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Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:56:00 - [91] Edited by: Ulstan on 13/06/2008 14:56:25 Quote: Here are a few we have come up with. huggin and rapiers are the anti nano ship use them with a claymore and the web range can be up to 50+km. Sniper nano ships (hacs) can counter some of the nano fleets going about. Haha. I think this illustrates the problem perfectly. The counter to nano ships is drumroll more nano ships of your own! This is entirely true by the way - the other 'counters' merely involve 'driving the nanos away'. If you want to actually kill them you gotta bring nanos of your own. That said, the biggest thing that irks me about nanos is how utterly impervious to any and all missile fire they are - a lot of this is heavy precision missiles being randomly crap, but even light precision woudln't dent a fast nano ship. And I don't think I've ever seen a fleet more vulnerable to nano sniping ships than the Caldari Militia: 2/3 of it is T1 cruisers and frigs who who shoot missiles which are bad at range and bad against nanos and really really bad against nano ships at range. They just kind of huddle together and hope the big bad nano ships don't hurt them. Don't know as I blame them, really, given the lack of effective counters available to a fleet like that.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:57:00 - [92] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 13/06/2008 14:56:25 Quote: Here are a few we have come up with. huggin and rapiers are the anti nano ship use them with a claymore and the web range can be up to 50+km. Sniper nano ships (hacs) can counter some of the nano fleets going about. Haha. I think this illustrates the problem perfectly. The counter to nano ships is drumroll more nano ships of your own! This is entirely true by the way - the other 'counters' merely involve 'driving the nanos away'. If you want to actually kill them you gotta bring nanos of your own. That said, the biggest thing that irks me about nanos is how utterly impervious to any and all missile fire they are - a lot of this is heavy precision missiles being randomly crap, but even light precision woudln't dent a fast nano ship. And I don't think I've ever seen a fleet more vulnerable to nano sniping ships than the Caldari Militia: 2/3 of it is T1 cruisers and frigs who who shoot missiles which are bad at range and bad against nanos and really really bad against nano ships at range. They just kind of huddle together and hope the big bad nano ships don't hurt them. Don't know as I blame them, really, given the lack of effective counters available to a fleet like that. Hurf blurf.
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:04:00 - [93] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 13/06/2008 14:58:11 Edited by: Ulstan on 13/06/2008 14:56:25 Quote: Here are a few we have come up with. huggin and rapiers are the anti nano ship use them with a claymore and the web range can be up to 50+km. Sniper nano ships (hacs) can counter some of the nano fleets going about. Haha. I think this illustrates the problem perfectly. The counter to nano ships is drumroll more nano ships of your own! This is entirely true by the way - the other 'counters' merely involve 'driving the nanos away'. If you want to actually kill them you gotta bring fast ships of your own. That said, the biggest thing that irks me about nanos is how utterly impervious to any and all missile fire they are - a lot of this is heavy precision missiles being randomly crap, but even light precision woudln't dent a fast nano ship. And I don't think I've ever seen a fleet more vulnerable to nano sniping ships than the Caldari Militia: 2/3 of it is T1 cruisers and frigs who who shoot missiles which are bad at range and bad against nanos and really really bad against nano ships at range. They just kind of huddle together and hope the big bad nano ships don't hurt them. Don't know as I blame them, really, given the lack of effective counters available to a fleet like that. Obviously a coordinated gang like INVCT would run rings around a random mass of T1 militia ships no matter what INVCT was flying. What about reading the thread. What about learning to play. What about not posting untill you have ANY clue. It's funny that RR BS gangs are totally accepted even though they're more powerfull than nano gangs. Thanks, and have a good day. Also HURF BLURF
FlameGlow State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:10:00 - [94] Originally by: Euriti It's funny that RR BS gangs are totally accepted even though they're more powerfull than nano gangs. More powerfull? Maybe, but they are not getting away if taken on by a fleet. Do you know why warpstabs were nerfed with penalties they give now? Just for that reason - they allowed to escape any fight you didn't want to commit to.
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:14:00 - [95] Edited by: Euriti on 13/06/2008 15:14:48 Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Euriti It's funny that RR BS gangs are totally accepted even though they're more powerfull than nano gangs. More powerfull? Maybe, but they are not getting away if taken on by a fleet. Do you know why warpstabs were nerfed with penalties they give now? Just for that reason - they allowed to escape any fight you didn't want to commit to. Bring support vessels, dictors, hictors, recons, other hacs, mobile warp disruptors and what not. If you want this nerfed on behalf of low sec then i can tell you, fleets only happen once a blue moon in these cases, nerfing nano which is the foundation of small gang warfare in 0.0 because of that would be epic failure.
Yarr2K 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:44:00 - [96] Whoa! The OP sure knows how to toss a grenade.
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:47:00 - [97] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Euriti It's funny that RR BS gangs are totally accepted even though they're more powerfull than nano gangs. More powerfull? Maybe, but they are not getting away if taken on by a fleet. Do you know why warpstabs were nerfed with penalties they give now? Just for that reason - they allowed to escape any fight you didn't want to commit to. No, it was because they allowed you to escape from any fight you didn't want to commit to without any drawbacks whatsoever. Nanos are expensive as hell and you completely give up tanking, and if you go really fast you have tracking issues of your own. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Straight Chillen Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:15:00 - [98] Nano Neut Domi Eats Nanos
Trojanman190 Altruism. Malice.	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:44:00 - [99] People nano because other people blob. People nano because if you fly a tanked hac with a few friends you won't be able to run from the 40 man blobs rolling around space. REmoving nanos from the game would break pvp not fix it.
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:58:00 - [100] Originally by: Trojanman190 People nano because other people blob. People nano because if you fly a tanked hac with a few friends you won't be able to run from the 40 man blobs rolling around space. REmoving nanos from the game would break pvp not fix it. Yes and tanking a HAC is in many cases not worth it because a) You are not guaranteed solo fights and your buffer is really low b) The only advantage is has over a t2 BC is mobility which makes it very cost inefficient in many cases.
Lo3d3R The Solvay Conference	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:04:00 - [101] To everyone that is post so called solutions for countering NANO, if the the NANO pilot is stupid enough to come closer, well he should be toast. But in the end, even with neuting, they just press cap inject + mwd + overheat = bye bye. They get away from 'fair' fights, but ye I fly it, hard to catch...
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:09:00 - [102] Originally by: Lo3d3R To everyone that is post so called solutions for countering NANO, if the the NANO pilot is stupid enough to come closer, well he should be toast. But in the end, even with neuting, they just press cap inject + mwd + overheat = bye bye. They get away from 'fair' fights, but ye I fly it, hard to catch... Vagabond does not use injector, neither does rapier and huginn, dunno if there's more.
Mire Stoude Cash Money Brothers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:29:00 - [103] Edited by: Mire Stoude on 13/06/2008 18:30:17 Originally by: Larkonis Trassler ECM *doesn't kill nanos* Remote reps *don't kill nanos* Heavy neuts *only work in a 1v1 or against daft nanos* Overload MWD and Web *will work against daft nanos* Light drones **don't do sht* Flying nano yourself might work Minmatar Recons get primaried and die fast Webbing inties die even faster** fixed it for you
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Fist1 OMG I forgot to fit webs to my ship, PLEASE CCP!!!!! nerf something to make me feel better for not properly setting up a gang. web would help if nanos came withing 40km of you... let alone 10km to have webs work! you fail.
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:07:00 - [105] I like the way all the whiners are caldari
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:08:00 - [106] Originally by: Pithecanthropus web would help if nanos came withing 40km of you... let alone 10km to have webs work! you fail. If they're 40km from you, why not warp out?
Demitria Fernir Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:21:00 - [107] so, there's still ppl that whine about speed. [troll] now, what should we do next? OH YES, nerf nos and neut, damn they killd a mom in ls. also nerf ECm, what the hell falcon jamming mah fleet. and DAMN THOSE DRONES, ALL THE LAG FROM THEM, REMOVE DRONES WTFZOMG. oh right, also web are overpowered, nerf them. what did i miss? right, drake passive tank, short-range ship damage outputs, blobs and nano. [/troll] srsly, it seems you don't get that a single nano sucker can't kill you when your fleet is near. and people should really start training minmatar recons instead of forum warfare
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:30:00 - [108] Nano is not bad as a once in a while ship. However when 15 to 20 ship gangs of Nanobots are running around it is just stupid. They are for sure FOTM but that just means they will be nerfed sooner or later. I give them credit though running at high speed on the battlefield is fun but I prefer damage. Basically what we have are cruiser sized interceptors. I laugh when they go pop though and see a couple hundred million go up in smoke. Tasty.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:34:00 - [109] Originally by: Pattern Clarc I like the way all the whiners are caldari That is because you just don't understand what the issue is most likely a reason for that since Caldari ships aren't very good at nano-copying? Ever thought of that? No didn't think so. I love how everyone whines about Caldari, most of my people are Caldari and I love it. We hate you too don't worry yourself. Freaks
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:37:00 - [110] I think there should be a 10% chance for a cruiser sized ship to explode after 2000KM/S
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:52:00 - [111] Originally by: Spineker I think there should be a 10% chance for a cruiser sized ship to explode after 2000KM/S I think there should be a 100% ban of you posting after this post. Shame neither of us will get what we want.
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:59:00 - [112] All those people saying "missiles dont do ****!", it's not nanos that are the problem there, it's missiles being broken on that point.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:59:00 - [113] Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Spineker I think there should be a 10% chance for a cruiser sized ship to explode after 2000KM/S I think there should be a 100% ban of you posting after this post. Shame neither of us will get what we want. Why? Oh I see you are playing FOTM also so if anyone doesn't like it they should just shut up and not mention the 20 gang fleets of nanodopes running around. Make it 20%
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:04:00 - [114] Originally by: Spineker Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Spineker I think there should be a 10% chance for a cruiser sized ship to explode after 2000KM/S I think there should be a 100% ban of you posting after this post. Shame neither of us will get what we want. Why? Oh I see you are playing FOTM also so if anyone doesn't like it they should just shut up and not mention the 20 gang fleets of nanodopes running around. Make it 20% Actually, it's because you're a terrible poster. Make it so I get all your stuff before you get banned. (I can do that too.)
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:07:00 - [115] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Euriti It's funny that RR BS gangs are totally accepted even though they're more powerfull than nano gangs. More powerfull? Maybe, but they are not getting away if taken on by a fleet. Do you know why warpstabs were nerfed with penalties they give now? Just for that reason - they allowed to escape any fight you didn't want to commit to. No, it was because they allowed you to escape from any fight you didn't want to commit to without any drawbacks whatsoever. Nanos are expensive as hell and you completely give up tanking, and if you go really fast you have tracking issues of your own. Ah yes. The reliable "If it's expensive it's ok for it to be overpowered" response. Also, if you fit all your slots with WCS, you gave up all your tank. So don't pretend stacking WCS didn't have any drawbacks. Nano'ing, however, gives you an excellent tank as long as you can maintain your speed. WCS only let you get out of fights you didn't want to be in. Nanos lets you get into fights your opponent wants to escape from, provides you with a very good tank against some weapon systems, and then lets you escape from fights you don't want to be in. While it requires more piloting skill than just throwing on a hangar full of WCS, it's definitely more powerful than the old WCS was. And that's not even considering heavy interdictors ability to ignore WCS entirely. Of course, the people who say that nanos are their only counter to blobbing are generally correct. So I can understand the visceral fury with which they defend their chosen playstyle. Blobbing is also a horrible feature of EVE which needs to be corrected, and I don't think you can just outright nerf nanos without also finding some way to 'nerf' blobs so that that doesn't become the only way to play EVE. Small incremental common sense fixes (like reducing polycarbs to be in line with all other rigs and upping the effectivenes of the bugged heavy precision missiles) should of course be implemented asap.
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:10:00 - [116] Originally by: Pattern Clarc I like the way all the whiners are caldari Were you also surprised at how all the whiners in the 'lasers suck' thread were amarr? Caldari ships are slow and heavy and tend to use missiles. Think about that and you'll see why people flying caldari ships are most likely to be unhappy with the current state of nanos.
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:11:00 - [117] Edited by: Spineker on 13/06/2008 21:12:36 Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Spineker Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Spineker I think there should be a 10% chance for a cruiser sized ship to explode after 2000KM/S I think there should be a 100% ban of you posting after this post. Shame neither of us will get what we want. Why? Oh I see you are playing FOTM also so if anyone doesn't like it they should just shut up and not mention the 20 gang fleets of nanodopes running around. Make it 20% Actually, it's because you're a terrible poster. Make it so I get all your stuff before you get banned. (I can do that too.) I see so lets look at your post in this thread? in their entire length and context 1st: Bitter post spotted. 2nd: I'd like to quote this, because I wish it were so. 3rd: Because it's not? 4th: Posting in a bitter thread. 5th: No u. 6th: MWD fit on battleships crew checkin' in. :awesome: 7th: Hurf blurf. With such incredible insight I would think you rushed to get a FOTM ship setup and now know it is a broken system and see it getting nerfed. Nano's are broken period there is no surprise here no hidden science they are wrong.
RC Denton	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:13:00 - [118] Originally by: Euriti All those people saying "missiles dont do ****!", it's not nanos that are the problem there, it's missiles being broken on that point. This is something that I totally agree with. Precision missiles should have their explosion velocities upped to around 10k-15km/s. This with the missile velocity bonus's you can get from ships and rigs and skills would serve as a very nice nano counter as they would take full dmg from precision missiles which are exactly the type of weapon that should do full dmg to them.
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:14:00 - [119] Originally by: Ulstan Originally by: Pattern Clarc I like the way all the whiners are caldari Were you also surprised at how all the whiners in the 'lasers suck' thread were amarr? Caldari ships are slow and heavy and tend to use missiles. Think about that and you'll see why people flying caldari ships are most likely to be unhappy with the current state of nanos. Missiles are broken vs fast ships, turrets are not. Fix missiles. Polycarbs could do with a nerf down to 10% i agree, with less materials needed tho! Buff nanofiber to 15% then?
Euriti SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:15:00 - [120] Edited by: Euriti on 13/06/2008 21:15:11 Originally by: RC Denton Originally by: Euriti All those people saying "missiles dont do **!", it's not nanos that are the problem there, it's missiles being broken on that point. This is something that I totally agree with. Precision missiles should have their explosion velocities upped to around 10k-15km/s. This with the missile velocity bonus's you can get from ships and rigs and skills would serve as a very nice nano counter as they would take full dmg from precision missiles which are exactly the type of weapon that should do full dmg to them. Full damage would be a bit over the top, the damage should be brought in line with turrets hitting same target, aka if turrets get 30% cut off their dps because of the speed precision missiles should too. I'm a fan of buffing, since nerfing just wastes peoples training and isk and **es them off.

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