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Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:54:00 - [1] I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. I know it may some self-interested because I am just looking for chumps to deprive of their hard-earned assets, but think about it: Part of what makes MMOs what they are is that they are...well, a little bit real. The fear that pirates inspire in the hearts of noobs and carebears is real, and that is priceless. What other kind of game can inspire real emotion? The fear of a dread pirate, the sorrow of having lost your ship, or even on occasion that sweet sigh of relief after having gotten away (not likely). Do you know what I mean? CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Thank you for your time. Nihilion Saro
Flaming sambuka IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:56:00 - [2] I agree. I LIKE MY SIG
Staggerr Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:59:00 - [3] Signed
ghosttr ARK-CORP SATRAPY	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:00:00 - [4] I think that GG needs to be boosted a little more so the bears will at least feel protected. Either that or you can find yourself some 'pirates' that are just bears with bad sec Just leave the geddon in the belt and wait for them to 'gank' you My Blog
gfldex Kabelkopp	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:00:00 - [5] You must have went into the wrong systems at the wrong time. My success rate in sec status lowering is about 30%. Given that ppl tend to make a run that's quite a good rate. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
belzebub1 The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:00:00 - [6] Hmmm, this seems to be more down to the patch, prior to the patch we had loads of macor haulers in my area ( they are fun to kill ) Yesterday there were none, not a single one..... Rgds Belz
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:01:00 - [7] signed. I wouldn't be surprised if CCP "allready" have recognized this problem and are looking into it. Increased and enhanced ways to secure and shut down systems/belts would be pretty vital for a flourishing low-sec imo. Not to mention increased rewards.
ArchenTheGreat D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Nihilion Saro CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Problem is to populate low-sec you would have to boost reward over 0.0 reward. Because risk to be in low-sec is often higher than that in 0.0.
Arriana Echan Transcendent Creations Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:03:00 - [9] I am planning on having a foray into lower sec space next week. Just don't gank me :P
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:03:00 - [10] CCP knows there's a problem, but coming up with a solution that both encourages more people to enter low-sec and makes both pirates and carebears happy is a tough proposition. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2

Admai Sket Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:05:00 - [11] If Hulks had an extra mid-slot or two and some more CPU, so that a decent shield tank could be made, then I think more people would be brave enough to venture into non-0.0 low sec places for the chance at more ISKies.
eldiabloroho State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:06:00 - [12] Well if your gunna venture into lowsec just to find better rats/ore your better off just joining a 0.0 alliance where at least you have intel channels which provides much better chance of survival than lowsec and the rats/ore is 10x better. Theres really no point in ratting or mining in lowsec basicly.
Thenoran The People's Liberation Army	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:06:00 - [13] Low-sec is not worth mining except through High-sec exploration due to the current price of Nocxium, which dominates the low-sec ores (Jaspet, Hemorphite, Hedbergite) ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Ieu Duin Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. Oh, this is rich. I completely understand your request. What is befuddling is the complete misunderstanding that the reason there are no "roid-lubbers to gank" is because of you and your ilk. People don't play MMOs to be sheep. So CCP is going to put some snazzy new element in low-sec belts and all the sheep are going to come baying? Don't think so. Pirates are the reason no one is on low sec systems. There will never be a new "shiny" offered by CCP that will be worth me loosing my Hulk to get. Never. As long as the combat system in EvE favors pirates and gank squad deaths have no consequences to the gankers, low sec systems will be left to the pirates. The fact that you only found pirates in the low sec systems is absolutely hilarious. You guys have fun in your little circle. Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Jack Jombardo The Last Samurais	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? There is nobody becouse of all the Pirates. Can somethink be done? Sure: Remove Pirates. If you get ganged once or twice there is no problem with it. But to be ganged every houre and most times if you have absolut no changs against them (Mining Frig against HAC) it's just to much to be funny anymore. I'm awar that you will never understand the point of view from your targets but it is like it is: they DO NOT like to be ganged!
Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:12:00 - [16] Great, another "lowsec needs love" thread. The problem is one of realizing that there is no easy fix. Fear has nothing to do with the reason people avoid lowsec - it's all inconvenience and the almighty Bottom Line. They don't make isk for themselves by becoming targets for pirates, so they don't venture into lowsec. One way would be for CCP to FORCE mission runners and other Empire-dwellers into lowsec - a move guaranteed to cause many to quit and more to complain bitterly. No matter what method they used, those that prefer not to make targets of themselves would find some other way to make their isk, leaving lowsec just as barren, or would quit, costing CCP revenue. This option in many forms has been tossed around in these forums a lot, and the only people that support it are those who want more low-risk targets for themselves. Who, really, are the carebears? Another way to handle the problem would be to boost the incentives for entering lowsec. The problem there is, the best way to do it would be by opening a major isk faucet...and hoping the legit players manage to take as much advantage of it as the isk-farmers. This would also mess with the economy in unpredictable ways, which has the potential to cause a much bigger outcry than the pirates. Adding a faucet doesn't seem like a great option. In short, if you want lowsec boosted - offer a new suggestion that doesn't screw over a large portion of the player base and doesn't potentially break the economy. I'll bet CCP would listen. As far as I can tell, though, the only people who want the above changes are those that just want more low-risk targets to shoot at. Your protest isn't "some self-interest", it is ALL self-interest.
Ishakaril Skeleton Crew Ltd.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:12:00 - [17] Wouldn't it go a bit like this: 1) Boost reward for non-pirates in low sec 2) More targets for pirates in low sec 3) More pirates go to low sec 4) Risk goes up 5) Less targets again No matter what the "rewards" are in low sec, the number of pirates will be determined by the amount of targets. So the more reward, the more pirates and the risk/reward ratio remains the same.
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:14:00 - [18] Exactly. There's no point in going to low-sec since there's nothing valuable there. Nothing to fight over with other players. CCP doesn't seem to realize this and I doubt they are going to say anything in this thread, because they have nothing positive to say about it(the usual CCP way). I have no idea what the devs are doing when they want to PVP in their own game. I doubt they like to go around low-sec aimlessly for hours trying to find a good fight like the rest of us. 0.0 is the place where players can fight over something but the server can't handle large scale battles. In my opinion low-sec should be almost as valuable as 0.0 and there should be some sort of things that you can for example capture and hold for profit. There used to be complexes which drew people to fight against each other but those(the valuable ones) are gone. Long time ago I actually used to live in low-sec doing missions but then CCP decided that going around low-sec to complete missions wasn't dangerous enough and enabled(or made it a lot easier) pirates to probe down the mission runners, so I didn't see any reason to stay there and left to high-sec for better profits and I guess I wasn't the only one. So basicly CCP has been nerfing low-sec and I think it's time to boost it... a lot. - Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini
Andrue Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Ieu Duin People don't play MMOs to be sheep. So CCP is going to put some snazzy new element in low-sec belts and all the sheep are going to come baying? Sheep don't bay. They go 'baaaaaaaah'. Or sometimes 'blurrrrt'. It's a totally different spelling. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Bohoba dragons nest imPure.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:16:00 - [20] :) why go to low sec to get ganked, when you can get ganked in high sec lol not enough isk there or in 0.0 am making more in empire than I ever did in 0.0 and I had a cool pos network going moon mining for penuts to much work not enough isk. Windows VistaÖ Ultimate x64-based PC Gigabyte X38-DQ6 Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Extreme CPU Q6850 Memory 4,093.69 MB 2X Crossfire ASUS EAH3870/G/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 3870 512MB

Durzel State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:23:00 - [21] I love the way the OP says "It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates"" without apparently realising the irony of the words. Low-sec is the ultimate self-defeating prophecy - people who go there do so with the intention to find "chumps to deprive of their hard-earned assets". Is it little wonder therefore that people who have no interest in that side of the game avoid it entirely?
Frogzuk Dragonian Freelancers KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:23:00 - [22] There are many reasons as to why people dont venture into low sec, and one of the main ones is the introduction of capital ships camping the gates. New players learn very quickly that they have next to no chance of gaining access to low sec when there are several pirates that happen to camp in smartbombing cap ships. And before you scream 'adapt or die' or 'join an alliance' or 'make a gang to include hics' .. i would like to point to you the pirate as a major factor in the dimise of lowsec The dimise of low sec is in fact a pirate issue that needs to be considered before looking at whether low sec is attractive or not. If pirates where to step out of the disco caps and return to traditional pirating methods perhaps we would see more pilots in eve actually going into low sec looking for a duel or an adventure, taking that risk... froggy DGF website killboard
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Tarminic CCP knows there's a problem, but coming up with a solution that both encourages more people to enter low-sec and makes both pirates and carebears happy is a tough proposition. Agreed it is not a simple problem but this is an issue that has been discussed many times here and I think some good ideas have been put forward that balances carebears vs. pirates rather well. A big part of the issue is guards for carebears who may be (say) mining are disadvantaged from the get go. A guard cannot be proactive when guarding and has to wait for the bad guys to attack else they will lose sec status. A ding here and there is no biggie but if you make a habit of being a guard you'd find yourself negative in short order which many people care about. That or wait for the pirates to make the first move (allowing them the initiative which is huge). The pirate who is already -10 doesn't give a crap. Add to that pirates seem to invariably target the miners/haulers despite any guards around. And of course the miners/haulers pop real quick. So, all the pirates really need care about is a gank while the guards need to protect and gank (meaning they need more ships...some to guard via various boosts and some fit to gank attackers). Now add that PvP fit is > PvE fit so ratters are SOL. A lot of that I think is solvable if they bothered. Maybe a deployable shield bubble miners can sit under (but cannot warp out of while active). This allows time for the guards to engage the pirates and pirates pretty much have to deal with the guards first. If the guards die the miners are stuck or if the miners decide to drop the shield and scoot they become vulnerable. Fun decisions. :) Or have a deployable that "claims" a belt temporarily. Anyone warping to the belt gets a message that it is essentially an NBSI zone for ALL parties. While active if pirates warp in guards can engage immediately with NO sec hit (likewise pirates get no sec hit if they shoot first). The deployables of course would be temporary and could be limited to having only one active for the person who dropped it (and they must remain in the area or the deployable self destructs). In both cases above pirates are not nerfed and carebears have some reasonable means for protecting themselves (if they bother...if they don't and want to solo mine in low sec they get what's coming to them). Doubtless there are other ideas (maybe having a guard use its shields to protect a miner/hauler and say only industrial class ships [in this case meaning haulers/miners] can accept such protection so other PvP is not unbalanced]). Whatever...a little creativity can solve a lot of this. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
CmdoColin Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:24:00 - [24] Originally by: eldiabloroho Theres really no point in ratting or mining in lowsec basicly. Quoted for truth. Risks in low sec without an Alliance guarding your space and back just means you are an accident waiting to happen. I personally think low sec gate ganking is one of the huge reasons people don't go into low sec. We've all had it happen to us - we're in our n00b ship on autopilot dribbling at the gfx on our first day, and suddenly we're dead. We learn adapt and survive. For some this means they will never set a foot in anything but 0.5+ This is 86% of the eve population. Personally think gate ganking should be made harder in 0.1-0.4 space. Then give player groups a reason to go into that space armed to the teeth. It realistically has to be money that sucks them in. I personally would want to see a massive increase in the population of low sec. Allowing slightly easier travel to/through those systems I think might help. Reward though is the only true carrot that will get players there realistically. Audita et altera pars
Grainsalt Free-Corp Foundation Liberty Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:25:00 - [25] Edited by: Grainsalt on 14/03/2008 15:26:17 Y'see, once upon a time I used to love low sec.. Now I don't ... I don;t mine there after repeatedly having capital ships dropped on me by cowards looking for easy ganks on a miner. (seriously, a carrier to smack a miner ... wtf?)... All the low sec "pirates" as you call them got organised and formed alliances etc. so now instead of 4 or 5 people shooting you, you get a dozen dropped on your ass when you enter. Personally I go straight from high sec to null space or hang out every so often in the quietest of low sec and dont mine or mission run as it is pointless. Oh and dont even get me started on level 5 missions. --- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
The TX Earth Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Admai Sket If Hulks had an extra mid-slot or two and some more CPU, so that a decent shield tank could be made, then I think more people would be brave enough to venture into non-0.0 low sec places for the chance at more ISKies. Dammit, for some reason I posted with alt. ---------------------------- Ive noticed that 99.9% of people on these forums have a signature. If you are one of the 0.1% that does not have a sig, copy this into your sig, and display your defiance
Durzel State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:28:00 - [27] It also doesn't really help that you have to make a clear distinction between fitting your ship for PvE and fitting it for PvP. In most cases the two are mutually exclusive and fitting a module which is great for PvE ends up being counter-productive for PvP. Dealing with low-sec means fitting warp stabilisers, inertia stabs, etc which have no benefit to PvE.
Luna Nilaya Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:29:00 - [28] People in this thread seem to complain about the high amount of pirates in low-sec. My problem is the opposite. There isn't enough pirates to fight with or you can't find them quickly. They mostly travel with stabs or stay docked since there isn't a lot of preys around. - Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini
Brun Thorvald Red. Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:33:00 - [29] Because it's too easy to be a pirate, and therefore we have too many pirates. If being ganked was a once-a-week thing, then losec would be full. But it isnt - its a once an hour thing. Maybe more. Therefore, why mine in losec when you can make decent to good money mining Plag in 0.7 space ? Make it harder to be a pirate via no insurance, anti-pirate missions, fixing bounties so they work and making the way to get security rating back to be ganking pirates in their ships rather than ganking dumb rats in 0.0, and we'll see fewer pirates and therefore more people in losec. But piracy is EZ-mode. You summed it up - "So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank" ... no work, no effort, maybe a 40 million isk investment. So whine, gankbear, whine.
Xyn Rhais Tessaract	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:37:00 - [30] People have these naive ideea that if lowsec had a lot of rewards carebears would move in. No, if lowsec had lots of rewards, 0.0 alliances would start claiming chunks of it. You can't make it worthwile for carebears in lowsec simply by upping the rewards a lot.

Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:39:00 - [31] Originally by: Brun Thorvald Because it's too easy to be a pirate, and therefore we have too many pirates. If being ganked was a once-a-week thing, then losec would be full. But it isnt - its a once an hour thing. Maybe more. Therefore, why mine in losec when you can make decent to good money mining Plag in 0.7 space ? Make it harder to be a pirate via no insurance, anti-pirate missions, fixing bounties so they work and making the way to get security rating back to be ganking pirates in their ships rather than ganking dumb rats in 0.0, and we'll see fewer pirates and therefore more people in losec. But piracy is EZ-mode. You summed it up - "So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank" ... no work, no effort, maybe a 40 million isk investment. So whine, gankbear, whine. This! btw, I'd love to head back to low sec sometime, just because it's a bit quieter on the whole, but the cognitive burden I'll encounter as I'll have to engage with the game from undocking moment to docking back up again is just too much. Grinding roids is only fun if you can multi-task with other stuff at the same time. It's no different to 0.0 out there you know (might as well make it 0.0 to be honest).
DrefsabZN SteelWolves Final Unity	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:42:00 - [32] As an old player returning with a new account I tried to go out into low sec and explore and yup guess what ran in to gate camps of several cap ships. I didnt even get time for my screen to load up in the new system before I was dead thanks to the smartbombs. The thing is I wasnt in a weak ship but unless I had something stupidly powerful I just wasnt getting through. Then when I got through after they had logged off, I find that the asteroids mostly gone (not that I mine but I thought I would have a look), the rats are weak and that mission running isnt good because I got ganked while running one. True I can join a big corp I can get some friends and try to fight it out (not with cap ships though because its to early for me to be doing that). Or can sit off in secure space, make LOTS of money from mission running while I train up the skills to get into a big corp that can protect its space. Its boring as hell but as least Im not going into something I have no chance of winning. Most players dont want easy mode in low sec they just want a chance.
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:42:00 - [33] Problem is that it's not cost effective to have a mining op in lowsec with escorts when you can put those escorts into barges and make more isk in hisec. If you gate camp you'll still catch a lot of stuff, but belt piracy is dead... sure you'll catch the occasional noob who comes out to rat some belts, but it's a rare sight.
Jack Jombardo The Last Samurais	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:43:00 - [34] Originally by: Xyn Rhais People have these naive ideea that if lowsec had a lot of rewards carebears would move in. No, if lowsec had lots of rewards, 0.0 alliances would start claiming chunks of it. You can't make it worthwile for carebears in lowsec simply by upping the rewards a lot. Yea, becouse most pirates do not like close to fair fights. They want easy kills where the changs to lose is close to not existing. typical Pirate: 1) jump in his cloaked ship to check what the other flys 2a) is it a easy kill? -> jump in his superior killing machine and gang harr rofl 2b) is it a posible close fight or lose? -> stay cloaked or dock again waiting for the next posible sheep Most non-priates have more balls then the selve called pirates there as this non-pirates went into the dangures space with underperforming ships while this wanabe Rambos never fight without superior equip on there side ;).
Kharsis Khasm Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Or have a deployable that "claims" a belt temporarily. Anyone warping to the belt gets a message that it is essentially an NBSI zone for ALL parties. While active if pirates warp in guards can engage immediately with NO sec hit (likewise pirates get no sec hit if they shoot first). The deployables of course would be temporary and could be limited to having only one active for the person who dropped it (and they must remain in the area or the deployable self destructs). This sounds like a good, creative idea.
Cygnus Scott Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:53:00 - [36] Edited by: Cygnus Scott on 14/03/2008 15:53:04 Originally by: Luna Nilaya I doubt they like to go around low-sec aimlessly for hours trying to find a good fight like the rest of us. Here is part of the problem, most pirates aren't looking for a good fight they are looking for a kill mail no matter how crappy a kill it is. If pirates were more judicious in their attacks there would be more targets, however it doesn't matter if its a faction fit ship or a L1 frigate with civilian mods both are killed (and likely podded) without regard to how profitable the kill is. If you look at predators in the wild they don't go in an slaughter the entire herd they take a few and let the rest move on, that way the food supply isn't wiped out. Pirates slaughter everything and nobody comes to low sec reducing the number of targets. Most pirates are even dumb enough to rejoice over the whole can & wreck thing showing up on the directional scanner now, everything that increases risk of low sec, even if its small, without a balancing increase to reward is bad for the population numbers of low sec. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Eventy One Magellan Exploration and Survey	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:57:00 - [37] Who says low-sec is broken (other than a few hundred threads)? It could be that low-sec is just not-working exactly the way CCP wants it to not-work.
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:58:00 - [38] Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 14/03/2008 16:01:19 Originally by: Ieu Duin I completely understand your request. What is befuddling is the complete misunderstanding that the reason there are no "roid-lubbers to gank" is because of you and your ilk. Like it or not, my "ilk" and I are an important part of the game. Think about it, we put the risk in the "risk vs. reward" balance that justifies greater rewards in low-sec (which we agree are missing currently). Further, without pirates there would be no "anti-pirates". I remember in the old days I got my start in PvP as part of an "Anti-Pirate" corporation, whose mission it was to keep a single low-sec pocket clean and open for development by miners and industrialists. There is a whole world of gaming in low-sec that is simply gone for the most part. To me, it is the precarious balance of dangers and opportunities that inspire people to come together and organize themselves for a collective purpose, be it piracy, anti-piracy (collective security), or economic development (carebears). Already in this thread there has been some thoughtful considerations of the problems facing low-sec and some potential solutions. I don't know which ones are best: I leave that to CCP. But my point is that something must be done, because in all honesty an important part of the game is just broken.
Cory Sopapilla Kiroshi Group	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:58:00 - [39] The solution is simple. 1) Decide, do you want to be a PVP pirate corp or a carebear pirate corp that only attacks defenseless ships. If PVP, go on to step 2. If not, stop here as you have answered your own question - nobody wants to risk a mining ship and a full set of +5 implants for slightly more ISK/hr mining to someone who wants to pvp but targets only defenseless ships. 2) Have your "pirate" corp all move to a low sec location of your choice. 3) Build a reputation of "owning" this system (it's empty anyway, right?) and a good reputation for protecting miners. Once this is in place the carebear pirates will come to you in your target rich environment. If the protection is good, the miners will come to you and the circle will be complete. If it is good enough, miners like me would even pay for the protection with a % of the mining. You can tell by scanning their ship how much ore they can pull in per hr and charge accordingly. If you have enough leadership skills, all of the miners could be in your fleet and share bonuses and get the carebear pvp'ers flashing red for you. However, if you're going to charge, you would have to offer some kind of insurance for failure to protect such as replacement of implants and ship mods.
Cygnus Scott Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Brun Thorvald Because it's too easy to be a pirate, and therefore we have too many pirates. If being ganked was a once-a-week thing, then losec would be full. But it isnt - its a once an hour thing. Maybe more. Therefore, why mine in losec when you can make decent to good money mining Plag in 0.7 space ? Make it harder to be a pirate via no insurance, anti-pirate missions, fixing bounties so they work and making the way to get security rating back to be ganking pirates in their ships rather than ganking dumb rats in 0.0, and we'll see fewer pirates and therefore more people in losec. But piracy is EZ-mode. You summed it up - "So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank" ... no work, no effort, maybe a 40 million isk investment. So whine, gankbear, whine. Most Pirates try to convince everyone Piracy is so difficult...its really not. See here what I mean here and in the thread linked in it. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Cory Sopapilla The solution is simple. 1) Decide, do you want to be a PVP pirate corp or a carebear pirate corp that only attacks defenseless ships. If PVP, go on to step 2. If not, stop here as you have answered your own question - nobody wants to risk a mining ship and a full set of +5 implants for slightly more ISK/hr mining to someone who wants to pvp but targets only defenseless ships. 2) Have your "pirate" corp all move to a low sec location of your choice. 3) Build a reputation of "owning" this system (it's empty anyway, right?) and a good reputation for protecting miners. Once this is in place the carebear pirates will come to you in your target rich environment. If the protection is good, the miners will come to you and the circle will be complete. If it is good enough, miners like me would even pay for the protection with a % of the mining. You can tell by scanning their ship how much ore they can pull in per hr and charge accordingly. If you have enough leadership skills, all of the miners could be in your fleet and share bonuses and get the carebear pvp'ers flashing red for you. However, if you're going to charge, you would have to offer some kind of insurance for failure to protect such as replacement of implants and ship mods. So your solution here (I can see it in embryonic form), would be for a corp to be able to get a contract to run station services at any given station and thereby set tax % on minerals refined. Actually, I quite like it. How do we decide who gets the station services contract though?
DrefsabZN SteelWolves Final Unity	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:03:00 - [42] Thats the thing a fair fight is a VERY VERY VERY rare thing in eve its normally pure gank, increasing the rewards will bring more people true but it brings more gankers. Maybe they can make jump gates dump people out at larger distance with greater randomization so they people have more chance of running getting through camps. Maybe sensor damps on gate, but the dampening and randomization reduces the low and low the system sec status gets. If people had a decent chance of getting through these systems and it gets harder and harder the closer you get to 0.0 this might help the matter.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:04:00 - [43] Originally by: Cory Sopapilla If it is good enough, miners like me would even pay for the protection with a % of the mining. You can tell by scanning their ship how much ore they can pull in per hr and charge accordingly. If you have enough leadership skills, all of the miners could be in your fleet and share bonuses and get the carebear pvp'ers flashing red for you. However, if you're going to charge, you would have to offer some kind of insurance for failure to protect such as replacement of implants and ship mods. This is part of the problem. 1) Effective guarding is difficult and short of a very serious and sustained effort miners will still get popped. 2) Perhaps more importantly, by the time you are done paying guards enough to make it worth their time, you will find it FAR more profitable to mine just about anything in hi sec. Not to mention a lot safer and simpler. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Durzel I love the way the OP says "It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates"" without apparently realising the irony of the words. Low-sec is the ultimate self-defeating prophecy - people who go there do so with the intention to find "chumps to deprive of their hard-earned assets". Is it little wonder therefore that people who have no interest in that side of the game avoid it entirely? Yeah definitely this. Pirates like to thump chest and say how much they love PVP combat and that you should fight or go play WoW, but more often than not all they want is easy targets to provide them with entertainment by blowing up and handing over their loot. On another note neither minerals, ratting, mission running is profitable enough in low sec to warrant the possible ship loses that can/will occur. ***
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:07:00 - [45] Edited by: Ulstan on 14/03/2008 16:08:02 Low sec mining is usless due to the terrible price of iso and nocx. Low sec ratting is useless since rats there are barely better than hi sec. Low sec missioning is would be extremely lucrative if you could pull it off. However, given that the pirates know where all the agents are and that scanning out a mission runner in a mission is quite easy, very few people manage to run missions without getting jumped by pirates. If you warp away as soon as you see probes in the system, your earning rate is terrible and you'd be better off mining in hi sec. If you dont' warp away they'll get your ship and then you'd be better off sitting in a station doing nothing :p Changing the latter is extremely difficult because it would involve nerfs to piracy, but upping the rewards of belt rats, explorations, and mining is fairly easy and wouldn't require any nerfs to piracy. It should be done pronto! Then they should rebalance the vast swathes of crappy 0.0 space where you get 650k BS.
Zarquon Beeblebrox Muchacho's	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:10:00 - [46] It easy. Move lvl 1 agents to 1.0 Move lvl 2 agents to 0.5 Move lvl 3 agents to < 0.4 Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 Lady Beeblebrox Tundragon & Teddybears Memorial Forum
Nigel Tell Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:19:00 - [47] What possible incentive could you give me to become easy prey? What possible incentive could you give me to become your method of enjoying Eve? Quote: The fear that pirates inspire in the hearts of noobs and carebears is real, and that is priceless. Priceless to whom?
Drethon Selinir	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:26:00 - [48] My briefly thought out 0.02ISK Make haulers and mining barges hard to lock. If the fastest locking ships in eve take 30-60 seconds (hmm, maybe 10 seconds since not everyone runs around in fast locking inties) to lock a hauler or mining barge, then the miners and haulers have time to warp out if someone comes after them. If they don't warp out in time, they aren't paying attention. This also helps with haulers running through gate camps. Running on autopilot will still get you ganked but anyone paying attention can warp through most gate camps by being careful. With this system, industrialists can operate in low sec with safety as long as they are paying attention and pirates get more targets to try and gank. (though paying attention to the scanner is probably better anyway...) Just a thought. ____ "I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe."
AleRiperKilt The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:33:00 - [49] sigh yet another pirate whining for easy targets thread Dude, people don't go lowsec because they get ganked. If you want them in lowsec keep all other pirates away, specially these yarr KM-whoring noobs. Predators from one herd don't allow other herds anywhere close to their feeding grounds. --- 1. Fit wrong stuff to ship 2. Post screenshot in Eve Forums 3. ???? 4. PROFIT!
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:34:00 - [50] There is no anti-piracy in Eve. There is no distinction between a pirate and an anti-pirate. Consequences are the same for both, except piracy brings in more fun and more rewards to the player looking for PVP. Low sec should become a true free-for-all where anyone with a security status of less than 0.0 can be shot on site without any repercussions to the aggressor. As it is right now it is very difficult to anti-pirate without becoming a pirate yourself, unless you're shooting at -5.0s and less or doing your shooting in 0.0. Also, to make gatecamps more interesting to the campers in low sec, CCP should consider adding e-war guns alongside the current gate guns. How fun would it be if campers were randomly warp-scrambled, ecm'd, webbed, and/or TD'd when committing crimes near the gates . One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr

Kale Kold V i r u s	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:42:00 - [51] Originally by: Frogzuk There are many reasons as to why people dont venture into low sec, and one of the main ones is the introduction of capital ships camping the gates. New players learn very quickly that they have next to no chance of gaining access to low sec when there are several pirates that happen to camp in smartbombing cap ships. And before you scream 'adapt or die' or 'join an alliance' or 'make a gang to include hics' .. i would like to point to you the pirate as a major factor in the dimise of lowsec The dimise of low sec is in fact a pirate issue that needs to be considered before looking at whether low sec is attractive or not. If pirates where to step out of the disco caps and return to traditional pirating methods perhaps we would see more pilots in eve actually going into low sec looking for a duel or an adventure, taking that risk... froggy Actually thats completely wrong! Pirates used to have it easy but not anymore. Not many pirates own, let alone use cap ships for pirating. Whole pirate corps are going out of business due to lack of targets and being ganked by huge PvP alliances with cap ships. Ideas: 1). Cap ships should be banned from everywhere but 0.0 (this will make pirates happy) 2). Huge (non-self claimable) bounties should be put on pirates (-5.0 outlaw chars). (this will make anti-pies happy) 3). Complexes should be brought back and top ores in the belts. (This will make the carebears happy.)
Durzel State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Xyn Rhais People have these naive ideea that if lowsec had a lot of rewards carebears would move in. No, if lowsec had lots of rewards, 0.0 alliances would start claiming chunks of it. You can't make it worthwile for carebears in lowsec simply by upping the rewards a lot. But isn't that exactly what the pirates want? A fight? Or are they just looking for defenceless prey? I have a good idea which one low-sec pirates prefer...
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 16:50:00 - [53] Originally by: Kale Kold Ideas: 1). Cap ships should be banned from everywhere but 0.0 (this will make pirates happy) 2). Huge (non-self claimable) bounties should be put on pirates (-5.0 outlaw chars). (this will make anti-pies happy) 3). Complexes should be brought back and top ores in the belts. (This will make the carebears happy.) 1) Taking down POS without cap ships is a real pain (enough of a pain with cap ships). 2) Not possible. Just have a mate pod you and collect the bounty and give it to you (or use a second account to pod yourself). 3) It is waaaay too easy for pirates to camp plexes. Top ores would just tick off 0.0 folk. However, to enable anti-pies more I think there should be a Kill Rights market. Say I am a noob carebear and get ganked...I cannot really go after the pies myself. Instead I should be able to sell/trade/give my kill right to someone else...add in the bounty part there. Then that guy who is more capable/willing can go hunt the pirate with no worries about sec status and so on. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Kolwrath Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:01:00 - [54] Edited by: Kolwrath on 14/03/2008 17:06:55 Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox It easy. Move lvl 1 agents to 1.0 Move lvl 2 agents to 0.5 Move lvl 3 agents to < 0.4 Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 Vast amounts of empire carebears cry out in horror. Vast amounts of empire carebears quit eve. Vast amounts of 0.0 alts of empire carebears are also gone. Vast amounts of pirate alts of empire carebears are also gone. Player base shrinks. Markets get shaken to the foundations as large amounts of customers simply disappear. Player base shrinks some more. EVE becomes less of a media attention grabber due to low popularity. Player base shrinks even more. CCP closes EVE due to low subscriptions. So yeah ... not a good idea. Originally by: Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:03:00 - [55] Originally by: Ishakaril Wouldn't it go a bit like this: 1) Boost reward for non-pirates in low sec 2) More targets for pirates in low sec 3) More pirates go to low sec 4) Risk goes up 5) Less targets again No matter what the "rewards" are in low sec, the number of pirates will be determined by the amount of targets. So the more reward, the more pirates and the risk/reward ratio remains the same. QFMFT. I can't believe some people have such a hard time grasping the real issue with low-sec. Tho, seeing as most people who do, are looking for easy targets, I'd wager why they do... Low-sec is fine. A PvE fit has no chance against someone who is out looking for some PvP pirating. So it's almost zero risk for the pirate, factor in risk vs. reward and I'd say low-sec is pretty much how it should be in concern to pirate reward. Forcing more easy targets in juicy PvE set-ups into low-sec would skew the risk vs. reward vastly in favor of the pirates. Now if it's not risk vs. reward you are looking for, but just some good old pew pew? 0.0 is just on the other side ( and they even fight back some of the time ).
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Burnharder Actually, I quite like it. How do we decide who gets the station services contract though? The mechanic is already in place. Conquerable stations. Wage war against your competitors and claim it... good fun eh?
Primnproper Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:20:00 - [57] I've always thought the easiest solution to the 'lowsec problem' is to make it so that there are resources in each type of space which are only found in that type of space, say the materials for T3 only being in lowsec for instance. That way the only way for there to be a supply would be if people mined there and therefore if it was really danagerous the prices would be higher and so it would always be worth the risk.
Aria Selenis AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:25:00 - [58] Why do so many make it seem like the bounty system is impossible to fix? Solution seems simple enough... Remove players needing to add bounties. Make the bounty automatic based on security status, a percentage of the value of the pirates current clone. Possible 20% at -1, finishing at 100% at -5, with a linear scale in between. This way, every pirate will have a bounty, encouraging more anti-pirates. Also, since the value is calculated off the value of your current clone, it's impossible to just have an alt or friend pod you to collect the bounty. Sure. You -could- still pod yourself with an alt. But you could never gain more than the value of your clone, so it would defeat the point.. you gain a million isk and pay a million isk for the new clone. The bounty is still on you, as your security status has not risen. (As previously said, bounty would be from CONCORD and not player bounties.) If you had any implants, it would be even more counter-productive. Not to mention, it gives a bonus for those who go after the more skilled pirates. You kill a low SP pirate, you get a small bounty (similar to killing an easy npc). Kill a pirate with 70M sp, and you're looking at 14 million ISK in bounty alone.. risk vs reward.. go for the easy targets, or the profitable targets? I don't really see a downside to this. The pirates can't cheat the system, the anti-pirates / bounty hunters get a system that actually works, and rewards them for going after more difficult prey.
AleRiperKilt The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:26:00 - [59] Although a noob and self-proclaimed carebear I think lowsec is the way it should be: a barren, harsh piece of space nobody should dare to go. - Right now there are too many pirates, so carebears don't go, most of these pirates will bore and find something else to do or quit the game. - Smart pirates will realize easy pray are scarce, so they will hunt down other pirates and protect their territory so it appears "safer" to carebears (survival of the fittest) - Lowsec will self-balance to the point carebear to pirate ratio will be profitable. So no, stop whining. You won't get more easy pray. You will have to work for it. BTW: can I have your stuff? --- 1. Fit wrong stuff to ship 2. Post screenshot in Eve Forums 3. ???? 4. PROFIT!
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:31:00 - [60] Originally by: Xyn Rhais People have these naive ideea that if lowsec had a lot of rewards carebears would move in. No, if lowsec had lots of rewards, 0.0 alliances would start claiming chunks of it. You can't make it worthwile for carebears in lowsec simply by upping the rewards a lot. This. All the way. Read it and weep... -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)

Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox It easy. Move lvl 1 agents to 1.0 Move lvl 2 agents to 0.5 Move lvl 3 agents to < 0.4 Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 Same crap gets trotted out every time... -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)
Cherika Legion of Black Mesa Capital Storm	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:43:00 - [62] Problem with low-sec for me isn't the absence of people who doesn't want to pvp. It's the absence of people who like to pvp. CCP needs to make low-sec more suitable for people looking for fights. I don't know what the situation is at the belts but it often takes hours to find pirates at gates.
Julius Romanus Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Ieu Duin Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. Oh, this is rich. I completely understand your request. What is befuddling is the complete misunderstanding that the reason there are no "roid-lubbers to gank" is because of you and your ilk. People don't play MMOs to be sheep. So CCP is going to put some snazzy new element in low-sec belts and all the sheep are going to come baying? Don't think so. Pirates are the reason no one is on low sec systems. There will never be a new "shiny" offered by CCP that will be worth me loosing my Hulk to get. Never. As long as the combat system in EvE favors pirates and gank squad deaths have no consequences to the gankers, low sec systems will be left to the pirates. The fact that you only found pirates in the low sec systems is absolutely hilarious. You guys have fun in your little circle. Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. Really? Because people rat and mine in 0.0 quite a bit, and not always in space thats friendly. I used to rat in syndicate and dodge the local 'wiseguys' patrols. Absolutely no different than a pirate crew passing through system. Difference was, it was worth the risk to ship AND pod. Where as lowsec isn't worth the risk of your ship past the days of ratting in a top tier frigate or kessie.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:44:00 - [64] Originally by: Aria Selenis I don't really see a downside to this. The pirates can't cheat the system, the anti-pirates / bounty hunters get a system that actually works, and rewards them for going after more difficult prey. The downside is the reward is not enough to justify the effort and risk (pirate might blow you up). Only way to fix that would be to raise the prices of clones dramatically and that would cause people to howl from one end of EVE to the other. I still the a Kill Rights trading mechanism would work great and revitalize (actually create the really never existant) bounty hunter trade as advertised on the box. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:45:00 - [65] Quote: The fear that pirates feel in their hearts that they will search to and fro and not find any juicy prey is real, and that fear is priceless. Fixed it for ya!
Merdaneth PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:46:00 - [66] Real world piracy is a business. EVE piracy is a leisure activity. Real world piracy is a high-risk business, one in which a single failure can easily put you permanently out of business. In EVE piracy is low-risk. You can fail completely, but stay a pirate. People in EVE are willing to pay money to be pirates (to get income from other sources than piracy). That is like lions going out hunting the zebra's for pleasure, knowing that if they fail to catch anything, they won't starve, but can always survive on grass themselves. As long as piracy remains a leisure activity for the masses with players willing to lose isk to pirate, no amount of wealth in low-sec can ever bring enough targets. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Crowes League of the Tiger and Tentacle Friend or Enemy	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:50:00 - [67] Problem: -High sec mission runners don't want to go to low-sec and be almmost guaranteed that they will loose their expensive mission ship. - Why can't mission runners defend themselves? They are flying the most expensive and advanced combat ships? One (difficult to implement) idea to level the playing field, change PvE and missions to closer mimic PvP - instead of 30 unintelligent rats, have 3-4 really smart, really difficult rats fitted and performing in a way close to players ships. This way 'mission ships' will be equiped more 'PvP' ish and might stand a chance of surviving an engagement (though 10 pirates vs 1 missionrunner would probably still be pretty obvious outcome)...
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 17:53:00 - [68] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 14/03/2008 17:54:03 Originally by: Julius Romanus Really? Because people rat and mine in 0.0 quite a bit, and not always in space thats friendly. I used to rat in syndicate and dodge the local 'wiseguys' patrols. Absolutely no different than a pirate crew passing through system. Difference was, it was worth the risk to ship AND pod. Where as lowsec isn't worth the risk of your ship past the days of ratting in a top tier frigate or kessie. It's waaaay easier to ninja mine/rat in 0.0 than low sec. The hard part is getting past the choke points but once past it is vastly easier. Most of 0.0 is empty with no one for many, many jumps around. Keeping an eye on local to spot the one dude who may pop by in 12 hours is a breeze. Cloak up and wait him out. Simple. However, trucking out all your loot can be a problem. Most of low sec is far different. People are passing through even the most low traveled systems with some regularity. I made a concerted effort to find a backwater, low traveled low sec system a few months ago. I went deep into Amarr and Minmatar and Gallente (skipped Caldari since it is way overpopulated) low sec space. I made a point of staying off highways, looked for dead end systems and systems with no stations in them. Longest I waited for someone to stop by and come looking for me (I could see probes out and/or them passing through a belt I was cloaked in) was 20 minutes. This after about 20 hours actual time spent zooming around looking (I was probing moons too so I would hang in each system a good while to get a sense of it). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Ah So State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:01:00 - [69] Its simple really. Just like there's no cod left in the north sea, and the Japanese whaling fleet has to go all the way to the arctic to harpoon sushi-meat. Over-farming leads to extinction - fact. There's too many pirates and not enough people who enjoy being your fodder in their game-time. Perhaps CCP should introduce npc miners in lowsec belts?
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:05:00 - [70] Edited by: Dramund on 14/03/2008 18:05:24 Originally by: Ah So Its simple really. Just like there's no cod left in the north sea, and the Japanese whaling fleet has to go all the way to the arctic to harpoon sushi-meat. Over-farming leads to extinction - fact. There's too many pirates and not enough people who enjoy being your fodder in their game-time. Perhaps CCP should introduce npc miners in lowsec belts? I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that there is no thrill in being the prey. I would love to bounce through low-sec, dodging pirates but there is no real interactivity in that task. Either they warp to you or they don't; there is no chase, no fight, just a warp-scramble on ships that clearly weren't engineered to survive the harsh, cold world of EvE. It's simply far too easy to get caught.

Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:22:00 - [71] Originally by: Kale Kold Ideas: 1). Cap ships (except dreads) should be banned from everywhere but 0.0 (this will make pirates happy) 2). Huge (non-self claimable) bounties should be put on pirates (-5.0 outlaw chars). (this will make anti-pies happy) 3). Complexes should be brought back and top ores in the belts. (This will make the carebears happy.) I like these ideas. Not sure how you'd get the non-self claimable bounties to work though. Unless the bounty was put on the ship that did the killing... hmmmm. #3 yes... make it more worthwhile for the bears so they come out more. #1 double yes! There's way too much cap dropping in lowsec these days. The more people who get into caps as time goes on, the worse this gets.
Vera Gemini Slave Raiders	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:33:00 - [72] Sorry you all are wrong, low sec is a waste. the ONLY way to fix it, make .4 and 3 high sec, make .2 and .1 0.0. woot i fixed it! More space for empire huggers, and more places to attempt to control. : ) BTW Real pirates work in high sec. Gankers work in low sec. You would be surprised at those who would pay a pierat to watch over there high sec systems. : ) Yes it takes alot of faction work, but lol @ the push button pirates. RvR? ****** yarrr <<< GEMINI SISTERS >>> PMS + Eve = Someone is gonna die
Venko Trenulo Wakizashi Renaissance	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:36:00 - [73] It's not just over-fishing that's caused the population of low-sec to drop. It's also due to explicit decisions on the part of the devs. Since CCP seem to pay a lot of attention to consequences, I assume this must be an intentional effect. Take low-sec missioning. My favorite spot used to be Aeschee (0.3) which has plenty of IV/20 agents. I needed to be careful getting my gear and loot to and from there, but once in the mission I was relatively safe from players... until the ability of pirates to scan down mission-runners was boosted. Is it a big surprise that there are fewer mission-runners in low sec? I think not: CCP must have wanted it this way. One population segment of low-sec that seems to have dropped significantly in the last year is the small POS-owner. At least four major "balancing" acts have hurt them. 1. Guns moved outside the shield. This makes it much harder to set up a reasonable defense. Controlling guns is all very well, but you need three people with Starbase Defense V on-line, and for small or one-man corps getting this kind of coverage is impossible. 2. Aggressors can scoop anchored gear once they've killed the POS. This change made it profitable to kill a POS, where before the pirate's only leverage was extortion. 3. Strontium clathrate storage was cut in half. This change made it fast to kill a POS. 4. Infinite-strength warp scrambling has given the pirates a lovely tool for interdicting the fueling and product transportation for POS operations. So the changes made it easy, profitable and fast to kill control towers and interdict shipments. These are all on one side of the equation. Where's the balance? Why is anybody surprised that there's less complex T2 material on the market, or fewer low-sec targets?
Yuki Santara Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:38:00 - [74] What I would like to see for lowsec or other systems would be an area of space where CONCORD is active, but can be outrun. Meaning that you have a realistic change to survive a pirate encounter even without a blob around the corner, if you just manage to hang on long enough for CONCORD to arrive. Currently the bigger the ship, the more risky it is to go into lowsec. I believe it should be inverse proportional.
000Hunter000 Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:40:00 - [75] The only chance in hell u have to get carebears and small empire corps to go to low sec is by making it less dangerous, simple as that, no reward can outweigh more security. Please note that i did not say that i agree with this in any way, i just stated the obvious. _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:41:00 - [76] Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 14/03/2008 18:41:32 Originally by: Dramund I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that there is no thrill in being the prey. I would love to bounce through low-sec, dodging pirates but there is no real interactivity in that task. Either they warp to you or they don't; there is no chase, no fight, just a warp-scramble on ships that clearly weren't engineered to survive the harsh, cold world of EvE. It's simply far too easy to get caught. I agree. This is a good point. I can understand the view of those carebears who feel venturing into low-sec is a waste of time. The rewards for risking their necks don't nearly justify the risk, and furthermore once in low-sec they have little wherewithall to defend themselves or make for their escape. They are camped at a gate or jumped in on in a belt, without much in the way of active defense. Some of you misunderstand the purpose of my thread. This is not pirate whinage. This is Eve player whinage. Whether you are a miner, industrialist, PvPer, PvEer, or a pirate (which I believe is altogether different from a 'PvPer' as it is commonly conceived), this aspect of the game is broken. Low-sec is pretty much wasted space. - Industrialists need more reward for their risk and a better chance at surviving a pirate attack. Deer have a fair chance of getting away from a wolf. - The true "pirate" role in the game, that of the hunter, needs to be restored. We are the risk. We are the surprise. Without us, the reward cannot be sweet, because victory was never in doubt. CCP, please fix low-sec for the benefit of the entire Eve community.
Yuki Santara Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Nihilion Saro I agree. This is a good point. I can understand the view of those carebears who feel venturing into low-sec is a waste of time. The rewards for risking their necks don't nearly justify the risk, and furthermore once in low-sec they have little wherewithall to defend themselves or make for their escape. They are camped at a gate or jumped in on in a belt, without much in the way of active defense. Some of you misunderstand the purpose of my thread. This is not pirate whinage. This is Eve player whinage. Whether you are a miner, industrialist, PvPer, PvEer, or a pirate (which I believe is altogether different from a 'PvPer' as it is commonly conceived), this aspect of the game is broken. Low-sec is pretty much wasted space. - Industrialists need more reward for their risk and a better chance at surviving a pirate attack. Deer have a fair chance of getting away from a wolf. - The true "pirate" role in the game, that of the hunter, needs to be restored. We are the risk. We are the surprise. Without us, the reward cannot be sweet, because victory was never in doubt. CCP, please fix low-sec for the benefit of the entire Eve community. I very much agree with this. Sincerely, the prey.
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2008.03.14 18:54:00 - [78] As I have said before and will allways keep saying Lowsec needs a commodity you cannot get anywhere else that the whole of industry in EvE needs. Even if it was something as simple as 1 mineral type from a certain ore like mexalon or isogen or Ice. Maybe allowing POS's in hi-sec was another mistake also. I allways get flamed for sugesting this by ppl who think I or ppl like me just want easy ganks. Well you're entitled to your opinions just like I am but the fact is the majority of the time I'm in 0.0 and sometimes Hi-sec.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:03:00 - [79] How about these changes for low sec: Have the Empires go to war with each other, and in the process re-arrange themselves so that there are 4 high-sec circles separated by wide swaths of lowsec space in between them. Dissolve Concord. Police work and gate/station sentry guns will be taken care of by each Empire's Navy, and will be limited to each Empire's home area. Buff the respective Navies so that they can make 1.0 - 0.5 space as secure as it currently is. Make them respond to faction standing only (are you in good standing with the Minmatar Republic, for example?). Remove the players' sec status, it's not needed anymore. The system now relies on faction standings towards the 4 Empires only. The "low sec" areas between the 4 Empires are now war zones. Have roaming gangs of NPC's roam and open up on anyone who's aligned with their enemies. Have them open up on neutrals. Require all players to obtain some sort of visa or passport with each Empire, in order to not be attacked in this war zone. These passports drop if the ship is killed, and can be handed in for major faction boosts by whomever loots them. The NPC's drop passports/tokens too. If you shoot a player who's aligned with an Empire, you lose faction with that Empire, and gain faction with their enemies. We can then go to war with each other and with the NPC's, no difference. Pirates become Privateers, like in the age of sail with Privateers working for England, France, Spain, or Portugal. Or, you can shoot everyone and be hated by everyone. The carrot for going into or through this warzone? Collecting passports, dogtags, and other war-related stuff from NPC's and from players equally, with said passports and dog tags being extremely profitable if you bring them back to your agents back in the capital of the Empire you're allied with.
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:04:00 - [80] Maybe booby-trapped cargo would give carebears the edge they need.

Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:04:00 - [81] Originally by: Aria Selenis Why do so many make it seem like the bounty system is impossible to fix? Solution seems simple enough... Remove players needing to add bounties. Make the bounty automatic based on security status, a percentage of the value of the pirates current clone. Possible 20% at -1, finishing at 100% at -5, with a linear scale in between. This way, every pirate will have a bounty, encouraging more anti-pirates. Also, since the value is calculated off the value of your current clone, it's impossible to just have an alt or friend pod you to collect the bounty. Sure. You -could- still pod yourself with an alt. But you could never gain more than the value of your clone, so it would defeat the point.. you gain a million isk and pay a million isk for the new clone. The bounty is still on you, as your security status has not risen. (As previously said, bounty would be from CONCORD and not player bounties.) If you had any implants, it would be even more counter-productive. Not to mention, it gives a bonus for those who go after the more skilled pirates. You kill a low SP pirate, you get a small bounty (similar to killing an easy npc). Kill a pirate with 70M sp, and you're looking at 14 million ISK in bounty alone.. risk vs reward.. go for the easy targets, or the profitable targets? I don't really see a downside to this. The pirates can't cheat the system, the anti-pirates / bounty hunters get a system that actually works, and rewards them for going after more difficult prey. Good idea, it only has a big flaw. If will be a big isk faucet. 0.0 wars are already a big isk faucet thanks to insurance, add a kill payout and inflation will rise even more.
Kale Kold V i r u s	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:12:00 - [82] Edited by: Kale Kold on 14/03/2008 19:12:49 I like the idea of concord bounties. for example, if you go below -5.0 sec status your bounty increases to the cost of your current clone + the cost of any implants you have installed in it. So if you have 40 mil sps and a full set of implants you could be worth millions, maybe even billions of isk. that would make people come into lowsec and the piwats a bit less seen. Plus no one would pod themselves.
Sek syoup State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:37:00 - [83] Could possibly just tax things progressively the more in markets the further you get into hi-sec. Make it almost impossible to buy anything but the basics in 1.0, a little easier in .9, etc....
Derrys Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.03.14 19:46:00 - [84] Unfortunately for pirates, this is an equilibrium situation in which the number of targets is in balance with the threat level of predators, and I don't think it can be resolved in a way pirates will be completely happy with. It's a simple logical argument, really. If you want more people to go to lowsec, you need to adjust the equilibrium by decreasing the risk/reward ratio. That means either increasing the reward, or decreasing the risk. As others have pointed out, increasing the reward is problematic because it can have large, unpredictable effects on the economy and might not even have the desired effect, as it would attract larger entities who would "claim" the space that pirates currently have de facto control over. So, that leaves decreasing the risk, which in turn means making piracy harder. This is the part pirates won't like, of course, but I don't see an alternative -- the people who say that pirates are responsible for their own lack of targets are completely correct. It's similar to how T1 manufacturers complain about poor profit margins, really. Saturation of the market. I have plenty of ideas on how we could make piracy harder in a reasonably fair way, but I think that's a discussion for a different thread.
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:00:00 - [85] Edited by: isdisco3 on 14/03/2008 20:02:16 Risk vs reward. Lowsec does not need to be made safer. It is lowsec for that reason. You should not be safe, with the assurance of a massive army of policemen to come assist you in lowsec. That is what highsec is for. The problem with lowsec isn't lowsec. The problem with lowsec is highsec. The fact that you can make decent money in highsec keeps people there, and since the increase in reward from highsec to lowsec is minimal at best, people never find cause to leave. Nerf highsec. Remove most of the valuable asteroids, the objects of desire of many a strip-miner-armed miner from highsec and counter this by creating new more valuable ores for lowsec or at least by moving most of the good ones there anyway. Move all level 4 missions to lowsec, they don't even make sense with the RP of the game (how are we expected to believe that CONCORD who WTFBBQ's anyone within 15 seconds of aggression missed a giant pirate complex hiding in deadspace?). Highsec should have never been an area to make anything but pitifully small amounts of isk (at least from production, from trade, sure). Will the miners get popped? Sure. Will they whine and whine and whine about the fact that they might lose their internet spaceship while they were taking a nap mining and this is not fair and ruins EVE? Sure. Tough luck. Maybe you'll get lucky enough to make a fortune large enough to replace your ship loss 3 times over. Maybe you won't. Depends on how smart you are, how you use the tools available to you to avoid getting ganked (THE MAP which nobody seems to know how to use, new contacts in local, and knowing how to fit your ship for survivability. To conclude, highsec should be safe and unprofitable (at least via production, missioning, ratting, mining) for anyone except the newer players who flip out at 10k bounties. The only reasons to go there should be trade, travel between regions, and production. Lowsec should be relatively unsafe and much more profitable, and 0.0 should stay as it is mostly. It's got more than enough problems without CCP having to tweak its rats, minerals, and plexes. edit - as for those concerned about 0.0 alliances moving in, let them. They can't own space, claim sov, or go on epic titan slideshow fights. 0.0 should be far more profitable than lowsec (as it already is), I can't see why a corp would feel the need to come in and "defend space" when its not as valuable as what they already own. Plus they can't ever truly own it, the stations are NPC and anyone can dock up in them, anytime.
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:00:00 - [86] Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 14/03/2008 20:03:09 Originally by: Derrys Edited by: Derrys on 14/03/2008 19:49:42 Unfortunately for pirates, this is an equilibrium situation in which the presence of targets is in balance with the threat level of predators, and I don't think it can be resolved in a way pirates will be completely happy with. Which is a shame, because I acknowledge that piracy is a legitimate and desirable part of the game. It's a pretty simple situation, really. If you want more people to go to lowsec, you need to shift the equilibrium by decreasing the risk/reward ratio. That means either increasing the reward, or decreasing the risk. As others have pointed out, increasing the reward is problematic because it can have large, unpredictable effects on the economy and might not even have the desired effect, as it would attract larger entities who would "claim" the space that pirates currently have de facto control over. So, that leaves decreasing the risk, which in turn means making piracy harder. This is the part pirates won't like, of course, but I don't see an alternative -- the people who say that pirates are responsible for their own lack of targets are completely correct. It's similar to how T1 manufacturers complain about poor profit margins. Saturation of the market. I have plenty of ideas on how we could make piracy harder in a reasonably fair way, but I think that's a discussion for a different thread. Very interesting post, Derrys. I'd love to see what ideas you had. Create a thread?
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:00:00 - [87] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 14/03/2008 20:04:51 Look...the answer is not in making low sec a lot more profitable (it could use a bit of a boost though on general principle). Others have noted this although I do not think the major downside is making more pirates. There are already plenty...you can hardly move in low sec before bumping in to some in short order. More would mean they would probably fight each other more (maybe not a bad thing). The major problem is you really cannot put enough value in low sec as it is to make people want to go there. The rewards would frankly need to be better than 0.0 is now since today I have a better shot at getting in and ratting and surviving some 0.0 than I do in low sec. Making low sec that valuable is a game breaker. The solutions for low sec, whatever they are, will be changing mechanics so people have a chance at getting by out there. As noted earlier there are some possibilities that do not nerf pirates or carebears but merely allows for more ability to defend yourself in low sec. One would think pirates would be thrilled as this could quite possibly bring back some of the much coveted small gang PvP. As it stands it is running a gate camp, running a station camp and positively forget about mining/ratting. Once you are caught (webbed/scrammed) it is over 99.9% of the time for the guy caught...just dead and who the hell wants to sign up for that? That needs to be changed. Make it so pirates succeed FAR less frequently and you encourage more people out there. While pirates may have less chance at success each opportunity they should be able to get a lot more opportunities overall. On balance they get roughly the same number of kills and are more active seeking this out which equals more fun (has to be more fun than camping a station and hoping one of the corned carebears decides to make a break for it in a shuttle once per hour...I watched this once and thought to myself how pirates could possibly complain about mining being boring). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:12:00 - [88] Originally by: Tarminic CCP knows there's a problem, but coming up with a solution that both encourages more people to enter low-sec and makes both pirates and carebears happy is a tough proposition. put stuff with monetary value in the belts, more instanced stuff, easier to find, not 10/10 plex's after 4 hours of scanning but stuff that solo people with little coordination can venture out to grab, and see if its worth the risk. Its not very difficult, randomly disperse super rich isk ores or objects, that get traded to NPC factions, so that it is not player controlled. Tie it into faction warefar, like if you are carrying any of these objects you can be a target for anyone in low sec or empire of the warring race. the larger the item the larger the prize.... see... that took all of 30 seconds to develop makes perfect sense
Derrys Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:17:00 - [89] Originally by: isdisco3 Nerf highsec. Remove most of the valuable asteroids, the objects of desire of many a strip-miner-armed miner from highsec and counter this by creating new more valuable ores for lowsec or at least by moving most of the good ones there anyway. Move all level 4 missions to lowsec, they don't even make sense with the RP of the game (how are we expected to believe that CONCORD who WTFBBQ's anyone within 15 seconds of aggression missed a giant pirate complex hiding in deadspace?). You'll see a mass cancellation of accounts if you do that. Don't forget that an awful lot of highsec carebears are moneymaking alts. They exist only to run missions or mine to fund their mains with no risk. If you add risk, the reason for their existence evaporates -- they might as well rat with their main in Venal or whatever. It would cost CCP a lot of money, and for that reason alone it'll never happen.
decoherance The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:20:00 - [90] Originally by: Ieu Duin Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. lol you get no respect from me.

Ieu Duin Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:21:00 - [91] Originally by: Derrys Edited by: Derrys on 14/03/2008 19:49:42 Unfortunately for pirates, this is an equilibrium situation in which the presence of targets is in balance with the threat level of predators, and I don't think it can be resolved in a way pirates will be completely happy with. Which is a shame, because I acknowledge that piracy is a legitimate and desirable part of the game. It's a pretty simple situation, really. If you want more people to go to lowsec, you need to shift the equilibrium by decreasing the risk/reward ratio. That means either increasing the reward, or decreasing the risk. As others have pointed out, increasing the reward is problematic because it can have large, unpredictable effects on the economy and might not even have the desired effect, as it would attract larger entities who would "claim" the space that pirates currently have de facto control over. So, that leaves decreasing the risk, which in turn means making piracy harder. This is the part pirates won't like, of course, but I don't see an alternative -- the people who say that pirates are responsible for their own lack of targets are completely correct. It's similar to how T1 manufacturers complain about poor profit margins. Saturation of the market. I have plenty of ideas on how we could make piracy harder in a reasonably fair way, but I think that's a discussion for a different thread. The Risk vs. Reward burden should not be on the law abiding pilot. It should be on the Pirate. By entering a low sec section of space, the pilot has accepted that they might loose the fruits of their labor, their ship and possibly their avatar's life. The risk to attack another pilot should be the greatest risk present in the game. And a pilot who is willing to accept that heavy burden of risk should be rewarded with greater rewards for their efforts. The burden of risk vs. reward should be on the pirate. This would decrese priate actvitiy and increases the population of low security space. It would make both camps happy. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:29:00 - [92] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Make it so pirates succeed FAR less frequently... HOW? All encounters are gank situations, many vs. 1. How exactly can you make MANY succeed infrequently vs. ONE, pray tell? I mean, in every game out there and in every possible RL situation, getting ganked by many means your solo behind is dead. Off the top of my head (not saying they are good ideas but things that could be thought of): - Make lock times longer (be it via modules the target fits or nerfing overall lock times) - Make warp stabs and scrams a chance based thing like EW. You may have the scram awhile then fail a scram. Target ship might have a chance to escape (devil is in the balancing there but no reason it could not be done). - Keep smartbombing cap ships far away from gates/stations (yeah I know they in theory cannot SB near a gate but faction smarties get them the range they need). - Allow guards a chance to...you know...guard. As I suggested before maybe a little deployable shield bubble that miners/haulers can sit under while guards duke it out with pirates (ships in the bubble cannot use weapons/drones or warp away while shield is active...effect should last 1 minute after shield is down...so if pirates win they can still gank the miners). - Get gankers off the gates/stations altogether. In return find ways for them to pluck you out of space mid-warp with a warp disruption bubble or something (I have heard this is possible but never seen it...I would think if it was possible people would do it more). Then lazy ships go in straight to the station and get caught on that vector. Smart pilots take time to zoom to planets or belts to come in on a different line. Pirates and players game around trying to out guess the other (could also make scanning/probing more a tactical tool). Don't kill me on specifics...have not really thought all the above through but the point is there are possibilities and maybe with tweaks some of the above or entirely different ideas could make EVE more fun for everybody. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:35:00 - [93] Originally by: Derrys You'll see a mass cancellation of accounts if you do that. Don't forget that an awful lot of highsec carebears are moneymaking alts. They exist only to run missions or mine to fund their mains with no risk. If you add risk, the reason for their existence evaporates -- they might as well rat with their main in Venal or whatever. It would cost CCP a lot of money, and for that reason alone it'll never happen. I disagree. If they are just moneymaking alts for 0.0 guys who can't make isk in 0.0, then sure they might go away because they won't be able to afk mine for 5 hours while playing slideshow pew pew. If they're mains of people who are industrialists and missionrunners and such, then they'll move, adapt, and learn because they will have to to keep earning. There should never be an instance in EVE where isk can be earned risk-free. If the risk is extremely minimal, the reward should be commensurate. The fact that now people are used to next-to-no-risk, medium-to-high reward doesn't mean that we can't do anything about fixing that. And remember, part of the reason why its mostly pirates who operate in lowsec is that anti-pies mostly due so out of an RP or "moral" justification for doing so. If you had a 200%-300% boost in lowsec attendance, the carebears who currently earn isk for no risk would form up and learn to defend themselves. There are already major industrial alliances in highsec, all it would require is them to form a defense wing.
Kuga Kita Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:36:00 - [94] Originally by: isdisco3 lots of good stuff +1
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:37:00 - [95] Originally by: Ieu Duin The Risk vs. Reward burden should not be on the law abiding pilot. It should be on the Pirate. By entering a low sec section of space, the pilot has accepted that they might loose the fruits of their labor, their ship and possibly their avatar's life. I completely disagree. By this logic anyone in a ship without guns should be allowed to make as much isk as they desire with no penalties or risks whatsoever. You should be forced to take a risk to make a lot of isk (hey that rhymes!), across the board, to everyone. And pirates, as the aggressors in lowsec, already take more risk than the people we attack as a result of sec status hits, becoming outlaws (allowing anyone who feels like it to shoot us), and getting aggro from sentry guns if we're on gates.
Shadow Joy Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:45:00 - [96] Originally by: isdisco3 And pirates, as the aggressors in lowsec, already take more risk than the people we attack as a result of sec status hits, becoming outlaws (allowing anyone who feels like it to shoot us), and getting aggro from sentry guns if we're on gates. Risk from a sec status hit? Minimal, if any. Risk from becoming an outlaw? Minimal - people in low-sec and null can already shoot you if they want to. Risk from sentry gun aggro? Minimal if you fit a proper tank. By your own logic your income should be cut by a significant fraction.
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:45:00 - [97] Originally by: isdisco3 I completely disagree. By this logic anyone in a ship without guns should be allowed to make as much isk as they desire with no penalties or risks whatsoever. You should be forced to take a risk to make a lot of isk (hey that rhymes!), across the board, to everyone. And pirates, as the aggressors in lowsec, already take more risk than the people we attack as a result of sec status hits, becoming outlaws (allowing anyone who feels like it to shoot us), and getting aggro from sentry guns if we're on gates. Oh you poor things. . .
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 20:45:00 - [98] Some great solutions have been put forth to a genuine problem. Can we get a Dev response?
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 21:02:00 - [99] Originally by: Shadow Joy Risk from a sec status hit? Minimal, if any. Risk from becoming an outlaw? Minimal - people in low-sec and null can already shoot you if they want to. Risk from sentry gun aggro? Minimal if you fit a proper tank. By your own logic your income should be cut by a significant fraction. The risk from the sec status is tied to becoming an outlaw. Many people attack us on gates because we are outlaw, and we have lost many a good pilot to an enemy gang who only shoots one of us, preventing the rest of us who can't tank sentries from helping out. It is a significant risk. The risk from sentry guns is immense. You state that it is minimal if I fit a proper tank, and this is true - but I am using my skills, knowledge, and isk to counter a possible threat. I am not "safe" because the sentry guns do no damage to me, I am "safe" because I've adapted my plans to account for them. And I'm not "safe" anyway, its never safe or wise to be sitting under 300+ dps of sentry fire. By engaging in pvp in any form, we are risking our ships and possibly (but hopefully not) our pods. As a result we make somewhat good income (its definitely not a lot as any pirate can tell you; veto even puts our ransoms up in our publicly available forums if you want to fact-check). A hulk pilot sitting in highsec afk mining risks absolutely nothing and is as close to 100% as you can get in EVE (his only enemies being the newly-formed Jihadswarm). His rewards should be miniscule to the point of being worthless, because his risk is miniscule to the point of being 100% safe.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 21:09:00 - [100] Originally by: isdisco3 By engaging in pvp in any form, we are risking our ships and possibly (but hopefully not) our pods. As a result we make somewhat good income (its definitely not a lot as any pirate can tell you; veto even puts our ransoms up in our publicly available forums if you want to fact-check). A hulk pilot sitting in highsec afk mining risks absolutely nothing and is as close to 100% as you can get in EVE (his only enemies being the newly-formed Jihadswarm). His rewards should be miniscule to the point of being worthless, because his risk is miniscule to the point of being 100% safe. I would not call what most pirates in low sec do as "PvP" except in the broadest definition of the term. I frequent a low sec station and it is almost perpetually camped by a local pirate group. They sit outside with as many as 8 ships including a carrier and pounce on anything that comes out of the station. On the very rare occasion I have seen someone bring a similar group to fight them they just dock at the station they are hugging. Same if they gate camp (they keep scouts out and see trouble long before it becomes a worry for them). Their risk is near nothing. They are all -10 pilots too and revel in it rather than seeing it a hindrance. And Hulk pilots in high sec almost perfectly safe? Maybe you missed Goons going after them recently. Last I checked (about a week ago) Goons had suicided over 120 Hulks in hi sec in about a week. Then ask if a freighter pilot with 1+ billion ISK in cargo feels safe in his defenseless and staggeringly slow 1 billion ISK ship. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"

Hait Technology Acquisition Collective Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:13:00 - [101] As far as I can tell, most of the problem points arise from solo play. Gate camps, ganking, inability to find 1 v 1 pvp.... I heartily do not indorce the often raised point to join a corp / alliance to play eve. There are many people who enjoy being part of the everchanging online existence and at the same time enjoy solo play. But at this time in eve's development solo = death.
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:21:00 - [102] Edited by: Dramund on 14/03/2008 22:22:19 Originally by: Hait As far as I can tell, most of the problem points arise from solo play. Gate camps, ganking, inability to find 1 v 1 pvp.... I heartily do not indorce the often raised point to join a corp / alliance to play eve. There are many people who enjoy being part of the everchanging online existence and at the same time enjoy solo play. But at this time in eve's development solo = death. ...in low sec. And that's kind of the problem. Pirates eliminate risk by tanking gate guns, staying in groups, and warping away at the first sign of a challenge. Solo players eliminate risk by staying the hell away from low sec. There is no way any amount of isk - and less players play just to make isk than some pirates think - will entice me to hop and skip through a saturated minefield where I have a 0% chance of surviving or even having some fun before getting blown to pieces. And I know pirates know in their gut that anyone who stumbles into their camp is a sucker. Its hard to "reason" with them to come back.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:28:00 - [103] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 14/03/2008 22:28:35 BS. It's not impossible to stay alive in lowsec, people just aren't willing to use their brains to do so. I can fly my ***** hurricane past a gatecamp. Lowsec needs some boosting...however, you don't -need- to convince the "Zomfg every lowsec gate has a giant 21353405-man pirate ganksquad ready to insta***me" people. It just needs to be a bit more profitable than it currently is to correctly reward the people who are in it, and to encourage some high-sec players to come into lowsec.
Kery Syander The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:32:00 - [104] Ore in lowsec is worthless, rats in lowsec are worthless, missions in lowsec pay almost the same as those in highsec. This has been the case in eve for as long as I've been playing (almost 2 years). Lowsec does suck, it is underpopulated, there isn't any real isk to be made there which is why no one is living there. As much as I'd love to see a lowsec buff (srsly this 'boost' patch would have been the perfect time to do it), I have seen that CCP just doesn't care. They say they do, but have they introduced ANYTHING that caused ANY appreciable amount of people to move to lowsec in the past 2 years? NO, and to be perfectly honest, it's appalling and pathetic. Devs keep spewing garbage from their mouths that hints of 'factional warfare', 'synth booster production', 'lvl 5 missions' etc. NONE OF IT HAS HELPED. CCP, BOOST LOWSEC FFS! Increase rat bounties, make level 5 missions BETTER than highsec level 4s, by an amount that makes them actually worth running, and worth losing a ship or two over every once in a while. Give lowsec an ore that is not found anywhere else that is actually worth mining. Low sec has the potential to be something really cool and interesting and fun, but CCP has wasted this oppertunity for so long now, I've become disillusioned that they will ever fix it. I would bet all my isk that CCP will not introduce anything in the next year that noticably increases the average population of lowsec. Pathetic. -----
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:42:00 - [105] Originally by: isdisco3 Misc posts.. I think you don't know your carebears...... The average time a player stays in EVE is 7 months (last published figure afaik). that's about enough time to get to the point where L4's aren't really challenging anymore. The players who play this game against themselves and don't want to PvP, well, they don't want to PvP! Nothing you can do will make them play the PvP game, so all you'll do by removing play options from high-sec is making them quit the game so much sooner. I do agree with you that high-sec needs to have the possible earnings reduced, but removing game options is not the solutions. A 30% increase in mission rat damage and maybe tank would probably be a more valid solution. However, let's look at low-sec itself. It is SUPPOSED to be a crossover zone between high-sec and 0.0, with risk in-between. However, that is not the case as it is MUCH more dangerous. This also has to change if more people are to move there. The rewards of low-sec are (theoretically at least) fine. You get more LP/mission rewards, you can mine better 'roids, L5 missions are available (yes, I know CCP fubahr'd them, but they might be fixed) etc. What needs to be done is making the danger of low-sec as it should be, somewhere between high-sec and 0.0. Of.c. a lot of pirates will whine, moan, cry, and threaten since that'll expose them to evil things like actually loosing their ships, but that can't really be helped if low-sec is to become what it is supposed to be. The one thing that should probably be introduced is safe travel in low-sec. With that I mean that gate and station guns are beefed up massively, and I mean to concord ganking power! That'll mean that pirates will have to work for a living, and actually probe down mission runners etc. People will be able to travel to the low-sec system they want to work in mostly safe (apart from suicide gankers), but once they start doing something they'll be vulnerable. Compare this to earth history. Pirates were not boarding ships in the Jamestown harbor.... Another thing that'll need to be done is spread out mission agents to avoid the current mission hubs. What this'll do is reduce the amount of kills pirates get in low-sec (and lets be honest, most 'pirates' are just cheap gate/station gankers), and thus make it less attractive to be a low-sec pirate. There'll be fewer of them because only the good ones will be able to profit from it, and thus the risk of low-sec will be lowered to somewhere around where it should be. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Garat Mant Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.03.14 22:47:00 - [106] I like the twin ideas of boosting anti-pirate activities and lowsec mining put forward by Jora'h. I hope someone can mail the summary of this thread to Chronotis or Nozh... My .02 isk: Make the sec hit when attacking pirates a factor of several values: Your security rating, his security rating and the rating of the system. So a +3 player attacking a -6 player will get less of a security rating hit than if the situation were reversed. Create a deployable structure or module in the Rorqual/Orca that messes with the warp in spot; essentially it would put a pirate 200km away rather than warp to zero. Create a mid-slot module that allows a cruiser or similar to "guard" a targeted ship; you'd have to stick close to your bodyguard, but any attempt to target you would "slip" onto the guard. Make it chance based and related to sensor strength or similar. Fix defender missiles to allow guarding of multiple targets. Increase the frequency of gravimetric sites in .4 systems close to empire. Draw the miners in; the couple of gneiss belts I've helped mine have been very lucrative. We just had to watch our scanners to see the tell tale sign that the pirates in system had locked us down with probes. At that point we safe spotted or left. I hope those suggestions above aren't viewed as boosting carebears too much - they should all be restricted to lowsec activation or use and hopefully wouldn't change alliance fleet warfare too much. -G -- CEO, Moons Of Pluto industrial corporation. Recruiting mature players!
Kery Syander The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 23:00:00 - [107] I really don't think you need to nerf pirates and ganking, you just have to encourage more NRDS (not red don't shoot) kind of activites in lowsec, so that the PLAYERS are responsible for patrolling lowsec and making gatecamping both less profitable (lol is this possible? :P) and more dangerous. Make it worthwhile for large industrial corps and small alliances to move in and actually defend their home systems. More fun for everyone, tbh. -----
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 23:02:00 - [108] Originally by: Kerfira The average time a player stays in EVE is 7 months (last published figure afaik). that's about enough time to get to the point where L4's aren't really challenging anymore. That's also telling when you consider most people will tell you it takes 5 months or so to max out enough skills to be PvP ready (not counting tackling with a cheap ship). Also, if you've ran a trial account lately, about 7-8% percent of players online are trial accounts. That's the funny thing about a lot of people complaining about the bloatedness of empire. Its noob space. You take your tutorial there and its the best place to deal with the notoriously large learning curve. Most veterans move out to 0.0/low-sec. People should be more worried if Empire goes empty because that means, without a doubt, EvE would no longer have new players.
Kery Syander The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 23:07:00 - [109] Edited by: Kery Syander on 14/03/2008 23:10:39 Edited by: Kery Syander on 14/03/2008 23:08:48 Garat, some good ideas, some bad, imo. Originally by: Garat Mant Make the sec hit when attacking pirates a factor of several values: Your security rating, his security rating and the rating of the system. So a +3 player attacking a -6 player will get less of a security rating hit than if the situation were reversed. Anyone can attack an outlaw (< -5 sec status) without taking a security hit. Originally by: Garat Mant Create a deployable structure or module in the Rorqual/Orca that messes with the warp in spot; essentially it would put a pirate 200km away rather than warp to zero. I don't really think it's necessary to change how combat works really, the miners, etc can just have a scout in the next system over and give everyone plenty of warning. Edit: although I do like that this would give smaller/faster ships more of a role in lowsec. Lowsec is primarily dominated by BCs and BS which I feel make it even harder for carebears to fight back. Originally by: Garat Mant Create a mid-slot module that allows a cruiser or similar to "guard" a targeted ship; you'd have to stick close to your bodyguard, but any attempt to target you would "slip" onto the guard. Make it chance based and related to sensor strength or similar. Fix defender missiles to allow guarding of multiple targets. Yeah, fixing defender missiles like this would be a good idea, but not just for lowsec. :P Originally by: Garat Mant Increase the frequency of gravimetric sites in .4 systems close to empire. Draw the miners in; the couple of gneiss belts I've helped mine have been very lucrative. We just had to watch our scanners to see the tell tale sign that the pirates in system had locked us down with probes. At that point we safe spotted or left. Yep, I'll sign this. :D Make lowsec more profitable. Period. Gah, you guys are trying to make me think that CCP cares about lowsec and will ever do something to improve it. They won't. -----
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.14 23:55:00 - [110] Lack of reward is not the problem in low sec, too much risk is the problem. The risk to minners and PVEers is the fact they can't run away if they are locked down. The risk to pirates is they have to camp gates in blobs to be effective, because the first problem assures that too few people are willing to accept the current risks. Solo gate camping pirates don't last very long and hot drops are more common. A hypothetical idea à The hypothetical idea is - any ship can escape from any warp scramble, regardless of scram points 80% of the time. Would that possibly increase the population of low sec? It would lead to less things going boom at first, but suppose that a 80% chance to escape also lead to a 200% increase in the number of people in low sec, and for that matter in 0.0 space. Those same people would also be doing more things in space because, the likelihood that they would pop would also be much less so our Activity would increase as well - more people, doing more stuff means more people for other people to shoot. If there are twice as many players, doing twice as much stuff in space, then the total number of ships blowing up is about the same, just a shade less, than the current black or white/commit to combat philosophy. I ran some numbers in a test population. With the current mechanics, it took six hours to deplete a 100 player population to one player. With an 80% chance to escape it takes 18 hours to do the same thing. We can consider this an "Activity" measure. By increasing population and activity we'll get a more dynamic and more robust environment. Increasing the chance to escape combat will, in the end lead to the same number of ships going pop, simply due the reduction in risk, which in turn increases population and increases activity. They key to giving pirates something worth hunting is giving the hunted very good odds in getting away. Let's suppose a pirate can shoot at 1 ship every hour and be assured victory, or shoot at ten things an hour and only get 10% victory. At the end of the hour, the pirate still gets his kill, more non pirates played in low sec and maybe got a thrill from being attacked by a pirate but escaping. This works to the pirates favor too, not all hulk pilots are soft fuzzy solo carebears, some are bait or sitting on 10 mil SP in drones and 8 mil in engineering, not to mention the hot drop cap fleet just waiting for the pirate. End the Commit to combat philosophy, let players escape from 90% or 80% of any combat situation and we can end this high/low/no sec population debate. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)

kelpster Nameless Shipyards Incorperated R-I-P	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:03:00 - [111] agreed
William Darkk Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:21:00 - [112] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Lack of reward is not the problem in low sec, too much risk is the problem. The risk to minners and PVEers is the fact they can't run away if they are locked down. The risk to pirates is they have to camp gates in blobs to be effective, because the first problem assures that too few people are willing to accept the current risks. Solo gate camping pirates don't last very long and hot drops are more common. A hypothetical idea à The hypothetical idea is - any ship can escape from any warp scramble, regardless of scram points 80% of the time. Would that possibly increase the population of low sec? It would lead to less things going boom at first, but suppose that a 80% chance to escape also lead to a 200% increase in the number of people in low sec, and for that matter in 0.0 space. Those same people would also be doing more things in space because, the likelihood that they would pop would also be much less so our Activity would increase as well - more people, doing more stuff means more people for other people to shoot. If there are twice as many players, doing twice as much stuff in space, then the total number of ships blowing up is about the same, just a shade less, than the current black or white/commit to combat philosophy. I ran some numbers in a test population. With the current mechanics, it took six hours to deplete a 100 player population to one player. With an 80% chance to escape it takes 18 hours to do the same thing. We can consider this an "Activity" measure. By increasing population and activity we'll get a more dynamic and more robust environment. Increasing the chance to escape combat will, in the end lead to the same number of ships going pop, simply due the reduction in risk, which in turn increases population and increases activity. They key to giving pirates something worth hunting is giving the hunted very good odds in getting away. Let's suppose a pirate can shoot at 1 ship every hour and be assured victory, or shoot at ten things an hour and only get 10% victory. At the end of the hour, the pirate still gets his kill, more non pirates played in low sec and maybe got a thrill from being attacked by a pirate but escaping. This works to the pirates favor too, not all hulk pilots are soft fuzzy solo carebears, some are bait or sitting on 10 mil SP in drones and 8 mil in engineering, not to mention the hot drop cap fleet just waiting for the pirate. End the Commit to combat philosophy, let players escape from 90% or 80% of any combat situation and we can end this high/low/no sec population debate. I agree with this. That would make me much more willing to go into lowsec (I tried a few times but got owned when I forgot to turn off "use overview settings" on the directional scanner and couldn't see probes). I think the best way to implement it would be for each "pulse" of a warp scram/disruptor should have a fail chance. If multiple warp scrams/disruptors are on a target, each one after the first has an increased failure chance (see stacking nerf formula). That way if you turn on your tank and spam the "warp to station" button you might make it. The times I got ganked the only enjoyment I had came from the illusion that I might get away. If I actually could get away, then it would be exciting and fun. I like warping desperately out of a mission after the rats have come on surprisingly strong and broke my tank. Obviously for 0.0 you'd have bubbles that work same as always. Only other suggestion would be some sort of nerf to ship/cargo/module scanners to allow less target cherry-picking, but the chance based stuff is probably enough. I like the idea of mission fit = pvp fit, but that would require a complete overhaul of all missions. Also please buff l5 missions. -------------------------------------------------- <3 my Drones
Jack Jombardo The Last Samurais	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:22:00 - [113] Originally by: Adunh Slavy End the Commit to combat philosophy, let players escape from 90% or 80% of any combat situation and we can end this high/low/no sec population debate. Just make warp scrambler/desruptors like ECM a changs based think. Scrambler just have a 10% base changs, desruptors a 20% base changs. Stabis half this changs (with stacking penaltis!), skills increasing the changs. Maybe a ship-bonus for Assaults ? :D
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:34:00 - [114] Originally by: decoherance Originally by: Ieu Duin Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. lol you get no respect from me. I swear to god, EvE really is a job to some people. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:39:00 - [115] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Originally by: Adunh Slavy End the Commit to combat philosophy, let players escape from 90% or 80% of any combat situation and we can end this high/low/no sec population debate. Just make warp scrambler/desruptors like ECM a changs based think. Scrambler just have a 10% base changs, desruptors a 20% base changs. Stabis half this changs (with stacking penaltis!), skills increasing the changs. Maybe a ship-bonus for Assaults ? :D Well you might have to raise those probabilities a bit, but that could be a genuinely interesting line of thought. Alternatively what about giving warp scrams a short (less than web range) optimal and a longer falloff? One problem I see with it is that it kinda ruins the low-SP profession of tackler. There would need to be a T1 frigate for each race with a bonus to warp scram chance/range. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:40:00 - [116] Originally by: Malcanis I swear to god, EvE really is a job to some people. There are also a lot of people that actually enjoy mining and running missions all day in high sec. The "why" is a mystery to me too but horrifically enough the economy of EvE depends on them. . .
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:40:00 - [117] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Just make warp scrambler/desruptors like ECM a changs based think. Scrambler just have a 10% base changs, desruptors a 20% base changs. Stabis half this changs (with stacking penaltis!), skills increasing the changs. Maybe a ship-bonus for Assaults ? :D I do not think it has to be that complicated. Maybe this: if a ship is scrammed, when the player tries to warp, they get a straight up 80% chance to warp, regardless of points. If they fail to warp, then the scrambled player can't try to warp again for 15 seconds. Done. If we place the chance burden on the warp disruptor, then we give more strength to reasons to blob, more disruptors means better chances, that's against the ideas of giving the "victim" the chance to run away. We want the victim to have the same odds, regardless of any other conditions. 80% chance to escape any fight, guaranteed. Part of the solution to getting more people out there is making it more attractive to solo players and small gangs. If the chance burden can be placed on the solo ship being scrambled, then it doesn't matter how many scrams the attacker uses or how big their gang is, and it doesn't matter how big the defender's gang is either. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.15 00:52:00 - [118] Originally by: Malcanis One problem I see with it is that it kinda ruins the low-SP profession of tackler. There would need to be a T1 frigate for each race with a bonus to warp scram chance/range. It depends on which side of the equation we're looking to fix. What I am proposing is that any ship get an 80% chance to run regardless of any other conditions, straight up, no tricks or gimmicks. If you're scrammed and you hit warp, 80% of the time you warp, that's it. If you fail, you have to wait some time before you can try again. In that time you pop, fight back, whatever, you had your chance and you failed, time to fight. If it is chance based from the attacker, then more attackers means better odds, so bigger gangs, and to counter that, you need a bigger defending gang, so on and so forth, we end up with the same old blob issues we have now. If we want to make small gang and solo activities more attractive, we need things that do not get better with numbers. By allowing a solo miner to escape from a 100 man fleet, the 100 man fleet will find more fun in splitting up into 50 two man gangs or going solo themselves until it is time for a big battle with some other 100 man fleet. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Joey Judas Repo Distribution and Salvage	Posted - 2008.03.15 01:18:00 - [119] Not sure if this has been mentioned but a possible solution might be to scatter low sec around more, instead of huge pipes of empty low sec systems surrounded by high sec have small/medium clusters of high sec, surrounded by low sec, kind of like a castle/moat. That way low sec would have the added advantage of regular traffic. Traffic is the problem after all.... Either that or make it all 0.0
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 02:04:00 - [120] This has been an unusually good and productive thread with many good suggestions put forth. Ahh, if only CAOD could be as useful. I have no problem with new players dealing with the (extremely masssive) learning curve by doing things in highsec. I just think they shouldn't be able to make considerable amounts of isk simply by staying there long-term. And it seems a bit off the cuff to say that doing the things I've proposed would force mass cancellations and create the doom of highsec. As I've stated, I think the game and its players would quickly adapt as they have to many more radical changes in the past. I am firmly against any new modules that affect pvp and make it safer for players to get away, because those modules would find their way into "consensual" pvp combat and dramatically affect EVE pvp. It would make combat all but useless, because if you mess up and lose, you can still avoid all consequences of that 20% of the time. This is just a bad idea in my opinion. Finally, I don't think lowsec is more dangerous than 0.0 as put forth by many posters here. If you are alone, in your own corp, and you try to go to lowsec you can more than likely get out there safely. You can dock up if someone mean shows up without hassle, you can unload your loot / ore at a station and sell it right there for profit. In 0.0, if you can even get out there due to gatecamps in lowsec and nullsec along the pipes, you can't dock up (unless you're in NPC space or have an agreement with whatever alliance owns the outpost) and you can't as a result offload your loots / ore. So you can go out there for one trip until your cargo is hold, then you have to fight the gatecamps on the way back dodging bubbles and the tendancy of the larger alliances to hotdrop carriers on just about anything with an engine just to make it back to lowsec. The suggestion increasing complexes in lowsec is an excellent one. Anything to boost lowsec's value over highsec.

Tarron Sarek Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.03.15 02:19:00 - [121] Introducing HIC's didn't really help the issue. Sorry, couldn't resist. I just had to mention it. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Malik77 Empire Manufacturing	Posted - 2008.03.15 02:47:00 - [122] How about expanding the size of low security so that there are wide tracks of low-sec between each of the empires? This would force players to stay in a single empire or cross wide areas of low-sec in order travel between them.
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:15:00 - [123] Edited by: Soporo on 15/03/2008 04:23:27 Originally by: isdisco3 1.As I've stated, I think the game and its players would quickly adapt as they have to many more radical changes in the past. 2.Finally, I don't think lowsec is more dangerous than 0.0 as put forth by many posters here. If you are alone, in your own corp, and you try to go to lowsec you can more than likely get out there safely. You can dock up if someone mean shows up without hassle, you can unload your loot / ore at a station and sell it right there for profit. In 0.0, if you can even get out there due to gatecamps in lowsec and nullsec along the pipes, you can't dock up (unless you're in NPC space or have an agreement with whatever alliance owns the outpost) and you can't as a result offload your loots / ore. So you can go out there for one trip until your cargo is hold, then you have to fight the gatecamps on the way back dodging bubbles and the tendancy of the larger alliances to hotdrop carriers on just about anything with an engine just to make it back to lowsec. The suggestion increasing complexes in lowsec is an excellent one. Anything to boost lowsec's value over highsec. Bolded for emphasis. 1. You think...etc. I can tell ya right now, if they nerfed High-Sec anymore (particularly missions or mining) I would leave the game for good.I know I am not the only one, not by a long shot. Hell they tried that tactic once remember? Moved some missions to Lowsec hoping to lure Emp peeps, remember how that turned out? Was a complete and utter Epic-Fail. Still is. Most adapted by saying f* that, not worth the risk. 2.Dude, I can JC to 0.0 right now and jump into a Hulk and mine high end stuff for 4 hours straight without any worries but rats, asuming I keep an eye on local. Why? Because a large number of people work together and are dedicated to keeping that area safe from random tools and unfriendly neighbors. What would happen if I tried that in ANY Lowsec? You know damn good and well. Give me a friggin break. That means LOW-SEC IS VASTLY MORE DANGEROUS for PvE'ers/Miners, I really don't see how anyone can successfully argue the point. Asuming I watched local carefully, and never got jumped, the ISK/Hour/Risk/reward deal would be sucktastic. Some jackass comes into the system, hell...jump back to station...wait....jump back out to the belt...mine for 2 minutes...some other red comes in...crap...jump to station...etc etc add nausseaum. IF I get jumped successfully I'm dead, period. I lose an expensive ship and mods and whatever minerals I mined for mediocre potential rewards. Bring friends? Ok, now an even larger gang or Carrier shows up. CCP likes the idea of few slotted, paper thin Miners and Industrials. This and the fact that gank owns defense, coupled with craptastic rewards there = LOLZ Lowsec.**
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:18:00 - [124] Originally by: Malik77 How about expanding the size of low security so that there are wide tracks of low-sec between each of the empires? This would force players to stay in a single empire or cross wide areas of low-sec in order travel between them. Force players to...quit the damn game you mean. I got a better idea, why not Force the prats out of LowSec and into 0.0? Why not? Its the same reasoning you are using. See how lame that is?
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:23:00 - [125] Originally by: isdisco3 I am firmly against any new modules that affect pvp and make it safer for players to get away, because those modules would find their way into "consensual" pvp combat and dramatically affect EVE pvp. It would make combat all but useless, because if you mess up and lose, you can still avoid all consequences of that 20% of the time. This is just a bad idea in my opinion. If you're replying to my post, I am not proposing any new modules. I do however want to ask why it is bad, in your view, to let players flee combat more often than not. Suppose only 10% of fights result in something blowing up, but you also get into ten times more fights. Is the fun in the fight or the kill mail? The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Corvus Anderran Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:04:00 - [126] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: isdisco3 I am firmly against any new modules that affect pvp and make it safer for players to get away, because those modules would find their way into "consensual" pvp combat and dramatically affect EVE pvp. It would make combat all but useless, because if you mess up and lose, you can still avoid all consequences of that 20% of the time. This is just a bad idea in my opinion. If you're replying to my post, I am not proposing any new modules. I do however want to ask why it is bad, in your view, to let players flee combat more often than not. Suppose only 10% of fights result in something blowing up, but you also get into ten times more fights. Is the fun in the fight or the kill mail? I'm still not sure what to make of this. At first I really like it, 10x more fights with 10x less chance of a kill suits me just fine. The question is, what happens to 0.0 alliance territory? If you're not careful you end up with a situation where nobody can actually control space because people just run through. Suppose you're in a 20 man guard fleet guarding a choke point to protect a big mining op further up the pipe. 10 hostiles run through your camp, and statistically speaking 8 of them are going to get through to hit the mining op. I don't know if this is good or bad really, it could give the smaller alliances a chance to achieve something against the big boys, it could promote small gang PvP over blobbing. When you think about it, a big part of Eve PvP is that it is decisive. If you are webbed and scrambled, you die. That's the purpose of the nanoship, it's one of few ways to prevent every encounter from being a decisive one. With an 80% escape chance without your nanoship then they wouldn't be necessary. I think you'd need to scale the chances though. Give small ships a high escape chance, and larger ships a lower one. Now your fleet engagements are still decisive, but a skirmish becomes a proper skirmish.
Sarakiel VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:51:00 - [127] The solution is cut the value of high sec missioning by half and introduce low sec missioning providing the rates of high sec missioning. Also only have velspar and scordite in high sec. Obviously I havent read one word of whats been said after the OP but I didnt care and empire carebears wont give a care about what I have to say so I guess it all works out.
Herring Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:00:00 - [128] Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox It easy. Move lvl 1 agents to 1.0 Move lvl 2 agents to 0.5 Move lvl 3 agents to < 0.4 Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 and don't forget... Move lvl 5 agents to 0.0 I'm sick of reinstalling, it's not what my days off are for
Brun Thorvald Red. Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:27:00 - [129] Originally by: Sarakiel The solution is cut the value of high sec missioning by half and introduce low sec missioning providing the rates of high sec missioning. Also only have velspar and scordite in high sec. Obviously I havent read one word of whats been said after the OP but I didnt care and empire carebears wont give a care about what I have to say so I guess it all works out. Dear Mr Whining Gankbear, To see the problem, head to losec in a mining cruiser and see how long you last before being ganked. If you want to spend less finding out why people stay in hisec, take a mining frigate. We'll still be here. PS I spend about 20% of my play time in losec
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:35:00 - [130] Originally by: Corvus Anderran I'm still not sure what to make of this. At first I really like it, 10x more fights with 10x less chance of a kill suits me just fine. The question is, what happens to 0.0 alliance territory? If you're not careful you end up with a situation where nobody can actually control space because people just run through. Suppose you're in a 20 man guard fleet guarding a choke point to protect a big mining op further up the pipe. 10 hostiles run through your camp, and statistically speaking 8 of them are going to get through to hit the mining op. I understand this concern. But let me point out, that everyone in the mining op also has the same chances to run away. What the attacking force is going to accomplish is disruption of the mining operation, but only in so much as they can strike the miners and chase them off the roids, or the miners and their support is going to chase the attackers off. The 80% chance applies to everyone. If an attacker wants to make sure they are going to kill off an entire mining op, they're going to have to bring in enough alpha DPS to hit them before they could run away. A fleet that size will attract a lot of attention and those miners will be docked or in combat ships by the time the attackers arrive. Originally by: Corvus Anderran I don't know if this is good or bad really, it could give the smaller alliances a chance to achieve something against the big boys, it could promote small gang PvP over blobbing. When you think about it, a big part of Eve PvP is that it is decisive. If you are webbed and scrambled, you die. That's the purpose of the nanoship, it's one of few ways to prevent every encounter from being a decisive one. With an 80% escape chance without your nanoship then they wouldn't be necessary. Lots of the odd little balance changes we see wouldn't be such a big deal with the 80% escape thing in place, certainly things like nanos would not be as advantageous. My guess is attacking players would start to go for more gank than tank so they could get in a few good hard hits in less time, and conversely a travel fit would go for more tank and drop WCS, istabs, nano structure etc. Originally by: Corvus Anderran I think you'd need to scale the chances though. Give small ships a high escape chance, and larger ships a lower one. Now your fleet engagements are still decisive, but a skirmish becomes a proper skirmish. That's an interesting idea, maybe scale from 90% chance for small things, shuttles and frigs up to about 50% for caps. That may also help mitigate the alliance defense concern somewhat. Overall thought we'd still want to have most players be able to run away most of the time, putting cruisers barges and industrials in the 80% range. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)

Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 07:22:00 - [131] Originally by: isdisco3 I have no problem with new players dealing with the (extremely masssive) learning curve by doing things in highsec. I just think they shouldn't be able to make considerable amounts of isk simply by staying there long-term. And it seems a bit off the cuff to say that doing the things I've proposed would force mass cancellations and create the doom of highsec. As I've stated, I think the game and its players would quickly adapt as they have to many more radical changes in the past. Sigh,always there. Where the heck you think the people find the isk to buy the juicy ships you want to destroy? From tin air? Selling GTC? Buying isk? If the isk generatin activity in high sec is reduced to "pitiful level" the "10k isk bounties that make new players gasp" as you have suggested in one of your previous post, the player will have a hard earned cruiser the first time they enter in low sec, will lose it in less than a day to a BS gang, spend another 20 days to get the second, lose it again and then quit EVE. Good system to leave eve to veteran players that already have the isk and remove new players, bad system to attract new players.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 07:26:00 - [132] Originally by: Herring Originally by: Zarquon Beeblebrox It easy. Move lvl 1 agents to 1.0 Move lvl 2 agents to 0.5 Move lvl 3 agents to < 0.4 Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 and don't forget... Move lvl 5 agents to 0.0 and don't forget... move player to other games.
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.15 07:36:00 - [133] Originally by: isdisco3 Nerf highsec. Remove most of the valuable asteroids, the objects of desire of many a strip-miner-armed miner from highsec and counter this by creating new more valuable ores for lowsec or at least by moving most of the good ones there anyway. Move all level 4 missions to lowsec, they don't even make sense with the RP of the game (how are we expected to believe that CONCORD who WTFBBQ's anyone within 15 seconds of aggression missed a giant pirate complex hiding in deadspace?). Same ***, different day... -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)*
Norwood Franskly Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 07:43:00 - [134] I posted this in the other thread but I'll post it here, why not have static complexes in certain low sec systems eg complexes that show up on the overview and don't need to be scanned out, that way it creates a focal point that the corps and alliances in low sec can fight for control over, kind of like the conquerable stations in 0.0 but without all the cyno jammer and pos BS that 0.0 has. Or maybe not complexes but something similar, how about conquerable structures that generate isk hourly or things like (NPC)mining outposts, or automated gas cloud harvesters, asteroid colonies or similar that generates income and gives alliances something to fight over. Make an item like an anchorable can, call it a power cell or a solar array or similar. If you anchor enough of these power cells at fixed points in the designated system the mining outpost comes online and starts generating isk into the corp wallet. If someone else comes along and shoots the power cell down you stop gaining the isk. Or even better someone comes along and anchors their own power cell they take over control of the isk. Make it like a game of capture the flag between alliances, maybe stick 7 points in each sytsem and you need a power cell anchored at 4 of the 7 points to control the outpost. It could be fun and would need a lot of co-operation between alliances. The rewards from controlling the outposts would need to pay for the cost of ships that defend it, to make it worthwhile.
Shadow Joy Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 07:59:00 - [135] Originally by: isdisco3 And it seems a bit off the cuff to say that doing the things I've proposed would force mass cancellations and create the doom of highsec. As I've stated, I think the game and its players would quickly adapt as they have to many more radical changes in the past. There is a mountain of evidence that says the majority of characters are in high sec. You're right that the changes you want won't necessarily mean doom, but there will be a certain amount of players who will move on to another game. EVE isn't the small game it was a few years ago. Radical changes have bigger consequences. Originally by: isdisco3 I am firmly against any new modules that affect pvp and make it safer for players to get away, because those modules would find their way into "consensual" pvp combat and dramatically affect EVE pvp. So you want Empire players to change, but don't want any changes to your play style? Sounds hypocritical to me. One clear meme in this thread is that it is no fun to be ganked. Giving people a chance to get away no matter the odds will encourage people to take risks. Originally by: isdisco3 Finally, I don't think lowsec is more dangerous than 0.0 as put forth by many posters here. Null sec space can be secured against other players. Low sec can not. Originally by: isdisco3 The suggestion increasing complexes in lowsec is an excellent one. Anything to boost lowsec's value over highsec. On this we agree, but it is a balancing act. As pointed out earlier in this thread, anything too attractive will draw in the null space players.
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2008.03.15 08:54:00 - [136] Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. I know it may some self-interested because I am just looking for chumps to deprive of their hard-earned assets, but think about it: Part of what makes MMOs what they are is that they are...well, a little bit real. The fear that pirates inspire in the hearts of noobs and carebears is real, and that is priceless. What other kind of game can inspire real emotion? The fear of a dread pirate, the sorrow of having lost your ship, or even on occasion that sweet sigh of relief after having gotten away (not likely). Do you know what I mean? CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Thank you for your time. Nihilion Saro So i get from this that you didn't go to low sec yourself in your previous carebear career , yet when you go pirate you want others to do just what you yourself didn't do?Why does everyone want to get others into pvp these days only when and if they themselves are in search of ganking/pirating?
Jmanis Catharg Stickler inc	Posted - 2008.03.15 08:59:00 - [137] The fundamental problem is, well, what's mining need? Mining lasers and a hauler. What do mission runners need? PvE setups. What defends against pirates? PvP setups. What do pirates use? PvP setups. Point being that you can increase the mineral/missions all you like, it won't draw people out to the lawless low sec. 0.0 is different, in so far as organised alliances and territory make 0.0 safer than low sec. If you want the carebears to come out of the woodwork and enter low sec, make the "carebear stuff" require a PvP fit, not a PvE fit.
Sarakiel VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.15 09:09:00 - [138] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg The fundamental problem is, well, what's mining need? Mining lasers and a hauler. What do mission runners need? PvE setups. What defends against pirates? PvP setups. What do pirates use? PvP setups. Point being that you can increase the mineral/missions all you like, it won't draw people out to the lawless low sec. 0.0 is different, in so far as organised alliances and territory make 0.0 safer than low sec. If you want the carebears to come out of the woodwork and enter low sec, make the "carebear stuff" require a PvP fit, not a PvE fit. or nerf isk gains off high sec missions and reward low sec missions with double the isk. If you can muster a pve build that does double the damage compared to a tech 1 named build then you could actually justify staying in high sec other than that it'll follow the same logic why covetor mining in 0.0 is way more effective (2.5x minimum) than hulk mining in high sec.
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.15 09:52:00 - [139] Edited by: Kyoto Luyi on 15/03/2008 09:52:39 It just becomes more and more obvious that people don't have a clue about 'how to fix lowsec'. The ultimate parralel to it is Felucca in Ultima Online. Go check out everything they tried to get more 'carebears' to go to the 'Lowsec' area there. It doesn't work - none of the carrot and stick methods EVER work. You guys want more targets - go fight eachother, because the 'carebears' don't give a flying toss what you want. They'll stay in empire, they'll PvE, they'll make isk, they'll PAY SUBS - oh, yes, that last one is the only one CCP really cares about. You damage their income, goodbye game... Any more half-arsed ideas you'd like to post? Pfft... -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)
Corvus Anderran Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:03:00 - [140] Edited by: Corvus Anderran on 15/03/2008 10:05:12 Originally by: Adunh Slavy I understand this concern. But let me point out, that everyone in the mining op also has the same chances to run away. What the attacking force is going to accomplish is disruption of the mining operation, but only in so much as they can strike the miners and chase them off the roids, or the miners and their support is going to chase the attackers off. The 80% chance applies to everyone. If an attacker wants to make sure they are going to kill off an entire mining op, they're going to have to bring in enough alpha DPS to hit them before they could run away. A fleet that size will attract a lot of attention and those miners will be docked or in combat ships by the time the attackers arrive. You know, the more I think about this idea, the more I like it. Blurring the lines a bit between dying and not dying when you take a risk, reducing the reliance on nanoships and generally making things a bit more dynamic. I feel like I'm missing something though.

Sarakiel VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:04:00 - [141] Edited by: Sarakiel on 15/03/2008 10:05:25 Originally by: Kyoto Luyi Edited by: Kyoto Luyi on 15/03/2008 09:52:39 It just becomes more and more obvious that people don't have a clue about 'how to fix lowsec'. The ultimate parralel to it is Felucca in Ultima Online. Go check out everything they tried to get more 'carebears' to go to the 'Lowsec' area there. It doesn't work - none of the carrot and stick methods EVER work. You guys want more targets - go fight eachother, because the 'carebears' don't give a flying toss what you want. They'll stay in empire, they'll PvE, they'll make isk, they'll PAY SUBS - oh, yes, that last one is the only one CCP really cares about. You damage their income, goodbye game... Any more half-arsed ideas you'd like to post? Pfft... lawls then gogo jihadswarm either way rather than wasting your time on your previous post you could just make the logical leap that CCP could merely introduce low sec missions that provide double the rewards of high sec missions, leave high sec missions as is, and increase ratting bounties in 0.0 proportionally to maintain their relative value. Most empire carebears are already ignorant enough that they havent seem to have figured out that 0.0 money making is as safe as high sec money making unless your actually afk. Its not much of a stretch to believe that they wont even recognise how they're being even more screwed by this and will continue to pay their subscriptions anyhow. Those that do have enough screws in place in their cranial region will either move out to 0.0 altogether or low sec mission for the helluva-it. Before you attempt to contest my claim that 0.0 money making is as safe as high sec money making pause for a moment and think whether you've actually been in 0.0 long enough to validate your opinion because if you do disagree with me that means you've either not given any 0.0 alliance a real shot, or your so slow that it takes more than 60 seconds for you to initiate warp to your nearest pos/safespot when a non-blue enters local.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:10:00 - [142] Originally by: Sarakiel or nerf isk gains off high sec missions and reward low sec missions with double the isk. Won't work. If rewards go up, but the same chance of loosing your ship remains for each encounter with a "pirate", then the perception will be that it's still broken. The only rewards that would make it work are so high that it would break the economy. If a player thinks he's going to loose a ship a day, then he needs to make at least a ship worth of ISK a day plus as much as he can make in high sec if not more as he has to put up with the time spent dealing with crappy low sec markets and time spent sitting in a station waiting for the ebil pirates to leave. That's just way too much ISK to pump into the economy. The solution resides with risk, not reward. Every ISK making activity also has an ISK cost asscoiated with it as you get into higher levels of game play, ammo, mining crystals, BPOs, data cores, POS fule, ozone - all of it. The cost to mission runners or miners in low sec is entire ships, the ISK gained must be worth more than the ship and potentialy implants to make the current risk acceptable not to mention the oppertunity cost associated with getting your friends to scout and gang and all that - to be in line with all other ISK making activities in the game. Want to pay me half a billion ISK for me to risk a 1 bil isk ship and half a bil in implants? No, didn't think so. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:11:00 - [143] Originally by: Sarakiel Before you attempt to contest my claim that 0.0 money making is as safe as high sec money making pause for a moment and think whether you've actually been in 0.0 long enough to validate your opinion because if you do disagree with me that means you've either not given any 0.0 alliance a real shot, or your so slow that it takes more than 60 seconds for you to initiate warp to your nearest pos/safespot when a non-blue enters local. Funnily enough, the rsst of us were discussing lowsec - 0,0? WTF has that got to do with lowsec? /care /fail -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:17:00 - [144] Edited by: Dramund on 15/03/2008 10:18:29 If the carrot were moved to low-sec, it is true a lot of solo miners would get bored and quit - many of them preferring to cancel their subscription than rush to form an alliance with the consequential drama. The solution isn't to bring current high-sec pilots into low-sec, its to find more people who want to be pirates when they join EvE in the first place. You can't change people's attitudes towards the game and general forums prove that beyond any doubt. That said, I think the reward for hunting pirates could stand to be boosted because I have heard it is generally a waste of time. The high-sec cluster isn't all bad though, if they quit, it simply means someone else will have to the do the mining (cough pirates) or deal with high ore prices (and hence equipment prices).
Sarakiel VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:30:00 - [145] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Sarakiel or nerf isk gains off high sec missions and reward low sec missions with double the isk. Won't work. If rewards go up, but the same chance of loosing your ship remains for each encounter with a "pirate", then the perception will be that it's still broken. The only rewards that would make it work are so high that it would break the economy. If a player thinks he's going to loose a ship a day, then he needs to make at least a ship worth of ISK a day plus as much as he can make in high sec if not more as he has to put up with the time spent dealing with crappy low sec markets and time spent sitting in a station waiting for the ebil pirates to leave. That's just way too much ISK to pump into the economy. The solution resides with risk, not reward. Every ISK making activity also has an ISK cost asscoiated with it as you get into higher levels of game play, ammo, mining crystals, BPOs, data cores, POS fule, ozone - all of it. The cost to mission runners or miners in low sec is entire ships, the ISK gained must be worth more than the ship and potentialy implants to make the current risk acceptable not to mention the oppertunity cost associated with getting your friends to scout and gang and all that - to be in line with all other ISK making activities in the game. Want to pay me half a billion ISK for me to risk a 1 bil isk ship and half a bil in implants? No, didn't think so. Yea even with 20-30 million in fittings and a fully insured bs thats still a tad too much missioning to make up for the risk. It'd be better to go to 0.0 anyhow. But hey, it already is better to go to 0.0. Its safer than lowsec, and its really about 3-4x the money of high sec. I suppose the only changes that could be made to lowsec are including some rarer ores or just leaving it as is as dead-space for pirates to enjoy their turf wars, I have no issue with that, thats a great way for new players to gain pvp experience off the pvp'ers that have been out there for years. I just really want to see high sec prove to be even less effective money than it is, but I'm dreaming there. Kyoto, your a failure. The comment was merely to avoid you wasting time stating a rebuttal that involved contesting my claim about the safety of 0.0 while I actually pointed out that your comment with regards to what I had suggested revealed an inability to craft logical leaps but rather needing them to be spoonfed to you. You then actually instead of defending yourself in some way merely revealed that everything I said went right over your head as somehow you had issue with my comments regarding 0.0 thinking that I was trying to relate it in some way to a 'lowsec fix' suggestion.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:44:00 - [146] Originally by: Dramund Edited by: Dramund on 15/03/2008 10:18:29 If the carrot were moved to low-sec, it is true a lot of solo miners would get bored and quit - many of them preferring to cancel their subscription than rush to form an alliance with the consequential drama. *The solution isn't to bring current* high-sec pilots into low-sec, its to find more people who want to be pirates when they join EvE in the first place.** You can't change people's attitudes towards the game and general forums prove that beyond any doubt. That said, I think the reward for hunting pirates could stand to be boosted because I have heard it is generally a waste of time. The high-sec cluster isn't all bad though, if they quit, it simply means someone else will have to the do the mining (cough pirates) or deal with high ore prices (and hence equipment prices). The solution to low sec explained for the unenlighted: we need more pirates in low sec
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:26:00 - [147] Originally by: Venkul Mul The solution to low sec explained for the unenlighted: we need more pirates in low sec Not as crazy as it sounds from a knee-jerk point of view. They'll fight each other, "anti-pirate" organizations will have plenty to hunt.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:26:00 - [148] You can give but you can't take it away. Yay! \o/ A boost! I deserves teh love! Boooo! >:( A nerf! Me and my 47 accounts are quitting!!! Think about it. Judging by the forums, quite a large percentage of MMO players are 3 year olds with a too much candy. They'll always take more, but they'll throw a bloody fit if you screw up and give them too much and try to take some of it back. The balance has changed in the 2 years I've been playing. Hisec is way more profitable now than it used to be. But good luck trying to sort it. Threadnaughts of whines would ensue should real balance be enforced. Supposedly there would be a mass exodus... Let them quit! Hit them with the door as many times as you can on their way out! Good riddance imo. The game would be better off without that crowd. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:31:00 - [149] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Supposedly there would be a mass exodus... Let them quit! Hit them with the door as many times as you can on their way out! Good riddance imo. The game would be better off without that crowd. Oh yeah - I can really see CCP wanting to lose around 100,000 paid accounts (and they ARE all paid, because even people who mine for isk to buy GTCs are still ensuring CCP SELL the GTC in the first place) so at $15/month that is only - ooooh - $1,500,000 a month - why would CCP care? -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)
Sarakiel VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:36:00 - [150] Originally by: Kyoto Luyi Oh yeah - I can really see CCP wanting to lose around 100,000 paid accounts I love arguments based on facts pulled out of thin air. Making up numbers is fun 99238923 7373 1128 2328@212 forty two 3888893 237231...3?

Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:36:00 - [151] Originally by: Kyoto Luyi ...typical they'd lose beeeeeeellions if my kind quit arguement... Byeeeeee! Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Doonoo Boonoo Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:41:00 - [152] Edited by: Doonoo Boonoo on 15/03/2008 11:50:21 Originally by: Kyoto Luyi Originally by: Roy Batty68 Supposedly there would be a mass exodus... Let them quit! Hit them with the door as many times as you can on their way out! Good riddance imo. The game would be better off without that crowd. Oh yeah - I can really see CCP wanting to lose around 100,000 paid accounts (and they ARE all paid, because even people who mine for isk to buy GTCs are still ensuring CCP SELL the GTC in the first place) so at $15/month that is only - ooooh - $1,500,000 a month - why would CCP care? You are deluded.Go back to bed darling. ps Try leaving the hi sec system you have been sat in for the last month before moaning about what you can't do in lo sec eh?
RuleoftheBone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:43:00 - [153] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 15/03/2008 11:48:18 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 15/03/2008 11:47:50 Man this dog never stops chasing it's poor tail . I'll keep this short and sweet: 1-I am against forcing anyone in the game to do anything they do not wish to do. Sandbox thing..remember? 2-I would not mind seeing NPC 0.0 islands within losec. Create a bunch of mini-Syndicate's or something with Delve-like rewards within. 3-I would not mind seeing something implemented regarding the currently silly hacking skill (oh boy...ships computer is ******...I'll have to train a speshul skill to open a lock on a crappy cargo can). I'd like to be able to deactivate (or activate ) sentry guns, docking mechanism's; and open POS shields without bringing along a cap fleet. Maybe make the rarely-used Recon Ship cyno bonus into a optional hack bonus...giving it an alternative role. Haha...even hack the hisec Navy response so outlaws can raid into hisec a couple jumps for ram-raiding. That would be fun . Anyway...sure I'd like more targets. But I don't want them forced under my guns. EDITI've never actually been to Delve. I just hear it's nice . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the ** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Gods Coldblood Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:55:00 - [154] Hey all, I am a solo pvper I like low sec and I like hunting pirates, I also find most of my fights are always outnumbered and this is no problem to me as I enjoy a good challenge. I donÆt see why a group of people ( pirates) shouldnÆt be able to camp a gate or station to kill a certain target/targetÆs. What I find a problem in low sec is a huge advantage is Captial ships being used to camp and destroy pretty much anything they want too if they know what there doing. IÆm not saying I think caps shouldnÆt be in low sec but what I am saying is for the most part I wish they werenÆt so effective.. IÆve been chased by 7 carrier pilots before with a average of 2 carrier pilots plus a fleet and you will find that the majority of corps in empire/low sec donÆt have cap ships so this makes a huge difference in combat for thoseÆs that donÆt want caps ships.. IÆve seen most pirate corpÆs when they get a challenge from another empire corp, just run get in their capitals and hey guess what no fight happens or the empire corp dies without any chance of wining.. This is just my thoughts on low sec Coldblood ____________________________ My video Way of the Warrior : Anxiety
Tellnan Matkiel Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:58:00 - [155] Originally by: Roy Batty68 They'll always take more, but they'll throw a bloody fit if you screw up and give them too much and try to take some of it back. Sounds like the OP and plenty of other pirates to me - whining that they have run out of targets to gank. What is it that is always said? Adapt or die? I think that's it. Well, adapt or die (of boredom perhaps). 3 weeks of reading the forums and the simple truth is that whiners are just whiners, and there are as many pirate whiners as empire whiners. It is really quite amusing. Sandbox - low sec is what its inhabitants make it.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.03.15 12:32:00 - [156] Originally by: Tellnan Matkiel Sounds like the OP and plenty of other pirates to me - whining that they have run out of targets to gank. What is it that is always said? Adapt or die? I think that's it. Well, adapt or die (of boredom perhaps). 3 weeks of reading the forums and the simple truth is that whiners are just whiners, and there are as many pirate whiners as empire whiners. It is really quite amusing. Sandbox - low sec is what its inhabitants make it. Fair points but you miss my sentiment. Imagine you are in a baseball league. Your team gets 6 strikes per out, all other teams get 3. Your team gets 15 men on the field, all others get 9. Now there are some people who would have a problem being on such a team. They would see the inequities of the situation and request that things be made fair. That's my point of view. However, there are people who would have no problem with such a situation and would get angry should it even be suggested that things be rebalanced. You can find several of them in this thread. I don't really give a crap whether lowsec gets "fixed" in the sense of more targets for pirates. I do have a problem with the risk/reward being as out of wack as it is now. Hisec has been buffed too much in the 2 years I've been playing. And it does relate to the lowsec situation, all the idiocy about people leaving in droves aside. I view these doom sayers as people who have no problem having 15 men on the field. They are spoiled brats imo who have no concern with overall game balance and their crying needs to be countered in threads such as these. This has nothing to do with forcing people into lowsec. This has nothing to do with entertaining bored pirates. This has everything to do with rewards being commencerate with the risk involved. An equation that has been more and more broken over time. And the apparent inability of people to face that situation in a mature way rather than crying about their 40lbs of candy being reduced in some way. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
kalistia Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.03.15 12:33:00 - [157] Edited by: kalistia on 15/03/2008 12:34:32 Low-sec has been made completely obsolete by the 0.0 NPC regions which basically are the NEW low-sec. You can earn good isk there...you can even do missions if you are in blue-terms with the majority of people there (and earn through LP fancy pirate ships and implants). If you are a pirate you will find plenty of oppurtunity targets ratting in the belts.
Lebwohl Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 12:36:00 - [158] As has been stated in this thread, increasing the profit in low-sec will not work, so what needs to be done is to make piracy less frequent, i.e. nerf pirates. The one idea that has not yet been mentioned in this thread are the NPC stations in low-sec: why they are 100% same as in hi-sec? In fact, why there are stations at all? OK, maybe removing them altogether is too drastic measure, but how about: Remove the cloning and market facilities Make docking and repair cost serious isk, preferably tied to the player's sec status Do not allow docking if aggroed I think nerfing the low-sec stations would make pirates life harder without affecting others (hi-sec players or 0.0 alliances). And with less pirates you get more mission runners and miners in low-sec. Just an idea...
Thornat Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.15 13:06:00 - [159] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Nihilion Saro CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Problem is to populate low-sec you would have to boost reward over 0.0 reward. Because risk to be in low-sec is often higher than that in 0.0. Agreed. Fundementaly this is at the heart of the problem. Strictly speaking though increasing the rewards of missions won't do anything. The problem isn't risk vs. reward, but rather that null sec is totaly uncontrollably lethal. Its an instance death sentence to anyone in an asteroid belt, so reward is completetly irrelevant. You might get a few more risk takers if the rewards where ridicoulesly good but not much. Ultimatly what needs to happen is a way for Low Sec piracy to be riskier for the pirates. Something that gives the miners an edge over pirates forcing them to take far higher risks in Low Sec to gain kills. I'm not sure what that would be but as long as low sec is as lethal as it is now because of pirates you would have to be truely stupid to mine or run missions there.
RuleoftheBone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 13:33:00 - [160] Originally by: Lebwohl As has been stated in this thread, increasing the profit in low-sec will not work, so what needs to be done is to make piracy less frequent, i.e. nerf pirates. The one idea that has not yet been mentioned in this thread are the NPC stations in low-sec: why they are 100% same as in hi-sec? In fact, why there are stations at all? OK, maybe removing them altogether is too drastic measure, but how about: Remove the cloning and market facilities Make docking and repair cost serious isk, preferably tied to the player's sec status Do not allow docking if aggroed I think nerfing the low-sec stations would make pirates life harder without affecting others (hi-sec players or 0.0 alliances). And with less pirates you get more mission runners and miners in low-sec. Just an idea... ROFL. How about applying the same to 0.0?? "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA

Cosmar Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2008.03.15 13:42:00 - [161] I think lowsec is fine. The way i think of lowsec it's not as a destination to go and do practical stuff, but a dangerous place to pass through. You have highsec for industrialists (producers, traders, scientists) smaller corps still building up and newbies. And 0.0 for strong organisations and veternans, good resources and isk making. Lowsec by contrast is the place for (EvE's) society's rejects. The people who can't fit into either 0.0 or highsec life. It's like the bad neighbourhoods of a city. And that's a good thing, it gives it it's own flavour. The notion that you can make people want to move to a bad part of town while keeping a high crime rate is ridiculous if you think about of it. There's no such thing as a wretched hive of scum and villany with a booming economy. If high sec becomes bad enough then people will either move to 0.0 and rent/claim some space or quit. If low sec becomes good enough, people from 0.0 will move in. There's no possible scenario where there's lots of industrialists, missionrunners etc.. in lowsec, while at the same time pirates have the upper hand. You're basicly asking people to play stupid.
Hasak Rain Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 13:58:00 - [162] I have not read this whole thread because I have already read 400 other such threads on the subject before and nothing ever gets agreed upon. Both the Carebears and Pirates have an absolute stance and no one is going to cross the line. {Well currently, it is the bears who have to cross a line} The only thing I can think of that would get me into low sec running missions is to make Mission Runners totally immune once they reach their missions whether that mission is deadspace or not. Once I reach it, I cannot be fired upon. This sounds unreasonable and takes away from the value of probes and things of that nature but i just don't see any other way. Forcing someone into a PvP situation while they are engaging in PvE in a multi billion isk ship just isn't going to happen. {at least not to anyone smart.} The trade off would be pirates could still gank Mission runners at gates coming into the system or at the stations. Increasing rewards and moving lvl 4's into Low sec won't work. Either people will find another profession, Run lvl 3's or quit the game. As the mechanics are now, I won't even take a T1 Raven into Low sec to run a mission. Why should I? Also, people shouldn't bash the OP. At least he was out front and honest with his intentions for starting this thread. Usually when one of these pops up, it is a thinly veiled "boost low sec" thread created by a ganker who has a different agenda. I have no beef with people who are honest even if I don't agree with them.
Lebwohl Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:03:00 - [163] Originally by: RuleoftheBone ROFL. How about applying the same to 0.0?? 0.0 is not the problem, pirate's life there is hard enough, and player stations in 0.0 often are limited in facilities and require docking fees. And NPC pirate-faction stations are fine for pirates to use ... The idea is not to stop piracy, just nerf a bit the low-sec variety of it. Now it is just too easy for pirate to sit in a station, looking for local, and pick his fights. And even if he picks a wrong fight, he has a station to where to run for repairs etc. Nothing is more annoying that get a miner you are protecting ganked, and then the bloody pirate runs to the nearest station and logs off. Where is the risk vs. reward for pirates?? Right now pirating in low-sec is just too easy and too low on risk.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:23:00 - [164] Originally by: Dramund Not as crazy as it sounds from a knee-jerk point of view. They'll fight each other, "anti-pirate" organizations will have plenty to hunt. 1. Exactly, there are plenty of targets in low-sec already. If these "pirates" were just looking for fun low-sec PvP, there wouldn't be a problem. It's available already. 2. They don't want fun tough PvP targets. These "pirates" want to gank easy targets. They want exactly the kind of easy ISK for them and their gamplay, that they complain is in Empire and keeps those exact targets from coming to them. 3. Thus, the only "fix" is one they wont want. It's to give the carebears a fighting chance if they venture into lowsec. This would bring us right back to step 1
YouKilled AnAlt Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:24:00 - [165] Answering this thread for the 50th time: Suicide ganking is rife, why? 'New' mercenary corps appear each week, why? Hi-sec war dec corps appear each week, why? All these issues are tied in together. All the above questions can be answered with one phrase: Because the pirates have moved to where the targets are. In the end everyone that isnt too dumb to notice that being flashy is just epeen will sec up and come and kill you all in hi sec. The solution is needed for this reason. Re-populate low sec, hi sec will become infinitely safer.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:44:00 - [166] Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 15/03/2008 14:45:42 Originally by: Lebwohl Nothing is more annoying that get a miner you are protecting ganked, and then the bloody pirate runs to the nearest station and logs off. Well, that's a problem with protection mechanisms in EVE, they are weak. It should be possible for the escort ships to boost non-combat ships (cargo haulers of all types, mining vessels) to the point where focused fire on said ships fails, and the pirates have to take out the ESCORTS first before the noncombattant becomes vulnerable. I'd like to see industrials, transports, freighters, and mining barges get ship bonuses that multiply the effectiveness of shield transfer arrays, and/or remote armor repairers aimed at them, to the point where if you have 5 ships protecting the damn thing, it's nigh-invulnerable, till you take those escorts out. Only haulers and mining ships should get these bonuses.
firzen one Envision Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:54:00 - [167] Originally by: Ishakaril Wouldn't it go a bit like this: 1) Boost reward for non-pirates in low sec 2) More targets for pirates in low sec 3) More pirates go to low sec 4) Risk goes up 5) Less targets again No matter what the "rewards" are in low sec, the number of pirates will be determined by the amount of targets. So the more reward, the more pirates and the risk/reward ratio remains the same. Seconded
NupetietVer Neuro Cartographic Services Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:15:00 - [168] Reason I don't do Low-Sec from personal experience: Been podded too much as a noob that I just avoid Low-sec at all. Can get low-sec ores through exploration in High-Sec. Make more ISK doing Lvl 3-4 missiosn in the safety of High-Sec. Low-Sec pirates really are the scum of the earth, been podded 4 times in one sitting trying to get my stuff back, that the lure of riches in Low-sec doesn't enter my mind at all.
Wensbane GeoCorp. Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:15:00 - [169] Instead of screaming "CCP, there are too many pirates in low-sec, SAVE US", why don't YOU do something about it? Sure, we have a lot of so-called "bounty-hunter" or "anti-pirate" corporations, but IN REALITY they don't do much to stop them. If there are SO MANY pirates everywhere in low-sec, why don't we have more people hunting them? One would think that some people would enjoy the thrill of being a bounty-hunter just as much as they enjoy being pirates. Also, pirates (except for those in organized corps) often fight each other, so you would even have that to your advantage. With that said, I believe pirates should be a rare sight, because come on, they ARE outlaws! So when you join a system and see 15 pirates and a single neutral, something must be very wrong, and no rewards given by CCP will fix that unless the players do something about it. It's like CCP saying that "in this true sandbox game you can even be a pirate and steal loot from others!" and EVERY SINGLE "PVPer" running off to do it, who would you kill THEN? That's right, each other... That's why I still think that outlaws should have greater penalties for going down that road, like in most games, because as it stands now we have plenty of "pirates" to scare people away from local, but most of them aren't even worthy of that title (no plan of action, no goals, no dedication, just bored guys with big guns hopping around from one low-sec system to the next). Anyway, if people felt that pirates were a sporadic presence in low-sec belts (as they should be), they would go there, but as it stands now and looking only at the numbers, mining or ratting in low-security systems is no more than an official invitation to get repeatedly GANKED. So, to sum it up, I would like: - Better rewards in low-sec. - Level 4+ missions restricted to low-sec. But more than anything else, I would like to see: - Well organized and DEDICATED bounty-hunter corporations. - Higher penalties for being an outlaw (so that only the truly skilled and/or dedicated ones would remain).
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:21:00 - [170] Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo ps Try leaving the hi sec system you have been sat in for the last month before moaning about what you can't do in lo sec eh? pps: I'm an alt, honeypie... You do realise zzz is a whole alliance of alts don't you? Hmm? Try three shredded wheat in future, nothing else can help you... -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)

Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:25:00 - [171] The reason people don't go to low sec is that currently, it's overhunted and too many pirates for not enough reward. So you can either nerf piracy or boost low sec rewards. The former is difficult, the latter easy. Make mining in low sec more profitable, make ratting in low sec more profitable. Then belt ratting may see a resurgence instead of it all being gate camping.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:28:00 - [172] Low-sec is a bit of an oddity in it's very conception. The four Empires should be the dominant force in EVE for a multitude of reasons, which in actual gameplay is reduced to that of CONCORD's presence. Logically the EVE universe should have ebb and flow. As an empire grows it claims new territory in order to sustain itself with new resources. Therefor low sec would eventually become high sec and null sec eventually becomes low sec. Everything gets pushed outwards in expansion. Of course that expansion can be slowed or even blocked completely if the resistance is strong enough. Too one or more empire factions can choose to take space away from one or more of the other factions and it's even possible for a pirate faction to do so in favorable conditions. It makes no sense that Heild should have about as many stations as Rens and yet the former is low sec and the latter high sec. Be sure if an empire took the time and effort and billions of isk to put up a station in a system they wouldn't do so if that system's security wasn't up to snuff or in the process of being so. If Caldari Provisions has a station in low sec and doesn't seek to enforce common lawfulness then in essence that station is either there solely to support criminals or soon looking to go bankrupt and non existent. I honestly think the solution to low sec's awkward place in the EVE universe is to begin to apply more realistic scenarios, more logic in how low sec should be. That and the fact that criminals should feel the full brunt of being outlaws as oppose to be coddled by CONCORD and insurance companies at the expense of law abiding citizens. ***
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:35:00 - [173] Originally by: Wensbane Instead of screaming "CCP, there are too many pirates in low-sec, SAVE US", why don't YOU do something about it? I don't hear that a lot, tbh. Most people seem to have silently adapted and stay out of low sec. That in turn causes pirate whines like Originally by: Wensbane So, to sum it up, I would like: - Better rewards in low-sec. - Level 4+ missions restricted to low-sec. calling for a nerf to all high sec activity to force more unwilling victims into their crosshairs. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.
Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:10:00 - [174] I've said this on another thread, but I see three courses that CCP could take in regards to lowsec. Nerfing highsec, and thus risking the loss of who knows how many subscriptions, is NOT a viable choice. 1) Raise the rewards of lowsec. I personally don't think this is too viable, because the the high risk isn't going anywhere, and raising the rewards high enough to compensate would break the economy beyond a shadow of a doubt. Beyond that, if lowsec got too profitable, the alliances from nullsec would be the ones to move in, and I somehow doubt either the pirates of the mission runners would like that. 2) Reduce the risk of lowsec. A lot of ways this could be accomplished, even without changing the underlying rules of lowsec. Someone has been tossing around the notion of making a "mining shield" that would force pirates to deal with escort warships before popping miners. Another idea would be to make armed versions of some of the more vulnerable ships - add a Q-ship model (with combat ability on a level with a cruiser or BC and the cargo room of a base industrial) to the ranks of the industrials, make a mining ship a step up from the exhumers with offensive ability comparable to (at least) a cruiser, make tech 2 versions of the mining cruisers, and so on. True pirates would likely view this as a challenge, while gankbears will scream bloody murder. 3) Leave lowsec alone. Let the players try to get more people into lowsec, perhaps by offering to protect some of the miners in return for money. I think pirate corps should be acting more like organized crime syndicates. Offer "protection" to miners for a price, offer to sell "passage" to industrialists and traders, and fight each other for "turf" that contains good mining sites and high-traffic routes. CCP could offer new contracts for these 'services', and install a standing that could be affected by these contracts only, to give a measure of how trustworthy a given corp is.
Hasak Rain Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:32:00 - [175] Honestly, it is fine the way it is. PvPers are always running their mouthes here about how EvE is "Dark and Harsh." Well I guess part of that harshness is that they are going to have to fight themselves since they have no easy ganks. It is Darwinism...suck it up.
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:38:00 - [176] Originally by: Ieu Duin Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. Oh, this is rich. I completely understand your request. What is befuddling is the complete misunderstanding that the reason there are no "roid-lubbers to gank" is because of you and your ilk. People don't play MMOs to be sheep. So CCP is going to put some snazzy new element in low-sec belts and all the sheep are going to come baying? Don't think so. Pirates are the reason no one is on low sec systems. There will never be a new "shiny" offered by CCP that will be worth me loosing my Hulk to get. Never. As long as the combat system in EvE favors pirates and gank squad deaths have no consequences to the gankers, low sec systems will be left to the pirates. The fact that you only found pirates in the low sec systems is absolutely hilarious. You guys have fun in your little circle. Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. Carebear online. Where the dark grimy universe consists on care bears shooting rainbows everywhere and hugging each other and making 4 corps so that they can happily dodge wardecs.
Hasak Rain Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:40:00 - [177] Edited by: Hasak Rain on 15/03/2008 16:40:39 EvE is a sandbox except you have to go to low sec according to the wannabe online Rambos.
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:32:00 - [178] Originally by: Nihilion Saro Some great solutions have been put forth to a genuine problem. Can we get a Dev response? No no we can't. "Solutions" have been crappy and they've been posted a zillion times already. I'd like to remind you carebears that a pirate kills for isks. A pvper kills for the km. And that gankblobs are the order of the day for pvp everywhere, not just for you. What I find most amusing is that the chinese farmers do go to low sec or raven-cloak-rat in 0.0 while the carebears don't. I might start respecting them a bit even if they are ****** up.
Tiny Tom Gateway Enterprises	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:33:00 - [179] The problem with low sec is rather simple: the developers have been controlling the rewards, but not the risks, for non-pirates. To me, it would make sense to have a progression of many game facets from high sec to 0.0. That progression is distinctly lacking in security, IMHO. A criminal act in high sec nets a security status hit and a destroyed ship. A similar act in low sec will bring a security status hit, but no authority will come to interfere with you. There is no punishment of any sort for "criminal" acts in 0.0. Frankly, I think this progression is a bit broken. Here are my thoughts for improving it. 1) Criminal acts should have a higher sec status penalty in high sec than low sec. This might already be the case, but the differential may warrant review. 2) Authorities shouldn't be outright absent in low sec. Criminal acts should trigger responses. The initial response should probably be timed similarly to an 0.5 response, but be smaller and then reinforced over time. Escaping the authorities should NOT be considered an exploit as it is in high sec. 3) Authorities should also be proactive about hunting down and breaking up larger criminal groups. 4) Larger, more lethal rat groups should be proactive about attacking (ultimately breaking up) larger non-criminal groups. 5) The group size that triggers NPC responses (both for criminasl and non-criminals) should go up as the security goes down. 6) Mission and rat NPC's should assume that newly arriving player PC's are reinforcements, and aggro accordingly. 7) Security forces should be very harsh toward gate and station camps. The only way to improve the risk-reward ratio for non-pirates to justify their entering low sec is to do something to limit the odds they face. As things stand, the rewards in low sec (for non-pirates) are more or less fixed, but the risks aren't. Change the later factor, and you may see more people vist.
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:40:00 - [180] Originally by: Adunh Slavy I do not think it has to be that complicated. Maybe this: if a ship is scrammed, when the player tries to warp, they get a straight up 80% chance to warp, regardless of points. If they fail to warp, then the scrambled player can't try to warp again for 15 seconds. Done. Bad idea. Even tweaking the timers you'll end up with either a timer that is too short to kill anything, or huge blobs to put a lot of dps on the victims. Not to mention the neutfest it'll become.

Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:47:00 - [181] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Ieu Duin Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. Oh, this is rich. I completely understand your request. What is befuddling is the complete misunderstanding that the reason there are no "roid-lubbers to gank" is because of you and your ilk. People don't play MMOs to be sheep. So CCP is going to put some snazzy new element in low-sec belts and all the sheep are going to come baying? Don't think so. Pirates are the reason no one is on low sec systems. There will never be a new "shiny" offered by CCP that will be worth me loosing my Hulk to get. Never. As long as the combat system in EvE favors pirates and gank squad deaths have no consequences to the gankers, low sec systems will be left to the pirates. The fact that you only found pirates in the low sec systems is absolutely hilarious. You guys have fun in your little circle. Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. Carebear online. Where the dark grimy universe consists on care bears shooting rainbows everywhere and hugging each other and making 4 corps so that they can happily dodge wardecs. I do so enjoy being called a carebear because I'm not terminally stupid enough to regularly go out into lowsec in a mission boat with hundreds of millions in modules so some ganker can get his jollies and his isk by popping me. If that is such a horrible crime then I have to say I'm a carebear, and proud of it, because apparently 'carebear' means 'too smart to give away all the isk I earn to a whining ganker.'
RuleoftheBone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:48:00 - [182] Originally by: Lebwohl The idea is not to stop piracy, just nerf a bit the low-sec variety of it. Now it is just too easy for pirate to sit in a station, looking for local, and pick his fights. And even if he picks a wrong fight, he has a station to where to run for repairs etc. Double ROFL. This is different from 0.0 how? Never mind the bazillion POS's. Substitute "0.0 alliance slave" for "pirate". See? "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:59:00 - [183] Originally by: Annaphera I do so enjoy being called a carebear because I'm not terminally stupid enough to regularly go out into lowsec in a mission boat with hundreds of millions in modules so some ganker can get his jollies and his isk by popping me. If that is such a horrible crime then I have to say I'm a carebear, and proud of it, because apparently 'carebear' means 'too smart to give away all the isk I earn to a whining ganker.' As someone else posted, what do you think that happens with the pirates in low sec when they can't find anything to shoot at? I'll give you five choices: a) They stay in low sec bored and docked forever b) They quit the game c) They go pirate to 0.0 d) They go to empire and become carebears e) They go to empire and gank carebears via suicide or decs Which do you think that will give better isks? Hungry animals will follow the scent of food.
kruschev Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:02:00 - [184] whining pirates.. priceless.
crazyiven Brotherhood of Soban	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:11:00 - [185] Edited by: crazyiven on 15/03/2008 18:12:35 I got through the first page... Back in the day we use to be an "anti" pirate corp. And we would hang out in some systems and have a channel that we would broadcast in local. So people would join and let us know where they were. So we were protectors of some systems. Hard to find them corps anymore, at least from what i see.
Cottage Pie Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:21:00 - [186] no clones for negative sec rating players. hardcore enough for you?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:28:00 - [187] Originally by: Cottage Pie no clones for negative sec rating players. hardcore enough for you? In hi-sec, maybe. Why would pirate faction give a damb about a low sec rating? Why would the megacorps care either, if you paid them? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cottage Pie Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:58:00 - [188] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Cottage Pie no clones for negative sec rating players. hardcore enough for you? In hi-sec, maybe. Why would pirate faction give a damb about a low sec rating? Why would the megacorps care either, if you paid them? well it was just a random idea, the gist of what i am thinking is to separate PKers from non PKers by making sec rating do a whole bunch of stuff that in either case makes being positive or negative much more of a commitment and an identity, either way the mechanic for negative sec rating should encourage fewer, but better pvpers. Also the entire gate mechanic is borked, you can just sit on a gate and waste anyone that comes through, making players appear anywhere in a 100km radius of the gate after jump through, or indeed any warp in point (unless warping to a covops/stationary object perhaps?) would really open up lowsec, and make space feel bigger and less campy. Perhaps even remove gates all together and let ships warp from sun to sun with the help of a <insert RP mumbojumbo>. I dunno lowsec could be fantastic and fun, as long as killboard nubs are kept out. Oh and to the OP, why would someone float in a belt mining waiting to get ganked by a killboard nub? people don't play to be sheep, so drop that smug i do pvp mom! attitude and take the pvp to them you gankbear spawncamper.
Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:13:00 - [189] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Annaphera I do so enjoy being called a carebear because I'm not terminally stupid enough to regularly go out into lowsec in a mission boat with hundreds of millions in modules so some ganker can get his jollies and his isk by popping me. If that is such a horrible crime then I have to say I'm a carebear, and proud of it, because apparently 'carebear' means 'too smart to give away all the isk I earn to a whining ganker.' As someone else posted, what do you think that happens with the pirates in low sec when they can't find anything to shoot at? I'll give you five choices: a) They stay in low sec bored and docked forever IF they want to, rather than fight each other, that's fine by me. Originally by: Vanessa Vale b) They quit the game Sad to see a player quit EVE, but then, if they only were here to play gankers, no big loss. Originally by: Vanessa Vale c) They go pirate to 0.0 Valid choice, and I wish them the best of luck against the alliances. Originally by: Vanessa Vale d) They go to empire and become carebears Good for them. Originally by: Vanessa Vale e) They go to empire and gank carebears via suicide or decs Both of these are allowed by the system, both are perfectly valid, and neither is anywhere near as destructive as they are in low sec. War decs cost money, and suicide ganks are slow and not as profitable, and can't be done solo. They also tend to get broken up by Concord and the herds of guards around the gates. Originally by: Vanessa Vale Which do you think that will give better isks? Hungry animals will follow the scent of food. Mission running, obviously, or 0.0 if they join an alliance. Either way, they are working for their isk, not just whining that there are no fat targets for them to gank in low sec and that CCP should force more people into low sec to become targets. What I'm objecting to is the idea that I'm somehow inferior to them and that their playstyle is somehow more valid. Let's see... 'Carebears' make large amounts of isk (10-20 mil an hour isn't unlikely), with the only risk the off chance that they might lose a ship to a bigger rat spawn than they expected. Victims: NPC's. Risk very low, reward fairly high. 'Gankbear' pirates make huge amounts of isk (possibly a billion or more for a few minutes' pewpew if they catch a level 4 mission runner), with the only risk being the off chance that some real PvP'er might be called in by the target and happen to be close enough to do some good before the one-sided fight is over. Victims: Fellow players. Risk nil, reward incredibly high. Judging by the above, not only are the "carebears" accepting greater risk and making less reward, but all the bragging the gankers do about engaging in "PvP" is a load of bull cookies. Who's the real carebear, here? And why should I be so stupid as to volunteer to be on the losing side of a one-sided fight? CCP might as well add a 100% tax to all money made by mission runners and give the proceeds to the pirates - it would have the same effect and be just as fair as forcing mission runners and other high sec dwellers into low sec.
Cyber Blue Cyber Blue Consulting	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:17:00 - [190] I've been walking around outside soaking up some much needed sunlight and thinking a bit. Sadly, I can't stay away from the EvE forums and game for some reason. Anyway, I am considering the idea of the low-sec problem and null-sec problem to some extent, being the ability to easily find prey. Also, some people have mentioned, the ability of prey to not so easily escape. I do not understand, for one thing, why any self-respecting empire would allow their trade/travel lanes to be blockaded by the criminal elements, provided they know they are criminal elements. After a period of time the navy should come in and disperse those scum of the galaxy types. Showing up on the local channel permanetly as soon as you enter a system doesn't seem right to me. Why not make people only show up in local if they are in range of station sensors and gate sensors? I'm also toying with the idea of sensor buoys then that can be deployed by people that only last for a fixed amount of time like probes. Perhaps anti-warp buoys and web buoys. In essence, make the pirate work harder to find and catch their prey. Non-pirates could also use these buoys to detect and hinder the pirates in order to make their escape. I guess I like the idea of setting up a defensive perimeter with deployables for an amount of time. I also like the idea of traps to snare victims. Just some thoughts. Take care everyone. End of line...

Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:31:00 - [191] Originally by: Cyber Blue I do not understand, for one thing, why any self-respecting empire would allow their trade/travel lanes to be blockaded by the criminal elements, provided they know they are criminal elements. After a period of time the navy should come in and disperse those scum of the galaxy types. Take a look at my post above. Low Sec doesn't fit any kind of logic. Honestly I think there is so much of EVE that hasn't been advanced since EVE was first uploaded to a server. Take NPC markets as a small example. Some station down in low sec produces polytextiles cheaply, but hey nobody is going to buy those polytextiles because the risk of transporting them is too great. Thus the station (should) goes out of business. From a business point of view it is completely illogical to spend billions on building a station in an unsecured area. To make it even more illogical you can run a mission where you gotta take out some pirates who are blowing up supply ships and yet if you do the same action to player pirates CONCORD slaps you with a security hit. Go figure that one out. CCP needs to start making EVE make sense. ***
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:14:00 - [192] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Bad idea. Even tweaking the timers you'll end up with either a timer that is too short to kill anything, or huge blobs to put a lot of dps on the victims. Not to mention the neutfest it'll become. Ok, no timer then. Was trying to avoid "spam the button" situations. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Sinnae Takeda State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:41:00 - [193] Edited by: Sinnae Takeda on 15/03/2008 21:42:41 my first post here, ever. let me start by saying i'm a complete newb. let me continue by saying that if i'm understanding the current situation correctly (this is not the first thread about repopulating low sec i've read) and there's no viable way to protect a large trading vessel and create a reasonably sized caravan someone in CCP (more than one person most likely) needs to get fired. really... constant protection missions like this would be so exciting to all involved and such a great school for future pvpers. what a friggin pity.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:50:00 - [194] Originally by: Roy Batty68 I don't really give a crap whether lowsec gets "fixed" in the sense of more targets for pirates. I do have a problem with the risk/reward being as out of wack as it is now. Hisec has been buffed too much in the 2 years I've been playing. And it does relate to the lowsec situation, all the idiocy about people leaving in droves aside. The fun part is that high sec has not been buffed in the last 2 years. Mission rewards have been reduced at least 2 times; Commerce has not changed Mining in high sec has not changed Exploration sites are everywhere and low sec and 0.0 are way better Invention? you can do it anywhere, even if doing it in high sec is easier Production? the few capital ship assembly array have been moved to low sec New ship usable only in high sec? No. But new ships usable only in low sec/0.0: Yes So exactly what was the high sec buff? The change in mineral price? Direct effect of the drone regions in 0.0 Level 5 missions? Only in low sec Salvage? added at the expense of other loot Better scanning for ship? A buff for pirates and 0.0 fighters. Net effect was to reduce targets in low sec simply because people was killed way more often but it was a low sec buff LP store? LP value for empire corporations has gone from 2.000-5.000 isk/LP to 800-1.500 So what is your high sec buff? Cite exactly what you feel was the buff. Originally by: Wensbane Instead of screaming "CCP, there are too many pirates in low-sec, SAVE US", why don't YOU do something about it? The point is that almost no high sec dweller scream "There are too many pirates in low sec CCP do something", they scream "CCP Let it as it stand, they can keep low sec, we keep to our turf" when pirates start scraeming "nerf high sec, move people to us for easy gank".
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:52:00 - [195] Originally by: Sinnae Takeda my first post here, ever. let me start by saying. i'm a complete newb. let me continue by saying that if i'm understanding the current situation correctly (this is not the first thread about repopulating low sec i've read) and there's no viable way to protect a large trading vessel and create a reasonably sized caravan someone in CCP (more than one person most likely) needs to get fired. really... constant protection missions like this would be so exciting to all involved and such a great school for future pvpers. what a friggin pity. Your making the wild assumption that CCP wants LowSec different than it currently is. As is, Empire gank is the word of the day due in part to those Lowsecers coming into Empire. From everything I've seen, this is fine and dandy to the Devs. Also a mistaken assumption that CCP wants Miners and Haulers to have the slightest chance of surviving a PvP encounter of any kind for more than 2 seconds. Hell, they didnt fire a Dev over giving BPO's to his friends (what twice?) so they arent gonna fire over design decisions.
Gamesguy D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:52:00 - [196] Originally by: Sinnae Takeda Edited by: Sinnae Takeda on 15/03/2008 21:42:41 my first post here, ever. let me start by saying i'm a complete newb. let me continue by saying that if i'm understanding the current situation correctly (this is not the first thread about repopulating low sec i've read) and there's no viable way to protect a large trading vessel and create a reasonably sized caravan someone in CCP (more than one person most likely) needs to get fired. really... constant protection missions like this would be so exciting to all involved and such a great school for future pvpers. what a friggin pity. Whoever told you that is lying. Its quite easy to escort a freighter through lowsec.
Doonoo Boonoo Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:55:00 - [197] Originally by: Kyoto Luyi Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo ps Try leaving the hi sec system you have been sat in for the last month before moaning about what you can't do in lo sec eh? pps: I'm an alt, honeypie... You do realise zzz is a whole alliance made up of over 60 R&D corps and we offer a service of 'Safe R&D in Empire'.It took someone(not me ofc.I've only been here a few months)a lot of time and investment to set up this service.We have multiple POSs (which need fueling) that are essential to the service ZZZ provide.Many of our members are likely to fly around with BPOs,TII BPCs,well researched BPs in their cargo holds. We may be very rich and be prepared to pay a ransom or we may be able to defend ourselfs if decced or even hire mercs.We may or may not be worth suicide ganking for the tasty stuff we have in our cargo holds. But seeing as how I never thought about any of the above before I hit 'reply' and I didn't do all the hard work to set ZZZ up I decided to troll other people for the way they play the game and make insulting,derogatary remarks. So feel free to lavish some of the attention on us that my posting deserves. Fixed for truth
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:57:00 - [198] Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. I know it may some self-interested because I am just looking for chumps to deprive of their hard-earned assets, but think about it: Part of what makes MMOs what they are is that they are...well, a little bit real. The fear that pirates inspire in the hearts of noobs and carebears is real, and that is priceless. What other kind of game can inspire real emotion? The fear of a dread pirate, the sorrow of having lost your ship, or even on occasion that sweet sigh of relief after having gotten away (not likely). Do you know what I mean? CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Thank you for your time. Nihilion Saro Too many people like you happened. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Jiax Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.03.15 22:03:00 - [199] Take away the stupid security status penalty. This would boost newbie and wannabe pirates everywhere and get more people to visit low sec for casual pvp. Not everyone has time to run two accounts or overpay carebears to deliver ships and goods to low sec because the game made them a -10 for pvping in pvp areas thus basically denying them half of EVE universe.
Queen Killerz Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.15 22:08:00 - [200] Cant be bother with it We make more in EMPIRE!

Fiorenza Hoppity's Burrow	Posted - 2008.03.15 22:09:00 - [201] The problem is one of cost/benefit. Like many things itÆs just economics in the end. EVE is massively broken when it comes to the cost/benefit balance for pirates and just about everyone else. Pirates take little or no risk, they are simply parasitic on the risks inherent in other peopleÆs play. The set-ups required effectively to run missions, trade/transport, mine, explore or anything else dictate that you are easy meat for any competent pirate. They may not get you this time but they will get you often enough. And yes they may be caught out from time to time but not often û after all there is no real economic incentive to hunt pirates. The result is that a mass of cleverly designed game features go unused or underused because using them is equivalent to putting a target on your back and announcing that you want to spend the next day/week/month recouping your losses. Many of the CCP claims for the joys of EVE are simply empty as a result. You can try and do all those wonderful things but someone will simply swat you when you do. Hence empty lowsec and the huge proportion of people who leave relatively quickly because they canÆt see a way to have fun. The answer is to rebalance the risk/reward. Pirates need to face real risks; they need to earn their ISK. EVE needs to become a little more like real life for people who break the law. And non-lethal professions need to become a little less prone to losing everything you own to a couple of frigates. There are no doubt countless ways to bring about a rebalancing but one method would be for system-generated rewards to be posted, based on security status. The more crime you do, the bigger the reward on your head, paid by the system to the bounty-hunter. But since this kind of bounty can be abused, the reward would actually have to be repaid by the transgressor or their corp. If they adjust their resources so that they canÆt pay, then their abilities/rights are borked in some way until the debt is paid. Set the rewards correctly and suddenly there is a real economic incentive to hunt pirates. The security status hit should be incurred when you attack, not when you manage to destroy something. So if you commence an attack and then chicken out, you still get the status hit and the reward on your head goes up. The size of the status hit (and hence the reward adjustment) should depend on the value of the target û attack a billion ISK target and you get a suitably hefty increase in the reward on your head. And that includes if you are part of a gang û why should the fact that there are 10 of you reduce the penalty? None of this eliminates the possibility of a pirate career if the rewards are properly weighted. You can still make money as a pirate but now you face the same kind of risks as everybody else.
Qolde Scrambled Eggs Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 22:17:00 - [202] The chance based warp thingy is a bad idea in my opinion, unless it only applies to Industrials and Barges. Even then, it should only be 50/50. Any ship that has turrets should remain scrambled at least 95% of the time when scrambled. A lucky <5% chance of getting away wouldn't hurt much at all. The biggest problem is blobs honestly. If you have 5 guys strategically sitting at any lowsec gate in battlecruisers or higher, their chances of locking, scramming, and popping any ship is so great that (most) people just won't go in. It's stupid. If sentries didnt attack frigates, but barbecued tech 2 ships, and anything higher than a cruiser. You'd see some interesting **. A prowler could not only warp away from a solo lowsec gate camp, but could possibly kill his attacker if the pilot were crazy enough to put on a combat fit. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sinnae Takeda State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 22:34:00 - [203] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Sinnae Takeda Edited by: Sinnae Takeda on 15/03/2008 21:42:41 my first post here, ever. let me start by saying i'm a complete newb. let me continue by saying that if i'm understanding the current situation correctly (this is not the first thread about repopulating low sec i've read) and there's no viable way to protect a large trading vessel and create a reasonably sized caravan someone in CCP (more than one person most likely) needs to get fired. really... constant protection missions like this would be so exciting to all involved and such a great school for future pvpers. what a friggin pity. Whoever told you that is lying. Its quite easy to escort a freighter through lowsec. how do you go about neutralizing the huge tactical advantage of the pilots preparing the gatecamps? how do you protect the fragile freighters? i was left with the impression that an attacked freighter is a dead freighter. and, most importantly, why do 90% of the people seem to think that escorting is not viable? is it because they're greedy and prefer smaller profit all for themselves? is it ultimately simply not worth it to drag a small fleet along? i'm confused
Zey Nadar Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem	Posted - 2008.03.16 00:11:00 - [204] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 16/03/2008 00:12:38 Originally by: Thenoran Low-sec is not worth mining except through High-sec exploration due to the current price of Nocxium, which dominates the low-sec ores (Jaspet, Hemorphite, Hedbergite) This, lowsec is simply not worth mining in. CCP should buff zydrine and megacyte amounts in lowsec ore, OR make hidden belts easier to find. Thats my opinion. Other things to do in lowsec notwithstanding.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.16 00:25:00 - [205] Quote: how do you go about neutralizing the huge tactical advantage of the pilots preparing the gatecamps? how do you protect the fragile freighters? i was left with the impression that an attacked freighter is a dead freighter. and, most importantly, why do 90% of the people seem to think that escorting is not viable? is it because they're greedy and prefer smaller profit all for themselves? is it ultimately simply not worth it to drag a small fleet along? Very simple. Freighter goes behind fleet. Fleet jumps into a system. If there's a gatecamp, fleet wtfpwns gatecamp, freighter continues through. Usually it's easier just to scout and avoid that system if it's camped, though.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.16 00:34:00 - [206] Originally by: Fiorenza The problem is one of cost/benefit. Like many things itÆs just economics in the end. EVE is massively broken when it comes to the cost/benefit balance for pirates and just about everyone else. Pirates take little or no risk, I stopped reading there. Look at any person living in low-sec. Now compare it to any low-sec pirate. Who dies more often? Piracy is a risky profession. Gate guns, aggro rules, traps, anti-pirates, other pirates, various blobcorps, etc, make it a risky profession. Originally by: Stupid Noob The answer is to rebalance the risk/reward. Pirates need to face real risks; they need to earn their ISK. EVE needs to become a little more like real life for people who break the law. And non-lethal professions need to become a little less prone to losing everything you own to a couple of frigates. Losing everything you own to a couple of frigates? Excuse me, but if everything you own can be killed by a couple of frigates, you suck. Pirates face very real risks; much bigger risk then a carebear travelling through. At any rate, L4 mission whoring makes at least the same amount if not more ISK without any risk at all. Originally by: Stupid noob Set the rewards correctly and suddenly there is a real economic incentive to hunt pirates. LOL. Well, many people consider the loot a very good incentive ;) Originally by: Stupid noob The security status hit should be incurred when you attack, not when you manage to destroy something. So if you commence an attack and then chicken out, you still get the status hit You do. Learn game mechanics before whining about them. Originally by: Stupid noob None of this eliminates the possibility of a pirate career if the rewards are properly weighted. You can still make money as a pirate but now you face the same kind of risks as everybody else. You already face MORE risks then everyone else. Really, give it a shot ;) I'll say it again. Low-sec is fine. Quit whining. Could it use a bit of love regarding rats/ores? Yeah, maybe. The concept is quite good and it works alright. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tellnan Matkiel Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.16 01:07:00 - [207] Originally by: Roy Batty68 <snip>This has everything to do with rewards being commencerate with the risk involved. An equation that has been more and more broken over time. And the apparent inability of people to face that situation in a mature way rather than crying about their 40lbs of candy being reduced in some way. Fair enough. Though my sense of things - albeit from a new players' perspective - is that any perceived problems with lowsec should still primarily be laid to rest at the players who have made it what it is. The rider to that sentiment is that those players also are in control of any potential solution to the perceived problem. Albeit I realise trying to organise a group of players is probably much like trying to herd dozens of cats :)
Tiodus City of Certitude	Posted - 2008.03.16 10:23:00 - [208] Originally by: Ieu Duin As long as the combat system in EvE favors pirates, as long as gank squad deaths have no consequences to the gankers, low sec systems will be left to the pirates. The fact that you only found pirates in the low sec systems is absolutely hilarious. You guys have fun in your little circle. Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. Good stuff. -Tiodus -------------------- /O\ Can't pvp /O\ --------------------
Angela Toren Toren Shipyards	Posted - 2008.03.16 10:53:00 - [209] Well this is the problem -risk vs reward. There is not significant reward in low sec to warrant anyone going there to rat or mine or mission run. You can make more isk mining veldspar in a 0.9, you can make billions running lv4 missions in highsec and that in my opinion is wrong. The cost of trit and pyr are so good because capital ships require tonnes of the stuff and we are in the capital age where there is demand for such ships. Theres just not enough of a good reason to go to low sec and increase your chanses of getting killed by other players. And you will get killed out there because the pirates are very hungry.
Victor Forge Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.03.16 11:12:00 - [210] If you want more people in low-sec just simply boost the Gateguns and move the pvp out to Asteroid Belts, around stations etc. In 0.0 sec Gatecamp all you want. As it is now when it is possible to tank gateguns there is not big enough difference between 0.0 sec and lowsec, the difference is that the rewards in 0.0 is higher, the danger close to the same for new players. Thus there is no appeal to low-sec, it is high sec or 0.0 sec that counts. Besides untankable gateguns, let the drop in a characters security rating when destroying non-war targets be in propotions to the sec of the system where this took place in. As in full 1.0, no drop in 0.0, 1/10 drop 0.1 sec space etc.

Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.16 12:03:00 - [211] Lowsec sucks hairy dong thats not exaggeration
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.16 12:37:00 - [212] Originally by: Victor Forge If you want more people in low-sec just simply boost the Gateguns and move the pvp out to Asteroid Belts, around stations etc. In 0.0 sec Gatecamp all you want. As it is now when it is possible to tank gateguns there is not big enough difference between 0.0 sec and lowsec, the difference is that the rewards in 0.0 is higher, the danger close to the same for new players. Thus there is no appeal to low-sec, it is high sec or 0.0 sec that counts. Besides untankable gateguns, let the drop in a characters security rating when destroying non-war targets be in propotions to the sec of the system where this took place in. As in full 1.0, no drop in 0.0, 1/10 drop 0.1 sec space etc. There is a point here; with the ability to easily tank gate guns its like there is no CONCORD at all. I thought that was the concept of low-sec: police guard highways through no man's land so trade doesn't get cut. That doesn't quite work when they try to pillow-fight highway robbers. I don't even have a problem with the concept of highway robbery, I just think it would be much cooler/creative if pirates set up between gates with a bubble and ripped you out of a common warp path when you least expect it. . .
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.16 12:57:00 - [213] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 16/03/2008 13:00:11 Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 16/03/2008 12:58:20 Nothing wrong with low sec. Lived there a loooong time. I do most of my eve stuffs there. If you are too scared to go and watch your scanner / overview, then the problem is you, not low sec. Things ive done in low sec many many times. Mined ore Mined gas Exploration Piracy Industry Ratting Hauling Trading WoW is -----> that way. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Daan Sai HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:12:00 - [214] IMHO: There is no defence against a prepared gank gang. If you are fit for anything other than PvP you can at best hope to escape and that is extremely unlikely except in special setups in special places (like a shuttle at a gate). If you are outnumbered then you will lose 9/10 even if PvP fit. If you are mining and a gang finds you, it is all over. Also, the low sec gateway gates with smart bombing gank gangs camping them 23/7 are a big reason not to go in in the first place. Solo low sec is a waste of time really, and if you get organised in a group, most join an alliance in 0.0 and skip the Jaspet... It isn't fear as such, just the all or nothing nature of the lowsec game. You also spend all your time avoiding everyone - a pretty paranoid existence that a lot of people find annoying. Covert Ops exploration may be one option, but even that is not a full time career for most folks - the tedium builds :)
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:16:00 - [215] Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 16/03/2008 13:18:46 Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 16/03/2008 13:16:19 Originally by: Nyabinghi Honestly I think there is so much of EVE that hasn't been advanced since EVE was first uploaded to a server. Take NPC markets as a small example. Some station down in low sec produces polytextiles cheaply, but hey nobody is going to buy those polytextiles because the risk of transporting them is too great. Thus the station (should) goes out of business. From a business point of view it is completely illogical to spend billions on building a station in an unsecured area." This guy has a really good point that is relevant here. The reason I first bought Eve was because I wanted to be a space-trader, filling the fat bellies of huge cargo vessels and delivering imported goods to hot markets from all over the galaxy. But a major portion of the Eve markets, npc produced goods, are a pseudo-market. Prices are not established by true supply and demand because: 1) Prices on NPC goods are reset regularly. - If a station is not getting the goods it needs, it needs to pay more. Low-sec stations must pay a premium in order to get the goods they demand. The more dangerous the system (real player perceived danger, not security rating), the more a station must pay for goods. That means that holoreels can be bought in 1.0 space for low, and sold in a dangerous low-sec system for a huge carebear profit. - Or conversely, perhaps a low-sec station in dangerous space produces long limb roes (makes sense, its an agricultural product and this is rustic hillbilly space) inexpensively, and therefore allowing players to buy them low and sell them at a premium in the urban centers of Eve, like Jita. 2) Demand for NPC goods does not follow any particular logic or lore. For example, busy stations should demand more of most everything.. More long limb roes, more holoreels, more Quaffe. Stations that produce more long limb roes should require more soil and water. Stations that produce more construction blocks, robots, etc should require more electronics parts, or whatever. If they aren't getting the inputs they require, they need to pay more, and thus their outputs should cost more, etc. You know, CCP.. BASIC MARKET FORCES IN THE NPC market. In addition to some of the excellent combat mechanical fixes suggested by others in this thread, fixing NPC markets could also be an important part of the solution for boosting low-sec.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:16:00 - [216] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 16/03/2008 13:25:50 Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 16/03/2008 13:23:48 Originally by: Daan Sai IMHO: There is no defence against a prepared gank gang. If you are fit for anything other than PvP you can at best hope to escape and that is extremely unlikely except in special setups in special places (like a shuttle at a gate). If you are outnumbered then you will lose 9/10 even if PvP fit. If you are mining and a gang finds you, it is all over. Also, the low sec gateway gates with smart bombing gank gangs camping them 23/7 are a big reason not to go in in the first place. Solo low sec is a waste of time really, and if you get organised in a group, most join an alliance in 0.0 and skip the Jaspet... It isn't fear as such, just the all or nothing nature of the lowsec game. You also spend all your time avoiding everyone - a pretty paranoid existence that a lot of people find annoying. Covert Ops exploration may be one option, but even that is not a full time career for most folks - the tedium builds :) IF a gang finds you... Scanner ftw? Jaspet lol yea...thats right im mining jaspet in amamake... I havent lost a ship in low sec outside of purposely seeking pvp in 6 months. If you enter a place where people co-operate to kill you, you need to co-operate to survive, although im just as happy solo in low sec as i am doing corp activities. High sec is for people who want to be safer, the risk in low sec is imo now balanced by the rewards. Alliances in 0.0 carry risks that people don't always associate as risks. Mainly: Tied to a corp which in turn leaves you tied to the will of the alliance. Loss of territory can result from spending time doing your "own" thing. War targets in empire. Losses are greater in 0.0, either due to logistics of refitting and time lost in a system lockdown to give but 2 examples I make more isk, get more pvp and can do more things solo in low sec than either high sec or 0.0. On top of that I can go to 0.0 for whatever I want, with adequate planning/support. Low sec has variety, risk and benefits that the other 2 security bands do not. IMO it is a unique environment that rewards those that fit into topography. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:24:00 - [217] Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Nobody cares what I think so I make stuff up and poAst here to troll as I'm desperate for the attention and need everyone to think I'm hardc0re even though I have nothing to contribute to any of the threads I poAst in. There - now it's really fixed for truth... /bored now /hat /coat /next -- The views or opinions I express are solely my own and do not reflect those of my Corporation or Alliance.. Oh, and I'm NOT allowed in CAOD either :)
Janisa Sawara State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:55:00 - [218] Originally by: Nihilion Saro Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 16/03/2008 13:18:46 Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 16/03/2008 13:16:19 Originally by: Nyabinghi Honestly I think there is so much of EVE that hasn't been advanced since EVE was first uploaded to a server. Take NPC markets as a small example. Some station down in low sec produces polytextiles cheaply, but hey nobody is going to buy those polytextiles because the risk of transporting them is too great. Thus the station (should) goes out of business. From a business point of view it is completely illogical to spend billions on building a station in an unsecured area." This guy has a really good point that is relevant here. The reason I first bought Eve was because I wanted to be a space-trader, filling the fat bellies of huge cargo vessels and delivering imported goods to hot markets from all over the galaxy. But a major portion of the Eve markets, npc produced goods, are a pseudo-market. Prices are not established by true supply and demand because: 1) Prices on NPC goods are reset regularly. - If a station is not getting the goods it needs, it needs to pay more. Low-sec stations must pay a premium in order to get the goods they demand. The more dangerous the system (real player perceived danger, not security rating), the more a station must pay for goods. That means that holoreels can be bought in 1.0 space for low, and sold in a dangerous low-sec system for a huge carebear profit. - Or conversely, perhaps a low-sec station in dangerous space produces long limb roes (makes sense, its an agricultural product and this is rustic hillbilly space) inexpensively, and therefore allowing players to buy them low and sell them at a premium in the urban centers of Eve, like Jita. 2) Demand for NPC goods does not follow any particular logic or lore. For example, busy stations should demand more of most everything.. More long limb roes, more holoreels, more Quaffe. Stations that produce more long limb roes should require more soil and water. Stations that produce more construction blocks, robots, etc should require more electronics parts, or whatever. If they aren't getting the inputs they require, they need to pay more, and thus their outputs should cost more, etc. You know, CCP.. BASIC MARKET FORCES IN THE NPC market. In addition to some of the excellent combat mechanical fixes suggested by others in this thread, fixing NPC markets could also be an important part of the solution for boosting low-sec. /signed
Vanessa Vale Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:57:00 - [219] Originally by: Annaphera (missing the point here) Originally by: Vanessa Vale Which do you think that will give better isks? Hungry animals will follow the scent of food. Mission running, obviously, or 0.0 if they join an alliance. Either way, they are working for their isk, not just whining that there are no fat targets for them to gank in low sec and that CCP should force more people into low sec to become targets. What I'm objecting to is the idea that I'm somehow inferior to them and that their playstyle is somehow more valid. Let's see... No. No pirate will go do missions for 10-20/h when they can gank a hauler or a missioning ship in highsec and get hundreds of M per hour. There's a certain type of people who are alergic to isk grind, and suicide ganking has no grind, just patiently waiting at a gate for tasty targets. Grinding = 2nd job. No thanks. So there you go. Originally by: Annaphera 'Gankbear' pirates make huge amounts of isk (possibly a billion or more for a few minutes' pewpew if they catch a level 4 mission runner), with the only risk being the off chance that some real PvP'er might be called in by the target and happen to be close enough to do some good before the one-sided fight is over. Victims: Fellow players. Risk nil, reward incredibly high. Carebears fault. The pirate got hungry, went to empire to kill people there. And you don't need a billion ship to do missions, they are quite doable with T2 gear. Originally by: Annaphera of bull cookies. Who's the real carebear, here? And why should I be so stupid as to volunteer to be on the losing side of a one-sided fight? CCP might as well add a 100% tax to all money made by mission runners and give the proceeds to the pirates - it would have the same effect and be just as fair as forcing mission runners and other high sec dwellers into low sec. Carebears are the real carebears. Pirates in lowsec risk getting ganked by other pirates. It is when you move pirates to empire that the risk for the pirates is lessened; and pirates are moved to empire because there's nothing to eat in lowsec since the carebears no longer go there. If the mountain doesn't come to Muhammad, Muhammad will come to the mountain.
Alex Harumichi Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:19:00 - [220] As others have noted, the problem with low sec is simply that it's "not worth it" for a majority of players. The risks aren't all that far from 0.0, and 0.0 offers vastly better rewards. On the other side of the coin, highsec gives you risk-free (or: extremely low-risk) playing without having to worry about pvp hassles. As an added factor: the advent of HICs has made low-sec even less tempting. Running industrial ops in lowsec is... stupid, now. Before, you could at least stab up a hauler and hope that you don't run into a Lachesis-powered camp. Now, just one ship means extremely high probablity of death for a hauler. So hauling became ridiculously risky, and as a result what little industry existed in lowsec also dried up. Of course, since it's not worth it for the non-pirates, the pirates have no targets. After that, the pirates are either forced to move to 0.0 (which they often don't want to do since they'd get their asses kicked), or stay where they are and whine of forums Give people more reasons to go to lowsec, and the situation should resolve itself slowly.

Alex Harumichi Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:21:00 - [221] Originally by: Cpt Branko Pirates face very real risks That's true. Wish they dropped better loot, though...
Gimpb Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:56:00 - [222] Edited by: Gimpb on 17/03/2008 15:56:34 Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Nihilion Saro CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Problem is to populate low-sec you would have to boost reward over 0.0 reward. Because risk to be in low-sec is often higher than that in 0.0. Well, the risk needs to be balanced with the reward. Right now the rewards are a bit better than high sec but there's a huge risk jump. Many people say they find low sec more dangerous than 0.0, personally I've spent more time in 0.0 and high sec than I have low sec so I can't attest to that, but I don't doubt it. So, one might say the rewards are ok but the risk is just too high. To bring the risk in line with the rewards (between that of high sec and 0.0), low sec would need to be somewhat harder on pirates. Some things that might work could be beefed up sentry guns or a survivable version of concord. Perhaps even a ship condemning system where if you gank someone in low sec you ship gains a condemned by concord flag meaning that it'll always get shot by sentries, would be fair game w/o consequences for anyone, and perhaps would get concorded if you enter high sec. Said flag would have to persist through ship sales of course.
Ieu Duin Star Sabre Industries Dark Taboo	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:06:00 - [223] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Carebear online. Where the dark grimy universe consists on care bears shooting rainbows everywhere and hugging each other and making 4 corps so that they can happily dodge wardecs. Tough-guy Pirate Heaven online. Where only one person a month is allowed to fly a ship outfitted with the latest weaponry and all others must fly unarmed vessels and wait patiently to be slaughtered by the big, tough pirate. Brilliant. Quote: There are no fair fights in EVE. If you're in a fair fight, you planned wrong. -- Agent Li, Caldari, Galactic Defence Consortium, BLACKHAWK FEDERATION
Izzy Lizzy Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:20:00 - [224] Originally by: Ieu Duin You guys have fun in your little circle. Respectable pilots are too busy making ISK. Respectable? If ye can't trust a pirate ye damn well can't trust a merchant either. Quote: The average man will bristle if you say his father was dishonest, but he will brag a little if he discovers that his great-grandfather was a pirate.
CmdoColin	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:35:00 - [225] Personally I only use low sec to travel between empire and 0.0 I'm in an NPC corp, and 0.0 risk reward I can live with. Low sec is too much risk for too little reward. If you wanted me to operate in low sec - the below is what I'd like to see: NPC pirate corp stations in low sec. Atm I head into 0.0, but I think you'd get more players doing LP grinds in low sec. Honestly doesn't bother me personally either way. I do think it would drag more mission runners into low sec thou. Got no problem player pirates using probes to hunt me. Boost the faction drops from NPC's in low sec. Mission running in low-sec I've had a few, but not enough to mitigate risk. Sentry guns. Gate camping to me isn't PvP, it's more about sealing space. A sentry gun tank and pressing f1-f8 on that ibis can't be classed as PvP... Great for 0.0 alliances, but not so great for encouraging people into low sec. Allow people freedom to move in low sec, and they'd be willing to travel in it, and so on. ratting in belts or mining needs "sexing" up in low sec to get people in. Personally don't do that, so absolutely no idea what that needs. Ideally... Faction Warfare - small gangs with PvP set ups being asked to go to low sec would be beautiful. We'd see those what were good at being pirates prosper, and wannabe carebeargankers getting wasted or being perma-camped in a station. Audita et altera pars
AleRiperKilt The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:05:00 - [226] How about a way of making a lowsec system temporarily secure, maybe: - A way to hire concord to patrol a lowsec system, or - A module that gives you concord capabilities (auto-warps you to anybody agressing in the system). In this case you can still be killed if the aggressor flies a big enough ship. These could be tied to the ability of claiming a lowsec system as "protected by corp/alliance" in which case you are charged a gate/docking fee or a tax on bounties, missions. --- 1. Fit wrong stuff to ship 2. Post screenshot in Eve Forums 3. ???? 4. PROFIT!
Cygnus Scott Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:11:00 - [227] I've only gotten to page 5 but I have to say all the posts from Adunh Slavy are chock full of win. Best darn solution to the low sec problem I've seen so far. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Rach NiKunni Royal Enterprise Infinite Innovation	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:28:00 - [228] Well IÆve lived in low-sec most of my EVE life and I think spicing it up wouldnÆt be too hard: A few possible changes: For the pirates and anti-pirates (whatever that is): 1) make it impossible to dock, cloak or activate a gate with a 15 min red flag 2) remove sentry guns from around gates and stations 3) remove sec status losses when podding someone with a bounty. For industry types 4) move defences back inside POS force fields 5) Nerf the effective use of cap fleets in low-sec, perhaps by linking siege duration to sec status of the system. The higher the effective sec status the faster siege fuel is used. This way cap ships will run more risk in places closer to high-sec where more people want their POSÆs. 6) move sentry guns into belts, which is where they are really needed Just moving the sentry guns away from gates and into the belts will tend to channel ôcat-and-mouseö play to planets and gates while miners will be more often left alone, especially from pirates with small ships. This will do two things. First it will draw more miners to low-sec because their risk/reward ratio goes down, and second, pirates who are intent on killing care-bears will have to use much larger ships or to work in gangs, which will increase the risk to those pirates who want the big ransoms. something along those lines might improve low-sec play by quite a bit.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:28:00 - [229] Originally by: Venkul Mul The fun part is that high sec has not been buffed in the last 2 years. Whaaaaat? That was my initial reaction, anyway. Then I thought about it and realized that you're right... but nitpicking. Originally by: Venkul Mul Cite exactly what you feel was the buff. You're right, there really hasn't been specific buffs to hisec isk making, but it has been improved none the less. It is far easier to make isk now than it was 2 years ago. - introduction of rigs = improved mission running ships - HP boost = easier to tank missions at lower SP - new player SP boost = new players into lvl3s 4s much quicker which in turn results in quicker to competition levels for market prices on items sold - LP store proliferated faction gear, CNRs bloody everywhere for example = easier to run missions - LP store gear the same stats as some faction gear = nerf to some faction ratting but reduction in "pimping cost" - change to research agents = effortless isk in datacores - drone regions crashing high ends + rev new ship demand raising low ends did cause some mining weirdness for awhile - invention lowering the cost of living for everyone - "Salvage? added at the expense of other loot" is not being totally forthcoming considering the "other loot" was generally no where near as profitable, so salvage can't be discounted. Yes, hisec vs lowsec the potential profits in lowsec is still better. However, I believe it hasn't scaled well over time. For example something like: 2003 - hs:1.0mil isk/hour ls:1.5mil isk/hour 2004 - hs:1.5mil isk/hour ls:2.0mil isk/hour 2005 - hs:1.7mil isk/hour ls:2.2mil isk/hour 2006 - hs:2.0mil isk/hour ls:2.5mil isk/hour 2007 - hs:2.3mil isk/hour ls:2.8mil isk/hour 2008 - hs:2.5mil isk/hour ls:3.0mil isk/hour What was a 50% increase in 2003 is now just 14% more even though the difference has remained the same. Yes, I pulled those number out of my backside, but it's just to give an example of what I suspect has happened over time to the potential profit difference. So, we know: - It has gotten easier over time to make isk in general - It has gotten cheaper to put together a mission ship thanks to invention (which is also the direct cause of pirating for loot taking a nerf) and LP stores - It has gotten easier to put together an afk perma tank mission ship thanks to rigs and HP boost Suspect: - The ratio of hisec/lowsec reward hasn't scaled well over time And pretty darn sure: - Isk/hour in hisec is better than lowsec all around when Piratous-Interuptous is figured in. All that adds up to any allure that lowsec might have had being much reduced. So, you're right Venkul. Hisec hasn't been buffed specifically. But it has been buffed enough with everything else to overtake what little allure lowsec had at one time. That's my theory anyway. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ogul ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.17 18:07:00 - [230] Originally by: Roy Batty68 - It has gotten cheaper to put together a mission ship thanks to invention (which is also the direct cause of pirating for loot taking a nerf) and LP stores Just want to point out that LP stores have actually reduced the worth of LP and thus the income of said mission runners. --- Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes.

Cygnus Scott Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 18:35:00 - [231] Another solution to increase risk for pirates in low sec would be to have random CONCORD or Faction Naval Patrols show up and increase the safety of the system for a while. I think the best way to do it would be to link the chance to the number of ships/pods destroyed in the past 24 hours and/or number of people with sec status under -3 in the system. Think of it this way: In the American Frontier they had forts that patrolled and controlled a certain area of land. Low sec represents that, where there is some law but not as much as the more civilized lands. So certain areas might be being patrolled and Pirates attacks in the system during that time will cause that patrol to respond just like CONCORD does in high sec destroying the offenders. Should some of the ships in the patrol be destroyed it will call in more forces, though they will not arrive instantaneously. After the pirates are wiped out the patrol then remains in system (but doesn't hang around in one spot like CONCORD) for a certain amount of time (say 1-6 hours) depending on pirate activity or if any got away) then moves on returning the system to its more normal lawless state. If more attacks occur during this time the longer the CONCORD or Empire Fleet patrols stay in system. I think it should be Empire Faction fleets and they should actually pod the Pirates with ratings of -5 to -10 to increase the risk since "carebears" risk not only their ships but their implants as well. This way there is not much of a change to warp disruptor mechanics, and it follows RL a little more as while CONCORD or the Empires might not be able to make that system 99% safe like High sec they can send forces in to clean out the pirates every so often. This increases the risk to pirates since A) they don't really know when and where the long arm of the law will show up B) provides windows of safety for the more PVE minded individual to go do their thing in low sec. C) Doesn't prevent the Pirates from ganking whether the fleet is there or not, the will just have to sucuide in low sec now of the Fleet is around. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Ivy Axisur State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 19:33:00 - [232] Low sec needs more than just better ôstuffö or more profit. It needs a total overhaul to the game mechanics. It needs to be a stepping stone for 0.0 and a final destination for solo players. Low sec should not be a free-for-all, un-regulated PVP zone, but simply an area that encourages more astute game play. The solution: ôChallenge Response PVPö How it works: The pilot wishing to attack sends a PVP challenge message to the other player. The player being challenged has a certain amount of time to respond, say 30 seconds. The message includes a ôYESö or ôNOö and perhaps a randomly selected security code that needs to be entered with response (to avoid macros trained to auto-respond ôNOö). If yes, the itÆs free PVP, if no, there is a Concord response if the attack continues. If the 30 seconds expire without a response, a ôYESö is automatically sent. What this accomplishes: 1.Allows for non-war based, random PVP. 2.Regulated ôgankingö leading to more ôfun-basedö or ôhonor-basedö PVP and easing the transition for players entering the PVP arena for the first time. 3.Allows pirates to pray on those not paying attention, while protecting those actively engaged in other activities who have no wish to fight. This WILL bring more people to lowsec and it will provide the pirate with more targets even if they get a lot of "No"s.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.17 19:45:00 - [233] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 17/03/2008 19:46:50 Originally by: Ivy Axisur Low sec needs more than just better ôstuffö or more profit. It needs a total overhaul to the game mechanics. It needs to be a stepping stone for 0.0 and a final destination for solo players. Low sec should not be a free-for-all, un-regulated PVP zone, but simply an area that encourages more astute game play. The solution: ôChallenge Response PVPö How it works: The pilot wishing to attack sends a PVP challenge message to the other player. The player being challenged has a certain amount of time to respond, say 30 seconds. The message includes a ôYESö or ôNOö and perhaps a randomly selected security code that needs to be entered with response (to avoid macros trained to auto-respond ôNOö). If yes, the itÆs free PVP, if no, there is a Concord response if the attack continues. If the 30 seconds expire without a response, a ôYESö is automatically sent. What this accomplishes: 1.Allows for non-war based, random PVP. 2.Regulated ôgankingö leading to more ôfun-basedö or ôhonor-basedö PVP and easing the transition for players entering the PVP arena for the first time. 3.Allows pirates to pray on those not paying attention, while protecting those actively engaged in other activities who have no wish to fight. This WILL bring more people to lowsec and it will provide the pirate with more targets even if they get a lot of "No"s. ..Consensual PVP? Gtfo. I'd just: -Boost level 5 missions -Maybe make the rats a bit stronger, -Improve the ores. You can do this directly by making them more common or making them provide more stuff...or indirectly, by boosting the mineral requirements to build **** of nocxium and other common lowsec minerals.
Wensbane GeoCorp. Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.03.17 19:56:00 - [234] Originally by: Cygnus Scott Another solution to increase risk for pirates in low sec would be to have random CONCORD or Faction Naval Patrols show up and increase the safety of the system for a while. I think the best way to do it would be to link the chance to the number of ships/pods destroyed in the past 24 hours and/or number of people with sec status under -3 in the system. Excellent idea, makes perfect sense too.
Bridget Mery The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.17 20:04:00 - [235] just wanted to correct the person who suggested that highsec ganking was easy or not directly comparable to grinding... because that's exactly what it is. Sitting on a gate scanning ships for hours on end is grinding, same as ratting and mission running. Also, you have to grind your sec status back up when you're done. I think we can all agree that lowsec sucks. Good luck getting ccp to do anything about it... Pretty much everyone in this thread has put more thought and effort into this problem then ccp's staff.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.17 20:10:00 - [236] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Low sec needs more than just better ôstuffö or more profit. It needs a total overhaul to the game mechanics. It needs to be a stepping stone for 0.0 and a final destination for solo players. I agree on these points Originally by: Ivy Axisur Low sec should not be a free-for-all, un-regulated PVP zone, but simply an area that encourages more astute game play. The solution: ôChallenge Response PVPö Can't agree here. Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work, non-consent PVP is essential to Eve. If things are not consumed, then things are not purchased and built and mined and so forth. What Eve needs is ways to encourage smaller gang activity, solo activity and more people willing to put them selves in riskier environments for longer periods of time. Suppose that you could get five times the numbers of players in a risk environment for five times as long before they blow up. The math puts the overall consumption rate at nearly the same level, just a little less, as currently. There are numerous ways to do this and those threads are all over the place, I'll let them speak for them selves. The trouble with Eve PVP, and this applies to all security levels, is the impossible gank situations, session changes, blobs, paper thin industrial ships, capital overuse, hot drops, etc. Too much of Eve PVP relies on the concept known as "perfect information" and not enough reliance on "imperfect information" (anyone interested can look up these terms as they apply to game theory.) That is what needs fixing. The fact that Eve has non-consent PVP is what makes the game what it is, and it needs to remain. What needs to change is how it is manifest. Originally by: Cygnus Scott I've only gotten to page 5 but I have to say all the posts from Adunh Slavy are chock full of win. Best darn solution to the low sec problem I've seen so far. Thanks. I do happen to be looking for a new job à ;) The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.17 20:13:00 - [237] Hmm. I checked out the ore ISK/m3 calculator on the EVE wiki, and it's sad. At current Oursulaert mineral prices, ONLY Hedbergite has more ISK/m3 than hisec ores...and even that is only 4 greater than Kernite. On the other hand, even low-end 0.0 ores (Dark Ochre, Gneiss) fetch more than double the ISK/m3 Lowsec ores need to be closer to 0.0 ores.
N00byn00blar Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 20:16:00 - [238] Originally by: isdisco3 ... Okay well I thought I'd put this kind of thing to the test. I used to mine in a 0.1 system - not as profitable as high sec mission running (by an order of magnitude), but at least you get some relative peace from all the spam/smack and lag. I decided to go out to another 0.1 to see how I fared, given all this talk of low sec being a no-brainer. Here's how things have turned out so far: (1) I need to meta-game (alts) to move haulers about. (2) Just one "pirate" in local is enough to shut down operations until he's gone - that could be 2 minutes, it could be 2 days. (3) I'm earning less than I would have in high-sec - that's fair enough, this low sec malarky is more fun because it's more dangerous, right? (4) My attention has to be 100% on local - that is, I have to give Eve 100% attention while I'm in space - doing that while doing a relatively dull task is eventually going to make me lose the will to live. To counter that, a simple solution is to get corp mates to help out - you know, guard the mining op. Well, it just isn't worth it - they can all be ratting in 0.0 and make far more cash than I'm going to make here mining mid-range roids. It doesn't make economic or time-sense to guard ops in low sec. Corps have no incentive to lock down and protect low sec systems, to make them safer for people like me to play in. If you are going to do that, you might as well do it in 0.0. Given my experience here, if rewards are cut in high sec, you won't get lots of people heading out to low sec, you'll get less people playing the game. Low sec needs to made safe - by Eve corps and one way to do that is to let them setup Viceroys - or contract out and provide station services, for profit, under auction.
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:12:00 - [239] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work, non-consent PVP is essential to Eve. If things are not consumed, then things are not purchased and built and mined and so forth. What Eve needs is ways to encourage smaller gang activity, solo activity and more people willing to put them selves in riskier environments for longer periods of time. Suppose that you could get five times the numbers of players in a risk environment for five times as long before they blow up. The math puts the overall consumption rate at nearly the same level, just a little less, as currently. There are numerous ways to do this and those threads are all over the place, I'll let them speak for them selves. The trouble with Eve PVP, and this applies to all security levels, is the impossible gank situations, session changes, blobs, paper thin industrial ships, capital overuse, hot drops, etc. Too much of Eve PVP relies on the concept known as "perfect information" and not enough reliance on "imperfect information" (anyone interested can look up these terms as they apply to game theory.) That is what needs fixing. The fact that Eve has non-consent PVP is what makes the game what it is, and it needs to remain. What needs to change is how it is manifest. Thanks. I do happen to be looking for a new job à ;) CCP, hire this guy.
Ivy Axisur State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:13:00 - [240] Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 17/03/2008 23:14:09 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Ivy Axisur Low sec needs more than just better ôstuffö or more profit. It needs a total overhaul to the game mechanics. It needs to be a stepping stone for 0.0 and a final destination for solo players. I agree on these points Originally by: Ivy Axisur Low sec should not be a free-for-all, un-regulated PVP zone, but simply an area that encourages more astute game play. The solution: ôChallenge Response PVPö Can't agree here. Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work, non-consent PVP is essential to Eve. If things are not consumed, then things are not purchased and built and mined and so forth. What Eve needs is ways to encourage smaller gang activity, solo activity and more people willing to put them selves in riskier environments for longer periods of time. Suppose that you could get five times the numbers of players in a risk environment for five times as long before they blow up. The math puts the overall consumption rate at nearly the same level, just a little less, as currently. There are numerous ways to do this and those threads are all over the place, I'll let them speak for them selves. The trouble with Eve PVP, and this applies to all security levels, is the impossible gank situations, session changes, blobs, paper thin industrial ships, capital overuse, hot drops, etc. Too much of Eve PVP relies on the concept known as "perfect information" and not enough reliance on "imperfect information" (anyone interested can look up these terms as they apply to game theory.) That is what needs fixing. The fact that Eve has non-consent PVP is what makes the game what it is, and it needs to remain. What needs to change is how it is manifest. I agree with you in two points: 1.Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work. and 2.non-consent PVP is essential to Eve But I think my idea addresses that. To point 1, I think youÆll have more action in a semi-safe consensual PVP environment than in the current system (in current system a large part of the population wont ever enter lowsec). For point 2, I agree again, but thatÆs what 0.0 is for. I simply would address the security sections as so: 1-.9 û Completely safe non-PVP zone. .8-.5 û Semi-Safe (current system of concord protection) .4-.1 û Challenge Response PVP (still allows for ganking the afk and lazy) Consensual PVP for everyone else. 0.0Pure non-consensual full PVP The problem now is that the environment is too black and white, we need a PVP grey area.

Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:20:00 - [241] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 17/03/2008 23:20:08 Quote: I agree with you in two points: 1.Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work. and 2.non-consent PVP is essential to Eve But I think my idea addresses that. To point 1, I think youÆll have more action in a semi-safe consensual PVP environment than in the current system (in current system a large part of the population wont ever enter lowsec). For point 2, I agree again, but thatÆs what 0.0 is for. I simply would address the security sections as so: 1-.9 û Completely safe non-PVP zone. .8-.5 û Semi-Safe (current system of concord protection) .4-.1 û Challenge Response PVP (still allows for ganking the afk and lazy) Consensual PVP for everyone else. 0.0 Pure non-consensual full PVP The problem now is that the environment is too black and white, we need a PVP grey area. CONCORD does not stop PVP, it provides consequences for PVP. Your idea would STOP PVP. Lowsec already is a "PVP Grey area". No warp bubbles, sentry guns.
Sandor Krejaa InnerVisions Xenotech Celestial Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.18 00:25:00 - [242] Here is an idea for pirates who want to drum up business....take a break...seriously...let people alone for a while in low-sec and let them move out in numbers and get comfy, then 2 or 3 months later, tear into them...I bet you get far juicier targets that way. If you keep the prey on the run constantly they will become over cautious. You need to be proactive and allow the prey to slow down every now and then and think they are 'safe'. Not only does this breed the complacency needed for piracy to thrive, but it also increases the # of available prey (the noobs will in essence, 'breed'). I think pirates are not thinking 'feral'. You need to let the 'herd' recover its numbers, quit 'over hunting' and let noob numbers rise so that you may have very fertile hunting grounds later. As it stands, every noob knows low-sec = "I will get podded over and over and over" so they naturally avoid it...just like a herd of gazelle will not come to the waterhole while the lions are there. So some specific recommendations... back off low-sec gate camps..everyone knows about those, you become way to predictable that way and people can watch the pod kill count on the star map to see if you have been busy in a system and will simply go around you. back off pod killing..your name in bright yellow on the overview spooks the herd along with your crappy sec status. If you refrain from podding, then you dont look so much like a pirate, allowing you to get so much closer to your intended prey. Note I do not say "Dont do those things", just be very selective of when you do such deeds and give the prey a chance to buy their way out. If the prey knows you will simply kill them out of hand, they will avoid you at all costs and no reward will make the risk worth it to them. Of course I describe being a 'smart' predator, you want to cultivate the herd, get it big and fat, then cull it later on. TO use Stargate Atlantis parley, become a 'Wraith' :-)
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 00:35:00 - [243] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Venkul Mul The fun part is that high sec has not been buffed in the last 2 years. Then I thought about it and realized that you're right... but nitpicking. Simply saying the truth. It is easier to make isk everywhere. Quote: Quote: Cite exactly what you feel was the buff. You're right, there really hasn't been specific buffs to hisec isk making, but it has been improved none the less. It is far easier to make isk now than it was 2 years ago. - introduction of rigs = improved mission running ships - HP boost = easier to tank missions at lower SP - new player SP boost = new players into lvl3s 4s much quicker which in turn results in quicker to competition levels for market prices on items sold Simple counters points: - rigs: better damage/resists for pirates, better gate guns tanking, ecc. - HP boost: better gateguns tanking, better survivability if target fight back - new players SP: better tacking alts, new players wanting to pirate have an almost ready character. Quote: - LP store proliferated faction gear, CNRs bloody everywhere for example = easier to run missions - LP store gear the same stats as some faction gear = nerf to some faction ratting but reduction in "pimping cost" - LP store value reduction to about 1/5 of former value. Quote: - change to research agents = effortless isk in datacores Most of the better agents are in low sec. Quote: - drone regions crashing high ends + rev new ship demand raising low ends did cause some mining weirdness for awhile Drone region - 0.0. Quote: - invention lowering the cost of living for everyone It apply everywhere. You are ganking in a T2 ship if you have the skills today. Quote: - "Salvage? added at the expense of other loot" is not being totally forthcoming considering the "other loot" was generally no where near as profitable, so salvage can't be discounted. Not true. You want some thousand units of contaminated lorenz fluid? Some salvage is profitable, not all and it has slowed looting even more than before (so reduced isk/hour) Quote: Yes, hisec vs lowsec the potential profits in lowsec is still better. However, I believe it hasn't scaled well over time. What was a 50% increase in 2003 is now just 14% more even though the difference has remained the same. Yes, I pulled those number out of my backside, but it's just to give an example of what I suspect has happened over time to the potential profit difference. Granted, but it was effect of other changes, not buff to high sec. It is essentially players learning better systems to gain isk and changes in game focusing. In 2003 ratting in a cruiser low sec rats were a rewarding target, today people rat in a BS and only 0.0 rats are a rewarding target even if the bounties are higher than in 2003. Quote: - It has gotten easier over time to make isk in general - It has gotten cheaper to put together a mission ship thanks to invention (which is also the direct cause of pirating for loot taking a nerf) and LP stores - It has gotten easier to put together an afk perma tank mission ship thanks to rigs and HP boost Suspect: - The ratio of hisec/lowsec reward hasn't scaled well over time And pretty darn sure: - Isk/hour in hisec is better than lowsec all around when Piratous-Interuptous is figured in. All that adds up to any allure that lowsec might have had being much reduced. So, you're right Venkul. Hisec hasn't been buffed specifically. But it has been buffed enough with everything else to overtake what little allure lowsec had at one time. That's my theory anyway. The game has been buffed, not high sec, the reaction to that buffing have moved most players in 2 polarized location high sec and 0.0. I am sure that low sec rewards haven't scaled in proportion to high sec or 0.0 but using that as an excuse to nerf high sec as someone want is wrong.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 00:36:00 - [244] Character limit so I continue here.
Cailais VITOC	Posted - 2008.03.18 01:01:00 - [245] Edited by: Cailais on 18/03/2008 01:04:02 Originally by: Adunh Slavy The trouble with Eve PVP, and this applies to all security levels, is the impossible gank situations, session changes, blobs, paper thin industrial ships, capital overuse, hot drops, etc. Too much of Eve PVP relies on the concept known as "perfect information" and not enough reliance on "imperfect information" (anyone interested can look up these terms as they apply to game theory.) That is what needs fixing. The fact that Eve has non-consent PVP is what makes the game what it is, and it needs to remain. What needs to change is how it is manifest. Spot on, and Ive highlighted the key points Adunh's made. In order to attract players into PVP, and Low Sec in general means a need for a shift away from 'reward based' game play in PVE terms. If a player enters a game area with the express intention of conducting 'PVE' activities and then is attacked and forced into PVP battle (and looses) he simply wont return - regardless of the level of reward offered. EVE desperately needs alternatives to the 'gate' system for travel: thus providing the first element of 'imperfect information' ("that guys GOT to come through this gate - theres no other option!"). Local needs to be changed (yeah I know this isnt massively popular) so that there is an element of doubt about who is in a system. Thats the second element of imperfect information. EVE needs true "Merchant" vessels that can fight back - combat miners, what ever you want to call them - give these ships a bit more teeth and a whole lot more defense. Finally Low Sec needs to be thematicaly different - perhaps factionally contested perhaps not - but at least something more than a poor mans .0. (see my sig link if you want to know more) C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 01:14:00 - [246] Originally by: Sandor Krejaa Here is an idea for pirates who want to drum up business....take a break...seriously...let people alone for a while in low-sec and let them move out in numbers and get comfy, then 2 or 3 months later, tear into them...I bet you get far juicier targets that way. Would be a solution but it wouldn't work simply because every day a lot of players decide to "go pirate" as it is cool and easy. Then they came to the forum to complain as it easy enough but it pay little and require a lot of boring work (gatecamping is more boring than mining in my book).
Bullvynne Celestial Pillagers Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.18 01:29:00 - [247] I feel no sympathy for them, none whatsoever. They dont want a fight, they want to murder any helpless target. When we do go hunting them, all those pirates do is /dock and wait. When they're the prey they hide like little girls, so excuse me while I laugh at you wanting CCP to get prey for you. You want some fights? Take you and your chicken $hit gang down a couple of jumps and enter a real PvP zone, see what happens to your concept of PvP when you have no station to dock to, and you are the prey. What dont like that? Then here's your tear about no carebears for you to gank in low-sec.
Praxis1452 The Hoodie Mafia Cosa Nostra.	Posted - 2008.03.18 01:35:00 - [248] Originally by: Bullvynne I feel no sympathy for them, none whatsoever. They dont want a fight, they want to murder any helpless target. When we do go hunting them, all those pirates do is /dock and wait. When they're the prey they hide like little girls, so excuse me while I laugh at you wanting CCP to get prey for you. You want some fights? Take you and your chicken $hit gang down a couple of jumps and enter a real PvP zone, see what happens to your concept of PvP when you have no station to dock to, and you are the prey. What dont like that? Then here's your tear about no carebears for you to gank in low-sec. Piracy is about profit. Is that hard to understand? And no, they probably won't take on a gang twice their size. Pirates also recognize bait pretty easily and will stack the odds in their favor before they engage. So? Deal with it. -------------------------------------------- ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it"
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.18 01:45:00 - [249] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Can't agree here. Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work, non-consent PVP is essential to Eve. If things are not consumed, then things are not purchased and built and mined and so forth. What Eve needs is ways to encourage smaller gang activity, solo activity and more people willing to put them selves in riskier environments for longer periods of time. Perhaps the problem (and hopefully a place to find the solution) with low sec can be found in what is lacking in the larger EVE universe, namely that everything revolves around a military industrial complex. So what if, for a change, we give players something positive to build, to work towards. Let's assume that inhabited planets in Empire space are getting what they need, perhaps "low sec" is still part of the open frontier where goods and services need to be established with stability. So let's give players an opportunity to build that stability in conjunction with the various Corps and Factions. In essence "Factions Wars" without the "Wars". Now of course low sec still being part of the new frontier and only partially developed there are occasions for pirates, bandits, what have you, to exploit the fact that a solid regular police presence hasn't been established yet. The police forces are there, just not in the same capacity as in high sec. So those who assist in the development of low sec can opt to enlist extra protection, their own policing force to make up for what CONCORD cannot provide in full. For example you have a building contract with a Faction in a .4 system. The Faction offers police protection to the extent it can, to make up for what's missing the Faction gives permits for the contractors to enlist private security. This to me seems a far superior way of dealing with low sec and in turn also gives players positive goals to work towards as oppose to just feeding the war machine. ***
MrRookie Dark and Light inc. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 02:30:00 - [250] Problem is that most serious and organised corps will probably be living in 0.0 anyway which leaves low sec most interesting for solo players and mission runners. Low sec should be more simular to 0.0 in both rewards and resources, encuraging not only mission *****s to be there but also miners and ratters etc and organised corps/alliances that don't want to conquer and defend space in 0.0 Bether roids and some BS sapwns (Make high sec less wimpy to compensate). I never really understud cpps definition of sec levels anyway. 1.0 -> 0.5 = wimp frigs, 0.4 -> 0.1 = wimp cruisers, 0.0 = whabam! Multiple BS spawns and other hardcore PVE locations. It should be a bether balance here. Give people a reason to fly arround the belts in low sec. There are complexes conatining BS sized rats in low sec anyway. Also if missionrunners where bether protected from gankers it would deffo be more crowded space Sig removed. Please email us at [email protected] if you would like to know why. -Conuion Meow May I have pink next time plz?

Annaphera The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.03.18 04:49:00 - [251] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Annaphera (missing the point here) Originally by: Vanessa Vale Which do you think that will give better isks? Hungry animals will follow the scent of food. Mission running, obviously, or 0.0 if they join an alliance. Either way, they are working for their isk, not just whining that there are no fat targets for them to gank in low sec and that CCP should force more people into low sec to become targets. What I'm objecting to is the idea that I'm somehow inferior to them and that their playstyle is somehow more valid. Let's see... No. No pirate will go do missions for 10-20/h when they can gank a hauler or a missioning ship in highsec and get hundreds of M per hour. There's a certain type of people who are alergic to isk grind, and suicide ganking has no grind, just patiently waiting at a gate for tasty targets. Grinding = 2nd job. No thanks. Problem - sec status of most pirates is low enough to make this impossible; if they work it up, the very act of camping will drop it again. All told, they can do far less damage trying to high sec gate camp than they can in low sec, where CONCORD isn't showing up to pop them. If this were an option, why aren't all of them already in high sec, rather than whining here? Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Annaphera 'Gankbear' pirates make huge amounts of isk (possibly a billion or more for a few minutes' pewpew if they catch a level 4 mission runner), with the only risk being the off chance that some real PvP'er might be called in by the target and happen to be close enough to do some good before the one-sided fight is over. Victims: Fellow players. Risk nil, reward incredibly high. Carebears fault. The pirate got hungry, went to empire to kill people there. And you don't need a billion ship to do missions, they are quite doable with T2 gear. Oh, so it's our fault there are gate camps, because we won't go to low sec and make sacrifices of ourselves? Get a clue. Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: Annaphera of bull cookies. Who's the real carebear, here? And why should I be so stupid as to volunteer to be on the losing side of a one-sided fight? CCP might as well add a 100% tax to all money made by mission runners and give the proceeds to the pirates - it would have the same effect and be just as fair as forcing mission runners and other high sec dwellers into low sec. Carebears are the real carebears. Pirates in lowsec risk getting ganked by other pirates. It is when you move pirates to empire that the risk for the pirates is lessened; and pirates are moved to empire because there's nothing to eat in lowsec since the carebears no longer go there. If the mountain doesn't come to Muhammad, Muhammad will come to the mountain. 'Pirates' of the type we're discussing never attack each other...they are after the helpless targets, not actual PvP. To fix your statement, GANKBEARS risk getting popped by actual, PvP-loving pirates. However, as most of that breed seem to prefer 0.0 space, it's not a big risk, really. I've seen pirates in high sec - seen massive numbers of Concord and empire guard ships clustered around a gate, 'summoned' by campers' attacks on other ships. Those ships make high sec campers a lot more choosy about their targets, as they can't pop you at their leisure...meaning most of the mission ships are safe, and so are most industrials with a few stabs on them. Not the same situation as low sec at all, it would seem. So...no, threats that all the 'pirates' from low sec will come to high won't motivate anyone to move to low and become a sacrifice. And I'm pretty sure CCP will NEVER force us to. The problem in low sec isn't raising the reward, it's reducing the risk...by giving others the tools to give the 'pirates' the fair fight they don't want.
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.18 15:17:00 - [252] Edited by: isdisco3 on 18/03/2008 15:20:12 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Hmm. I checked out the ore ISK/m3 calculator on the EVE wiki, and it's sad. At current Oursulaert mineral prices, ONLY Hedbergite has more ISK/m3 than hisec ores...and even that is only 4 greater than Kernite. On the other hand, even low-end 0.0 ores (Dark Ochre, Gneiss) fetch more than double the ISK/m3 Lowsec ores need to be closer to 0.0 ores. A classic example indicating that the difference between highsec and lowsec rewards is too minimal to matter. The other being the difference in rat quality already mentioned, with highsec having wimpy frigs, lowsec having wimpy cruisers, and 0.0 having WHAM! 3x bs spawns. Originally by: N00byn00blar (1) I need to meta-game (alts) to move haulers about. (2) Just one "pirate" in local is enough to shut down operations until he's gone - that could be 2 minutes, it could be 2 days. (3) I'm earning less than I would have in high-sec - that's fair enough, this low sec malarky is more fun because it's more dangerous, right? (4) My attention has to be 100% on local - that is, I have to give Eve 100% attention while I'm in space - doing that while doing a relatively dull task is eventually going to make me lose the will to live. 1- not necessarily, by using your map or a friend you could accomplish this. Also, if you fit your hauler correctly, you can avoid many pirates. 2- that's because you're solo and not confident of your ship's capability to fight back, which is related to a point I'll make in a second. 3- You're earning less presumably because you're having to dock up, but also because the reward difference is miniscule between highsec and lowsec, what I am advocating should be changed. 4- Nobody's forcing you to mine :P. I've mined once, for about 4 minutes on an alt, and never done it since. As for your other point that if you have protection, you might as well go to 0.0, that is very true. However its a question of logistics and safety. In 0.0 (depending on the region and the politics thereof) there are fewer stations to dock up in if a meanie comes into local and you might not be allowed access anyway. The alliance claiming that territory might take exception to you being there and attack. You have to deal with bubbles, capital blobs, and politics. In lowsec, with the same guard I would expect you to be safer. You can dock up anywhere, you don't have to worry about whether or not you're "allowed" to be in the area, and there are no bubbles (although some b*stards do enjoy to hotdrop moms all over the place, but we don't want to talk about them). Now I agree that you can make more mining in 0.0, and I'm fine with that - the risks are greater. For the smaller corp who doesn't want to pay to acess a given region or worry about politics, lowsec should be where their action is at. I am advocating that the jump from highsec to lowsec rewards in all their manifestations (mission agent quality, rat bounty, ore quality) should be as dramatic as the difference from lowsec to 0.0.
Vixisti Hammer 0f Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.18 16:17:00 - [253] I've read through most of the posts here and I agree that low sec is being wasted at the moment and needs repopulating to spread the player base out from high sec. Those people saying that players should alter their playing habits to open up low sec are wasting their time. it'll never happen. What needs to be done is a slight altering of game mechanics to make it more worthwhile and easier to go into low sec. I'm not just talking about better rewards here, players need to be able to defend themselves more easily too. Related to this is something that players have been moaning about for ages, the lack of a decent bounty hunter/anti-pirate solution. 1 - Boost gate gun defences in low sec. 2 - Make all negative sec players shootable by other players in low sec. The first point will make it harder to camp gates allowing safer access to low sec areas. Exactly how the gate defences would be changed is up for discussion.(Expect lots of gate camping pirates to whine at this point) Second point, most anti-pirates finish up being negative status themselves in short order - this change makes the profession less punishing and so long as the anti-pirates are willing to do a little bit of sec gaining to start with, they should find it much more of a rewarding profession keeping the scum and villainy in check This will also make it easier to defend yourself in low sec as now it will be possible to initiate combat against less than hardcore pirates with no sec or gate gun penalty. I'm thinking here of escorting duty and also sentry duty on low sec ratting/mining ops etc Not everyone wants to go to 0.0 and be part of the the whole pos warfare, laggy fleet battle, thing. I know loads of 0.0 dwellers who are looking for a change too. Perhaps something like this would provide a little more pvp enjoyment in low sec for non pirates, and would help open up low sec to solo and small corp players a bit more?
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.18 16:42:00 - [254] if you are -5 or below, you are already shootable without penalty by anyone else.
Vixisti Hammer 0f Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.18 16:56:00 - [255] I know, hence my reference to 'ALL' neg standing players.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 17:02:00 - [256] As long as players can make even 1 ISK in high sec, yes, high sec will be very profitable when compared to low sec. That's because low sec is profitless. Period. Suggesting an obliteration to high sec rewards will only exacerbate the problem by escorting players out of Eve. I run missions in low sec and I can tell you that the constant interruptions, probes, and inconveniences do not make it worthwhile at all. I do it mostly for the thrill. And even that sometimes gets boring after having to avoid pirate gank squad after pirate gank squad. Pirates know where the supposed high-paying mission agents are. It's no secret. There's no point in moving. I've done that already a few times. Also, the logistics required in me moving out every time pirates move in is a nightmare. I currently have a low sec mission 3 jumps away (all low sec systems) which I accepted a few days ago and have not yet started it because HIC's have made it next to impossible to move my mission battleship at the times I play. Asking corp mates to escort me when I mission or for every low sec move my battleship makes is profitless, pointless, and ridiculous. Needless to say it's a waste of time for them as well when they themselves can be doing something more profitable or productive. The truth is low sec is not designed for soloing level 4 missions, solo ratting, or solo mining. Battleships have no place in low sec either, unless you're escorted by your own blob and fit for PVP. Mining in low sec is another nightmare. And, this will hurt some of you, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway. Pirates themselsves are destroying low sec. Most pirates welcomed the addition of the HICs into the game. I mean, come on... A module with infinte strength (a la God mode)? Hmmm, could I ask for a WCS with infinte strength? Gate camps and now thanks to Trinity 1.1, station camps, are nothing but spawn point killings. Before you've even had a chance to spawn you're being targetted (Hello Privateers in Jita 4-4 :)). And you can't move five jumps in low sec without encountering a couple of pirates camping the gate for easy kills. The gate sentries are a joke. A serious NPC'er is not meant to survive in low sec. Sooner or later you will get caught. And when you do you will need to do 30 more missions uninterrupted just to recover your losses. Missioning, NPC'ing, and mining ships melt like butter against a PVP fit. Probing for carebears in low sec is becoming a joke, as pirates collect more bookmarks. CCP is giving the pirates more and more tools and designs with which to beat carebears quicker and easier in low sec without adding rewards to compensate. And you wonder why there aren't carebears around to be your pi±ata? Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the piracy and actually it makes the game much more interesting. But it's getting to the point where there's nothing BUT pirates in low sec. Not only that, but now they're slowly creeping in to high sec in the form of no-reason wars, blowing up anything that's auto-piloting in high sec, blowing up anything mining in high sec, etc. Unfortunately, this game is truly a griefer's paradise and I wouldn't recommend it to just anyone. As I said before, there's no such thing as an anti-pirate in this game. There is no real incentive into driving or hunting down pirates other than for a few minutes of fun. And there are no serious consequences to being a pirate. Most pirates circumvent the supposed hardships, such as alts to get around in high sec. Low sec pirates can't even be shot unless they're -5.0 in sec status or lower, though what you mainly see in low sec are "softer" pirates (-4.9+ sec status). In order for low sec to be fixed there would need to be unwanted changes made not just to the carebears, but plenty for the low sec pirates as well. Only then could CCP even consider nerfing high sec into oblivion. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Cassandra Beckinsale Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.03.18 17:08:00 - [257] The solution of all eve society problems, so yet of 0.0 population, is only one. It is totally useless that you try to find any other reason. The main reason 0.0 is unpopulated is because tehre is no criminal activities in eve and no one can deal damage to pirates. The main problem is not the fact that pirates roam in 0.0 sectors and kill anything, or that gate campers are everywhere and kill anyone just for fun. Non consensual pvp is perfect. The problem is that no one can retaliate, so pirates feel free to do anything. Hunting pirates by players is pratically impossible, and the effort it need do not justify the damage a pirate have to sustain. The general feeling of a PIRATE have to be: "I have to do this for survive, but I am forced to hide!" In eve the general feeling of a pirate is:"I do this for fun because no one can harm me or retaliate". If CCP want players in 0.0, tyhey have to give to "carebears" a true method to hunt and kill pirates menance, aka: if you want to be a pirate, it is ok, but you will be trated like this. So, for example: 1. No insurance for pirates. 2. Security Status hits also in 0.0 if you are not at war. 3. Big security status hit (if you do a massacre you cannot be forgived) 4. Permanent security status penalty (After you have loss a total of -10 of security status, even in more hits, you will be fixed at -10.0 forever). 5. No access to regular market. 6. Every character that make a trade or give money to or get his ship can robbed by a pirate have a change to get a big security status penalty (may be modified by a skill, like Contraband). 7. Only 10.000.000 SP or more characters can trade or give money to a pirate (that for avoid alts character trading). 8. Make a corporation security status, that come from the lowest security status rpesent in the corporation. Bad security status coproation get the similar penalties. 9. Make the war declaration system valid: very high prices to declare wars, so if you declare, you will do it for a reason, not for kill for fun, and a war have to end only with the total annihlation of one of the corporations involved. and in the end, create a valid bounty hunting system.
Vixisti Hammer 0f Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.18 17:14:00 - [258] We're talking about low sec ie: 0.4 - 0.1 There's nothing wrong with 0.0 mechanics.
Doonoo Boonoo Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.18 17:31:00 - [259] Originally by: Cassandra Beckinsale Stuff Strange ideas for someone who is the Alt of a Pirate.
N00byn00blar Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 18:00:00 - [260] Edited by: N00byn00blar on 18/03/2008 17:59:59 Originally by: Exlegion As long as players can make even 1 ISK in high sec, yes, high sec will be very profitable when compared to low sec. That's because low sec is profitless. Period. Suggesting an obliteration to high sec rewards will only exacerbate the problem by escorting players out of Eve. I run missions in low sec and I can tell you that the constant interruptions, probes, and inconveniences do not make it worthwhile at all. I do it mostly for the thrill. And even that sometimes gets boring after having to avoid pirate gank squad after pirate gank squad. Pirates know where the supposed high-paying mission agents are. It's no secret. ..... What this guy said. I mean This. Absolutely, 100% this (all of it, not just my quote). I'm in low sec and spend more of my time docked waiting for the ADHD crowd to leave than I do out earning.

Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.18 18:53:00 - [261] I wish CCP would add BS rats to -0.4 and bellow so I have something to do with my alts in between killing stupid, impatient idiots who don't use scouts. /makes fart noise
Senghir Deep Space Security	Posted - 2008.03.18 19:01:00 - [262] Originally by: N00byn00blar Edited by: N00byn00blar on 18/03/2008 17:59:59 Originally by: Exlegion As long as players can make even 1 ISK in high sec, yes, high sec will be very profitable when compared to low sec. That's because low sec is profitless. Period. Suggesting an obliteration to high sec rewards will only exacerbate the problem by escorting players out of Eve. I run missions in low sec and I can tell you that the constant interruptions, probes, and inconveniences do not make it worthwhile at all. I do it mostly for the thrill. And even that sometimes gets boring after having to avoid pirate gank squad after pirate gank squad. Pirates know where the supposed high-paying mission agents are. It's no secret. ..... What this guy said. I mean This. Absolutely, 100% this (all of it, not just my quote). I'm in low sec and spend more of my time docked waiting for the ADHD crowd to leave than I do out earning. Yup. Exactly my feelings. I posted something just like this but got flamed by the same ADHD crowd. Like I said before, I'm not here to stroke someone's epeen. I'm not a carebear, in that I dont give a **** about the whining pirates who aren't getting to gank me in low sec.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.18 19:36:00 - [263] Edited by: Exlegion on 18/03/2008 19:43:15 Originally by: Alowishus I wish CCP would add BS rats to -0.4 and bellow so I have something to do with my alts in between killing stupid, impatient idiots who don't use scouts. Nevermind... I'd just be wasting both our times anyway. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.18 19:53:00 - [264] Edited by: Alowishus on 18/03/2008 19:54:40 I already saw your whine. No sense editing it out. Once again, a long winded commentary on lowsec by someone who hasn't spent an appreciable amount of time in lowsec. Thank you. 1) Lowsec is not deserted. Even if I were to personally train every carebear how to travel through lowsec in safety- write a 300 page manual on it- the stupid impatient ones who don't realize it's their responsibility to prevent their suffering who already come here will still come here. Trust me, while probing out entire populations of lowsec mission runners would be a hoot for awhile, from an ISK making perspective idiots who transport cap ship BPOs in Punishers who get smartbombed are much preferred. And they're already here no matter what CCP may do to "fix" lowsec. 2) There are anti-pirates. Sometimes they're us. We see fleets of other pirates and non-pirates moving through lowsec daily looking for a fight. Their reward is the same as ours: loot and PvP. If they need extra incentive to come to lowsec then I demand extra incentive as well. 3) Eve is what you make of it. It's a PvP game. I constantly see people who have no interest in PvP saying Eve is griefers paradise. How ironic. Maybe if you had an interest in PvP, or took ingame steps to avoid it- rather than simply having a metagame stance of "not desiring PvP"- you wouldn't be such an easy target? I'm not saying that you should abandon all industry (or carebearing if you will) to take on "griefers" head on but a little effort on your part goes a long damn way. 4) I want to know why me and my alts are perfectly capable of traveling through and in and out of lowsec, as well as conducting business here, despite the "24/7 camps at every gate." Pirates don't play nice together, there are no intel channels, so why in the world would I be able to do whatever I want in lowsec and take minimal losses? Merely having a char who is a pirate does not give me immunity to the perils of lowsec so how is it that I, and especially my carebear alts, can survive here? Could it be that I am careful and do what I am supposed to do? There is this impression that if you go to lowsec you die instantly. The truth is that if you go to lowsec and die instantly, you're a moron. /makes fart noise
Kolwrath Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:07:00 - [265] Originally by: Nihilion Saro Originally by: Adunh Slavy Eve needs to have ships explode for the economy to work, non-consent PVP is essential to Eve. If things are not consumed, then things are not purchased and built and mined and so forth. What Eve needs is ways to encourage smaller gang activity, solo activity and more people willing to put them selves in riskier environments for longer periods of time. Suppose that you could get five times the numbers of players in a risk environment for five times as long before they blow up. The math puts the overall consumption rate at nearly the same level, just a little less, as currently. There are numerous ways to do this and those threads are all over the place, I'll let them speak for them selves. The trouble with Eve PVP, and this applies to all security levels, is the impossible gank situations, session changes, blobs, paper thin industrial ships, capital overuse, hot drops, etc. Too much of Eve PVP relies on the concept known as "perfect information" and not enough reliance on "imperfect information" (anyone interested can look up these terms as they apply to game theory.) That is what needs fixing. The fact that Eve has non-consent PVP is what makes the game what it is, and it needs to remain. What needs to change is how it is manifest. Thanks. I do happen to be looking for a new job à ;) CCP, hire this guy. Yeah wow. CCP read this guys post. He's got it down pat. Instead of: "If I mine in lowsec I will be ganked". its: "If I mine in lowsec I might be ganked". Originally by: Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
Ivy Axisur State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:49:00 - [266] The vast majority of gamers are not hardcore PVPers. ESPECAILLY in Eve where the average age is higher than youÆd find in XBOX Live or whatever. CCP and the players need to accept this if we're ever going to see major expansion of Eve's player base. No matter what you put in low sec or 0.0, most gamers just donÆt want that sort of game experience.
Juajuara New Hope Enterprises	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:57:00 - [267] Boy, I see a lot of things here that I agree with. My experience in low sec, is very short lived. Literally. A few forays that were successful, but largely, low sec is a place that I avoid. The common thread I am seeing is Risk vs. Reward. Since that is the basis for nearly all decisions, I think this is a healthy discussion to have. If it makes any difference, I agree that there is a problem with Risk vs. Reward, but I don't claim to have enough knowledge of all the game's dynamics to present a complete and unique solution. I will add to the mixing pot, hoping that CCP uses these forums to improve the game, and that you all keep contributing to help formulate the answer! My 0.02 isk is that EVE is regulated by mathematics. All of the interactions, being computer based, are an exercise in modeling and simulation based on the universe conceived by CCP. At each for the "sec" boundaries-null sec, low sec, and high sec-there is a point discontinuity in Concord response and/or universe dynamics. I know this is by design, but I think that decision should be reconsidered to remove the discontinuities making a smooth transition between security levels. For example: Sec 1.0 - 15 sec BBQ time Sec 0.9 - Concord a little slower or weaker than 1.0 Sec 0.8 - Concord a little slower or weaker than 0.9 ... It seems to me that a number of opportunities exist in Low and Null sec that don't exist in high sec, but that the discontinuous implementation of Concord doesn't make the opportunities viable. The above implementation would give CCP additional flexibility in tuning, and I'm sure my recommendation would need a lot of tuning, the risk/reward structure in the entire EVE universe; but is obviously a sweeping change to the dynamics of the game and would have to be implemented carefully and slowly, if at all, to allow pilots to adjust as necessary. What do you think?
Sintho Defenders of Roden	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:00:00 - [268] I have only been playing eve a short time, I started in high sec, and following the best agents for my corp I ended up in low sec. Until recently I have played most of my time in low sec. Someone mentioned something about no battleships, but there are tons of cosmic anomalies. Often when I use the onboard scanner at a belt I will find 3 or 4 anomalies in 1 scan. In one of these I blew up a BS and then 3 more attacked after. The BS had a nice bounty of about 500k isk(this was in a 0.3 system). Also at belts in my area you can find shadow serpents wing leaders with 1 mil plus bounty and nice loot. At another one I actually got blown up by npcs cause 2 of them were warp scrambling me and it took to long to figure out which ones.(that wouldnt happen with the new pictures on the overview) Of course you are still not safe from pirates. I have been pretty lucky in my time in low sec maybe, only having been attacked a few times.(I only attack if attacked even if its blinking red) Often they dont attack me or maybe I warped to fast and they were planning to. I did get probed out and blown up in a mission 1 time. I fly a Myrm and the most recent time when I blew up(to the npcs) I had Hammerhead 2s, and they didnt blow up but before I got my new myrm and went out there someone had stolen only my hammerhead 2s(not sure how easy it is to probe for a wreck). I moved to high sec becasue I couldnt afford new Hammerhead 2 and I needed to make more isk before I will go risk it again. I like the idea someone mentioned about being able to sell kill rights. I think it could help in makeing pirateing more dangerous. Which could make it so more people hunt for the pirates. And maybe make areas safer. Maybe pay a small amount up front or something and then pay full amount when ship is detroyed. It could be a contract. I havent thought to much about it but seems like it would help.(I am not sure though cause still only 1 person would have kill rights and they would have to try to blow the person up alone) Sintho
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:13:00 - [269] Originally by: Ivy Axisur CCP and the players need to accept this if we're ever going to see major expansion of Eve's player base. First off, I've seen Eve go from 5000 players on Sunday to 40,000. I think it's expanded nicely. Secondly you're generalizing like every other carebear tard. PvP and youth are not mutually exclusive things. I can't stand XBox Live or CS because of the constant verbal diarrhea and childishness. Eve, on the contrary, is full of thoughtful intelligent people who are fun to talk to and play the game with. And I only hang out with PvPers. Conversely you should see the things "mature non-PvPers" say to me when I destroy their ship. Disgusting, despicable things. If you left your little bubble you might realize that not are youth and PvP not mutually exclusive, neither is maturity. Once again, a person speaking from their very limited Eve experience about things they have not seen for themselves. Thanks for your evaluation. /makes fart noise
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:23:00 - [270] Originally by: Juajuara Risk vs. Reward. Simply put, this is not the problem. This is the problem for stupid people who do not want to be accountable for their own safety, whatsoever. The problem for intelligent people is actually Time/Effort vs. Reward. If you do lowsec right, there is almost no risk to your ship or pod. That's not the problem. The problem is that it may take hours to get around, or wait out a camp to do a mission that doesn't pay all that much more than a high sec mission. Once there you may be interrupted several times by probers and etc. There are systems virtually devoid of piracy in lowsec but there is no way to guarantee you'll get a mission in one of those systems vs. getting one in a deathtrap, or having to pass through a deathtrap to get there. By the time you're done you've given up your time bonus and thus negated any benefit lowsec missions have over highsec ones and not only that, you could have run 25 highsec missions in the same amount of time- or more. What needs to happen is lowsec missions need to be something entirely different. Not just highsec missions with a bump in LP and ISK. They need to be able to be done quickly, in the system you're already in and without big, slow, expensive ships. I've had some thoughts about this for awhile. It's the only solution because you can bump rewards up by 10x and it still won't be worth the effort when you can just do 10x highsec missions in the same amount of time. /makes fart noise

Alalahe School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:23:00 - [271] Edited by: Alalahe on 19/03/2008 00:25:21 Edited by: Alalahe on 19/03/2008 00:24:15 I think the mistake ccp has made is that they did not make low-sec the gradual introduction into pvp that it should have been. Going from 0.5 to 0.4 is essentually falling off a cliff. The fact that people consider sectors 0.4 to 0.1 as one term - low sec - stresses the flaw. My suggestion is to introduce Concord into low-sec. Consider: Concord has tight security in high sec systems, but once one enters 0.4 they should begin to get stretched thin and should no longer afford to react to limited pvp. As one gets deeper into lawless space, they react even less. Here's a possible table for low-sec Concord: 1.0-0.5 - as per normal 0.4 - ignore frigate and destroyer pvp 0.3 - as 0.4, but also ignore cruisers 0.2 - as per 0.3 but also ignore battlecruisers 0.1 - as per 0.2, but also ignore battleships (only capital ships get Concorded) 0.0 NPC Space - the same as what low-sec space is like now I think this would be just about enough to fix low-sec. It would give carebears a fighting chance when they first expose themselves to low-sec, and reward well-organized pirates.
Carebear Barney Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:44:00 - [272] When CCP maked hunting PvP pirates a viable profession...then you'll see more ppl in low securuty systems. Until then, why go through all the hassle for no reward? Carebear Barney Special Agent, Badge No. C-430-T7 CONCORD Child Protection Division
Jaco Matari Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:51:00 - [273] Originally by: Alowishus Edited by: Alowishus on 18/03/2008 19:54:40 4) I want to know why me and my alts are perfectly capable of traveling through and in and out of lowsec, as well as conducting business here, despite the "24/7 camps at every gate." Pirates don't play nice together, there are no intel channels, so why in the world would I be able to do whatever I want in lowsec and take minimal losses? Merely having a char who is a pirate does not give me immunity to the perils of lowsec so how is it that I, and especially my carebear alts, can survive here? Could it be that I am careful and do what I am supposed to do? There is this impression that if you go to lowsec you die instantly. The truth is that if you go to lowsec and die instantly, you're a moron. /signed for truth Pirates kill other pirates, Pirates kill miners, Pirates kill ratters. In fact pirates kill pretty much anyone they think they have a decent shot against. But there is not a horrible gatecamp death squad waiting to kill you at every turn. ------------------------------------------------- Come to low sec, it's FUN.
Damon DeSade Dark Omen Mercenaries	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:31:00 - [274] I just returned to the game and noticed the change in Low Sec Activity... It needs something to make it more attractive!!! --------------------------------------------- Don't take life so seriously, no one makes it out alive..
N00byn00blar Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.19 13:49:00 - [275] Originally by: Alowishus Edited by: Alowishus on 18/03/2008 19:54:40 I already saw your whine. No sense editing it out. Once again, a long winded commentary on lowsec by someone who hasn't spent an appreciable amount of time in lowsec. Thank you. .... and lots of other stuff. I've lived in low sec most of my Eve career (which is since the game launched). Spent time in high sec, time in 0.0. I do industry/mining/ratting/missions. I don't do PvP unless I think I have a chance of winning, which is rare. Usually I just run if I'm confronted, because it just isn't worth the effort. On one occasion I docked up quickly, refit, launched, went into belt, locked, webbed, scrammed and battered the little bugger with drones unto pod. A small victory. But that was 2 years ago and I was a little annoyed at the time. Other posters are right about low sec. Unless you want to actively confront PvP'ers, you will spend a lot of your time sitting around doing nothing - and the idea that you go there for a greater profit than you'd get from high sec (if that were even so) is completely negated by the fact that everything else takes a lot longer in low sec than it would in high sec, precisely because you have to pay time and attention to avoiding the PvP crowd. For this reason, you might as well be in 0.0 with some alliance than in low sec. btw, I can mine about 6 cans full in low sec of various ores and get around the same amount in total as I'd get from spending that time running missions in high sec and refining the loot (depending on the mission obviously). Why do I do it? Because I like the look of the shiny crystalline roids. That is all ;).
Alowishus mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.19 14:33:00 - [276] Originally by: N00byn00blar Other posters are right about low sec. Unless you want to actively confront PvP'ers, you will spend a lot of your time sitting around doing nothing - and the idea that you go there for a greater profit than you'd get from high sec (if that were even so) is completely negated by the fact that everything else takes a lot longer in low sec than it would in high sec, precisely because you have to pay time and attention to avoiding the PvP crowd. For this reason, you might as well be in 0.0 with some alliance than in low sec. This I agree with entirely. The problem is there are multiple groups of people here all who know there's a problem with lowsec but very few who understand what it is. How can we find a solution if most of the people are ranting on and on without knowing what the problem actually is? The idea that lowsec is a complete deathtrap is one I have issue with. Lowsec is totally survivable. It just takes far too much effort for most people. The other idea that is ridiculous is that "pirate hunter" is not a viable profession. This idea comes from people with no interest in PvP who do not understand the allure of it. Pirate hunting is PvP, which is its own reward. Loot is merely gravy. To say pirate hunting is not a viable profession is like saying any PvP is not a viable profession. Which is probably true for most people. But its beside the point because people like to do it anyway. I've already told you guys how to populate lowsec and it involves an entirely new and different mission system specific to lowsec with certain considerations: 1) The missions should occur within the system they originate. 2) They should be short and focus more on areas other than DPS and tanking (so they can be accomplished in things other than slow expensive ships). 3) They should offer something that highsec missions don't. I'm not talking about an increase in ISK/LP, I'm talking about other benefits that are simply not available in highsec. There is a lot of potential here, I think, for added game content that could be a draw for current players and maybe people who aren't playing yet. The problem I see is that most people either want to nerf highsec missions, which is unrealistic, or bump the ISK/LP of lowsec missions, which simply won't be effective. The solution is not inside the box, it's outside. /makes fart noise
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:01:00 - [277] 281 Responses, 10,000 reads and counting. A dev response?
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.20 01:08:00 - [278] http://gunfleet.org/igb/mining.php Check out the ISK/m3 for lowsec ores compared to high. Tis funny. Not only are lowsec ores not -much- better than hisec...they're not better at all.
isdisco3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.20 15:33:00 - [279] Originally by: Nihilion Saro 281 Responses, 10,000 reads and counting. A dev response? qft The ore thing is a classic example of what we're talking about as a fundamental problem. It is always good to get real numbers to back up our assertions.
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:22:00 - [280] perhaps making one of the minerals required to build ships only avaliable in .4 to .1 like nocx something not avaliable in 0.0 or 1.0 to .5

Esmenet Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:38:00 - [281] Edited by: Esmenet on 21/03/2008 16:39:47 Edited by: Esmenet on 21/03/2008 16:38:50 Originally by: Alowishus The problem for intelligent people is actually Time/Effort vs. Reward. If you do lowsec right, there is almost no risk to your ship or pod. That's not the problem. The problem is that it may take hours to get around, or wait out a camp to do a mission that doesn't pay all that much more than a high sec mission. Once there you may be interrupted several times by probers and etc. There are systems virtually devoid of piracy in lowsec but there is no way to guarantee you'll get a mission in one of those systems vs. getting one in a deathtrap, or having to pass through a deathtrap to get there. By the time you're done you've given up your time bonus and thus negated any benefit lowsec missions have over highsec ones and not only that, you could have run 25 highsec missions in the same amount of time- or more. What needs to happen is lowsec missions need to be something entirely different. Not just highsec missions with a bump in LP and ISK. They need to be able to be done quickly, in the system you're already in and without big, slow, expensive ships. I've had some thoughts about this for awhile. It's the only solution because you can bump rewards up by 10x and it still won't be worth the effort when you can just do 10x highsec missions in the same amount of time. This is exactly the problem. In highsec we have concord to make things relatively safe so when you spend your time grinding isk you know you can spend all of that time actually grinding. Similarly in 0.0 you have a "playerpolice" to protect you. In low sec you have nothing and the time spent avoiding combat negates any benefit of increased moneymaking compared to 0.0 or highsec. For a smart player there is little risk overall anywhere but in lowsec you spend too much time trying to stay safe. So to make the reward/time interesting in lowsec for a sologrinder it should actually be higher than 0.0. My idea is to make lvl 5 missions into difficult highreward missions requireing teamwork only available in low sec(no soloing with capitals, perhaps with deadspace gates that dont let capitals through). Lets say balanced towards 5-man gangs or something similar. By working together as a gang you dont have to worry so much about pirates while grinding isk. Possibly also make the npc rats retarget if the mission is invaded.
Lurana Jade	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:17:00 - [282] Quote: The other idea that is ridiculous is that "pirate hunter" is not a viable profession. Big problem there is the loss of Security Status for thematic and practical reasons (for me). Anyone should be able to attack a -ss target willy-nilly with no ss hit, imo. This should be part and parcel with whatever (if any) changes occur to LowSec.
Lysander Memnos	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:24:00 - [283] There's nothing special about low-sec space except that it's in-between empire and 0.0. Until that changes, there's no reason for most pilots to bother with determining their optimal risk/reward strategy for low-sec. Spawn higher concentration asteroids, make L5 or L6 missions low-sec exclusive, etc... Anything to change that strategy. Or how about flipping the tables, and making pirates determine their optimal risk/reward strategy for high-sec? Make illegal goods much more profitable. Add more pirate missions that are nominally 'legal' and have variable empire standing losses. tl;dr version: Make low-sec more attractive, or give pirates a reason to visit high-sec.
AeonPhoenix Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:51:00 - [284] Edited by: AeonPhoenix on 23/03/2008 18:52:32 Remove a lot of the belts in highsec systems, no system with more then 10 anyway. Change all asteroids to unmineable or hollow rocks, except mix a few veldspar rocks in there for the newbie miners and those who really really want to mine in empire. Plus the fact everyone needs lots of trit anyway. Add some better roids to lowsec, maybe not Arkanor, but some decent rocks like spodumain etc... Would all easily be explainable by fluff and eve news reports. How the highsec resources have been overmined in recent years and are running out, leading some to take action against the miners in a frenzy of criminal activity to try and hold stability etc... :P
Kale Kold V i r u s Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:33:00 - [285] It makes me laugh when i hear the excuses from carebears for not going into lowsec. Especially the hauling one. Just for information: While we pirated in the lowsec systems of Jan and Nalvula over a period of 3/4 months we had over 3,400 kills and we only ever caught 20 transport ships. That's a 1 in 170 chance of getting caught (way lower than 1%) and obviously thats without the carebear using the scanner or a scout. Carebears are their own worst enemies, through and through, because they never ever use the right ship/fitting/tactic or their balls!
Kenshin Woo Caldari Heavy Transport	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:36:00 - [286] Edited by: Kenshin Woo on 23/03/2008 21:37:59 I'd go into lowsec a hell of a lot more if there were a 50/50 chance Concord would drop on my attackers. I'd say that's a fair way of doing business. Let's put your balls to the test for once.
Scoundrelus Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:47:00 - [287] Someone may have already posted this but in CCP's live dev blog they mentioned that they are looking into introducing ways of player policing their own pocket of low sec space like alliance do in low sec. Also this mining capital ship should help put more corps in low sec (that is if it is a low sec and 0.0 ship only).
Lurana Jade State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 22:40:00 - [288] Originally by: AeonPhoenix Edited by: AeonPhoenix on 23/03/2008 18:52:32 Remove a lot of the belts in highsec systems, no system with more then 10 anyway. Change all asteroids to unmineable or hollow rocks, except mix a few veldspar rocks in there for the newbie miners and those who really really want to mine in empire. Plus the fact everyone needs lots of trit anyway. Add some better roids to lowsec, maybe not Arkanor, but some decent rocks like spodumain etc... Would all easily be explainable by fluff and eve news reports. How the highsec resources have been overmined in recent years and are running out, leading some to take action against the miners in a frenzy of criminal activity to try and hold stability etc... :P Do that, and one week later CCP loses 5000 accounts minimum. Everyone else would just join (re-join) a 0.0 Alliance. All the Empire gankers woudl drift back to LowSec. LowSec would still be ********. Your an idiot.
Lurana Jade State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.23 22:48:00 - [289] Edited by: Lurana Jade on 23/03/2008 22:54:35 Originally by: Kale Kold It makes me laugh when i hear the excuses from carebears for not going into lowsec. Especially the hauling one. Just for information: While we pirated in the lowsec systems of Jan and Nalvula over a period of 3/4 months we had over 3,400 kills and we only ever caught 20 transport ships. That's a 1 in 170 chance of getting caught (way lower than 1%) and obviously thats without the carebear using the scanner or a scout. Carebears are their own worst enemies, through and through, because they never ever use the right ship/fitting/tactic or their balls! Heh, E-P33n much? Why bother hauling through LowSec? Everyone has a Dread or Carrier pal who can haul better and faster. You don't know balls till you've actually tried to mine and make a decent isk/hour in a hostile system with a paper thin, slow miner and no friends around. Quote: While we pirated in the lowsec systems of Jan and Nalvula over a period of 3/4 months we had over 3,400 kills and we only ever caught 20 transport ships Shuttles and n00bs ships shouldnt be counted, and if you missed a lot of transports, then frankly your tactics or tacklers suck. BTW how many were miners?
Pithecanthropus Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:25:00 - [290] As of now, low sec is a pain and it's much worse than 0.0. First of all... you can't find **** for a good moon harvest in low sec. Dirty wannabe pirates actually think camping a gate and ganking is still fun. (whatever! LOL) Bottom line, the only people you'll get in low sec are pirates, and if you want a lame gank on a miner or ratter in low sec... good luck... cuz they're all out in 0.0. Its just too damn easy for people to gank... they don't have the means to protect and counter attacks like in 0.0. Thus, if you wanna be a wannabe pirate... go to low sec where you can find nubs who get attacked until they realize they can make just as much in Empire, or more out in 0.0 (both much safer than low sec). If you wanna fix low sec... as in a wannabe CCP dev actually trying to make this game better... then provide EVERYTHING that can be found in 0.0 space... and let us mine moons in Empire that yield the crap we now get in low sec.

Fiorenza Hoppity's Burrow	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:50:00 - [291] Originally by: Kale Kold While we pirated in the lowsec systems of Jan and Nalvula over a period of 3/4 months we had over 3,400 kills and we only ever caught 20 transport ships. That's a 1 in 170 chance of getting caught (way lower than 1%) and obviously thats without the carebear using the scanner or a scout. Clearly one of the problems of discussing things with some pirates is that they can't do simple maths. The fact that you caught 20 transport ships out of 3400 kills does not mean that a transport ship has a 1 in 170 chance of being caught. It only means that you have a 1 in 170 chance of catching one. For all we know, those 20 transports were the only ones that passed though your area and you caught 100% of them.
Maaku Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.03.23 23:58:00 - [292] Originally by: Alowishus I've already told you guys how to populate lowsec and it involves an entirely new and different mission system specific to lowsec with certain considerations: 1) The missions should occur within the system they originate. 2) They should be short and focus more on areas other than DPS and tanking (so they can be accomplished in things other than slow expensive ships). 3) They should offer something that highsec missions don't. I'm not talking about an increase in ISK/LP, I'm talking about other benefits that are simply not available in highsec. There is a lot of potential here, I think, for added game content that could be a draw for current players and maybe people who aren't playing yet. The problem I see is that most people either want to nerf highsec missions, which is unrealistic, or bump the ISK/LP of lowsec missions, which simply won't be effective. The solution is not inside the box, it's outside. I was thinking along the same sorts of lines. Some other basic principles: 1) Lowsec missionrunning should be more "nimble" than highsec missionrunning; both missionrunning and people attempting to catch missionrunners should involve elements of pursuit rather than chokepoints that can be camped. 2) Both the mission runner and the pirate should interact with the environment on relatively equal terms, thus... 3) Both the mission runner and the pirate should be obligated to fit both for PvP and PvE. Ideas: 1) Lowsec agents can be accessed from space (including accepting and handing in missions). 2) The exploration/probing system would be an excellent foundation for lowsec missionrunning. The missionrunner can be probing for the target, while the pirate can be probing for the missionrunner. 3) Counteragents. "Hey, my man in X corp just told me that some pod pilot had been sent to look for Y. If you hurry you might beat him there. And get what he's looking for, I can use that too." Now it's a race. 4) Bonuses if you face a hostile pod pilot in a mission. If it can be done without being exploitable via collaboration, I could see it where the lowsec missionrunner (if he's good enough) might want to face a hostile pod pilot in a mission. 5) Reduced/eliminated penalties for failing a lowsec mission. You're already risking PvP, having your standings messed up at the same time is a bit much to ask. Done right, this system could be used as a foundation for faction warfare scenarios as well.
Talon Aidian Skill Level Six	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:14:00 - [293] Edited by: Talon Aidian on 24/03/2008 01:17:44 This thread is a great example of players getting what they want and then screaming that it isn't what they want. What did I hear time and again about a year ago or more? How in EVE, players could play the game pretty much any way they wanted, and could develop the parts of the game universe left open almost completely without any interference by the Staff. Players who wanted to be merchants could haul freight, looking for the next great deal across the map. Miners could fit out their hulks and go looking for the motherload. Explorers could scan for unknown complexes, and combatant players could happily participate in any of the wars that are always going on in one corp or another. The PVP crowd gravitated to the nullsec space (which is over half the map, in case you hadn't looked recently), Missioners kept to highsec space, and lowsec remained for those who wanted to risk the hazzards of larger rats and less Concord protection for the greater availability of ore types and bigger payouts for ratting. Now what's happened? In simple terms, too many super alliances. Nullsec space became more and more dominated by alliances where battles involved not squadrons, not fleets, but battleforces of over 300 ships -on each side-. The idea of winning at any cost became the de-facto rule, and smaller alliances that got caught in a sector that interested one of these super alliances pretty much had to form their own super alliance to fight back. This left those PVP players who were either solo or only part of a stand-alone PVP corp without anyone to challenge but alliances that would hit them with overwhelming force anytime the pirates picked a fight. To the pirates, the options were to either stay in 0.0 space and lose most of their fights, or move someplace else. Highsec space was out (can't PVP effectively there), so they moved into lowsec space, hoping to prey on the miners and other PVPs running through there. The problem? The miners and non-pirates looked at the situation (especially the fact that almost no pirate will fight unless they have the very same kind of superiority over their target that they themselves fled from in 0.0 space..meaning superior numbers and firepower on the pirate side at all times), and decided the risk wasn't worth wading into a shark-infested waters. The pirates now had a delema. The only ones they would fight (easy prey only, thank you) was staying in highsec. They could have fought each other, but that might be too dangerous (they might lose). And, they couldn't go back into nullspace without joining one of the super-alliances (which they didn't want to do). So...how to 'fix' the problem? Of course....if they won't come to lowsec of their own free will, then change the game and remove the choice from them. Make them come to lowsec! Then everything would be just fine again (for the pirates). (Ahem). I posted the above to illustrate a simple truth. If you want the freedom to make your way in the game the way you choose, then give that same respect to the other players in the game. Don't seek to change the game to force everyone to play it 'your way'. Still want to 'fix' lowsec? Fine. Then here is the way you do it (imho)... 1) Make 'pirate' an actual selectable attribute. Pirates automatically have a negative secstatus, but do not lose secstatus due to attacking other players. However, the character may never get rid of this negative secstatus (once a pirate, always a pirate). 2) Make 'pirate hunter' an actual selectable attribute. Pirate Hunter pilots may engage Pirate corp ships, or any other ship with a negative secstatus, without secstatus penalty or Concord reprisal. The character may not get rid of this tag once selected, and must maintain a positive secstatus. 3) Have Concord pod any pilot they engage who does not have either of the above tags. This will provide more incentive for people not to take Concord intervention so lightly
Kale Kold V i r u s Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:38:00 - [294] Originally by: Fiorenza Originally by: Kale Kold While we pirated in the lowsec systems of Jan and Nalvula over a period of 3/4 months we had over 3,400 kills and we only ever caught 20 transport ships. That's a 1 in 170 chance of getting caught (way lower than 1%) and obviously thats without the carebear using the scanner or a scout. Clearly one of the problems of discussing things with some pirates is that they can't do simple maths. The fact that you caught 20 transport ships out of 3400 kills does not mean that a transport ship has a 1 in 170 chance of being caught. It only means that you have a 1 in 170 chance of catching one. For all we know, those 20 transports were the only ones that passed though your area and you caught 100% of them. M8, we saw every type of ship come through them systems and we only ever had problems with transports and shuttles. But even advised you carebears rubbish the ships built for transports! lol, please keep using regular industrials then.
Piratejoe 54th Knights Templar THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 15:35:00 - [295] The problem with low sec is Pirates, but not the players themselfs. In EVE Pirates are "Roleplaying" Pirate vs in Empire or the Alliance system theirs a system in place for that style of play. Real pirates were nothing like EVE pirates, Real pirates robbed ships but rarely killed the crew, othewise who would surrender too them? My suggestion is too add NPC Pirate factions in all the low sec systems players could join. Two new features would be added a Extortion option and a Surrender option. Pirates could then demand "Fee" of say 5-10% (Depending on skills) of the ships market Value, this would be divided between the gang and a Pirate would have too be XYZ close too a Mark too demand this Fee. If the Mark Refuses too pay (clicks Refuse when the window pops up)he can and will be attacked by the Player Pirates. The Mark now at anytime can right click a pirate ship and choose too "Surrender". A pop up window will now demand 20-25% his ships (and cargo's?) value too be paid. A Mark/Victom that either surrenders or paid the "Fee" cannot be attacked by the Pirates for say a hour or two, if he is attacked the NPC Pirate enforcers will deal with the rouge pirates same as concord does (His tag is now Yellow too let the other pirates know he has paid already and not too touch him). Of course thiers always the choice of never asking for a "Fee" or accepting surrenders and killing the ship but this would be counter productive because if you kill too many miners/missioners then nobody will come into lowsec. The new lowsec game will be for the Pirates too catch their pray too get easy isk and for their pray too get away if they feel they can. This is a win win for EVE since it flesh's out the Pirate in EVE while at the same time giving a insentive for players too venture into lowsec knowing they wont always be killed but its gonna cost em. Well feel free too call me a noober but I think this can work.
Nihilion Saro Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.25 03:18:00 - [296] Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 25/03/2008 03:27:42 Originally by: Talon Aidian Edited by: Talon Aidian on 24/03/2008 01:17:44 So...how to 'fix' the problem? Of course....if they won't come to lowsec of their own free will, then change the game and remove the choice from them. Make them come to lowsec! Then everything would be just fine again (for the pirates). Who has suggested removing anyone's choice to come to low-sec? Are you so dense that you can't understand the concept of "incentives". People make economic decisions. If low-sec is made more lucrative, some players will decide that the high risk is justified by the potential earnings. Some will become rich, some will find themselves on the wrong end of my 8m skill points in gunnery. That's how it goes. Just like some people invest their RL money in secure investments like government bonds, others invest in high risk startups, hoping that some company could be the next Cisco or Microsoft. If you don't want to go to low-sec, that's okay. There are plenty of lower-yield, but safer opportunities in high-sec. No one is being forced. Gawwd.. I don't know why people can't understand that.
SheriffFruitfly FlyinPenguin Enterprises	Posted - 2008.03.25 04:16:00 - [297] Yah, the problem is risk/reward, but it's more specific than that. Expected value = the sum, over all possible outcomes, of the product (value of the outcome) * (probability of the outcome). In the the case of lo sec excursions, it's explicitly somewhere in the neighborhood of: outcome1: podded value: -1 gazillion probability: ~70% outcome2: successful journey doing whatever value: +10 probability: ~30% (I've taken a few simplifying liberties, which don't affect the gist) So the expectaion of lo sec excursions would be: ((-1 gazillion) * .70) + (+10 * .30) = something close to -1 gazillion The point here isn't the exact numerical values, but rather their relative sizes. In particular, no matter how much you increase the "reward" side of the expectation, it'll never come close to matching the "risk" - unless ccp gets really stupid on the reward value increase (which nobody wants). Therefore basically the only way to incentivize people to take low sec excursions is some combination of lessening the impact of getting ganked on the gankee and lessening the probability of it happening in the first place. But the latter option defeats the whole point from the pirates' POV. So that leaves only lessening the impact of getting ganked on the gankee - i.e. things like easier to replace what was lost or some such thing. But that tends to throw the whole economy out of whack. So it's not at all obvious to me how to satisfy the 3 constraints: (1) Satifsfy the gankers (2) Satisfy the gankees (3) Keep the economy intact Under the status quo, basically (2) and (3) are satisfied, but (1) isn't (that is, nobody's in lo sec to gank). It's easy to satisfy any 2 of these constraints - but getting all 3 at once is ccp's challenge.
Brisco County Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.25 04:16:00 - [298] Low sec miners have been over-fished because every 2 bit PvP'er fancies themself a pirate. It's only natural that no miners would want to go to low sec with swarms of nano'd HACs waiting to gank them. Miners either seek the protection of CONCORD or nullsec alliances, because low-sec corps don't want to bother with protecting their industry. Its like a bunch of old fat guys and frat boys running around a nude beach wondering where all the hot naked chicks are. Of course the women are going to stay at home under such conditions.
Hasak Rain Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 05:09:00 - [299] Originally by: Nihilion Saro Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 25/03/2008 03:27:42 Originally by: Talon Aidian Edited by: Talon Aidian on 24/03/2008 01:17:44 So...how to 'fix' the problem? Of course....if they won't come to lowsec of their own free will, then change the game and remove the choice from them. Make them come to lowsec! Then everything would be just fine again (for the pirates). Who has suggested removing anyone's choice to come to low-sec? Are you so dense that you can't understand the concept of "incentives". People make economic decisions. If low-sec is made more lucrative, some players will decide that the high risk is justified by the potential earnings. Some will become rich, some will find themselves on the wrong end of my 8m skill points in gunnery. That's how it goes. Just like some people invest their RL money in secure investments like government bonds, others invest in high risk startups, hoping that some company could be the next Cisco or Microsoft. If you don't want to go to low-sec, that's okay. There are plenty of lower-yield, but safer opportunities in high-sec. No one is being forced. Gawwd.. I don't know why people can't understand that. Maybe you should learn to read. There have been multiple posts in this threads where the typical idiots suggests that High Sec be nerfed, LvL 4 missions removed from it and Empire asteroids hollowed out and empty so they cannot be mined. I am sure that was what he was referring to. I really hope that isn't what you consider an "incentive." Yes an incentive to cancel a sub maybe. BTW: You only have 8m in Gunnary? Next time you wave your e-peen around, make sure you have a stick worth waving.
Goa Nansen University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 15:01:00 - [300] Roving NPC pirate gangs - random routes and times - attack any player found, industrialist or combat.

Pyroden Vangrave Opinicus Operations Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.25 16:33:00 - [301] Forgive me for not reading every page of the post, so if I'm repeating something that someone else said, I apologize. Though I'm still fairly new to eve, I have found a way to make low-sec profitable for me, which is through exploration. Since I'm doing my exploration in a covert ops, it's nearly impossible for me to loose that ship, and when I come back with a different ship to run the site, be it a miner or a combat/utility ship, the pirates have to work at finding me since I'm not at a predetermined warp spot, ie belt or planet. This makes it fairly easy to avoid getting jumped since as soon as I see someone come into system I just check my directional scanner every now and then for ships and scan probes. My operations are mainly based in low-sec, and one of the things that I love about it is the lack of people that most complain about. I know there are better ways of making isk, but exploration is what I enjoy and I enjoy doing it with less competition, so I'm willing to risk the chance that I might get popped. I don't feel the problem is with low-sec itself, but that most players are happy making isk in a safer location, or just don't understand how to increase there chances of survival enough to make it worth while. It's mainly a matter of if you actually like the risk involved with low-sec or not.
SheriffFruitfly FlyinPenguin Enterprises	Posted - 2008.03.25 19:19:00 - [302] Originally by: Pyroden Vangrave Forgive me for not reading every page of the post, so if I'm repeating something that someone else said, I apologize. Though I'm still fairly new to eve, I have found a way to make low-sec profitable for me, which is through exploration. Grats on getting your site-clearing ship thru the gate camps.
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 19:32:00 - [303] Originally by: SheriffFruitfly Originally by: Pyroden Vangrave Forgive me for not reading every page of the post, so if I'm repeating something that someone else said, I apologize. Though I'm still fairly new to eve, I have found a way to make low-sec profitable for me, which is through exploration. Grats on getting your site-clearing ship thru the gate camps. So long as he is already based in low sec it isn't so hard. The bad point generally are the entry points and the pipes. His problem will be if some pirate notice him hanging around in a area and decide to hunt him. That can eat away a lot of his playtime. Living in low sec isn't so hard, the problem is if you need to move from high to low sec often (i.e. trading) or if you try to do activities that make you a easy target: - mining and - mission running in the hubs with the beast agents. Essentially if you accept to make less isk than in high sec or 0.0 and play less you can live in low sec even if you do mostly PvE.
Dacril	Posted - 2008.04.09 15:50:00 - [304] Originally by: Kale Kold It makes me laugh when i hear the excuses from carebears for not going into lowsec. Especially the hauling one. Just for information: While we pirated in the lowsec systems of Jan and Nalvula over a period of 3/4 months we had over 3,400 kills and we only ever caught 20 transport ships. That's a 1 in 170 chance of getting caught (way lower than 1%) and obviously thats without the carebear using the scanner or a scout. Carebears are their own worst enemies, through and through, because they never ever use the right ship/fitting/tactic or their balls! you dont know how to use numbers. maybe you only caught 1% of haulers only because people know they will get destroyed. furthermore, what makes you think people use more haulers than other ships? your assertion is just silly.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:06:00 - [305] This thread is counter productive low sec is right now still very active, its all location. Its about fun not isk/hr if your that worried about money you either don't like pvp anyways or you'd rather spreadsheet pen-fuk then play online games.
memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:18:00 - [306] Low sec was designed for piracy. Its the connecting systems between player owned space and concord space. If it wasn't designed for piracy then players wouldn't be permitted to kill you, and their actions wouldn't be glorified and rewarded with negative security status.
Firkragg 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:20:00 - [307] I wouldnt mind a ransom interface just to make the whole process a bit easier. Im of two minds though about wether or not this ransom interface acts as some kinda standard agreement (i.e they accept and the pirates forced to release them). I know its nice to have the option to be evil and kill them anyways but its really hard to get people to accept ransoms now days because they assume this will happen.
Koro Kar'Amarr Amarr Black Soul's Rejuvenate	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:40:00 - [308] In game tools for bounty hunting, low sec player policing, short term security status immunity licences for people with positive standing, providing their kills are negative security / have a bounty. Give people the tools to target particularly rampant pirates. The pirates get their egos boosted, since theyre hunted/notorious, they get better combat encounters than the meagre pickings in low sec currently. The hundreds of people that come to eve everyday looking to 'bounty hunt' get skills/tools/options to do so. Pirates under pressure from bounty hunters with tools at their disposal and player police teams = more room in low sec for opportunist mining teams, ratters and whoever else. I think if some real thought was given to attracting people to low sec at the same time giving people some legal right to hunt them (also needs some system to deter just blobbing the poor little pies).. Theres alot of possibilities I think.
Rook Highwind Miners-R-us	Posted - 2008.04.09 22:10:00 - [309] Unfortunately, I can't see a general move towards losec ever taking place, for the simple reason that the reward will never ever be worth the risk, no matter how big that reward is. Think about it; the potential benefits of mining/ratting in losec are increased, so you may get an initial influx of pilots from empire. This would last two days at most, because as soon as many people started going there, all the pirates would go "hey, there's noobs in losec again! Party time!". The [likely] huge influx of pirates would mean that the chances of actually leaving losec with any more money than you took in would drop to nil, since no matter what belt you went to in any system, there'd be pirates no more than five minutes away. That's not greater risk for greater reward, that's suicide. Then all the carebears leave again, and again with the whiny pirates. The only probable solution I have thought of doesn't involve a change to losec, at least not exclusively. Introduce a new kind of rat; one that fights like a player. It employs similar tactics and fits, and fights at varying levels of skill. Introduced to missions, the numbers of rats per grid might have to be reduced somewhat due to the nature of such setups, but it would encourage 'carebears' to fly ships fitted to deal with PvP style aggression all the time. This is the only thing close to a win-win scenario I can come up with. Missioners get an enhanced chance of survival against mission-probing fgs, and thus might be more inclined to venture into losec (were the rewards to be appropriately raised at a later date when everyone was comfortable). Pirates would get more even fights,and more targets, which is what they really want. It's a little tangential, but it might work. I realise that what ~~pirates~~ whiny forum bst*rds want is a myriad of easy targets. Two words: Just No. If you want to pew pew and have lots of shiny things fall to pieces around you while you zoom around taking nary a scratch, do yourselves a favour and go play one of the slightly less realistic WWII flight sims. ______________________________________
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.04.09 22:34:00 - [310] I'm sorry if you never leave high sec your really missing out on a decent game. Part of the fun is the unexpect and risk that comes with it. I said this before CCP needs to watch what they do with high sec or we might just be pushed out of sandbox style game. Already I'm reading blogs of devs about BG style of pvp in 0.0.

Talon Aidian Skill Level Six	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:06:00 - [311] Edited by: Talon Aidian on 10/04/2008 03:07:05 Edited by: Talon Aidian on 10/04/2008 03:06:46 Originally by: Corstaad I'm sorry if you never leave high sec your really missing out on a decent game. Part of the fun is the unexpect and risk that comes with it. Actually, no. Lowsec is all about ambush and gatecamps, while nullsec is all about betrayal, blobgank, and politics. High sec is the only place where there is even a chance EVE can be called 'decent' anymore, and even then, team betrayal scams mean the only way to have a decent game is to reject all other players but yourself and assume everyone else is a lying, homocidal maniac looking to scam you into being their next mark. This is the reality the players of EVE have made the game, and I am really getting tired of people trying to deceive new players into thinking lowsec and 0.0 sec space are anything but meatgrinders where you either must become a slave to a megaalliance, or the one getting rolled under the blob fleets and gatecamps. Maybe some really sick people find that 'decent', but I don't. I've had my experience in lowsec and nullsec, and I wouldn't wish that on any highsec player.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:26:00 - [312] Your tired of a few people really, most people I know from in-game are people that I have killed or been killed by. Really its just a pixel ship payed by pixel money don't get all uptight about it and just have fun. You'll realize all of that if you give something new a chance. I'll repeat there is nothing wrong with low sec its either vets bored with it(happens) or carebears who talk about thing they have no clue about(gatecamps?).
Talon Aidian Skill Level Six	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:39:00 - [313] Edited by: Talon Aidian on 10/04/2008 03:40:26 Originally by: Corstaad Your tired of a few people really, most people I know from in-game are people that I have killed or been killed by. Really its just a pixel ship payed by pixel money don't get all uptight about it and just have fun. You'll realize all of that if you give something new a chance. I'll repeat there is nothing wrong with low sec its either vets bored with it(happens) or carebears who talk about thing they have no clue about(gatecamps?). Your post belies a lack of understanding that people invest a sizable amount of time, real money, and effort into this 'game', and what you call 'just a pixel ship' is another human being. This is the problem alot of PVPers have...they only see the other ship as another AI to be defeated. As for 'giving something new a chance'...I've heard that from other con artists. That aside, I can say from personal experience that your view of 'fun' is not my view. And, as I have said, I've been to 0.0 and lowsec...and seen what you call 'nothing wrong'. Betrayal, lies, dishonorable combat, slurs, inflated ego, and an absolute disdain for any concept of responsibility for one's actions or helping new players. I am simply glad I don't have your lack of morals, and that I am not forced to play alongside you.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.04.10 03:55:00 - [314] Hehe I guess your right you might not be good for low sec I guess . With alittle e-research I found your two kills which are in low sec you blob one BC with 5 BS,2 CS, 3 BC, 1 hac,2 cruisers,1 ceptors, and 1 AF. The other one is very conservative cruiser kill with 3 BS,and 2 BC. Both of those guys are still actively playing the game and having fun. I have no clue who ****ed in your cheerios but get over it.
Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.04.10 07:22:00 - [315] Originally by: Nihilion Saro I recently decided that an honest Eve living wasn't for me and thought I'd try my hand at being a pirate. So I got myself a snazzy cruiser and took to the belts of low-sec empire looking for some roid-lubbers to gank. Lo and behold, I can't find anybody. Nobody ratting or mining in low-sec these days. What happened? It seems like the only people in low-sec are other "pirates", which just end up fighting each other. Can't something be done to give low-sec a boost? Give pilots more incentive to venture out there. I know it may some self-interested because I am just looking for chumps to deprive of their hard-earned assets, but think about it: Part of what makes MMOs what they are is that they are...well, a little bit real. The fear that pirates inspire in the hearts of noobs and carebears is real, and that is priceless. What other kind of game can inspire real emotion? The fear of a dread pirate, the sorrow of having lost your ship, or even on occasion that sweet sigh of relief after having gotten away (not likely). Do you know what I mean? CCP, seriously. The recent upgrades have been great. The graphics engine is awesome. The Apoc sorely needed a purpose and I like what you did with it. But now its time to fix low-sec. Thank you for your time. Nihilion Saro You present a problem and ask for a solution...why not present a solution? This would surely get things rolling faster. ____________________________________________ Originally by: Thargat They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.04.10 07:48:00 - [316] Dear non pirates Don't tell us how to do our jobs also stop putting yarr in your bio you drone region junkies don't even try it
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.10 08:29:00 - [317] Originally by: Corstaad Your tired of a few people really, most people I know from in-game are people that I have killed or been killed by. Really its just a pixel ship payed by pixel money don't get all uptight about it and just have fun. You'll realize all of that if you give something new a chance. I'll repeat there is nothing wrong with low sec its either vets bored with it(happens) or carebears who talk about thing they have no clue about(gatecamps?). Fun concept: the player that are the target of gatecamps don't have a clue about them. It is the same as saying that the people that man the gatecamps have no clue about them as they don't experience them as the target.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.10 09:31:00 - [318] Originally by: isdisco3 stuff I completely agree with whatever you said because I liked the days when EVE peaked with 6000 players online at prime time. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Izo Azlion Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.04.10 09:35:00 - [319] Low-Sec is in need of a boost. No, we dont need some flashy ransom button for 10% of the ships value (Thats a crap amount anyway!) nor do we need Pirate modules, or Pirate whatevers. All low-sec needs to be is more attractive. Give us better NPC's and better asteroids, and more people are going to risk it out there. Make High-sec worse than it is at the moment, because frankly, EVE isnt a PVE game. Come on CCP, 11 pages and multiple threads over the last 2 years. Its time for a little action isnt it? Izo Azlion. ---
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.10 09:47:00 - [320] Originally by: Izo Azlion Low-Sec is in need of a boost. No, we dont need some flashy ransom button for 10% of the ships value (Thats a crap amount anyway!) nor do we need Pirate modules, or Pirate whatevers. All low-sec needs to be is more attractive. Give us better NPC's and better asteroids, and more people are going to risk it out there. Make High-sec worse than it is at the moment, because frankly, EVE isnt a PVE game. Come on CCP, 11 pages and multiple threads over the last 2 years. Its time for a little action isnt it? Why people must alway follow the logic "Boost Me, Nerf the Others" ? Boosting low sec, ok, nefring high sec, why? You suffer so much that some people can have fun doing somethign you are not interested in?

Izo Azlion Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.04.10 10:11:00 - [321] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Izo Azlion Low-Sec is in need of a boost. No, we dont need some flashy ransom button for 10% of the ships value (Thats a crap amount anyway!) nor do we need Pirate modules, or Pirate whatevers. All low-sec needs to be is more attractive. Give us better NPC's and better asteroids, and more people are going to risk it out there. Make High-sec worse than it is at the moment, because frankly, EVE isnt a PVE game. Come on CCP, 11 pages and multiple threads over the last 2 years. Its time for a little action isnt it? Why people must alway follow the logic "Boost Me, Nerf the Others" ? Boosting low sec, ok, nefring high sec, why? You suffer so much that some people can have fun doing somethign you are not interested in? Because if you leave the good ores, good missions all in high sec, why would someone come to low-sec for only slightly more gain at alot more risk? Its exactly how it is now, except theres not as much gain in low-sec. Unless you made Low-Sec significantly better, at which point, Empire would look nerfed anyway. Izo Azlion. ---
Andre Marconius Gallente House Of Troy	Posted - 2008.04.10 10:22:00 - [322] Edited by: Andre Marconius on 10/04/2008 10:22:34 Christ stop MOANING about low-sec. If you dont like it dont go there. I mine, pvp and do missions in low-sec with absolutely no problems and still make enough money to do what I want. I like low-sec because there is hardly anyone there and personally I want it to stay that way.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.04.10 10:24:00 - [323] No no its not true L4 agents of doom have said so.
Izo Azlion Ataraxia.	Posted - 2008.04.10 10:54:00 - [324] Originally by: Andre Marconius Edited by: Andre Marconius on 10/04/2008 10:22:34 Christ stop MOANING about low-sec. If you dont like it dont go there. I mine, pvp and do missions in low-sec with absolutely no problems and still make enough money to do what I want. I like low-sec because there is hardly anyone there and personally I want it to stay that way. Irony. Izo Azlion. ---
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.10 11:11:00 - [325] Originally by: Izo Azlione Because if you leave the good ores, good missions all in high sec, why would someone come to low-sec for only slightly more gain at alot more risk? Its exactly how it is now, except theres not as much gain in low-sec. Unless you made Low-Sec significantly better, at which point, Empire would look nerfed anyway. "The good ores in high sec" .... they are the same they were 2 years ago when I started, the change is the price players are willing to pay for them. No high end minerals from high sec ores (no zydrine, no megacyte). So your problem isn't that high sec has good ores (or you feel that veldspater is a good ore?) but that the high hends value has dropped. "good missions all in high sec", again not true, level 5 are in low sec, level 4 high quality agents are in low sec, pay and LP are increased when the security of the system is lower. Again there is not special higher rewards in high sec, they are all lower. What has changed is that LP are worth less across the board and the chance of getting caugth wile doing a mission increased. "Unless you made Low-Sec significantly better, at which point, Empire would look nerfed anyway." You can have trouble getting it, but it is the way to go. If you simply nerf high sec the net effect is that people will have to grind more to get the resources to go in low sec, most of them will see the game as a constant grind and leave the game before they will enter low sec, the others will be mostly people with a high tollerance for grind and little interest for risk and will not enter low sec. End result, still not increase of presence in low sec.
Vhor Kataar	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:05:00 - [326] "I want to gank someone but noone's there. Something must be done to make people want to get ganked!" Isn't that ... erm... Well the OP is the reason for not going to low-sec. You get "ganked". Meaning "killed without having a chance." You want people in low sec? REMOVE THE GANKERS That would not help the pirates though, would it?
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:09:00 - [327] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/04/2008 12:12:29 Q: "What's wrong with low-sec." A: "Low-sec is fine, stop assuming low-sec is broken." That's all there is to it. To the OP: You need more practice before you start moaning about low-sec. Most of the art of piracy IS finding targets in the first place - low-sec piracy is, I'm sure, very different from 0.0 ops you are used to in Triumvirate. I used to be a low-sec ratter before I got into low-sec piracy, so I try to think "Hm, where would I go?" ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tobias Creed Minmatar Draconian Toymaker Corp	Posted - 2008.04.11 08:13:00 - [328] Edited by: Tobias Creed on 11/04/2008 08:14:01 I have to endorse the earlier proposed solution of no sec status hits on negative sec status targets, as well as a bounty system equal to clone cost. (whoever came up with that, it's brilliant.) Personally, I would make it so that at -.1 sec status, your bounty is 10% of your clone grade, at -.5 50%, and at -1 your full clone cost. I think the solution to lowsec is to make anti-piracy viable. Then the pirates can get their PVP, and the miners and explorers can get their protection. edit: also, my picture just now finally shows up in forums! \o/ ----- CCP has determined that some alliances were gaining an unfair advantage through the ability of their players to log in. They responded by nerfing boot.ini
City Chick	Posted - 2008.04.11 08:20:00 - [329] Edited by: City Chick on 11/04/2008 08:20:52 Low sec needs million isk bs's in the belts, make the reward worth the risk. Why go into low sec when you can run level 3 missions in new caldari without risk for the same reward in npc bounties.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2008.04.11 08:28:00 - [330] Originally by: Brisco County Low sec miners have been over-fished because every 2 bit PvP'er fancies themself a pirate. It's only natural that no miners would want to go to low sec with swarms of nano'd HACs waiting to gank them. Miners either seek the protection of CONCORD or nullsec alliances, because low-sec corps don't want to bother with protecting their industry. Its like a bunch of old fat guys and frat boys running around a nude beach wondering where all the hot naked chicks are. Of course the women are going to stay at home under such conditions. Brilliant assessment, but I REALLY did not need that imagery. -- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.

Pesadel0 Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.11 08:50:00 - [331] Originally by: Izo Azlion Low-Sec is in need of a boost. No, we dont need some flashy ransom button for 10% of the ships value (Thats a crap amount anyway!) nor do we need Pirate modules, or Pirate whatevers. All low-sec needs to be is more attractive. Give us better NPC's and better asteroids, and more people are going to risk it out there. Make High-sec worse than it is at the moment, because frankly, EVE isnt a PVE game. Come on CCP, 11 pages and multiple threads over the last 2 years. Its time for a little action isnt it? I guess CCP just needs to come forward and tell us that this is the low sec they envisioned, personally i don¦t think high sec needs a nerf so that low sec becomes more appealing ,what needs is that low-sec needs something especial. Some guy commed with a new ideia saying that people could conquer stations and all that stuff,that would be a start.Another thing is changing the rats and ore,more BS rats in low sec and better ore,also buffing slittly 0.0 rats. ------------------------------------------------------------------
SiJira	Posted - 2008.04.19 16:31:00 - [332] remember when you first joined the game and you thought 0.0 was this harsh space with low rewards? thats actually losec and 0.0 is space with lots of rewards and not so harsh in the right places Trashed sig, Shark was here
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.19 18:27:00 - [333] Make it possible to sell kill rights to corporations and people will rush into lowsec to get ganked. ;-) EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.04.19 20:00:00 - [334] Why CCP doesn't put 1.8m triple BS spawns in .4 and lower I just don't know. As soon as you enter .4 sec, the risk to your ship is exactly the same as in a -1.0 true security system. IMO it wouldn't hurt a thing to put big time bounty BS spawns in low sec belts. You'd get a higher population of ratters, and players would have options and alternatives to joining 0.0 alliances to make some ISK or improve their sec status. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Mayor Nuisance	Posted - 2008.04.19 20:02:00 - [335] I'm a new player and you wonder why I don't go to low sec - well it's pretty easy - I'm not tremendously rich, I'm lacking skills and most of all I lack experience. If I go to lowsec, chances are pretty high that my ship will be blown up - a risk I can live with as I can easily decide how much I want to spend to enjoy being ganked by a whole gang of more experienced players in better ships. But is it all that funny? I just know that as soon as I enter lowsec, I'll sooner or later be blown up by a capital gate camp or be swarmed by nano-inties I can't hit with my curent skills and the equipment I can afford to lose. Tbh, it occasionally is - right now I feel like spending some cash on an arbi, fit it with some stuff and see how long I could survive and gaining some personal experience in the process - problem is that I'm short of skills and I don't want to lose 24 hours of training to some quick adventure that is doomed from the beginning and over as soon as someone spots me - neither can I afford to lose a full set of +4 implants every day. I occasionally went to lowsec, got killed and I could well live with that - it would just be nice to be able to get back into my main clone within an hour after doing so, so I don't lose a day each time I want to have some masochistic fun in lowsec... That won't solve it all - but clone-jumping whenever I wanted would surely make me enter lowsec more regulary - probably it would imbalance things on the more experienced side of the scale I know nothing about, but the only thing keeping me from spending 50 mill on some ships and get ganked a few times right now is the fact that I can't get back to business for 24 hours from then. All in all it boils down to the fact that there's an imbalance in the predator-prey relationship in lowsec with the current game-mechanics - each time I stick my toe into lowsec, it will be be bitten off by either a swarm of piranhas or a pack of sharks - being able to regrow it instantly would make the experience less annoying, but for now I think I'm better off with letting the predators eat each other due to hunger and boredom...
ZingFreelancer	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:37:00 - [336] This is all quite funny. But consider that people who inhabit low sec space (Pirates) is the one who earn most money on piracy and the low sec space it self. My trip to low sec space ended in a disaster within 5 minutes. I was about to help a mate on a mission, he was running lvl 3's and needed some one to shoot down frigates that was close to him. So right when I warped to him and was about to start doing my job, we got ganged. Nor we wanted any trouble or any ganging, do the mission and be gone. Solution? The corp you working for provide an anti PVP protection? Any way, instead of whine, we should organise our selfs in groups and go gang up on pirates, taking one sector from them at a time. I would rather wish to see a nerf of low sec, the only thing to have there is tiny rats and tons of minerals, some decent missions for people with good standings and thats all. If you really want to do some ratting or profit, you need to go as low as 0.2.
Chillshock	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:15:00 - [337] Going to lowsec is great fun. NOT. Going there to do anything but pvp is like selfdestructing you Ship on every fifth mission. Its not like any nano-vagabond would manage to break a reasonable tanked missionrunner (provided you have SOME explosive resistance) but his three mates warping in while you are scramed shure as hell can. Its not that bad to go ratting in pvp fits and to take some mates and have some fights (ok, usually "pirates" just run as soon as they notice). But it shure as hell is not possible to make a living as a mission-runner or miner. Risk vs reward? Hm, I might think that giving a reward skale equalling to 5 Missions for a fully fitted faction ship would ruin the whole of the economy. Yet that would roughly be what it would take to end up even. So. You end up having a space where people go if they are pirates. And those pirates would like to see non-pirates to have something to pirate. Strangely I would BET MY LAST SHORTS that not one player would like to play the victim for pirate entertainment. NOT ONE! Its probably hard to see, but getting you mission ship and or hauler blown up is not just the loss of a ship, its also humiliating. To every single pirate out there wishing for more victims: Go and earn yourself a CNR and faction fit it and survive in it for a week - exclusively in lowsec. You might end up having tons of fun with your former fellow pirates.
egorkadummy	Posted - 2008.04.25 04:41:00 - [338] I'm on my trial account, and I crossed over into .3 space just to check it out. The experience was pretty damn lame. The rats were pretty close to .5 quality, and there were 3 others in the system, all of them pirates. Me and one of them had a proper one on one bout - I got his inty's shields down to half before getting popped, and then he asked for 5 mil to not pod me. It was hilarious, I was in an alpha clone in a T1 frigate with 6 mil to my name. At that point the other two pirates warped in and ganged up on him before he could finish podding me and I was able to warp out and go home. What I figured out is that there is nothing out there for me at all, even the asteroids looked lame.
Lamic Tarvalla Gallente Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.25 05:21:00 - [339] Who cares that nobody lives in low sec? I'm not seeing a problem with this, I rather enjoy a place in EVE I can roam and be alone or find very few. When I do find someone that wants to fight it's usually some of the best one on one, or small group vs small group fights to be had. The empire dwellers have their mission systems packed with hundreds of pilots, the 0.0 dwellers have there posfare and blobs. Let those that don't want a crowded system or 700 member gangs have low sec. Personally I don't see a problem with a wasteland where nobody lives. That's where I'll be.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.25 05:37:00 - [340] Originally by: Luna Nilaya Exactly. There's no point in going to low-sec since there's nothing valuable there. Nothing to fight over with other players. CCP doesn't seem to realize this and I doubt they are going to say anything in this thread, because they have nothing positive to say about it(the usual CCP way). I'm quoting a goon! Oh noes! But to be honest... it's made it to 12 pages in this thread already and no blue/red marker next to the topic. Go figure. I'm not going to say weather or not lowsec needs more or less of something, I've seen firsthand the effects of over-pirating an area (Ihakana ) and I am no longer an outlaw running around shooting anything that flashes red to me, be it pirates, can thieves or war targets. I love the kind of fights that you can get in lowsec and the lack of pvp I've run into recently forced me into either ratting my sec up or moving to another pocket, which included ratting my sec up since I'm too lazy to move everything with my alt... Oh well, I guess I'll just have to see how much longer I can take the "Wow a forum celebrity in our system" and "You actually play eve and not just post on the forums??!" comments before I get back into lowsec where there aren't 100+ in local and random people hitting me up with convos ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster

techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.25 05:47:00 - [341] After reading some of the other replies in the thread... and knowing my personal opinion of how broken/not broken lowsec is. I've reached the conclusion that: Lowsec is not broken, it's the lack of enthusiasm for PVP that is broken. So what, you don't have 5bil in your wallet... Are you having fun? I have fun shooting people, even when I die while doing it, I have fun. I average less than 100mil in my wallet, I get into lots of stupid fights and engage damn near anything I think I might have half a chance of winning (or just hope for luck and a comedy killmail). Players should get out of the mindset that they need to have XX number of ships and XXX amount of isk in their wallet to have fun PVP'ing. Sure the age old "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" comes to mind, but I do that regularly. If I average less than 100mil in my wallet, do you think I can go buy a new poly rigged Vaga right away? Or will I downgrade and fly a Hurricane? Really... It's peoples mindset that is out of order for flying in lowsec, I can survive just fine in lowsec if I fly smart. But I'll lose ships left and right if I do dumb things (which I'm apt to do). Oh well... I know one more forum post from me won't change peoples aversion to losing their ships. ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.04.25 06:53:00 - [342] Edited by: Amastat on 25/04/2008 06:55:14 I appreciate CCP a lot too, I'm a huge fan of there work. Best MMO for me, I absolutly love EVE - and thumbs up to CCP on the more recent patches and Trinity. But - I do know what you mean by low-sec being barren - I guess the game is old enough now hwere people know what to expect out there, and are not going to try anymore. Why? - people got enough of being blown up by pirates and just don't bother anymore - and in some cases they are just too scared. I disagree when the statement is made that "all the carebears are too scared", but there is a lot of peopled just really freaked out by low-sec and don't bother anymore - but not everyone. Some people have just overtime developed common-sense to not go out there. I'm not a carebear, or a pirate - I've worked equally in both fields, so I wouldn't say I'm one or the other - but I know enough from both sides to ask the question to pirates and carebears alike: "Would you rat to make a living in a place like placid, or Syndicate?" The answer is usually always the same - from either side. Fear is one factor, but common sense is another. It is not common sense to rat/mine in low sec if your a indy with limited combat skills, and experience - in a heavily pirated area. It's not common sense to do such a thing when you could do several other things to create money, that are often times BETTER money, and are lower or almost no-risk. A lot of part-time pirates do the same thing themselves, they pirate there butts off and then go mission in empire to stock up a couple 100 million ISK so they can afford to go PvP for another month or so. The only pirates who every do absolutly nothing but PvP are the ones who are un-natrually good at it. Yes VETO, I'm talking about you guys :) I have great respect for your PvP talent, I hope I can kill more like you guys someday. So good to the point where their losses are next to non-exsistant, and they have a huge profit from their kills. There is a bunch of pirate corps out there like that, and even fewer alliances - but that is only a small fraction of the populus on EVE. OK - to my ultimate point. My point is that there is a mix of fear, and common sense that causes players to keep distance from places like low-sec - and why go to low-sec when you can just make some arrangement with a 0.0 alliance and set up out there? The problem is - there is not enough point. Ok - so let's create more of a point: well, this creates another issue - how? Three ways are to create more juicy reasons for carebears to go into low-sec, make empire less profitable, and make ships and indy equipment more affordable: The issue with option A is that - it's already been tried and done. Exploration is the finest example. Low-sec level 4 agents is another, and the most recent level 5 missions. They all have been put in place in the past 2 years and it has not done anything to help attract carebears into low sec by much. Option B is debatable. There would be a lot of uproar about it, and ever since the period between Revelations-Trinity, CCP has poured a LOT of focus into attracting new players into the game, and making life for rookie pilots easier and more exciting. I don't know what goes on in CCP's planning, and what is on their minds - I can only presume by their actions that they may not make that motion so easily, and there is bound to be numerous consequences if that move was made - it would likely be too complicated for what its worth. Option C I think is the most feasable option. If the costs for mining equipment was reduced considerably, miners may be more willing to go out into low sec. The cost of the loss would be so much more smaller - they may be more willing to revisit the idea of mining out there. Weither it's a scared carebear, or a smart carebear - they all have the same thing in common. It's expensive to repeatidly lose mining bargers and exhumers, therefore low-sec becomes too expensive.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.04.25 07:00:00 - [343] I apologize for the horrible spelling and grammer in the last post, due to the very buggy forums and the reply box - it's not easy :P ____________________ "All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu, the
SiJira	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:31:00 - [344] why change anything? the rewards are bigger than people claim and the risks are also lower if you know where to go Trashed sig, Shark was here
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:49:00 - [345] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 01/05/2008 20:49:14 Amastat makes some good points. The problem is, even if it was safe to mine in loweec, Veldspar is worth more than almost any lowsec ore. Lowsec ores need higher quantities of good minerals, although I think a better idea would be to rework the drone regions so that there's not a massive influx of mid-range minerals (Isogen and nocxium) thus making lowsec ores more profitable. Lowsec mining should be several times more profitable ISK/hour wise than hisec, and 0.0 slightly more profitable than lowsec. Other changes that should be made: -Ratting should be a bit more profitable. I think lowsec should have something unique...maybe keep current bounties, but make the chance for faction loot very high relative to hisec/0.0? -Rework sec status. It's a pretty poor concept at the moment and it means lowsec mining ops can't shoot first without making it difficult to reenter hisec. -Amastat's idea of making mining ships cheaper is a decent one...I think a better one is to give them some protection. Mining barges are massive, they should be able to fit a good tank. Make them align to warp faster universally, and maybe allow retrievers to warp even faster? I don't think giant mining ships should be cheap, but they should be sturdy. Quote: why change anything? the rewards are bigger than people claim and the risks are also lower if you know where to go I am the first to agree that the risks are WAY overstated if you know what you're doing. However, ratting is still a bit less profitable than it should be, and mining is no more profitable than in hisec.. This is wrong.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:22:00 - [346] Heh, a lot of terrible ideas in this thread. Mostly from pirates, I note. The reason people don't go to low sec is because they don't have fun there. The only way to get them to go to low sec is by increasing the fun they have in low sec. Decreasing the fun they have in hi sec won't do anything except possibly make them quit the game. It's certainly not going to increase low sec population. Low sec is a hellhole right now, less rewarding and more dangerous than 0.0. No one in their right minds would move to low sec from empire if they were looking for a profit, they'd skip it and go straight to 0.0.
Aphoticus	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:28:00 - [347] I think the solution is simple, and I find it hard to believe it was never in place to begin with. One can simply say that Jump Gates operate at such a technoligical level (anyone ever fire a weapon while in warp) that prevents the firing of weapons, or the activation of misc items (maybe of a certain type - what ever the interference would constitute) within a certain km radius of a jump gate, as they are always in a state of flux/activity. This will at least solve the gate ganking, causing the pirates to have to hunt for the prey. This also gives people going to low-sec the ability to get somewhere after jumping through. Pirates will have to coordinate more, someone comes into an area and sees 20 pirates, they will not stick around. But they see one, maybe they take the risk to mine quickly. Then pirate coordinates attack, giving miner a chance to escape. Also will spread the pirates around as people will feel safer. Seems very simple.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:51:00 - [348] Originally by: SiJira why change anything? the rewards are bigger than people claim and the risks are also lower if you know where to go Enough people disagree and have enough bad experience of low-sec to make it nearly empty. Players are not being blown up every time they visit low-sec, but they are blown up enough to stay away from it. It might have been perfectly fine once upon a time, the problem is that the numbers of chokeholds for Gatecamps has stayed the same in low-sec, but the EvE population and thus the numbers of pirates setting up Gatecamps has increased. Sure Gatecamps can be bypassed with some ships like Blockade runners, but certainly not with Hulks or ships you can do lvl 4 combat missions with. And mission runners now have Navy issue battleships or Marauders as mission ships. They are riskning more now than when they just flied T1 battleships. And at the same time the risk has stayed the same or even increased since Pirates has more T2 ships now as well. "Don¦t fly why you can¦t afford to lose". The result is that players will be less and less willing to risk their ships the more expensive those ships are. And they will be even more less willing if CCP tries to starve them out from High-sec. Since with lower income it will take longer time to replace a lost ship. And how will "no change" make low-sec more populated may I ask?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:00:00 - [349] I still like my low-sec idea the most. Yes yes, I know, shameless plug. Its a valid point though. What better way of boosting low-sec's traffic than by making it a thoroughfare? ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:05:00 - [350] Its all about Pain. Pain is Eve's Blessing. Pain is Eve's Curse. There is no cure for this condition. In Eve, it is painful to get killed in one of your 'serious' ships. This Pain has several effects. The pain adds an adrenaline edge to Eve combat, the heart beats fast, the vision focuses, its a rush. However.... Due to that same pain, many players will go out of their why to avoid risk, far more so than if things were less painful. The combined effect is better, but rarer, combat in Eve. The wiser attempts to at least partly "fix" this is to offer greater posibility of reward in lower security areas. Idiots get angry at "carebears" for not being willing suicide monkeys with phat loot, and repeatedly suggest "starving" the carebears into low sec. None of these efforts will ever populated low sec with a decent supply of suicide monkeys. Only a sharp reduction in Pain would do that, but that is a MUCH worse idea. Interestingly enough, for those who like warring empires, there is good action in 0.0, and has been for years. Play nice while you butcher each other.

Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:44:00 - [351] Originally by: Sergeant Spot None of these efforts will ever populated low sec with a decent supply of suicide monkeys. Only a sharp reduction in Pain would do that, but that is a MUCH worse idea. MUCH worse in what sence? For those in High-sec? For those in 0.0 sec? I am sure it is bad for those responsible for low-sec being nearly empty, but what stops them from pirating in 0.0? Anyway you forgot there are not just High-sec people that holds the key for a more populated low-sec. So the question is: What does it take to get 0.0 people to live in low-sec? More pain?
Sloppy Podfarts	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:32:00 - [352] Lot of great ideas here...hope they're watching
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.02 07:15:00 - [353] Originally by: Victor Forge So the question is: What does it take to get 0.0 people to live in low-sec? More pain? The ability to respond pre-emptively and aggressively to threats WITHOUT screwing up your security status. The only folks that can operate freely and "effectively" in 0.4 to 0.1 are the folks who are -5.0 or lower security and the folks workimng on getting their security that low. All others need to hold their fire to often to be truely effective.


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Let them quit!

Let them quit!

Let them quit!