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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Nush	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:41:00 - [1] This has just shown up on SiSi, with the new mass you cant fit enough ozone into jump briges to use them and it looks like the warp range has been nerfed down aswell, double warps past 40ly. WHY CCP? WHY!
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:43:00 - [2] Freighters != Haulers, duh
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:52:00 - [3] This is effectively a coup de grace on 0.0 logistics. Thanks a bunch CCP.
pi squad	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:53:00 - [4] hahahahhaha this better be a joke
Havoc GunStar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:56:00 - [5] Edited by: Havoc GunStar on 01/11/2007 20:57:53 So glad I waited a bit to buy that freighter. So this means a Fenrir would take pretty much the max, and the others are useless at jump bridges. Will this impact bridging freighters with Titans? Edit: Looks like his picture host broke, for those listening at home, CCP has applied 10x to the mass of each Freighter.
Elohe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:57:00 - [6] Edited by: Elohe on 01/11/2007 20:57:21 you guys are insane; you like your t2 freighters so much, you will force eveyone to train for them just to have the pleasure of living in 0.0 space?
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:58:00 - [7] Personally, I find the ~5 minute wait trying to align a freighter off a station* to be far too short, what it really needs is an agility mod reduced by a factor of ten, and the mass increased by a factor of ten. Undocking a freighter should be an alliance wide task that cannot be accomplished in less than an hour. *In space it's fine, from a standing start you can just use webs. You're flung out of a station faster than a freighter can go
Sophie Daigneau	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:59:00 - [8] At least I'll be able to use my existing freighter to build a jump freighter so its not a total loss.
pi squad	Posted - 2007.11.01 20:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Havoc GunStar Edited by: Havoc GunStar on 01/11/2007 20:57:53 So glad I waited a bit to buy that freighter. So this means a Fenrir would take pretty much the max, and the others are useless at jump bridges. Will this impact bridging freighters with Titans? Edit: Looks like his picture host broke, for those listening at home, CCP has applied 10x to the mass of each Freighter. and reduced the agility mod by a factor of 10
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:04:00 - [10] Originally by: pi squad and reduced the agility mod by a factor of 10 Nah, lower is better
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:05:00 - [11] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 01/11/2007 21:06:14 Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 01/11/2007 21:05:54 Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 01/11/2007 21:05:45 Originally by: Maxim Powers Originally by: pi squad and reduced the agility mod by a factor of 10 Nah, lower is better this. inertia mod X mass = agility. BSes have low inertias to compensate for their big mass. EDIT: This mass is still stupid tho
Arcord	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:07:00 - [12] CCP went seriously crazy...they really want to kill the game
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Arcord CCP went seriously crazy...they really want to kill the game Apparantly nerfing the money-making capacity of 0.0 to a fairly pathetic amount more than empire wasn't enough to make 0.0 unliveable, good thing that us poor plebs have professionals on the case to make sure the risk:reward is tip top
Stevobob Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:12:00 - [14] This is unbelievable. CCP is like a car company phasing out the old model and forcing us to buy the new one...except they gain absolutely nothing but angered customers by doing it
Krontos Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:13:00 - [15] Wow. Just wow. You may as well just remove 0.0 space from the game at this point. Just give us a few months notice so we can take our stuff, then you can just shut down that part of the game. It's obvious you don't want people living there, so why not just go the extra yard and get rid of it?
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:13:00 - [16] Seriously though, it's one thing to make combat ships incapable of logistics work, but to make logistics ships incapable of logistics work???
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Martin VanBuren Seriously though, it's one thing to make combat ships incapable of logistics work, but to make logistics ships incapable of logistics work??? Carriers aren't supposed to be combat ships, CCP told us
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Maxim Powers Originally by: Martin VanBuren Seriously though, it's one thing to make combat ships incapable of logistics work, but to make logistics ships incapable of logistics work??? Carriers aren't supposed to be combat ships, CCP told us But if they're not supposed to be combat ships and they're not supposed to be logistics ships then :psyduck:
Gorfob	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:18:00 - [19] Why do you hate 0.0 alliances so much? Seriously what sort of drugs are you smoking? Seriously. Jump bridges where made to make life easier for logistics by allowing freighters to mvoe around. Now its destroyed. At least take the ability for titans to jump bridge them then. Fairs fair. Logistics ships != Logistics ships. -dbp
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:18:00 - [20] This... is a joke, right? So now the only viable logistics tools are a pos-basher and a mining ship?
Naja Bo Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:19:00 - [21] Reposting image with non-waffleimages host.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Gorfob Why do you hate 0.0 alliances so much? Seriously what sort of drugs are you smoking? Seriously. Jump bridges where made to make life easier for logistics by allowing freighters to mvoe around. Now its destroyed. At least take the ability for titans to jump bridge them then. Fairs fair. Logistics ships != Logistics ships. They did. Titans can't jump bridge them anymore. I suspect this was done to prevent people from using freighters to make billions of ISK by manipulating NPC buy/sell orders, risk free.
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Xequecal They did. Titans can't jump bridge them anymore. I suspect this was done to prevent people from using freighters to make billions of ISK by manipulating NPC buy/sell orders, risk free. I could not sleep at nights because I thought this might be being done.
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Gorfob Why do you hate 0.0 alliances so much? Seriously what sort of drugs are you smoking? Seriously. Jump bridges where made to make life easier for logistics by allowing freighters to mvoe around. Now its destroyed. At least take the ability for titans to jump bridge them then. Fairs fair. Logistics ships != Logistics ships. They did. Titans can't jump bridge them anymore. I suspect this was done to prevent people from using freighters to make billions of ISK by manipulating NPC buy/sell orders, risk free. it was done because otherwise no one would use the obscenly overprised jump frieghters..... ccp your really mess with a bit to much here. small changes over time would be a better aproach if this is the direction you want to go.
Naja Bo Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Darpz it was done because otherwise no one would use the obscenly overprised jump frieghters..... seriously. if this goes through jump freighters need to be tier 2, not tech 2.
Fenderson Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:33:00 - [26] gee, i wonder if a certain alliance is staging another mass-posting? stfu goons
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Fenderson gee, i wonder if a certain alliance is staging another mass-posting? stfu goons Ya because its Goons who use their multiple titans to jump bridge freighters all the time. Oh wait.
DeadProphet Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:37:00 - [28] Nerfalations III Shaping up to be the worst patch ever?
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:39:00 - [29] Edited by: Maxim Powers on 01/11/2007 21:40:11 Originally by: Fenderson gee, i wonder if a certain alliance is staging another mass-posting? stfu goons 16 post in an hour, this forum can't take the load! Originally by: Nicocat What do goons care about this? Shoo, kiddos. Jump Portal Arrays? The fact that they're killing carriers/motherships for logistics?
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:41:00 - [30] Originally by: DeadProphet Nerfalations III Shaping up to be the worst patch ever? Someone called the whole tech 2 freighter/logistics thing a "Monet of Failure" - I like it. Oh and I'm sure the easiest way to fix an arguably broken NPC buy/sell order combination was to....nerf jump bridging freighters?
Iraf Thaiberd GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:41:00 - [31] I'm not one to scream about the sky falling, but this is getting pretty close. If you want people to utilize the T2 Jump Freighters (which will be obscenely expensive), then you need to make them good enough to use. Nerfing the existing logistics chains upon which all 0.0 empires survive is not only NOT the answer, it's moving in the completely wrong direction.
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:43:00 - [32] Originally by: Maxim Powers Edited by: Maxim Powers on 01/11/2007 21:40:11 Originally by: Nicocat What do goons care about this? Shoo, kiddos. Jump Portal Arrays? The fact that they're killing carriers/motherships for logistics? No, hes right. Whats this jump bridge thingy? Can I shoot it in my rifter?
Tevlent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:43:00 - [33] Edited by: Tevlent on 01/11/2007 21:44:16 I thought jump bridges were initially put in for logistics, but now you cannot even jump bridge any freighter except for the fenrir. Why do you hate us CCP? Freighters will now be 100% worthless in 0.0 space. Even worse off then we were before the Rev3 patch because they now have a maximum warp range of 40 AU, which means they will take forever to fly around.
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:44:00 - [34] This is the last straw. My logistics capability has been completely eliminated in one patch. I was straddling the fence on actually nerfing my credit card but no longer. Three of my accounts have been closed, effective when the subscription period expires. As I complete various obligations on my nine remaining accounts they will be closed as well. 'Eve - the worlds most nerfed universe'
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:45:00 - [35] A withdrawl now makes perfect sense.
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Tevlent Edited by: Tevlent on 01/11/2007 21:44:16 I thought jump bridges were initially put in for logistics, but now you cannot even jump bridge any freighter except for the fenrir. Why do you hate us CCP? Freighters will now be 100% worthless in 0.0 space. Even worse off then we were before the Rev3 patch because they now have a maximum warp range of 40 AU, which means they will take forever to fly around. The funny part is that CCP can't even get it consistently right. I wonder if they will even notice that one of the 4 freighters can still jump bridge.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:49:00 - [37] WTH? Did I wake up in Bizzaro world or something? In this universe, it seems like CCP is actively trying to kill the game. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:50:00 - [38] This is a horrible, horrible idea. CCP, this is your game, but our territories are our work. By making it more difficult to conduct 0.0 logistics you not only harm us, but our enemies as well. Who wants to play a game where the thankless job of logistics is made so difficult that both sides can't effectively fight each other anymore? ...or is that your goal? You're holding Fanfest at this very moment, a gathering to show how close you are with the playerbase...but right now you're only showing how far you wish to stay away.
Tevlent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:51:00 - [39] Edited by: Tevlent on 01/11/2007 21:51:46 CCP needs to stop making EVE a pain to play. No more stupid time and isk sinks. EVE has been so much better since the advent of jump bridges and the ability to actually use freighters in 0.0 space. This nerf will completely undo everything and make all the logistics guys shoot themselves.
Di modial GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:54:00 - [40] I am very glad I have yet to take the time to get into cap ships. They are clearly worthless.
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:55:00 - [41] After reading thru the forums about the various nerfs as they apply to various ships and modules the only conclusion is these devs have totally and completely lost their effing minds.
Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Nicocat What do goons care about this? Shoo, kiddos. I imagine this is fallout from what I heard of the Bobbits running a certain trade route constantly with their titan and a freighter, making billions in an hour or so. If so, well done on the fix. Yes, because making 0.0 logistics far far more difficult was the appropriate way to fix an imbalanced trade route. DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 21:59:00 - [43] lol goons are going ape **** over this signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Cyza	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:01:00 - [44] The only possible reason that I can think they would nerf every single logistics aspect in one patch... is perhaps they want to make things more realistic... where it takes 10-12 support to field 1 fighter. Cause it looks like all of these changes are gearing that way. Make it take 4x as many people to take care of logistics and making money... so that a single person can fight. I like cheese... ~Cyza
Tevlent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:01:00 - [45] Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape **** over this I don't understand how any 0.0 alliance woundn't go apes*hit over this.
WrathOfOprah Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:01:00 - [46] Edited by: WrathOfOprah on 01/11/2007 22:02:28 Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape **** over this True. But this affects everybody. And believe it or not, most of us don't want to have to go find another MMO to play. Not if we can help it.
Frodo Teabaggins Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:02:00 - [47] CCP must like to shoot themself in the foot. ______________________________ How big is ur pvpness?
Frodo Teabaggins Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:03:00 - [48] Edited by: Frodo Teabaggins on 01/11/2007 22:03:15 delete me. ______________________________ How big is ur pvpness?
Jomin Herdsy GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:03:00 - [49] You guys obviously are not sharing the vision of EVE CCP always have had. The game was never meant to have alliances in 0.0.
Loco Apophis Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:03:00 - [50] Now I have seen it all, goons caring about a game, and specially the carebear part of it. Halseth Durn > We are an alliance that wants to be left alone
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:04:00 - [51] Edited by: HydroSan on 01/11/2007 22:03:57 Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape **** over this Looking at the sov map, it appears Triumvirate owns a fair chunk of land. I guess you don't grasp just how hard it will be to live in those shiny new stations you guys got yourselves a few months ago. Do you like the thought of escorting slow-as-hell, double-jumping freighters from lowsec to each station system you own? No? Then you'd be against this.
Nicocat Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:06:00 - [52] Originally by: WrathOfOprah Edited by: WrathOfOprah on 01/11/2007 22:02:28 Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape ** over this True. But this affects everybody. And believe it or not, most of us don't want to have to go find another MMO to play. Not if we can help it. Still not done ting this one up yet? =P ---------------- Originally by:** Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:06:00 - [53] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 01/11/2007 22:03:57 Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape **** over this Looking at the sov map, it appears Triumvirate owns a fair chunk of land. I guess you don't grasp just how hard it will be to live in those shiny new stations you guys got yourselves a few months ago. Do you like the thought of escorting slow-as-hell, double-jumping freighters from lowsec to each station system you own? No? Then you'd be against this. Im gonna enjoy tangible supply lines (ie. ima kill ur freighters) (I cant beleive youd leave game over this ahahahahh) signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:07:00 - [54] WTF!!! That is better some halloween joke. First CCP tries to nerf mineral compression - fails. Then CCP tries to nerf carriers - fails. Now CCP tries to nerf freighters - ??? Why, why, why!! CCP, why don't you see that this is absolutely unnecessary and unwanted? Oh yeah, right. They nerf stuff so that people are forced to use their new ships (t2 freighter) - because otherwise they would be too crappy so that no one uses them or what?? Give the new ships you introduce a good bonus, and everyone will consider to train for them. Also: how the heck are we supposed to invent t2 freighters for a reasonable price (below 15 bil)? Same with the t2 BS, they won't be sold for less than 1 billion. That all is sutpid, stupid and makes no sense. And why destroy the small people, again?!! Not everyone has that many numbers as the goons, who can just jump 100 iterons V instead of a few freighters. The small corps/alliances can jump a freighter - or leave. Don't favour always the big!!
Fenderson Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Maxim Powers Edited by: Maxim Powers on 01/11/2007 21:40:11 Originally by: Fenderson gee, i wonder if a certain alliance is staging another mass-posting? stfu goons 16 post in an hour, this forum can't take the load! lol i love how 4/5 of the replies are goons and you try to deny it. obviously if they are going to introduce jump freighters this is a totally logical nerf. whether you think jump freighters are too expensive is subjective. i would say that they should be really expensive since they can easily station tank and never be voulnerable.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Fenderson lol i love how 4/5 of the replies are goons and you try to deny it. obviously if they are going to introduce jump freighters this is a totally logical nerf. whether you think jump freighters are too expensive is subjective. i would say that they should be really expensive since they can easily station tank and never be voulnerable. No one is denying that many Goonswarm members have posted in this thread so far, and will continue to post later in this thread. Maybe if you actually held space you'd know how ******** this idea is.
WrathOfOprah Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:11:00 - [57] Originally by: Rockbox Im gonna enjoy tangible supply lines (ie. ima kill ur freighters) Your an idiot. And you need to go have a chat with a logistics guy in yours or any other 0.0 and get an idea of what they actually do. Also, if you want to attack "supply lines" go siege the system they have the JB in.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:12:00 - [58] riiiight /me trains alt for jump freighter
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:12:00 - [59] Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Ikma Freizen Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:12:00 - [60] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 01/11/2007 22:03:57 Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape **** over this Looking at the sov map, it appears Triumvirate owns a fair chunk of land. I guess you don't grasp just how hard it will be to live in those shiny new stations you guys got yourselves a few months ago. Do you like the thought of escorting slow-as-hell, double-jumping freighters from lowsec to each station system you own? No? Then you'd be against this. Tri POSes are fueled by honour and KD ratios.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:14:00 - [61] Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:15:00 - [62] Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? go ask him what he thinks of this. You don't even need wolf packs to cut supply lines with these changes. The supply lines ARE cut, jesus.
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:15:00 - [63] Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Jiks Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:16:00 - [64] Umm. In the earlier OMG they are nerfing carrier logistics threads the few who thought that was a good idea were saying to use freighters. Now this, making jump bridges a no-no and normal space routes 3+ times more time consuming ... even in empire as far as I can tell. Same questions as before from me - how will this help anyone? How does this improve the game? Plus, CCP, have you totally lost your collective minds? Jiks
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:16:00 - [65] I'm guessing this is an attempt to force alliances to mine ice/ore from their own regions to support their industry, rather than jumping all their fuel and supplies in from empire. Maybe there will be uber ice along with uber veldspar when they boost 0.0 mining. _____ CPU Love
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:17:00 - [66] Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V sorry, my bad. nice troll i guess
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:18:00 - [67] Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V Sorry I forgot that being around people who can hold space is new for you.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Fenderson Originally by: Maxim Powers Edited by: Maxim Powers on 01/11/2007 21:40:11 Originally by: Fenderson gee, i wonder if a certain alliance is staging another mass-posting? stfu goons 16 post in an hour, this forum can't take the load! lol i love how 4/5 of the replies are goons and you try to deny it. obviously if they are going to introduce jump freighters this is a totally logical nerf. whether you think jump freighters are too expensive is subjective. i would say that they should be really expensive since they can easily station tank and never be voulnerable. Subjective? Since when are costs of between 3 and 6 billion and build times of 1-2 months 'subjectively' acceptable?
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:18:00 - [69] Originally by: Santa Anna I'm guessing this is an attempt to force alliances to mine ice/ore from their own regions to support their industry, rather than jumping all their fuel and supplies in from empire. Maybe there will be uber ice along with uber veldspar when they boost 0.0 mining. Can't mine uranium, mechanical parts or any of the other npc seeded crap.
Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:19:00 - [70] Originally by: Santa Anna I'm guessing this is an attempt to force alliances to mine ice/ore from their own regions to support their industry, rather than jumping all their fuel and supplies in from empire. Maybe there will be uber ice along with uber veldspar when they boost 0.0 mining. Where exactly are all the NPC goods used in POSes going to come from? The POS faeries that reside in 0.0? DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:20:00 - [71] Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V Sorry I forgot that being around people who can hold space is new for you. Hey at least im not strokin an epeen. Tbh the sky is not falling, adapt or die. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Krontos Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:23:00 - [72] Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V Ok think about this: EVE just became a lot more time consuming and boring for these guys. Also a lot of your POS's are going to go offline while your logistics guys train Freighter V. Oh and freighter BPCs take a month to make so the supply of Tech 2 freighters will be VERY limited, hope your alliance is lucky enough to buy one. Even assuming they're all lucky enough, they still have to spend more time jumping the same amount since Jump Freighters have half the range of a carrier so the trip will take twice as many jumps. Of course this is assuming that they all have the dedication to make their jobs as logistics guys even more time-consuming that they already are. Some of them think 1 job is enough and will stop being logistics guys or cancel their subscriptions. Now tell me about how this improves the game. Ok go!
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:23:00 - [73] Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Santa Anna I'm guessing this is an attempt to force alliances to mine ice/ore from their own regions to support their industry, rather than jumping all their fuel and supplies in from empire. Maybe there will be uber ice along with uber veldspar when they boost 0.0 mining. Can't mine uranium, mechanical parts or any of the other npc seeded crap. Yeah. I'm of the opinion that crap should be dropped from the game entirely or, at the very least, BPO's should be seeded. What % by volume do these make up, anyway? If you mine for fuel locally you may be able to cover the npc stuff with jump bridge-aided itty 5's and a similar number of total runs. (Mining would still be a ridiculous chore on top of the already painful task of pos maintenance) _____ CPU Love
Tevlent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:24:00 - [74] Edited by: Tevlent on 01/11/2007 22:25:22 Originally by: Rockbox Hey at least im not strokin an epeen. Tbh the sky is not falling, adapt or die. Okay, this isn't COAD..we don't need to be trolling here. I think I can say this with confidence that all 0.0 alliances will be greatly affected by this freighter nerf and trying to deny it will not solve anything.
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:25:00 - [75] Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:26:20 Originally by: Krontos Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V Ok think about this: EVE just became a lot more time consuming and boring for these guys. Also a lot of your POS's are going to go offline while your logistics guys train Freighter V. Oh and freighter BPCs take a month to make so the supply of Tech 2 freighters will be VERY limited, hope your alliance is lucky enough to buy one. Even assuming they're all lucky enough, they still have to spend more time jumping the same amount since Jump Freighters have half the range of a carrier so the trip will take twice as many jumps. Of course this is assuming that they all have the dedication to make their jobs as logistics guys even more time-consuming that they already are. Some of them think 1 job is enough and will stop being logistics guys or cancel their subscriptions. Now tell me about how this improves the game. Ok go! Thin out your POS network. Grassroots skirmishing might be drifting into style, most wont remember it but it pwned. signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:26:00 - [76] Originally by: Rockbox Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V Sorry I forgot that being around people who can hold space is new for you. Hey at least im not strokin an epeen. Tbh the sky is not falling, adapt or die. I think it's understandable that you're like this. Your side didn't use to control space, you nailed down some victories, you think you're a lean mean fighting machine. It's true too. However, you need to realize that fueling space is a huge timesink, and you need to thank your logistics crew every day when you wake up. And this will just make them want to cry. And when your logistics crew is unhappy, you can be sure that you'll be very unhappy soon. Finally, once something goes live, it takes 6 months for it change Given all the above, I hope you can undertand where everyone here is coming from.
Tek'a Rain Gallente Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:27:00 - [77] worrying part is that ccp has not arrived to assure us (without actually making any statements) that its not a planned change. they will mention crystal balls, etc. but why would there be any change in this stat if they were not even Considering such an epic nerf? a plan to worry people, then make them grateful when frieghters are only made 9.9 times more massive? this isnt a goony issue, its a playability issue and enjoyability issue.
Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:27:00 - [78] Originally by: Tevlent Originally by: Rockbox Hey at least im not strokin an epeen. Tbh the sky is not falling, adapt or die. Okay, this isn't COAD..we don't need to be trolling here. I think I can say this with confidence that all 0.0 alliances will be greatly affected by this. Not to mention adapt or die is an even more trite and worthless come back than anything the goons could dream up. Seriously, CCP looks poised to add a series of changes that make what is already the most tedious and boring part of the game far far worse. Its a dumb change and people are rightly calling for it to be revoked. If CCP suddenly got a hard on for removing all battleships and T2 mods would you suddenly just be like 'welp, guess I better adapt or die'? I would guess not. DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Lostshadow	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:28:00 - [79] They may be nerfing freighters badly, but as some kind of joke they have now increased the warp speed from 0.6 to 0.7 au/sec. We may have to warp 3 or 4 times to cross some systems, but at least when we're not accelerating into warp or dropping out of warp we're moving ever so slightly faster. Somehow it doesn't make up for the nerfing though... I think CCP must be 5 months ahead of the rest of the world because this definately seems like an April fools joke!
Rockbox Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:29:00 - [80] Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:30:15 Originally by: Swamp Ziro I think it's understandable that you're like this. Your side didn't use to control space, you nailed down some victories, you think you're a lean mean fighting machine. It's true too. However, you need to realize that fueling space is a huge timesink, and you need to thank your logistics crew every day when you wake up. And this will just make them want to cry. And when your logistics crew is unhappy, you can be sure that you'll be very unhappy soon. Finally, once something goes live, it takes 6 months for it change Given all the above, I hope you can undertand where everyone here is coming from. Thanks for the first non offensive reply, I sympathize with large space holders a bit, but with no aims to become part of one I am very biased toward the change. the rest of the goons dont make a very solid and persuasive case when the whole argument is rife with F.U. because u dont agree. (ie props t u) im going to break the pyrimid because it wa getting out of hand signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Bu Jinkan Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:30:00 - [81] Edited by: Bu Jinkan on 01/11/2007 22:29:56 how about we just go back to the bad old days of fueling 5 regions with Iteron Vs right after downtime?
Vanye Inovske Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:32:00 - [82] Originally by: Lostshadow They may be nerfing freighters badly, but as some kind of joke they have now increased the warp speed from 0.6 to 0.7 au/sec. We may have to warp 3 or 4 times to cross some systems, but at least when we're not accelerating into warp or dropping out of warp we're moving ever so slightly faster. Somehow it doesn't make up for the nerfing though... I think CCP must be 5 months ahead of the rest of the world because this definately seems like an April fools joke! It's always been 0.7 AU/s
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:32:00 - [83] Seriously you have just ruined 0.0 logistics and made living in 0.0 an even bigger pain in the arse than it was, you bang on about wanting more and more people to inhabit 0.0 yet make it more and more boring and difficult to do it. I really wonder why you are trying to kill your own game, you are planning on stopping mom/carriers from hualing stuff, freighters can no longer use jump bridges, titan's can now no longer be used to jump bridge freighters. You are not only ruining jumps bridges but once again nerfing titans and almost making them worthless, I seriously suggest you wake up and start firing the people that keep coming up with these stupid ideas thats that no one wants. The CCP of today is clearly nothing like the CCP of 2/3 years ago, I like alot of other people are starting to think if its even worth subscribing to this game anymore
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:34:00 - [84] The POS network cant be thinned out. CCCP is the one that decided to create POS warfare the way it is now. From anchoring, to fueling, to unanchoring, to maintaining they are one giant time sink. As many have already said, the care and feeding of POSs are a second job. This is a game...not a chore. They are needlessly creating hardship in 0.0 logistics and making no comments anywhere as to why they find this acceptable.
Tevlent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:35:00 - [85] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Seriously you have just ruined 0.0 logistics and made living in 0.0 an even bigger pain in the arse than it was, you bang on about wanting more and more people to inhabit 0.0 yet make it more and more boring and difficult to do it. I really wonder why you are trying to kill your own game, you are planning on stopping mom/carriers from hualing stuff, freighters can no longer use jump bridges, titan's can now no longer be used to jump bridge freighters. You are not only ruining jumps bridges but once again nerfing titans and almost making them worthless, I seriously suggest you wake up and start firing the people that keep coming up with these stupid ideas thats that no one wants. The CCP of today is clearly nothing like the CCP of 2/3 years ago, I like alot of other people are starting to think if its even worth subscribing to this game anymore Exactly. It isn't like most carrier pilots will see combat 24/7, a lot of carrier pilots in GS do empire runs and help resupply our markets in their spare time with their multi-billion isk ships. The nerf CCP would put in would basically grind 0.0 alliances to a halt.
Krontos Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:35:00 - [86] Edited by: Krontos on 01/11/2007 22:38:29 Originally by: Rockbox Thin out your POS network. Grassroots skirmishing might be drifting into style, most wont remember it but it pwned. No I really do get where you're coming from. You're hoping that this will make it be like the 'old days', but not really. Thinning out POS networks just increases the chance of spam occuring. Sure, it'll take 3 or 4 times as long, but if you think that's gonna stop the hardcore you're wrong. You're handing the agressor a mechanic where all they have to do is invest time and they pretty much have a garuanteed win in hand. The only counter is for you to invest even more time than they do to have 51 percent coverage or at least enough to ward off someone spamming you. And if that is CCP's goal they're going about it in an awfully ham-fisted manner, there are any other number of ways to reduce overall POS coverage. Most of them would be welcomed by POS guys. So for the record, you feel that logistics should, at minimum, involve twice the amount of time per tower that it does now, because this will improve small skirmish warfare. You are also fine that there will be a 1 to 2 month gap after patch where no one will be able to fuel towers other than freighter convoys (have fun on those, they're a hoot!) or running beaucoup haulers. I'm all for reducing the number of towers involved, but this isn't the way to do it. Change POS mechanics to require less towers to have a secure hold on a system, reduce moon counts, whatever. Trying to reduce numbers of tower by making it too much work to bother running them is fairly nonsensical. Editing to make this less combative because it really wasn't that appropriate.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:35:00 - [87] A withdrawl now makes perfect sense.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:36:00 - [88] Edited by: Martin VanBuren on 01/11/2007 22:38:22 Originally by: Bu Jinkan Edited by: Bu Jinkan on 01/11/2007 22:29:56 how about we just go back to the bad old days of fueling 5 regions with Iteron Vs right after downtime? Yeah dude npc 0.0 warfare for teh win Once more, saying "Good I hate logistics anyway" is not valid criticism when we're talking about a logistics nerf. It's like agreeing with the removal of npc rats because you make your money through datacores.
Stevobob Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:37:00 - [89] Originally by: Traxio Nacho I like alot of other people are starting to think if its even worth subscribing to this game anymore QFT
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:38:00 - [90] Originally by: Traxio Nacho I seriously suggest you wake up and start firing the people that keep coming up with these stupid ideas thats that no one wants. signed
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:42:00 - [91] the 5 fighter thing was enough to make me think the current design team doesn't understand the game. The latest carrier nerf followed by this gem confirms it for me.
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:43:00 - [92] Originally by: Fenderson lol i love how 4/5 of the replies are goons and you try to deny it. I said that there were 16 posts from guys with Goonswarm tickers, which there were. With 20 posts per page, that means that 16/20 posts were from goonswarm. Now, I have to admit that I'm a physicist rather than a mathematician, but last I checked 16/20 was equal to 4/5. And hey, if our servers only had to cope with the 16 posts in an hour that accompanies goon mass posting, maybe we wouldn't have to spend so much on them.
Frodo Teabaggins Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:53:00 - [93] Edited by: Frodo Teabaggins on 01/11/2007 22:53:53 Im thinking CCP has a nerf dart board, and when they feel an itch for a nerf, they all gather around the board and throw a few darts. Looks like freighters got chosen this today. ______________________________ How big is ur pvpness?
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 22:55:00 - [94] Originally by: Frodo Teabaggins Edited by: Frodo Teabaggins on 01/11/2007 22:53:53 Im thinking CCP has a nerf dart board, and when they feel an itch for a nerf, they all gather around the board and throw a few darts. Looks like freighters got chosen this today. I think their darts are stuck on "logistics"
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:03:00 - [95] This argument that this only affects space-holding is false. This affects everyone in EVE who has ever sold anything built from minerals. If this goes live, it will become far harder to fuel the mineral needs to build caps and super-caps. Many logisticians will figure it's not worth their time to spend 20 hours every weekend flying freighters around while they wait the 5 or 6 months it will take for the 20% success rate of invention on what will then be 400 mil freighter bpcs to catch up with demand. They will quit doing what their doing. See, caps won't only become more expensive, but they will be rare. Great, you say, but the demand for ALL minerals will drop greatly, the market will seriously tank and I will become poor. Oh, and my fenrir has always warped at 0.6. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Nush	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:05:00 - [96] I think the only reason they can be doing these changes is so that the big alliences crumble back to 1/8th of their current size so that empire corps have the chance to move into 0.0 Having said that said Empire corp now have to either have the manpower to escort T1 freighters or mine enough veld to buy a T2 one. The nerf really makes it look like they dont want Jump Bridges being used for anything but combat ships. This is a very strange time to be in eve as there is no offical word on what will be happening. There is already a large question over Carriers/Moms and now with T1 freighters being called into question. Its more concerning that the patch in 4 days dont have any patch note left, could CCP be trying to stealth nerf T1 freighters in this patch? :tinfoil:
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:09:00 - [97] Originally by: Nush Its more concerning that the patch in 4 days dont have any patch note left, could CCP be trying to stealth nerf T1 freighters in this patch? :tinfoil: this would be hilarious, in a black humor sort of way
War Games Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:09:00 - [98] I think with the carrier nerf... and the freighter nerf... we need an explaination of the direction of 0.0 alliances. This is just unbelievable... especially with no warning of why it's being done. I'm hoping it's a bug... Ok you want to lessen the warping power to make it longer to use tech 1 freighters... but making them unjumpable at POSes... please start in Jita... and time how long it takes with the new freighter to get to (delve) or (omist) or (drone region) or (venal) and realize that's how long it's gonna take to move a new station egg. This isn't a case of adapting either... cuz you are taking away all jumping power except from tech 2 freighters (so we are gonna need 3 pilots for the job 1 does now) Have you run large alliances... no one but the crazy mofo's want to play Logistics-Online as it is. I understand you don't want industry in the game, but you are gonna chase off the hardcore industrialists who train these skills. The PVPers aren't gonna be bothererd. Might as well just spawn one PVP ship every downtime in everyone's hangar and remove industrial skills altogether. What Gaming Dev's really think of you!
Eloryan Persago The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:10:00 - [99] Edited by: Eloryan Persago on 01/11/2007 23:10:21 How can this plan fail? Total unadulterated genius I have to say, okay you want people to use jump freighters we get the idea, but can you just lay off the current ways of Empire -> 0.0 transportation until people have had time to invent them maybe?
ardik TunkbwahCorp	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:12:00 - [100] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Seriously you have just ruined 0.0 logistics and made living in 0.0 an even bigger pain in the arse than it was, you bang on about wanting more and more people to inhabit 0.0 yet make it more and more boring and difficult to do it. I really wonder why you are trying to kill your own game, you are planning on stopping mom/carriers from hualing stuff, freighters can no longer use jump bridges, titan's can now no longer be used to jump bridge freighters. You are not only ruining jumps bridges but once again nerfing titans and almost making them worthless, I seriously suggest you wake up and start firing the people that keep coming up with these stupid ideas thats that no one wants. The CCP of today is clearly nothing like the CCP of 2/3 years ago, I like alot of other people are starting to think if its even worth subscribing to this game anymore Typical GOON alt response
Andre Ricard Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:19:00 - [101] Edited by: Andre Ricard on 01/11/2007 23:19:55 This current thread is Goon-heavy because news of this just hit our internal forums today and obviously we're going a little crazy over it. This is a pretty terrible nerf for any major 0.0 alliance, or for anyone who owns a freigher really. People understand that these things can no longer warp further than 30AU without stopping in warp and then having to wait for the cap to recharge? That they can no longer practically use POS jump bridges and absolutely cannot use Titan bridges? If this is some kind of attempt at dealing with heavy POS use, it's the weirdest, most roundabout way they could go about it. Also I suspect BoB/MC/GBC/other response to this will get quite heavy as well as news filters out; this is as bad for BoB, for Red Alliance, for the drone region guys, for anyone in deep 0.0 as it is for us. ----- Character back under original management.
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:19:00 - [102] Has anyone mentioned yet that this change is bloody stupid? Because this change is bloody stupid. "CCP: We never intended for freighters to actually carry freight" is what this boils down to. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:20:00 - [103] Edited by: Shirei on 01/11/2007 23:21:24 nm.
ardik TunkbwahCorp	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:24:00 - [104] Originally by: Nevada Tan Has anyone mentioned yet that this change is bloody stupid? Because this change is bloody stupid. "CCP: We never intended for freighters to actually carry freight" is what this boils down to. freighters != industrials
Mariko Akashi GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:28:00 - [105] Originally by: Nevada Tan Has anyone mentioned yet that this change is bloody stupid? Because this change is bloody stupid. "CCP: We never intended for freighters to actually carry freight" is what this boils down to. "CCP: We never intended for our game to be playable" has been the message lately.
Zeph Solaris Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:30:00 - [106] This means my stockpile of high-end ores/minerals are going to go up in price right? ^_^ ?
Neslo Gallente DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:31:00 - [107] Originally by: Mariko Akashi Originally by: Nevada Tan Has anyone mentioned yet that this change is bloody stupid? Because this change is bloody stupid. "CCP: We never intended for freighters to actually carry freight" is what this boils down to. "CCP: We never intended for our game to be playable" has been the message lately. "CCP: Let's release this while they are at fanfest... maybe they won't notice" From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
Sanneke GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:34:00 - [108] Originally by: Kayl Breinhar This is a horrible, horrible idea. CCP, this is your game, but our territories are our work. By making it more difficult to conduct 0.0 logistics you not only harm us, but our enemies as well. Who wants to play a game where the thankless job of logistics is made so difficult that both sides can't effectively fight each other anymore? ...or is that your goal? You're holding Fanfest at this very moment, a gathering to show how close you are with the playerbase...but right now you're only showing how far you wish to stay away. anything that can make Kayl Breinhar cry this hard can't be all bad kudos to CCP for yet another job well done
Goca KAOS. Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:42:00 - [109] A serious question, did they fire all the old developers? Yeah they did some dumb things in the past, no question, but nothing that was game breaking like these changes they are talking about.. I really really wanna know what game these people are playing because evidently it is NOT this ***** game.. They want us to post helpful things in these threads.. how the are we supposed to do that? You are introducing GAME BREAKING ideas here, can you people not get that through your head? Are you so stubborn to believe that these thousands of replies telling you "NO" are just a bunch of whiners who are going to lose their "pwnmobiles" and their "easy way" of doing things? I agree with some that devs should not always follow the "whiners" but this is not a case of just a few people whining, this is some of the biggest and longest running names in this goddamn game, not to mention threads runnin into the 100's upon 100s of pages with 1000's of people in which an almost unanimous stating "NO, G0DDAMIT NO!!", is prevalent in every one.. I would strongly recommend pulling your heads out of your asses and really assessing what you are trying to do to this game.. On the other hand, if you don't care what your subscribers say, then pull the plug on this game right now, so we don't have to watch the slow demise of what was once a grand and fun game.. Your choice CCP, either you give a ** or you don't.. there is no gray area here..
Di Jiensai Gallente Domination. League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:42:00 - [110] Can i have your stuff..ehm..Freighters then?
Dred Tather Caldari Warp Riders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:43:00 - [111] Have to say, but haven't you missed the point of jump bridge arrays? yes they have many uses, but one of the most useful is rapid troop deployment. if you want your freighter from highsec to lowsec so badly, escort it in a fleet op. most people are going to flee from a 40 man gang escorting a freighter. and for all everyone knows, CCP may have made a typo. Just relax, and let the devs explain in due course.
Toffles GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:44:00 - [112] Edited by: Toffles on 01/11/2007 23:46:21 I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but the biggest problem with freighters double/triple/quadruple jumping is that after every jump they'll have to wait several minutes for their cap to charge up from 0%. Moving a freighter even 30 jumps will take 6-7 hours (rough estimate). Deep space 0.0 locations are out of the question since it will literally take you 3-4 days worth of playing sessions just to get your freighter there. And then you've got your return trip. I guess CCP want people to mine their own ice, and their own low ends out in 0.0. The problem is, they've already made 0.0 space so ****ty, it's not even worth fighting over/occupying. Lets see: -Complexes got nerfed -Mining/drone ratting got nerfed due to high ends devaluing. -Moon mining will become much more difficult with the logistics nerf. And "good" moons can be found in npc space and low sec (afaik), so why bother doing it in conquerable space. -0.0 markets are getting nerfed. Replacing your battleship means a 1-2 hour shopping trip to empire because the ones sold in 0.0 will probably be very expensive. So what does that leave? Just npc'ing as far as I can tell. You might as well move to stain or curse and rat there. Really, if CCP expects people to spend hundreds of billions of isk, and months of boredom on pos wars (made more boring and tedious with every change, ex. constellation sov.) they need to make these regions worth living in.
Crovan Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:44:00 - [113] Edited by: Crovan on 01/11/2007 23:44:00 Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:15:23 Originally by: Dramaticus Originally by: Rockbox Edited by: Rockbox on 01/11/2007 22:12:26 Originally by: Swamp Ziro Originally by: Rockbox I can see it now, wolf packs surrounding and cutting alliances off logistically do you even know the name of the people fueling your poses? Yeah his name is Greg why? He's going to commit suicide lol it's not one guy u twit Oh stop whining and train freighter V At least remove your alliance name on your forum posts so that you stop embarrassing them with your posting. People have put up pages of thoughtful posts detailing why this is a horrendous idea and why T2 freighters are not a workable solution. Personally, I am going to hold onto the faint hope that this is some typo/Sisi joke. I mean, first carriers and now this. Couple this with the rumor about not allowing carriers to carry ships with cargo and...welp.... I see the point...maybe, but this is overboard. I'll reiterate what I said in the carrier thread. This is what happens when the lowsec carebear crybabies (and pirate crybabies) are listened to. Sure, they post their mini-threadnoughts on EGD, but remember CCP that the big boys tend not to hang out as much, and the ones who try are bored to tears by the incessant whining of people who refuse to learn to play the game, but would rather ** and moan to get CCP to hold their hands while they play in their sandbox. Will it make pvp more interesting? Sure...until you realize that ship prices are likely to double due to the price explosion + scarcity of Trit that will ensue. I thought the goal was to make low-ends more worth mining. This is not making the low-ends worthwhile, it is lowering mining lasers into our hole inside a basket. "It mines the veld in its space, or else we ** upon your face."
Adunh Slavy KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:47:00 - [114] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 01/11/2007 23:47:24 Let's hope it is a typo, someone maybe mashed the "0" one too many times. :hope: If it is not a typo, it'll take 30 minutes to turn one of these thigns around and still be knocked off course by a rifter. -AS The Real Space Initiative
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:47:00 - [115] Don't forget that anything that requires reactions from moon mining will also skyrocket in price. The freighter nerf hurts everyone, makes the game far less enjoyable.
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:47:00 - [116] Originally by: Zeph Solaris This means my stockpile of high-end ores/minerals are going to go up in price right? ^_^ ? No. Low-ends will go up, anf high-ends will drop to compensate, keeping end-product prices more or less the same. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Bu Jinkan Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:52:00 - [117] jesus christ CCP, why don't you just tell us what you're trying to do instead of making everyone freak out when you make a sudden change on sisi?
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:54:00 - [118] Originally by: Nevada Tan Originally by: Zeph Solaris This means my stockpile of high-end ores/minerals are going to go up in price right? ^_^ ? No. Low-ends will go up, anf high-ends will drop to compensate, keeping end-product prices more or less the same. Great, then I can live in high-sec and make as much money as I would in 0.0 without taking any risks. Oh wait a second... ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Keeper O'Secrets	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:55:00 - [119] Originally by: Bu Jinkan jesus christ CCP, why don't you just tell us what you're trying to do instead of making everyone freak out when you make a sudden change on sisi? because all the devs are playing other mmos and trying to make eve the same... "too busy testing changes" will be the official answer i sopose
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:56:00 - [120] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Nevada Tan Originally by: Zeph Solaris This means my stockpile of high-end ores/minerals are going to go up in price right? ^_^ ? No. Low-ends will go up, anf high-ends will drop to compensate, keeping end-product prices more or less the same. Great, then I can live in high-sec and make as much money as I would in 0.0 without taking any risks. Oh wait a second... Pretty much, yeah. All that effort CCP put into the sovereignty changes, and then their next patch will drive everyone back into Empire. Bravo! ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Keeper O'Secrets	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:58:00 - [121] does this mean i should dig out the veldspar mining crystal IIs i have layin around?
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:01:00 - [122] /me giggles. I highly endorse this nurf! I'm so glad I have less space to maintain. On a side note there are other space MMOs. right around the corner hold in there salvation from CCP incompetence is not too far away. Z Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
PauZotoh Zhaan Teylas Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:06:00 - [123] so Titans gonna be useless after this nerf:) So carriers/moms useless for hauling stuff after nerf. Then titans useless with frieghter nerf. LOL this game isnt funny anymore.
Kilostream Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:11:00 - [124] Awww come on, CCP!! What is it with the constant attempts to alienate the playerbase? I don't know exactly what your grand vision for the future of eve really is - but I think you should appreciate that making logistics even more of a pain in the as than it already is is NOT the way to go..... I'm not just speaking from a self-serving perspective, I am sure that every alliance has, at it's core, some truly awesome people who pour everything into maintaining it's infrastructure - the sovereignty system to use jump bridges to ease freighter movements should be just reward for the colossal effort put in to get the infrastructure there in the first place. Please look at what has to be achieved to get this infrastructure in place, acknowledge the gargantuan effort people are already* putting in to achieve the result, and don't cr*p on them from such a height by making the hard-won jump bridges useless for freighters. This is a tremendously hard nerf to take, and to think that you are subjecting us to it simply to create a role for a t2 freighter is disapponting, to say the least. Couple this with the carrier nerf coming up, your 0.0 resident alliance players, which probably have amongst them your longest playing, most loyal customers will begin to realise that the summer of EvE is over, and that soon, the reward vs risk is becoming less and less worth it, and the effort required to achieve any sort of result will soon become too much. I posted in the carrier nerf thread, and I'm posting in this: please reconsider this awful, horrific idea.
Vim Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:12:00 - [125] Look behind you ccp, I think thats your brain on the road. /* Whats a guy got to do to get a smile off around here */
Marius Duvall Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:14:00 - [126] Jesus Christ, this is epic amounts of stupid. --- Originally by: "Reticenti" Oh, one note to Scius, you have made Goons and BoB agree on something. Good job.
Natalie Jax Indecision Industries	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:18:00 - [127] The point of this game is to have fun. It wasn't fun before, and carriers were used rather often for that purpose. It isn't fun now, where you still need a fleet to escort the Freighters and wait for them to slug at their whopping 0.7au/s across 100+ au systems. Now you're forcing people to run Freighter ops via jumpgates, and making them even slower. There is nothing fun about Freighter ops. Never was, and never will be. Thanks CCP.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:18:00 - [128] This stupid nerfing without an inside knowledge of the game must stop!! This completely fits into the row of really BAD attempts to change the game where NO CHANGE IS NEEDED! What is wrong with freighters as they are currently?? Why are they not allowed to jump more than 50 AU (i just tried it on test server with obelisk and warp op V)? CCP is going to destroy the high sec traders. So lots less trading, fewer people in Jita, less demand on their cluster. Need for speed?? *** you! If you want need for speed, throw out 75% of your customers and then the servers will work fine again. Go ahead, you are on a good way. This change is completely UNWANTED and UNNECESSARY! There is no reason at all for this change. Punching the high sec traders into the face, why? Making it so much more difficult for the 0.0 alliances, why? I have lost faith into CCP The only hope I have is that the high ranks there will seriously talk with the responsible dev team and stop this ridiculous nerfing. Every week some more stupid nerf than the next... First mineral compression. Then the carriers/motherships. Now the freighter. Next maybe they nerf the BS because it can shoot people? If something is working right, then it is freighters!!
Bu Jinkan Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:20:00 - [129] If I have to do another 40 jump freighter op I am going to kill myself. My life is in your hands, CCP.
Carsidava Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:24:00 - [130] Edited by: Carsidava on 02/11/2007 00:24:55 Originally by: Dred Tather Have to say, but haven't you missed the point of jump bridge arrays? yes they have many uses, but one of the most useful is rapid troop deployment. if you want your freighter from highsec to lowsec so badly, escort it in a fleet op. most people are going to flee from a 40 man gang escorting a freighter. and for all everyone knows, CCP may have made a typo. Just relax, and let the devs explain in due course. A typo that's coincidentally balanced out by another typo to make the align time the same before and after the change? Also, the mere fact that you even thought that freighter escorts are a "fix" to this is a clear sign that you haven't thought about this at all, or have never participated in a freighter op. With increased mass comes decreased warp distances, so freighters will have to double/triple/quadruple jump some systems. A 100AU jump takes ages as it is; with this change a 100AU system would take forever for a freighter to cross. And with the carrier nerf you'd have to do daily freighter ops. Multiple freighter ops every single day for some of the larger alliances. When are you supposed to actually have any fun when you're too busy escorting freighters all over the place all the time?
Nevada Tan	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:24:00 - [131] Fan Fair this weekend, right? Could be...entertaining. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing.
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:28:00 - [132] Increasing their mass was one thing, but making them use all their cap when warping? I agree with whoever said the new freighters should be Tier 2 rather than Tech 2. Having to train Freighter V (rank 10 skill) is beyond not even funny -----
Grayton GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:46:00 - [133] CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Keeper O'Secrets Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:50:00 - [134] /signed - maby thats the reason they arnt bothering to respond to anyone anymore... cos they know that everyone else knows its bull **** ------------------------------------ how do you make a custom signature? oh its this box...
pi squad	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:53:00 - [135] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID i've said it before and i'll say it again LISTEN TO GRAYTON HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT
Kheldon Fel	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:54:00 - [136] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME etc Quote this if you're down
Keeper O'Secrets Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.02 00:56:00 - [137] Originally by: Kheldon Fel Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME etc Quote this if you're down /quoted /signed /signed again for consistancy ------------------------------------ how do you make a custom signature? oh its this box...
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:01:00 - [138] Originally by: Dred Tather Just relax, and let the devs explain in due course. like they described the carrier logistics nerf so well? this has written all over it that they are going to buldoze this change in regardless of what the eve population things. I have a feeling there wrong and they will find that out when shortly after the patch people burn out trying to deal with the changes and quit
Luigi Galvani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:07:00 - [139] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME Why are you making Eve more like a job and less like an enjoyable game for people? Stop destroying eve.
Ceros X GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:07:00 - [140] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Ryuben Gallente The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:09:00 - [141] im in a 0.0 alliance to setup a small POS to run for 30 days with almost nothing on it takes 29k m3 thats nothing right ? one itty 5 with expanders and rigs (150 mill ship ish) has 38k m3 a large death star PoS for 30 days how ever takes 177 900 M3 oh thats 4/5 150mill in itty 5s so thats 600-750million in ur logistics flight and thats for ONE deathstar PoS My corp has SIX pos's up atm Yeah GG ccp
Waynhim	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:09:00 - [142] Originally by: Ceros X Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Elohe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:10:00 - [143] :smith:
Mestoth Minmatar Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:12:00 - [144] Edited by: Mestoth on 02/11/2007 01:14:13 W. T . F I understand and personally support the Carrier nerf. I always thought that it was a joke that a carrier did bloody everything. Nerfing FREIGHTERS though. Seriously WHAT did you Smoke\Take when you came up with that. Also, If your going to do this; do it right. the Fenir STILL can use the jump bridges. Its all well and good to nerf them from flying around empire with such impunity. However nerfing the ability to use jump bridges in 0,0 is just cruel. There are only a FEW alliances that benefit from this. (WAIT...HMM..MAYBE BOB\BOD who are. 2 jumps from Empire and ONLY just reduced their size to their core areas...isnt that a strange coincidence!) Reducing mineral comp: yes, i support AS LONG as you add in the "super dense Trit" and such at the same time (and it had better be "Super Dense". but FREIGHTERS. Have you guys EVER tried to move the materials needed to run a 0,0 alliance OUTSIDE of the test server during buisness hours. Wouldnt it have been simpler to code "CANNOT TAKE FREIGHTER INTO TITAN JUMP ARRAY" than to systamaticly nerf ALL freighters (well, 3\4...you cant even get that bit right!) W.T.F Oh and ON POS's. WHY oh WHY does it take SO FRIGGING Long to anchor EVERY SINGLE item. why not add a preset blueprint design or something. "design then press Go" and then the POS does the rest. Takes just as long, but just doenst need the HOURS of setup to mount a full large death star.
Beccara	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:13:00 - [145] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:20:00 - [146] And before anyone decides to challenge or ridicule Grayton on what he said and/or the fervor in which he said it - just rest assured he has a right to be upset. A very good right.
Gorfob	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:21:00 - [147] Originally by: Ryuben im in a 0.0 alliance to setup a small POS to run for 30 days with almost nothing on it takes 29k m3 thats nothing right ? one itty 5 with expanders and rigs (150 mill ship ish) has 38k m3 a large death star PoS for 30 days how ever takes 177 900 M3 oh thats 4/5 150mill in itty 5s so thats 600-750million in ur logistics flight and thats for ONE deathstar PoS My corp has SIX pos's up atm Yeah GG ccp This man runs 6 POS's and can see how godamn annoying this will be. Goonswarm and BoB will undoubtedly have POS'es numbering the 100's if not thousands. Even the 6 POS corp see this as stupid. Let along the 600 POS corp. Make jump freighters not invention based and seed would go a long way to making all of this not suck. -dbp
Buckeroo Bonzai	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:21:00 - [148] Quote: However nerfing the ability to use jump bridges in 0,0 is just cruel. There are only a FEW alliances that benefit from this. (WAIT...HMM..MAYBE BOB\BOD who are. 2 jumps from Empire and ONLY just reduced their size to their core areas...isnt that a strange coincidence!) DING DING DING!!!!!! We have a winner.
Popperr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:21:00 - [149] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:23:00 - [150] Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 02/11/2007 01:23:03 Originally by: Gorfob Make jump freighters not invention based and seed would go a long way to making all of this not suck. It would also help if instead of the arguably useless 10% bonus to Hull HP per JF level, if it were a 7.5% bonus to jump range per level so at JF IV the jump freighters would have the same base range as carriers.
Krontos Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:23:00 - [151] This really isn't a BoB versus Goonswarm thing. These changes to logistics royally screw anybody and everybody who runs POS's in 0.0, BoB included.
Locke Deathroe Clan 86 Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:26:00 - [152] Originally by: Buckeroo Bonzai Quote: However nerfing the ability to use jump bridges in 0,0 is just cruel. There are only a FEW alliances that benefit from this. (WAIT...HMM..MAYBE BOB\BOD who are. 2 jumps from Empire and ONLY just reduced their size to their core areas...isnt that a strange coincidence!) DING DING DING!!!!!! We have a winner. Yeah well we all know that as long as it will benefit BoB in some way CCP will put it in the game ASAP. Yet anything that helps the rest of us gets passed up.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:29:00 - [153] I am not normally one to jump on complaintrains but Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME etc
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:30:00 - [154] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 02/11/2007 01:30:28 Originally by: Buckeroo Bonzai Quote: However nerfing the ability to use jump bridges in 0,0 is just cruel. There are only a FEW alliances that benefit from this. (WAIT...HMM..MAYBE BOB\BOD who are. 2 jumps from Empire and ONLY just reduced their size to their core areas...isnt that a strange coincidence!) DING DING DING!!!!!! We have a winner. Winner of most stupid award maybe shut up about your ******* tinfoil already and get out. This is serious. And BOB gets raped on this worse than most.
Keeper O'Secrets Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:35:00 - [155] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 02/11/2007 01:30:28 Originally by: Buckeroo Bonzai Quote: However nerfing the ability to use jump bridges in 0,0 is just cruel. There are only a FEW alliances that benefit from this. (WAIT...HMM..MAYBE BOB\BOD who are. 2 jumps from Empire and ONLY just reduced their size to their core areas...isnt that a strange coincidence!) DING DING DING!!!!!! We have a winner. Winner of most stupid award maybe shut up about your ***** tinfoil already and get out. This is serious. And BOB gets raped on this worse than most. this is.. for once... not a gs vs bob or any other alliance.. this is game alterationswhich everyone over.. all cos ccp want us to try out their new jump freighters :/ - so in short they are making a new class to replace what the carrier could do... appart form ppl cud use the carrier, they are in easy circulation, they could jump further, they are cheaper... i could probrably go on a while on this list.. well done ccp.. nerf somthing then ** up even more things trying to fill the gap ------------------------------------ how do you make a custom signature? oh its this box...
Nekumi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:36:00 - [156] Anyone who can't see how utterly stupid this change is if it goes through, you have my pity now. This is not the first time I have looked at CCP as a corporation and wondered what is driving them to do the things they are doing. It is hard not to see these statements as hysterical rantings but honestly guys, you are going to lose customers if you continue along the path you are currently on and it is going to be a sad day when the clusters shut down and you will have no-one to blame but yourselves.
Keeper O'Secrets Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:40:00 - [157] Originally by: Nekumi Anyone who can't see how utterly stupid this change is if it goes through, you have my pity now. This is not the first time I have looked at CCP as a corporation and wondered what is driving them to do the things they are doing. It is hard not to see these statements as hysterical rantings but honestly guys, you are going to lose customers if you continue along the path you are currently on and it is going to be a sad day when the clusters shut down and you will have no-one to blame but yourselves. i totaly agree... i used to think of ccp as the developer which provided the game... and respected them cos the game was/is (for the moment tillpatch day) good... but they seem to have lost their interest in the playerbase.. which is disturbing considering the players ARE the game! **** us off u wont be getting anywhere near as many back... which means you ppl employed by ccp will beo ut of a job... ------------------------------------ how do you make a custom signature? oh its this box...
Buckeroo Bonzai	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:46:00 - [158] Originally by: Swamp Ziro Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 02/11/2007 01:30:28 Originally by: Buckeroo Bonzai Quote: However nerfing the ability to use jump bridges in 0,0 is just cruel. There are only a FEW alliances that benefit from this. (WAIT...HMM..MAYBE BOB\BOD who are. 2 jumps from Empire and ONLY just reduced their size to their core areas...isnt that a strange coincidence!) DING DING DING!!!!!! We have a winner. Winner of most stupid award maybe shut up about your ******* tinfoil already and get out. This is serious. And BOB gets raped on this worse than most. Ahh the great thing about public forums is that I dont have to get out. And yes I do realize that BoB gets screwed just like the rest of us but the timing is just to perfect to be mere coincidence.
Admiral Seafort DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:52:00 - [159] I have never fueled a POS, ever. This nerf is utterly and inexcusably dumb. ----- It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:53:00 - [160] ok you can stay
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 01:55:00 - [161] That is the whole point. They want you to quit. The can't fix their server issues. And they can't arbitrarily kick people to reduce numbers as a company. So what they'll do is they'll change the game to make it un fun. Then after a significant number leave they'll just change it all back again saying oops. Z Originally by: Darpz Originally by: Dred Tather Just relax, and let the devs explain in due course. like they described the carrier logistics nerf so well? this has written all over it that they are going to buldoze this change in regardless of what the eve population things. I have a feeling there wrong and they will find that out when shortly after the patch people burn out trying to deal with the changes and quit Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
Lela Xuan Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:06:00 - [162] Edited by: Lela Xuan on 02/11/2007 02:06:36 Originally by: Ztrain That is the whole point. They want you to quit. The can't fix their server issues. And they can't arbitrarily kick people to reduce numbers as a company. So what they'll do is they'll change the game to make it un fun. Then after a significant number leave they'll just change it all back again saying oops. :psyduck: I thought this forum was supposed to be troll-free. You can't be serious. _____________________________________________________ I thought it apropos to write it in crayon.
Nureoeis	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:17:00 - [163] Theres me thinking Empire freighter runs were time consuming enough as it is.
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:17:00 - [164] Edited by: Ztrain on 02/11/2007 02:20:26 Originally by: Lela Xuan I thought this forum was supposed to be troll-free. You can't be serious. I'd like nothing more then for you to prove me wrong. But the stupidity shown in the recent patches can lead to nothing else. Z Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:18:00 - [165] CCP, if your new innovations require you to completely nerf, nullify, and destroy your old innovations (which players have poured tremendous investment into) then you need to take another look at your design philosophy. You are going about this in a way that is completely and utterly wrong.
Duranium	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:36:00 - [166] Edited by: Duranium on 02/11/2007 02:39:30 For what it's worth, if these changes go through and it destroys 0.0 warfare, I'm just going to quit. This game is not worth playing without that sort of warfare. Small gang **** is just to boring. And if I wanted small-scale pvp I'd go play Guild Wars; frankly, EvE is just too unspectacular in all respects besides large-scale battles and 0.0 innovations to be worth playing without it.
Adunh Slavy KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:42:00 - [167] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 02/11/2007 02:42:42 Except for this thread, IÆve not been one to comment about nerfs and such things as there isnÆt much I can do but adapt to things. That said, I donÆt like ôbig changesö myself, who does really. Change always stirs things up, sometimes it is good and sometimes it is bad. Right now there seem to be so many changes it is hard to see where we are going to land. Just to play devils advocate, (and IÆm likely to get flamed on this,) or more to the point, IÆm trying to see the bright side of possible changes: what if the goal in all of this change is to create more space for younger players by making it harder on older players to maintain what they have. That in it self may not be an awful thing, more players doing more stuff leads to more stuff to do besides haul stuff around all day. If this is the case, maybe it is not a bad thing, Eve should not be a chore, even though I feel there are other ways to do it. Even if that is not the plan, weÆll all be faced with a choice, continue to maintain what we have and ôpayö for it with time and effort (chore/second job), or scale back. Not an easy choice to make. Easier for me perhaps as I have never committed to 0.0 other than a place to visit, so you 0.0 folks are welcome to flame me for this post. Non 0.0 folks, I have a nice Empire bought flame proof suit, looks just like yours, so flame me not please. -AS The Real Space Initiative
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:45:00 - [168] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 02/11/2007 02:42:42 Except for this thread, IÆve not been one to comment about nerfs and such things as there isnÆt much I can do but adapt to things. That said, I donÆt like ôbig changesö myself, who does really. Change always stirs things up, sometimes it is good and sometimes it is bad. Right now there seem to be so many changes it is hard to see where we are going to land. Just to play devils advocate, (and IÆm likely to get flamed on this,) or more to the point, IÆm trying to see the bright side of possible changes: what if the goal in all of this change is to create more space for younger players by making it harder on older players to maintain what they have. That in it self may not be an awful thing, more players doing more stuff leads to more stuff to do besides haul stuff around all day. If this is the case, maybe it is not a bad thing, Eve should not be a chore, even though I feel there are other ways to do it. Even if that is not the plan, weÆll all be faced with a choice, continue to maintain what we have and ôpayö for it with time and effort (chore/second job), or scale back. Not an easy choice to make. Easier for me perhaps as I have never committed to 0.0 other than a place to visit, so you 0.0 folks are welcome to flame me for this post. Non 0.0 folks, I have a nice Empire bought flame proof suit, looks just like yours, so flame me not please. Tl;dr: Too many people are having too much fun we must stop this right now
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:49:00 - [169] Originally by: HydroSan Edited by: HydroSan on 01/11/2007 22:03:57 Originally by: Rockbox lol goons are going ape **** over this Looking at the sov map, it appears Triumvirate owns a fair chunk of land. I guess you don't grasp just how hard it will be to live in those shiny new stations you guys got yourselves a few months ago. Do you like the thought of escorting slow-as-hell, double-jumping freighters from lowsec to each station system you own? No? Then you'd be against this. The funny bit is, they live in a place notorious for 150au+ wide systems. My guess is he hasn't yet let it sink in what that means for the next tri freighter op. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:57:00 - [170] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
kattak4 Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:58:00 - [171] Wow. What better way to make a poorly received addition to the game look better than to nerf it's t1 counterpart.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:58:00 - [172] you made my man graypert unhappy this makes goons sad :(
Ford Cruller	Posted - 2007.11.02 02:59:00 - [173] make them see reason mittani ):
Goca KAOS. Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:02:00 - [174] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:05:00 - [175] you heard it here first, stealth geminate boost. that said this is ***** ******, and improves no aspect of the game while making many others far worse.
Van Driesen	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:06:00 - [176] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:15:00 - [177] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Hrin Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:16:00 - [178] I think we need a devblog concerning this issue. They obviously intend to make sweeping changes to 0.0 logistics with the nerfing of carriers, changes to freighters, and introduction of tech 2 freighters. We demand a devblog
Vanye Inovske Two Brothers Mining Corp. Friend or Enemy	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:19:00 - [179] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 02/11/2007 02:42:42 Just to play devils advocate, (and IÆm likely to get flamed on this,) or more to the point, IÆm trying to see the bright side of possible changes: what if the goal in all of this change is to create more space for younger players by making it harder on older players to maintain what they have. That in it self may not be an awful thing, more players doing more stuff leads to more stuff to do besides haul stuff around all day. If this is the case, maybe it is not a bad thing, Eve should not be a chore, even though I feel there are other ways to do it. I know you're just playing devil's advocate, but this is absolutely pathetic. The way things are going, the only viable deep space logistics tool is going to be a multi-billion isk ship with no tank that requires millions and millions of skillpoints just to look at. That's not going to make it easier for younger players to muscle into nooks and crannies in 0.0, it's going to make it harder. Insofar as anyone benefits from this (and I use the term loosely) it's the oldest and wealthiest players, who can best afford the T2 jump freighters. Incidently, I was just playing around on Sisi and can get 49 AU out of a Providence with max cap skills and WDO 4. The good news is that cap recharges to over 90% by the time you drop out of warp, so you don't have to sit idle waiting for recharge. The odd thing (other than a ship that size having a worse warp range than a bloody Bantam) is that the graphical rotation rate of the ship is completely out of sync with the actual ship movement. The alignment speed is about the same as on Tranq, but graphically the ship rotates much, much slower. After 3 49AU warps on the same heading, my ship still wasn't pointing in the direction it was going.
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:19:00 - [180] Edited by: SSgt Sniper on 02/11/2007 03:20:19 Somebody earlier mentioned the aspect of having to go to empire, buy an egg, and fly it all the way out to hell and back and just how many days this would now take. As a person who was once in an alliance that did just such a thing, when the freighters could at least cross the system in one jump, I shudder to think what it will become after this particular change. One honestly wonders if CCP did this as a backhanded attempt at slowing 0.0 station growth, because honestly when you beat it around the water cooler that is the one aspect of this that will have no trickery to make a workaround. A freighter has to haul that egg. Nothing else can. You can't have itty fleets for running poses, you can't use the rig a revelation trick, you can't even put it in the jump freighters IIRC. It has to go in your pancake or six pack and be hauled, (post patch) for multiple days, and dropped by it into position. EDIT: Too add that if the current skill tree for the jumpfreighters stands, I see many a character soon hitting the auction block. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:35:00 - [181] Good lord. I think I'll ask the guys we have at FF to kidnap Oveur and go all Rendition on him. Its been a freakin nerf factory on SiSi, and as much as I'd like to believe that some of this is playtesting, the sheer number of items and depth of field nerfing that's going on will destroy the markets. Seriously, CCP: You stated that you wanted to slap in a ton of bugfixes and optimizations in this expansion, along with some new content. A freighter being able to warp across systems is not a bug. Changing it to have a warp range shorter than a rookie ship flown by a new pilot is not new content. A fitted ship inside a carrier that has cargo is not a bug. It may be adjusted for balance, but realize that you're defeating your own purposes here by not fixing the corporate hangar array first. Currently, even opening the damned hangars takes 30 seconds to a minute in non-laggy environments. Expecting someone to grab a ship and then pull ammo from there is, at the moment, expecting someone to pull a ship and then get it popped while waiting to see the ammo and then waiting to transfer it to their ship. THIS IS A BUG. FIX THIS FIRST BEFORE FORCING PEOPLE TO RELY ON IT. The jump bridge nerf is also significant. This is also not new content or a bug, but a rebalance...I cannot quite understand the need for it, as the whole purpose of jump bridges was, to my understanding, to streamline the logistics chain and enable fast movement across player empires. This did not make for "free" resource movement, as you still needed to get the material and ships from hisec to lowsec and passed the 0.0 entry chokepoints. Training Freighter V is also not a solution. Being able to fly a jump freighter is great, but GL finding one to buy, and then be prepared to shell out 5-10 billion. Even then, their limited cargohold means numerous, numerous jumps of mind-numbing tedium--flying any freighter is NOT a fun activity, but one borne of necessity. Seriously, CCP: Introduce your new content. Make adjustments individually, incrementally. THIS IS EXCESSIVE AND WRECKLESS. Take a lesson from SOE, for god's sake. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards
FGxHalsey Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:37:00 - [182] Edited by: FGxHalsey on 02/11/2007 03:38:40 To the EvE Economist: I appreciate what you are intending to do by making eve economics more player driven and less dependant on NPCs. I understand that you want more of a dynamic between High Sec, Low Sec, and 0.0 space. What I do not understand is the freighter nerf. When the jump bridges came out, every logistics person and everyone who had ever been drafted to do freighter escort duty rejoiced. Even with the jump bridges, logistics is still very difficult and time consuming. I ask that you keep this in mind when designing eve economics and logistics: Player fun levels take priority over turning eve into a true economic simulator. Real Life takes alot of hard work... hard work that people don't want to do when playing a game. I believe I can speak for a majority of the players when I say, we understand the carrier nerfs but the freighter nerfs really bother all of us. I would like to see the following in the near future: - Undo the freighter mass change. - Change the jump freighter bonus to remove the hp buff and instead put a jump range bonus per level of jump freighters. - Allow Jump Freighter BPO's to be seeded on the market so manufacture isn't as expensive as an invented item. - Don't seek another way to nerf freighters going through pos jump bridge modules. If the jump freighter gets a range bonus, it'll probably be more expensive to move stuff with a standard freighter anyways thus incentivising the use of jump freighters. - Allow a titan jump bridge of freighters... unless titans are intended to be almost completely useless.
CaptainGordon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 03:48:00 - [183] Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:54:25 This was posted on our forums by a player who needs no introduction, and I think its amazing: Originally by: R.N - Papa Digger POS fueling will be most problem with this nerf. CCP wanna mackinaw blobing? Here is example. 5L (6 with sov) reqiure ~160k m3 NPC fuel per month. and 1.1b m3 ice products (650k isotopes). 10 top skill macinaw fleet req 10 HOURS! to mine ice on it. and ice field must be very very closer to system with poses (freighters fly too slow). And mining ops must be covered from enemy. So if you have 20 station system with 6 poses in it.. you just need 20 day per month sit in belt mining ice :) What a super interesting gameplay. 20/30 or 31 days dedicated to mining ice mind=blown
CaptainGordon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:01:00 - [184] Originally by: CaptainGordon Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:59:02 Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:54:25 This was posted on our forums by a player who needs no introduction, and I think its amazing: Originally by: R.N - Papa Digger POS fueling will be most problem with this nerf. CCP wanna mackinaw blobing? Here is example. 5L (6 with sov) reqiure ~160k m3 NPC fuel per month. and 1.1b m3 ice products (650k isotopes). 10 top skill macinaw fleet req 10 HOURS! to mine ice on it. and ice field must be very very closer to system with poses (freighters fly too slow). And mining ops must be covered from enemy. So if you have 20 station system with 6 poses in it.. you just need 20 day per month sit in belt mining ice :) What a super interesting gameplay. 20/30 or 31 days dedicated to mining ice mind=blown Thats not even counting poses in strategic non-station systems, or any other pos logistics (i.e components), this is JUST FUEL Not to mention, that this need the alliance in question to have access to the said ice field within a reasonable range.
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:15:00 - [185] Edited by: Ztrain on 02/11/2007 04:16:55 11 day's and counting for my first account expires back from when they nurfed carriers. 19 day's till the next after that. Since the accounts were flagged canceled CCP has not done anything to warrant reactivation but instead has made more reasons not too. Z Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:16:00 - [186] is this going live with rev III?
Betsy Braddock	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:20:00 - [187] So, this is like CCP coding the game and then having to print it out and manually carry it to another computer to install it? Why, by the sweaty***** of Vulcan, does this sound like a good idea to the design team?
Aiesha Leybon	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:27:00 - [188] I will ask the same thing I asked in other threads: HOW DOES THIS CHANGE MAKE THE GAME MORE ENJOYABLE FOR THE PLAYERS? Until CP can answer that question about everything they change, they should do nothing.
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:28:00 - [189] You know, I could just repeat my opinions from the other threads that I am enjoying all these Trinity changes, but then people would call me a troll despite having just posted text walls of caps and asterisks. Thats a level of irony I'm just not willing to handle. YEAH BLARGH CCP SUX ANRHGALHTLGHLH
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:39:00 - [190] Originally by: Arenis Xemdal You know, I could just repeat my opinions from the other threads that I am enjoying all these Trinity changes, but then people would call me a troll despite having just posted text walls of caps and asterisks. Thats a level of irony I'm just not willing to handle. YEAH BLARGH CCP SUX ANRHGALHTLGHLH I imagine the changes are far easier to stomach now that you and Digi don't have to worry about logistics.
Buckeroo Bonzai	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:47:00 - [191] Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Originally by: Arenis Xemdal You know, I could just repeat my opinions from the other threads that I am enjoying all these Trinity changes, but then people would call me a troll despite having just posted text walls of caps and asterisks. Thats a level of irony I'm just not willing to handle. YEAH BLARGH CCP SUX ANRHGALHTLGHLH I imagine the changes are far easier to stomach now that you and Digi don't have to worry about logistics. LOL too funny.
HostageTaker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:47:00 - [192] This thread is funny, and not just for the obvious reasons... >>> EvE-Online Wallpapers <<<
Brka Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:48:00 - [193] Another terrible nerf. Where are these nerf ideas coming from? I ask again? Can we see the resumes of the dev staff? This makes freighter movement anywhere and all day affair. Being that I do a lot of movement in empire I would be like.. ok I'm done.
Andre Ricard Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:52:00 - [194] Originally by: CaptainGordon Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:59:02 Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:54:25 This was posted on our forums by a player who needs no introduction, and I think its amazing: Originally by: R.N - Papa Digger POS fueling will be most problem with this nerf. CCP wanna mackinaw blobing? Here is example. 5L (6 with sov) reqiure ~160k m3 NPC fuel per month. and 1.1b m3 ice products (650k isotopes). 10 top skill macinaw fleet req 10 HOURS! to mine ice on it. and ice field must be very very closer to system with poses (freighters fly too slow). And mining ops must be covered from enemy. So if you have 20 station system with 6 poses in it.. you just need 20 day per month sit in belt mining ice :) What a super interesting gameplay. 20/30 or 31 days dedicated to mining ice mind=blown Thats not even counting poses in strategic non-station systems, or any other pos logistics (i.e components), this is JUST FUEL And as I posted in our internal forums, this assumes a mere ten people ever contribute to the ice maintenance of a twenty-station empire; or, one ice miner per two stations. We face this sort of thing now, we simply have other ways of importing the ice materials. This isn't the issue here. Even if Goonswarm turns massively Abrahamic on ice in Rev3, moving the ice isotopes to where they need to go will still be an impossible pain in the rear. We either have to use impossibly slow freighters to transport it, or use smaller Itty Vs that need tons of trips. If this is a nerf to large space empires to make it all but unworkable to maintain such empires then CCP needs to say so; however, I do not think ruining an entire ship class the way to go about taking care of empire size in 0.0. ----- Character back under original management.
CaptainGordon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 04:55:00 - [195] Originally by: Andre Ricard Originally by: CaptainGordon Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:59:02 Edited by: CaptainGordon on 02/11/2007 03:54:25 This was posted on our forums by a player who needs no introduction, and I think its amazing: Originally by: R.N - Papa Digger POS fueling will be most problem with this nerf. CCP wanna mackinaw blobing? Here is example. 5L (6 with sov) reqiure ~160k m3 NPC fuel per month. and 1.1b m3 ice products (650k isotopes). 10 top skill macinaw fleet req 10 HOURS! to mine ice on it. and ice field must be very very closer to system with poses (freighters fly too slow). And mining ops must be covered from enemy. So if you have 20 station system with 6 poses in it.. you just need 20 day per month sit in belt mining ice :) What a super interesting gameplay. 20/30 or 31 days dedicated to mining ice mind=blown Thats not even counting poses in strategic non-station systems, or any other pos logistics (i.e components), this is JUST FUEL And as I posted in our internal forums, this assumes a mere ten people ever contribute to the ice maintenance of a twenty-station empire; or, one ice miner per two stations. We face this sort of thing now, we simply have other ways of importing the ice materials. This isn't the issue here. Even if Goonswarm turns massively Abrahamic on ice in Rev3, moving the ice isotopes to where they need to go will still be an impossible pain in the rear. We either have to use impossibly slow freighters to transport it, or use smaller Itty Vs that need tons of trips. If this is a nerf to large space empires to make it all but unworkable to maintain such empires then CCP needs to say so; however, I do not think ruining an entire ship class the way to go about taking care of empire size in 0.0. Never mind what I said, Papa Digger made a mistake in the calculations :argh:
Andre Ricard Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:02:00 - [196] Originally by: CaptainGordon Never mind what I said, Papa Digger made a mistake in the calculations :argh: Yes he did. :V The larger point stands, though; an alliance who can only find one man per two stations willing to mine ice to help maintain its infrastructure is frankly an alliance that is probably not very healthy. Just mining ice is not the issue. The issue is that this nerf, if it's intended to try and restrict the size of 0.0 empires due to practical concerns, has ridiculous playstyle impact for whole swaths of people who don't even bother with POSes. ----- Character back under original management.
Angelus Damelon Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:08:00 - [197] Edited by: Angelus Damelon on 02/11/2007 05:09:42 : pos warfare is slow and boring, moon counts mean that people are better off spamming them until the moons are filled instead of engaging and our servers can't handle it when they do anyway. oh and huge swaths of 0.0 are being held by a few entities. : AND PEOPLE ARE HAULING WITH THEIR CARRIERS! : yeah that too. how should we fix this guys? : i know, let's nerf every single logistical tool in the game so it's physically impossible to fuel that many poses unless your entire alliance is hauling all day long : MOAR TARGETS FTW : hell yeah i love ganking haulers : isn't that just going to make it so no one's willing to hold sovereignty in more than a few home systems close to empire and make deep 0.0 a wasteland? : STFU : srsly that's good man it means no more territorial war, people will just do small gang stuff yarrrrr : then why did we spend all that time putting in 0.0 empire-building stuff like constellation sov and pos infrastructure and deployable outposts? couldn't we do a lighter nerf and just change the sov mechanics themselves? maybe have sov based on planets held instead of total moons, and to hold a planet you have to hold the most moons at that planet? that'd cut down on the number of sov-relevant moons quite a bit : : and isn't this going to wreck the moon-mining in 0.0 which will wreck the t2 market? and all the refine nerfs, aren't they going to make even 0.0 t1 production really hard? : nah just give them some mining buffs that'll even it out : HELLS YEAH MORE BARGES TO GANK : fine, but i'm not announcing all this stuff. you guys saw what happened to poor zulupark when he announced the mothership/carrier drone nerfs
RisenPhoenix Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:25:00 - [198] worse idea than the carrier nerf and that was pretty damn bad, goodbye 0.0 for everyone if this happens :( ------------------------------------------------
Naomi Shaikorth Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:36:00 - [199] I'm kinda wondering if this will come to blows at fanfest. Some dev is going to have to take credit or get blamed for this, and since only the most ardent CCP groupies or loyal fans will show, I wonder how they'll react in person to what is rapidly becoming the single worst patch since the Star Wars: Galaxies patch of infamy. Maybe a group of drunken players literally screaming in their faces, bad breath and all will get them to at least explain why they're doing this.
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:39:00 - [200] Originally by: Naomi Shaikorth I'm kinda wondering if this will come to blows at fanfest. Some dev is going to have to take credit or get blamed for this, and since only the most ardent CCP groupies or loyal fans will show, I wonder how they'll react in person to what is rapidly becoming the single worst patch since the Star Wars: Galaxies patch of infamy. Maybe a group of drunken players literally screaming in their faces, bad breath and all will get them to at least explain why they're doing this. Basically if you look at previous space games this game was origionally put together from 3 distinct games. I believe that the Revilations series of expansions is the revilation that if they don't have anything to copy off of they have no creative talent. But I do have to agree with you 100%. This is NGE level F Up. Z Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:43:00 - [201] Why didn't CCP just nerf warp to 0 instead, along with disallowing instas? Do that, and the jump bridge nerf and 0.0 empires will shrink. WTZ allows projection of firepower, thats the most important thing to a huge empire, this logistics nerfing will just hurt everyone equally. ☺☻☺☻☺ SO how do you get me to stop posting? Bump this thread Until devs answer
Naomi Shaikorth Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:52:00 - [202] Originally by: Ztrain Basically if you look at previous space games this game was origionally put together from 3 distinct games. I believe that the Revilations series of expansions is the revilation that if they don't have anything to copy off of they have no creative talent. But I do have to agree with you 100%. This is NGE level F Up. Z Just look at the ideas threads. It's not that hard to skim off the creative talent of the people who play the game. Sure 90% of the ideas are less than useless, but there are gems that show from time to time. All they need is polish, a bit of balance, RP to flavor and Hey! Free content!
Tarnia Xavian	Posted - 2007.11.02 05:52:00 - [203] If the formula is mass x distance x 500 then just set the bridges closer together to get the ships through them. You guys aren't seeing the big picture here. Most of these changes (except maybe for the drone stuff) are designed to reduce the number of capital ships and super-capital ships that are being built. CCP have decided that they are not going to let this become "Capital Ships Online," and they are slamming the door hard on the direction that they have allowed the game to take. Live with it. Adapt. LOL. Where do we sign up for "Eve Unemployment" (for capital shipbuilders)?
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:02:00 - [204] Edited by: Ztrain on 02/11/2007 06:02:56 Originally by: Tarnia Xavian CCP have decided that they are not going to let this become "Capital Ships Online," and they are slamming the door hard on the direction that they have allowed the game to take. Live with it. Adapt. LOL. Where do we sign up for "Eve Unemployment" (for capital shipbuilders)? Quite frankly no. Every MMO has what is called end game content. It's progression through a game. For EVE one of the end game content was capital ships. Now if your looking at getting in to this game (of which I've already dissuaded quite a few and will continue) there is no end game content. What is there to work twards? Being a high end industrial? Oops sorry can't really get T2 BPOs anymore. Capital Construction? Pffft would you invent in the BPOs at this point? PvP who here seeing what Caps are be coming would spend the time to train them up? If I was starting over hell no. So tell me what is there worth working towards? Highly skilled drone pilot? LOL nurfed. How about missiles doh.... There comes a point where you just ask this is too much of a pain in the ass vs the enjoyment gotten out of it. It's not a job it's a game. Okay nm from what I've heard for some it quite literally is a job since that is another failing of CCPs abilities. For me at least coming from a game design backgroud, this is more fun to watch the forums for the latest dev post then playing the game itself. It's kinda like watching the old 3 stooges. Z Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
Tarnia Xavian	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:09:00 - [205] Originally by: Ztrain Edited by: Ztrain on 02/11/2007 06:02:56 Originally by: Tarnia Xavian CCP have decided that they are not going to let this become "Capital Ships Online," and they are slamming the door hard on the direction that they have allowed the game to take. Live with it. Adapt. LOL. Where do we sign up for "Eve Unemployment" (for capital shipbuilders)? Quite frankly no. Every MMO has what is called end game content. It's progression through a game. For EVE one of the end game content was capital ships. Now if your looking at getting in to this game (of which I've already dissuaded quite a few and will continue) there is no end game content. What is there to work twards? Being a high end industrial? Oops sorry can't really get T2 BPOs anymore. Capital Construction? Pffft would you invent in the BPOs at this point? PvP who here seeing what Caps are be coming would spend the time to train them up? If I was starting over hell no. So tell me what is there worth working towards? Highly skilled drone pilot? LOL nurfed. How about missiles doh.... There comes a point where you just ask this is too much of a pain in the ass vs the enjoyment gotten out of it. It's not a job it's a game. Okay nm from what I've heard for some it quite literally is a job since that is another failing of CCPs abilities. For me at least coming from a game design backgroud, this is more fun to watch the forums for the latest dev post then playing the game itself. It's kinda like watching the old 3 stooges. Z Then gtfo already. You're making lag the rest of us would rather not have. If enough of you go then CCP will finally get "your message."
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:16:00 - [206] Originally by: FGxHalsey Edited by: FGxHalsey on 02/11/2007 03:38:40 To the EvE Economist: I appreciate what you are intending to do by making eve economics more player driven and less dependant on NPCs. I understand that you want more of a dynamic between High Sec, Low Sec, and 0.0 space. What I do not understand is the freighter nerf. When the jump bridges came out, every logistics person and everyone who had ever been drafted to do freighter escort duty rejoiced. Even with the jump bridges, logistics is still very difficult and time consuming. I ask that you keep this in mind when designing eve economics and logistics: Player fun levels take priority over turning eve into a true economic simulator. Real Life takes alot of hard work... hard work that people don't want to do when playing a game. I believe I can speak for a majority of the players when I say, we understand the carrier nerfs but the freighter nerfs really bother all of us. I would like to see the following in the near future: - Undo the freighter mass change. - Change the jump freighter bonus to remove the hp buff and instead put a jump range bonus per level of jump freighters. - Allow Jump Freighter BPO's to be seeded on the market so manufacture isn't as expensive as an invented item. - Don't seek another way to nerf freighters going through pos jump bridge modules. If the jump freighter gets a range bonus, it'll probably be more expensive to move stuff with a standard freighter anyways thus incentivising the use of jump freighters. - Allow a titan jump bridge of freighters... unless titans are intended to be almost completely useless. signed
UneFraiseDansUneChaise GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:16:00 - [207] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:25:00 - [208] This is all part of CCP's plan to reduce lag by introducing a patch so monumentally ******** that bob and goons come together and sing in some vain hope that our song will reach the ears of the game designer with a brain three sizes too small. Seriously, who does this change benefit? Anyone? What issue does this address? Had there previously been hordes of guys all beelining for freighters so they could get into the lucrative and romantic profession of flying a spacetruck from pos to pos relishing in the unfettered joy of transfering things from their cargo into a pos? This is a change that makes the game less fun for everyone, except people interested in shadenfreude.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:27:00 - [209] Seems entire CCP balance team just got evicted from 0.0 heh. 'We couldn't keep our turf, but we'll make sure noone else can use it either'
Alice Cholmondeley I Am Legend	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:29:00 - [210] Originally by: Alias11 Seriously, who does this change benefit? Anyone? What issue does this address? Had there previously been hordes of guys all beelining for freighters so they could get into the lucrative and romantic profession of flying a spacetruck from pos to pos relishing in the unfettered joy of transfering things from their cargo into a pos? This is a change that makes the game less fun for everyone, except people interested in shadenfreude. I hear crying be here.
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:34:00 - [211] Edited by: hammyhamm on 02/11/2007 06:35:03 Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID If there is anyone in the game who knows about the impact this will have on logistics, it is grayton (and stampert) This is not just a GoonSwarm problem, this whole nerf is going to make it impossible for any 0.0 alliance to function. EDIT: also T2 freighters should be tier2 instead, jesus these are going to be the price of motherships and useless to boot.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:40:00 - [212] Well, overall a good change. Goons have for months been whining over titan jumpbridging freighters, and now CCP steps in and corrects this. When so many goons are complaining (and relatively few others), you KNOW CCP is doing the right thing 0.0 was never intended to get all its minerals from empire. This'll mean that we need to start allowing miners into our areas, and protecting said miners. It'll also mean a death sentence to no small number of macro miners in empire, which is also a good thing Fully support this nerf which (unlike the carrier combat nerf) makes sense. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:58:00 - [213] Originally by: Kerfira Well, overall a good change. Goons have for months been whining over titan jumpbridging freighters, and now CCP steps in and corrects this. When so many goons are complaining (and relatively few others), you KNOW CCP is doing the right thing 0.0 was never intended to get all its minerals from empire. This'll mean that we need to start allowing miners into our areas, and protecting said miners. It'll also mean a death sentence to no small number of macro miners in empire, which is also a good thing Fully support this nerf which (unlike the carrier combat nerf) makes sense. And I thought goons were the only people who posted in threads without reading them
Bu Jinkan Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:02:00 - [214] Originally by: Kerfira Well, overall a good change. Goons have for months been whining over titan jumpbridging freighters, and now CCP steps in and corrects this. When so many goons are complaining (and relatively few others), you KNOW CCP is doing the right thing 0.0 was never intended to get all its minerals from empire. This'll mean that we need to start allowing miners into our areas, and protecting said miners. It'll also mean a death sentence to no small number of macro miners in empire, which is also a good thing Fully support this nerf which (unlike the carrier combat nerf) makes sense. 1. Anyone who has to hold a large amount of territory will complain about this. Seriously, read Grayton's post - he and Stampert basically run the entirety of our logistics, managing 100+ POSes by themselves. If anyone knows about this stuff, it's them. And keep in mind that they were doing all of this without the benefit of titan jumpbridges. Maybe CCP should go and talk to these people before thinking that having 4 year old characters that join PvP alliances makes them experts on POS fueling. 2. What the hell does mining have to do with anything? The only way GS or any other alliance could meet its daily fuel requirements locally is if we had dozens of macrominers running 24/7. And this is already a process that takes hours and hours to do - why on earth would you make it even more time consuming and soul-crushing? Not to mention the wide variety of POS fuel that is IMPOSSIBLE to get locally. 3. It won't do anything to empire macrominers, because 0.0 alliances will continue to import fuel to meet demand. This won't result in fewer POSes, it will result in a few players who already do the thankless task of logistics spending even more of their free time so other people can have fun. This nerf makes no sense.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:04:00 - [215] Originally by: hammyhamm EDIT: also T2 freighters should be tier2 instead, jesus these are going to be the price of motherships and useless to boot. Come on now. There's no way T2 freighters could be as useless as the fighterless, cargoless, tacklable motherships we'll see in trinity. _____ CPU Love
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:14:00 - [216] Originally by: Bu Jinkan he and Stampert basically run the entirety of our logistics, managing 100+ POSes by themselves. And THIS is why logistics in 0.0 needs to be nerfed!!!! 2 persons should NOT in any way or circumstances be able to run 100+ POS!!! Thanks for providing the arguments for me Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Gut Punch Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:19:00 - [217] Someone explain to me how this new nerf fits with CCP's anti blob strategy?? Won't this increase the necessity for standard freighter ops with webbers and jumping between gates? Everyone knows how valuable a freighter is and they will definately assign large blobs to these things to protect them. Oh and limited warp range was also a brilliant idea . Now we have to wait even longer for the shortest of FOPs to end cause the dang freighters have to warp twice before they get to gates. This nerf doesn't just impact the "big 0.0" alliances, but all alliances who have a decent amount of logistical requirements. --- --- Brutally Clever Empire ---
Goca KAOS. Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:22:00 - [218] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Bu Jinkan he and Stampert basically run the entirety of our logistics, managing 100+ POSes by themselves. And THIS is why logistics in 0.0 needs to be nerfed!!!! 2 persons should NOT in any way or circumstances be able to run 100+ POS!!! Thanks for providing the arguments for me and this is why morons hiding behind alts should not be allowed to post on any ingame forum.. He said "managing" you **.. he didn't say he actually fuels each pos by himself.. christ people are stupid.... ie: grab a ***** brain before posting and use your main if you have one..
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:25:00 - [219] Originally by: Kerfira Well, overall a good change. Goons have for months been whining over titan jumpbridging freighters, and now CCP steps in and corrects this. When so many goons are complaining (and relatively few others), you KNOW CCP is doing the right thing Bugger off, this is not CAOD. So your only reason to say that this change is good because many goons are complaining or what? Maybe read the thread next time. Everyone from all the large 0.0 alliances say that this is really an impossible bad change. BoB, MC, Razor and yes, also Goons. And what people tend to forget here is the affect of high sec trading. 50 AU max warp range. Ahhh, right. Freighters != haulers. Oh wait...
Varaxian Amarr Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:34:00 - [220] You know, I hate to do it... but I have to respond. I'm not rude with the CCP people, or say "CCP, you're insane" and all that crap... but simple fact, the new "Equilization Devs" are not looking at the big picture in many peoples opinion.. ....so, I call upon Oveur to show up and post something about these nerfs to the Devblog, EXACTLY the issues, exactly what needs to be fixed, and exactly why strain on 0.0 living is being reverted to Pre Cold War release. Oveur, talk to us man....plz.
Darth Nerf	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:48:00 - [221] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I love you Grayton, and I want to have your babies. But why so many cuss words?
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:59:00 - [222] Originally by: Darth Nerf Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I love you Grayton, and I want to have your babies. But why so many cuss words? Why so few? Except the jump bridges, I haven't seen much positive happen for nullsec logistics. If they go. . . all thats left is the jump freighters, or freighter ops. Freighter ops. . . yeah. . . they aren't paper thin like T1 indies, but they're damn close, and a much bigger target. And jump freighters will not be available for some time, it will be months before they are available in quantity. Has anyone run the numbers on the relative efficiency of an Ark vs. an honor tanked Revelation in terms of ISK/m3 to build and ISK/(m3*LY) to jump? -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:12:00 - [223] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 02/11/2007 08:12:03 If I were a logistics/freighter pilot, I would have quit EVE over this. I'm not, though. CCP... please, stop doing this to your game :( The game was almost balanced in Rev II. Amarr had issues, gallente was really good, and speed fits were still prevalent but some strategic alterings of key mods (webs maybe, whatever) could have fixed this. Instead you nerf capitals for no real reason (anybody been complaining about carriers being too strong? I sure haven't. I've just seen people **** and moan about moms in lowsec), make freighters worse off than they were before the jump-bridges were in place, introduce a pile of crappy ships, nerf dictors, nerf other stuff that didn't need a nerf, and... Why? I, and a lot of other people, love this game. We really do. I personally really like that CCP employees visit the forums and show that you actually do listen to your playerbase. So uh... Hello? This change makes EVE less fun. EVE is a game. People take it with various levels of seriousness, but ultimately it is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. A change that makes the game less fun is a bad change. Don't do this to EVE, CCP. __________________________________
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:41:00 - [224] Uhoh.... Aint that a bit over the top ? I mean it's nice and all to make new ships with new abilities but would it not be better to you know ... lure us there with candy instead of whipping us in 'right direction'. When you are 'correcting all things wrong' then take a look at bumping, logoffski, local, low sec and umm .. lag perhaps. Oh and make POS warfare fun mmmkay?
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:48:00 - [225] Originally by: Carniflex Uhoh.... Aint that a bit over the top ? I mean it's nice and all to make new ships with new abilities but would it not be better to you know ... lure us there with candy instead of whipping us in 'right direction'. When you are 'correcting all things wrong' then take a look at bumping, logoffski, local, low sec and umm .. lag perhaps. Oh and make POS warfare fun mmmkay? Yes they have basically shown us their their whole, "sandbox." concept is a complete farce and I'd go so far as to claim false advertising if I ever see a dev use the term again. As far as the logistics goes several other methods have been discovered to unnerf their stupid nerf. Z Originally by: CCP Zulupark That's the rough idea, yes. We still have in no way started thinking about what modules to introduce, what they would do or anything of the likes, but the idea is that.
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:50:00 - [226] [Begin Wishful Thinking] This is a precursor to changes in POS warfare. In Trinity we are going to see teh introduction of "Sovereignity Towers". You can still put as many towers up as you want (for logistics/moon mining purposes) but only one tower will claim sov and it will be a Deathstar-from-Hell pos and only one can be anchored in any system. POS spamming is a thing of the pass and alliances don't need a huge POS network but one pos per system in space they need to hold. Jump Freighters will be Tier 2 and require Freighter 4 and BPOs will be seeded. They'll be expensive but attainable and the Jump Freighter skill will be a rank 14 skill that give bonus to jump range. Jump Freighter range while initially poor will match a carrier when trained up. End result is a smaller POS network that is easier to maintain while fixing POS spamming and making POS warfare alot more enjoyable. [End Wishful Thinking]
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:09:00 - [227] Well, I can see (and sort of agree to) the reasoning behind this. Riskless logistics allow alliances to control much bigger areas of space than they "should", and allow them to import all they need from Empire without effort, without needing to focus on local resources. Forcing people to either jump in indies (remember those?) without risk, or use freighter convoys (remember those?) with much more risk is probably good for the game. Smaller alliances can now seriously disrupt the logistics of bigger (unorganized) ones, at least in theory. Moving vast amount of materials around should not be easy, or risk-free. This change is probably for the good. ...at least until t2 freighters some into play, and then we're back where we started, almost.
Kayl Breinhar Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:13:00 - [228] I can't remember what page it's on, but I'm going to say it again: CCP, although quite a few people are saying you flat out can't do this, please let me be the first to say that you can't do it yet. Give people until 3.1 or preferably 3.2 so they/we/everyone can get their affairs in order.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:26:00 - [229] Originally by: Zeoliter [Begin Wishful Thinking] This is a precursor to changes in POS warfare. In Trinity we are going to see teh introduction of "Sovereignity Towers". You can still put as many towers up as you want (for logistics/moon mining purposes) but only one tower will claim sov and it will be a Deathstar-from-Hell pos and only one can be anchored in any system. POS spamming is a thing of the pass and alliances don't need a huge POS network but one pos per system in space they need to hold. Jump Freighters will be Tier 2 and require Freighter 4 and BPOs will be seeded. They'll be expensive but attainable and the Jump Freighter skill will be a rank 14 skill that give bonus to jump range. Jump Freighter range while initially poor will match a carrier when trained up. End result is a smaller POS network that is easier to maintain while fixing POS spamming and making POS warfare alot more enjoyable. [End Wishful Thinking] The route they are taking doesn't support that wishful thinking. All-in-all, I am a bit puzzled by the changes. Depending on the timing of when each of them goes into effect, it could be alright (i.e. introduce jumpfreighters now, wait 6 months, then nerf T1 freighters and carrier logistics). But why put all this stuff on Sisi then? Alternatively, they could be doing all of it at once, which would indeed lead to a huge collapse of 0.0 alliances or make them a lot more vulnerable at the very least. In the short run. In the longrun, nothing changes, jump freighters will take over and we will be back at where we are today, but with different ships. As for the prices of jumpfreighters, assuming they will be tech 2, they will be about 3 billion, if people start working on them now. Buy yourself the BPOs for each of the freighters, start churning out BPCs. If there are enough BPOs churning out BPCs, prices of BPCs wont be prohibitive for very long. ------------------------------------------------
Alekanderu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:30:00 - [230] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Well, I can see (and sort of agree to) the reasoning behind this. Riskless logistics allow alliances to control much bigger areas of space than they "should", and allow them to import all they need from Empire without effort, without needing to focus on local resources. Forcing people to either jump in indies (remember those?) without risk, or use freighter convoys (remember those?) with much more risk is probably good for the game. Smaller alliances can now seriously disrupt the logistics of bigger (unorganized) ones, at least in theory. Moving vast amount of materials around should not be easy, or risk-free. This change is probably for the good. ...at least until t2 freighters some into play, and then we're back where we started, almost. wow you have absolutely no idea what life in a 0.0 alliance is like, do you?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:35:00 - [231] Originally by: Alekanderu you have absolutely no idea what life in a 0.0 alliance is like, do you? I have no idea what life is like in the Goons, no, not do I wish to. I value my sanity. However, I have some idea of 0.0 logistics, on a small-alliance level. Take your ranting somewhere else, please.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:37:00 - [232] Originally by: Ztrain Yes they have basically shown us their their whole, "sandbox." concept is a complete farce and I'd go so far as to claim false advertising if I ever see a dev use the term again. As far as the logistics goes several other methods have been discovered to unnerf their stupid nerf. Z Oh, it's still a sandbox. A sandbox owned by sadists who go out and kick over the sand castles every once in a while and for good measure beat the children with hoses.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:41:00 - [233] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2007 09:41:36 I suspect a large reason for this change is (also) to stop people using titan + freighters to make vast amounts of zero-risk cash by exploiting NPC market offers. I've heard this was being done, on a pretty large scale. ...but almost certainly the biggest motivation is to give a role to the new t2 jump freighters. Which is fine by me, assuming that they really will be better at 0.0 logistics than carriers. We'll see.
Alekanderu GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:51:00 - [234] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Alekanderu you have absolutely no idea what life in a 0.0 alliance is like, do you? I have no idea what life is like in the Goons, no, not do I wish to. I value my sanity. However, I have some idea of 0.0 logistics, on a small-alliance level. Take your ranting somewhere else, please. this is not a question of "goons complaining" you moron, every single 0.0 (real 0.0, not NPC space) alliance is going to get hit so hard by this that it's not even funny; read this thread, the only people not speaking up against this either don't live in 0.0 themselves, or have no idea of the amount of work that is already going into maintaining territory there
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:55:00 - [235] This is brilliant news. I really like it. Whoever decided to pull BoB out of feyth just before these changes is either a dev, a strategic genious or insanely lucky.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:55:00 - [236] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2007 09:41:36 I suspect a large reason for this change is (also) to stop people using titan + freighters to make vast amounts of zero-risk cash by exploiting NPC market offers. I've heard this was being done, on a pretty large scale. ...but almost certainly the biggest motivation is to give a role to the new t2 jump freighters. Which is fine by me, assuming that they really will be better at 0.0 logistics than carriers. We'll see. Guess what, the problem is not the freighter... it is the borked npc market, and do you know that to actually start getting real profit(that is 1 isk more than the titan and freighters costed) from titan + freighter combo you need to do it for a silly amount of time? It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Blood Impact Maphesto's children	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:59:00 - [237] Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME I seriously just do not understand how CCP have such a utterly idiotic view of this game. WHY THE HELL DO YOU HATE THE IDEA OF 0.0 LOGISTICS SO MUCH? WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE THE MOST BORING, TEDIOUS, POINTLESS ASPECT OF THIS ENTIRE GAME GIGANTICALLY HARDER? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU ***** HAVE FOR THIS CHANGE? Do you want large amounts of people to have to spend 80% of their time in game escorting freighters? Do you want people to burn out and hate this game for how tedious it is? Do you want to make the lives of some of the people that are the most dedicated to this game and the corporations and alliances they're in a hundred times harder? Seriously, what *** motive do you have for this? This patch has to be one of the most ill-conceived, poorly thought out, idiotic patches I have EVER seen in any game. First you nerf the everliving hell out of carriers. You make them completely and utterly worthless for the role that hundreds, if not thousands, of people trained for, because apparently "carrier != hauler" in your minds. And who cares if that leaves millions of skill points essentially worthless and the nearest viable alternative being months upon months away? These two year old ships obviously weren't supposed to be used to carry things despite the fact there was never a SINGLE GOD DAMNED MENTION OF THEM NOT INTENDING TO BE THIS WAY FOR OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AFTER THEY CAME OUT. And you know, despite the fact the carrier logistics nerf is utterly ****, I could have lived with it if forced to. I mean, after all, even though we'd have to do dozens upon dozens of jumps with a freighter every so often, at least it wouldn't be too hard in areas we spend hundreds upon hundreds of man hours building up infrastructure in. Oh but hey, guess what, CCP apparently doesn't like the idea of things not being stupid, tedious and boring! Why instead let's make people waste THEIR ENTIRE *** PLAY TIME moving freighters around! Let's make all their infrastructure they built up be worthless! Let's make what is essentially a part time second job for a lot of people be a full time with tons of extra over time second job instead! I really can't wait to see the excuse CCP pulls out of their ass for this one, too. Oh what, are freighters not supposed to be haulers? Are jump bridges not supposed to be used to help with logistics (and if so WHY THE DID YOU EVEN PUT THEM IN IN THE FIRST PLACE)? Are people supposed to spend hundreds of hours of play time wasting their time? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD YOU HAVE FOR THIS? Guess what: this isn't going to help with teamwork. This isn't going to force alliances to be tighter and close knit. This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your *** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You know why? Because this job is so monumentally tedious and boring that not everyone can do it. Only a few people can handle doing ** like this and they normally do it out of an urge of wanting to see their corp/alliance succeed. You can't make huge time sinks and expect suddenly for hundreds more to step up and help; instead it'll be the same people just doing even more tedious, boring work, wasting their time to work around a game dynamic that is designed specifically to be unfun and waste time. What makes me sad is I know that if CCP even bothers to respond, it will be something as cryptic and worthless as the carrier reply. Since, after all, anything not fitting their grand plan just has to be wrong.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:01:00 - [238] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2007 10:04:38 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2007 10:04:09 Originally by: Alekanderu this is not a question of "goons complaining" you moron, every single 0.0 (real 0.0, not NPC space) alliance is going to get hit so hard by this that it's not even funny; read this thread, the only people not speaking up against this either don't live in 0.0 themselves, or have no idea of the amount of work that is already going into maintaining territory there Then I guess they'll just have to hold on to less territory, won't they? Or get more people to chip in on the logistics front, instead of having a small logistics core do the heavy lifting. shrug As you say, it's not my problem. I don't see alliances being forced to do more work to hold huge areas as a bad thing (for the game as a whole, that is).
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:02:00 - [239] Originally by: Nahia Senne This is brilliant news. I really like it. Whoever decided to pull BoB out of feyth just before these changes is either a dev, a strategic genious or insanely lucky. Or a Clairvoyant. Don't forget to include a supernatural angle.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:04:00 - [240] Originally by: Dristra Guess what, the problem is not the freighter... it is the borked npc market, and do you know that to actually start getting real profit(that is 1 isk more than the titan and freighters costed) from titan + freighter combo you need to do it for a silly amount of time? Sure, the NPC market is borked, you're right. I'm just saying that based on what I've heard, people are using it on a large scale to make cash, and I'm guessing this isn't something that CCP wants. ...and I'm also guessing that the isk is actually pretty good, since you're comparing it to titan + freighter costs, here. And it's a nonstop cash flow. Maybe not a huge issue as such, but it might be one of the reasons for this change. Just guessing here, tho'
Abriana Overlord Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:32:00 - [241] unrequired nerf that has a huge impact on logistics CCP not really sure what is going on atm but the nerfbat is being swung a little to much with this one. Frieghtors are currently balanced and fine. there is no need for the nerf. Can you please explain why the nerf?
Kira's Shadow	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:37:00 - [242] Originally by: Nahia Senne This is brilliant news. I really like it. Whoever decided to pull BoB out of feyth just before these changes is either a dev, a strategic genious or insanely lucky. Or someone who got hints that something like this was coming... Aren't your leaders in regular contact with CCP over MSN?
Darth Nerf	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:55:00 - [243] Edited by: Darth Nerf on 02/11/2007 10:55:01 Originally by: Karina Bellac Originally by: Nahia Senne This is brilliant news. I really like it. Whoever decided to pull BoB out of feyth just before these changes is either a dev, a strategic genious or insanely lucky. Or a Clairvoyant. Don't forget to include a supernatural angle. You forgot dev's b\|tch. Buff me, nerf you!!!!
Ambani Gallente Infinitus Morti R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:15:00 - [244] This is completely fkd. Dev's - can we hear some encouraging **** on this please?
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:19:00 - [245] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 02/11/2007 11:25:06 Removed.
Dufas Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:25:00 - [246] ABS RULES! WTS Jump Freighters ----------------------------------------
Tempest Kane Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:29:00 - [247] Edited by: Tempest Kane on 02/11/2007 11:29:21 This is a bad move CCP. Your forceing all 0.0 logistical monkeys into a state of meltdown, due to the way this game is setup, anchoring times, M3 of freighters and race specific isotobes only been mined in certain areas of the universe, we allready have a hard enougth life fueling our 0.0 empires. Due to the trust required were forced to put the work onto 4-5 guys... and your making their life harder. If the 0.0 logistics guys burn out, the empires will fall, 0.0 will get boring and your game CCP will be over. Think about that when your siping your tea thinking up more ways to nerf your game into noobs online.
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:32:00 - [248] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Originally by: Alekanderu every single 0.0 (real 0.0, not NPC space) alliance is going to get hit so hard by this that it's not even funny You mean every single Titan-owning 0.0 alliance. Not true with abit of work you can have a lovely jump bridge system setup, so those that don't have the means to build a titan or afford one have a semi secure route to their space, however with the mass increase this screws that use. Quote: I suspect a large reason for this change is (also) to stop people using titan + freighters to make vast amounts of zero-risk cash by exploiting NPC market offers. I've heard this was being done, on a pretty large scale. ...but almost certainly the biggest motivation is to give a role to the new t2 jump freighters. Which is fine by me, assuming that they really will be better at 0.0 logistics than carriers. We'll see. Well change the npc market why mess with something that effects 90% of 0.0 holding alliances? Jump freighters will be nice especially for the smaller alliances, but at the moment they are only going to be ships that can be invented. The build cost alone is about 4-5 times the cost of a carrier, then on top of that you have mark up and the fact they can only carry 1/3-1/4 the amount of a normal freighter. This is just one in a long line of changes CCP keeps coming up with that most of the player base don't want and never asked to be changed
john roe Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:38:00 - [249] good move, ccp. seriously. this war is an excellent example of how unbalance this game is. killing fleets dont matter, spamming systems is hard and can be easly encountered, etc. why? cause a few men can easly portal supplies in (fuel, poses, compressed mins) with titan, or use jump bridges with freighters, making this game kinda ******** and pointless. "we killed their fleet!" oh yeah, uber but they have just bridged freighters with a shiitload of ships and mods. "oh..." yeah, oh... if this patch/nerf will make this war less total and more fun... yeah, i'm voting for it, gents. ps. still, please leave carriers/moms alone, ok? :] thx in advance.
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:21:00 - [250] Originally by: john roe good move, ccp. seriously. this war is an excellent example of how unbalance this game is. killing fleets dont matter, spamming systems is hard and can be easly encountered, etc. why? cause a few men can easly portal supplies in (fuel, poses, compressed mins) with titan, or use jump bridges with freighters, making this game kinda ******** and pointless. "we killed their fleet!" oh yeah, uber but they have just bridged freighters with a shiitload of ships and mods. "oh..." yeah, oh... if this patch/nerf will make this war less total and more fun... yeah, i'm voting for it, gents. ps. still, please leave carriers/moms alone, ok? :] thx in advance. Couldn't agree more. This game was in easy mode for far too long. Blowing ships up doesn't mean anything at this point.
chernobly Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:28:00 - [251] Edited by: chernobly on 02/11/2007 12:32:31 Quote: "we killed their fleet!" oh yeah, uber but they have just bridged freighters with a shiitload of ships and mods. they get to do that because they put in the time & effort & had the logistics in place to do it. & if you think that was an easy thing to do, you're wrong. seriously, this is another lazy 10-year-old's solution, like nerfing drones for carriers. "meh, multiply the freighter's mass by 10 so it's useless" ... no-one needs any more motivation to start using jump-capable freighters. & if you're looking to redirect titans away from logistics & toward the battlefield, the mechanics are being introduced soon. jump harmonics, anyone? the new attribute added to ships to prevent black-ops from jumping in a fleet of battleships? simply shift all the ratings up one. covert ops get 3, required for the black-ops' covert jump bridge, most ships get 2, required for titan jump bridge, & freighters get 1, so they can only use POS jump bridges. & if you want to stop freighters using POS jump bridges, you should've thought of that long ago, when you introduced the jump bridge. honestly, i think that should be one of the perks of gaining sovereignty, you no longer need to warp freighters around inside your own space. oh, silly me ... i started reading the forums e_e
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:29:00 - [252] Originally by: john roe good move, ccp. seriously. this war is an excellent example of how unbalance this game is. killing fleets dont matter, spamming systems is hard and can be easly encountered, etc. why? cause a few men can easly portal supplies in (fuel, poses, compressed mins) with titan, or use jump bridges with freighters, making this game kinda ******** and pointless. "we killed their fleet!" oh yeah, uber but they have just bridged freighters with a shiitload of ships and mods. "oh..." yeah, oh... if this patch/nerf will make this war less total and more fun... yeah, i'm voting for it, gents. ps. still, please leave carriers/moms alone, ok? :] thx in advance. agree to some degree. Also This change will force that logistic be done by normal jumping chains. That createsd more oportunity for smaller gangs to pew pew, in other words hunt logistic convoys. That is very good for the game. Also create a semi constant trafic trough low sec. Also very good. the only bad thing is the logistic guys themselves might feel bored, and that is not good. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
BrainSeller BrainSeller Trade Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:36:00 - [253] after i read through half of this thread, anyone can actually tell me exactly WHY freighters cant use jump bridges anymore after the patch? i understand for pos jump bridge modules, their cargo space is too small to even hold enough isotopes for one freighter. but what about titan jump bridge? there isnt such a limit cause it got lots of cargo space for its isotopes?! would be really nice if anyone oculd explain that to me. ty
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:36:00 - [254] Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Ztrain Yes they have basically shown us their their whole, "sandbox." concept is a complete farce and I'd go so far as to claim false advertising if I ever see a dev use the term again. As far as the logistics goes several other methods have been discovered to unnerf their stupid nerf. Z Oh, it's still a sandbox. A sandbox owned by sadists who go out and kick over the sand castles every once in a while and for good measure beat the children with hoses. I'd say it's more like a sandbox thats owned by that one kid who no one really gets along with but all our moms make us go to his birthday party anyway, and then when we're playing he gets into this huge fit about how we're not building the castle right and we need to do it like he does or he'll throw us out of his party
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:37:00 - [255] Originally by: BrainSeller after i read through half of this thread, anyone can actually tell me exactly WHY freighters cant use jump bridges anymore after the patch? i understand for pos jump bridge modules, their cargo space is too small to even hold enough isotopes for one freighter. but what about titan jump bridge? there isnt such a limit cause it got lots of cargo space for its isotopes?! would be really nice if anyone oculd explain that to me. ty Both fuel consumption is amss based, so it becomes prohibitively expensive. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Stelteck Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:39:00 - [256] CCP, look at my eyes !!! FIGHT = FUN = more and more customers. LOGISTIC = BORING = less and less customers. Stelteck.
BrainSeller BrainSeller Trade Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:40:00 - [257] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Both fuel consumption is amss based, so it becomes prohibitively expensive. so you telling me that it would be still possible just cost a few more iskies right?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:45:00 - [258] Originally by: BrainSeller Originally by: Kagura Nikon Both fuel consumption is amss based, so it becomes prohibitively expensive. so you telling me that it would be still possible just cost a few more iskies right? a few like in more than you coudl gain by transporting stuff like that between markets. Freightgers got a HUGE mass increase, not a tiny If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:46:00 - [259] Originally by: Stelteck FIGHT = FUN = more and more customers. LOGISTIC = BORING = less and less customers. THIS POST = IRRELEVANT = has nothing to do with the subject (and btw, nerfing risk-free logistics means more fights, not less. Figure it out)
Imhothar Xarodit Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:52:00 - [260] If CCP want to counter Titan bridges used by freighters then add a max. mass to the jump portal. If CCP fears nobody would use jump freighters because of jump bridge structures, then they are utterly wrong. A jump bridge cannot lead through NPC controlled territory, aka pirate regions and low-sec, so the purpose for jump freighters is stil present. This is the worst step they could have made... Additionally lowering the agility, how long does it take to align now, half an hour?
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:59:00 - [261] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Stelteck FIGHT = FUN = more and more customers. LOGISTIC = BORING = less and less customers. THIS POST = IRRELEVANT = has nothing to do with the subject (and btw, nerfing risk-free logistics means more fights, not less. Figure it out) "-EM- claims no systems." Go home and continue providing the industrial support for the matari I'm sure they need the help come back when you claim sovereignty over anything.
NeoTheo Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:12:00 - [262] ohhh dear./..... ccp in stupid shocker.
Itzena Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:15:00 - [263] Originally by: Nahia Senne Originally by: john roe good move, ccp. seriously. this war is an excellent example of how unbalance this game is. killing fleets dont matter, spamming systems is hard and can be easly encountered, etc. why? cause a few men can easly portal supplies in (fuel, poses, compressed mins) with titan, or use jump bridges with freighters, making this game kinda ******** and pointless. "we killed their fleet!" oh yeah, uber but they have just bridged freighters with a shiitload of ships and mods. "oh..." yeah, oh... if this patch/nerf will make this war less total and more fun... yeah, i'm voting for it, gents. ps. still, please leave carriers/moms alone, ok? :] thx in advance. Couldn't agree more. This game was in easy mode for far too long. Blowing ships up doesn't mean anything at this point. Your K : D ratio! Also: Your logistics people are going to want to lynch you. Just FYI. -- Nothing will improve the way things currently are.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:20:00 - [264] Originally by: Alias11 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Stelteck FIGHT = FUN = more and more customers. LOGISTIC = BORING = less and less customers. THIS POST = IRRELEVANT = has nothing to do with the subject (and btw, nerfing risk-free logistics means more fights, not less. Figure it out) "-EM- claims no systems." Go home and continue providing the industrial support for the matari I'm sure they need the help come back when you claim sovereignty over anything. And this has precisely what to do with the irrelevant FIGHT = FUN crap I was commenting on above? Sure, you'll have more difficulty in doing logistics for you sov areas. I feel your pain (I mean this honestly, actually). But for the game as a whole, I still think CCP is doing the right thing in making area-control logistics difficult, even if you happen to have a Titan. The fact that Titans don't really have a role left is another matter entirely.
Ahistaja GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:35:00 - [265] Edited by: Ahistaja on 02/11/2007 13:35:24 Originally by: Alex Harumichi Sure, you'll have more difficulty in doing logistics for you sov areas. I feel your pain (I mean this honestly, actually). But for the game as a whole, I still think CCP is doing the right thing in making area-control logistics difficult, even if you happen to have a Titan. I suspect your reasoning might be going something in the lines of "sounds like this will make it harder for large alliances to hold space, in which case us less demanding small ones will find it easier to carve out our own, yay for change". If so, then I believe you would be terribly wrong, as you also need to erect and fuel POSes to claim SOV (not to mention many, many freighter trips to build outposts). You couldn't have a large number of POSes, or you'd personally start to feel the burden of this nerf or mightn't have the money, but on the other hand, the fewer POSes you have the easier it is to knock them over or counter-spam. It simply further emphasises the most unfun aspect in this game, which affects everybody in non-NPC 0.0 space.
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:37:00 - [266] Originally by: Itzena Your K : D ratio! Also: Your logistics people are going to want to lynch you. Just FYI. I refuse to lynch myself and my K/D ratio is uber You will just have to learn what people used to do before the easy mode.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:44:00 - [267] Originally by: DeadProphet Nerfalations III Shaping up to be the worst patch ever? thats starting to look like a very good name for the patch. Not sure what the hell is going on over at ccp hq, but now they have really started to nerf a bit to much.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:47:00 - [268] Originally by: Nahia Senne This is brilliant news. I really like it. Whoever decided to pull BoB out of feyth just before these changes is either a dev, a strategic genious or insanely lucky. i think feyth just became the worst region in the game
Maxim Powers GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:50:00 - [269] Hey guys just a heads up, maybe if this was a good thing for small alliances some small alliances I know guys in wouldn't be making plans to pack up and return to empire before Rev3 hits.

Mephysto	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:54:00 - [270] I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays.

SauronTheGreat	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:55:00 - [271] The carebear Nerd Rage is strong in this thread. Go Goons!
Gilgamoth Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:55:00 - [272] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. YAY!!!! Regards, Gil Live on Eden Underground Radio every Wednesday 19:00 - 21:00 GMT.
maarud Knight of Anubis	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:56:00 - [273] God knows how people coped before carriers, titans and jump bridges... how did they do it?!? Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member <t20> i'd rather have a python in my pants than a sleipnir
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:58:00 - [274] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 02/11/2007 13:58:41 Hm. I do like this change in parts, and I dislike some other stuff about it. Of course, we claim no systems, are stupid RPers who have no clue, and should just go home and let the real men play this game. In case you agree, please skip the remainder of this post. What I do like about it is that the logistics of claiming space shouldn't suddenly be a whole lot easier just because you have a Titan (Titans need a role, but that shouldn't be "sov logistics"). So that's cool. What I do like about the jump bridges (POS module) is that you can erect a logistics network within your empire, and an aggressor can interrupt it by attacking key systems. This will also be less effective with jump freighters, thought I would like it to be more relevant, not less. So what I would like to see with this chane is an increase in cargo hold for jump bridges to allow one freighter to jump through. Titans don't need to jump freighters around, though. Edit: Just as a note, I started this post before Mephysto answered.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:00:00 - [275] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2007 14:01:05 Originally by: Ahistaja I suspect your reasoning might be going something in the lines of "sounds like this will make it harder for large alliances to hold space, in which case us less demanding small ones will find it easier to carve out our own, yay for change". Something like that, yes. Quote: If so, then I believe you would be terribly wrong, as you also need to erect and fuel POSes to claim SOV (not to mention many, many freighter trips to build outposts). You couldn't have a large number of POSes, or you'd personally start to feel the burden of this nerf or mightn't have the money, but on the other hand, the fewer POSes you have the easier it is to knock them over or counter-spam. It simply further emphasises the most unfun aspect in this game, which affects everybody in non-NPC 0.0 space. Well, could be. We already have POSes and I'm aware of some of the issues, but as noted EM does not claim space and we haven't looked into the sov stuff too hard yet. I'm quite aware of how diffucult logistics is, and of the fact that you need to organize in order to do it. Industrial ops and logistics is what our corp does. I guess my point was more along the lines of "this change evens out the differences between alliances that have a Titan vs those who don't". Added: ah, so the change wasn't intended. Never mind then.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:07:00 - [276] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. blammo
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:13:00 - [277] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Nohl Faugh a Ballagh	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:17:00 - [278] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Why are you posting? Quit posting.
cflux Caldari FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:22:00 - [279] Originally by: Nohl A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Why are you posting? Quit posting. Look daddy there is, Nohl, Faughh a Ballatrolled. -- Lord Chaos - Only add Fluxcage.
HostageTaker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:25:00 - [280] You know what this thread needs? Less Goonies posting and more Goonies hauling! Start fueling those recently "acquired" regions children, get that fuel in fast! >>> EvE-Online Wallpapers <<<
Viktor Konstantine GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:35:00 - [281] Originally by: HostageTaker Start fueling those recently "acquired" regions children, get that fuel in fast! You didn't want them anyway
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:35:00 - [282] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 02/11/2007 14:35:04 Originally by: HostageTaker You know what this thread needs? Less Goonies posting and more Goonies hauling! Start fueling those recently "acquired" regions children, get that fuel in fast! didn't want those regions anyway efb like a little *****
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:40:00 - [283] Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Nohl Faugh a Ballagh	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:42:00 - [284] Originally by: cflux Originally by: Nohl A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Why are you posting? Quit posting. Look daddy there is, Nohl, Faughh a Ballatrolled. You mean he wasn't serious? NO WAY. I am completely and totally in shock right now. I mean. Wow. That looked SO TOTALLY serious I can't even believe it. Or... you're an idiot, cflux. Do everyone a favor and get off the internet before you spread dumb to the zeroes and ones.
cflux Caldari FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:45:00 - [285] Edited by: cflux on 02/11/2007 14:47:08 Edited by: cflux on 02/11/2007 14:46:16 Originally by: Nohl You mean he wasn't serious? NO WAY. I am completely and totally in shock right now. I mean. Wow. That looked SO TOTALLY serious I can't even believe it. Or... you're an idiot, cflux. Do everyone a favor and get off the internet before you spread dumb to the zeroes and ones. Or maybe, just maybe you do not understand ** about teh internets? Trolled, twice - medal of honor and all that jazz. IM SO TOTALLY** SERIOUS DUDE. I'm so going to stab forks to my eyes right now. -- Lord Chaos - Only add Fluxcage.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:47:00 - [286] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Marshal Boddiker Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:49:00 - [287] Originally by: HostageTaker You know what this thread needs? Less Goonies posting and more Goonies hauling! Start fueling those recently "acquired" regions children, get that fuel in fast! Welp. There's not much of a rush now that the 'nerfs' are confirmed as an error. We'll continue to work on our postcounts for now, thanks anyway.
Nohl Faugh a Ballagh	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:49:00 - [288] Originally by: cflux Or maybe, just maybe you do not understand **** about teh internets? Trolled, twice - medal of honor and all that jazz. sigh If it wasn't already obvious, you're the one being trolled here. The irony... it's so delish.
cflux Caldari FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:53:00 - [289] Originally by: Dianabolic Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. This is pretty much correct. I'm thinking that this was also their idea before community spammed it to death. If we hamper the ways people can maintain multiregion alliances - space will feel big again and more diplomatics need to be in play. Like Dian posts, for current BOB this would have been extremely dramatic, we would have had to evolve very rapidly. But overall for the game, it would have been pretty intresting. -- Lord Chaos - Only add Fluxcage.
Shoukei Boobs Ahoy	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:53:00 - [290] Originally by: Nohl Originally by: cflux Or maybe, just maybe you do not understand **** about teh internets? Trolled, twice - medal of honor and all that jazz. sigh If it wasn't already obvious, you're the one being trolled here. The irony... it's so delish. sigh NO U CAOD that way >>>>>>> here be signatures!
Nohl Faugh a Ballagh	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:01:00 - [291] Originally by: Shoukei CAOD that way >>>>>>> You're not the boss of me. :colbert:
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:02:00 - [292] The problem isn't a lack of space, the problem is a lack of alliances capable of holding it.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:03:00 - [293] Originally by: Alexander Omega Hey, CCP! Here is a great idea! How about you talk to the main alliance leaders and their logistics guys & fleet commanders about what changes should be made. That way you fix the problems that we moan about the most while not making a huge mechanics change that will pull the rug out from under us because our strategic planning relies on the mechanics staying largely the same especialy in logistics and large fleet operations. That's... a remarkably non-great idea. "Hey BoB, what could we add to the game to make your life easier?" Yeah. That'd go over really well with people.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:08:00 - [294] Edited by: Karina Bellac on 02/11/2007 15:07:53 Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Good backtrack. It's just a bug. That extra '0' just slipped into the data in a freak replication bug. Glad it only took 10 pages to bring this bug to your attention.
Marshal Boddiker Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:10:00 - [295] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Alexander Omega Hey, CCP! Here is a great idea! How about you talk to the main alliance leaders and their logistics guys & fleet commanders about what changes should be made. That way you fix the problems that we moan about the most while not making a huge mechanics change that will pull the rug out from under us because our strategic planning relies on the mechanics staying largely the same especialy in logistics and large fleet operations. That's... a remarkably non-great idea. "Hey BoB, what could we add to the game to make your life easier?" Yeah. That'd go over really well with people. Don't BoB have weekly meetings with CCP developers that basically start with that question? :tinfoil:
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:10:00 - [296] This makes me glad DR is no longer a space-holding entity... Christ, we lost people due to POS logistics before. They would have shot themselves outright with these changes.
ardik TunkbwahCorp	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:10:00 - [297] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. Except, if a large alliance with say 5000 members with multiple smaller, capabable corps within it then the alliance could just assign some corps to take care of certain constellations, you know, like bob does it with fountain, delve and period basis. There's absolutely no reason for this change to force large alliances to fragment as long as they aren't run entirely as a single unit. Or do you mean that goonswarm is the pinnacle of eve diplomacy with its massive alliance? Smaller groups making it on their own is a joke. If they have good space they will be conquered. Hell, they'd probably lose all their space if someone anchored a faction deathstar or two in their home systems since taking those out with a small group is pretty much suicide. But I guess you already know this since you had the plans ready to conquer all of 0.0 at a point and this sudden change of heart is just ****ty propaganda, but hey, that's what eve-o is for.
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Pax Atlantis	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:11:00 - [298] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Erm the change was good why are you not implementing her?The whiners ?......
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:11:00 - [299] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. Did you get this from Fanfest or MSN this time Dian? ------------------------------------------------
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:15:00 - [300] Originally by: Malachon Draco Did you get this from Fanfest or MSN this time Dian? The amount of trolling you do, Malachon, I'd have hoped you would know how to read by now. Education systems are failing globally, it seems. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:16:00 - [301] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. Furthermore, the change is nonsensical. It would only last 6 months MAX. By then all the alliances would have built enough jumpfreighters to compensate for the loss of jumpbridges and carrierlogistics. At best it would have given a short time of relief, but in reality not even that because newer alliances would still not be able to claim space effectively for themselves without jumpfreighters. And in the meantime it would have made deep 0.0 completely unattractive. Deep 0.0, such as Feythabolis, Esoteria, Paragon Soul... ------------------------------------------------
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:18:00 - [302] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 02/11/2007 15:20:52 Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Malachon Draco Did you get this from Fanfest or MSN this time Dian? The amount of trolling you do, Malachon, I'd have hoped you would know how to read by now. Education systems are failing globally, it seems. Perhaps, having finished my education quite a while ago I wouldn't know. But with the history of contact between CCP and BoB, you will have to forgive people for being distrustful of such an UNANNOUNCED change to be dropped on Eve just after BoB decides to reduce its need for POS logistics by about 50%. Or would you claim that if you can't carrier fuel around anymore, and you can't jumpbridge it anymore, that you could still have supplied the POS in PS, Eso and Feyth like you did until now? I'd really like you to answer that question. Edit: also note I have no interest in POS logistics myself anymore, not to any great extent really. Left all sovereignty **** behind me a few weeks ago. But I do think it would have been extremely bad form to drop such a bomb on alliances who have spent months and years developing their space under the assumption they could supply them with carriers and now jumpportals and yank that away without any explanation. ------------------------------------------------
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:21:00 - [303] Can we just keep politics in the stinkhole called CAOD? Amarr Mineral Index
Alexander Omega	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:26:00 - [304] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: Alexander Omega Hey, CCP! Here is a great idea! How about you talk to the main alliance leaders and their logistics guys & fleet commanders about what changes should be made. That way you fix the problems that we moan about the most while not making a huge mechanics change that will pull the rug out from under us because our strategic planning relies on the mechanics staying largely the same especialy in logistics and large fleet operations. That's... a remarkably non-great idea. "Hey BoB, what could we add to the game to make your life easier?" Yeah. That'd go over really well with people. They would go to both sides, what ever both sides agree needs to be changed should be.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:29:00 - [305] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Maybe if the stats are incorrect, you all should stop putting them on Singularity? Or, knowing that everyone and their brother is living on Sisi at the moment BECAUSE of all the changes, maybe you could announce them beforehand? It doesn't take long to make a forum post with what and why.
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:34:00 - [306] Originally by: Malachon Draco Perhaps, having finished my education quite a while ago I wouldn't know. But with the history of contact between CCP and BoB, you will have to forgive people for being distrustful of such an UNANNOUNCED change to be dropped on Eve just after BoB decides to reduce its need for POS logistics by about 50%. Or would you claim that if you can't carrier fuel around anymore, and you can't jumpbridge it anymore, that you could still have supplied the POS in PS, Eso and Feyth like you did until now? I'd really like you to answer that question. Edit: also note I have no interest in POS logistics myself anymore, not to any great extent really. Left all sovereignty **** behind me a few weeks ago. But I do think it would have been extremely bad form to drop such a bomb on alliances who have spent months and years developing their space under the assumption they could supply them with carriers and now jumpportals and yank that away without any explanation. Here is a man who knows his stuff and who knows how CCP operates. His words are not tinfoil, they are the absolute and unyielding truth. God bless you and those who are like you.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:38:00 - [307] Originally by: Nahia Senne Originally by: Malachon Draco Perhaps, having finished my education quite a while ago I wouldn't know. But with the history of contact between CCP and BoB, you will have to forgive people for being distrustful of such an UNANNOUNCED change to be dropped on Eve just after BoB decides to reduce its need for POS logistics by about 50%. Or would you claim that if you can't carrier fuel around anymore, and you can't jumpbridge it anymore, that you could still have supplied the POS in PS, Eso and Feyth like you did until now? I'd really like you to answer that question. Edit: also note I have no interest in POS logistics myself anymore, not to any great extent really. Left all sovereignty **** behind me a few weeks ago. But I do think it would have been extremely bad form to drop such a bomb on alliances who have spent months and years developing their space under the assumption they could supply them with carriers and now jumpportals and yank that away without any explanation. Here is a man who knows his stuff and who knows how CCP operates. His words are not tinfoil, they are the absolute and unyielding truth. God bless you and those who are like you. You're avoiding the question. In your opinion, would you have been able to maintain all the sovereignty POSses in those 3 regions you just abandoned after these changes had gone through? Will any big alliance be able to maintain the amount of POS they had before? ------------------------------------------------
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:40:00 - [308] Originally by: Nahia Senne Originally by: Malachon Draco Perhaps, having finished my education quite a while ago I wouldn't know. But with the history of contact between CCP and BoB, you will have to forgive people for being distrustful of such an UNANNOUNCED change to be dropped on Eve just after BoB decides to reduce its need for POS logistics by about 50%. Or would you claim that if you can't carrier fuel around anymore, and you can't jumpbridge it anymore, that you could still have supplied the POS in PS, Eso and Feyth like you did until now? I'd really like you to answer that question. Edit: also note I have no interest in POS logistics myself anymore, not to any great extent really. Left all sovereignty **** behind me a few weeks ago. But I do think it would have been extremely bad form to drop such a bomb on alliances who have spent months and years developing their space under the assumption they could supply them with carriers and now jumpportals and yank that away without any explanation. Here is a man who knows his stuff and who knows how CCP operates. His words are not tinfoil, they are the absolute and unyielding truth. God bless you and those who are like you. hey are bob allowed to disagree with dianabolic on the forums, even in sarcasm?
Ace101 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:40:00 - [309] Edited by: Ace101 on 02/11/2007 15:40:45 more breaking of the game... how about we fix lag first? Brute Force
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 15:55:00 - [310] Originally by: Swamp Ziro hey are bob allowed to disagree with dianabolic on the forums, even in sarcasm? I feel like a nice person today. For this reason, I will spread my attention equally. Even among the desperate ones
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:46:00 - [311] Originally by: maarud God knows how people coped before carriers, titans and jump bridges... how did they do it?!? without carriers and titans and jump bridges trying to stop them from doing it
Havoc GunStar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:56:00 - [312] Originally by: Karina Bellac Edited by: Karina Bellac on 02/11/2007 15:07:53 Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Good backtrack. It's just a bug. That extra '0' just slipped into the data in a freak replication bug. Glad it only took 10 pages to bring this bug to your attention. Also the extra zero in the mass modifier. Those rascally zeros, sneaking around, conspiring against the devs.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:16:00 - [313] Originally by: maarud God knows how people coped before carriers, titans and jump bridges... how did they do it?!? well back then 3 pos in one station system and there were only 3 outposts per region in the good ones. Now days even ****holes like geminate, providence, and tribute have 7, 6 and 8 outposts respectively. I think something like 20% of the systems in catch have a station in them. To get to the point, the amount of logistics that needs to be done to run the same amount of space has increased dramatically.
Wet shorts	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:21:00 - [314] Originally by: Loco Apophis Now I have seen it all, goons caring about a game, and specially the carebear part of it. thats why u r loosing regions?
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:26:00 - [315] bob in this thread are hilarious, went from wanting to own 0.0 and maintaining a giant empire to wanting to nerf large empires and favoring small local enclaves in like a week. Sounds a little bitter to me.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:32:00 - [316] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Second time in less than a fortnight that an unnanounced changed that made it onto sisi has been proclaimed as a mistake. Perhaps you should be spending more time looking at your operating practices and less time nerfing logistics.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.11.02 17:55:00 - [317] Hopefully this will change the VAST amounts of 0.0 which are completely empty but "owned" by blob alliances using carriers, jump bridges, and titan jump bridges to "conttol" said space. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:03:00 - [318] Originally by: Graalum bob in this thread are hilarious, went from wanting to own 0.0 and maintaining a giant empire to wanting to nerf large empires and favoring small local enclaves in like a week. Sounds a little bitter to me. Yep. Only six months ago BoB were looking for vassals to rent out RSF castle regions like Detorid and Scalding Pass. Don't you give us this crap about wanting to return to 'simpler times', because BoB has never been about being a small-time empire at any point in their history. And I'm sure none of them honestly want to see freighter convoys so why do they insist on wanting logistics to be harder, even if it's a troll?
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:33:00 - [319] Originally by: Havoc GunStar Originally by: Karina Bellac Edited by: Karina Bellac on 02/11/2007 15:07:53 Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Good backtrack. It's just a bug. That extra '0' just slipped into the data in a freak replication bug. Glad it only took 10 pages to bring this bug to your attention. Also the extra zero in the mass modifier. Those rascally zeros, sneaking around, conspiring against the devs. Oh man, you're right. I can't believe I missed that. Anyone might think that Sisi has a security hole or something...
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:49:00 - [320] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. dis post trolls itself so imma just chill
Kublai Khan Caldari TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:49:00 - [321] I wish this had gone through as well. It would have made 0.0 life abit harder, but it would force ppl to do more thing in 0.0 instead of getting everything in empire and move it out to 0.0. CCP could instead add more compact ore of low and mid end minerals, more ice fields and so on to make life out there abit easier. Less profitt of low ends in empire and easier to mine in 0.0. Read again what Dianabolic said. The only thing they didnt have to put into effect was the short warprange of freighters. That should have been increased instead.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:50:00 - [322] Originally by: Kublai Khan I wish this had gone through as well. It would have made 0.0 life abit harder, but it would force ppl to do more thing in 0.0 instead of getting everything in empire and move it out to 0.0. CCP could instead add more compact ore of low and mid end minerals, more ice fields and so on to make life out there abit easier. Less profitt of low ends in empire and easier to mine in 0.0. Read again what Dianabolic said. The only thing they didnt have to put into effect was the short warprange of freighters. That should have been increased instead. he pretty much just said oh god bees
Vile rat GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:53:00 - [323] Quote: Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. wow.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:58:00 - [324] You freaking BoB guys ***** me up. The only reason you do not want this to go thru is because it would make it harder for your enemies than you. BTW, if you guys really meant what you are saying, you would be asking for a nerf to WTZ and jumping ranges so that you couldn't project force half-way across eve so quickly. Stop being hypocrites. ☺☻☺☻☺ SO how do you get me to stop posting? Bump this thread Until devs answer
Pac SubCom A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:18:00 - [325] An interesting viewpoint, Dianabolic. Who knows, the nerf has not come through yet. Maybe CCP can still make this particularization reality. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Carsidava Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:27:00 - [326] Originally by: Swamp Ziro efb like a little ***** Beaten like R.I.S.E. in RIT.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:28:00 - [327] Originally by: Kublai Khan I wish this had gone through as well. It would have made 0.0 life abit harder, but it would force ppl to do more thing in 0.0 instead of getting everything in empire and move it out to 0.0. CCP could instead add more compact ore of low and mid end minerals, more ice fields and so on to make life out there abit easier. Less profitt of low ends in empire and easier to mine in 0.0. Read again what Dianabolic said. The only thing they didnt have to put into effect was the short warprange of freighters. That should have been increased instead. The problem is that this is a game. I do not want to spend 8 or 16 or 24 or 32 or 40 hours of my real time running a freighter op so that I can get a freighter into Deklein (for instance). There is no fun in that. None. Freighter ops are For The Freaking Loss already... anything that exponentially adds to the time it takes to run them is poor form (horribly). Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Amuterasu	Posted - 2007.11.02 19:52:00 - [328] For the 10% of people who think this is a good idea, let me see if I can refute some of your assumptions as to why this is "good" 1. It's good because it will make 0.0 logistics harder which, which will make larger Alliances condense, giving small Alliances better access to 0.0 Wrong, the current large alliances, if required to reduce their territory, will end up "camping" the low sec entrances to 0.0. Notice how BoB only abandoned their space that is far from easy low sec access, while keeping Delve, Fountain and Querious? They attacked Catch/Providence probably to get more low sec gateway regions (and try to improve morale.) If your small alliance is lucky, you might be able to pay for access to the deep 0.0 space, which you will then have to provide logistics to (have fun with that). Considering the large alliance will probably claim all the good moons, Deep 0.0 profits (less access fees, jump and POS fuel, ratting time lost to Freighter ops) will stink. If a small alliance wants access to 0.0 follow the Venom model: a. Contact a large alliance, b. offer to and go and take some space the large alliance needs denied their enemy, c. profit. Is that easy? No, but 0.0 shouldnÆt just be about ôWho am I renting from this month?ö Also, what if I find it fun being part of a large alliance? Has CCP stated that large alliances are inherently unfun and therefore shouldnÆt be allowed? I donÆt think so, but in case I missed that memo, nerf the Empire Mgmt skill, not freighters. Lastly, I donÆt see a lack of diplomacy in this war (that the presence of more small alliances would some how resolve) While its true one side in this war doesnÆt seem to be good at diplomacy (6b / month, take it or leave it), the other side seems to some how gotten close to 10,000 pilots, speaking at least three different languages, spread across multiple time zones to focus and coordinate operations. Clearly no diplomacy there. 2. Use haulers not freighters = More targets = more pew pew. Wrong, More haulers equals more BS escorts (50+) = more lag = everyone bi*** about lag in large fleet battles Also, there is an assumption by some posters here that EVE should be only focused on making small gang warfare fun. If you like small gang combat, good for you, I like it too. Breaking News, not EVERYONE in EVE cares about pew pew. Some people like building trade empires or mining and building ships, this nerf makes their lives harder, thus less fun. Why make empire miners / haulers have less fun, so that another type of player can have more fun? Which wonÆt happen anyway (see above.) 3. OMGWTF two guys run all the GS logistics by themselves? We so need this nerf. Wrong. Stampert & Greyton manage a very large team of players who help them, and they still have to work their tails off. Also, keep in mind that while GS has Sov in 5 regions (7-KXBJ, SP, Detorid, Tenerifis, Feyth), they donÆt own all the systems in that region. In fact, they currently control less systems than BoB. What they did do was put together a plan that focused on making logistics easier (jump briges, MSes, dedicated worker pool). I would think CCP would want more people developing and executing plans like this To summarize: Nerfing Freighters will not give smaller Alliances more of a chance in 0.0 because the large Alliances will just camp the entrances to 0.0 space Nerfing Freighters will not generate more pew pew, just more lag. 0.0 Logistics is not too easy. However it can be made easier with proper planning. Skill training, infrastructure and corp / alliance support.
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:05:00 - [329] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Dianabolic Not what the dev's have said at Fanfest though, is it Mephysto? A shame, too, once again you've let noise prevent you from making a change that actually would have benefited the game. When will you learn? Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. Judging by the amount of the posts against the freighter nerf your outlook is in the minority. CCP has 'given in' to what their paying players have called for and not followed through with what would have been against the vast majority of players wishes. This was not a shame, this was the only correct course of action.
Seonae STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:08:00 - [330] Originally by: Amuterasu 0.0 Logistics is not too easy. However it can be made easier with proper planning. Skill training, infrastructure and corp / alliance support. And this about sums it up and explains why the devs are basically 'just not getting it'. Apparently they think using 5 cyno alts and 4 real players to get a handfull of supplies from empire to feythabolis is 'easy'. Skip the fact that moving your logistics requires a fair bit of logistical planning all on it's own. Skip the fact that I shouldn't have to pay someone else (CCP in this case) so I can work at a part-time job (Anyone who's done any serious logistics knows damn well that it's a labour of misguided love at best), let alone pay them so I can work a full-time 2nd job and not enjoy the game. We'll see how things go, clearly there is still time for them to put down the booze, sober up, and realize that they're effectively ****ing in their own beds and will be forced to sleep in them soon enough.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:13:00 - [331] There are a lot of things about this change which, in conjunction with other rumored changes to 0.0 logistics, makes HELL of a lot of sense. The changes I'm thinking of are: 1. This one... 2. Compression change... 3. Carrier cargo change... The main deficiency of 0.0 today is that the only thing that really goes on there, is fighting, ratting or exploring. There's no mining/trading or production of significance, since its much easier to import mineral from empire where you have an endless amount of macro-miners willing to slave away. Implementing these changes will have a lot of good effects on the GAME, though it may be harsh on a number of current alliances. It being hard on some alliances is ok, after all, you can't make an omelet without it being hard on a few eggs either. The main benefits coming from this are: 1. It'll force alliances to control a much smaller area. All the complaints are basically from a point of view that 'we-want-to-control-a-massive-number-of-regions'... Having one alliance control that much territory is bad for the game, since it doesn't leave any space in 0.0 for smaller, newer alliances that want to get in. 2. If the transport of minerals from high-sec is more or less shut down, it'll make a lot of ISK-farmers children very hungry. I think we can all agree on the very positive nature of that... 3. If the transport of mineral from high-sec becomes too cumbersome, 0.0 alliances will be FORCED to start taking other people than just PvP'ers. They'll HAVE to let miners/traders/builders/etc. into their areas, and to protect them just like any 'empire' should do. Maybe it'll finally turn 0.0 into true, independent player-run empires, not just PvP arenas. 4. It'll make POS-spamming a much more cumbersome tactic. It may also in general reduce the number of POS in the game making POS warfare less boring. And, all the people saying that 'in-6-months-we'll-be-back-at-the-same-point-with-jump-freighters' are forgetting a number of very important points. 1. It only holds 1/4 (?) the cargo of a freighter. 2. It costs (afaik) 2.7 times the amount of fuel a carrier uses to jump it. 3. It only has 2/3 of the range of a carrier. 4. The skill requirements are MUCH higher than a freighter/carrier. All this together should suffice to keep the number of them relatively low, and even if they reach the same numbers, the cost, range and cargo reduction would still make them have much less impact. In short, seen from a GAME perspective, this could have a very good outcome once the hysterical screaming of current big-landowner alliances fades away. No single alliance should be able to control so large a part of what is after all a limited resource in EVE, this being 0.0 space. If an alliance holds more than 1, 2 or MAYBE 3 (if its a very big alliance), then it just shuts a lot of other players out of that part of the game. That's not a good thing.... Anything that helps prevent this (like the above mentioned changes) is GOOD! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kilostream Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:26:00 - [332] Originally by: Kheldon Fel Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME etc Quote this if you're down /quoted /signed
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:26:00 - [333] Originally by: Grayton This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your ***** POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You contradicting yourself here..... All POS stay up.... Logistics guys burn out.... POS doesn't stay up.... This (together with the other cargo nerfs) WILL reduce the number of POS up, and WILL reduce the amount of territory a 0.0 alliance can hold on a per member basis. This is VERY good for the game! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mark Amarr Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:28:00 - [334] Originally by: Kheldon Fel Originally by: Grayton CCP WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU JESUS CHRIST WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO STUPID HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY EVER EVEN CONSIDER THIS AS BEING A GOOD IDEA THAT WOULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE GAME etc Quote this if you're down /signed
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:43:00 - [335] Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. CCP, you really are a bunch of wimps. Grow some freaking balls. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:47:00 - [336] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. CCP, you really are a bunch of wimps. Grow some freaking balls. Most successful companies pay attention when they release a product and their customers all refuse to buy/purchase/renew contracts/etc. MMO's are no different. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
SkyLander Minmatar Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:01:00 - [337] Edited by: SkyLander on 02/11/2007 21:02:30 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Grayton This isn't going to reduce the number of POSes. You know why? Because the entire way your ******* POS game mechanic works means that that isn't going to happen. The same number of POSes are going to stay up. The same people are going to do the major burden of most of the work. The only difference is those people will burn out a hundred times faster, as will anyone else that tries to help with logistics. You contradicting yourself here..... All POS stay up.... Logistics guys burn out.... POS doesn't stay up.... This (together with the other cargo nerfs) WILL reduce the number of POS up, and WILL reduce the amount of territory a 0.0 alliance can hold on a per member basis. This is VERY good for the game! Look who is calling who contradicting. Logistics guys burn out means less people playing, less people paying, less money going into the game. Game becomes more work to keep POSs up. People will move into empire because life in 0.0 becomes more of a pain than it already is. So less people for you to shoot short of war deccing. What is the point of going into 0.0 space then short of ratting. So no, it isn't very good for the game. __________________________________________________
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:05:00 - [338] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Shadowsword Care to elaborate? How would it have benefited the game? Primarily, it would have forced groups to compress their space - allowing for more, smaller, groups. This was first forced by constellation sovereignty and would be further enhanced by this change. I think we can all agree that more groups, trying to make it on their own, is a good thing. I don't think it would work. By now most big entities moved to a feudal-like model. A lot of big alliances already own more space that is needed for their size. But, by renting said space to smaller corps/alliances, the big ones can always use more and more space. As long as they have the military muscle, and mobility, they can still expand. What will it really do, if POS are harder to keep fueled? Big alliances will focus on sovereignty POS, and rent mining POS, or won't use all the valuable ressources of controlled regions. Quote: It would also make it very difficult for one group, regardless of numbers, to control vast swathes of space - thus forcing more diplomacy (which imo is one of the greatest aspects of eve). There are others, making it dangerous to do logistics once more, aswell as making space "big", again, but those are the biggies that I thought when I initially saw this change. Ah well, it would have made life different for BoB, too, but most of all it's a shame that CCP have given in to the "threadnaught" from the community (and not just the goons) once again. /me shrugs. Logistics would be more dangerous, yes, which is a relatively good thing, but the grind and sheer time involved would far outweight the benefit, imho. 0.0 space has no need to be made more tedious, compared to empire. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:28:00 - [339] Frieghter Nerf Carrier Nerf Rorqual Nerf 6b+ Jump Freighter CCP sure wants people moving out to 0.0 don't they. CCP screws up 0.0, lets all blob Jita with 10k people to pay final respects to what was a good game. Ultima Online once laughed at people threatening to leave... all games do until it happens. CCP, if you are going to completely ** off your EVE players, do it AFTER your "Hello Werewolf Adventure Island" is out and doing well. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet** Skeet L33t
jongalt	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:28:00 - [340] kerfira, i am in complete agreement with your point of view. -jg.
Alias11 GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.02 21:38:00 - [341] futher i declare war on your sig. also itt people don't know the difference between challenging/exciting and tedious as hell
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.02 23:51:00 - [342] Originally by: SkyLander Originally by: Kerfira My stuff.... Look who is calling who contradicting. Logistics guys burn out means less people playing, less people paying, less money going into the game. Game becomes more work to keep POSs up. People will move into empire because life in 0.0 becomes more of a pain than it already is. So less people for you to shoot short of war deccing. What is the point of going into 0.0 space then short of ratting. So no, it isn't very good for the game. You're not thinking this through.... AND you're thinking VERY short-term (rather than burn out, people would adjust so they didn't). You're going from the (false) assumptions that: 1. Alliances absolutely HAS to claim the same amount of territory as today. 2. Alliances absolutely HAS to transport minerals/fuel from empire. These couldn't be true if empire->0.0 mass hauling got nerfed, and they are in fact descriptive of some of what is WRONG with 0.0 today! It IS too easy to claim huge amounts of space. This leads to too little 0.0 space being available for smaller alliances. It IS too easy to fuel said space by empire imports. This leads to 0.0 being a barren PvP wasteland only and not fully thriving economies. Moving mining and production to 0.0 is not going to be doable by words and fine intentions. It's going to require a fair amount of stick to! Some logistics people may indeed burn out if their alliances tries to overdo what they can manage (though I think a far more realistic outcome is quick territory downsizings), but even if that happens it is a small price to pay for the benefits such a change would bring. We're not talking even 100's of players here, but maybe max. 10-20'ish who'll leave.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:00:00 - [343] Edited by: Kerfira on 03/11/2007 00:00:57 And oh, by the way.... 0.0 was thriving before there was freighters, titans and POS jump-bridges in the game! No reason why it can't do so again! It even had better developed economies then than today. A hauler spawn was a treasure immediately warranting alliance wide attention! Cooperative mining ops were needed to supply the alliances with what they needed! Putting up an outpost was a REAL accomplishment, something to feel proud of because it was a true effort! These aspects of alliance life got squashed when easy import became possible and left 0.0 a more limited place afterwards. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
debbbzzz	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:09:00 - [344] It really wasnt that long ago when we had warp to 15km on gates , and all logistical events to 0.0 envolved defense / scouting.. I dont like the idea of not being able to get huge quantities of gear out to 0.0 easily as I have some of these ships that are being nerfed. But!! I do think this is a good idea none the less . living in 0.0 shouldnt be too easy , and attacking supply lines should be easier than relying on taking down a jump bridge on a deathstar pos. /me waits for the local 0.0 market prices to reflect the difficulty in getting the stuff out there in the first place.
Pac SubCom A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.11.03 01:07:00 - [345] Originally by: Liang Nuren Most successful companies pay attention when they release a product and their customers all refuse to buy/purchase/renew contracts/etc. MMO's are no different. Liang Not if customers are whining kiddies whose irrational demands could spell doom for the whole in the long run, if fulfilled. It's a choice between losing some now, or losing many in the future. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.11.03 02:19:00 - [346] Originally by: Karina Bellac Edited by: Karina Bellac on 02/11/2007 15:07:53 Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. Good backtrack. It's just a bug. That extra '0' just slipped into the data in a freak replication bug. Glad it only took 10 pages to bring this bug to your attention. I doubt it as that would be 2 bugs, one extra zero in mass and another extra zero in agility to compensate. I don't believe in such coincidences.
infinityshok	Posted - 2007.11.03 04:36:00 - [347] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Mephysto I dont have the full details at this time, however I can assure you that the current freighter stats on Singularity are incorrect. I am working to get the correct changes made, but i have no ETA at this time. I have been assured that they will not be prevented from using jump bridge arrays. CCP, you really are a bunch of wimps. Grow some freaking balls. I congratulate you on your own showing of balls when your own incorrect opinion is in the minority.
Samurai XII	Posted - 2007.11.03 04:39:00 - [348] This is PART II of the big move to make people quit EVE = less lag for the noobs that are left! ______________________ Just another cool alt.
Kryton Bitterstar	Posted - 2007.11.03 05:54:00 - [349] Edited by: Kryton Bitterstar on 03/11/2007 05:55:27 if this goes through. they better freaking give hauler pilots cb radio channels and semi truck horns. edit: btw LFW after patch! you pay i HAUL ... and i aint cheap!
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.03 06:40:00 - [350] Originally by: debbbzzz living in 0.0 shouldnt be too easy BUT IT ISN'T It's mind-numbing, soul crushingly hard for anyone who does any kind of logistics. For christs sake, shut up.
Kublai Khan Caldari TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.03 06:50:00 - [351] Heh, maybe CCP would get more customers because more ppl could now dwell in 0.0 space and populate that instead of being stuck in empire running missions or mining veldespar. But I think the nerf should come with extras for 0.0 tho to make it easier to live there and supply your alliance from 0.0 instead of hauling everything you need from empire. Heck, might even make it less pro*****ble to be a macro miner in empire as well if 0.0 could get its own trit quicker than today...
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.03 08:11:00 - [352] Originally by: Pac SubCom Not if customers are whining kiddies whose irrational demands could spell doom for the whole in the long run, if fulfilled. It's a choice between losing some now, or losing many in the future. Sure, that's always going to be true. However, most new business is arrived at via word of mouth. The word of mouth would be "God this game is un-*****-believably-boring" Fortunately, they called off the dogs on this nerf. Liang -- Retired forum ***. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Varrakk Chosen Path	Posted - 2007.11.03 08:56:00 - [353] It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space. Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going **** off alot of people
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.03 09:16:00 - [354] Originally by: Varrakk It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space. Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going ** off alot of people In which case, we're no worse off than today! For sure it's not going to solve itself if CCP doesn't do anything. And the amount of people ed off IS already great, ie. the people who would like to live in 0.0, but can't find a corner to do so in because its all taken! Making those happy at the cost of a few logistics people? Good trade! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sapater Minmatar Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.03 09:22:00 - [355] OK comming from a Loggie in rl and in eve(4 years) I see where they are going with this. Its about time they forced aliances to realy exploit 0.0 ATM its all about posses which are used to mine mins for t2 prod which are shiped back to emp for production they need to force the aliances to pull out of emp and focus their efforts in 0.0 Protecting their miners and their log chains. In game their are all the facilitys to build in 0.0 but they arnt getting used as much as they would like, instead the chains go all the way back to empire and this was never their intension from the begining. I see its going to hurt for a while and a lot of aliances will have to rethink just due to the Logisitics invloved. In Australia we have faced similer problems for a long time....... so all in all this statement is pretty correct. Quote: There are a lot of things about this change which, in conjunction with other rumored changes to 0.0 logistics, makes HELL of a lot of sense. The changes I'm thinking of are: 1. This one... 2. Compression change... 3. Carrier cargo change... The main deficiency of 0.0 today is that the only thing that really goes on there, is fighting, ratting or exploring. There's no mining/trading or production of significance, since its much easier to import mineral from empire where you have an endless amount of macro-miners willing to slave away. Implementing these changes will have a lot of good effects on the GAME, though it may be harsh on a number of current alliances. It being hard on some alliances is ok, after all, you can't make an omelet without it being hard on a few eggs either. The main benefits coming from this are: 1. It'll force alliances to control a much smaller area. All the complaints are basically from a point of view that 'we-want-to-control-a-massive-number-of-regions'... Having one alliance control that much territory is bad for the game, since it doesn't leave any space in 0.0 for smaller, newer alliances that want to get in. 2. If the transport of minerals from high-sec is more or less shut down, it'll make a lot of ISK-farmers children very hungry. I think we can all agree on the very positive nature of that... 3. If the transport of mineral from high-sec becomes too cumbersome, 0.0 alliances will be FORCED to start taking other people than just PvP'ers. They'll HAVE to let miners/traders/builders/etc. into their areas, and to protect them just like any 'empire' should do. Maybe it'll finally turn 0.0 into true, independent player-run empires, not just PvP arenas. 4. It'll make POS-spamming a much more cumbersome tactic. It may also in general reduce the number of POS in the game making POS warfare less boring. And, all the people saying that 'in-6-months-we'll-be-back-at-the-same-point-with-jump-freighters' are forgetting a number of very important points. 1. It only holds 1/4 (?) the cargo of a freighter. 2. It costs (afaik) 2.7 times the amount of fuel a carrier uses to jump it. 3. It only has 2/3 of the range of a carrier. 4. The skill requirements are MUCH higher than a freighter/carrier. All this together should suffice to keep the number of them relatively low, and even if they reach the same numbers, the cost, range and cargo reduction would still make them have much less impact. In short, seen from a GAME perspective, this could have a very good outcome once the hysterical screaming of current big-landowner alliances fades away. No single alliance should be able to control so large a part of what is after all a limited resource in EVE, this being 0.0 space. If an alliance holds more than 1, 2 or MAYBE 3 (if its a very big alliance) regions, then it just shuts a lot of other players out of that part of the game. That's not a good thing.... Anything that helps prevent this (like the above mentioned changes) is GOOD!
Goca KAOS. Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.03 10:25:00 - [356] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Varrakk It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space. Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going ** off alot of people In which case, we're no worse off than today! For sure it's not going to solve itself if CCP doesn't do anything. And the amount of people **ed off IS already great, ie. the people who would like to live in 0.0, but can't find a corner to do so in because its all taken! Making those happy at the cost of a few logistics people? Good trade! ie: you suck at the game and want CCP to make it easier for you. go play solitare.. more your speed
Gecko O'Bac Aquilae Stellaris	Posted - 2007.11.03 10:40:00 - [357] Originally by: Sapater OK comming from a Loggie in rl and in eve(4 years) I see where they are going with this. Its about time they forced aliances to realy exploit 0.0 ATM its all about posses which are used to mine mins for t2 prod which are shiped back to emp for production they need to force the aliances to pull out of emp and focus their efforts in 0.0 Protecting their miners and their log chains. In game their are all the facilitys to build in 0.0 but they arnt getting used as much as they would like, instead the chains go all the way back to empire and this was never their intension from the begining. I see its going to hurt for a while and a lot of aliances will have to rethink just due to the Logisitics invloved. In Australia we have faced similer problems for a long time....... so all in all this statement is pretty correct. Dunno about your alliance, but I've been in 3 or 4 to the day and I've NEVER seen even ONE alliance industrial player ship his things to empire for production. It was ALL produced locally, either in poses or in outpost facilities. The opposite is true though: since empire products are usually cheaper (mostly due to competition), many empire items are brought from empire to 0.0 space to 1) keep 0.0 prices down 2) bring items not easily producted in 0.0 3) as a mean to earn money (trading).
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.03 10:42:00 - [358] Edited by: Shirei on 03/11/2007 10:46:35 Originally by: Sapater OK comming from a Loggie in rl and in eve(4 years) I see where they are going with this. Its about time they forced aliances to realy exploit 0.0 ATM its all about posses which are used to mine mins for t2 prod which are shiped back to emp for production they need to force the aliances to pull out of emp and focus their efforts in 0.0 Protecting their miners and their log chains. In game their are all the facilitys to build in 0.0 but they arnt getting used as much as they would like, instead the chains go all the way back to empire and this was never their intension from the begining. I see its going to hurt for a while and a lot of aliances will have to rethink just due to the Logisitics invloved. In Australia we have faced similer problems for a long time....... so all in all this statement is pretty correct. The thing is - this would turn the nature of EVE completely on its head. For 3-4 years, EVE (as long as you're in 0.0) has been largely a space PvP game, where you needed to do some logistics to support PvP. All of these changes move it further towards a space logistics game, where you need to do a bit of PvP to support logistics. I just wonder, which of the two people would rather play.
Dominator9987 Minmatar The Shambling Horde	Posted - 2007.11.03 11:51:00 - [359] Originally by: Sammiel Yes, because making 0.0 logistics far far more difficult was the appropriate way to fix an imbalanced trade route. Eve-mail me if you want some help farming teh isk. Got no problems helping Goons after bob reject me app ;)
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.03 12:34:00 - [360] Originally by: The Mittani dis post trolls itself so imma just chill Will you be chillin' in yaw crib with yaw homies? Busta cap in dat troll, bro. I got chaw back homie. Quote dis is yaw one of Mittani's wiggas and yaw down.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.03 13:05:00 - [361] Originally by: Goca Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Varrakk It was as I suspected, carrier SMB/freighter is to reduce the max size on alliance space. Is it going to work? Hell no! Just going ** off alot of people In which case, we're no worse off than today! For sure it's not going to solve itself if CCP doesn't do anything. And the amount of people ed off IS already great, ie. the people who would like to live in 0.0, but can't find a corner to do so in because its all taken! Making those happy at the cost of a few logistics people? Good trade! ie: you suck at the game and want CCP to make it easier for you. go play solitare.. more your speed I've got two characters atm. at war in 0.0, and haven't ratted/mined/explored/produced anything in 0.0! I get all the stuff I need from empire (incl. ISK), since this is easier. THIS in itself shows that the game is balanced wrongly since 0.0 is supposed to be player-run empires, with all the activities that contains. At the moment, there's a lot missing there, and there'll need to be some tough action from CCP and a lot of crying from people like you before it gets better. So, in fact, YOU are the one who wants to play EVE in easy mode, not me. I think you should go play solitaire... Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Cherybol Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:00:00 - [362] Edited by: Cherybol on 03/11/2007 17:02:18 CCP is loving its nerf bat atm.
Sapater Minmatar Phoenix Propulsion Labs Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.03 17:46:00 - [363] Update from Dev chatt on evetv i just herd they are going to do this increase but freighters will still be able to use Jb's but at a increased cost per jump.
blathering idiot	Posted - 2007.11.03 18:56:00 - [364] Just have a permaban on killing haulers of all types in 0.0 enforced by all.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:00:00 - [365] Fek this nerf! Someone take away the nerf bat before they nerf EVERYTHING. It is hard enough setting up and maintaining jump bridges... making freighter runs safer, faster, and require less people is the one reason for having jump bridges in the first place.
Col Callahan Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:46:00 - [366] I Die a lot in PVP. I love it, I would rather log on and die 50 times killing other players then make isk. now I do "HAVE" to make isk to pvp....pay for all those ships I lost, But, if I could just log on and PVP and not mine or mission run another day in eve, that day would come to soon. I don't think any one in eve really wants to mine or PVE but they have to. thats why macros are there making all the isk to sell, doing something we don't want to do. ITS BORING! I don't know. I'll just keep PVPing and leave the boring stuff to you guys and your freighters. 0.0 is for killing and "cap the flag" type of stuff IMO.
Digicomm The Digital Communists	Posted - 2007.11.03 20:13:00 - [367] LMAO, the pubbie tearz from that dude Grayton is roflles. It's nice to see how many of you flipp the ** out over whats been pushed on SiSi. Until its in game stfu and quit your crying, personally I hope they nerf the ** out of freighters. It would mean less space for RAgoons and more space for others.(newbs) Which in the end would mean more pvp, even the largest of alliances would probably have to give up some space in order to get thier pos needs accomplished. haha man, I hope this comes true.
Caffeine Junkie Caldari The Ministry Of Funny Walks	Posted - 2007.11.03 23:13:00 - [368] Test server stuff doesn't always make it to TQ, thats why its called a Test server. However if this implemented, it sucks, and from what I can see in this thread no-one disagrees. So CCP: Listen. Owner of the Kyonoke Pit
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.11.04 06:41:00 - [369] Originally by: Caffeine Junkie However if this implemented, it sucks, and from what I can see in this thread no-one disagrees. I disagreee. So do others.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.04 16:48:00 - [370] Interesting. I wonder how many freighters will be bridged into 0.0 in next week
Baulath	Posted - 2007.11.05 00:28:00 - [371] Before today I have hardly touched the forums. After hearing rumours about a range of nerfs I had to check it out. I am disgusted by the changes being made. It seems to me without doubt that CCP are forcing game mechanic changes to path the way for other ideas. They are forcing people to spend more time training, more skills by removing the uses of existing skills. It's honestly a shame. I will be rethinking my finical and time investments in the game. Baulath
deathatthedoor	Posted - 2007.11.05 10:47:00 - [372] Any updates from dev's on this? Consider this a free bump.
JohnStar Caldari Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.05 14:01:00 - [373] if they dont change the jumpfreighter the ship will die a slow death because no1 in his right mind will fly it,t2 should be better not worse.and as it is now most people with brains will fly rorqual.
SPQRMocton Minmatar Calmarr Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.05 15:26:00 - [374] I would like to point out to you that LONG BEFORE jump bridges things managed to get moved fron 0 space to empire and vice versa, Eve is a very complicated REAL TIME game......if you want a point and klik I suggest you go but an x box and some cartridge games ,now it seems that ccp has built a game that has been MORE popular over time as opposed to less unlike a lot of mmorpg ,that said I wish that those of you who are only seeing that YOU might be affected get a grip,the fact of the matter is running an empire SHOULD be complicated, fraught w danager and difficulty up the wazoo ,In the past any Ruler would tell you that it's a tough job to supply a giant military organization ,If you don't like the idea og running a large logistics deal then you don't really want to be an empire builder...pack up your toys and get out of the kitchen If You work to insure Loyalty points With a Corp be sure you can spend them someday
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.11.05 16:39:00 - [375] Edited by: Druadan on 05/11/2007 16:41:43 Originally by: SPQRMocton I would like to point out to you that LONG BEFORE jump bridges things managed to get moved fron 0 space to empire and vice versa, Eve is a very complicated REAL TIME game......if you want a point and klik I suggest you go but an x box and some cartridge games ,now it seems that ccp has built a game that has been MORE popular over time as opposed to less unlike a lot of mmorpg ,that said I wish that those of you who are only seeing that YOU might be affected get a grip,the fact of the matter is running an empire SHOULD be complicated, fraught w danager and difficulty up the wazoo ,In the past any Ruler would tell you that it's a tough job to supply a giant military organization ,If you don't like the idea og running a large logistics deal then you don't really want to be an empire builder...pack up your toys and get out of the kitchen 0.0 logistics IS complicated, and fraught with danger. You have any idea how little a carrier can actually haul around, considering it need its cargo bay and corp hangar for fuel? If you did, you would know how soul-destroying 0.0 logistics currently is. People do use freighters for 0.0 logistics, and the cost of movement is great, even through jump bridges. It is easy to cut off an alliance's logistics if they use freighter jump bridges. This change is just going to make it too easy to cripple an alliance; there will be work involved only in running an empire, and practically none in disrupting one. Screw you, Jacques.
Danae Melios	Posted - 2007.11.05 16:43:00 - [376] I can remember running 20+ trips a week between Empire and Fade, and Empire and wherever the hell CFS was in the south, both over 20 jumps into 0.0 and usually with gatecamps by CA and others blocking the chokepoints. I never lost a hauler during that time. Left alliance life after the CFS/FA debacle because the backstabbing of 0.0 left me cold, but there was nothing more satisfying than bringing a hauler full of ammo to a deep safespot and making my way all the way back up to Empire again, safe and sound. The point to this is, at one point this game was at least as much about logistics as it was about pvp, at least in deep space. And although there were specialists such as myself, everyone pitched in to escort, or to transport ships, since in many areas you couldn't build them or buy them. I know the game has changed-- probes easily find safespots now, and we have POS's and we have capital ships and we have interdictors. But I personally know that in the absence of recent advances there has been and always will be a way. It just means that the way many people play today will be radically changed. It just means that the pvpers in a space-holding alliance will have to do something other than shoot baddies, and ratters will have to help in logistics quite a bit, and nobody will make as much ISK as they do now. I may be unusual in my perspective, but to me ISK isn't the point of Eve, helping build something is. Helping destroy something is. Everything else (in my mind) is there for either part time slackers (like me) or to support those two goals of construction and destruction, and though there are specialists in each, in deep space you have to be willing to do both as the situation requires. This handful of peeps keeping an alliance's logistics going while few others have to get involved is crap, imo. Everyone fights, everyone mines, everyone hauls, to the best of their abilities and as the situation demands. Hell, changes like this could get me back into deep space again. I guess I'll have to see how this shakes out.
Mechanikus Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.06 16:11:00 - [377] If you guys want to make the jump freighter a tier 2 item with reasonable skill expectations, it would be okay. However jamming your tech 2 piece of junk down our throats and telling us to swallow is just bad business policy. Just because you guys designed a ship that sucks doesn't mean we should be forced to use it.
Seonae STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.11.06 16:24:00 - [378] Originally by: Danae Melios I can remember running 20+ trips a week between Empire and Fade, and Empire and wherever the hell CFS was in the south, both over 20 jumps into 0.0 and usually with gatecamps by CA and others blocking the chokepoints. I never lost a hauler during that time. Left alliance life after the CFS/FA debacle because the backstabbing of 0.0 left me cold, but there was nothing more satisfying than bringing a hauler full of ammo to a deep safespot and making my way all the way back up to Empire again, safe and sound. If all I ever had to do was run ammo, I'd use a viator with a cloak, no problem. Back in the 'Old Days' as you people like to put it, you didn't have to maintain a crapload of POSes. You wandered in, shot at stations, no problem. These days, like it or not, logistics is a full time job, one we get the pleasure of paying CCP for. Frankly, I think it's a load of crap, and yes, my accounts (and thus my dollars) will be walking away, and no, you ***hats can't have my stuff, I'd rather self-destruct it than give it to a bunch of idiots like you.
Jimbob McKracken Caldari The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:34:00 - [379] Still not "fixed" on sisi.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:38:00 - [380] Originally by: Seonae Originally by: Danae Melios I can remember running 20+ trips a week between Empire and Fade, and Empire and wherever the hell CFS was in the south, both over 20 jumps into 0.0 and usually with gatecamps by CA and others blocking the chokepoints. I never lost a hauler during that time. Left alliance life after the CFS/FA debacle because the backstabbing of 0.0 left me cold, but there was nothing more satisfying than bringing a hauler full of ammo to a deep safespot and making my way all the way back up to Empire again, safe and sound. If all I ever had to do was run ammo, I'd use a viator with a cloak, no problem. Back in the 'Old Days' as you people like to put it, you didn't have to maintain a crapload of POSes. You wandered in, shot at stations, no problem. These days, like it or not, logistics is a full time job, one we get the pleasure of paying CCP for. Frankly, I think it's a load of crap, and yes, my accounts (and thus my dollars) will be walking away, and no, you ***hats can't have my stuff, I'd rather self-destruct it than give it to a bunch of idiots like you. I remember the late ASCN freighter runs. 10-20 freighters, going what, every other week? sometimes with up to 80 escortships... A grueling 3-4 hours of travel down the pipe (with instas). Not something I'd wish on anyone. ------------------------------------------------
ScrewDeath	Posted - 2007.11.07 16:28:00 - [381] Bump - Dev's please reply to this - will this be fixed?
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.11.07 16:44:00 - [382] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Seonae Originally by: Danae Melios I can remember running 20+ trips a week between Empire and Fade, and Empire and wherever the hell CFS was in the south, both over 20 jumps into 0.0 and usually with gatecamps by CA and others blocking the chokepoints. I never lost a hauler during that time. Left alliance life after the CFS/FA debacle because the backstabbing of 0.0 left me cold, but there was nothing more satisfying than bringing a hauler full of ammo to a deep safespot and making my way all the way back up to Empire again, safe and sound. If all I ever had to do was run ammo, I'd use a viator with a cloak, no problem. Back in the 'Old Days' as you people like to put it, you didn't have to maintain a crapload of POSes. You wandered in, shot at stations, no problem. These days, like it or not, logistics is a full time job, one we get the pleasure of paying CCP for. Frankly, I think it's a load of crap, and yes, my accounts (and thus my dollars) will be walking away, and no, you ***hats can't have my stuff, I'd rather self-destruct it than give it to a bunch of idiots like you. I remember the late ASCN freighter runs. 10-20 freighters, going what, every other week? sometimes with up to 80 escortships... A grueling 3-4 hours of travel down the pipe (with instas). Not something I'd wish on anyone. Maybe that is the intended way, capital hauling made it too easy.
Garrett Smith ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.07 22:06:00 - [383] Why does CCP enjoy nerfing fun so much? Many many many people do not play EVE because it is such a boring game. It is a huge time-sink. Warping around, docking, etc. take forever. Not to mention the time-sink of SKILL TRAINING. Thousands do not play EVE when they learn it takes several months to become fun. I had several friends try to play the game, but they quit because it was just too boring. Now you decide to nerf freighters to keep them from using jump bridges and titans cannot jump them. Along with this you slap a HUGE carrier nerf in our faces. Your solution to these nerfs is a very resource inefficient "jump freighter" with too small of a cargo bay. Why do you want to remove even more fun from your boring game by making logistics a HUGE time sink. Along with this you don't even do a good job of it. One of the freighters can STILL use the jump bridges. REALITY CHECK CCP! STOP DRINKING AND NERFING! You are making us waste countless hours conducting boring logistics operations, keeping us from doing the fun stuff in the game, such as fighting. Is your goal to kill your player base CCP? Garrett Smith signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
Loedem Minmatar Knockaround Guys	Posted - 2007.11.08 01:43:00 - [384] Edited by: Loedem on 08/11/2007 01:45:27 Originally by: Malachon Draco I remember the late ASCN freighter runs. 10-20 freighters, going what, every other week? sometimes with up to 80 escort ships... A grueling 3-4 hours of travel down the pipe (with instas). Not something I'd wish on anyone. Heh, I must admit the first time we used carriers to restock supplies it did feel kinda dirty, like we were sliding past the restrictive mechanics of the game a bit, which is why the method was so secret in nature for those that figured it out early...after awhile, as more carrier pilots entered the game, it became a common practice for safe/quick logistics. The same happened with jump portals...though it was more of a no-brainer it could be done with freighters. I suppose with the frequency of outposts being put up, and the size of alliances and materials moving into 0.0, as well as an influx of 0.0 capable pilots and goods jumping on board, this is kind of a way to curb over-saturation in 0.0 space (reduction in resupplies and stockpiles, more dependance on empire runs for alliances that are less established, an overall tougher time consolidating outpost building materials, etc). This is also another way to get money to leave the game...which is a goal for most MMOs in general to stabalize in game economies. The downside is that the added costs of T2 freighters hurt the ability of new competitive forces to establish in 0.0, keeping those that have already built up wealth, logistics, and power in a stronger position to defend and hold their own. Atleast that's the way would appear at first glance, we'll have to wait and see how quickly T2 freighters factor into the endgame, and how wealthy some alliances are for affording them (just as the introduction of sov wars have been a learning experience). This decision is likely not intended to affect existing wars...which is why I think voicing a concern now is very important too...as a change of rules mid-war may present opportunities or advantages not previously present. What might be intended to be a change for other reasons...may in fact widen the gap for those who have already built infrastructure, weakening those less established. Simply put, I'm leaning towards thinking this change adds to the defensive logistics of more wealthy alliances with already highly trained freighter pilots. Even though it is harder to keep frontline supplies without an established POS chain to begin with...many T1 freighter pilots will now have to opt and train for more expensive T2 variants, thus slowing down logistic operations for resupplies..weakening logistics and widening the gap. I also really think many of the changes being made are good ones, with good intentions, and are for the long term health of EvE...It's just a tricky slope, making the isk sinks comparable to the flow of isk entering the game. It's a common problem many MMOs face the longer they stay in business...as not having suffucient money sinks for the high end players leads to difficulties for newer players to be competitive.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.09 07:59:00 - [385] I have heard a nasty rumor that CCP has done something to "fix" the ability to web Freighters to get them in to warp faster. Now they don't align and simply take 30-40 seconds to get in to warp. Can anyone confirm this? ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:37:00 - [386] Originally by: Stevobob This is unbelievable. CCP is like a car company phasing out the old model and forcing us to buy the new one...except they gain absolutely nothing but angered customers by doing it qft
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.11.09 08:56:00 - [387] Originally by: Jimbob McKracken Still not "fixed" on sisi. I wouldn't worry, they also have the skill req's listed as needing level 5 but multiple times it's been stated they're actually 4. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.11.09 11:38:00 - [388] At the Fanfest it was said that the new freighter size was not a mistake. That they could not use jump bridges however is apparently not how it is intended. From this you assume they're increasing the size of the fuel storage in bridges as well as the fuel cost. Going to be 'feasible' but very annoying and expensive to take a freighter long distances by bridges. :(
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.09 13:53:00 - [389] No more jumpbridge freighters ftw!! _______________
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:54:00 - [390] It will be interesting to see how this and other changes will affect 0.0 gameplay. I am sure the dedicated will find a way to survive, but perhaps some will find the logistics too demanding. As a poster pointed out, in previous times, it was nessisary to use larger numbers of freighters with escorts to bring what was needed to where it was needed. Perhaps CCP are of the opinion that living in 0.0 has become too easy in many respects? I dont live in 0.0 myself. I did live there a while back, but that was before freighters, cap ships and control towers. I am SO glad I am not the one about to take a nerfbat to the groin on this one Anyway, it seems that volume over time is again going to be the deciding factor. Perhaps changing the game for the better? Can anyone involved in the "great war" honestly say they arent slightly boored with the whole pos warfare thing?
Lock out Bald Industrial Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.09 16:36:00 - [391] Originally by: Verite Rendition I have heard a nasty rumor that CCP has done something to "fix" the ability to web Freighters to get them in to warp faster. Now they don't align and simply take 30-40 seconds to get in to warp. Can anyone confirm this? Still works for me on SiSi. I seem to have trouble running the client for any decent amount of time without getting a runtime error and disconnecting, though. Trying to keep two clients continually connected is impossible for me. And the warp distance nerf still remains.
HydroSan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:17:00 - [392] Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Perhaps CCP are of the opinion that living in 0.0 has become too easy in many respects? I dont live in 0.0 myself... Then why are you posting in this thread?
Ottman	Posted - 2007.11.11 08:47:00 - [393] no logistics means no pos, no pos means no t2 production, no earning isk for ppl who want to do industry and logistics, and eve needs the players who run mining, ice mining, refining, production, and the logistic work. every online game that has similar parts and the developer make dangerous mistakes that kill these parts of the game often kill the game itself. sorry for my bad english, i am from germany and dont use english often. please dont nerf eve to death, rebalancing combat is one thing, but one wrong "rebalancing" on the industrial side of eve can kill this game i enjoy for over 2 years now, and would make me very angry. better give well overthought ship level based bonuses, but increasing mass and reducing jump range to much or worse reducing cargo space are mistakes that would wipe out 0.0 inhabitants and the whole .0 industry, we need logistic ships that are not 3-6 billion isk or worse, there are not only big alliances out there, also player that have a few pos running but have already logistic needs that are maybe too much for carrier and rorqual. what should these ppl do ? they have bad luck ? eve should be playable even for those who dont want to be in big corps and alliances, if you force player the wrong way you ccp guys will learn it the hard way, loosing real life cash, you know as good as me that you will recover only slowly, loosing is always faster then recovering right ? MfG ottman
Ciphero Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.11 11:42:00 - [394] The Zulupark carrier nerf was misguided - I could understand and condone what CCP wanted to do, but thought they were going the wrong way about it. The Heavy 'Dictor's awesomeness in low sec made me wonder if they've thought about it at all (Recons fitting a cyno and a cloak, anyone?). This, though, really makes me wonder if CCP have lost it altogether. Absolutely off the charts, this one. Apparently 0.0 will involve a monthly convoy of Iteron Vs for 40 jumps.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:08:00 - [395] Edited by: Kerfira on 11/11/2007 20:10:53 Originally by: Ciphero Apparently 0.0 will involve a monthly convoy of Iteron Vs for 40 jumps. Or.... you can: GASP, CHOCK, HORROR ...get the minerals and (one type of) ice locally in 0.0..... Maybe hire people to mine it for you if you don't want to do that. Protect them. Maybe invite some builders and traders in too. You know, make 0.0 a place for other players than PvP'ers... (oh, the horror).... NB: There is a problem with ice. All 4 types of isotopes need to be available in all belts. Not so much for POS (tough **, put up the one used in your region), but for capitals (no sense punishing people for not being in their racial area). EDIT: Yes, I do live in 0.0 with two characters. Yes, I am of the firm opinion that 0.0 logistics are too easy. The default should NOT be to import everything from high-sec! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.11 21:56:00 - [396] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/11/2007 20:56:14 Originally by: Ciphero Apparently 0.0 will involve a monthly convoy of Iteron Vs for 40 jumps. Or.... you can: GASP, CHOCK, HORROR ...get the minerals and (one type of) ice locally in 0.0..... Maybe hire people to mine it for you if you don't want to do that. Protect them. Maybe invite some builders and traders in too. You know, make 0.0 a place for other players than PvP'ers... (oh, the horror).... To be specific. If a player in 0.0 wants a new ship, he should have 3 options, and 3 options only: 1. Fly or clonejump to highsec, get ship, fly ship to his home. 2. Mine the minerals for one and build it. 3. Buy another locally (0.0) produced ship. NB: There is a problem with ice. All 4 types of isotopes need to be available in all belts. Not so much for POS (tough **, put up the one used in your region), but for capitals (no sense punishing people for not being in their racial area). EDIT: Yes, I do live in 0.0 with two characters. Yes, I am of the firm opinion that 0.0 logistics are too easy. The default should NOT be to import everything from high-sec! Ever tried mining ice? Oh yes you say? Dark glitter is great source of liquid ozone, heavy water, and strontium clathrates? You don't say? Wow, so I can mine up... a weeks worth of those two fuels in about 2 hours solo in mackinaw! Wow! That solves lots of problems. Oh, wait... My tower is complaining of running low of Hydrogen isotopes. Lucky for us we have lots of smooth glacial masses to mine! To the mine mobile! I've mined for about two and a half hours to get about 100 hunks of smooth glacial mass. Now according to my hand dandy Eve Online ice ore chart, at 350 pieces of Hydrogen isotopes, I get 35,000 of the stuff. That's about 15 million worth of fuel. Oh but wait! Our station only has a base 35% efficiency? And our loving alliance has a 10% tax on top of that. So for me, that means I get 74% of normal yield with refining effeciency 5. Hmmm... so that means I actually have 25,900 of my normal yield. Well that's okay, since we have sov here means our fuel consumption is reduced down to 75%, right? So 8100 units of ice consumed...a day. So for almost 3 hours of work every 3 days, I can keep my tower going (nevermind the fact that I only have 4 hours of free time a day to do whatever, because, ya know, ice mining is loads and loads and loads and MORE loads of fun. I love to ice mine! Love it love it love it love it! I get a hard on every time I hear the word ice mining and- okay I'll stop here. :) ) Oh but wait! Enriched uranium running low! Robotics Running low! Mechanical parts running low!To the mine mo- wait... you can't mine that ! O.o OMG WHAT DO WE DO NOW?! I guess me... GASP, SHOCK, HORROR** get it from empire! Okay, let's do this right then. Hmm, buy it from empire haul it up! Uh oh, scout sees a gate camp at the choke point. Okay, logoff, try again in two hours. Oh, camp's still there, try again in an hour. Oh yay, they're finally gone! Get in, pipes clear... Oh wait, scout is seeing a lone hostile. Hmm... I don't see him anywhere. But let's wait him out. Hmm, he's been there for over 20 minutes. He must be afk or something. Okay haul jump through! Oh, he was a cloaked interdictor? And he was on my gate? Oooooh...well...this sucks. (and before you ask... Yes, I have been the cloaked dictor before). Welp, there goes that plan. Plan b: Alliance freighter op! Because nothing says safety like a 80 battleship blob protecting 2 or 3 freighters on a 4 or 5 hour trip. Problem solved! Wait, you don't want us to blob like that? But then what's to protect our freighters from a sneak attack? Faith in our enemy's good human nature? Well... I'm sure they'll understand that we need to keep our poses fueled and that CCP doesn't want us taxing the server... So I'm sure the 80 battleship blob isn't needed... :)
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.11 22:49:00 - [397] Edited by: Kerfira on 11/11/2007 22:53:14 Originally by: Tadehiro Stuff about wanting EVE on easy mode.... I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. They did it by living 'off the land' and only porting absolute necessities from empire. You and others like you though, have gotten used to things being so easy that you can't see any other option. Luckily it seems CCP can Originally by: Tadehiro ...My tower... Exactly THERE is your problem. It should not be 'your' tower, but a combined effort of your corp/alliance to keep a (smallish) number of towers online. Secondly, someone, somewhere are already mining that ice you use. You just have to convince them to come to your area and do it. You probably have to promise protection and pay a reasonable price for their effort, but nobody promised claiming territory in 0.0 would be easy. Stop whining. A hard game is better than an easy one! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Shirei Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.11 23:38:00 - [398] Originally by: Kerfira I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. That was also before CCP forced people to put up lots and lots of POS with the recent sov changes.
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.12 02:24:00 - [399] Edited by: Tadehiro on 12/11/2007 02:24:54 Originally by: Kerfira I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. They did it by living 'off the land' and only porting absolute necessities from empire. You fuel 30+ POSes in 4 systems then. Cause I certainly don't want the job.
Seonae STK Scientific	Posted - 2007.11.12 03:29:00 - [400] Edited by: Seonae on 12/11/2007 03:31:35 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 11/11/2007 22:53:14 Originally by: Tadehiro Stuff about wanting EVE on easy mode.... I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. They did it by living 'off the land' and only porting absolute necessities from empire. Stop whining. A hard game is better than an easy one! I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 to be a ridiculous pain in the ass either, or that I should pay 15 bucks a month to work a second job. Of course, you of the no corp/alliance ticker who likes to smack talk probably hasn't left empire in the last 2 years so you wouldn't know would you. You talk a lot of **, but I'm guessing you don't actually have to run logistics beyond 'how do I get to my next mission' do you. See, I remember the last bit of ****ation you put into print, about how 'back in the day' you ran ammo in a hauler and liked it. Well golly gee whiz there sparky, wish that's all I had to worry about too. Hauling ammo? no problem! hell, I'll just make my ammo down here and not even worry about it. You might have an idea of how to get a couple thousand torpedos 3 hops into lowsec, but it's pretty damn obvious you haven't a clue regarding real logistics. <edit> Also, post with your main if you expect anyone to take you seriously, posting with an alt that's been in a noob corp for 2.5 years? absolutely pathetic</edit>
Cha Jeng Zenith of Things	Posted - 2007.11.12 06:52:00 - [401] So, with this tweek do Freighters weigh more than titans? If so isn't that a bit moronic?
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.12 11:45:00 - [402] Originally by: Seonae Of course, you of the no corp/alliance ticker who likes to smack talk probably hasn't left empire in the last 2 years so you wouldn't know would you. As I said, I have two characters in 0.0 atm. YOUR argument is that just because I have an alt posting character (yes, I've used this character for posting the last year or so), the arguments are not valid. That's a very faulty point of view, but it is usually only put forward by people (like you) who don't like what is being said, but don't have any arguments against it. Originally by: Seonae You talk a lot of **, but I'm guessing you don't actually have to run logistics beyond 'how do I get to my next mission' do you. Insults (especailly when they're faulty) are not good arguments. Please use ARGUMENTS (you know, like serious people do) when discussing! Originally by:** Seonae See, I remember the last bit of ****ation you put into print, about how 'back in the day' you ran ammo in a hauler and liked it. Well golly gee whiz there sparky, wish that's all I had to worry about too. Hauling ammo? no problem! hell, I'll just make my ammo down here and not even worry about it. Wasn't me who made that post I do my 0.0 logistics by carrier (and I fully support the carrier hauler nerf too, even though that'll hit me too)! --- Currently in 0.0, everybody and their dog are importing EVERYTHING from high-sec! I do it myself, because its so much easier! However, life in 0.0 should have the full spread of EVE player types. There should be miners, producers, traders, researchers, PvP'ers etc. Today it's basically PvP'er only. That's not only wrong, it's bad for the game in the long term! Having 0.0 alliance being forced to limit their territory and to invite other player types than PvP'ers will be very beneficial for the game. Easy import hinders that, so the easy imports will have to go! Stop thinking only of your own little self, and look at whats good for the game! To sum it up, you don't provide a SINGLE argument, you post plenty of insults, all because you can't stand the thought of not playing EVE on 'Easy Mode', ie. you don't like challenges, but you can't find any good arguments for your point of view! Now THAT'S truly pathetic! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.12 11:48:00 - [403] Originally by: Shirei Originally by: Kerfira I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. That was also before CCP forced people to put up lots and lots of POS with the recent sov changes. You're not 'being forced to'..... You have the OPTION to! It's better for the game if corps/alliances don't claim much space. In reality, there's no real reason why even large alliances should claim more than a couple of station systems, and maybe a constellation. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.12 11:53:00 - [404] Originally by: Tadehiro Originally by: Kerfira I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. They did it by living 'off the land' and only porting absolute necessities from empire. You fuel 30+ POSes in 4 systems then. Cause I certainly don't want the job. One person should in no way, form, shape or fashion be able to keep 30 POS running! Again, "I want my EVE on Easy Mode!" (clearly you realised this since you deleted your post, but EVE-Search ftw!) Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:49:00 - [405] Edited by: Tadehiro on 13/11/2007 00:54:54 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Tadehiro Originally by: Kerfira I don't remember anyone promising 0.0 life to be a walk in the park. As a matter of fact, people were doing fine when there were no freighters, carriers and jump-bridges. They did it by living 'off the land' and only porting absolute necessities from empire. You fuel 30+ POSes in 4 systems then. Cause I certainly don't want the job. One person should in no way, form, shape or fashion be able to keep 30 POS running! Again, "I want my EVE on Easy Mode!" (clearly you realised this since you deleted your post, but EVE-Search ftw!) Who ever said one person? One corp of 15 members handles those. Our own corp handles three in two systems, with a total of 20 POSes in each system for our alliance (currently we hold 6 station systems), and it's still 3 or 4 hours of work a week to haul fuels from empire. Now I dunno about you but I certainly don't wanna have to be spread out more the fuel these damn things. Eve on easy mode? Grinding money is bad enough but I can live with it. Having to spend several hours a week just to make sure that some random alliance doesn't assault us and put up enough towers to claim sov (has happen before, we've lost station systems to BoB and we retook them by putting up MORE poses then they could possibly maintain in the area)? Fine. Having to spend several hours a a day (took us a week of collective ratting and mining to raise up a billion) to keep towers running because we can't jump fuels down anymore? Uuuuh... **** that, moving back to empire, just gonna wardec and gank at that point. Edit: Well... Then again I have two alts getting into rorquals (raise and GTCs FTW) in the next few months (Jump freighters? Eh... if they come down to less then 4 billion then maybe). So I suppose it won't be too bad. Plus we have an extensive enough Jump bridge network that it's just one jump to the nearest bridge and then JB to where ever you need to go.
DeathWalk	Posted - 2007.11.13 01:44:00 - [406] 14 pages and no dev response :( CCP, will this get fixed or can we forget jump bridging freighters?
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.13 08:41:00 - [407] Originally by: Tadehiro ...currently we hold 6 station systems.... And again, you demonstrate quite clearly WHY you're on easy mode! In no way should a small alliance like yours be able to hold and upkeep more than 1 or maybe even 2 station systems (and MAYBE a constellation)! Even a large alliance should only be able to hold like 3-4 stations or maybe even less! Having it so easy to maintain sov over a large chunk of 0.0 is bad for the game, since it leaves no space for new alliances who want to try 0.0 life. The only way they can currently get in is by renting, which is a bad solution in any case. The only way space can be freed up is if current holders are forced to abandon space, and that can only happen if logistics are made harder. This is why a logistics nerf is so required! Using your alliance as an example, I'd say logistics should be made thrice as hard as it is now (ie. you'd only be able to keep 2 stations with the same amount of effort). This would be good for the GAME(!!!!), though your alliance (and others) would be hit on its epeen.... Fuel by the way is only one part of the equation, as there's also minerals (hopefully the compression nerf is still going on for that). What CCP really should do was make all 4 fuel types available in all of 0.0, make a lot more ice fields (maybe one per two or three systems), and prevent freighters from using jump bridges (of either kind) while NOT implementing the jump freighter. At the same time nerf high-sec income (particularly missions)! Originally by: Tadehiro ...took us a week of collective ratting and mining to raise up a billion... Off-topic: Would take a week for one person (3-3.5 hours a day) doing L4's in high-sec.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.13 09:14:00 - [408] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Tadehiro ...currently we hold 6 station systems.... And again, you demonstrate quite clearly WHY you're on easy mode! In no way should a small alliance like yours be able to hold and upkeep more than 1 or maybe even 2 station systems (and MAYBE a constellation)! Even a large alliance should only be able to hold like 3-4 stations or maybe even less! Uhh, KOS is a 3000+ character alliance. The fact that they manage to live within the confines of a single region is amazing in and of itself. That's a ton of people when you consider how many people need to have good access to minerals to mine and rats to blow up. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.13 09:34:00 - [409] Edited by: Kerfira on 13/11/2007 10:47:16 Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Tadehiro ...currently we hold 6 station systems.... And again, you demonstrate quite clearly WHY you're on easy mode! In no way should a small alliance like yours be able to hold and upkeep more than 1 or maybe even 2 station systems (and MAYBE a constellation)! Even a large alliance should only be able to hold like 3-4 stations or maybe even less! Uhh, KOS is a 3000+ character alliance. The fact that they manage to live within the confines of a single region is amazing in and of itself. That's a ton of people when you consider how many people need to have good access to minerals to mine and rats to blow up. Consider that probably at least a third of those are non-training secondary characters (cyno's, refuelers, scouts, whatever), and you're down to maybe 2000 accounts (maybe less). That's less that 1/100th of the total number of accounts in EVE, and yet they claim a lot more than that proportion of EVE 0.0 space. From a game balance point of view that's not right (that EVE need more territory is another matter...). You should also consider that KOS is one of the alliances who actively hrecruit a lot of ISK farmer corps to get easy income. Thus a lot of those 2000 can't be really considered active 0.0 players.... KOS even keeps them tied to the alliance (constant adding of roles) after they get fed up with the terms, and the poor little ISK farmers don't dare complain to the GM's. Harboring ISK farmers makes an alliance just as despicable as they are..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:16:00 - [410] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 13/11/2007 10:47:16 Consider that probably at least a third of those are non-training secondary characters (cyno's, refuelers, scouts, whatever), and you're down to maybe 2000 accounts (maybe less). That's less that 1/100th of the total number of accounts in EVE, and yet they claim a lot more than that proportion of EVE 0.0 space. From a game balance point of view that's not right (that EVE need more territory is another matter...). Even 2000 people is a lot for 1 region. When you consider on average 1 system can only support 1 ratter, you're looking at a maximum of 75 or so people ratting at once in a big region. Similarly, 0.0 isn't Empire; you can't compare the density of the two. Empire has trade routes and more importantly mission agents; it can carry an infinite number of people because they can all be running a mission in their own deadspace pocket. This isn't the case for 0.0, where even when you add (the hard to find) exploration sites there's still a small carrying capacity. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:42:00 - [411] Originally by: Verite Rendition When you consider on average 1 system can only support 1 ratter, you're looking at a maximum of 75 or so people ratting at once in a big region. Similarly, 0.0 isn't Empire; you can't compare the density of the two. Empire has trade routes and more importantly mission agents; it can carry an infinite number of people because they can all be running a mission in their own deadspace pocket. This isn't the case for 0.0, where even when you add (the hard to find) exploration sites there's still a small carrying capacity. You are more or less exact about the cause of the problem, but you probably didn't even consider it.... The only activity you put forward for 0.0 is MAKING ISK! That ISK is then taken to high-sec for buying EVERYTHING, which is what is WRONG with the entire logistics system! A proper alliance setup in 0.0 should contain ALL player types (miners, builders, traders, researchers etc.), not just PvP'ers making money by ratting for their next ship to import from high-sec! If logistics were nerfed as they should be, 0.0 alliances would HAVE to invite other player types! TBH, I don't care much about exactly how much space an alliance can claim (it needs to be less than today though, as 0.0 is essentially taken), as long as the resources to do so are gained locally, not imported! You have a point though about agents and to a lesser degree trade routes. IMHO it would be a good idea if CCP put agents in at least some 0.0 stations, and put a number of trade goods and buyers there as well.... Also remember that KOS need that much space because of their 23/7 ISK farmers. However, I don't think that a good argument.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.11.13 15:44:00 - [412] Edited by: Druadan on 13/11/2007 15:45:06 Sorry Kerfira but you are the most clueless poster in this thread, and I think the 'insults', as you put it (and don't give me that non-constructive bull), were well founded. You haven't the first clue how 0.0 logistics works. Don't come in this thread and start telling people who is and who isn't fit to live in 0.0, based on your misguided interpretation that any alliance in 0.0 needs to have not only EVERY type of player you'll find in empire, but in the right proportions to prop themselves up without ever having to go to empire. If an alliance can manage that, fine, but it's such a rare thing that it most certainly should not be forced upon an alliance in such a ridiculous manner. ALL economic entities have imports and exports to do, and that holds true in EVE just like in the real world. It's an irrefutable fact of economy. To claim that an alliance of PVPers is not fit to have 0.0 space is like claiming that a country is not fit to own its land because it doesn't give a **** about mining out a diamond mine. Additionally, the concept of fuelling sovereignty using only stuff you can gather out in 0.0 is, quite frankly, ridiculous. As someone has already pointed out, most of the stuff we need for POSs are not gatherable in 0.0, so logistics runs are necessary. Your idea of large alliances not needing more than a constellation to live in is laughable. When you need the space to mine and rat in, to raise money, then you'll find the space fills up rather fast, unless you plan on having each person confined to one belt, hoping he gets something worthwhile spawning there, which isn't going to happen since chaining got nerfed aaaaaages ago. Shifting all this logistics to gate-bound haulers is just fallacy. That way, a small gatecamp can disrupt an entire alliance's logistics (I'm ignoring your version of 0.0, where alliances don't have logistics, here btw). Do you know how easy it is to take out a carrier at a POS? It takes three battleships to take down a carrier. As Pure have been demonstrating, a nanofleet is untouchable even when you bring webs to the field, and takes down a carrier so fast it isn't even funny. The nanofleet can do that at a POS, while the carrier is gathering its capacitor for the next jump. Risk vs. Reward was balanced already. Smarts vs. Reward apparently doesn't count, so logistics targets are being handed on a silver platter to the lazy idiots who can't figure out how to disrupt logistics lines beyond ''bubble the gate lolz we got haulers incoming''. -Dru Screw you, Jacques.
belzebub1 Gallente The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.16 08:47:00 - [413] We need a solid answer from the DEV team on this... Carriers nerfs, Ferighter nerfs, Useless T2 Freighters, next they will have a carebears can shoot allainces with no repercussions week. Rgds Belz

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