since SA isn't directly involved in anything related to CCP. What's there to sue over?!

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Originally by: Lianna Grey

---

Just take all their skillpoints, back to 800k ... BAM! now that's a punishment ....

---> not a lawyer expert and all that drama <---

---