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Connection issues 22nd of June 2008

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
zokoo	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:11:00 - [241] Maybe if CCP served beer we would have no dc's?
DeltaFlux Blackwind Securities	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:12:00 - [242] Heh, I love all the "OMG I got disconnected 20 times then I lost my ship!" posts. Does it not occur to these people after the third or fourth drop to warp to a safe spot and then do something other than play EVE for a while? No signature... yet.
Emily Spankratchet Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:15:00 - [243] Originally by: RuneTday Can you imagine the international class action lawsuit against CCP from all of its subscribers???? That will cost real $$$$ or Euros or other currencies instead of electronic isk. Good luck in a class action lawsuit to recover your Internet Spaceships. Your contract, such as it is, with CCP (the EULA) has interesting clauses where they don't guarantee to provide a full or consistent level of service. In fact, they don't guarantee to provide any service. Ignoring for the moment that most EULAs aren't worth the paper they're (not) written on, trying to sue a company that provides an internet service because another service provider fouled up should be very interesting.
Nereni Valacon Genesis Inc	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:25:00 - [244] Edited by: Nereni Valacon on 23/06/2008 18:25:31 Originally by: Zanpt I believe your conclusion is incorrect. Limelight is blowing smoke up your rears. Since this problem began coincidentally with the optional patch, traceroutes and PingPlotter have clearly shown the reappearance of an old, recurring problem: packet loss and outages in the llnw.net nodes just before the CCP cluster. This is not the first time this has happened and if you don't ditch Limelight it won't be the last. The very fact that Limelight tries to fob responsibility off on another party shows that they are unable or unwilling to deal with it. As long as I have been experiencing connectivity problems with Eve, Limelight has been the source of the problems. I have two Internet feeds. My preferred one happens to get to CCP's London cluster via llnw.net. When I switch to the other one, the connectivity problems vanish. To those who loudly proclaim this is not CCP's fault or problem, you are wrong. Anything that affects CCP's paying customers is CCP's problem whether or not the outages are their "fault." To those who deride the complaints as whines because they see no problem, run down to the Clue Store and buy a clue: CCP has more than one Internet feed in London. Different customers have different ISPs that use different routes to connect to London. Some ISPs use upstream providers who route through Limelight and their customers are suffering unplayable conditions. Other ISPs use other upstream providers who route through the other network paths to reach London and their customers are not experiencing difficulties at this time. If CCP themselves had a clue they would have arrangements with folks in several countries on several continents to be able to ssh or VPN into a box there and run their own traceroutes and other diagnostics back to their London cluster. Then they would clearly see the problems we see and be in a much better position to know what's going on and respond to it. If CCP themselves had a clue they would implement a resilient connnection management layer in Eve to establish virtual connections and gracefully handle loss of TCP "connections." This can be done fairly easily at the application level by reestablishing the TCP connection when lost, and in the servers by providing for such connection reestablishment without loss of Eve "session" states and data. It could be done even more effectively by using UDP instead of TCP and writing their own equivalent of TCP with much more flexible treatment of virtual connections than TCP typically offers. The Eve client presently throws up its hands and exits at the first sign of a problem with the TCP connection to the London cluster. It's not rocket science to do better than that. This post is relevant to my interests. CCP take note: UDP DOES exist!
Aidia Nestor	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:35:00 - [245] You must be on the error-side of the Atlantic ;) Here in Sweden I haven't had any disconnects at all. My ISP is Telia
Alpha Otoko Malum Intentio The Fifth Race	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:46:00 - [246] I've gotten to the point of not even bothering to explain things like this, because people don't understand the complex networks consisting of 100's of routers and switches.
Shulak	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:48:00 - [247] Should rename to Lemon-light
Alpha Otoko Malum Intentio The Fifth Race	Posted - 2008.06.23 18:55:00 - [248] About UDP and WHY it wouldn't work for EVE. UDP is a simpler message-based connectionless protocol. In connectionless protocols, there is no effort made to setup a dedicated end-to-end connection. Communication is achieved by transmitting information in one direction, from source to destination without checking to see if the destination is still there, or if it is prepared to receive the information. With UDP messages (packets) cross the network in independent units. * Unreliable - When a message is sent, it cannot be known if it will reach its destination; it could get lost along the way. There is no concept of acknowledgment, retransmission and timeout. * Not ordered - If two messages are sent to the same recipient, the order in which they arrive cannot be predicted. * Lightweight - There is no ordering of messages, no tracking connections, etc. It is a small transport layer designed on top of IP. * Datagrams - Packets are sent individually and are guaranteed to be whole if they arrive. Packets have definite bounds and no split or merge into data streams may exist.
Tuuc Ansam	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:00:00 - [249] The ironic thing is that when network problems are perceived, the first thing people do is start running pings and traces, which compound the issue of a possibly already congested routing device or network fabric. ICMP echo reply and trace packets have to be created/modified and returned by the router, whose primary function is to -forward- traffic. Consequently, network admins may choose to lower the thread priority of ICMP echo replies or disable them entirely to help with the problem, which causes 100% packet loss from the "tracer/pinger" perspective indicating a total route failure to the endpoint. I would encourage us all to allow the network providers to troubleshoot and fix their network, as they have the tools to do so. Regarding congestion in the network and routes through an alternate provider... This is entirely in how the network peers are set up. BGP is a path vector routing protocol that makes routing decisions based on hop count between autonomous systems. Most major, and all transit, providers are their own autonomous systems. If BGP is not configured correctly, routing calculations could favor one provider over another, imbalancing traffic across all connected peers. Additionally, extra hops within a particular system lack consideration for external routing unless the border routers are configured otherwise. For instance if LimeLight experiences trouble within their own network that causes an increase in the internal hop count to the Tranquility server, they may still be a preferred route from an external path perspective, and will still be chosen in AS path routing decisions. It seems that LimeLight has problems not only internally, but also externally with their peering configurations. CCP has only to break the connection with LimeLight, who will advertise to their peers that they cannot find CCP. Then alternate routes can be taken through their other providers.
BELLZYBUB Shade.	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:01:00 - [250] funny my vista comp is disco'in about every 15 min but my windows xp hasent disco'ed not even once.... " SOUL COUNTER DELUXE" THE DEVILS ADVOCATE

Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:13:00 - [251] Originally by: Alpha Otoko About UDP and WHY it wouldn't work for EVE. UDP is a simpler message-based connectionless protocol. In connectionless protocols, there is no effort made to setup a dedicated end-to-end connection. Communication is achieved by transmitting information in one direction, from source to destination without checking to see if the destination is still there, or if it is prepared to receive the information. With UDP messages (packets) cross the network in independent units. * Unreliable - When a message is sent, it cannot be known if it will reach its destination; it could get lost along the way. There is no concept of acknowledgment, retransmission and timeout. * Not ordered - If two messages are sent to the same recipient, the order in which they arrive cannot be predicted. * Lightweight - There is no ordering of messages, no tracking connections, etc. It is a small transport layer designed on top of IP. * Datagrams - Packets are sent individually and are guaranteed to be whole if they arrive. Packets have definite bounds and no split or merge into data streams may exist. See your stupid. The Reason to use UDP is to speed up transfer they already only use TCP for transport as they have their own internal network layer that wraps up sends over tcp and then disassembles it on the other side. I can't tell you how many other MMO's do it this way but its pretty much all of them.
ENDEVOUR STEVE	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:28:00 - [252] This is BS. If this is how internet providers are going to start to charge money for ISP connection they might as well just shot them selfs because theres gonna be a lot of ****ed off that are going to go crazy and kill them all. So what is CCP doing about this issue I know you guys Know, What is CCP doing to prevent this type of crap from happening?
Ma Duka	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:28:00 - [253] I have been reading the 9 pages of constant disconections. I my self am very tired of it ,and i dont have any explanation for it . I do beleave it is CCP problem . the conections to the USA has to be the worst . Who ever heard of loosing a connection while connection. Please get it fixed. regards Ma Duka
Jinlo Fan	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:29:00 - [254] Edited by: Jinlo Fan on 23/06/2008 19:33:54 Has it gotten any better?
Jules Smeg	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:30:00 - [255] Have been afflicted with the recent connection issues via limelight and have noticed some interesting things since you have removed their connection. Firstly the amount of hops from my pc to Eve has been reduced by 2 û YAY. Also the time it takes packets to get to Eve on the whole has also slightly reduced û YAY. NOT having them as an ISP that you pass traffic through is looking like a good idea considering the above observations and the amount of issues that have occurred with ôconnectivity issuesö in the recent past. Jules
TheMailman GreenSwarm Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:34:00 - [256] Edited by: TheMailman on 23/06/2008 19:36:03 They've done something about it, atleast it helped for me. Before the downtime my traffic was still going through limelight and i had disconnections frequently. After todays downtime I've only disconnected once which was very likely to be caused by my end of the side. And all that crying about lost ship... ha ha, after 5 disconnections you can be pretty sure its gonna continue until they say something at the forums, logging in knowing youre gonna get disconnected doesnt negate legit kill. (btw I've had a illegit lost or two too, no reimb ) edit: ninja grammar
BRooDJeRo THE BROOD	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:38:00 - [257] I havent had any kicks sofar, but it sounds like some1 needs to upgrade his gear for peektimes.... __________________________________ BRooDJeRo CEO - THE BROOD
PtolemaiosPlato Solomon DEFCON. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:39:00 - [258] Edited by: PtolemaiosPlato Solomon on 23/06/2008 19:44:56 Someone told me, that certain ISPs have started (on request by certain governments and large international companies) to add their own bits to the data transfer, allowing them to analyze what their clients are doing on the Internet. The problem is (besides loss of privacy rights), that this new technology is not fully compatible with those ISPs, which do not support this technology. That is where the interruptions and faults in data transfer occur, because the servers of the ISPs not supporting this spy technology cannot handle the tracking bits and consider them as regular bits (of data, instead as of request of information about the direction of the other bits and their contents). To use this new technology is a certain trend now, more and more ISPs are urged to do so. You won't read too much in the mass media about it, but if you have followed up during the last years, you got some information on that. But those informations never stayed too long on the Internet. When most ISPs are using this new technology (a kind of protocol), then the connection issues which are caused by faulty information interpretation will be resolved. Greetings, thanks for reading, Sven Location: 18¦ 0'33.80"N - 76¦46'52.66"W - Elevation 344 ft Your sig lacks visible EVE-related content. Email us at [email protected] for more information -HornFrog
Jiggardin	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:48:00 - [259] Originally by: PtolemaiosPlato Solomon Edited by: PtolemaiosPlato Solomon on 23/06/2008 19:44:56 Someone told me, that certain ISPs have started (on request by certain governments and large international companies) to add their own bits to the data transfer, allowing them to analyze what their clients are doing on the Internet. The problem is (besides loss of privacy rights), that this new technology is not fully compatible with those ISPs, which do not support this technology. That is where the interruptions and faults in data transfer occur, because the servers of the ISPs not supporting this spy technology cannot handle the tracking bits and consider them as regular bits (of data, instead as of request of information about the direction of the other bits and their contents). To use this new technology is a certain trend now, more and more ISPs are urged to do so. You won't read too much in the mass media about it, but if you have followed up during the last years, you got some information on that. But those informations never stayed too long on the Internet. When most ISPs are using this new technology (a kind of protocol), then the connection issues which are caused by faulty information interpretation will be resolved. sorry, but no traffic is routed through servers. not at tear1 carriers. at least not everywhere in the world :P (hello usa) :)
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:48:00 - [260] Thank you, CCP! Much appreciated response. Cheers, -K

JoeBear770	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:49:00 - [261] Got dropped/kicked several times yesterday......didn't lose any ships, though I was mid-mission and had to keep going back for drones! My petition was responded to quickly which directed me to this thread. Using Verizon DSL on the eastern seaboard USA. Yes, I did download the new patch.
Kaakao Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:50:00 - [262] Originally by: Aidia Nestor You must be on the error-side of the Atlantic ;) Here in Sweden I haven't had any disconnects at all. My ISP is Telia Some time last year, telia ****** up all connections from apparently the whole scandinavia (+finland) to eve, wow and couple other online games. :) ----
Zanpt	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:55:00 - [263] Originally by: Alpha Otoko About UDP and WHY it wouldn't work for EVE. Everything you say about UDP is true, but you missed the important part of my message: It could be done even more effectively by using UDP instead of TCP *and writing their own equivalent of TCP with much more flexible treatment of virtual connections than TCP typically offers.* You are clearly not a programmer with any familiarity with TCP/IP application programming. Anyone can write application code to use UDP packets and implement their own *transmission control* -- the "TC" part of "TCP". The programmer can number the packets, attach checksums, process acknowledgement and negative acknowledgement messages from the remote host, retransmit lost messages, etc. In short, all the things TCP does. After all, the packets TCP uses are also "send and forget" except that TCP tracks them, retransmits them, reorders them, and generally maintains a reliable link unless and until it gets a certain class of fatal return to its efforts to send packets to the other host. When TCP gets a fatal return it has no resiliance -- it throws up its hands and returns a fatal status to the application using it. Homebrewed transmission control, though, would be free to handle link and packet problems any way it wishes. Much simpler would be my first suggestion, to use TCP but to build in much more resilience. TCP is like phone calls. If you phone someone and the connection is lost, do you abandon your efforts or do you place the call again? In the case of Eve it would also be necessary to smarten the server side to avoid throwing away user session information on loss of a TCP connection and process new TCP connections that identify themselves as reconnections. It's a bit of work but far short of rocket science.
Rashid Starfury Universal-Corp The Nexus Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:58:00 - [264] Due to my work, I have not had any significant time to play in the last 48 hours. However, every time I logged in, I got in and I suffered no disconnects. I live in Southern California and connect thru a small cable company which provides both cable and internet service. CCP has provided answers where they could and blaming them for LimeLights issues is inappropriate. As for the mini-patch, I downloaded and patched the first day it was available and I have not had any problems with it or disconnects since the application of the patch. So it is not all Western United States, it is not CCP, so stop making assumptions and check with your own ISPs if the problem continues. I am logged into EVE-Online right now and it seems to be very stable. Rashid Starfury
Leelo Atriedes Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.23 19:59:00 - [265] Originally by: Kaakao Originally by: Aidia Nestor You must be on the error-side of the Atlantic ;) Here in Sweden I haven't had any disconnects at all. My ISP is Telia Some time last year, telia ****** up all connections from apparently the whole scandinavia (+finland) to eve, wow and couple other online games. :) You mean the issue with Cogent? Not really all Telias fault if you ask me.
Kaakao Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:00:00 - [266] Originally by: Leelo Atriedes Originally by: Kaakao Originally by: Aidia Nestor You must be on the error-side of the Atlantic ;) Here in Sweden I haven't had any disconnects at all. My ISP is Telia Some time last year, telia ****** up all connections from apparently the whole scandinavia (+finland) to eve, wow and couple other online games. :) You mean the issue with Cogent? Not really all Telias fault if you ask me. I didn't investigate it too much, my isp just told me that Telia is the one to blame. ----
Red Rabin	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:00:00 - [267] Quote: We apologise again for the fault in the subtitles. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked. There are still connectivity problems. Keep looking please.
Orian NiKunni	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:07:00 - [268] As of now I have been on for nearly 3 hours and have yet to be disconnected, last night i was dc'd about 3-4 times an hour if not more at its peak when i decided to log off and call it a night. The jury is still out on this, but atm it appears, at least from my end, that the situation has been resolved. Thats not to say that others are still experiancing issues, so at least there has been a step in the right direction.
Mos7Wan7ed	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:07:00 - [269] Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 23/06/2008 20:08:06 Does the remaining connections CCP has carry enough bandwidth to maintain all the client connections?
Leelo Atriedes Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:09:00 - [270] Originally by: Kaakao Originally by: Leelo Atriedes Originally by: Kaakao Originally by: Aidia Nestor You must be on the error-side of the Atlantic ;) Here in Sweden I haven't had any disconnects at all. My ISP is Telia Some time last year, telia ****** up all connections from apparently the whole scandinavia (+finland) to eve, wow and couple other online games. :) You mean the issue with Cogent? Not really all Telias fault if you ask me. I didn't investigate it too much, my isp just told me that Telia is the one to blame. This may or may not inform you more: Google Telia + Cogent Some blame Telia, some blame the other party involved.



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