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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 47 post(s)
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:18:00 - [271] Originally by: Serenity Star As for your last point, why cant both be true? You try and find a way to empire, so you go through a wormhole, nope that leads to another wormhole system, so you keep going and going until you find a wormhole that links back to a gate system. When you try and get back to the wormhole system you were in, one of the wormholes has collapsed due to time/some one else using it. The part that concerns me is if each wormhole system does have a guaranteed link back to the gate network, because then why would you continue on that journey past the first jump. You go through a WH, it leads to another WH system so you go back through it into the system you came from and try and find another WH that does lead to empire. You're not thinking in metagaming terms.. The solo player might see a wormhole leading to an unknown destination: it could either be a trip back to empire or yet another unexlpored system. Solo player jumps through. Another wormhole system. The choice to stay and scan for a WH to a normal system, or jump back (mass permitting) to find one there is completely irrelevant. The corp/alliance scans down a wormhole. They send an alt through, it leads to another WH system. No big deal. Another wormhole system is scanned down, this one leads to Agil. All 'lost in space' alts just pod themselves back to empire, travel to Agil and return to the first system where the corp has an established presence - along with POS fueler industrials, more battleships and anyone else looking to hook up that didn't.
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:18:00 - [272] 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. 4: Not bad job CCP. Not bad at all.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:20:00 - [273] Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own!
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:20:00 - [274] Originally by: ardik Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own! It's not instanced. C.
Ordais	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:21:00 - [275] because maybe the system you got in is not so good as the other one. and both have a way back to empire, maybe one has the better way (goes to a place near you and not deep 0.0). many reasons. and to add to that, it wont always be so easy to get things into the system. if you have to go to a hostile system i want to see you going there to bring in pos-fules, as you can be sure the hostiles will spot the WH too. i'm more worried about that if you dont like where the WH is going, you just "consume" it till you get a better exit point. thats why i would put in random time limits to the WH not consumption on mass.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:23:00 - [276] Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes. It is really possible to get stuck out there. If you lose your ship and have no-one flying backup who has a probe launcher and probes, or if you run out of probes, leave them behind or otherwise end up without a means to find your way home, the self-destruct button and your hopefully updated clone are your new best friends. Awesome. IMO, it just wouldn't be Eve without the possibility of getting stuck. You know, the whole risk/reward thing, and the harsh, unforgiving universe thing. I'm very much looking forward to this, as it's adding one of the things that Eve is missing: a sense of the unknown and real exploration. It'd be cool if it'd be possible to live out in uncharted space semi-permanently, like someone stated. There would have to be some way to manufacture things, though. Maybe bring back the concept of industrial ships as...industrial ships? You know, making them able to build things, but probably very inefficiently/slowly? It wouldn't be practical in explored space, but in unexplored space, it just might.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:24:00 - [277] Originally by: Serenity Star Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. So a WH system does not nessecarly have a link back to the gate network.... YES! Greyscale... your blog... we needz it! CCP WHISPER DID NOT CLARIFY THINGS. What he said does NOT prevent the reverse exploration metagaming technique I described earlier. Not being able to get back without further exploration is MEANINGLESS. Being able to find your way to a particular system by having friends tell you where in the 5000 normal systems of EVE it links with is not.
BenjaminBarker Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:27:00 - [278] So... Will there be ice?
Zilli Zilp	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:27:00 - [279] Problem with 2-way wormholes Let's say you are in a good system and that you have some ships available in the system also and that you gathered some goodies during time and that you want to move out now. Now assume that the original wormhole which you used to enter the system closed because mass/time limit. Now a new wormhole spawns (at least one). Assume that this new wormhole leads to a completely unfavourable region where you do not want to end up with all the goodies you got. Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. It shouldn't be difficult to calculate how many jumps and which ships you need to do that. Since there will be always at least one wormhole in each wormhole system, a new wormhole will spawn in 'your' system and you have a chance that it will end up in a more favourable region. If the new wormhole ends again in an unfavourable region, repeat until you got a 'good' wormhole. This way you can more or less easily get wormholes which will be all in your favour. 1-way wormholes won't allow this mechanism but they would make logistics for any pos-related things really difficult!
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:27:00 - [280] Damnit, I'm going to put this into the simplest terms possible. 1-way wormholes "Hey guys where are you?" "Wormhole system, we got 5 people through" "Can I join you?" "Sure, wander around the 1000 unknown systems in the hope that you stumble into us." 2-way wormholes "Hey guys where are you?" "Wormhole system, we got 5 people through" "Can I join you?" "Sure, go to Agil. The wormhole links there. Bring POS fuel and get everyone else to come. If they can't fit through we'll just wait for another WH to open up elsewhere."

Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:28:00 - [281] If you don't answer in this thread, can the next dev blog address what result you will see if you do a locator agent search on someone inside a wormhole?
Raneru Euphoria Released Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:28:00 - [282] Are the entry/exit wormholes 1 way or 2 way? For example if I am in wormhole space and I go through an exit into hostile known-space and the wormhole still allows the mass of my ship though, can I go back and wait for another wormhole to form somewhere else? BTW, this wormhole concept gives Eve so much room for expansion its mind boggling. Will these unknown systems eventually be the path to Jove space? Will we find new human bloodlines ? Will the new NPCs invade known-space?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:29:00 - [283] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. (sorry if it was asked) Okay so if you can put a mothership (or a rorqual), can they use the clone vatbay ?
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:30:00 - [284] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: ardik Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own! It's not instanced. C. When you add thousands of generic systems to an already barren and generic 0.0, and then think this will lead to anything but, in practice, instanced PVE, then you're just ****ing stupid. C.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:30:00 - [285] Originally by: Raneru Are the entry/exit wormholes 1 way or 2 way? For example if I am in wormhole space and I go through an exit into hostile known-space and the wormhole still allows the mass of my ship though, can I go back and wait for another wormhole to form somewhere else? That's what I'm trying to get answered here, as it determines whether or not people will be able to concentrate in the best systems and have territorial fights. Frankly, if they allow 2-way wormholes this whole thing is going to end up like the drone regions within 6 months.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:32:00 - [286] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Serenity Star As for your last point, why cant both be true? You try and find a way to empire, so you go through a wormhole, nope that leads to another wormhole system, so you keep going and going until you find a wormhole that links back to a gate system. When you try and get back to the wormhole system you were in, one of the wormholes has collapsed due to time/some one else using it. The part that concerns me is if each wormhole system does have a guaranteed link back to the gate network, because then why would you continue on that journey past the first jump. You go through a WH, it leads to another WH system so you go back through it into the system you came from and try and find another WH that does lead to empire. You're not thinking in metagaming terms.. The solo player might see a wormhole leading to an unknown destination: it could either be a trip back to empire or yet another unexlpored system. Solo player jumps through. Another wormhole system. The choice to stay and scan for a WH to a normal system, or jump back (mass permitting) to find one there is completely irrelevant. The corp/alliance scans down a wormhole. They send an alt through, it leads to another WH system. No big deal. Another wormhole system is scanned down, this one leads to Agil. All 'lost in space' alts just pod themselves back to empire, travel to Agil and return to the first system where the corp has an established presence - along with POS fueler industrials, more battleships and anyone else looking to hook up that didn't. This entire time the WH that links "their" WH system to the second WH system that links to Agil has a timer running and possibly people going through it reducing the mass limit. Although I can see where you are coming from I think we will have to wait for greyscales blog. Until then we will most likely not find out what the average timer will be. They have indicated that you may even be able to get a MS through, and a single Megathron BS is ~98million in mass vs a Helios at ~1.2 million for mass. Yea I can see where that may lead to problems with alliances setting up a POS and having it be practically permanent. Shall just wait for the next blog I guess. For an alliance it would just be a waiting game, they would have to wait until they find that proper route with WH's that have enough mass limit to move the supplies they need.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:33:00 - [287] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Serenity Star Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. So a WH system does not nessecarly have a link back to the gate network.... YES! Greyscale... your blog... we needz it! CCP WHISPER DID NOT CLARIFY THINGS. What he said does NOT prevent the reverse exploration metagaming technique I described earlier. Not being able to get back without further exploration is MEANINGLESS. Being able to find your way to a particular system by having friends tell you where in the 5000 normal systems of EVE it links with is not. But from the sounds of things these wormholes will be temporary - and their links to empire equally temporary. Lets say WH1 links to Agil - every one flies to Agil and jumps as many ships through as they can. That WH then closes (its mass is exhausted) - the 'Agil' link no longer exists - the next available wormhole link might go to EC, Amarr, PC9: there's no way of telling until you use it. The logistical effort to establish a corp presence in this unknown space isnt impossible, but its going to be rather difficult. C.
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:33:00 - [288] I can see it now: Captains log, Stardate 50893.5 (Star Trek lolz)... we discovered a blackhole in the unknown zone... dare we say we thought we'd try and enter it but we decided to go to the pub on a gallente station instead. Furthermore to our adventures across space the final frontier these are voyages of the starship.... who am i kiddin'! Anyway we decided to fly around a system when we descovered a Wormhole... My crew proceeded by letting out "ooohh" "ahhh" "look at the shiny!" before someone said "dont get too close or you'll be sucked off!" We got too close and in we went... now we are in a system and we have no data in the ships database! We moved onto the nearest planet only to descover a the remains of a colony of what seems to be humans with spikes potruding out of their heads! These beings were destroyed some time ago! Crewman: "Sir, we have kling-ons on the starboard bow!" Captain: "those are Fedo's you idiot, they clean help clean ships on the inside and out! Kinda like my mom! (See EVE Chronicles for FEDO) Crewman: "Sorry Sir!" Watch out for... EVE Adventures... coming soon!
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:34:00 - [289] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. (sorry if it was asked) Okay so if you can put a mothership (or a rorqual), can they use the clone vatbay ? Originally by: Prism X So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. Wink Will there be ice?
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:35:00 - [290] Originally by: CCP Whisper The new scanner system, new probes and probe launchers will all use the existing skills you have trained up. The aim is to make the level you have trained a skill up to still be relevant, so if you have invested time in getting a certain skill up, you will still get the benefit of this. Please take into account that balancing of the system has yet to be completed, so at this point we cannot commit to exactly how this will look. Allow me to translate: its **ing PROBING bro, it's going to suck balls no matter what we do! but hey, we've added some extra timers and to balance that ** OUT so you wont be able to FARM sites at least! so stick to high sec missions, it'll pay better long-term anyway and with the probe changes its not like anyone will be able to find you!

Mad Crafter Multiverse Corporation Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:35:00 - [291] If I got lost in wormhole space for a week it would be the best week ever! I'm just glad drones don't run outa ammo.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:35:00 - [292] Someone tell ardik that he is awful at posting and needs to stop it.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:36:00 - [293] imagine i said something about everything ccp has released the last 12 months has been pre-nerfed and forgotten to ensure no one actually uses it so dont get too excited i would have typed it in but im not sure how i'd get it in there, you know?
Zilli Zilp	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:36:00 - [294] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Okay so if you can put a mothership (or a rorqual), can they use the clone vatbay ? No other way to reach wormhole space than via wormholes. No cynojumping, no clonejumping. At least in the first version.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:37:00 - [295] Originally by: ardik Originally by: Cailais Originally by: ardik Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own! It's not instanced. C. When you add thousands of generic systems to an already barren and generic 0.0, and then think this will lead to anything but, in practice, instanced PVE, then you're just **ing stupid. C. An "instance" is a replicated game area for only one group of players. Anyone entering that area joins a seperate (universe) game area. i.e you jump into amarr, so do I, but we are in different 'instances' and cannot interact or even 'see' one another. Linkage Who's stupid now huh? C. Originally by:** Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:38:00 - [296] I think the question of viability for large alliances/corps to establish a lasting presence really just comes down to the average timer/mass limits. CCP has pretty clearly stated that WH are 2-way, mass permitting. Although they have not said "they are 2 way", they have said mass may prevent you from returning, which to me (yes me maybe not you) says they are 2 way.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:41:00 - [297] Originally by: Cailais An "instance" is a replicated game area for only one group of players. Anyone entering that area joins a seperate (universe) game area. i.e you jump into amarr, so do I, but we are in different 'instances' and cannot interact or even 'see' one another. Linkage Who's stupid now huh? C. Yeah, who's stupid now ok so it's still you, bummer C.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:42:00 - [298] Originally by: CCP Prism X So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. k Fetchez la vache !
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:43:00 - [299] I think the fears of POS domination of wormhole space is greatly exaggerated, certainly in the short term. My interpretation of how CCP has described access to and from the wormhole systems would not give a POS developer much comfort. From what I gather wormhole space is fixed but its access points are not. What may be a one wormhole jump from known space the first day, may require three jumps the next -- and not from the same starting point. A week later, the jumps might be only two but the ending point might be different. Limiting access to the wormhole via a discovered path might extend the connection life expectancy but even that has some variability and is by no means predicitable. Imagine Alliance A finds a system and sends in enough POS material to make is self-sustaining (assuming Ice is found). Two days later, the wormhole from Alliance A's entry point collapses. Now Alliance A has to find a way to get back there. So unless Alliance A is content to live out its existence in that wormhole system, the desirability to hold that space is limited. Of course you could farm the system and just wait until the wormhole network re-connects you with known space (or non-hostile space). That's a tall order even for dedicated carebears. Des Jardin
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:44:00 - [300] Originally by: Serenity Star This entire time the WH that links "their" WH system to the second WH system that links to Agil has a timer running and possibly people going through it reducing the mass limit. Although I can see where you are coming from I think we will have to wait for greyscales blog. Until then we will most likely not find out what the average timer will be. They have indicated that you may even be able to get a MS through, and a single Megathron BS is ~98million in mass vs a Helios at ~1.2 million for mass. Yea I can see where that may lead to problems with alliances setting up a POS and having it be practically permanent. Shall just wait for the next blog I guess. For an alliance it would just be a waiting game, they would have to wait until they find that proper route with WH's that have enough mass limit to move the supplies they need. First, I would rather not wait for the next blog to explain a critical fact that they've danced around for the last 5-6 dev posts here. Second, a mass and timer limit is meaningless, because the people who are already in that wormhole system will be able to find it and tell their corpmates on the other side where they need to go. Sure there might be competition, and random guys from the empire side might get in. It doesn't prevent a corp from slowly building up a huge presence over the course of days and weeks. Then what? Originally by: Cailais But from the sounds of things these wormholes will be temporary - and their links to empire equally temporary. Lets say WH1 links to Agil - every one flies to Agil and jumps as many ships through as they can. That WH then closes (its mass is exhausted) - the 'Agil' link no longer exists - the next available wormhole link might go to EC, Amarr, PC9: there's no way of telling until you use it. The logistical effort to establish a corp presence in this unknown space isnt impossible, but its going to be rather difficult. C. As I already said before, if 2-way wormholes are possible then that whole randomness thing just makes it a logistical annoyance. Say an alliance wants to get 100 people into 'WH System 1'. They only need to spend a few days or a week scanning to do it. Check this out: They find a link to Agil and 5 people get through. They find another from Jita, 10 get through. The next one is to another wormhole system, so they use an alt to jump back and forth and close it up. Because there is always a wormhole exit in the system, a new one respawns to replace that which was shut down intentionally. Maybe this one leads to another 'known space' system? Another 10 people get through. Is it a hassle? Yes. But that just means corps and alliances that spend the effort gathering to one spot would have a huge advantage over random visitors.



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