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Trail Katron
Monkey Universe Corporation Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.06.18 12:17:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl "zomg my drake cant kill nano"
/thread
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.18 12:26:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 18/06/2008 12:25:48
Originally by: burek
Originally by: Xeronn you should NOT be able to disengage so easely once you engage in a fight
And why exactly should you NOT be able to? No one ever retreated in history of warfare? Come on...
Since you apparently can't understand simple sentences, the important part of what you quoted, and ignored, is the "so easily" words. ------------------------------------------
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.06.18 12:47:00 -
[273]
Originally by: HakanSherif
Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 17/06/2008 19:25:12
Quote: I dont care who gots frustrated
In that case, nanos will inevitably be badly nerfed. Look, it's obvious they're at least slightly overpowered and it is pointless to pretend otherwise. As we've learned, things that generate massive massive outcries from huge swathes of the playerbase not only get nerfed, they tend to get *over* nerfed, even if most of those complaints are exaggerations.
So, instead of acting like children and simply insulting everyone who is frustrated at combatting a slightly overpowered combination, you would be much better advised to spend your time educating the population on how to effectively catch and kill nano ships without using nano ships of their own. In effect, you should show them clearly and convincingly that nanos, while admittely difficult to kill, are not invincible. Calling them noobs and telling them they suck won't get you anywhere. It's not going to change anyones mind. When nano pilots act like *******s it just makes your average joe even more convinced that nanos are overpowered and even more desirous of seeing them nerfed.
I dont care, I hate whiny ppl with passion, I do everything within my power to make the life miserable for them. I am a nano pilot, I fly a vagabond 99% of the time, when I started to play this game appx 1 yar ago, I checked the ships on market and I decided i want to fly a Vagabond and trained all my skills related to that, I have 5 vagabonds in my hangar at any given time with different set ups. So yea your average joe especially when hes a noob and a dumbass wont kill me. But like i said a vagabond is the least efficient nano ship against your blobs.
What you want is to decrease the effectiveness of player skill and organisation and tactics hiding behind empathy so **** you. I am hearing they gona nerf nano for a year now. It wont be the first time if CCP do so that I quit a game becoz of devs listening to whiney carebears who has braincells of frogs. And go to my next game to continue to make life misrable for pussies.
Oh and you are telling me to train and teach ppl how to catch me and kill me, yeah? Yea I can do that if you pay me 20 billion isk. Then you can see they can be decimated to oblivion with right tactics.
Truth be told if nano does get a massive nerf and you do leave then I for one will not miss you or your attitude.
The amount of nano ships in FW is starting to put me off. I am all for fighting and losing ships but I do want to actualy have a chance of killing them.
As it stands they can disengage whenever they want even if I have a web/scam combo on them while I must stand my ground. Its a long time till I can fly a huggin or curse so I am stuck with what I have and frankly, it just not up to the job.
At the moment a good nano gang is untouchable for anything other than another nano gang.
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.18 12:59:00 -
[274]
Originally by: HakanSherif I am hearing they gona nerf nano for a year now. It wont be the first time if CCP do so that I quit a game becoz of devs listening to whiney carebears who has braincells of frogs. And go to my next game to continue to make life misrable for pussies.
Can I have your stuff when nano is nerfed?
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Ulic Vos
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:20:00 -
[275]
Originally by: baltec1
Its a long time till I can fly a huggin or curse other than
welp
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Agor Dirdonen
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:25:00 -
[276]
Mmm, I'm wondering that if I can get a cruiser with a better tank then a Battleship that's not set up for tanking, would this mean that cruisers are overpowered?
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Cybele Lanier
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:52:00 -
[277]
My 2 penn'orth. I don't think nanoships are bad in themselves, but they do highlight a lot of weaknesses and unspoken assumptions in the EVE combat system. Such as:
1: No matter what ship you're talking about, X + 1 ships of that type can always do the job better than X can. You have no loss of effectiveness for 50 battleships firing at one, towers with 5.5 zillion HP, and the fact that a ship with 0 shield, 0 armour and 1 hull fights just as well as one in peak condition, demanding a massive concentration of firepower to make all three bars red ASAP. People don't blob because they don't know any decent tactics, or are scared of loss, they blob because the combat system rewards it, plain and simple. If you go out in a small gang, you'll probably lose to a big one, which cuts out a huge swathe of tactics and edges out small ops as a way of doing anything tactically important or even entertaining. Nanoships are an exception.
2: Hand-in-hand with 1) is the fact that lag sucks. The one thing everyone on this board can agree on is that it just plain sucks to die to a black screen or five-minute module lag. However, as above, the "more ships is always good!" strategy that EVE promotes makes lag almost inevitable. So a way to be effective in small gangs is desirable.
3: The rules supposedly strongly discourage fleeing from combat, as the massive nerfing of core stabilisers shows. Pursuit isn't really a viable option once the target warps out. They can dock at a station, cloak, or just play safespot pinball until they can log off. However, combine that with the steep death penalties that are supposed to be a merit of EVE, and it's little wonder that people will look for a setup that lets them flee when things go bad. So the end result is that the speedy pilot has much less at stake than the guy who spent the same amount of skills & money on something slower and tougher. Little wonder this leads to resentment.
4: The speed counters aren't very well developed (assuming 'counter' means to kill instead of just drive off with no losses). Webs work....if you spend a couple of months training to fly highly specific ships and enjoy getting primaried. Precision missiles stink. Neutralisers just prompt the enemy to warp off. So the choice seems to become fly nano, fly certain recons, or don't bother undocking. This wouldn't matter if nanogangs were less ubiquitous and you had a good chance of facing another type of gang, but that doesn't seem to happen very often. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence." |
Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:02:00 -
[278]
Originally by: burek
Originally by: Xeronn you should NOT be able to disengage so easely once you engage in a fight
And why exactly should you NOT be able to? No one ever retreated in history of warfare? Come on...
If non nano ships could escape as easily from nanos as nanos can from non nanos, I think you'd see a lot less complaining. Incidentally, this would be a much more fair situation.
The current situation, where nano ships still have amazing tanks (yes there are counters, but there are counters to any tanks) and can pretty much go immune to all missile fire on the battlefield, while simultaneously being fast enough to catch anyone trying to get away, while *also* being fast enough to escape from any fight they don't like, is giving them the best of all worlds.
As I said, it's far worse than the old WCS was in terms of being able to get out of fights you don't like and not giving up anything for it. Now, it does take more skillpoints to fly, and the setups are more expensive, so there is that mitigating factor.
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Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:11:00 -
[279]
Originally by: burek
Originally by: Xeronn you should NOT be able to disengage so easely once you engage in a fight
And why exactly should you NOT be able to? No one ever retreated in history of warfare? Come on...
Same reasons WCS were nerfed
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Xeronn
Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:19:00 -
[280]
Why one shouldn`t be able to disengage at will from fights? isn`t that obvious?
Ok , so I do agree that hotdrops can suck and the cyno and capital ship system needs a lot of fixing (i.e make a cyno need like 15 min to deploy? make moving caps around way way different then it is now? i don`t know , it just needs fixing , just as JB`s need work and rethinking)
Imho, and i keep insisting, the solution would be some sort of aggro-like mechanic reguarding warping . That would affect PvP as a whole , and nanos the most . So you wanna avoid blobs and fights and just run around for cheap kills so you can wave your e-pen and leet skillz around? you suck at counerstrike ? good, welcome to eve , play nano! But IF you do find that target you were looking for and chose to engage, better be sure you really want to engage, mechanics should force you to stay engaged for a reasonable ammount of time . I know very well that people want risk-free PvP, and please realize that for the 1-2 bill worth of nano-hac pilot, the risk isn`t in losing the isk , the risk is in loosing a few inches off his e-pen if he gets poped.
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Spartacus Cray
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:20:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Spartacus Cray on 18/06/2008 14:22:10 Edited by: Spartacus Cray on 18/06/2008 14:20:46
Originally by: burek
Originally by: Xeronn you should NOT be able to disengage so easely once you engage in a fight
And why exactly should you NOT be able to? No one ever retreated in history of warfare? Come on...
Oh, and of course nobody in history got shot in the back while trying to run away then ? Did I miss the point, where armies in history moved themselves hundrets of kilometers away from the battle and made themselves invisible near instantly ?
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:27:00 -
[282]
I can find tons of killmails with nano pilots dying to BS/BC with no recon on them, it ain't hard, if you wanna kill a nano in a BC solo tho you can **** off, not gonna happen unless nano is stupid.
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Xeronn
Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:35:00 -
[283]
retreat ...well sure, retreat should allways be an option, but not zoooom! i`m out! kind of retreat . I`m not talking just about nanos, i`m talking about PvP in general . Fights should involve a lot more comitement, and imho, just the current scrams we got ain`t cutting it . Am I the only one sick of docking games, deagro/jump games, dumb races to get out of bubbles and the OMG I MADE IT 25 KM AWAY FROM THE ENEMY now i can just vanish?
At the speeds we have in eve today, with mandatory MWD on any set up, it`s way to easy to retreat . nanos for once . in sniper blob fights, just warp when the overview starts flashing...just meh warp 5 min between SS,s and dock, stop shooting and pray to survive the few min it tages for the gate to forget you`re a criminal and let you through...
But I guess the way to travel would need looking at aswell, it`s waaaay to easy to reinforce your blob ...if any fight lasts a reasonable amount of time you can bet that most people online can get to it . Space is suposed to be huge...come on..how come anyone within 10-20-30 SOLAR SYSTEMS can get to point X in a matter of minutes? I guess slowing down travel would do a LOT for the distribution of players amongst systems aswell , and eventually help small gang PvP . Hear me out : Living somewhere would actually mean something, you can`t just "meh..so what..reds? i`ll just shout in intell and everyone will be here to help me in a min or 2" You`d need to be sure that the people you have in the system or maybe 1-2 jumps away will do..
ok but i`m not on subject here and i`ll just shut up..i just guess i want eve to feel a lot more like SPACE and not like runing around the city .
ok rant over
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Kristoffer
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:41:00 -
[284]
What part about medium guns tracking nanos do all of you not understand.
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Xeronn
Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:44:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Kristoffer What part about medium guns tracking nanos do all of you not understand.
What part about reading dont you undersand? you CAN kill nanos like any other ships IF nanos WANT to stay and fight HOWEVER if nanos DONT want to stay and fight , you can take your ah-so-praised counters and ********* them, they will just LEAVE .
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Kristoffer
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:45:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Xeronn
Originally by: Kristoffer What part about medium guns tracking nanos do all of you not understand.
What part about reading dont you undersand? you CAN kill nanos like any other ships IF nanos WANT to stay and fight HOWEVER if nanos DONT want to stay and fight , you can take your ah-so-praised counters and ********* them, they will just LEAVE .
What part of enough medium guns shooting a nano so it dies before it aligns do you not understand.
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Xeronn
Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:50:00 -
[287]
oh oh ok , sory, you`re right , a big blob will probably be able to lock and oneshot the agile nano that takes entire seconds to align and one-shot it before it gets out. If the said nano is part of a nano gang, YAY the blob scores a kill! great! So all i need to do to fight nanos is bring 1 blob/enemy nano ship so i can one-shot it before it aligns! Awessome!
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Kristoffer
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:52:00 -
[288]
Edited by: Kristoffer on 18/06/2008 14:53:48
Originally by: Xeronn oh oh ok , sory, you`re right , a big blob will probably be able to lock and oneshot the agile nano that takes entire seconds to align and one-shot it before it gets out. If the said nano is part of a nano gang, YAY the blob scores a kill! great! So all i need to do to fight nanos is bring 1 blob/enemy nano ship so i can one-shot it before it aligns! Awessome!
Most nanoships have to either move towards the blob to get in range after running or loose their alignment at one point or another. An FC with a blob of sniping cruisers just needs to be competent and he can take them down.
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.18 14:55:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Xeronn oh oh ok , sory, you`re right , a big blob will probably be able to lock and oneshot the agile nano that takes entire seconds to align and one-shot it before it gets out. If the said nano is part of a nano gang, YAY the blob scores a kill! great! So all i need to do to fight nanos is bring 1 blob/enemy nano ship so i can one-shot it before it aligns! Awessome!
You have to factor in humans here. Once you start to get shot you have to find somewhere to align to, then if the mwd has just been turned on it will take longer, then you have to do the align.
It takes longer than you think.
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Xeronn
Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:00:00 -
[290]
ok to end this rant :) you just HAVE to love the new align buton! i know i do , my aligns have never been so swift and painless!
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:20:00 -
[291]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 18/06/2008 15:22:51
Originally by: Euriti You have to factor in humans here. Once you start to get shot you have to find somewhere to align to, then if the mwd has just been turned on it will take longer, then you have to do the align.
It takes longer than you think.
Anyway it's no more then 2 shots, maybe 3 if you're lucky and nano pilot is distracted. So just how many sniping cruisers per nanoHAC are there supposed to be? 20? 40? 100? Oh, and after you downed or damaged one ship all the nanogang will probably flee, as usual, unless you brought so many sniping cruisers to take them down all at once (or crash the node which is more likely)
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:21:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Kristoffer Edited by: Kristoffer on 18/06/2008 14:47:16
Originally by: Xeronn
Originally by: Kristoffer What part about medium guns tracking nanos do all of you not understand.
What part about reading dont you undersand? you CAN kill nanos like any other ships IF nanos WANT to stay and fight HOWEVER if nanos DONT want to stay and fight , you can take your ah-so-praised counters and ********* them, they will just LEAVE .
What part of enough medium guns shooting a nano so it dies before it aligns do you not understand.
Im not interested in the rest of your post btw.
A typical nano HAS has 2 LSE II, so around 9k shield, 3k armor, 3k structure. Killing that with one salvo mean a lots of medium guns.
So you say that to counter a single nano ship, we should have a blob of 50? That's the most idiotic argument a nano lover has uttered yet, and it takes some doing. ------------------------------------------
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Kristoffer
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:28:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kristoffer
Im not interested in the rest of your post btw.
A typical nano HAS has 2 LSE II, so around 9k shield, 3k armor, 3k structure. Killing that with one salvo mean a lots of medium guns.
So you say that to counter a single nano ship, we should have a blob of 50? That's the most idiotic argument a nano lover has uttered yet, and it takes some doing.
Im talking about the caldari and their current situation about being unable to hit nanos in their drakes.
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:32:00 -
[294]
Originally by: FlameGlow Edited by: FlameGlow on 18/06/2008 15:22:51
Originally by: Euriti You have to factor in humans here. Once you start to get shot you have to find somewhere to align to, then if the mwd has just been turned on it will take longer, then you have to do the align.
It takes longer than you think.
Anyway it's no more then 2 shots, maybe 3 if you're lucky and nano pilot is distracted. So just how many sniping cruisers per nanoHAC are there supposed to be? 20? 40? 100? Oh, and after you downed or damaged one ship all the nanogang will probably flee, as usual, unless you brought so many sniping cruisers to take them down all at once (or crash the node which is more likely)
1) Neut said nano hac with a BS
2) Send out ceptor to point
3) ???????
4) PROFIT
Yes I'm talking gang here, if you wanna balance them after solo then I won't even bother arguing.
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HakanSherif
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:34:00 -
[295]
Kris stop trying to talk sense to these idiots. They dont have a ******* clue about EvE, i dont think they have a clue in life aswell, with the sheer amount of stupidity they openly display here.
Est Sularus oth Mithas |
Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:35:00 -
[296]
Originally by: Shadowsword A typical nano HAS has 2 LSE II, so around 9k shield, 3k armor, 3k structure
Ishtar 8300 shield, 1900 armor, 2000 structure
Vagabond 8600 shield, 1500 armor, 1200 structure
Curse 8100 shield, 1650 armor, 1100 structure
Zealot 1200 shield, 2538 armor, 2110 structure (With dcu tho)
Get your facts straight then maybe, just maybe I'll try to take you serious.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:36:00 -
[297]
The rather depressing fact that every single Caldari blob features 3-10 Drakes only goes to prove their incompetence of dealing with anything other than rolling their heads across the F-keys.
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Kalintos Tyl
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:36:00 -
[298]
how about tracking distruptors doing nothing to caldari ships. And their misiless always hitting?
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:40:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: FlameGlow Edited by: FlameGlow on 18/06/2008 15:22:51
Originally by: Euriti You have to factor in humans here. Once you start to get shot you have to find somewhere to align to, then if the mwd has just been turned on it will take longer, then you have to do the align.
It takes longer than you think.
Anyway it's no more then 2 shots, maybe 3 if you're lucky and nano pilot is distracted. So just how many sniping cruisers per nanoHAC are there supposed to be? 20? 40? 100? Oh, and after you downed or damaged one ship all the nanogang will probably flee, as usual, unless you brought so many sniping cruisers to take them down all at once (or crash the node which is more likely)
1) Neut said nano hac with a BS
2) Send out ceptor to point
3) ???????
4) PROFIT
Yes I'm talking gang here, if you wanna balance them after solo then I won't even bother arguing.
1. easyer said than done, a BS wont ever catch them.
2. a ceptor is a very soft target, once webbed itself it will burst like a wet bag.
This is the problem the caldari navy is facing, we do not seem to have very many nano ships of our own and the above tactics are not working on the nano gangs.
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Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:40:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Kristoffer
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Kristoffer
Im not interested in the rest of your post btw.
A typical nano HAS has 2 LSE II, so around 9k shield, 3k armor, 3k structure. Killing that with one salvo mean a lots of medium guns.
So you say that to counter a single nano ship, we should have a blob of 50? That's the most idiotic argument a nano lover has uttered yet, and it takes some doing.
Im talking about the caldari and their current situation about being unable to hit nanos in their drakes.
Well if heavy precision missiles didn't suck, we could tell them to train heavy missile V and stop complaining!
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