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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 47 post(s)
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:03:00 - [391] With regard to the 'two way' K-W / W-K issue it's probably worth considering the frequency that W-systems connect to K-Systems. If its not very often (W > K travel) then any occupying corp/alliance runs the risk of getting stuck. They could conceivably move around within a W-system loop (e.g W <> W <> W) but that's always going to be risky from a logistics point of view. This would also achieve the 'wandering explorer' effect as they searched for the 'rarer' W > K wormhole - or just hope that someone enters their system (K > W) by chance. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:08:00 - [392] Edited by: DaemonBarber on 26/01/2009 22:09:03 Do the WH's only change at downtime, or anytime throughout the day? Can we force a link change by triggering a collapse, or will that just shut it down for today and change it out at the next dt? Will there be ice in W-space? Oh - and you guys rock.
ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:11:00 - [393] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: AleRiperKilt Originally by: Clansworth I would just ask that the Clone and/or cover cyno option be looked at by the team. What it is in the other side of a wormhole could be in the other side of the universe, another dimension or a backdoor to your 0.0 enemy (I suspect Delve is going to have lots of backdoors into Goon strongholds but that is a troll for another thread) My point is even with max out cyno skills you would be out of range from trans-galactic or trans-dimensional travel, unless you can build a TARDIS with T3 stuff Also trying to hold wormhole space would be very risky, once the wormhole closes it could respawn anywhere. So your corp setups a POS and happily farms that system when the access WH respawns next to a 0.0 NPC station full of pirates There hasn't actually been an answer to this. The Devs have not stated that the W-Space is a distant galaxy, or just previously lost/unexplored systems in New Eden, intermixed among the already Stargate Networked K-Space. They have hinted that tech 3 might be 'older tech' from the pre-cataclysmic cultures (Sleepers, et al), in which case, they would have been residing right here in New Eden. If this IS the case, then they certainly WOULD be within range of Jump Travel, if it was to be allowed (as I said, perhaps only the more advanced Covert Cyno would work, limiting ship classes allowed through the 'easy mode' of reentry.) Also, it seems odd then, that Medical Clones would still work from 'across the universe', and if that is, in reality, where these wormholes go to, I would propose that you still take a skill-point loss when being podded from that far away, as there is no way to 'transmit' your updated skill info just prior to death over that distance. Are you saying that all communications channels except Local should also be locked off when you are across the universe? I STRONGLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING POSTED HERE... I'D LIKE A CCP RESPONSE ON THIS :)

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:11:00 - [394] Originally by: Tabare Vazquez Good to know that design has not been finalized six weeks before Apocrypha hits Tranquility. Originally by: Raymon James its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep! For Apocrypha we have been split into teams, each with its own programmers, designers and QA staff (we're working according to Agile and Scrum project management methodology). In the last six weeks my team have built a new scanning system, added 2500 solar systems to New Eden, worked out the mechanics to get pilots there and back and designed the implementation of the game content in the W-systems. The artists attached to the team have created some amazing models and content which is unlike anything you have seen before. You may think six weeks is not a lot of time, but my experience from the last month and a half is that my team is able to complete their tasks and then some. They have responded within a day to problems requiring reworking of game designs. They even managed to put in some improvements that were not strictly speaking part of their remit, simply because they realised it was possible and decided to go for it without ever losing sight of the main objective. I am extremely proud of what we have achieved and I have full confidence in their abilities to not only finish this feature but adapt it based on feedback. We have six weeks to release. This feature will be awesome.

Alz Shado Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:13:00 - [395] Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? á ----------------------------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:13:00 - [396] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Raymon James its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep! For Apocrypha we have been split into teams, each with its own programmers, designers and QA staff. In the last six weeks my team have built a new scanning system, added 2500 solar systems to New Eden, worked out the mechanics to get pilots there and back and designed the implementation of the game content in the W-systems. The artists attached to the team have created some amazing models and content which is unlike anything you have seen before. You may think six weeks is not a lot of time, but my experience from the last month and a half is that my team is able to complete their tasks and then some. I am extremely proud of what we have achieved and I have full confidence in their abilities to not only finish this feature but adapt it based on feedback. Pictures or it never happend! C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:16:00 - [397] Edited by: Roy Batty68 on 26/01/2009 22:16:30 Originally by: CCP Whisper Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions. Now clearly some of you have put your thinking caps on and figured out a way to game the system. Fair enough. I've linked the team to some of the posts about this and we're going to put our thinking caps on to figure out some way to make the minor "logistical annoyance" a bit less minor. All this claiming w-space stuff is dependent on the ability to log alts in the systems. So make logging off in w-space an unknown as well. Logging back into the system you might find that a wormhole has "randomly" found you and shipped you off to some other space while you were gone. For the 23/7 campers, make some sort of accumulating tachyon-dark-energy-ala-STNG-spacey-technobabble reason you might get hoovered up a wormhole while just sitting there in system. Edit: Of course that should accrue over time. /shrug
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:16:00 - [398] Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Explore - find out. C.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:18:00 - [399] Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? No, high sec wormholes will not always be linked just to high sec space and other high sec wormholes. You can quite possibly discover a route from low sec or 0.0 space to high sec space through a series of wormholes. Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that.

Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:18:00 - [400] in my moments of shock and awe at myself realising the time i have spent looking and reading this post for say nearly 4 hours! I havent been online playing EVE because im waiting... waiting for someone to post something about what everything looks like in W-Space... or describe it to me in some way! I could have easily made 50 mill or more but im sooo pulled in by this expansion! So please someone anyone... a picture... video or even a description! Also Jove teasers too :)

weebil	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:18:00 - [401] who is to say the wormhole volume counter will be the same as the one in k space? It may be 1bn m3 in or 500m out before it collapses. That would make it tricky to try close it I don't think it would be worth getting too much logistics in w-space, what if you put up a few large pos in one system and then the k - w gate changed to your enemies system
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:21:00 - [402] Edited by: Demeterus on 26/01/2009 22:21:32 Originally by: CCP Whisper Actually we did think like players. But when you're designing as large and complex a feature as this, sometimes you overlook things. That's why we have devblogs and test servers. And now that you and others have pointed this out, we will revisit this and attempt to make the scenario you described more difficult. This seems to be boiling down into a discussion about whether W-Space should only be playgrounds for pvp'ers, and if that is the case then I'm sorry but W-space will be utterly barren of players. What is the purpose of W-space? A "battleground" system? I fully agree with that W-space should be difficult to get to, and difficult to maintain a presence in, but if logistics becomes impossible then you ARE going to see the largest alliances move in because they are the only ones with enough spatial coverage and personel coverage to be able to use it. High sec corps will not, you will find, move into W-space. Small alliances will not. Since there will be no targets (ie cheap carebear kills) the pirates and the pvp'ers will stick to the known haunts. You may stumble on a lost explorer with something wild in his eyes, and a beard reaching his toes sometimes, but unless there is at least the chance of decent logistics for corps and/or small alliences W-space will remain very, very underutilized. At least, that is my impression of where this discussion is heading, and that is my impression of where you as devs are heading after the points have been raised in this thread. tl;dr; Make W-space hard to get to - but not impossible Make W-space difficult to keep a logistics link to - but not impossible except for the largest entities Petition the authorities to move March 10th till tomorrow - because the awesomeness of all this is off the scale
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:22:00 - [403] Once again, how are wormholes visible? Are they like faction warfare complex beacons? In the sense that once someone has probed it out, it is visible on the overview to all players in the system. OR does the wormhole have to probed out EVERYTIME/previously bookmarked if someone wants to go through it.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:24:00 - [404] Originally by: DaemonBarber Do the WH's only change at downtime, or anytime throughout the day? A wormhole's state will be determined by two factors: Time and Mass. When it spawns, it will be open for a ramdomly determined amount of time and allow a ramdomly determined amout of mass through. When either variable reaches zero, the wormhole collapses. Wormholes will also have a similar despawn timer as exploration sites, so if they are never found they will collapse and respawn elsewhere. Originally by: DaemonBarber Can we force a link change by triggering a collapse, or will that just shut it down for today and change it out at the next dt? Don't know the answer to this one off-hand. I'll have to poke Greyscale about this. Originally by: DaemonBarber Will there be ice in W-space? There may be ice in W-space. Whether it is of the type you need to run the type of tower you've dragged into the system is another matter. As is whether the belt will remain in the system all the time. Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. Originally by: DaemonBarber Oh - and you guys rock. Thanks. You players aren't so bad yourself.

ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:24:00 - [405] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? No, high sec wormholes will not always be linked just to high sec space and other high sec wormholes. You can quite possibly discover a route from low sec or 0.0 space to high sec space through a series of wormholes. Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. You could add a game mechanic that states if a capital ship such as a carrier enters a high sec system that it a declaration of war and henceforth it be destroyed by the faction controlling the space! Example: Archon goes to W-Space and then goes through a wormhole leading to K-space such as the 'Amarr Home System' which if i remember correctly is a 1.0 system then the carrier would be shot at by every law enforcement and Amarr faction ship available until it is taken out! Also adding webs and scrams to concord that can stop a carrier moving would help! It could also be declared an instant war target so that any player from any faction or race may attack it without prejudice and no status hit. In fact you could get a bonus for just helping to destroy it!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:27:00 - [406] Originally by: CCP Whisper Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. Now, I know this is a bit beyond the scope of wormholes. But does this mean that with this new AI, the NPCs, or at least the wormhole NPCs are not necessarily going to automatically be hostile on contact all the time? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:28:00 - [407] Originally by: Demeterus Make W-space hard to get to - but not impossible Make W-space difficult to keep a logistics link to - but not impossible except for the largest entities Petition the authorities to move March 10th till tomorrow - because the awesomeness of all this is off the scale This is pretty much what we're aiming for (although getting the 10th of March moved would be a bureaucratic nightmare), albeit your definition of "hard, but not impossible" will likely differ from mine. I would also replace "largest entities" with "most determined entities". We've seen several small corporations successfully manage to mount large-scale endeavours in the past. Who knows, some of the high sec corporations and small alliances may surprise all of us.

Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:28:00 - [408] Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:29:00 - [409] oh man, npcs that warp around and follow you throughout the system perhaps?? - MY LATEST VIDEO - FRIGANK 4

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:29:00 - [410] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea.


ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:30:00 - [411] I think once this patch has been made ill be hunting the wormholes down and then going to W-space in search of treasures! I dont care if i go there and come back in goonfleet space... I just wanna say i had the stuff in my cargohold and maybe if i did come back in a high sec system id sell the stuff to the highest bidder or if i was in a 0.0 system id dock up if i could and get a fleet of guys to escort the stuff out if it was worth a lot!
Letrange Minmatar Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:33:00 - [412] Scanner changes... booooooner!!!! One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going? The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot?
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:33:00 - [413] You say that wormholes will disapear when they reach either 0mass or 0timer, how likely is the first? If ships dont have enough mass you have said they wont be able to jump, and I imagine its going to be very rare for there to be exactly enough mass to shut one down by jumping through it, it will just reach a very small number, effectivly making the wormhole unusable but still spawned until the timer drops. And will a despawn of a wormhole in a system trigger a new wormhole to spawn in the same system (especially relevent in wormhole systems) or will you have to keep searching and waiting for a new wormhole to appear?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:34:00 - [414] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Rex Lashar The funny part is, there is no justifiable reason for allowing 2-way travel in wormholes. I have to disagree with you here. Two-way travel is important. It means that scouting is possible. If the system were only one-way, players would have absolutely no way of estimating whether the potential rewards on the other side are worth the risk. Or whether they are even capable of surviving what is on the other side. Thank you for the postings. Scouting is not an issue, if you're coming from empire side you send an alt through in a shuttle or pod (keeping mass use low). See if its dangerous.. see if you like it.. Alt can come back to you by podding himself even if its a 1-way wormhole. Doesn't have to be an alt, just one person willing to pod themselves if need be. If you're scouting from a WH system to WH system, same thing applies. Only you can't pod the scout to rejoin the main group, should they choose not to enter that new system. The only other purpose of 2-way travel is that a small group will be able to go make multiple trips back and forth to stockpile more assets in the wormhole system. Whether it be anchoring cans full of ammo, or fuel for a small pos. This way, they 'use up' all their available mass before the WH collapses. But removing 2-way doesn't change much because you can still metagame to maximize your mass allowance on the first try. You can do this by having one person fly a fat ship like Orca. RE: Motherships and all that. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to get an Orca or a few battleships through at most. But that isn't the main concern. 2-way wormholes allow reverse exploration no matter what you do; which by proxy allows groups of players to concentrate and regroup. In other words, 2-way travel = colonization of Wormhole space. It's that simple, as I don't see how its necessary for any other purpose. Players WILL regroup to these systems because its a reliable method - even if its challenging, time consuming and annoying. In a one way system, every ship, ammo, fuel and pod consumed reduces your effectiveness. A podded corpmember has no way of linking up again until the next expedition. And that's all Wormhole space would be, no, SHOULD be - a place to launch expeditions. Since every resource you collect and transport back to empire would be one less pilot and ship on your team. And even with POS assembly arrays, you could only replace ships and ammo for a limited time before you were out of fuel. If you allow people to colonize it, its will only be a matter of time before your frontier is practically destroyed and an ever-increasing number of systems are populated by hundreds of people all belonging to the same organization. Yes, I know things aren't final. But I don't think its premature to get extremely worried. If this function isn't changed in the next 6 weeks the chances of it getting changed later are abysmal. I pray that you take this design decision with number one urgency. Right now, on behalf of my corp and our collective experience/desires the feedback can be broken down into 3 parts: 1. One way wormhole travel only. 2. Mass limit capped above Orcas (250mil kg) but below carriers (900mil kg). 3. Test bed for local changes (no list, perhaps member count).
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:34:00 - [415] Originally by: CCP Whisper I would also replace "largest entities" with "most determined entities". This! Make the logistics diffucult but practical for a determined small to mid sized group, but undesirable for a larger group. If the larger group wants to break itself up into smaller units to maintain systems, good for them. If balanced against larger entities, it could turn into a tool against the blob.
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:34:00 - [416] I'm very happy and impressed by this! I expected you guys to make it deadspace-like with just a bit of fluff here and there but this is gamechanging! Seriously +50% more systems?? Wow. I've thought about a roaming fleet with no real base for years and not it's possible! I'm a bit worried about how this will effect bigger alliances but it's worth the risk.
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:35:00 - [417] Can we get a way to stabilize WH's? Burn fuel to add to the Mass / Timer limit, and keep the JG open longer, or open it up to a larger ship? Exponential increases in requirements, the longer or larger it is maintained, to ensure it does close? Doesn't everyone love an Isk sink?
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:35:00 - [418] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Rex Lashar Basically, you guys didn't think as players would when you designed this - this was one of the first thoughts my friend and I had. Actually we did think like players. But when you're designing as large and complex a feature as this, sometimes you overlook things. ... ...I strongly believe that the challenge and rewards we will be putting into W-space will motivate many small groups to take the plunge and venture into the unknown. I hope that the fact that the NPC's will behave more like PvP opponents will help get lots of people used to fitting and fighting for PvP and increase the confidence of pilots to the point where they take their chances in low-sec and 0.0. Above all, I hope that people have fun out there. If your definition of fun is spending hours keeping a mothership alive in the middle of the unknown, go for here is one of the problems with the system Production NEEDS on some level a reliable supply to work not the unstable mess your promising with this expansion. (and thats what it boils down to, right now Im seeing a system where the only thing that is garanteed is that your bascialy screwed if your in Wspace and the hole closes, you end up with the need to fly through space that will probably be hostile to some degree to fly home. As it is what I DO see is a mechanism for greifing people. just hop back and forth with a cheep no fit ship to crush the gate. BOOM the gate goes byby and the odds are the people you stranded their now have a 20+ jump back to home, and with most of Kspace being <.5 then the odds are fairly good when that happens that its going to be hostile to some degree or another. theirfor your going to need to somehow fix the risk Vs reward. wich means that T3 had better be a LOT better than T2 ships. Otherwise? Bascialy all Im seeing is a mechanism for randomly dumping people in hostile space in order to encourage some kind of PvP.
GeekWarrior Gallente Isotope Incorporated Dead Mans Hand	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:37:00 - [419] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra ... Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. I was just thinking about this myself...
Kayn Otar Samurai Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:38:00 - [420] Originally by: Demeterus This seems to be boiling down into a discussion about whether W-Space should only be playgrounds for pvp'ers, and if that is the case then I'm sorry but W-space will be utterly barren of players. What is the purpose of W-space? A "battleground" system? I thought the purpose was obvious: an exciting new place to play. As far as being barren, I expect it will be barren of players unwilling to accept the risk of going into unknown and dangerous territory. I recently moved into low-sec, after more than a year in high-sec; and I'm confident that any carebear who is willing to take a change will soon find these exploration sites more interesting and fun than anything else they have ever done. To those who aren't willing to risk anything: why are you still playing EvE?



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