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CasC	Posted - 2004.08.09 02:31:00 - [1261] Well i gotta say that i like that the Exequror have gotten a better role, it was like the most worthless piece of junk before now you can use it as a little hauler ;) i like it :D
CasC	Posted - 2004.08.09 02:31:00 - [1262] Well i gotta say that i like that the Exequror have gotten a better role, it was like the most worthless piece of junk before now you can use it as a little hauler ;) i like it :D
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2004.08.09 08:07:00 - [1263] Originally by: Selim I'm worried about Celestis, Arbitrator, and Augoror not being used still. Bellicose too. Bellicose needs a boost in drone space, I think. Boost from 800 to 1000. Celestis.. I'm not sure. Well, it seems that Celestis should be a pretty nice ranged sniper now, with the range bonus and the fact that it's the only Gallente cruiser with launchers. Since Gallente craft are usually geared towards close range combat, this gives Celestis a nice unique slot. Not sure if it will actually be used or not, but still, it looks good in theory.
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2004.08.09 08:07:00 - [1264] Originally by: Selim I'm worried about Celestis, Arbitrator, and Augoror not being used still. Bellicose too. Bellicose needs a boost in drone space, I think. Boost from 800 to 1000. Celestis.. I'm not sure. Well, it seems that Celestis should be a pretty nice ranged sniper now, with the range bonus and the fact that it's the only Gallente cruiser with launchers. Since Gallente craft are usually geared towards close range combat, this gives Celestis a nice unique slot. Not sure if it will actually be used or not, but still, it looks good in theory.
0seeker0	Posted - 2004.08.09 10:09:00 - [1265] If ships like the celestis are to be used more, what we need is a bunus considering the race of the character. Say, if im gallante and i fly a celestis, its bonuses could be doubled (would make the rax to good though) this would strongly encourage me to use a celestis for long range missile work instead of training caldari and using them. San. Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware. Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
0seeker0	Posted - 2004.08.09 10:09:00 - [1266] If ships like the celestis are to be used more, what we need is a bunus considering the race of the character. Say, if im gallante and i fly a celestis, its bonuses could be doubled (would make the rax to good though) this would strongly encourage me to use a celestis for long range missile work instead of training caldari and using them. San. Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware. Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.08.09 11:28:00 - [1267] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 09/08/2004 11:38:22 I dont think the rupture second bonus is fair. Check it out in this form and see if you can see what is wrong with this pattern: Maller Existing: 10% bonus to Energy Turret capacitor use per level Addon: 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level Moa Existing: 10% bonus to Hybrid Turret optimal range per level Addon: 5% bonus to shield boosting per level Thorax Existing: 5% bonus to Hybrid Turret damage per level. Addon: 5% less cap nerf for MWD's per level. Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level See how the pattern changes for the rupture? For the first 3 top of the line cruisers they still get their addon bonus if they dont use the races normal weapon system. They are all nonweapon bonuses. I think the pattern should be extended and the rupture should have a nonweapon addon bonus to fit the first threes pattern. edit: And also isnt +5% PER a level of resist too strong? on armor or shields? I mean I might as well switch to a maller now cause +15% resist is equivalent to adding another slot to the maller. I would think +9% at level 3 skill would be more appropriate given the other bonus not adding the equivalent of a full slot to their ships.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.08.09 11:28:00 - [1268] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 09/08/2004 11:38:22 I dont think the rupture second bonus is fair. Check it out in this form and see if you can see what is wrong with this pattern: Maller Existing: 10% bonus to Energy Turret capacitor use per level Addon: 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level Moa Existing: 10% bonus to Hybrid Turret optimal range per level Addon: 5% bonus to shield boosting per level Thorax Existing: 5% bonus to Hybrid Turret damage per level. Addon: 5% less cap nerf for MWD's per level. Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level See how the pattern changes for the rupture? For the first 3 top of the line cruisers they still get their addon bonus if they dont use the races normal weapon system. They are all nonweapon bonuses. I think the pattern should be extended and the rupture should have a nonweapon addon bonus to fit the first threes pattern. edit: And also isnt +5% PER a level of resist too strong? on armor or shields? I mean I might as well switch to a maller now cause +15% resist is equivalent to adding another slot to the maller. I would think +9% at level 3 skill would be more appropriate given the other bonus not adding the equivalent of a full slot to their ships.
Perry	Posted - 2004.08.09 12:18:00 - [1269] Originally by: Qutsemnie And also isnt +5% PER a level of resist too strong? on armor or shields? I mean I might as well switch to a maller now cause +15% resist is equivalent to adding another slot to the maller. I would think +9% at level 3 skill would be more appropriate given the other bonus not adding the equivalent of a full slot to their ships. Rupture gets an uber-damagemod for free (3 lowslots at least) Moa gets an Shildboost amplifier and an tracking comp for free Thorax gets an cap extender for mwd and an damage mod for free. I dont see your point, sorry
Perry	Posted - 2004.08.09 12:18:00 - [1270] Originally by: Qutsemnie And also isnt +5% PER a level of resist too strong? on armor or shields? I mean I might as well switch to a maller now cause +15% resist is equivalent to adding another slot to the maller. I would think +9% at level 3 skill would be more appropriate given the other bonus not adding the equivalent of a full slot to their ships. Rupture gets an uber-damagemod for free (3 lowslots at least) Moa gets an Shildboost amplifier and an tracking comp for free Thorax gets an cap extender for mwd and an damage mod for free. I dont see your point, sorry
Thesalaus	Posted - 2004.08.09 13:49:00 - [1271] Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level Those bonuses probably will make the Rupture if not the most damaging cruiser a very close 2nd. You're looking at with a lvl 4 skill in cruiser a 20% damage boost and a 20% rof boost. Man that's awesome. No other cruiser or ship that I know of has that kind of double damage bonus. Oberon Inc Website Oberon Sales Page Pain
Thesalaus	Posted - 2004.08.09 13:49:00 - [1272] Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level Those bonuses probably will make the Rupture if not the most damaging cruiser a very close 2nd. You're looking at with a lvl 4 skill in cruiser a 20% damage boost and a 20% rof boost. Man that's awesome. No other cruiser or ship that I know of has that kind of double damage bonus. Oberon Inc Website Oberon Sales Page Pain
Selim	Posted - 2004.08.09 13:58:00 - [1273] Edited by: Selim on 09/08/2004 14:02:43 We'll wait and see about the Maller. But I think the bonus is okay... I'm thinking about the Augoror being a cheap support cruiser in the future. It'll have more armor than a Maller at max skills for both of the ships. Its damage will leave alot of wanting, of course. People may use it to give cap or shield support to a friendly battleship. But the Arbitrator needs to drop the laser bonus, and get, instead, an armor bonus. I'm thinking the same bonus as the maller. Celestis being a long range sniper boat? Sounds nice... but will people use it over the Moa? Bellicose for missile spammage and frigate support. As I said earlier, it needs its dronebay boosted to 1000. It seems like its a jack-of-all-trades which is useful for supporting a frigate wing. But again... will people use it...? For the Optimal Range bonus just now, I think its not a good idea. The Bellicose description says it is a frigate support cruiser. And the optimal range bonus only really applies to artillery. I suggest its removed in favor of the explosive missile damage OR a projectile tracking speed bonus. Thinking more, the tracking speed bonus would be even better, it would help autocannons track frigates. Other than that I like the changes, TomB.
Selim	Posted - 2004.08.09 13:58:00 - [1274] Edited by: Selim on 09/08/2004 14:02:43 We'll wait and see about the Maller. But I think the bonus is okay... I'm thinking about the Augoror being a cheap support cruiser in the future. It'll have more armor than a Maller at max skills for both of the ships. Its damage will leave alot of wanting, of course. People may use it to give cap or shield support to a friendly battleship. But the Arbitrator needs to drop the laser bonus, and get, instead, an armor bonus. I'm thinking the same bonus as the maller. Celestis being a long range sniper boat? Sounds nice... but will people use it over the Moa? Bellicose for missile spammage and frigate support. As I said earlier, it needs its dronebay boosted to 1000. It seems like its a jack-of-all-trades which is useful for supporting a frigate wing. But again... will people use it...? For the Optimal Range bonus just now, I think its not a good idea. The Bellicose description says it is a frigate support cruiser. And the optimal range bonus only really applies to artillery. I suggest its removed in favor of the explosive missile damage OR a projectile tracking speed bonus. Thinking more, the tracking speed bonus would be even better, it would help autocannons track frigates. Other than that I like the changes, TomB.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2004.08.09 14:07:00 - [1275] Originally by: Thesalaus Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level Those bonuses probably will make the Rupture if not the most damaging cruiser a very close 2nd. You're looking at with a lvl 4 skill in cruiser a 20% damage boost and a 20% rof boost. Man that's awesome. No other cruiser or ship that I know of has that kind of double damage bonus. Other than the tempest you mean ? giving the top minnie cruiser exactly the same boni as the top battleship doesn't seem to crazy to me . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2004.08.09 14:07:00 - [1276] Originally by: Thesalaus Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level Those bonuses probably will make the Rupture if not the most damaging cruiser a very close 2nd. You're looking at with a lvl 4 skill in cruiser a 20% damage boost and a 20% rof boost. Man that's awesome. No other cruiser or ship that I know of has that kind of double damage bonus. Other than the tempest you mean ? giving the top minnie cruiser exactly the same boni as the top battleship doesn't seem to crazy to me . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Selim	Posted - 2004.08.09 14:42:00 - [1277] The Rupture bonus is fine. The Tempest has those bonuses, and look at it now, it STILL sucks, but lets not get into that. The Rupture, sure, it will do good damage with projectiles. What else would you propose? Optimal range? No. It would be useless for autocannons.
Selim	Posted - 2004.08.09 14:42:00 - [1278] The Rupture bonus is fine. The Tempest has those bonuses, and look at it now, it STILL sucks, but lets not get into that. The Rupture, sure, it will do good damage with projectiles. What else would you propose? Optimal range? No. It would be useless for autocannons.
Diana Merris	Posted - 2004.08.09 14:47:00 - [1279] Originally by: Thesalaus Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level Those bonuses probably will make the Rupture if not the most damaging cruiser a very close 2nd. You're looking at with a lvl 4 skill in cruiser a 20% damage boost and a 20% rof boost. Man that's awesome. No other cruiser or ship that I know of has that kind of double damage bonus. Sorry but not even close. The Maller with 5 heavy pulse will still outdamage it. If you looked back at the weapon balance thread you would see that TomB's reason for not increasing the damage on projectile ammo to match the damage of hybred charges or laser crystals was that the Tempest (which also gets the RoF and Damage bonuses) would do almost as much damage as a Megathron (which has a damage bonus) at lvl 5 skill. Note the word "almost" and that it was at lvl 5 using upgraded ammo. Since TomB considered that too much damage the ammo was not upgraded so now it doesn't even get to be "almost". Even with the damage bonus my Rupture will still have 3 launchers on it because they will still outdamage the guns.
Diana Merris	Posted - 2004.08.09 14:47:00 - [1280] Originally by: Thesalaus Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level Those bonuses probably will make the Rupture if not the most damaging cruiser a very close 2nd. You're looking at with a lvl 4 skill in cruiser a 20% damage boost and a 20% rof boost. Man that's awesome. No other cruiser or ship that I know of has that kind of double damage bonus. Sorry but not even close. The Maller with 5 heavy pulse will still outdamage it. If you looked back at the weapon balance thread you would see that TomB's reason for not increasing the damage on projectile ammo to match the damage of hybred charges or laser crystals was that the Tempest (which also gets the RoF and Damage bonuses) would do almost as much damage as a Megathron (which has a damage bonus) at lvl 5 skill. Note the word "almost" and that it was at lvl 5 using upgraded ammo. Since TomB considered that too much damage the ammo was not upgraded so now it doesn't even get to be "almost". Even with the damage bonus my Rupture will still have 3 launchers on it because they will still outdamage the guns.
Galton Grimm	Posted - 2004.08.09 15:50:00 - [1281] Edited by: Galton Grimm on 09/08/2004 15:53:17 Edited by: Galton Grimm on 09/08/2004 15:53:00 Originally by: Qutsemnie Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level I think the pattern should be extended and the rupture should have a nonweapon addon bonus to fit the first threes pattern. You don't want that bonus? Ok I'll take it then, please give the Thorax +5% hybrid dmg and +5% hybrid rof please. I mean, you know, if you're not using it.
Galton Grimm	Posted - 2004.08.09 15:50:00 - [1282] Edited by: Galton Grimm on 09/08/2004 15:53:17 Edited by: Galton Grimm on 09/08/2004 15:53:00 Originally by: Qutsemnie Rupture Existing: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret firing speed per level Addon: 5% bonus to Projectile Turret damage per level I think the pattern should be extended and the rupture should have a nonweapon addon bonus to fit the first threes pattern. You don't want that bonus? Ok I'll take it then, please give the Thorax +5% hybrid dmg and +5% hybrid rof please. I mean, you know, if you're not using it.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.08.09 16:08:00 - [1283] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 09/08/2004 16:19:18 Heres one of the basic issues: The stabber can mount 2 missle slots. The rupture can mount 3 missle slots. So one supposes that that the rupture is intended to have more missle power then the stabber. Yet its second bonus is disharmonious with that. Half the weapon systems on a rupture can be missles yet the second bonus makes it seem like a turret specialist. Its not in keeping with the minmater philosophy. Give the turret ships turret bonuses. The rupture can be 50% missle boat. Its a jack of all trades technology with even parts missle, turret, drone and its bonuses dont reflect that. Also I find that when you mount a 1600mm plate in the low slot I dont find the projectile options useful. And of course most people with a 1600mm plate in the low slot dont use medium guns so the second bonus is pretty useless. That doesnt seem relevant but its what tipped me off that the rupture was going to have the most specialized pair of bonuses in the cruiser game. All of its bonuses go to exactly one type of system. Thats not fair. No other pair of cruiser bonuses go to exactly one system. All other pairs of cruiser bonuses go to two systems. The importance is its much easier to avoid a worthless bonus if both bonuses go to two different systems. Thats true for all other cruises but the rupture. Please give the rupture a bonus that reflects the even mix of technologies in the minmater ships.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.08.09 16:08:00 - [1284] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 09/08/2004 16:19:18 Heres one of the basic issues: The stabber can mount 2 missle slots. The rupture can mount 3 missle slots. So one supposes that that the rupture is intended to have more missle power then the stabber. Yet its second bonus is disharmonious with that. Half the weapon systems on a rupture can be missles yet the second bonus makes it seem like a turret specialist. Its not in keeping with the minmater philosophy. Give the turret ships turret bonuses. The rupture can be 50% missle boat. Its a jack of all trades technology with even parts missle, turret, drone and its bonuses dont reflect that. Also I find that when you mount a 1600mm plate in the low slot I dont find the projectile options useful. And of course most people with a 1600mm plate in the low slot dont use medium guns so the second bonus is pretty useless. That doesnt seem relevant but its what tipped me off that the rupture was going to have the most specialized pair of bonuses in the cruiser game. All of its bonuses go to exactly one type of system. Thats not fair. No other pair of cruiser bonuses go to exactly one system. All other pairs of cruiser bonuses go to two systems. The importance is its much easier to avoid a worthless bonus if both bonuses go to two different systems. Thats true for all other cruises but the rupture. Please give the rupture a bonus that reflects the even mix of technologies in the minmater ships.
Nafri	Posted - 2004.08.09 16:48:00 - [1285] why adding a velocity bonus to caracal? with missles changes missles should be faster after all and missles velocity bonus pretty much sucks Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.08.09 16:48:00 - [1286] why adding a velocity bonus to caracal? with missles changes missles should be faster after all and missles velocity bonus pretty much sucks Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.08.09 16:54:00 - [1287] Originally by: TomB The Caracal missile velocity bonus is 10%, the description was wrong for it, same for Raven and Scorpion. still a sucky bonus and a shame for a BS amd after nerfing the missles speed giving the caldari a missle speed bonus to equal it isnt very nice, mkay? Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.08.09 16:54:00 - [1288] Originally by: TomB The Caracal missile velocity bonus is 10%, the description was wrong for it, same for Raven and Scorpion. still a sucky bonus and a shame for a BS amd after nerfing the missles speed giving the caldari a missle speed bonus to equal it isnt very nice, mkay? Wanna fly with me?
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.08.09 17:05:00 - [1289] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 09/08/2004 17:07:34 Why do all the cruisers need second bonuses at once. That seems very chaotic. I suggest that only the 4 top of the line cruisers get 2nd bonuses at first. Get that balanced then try to do the rest of the soup in an organized fashion.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.08.09 17:05:00 - [1290] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 09/08/2004 17:07:34 Why do all the cruisers need second bonuses at once. That seems very chaotic. I suggest that only the 4 top of the line cruisers get 2nd bonuses at first. Get that balanced then try to do the rest of the soup in an organized fashion.

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