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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 47 post(s)

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:33:00 - [1] New places to go, new things to see, new people to kill, more loot to be had, but only if you're skilled and lucky. It's all about expanding the frontier of EVE and gaining more riches than ever before in Whisper's new blog: Sic Itur Ad Astra - Building a New Bridge to the Stars! Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email Do you know what a soldier is, young man? He's the chap who makes it possible for civilized folk to despise war.


Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:39:00 - [2] Edited by: Chribba on 26/01/2009 12:43:12 And off we go!! woot woot! and edit/Diamond Veldspar! HERE I COME! Secure 3rd party service

Krysalis Sal Betesta	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:49:00 - [3] Sounds good :)
Finnroth Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:50:00 - [4] Can't wait for this coming
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:51:00 - [5] Edited by: Andrue on 26/01/2009 12:52:37 Wootage! Some of it actually sounds a little like an idea I had a couple of years ago. Cool stuff So..these systems exist but have variable entrances? IOW if you establish a base in there other people can find it? Interesting. Edit:Not entirely my idea but I did contribute: An earlier discussion.
Callistus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:59:00 - [6] Sounds awesome :D One question; will these new systems be located in jump range of existing systems? And if so, is it then possible to cyno in and out of them, bypassing the wormholes?
Irulan S'Dijana Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:03:00 - [7] I foresee a jump in Amarr pilots due to logistics problem while in the middle of nowhere. Also, I don't see how a POS will be possible at all for any extended time if wormholes collapse, and POS' need NPC fuel.
Krysalis Sal Betesta	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:04:00 - [8] Originally by: Callistus Sounds awesome :D One question; will these new systems be located in jump range of existing systems? And if so, is it then possible to cyno in and out of them, bypassing the wormholes? Was just asking myself the same thing, I have a feeling that it wont be the case... but maybe this could be a new role for BlackOps only or something similar.
Adrielle Firewalker Minmatar WASTELAND MINERS Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:05:00 - [9] A comment I saw in a channel I'm in in-game was if black ops could be useful for navigating wormholes, and generally, it probably won't due to the distance away from New Eden that these systems will be. However, I had an idea that if there was some kind of long-range scanning ability to lock onto the cosmic signature of stars, you could locate and lock down coordinates to another of these non-New-Eden systems to create a jump portal with a black ops. That way, the players can begin to map which systems are nearby to other systems. True exploration!
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:06:00 - [10] Great news, now are those new NPCs one of the old races that vanished without reason like the Yan Jung or some either unknown or lesser known race, perhaps even dare I say it Alien.

MOOstradamus	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:06:00 - [11] EVE TREK Voyager 4tw MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Azure Dreams	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:11:00 - [12] Sounds great. I assume this will be dealt with in another blog but I'm assuming that these areas will be akin to 0.0? If so will ships passing through the wormhole spawn randomly in the wormhole system or are we looking at a situation where it's the first to set up a sort of gate camp controls who enters the system?
Green Aen	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:18:00 - [13] yes cool. looking forward to see greyscales devblog on mechanics. but quick question. can capital ships go true it? how will they show up on the map? and offcourse the cyno. is that reachable/possible?
Noggin TheNog Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:21:00 - [14] Edited by: Noggin TheNog on 26/01/2009 13:21:08 Edit - someone else beat me to it. Sorry for repeating the question. Once you reach wormhole space, can you light a cyno there? Will it be within jumping distance of "regular" space, or will it be one giant capital-free zone? cheers :)
Pontifex Tellanius North Star Networks Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:21:00 - [15] Looks nice :)
Kamikazi ONE HeadBangers	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:24:00 - [16] Are these 0.0/High-sec/Low-sec ? If any in High-sec will they still have Concord or be like 0.0 in the middle of High-sec ?
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:27:00 - [17] you could build caps there :) /Riv
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:28:00 - [18] Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/01/2009 13:30:47 rabble rabble I was about to post (as a joke) that is was monday morning here, about 5am, and the blog you promised wasn't here. but damn you, I go to post and the promised blog is here... I'm on to you wrangler ok down to buissness. Quote: Some may never return at all Is this a hint at permi-death?
War Porcika Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:29:00 - [19] I Can't wait for this coming!
Captain Politics JotunHeim Hird X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:34:00 - [20] Umm will there be a difference in the quality of the wormholes ? If you can find the same materials in the wormholes in highsec as in low sec it will be gamebreaking... Why live in 0.0 if you can reap the same amount of awards just next to jita ?

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Captain Politics Umm will there be a difference in the quality of the wormholes ? If you can find the same materials in the wormholes in highsec as in low sec it will be gamebreaking... Why live in 0.0 if you can reap the same amount of awards just next to jita ? but the systems in these wormholes will be 0.0 space. and be dangerous, so 0.0 will be easy street for grinding NPC, wormholes will most likely require a lot of group effort. plus you can moon mine in 0.0 space, and build outposts and such.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:39:00 - [22] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 13:39:23 Originally by: Callistus One question; will these new systems be located in jump range of existing systems? And if so, is it then possible to cyno in and out of them, bypassing the wormholes? No. Wormholes allow you to reach wormhole space. Anything other means will be considered defective and then an exploit. Originally by: Kamikazi ONE Are these 0.0/High-sec/Low-sec ? They're all treated as nullsec. Even the ones you enter from empire. There was a big discussion on this during the initial sprint but the team was quite adamant on the whole 'exploration' feeling vanishing if CONCORD was going to enforce any of it's rules out there. On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are. Originally by: Captain Politics Umm will there be a difference in the quality of the wormholes ? If you can find the same materials in the wormholes in highsec as in low sec it will be gamebreaking... Why live in 0.0 if you can reap the same amount of awards just next to jita ? Yes. Highsec -> Wormhole space will generally not be as lucrative as nullsec -> Wormhole space. It will however not be as OMFGWTFBBQpodGoesPop like either. But wormholes are fickle and unstable beings so you're never 100% certain whether your destination will contain happy hello kitties and unicorns or T+TALHELLDEATH! P.S. There will be some middleground between happy hello kitties and unicorns and T+TALHELLDEATH!. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:41:00 - [23] Regarding gate camps: When you go through a wormhole you will appear at the exit wormhole. Theoretically it is possible that someone could set up a gate camp on the other side, but pilots can view how much mass and time left on the wormhole, so pilots need to make a value judgment about whether to jump through. Of course, there is also the chance that the campers get over enthusiastic and only leave enough mass for one more pilot to jump through. Which would cause the wormhole to collapse. So the campers might end up stuck in the wormhole system...and if they haven't got a ship with a probe launcher, well they'll be in an interesting position to be sure.

Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:42:00 - [24] 8/10 on the blog guys... I was hoping for more info on how they'll be introduced but I guess I can wait. :D ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:45:00 - [25] question Do you need probes to find the exit wormhole? I can imagine a group of people, leaving one behind without probes to be infinitely stuck in that worm hole space with no hope of return. And what happened to random system entrance points?? ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Captain Politics JotunHeim Hird X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:47:00 - [26] Originally by: CCP Whisper Regarding gate camps: When you go through a wormhole you will appear at the exit wormhole. Theoretically it is possible that someone could set up a gate camp on the other side, but pilots can view how much mass and time left on the wormhole, so pilots need to make a value judgment about whether to jump through. Of course, there is also the chance that the campers get over enthusiastic and only leave enough mass for one more pilot to jump through. Which would cause the wormhole to collapse. So the campers might end up stuck in the wormhole system...and if they haven't got a ship with a probe launcher, well they'll be in an interesting position to be sure. So what you are say is that people can get stuck in the wormholes.... will you be able to petition it ? How much mass can go through a "standard" wormhole before it implodes ? And when will these features be on sisi for testing ?
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Captain Politics Umm will there be a difference in the quality of the wormholes ? If you can find the same materials in the wormholes in highsec as in low sec it will be gamebreaking... Why live in 0.0 if you can reap the same amount of awards just next to jita ? Well, you wont know where you will exit. And I guess the actual system will be 0.0 So basically you will have a wormhole in jita that takes you into the system, but the exit wormhole lands you in the middle of deklein maybe.
maarud Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:49:00 - [28] Will cap ships (like freighters and jump freighters) be able to get into the worm hole. If so, will the jump frieghters be able to jump OUT of the pocket of space if they are in range of a system to jump too. Also, I'm interested in how the worm hole works from the pocket side of space. If you're in the system and the wore hole collapses from the normal space side. Does the location close from the unexplored side too. For instance, I could I say park a alt in a system, when a worm hole collapses from the empire/low-sec/0.0 side. I log him in, go to the worn hole on the otherside and then see where i come out in conventional space. Or would I have to scan the worm whole out in the other system too? Maarud.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:52:00 - [29] Originally by: CCP Whisper Regarding gate camps: When you go through a wormhole you will appear at the exit wormhole. Theoretically it is possible that someone could set up a gate camp on the other side, but pilots can view how much mass and time left on the wormhole, so pilots need to make a value judgment about whether to jump through. Of course, there is also the chance that the campers get over enthusiastic and only leave enough mass for one more pilot to jump through. Which would cause the wormhole to collapse. So the campers might end up stuck in the wormhole system...and if they haven't got a ship with a probe launcher, well they'll be in an interesting position to be sure. lol If I found a gatecamp I would get a ton of people into whateber ships we could find, jump through to close the wormhole on purpose, and then kill their probe ship. Thus claiming the whole fleet as MIA.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:54:00 - [30] Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/01/2009 13:53:57 Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Captain Politics Umm will there be a difference in the quality of the wormholes ? If you can find the same materials in the wormholes in highsec as in low sec it will be gamebreaking... Why live in 0.0 if you can reap the same amount of awards just next to jita ? Well, you wont know where you will exit. And I guess the actual system will be 0.0 So basically you will have a wormhole in jita that takes you into the system, but the exit wormhole lands you in the middle of deklein maybe. "hey you guys" I a found a wormhole that leads right to jiota, if we camp the outside part in our 0.0 system we can just harvest noobs for free!

Aliedora	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:54:00 - [31] Will there be local in wormhole systems? That is, once I jump in, will I be able to see the players that are already there and chat with them? Also, I too am interested in what would happen if the entrance wormhole collapses and you don't have any probes left. Surely, CCP would not maroon players in wormholes for all eternity a la Davy Jones' Locker :D
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:55:00 - [32] Quote: There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. AHA! I knew CCP would find a way to nerf piracy! Mark my words, whatever probing scheme they come up with for the new system, it won't be as effective as what we're currently using to kill mission runners (i.e. racial quest probes).
XxKatharsisxX	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:56:00 - [33] Hmmm what about beeing a pirate? can i see what kind of security the exiting systems will be?? imagine u be there for same days ur cargo packed with valuable stuff and end up beeing shot by concord cause the damn exit leads into highsec? so i would suggest these exits to lead into lowsec or at least give info on where u might land i hope this has been considered id be deeply griefed if not :P Kath
gpfault Haunted House	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:57:00 - [34] Originally by: XxKatharsisxX Hmmm what about beeing a pirate? can i see what kind of security the exiting systems will be?? imagine u be there for same days ur cargo packed with valuable stuff and end up beeing shot by concord cause the damn exit leads into highsec? so i would suggest these exits to lead into lowsec or at least give info on where u might land i hope this has been considered id be deeply griefed if not :P Kath Go through in your pod first?
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:57:00 - [35] OMG, this sounds epic, however I am wondering about the following - How common will worm holes be? Are we going to have 5000 people hunting for the same wormhole, and only one r two finding it/getting through? I sense chaos ahead! Is it really possible to get stuck out there? I think it's awesome if you could potentialy get stuck somewhere off map if you don't go well enough equiped, however imaging the wines that these forums will see. This looks like epic win CCP, please don't screw it up!
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Aliedora Will there be local in wormhole systems? That is, once I jump in, will I be able to see the players that are already there and chat with them? Also, I too am interested in what would happen if the entrance wormhole collapses and you don't have any probes left. Surely, CCP would not maroon players in wormholes for all eternity a la Davy Jones' Locker :D Presumably you clone jump the old fashioned way
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:03:00 - [37] As if mission deadspaces werent hard e-fuicking-nough to probe out and kill people in, now you want to add WHOLE SYSTEMS THAT YOU CANT PHYSICALLY EVEN GET INTO, to ensure MAX-PVE. what the ****? seriously, if you jsut want to move this game towards even more solo-pve then just tell me so i can unsubscribe right away.
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:04:00 - [38] Just two words: Thank you.
maarud Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:09:00 - [39] Will a system have multiple worm holes in and out. IE: I'm camping a worm hole thinking its the only one into a system, mean while, another one has opened up and ships have come through there. Maarud.
Von Druid Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:09:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Prism X They're all treated as nullsec. Even the ones you enter from empire. There was a big discussion on this during the initial sprint but the team was quite adamant on the whole 'exploration' feeling vanishing if CONCORD was going to enforce any of it's rules out there. I wonder if that means that the new NPCs won't have any bounties. As far as I know, the bounties are from CONCORD.

ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:09:00 - [41] oh and more content based around the BRILLIANT probing system* that we all know and love! worst *ing feature in eve by far, who the came up with the idea of clicking scan every 5 minutes and thought that would be fun and exciting? seriously, give me just 1 **ing reply in this thread that states they enjoy probing. just 1.
gpfault Haunted House	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:09:00 - [42] Edited by: gpfault on 26/01/2009 14:11:41 Originally by: ardik As if mission deadspaces werent hard e-fuicking-nough to probe out and kill people in, now you want to add WHOLE SYSTEMS THAT YOU CANT PHYSICALLY EVEN GET INTO, to ensure MAX-PVE. what the ****? seriously, if you jsut want to move this game towards even more solo-pve then just tell me so i can unsubscribe right away. Sure they'll be able to mine and gank rats in peace, but if their exit wormhole to 'safe' space collapses, they may end up in having to carry a metric crapton of expensive loot right through your back yard @The devs, can you get wormholes inside wormhole systems to other wormhole systems? Could be fun. EDIT: Can you keep the current probing system as the 'combat' probes? Not being able to probe mission runners, etc will suck greatly :\
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:10:00 - [43] Thanks for this blog, as an explorer I have been wanting this sort of thing for ages. Few questions though: Originally by: CCP Prism X Yes. Highsec -> Wormhole space will generally not be as lucrative as nullsec -> Wormhole space. Does this imply that wormhole space accessed through highsec can only be accessed through highsec wormholes? That the exits from the highsec accessed from wormhole space would only lead to empire space as well? Let me just walk through a scenario here, let's say I through an ungodly lucky stroke find an untapped dysprosium moon in wormhole space. I use an orca or something to throw up a POS. From there I move a few alts to the POS, and use them to leave the system through the wormholes that come and go to ascertain where the new entrances are to move the material out and move fuel in. Then I'd jump them back to the home system. Would this be possible? Non-exploitive? I'm not sure how else it could work to find a system where you set up a POS in again without getting exceedingly lucky, there being 1000+ wormhole systems and all.
Shevar Minmatar Target Practice incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:13:00 - [44] Originally by: CCP Wrangler One important point needs to be made: Wormhole space will not be able to be claimed as sovereign space. This is partly due to current implementation restrictions regarding how we added 46% more solar systems to EVE but mainly because we wanted to design an area of space which, while risky to travel through, is open to all players all the time I hope all the systems are .0 in terms of mechanics? Also how often will a player be faced with people entering the same system as they are in? I really hope you guys don't turn it into a riskless carebear heaven :s. I hope pismx will go into this in detail in his upcoming blog; Quote: Greyscale will be publishing a dev blog of his own where he will go into more detail about the game mechanics surrounding wormholes --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:13:00 - [45] Originally by: gpfault Originally by: ardik As if mission deadspaces werent hard e-fuicking-nough to probe out and kill people in, now you want to add WHOLE SYSTEMS THAT YOU CANT PHYSICALLY EVEN GET INTO, to ensure MAX-PVE. what the **? seriously, if you jsut want to move this game towards even more solo-pve then just tell me so i can unsubscribe right away. Sure they'll be able to mine and gank rats in peace, but if their exit wormhole to 'safe' space collapses, they may end up in having to carry a metric crapton of expensive loot right through your back yard what the **? you actually think logistics can be intercepted if both parties are equally competent? wow, just wow. no, for fights to occur you need 2 opposing groups of people, at the point of the valuable resource, at the same time and with no choice of just waiting the other guys out and going second.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:14:00 - [46] Originally by: ardik oh and more content based around the BRILLIANT probing system* that we all know and love! worst *ing feature in eve by far, who the came up with the idea of clicking scan every 5 minutes and thought that would be fun and exciting? seriously, give me just 1 **ing reply in this thread that states they enjoy probing. just 1. Uhm...did you miss the part where I mentioned we're revamping the scanning system? It's the bullet-pointed list about half-way down.


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:17:00 - [47] Originally by: gpfault Edited by: gpfault on 26/01/2009 14:11:41 Originally by: ardik As if mission deadspaces werent hard e-fuicking-nough to probe out and kill people in, now you want to add WHOLE SYSTEMS THAT YOU CANT PHYSICALLY EVEN GET INTO, to ensure MAX-PVE. what the ****? seriously, if you jsut want to move this game towards even more solo-pve then just tell me so i can unsubscribe right away. Sure they'll be able to mine and gank rats in peace, but if their exit wormhole to 'safe' space collapses, they may end up in having to carry a metric crapton of expensive loot right through your back yard @The devs, can you get wormholes inside wormhole systems to other wormhole systems? Could be fun. EDIT: Can you keep the current probing system as the 'combat' probes? Not being able to probe mission runners, etc will suck greatly :\

Hamoroid Hangcock Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:18:00 - [48] Edited by: Hamoroid Hang*** on 26/01/2009 14:20:07* There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm...i belong to that group that loves probing sites and ships with the same launcher,am i screwed over again? 2 probers in every gang? Btw that blog looks good but that part on top makes me worried
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Shevar I really hope you guys don't turn it into a riskless carebear heaven :s. the only potential upside with wormholes is that they MAY leave local out, but im guessing there will be a **ing local channel even in these TOTALLY UNEXPLORED wormholes since ccp seems to be catering to the bored-with-wow crowd. anyway, judging by the post then there will be so many **ing wormholes that chances of finding someone in one will be somewhere around 0. and really, you guys think 0.0 is too crowded? really? around 80% of all 0.0 systems are completely empty most of the time. go in-game right now, go to map, click people in space last 30mins and you can see entire regions with maybe a combined 20 people in them.
maarud Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:21:00 - [50] Originally by: Hamoroid Hang**** Edited by: Hamoroid Hang*** on 26/01/2009 14:20:07* There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm...i belong to that group that loves probing sites and ships with the same launcher,am i screwed over again? 2 probers in every gang? Btw that blog looks good but that part on top makes me worried 2 Probe launchers to one ship?


CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:21:00 - [51] Originally by: Gamer4liff Does this imply that wormhole space accessed through highsec can only be accessed through highsec wormholes? That the exits from the highsec accessed from wormhole space would only lead to empire space as well? No. You could possibly apply that as a general rule of thumb but that is in no means absolute. Originally by: Gamer4liff Let me just walk through a scenario here, let's say I through an ungodly lucky stroke find an untapped dysprosium moon in wormhole space. I use an orca or something to throw up a POS. Could happen. Originally by: Gamer4liff From there I move a few alts to the POS, and use them to leave the system through the wormholes that come and go to ascertain where the new entrances are to move the material out and move fuel in. Then I'd jump them back to the home system. Could happen. Originally by: Gamer4liff Would this be possible? Non-exploitive? I'm not sure how else it could work to find a system where you set up a POS in again without getting exceedingly lucky, there being 1000+ wormhole systems and all. As far as I can see you're using intended mechanics and working on keeping the POS online and lucrative. I wouldn't expect it to work in all cases though. I could very easily see you finding a wormhole that leads further into wormhole space. You need more fuel for the POS.. so will you look further into space? At some point you might find yourself stuck, with a collapsed wormhole behind you and no way to empire or to your POS. The trick would be to never loose your frame of reference to the POS, and if that happens.. you might as well just set a new one up. I'll do you a solid and point Greyscale this way.

ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:21:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: ardik oh and more content based around the BRILLIANT probing system* that we all know and love! worst *ing feature in eve by far, who the came up with the idea of clicking scan every 5 minutes and thought that would be fun and exciting? seriously, give me just 1 ing reply in this thread that states they enjoy probing. just 1. Uhm...did you miss the part where I mentioned we're revamping the scanning system? It's the bullet-pointed list about half-way down. I think you missed the part where a revamp just wont cut it for that ing tumor of a game mechanic, cut that ** out and you might live. (ANALOGIES)
XxKatharsisxX	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:23:00 - [53] why is always the guy shouting loudest and did not even read blop properly always answered first... will it help if i shout and say lots of F**** to get my question answered?? Kath
Daygore Aracnus	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:24:00 - [54] this should prove "interesting" Ok so let be check I've got this right: worm holes apper randomly across space with at least one end in a random "wormhole system" worm holes collapse after X mass. worm holes will be only findable with probs. (both in and out of wormhole space) wormhole systems will have a "death rating" from (im saying 0-1 for my questions with 1 being easy) my questions: do the different ratings link to each other randomly or do you just more around the same level? will this mean that in theory you could get from jita to deep in 0.0 if the worm holes randomly landed correctly what is 1 wormhole space like? 0.0 belt rats/or lvl 2 mission type things? what is 0.0 wormhole space like? (roaming NPC motherships) is there any concept of distance with wormhole systems ie can you go into one wormhole system and then go though another worm hole in the same system and end up on the other side of normal space? will there only be self-destruct/getting rescued by friends if you are floating around in your pod
Not Atthegate Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:24:00 - [55] Originally by: maarud Originally by: Hamoroid Hang**** Edited by: Hamoroid Hang*** on 26/01/2009 14:20:07* There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm...i belong to that group that loves probing sites and ships with the same launcher,am i screwed over again? 2 probers in every gang? Btw that blog looks good but that part on top makes me worried I hope so,one for making isk and one for sending others into the clonevat 2 Probe launchers to one ship?
Marmios Elite Aeronautic Developer Syndicate Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:25:00 - [56] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Gamer4liff Let me just walk through a scenario here, let's say I through an ungodly lucky stroke find an untapped dysprosium moon in wormhole space. I use an orca or something to throw up a POS. Could happen. How do u kill such a POS or refuel it if no Cyno is allowed or wormhole collapses? I mean u cant get in an entire BS fleet to kill a hostile tower. How do u get rid of POSes then?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:26:00 - [57] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 26/01/2009 14:29:38 Originally by: CCP Prism X words Given the profitability of dysprosium moons I dare say if it was even remotely possible to keep it up and online I'd give it my best shot, hehe. Thanks for the answers! EDIT: Still wondering about this one though. Will you be able to use ship scanners to find exit wormholes, if you have no probes? Originally by: Pattern Clarc question Do you need probes to find the exit wormhole? I can imagine a group of people, leaving one behind without probes to be infinitely stuck in that worm hole space with no hope of return.
Captain Politics JotunHeim Hird X13 Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:32:00 - [58] How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:34:00 - [59] Originally by: ardik oh and more content based around the BRILLIANT probing system* that we all know and love! worst *ing feature in eve by far, who the came up with the idea of clicking scan every 5 minutes and thought that would be fun and exciting? seriously, give me just 1 **ing reply in this thread that states they enjoy probing. just 1. did you even read the blog?
Wrayeth Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:36:00 - [60] You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:37:00 - [61] Originally by: ardik I think you missed the part where a revamp just wont cut it for that **ing tumor of a game mechanic, cut that ** out and you might live. It has been excised. The new scanner mechanic is to the old one as apples are to oranges. But I am going to let Greyscale talk about that since he's the one who designed it.


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home.

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:42:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: ardik I think you missed the part where a revamp just wont cut it for that **ing tumor of a game mechanic, cut that ** out and you might live. It has been excised. The new scanner mechanic is to the old one as apples are to oranges. But I am going to let Greyscale talk about that since he's the one who designed it. I don't think he'll be happy until you just turn it on and wait some time until it gives you results and then automatically keeps scanning, over and over again. also I hope you can get CCP t0rfifrans in here to answer my questions about the backgrounds maybe?
jam6549 Cold Blooded Killers	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:43:00 - [64] you do realise that there will be a sudden influx of "new" players coming on the forums saying they are stuck and such with this, what will happen for people who get stuck in these places and file a stuck petition? how will this be handled? you may want to note to the players on your decisions on this as i can forecast a lot of these petitions back-logging the GMs petition que.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:45:00 - [65] would have been nice to get a capital-free-zone, but the idea of using a carrier or a mothership to live out of in deep wormhole space would be very interesting. a manufacturing module for a mothership would let us live out our deepest BSG/Homeworld fantasies. Looking forward to this, I hope that the empire dwellers arent too scared off by the lack of concord.
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:46:00 - [66] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. What is there to stop people just jumping in/out of the wormhole with the express point to clock up the mass and close it. Some people will no doubt get their kicks from this alone. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
yunger Big Shadows Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:48:00 - [67] If I do decide to take my carrier and pve alt on a vacation in wormhole space and the gate collapses behind me. About how often will new wormholes open? Will I be better of abandoning my carrier and jumping around try to find my way out because next gate will open in 2-3 months or should I stay there seeing there will be a new gate within a week or 2? And how does is connect to normal space, If the wormhole closes and reopens will I be coming out in the other side of the galaxy or in the general area I started from?
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:48:00 - [68] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. How about new skills that can offer better control over wormholes? Say, a skill to increase stability of wormhole (more time), a skill to increase mass allowed, skill to increase chances of finding good wormholes, etc. Please tell me you're considering it.
Tlar Sanqua	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:49:00 - [69] Sounds truly brilliant. Couple of quick Q's: 1) Will this new system be interacting with the "local" debate and issue? 2) Would it be theoretically possible to find a wormhole in null, jump your mothership through, and then find a wormhole out that lead to highsec? 3) Will this improve scanning of existing deadspace complex's? 4) Will this use the existing scanning skills (or to be decided?) Sounds great and looking forward to getting "Lost in Space..."
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:50:00 - [70] Originally by: CCP Whisper Regarding gate camps: When you go through a wormhole you will appear at the exit wormhole. Theoretically it is possible that someone could set up a gate camp on the other side, but pilots can view how much mass and time left on the wormhole, so pilots need to make a value judgment about whether to jump through. Of course, there is also the chance that the campers get over enthusiastic and only leave enough mass for one more pilot to jump through. Which would cause the wormhole to collapse. So the campers might end up stuck in the wormhole system...and if they haven't got a ship with a probe launcher, well they'll be in an interesting position to be sure. Oh that rules! Great design! Seems that the expansion is going to rule supreme. Can barely wait.

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:50:00 - [71] Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. What is there to stop people just jumping in/out of the wormhole with the express point to clock up the mass and close it. Some people will no doubt get their kicks from this alone. maybe when you leave a wormhole system it should let you out at a worumhole, but when you jump into a wormhole system you aren't at a gate? you bring up a good point I want to see what CCPs answer is on this one.
Sanche Tehkeli Gallente Bionesis Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:50:00 - [72] Hi there! What to say? WooT wonerful news! Question : will ships in cargo and maintenance bay counted toward the critical mass to collapse a WH? And fitted and cargo'ed modules? Will it be possible to cancal a jump through a WH, or flying too close to one will get you sucked away (would be fun.)
Fergus Runkle Minmatar Truth and Reconciliation Council	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:51:00 - [73] Okay there is something I do not quite understand here. I donÆt want to pyramid quote but the question was asked (paraphrased) ôwill there be a difference between hi-sec and null sec wormholes in terms of the quality of the stuff on the other side?ö Prism X answered that yes (in general) the wormhole space reachable from hi-sec will be poorer that that reachable from null sec. Which is fine, 0.0 is end game and I have no problem with that. However, when asked if those hi-sec wormholes would only lead back out to high sec (thus keeping risk vs. reward balance as in ôif itÆs open to hi-sec itÆs not that rewardingö) the reply from Prism X was ôNo. You could possibly apply that as a general rule of thumb but that is in no means absoluteö So we can find wormholes in hi-sec, they will not be as lucrative as those found in null sec and on top of that we may find the only way out is to null sec. Seems to be a lot more risk there than reward. /me prepares flame suit. Couple of unrelated mechanics questions. Are the wormholes bi-directional or are you going to have to find a way in and a way out? and How random are the entry and exit points going to be? ie will one of the systems be linked to a set list of ôinö and ôoutö normal systems? Perhaps a constellation? (so the in and out systems for wormhole system X will always appear in Z normal constellation)
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:52:00 - [74] Originally by: jam6549 you do realise that there will be a sudden influx of "new" players coming on the forums saying they are stuck and such with this, what will happen for people who get stuck in these places and file a stuck petition? how will this be handled? you may want to note to the players on your decisions on this as i can forecast a lot of these petitions back-logging the GMs petition que. I sense a new 'profession' . "Sure I'll probe the exit wormhole for ya. That'll be 10 million isk, cash only please ".
maarud Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:54:00 - [75] Originally by: jam6549 you do realise that there will be a sudden influx of "new" players coming on the forums saying they are stuck and such with this, what will happen for people who get stuck in these places and file a stuck petition? how will this be handled? you may want to note to the players on your decisions on this as i can forecast a lot of these petitions back-logging the GMs petition que. They will have to pod them selves out I suppose. Its thier own fault for getting stuck.
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:55:00 - [76] Originally by: Mr John22ta OMG, this sounds epic, however I am wondering about the following - How common will worm holes be? Are we going to have 5000 people hunting for the same wormhole, and only one r two finding it/getting through? I sense chaos ahead! Is it really possible to get stuck out there? I think it's awesome if you could potentialy get stuck somewhere off map if you don't go well enough equiped, however imaging the wines that these forums will see. This looks like epic win CCP, please don't screw it up! We whine all the time anyway. The wine from people getting stuck would be epic fun. Much better than nanonerf tears or latest missile buff tears from mission runners that can't adopt. It would be worth it just for the tears
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:55:00 - [77] i took from prismX's comment that wormholes in empire will have a higher chance of linking to not-as-great wormhole space, and wormholes in 0.0 have a higher chance of leading to really-great-wormhole-space. so you could get a great bit of space from jita, but it would be unlikely. likewise it would be unlikely that a rubbish bit of space would drop you out into deep 0.0, more likely punt you out into highsec.
Zerb Berus	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:58:00 - [78] Edited by: Zerb Berus on 26/01/2009 15:04:24 are there only wormholes such as: [wormhole-sys] <--> [normal-space] or are there [wormhole-sys] <--> [wormhole-sys] connections too ? Originally by: Xennith ... the idea of using a carrier or a mothership to live out of in DEEP wormhole space would be very interesting. This!

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:02:00 - [79] Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. What is there to stop people just jumping in/out of the wormhole with the express point to clock up the mass and close it. Some people will no doubt get their kicks from this alone.

Driston Kamer Minmatar Urban Mining Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:04:00 - [80] Ok, after reading all the posts to-date there is still one outstanding question that I have. If this is caused by some random unknown energy event is there the chance that our jump gates could be effected there by having them randomly either send you to a wormhole system or a different system within empire then where you expected to go? These gates after all do create a kind of wormhole for travel who's to say that they cant cross streams with an active wormhole and send a lot of unintended traffic into wormhole space? Just something to kick around.

clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:06:00 - [81] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. What is there to stop people just jumping in/out of the wormhole with the express point to clock up the mass and close it. Some people will no doubt get their kicks from this alone. I see. understood -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Zerb Berus Edited by: Zerb Berus on 26/01/2009 15:04:24 are there only wormholes such as: [wormhole-sys] <--> [normal-space] or are there [wormhole-sys] <--> [wormhole-sys] connections too ? Originally by: Xennith ... the idea of using a carrier or a mothership to live out of in DEEP wormhole space would be very interesting. This! From what I can tell both. So you can get to great space even from Jita but it might demand finding few more WHs and going through systems with less than pleasant peeps in them.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:06:00 - [83] A small and irrelevant question: Would CJ'ing to a wormhole system be considered an exploit?
Caldreis Caldari White Star II	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:07:00 - [84] CCP whisper apparently the latin word Itur is misspelled as the real spell is Iter. Is this intend or not? iter itineris n. [going , way, direction; journey, march; right of way, permission to march]; concr., [way, road]; fig., [way, course, method]. Iter Linkage
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:08:00 - [85] Originally by: Driston Kamer Ok, after reading all the posts to-date there is still one outstanding question that I have. If this is caused by some random unknown energy event is there the chance that our jump gates could be effected there by having them randomly either send you to a wormhole system or a different system within empire then where you expected to go? These gates after all do create a kind of wormhole for travel who's to say that they cant cross streams with an active wormhole and send a lot of unintended traffic into wormhole space? Just something to kick around. Whole idea with the gates is that they create controlled WHs. Wouldn't fit really to have them jump around plus it would put a huge damp on travel and trade. Logistics are bad enough without there being a random chance of you ending up somewhere in hell.
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:08:00 - [86] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab A small and irrelevant question: Would CJ'ing to a wormhole system be considered an exploit? CCP Prism X said it would on first page. Wormholes allow you to reach wormhole space. Anything other means will be considered defective and then an exploit.
Sardas Oran Gallente The Underground Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:09:00 - [87] How are these systems going to be named, and if we see a wormhole will we be able to see where it leads?

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:10:00 - [88] Originally by: Mr John22ta How common will worm holes be? Are we going to have 5000 people hunting for the same wormhole, and only one r two finding it/getting through? I sense chaos ahead! We will make sure that wormholes are widely distributed. Much like the current exploration sites, they will despawn and respawn somewhere else if no-one finds them. So you should always be able to find a wormhole within a couple of jumps of your current location. Originally by: Mr John22ta Is it really possible to get stuck out there? I think it's awesome if you could potentialy get stuck somewhere off map if you don't go well enough equiped, however imaging the wines that these forums will see. Yes. It is really possible to get stuck out there. If you lose your ship and have no-one flying backup who has a probe launcher and probes, or if you run out of probes, leave them behind or otherwise end up without a means to find your way home, the self-destruct button and your hopefully updated clone are your new best friends. Note: While the new probes do expire within a certain time, we are adding the means to recall probes to the scanner functionality. We are also adding a mechanic whereby you can reconnect probes lost due to a disconnect or "accidental" session change. Essentially if there are probes belonging to you in a system, you can recover them. So it would take a very unprepared pilot to get stranded because he or she ran out of probes. Originally by: Mr John22ta This looks like epic win CCP, please don't screw it up! We're doing our best not to.

FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:10:00 - [89] Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab A small and irrelevant question: Would CJ'ing to a wormhole system be considered an exploit? CCP Prism X said it would on first page. Wormholes allow you to reach wormhole space. Anything other means will be considered defective and then an exploit. To clonejump there you first need to get a ship with cloning vats in, and they aren't exactly lightweight kind

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:11:00 - [90] Originally by: Caldreis CCP whisper apparently the latin word Itur is misspelled as the real spell is Iter. Is this intend or not? iter itineris n. [going , way, direction; journey, march; right of way, permission to march]; concr., [way, road]; fig., [way, course, method]. Iter Linkage Whoops. I'll get that corrected. It's been many years since I did latin in school.


clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:11:00 - [91] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab A small and irrelevant question: Would CJ'ing to a wormhole system be considered an exploit? CCP Prism X said it would on first page. Wormholes allow you to reach wormhole space. Anything other means will be considered defective and then an exploit. To clonejump there you first need to get a ship with cloning vats in, and they aren't exactly lightweight kind my bad.. -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
Klutte	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:13:00 - [92] oh hell! i thought this was going to be a useless feature, now it seems like it will be the thing that ones again makes eve a too big part of my life...
Arte AFK	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:14:00 - [93] Really sounds good, nice blog. I'm looking forward to giving it a shot, definitley going to actively increase my exploration efforts when it comes around. Just a few questions... May I assume that it will be tried and tested on sisi before it gets released - in its entirety so that we may guage what skills we'll need. Will the new probing system use the same skills, will new ones be needed to remain as effective as they are now (guessing from what I've read, that Greyscale will answer that in his blog) Assuming the worst happens and we get stuck, would it be safe to assume that podding yourself will still get you back to your clone station? Are the new systems like deadspace in its featureless glory, or regular systems with moons, planets, belts and anomolies to warp to? If this is the case, will warping to them remain as it is now in 'regular space' or will our nav computers have to be tuned in somehow to be able to find the celestial objects. Once found, do they stay on our nav computers for easier reference back to them. (breadcrumbs in case we get lost) or do we have to continually search for them again. Thanks again for a good blog. Optimistic that this will have me logging on more often... Can't wait for the follow on blogs.
Kitten Smitten	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:25:00 - [94] Triangulation is a great idea, but won't it make catching 0.0 ninja ratters semi-impossible? Right now it is hard to quickly scan the raven's safespot before it cloaks, and just one probe is enough. If you have to deplay 3 or more of them... The only possibility will be a belt spam with enough interceptors and praying he's not aligned (which he's). Maybe intorduce a way to scan someone cloaked already (there has been numerous good ideas about that on the forums) Just my 2 cent.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:25:00 - [95] First: although it hasn't explicitly been stated, it sounds as though wormholes work in both directions. They have a single mass limit that applies to the total traffic in both directions. Is there any chance of seeing 1-way wormholes? Also, if I understand correctly, there will be no stargates between systems in wormhole space, just other wormholes. Will there be more wormholes in wormhole space than in normal space to compensate for this? Next question: will the wormhole systems have pre-assigned names, like normal systems, or do we have to make up our own? About the randomness of the wormholes - will they appear along static routes, appearing at random times, or will they be on totally random routes as well as random times? Also, will they expire on their own if no-one uses them? So far, only 'wormhole <-> wormhole' and 'normal <-> wormhole' routes have been mentioned. Is there any chance of seeing 'normal <-> normal' routes? --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:26:00 - [96] First things first, good job CCP on bringing new content to the game. I'm looking forward to learning more about wormholes. "Which begs the question of how you will find the wormholes. Well, we are in the process of revamping the entire scanner mechanic, making it faster and easier to use. A shortlist of the new scanner features is" - Dev Blog by CCP Whisper Next, please consider that exploration career has always involved lots of specialization. By the sound of your blog "making it faster and easier to use" you make it sound like EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMA will be able to do it. There is not enough information in your blog to say or don't say that specialized exploration career will vanish with everyone scanning, but do consider the above.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:27:00 - [97] Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 26/01/2009 15:27:50 Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab A small and irrelevant question: Would CJ'ing to a wormhole system be considered an exploit? CCP Prism X said it would on first page. Wormholes allow you to reach wormhole space. Anything other means will be considered defective and then an exploit. To clonejump there you first need to get a ship with cloning vats in, and they aren't exactly lightweight kind They aren't, however I'm still asking. If you got a clone in a wormspace system, then you've already reached it (else how would your clone be there). And the backstory on CJ'ing does not preclude it. So CCP Whisper's statement about exploit can be interpreted in ways that could would allow it. So, I'm asking for a definite answer, not an interpretation of the answer on cynos.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:27:00 - [98] Sounds aweeeeeeeeeeeeesome!! I still have a question or two: 1) Would it be possible to jump OUT of a wormhole system, for example with a jumpfreighter? Or is the only connection between wormhole-space and normal space the wormhole(s)? 2)Since it will be possible to see how much time and mass is left on the wormhole, will it also be possible to see how much mass was available in the first place for the wormhole? Otherwise any prediction on how many ships used that wormhole might be pretty nonsense.
Jupix Minmatar Pari Nallea Failliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:27:00 - [99] If a wormhole collapses, and I'm inside wormhole space, will I be able to dwell in that solar system for some time and eventually get out through a new (respawned) wormhole? Or, am I like, really stuck there?
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:31:00 - [100] Edited by: Kessiaan on 26/01/2009 15:32:03 I'll be honest and say this idea is ****ing brilliant, quite possibly the best feature I've seen posted in a devblog since I started playing back in 2007. Anyway.. I read through the pages and while the 'no cynos' makes me sad I was wondering if some of the wormhole systems will have ice belts? If so it seems possible that a determined corp could get a freighter (or maybe a Rorqual loaded up with clones) out to a suitable wormhole system (one way trip of course), set up a POS, and just freakin' live there. Sure, getting everyone out there, then running loot back to normal space would be a royal pain in the ass but with some forethought (and a good BPO collection) you could be largely self-sufficient as well as incredibly difficult to dislodge - you could rat, mine, and do whatever else is in there to your heart's content and gank explorers all day long without worrying about a real force ever showing up.

Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:32:00 - [101] Is it possible that we will get to see new true Deep Space Exploration ships, something similar to an Orca or Carrier designed to be more self sufficient while cut off from normal space? Aka, they have a refining module and manufacturing capabilities (both of which with a penalty to refining and manufacturing so they do not replace a POS or station)? My vision is to take a fleet into Wormhole space, traveling around from system to system, mining ore, gathering loot, and generally just doing the Brave New World bit. Eventually we decide we want return to home so we search for an exit point, or we have Jump Clone capabilities so a couple of our pilots can cycle out while exploring. On the aspect of a Deep Space Exploration Ship, if there was to be such a beast, could we also have a way to anchor the ship like a POS, which allows the pilot to exit the ship and essentially lock it so that only someone with a password can board the ship. The ship could be like a POS in that regard where it has a siege mode if it is attacked until either destroyed or boarded (and boarding immediately takes it out of siege mode) Just some thoughts to make exploration more fun :)
LaserX Caldari Legion of Steel Lions	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:33:00 - [102] The whole system sounds brilliant really. Will there be info about how difficult the rat in the wormhole system will be and what kind of ships we are expected to bring? I mean will they be able to be done in let's say a bs gang with logistics or something like that? _____________________________________
Lord Saradomin Gallente The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:36:00 - [103] This is quite possibly the best expansion feature I will have the pleasure of playing when it first comes out in over 2 years now. The simple updates to the scanning system also sound spanking. I just love the whole randomness of it, will I get stuck? what happens when I go in? can I get home? lol Awesome ♥ Eve Online: QR = welcome to Assault Frigate Online
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:36:00 - [104] One possible exploit that no one's brought up yet, that comes to mind. Since worm holes have a mass limit what's to prevent ppl from jumping back and forth with multiple ships on purpose to collapse worm holes so that no one else can access the area. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page "Nothing about Eve should be easy. Not even ganking." -Rhohan
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:38:00 - [105] Quote: And while there are still thrills to be had, there exists at the back of many of our minds the nagging knowledge that we are not the first to venture here. That the maps have been drawn, the anchorages charted, the wild hills surveyed and the paths trodden so often they're now four-lane blacktop highways with shopping malls and 24-hour burger bars along the fringes. So what? It's not exactly the most common complaint about eve, but really, do you want to wander around in some totally empty wasteland with no other people in sight, clicking scan every couple minutes to hope you find a site with ****ed NPCs that you can kill with so little effort, that the most common PVE question in Eve is about what setups you can AFK with? Or do you want your world to be crowded with actual PLAYERS fighting over SCARCE resources, creating the content on their own with PVP, instead of your elaborate and time consuming effort to create PVE ** that's so bland and boring that it's only done for the sake of farming?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:39:00 - [106] got an idea. Let tech 3 ships on-board scanners find wormholes.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:39:00 - [107] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Quote: There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. AHA! I knew CCP would find a way to nerf piracy! Mark my words, whatever probing scheme they come up with for the new system, it won't be as effective as what we're currently using to kill mission runners (i.e. racial quest probes). Agreeing with Bellum for the first time in my life. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:40:00 - [108] Originally by: WarlockX One possible exploit that no one's brought up yet, that comes to mind. Since worm holes have a mass limit what's to prevent ppl from jumping back and forth with multiple ships on purpose to collapse worm holes so that no one else can access the area. That is no exploit but intended mechanism. CCP Whisper covered it already
Kile Kitmoore	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:41:00 - [109] Any thoughts about giving corps. the ability to build some sort of gate/wormhole amplifier? Providing either a permanent (until someone blows it up or corp. does not maintain it) or expands the time/mass allowed for the wormhole to remain open.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:41:00 - [110] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: ardik I think you missed the part where a revamp just wont cut it for that **ing tumor of a game mechanic, cut that ** out and you might live. It has been excised. The new scanner mechanic is to the old one as apples are to oranges. But I am going to let Greyscale talk about that since he's the one who designed it. The mechanics are awesome. I did exploration for a month straight and then quit because it made me emo. But with this mechanic I'm pretty damn sure it won't be the case. I might just get really addicted, in fact.

Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:42:00 - [111] Lots of issues to think about ... but really excited overall. Questions: 1. Non-T3 science ships -- any news on whether any will be deployed. 2. What happens to old launchers, implants, rigs, probes, etc.? 3. Looks like the old exploration skills will still be useful, but would like some verification. That will do for now. Des Jardin P.S. Like the name of the Dev Blog (we have had the corp name for almost two years)
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:43:00 - [112] I hope your not adding a bunch of t1 mins (no matter how valuble) that can be mined in this region - just look at what the drone regions did to low sec ore prices.. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:44:00 - [113] Originally by: WarlockX One possible exploit that no one's brought up yet, that comes to mind. Since worm holes have a mass limit what's to prevent ppl from jumping back and forth with multiple ships on purpose to collapse worm holes so that no one else can access the area. the wormhole will respawn elsewhere, so all they would be doing is moving it around the universe.
Driston Kamer Minmatar Urban Mining Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:44:00 - [114] Came up with another question. I know that the Dev's have said there is no cyno out to wormhole space, but what about cyno'ing around wormhole space? This would really be cool from an exploration stand point because you could always have a frame of reference once there and to get to a new area you have to explore the wormholes. If you find one you like and meet some nice friendly Aliens that will let you rent out some station space, being able to jump back and forth to known locations would be very very cool.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:45:00 - [115] Originally by: WarlockX One possible exploit that no one's brought up yet, that comes to mind. Since worm holes have a mass limit what's to prevent ppl from jumping back and forth with multiple ships on purpose to collapse worm holes so that no one else can access the area. Allready brought up and legit.. see page 2 or 3 i think, dev post Forge '07 on Sale
Adam C Caldari H A V O C	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:49:00 - [116] Edited by: Adam C on 26/01/2009 15:55:31 Originally by: "CCP Whisper" and new pockets of resources to exploit I think they really mean that - weak joke.. is weak Originally by: "CCP Whisper" brand new type of NPC oh and im guessin' jovians :D
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:51:00 - [117] Originally by: Driston Kamer Came up with another question. I know that the Dev's have said there is no cyno out to wormhole space, but what about cyno'ing around wormhole space? This would really be cool from an exploration stand point because you could always have a frame of reference once there and to get to a new area you have to explore the wormholes. If you find one you like and meet some nice friendly Aliens that will let you rent out some station space, being able to jump back and forth to known locations would be very very cool. maybe you could one day just live in this new space
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:54:00 - [118] Ok, a couple questions here: 1) I'm a pirate with a covops alt. While waiting for targets, I have a set of exploration probes out on my alt, giving me free profit as well as scanning down any targets that happen to show up. From your description, it sounds like this is going to change... will I no longer be able to scan for both deadspace sites (and wormholes?) and ships at the same time? 2) You have stated that you can't cyno jump into a wormhole, but could you clarify whether you can jump *out*? If I bring my carrier through the wormhole, can I simply jump out to a non-wormhole system like normal (avoiding the mass limit, and avoiding getting stuck)? -----------
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:54:00 - [119] I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Wormhole Space, Ghetto Sov. 1) Your corp locates a suitable wormhole system. A suitable wormhole system has, at a minimum, an ice belt and some method of getting minerals, as well as a wormhole that can admit your Rorqual in step 2. 2) You load up a Rorqual with the following: * 6 clones of people with strong mining and combat skills, as well as one good manufacturer * Some macks / hulks / haulers * A good selection of T1 BPOs A large tower A corp hanger A ship maint. array A refining array A large ship assembly array A medium ship assembly array A small ship assembly array An ammunition assembly array A drone assembly array An equipment assembly array By my calculations all those POS parts use up 84,750m3 of space, which leaves a little over 50K for fuel and equipment. 3) You take your Rorqual into the system (as CCP has already said caps can use wormholes). Bring in additional supplies via industrial ships (whose pilots are NOT cloned on the Rorqual) until the wormhole collapses. 4) Set up your POS 5) Clone jump your pilots in 6) Start mining fuel, minerals, and building up your fleet. Your explorer pilot looks for wormholes going back to Empire while this is going on. 7) When your explorer finds a suitable wormhole, bring out more of your forces. And some POS guns. Continue doing this until you're moved out completely. 8) You now own a wormhole system. Feel free to gank any exploring noobs mercilessly :P. Use medical clones and your Rorqual's clone bay to get pods in and out of Empire easily. Move T3 materials and surplus minerals when suitable wormholes to empire are available.
dojocan81	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:58:00 - [120] Edited by: dojocan81 on 26/01/2009 15:58:44 hm, nice idea ... can you even clone jump into a wormhole system ? b/c if so, this idea above can work ... and it would be fatal for "new probers" btw, iam looking forward for this part of the new expansion hell, iam really excited about it ... go on ccp, /thumpsup

Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:59:00 - [121] Originally by: CCP Whisper Regarding gate camps: When you go through a wormhole you will appear at the exit wormhole. Theoretically it is possible that someone could set up a gate camp on the other side, but pilots can view how much mass and time left on the wormhole, so pilots need to make a value judgment about whether to jump through. Of course, there is also the chance that the campers get over enthusiastic and only leave enough mass for one more pilot to jump through. Which would cause the wormhole to collapse. So the campers might end up stuck in the wormhole system...and if they haven't got a ship with a probe launcher, well they'll be in an interesting position to be sure. Sounds like a pirate's paradise. Here's a question, if people enter a wormhole, the wormhole collapses with people in there, what can happen? - Will another wormhole linked to another part of space then be opened and the new people meet the squatters? If so what's the spawn time? - In the case above, do wormholes appear in completely different parts of the entire galaxy, or within the same region / constellation as current exploration sites do? ie will we have the hypothetical scenario that a bunch of BoB explorers open up a chunk of wormhole space and find a load of Goons in there?
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:00:00 - [122] Is it me, or does this whole expansion scream JOVE!
Onyx Asablot M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:01:00 - [123] Edited by: Onyx Asablot on 26/01/2009 16:01:44 Great dev blog thanks, i'm very excited as exploration is something that HAS to be in a space game... remember in Elite jumping into the unknown for as far as your fuel would take you :) One question for the dev's, will there be a galaxy map for the new wormhole space, and will there therefore be an autopilot? Personally I hope not. Even better would be that the wormhole only adds systems as you visit them, so you have to build up your own map as you explore. I would hate to warp into wormhole space and suddenly see it all mapped out perfectly...
Deva Blackfire Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:05:00 - [124] sex
Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:06:00 - [125] Originally by: Onyx Asablot Edited by: Onyx Asablot on 26/01/2009 16:01:44 Great dev blog thanks, i'm very excited as exploration is something that HAS to be in a space game... remember in Elite jumping into the unknown for as far as your fuel would take you :) One question for the dev's, will there be a galaxy map for the new wormhole space, and will there therefore be an autopilot? Personally I hope not. Even better would be that the wormhole only adds systems as you visit them, so you have to build up your own map as you explore. I would hate to warp into wormhole space and suddenly see it all mapped out perfectly... Or is this going to go the other way and you will never have a Galaxy Map that includes Wormhole systems you've been too (assuming they are added as they are visited)
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:09:00 - [126] Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Wormhole Space, Ghetto Sov. 1) Your corp locates a suitable wormhole system. A suitable wormhole system has, at a minimum, an ice belt and some method of getting minerals, as well as a wormhole that can admit your Rorqual in step 2. 2) You load up a Rorqual with the following: * 6 clones of people with strong mining and combat skills, as well as one good manufacturer * Some macks / hulks / haulers * A good selection of T1 BPOs A large tower A corp hanger A ship maint. array A refining array A large ship assembly array A medium ship assembly array A small ship assembly array An ammunition assembly array A drone assembly array An equipment assembly array By my calculations all those POS parts use up 84,750m3 of space, which leaves a little over 50K for fuel and equipment. 3) You take your Rorqual into the system (as CCP has already said caps can use wormholes). Bring in additional supplies via industrial ships (whose pilots are NOT cloned on the Rorqual) until the wormhole collapses. 4) Set up your POS 5) Clone jump your pilots in 6) Start mining fuel, minerals, and building up your fleet. Your explorer pilot looks for wormholes going back to Empire while this is going on. 7) When your explorer finds a suitable wormhole, bring out more of your forces. And some POS guns. Continue doing this until you're moved out completely. 8) You now own a wormhole system. Feel free to gank any exploring noobs mercilessly :P. Use medical clones and your Rorqual's clone bay to get pods in and out of Empire easily. Move T3 materials and surplus minerals when suitable wormholes to empire are available. Personally, i hope this sort of thing isn't possible. I want to be able scan out a worm hole, go to it, and start exploring, if someone else in local, ignore them or gank them. Hopefull it will be empty. I don't want to end up with large allaince's or corporations to start claiming wormhole systems for themselves, it might as well be more conquerable 0.0 if they allow that. it should allow small, roving groups to jump in for however long they want to be there, collecting items and exploring, then come back to empire when they are ready. Being able to jump clone in and out would defeat the whole purpose of wormholes IMHO.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:11:00 - [127] Some responses to points raised so far: System Naming: The systems are not going to be named, and once you jump through you should not see any information regarding name, constellation or region in the upper left-hand corner as you would in known space. And no, you will not see where a wormhole leads before you jump through. All you can see is the information regarding how much mass and time remains of its initial allocation. What happens when the wormhole closes behind you? You need to scan down a wormhole which leads back to known space. Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. You just need to find it. Is there any chance of seeing 1-way wormholes? Yes. Mass and time will be randomly assigned when the wormhole spawns. If the mass allocation of the wormhole equals that of your ship it is going to definitely be a one-way journey.

Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:13:00 - [128] So.. - the 1000+ Wormholesystems in Wormhole Eden itself are static - their connections between each other and - their conns to New Eden itself will be of random temporary nature.. If you go in (with a small group), grab what you can and go back out you're fine. If you try to bring some pos/cap for longer stayovers you'll have some fun waiting-time to get the stuff back out there. Resuppling the POS with the npc stuff is out of question anyways, so you need to bring all in one haul.. and as you don't know when/where you'll get the products back to new eden.. tough. Although, when you use up all of the Wormholes mass, you're relatively safe.. nice. Zapping along Wormhole Eden with some mobile base until you find some exit, well, that sounds like the life of the thukkers.. great! Which kind of Ship would allow for that, when MSs are sucking up the WH mass at one traverse? I bet the Orca will be the ship of choice for such a way of living of a group of people..
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:16:00 - [129] Originally by: CCP Whisper System Naming: The systems are not going to be named, and once you jump through you should not see any information regarding name, constellation or region in the upper left-hand corner as you would in known space. And no, you will not see where a wormhole leads before you jump through. All you can see is the information regarding how much mass and time remains of its initial allocation. But can you look up the SolarSystemID via the API and use that as an identifier for the system, or are you going to nerf that too?
Noggin TheNog Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:17:00 - [130] Originally by: Last Wolf Is it me, or does this whole expansion scream JOVE! Methinks not. If you read the EVE novel (which is cool, by the way) then at the end, the epilogue bit, the dying dude in the battered ship (no spoilers here!), I reckon that's one massive, hefty, pointer to the galactic cataclysm that they're hinting at in this blog, and I'd not be at all surprised if the new NPCs were terrans... Nog


CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:17:00 - [131] Originally by: ardik [...] do you want to wander around in some totally empty wasteland with no other people in sight, clicking scan every couple minutes to hope you find a site with ******ed NPCs that you can kill with so little effort, that the most common PVE question in Eve is about what setups you can AFK with? [...] The only thing I can respond to this with is: Wait until you see what the team in charge of NPC's and NPC AI have come up with. Anyone who ventures into wormhole space expecting the same sort of NPC behaviour from the wormhole NPC's as from the ones in known space is in for a bit of a shock. It's going to be awesome.

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:19:00 - [132] If you can pull that off as awesome as it sounds, I may have to eat my hat. The only 'wtf' moment here is warping probes. Sounds kinda cheesy to me. So, what about local? You revised the map and the scanner, but didn't say anything about how instant intel will be in these systems.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:20:00 - [133] Originally by: CCP Whisper Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. You just need to find it. Oh. So you can't be "lost in wormhole space" in the sense that the only wormhole from your current system leads to other wormhole space? Quote: Jove More like, Talocan and Sleeper.
Artmedis Valben Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:20:00 - [134] Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Wormhole Space, Ghetto Sov. 1) Your corp locates a suitable wormhole system. A suitable wormhole system has, at a minimum, an ice belt and some method of getting minerals, as well as a wormhole that can admit your Rorqual in step 2. 2) You load up a Rorqual with the following: * 6 clones of people with strong mining and combat skills, as well as one good manufacturer * Some macks / hulks / haulers * A good selection of T1 BPOs A large tower A corp hanger A ship maint. array A refining array A large ship assembly array A medium ship assembly array A small ship assembly array An ammunition assembly array A drone assembly array An equipment assembly array By my calculations all those POS parts use up 84,750m3 of space, which leaves a little over 50K for fuel and equipment. 3) You take your Rorqual into the system (as CCP has already said caps can use wormholes). Bring in additional supplies via industrial ships (whose pilots are NOT cloned on the Rorqual) until the wormhole collapses. 4) Set up your POS 5) Clone jump your pilots in 6) Start mining fuel, minerals, and building up your fleet. Your explorer pilot looks for wormholes going back to Empire while this is going on. 7) When your explorer finds a suitable wormhole, bring out more of your forces. And some POS guns. Continue doing this until you're moved out completely. 8) You now own a wormhole system. Feel free to gank any exploring noobs mercilessly :P. Use medical clones and your Rorqual's clone bay to get pods in and out of Empire easily. Move T3 materials and surplus minerals when suitable wormholes to empire are available. Sounds great, They key is finding a wormhole with an Ice Belt. Even so bringing in enough of the trade commodities for long term fuelling may be very difficult. Will some wormhole systems have Ice belts? Will they all have Planets, Moons and asteroid belts in addition to these new T3 exploration sites? Regarding any means other than wormholes to enter the new space being declared an exploit. we really need answers to whether this includes JCing to a Rorqual/Mothership. Also whether jumping out is also an exploit. Simpler would just be to make sure that all new wormhole systems are at least 15-20ly away from mapped spaced. I assume that all the new systems will be at a fixed location in space even though wormholes to these will be "random" (perhaps within some parameters, such as 25-30ly max). Or you could simply not allow cyno gens to function in the wormhole space, thus allowing exit by jump capitals to mapped systems in range, even if they can only enter through wormholes. If you fail to do either, and I can find a nice wormhole system in jumprange of mapped space, I would find it ridiculous to ban accounts that exploit this glitz.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:22:00 - [135] Originally by: Random Neg Originally by: Onyx Asablot [...]One question for the dev's, will there be a galaxy map for the new wormhole space, and will there therefore be an autopilot? Personally I hope not. Even better would be that the wormhole only adds systems as you visit them, so you have to build up your own map as you explore. I would hate to warp into wormhole space and suddenly see it all mapped out perfectly... Or is this going to go the other way and you will never have a Galaxy Map that includes Wormhole systems you've been too (assuming they are added as they are visited) Wormhole systems will not be added to your universe map as you find them. You are not even going to get a "You are here" indicator floating off in the blackness of space. Wormhole space was designed to be the great unknown with constantly shifting connections. Of course some things we cannot prevent, such as determining the system ID and slowly building up a database of what's in the systems. But seeing as the main content of these systems is through randomly distributed exploration and encounter sites I think we can live with someone eventually compiling a list of the wormhole systems.

Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:26:00 - [136] Don't **** up this new space with crappy sov mechanics and anchorable structures please.
Ha'Uler GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:27:00 - [137] If the new systems won't be named, what will the killmails say?
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:28:00 - [138] And would it be possible to use your ship scanner to find a worm whole out say, after 1 hour of scanning? Might save yourselves a few thousand petitions a week. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:29:00 - [139] Edited by: Des Jardin on 26/01/2009 16:30:42 Edited by: Des Jardin on 26/01/2009 16:29:32 Originally by: CCP Whisper Wormhole systems will not be added to your universe map as you find them. You are not even going to get a "You are here" indicator floating off in the blackness of space. Wormhole space was designed to be the great unknown with constantly shifting connections. Of course some things we cannot prevent, such as determining the system ID and slowly building up a database of what's in the systems. But seeing as the main content of these systems is through randomly distributed exploration and encounter sites I think we can live with someone eventually compiling a list of the wormhole systems. Why does this make me think of "You are lost in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike." Guess a cargo load of secure containers will be the order of the day for explorers. Des Jardin
Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:29:00 - [140] Originally by: Tres Farmer So.. - the 1000+ Wormholesystems in Wormhole Eden itself are static - their connections between each other and - their conns to New Eden itself will be of random temporary nature.. If you go in (with a small group), grab what you can and go back out you're fine. If you try to bring some pos/cap for longer stayovers you'll have some fun waiting-time to get the stuff back out there. Resuppling the POS with the npc stuff is out of question anyways, so you need to bring all in one haul.. and as you don't know when/where you'll get the products back to new eden.. tough. Although, when you use up all of the Wormholes mass, you're relatively safe.. nice. Zapping along Wormhole Eden with some mobile base until you find some exit, well, that sounds like the life of the thukkers.. great! Which kind of Ship would allow for that, when MSs are sucking up the WH mass at one traverse? I bet the Orca will be the ship of choice for such a way of living of a group of people.. I question the choice of using an Orca in such a situation, it's not built to survive combat as is, but it is a good base design for a Deep Space Ship meant to weather the unknowns. To me, taking a Orca into a wormhole system is like taking it into Low Sec or Null Sec space.

maarud Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:30:00 - [141] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Don't **** up this new space with crappy sov mechanics and anchorable structures please. Doesn't sound like there is going to be sov, but sounds like you can put towers up. Maarud.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:30:00 - [142] Why not make black ops ships able to influence the unstable wormhole once on the other side into Stealth Mode for an X period of time. Where X can be random number from 1 hr through 12 hrs. Able to do only once. This way you can have the system all to yourself for a short amount of time. :D
Herio Mortis HYDRA MANUFACTURING Corp O X I D E	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:32:00 - [143] If it's suddenly a bit wet around here, it's ok. Just me drooling... Really cool stuff, but I still think we a yay/nay answer on the jump clone question.
gpfault Haunted House	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:34:00 - [144] Originally by: Random Neg I question the choice of using an Orca in such a situation, it's not built to survive combat as is, but it is a good base design for a Deep Space Ship meant to weather the unknowns. To me, taking a Orca into a wormhole system is like taking it into Low Sec or Null Sec space. T2 orca anyone?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:34:00 - [145] Originally by: Des Jardin Edited by: Des Jardin on 26/01/2009 16:30:42 Edited by: Des Jardin on 26/01/2009 16:29:32 Originally by: CCP Whisper Wormhole systems will not be added to your universe map as you find them. You are not even going to get a "You are here" indicator floating off in the blackness of space. Wormhole space was designed to be the great unknown with constantly shifting connections. Of course some things we cannot prevent, such as determining the system ID and slowly building up a database of what's in the systems. But seeing as the main content of these systems is through randomly distributed exploration and encounter sites I think we can live with someone eventually compiling a list of the wormhole systems. Why does this make me think of "You are lost in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike." Guess a cargo load of secure containers will be the order of the day for explorers. Des Jardin I can imagine the secure containers already. "TURN BACK" "ABANDON ALL HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE" "WORMHOLE NEAR COLLAPSE - DO NOT USE!!" "IF YOU CAN SEE THIS CAN YOU QUALIFY FOR CORP X" etc. etc. etc.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:37:00 - [146] Originally by: Gamer4liff I can imagine the secure containers already. "TURN BACK" "ABANDON ALL HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE" "WORMHOLE NEAR COLLAPSE - DO NOT USE!!" "IF YOU CAN SEE THIS CAN YOU QUALIFY FOR CORP X" etc. etc. etc. "welcome to new goonadonia"
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:37:00 - [147] I see this being tons of fun. It's going to suck the first time I get stranded (I'm sure it's going to happen). HOWEVER What I'm curious about is if they will appear on overview once probed out. If you absolutely NEED a prober to find wormholes that have already been activated... I will be disappointed
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:38:00 - [148] You're telling us an advanced space-faring race cannot use the stars and spacey stuff of the surroundings to figure out; Have I been here before? Please consider adding some kind of unique ID for systems displayed _in client_, and not some out-of-client hack. I don't care about maps, I just want to know if i've been in a system before.
Makko Gray Gallente Nexus Aerospace Corporation Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:40:00 - [149] If capital ships can use wormholes I'm imagining there will need to be some check when entering a wormhole back into known space to bar them from going through if it leads back to high sec space. As such I imagine this could be used by pirates worried about jumping into empire and getting shot. How will the changes to scanning affect ships and ship bonuses to scanning? Will we see some more robust ships coming better able to cope with the dual roles of scanning and combat in these new and potential harsh enviroments?
Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:40:00 - [150] Originally by: gpfault Originally by: Random Neg I question the choice of using an Orca in such a situation, it's not built to survive combat as is, but it is a good base design for a Deep Space Ship meant to weather the unknowns. To me, taking a Orca into a wormhole system is like taking it into Low Sec or Null Sec space. T2 orca anyone? Or T3?

Zothike Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:42:00 - [151] Question : Does system can be accessible twice with a different wormhole, in short if i'm stuck with my ship in a pocket of space only accessible threw wormhole if i'm patient/******ed enought to wait x days/weeks/months , do i have a chance to see my pocket of space available again by a brand new "enter in" wormhole -(linked with above question)if i'm stuck and i decide to go home in pod by self destruction, if i eject from my ship how long it will float in space before being removed ? 1 month timer like actual secure cans ?
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:42:00 - [152] Originally by: Makko Gray Will we see some more robust ships coming better able to cope with the dual roles of scanning and combat in these new and potential harsh enviroments? i think tech 3 should handle this.
Kendala Ciistu	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:42:00 - [153] Will wormhole systems contain ice belts?
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:46:00 - [154] Originally by: maarud Originally by: Pattern Clarc Don't **** up this new space with crappy sov mechanics and anchorable structures please. Doesn't sound like there is going to be sov, but sounds like you can put towers up. I was refering to the ghetto sov post
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:46:00 - [155] Originally by: Adam C oh and im guessin' jovians :D Night be but if you have been following the NPC AI thread you will find that the most important new thing about these ships is that they will be tough as and behave like player ships. The optimal setup to kill them is supposed to be a standard pvp setup not pve.
gpfault Haunted House	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:48:00 - [156] Originally by: Random Neg Originally by: gpfault Originally by: Random Neg I question the choice of using an Orca in such a situation, it's not built to survive combat as is, but it is a good base design for a Deep Space Ship meant to weather the unknowns. To me, taking a Orca into a wormhole system is like taking it into Low Sec or Null Sec space. T2 orca anyone? Or T3? Maybe, but with T3 being limited to cruiser sized ships T3 indy ships (assuming they exist) probably can't match the orca in terms of cargo bay, etc.
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:49:00 - [157] Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Wormhole Space, Ghetto Sov. 1) Your corp locates a suitable wormhole system. A suitable wormhole system has, at a minimum, an ice belt and some method of getting minerals, as well as a wormhole that can admit your Rorqual in step 2. 2) You load up a Rorqual with the following: * 6 clones of people with strong mining and combat skills, as well as one good manufacturer * Some macks / hulks / haulers * A good selection of T1 BPOs A large tower A corp hanger A ship maint. array A refining array A large ship assembly array A medium ship assembly array A small ship assembly array An ammunition assembly array A drone assembly array An equipment assembly array By my calculations all those POS parts use up 84,750m3 of space, which leaves a little over 50K for fuel and equipment. 3) You take your Rorqual into the system (as CCP has already said caps can use wormholes). Bring in additional supplies via industrial ships (whose pilots are NOT cloned on the Rorqual) until the wormhole collapses. 4) Set up your POS 5) Clone jump your pilots in 6) Start mining fuel, minerals, and building up your fleet. Your explorer pilot looks for wormholes going back to Empire while this is going on. 7) When your explorer finds a suitable wormhole, bring out more of your forces. And some POS guns. Continue doing this until you're moved out completely. 8) You now own a wormhole system. Feel free to gank any exploring noobs mercilessly :P. Use medical clones and your Rorqual's clone bay to get pods in and out of Empire easily. Move T3 materials and surplus minerals when suitable wormholes to empire are available. To continue the idea. CCP has said that cyno won't work new eden <> wild space, likely by simply putting the new systems outside proper lightyear range, but cyno will work wild space <> wild space. So: Continuing from above: Bring in more Rorquals or Carriers, and Orcas. Continue Exploring, as you find new systems, deploy PoS. Check that every system you take over, is whiting correct LY range from your other systems. Build a systems network, map it, let a corp on the alliance have one system, control multiple systems. Keep a supply network, let the corps keep a eye out for suitable connections to empire, for resupply, trade goods, etc. Build a vast shadow empire :) totally awesome /Riv
BlackHorizon Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:50:00 - [158] Edited by: BlackHorizon on 26/01/2009 16:50:24 It would be interesting (and good, imho) if killmails were eliminated completely from wormhole systems. How would Concord know what's happening over there anyway? Ditto for sov mechanics -- no Concord.
Legolyl	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:52:00 - [159] Edited by: Legolyl on 26/01/2009 16:53:20 Edited by: Legolyl on 26/01/2009 16:52:51 I got an idea for the thing with the existing probes or at least for the BPOs. Insert an "upgrade blueprint" into the game. It works like this: Old probeBPO + upgradeBPO -> new probeBPO. So it works like a fusion. Concerning the material an timelvl you may inhert it by 75%. But at the moment i got no idea what to do with the existing probes... Mhh, maybe fusion the existing probes with one electronic part? Regards, Legolyl
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:55:00 - [160] interesting reworking on the probes, had a feeling using exploration probes for finding mission runners would get spooned at some point. I want more!!!!!!! Dammit, why can't it be March!

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:57:00 - [161] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab You're telling us an advanced space-faring race cannot use the stars and spacey stuff of the surroundings to figure out; Have I been here before? Please consider adding some kind of unique ID for systems displayed _in client_, and not some out-of-client hack. I don't care about maps, I just want to know if i've been in a system before. AND how will this work with the new backgrounds? where will these stellers backgrounds be?
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:57:00 - [162] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 26/01/2009 16:50:24 It would be interesting (and good, imho) if killmails were eliminated completely from wormhole systems. How would Concord know what's happening over there anyway? Ditto for sov mechanics -- no Concord. There is still the quantum mechanics communication thingie, distance does not matter. So concord gets the same reports in Wormspace as in New Eden.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:02:00 - [163] Is quality of wormhole based on truesec or just 0.0 vs lowsec vs empire? If so does pirate sov get counted?
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:03:00 - [164] What about bookmarks? If I create one in a system will it still be there and usable if I get back. If that works you could use bookmarks to index the systems to check if you have been there before etc.
Jenna Malone Caldari W-hat LLC	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:03:00 - [165] Will the NPC stuff be combat only, or are there means of getting stuff by doing trading, missions or exploration, too?
Pueblo Station	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:03:00 - [166] While i'm liking the wormhole idea and the exploration, the randomness of wormholes is making it sound like tech 3 ships will cost hundreds of millions of isk for a good while and no one will want to fly them for fear of losing their investment. I hope i'm wrong, I was hoping T3 would be more accessable. Here's hoping you won't need millions of SP into science skills just to build the stuff.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:05:00 - [167] Still didn't answer - How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? And it was mentioned getting into these systems by any means other than wormhole is a sploit. But yet you might get lucky and send a mothership through. So is it a sploit to use clone vat bays of rorqual and motherships? PS: I'm pretty sure capitals shouldn't be allowed here, except maybe Orca.
Digital Anarchist THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:08:00 - [168] So in short: 1. No sov 2. No cynos 2. No system name or starmap Will there be bookmarks? That's the only way I would see as a means to reference the new systems. Also, will regions of exploration space be momentarily separated from normal space, or would there always be a route open?
Ordais	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:08:00 - [169] hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. ALT-land anyone? i see alts will become mandatory if you want to explore. one combat ship, one scanning ship. ok for me, but it doesnt sound like good game-design.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:10:00 - [170] Originally by: Des Jardin Why does this make me think of "You are lost in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike." This. Awesome.

Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:11:00 - [171] this is friggin awesome
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:11:00 - [172] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 26/01/2009 16:50:24 It would be interesting (and good, imho) if killmails were eliminated completely from wormhole systems. How would Concord know what's happening over there anyway? Ditto for sov mechanics -- no Concord. now why would that be good?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:12:00 - [173] Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. ALT-land anyone? i see alts will become mandatory if you want to explore. one combat ship, one scanning ship. ok for me, but it doesnt sound like good game-design. why would you need a scanner ship? I'll just slap one on my hurricane, tada.
Diana Plex	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:13:00 - [174] Originally by: Chribba Edited by: Chribba on 26/01/2009 12:43:12 And off we go!! woot woot! and edit/Diamond Veldspar! HERE I COME! Does this mean that the Veldnaught will be heading into a wormhole? Oh and does that also mean we are going to get a Empire legal version of the Orca fit to fly exploration teams? (yes I have seen the crews who already use an orca for exploration, a ship not fitted exclusivly for exploration would be better though)
TimGascoigne The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:14:00 - [175] CEO: Tim why haven't you been active this last week, we don't need apathetic characters like you now give me one reason why shouldn't remove you from the corp! TimGascouigne: It's not my fault its just a wormhole collapsed behind me and I found myself in unchartered space in inhabited by a mysterious civilisation which was at war with the........ ( the story continues) but seriously will these wormholes look like a wardrobe leading to a land where its permanently winter?
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:17:00 - [176] Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. ALT-land anyone? i see alts will become mandatory if you want to explore. one combat ship, one scanning ship. ok for me, but it doesnt sound like good game-design. the new probing system sounds like you will be able to fit them onto your battleship. using a specialized probe ship was never mandatory btw... just took 5x as long with 10% success chance. i sure hope the new mechanics will make using probes on non-specialized ships more viable. on a different note, given the difficulty of setting up a POS tower in wormhole space, it would be cool if a new kind of portable moon-mining system were developed... maybe some new ship that goes into a siege-mode and collects moon minerals for the duration. this would allow these new systems to more easily alleviate the currently insane moon mineral market.
Diana Plex	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:20:00 - [177] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: ardik oh and more content based around the BRILLIANT probing system* that we all know and love! worst *ing feature in eve by far, who the came up with the idea of clicking scan every 5 minutes and thought that would be fun and exciting? seriously, give me just 1 **ing reply in this thread that states they enjoy probing. just 1. Uhm...did you miss the part where I mentioned we're revamping the scanning system? It's the bullet-pointed list about half-way down. Well to be honest? while we do trust you guys to come up with solutions to the problem we also trust you to come up with the problems in the first place. After all who came up with the problem childs known as the probeing system, BPO lotterys and so on?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:20:00 - [178] Originally by: Rex Lashar Still didn't answer - How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? And it was mentioned getting into these systems by any means other than wormhole is a sploit. But yet you might get lucky and send a mothership through. So is it a sploit to use clone vat bays of rorqual and motherships? PS: I'm pretty sure capitals shouldn't be allowed here, except maybe Orca. Oh god somebody please answer this ;_;
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:23:00 - [179] Originally by: CCP Wrangler New places to go, new things to see, new people to kill, more loot to be had, but only if you're skilled and lucky. It's all about expanding the frontier of EVE and gaining more riches than ever before in Whisper's new blog: Sic Itur Ad Astra - Building a New Bridge to the Stars! Awesome. Just awesome. A huge step in the right direction. Thank you.
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:27:00 - [180] hey hey This is why i went to Fanfest :)

Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:29:00 - [181] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 26/01/2009 17:33:54 NM
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:31:00 - [182] Originally by: CCP Whisper Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. Noooooooooooooo....... No 'search for eve space' - treck then? So it is always guaranteed that you can move from wormhole space directly into eve-space through one single wormhole? Please consider that!! It would be even more awesome if there would be an x% chance that there are only wormholes leading into wormhole space and not back to eve space! This way it would be really possible that you would end up with some space-nomanding in the (desperate) search for a way back.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:33:00 - [183] Originally by: Hoshi What about bookmarks? If I create one in a system will it still be there and usable if I get back. If that works you could use bookmarks to index the systems to check if you have been there before etc. The bookmark system will work as it does now, although you won't get system name autocompleted for you so get ready to figure out a naming convention that lets you keep track of them. And yes, this would be one way to keep track of the systems you have visited. Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems.

Erakyn Big Orange Cog	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:33:00 - [184] Love the changes and can't wait for them to be implemented. But as an owner of both a Sister's Recon Probe Launcher, and a Sister's Scan Launcher.... Will these items be replaced with new faction equivalents?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:33:00 - [185] Yes one mothership might be equivalent to 30 regular ships going through. But manpower is the real resource here. When someone dies you can get them back. Without clone vats, if someone died your entire gang/corp is diminished far worse than the cost of 1 ship. For ships, you can just drop a small POS and build up a ton of replacements on only 1 week of fuel (which ms can easily hold).
Ryuga VonRhaiden Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:33:00 - [186] just don't make exploration too easy please... ;)
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:34:00 - [187] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: CCP Whisper Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. Noooooooooooooo....... No 'search for eve space' - treck then? So it is always guaranteed that you can move from wormhole space directly into eve-space through one single wormhole? Please consider that!! It would be even more awesome if there would be an x% chance that there are only wormholes leading into wormhole space and not back to eve space! This way it would be really possible that you would end up with some space-nomanding in the (desperate) search for a way back. they said leads you back not leads you back right away. . .
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:35:00 - [188] Originally by: CCP Whisper How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems. thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you
croxis Gallente Firstones	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:35:00 - [189] Will this, someday, allow player built stargates to be made?
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:36:00 - [190] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: CCP Whisper Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. Noooooooooooooo....... No 'search for eve space' - treck then? So it is always guaranteed that you can move from wormhole space directly into eve-space through one single wormhole? Please consider that!! It would be even more awesome if there would be an x% chance that there are only wormholes leading into wormhole space and not back to eve space! This way it would be really possible that you would end up with some space-nomanding in the (desperate) search for a way back. The Dev's have said that there are also chances that a wormhole in a wormhole system could lead to another wormhole system. This means that there is a chance of more then 1 wormhole being in a system. To lazy to go an quote it but a dev was describing going from wormhole system to wormhole system. They have also stated that there is no way to know where a wormhole goes. So when in a wormhole system you do not know if the wormhole you are looking at goes to a standard system or a wh (yes, getting very lazy here) system. The same dev I talked about above was describing a situation where in looking for a way back to empire you go from wh system to wh system and lose your way back to the system you started in. This could be a very large problem if you have a POS in that system because there is no guaranteed way of getting back there,

Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:36:00 - [191] So... are wormholes going to be like FW beacons in he sense that once they are found everyone can see them? - MY LATEST VIDEO - FRIGANK 4
Ha'Uler GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:38:00 - [192] Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. ALT-land anyone? i see alts will become mandatory if you want to explore. one combat ship, one scanning ship. ok for me, but it doesnt sound like good game-design. Not alts, but corpmates and friends.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:39:00 - [193] Originally by: Ha'Uler Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. ALT-land anyone? i see alts will become mandatory if you want to explore. one combat ship, one scanning ship. ok for me, but it doesnt sound like good game-design. Not alts, but corpmates and friends. What he said.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:39:00 - [194] Originally by: Gnulpie It would be even more awesome if there would be an x% chance that there are only wormholes leading into wormhole space and not back to eve space! This way it would be really possible that you would end up with some space-nomanding in the (desperate) search for a way back. I'll let Greyscale answer this in more detail in his blog, but I think he's come up with a different solution in the interim that might make getting home bit more difficult from the wormholes with higher difficulty levels. So yes, it might turn into an epic trek back home.

Betty Sw'ollocks	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:41:00 - [195] Sounds absolutely awesome. I want to give CCP all my 'stuff'. In a loving and consenting way.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:41:00 - [196] Originally by: Rex Lashar Still didn't answer - How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? And it was mentioned getting into these systems by any means other than wormhole is a sploit. But yet you might get lucky and send a mothership through. So is it a sploit to use clone vat bays of rorqual and motherships? PS: I'm pretty sure capitals shouldn't be allowed here, except maybe Orca. If you are stupid enough to send a MS on a one way trip through a wormhole where it might get stuck forever please let us know if it work to JC to it. I doubt you will have much of a success though.
Karab Gerlinger Rim Collection RC Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:42:00 - [197] Oh goodness, the excitement! I can barely contain it! And this line owns: "In fact one of my biggest challenges will be stopping PrismX from adding ten thousand systems now that he's gotten a taste of being a deity in creative mood."
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:43:00 - [198] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Gnulpie It would be even more awesome if there would be an x% chance that there are only wormholes leading into wormhole space and not back to eve space! This way it would be really possible that you would end up with some space-nomanding in the (desperate) search for a way back. I'll let Greyscale answer this in more detail in his blog, but I think he's come up with a different solution in the interim that might make getting home bit more difficult from the wormholes with higher difficulty levels. So yes, it might turn into an epic trek back home. Wooooooot!! love you all
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:44:00 - [199] Edited by: Rex Lashar on 26/01/2009 17:44:41 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Rex Lashar Still didn't answer - How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? And it was mentioned getting into these systems by any means other than wormhole is a sploit. But yet you might get lucky and send a mothership through. So is it a sploit to use clone vat bays of rorqual and motherships? PS: I'm pretty sure capitals shouldn't be allowed here, except maybe Orca. If you are stupid enough to send a MS on a one way trip through a wormhole where it might get stuck forever please let us know if it work to JC to it. I doubt you will have much of a success though. Why wouldn't a jump clone work if everyone set one up beforehand? When they activate it from empire, they just install another right after. And its not really a stupid move if the MS can travel around via wormholes. A mothership makes for a more practical logistics platform than a POS or Orca. Besides, 15bil is peanuts compared to the riches you could get. Fighters would help with new NPCs too presumably.
Ordais	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:45:00 - [200] Edited by: Ordais on 26/01/2009 17:45:55 Originally by: Ha'Uler Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. ALT-land anyone? i see alts will become mandatory if you want to explore. one combat ship, one scanning ship. ok for me, but it doesnt sound like good game-design. Not alts, but corpmates and friends. Not really. As mass determines how many can go in there, you may get just enough to go in and out a couple of times. Meaning its not meant for large groups no? And if, as you say, its meant for corps/friends, then i want to claim it for my corp/group of friends to live in there and defend it. So, what shall it be?

fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:45:00 - [201] Edited by: fuxinos on 26/01/2009 17:45:37 I got 2 simple questions that hopefully get answered by a dev =D 1st: Assuming I set up a POS in such an "unexplored" system, how big are the chances to ever find back to that system to provide the POS with fuel? You stated that Wormholes randomly spawn and bring you to random systems, how is this going to work? 2nd: What will prevent 0.0 from getting more empty then it already is? If these "unexplored" systems have better rats, better belts and no police, why should people still go to 0.0? I think people will rather roam through that space and pvp there instead of roaming through empty 0.0 space, espacialy in the first few weeks/month were these new systems will be crowded like hell. Can someone give me a bit more insight on this?
james126	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:46:00 - [202] Edited by: james126 on 26/01/2009 17:46:27 you sayed it wont be possible/an explote to cyno in from known space to worm hole space, but will it be possible to cyno from worm hole space to worm hole space?
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:46:00 - [203] Quote: # You can recall probes for re-use at a later point and time What is the balance on this? If probes arent destroyed... the probe market will kerplode. Quote: There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. while the other 4 types are destroyed? Or are those items suddenly becoming like the Mines ingame. You have them... but you cant really do much with them. Quote: Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We already have this? Recon vs scan probe? Quote: We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. too which some of us have spent millions on... Quote: Why should you fly through these wormholes then? Well in the solar systems on the other side of the wormholes you will find new exploration sites patrolled by a brand new type of NPC. The salvage and loot drops from these NPC's and the exploration site rewards will provide you with the raw materials you will need to reverse engineer the technology that makes construction of the new Tech 3 ship modules possible. There will also be exploration sites with ore-rich asteroid belts just waiting to be found by an adventurous industry corp. Generally speaking it has been considered a highly negative thing with hidden roid belts now. Where Kernite spawns in high sec gallente space. Hurting the overall mix of things. And now you have uber npcs that likely instapop hulks.. meaning u need a couple battleships in order to defend the hulk... and they are ORE-rich? What kind of ORE? I can get bistot in a 0.8 system now? Quote: Wormholes will shift all the time. They will open and close and reopen at random locations throughout New Eden and thus present you with an ever-changing area of space that no-one can control all the choke-points to. So basically speaking this is a 0.0 nerf. Yaaaay. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Ron Bacardi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:47:00 - [204] The sheer unknown-ness of what could happen when you go into wormhole space is what makes this so awesome. TY CCP, can't wait!
TalonClark	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:48:00 - [205] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 26/01/2009 17:45:37 I got 2 simple questions that hopefully get answered by a dev =D 1st: Assuming I set up a POS in such an "unexplored" system, how big are the chances to ever find back to that system to provide the POS with fuel? You stated that Wormholes randomly spawn and bring you to random systems, how is this going to work? 2nd: What will prevent 0.0 from getting more empty then it already is? If these "unexplored" systems have better rats, better belts and no police, why should people still go to 0.0? I think people will rather roam through that space and pvp there instead of roaming through empty 0.0 space, espacialy in the first few weeks/month were these new systems will be crowded like hell. Can someone give me a bit more insight on this? if you control 0.0, its more relaxed there then going through a wormwhole, as you never know who is in there and if you can come back (the exploit of jumping in and out of a system just to depleat the wormwhole will be used alot).
Sprobe Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:49:00 - [206] Edited by: Sprobe on 26/01/2009 17:49:19 can you get pod-killed by NPCs in wormhole space? can you enter a wormhole with any kind of ship including your pod?
Karab Gerlinger Rim Collection RC Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:49:00 - [207] Originally by: james126 Edited by: james126 on 26/01/2009 17:46:27 you sayed it wont be possible/an explote to cyno in from known space to worm hole space, but will it be possible to cyno from worm hole space to worm hole space? Safe to assume cyno links wont reach vast distances of the wormhole link.
permion	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:49:00 - [208] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 26/01/2009 17:45:37 I got 2 simple questions that hopefully get answered by a dev =D 1st: Assuming I set up a POS in such an "unexplored" system, how big are the chances to ever find back to that system to provide the POS with fuel? You stated that Wormholes randomly spawn and bring you to random systems, how is this going to work? 2nd: What will prevent 0.0 from getting more empty then it already is? If these "unexplored" systems have better rats, better belts and no police, why should people still go to 0.0? I think people will rather roam through that space and pvp there instead of roaming through empty 0.0 space, espacialy in the first few weeks/month were these new systems will be crowded like hell. Can someone give me a bit more insight on this? normal 0.0 is always there and it's much more reliable in the sense you can set up logistics and defenses. ______________________ If there are no stargates that means there are no logs of who's in and out of the system, and that also means there are no laws about anoucing yourself to the stargate system. We can always dream can't we

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:51:00 - [209] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Local and Wormhole Space! Removing local from 0.0 has far reaching mechanical implications which are well beyond the scope of the project. Removing local just from wormhole space has been brought up but is not considered a part of the package we absolutely need to deliver. So it's not a top priority and thus hasn't been decided on. I'm somewhat afraid of people feeling it's too instanced if we do and 0.0 is not delayed. But like I said, outside of our scope. Were local to go away from 0.0 that will apply to wormhole space as well. So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. Dedicated probe ships needed. Well, not strictly. The fitting on the core scanner isn't that restrictive so you can fit it on any other ship. But I definitely do not recommend probing out a wormhole and then switching to a BS with no probes, go through it and get lost in space. So, you need someone with probes there but it doesn't have to be his only role. Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Edit: Also, there is no Space Hydra. /tinfoil right now!

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:52:00 - [210] need moar pictures , and let the blogging begin

Amy Wang	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:53:00 - [211] Edited by: Amy Wang on 26/01/2009 17:54:34 Will the wormhole space as such be interconnected by a) stargates and/or b) wormholes ? Or will any given wormhole system be completely insular bar its random wormhole connection(s) to high sec/low sec/o.o ? If they are connected between each other anyway will it be allowed to cyno capital ships between wormhole systems (I understand it is not allowed to use a cyno to reach wormhole space but if you are already there?) Will it be possible for wormhole systems to posses multiple wormholes to/from different destinations at the same time?
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:54:00 - [212] Originally by: CCP Whisper I'll let Greyscale answer this in more detail in his blog, but I think he's come up with a different solution in the interim that might make getting home bit more difficult from the wormholes with higher difficulty levels. So yes, it might turn into an epic trek back home. How will difficulty be determined? The current broken truesec mechanic or some more general system.
Ordais	Posted - 2009.01.26 17:56:00 - [213] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Well, its your choice tbh, if BMs are the only way to create a MAP of some sorts, then we will use them. Why create a map you say if the links change all the time? Simple no? To catalog the ressources in a system. If you dont want to create thousands of new BMs give us another way to chart the world.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:01:00 - [214] Originally by: CCP Prism X Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Edit: Also, there is no Space Hydra. /tinfoil right now! Every time I make a bookmark, I think of you. Then I make another, because I thought of you. ^_^ My Wormspace bookmarks folder will become large. VERY large.
Rieger VaunBraun InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:01:00 - [215] I have been playing this game since 2005, and there isn't a single expansion/nerf/boost/addition to this game that has sounded 1/100th as good as these wormholes sound. I simply can't wait.
dojocan81	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:03:00 - [216] i've a question and hopefully, it will be anwsered: lets say player a finds a wormhole in 0.0, player b one in 0.1 low sec is it possible, that 2 or more people from different corners of new eden, can catch up the same wormhole entrance ? or is it totally random ? or do wormhole system only have "one" entrance ? cheers
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:04:00 - [217] Originally by: Ordais Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Well, its your choice tbh, if BMs are the only way to create a MAP of some sorts, then we will use them. Why create a map you say if the links change all the time? Simple no? To catalog the ressources in a system. If you dont want to create thousands of new BMs give us another way to chart the world. Although I hate it, as I love the idea of getting a thrill because there is no system name and no way to know what system you are in, yea people are just going to create a billion and a half bookmarks. Best solution, just give the systems names like from 0.0, random wtf crap names. People will just create online databases with what is in what systems based on those names. If you don't, then yea, billion and a half bookmarks here we come. Unfortunately people are going to be much too willing to throw away that thrill of the unknown.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:04:00 - [218] Originally by: Rex Lashar Why wouldn't a jump clone work if everyone set one up beforehand? When they activate it from empire, they just install another right after. And its not really a stupid move if the MS can travel around via wormholes. A mothership makes for a more practical logistics platform than a POS or Orca. Besides, 15bil is peanuts compared to the riches you could get. Fighters would help with new NPCs too presumably. They might simply disable the feature, like disable the clonevat bay in an exploration area. As for jumping around with a MS, read through this whole thread again, it's seem very few wormholes will permit enough mass for a MS to get through. So yes it can be a one way trip to a single system that you won't see a big enough wormhole in for a very long time. But hey give it a try, only 15b.
Delana Locke	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:05:00 - [219] Originally by: CCP Whisper Wormhole systems will not be added to your universe map as you find them. You are not even going to get a "You are here" indicator floating off in the blackness of space. Wormhole space was designed to be the great unknown with constantly shifting connections. Of course some things we cannot prevent, such as determining the system ID and slowly building up a database of what's in the systems. But seeing as the main content of these systems is through randomly distributed exploration and encounter sites I think we can live with someone eventually compiling a list of the wormhole systems. CCP Whisper, I've skimmed the questions and comments here, so forgive me if I've repeated these questions. It sounds like there will be a variable number of wormhole connections to a fixed number of systems. Are the connections one-way or two-way? If I enter a system and setup a POS and I get "stranded" because the wormhole I was using has closed, I assume over time some wormhole will spawnin system and I could use that to move to another system (whether that be wormhole space or "normal" space). So you're never really "stranded" you're just unable to use your original connection back to home space. Can we also assume that the NPCs in wormhole space will not be known to CONCORD and thus not have any sort of ISK reward? In other words, the only way to profit off of wormhole space is to go in and come back with loot to trade?
Kayn Otar Samurai Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:09:00 - [220] Originally by: Ordais Originally by: CCP Prism X Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. Well, its your choice tbh, if BMs are the only way to create a MAP of some sorts, then we will use them. Why create a map you say if the links change all the time? Simple no? To catalog the ressources in a system. If you dont want to create thousands of new BMs give us another way to chart the world. We need some way to keep track of where we have been. If the systems don't have names, then we need to give them names. The only way to do that is with bookmarks. If you don't want bookmarks, then give the systems names, or galactic coordinates, or ID numbers, or ... anything. Not having names is pretty cool, initially. But eventually they will be given names, one way or another.

Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:09:00 - [221] Quote: So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. I take it you cant cyno into the system. Or use titan jumpbridge to cyno in neither. On the other side. You will be able to move a carrier lets say into the wormhole.. mass willing. How about pods going through? Lets say I have a a thanatos. I put all my friend's ships in the ship maint. Pods follow giving negligible mass deduction. Alternatively obviously the reverse works also. Bring corp hangar, some pos fuel, and a small pos. Tons of space to work things around. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:12:00 - [222] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Local and Wormhole Space! Removing local from 0.0 has far reaching mechanical implications which are well beyond the scope of the project. Removing local just from wormhole space has been brought up but is not considered a part of the package we absolutely need to deliver. So it's not a top priority and thus hasn't been decided on. I'm somewhat afraid of people feeling it's too instanced if we do and 0.0 is not delayed. But like I said, outside of our scope. Were local to go away from 0.0 that will apply to wormhole space as well. It was mentioned local revision would come in tandem with map and scanner revision, and more specifically - first half of 2009 according to Zulupark. Why not use wormhole space as a test bed? I don't see how it could possibly be interesting if local stays how it is. It would eliminate all feeling of exploration, mystery and danger if you could know 100% exactly who is in a system. If your upgraded scanning system is good, it should supplement things fine. Originally by: CCP Prism X So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. Is there a good chance you will cap the mass value at under capitals? I don't consider supercaps balanced and regular capitals might make the new NPC content too easy. Also, are POS in these new systems restricted by lack of ice or trade goods or both? Like, will you be able to bring in a bunch of trade goods if you know the system ahead has an ice belt? Originally by: CCP Prism X Dedicated probe ships needed. Well, not strictly. The fitting on the core scanner isn't that restrictive so you can fit it on any other ship. But I definitely do not recommend probing out a wormhole and then switching to a BS with no probes, go through it and get lost in space. So, you need someone with probes there but it doesn't have to be his only role. Can you give some indication of the scan speed and fittings of the pvp launcher? Will we ever see the difficulty of finding agent runners reduced some? What is the max range of the probes?
Dinsdale Pirannha Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:15:00 - [223] Originally by: CCP Prism X Dedicated probe ships needed. Well, not strictly. The fitting on the core scanner isn't that restrictive so you can fit it on any other ship. But I definitely do not recommend probing out a wormhole and then switching to a BS with no probes, go through it and get lost in space. So, you need someone with probes there but it doesn't have to be his only role. And this gets to the crux of the matter for me. Yes, probe launchers can be fit on any ship, but currently CovOps are the only class that is truly effective with probes. From all that I have read, you are destroying the utility of that ship. Plus all the skills exploration pilots have invested great time and effort honing, well they are utterly redundant or useless for wormhole exploration. If a 3 day old char can fit probe launchers (original blog stated "extremely low fitting requirements") and someone with the attention span of a 4 year old can operate them (the whole concept of mostly failure every scan cycle is tossed out), what is the point of getting involved in exploration? I loved the fact that exploration was about patience, planning, and using my human intelligence. Not many people did it because it was "boring" and had no instant gratification. Everyone will now be doing it, given how easy it will be. It sounds like once again, CCP has caved into the mandate that the game must be dumbed down to grab more of the market of 12 year old WoW players. Good business decision, awful game building decision. Please show me how I am wrong, and why I should continue building my exploration skills.
CydonianKnight THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:18:00 - [224] Edited by: CydonianKnight on 26/01/2009 18:18:50 Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Dedicated probe ships needed. Well, not strictly. The fitting on the core scanner isn't that restrictive so you can fit it on any other ship. But I definitely do not recommend probing out a wormhole and then switching to a BS with no probes, go through it and get lost in space. So, you need someone with probes there but it doesn't have to be his only role. So, do we have new probing ships that will be useful in combat coming ? (e.g. Cruiser/BC Hulls) Or will one member of the party have to forgoe one ship, to bring one with a probe launcher ? Alternatively both these question will get answered in future dev blogs ? Also any clue as to what the Skill Reqs. for the combat launcher may be like ?
Karab Gerlinger Rim Collection RC Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:19:00 - [225] Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha Originally by: CCP Prism X Dedicated probe ships needed. Well, not strictly. The fitting on the core scanner isn't that restrictive so you can fit it on any other ship. But I definitely do not recommend probing out a wormhole and then switching to a BS with no probes, go through it and get lost in space. So, you need someone with probes there but it doesn't have to be his only role. And this gets to the crux of the matter for me. Yes, probe launchers can be fit on any ship, but currently CovOps are the only class that is truly effective with probes. From all that I have read, you are destroying the utility of that ship. Plus all the skills exploration pilots have invested great time and effort honing, well they are utterly redundant or useless for wormhole exploration. If a 3 day old char can fit probe launchers (original blog stated "extremely low fitting requirements") and someone with the attention span of a 4 year old can operate them (the whole concept of mostly failure every scan cycle is tossed out), what is the point of getting involved in exploration? I loved the fact that exploration was about patience, planning, and using my human intelligence. Not many people did it because it was "boring" and had no instant gratification. Everyone will now be doing it, given how easy it will be. It sounds like once again, CCP has caved into the mandate that the game must be dumbed down to grab more of the market of 12 year old WoW players. Good business decision, awful game building decision. Please show me how I am wrong, and why I should continue building my exploration skills. Not sure if I read you right, but your probing skills will still be a huge help in finding these wormholes faster among other things...
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:19:00 - [226] Originally by: Delana Locke Edited by: Delana Locke on 26/01/2009 18:05:20 CCP Whisper, I've skimmed the questions and comments here, so forgive me if I've repeated these questions. It sounds like there will be a variable number of wormhole connections to a fixed number of systems. Are the connections one-way or two-way? If I enter a system and setup a POS and I get "stranded" because the wormhole I was using has closed, I assume over time some wormhole will spawnin system and I could use that to move to another system (whether that be wormhole space or "normal" space). So you're never really "stranded" you're just unable to use your original connection back to home space. Can we also assume that the NPCs in wormhole space will not be known to CONCORD and thus not have any sort of ISK reward? In other words, the only way to profit off of wormhole space is to go in and come back with loot to trade? Edit: Will trial accounts be able to traverse wormholes? It has been said that wormholes are two-way, mass limits permitting. SO you can go through, but you may not be able to make it back as there is not enough mass limit remaining on the wormhole. For your other question it has also been stated that in a wormhole system there will always be a wormhole leading out, you just need to find it. Out just means out of the system you are in though, that could be out to empire or out to another wormhole system.
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:21:00 - [227] Finally some real info on what we're getting in Apocrypha, but it just generates more questions for me: ò Will all the wormholes systems be boring single star systems or will we have some funky visuals and effects like Nebulas, Black Holes or Binary/Tri-Star systems etc? Regarding the NPCs - ò Will they automatically be hostile? ò Will they have structures (like stations) players could possibly use? ò Are there any market mechanics in Wormholes space? ò Will NPC standings and any associated mechanics be possible? Regarding Wormhole entry/exit points ò Will they ever spawn on grid near gates, stations or belts in system (are they effectively providing a way to escape from CONCORD/Faction Navies in high sec or do they have agression jump timers too? )? ò Will there be a radius of entry/exit from the spawn point and a "jump/enter" button? ò Will they be destructable via shooting etc? ò Are there systems "deep" in wormhole space that rarely OR never spawn wormholes to normal space but only to other wormhole space? ò Will manufacturing/science and industry be possible in wormhole space at a POS? For example assuming you could fuel a POS or two for a couple of months, is it feasable to live out there mining away producing ships, harvesting raw materials without ever needing to return to empire until the POS fuel runs low? Thanks in advance, Vyk.
Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:21:00 - [228] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Edit: Also, there is no Space Hydra. /tinfoil right now! Speaking of Bookmarks, the way the probing system is going to work, will we see the need for the perfect spot exploration/bookmark system going in way of a new improved probe move/triangulation system??
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:22:00 - [229] How about cyno jumping ships inbetween the wormhole space? Get your capital ship fleet into the systems. Then cyno them into 1 main hub area? Logistically basically nobody can fight you. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:24:00 - [230] Originally by: Rex Lashar Edited by: Rex Lashar on 26/01/2009 17:44:41 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Rex Lashar Still didn't answer - How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? And it was mentioned getting into these systems by any means other than wormhole is a sploit. But yet you might get lucky and send a mothership through. So is it a sploit to use clone vat bays of rorqual and motherships? PS: I'm pretty sure capitals shouldn't be allowed here, except maybe Orca. If you are stupid enough to send a MS on a one way trip through a wormhole where it might get stuck forever please let us know if it work to JC to it. I doubt you will have much of a success though. Why wouldn't a jump clone work if everyone set one up beforehand? When they activate it from empire, they just install another right after. And its not really a stupid move if the MS can travel around via wormholes. A mothership makes for a more practical logistics platform than a POS or Orca. Besides, 15bil is peanuts compared to the riches you could get. Fighters would help with new NPCs too presumably. For this reason I hope motherships and other such logistics ships aren't allowed to perma-reside on these systems. Or they will just become more space for the mega alliances. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:24:00 - [231] You know sometimes I almost feel as if the devs do actually read the features and ideas forum.... Linkage (not exactly a new idea but heh) This is going to be awesomely awesome of awesomeness with added awesome sprinkles added on top . C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:26:00 - [232] interesting read. however the whole implementation seems a bit too harsh and financially ineffective in the long run to me. Essentially a solo player would enter a wormwhole with two ships/characters: an exploration ship and a mission/pve ship. Maybe with an estimated value of 500m (ships+fitting). from what i read there is then a highly chance for that player to loose both ships and potentially his implants aswell, combined of the wormwhole exit-wormwhole not having enough allowed mass (left). the exit-wormwhole leading anywhere into 0.0 space the wormwhole collapsing while the player is in it. the "new ai" inside the wormwhole being superior. this leaves me wondering of how valueable thoose resources in the wormwholes could possibly be, to judge that combined chance of loosing two complete fittings and implants. especially tho the "getting stuck within" and "exit leading to completly random place" points should be revised in my oppion, if they are really that likeley/common as it sounds from your postings. i'd feel far more interested in trying wormwholes out, if once an exit-wormwhole closes, a new one spawns (requiring a new scan off course), and that theese exit wormwholes would actually lead to space of similiar security status as the wormwhole was entered from. Actual post content below: just for clarification, what is the likelyness of an exit-wormwhole leading to insecure/0.0 space from a wormwhole-system entered from high security space ?
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:27:00 - [233] Originally by: Cailais This is going to be awesomely awesome of awesomeness with added awesome sprinkles added on top . Pretty much yeah. If local is actually in delayed mode it may very well cause widespread "my pants glow with an awesome power" moments.
Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:28:00 - [234] The sheer amount of new systems is vast. But will there be a certain amount open at a time? I wonder if instanced space removed from eve space will be an enabler of carebearing and safety due to the fact the chances of them being found again is far removed. In eve space deadspaces protected their signature by what factor, 100 or whatever it is? This is thousands of new systems randomly assigned. I suppose the popularity of exploration will determine the safety. The more people go do them and fill the space up, the higher the risk for them all. Or is the difficulty of finding them the only chokepoint to how many are active?
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:30:00 - [235] early possible exploit notification :) if its possible to take an orca through a wormhole to this new space but a BS was restricted (mass/class etc) is/will there be a system in place to stop the orca taking a packaged BS (50km) inside its cargo bay, passing through the wormhole, then jettisoning the ships directly into space. IIRC ships jettisoned from cargo auto assemble in space. ergo completely bypassing ship size restriction :/
Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:30:00 - [236] More Bookmark Questions/Suggestions. Would it be possible to attach a bookmark to a exploration site that has been discovered, so that when the site expires and de-spawns, the bookmark would also de-spawn as well. It would provide a solution for those that go into a wormhole system and find a bunch of sites but never return (and by extension don't track their BMs) to clean up the DB Records. This would have the added benefit of being implement in normal space exploration.
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:30:00 - [237] very very cool. this feature is something im really happy about
mamolian Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:31:00 - [238] I like where this is going. Proceed.
Salliene Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:32:00 - [239] Like many others, I would like to know if the wormhole exploration is going to be built upon the exploration skills and ships we have already built up, or is everyone with a week old character going to be able to find wormholes?
Random Neg	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:33:00 - [240] Originally by: Mikal Drey early possible exploit notification :) if its possible to take an orca through a wormhole to this new space but a BS was restricted (mass/class etc) is/will there be a system in place to stop the orca taking a packaged BS (50km) inside its cargo bay, passing through the wormhole, then jettisoning the ships directly into space. IIRC ships jettisoned from cargo auto assemble in space. ergo completely bypassing ship size restriction :/ I think this is more of a question of Mass vs. Size. I am not 100% sure, but a BS has the same mass both packaged and assembled, if the mass restriction of a Wormhole takes into account the total mass of the transport and cargo (or whatever ship being used to move cargo) then it will not matter how you transport the ships as they will have the same effect on the wormhole. The better question is if you exceed the Wormholes mass quota when you attempt to go through it, does it close before or after you pass through the wormhole?

AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:35:00 - [241] Giving the hints of a "big accident" in this dev blog and the last two chronicles I think is about time I pay my first ever visit to the Eve Gate... before something happens to it --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:37:00 - [242] This is going to be AWESOME! -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Casiella Truza White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:38:00 - [243] Great, I am definitely planning on some boldly-going. Corp expeditions over a weekend, anyone? Get a prober with some codebreaker / analyzer mods (or their equivalents if this takes new skills), one or two escorts, and if there's enough mass maybe a hauler as well. I'm very very excited and marking my calendar now.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:39:00 - [244] Originally by: Ordais Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Well, its your choice tbh, if BMs are the only way to create a MAP of some sorts, then we will use them. Why create a map you say if the links change all the time? Simple no? To catalog the ressources in a system. If you dont want to create thousands of new BMs give us another way to chart the world. might be interesting to allow the "first person in" to drop a perma data maker with a name they pick. . . granted that means that we will see a lot of systems named things like Newbi wastelands, *sies pile and "how the ** do you program this nameing marker again"
Oothoon	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:40:00 - [245] Originally by: Salliene Like many others, I would like to know if the wormhole exploration is going to be built upon the exploration skills and ships we have already built up, or is everyone with a week old character going to be able to find wormholes? Indeed. It would be a serious slap in the face to those with specialized skill sets. I imagine that current exploration skills will make it "easier" to find WH. Skilled explorers can only hope that the experience is difficult/boring/scary enough to ward off week old characters.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:40:00 - [246] Edited by: Clansworth on 26/01/2009 18:41:15 Some thoughts: - First of all, the concept sounds great. simply great. - I am not much of a role-player, but I do see value in stuff being somewhat based on some sort of pseudo-science or whatever. Basically, when the game provides a restriction, the reasoning for said restriction should not be, 'because that wouldn't make this the way we envisioned it'. My first example of this is the Jump Clones. Basically, the reason you say they will not be allowed is because the only way in and out will be through the wormholes. That's all well and good, but is inconsistent with the fact that normal medical clones will still function. What strange phenomenon could there be that would prevent jump clones, but allow emergency medical clone jumps? - Where are these wormhole systems? I am assuming they are within the new eden galaxy, but simply were never explored and never had the stargates built to them, so after the cataclysm, they were basically 'lost'. If this is the case though, why wouldn't cyno's still be allowed, as they should be within a reasonable distance from SOME known space, being interleaved withing the existing known universe. - I love the idea of a roaming band of explorers, moving from here to there, throughout unexplored space, even spending months or longer away from empire. However, the lack of JC's or Cyno's will seriously hamper this. Here's how I see it breaking down. Your ragtag group of explorers is say, 5 friends. They find a wormhole into an unexplained area, and timidly step through. Once on the other side, they are enthralled with the new conflicts, new resources, and the potential of slipping deeper into the rabbit hole. Then, one of them has to log off. Now, the other four have a decision to make, do they go into the next wormhole, forever leaving their comrade in the dust? Or do they muttle about in the same system until the group can be reformed? With JC's, and especially with a mothership, they would be able to at least install a clone, and pop their ship into the capital, until they could come back on, and rejoin the quest. The Rorqual WOULD be a great ship for the exploration, however, the limitation of only being able to hold haulers and barges seriously hurts it's merits in this regard. - The same holds true for the potential of creating a 'hermit hole' in the wormhole space. It has been stated that a tower could be anchored there, and that is consistent and makes sense. As long as ice could be found there, it would only be limited by the NPC fuel items, and only perhaps need a monthly quest for the precious commodities. That being said, it is also just that, a hermit hole. A place where you could go, without ever really getting much in the way of visitors, and it being incredibly difficult for others, friend or foe, to ever meet up with you. It would seem the only viable method of working this would be to go in with a couple orcas or so, and set up your POS, mine local mins, and build to your hearts content in relative safety at your secluded POS. However, when your batch of BPC's are done, or your product reaches the extent of your cargo fleet, it would make more sense to just pack everything back up, including the tower, and make the daring trip back to market, knowing full well that it'd be easier to just do this again in a new system, then try to get back to the one that was your 'home' for the last month or so. - Perhaps a part of the solution here could be the allowance of Covert Cyno's to be placed in the wormhole systems. It would, however, require that the map show a 'you are here', so range could be calculated for the bridge. This would provide at least some permanence to the space, and give a way to truly make it your home, without it becoming another 0.0. After all, simply traveling through uncharted space, knowing full well that you will not be able to go there again, and not be able to show others the way, is SHIFTLESS WANDERING, not EXPLORING. System Influence
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:43:00 - [247] When you enter a wormhole does it calculate the mass of your ship by just looking at your ship, or your ship and its contents?
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:44:00 - [248] Originally by: Oothoon Indeed. It would be a serious slap in the face to those with specialized skill sets. I imagine that current exploration skills will make it "easier" to find WH. Skilled explorers can only hope that the experience is difficult/boring/scary enough to ward off week old characters. SLAP IN THE FACE ohnoes the newbies might have something interesting to do instead of training all the learning skills to V before they quit out of boredom.
Sinahstar	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:46:00 - [249] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss ò Are there systems "deep" in wormhole space that rarely OR never spawn wormholes to normal space but only to other wormhole space? This would be a fantastic way to reward the hardcore explorers who choose to jump through wormhole after wormhole long after other players would give up and pod themselves to get home. The systems at the end of these journeys would be relatively easy and have high profit potential and maybe a guaranteed one way wormhole back to empire. Dunno if it would work mechanically but I think there is potential here to reward hardcore explorers.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:47:00 - [250] Originally by: CCP Whisper Is there any chance of seeing 1-way wormholes? Yes. Mass and time will be randomly assigned when the wormhole spawns. If the mass allocation of the wormhole equals that of your ship it is going to definitely be a one-way journey. You need to clarify this, big time. Does that imply that wormholes are two-way connections? If so, doesn't that mean a person scanning one down can send in a shuttle to check things out? Doesn't that mean they can go through in a BS with a few friends and then hop back and forth with an alt until the wormhole is shut down? And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space... Doesn't that mean players will be able to reverse-explore a path back to empire? And tell their friends what system to go to with their pos-fuel laden indies and other ships? Doesn't that mean the best systems will be colonized almost overnight by alliances, by virtue of being able to gather in a specific system with any number of pilots and ships they want? The question of whether WH are 2-way or 1-way determines how long this frontier stays a frontier and how serious the challenges and risks actually are.

Salliene Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:47:00 - [251] Originally by: teji ohnoes the newbies might have something interesting to do instead of training all the learning skills to V before they quit out of boredom. Newbies I have no problem with. It's the 5 boxers starting an exploration alt in 10 minutes farming wormholes to flood the tech 3 markets that I am worried about. One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:49:00 - [252] Originally by: Sinahstar Originally by: Vyktor Abyss ò Are there systems "deep" in wormhole space that rarely OR never spawn wormholes to normal space but only to other wormhole space? This would be a fantastic way to reward the hardcore explorers who choose to jump through wormhole after wormhole long after other players would give up and pod themselves to get home. The systems at the end of these journeys would be relatively easy and have high profit potential and maybe a guaranteed one way wormhole back to empire. Dunno if it would work mechanically but I think there is potential here to reward hardcore explorers. We may never know as players since the wormholes are generated randomly and there is no way to know where they go before you go through them. Personally, I would not mind seeing some kind of probe you can launch through a wormhole and at least see what system is on the other side, system name if in empire or just "unknown" indicating its a wormhole system.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:51:00 - [253] "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in.
weebil	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:54:00 - [254] What I want to know is the wormhole universe persistant...eg once you are into the wormhole universe, are there the same connections to the same neighbouring wormhole sysems, or do the wormholes that connect systems inside the wormiverse come and go like the ones connecting to new eden will?
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:54:00 - [255] Originally by: CCP Whisper How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems. ♥
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:54:00 - [256] Will there be ice?
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:56:00 - [257] Originally by: weebil What I want to know is the wormhole universe persistant...eg once you are into the wormhole universe, are there the same connections to the same neighbouring wormhole sysems, or do the wormholes that connect systems inside the wormiverse come and go like the ones connecting to new eden will? I will try and find it but the devs have stated that the connections linking wormhole systems are not static, ie. they are random just like the ones connecting the rest of the universe to the wormhole systems.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:56:00 - [258] Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. Read more carefully: Originally by: CCP Whisper What happens when the wormhole closes behind you? You need to scan down a wormhole which leads back to known space. Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. You just need to find it. Known space. So if you can find a link to known space from any WH system, your corpmates only need to get to that system to join up with you IF AND ONLY IF the wormholes are 2-way. If the wormholes are 1-way, they'll only see an 'exit wormhole' What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard.
XxKatharsisxX	Posted - 2009.01.26 18:58:00 - [259] i really love the idea of this expansion especially i love the thought that u cant just simply cyno or clonejump people in. i can understand many of u seek to obtain this space building ur new empire there but i guess the intention is different. exploring does not mean to bring ur 100+ caps and massive fleets there and take over these systems immediately by just easyly cyno em in! exploring shall be dangerous and difficult! operating in small explorer groups advancing deeper into the unknown for treasurehunting .. thats what i call exploration id be dissapointed if it would turn into a new 0.0 ... maybe move in a cap ship that acts as a mobile base of operations would be ok, supplying the most basic needs of the pilots there would be no thrill at all if it would be that easy to supply these operations. please ccp dont let this great idea be destroyed by giving in to all the carebears that just want easy cash i think ur on the right way... keep it on!! KATH
Salliene Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:00:00 - [260] Originally by: Rex Lashar What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard. I dunno. If the wormhole from Dodixie collapses behind me and is replaced with one that will deposit me in the heart of some major 0.0 alliance like BoB or PL, then I think it's pretty cool.

Ordais	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:00:00 - [261] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. Read more carefully: Originally by: CCP Whisper What happens when the wormhole closes behind you? You need to scan down a wormhole which leads back to known space. Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. You just need to find it. Known space. So if you can find a link to known space from any WH system, your corpmates only need to get to that system to join up with you IF AND ONLY IF the wormholes are 2-way. If the wormholes are 1-way, they'll only see an 'exit wormhole' What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard. there is no "one-way wormwhole", the devs only stated that if the mass is so small to only allow you to pass once, then its kinda one-way no? ;)
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:00:00 - [262] Edited by: Serenity Star on 26/01/2009 19:04:55 Edited by: Serenity Star on 26/01/2009 19:01:56 Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. Read more carefully: Originally by: CCP Whisper What happens when the wormhole closes behind you? You need to scan down a wormhole which leads back to known space. Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. You just need to find it. Known space. So if you can find a link to known space from any WH system, your corpmates only need to get to that system to join up with you IF AND ONLY IF the wormholes are 2-way. If the wormholes are 1-way, they'll only see an 'exit wormhole' What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard. In an attempt to find the quote I did see that and do stand corrected. But, there is also no way to know if a wormhole links to a gate system or another wormhole system until you go through it. As I stated though I do stand corrected. The Dev's have never once said the wormholes are one way though. They have stated that you can go back and forth through them in an attempt to close them, I think... shall try and find that quote... Update: Ok, so found the quote... yea definitely not an answer though: Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Whisper What is there to stop people just jumping in/out of the wormhole with the express point to clock up the mass and close it. Some people will no doubt get their kicks from this alone. He didn't really answer it, just quoted it. To me that means he supports exactly that. I guess we shall see though.
Herio Mortis HYDRA MANUFACTURING Corp O X I D E	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:03:00 - [263] Originally by: Rex Lashar Known space. So if you can find a link to known space from any WH system, your corpmates only need to get to that system to join up with you IF AND ONLY IF the wormholes are 2-way. If the wormholes are 1-way, they'll only see an 'exit wormhole' What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard. However, once the limit of mass has passed through that wormhole it will close. Then as far as I can understand a new WH linking to known space will be opened, but that one most likely will not lead to the same place as the last one did. Randomness, etc.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:07:00 - [264] Originally by: Salliene Originally by: Rex Lashar What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard. I dunno. If the wormhole from Dodixie collapses behind me and is replaced with one that will deposit me in the heart of some major 0.0 alliance like BoB or PL, then I think it's pretty cool. So do I. I don't have a problem with all wormholes have a link back to known space (though I would prefer that weren't always true). I have a problem with being able to reverse explore a viable travel route to that system once you're inside if wormholes were implemented as two way links. It essentially: - removes the limit on ships and people you can get into one system - makes the random shifting of wormholes meaningless; and only a minor logistical issue for pos fuelers - removes the time limited restriction of pos deployments, as pos can be fueled normally now - removes the tradeoff of taking in few big ships versus many small ships - allows megacorps and alliances to all gather into one spot, run a pos network, claim the best places, etc.. - removes the risk of getting podded and not being able to come back The devs have so far said things which imply you can't find your way back, but also that trips are only one way if there isn't enough mass on the WH to send you back. Which is it?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:09:00 - [265] Originally by: Herio Mortis Originally by: Rex Lashar Known space. So if you can find a link to known space from any WH system, your corpmates only need to get to that system to join up with you IF AND ONLY IF the wormholes are 2-way. If the wormholes are 1-way, they'll only see an 'exit wormhole' What devs said is ambiguous, and has me on the edge of my seat right now. I want to know what the truth is, because if its 2-way and every WH system links to the gate network - then the entire concept fails hard. However, once the limit of mass has passed through that wormhole it will close. Then as far as I can understand a new WH linking to known space will be opened, but that one most likely will not lead to the same place as the last one did. Randomness, etc. That completely invalidates the mechanic. It doesn't matter if its not the same system anymore. It could be the ass end of 0.0. The point is you can find your way back. And if you can find your way back you can keep POS going indefinitely, keep regrouping to the same spot (as a corp or alliance) when your members get podded, and keep controlling the same place.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:11:00 - [266] Originally by: Serenity Star The Dev's have never once said the wormholes are one way though. They have stated that you can go back and forth through them in an attempt to close them, I think... shall try and find that quote... Update: Ok, so found the quote... yea definitely not an answer though: Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: clone 1 Originally by: CCP Whisper What is there to stop people just jumping in/out of the wormhole with the express point to clock up the mass and close it. Some people will no doubt get their kicks from this alone. He didn't really answer it, just quoted it. To me that means he supports exactly that. I guess we shall see though. Exactly.. they didn't explicitly state that wormholes are one way or two way. They implied they're 2-way because they implied the only restriction that determines if its a 1-way trip is the mass counter. When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean?
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:13:00 - [267] So do I. I don't have a problem with all wormholes have a link back to known space (though I would prefer that weren't always true). I have a problem with being able to reverse explore a viable travel route to that system once you're inside if wormholes were implemented as two way links. It essentially: - removes the limit on ships and people you can get into one system - makes the random shifting of wormholes meaningless; and only a minor logistical issue for pos fuelers - removes the time limited restriction of pos deployments, as pos can be fueled normally now - removes the tradeoff of taking in few big ships versus many small ships - allows megacorps and alliances to all gather into one spot, run a pos network, claim the best places, etc.. - removes the risk of getting podded and not being able to come back The devs have so far said things which imply you can't find your way back, but also that trips are only one way if there isn't enough mass on the WH to send you back. Which is it? As for your last point, why cant both be true? You try and find a way to empire, so you go through a wormhole, nope that leads to another wormhole system, so you keep going and going until you find a wormhole that links back to a gate system. When you try and get back to the wormhole system you were in, one of the wormholes has collapsed due to time/some one else using it. The part that concerns me is if each wormhole system does have a guaranteed link back to the gate network, because then why would you continue on that journey past the first jump. You go through a WH, it leads to another WH system so you go back through it into the system you came from and try and find another WH that does lead to empire.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:13:00 - [268] Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. Originally by: Oothoon Originally by: Salliene Like many others, I would like to know if the wormhole exploration is going to be built upon the exploration skills and ships we have already built up, or is everyone with a week old character going to be able to find wormholes? Indeed. It would be a serious slap in the face to those with specialized skill sets. I imagine that current exploration skills will make it "easier" to find WH. Skilled explorers can only hope that the experience is difficult/boring/scary enough to ward off week old characters. The new scanner system, new probes and probe launchers will all use the existing skills you have trained up. The aim is to make the level you have trained a skill up to still be relevant, so if you have invested time in getting a certain skill up, you will still get the benefit of this. Please take into account that balancing of the system has yet to be completed, so at this point we cannot commit to exactly how this will look.

X1994	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:14:00 - [269] Originally by: AleRiperKilt Giving the hints of a "big accident" in this dev blog and the last two chronicles I think is about time I pay my first ever visit to the Eve Gate... before something happens to it I've visited the Eve Gate a few weeks ago - it looks totally different than it looked before The Empyrean Age: Before After
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:16:00 - [270] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. So a WH system does not nessecarly have a link back to the gate network.... YES! Greyscale... your blog... we needz it!

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:18:00 - [271] Originally by: Serenity Star As for your last point, why cant both be true? You try and find a way to empire, so you go through a wormhole, nope that leads to another wormhole system, so you keep going and going until you find a wormhole that links back to a gate system. When you try and get back to the wormhole system you were in, one of the wormholes has collapsed due to time/some one else using it. The part that concerns me is if each wormhole system does have a guaranteed link back to the gate network, because then why would you continue on that journey past the first jump. You go through a WH, it leads to another WH system so you go back through it into the system you came from and try and find another WH that does lead to empire. You're not thinking in metagaming terms.. The solo player might see a wormhole leading to an unknown destination: it could either be a trip back to empire or yet another unexlpored system. Solo player jumps through. Another wormhole system. The choice to stay and scan for a WH to a normal system, or jump back (mass permitting) to find one there is completely irrelevant. The corp/alliance scans down a wormhole. They send an alt through, it leads to another WH system. No big deal. Another wormhole system is scanned down, this one leads to Agil. All 'lost in space' alts just pod themselves back to empire, travel to Agil and return to the first system where the corp has an established presence - along with POS fueler industrials, more battleships and anyone else looking to hook up that didn't.
Maria Kalista	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:18:00 - [272] 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. 4: Not bad job CCP. Not bad at all.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:20:00 - [273] Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own!
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:20:00 - [274] Originally by: ardik Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own! It's not instanced. C.
Ordais	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:21:00 - [275] because maybe the system you got in is not so good as the other one. and both have a way back to empire, maybe one has the better way (goes to a place near you and not deep 0.0). many reasons. and to add to that, it wont always be so easy to get things into the system. if you have to go to a hostile system i want to see you going there to bring in pos-fules, as you can be sure the hostiles will spot the WH too. i'm more worried about that if you dont like where the WH is going, you just "consume" it till you get a better exit point. thats why i would put in random time limits to the WH not consumption on mass.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:23:00 - [276] Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes. It is really possible to get stuck out there. If you lose your ship and have no-one flying backup who has a probe launcher and probes, or if you run out of probes, leave them behind or otherwise end up without a means to find your way home, the self-destruct button and your hopefully updated clone are your new best friends. Awesome. IMO, it just wouldn't be Eve without the possibility of getting stuck. You know, the whole risk/reward thing, and the harsh, unforgiving universe thing. I'm very much looking forward to this, as it's adding one of the things that Eve is missing: a sense of the unknown and real exploration. It'd be cool if it'd be possible to live out in uncharted space semi-permanently, like someone stated. There would have to be some way to manufacture things, though. Maybe bring back the concept of industrial ships as...industrial ships? You know, making them able to build things, but probably very inefficiently/slowly? It wouldn't be practical in explored space, but in unexplored space, it just might.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:24:00 - [277] Originally by: Serenity Star Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. So a WH system does not nessecarly have a link back to the gate network.... YES! Greyscale... your blog... we needz it! CCP WHISPER DID NOT CLARIFY THINGS. What he said does NOT prevent the reverse exploration metagaming technique I described earlier. Not being able to get back without further exploration is MEANINGLESS. Being able to find your way to a particular system by having friends tell you where in the 5000 normal systems of EVE it links with is not.
BenjaminBarker Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:27:00 - [278] So... Will there be ice?
Zilli Zilp	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:27:00 - [279] Problem with 2-way wormholes Let's say you are in a good system and that you have some ships available in the system also and that you gathered some goodies during time and that you want to move out now. Now assume that the original wormhole which you used to enter the system closed because mass/time limit. Now a new wormhole spawns (at least one). Assume that this new wormhole leads to a completely unfavourable region where you do not want to end up with all the goodies you got. Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. It shouldn't be difficult to calculate how many jumps and which ships you need to do that. Since there will be always at least one wormhole in each wormhole system, a new wormhole will spawn in 'your' system and you have a chance that it will end up in a more favourable region. If the new wormhole ends again in an unfavourable region, repeat until you got a 'good' wormhole. This way you can more or less easily get wormholes which will be all in your favour. 1-way wormholes won't allow this mechanism but they would make logistics for any pos-related things really difficult!
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:27:00 - [280] Damnit, I'm going to put this into the simplest terms possible. 1-way wormholes "Hey guys where are you?" "Wormhole system, we got 5 people through" "Can I join you?" "Sure, wander around the 1000 unknown systems in the hope that you stumble into us." 2-way wormholes "Hey guys where are you?" "Wormhole system, we got 5 people through" "Can I join you?" "Sure, go to Agil. The wormhole links there. Bring POS fuel and get everyone else to come. If they can't fit through we'll just wait for another WH to open up elsewhere."

Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:28:00 - [281] If you don't answer in this thread, can the next dev blog address what result you will see if you do a locator agent search on someone inside a wormhole?
Raneru Euphoria Released Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:28:00 - [282] Are the entry/exit wormholes 1 way or 2 way? For example if I am in wormhole space and I go through an exit into hostile known-space and the wormhole still allows the mass of my ship though, can I go back and wait for another wormhole to form somewhere else? BTW, this wormhole concept gives Eve so much room for expansion its mind boggling. Will these unknown systems eventually be the path to Jove space? Will we find new human bloodlines ? Will the new NPCs invade known-space?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:29:00 - [283] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. (sorry if it was asked) Okay so if you can put a mothership (or a rorqual), can they use the clone vatbay ?
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:30:00 - [284] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: ardik Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own! It's not instanced. C. When you add thousands of generic systems to an already barren and generic 0.0, and then think this will lead to anything but, in practice, instanced PVE, then you're just ****ing stupid. C.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:30:00 - [285] Originally by: Raneru Are the entry/exit wormholes 1 way or 2 way? For example if I am in wormhole space and I go through an exit into hostile known-space and the wormhole still allows the mass of my ship though, can I go back and wait for another wormhole to form somewhere else? That's what I'm trying to get answered here, as it determines whether or not people will be able to concentrate in the best systems and have territorial fights. Frankly, if they allow 2-way wormholes this whole thing is going to end up like the drone regions within 6 months.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:32:00 - [286] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Serenity Star As for your last point, why cant both be true? You try and find a way to empire, so you go through a wormhole, nope that leads to another wormhole system, so you keep going and going until you find a wormhole that links back to a gate system. When you try and get back to the wormhole system you were in, one of the wormholes has collapsed due to time/some one else using it. The part that concerns me is if each wormhole system does have a guaranteed link back to the gate network, because then why would you continue on that journey past the first jump. You go through a WH, it leads to another WH system so you go back through it into the system you came from and try and find another WH that does lead to empire. You're not thinking in metagaming terms.. The solo player might see a wormhole leading to an unknown destination: it could either be a trip back to empire or yet another unexlpored system. Solo player jumps through. Another wormhole system. The choice to stay and scan for a WH to a normal system, or jump back (mass permitting) to find one there is completely irrelevant. The corp/alliance scans down a wormhole. They send an alt through, it leads to another WH system. No big deal. Another wormhole system is scanned down, this one leads to Agil. All 'lost in space' alts just pod themselves back to empire, travel to Agil and return to the first system where the corp has an established presence - along with POS fueler industrials, more battleships and anyone else looking to hook up that didn't. This entire time the WH that links "their" WH system to the second WH system that links to Agil has a timer running and possibly people going through it reducing the mass limit. Although I can see where you are coming from I think we will have to wait for greyscales blog. Until then we will most likely not find out what the average timer will be. They have indicated that you may even be able to get a MS through, and a single Megathron BS is ~98million in mass vs a Helios at ~1.2 million for mass. Yea I can see where that may lead to problems with alliances setting up a POS and having it be practically permanent. Shall just wait for the next blog I guess. For an alliance it would just be a waiting game, they would have to wait until they find that proper route with WH's that have enough mass limit to move the supplies they need.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:33:00 - [287] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Serenity Star Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. So a WH system does not nessecarly have a link back to the gate network.... YES! Greyscale... your blog... we needz it! CCP WHISPER DID NOT CLARIFY THINGS. What he said does NOT prevent the reverse exploration metagaming technique I described earlier. Not being able to get back without further exploration is MEANINGLESS. Being able to find your way to a particular system by having friends tell you where in the 5000 normal systems of EVE it links with is not. But from the sounds of things these wormholes will be temporary - and their links to empire equally temporary. Lets say WH1 links to Agil - every one flies to Agil and jumps as many ships through as they can. That WH then closes (its mass is exhausted) - the 'Agil' link no longer exists - the next available wormhole link might go to EC, Amarr, PC9: there's no way of telling until you use it. The logistical effort to establish a corp presence in this unknown space isnt impossible, but its going to be rather difficult. C.
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:33:00 - [288] I can see it now: Captains log, Stardate 50893.5 (Star Trek lolz)... we discovered a blackhole in the unknown zone... dare we say we thought we'd try and enter it but we decided to go to the pub on a gallente station instead. Furthermore to our adventures across space the final frontier these are voyages of the starship.... who am i kiddin'! Anyway we decided to fly around a system when we descovered a Wormhole... My crew proceeded by letting out "ooohh" "ahhh" "look at the shiny!" before someone said "dont get too close or you'll be sucked off!" We got too close and in we went... now we are in a system and we have no data in the ships database! We moved onto the nearest planet only to descover a the remains of a colony of what seems to be humans with spikes potruding out of their heads! These beings were destroyed some time ago! Crewman: "Sir, we have kling-ons on the starboard bow!" Captain: "those are Fedo's you idiot, they clean help clean ships on the inside and out! Kinda like my mom! (See EVE Chronicles for FEDO) Crewman: "Sorry Sir!" Watch out for... EVE Adventures... coming soon!
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:34:00 - [289] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership ? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. (sorry if it was asked) Okay so if you can put a mothership (or a rorqual), can they use the clone vatbay ? Originally by: Prism X So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. Wink Will there be ice?
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:35:00 - [290] Originally by: CCP Whisper The new scanner system, new probes and probe launchers will all use the existing skills you have trained up. The aim is to make the level you have trained a skill up to still be relevant, so if you have invested time in getting a certain skill up, you will still get the benefit of this. Please take into account that balancing of the system has yet to be completed, so at this point we cannot commit to exactly how this will look. Allow me to translate: its **ing PROBING bro, it's going to suck balls no matter what we do! but hey, we've added some extra timers and to balance that ** OUT so you wont be able to FARM sites at least! so stick to high sec missions, it'll pay better long-term anyway and with the probe changes its not like anyone will be able to find you!

Mad Crafter Multiverse Corporation Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:35:00 - [291] If I got lost in wormhole space for a week it would be the best week ever! I'm just glad drones don't run outa ammo.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:35:00 - [292] Someone tell ardik that he is awful at posting and needs to stop it.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:36:00 - [293] imagine i said something about everything ccp has released the last 12 months has been pre-nerfed and forgotten to ensure no one actually uses it so dont get too excited i would have typed it in but im not sure how i'd get it in there, you know?
Zilli Zilp	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:36:00 - [294] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Okay so if you can put a mothership (or a rorqual), can they use the clone vatbay ? No other way to reach wormhole space than via wormholes. No cynojumping, no clonejumping. At least in the first version.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:37:00 - [295] Originally by: ardik Originally by: Cailais Originally by: ardik Originally by: Maria Kalista 1: this sounds EPIC. 2: this will be EPIC. 3: need to find a corp, this is definitely not something for a NPC corp hugger. yes good lord, how would you do instanced PVE all on your own! It's not instanced. C. When you add thousands of generic systems to an already barren and generic 0.0, and then think this will lead to anything but, in practice, instanced PVE, then you're just **ing stupid. C. An "instance" is a replicated game area for only one group of players. Anyone entering that area joins a seperate (universe) game area. i.e you jump into amarr, so do I, but we are in different 'instances' and cannot interact or even 'see' one another. Linkage Who's stupid now huh? C. Originally by:** Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:38:00 - [296] I think the question of viability for large alliances/corps to establish a lasting presence really just comes down to the average timer/mass limits. CCP has pretty clearly stated that WH are 2-way, mass permitting. Although they have not said "they are 2 way", they have said mass may prevent you from returning, which to me (yes me maybe not you) says they are 2 way.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:41:00 - [297] Originally by: Cailais An "instance" is a replicated game area for only one group of players. Anyone entering that area joins a seperate (universe) game area. i.e you jump into amarr, so do I, but we are in different 'instances' and cannot interact or even 'see' one another. Linkage Who's stupid now huh? C. Yeah, who's stupid now ok so it's still you, bummer C.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:42:00 - [298] Originally by: CCP Prism X So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. k Fetchez la vache !
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:43:00 - [299] I think the fears of POS domination of wormhole space is greatly exaggerated, certainly in the short term. My interpretation of how CCP has described access to and from the wormhole systems would not give a POS developer much comfort. From what I gather wormhole space is fixed but its access points are not. What may be a one wormhole jump from known space the first day, may require three jumps the next -- and not from the same starting point. A week later, the jumps might be only two but the ending point might be different. Limiting access to the wormhole via a discovered path might extend the connection life expectancy but even that has some variability and is by no means predicitable. Imagine Alliance A finds a system and sends in enough POS material to make is self-sustaining (assuming Ice is found). Two days later, the wormhole from Alliance A's entry point collapses. Now Alliance A has to find a way to get back there. So unless Alliance A is content to live out its existence in that wormhole system, the desirability to hold that space is limited. Of course you could farm the system and just wait until the wormhole network re-connects you with known space (or non-hostile space). That's a tall order even for dedicated carebears. Des Jardin
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:44:00 - [300] Originally by: Serenity Star This entire time the WH that links "their" WH system to the second WH system that links to Agil has a timer running and possibly people going through it reducing the mass limit. Although I can see where you are coming from I think we will have to wait for greyscales blog. Until then we will most likely not find out what the average timer will be. They have indicated that you may even be able to get a MS through, and a single Megathron BS is ~98million in mass vs a Helios at ~1.2 million for mass. Yea I can see where that may lead to problems with alliances setting up a POS and having it be practically permanent. Shall just wait for the next blog I guess. For an alliance it would just be a waiting game, they would have to wait until they find that proper route with WH's that have enough mass limit to move the supplies they need. First, I would rather not wait for the next blog to explain a critical fact that they've danced around for the last 5-6 dev posts here. Second, a mass and timer limit is meaningless, because the people who are already in that wormhole system will be able to find it and tell their corpmates on the other side where they need to go. Sure there might be competition, and random guys from the empire side might get in. It doesn't prevent a corp from slowly building up a huge presence over the course of days and weeks. Then what? Originally by: Cailais But from the sounds of things these wormholes will be temporary - and their links to empire equally temporary. Lets say WH1 links to Agil - every one flies to Agil and jumps as many ships through as they can. That WH then closes (its mass is exhausted) - the 'Agil' link no longer exists - the next available wormhole link might go to EC, Amarr, PC9: there's no way of telling until you use it. The logistical effort to establish a corp presence in this unknown space isnt impossible, but its going to be rather difficult. C. As I already said before, if 2-way wormholes are possible then that whole randomness thing just makes it a logistical annoyance. Say an alliance wants to get 100 people into 'WH System 1'. They only need to spend a few days or a week scanning to do it. Check this out: They find a link to Agil and 5 people get through. They find another from Jita, 10 get through. The next one is to another wormhole system, so they use an alt to jump back and forth and close it up. Because there is always a wormhole exit in the system, a new one respawns to replace that which was shut down intentionally. Maybe this one leads to another 'known space' system? Another 10 people get through. Is it a hassle? Yes. But that just means corps and alliances that spend the effort gathering to one spot would have a huge advantage over random visitors.

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:44:00 - [301] Originally by: ardik Originally by: Cailais An "instance" is a replicated game area for only one group of players. Anyone entering that area joins a seperate (universe) game area. i.e you jump into amarr, so do I, but we are in different 'instances' and cannot interact or even 'see' one another. Linkage Who's stupid now huh? C. Yeah, who's stupid now ok so it's still you, bummer C. Nice quoting skills. C.
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:48:00 - [302] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: ardik Originally by: Cailais An "instance" is a replicated game area for only one group of players. Anyone entering that area joins a seperate (universe) game area. i.e you jump into amarr, so do I, but we are in different 'instances' and cannot interact or even 'see' one another. Linkage Who's stupid now huh? C. Yeah, who's stupid now ok so it's still you, bummer C. Nice quoting skills. C. i...i dont even know what to say
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:49:00 - [303] are you trolling me?
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:51:00 - [304] Originally by: ardik are you trolling me? 'fraid so. - call it counter trolling if you want, bit like ECCM, but more amusing. C.
Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:51:00 - [305] Edited by: Kovid on 26/01/2009 19:55:06 Edited by: Kovid on 26/01/2009 19:54:39 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. Empire standings will matter. Return to the wrong empire space? Oh hello factional navy. If your security is below -2 you betta watch out as well.
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:55:00 - [306] Despite what would no doubt be a logistical nightmare, imagine how cool it would be to build an Outpost in a wormhole system. ... off I go to change my 5-year plan ... Des Jardin
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:58:00 - [307] The fact that the only way to enter a Wormhole system is Wormholes is going to make T3 hugely expensive. The logistical difficulties of 1) setting up a permanent base (of any kind) in a system you are likely to lose a known connection with at any time will only last as long as you can maintain it are cost prohibitive. 2) if someone manages to establish a permanent base and support it, anyone trying to shift them off their claim is going to be fighting an up hill battle. The traditional resources in the system are worthless, barring a new mineral that can only be obtained via mining in unexplored space. Unless of course we are going to see new T1/T2 industrial ships that are Science/Industry focused that allow for the roaming fleets. Does a wormhole back to known space tell you what known space it is? Or does someone with low empire standings have to run the gauntlet of high sec factional navy if they jump into the hostile empire's capital? And repeat the question about someone's carrier/dreadnought/mothership/Rorqual entering high sec via a wormhole, what stops them? In-Game Browser : http://ldis.caldari-made.net
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 19:58:00 - [308] Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so.
ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:01:00 - [309] will my insure still be in affect if my ship gets popped???
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:04:00 - [310] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so. What list? What are you talking about?

Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:06:00 - [311] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so. You has a very valid point. This brings up a bigger concern. If you start to set up a base of operations in a system, it is apparently guaranteed to have an exit WH. If that WH does not lead where you want it to, you just forcefully close it, and then hope that the next one does. As has been pointed out, this could be a very grueling task, and it could be made even more difficult depending on WH timers.
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:07:00 - [312] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so. What list? What are you talking about? Thats the point, the list was nothing. There is nothing stopping a player from going in and out of a WH and forcing it to collapse.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:08:00 - [313] Questions I have... We know POS' can be anchored, but what about sov-required elements, like Outposts? What is travel like between wormhole systems? Are these 4,000 or so systems only connected to one another via random wormholes, or is there some level of permanent interconnection? It sounds as if the wormholes have some progressive paths to them, almost like 'rooms' in missions/plexes (the parts about going 'deeper' into wormhole space), is this the case? Could you clarify the high-sec>wormhole / null-sec>wormhole distinction? It ounds as if wormhole space will have a similar sec rating system like the 0.0 system (which actually goes to -1.0).
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:09:00 - [314] Originally by: FireFoxx80 We know POS' can be anchored, but what about sov-required elements, like Outposts? They won't exist.
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:10:00 - [315] What if i go thru the wormhole and get into wormhole space.... can i logoff and expect to find my ship alive when i log on again??? How will this work?
Serenity Star	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:12:00 - [316] Edited by: Serenity Star on 26/01/2009 20:13:53 Originally by: FireFoxx80 Questions I have... We know POS' can be anchored, but what about sov-required elements, like Outposts? What is travel like between wormhole systems? Are these 4,000 or so systems only connected to one another via random wormholes, or is there some level of permanent interconnection? It sounds as if the wormholes have some progressive paths to them, almost like 'rooms' in missions/plexes (the parts about going 'deeper' into wormhole space), is this the case? Could you clarify the high-sec>wormhole / null-sec>wormhole distinction? It ounds as if wormhole space will have a similar sec rating system like the 0.0 system (which actually goes to -1.0). "We know POS' can be anchored, but what about sov-required elements, like Outposts?" They have stated there will be NO sov, so the assumption can be made that things like Outposts are out of the question. "What is travel like between wormhole systems? Are these 4,000 or so systems only connected to one another via random wormholes, or is there some level of permanent interconnection?" No clear answer on this yet. It seems like they are just connected by the random WH. They have stated though that there is only about 1000 new systems, maybe 2k. "Could you clarify the high-sec>wormhole / null-sec>wormhole distinction? It ounds as if wormhole space will have a similar sec rating system like the 0.0 system (which actually goes to -1.0)." I think somewhere it was said that lower sec systems with a WH will more likely lead to a more profitable WH system, but do not think there is a clear answer on that yet.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:14:00 - [317] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so. What list? What are you talking about? It was a smart assed way of saying that nothing would stop someone from doing so.
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:16:00 - [318] you guys still dont get it.... CCP are probably referring to the fact that NEW EDEN is a galaxy and the wormholes could lead you to a new galaxy! CCP give us a light at the end of the tunnel! Please
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:18:00 - [319] Originally by: Bielbo What if i go thru the wormhole and get into wormhole space.... can i logoff and expect to find my ship alive when i log on again??? How will this work? The same as logging off in any other system most likely. After timer, your ship warps to limbo. When you log back on, it warps back to approx where you were. Nothing new changing here.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:23:00 - [320] Originally by: CCP Prism X Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have*' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. or you could... you know... name the systems :P think of all the bookmarks you would save. In fact how about... USE THE NEW BACKGROUNDS YOUR WORKING ON as a way for players to know if they have been in that system before. Then players won't need to make bookmarks, they will fly into a wormhole, look into the sky and say "oh look, I'm in the right wing of orion. TADA, no one would make bookmarks just to see what systems they have been in. However I know there is a chance the new background system won't be in the expansion but it is something to think about, save you some database headaches.

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:26:00 - [321] Originally by: dojocan81 i've a question and hopefully, it will be anwsered: lets say player a finds a wormhole in 0.0, player b one in 0.1 low sec is it possible, that 2 or more people from different corners of new eden, can catch up the same wormhole entrance ? or is it totally random ? or do wormhole system only have "one" entrance ? cheers I really hope some wormhole systems will have multiple ways in, so that people from different parts of space could meet up and have some good PvP. in fact if every system has a way out.. then maybe this is allready the case? as an exit means there would be another way in?
Morphisat Rakeriku	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:27:00 - [322] How rare will these things be ? Or will it requir hours and hours of mindnumbing scanning to find one ?
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:29:00 - [323] Originally by: MotherMoon I really hope some wormhole systems will have multiple ways in, so that people from different parts of space could meet up and have some good PvP. YESSSSSSSSSS lets risk our ****ty pve ships to do some PVP in systems that can potentially be a hundred jumps away from the nearest station. or you know, just hit that scan button again and farm one of the other five thousand identical wormhole systems.
Raneru Euphoria Released Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:30:00 - [324] I heard the wormholes will lead to Serenity and the "new NPCs" will all speak Chinese c/d?
Williamat Centaurus Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:30:00 - [325] Originally by: X1994 Originally by: AleRiperKilt Giving the hints of a "big accident" in this dev blog and the last two chronicles I think is about time I pay my first ever visit to the Eve Gate... before something happens to it I've visited the Eve Gate a few weeks ago - it looks totally different than it looked before The Empyrean Age: Before After Looks like it's about to Supernova!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:31:00 - [326] Originally by: ardik Originally by: MotherMoon I really hope some wormhole systems will have multiple ways in, so that people from different parts of space could meet up and have some good PvP. YESSSSSSSSSS lets risk our ****ty pve ships to do some PVP in systems that can potentially be a hundred jumps away from the nearest station. or you know, just hit that scan button again and farm one of the other five thousand identical wormhole systems. actully if the thread in general is to be believed, the rats in these wormholes are going to have the ability to warp out of battle soooo... bring your pvp gear.
Ackatosh	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:31:00 - [327] Did anyone ever figure out what that BRIGHT STAR is that can be seen in a few 0.0 system? Is that possibly a wormhole or something?
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:31:00 - [328] Originally by: Morphisat How rare will these things be ? Or will it requir hours and hours of mindnumbing scanning to find one ? Well, about 5200 accessable systems in new eden, with links to about 1000 wormhole systems, so even if each wormhole ssytem only had 1 access point (which it has been implied they can have more) you'd have to scan 5 systems on average to find a wormhole.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:32:00 - [329] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so. What list? What are you talking about? It was a smart assed way of saying that nothing would stop someone from doing so. That's a ******ed response to give, since the player didn't ask for a list. Chances are he wrote a reply, hit post and the forum ate it like it always does.
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:32:00 - [330] Originally by: Williamat Centaurus Originally by: X1994 Originally by: AleRiperKilt Giving the hints of a "big accident" in this dev blog and the last two chronicles I think is about time I pay my first ever visit to the Eve Gate... before something happens to it I've visited the Eve Gate a few weeks ago - it looks totally different than it looked before The Empyrean Age: Before After Looks like it's about to Supernova! lol... thats accurate and scary!

Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:32:00 - [331] Originally by: Ackatosh Did anyone ever figure out what that BRIGHT STAR is that can be seen in a few 0.0 system? Is that possibly a wormhole or something? Based on when it showed up, I was guessing it was them being silly and that it was a Christmas star or something. System Influence
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:32:00 - [332] About tech III As ALL wormholes link to new systems with the SAME technology... is it safe to assume that the wormholes in NEW EDEN link to a distant and slightly more advanced location somewhere else in the universe.. question... will CCP at a later date introduce permanent gates to this other "galaxy" or "region" and when can we occupy Jove space?
ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:33:00 - [333] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Ackatosh Did anyone ever figure out what that BRIGHT STAR is that can be seen in a few 0.0 system? Is that possibly a wormhole or something? Based on when it showed up, I was guessing it was them being silly and that it was a Christmas star or something. In the middle of JUNE?
Ackatosh	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:34:00 - [334] Originally by: ZombieFan 69er Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Ackatosh Did anyone ever figure out what that BRIGHT STAR is that can be seen in a few 0.0 system? Is that possibly a wormhole or something? Based on when it showed up, I was guessing it was them being silly and that it was a Christmas star or something. In the middle of JUNE? I'm with him on that aswell!
london Gallente KDS Navy	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:35:00 - [335] This is pure win. I bet cruisers with probe launchers will be popular for this; Not too small, not too big... and still cheap to loose. So this seeds the materials for Tech 3, I wonder how long it will take before the first Tech 3 ship rolls out. Also, the new seamless 3d solar system map with probe control sounds very interesting.
Kristel Elke Amarr Addikt Industries Codemonkey Construction Project	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:35:00 - [336] please tell me we will have science vessels..
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:36:00 - [337] you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:36:00 - [338] Another question... We already have impulse drive, afterburner, microwarp drive, jump drive... how about a WORMHOLE drive??? It hasnt been spoken of much in SCF-FI movies and id like to think i can get a 'Tech 3 Wormhole Drive' off a dead
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:37:00 - [339] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar When asked by a player if people can go back and forth to close them, the dev quoted it and said nothing. So like.. wtf does that mean? The player asked what was stopping someone from going back and forth to use up the mass capacity of a wormhole. The Dev response was a list stating what would stop someone from doing so. What list? What are you talking about? A list with nothing in it can still be a list -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Morphisat Rakeriku	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:37:00 - [340] Originally by: Clansworth Well, about 5200 accessable systems in new eden, with links to about 1000 wormhole systems, so even if each wormhole ssytem only had 1 access point (which it has been implied they can have more) you'd have to scan 5 systems on average to find a wormhole. That doesnt sound too bad, we'll have to see how hard it will be in practise !

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:38:00 - [341] Originally by: Morphisat Originally by: Clansworth Well, about 5200 accessable systems in new eden, with links to about 1000 wormhole systems, so even if each wormhole ssytem only had 1 access point (which it has been implied they can have more) you'd have to scan 5 systems on average to find a wormhole. That doesnt sound too bad, we'll have to see how hard it will be in practise ! well they allready siad it will be 2500 new systems so... 1 wormhole every other system?
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:39:00 - [342] Originally by: Ackatosh Did anyone ever figure out what that BRIGHT STAR is that can be seen in a few 0.0 system? Is that possibly a wormhole or something? If you are refering to this, then yes.
Kim Telkin Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:43:00 - [343] I'm curious what options will be available if you log off in wormhole space. Is there anywhere to log off that is safe (equivalent to a station/outpost)? Will I just have to warp to a safe spot, disconnect and hope no one probes me before my ship is removed (I can pretend to be a titan pilot in that case ). Just curious, especially since you can get somewhat trapped in wormhole space for a while. Also, what about buying/selling/markets in wormhole space. If for instance, I bring a badger's worth of probes with me can I gouge... er sell them to the poor guy who ran out? Short of dropping them out in a pod and hoping they'll give me money for it?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:44:00 - [344] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Ackatosh Did anyone ever figure out what that BRIGHT STAR is that can be seen in a few 0.0 system? Is that possibly a wormhole or something? If you are refering to this, then yes. Quote: Graphics û General * In an effort to prepare for future graphics projects we are collecting information about graphics cards. This will allow us to better target the hardware of EVE's player base. forgot about that
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:44:00 - [345] Originally by: Kim Telkin I'm curious what options will be available if you log off in wormhole space. Is there anywhere to log off that is safe (equivalent to a station/outpost)? Will I just have to warp to a safe spot, disconnect and hope no one probes me before my ship is removed (I can pretend to be a titan pilot in that case ). Just curious, especially since you can get somewhat trapped in wormhole space for a while. Also, what about buying/selling/markets in wormhole space. If for instance, I bring a badger's worth of probes with me can I gouge... er sell them to the poor guy who ran out? Short of dropping them out in a pod and hoping they'll give me money for it? no but you could bring a ship full of probes and offer to help him get out for a fee
Blastil	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:46:00 - [346] Edited by: Blastil on 26/01/2009 20:48:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4 This was my reaction to the wormhole blog Mildly NSFW
SirSpectre Gallente Harbingers Of Destruction	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:48:00 - [347] Damn this is awesome! I cant wait for this!!!!!!! AHHH!!!! Question though, will it be possible for one of these wormhole systems to have a hidden station? Even NPCs need a place to hide too!
ardik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:50:00 - [348] Originally by: MotherMoon you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance if you've ever tried ratting/exploring in 0.0, it might as well be
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:55:00 - [349] Originally by: ardik Originally by: MotherMoon you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance if you've ever tried ratting/exploring in 0.0, it might as well be true I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out your logic, and thus why arguing with you is a pointless battle.
Ackatosh	Posted - 2009.01.26 20:58:00 - [350] Edited by: Ackatosh on 26/01/2009 20:58:54 Ok my next question is f***** up: I get a few of my guys in haulers and capital ships and all go into the wormhole... Only to find open space... ok thats cool... I think its only fair we can drop an outpost in that area with nothing stopping us except pirates and other player/npc's attacking us or the outpost! Question being: can we have Outposts pls :) Please please please give us another 2 or 3 blogs in the next few days... its nigh on killing people... I should know i almost managed to get my friend to self destruct a dreadnought by telling him wormholes dont fit dreads

Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:06:00 - [351] Originally by: SirSpectre Damn this is awesome! I cant wait for this!!!!!!! AHHH!!!! Question though, will it be possible for one of these wormhole systems to have a hidden station? Even NPCs need a place to hide too! I think that's what pretty much every exploration site is already anyways.. and just like those already in game, I'm guessing they will be just as inhospitable to unexpected guests.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:15:00 - [352] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Morphisat Originally by: Clansworth Well, about 5200 accessable systems in new eden, with links to about 1000 wormhole systems, so even if each wormhole ssytem only had 1 access point (which it has been implied they can have more) you'd have to scan 5 systems on average to find a wormhole. That doesnt sound too bad, we'll have to see how hard it will be in practise ! well they allready siad it will be 2500 new systems so... 1 wormhole every other system? Thats a possibility - but then there might be wormhole systems that can only be initally reached through another wormhole system. I dont expect CCP to give us too much information on this - most likely it will be something that explorers learn through trial and error. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:17:00 - [353] So, does this mean that we will finally be seeing space whales? ____________
ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:19:00 - [354] Originally by: Tareen Kashaar So, does this mean that we will finally be seeing space whales? /signed
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:20:00 - [355] Originally by: Ackatosh I get a few of my guys in haulers and capital ships and all go into the wormhole... Only to find open space... ok thats cool... I think its only fair we can drop an outpost in that area with nothing stopping us except pirates and other player/npc's attacking us or the outpost! Question being: can we have Outposts pls :) Starbases are already in there.. Outposts would, besides requiring sovereignty to determine ownership, be incredibly difficult to build logistically (even harder than the current difficult task it is in 0.0). That being said, I can see a need for some new POS facilities to allow living in the newly charted space. Some sort of personal storage space, a-la POS Array: Personal Storage Array. Also, if they fix their apparent blunder with cloning not being allowed, a POS Clone Vat would be interesting.. (actually, be interesting for a LOT of areas of New Eden as well). This just goes along with consitancy though.. you can build a Clone Vat bay and the Mothership/Rorqual/Titan to fit it on at a POS, but can't build a Clone Vat to function AT THAT POS? seems silly to me... System Influence

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:21:00 - [356] Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions. Now clearly some of you have put your thinking caps on and figured out a way to game the system. Fair enough. I've linked the team to some of the posts about this and we're going to put our thinking caps on to figure out some way to make the minor "logistical annoyance" a bit less minor. The other question I have seen a lot is whether wormhole systems will be connected via stargates. Wormhole systems will be connected to each other only via other wormholes. So once you are in a wormhole system you may find more wormholes that lead to other wormhole systems. These links are just as random and temporary as the ones from known space to wormhole space. The couple of thousand wormhole systems will have a constantly shifting network of connections. And yes, a wormhole system might have more than one connection to known space. Incidentally, because it is getting really annoying typing 'wormhole space' and 'known space' over and over again, here's the internal nomenclature: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge

Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:22:00 - [357] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Morphisat Originally by: Clansworth Well, about 5200 accessable systems in new eden, with links to about 1000 wormhole systems, so even if each wormhole ssytem only had 1 access point (which it has been implied they can have more) you'd have to scan 5 systems on average to find a wormhole. That doesnt sound too bad, we'll have to see how hard it will be in practise ! well they allready siad it will be 2500 new systems so... 1 wormhole every other system? Thats a possibility - but then there might be wormhole systems that can only be initally reached through another wormhole system. I dont expect CCP to give us too much information on this - most likely it will be something that explorers learn through trial and error. C. Well, it seems the randomness of the system would easily make it so that there are routinely systems with no link directly to normal space, just other uncharted systems.. however, it'd be not to long before the randomness switches things around, and that unconnected-to-normal system is now linked to Jita... I love random... System Influence
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:26:00 - [358] Originally by: Serenity Star Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Serenity Star "And if all wormhole systems have a wormhole leading back to normal space..." All wormholes systems have an exit wormhole, that does not mean an exit wormhole leading back to empire, just out of the system you are in. This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. So a WH system does not nessecarly have a link back to the gate network.... YES! Greyscale... your blog... we needz it! We are already suffering from blog withdrawal? wow! These blogs are the real thing! To be honest Im a bit confused about things. as it is it sounds like anyone entering a wormhole from empire is taking a chance that it pops and drops them into the guts of 0.0. the odds are that if thats the case your not going to get many people from empire to bother with it, so I suspect that most high sec empire wormholes will drop you into empire.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:27:00 - [359] Originally by: CCP Whisper Incidentally, because it is getting really annoying typing 'wormhole space' and 'known space' over and over again, here's the internal nomenclature: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge Dear god thank yo man.. I was just about to write a post proposing a name for the W-Space (1st non-dev use!)

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:27:00 - [360] Originally by: Cailais [...]I dont expect CCP to give us too much information on this - most likely it will be something that explorers learn through trial and error. Slight quoting out of context for truth. While we're keen to give you a lot of information about this feature, some things you will just have to discover for yourself. We'll do our best to inform you about how the mechanics work and such, but as for content...well that's what exploration is all about, isn't it? Also please note that this feature will be subject to balancing and revision as time goes by. We can add new exploration sites just like we do in K-space, we can modify the distribution of wormholes if we feel they're too common or too rare. As T3 will be based on the resources you find in wormhole space, there is obviously a need for traffic balancing. But that is one of the things which only time will tell. But thanks for the comments and feedback left here so far. As said I've linked to some of the comments and asked the team to mull them over. Please do keep the comments coming.


Ambassador Delenn The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:30:00 - [361] This looks to be an amazing new adventure. Thanks Whisper and everyone else at CCP.
Williamat Centaurus Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:31:00 - [362] Originally by: CCP Whisper Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions... ...here's the internal nomenclature: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing?
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:33:00 - [363] I'm not especially fond of having alts close off wormholes. An associate of mine thought up the idea of using some sort of fuel to move through wormholes. August Guns
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:34:00 - [364] So... Will there be ice?
Henglar	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:35:00 - [365] Edited by: Henglar on 26/01/2009 21:34:56 An important question is: Will the new NPCs finally include giant space whales? We want giant space whales!!!
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:35:00 - [366] I would just ask that the Clone and/or cover cyno option be looked at by the team. There is a large part of the eve plyerbase that are interested in staking out some space of their own. However, they are not large enough to move into 0.0, as any hint at trying to take a SMALL part of 0.0 will be viewed upon as a threat to the existing alliances. I have no problem with that dynamic, and I believe it is correct and realistic. My complaint is that this 'new space' seems perfectly appropriate for a small corporate level existance, and the ability to colonize it would be great. Perhaps letting only the covert cynos in is a way of limiting this power-per-character to a specific level, as black ops are hardly a power-block on their own, and it seems wormholes large enough to cap ships would be somewhat few and far between. I just fear that when a corp DOES try to actually LIVE in said space, it would be to easy to be greatly distanced from your corpmates, and that is just not fun gameplay. System Influence
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:37:00 - [367] Originally by: CCP Whisper Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions. Now clearly some of you have put your thinking caps on and figured out a way to game the system. Fair enough. I've linked the team to some of the posts about this and we're going to put our thinking caps on to figure out some way to make the minor "logistical annoyance" a bit less minor. The other question I have seen a lot is whether wormhole systems will be connected via stargates. Wormhole systems will be connected to each other only via other wormholes. So once you are in a wormhole system you may find more wormholes that lead to other wormhole systems. These links are just as random and temporary as the ones from known space to wormhole space. The couple of thousand wormhole systems will have a constantly shifting network of connections. And yes, a wormhole system might have more than one connection to known space. Incidentally, because it is getting really annoying typing 'wormhole space' and 'known space' over and over again, here's the internal nomenclature: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge Sigh.. Thank you for finally answering clearly. Basically, you guys didn't think as players would when you designed this - this was one of the first thoughts my friend and I had. You can do what you will with logistics, but the fact remains is that these systems will be claimed. If it takes a few more weeks, it will still happen. This frontier vision of yours will die about 6 months into the game, as powerful groups of players will concentrate in the best systems using the same blobbing and pos tools we have in regular 0.0. The funny part is, there is no justifiable reason for allowing 2-way travel in wormholes. If, as you say ships as big as motherships can go through you're talking about a dozen bs or a hundred hac/recon pilots. So even without 2-way travel, a decently sized corp / alliance fleet can roll through together. That in my opinion is another mistake. If 2-way wormhole travel goes in, it will be the grandest mistake since lvl 4 agents in high sec. There is no future proofing in this design whatsoever, and even if its slightly more dynamic than regular 0.0 it will still play in much the same way. Only instead of groups colonizing a general area it will be one system at a time. It was said by CSM that you're attempting to make 0.0 more 'personal' - well, keep it restricted to a small handful of ships being able to travel together.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:39:00 - [368] Originally by: Henglar We want giant space whales!!! Space Greenpeace contacted us and threatened Space Boycotts and Space Demonstrations if we put Space Whales into space. Originally by: Williamat Centaurus If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing? The design's being worked on in response to the feedback in this thread and there is a good chance that they won't end up being the same thing. Well, they'll look the same but they'll work in a different manner. Can't say much more than that right now because...well there isn't much more than that.

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:43:00 - [369] Good, I'm glad its still a work in progress. Remember that nothing is perfect on the first revision. Going on my 7th year in EVE now, and I have to say.. if done RIGHT, this would be one of the biggest evolutionary leaps ever. Right up there with player owned structures and capitals. I haven't been this excited in a long, loong time.
Tabare Vazquez Uruguay Forever	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:44:00 - [370] Edited by: Tabare Vazquez on 26/01/2009 21:44:39 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Williamat Centaurus If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing? The design's being worked on in response to the feedback in this thread and there is a good chance that they won't end up being the same thing. Well, they'll look the same but they'll work in a different manner. Can't say much more than that right now because...well there isn't much more than that. Good to know that design has not been finalized six weeks before Apocrypha hits Tranquility.

Alz Shado Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:46:00 - [371] As long as these 'features' require mods that take up combat slots and probes that cost lots of isk, the primary ingredient used to make them will be Failsauce. á ----------------------------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:46:00 - [372] Will the current exploration sites in K-Space still be available, or will all exploration now move to W-Space ? Will the revelant skills for finding exploration sites in K-Space stay relevant, or will finding theese "old" K-Space sites now work based on the new skills for W-Space exploration ?
Von Druid Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:47:00 - [373] Originally by: Tabare Vazquez Edited by: Tabare Vazquez on 26/01/2009 21:44:39 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Williamat Centaurus If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing? The design's being worked on in response to the feedback in this thread and there is a good chance that they won't end up being the same thing. Well, they'll look the same but they'll work in a different manner. Can't say much more than that right now because...well there isn't much more than that. Good to know that design has not been finalized six weeks before Apocrypha hits Tranquility. Certainly worrying that basic things such as how to get to the systems that will drop the stuff required for tech 3 have not been fully thought out yet....
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:47:00 - [374] What Im interested in is whether there will be new T2 ships specialised for going through these things (for example tier 2 BC's getting a tech 2 version?) I can see this opening whole new purposes for corps though, roaving through worm hold space, escorting Deep space Transports loaded with valuable stuff through unknown space to known space, then through known space to Empire :) And Visa versa, carrying haulers full of fuel through space and selling at inflated prices to people out there :P And I hope belts come with all sorts of mins in them, would make life pretty interesting to come across poses manufacturing ships and mods in wormhole space and selling to passing explorers, could make an entirely different sort of market out there. Only concern with POS's being if someone sets up a full death star pos over say a dysprosium moon, how will you be able to remove it, apart from say a month long blockade until it runs out of fuel :P Though of course im waiting for the shooting, followed by scramming of pods "10 mil for your pod.....thank you, 30mil for a wormhole out of here....thank you".
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:49:00 - [375] Originally by: CCP Whisper Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions. Now clearly some of you have put your thinking caps on and figured out a way to game the system. Fair enough. I've linked the team to some of the posts about this and we're going to put our thinking caps on to figure out some way to make the minor "logistical annoyance" a bit less minor. The other question I have seen a lot is whether wormhole systems will be connected via stargates. Wormhole systems will be connected to each other only via other wormholes. So once you are in a wormhole system you may find more wormholes that lead to other wormhole systems. These links are just as random and temporary as the ones from known space to wormhole space. The couple of thousand wormhole systems will have a constantly shifting network of connections. And yes, a wormhole system might have more than one connection to known space. Incidentally, because it is getting really annoying typing 'wormhole space' and 'known space' over and over again, here's the internal nomenclature: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge I hope im correct on this and propose you have researched the FULL ideas/research on the word and terms of an item such as a Wormhole. Therefore id like to point out that its only apparently possible for matter to travel ONE WAY through a Wormhole and hope therefore that the internal nomenclature is correct: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge As you listed above the K-space can travel to the W-space but nothing should be able to pass back through to the K-Space again using the same Wormhole! I had to ask a bunch of geeks about this! They said its like a sink full of water... you fill it up and pull the plug... you simply cant put the same liquid back through using the exact principle therefore the idea CCP are implimenting is incorrect. The wormholw should be exactly the same shape and size on both size or they physically/simply couldnt connect!
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:49:00 - [376] Originally by: Williamat Centaurus Originally by: CCP Whisper Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions... ...here's the internal nomenclature: K-System/K-Space : Known space from Empire to 0.0 W-System/W-Space : The unknown space that is formed by the wormhole systems K-W : A K-space to W-space bridge W-W : A W-space to W-space bridge W-K : A W-space to K-space bridge If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing? I would assume the designation refers to their origin. And, in terms of the origin we might surmise their rarity / stability (mass capacity)? e.g (where the first designator is the probe result) K-W : unstable, relatively common. W-K: stable, relatively rare. W-W: stable, relatively common. In this formation getting into WH space is fairly easy - getting out, less so. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Kim Telkin Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:50:00 - [377] What might be an interesting mechanic for the WH is if they were all 1 way, EXECPT if you flew through it one direction, then that ship could also fly out through it the other direction. So I fly into W space and can return through the same bridge 'backwards' into K space. This means roaming groups can come in and have a way out if they get there in time. But people already in the system can only scan down WH that point OUT of the system into other systems. So they can't call the rest of the alliance to come join them. Of course a suitable explanation/excuse would be needed as to why things work this way. But CCP I'm sure will figure out a good way to use the mechanic. I can't wait though :)
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:50:00 - [378] Originally by: Clansworth I would just ask that the Clone and/or cover cyno option be looked at by the team. What it is in the other side of a wormhole could be in the other side of the universe, another dimension or a backdoor to your 0.0 enemy (I suspect Delve is going to have lots of backdoors into Goon strongholds but that is a troll for another thread) My point is even with max out cyno skills you would be out of range from trans-galactic or trans-dimensional travel, unless you can build a TARDIS with T3 stuff Also trying to hold wormhole space would be very risky, once the wormhole closes it could respawn anywhere. So your corp setups a POS and happily farms that system when the access WH respawns next to a 0.0 NPC station full of pirates --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:52:00 - [379] Originally by: Des Jardin Despite what would no doubt be a logistical nightmare, imagine how cool it would be to build an Outpost in a wormhole system. And you thought (scam) courier contracts to Rancer were a *****... MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching
Williamat Centaurus Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:54:00 - [380] Originally by: CCP Whisper[quote=Williamat Centaurus If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing? The design's being worked on in response to the feedback in this thread and there is a good chance that they won't end up being the same thing. Well, they'll look the same but they'll work in a different manner. Can't say much more than that right now because...well there isn't much more than that. Awesome, thanks for the reply. btw, I am EXTREMELY excited about this new content and I look forward it!!

Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:54:00 - [381] Originally by: Rex Lashar 2-way wormholes "Hey guys where are you?" "Wormhole system, we got 5 people through" "Can I join you?" "Sure, go to Agil. The wormhole links there. Bring POS fuel and get everyone else to come. If they can't fit through we'll just wait for another WH to open up elsewhere." The outgoing wormhole has closed.. "Hey guys, I think I've scanned down the new exit wormhole, going to try to go through." "Cool, report back." "... ... ... Crap guys, this is the middle of BOB space..." "Aw man, this is taking forever...the last one ended up in Goonswarm territory and you know how that went when they found the way in..." ----------------------- "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies."
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:56:00 - [382] Originally by: Tabare Vazquez Good to know that design has not been finalized six weeks before Apocrypha hits Tranquility. The more worrying issue is that the rest of the features, that propably have exploitable holes too, get introduced in the coming weeks. There will be even less time to fix any issues that pop up in those. Any issues that do get discovered, will propably still be there when the expansion goes live. A lot of interesting opportunities will be there for the taking, before CCP manage to patch all the holes. Still, a great feature even with the little ifs. Can't wait to see what other things you have planned for the expansion.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:58:00 - [383] Originally by: CCP Whisper This. You're going to have to wait for Greyscale's blog for the details, but "There is always a way out" does not always mean you're going to end up back where you started from. Your trek home might require getting through a couple of wormhole systems and then running the pipe from 0.0 down to Empire. You might pop out in Gallente space after having left from Vuorassi. All will be revealed in the near future though. While I love the wormhole idea, I'm not sure that I'll love fighting through some sort of radical new wormhole PVE experience, almost running out of ammo and then on my return finding myself in, for example, Delve in some cyno-jammed system full of NBSI locals. Maybe that will be fun after all. Who knows? Also, apologies if this has been mentioned (although I couldn't see it in the Dev posts): If you end up stuck (probe ship dead/no probes/whatever) is the only way back to charted space by pod self-destruct and new clone?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:59:00 - [384] Originally by: Faraelle Brightman Originally by: Rex Lashar 2-way wormholes "Hey guys where are you?" "Wormhole system, we got 5 people through" "Can I join you?" "Sure, go to Agil. The wormhole links there. Bring POS fuel and get everyone else to come. If they can't fit through we'll just wait for another WH to open up elsewhere." The outgoing wormhole has closed.. "Hey guys, I think I've scanned down the new exit wormhole, going to try to go through." "Cool, report back." "... ... ... Crap guys, this is the middle of BOB space..." "Aw man, this is taking forever...the last one ended up in Goonswarm territory and you know how that went when they found the way in..." Being in the middle of alliance space is only relevant for one reason, and one reason only: Cyno Jammers. You'd have to cyno into a nearby unjammed system and manually fly all the stored ships across a few jumps instead of directly in-system. And yes, you might lose some people or whatever but surviving in 0.0 isn't exactly rocket science for the people who are likely to dominate this new space.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:00:00 - [385] Originally by: Rex Lashar Basically, you guys didn't think as players would when you designed this - this was one of the first thoughts my friend and I had. Actually we did think like players. But when you're designing as large and complex a feature as this, sometimes you overlook things. That's why we have devblogs and test servers. And now that you and others have pointed this out, we will revisit this and attempt to make the scenario you described more difficult. Originally by: Rex Lashar You can do what you will with logistics, but the fact remains is that these systems will be claimed. If it takes a few more weeks, it will still happen. This frontier vision of yours will die about 6 months into the game, as powerful groups of players will concentrate in the best systems using the same blobbing and pos tools we have in regular 0.0. I'll respond to this a bit further down the post. Originally by: Rex Lashar The funny part is, there is no justifiable reason for allowing 2-way travel in wormholes. I have to disagree with you here. Two-way travel is important. It means that scouting is possible. If the system were only one-way, players would have absolutely no way of estimating whether the potential rewards on the other side are worth the risk. Or whether they are even capable of surviving what is on the other side. Originally by: Rex Lashar If, as you say ships as big as motherships can go through you're talking about a dozen bs or a hundred hac/recon pilots. So even without 2-way travel, a decently sized corp / alliance fleet can roll through together. That in my opinion is another mistake. The operative word is if. While I think the idea of having a wormhole that can let a mothership through is definitely cool, I do not think that these sorts of wormholes should be as common as sand on the beach. If you find one of these and your alliance wants to ram a mothership through it, they need to consider it very carefully because the chances of getting that mothership out are low. I would also claim that having a super capital in a W-system is not the "I Win" button you think it is. You have to get ammunition, ships and modules out to it through a system of constantly shifing connections. Even with the peek-a-boo-and-close tactic you mentioned, that's a lot of work to do in the hopes of getting a better connection to spawn. Sure, a big alliance can do it, but they're going to have to work at it. All the while the mothership is sitting in the system, filling up with resources that may or may not get to somewhere they can be used. So now you have what, fifty pilots? Sixty? A hundred? All working around the clock to keep that ship safe from someone who might stumble across it, keep the resources flowing out and the supplies flowing in. I take my hat off to anyone who is willing to coordinate that amount of work through a tangle of shifting connections, gambling the potential rewards versus the amount of manhours going in. Originally by: Rex Lashar There is no future proofing in this design whatsoever, and even if its slightly more dynamic than regular 0.0 it will still play in much the same way. [...] It was said by CSM that you're attempting to make 0.0 more 'personal' - well, keep it restricted to a small handful of ships being able to travel together. Again, I respect your criticism but I think you're shooting this horse before it's even run its first race. I strongly believe that the challenge and rewards we will be putting into W-space will motivate many small groups to take the plunge and venture into the unknown. I hope that the fact that the NPC's will behave more like PvP opponents will help get lots of people used to fitting and fighting for PvP and increase the confidence of pilots to the point where they take their chances in low-sec and 0.0. Above all, I hope that people have fun out there. If your definition of fun is spending hours keeping a mothership alive in the middle of the unknown, go for

Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:01:00 - [386] Originally by: AleRiperKilt Originally by: Clansworth I would just ask that the Clone and/or cover cyno option be looked at by the team. What it is in the other side of a wormhole could be in the other side of the universe, another dimension or a backdoor to your 0.0 enemy (I suspect Delve is going to have lots of backdoors into Goon strongholds but that is a troll for another thread) My point is even with max out cyno skills you would be out of range from trans-galactic or trans-dimensional travel, unless you can build a TARDIS with T3 stuff Also trying to hold wormhole space would be very risky, once the wormhole closes it could respawn anywhere. So your corp setups a POS and happily farms that system when the access WH respawns next to a 0.0 NPC station full of pirates There hasn't actually been an answer to this. The Devs have not stated that the W-Space is a distant galaxy, or just previously lost/unexplored systems in New Eden, intermixed among the already Stargate Networked K-Space. They have hinted that tech 3 might be 'older tech' from the pre-cataclysmic cultures (Sleepers, et al), in which case, they would have been residing right here in New Eden. If this IS the case, then they certainly WOULD be within range of Jump Travel, if it was to be allowed (as I said, perhaps only the more advanced Covert Cyno would work, limiting ship classes allowed through the 'easy mode' of reentry.) Also, it seems odd then, that Medical Clones would still work from 'across the universe', and if that is, in reality, where these wormholes go to, I would propose that you still take a skill-point loss when being podded from that far away, as there is no way to 'transmit' your updated skill info just prior to death over that distance. Are you saying that all communications channels except Local should also be locked off when you are across the universe?
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:01:00 - [387] Whatever you do dont fly a f**** Titan in there... i doubt the wormhole will be big enough! For all you know youre all so proud of a new fleet of ships ready for an invasion of goonfleet space and next minute a BoB titan comes thru a wormhole! OMG RUUUUNNNN B** RRUUUUNNNNN!!!!
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:03:00 - [388] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Henglar We want giant space whales!!! The design's being worked on in response to the feedback in this thread and there is a good chance that they won't end up being the same thing. Well, they'll look the same but they'll work in a different manner. Can't say much more than that right now because...well there isn't much more than that. um its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep!
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:03:00 - [389] You seem to have confirmed that supercaps can enter (unless I totally misunderstood), so does this mean that one can deploy and use WARP DISRUPTION BUBBLES in there? I fear that it would be a big no-no for many people to enter.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:03:00 - [390] Originally by: Heroldyn Will the current exploration sites in K-Space still be available, or will all exploration now move to W-Space ? Will the revelant skills for finding exploration sites in K-Space stay relevant, or will finding theese "old" K-Space sites now work based on the new skills for W-Space exploration ? The current exploration and encounter content in K-space will remain and function exactly as before. Except of course you will have a new scanner and probe system with which to find the sites. In fact I believe our content team is adding more exploration sites to K-space in Apocrypha, but there will be more information on that coming later.


Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:03:00 - [391] With regard to the 'two way' K-W / W-K issue it's probably worth considering the frequency that W-systems connect to K-Systems. If its not very often (W > K travel) then any occupying corp/alliance runs the risk of getting stuck. They could conceivably move around within a W-system loop (e.g W <> W <> W) but that's always going to be risky from a logistics point of view. This would also achieve the 'wandering explorer' effect as they searched for the 'rarer' W > K wormhole - or just hope that someone enters their system (K > W) by chance. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:08:00 - [392] Edited by: DaemonBarber on 26/01/2009 22:09:03 Do the WH's only change at downtime, or anytime throughout the day? Can we force a link change by triggering a collapse, or will that just shut it down for today and change it out at the next dt? Will there be ice in W-space? Oh - and you guys rock.
ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:11:00 - [393] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: AleRiperKilt Originally by: Clansworth I would just ask that the Clone and/or cover cyno option be looked at by the team. What it is in the other side of a wormhole could be in the other side of the universe, another dimension or a backdoor to your 0.0 enemy (I suspect Delve is going to have lots of backdoors into Goon strongholds but that is a troll for another thread) My point is even with max out cyno skills you would be out of range from trans-galactic or trans-dimensional travel, unless you can build a TARDIS with T3 stuff Also trying to hold wormhole space would be very risky, once the wormhole closes it could respawn anywhere. So your corp setups a POS and happily farms that system when the access WH respawns next to a 0.0 NPC station full of pirates There hasn't actually been an answer to this. The Devs have not stated that the W-Space is a distant galaxy, or just previously lost/unexplored systems in New Eden, intermixed among the already Stargate Networked K-Space. They have hinted that tech 3 might be 'older tech' from the pre-cataclysmic cultures (Sleepers, et al), in which case, they would have been residing right here in New Eden. If this IS the case, then they certainly WOULD be within range of Jump Travel, if it was to be allowed (as I said, perhaps only the more advanced Covert Cyno would work, limiting ship classes allowed through the 'easy mode' of reentry.) Also, it seems odd then, that Medical Clones would still work from 'across the universe', and if that is, in reality, where these wormholes go to, I would propose that you still take a skill-point loss when being podded from that far away, as there is no way to 'transmit' your updated skill info just prior to death over that distance. Are you saying that all communications channels except Local should also be locked off when you are across the universe? I STRONGLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING POSTED HERE... I'D LIKE A CCP RESPONSE ON THIS :)

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:11:00 - [394] Originally by: Tabare Vazquez Good to know that design has not been finalized six weeks before Apocrypha hits Tranquility. Originally by: Raymon James its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep! For Apocrypha we have been split into teams, each with its own programmers, designers and QA staff (we're working according to Agile and Scrum project management methodology). In the last six weeks my team have built a new scanning system, added 2500 solar systems to New Eden, worked out the mechanics to get pilots there and back and designed the implementation of the game content in the W-systems. The artists attached to the team have created some amazing models and content which is unlike anything you have seen before. You may think six weeks is not a lot of time, but my experience from the last month and a half is that my team is able to complete their tasks and then some. They have responded within a day to problems requiring reworking of game designs. They even managed to put in some improvements that were not strictly speaking part of their remit, simply because they realised it was possible and decided to go for it without ever losing sight of the main objective. I am extremely proud of what we have achieved and I have full confidence in their abilities to not only finish this feature but adapt it based on feedback. We have six weeks to release. This feature will be awesome.

Alz Shado Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:13:00 - [395] Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? á ----------------------------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:13:00 - [396] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Raymon James its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep! For Apocrypha we have been split into teams, each with its own programmers, designers and QA staff. In the last six weeks my team have built a new scanning system, added 2500 solar systems to New Eden, worked out the mechanics to get pilots there and back and designed the implementation of the game content in the W-systems. The artists attached to the team have created some amazing models and content which is unlike anything you have seen before. You may think six weeks is not a lot of time, but my experience from the last month and a half is that my team is able to complete their tasks and then some. I am extremely proud of what we have achieved and I have full confidence in their abilities to not only finish this feature but adapt it based on feedback. Pictures or it never happend! C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:16:00 - [397] Edited by: Roy Batty68 on 26/01/2009 22:16:30 Originally by: CCP Whisper Ok, I thought I had answered the question but apparently not clearly enough: Wormholes are always 2-way. You can go through them in both directions. Now clearly some of you have put your thinking caps on and figured out a way to game the system. Fair enough. I've linked the team to some of the posts about this and we're going to put our thinking caps on to figure out some way to make the minor "logistical annoyance" a bit less minor. All this claiming w-space stuff is dependent on the ability to log alts in the systems. So make logging off in w-space an unknown as well. Logging back into the system you might find that a wormhole has "randomly" found you and shipped you off to some other space while you were gone. For the 23/7 campers, make some sort of accumulating tachyon-dark-energy-ala-STNG-spacey-technobabble reason you might get hoovered up a wormhole while just sitting there in system. Edit: Of course that should accrue over time. /shrug
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:16:00 - [398] Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Explore - find out. C.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:18:00 - [399] Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? No, high sec wormholes will not always be linked just to high sec space and other high sec wormholes. You can quite possibly discover a route from low sec or 0.0 space to high sec space through a series of wormholes. Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that.

Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:18:00 - [400] in my moments of shock and awe at myself realising the time i have spent looking and reading this post for say nearly 4 hours! I havent been online playing EVE because im waiting... waiting for someone to post something about what everything looks like in W-Space... or describe it to me in some way! I could have easily made 50 mill or more but im sooo pulled in by this expansion! So please someone anyone... a picture... video or even a description! Also Jove teasers too :)

weebil	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:18:00 - [401] who is to say the wormhole volume counter will be the same as the one in k space? It may be 1bn m3 in or 500m out before it collapses. That would make it tricky to try close it I don't think it would be worth getting too much logistics in w-space, what if you put up a few large pos in one system and then the k - w gate changed to your enemies system
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:21:00 - [402] Edited by: Demeterus on 26/01/2009 22:21:32 Originally by: CCP Whisper Actually we did think like players. But when you're designing as large and complex a feature as this, sometimes you overlook things. That's why we have devblogs and test servers. And now that you and others have pointed this out, we will revisit this and attempt to make the scenario you described more difficult. This seems to be boiling down into a discussion about whether W-Space should only be playgrounds for pvp'ers, and if that is the case then I'm sorry but W-space will be utterly barren of players. What is the purpose of W-space? A "battleground" system? I fully agree with that W-space should be difficult to get to, and difficult to maintain a presence in, but if logistics becomes impossible then you ARE going to see the largest alliances move in because they are the only ones with enough spatial coverage and personel coverage to be able to use it. High sec corps will not, you will find, move into W-space. Small alliances will not. Since there will be no targets (ie cheap carebear kills) the pirates and the pvp'ers will stick to the known haunts. You may stumble on a lost explorer with something wild in his eyes, and a beard reaching his toes sometimes, but unless there is at least the chance of decent logistics for corps and/or small alliences W-space will remain very, very underutilized. At least, that is my impression of where this discussion is heading, and that is my impression of where you as devs are heading after the points have been raised in this thread. tl;dr; Make W-space hard to get to - but not impossible Make W-space difficult to keep a logistics link to - but not impossible except for the largest entities Petition the authorities to move March 10th till tomorrow - because the awesomeness of all this is off the scale
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:22:00 - [403] Once again, how are wormholes visible? Are they like faction warfare complex beacons? In the sense that once someone has probed it out, it is visible on the overview to all players in the system. OR does the wormhole have to probed out EVERYTIME/previously bookmarked if someone wants to go through it.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:24:00 - [404] Originally by: DaemonBarber Do the WH's only change at downtime, or anytime throughout the day? A wormhole's state will be determined by two factors: Time and Mass. When it spawns, it will be open for a ramdomly determined amount of time and allow a ramdomly determined amout of mass through. When either variable reaches zero, the wormhole collapses. Wormholes will also have a similar despawn timer as exploration sites, so if they are never found they will collapse and respawn elsewhere. Originally by: DaemonBarber Can we force a link change by triggering a collapse, or will that just shut it down for today and change it out at the next dt? Don't know the answer to this one off-hand. I'll have to poke Greyscale about this. Originally by: DaemonBarber Will there be ice in W-space? There may be ice in W-space. Whether it is of the type you need to run the type of tower you've dragged into the system is another matter. As is whether the belt will remain in the system all the time. Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. Originally by: DaemonBarber Oh - and you guys rock. Thanks. You players aren't so bad yourself.

ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:24:00 - [405] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? No, high sec wormholes will not always be linked just to high sec space and other high sec wormholes. You can quite possibly discover a route from low sec or 0.0 space to high sec space through a series of wormholes. Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. You could add a game mechanic that states if a capital ship such as a carrier enters a high sec system that it a declaration of war and henceforth it be destroyed by the faction controlling the space! Example: Archon goes to W-Space and then goes through a wormhole leading to K-space such as the 'Amarr Home System' which if i remember correctly is a 1.0 system then the carrier would be shot at by every law enforcement and Amarr faction ship available until it is taken out! Also adding webs and scrams to concord that can stop a carrier moving would help! It could also be declared an instant war target so that any player from any faction or race may attack it without prejudice and no status hit. In fact you could get a bonus for just helping to destroy it!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:27:00 - [406] Originally by: CCP Whisper Or whether the NPC's will let you mine the ice in peace. Now, I know this is a bit beyond the scope of wormholes. But does this mean that with this new AI, the NPCs, or at least the wormhole NPCs are not necessarily going to automatically be hostile on contact all the time? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:28:00 - [407] Originally by: Demeterus Make W-space hard to get to - but not impossible Make W-space difficult to keep a logistics link to - but not impossible except for the largest entities Petition the authorities to move March 10th till tomorrow - because the awesomeness of all this is off the scale This is pretty much what we're aiming for (although getting the 10th of March moved would be a bureaucratic nightmare), albeit your definition of "hard, but not impossible" will likely differ from mine. I would also replace "largest entities" with "most determined entities". We've seen several small corporations successfully manage to mount large-scale endeavours in the past. Who knows, some of the high sec corporations and small alliances may surprise all of us.

Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:28:00 - [408] Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:29:00 - [409] oh man, npcs that warp around and follow you throughout the system perhaps?? - MY LATEST VIDEO - FRIGANK 4

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:29:00 - [410] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea.


ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:30:00 - [411] I think once this patch has been made ill be hunting the wormholes down and then going to W-space in search of treasures! I dont care if i go there and come back in goonfleet space... I just wanna say i had the stuff in my cargohold and maybe if i did come back in a high sec system id sell the stuff to the highest bidder or if i was in a 0.0 system id dock up if i could and get a fleet of guys to escort the stuff out if it was worth a lot!
Letrange Minmatar Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:33:00 - [412] Scanner changes... booooooner!!!! One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going? The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot?
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:33:00 - [413] You say that wormholes will disapear when they reach either 0mass or 0timer, how likely is the first? If ships dont have enough mass you have said they wont be able to jump, and I imagine its going to be very rare for there to be exactly enough mass to shut one down by jumping through it, it will just reach a very small number, effectivly making the wormhole unusable but still spawned until the timer drops. And will a despawn of a wormhole in a system trigger a new wormhole to spawn in the same system (especially relevent in wormhole systems) or will you have to keep searching and waiting for a new wormhole to appear?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:34:00 - [414] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Rex Lashar The funny part is, there is no justifiable reason for allowing 2-way travel in wormholes. I have to disagree with you here. Two-way travel is important. It means that scouting is possible. If the system were only one-way, players would have absolutely no way of estimating whether the potential rewards on the other side are worth the risk. Or whether they are even capable of surviving what is on the other side. Thank you for the postings. Scouting is not an issue, if you're coming from empire side you send an alt through in a shuttle or pod (keeping mass use low). See if its dangerous.. see if you like it.. Alt can come back to you by podding himself even if its a 1-way wormhole. Doesn't have to be an alt, just one person willing to pod themselves if need be. If you're scouting from a WH system to WH system, same thing applies. Only you can't pod the scout to rejoin the main group, should they choose not to enter that new system. The only other purpose of 2-way travel is that a small group will be able to go make multiple trips back and forth to stockpile more assets in the wormhole system. Whether it be anchoring cans full of ammo, or fuel for a small pos. This way, they 'use up' all their available mass before the WH collapses. But removing 2-way doesn't change much because you can still metagame to maximize your mass allowance on the first try. You can do this by having one person fly a fat ship like Orca. RE: Motherships and all that. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to get an Orca or a few battleships through at most. But that isn't the main concern. 2-way wormholes allow reverse exploration no matter what you do; which by proxy allows groups of players to concentrate and regroup. In other words, 2-way travel = colonization of Wormhole space. It's that simple, as I don't see how its necessary for any other purpose. Players WILL regroup to these systems because its a reliable method - even if its challenging, time consuming and annoying. In a one way system, every ship, ammo, fuel and pod consumed reduces your effectiveness. A podded corpmember has no way of linking up again until the next expedition. And that's all Wormhole space would be, no, SHOULD be - a place to launch expeditions. Since every resource you collect and transport back to empire would be one less pilot and ship on your team. And even with POS assembly arrays, you could only replace ships and ammo for a limited time before you were out of fuel. If you allow people to colonize it, its will only be a matter of time before your frontier is practically destroyed and an ever-increasing number of systems are populated by hundreds of people all belonging to the same organization. Yes, I know things aren't final. But I don't think its premature to get extremely worried. If this function isn't changed in the next 6 weeks the chances of it getting changed later are abysmal. I pray that you take this design decision with number one urgency. Right now, on behalf of my corp and our collective experience/desires the feedback can be broken down into 3 parts: 1. One way wormhole travel only. 2. Mass limit capped above Orcas (250mil kg) but below carriers (900mil kg). 3. Test bed for local changes (no list, perhaps member count).
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:34:00 - [415] Originally by: CCP Whisper I would also replace "largest entities" with "most determined entities". This! Make the logistics diffucult but practical for a determined small to mid sized group, but undesirable for a larger group. If the larger group wants to break itself up into smaller units to maintain systems, good for them. If balanced against larger entities, it could turn into a tool against the blob.
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:34:00 - [416] I'm very happy and impressed by this! I expected you guys to make it deadspace-like with just a bit of fluff here and there but this is gamechanging! Seriously +50% more systems?? Wow. I've thought about a roaming fleet with no real base for years and not it's possible! I'm a bit worried about how this will effect bigger alliances but it's worth the risk.
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:35:00 - [417] Can we get a way to stabilize WH's? Burn fuel to add to the Mass / Timer limit, and keep the JG open longer, or open it up to a larger ship? Exponential increases in requirements, the longer or larger it is maintained, to ensure it does close? Doesn't everyone love an Isk sink?
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:35:00 - [418] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Rex Lashar Basically, you guys didn't think as players would when you designed this - this was one of the first thoughts my friend and I had. Actually we did think like players. But when you're designing as large and complex a feature as this, sometimes you overlook things. ... ...I strongly believe that the challenge and rewards we will be putting into W-space will motivate many small groups to take the plunge and venture into the unknown. I hope that the fact that the NPC's will behave more like PvP opponents will help get lots of people used to fitting and fighting for PvP and increase the confidence of pilots to the point where they take their chances in low-sec and 0.0. Above all, I hope that people have fun out there. If your definition of fun is spending hours keeping a mothership alive in the middle of the unknown, go for here is one of the problems with the system Production NEEDS on some level a reliable supply to work not the unstable mess your promising with this expansion. (and thats what it boils down to, right now Im seeing a system where the only thing that is garanteed is that your bascialy screwed if your in Wspace and the hole closes, you end up with the need to fly through space that will probably be hostile to some degree to fly home. As it is what I DO see is a mechanism for greifing people. just hop back and forth with a cheep no fit ship to crush the gate. BOOM the gate goes byby and the odds are the people you stranded their now have a 20+ jump back to home, and with most of Kspace being <.5 then the odds are fairly good when that happens that its going to be hostile to some degree or another. theirfor your going to need to somehow fix the risk Vs reward. wich means that T3 had better be a LOT better than T2 ships. Otherwise? Bascialy all Im seeing is a mechanism for randomly dumping people in hostile space in order to encourage some kind of PvP.
GeekWarrior Gallente Isotope Incorporated Dead Mans Hand	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:37:00 - [419] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra ... Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. I was just thinking about this myself...
Kayn Otar Samurai Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:38:00 - [420] Originally by: Demeterus This seems to be boiling down into a discussion about whether W-Space should only be playgrounds for pvp'ers, and if that is the case then I'm sorry but W-space will be utterly barren of players. What is the purpose of W-space? A "battleground" system? I thought the purpose was obvious: an exciting new place to play. As far as being barren, I expect it will be barren of players unwilling to accept the risk of going into unknown and dangerous territory. I recently moved into low-sec, after more than a year in high-sec; and I'm confident that any carebear who is willing to take a change will soon find these exploration sites more interesting and fun than anything else they have ever done. To those who aren't willing to risk anything: why are you still playing EvE?

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:38:00 - [421] Originally by: Demeterus Edited by: Demeterus on 26/01/2009 22:21:32 This seems to be boiling down into a discussion about whether W-Space should only be playgrounds for pvp'ers, and if that is the case then I'm sorry but W-space will be utterly barren of players. What is the purpose of W-space? A "battleground" system? I fully agree with that W-space should be difficult to get to, and difficult to maintain a presence in, but if logistics becomes impossible then you ARE going to see the largest alliances move in because they are the only ones with enough spatial coverage and personel coverage to be able to use it. High sec corps will not, you will find, move into W-space. Small alliances will not. Since there will be no targets (ie cheap carebear kills) the pirates and the pvp'ers will stick to the known haunts. You may stumble on a lost explorer with something wild in his eyes, and a beard reaching his toes sometimes, but unless there is at least the chance of decent logistics for corps and/or small alliences W-space will remain very, very underutilized. At least, that is my impression of where this discussion is heading, and that is my impression of where you as devs are heading after the points have been raised in this thread. Large Alliances will be common in W-space for the simple factor that they have lots of players. Those 0.0 players are already 'pro-risk' by default, W-Space will probably appeal to their psychology (rather than a risk averse Empire alliance). However - 0.0 Alliances also have to secure their .0 borders, this will be hard to do if the fleet is ambling around W-Space with no simple and quick method of return. So, the big alliances will have to weigh the advantages of accessing W-Space with fewer 'boots on the ground' in 0.0 K-Space. I think its just as likely that we will see the emergence of new W-Corps / Alliances as the prominence of established .0 Alliance blocks. C.
stadshage Caldari Monkey Universe Corporation Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:40:00 - [422] nice blog cant wait to see how this wil work out make scanning a almost must have skil in eve also make logistic's a far more important part of the game with blockade running in systems if ya find ya self in a system with a bunch of reds who like to give you there love wel at least i hope it wil be like that
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:42:00 - [423] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Demeterus Make W-space hard to get to - but not impossible Make W-space difficult to keep a logistics link to - but not impossible except for the largest entities Petition the authorities to move March 10th till tomorrow - because the awesomeness of all this is off the scale This is pretty much what we're aiming for (although getting the 10th of March moved would be a bureaucratic nightmare), albeit your definition of "hard, but not impossible" will likely differ from mine. I would also replace "largest entities" with "most determined entities". We've seen several small corporations successfully manage to mount large-scale endeavours in the past. Who knows, some of the high sec corporations and small alliances may surprise all of us. I just got the impression that you devs were backtracking a bit to make logistics even more difficult than the description in the devblog, because here's what I can see what would be needed for a more "permanent" presence in a W-space system for my main's corp: We would need to setup a large pos. Barring the existence of suitable ice - there would be a need to ferry in fuel and parts for the pos The pos would be needed for replacing ships lost to these new NPC's, as well as modules, as well as ships lost to the players that want to "take over" the system The pos would be needed to build resource gathering ships The pos would be needed as a secure base to have one island of peace in a potentially very hostile place, just to rep and take a break There would need to be logistics to get resources back to K-space In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled.
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:44:00 - [424] Edited by: DaemonBarber on 26/01/2009 22:44:44 Originally by: Demeterus I just got the impression that you devs were backtracking a bit to make logistics even more difficult than the description in the devblog, because here's what I can see what would be needed for a more "permanent" presence in a W-space system for my main's corp: We would need to setup a large pos. Barring the existence of suitable ice - there would be a need to ferry in fuel and parts for the pos The pos would be needed for replacing ships lost to these new NPC's, as well as modules, as well as ships lost to the players that want to "take over" the system The pos would be needed to build resource gathering ships The pos would be needed as a secure base to have one island of peace in a potentially very hostile place, just to rep and take a break There would need to be logistics to get resources back to K-space In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled. I wouldn't worry about replacing lost ships - the NPC's will probably pod you too.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:45:00 - [425] Edited by: Ikar Kaltin on 26/01/2009 22:45:20 Originally by: DaemonBarber I wouldn't worry about replacing lost ships - the NPC's will probably pod you too. Nope, they arent that mean, they are just going to ransom....
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:46:00 - [426] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Alz Shado Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. . I hope your introduceng a "improved orca" as a exploration base for wormholes, perhaps a "pilot whale" or "Globicephala" or Calder=n
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:47:00 - [427] the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days. you can always find a w-w link and find a k-w path from that new space, but you cant rely on exhausting suboptimal k-w links by jumping repeatedly until you get a good one. ive got to take my hat off to you guys tho, this has really got me interested.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:49:00 - [428] Originally by: Demeterus In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled. No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic.

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:51:00 - [429] Originally by: Xennith the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days. you can always find a w-w link and find a k-w path from that new space, but you cant rely on exhausting suboptimal k-w links by jumping repeatedly until you get a good one. ive got to take my hat off to you guys tho, this has really got me interested. I thought of that already, but the problem with the idea is.. wormholes constantly respawn. All you do is wait for a Wormhole to Empire link to show up. And if you get a WH to WH link and it stays as 2-way, you can jump back and forth to reduce the mass count and help it destabilize quicker (though it would mean picking the right ship). All it would do is delay things, but say your corp set up a POS and had enough fuel on the first trip through to keep it online for a month. There are bound to be direct links to known space in that time, which you use to restock your fuel. Everything else can be obtained by using assembly arrays.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:54:00 - [430] yep, wont stop you doing it, but it makes it non trivial. you can still go to w space nextdoor and find a k-w link, but that requires :effort: and :coordination: instead of jumpjumpjumpjumpjumpjump phut "ok, wheres the next one come out?" rinse repeat.

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:54:00 - [431] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Demeterus In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled. No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic. From what I've read so far it seems that W-Space has the potential to be very good indeed. A concern has got to be what if it is 'too good'? Have you considered the impact upon 0.0 space and the slightly shaky sov system (AKA POS borefare) and even more pressingly the impact on Low Sec space? C.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:55:00 - [432] Originally by: Rex Lashar 2-way travel = colonization of Wormhole space. I agree with this conclusion. However, I am not certain that is a bad thing. Adding W-Space that can be colonized could be intersting. Adding W-Space that cannot be colonized could be intersting. We could have a bit of both by simply having some systems flagged to spawn only 1-way wormholes, and some that spawn 2-way wormholes. The problem with 1-way wormholes is that you can't scout a route back to K-space. If you can't find your way back with your spoils, then there is no point going in the first place.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:55:00 - [433] Originally by: CCP Whisper No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic. Hehe, but ask yourself this: which was more important to the development of the New World - the Santa Maria or the Mayflower ;)
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:58:00 - [434] Originally by: Letrange Scanner changes... booooooner!!!! One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going? The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot? If it works that way then yes. So what? If you can tell a probe to warp anywhere then deep space SS become no different than an inline SS.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 22:58:00 - [435] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Demeterus In the dev blog there seems to be a fairly good balance which means you can't just warp in a capital fleet and wipe out a smaller corp or alliance that already exist there, and it was my impression that you were heading in a direction where even small scale logistics were becoming impossible. If I read that wrong, then I am of course humbled. No, I think small scale logistics will still have a place in wormhole space. I expect in the first few months we'll see people attempting both the large-scale, "take over systems and hold them" approach as well as smaller scale "ninja exploring" with four or five ships to dart in, grab what they can and get out. Which one will be the most profitable over time is an unknown quantity. Attempting to hold a system with the logistical wrangling that entails might not pay off as much as people think compared to the profit to be made from splitting your large group up into several squads who hit and run. We'll be keeping a very close eye on how things develop and re-balance as required. W-space is here to stay and we will do whatever we need to in order to make it a fun and rewarding game mechanic. I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules.
DaemonBarber Sesquipedalianites Incorporated	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:00:00 - [436] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Letrange Scanner changes... booooooner!!!! One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going? The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot? If it works that way then yes. So what? If you can tell a probe to warp anywhere then deep space SS become no different than an inline SS. I thought they warped to you, not the other way around...

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:01:00 - [437] Originally by: Demeterus Hehe, but ask yourself this: which was more important to the development of the New World - the Santa Maria or the Mayflower ;) The Santa Maria proved that it could be done and inspired more to follow in its wake. The Mayflower brought those willing to work and fight to start a new life. I'd say they were both pretty important in the long-run. Which one are we aiming for in Apocrypha? Personally I am aiming for a bit of both.

Pirc Balar Minmatar Destruction Reborn	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:03:00 - [438] And this is why, when my sub is up in a couple months I'll be reactivating and actually logging on. Great stuff. Can't wait to read / learn more.

CCP Whisper	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 - [439] Originally by: Raymon James I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules. This idea has merit and I would so get one for my player char. Whether we develop an exploration ship remains to be seen...let's see what people manage to do with the current resources at their disposal. Who knows, perhaps those cunning ship designers at ORE will spot a market niche to be filled at some point in the future.

Sade Onyx	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 - [440] Sorry if its already been asked/answerd but will entering a wormhole deactivate a cloak ? and, will there only ever be one wormhole in either K-space and W-space. eg, is it possible I might find two wormholes in one system, or maybe find 3 other wormholes in W-space?

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 - [441] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar 2-way travel = colonization of Wormhole space. I agree with this conclusion. However, I am not certain that is a bad thing. Adding W-Space that can be colonized could be intersting. Adding W-Space that cannot be colonized could be intersting. We could have a bit of both by simply having some systems flagged to spawn only 1-way wormholes, and some that spawn 2-way wormholes. The problem with 1-way wormholes is that you can't scout a route back to K-space. If you can't find your way back with your spoils, then there is no point going in the first place. On the question of whether its not a bad thing... First lets assume there are good, better and best WH systems based on their true-sec value. Since they're static, and people can concentrate.. who gets all the best ones? Even if just 5% of all Wormhole systems are colonized by big groups, they're not going to settle in the crappy areas. Which means it's no different from regular 0.0 - you have to settle for less if you want to avoid blobbing and fleet fights. Second, if you can run POS forever, there will be POS everywhere. You're essentially adding more moons to harvest. And because you can keep them running forever, it means taking control of the best moons will become even more difficult over time. Instead of finding a Dyspro moon, mining it for a month, running out of fuel and packing up for someone else to discover.. you stay there. New players several months in will have an ever decreasing chance of striking rich. Now consider: how do you challenge the moon claim when it becomes time consuming and difficult to bring in equal numbers or dreadnaughts? Anyone think of that? Third, the very idea of venturing into the unknown, taking risks, and exploring fails when people have the control to go where they want and do what they want with perfect safety. People will argue about local removal (in the above feedback), but a big part of it is to preserve this feeling. On the question of not being able to scout back to known space... Well, I don't understand what you mean here. Even if the wormhole doesn't SAY if it goes back to known space or wormhole space, you're not going to be stuck forever provided you can keep scanning down new wormholes. Eventually you'll end up in known space. Obviously, where you end up is down to luck but even if you're in Period Basis or something stupid like that - you can make it back to Jita with your riches :P
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 - [442] So if it seems the desire is to persuade more towards a small expeditionary force of 5 or 6 pilots going in, grabbing what they can, and coming back out, what would that force include, and what would the gameplay be like? 1. Prober - Used to find the initial and exit wormholes into and out of W-Sapce. Also needed to find the ever important exploration content IN W-Space that the 'rewards' would come from. 2. Hauler - Needed to get the 'rewards' back out to K-Space for use. 3-5+. Combat Pilots - Protection against NPC's, other players, and to clear whatever sites are found. It comes to mind that, without any way in W-Space for one to bring along extra ships - or to change ships, other than an Orca, that the job of members 1 and 2 would not be very enjoyable. It's almost as if an Orca is required, and that a small tower would also be a requisite. Fly the Orca in, with a bunch of Hac's or whatever, anchor the small tower, for a 'safe place to park the Orca, launch some combat ships, and fly out and do your stuff, hauling the 'booty' back to the POS, to be placed in the Orca. Pack it all back up, and fly to where ever you can get to. This of course, means that the wormhole would have to be large enough to carry both an Orca, but also all your combat ships. As some other 'requests for wondrous information': - What is the Mass used in determining what can fit through a wormhole, the Ship Mass, or the aggregate mass of all cargo + the ship? This is exceedingly important as you start talking about bringing in a Orca, with a full hold, CHA, and SMA. - Looking at the above assumed scenario, this puts a minimum time required for a wormhole expedition at many hours, putting it out of reach for the 'casual gamer' that EvE, in many other respects, caters to nicely.
Enthral	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:05:00 - [443] Will it be at all possible to map the wormhole connections, given patience and luck? For example, will the connections be such that individual wormholes are on a rotation? System A, B, C, A, B, C, etc.? This would allow determined individuals to know that while, at this particular moment, system A has no connections to system C, eventually it will again. Exploration is almost pointless if things are COMPLETELY random. Why explore somewhere you can't map? A place you will never see again, except by pure chance? Why dive deeper into W-space if you're simply trapping yourself further, lost in a hall of mirrors? -Enthral
ZombieFan 69er	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:06:00 - [444] Originally by: Raymon James I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules. I think what your suggesting is an ORCA with a little less industrial/mining and more science and exploration etc?
Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:07:00 - [445] When can we expect this on SiSi???
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:08:00 - [446] A quick observation / question for the Devs, in the blog you write: "Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions". Clearly you could then create a mobile 'bookmark' of sorts to manouveur a fleet using this process. So, could anything be implemented to allow such movement without the use of probes? C.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:08:00 - [447] Originally by: Xennith the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days. 1. Find good system. 2. Intentionally Crash WH 3. Enjoy private playground for 2/3 days.
Zifban	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:12:00 - [448] You should change it from a "Mass Limit" to a "Mass Timer". Meaning if a WH is open, you can always transit it, regardless of how much mass it has remaining. When the mass timer goes zero or negative, it closes. I don't want to end up finding a whole bunch of half-closed WHs lying around 'cause they've dropped below size X and no one wants to use size <X or get stuck on the other side. Arbitrary limits suck. I've got a HAC, CBC, carrier or whatever. Let me use it. If I get stuck on the other side, so be it, but don't stop me because someone else has ran the counter down. The size restricted accel gates are a pain, don't repeat that design. I'd like to see a handful of caps end up in empire. A carrier/dread/MS/titan by itself is vulnerable .
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:13:00 - [449] Originally by: DaemonBarber Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Letrange Scanner changes... booooooner!!!! One question I have is how the resolution of existing BPOs and inventory is going? The adjustable scan sizes will be totally awesome. Being able to place em anywhere in a system and then warp TO them however I have a question: Could this be used by anyone wishing to establish a deep safespot? If it works that way then yes. So what? If you can tell a probe to warp anywhere then deep space SS become no different than an inline SS. I thought they warped to you, not the other way around... Reading is hard. From the dev blog: Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:14:00 - [450] Originally by: ZombieFan 69er Originally by: Raymon James I still think the idea of a Calder=n(pilot whale) mobile Exploration base is the solution to this problem. something that can deal with being dumped in low sec, has the hanger cap to suport a small-medium exploration corp, and bonuses to probes and Exploration modules. I think what your suggesting is an ORCA with a little less industrial/mining and more science and exploration etc? that and a slightly better base tank. As it is its ok for use as an empire Explorer (theirs already at least one group that has Orcas as moble bases to explore) but given what may be needed to set up an op in Wspace it can use some optimising

Phaton Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:14:00 - [451] having played for several years and recently gettign a bit jaded with Eve this is just what i needed, and for the 1st time in ages im realy excited about a new feature. Thank you CCP. I for one hope that this injects some new 0.0 opportunty for the small alliances / medium size corps to play the game more independantly of the big alliances.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:19:00 - [452] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Xennith the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days. 1. Find good system. 2. Intentionally Crash WH 3. Enjoy private playground for 2/3 days. other players can always come in via w-w links, infact if theres always a k-w link, theres no real need to explore deeper than one layer of w space, if theres not always a k-w link, then players are going to need to move around in w space more to find the precious k-w links. this would lead to more people entering your "private" system than if there were a link to it in deepest darkest 0.0.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:20:00 - [453] I know I'm on a posting spree right now, but I want to point out something cool if these two changes were made: 1. 1-way travel 2. A wormhole system does not have to have 1 link to known space at all times. 3. No 'instant' payment of rewards, like bounties. Now.. We know all WH systems are 0.0 but not all equal - presumably their value is based on true-sec. We know that WH systems found in high sec empire anomalies won't be as great as those you find in 0.0. Lets say that crappy WH systems have a 40% chance of linking back to known space. Mediocre systems might be 20%. Good WH systems might be 10%. The very best might only link to known space 5% of all spawns. That way, exploring from WH -> WH is encouraged as a means of finding the best places. In the present explanation of the mechanic, there's no concept of 'depth' like there is with a corp trying to reach the end of the map. And if you remove the rule that every system has to link back to known space, while travel remains 1-way.. Then you get the real feeling of exploration, because every effort spent going deeper has to be matched in coming back out again. And you need to come back out safety to cash in your fat rewards.
Samari Ti	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:21:00 - [454] well, the most important question hasnt been answered yet: what is the wife-acceptance-factor of the expansion like? I dare not crave for this to come just to find myself unable to actually play. ;)
Lightbringer Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:22:00 - [455] Quote: Well we are going to change that. We are going to give you uncharted, unknown places to visit via paths that shift and slide through the fabric of space. We are going to give you thousands of new solar systems which will contain new NPC's, new exploration content and new pockets of resources to exploit resources to exploit Very nice choice of words.
Wollari Phoenix Industries Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:22:00 - [456] * Will the wormholes appears as beacon on the overview, or can you only find them in your scanner menu (like known objectes in this space) * If someone found the wormhole, will it popup on the overview for all players in the system (like those faction warfare stuff) or does everybody needs to scan it down / warp to gang mate? * What about killmails. As we now know, there will be no system name. Will you have more details or just "System: unknown" * Will there be a option like "active wormholes" on the star map as overlay? For the pirates who wanna find the wormholes quick, scan them down and gank the pve player in the unknown space * Will there be informations about this wormhole spaces in the static database export? * Will there be api informations about whormholes? (To track Wormhole activity in your sov holding "known" space). And btw. I like exploration. Just probing 2 hours for a site isn't funny. I'm looking forward to the new stuff
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:24:00 - [457] Have you thought about making wormholes in K-space work like... K-space to W-space you come out on the other side with the wormhole behind you Then if you take the Wormhole Back into K-space, instead of popping out in the other side of the wormhole you pop up in K-space within 5 jumps of the K-space worm hole? Does that even make any sense? So wait.. see if I can make this make more sense... Wormholes let you travel into W-space... and then back... but instead of simply poping up back in K-space right next to the wormhole again.. your somewhere within 5 jumps... randomly.. That would make it harder to move cap ships out of W-space, and make it a lot harder to just jump in and out of a wormhole to close it, but would allow for players to easily escape and camp W-space. That what I would bring to the table.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:24:00 - [458] Originally by: Samari Ti well, the most important question hasnt been answered yet: what is the wife-acceptance-factor of the expansion like? I dare not crave for this to come just to find myself unable to actually play. ;) WAF is ever important, and was a point in one of my last posts. If the minimum time required to get anything out of W-Space is on the order of several hours, it will remove the possibility for a number of new eden's pilots to experience it.
Lady Ione	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:26:00 - [459] Edited by: Lady Ione on 26/01/2009 23:29:50 Originally by: Wollari * Will the wormholes appears as beacon on the overview, or can you only find them in your scanner menu (like known objectes in this space) * If someone found the wormhole, will it popup on the overview for all players in the system (like those faction warfare stuff) or does everybody needs to scan it down / warp to gang mate? * What about killmails. As we now know, there will be no system name. Will you have more details or just "System: unknown" * Will there be a option like "active wormholes" on the star map as overlay? For the pirates who wanna find the wormholes quick, scan them down and gank the pve player in the unknown space * Will there be informations about this wormhole spaces in the static database export? * Will there be api informations about whormholes? (To track Wormhole activity in your sov holding "known" space). And btw. I like exploration. Just probing 2 hours for a site isn't funny. I'm looking forward to the new stuff Even I can answer these based on dev responses: 1. No 2. No 3. Probably 4. No 5. No 6. No Atleast thats what i hope
Lady Ione	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:27:00 - [460] Originally by: MotherMoon ... Wormholes let you travel into W-space... and then back... but instead of simply poping up back in K-space right next to the wormhole again.. your somewhere within 5 jumps... randomly.. That would make it harder to move cap ships out of W-space, and make it a lot harder to just jump in and out of a wormhole to close it, but would allow for players to easily escape and camp W-space. That what I would bring to the table. Best idea/solution I've seen yet

Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:32:00 - [461] Edited by: Bielbo on 26/01/2009 23:33:11 Originally by: Lady Ione Originally by: MotherMoon ... Wormholes let you travel into W-space... and then back... but instead of simply poping up back in K-space right next to the wormhole again.. your somewhere within 5 jumps... randomly.. That would make it harder to move cap ships out of W-space, and make it a lot harder to just jump in and out of a wormhole to close it, but would allow for players to easily escape and camp W-space. That what I would bring to the table. Best idea/solution I've seen yet Utterly purposterous! Your insane! In fact if you wanna come up with a game mechanic and CCP make that i should ***** slap every one of ya that insist thats a good idea!
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:32:00 - [462] Originally by: Xennith Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Xennith the easiest solution to the "gaming the system" and using a scout in w space to find w-k paths and get people in k->w is just to get rid of this idea of "every system has a link to k space". just say that if a k-w path is exhausted by mass being moved through it, it becomes unlikely that that system will get a k-w path for the next 2/3 days. 1. Find good system. 2. Intentionally Crash WH 3. Enjoy private playground for 2/3 days. other players can always come in via w-w links, infact if theres always a k-w link, theres no real need to explore deeper than one layer of w space, if theres not always a k-w link, then players are going to need to move around in w space more to find the precious k-w links. this would lead to more people entering your "private" system than if there were a link to it in deepest darkest 0.0. Yes but it's still better. In both cases you have W-W traffic but in the original example you have no K-W. So there's less possible traffic. Thus it's more private than other systems.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:39:00 - [463] Originally by: Rex Lashar On the question of not being able to scout back to known space... So standard proceedure for returning home from W-space is... 1) Covert Ops finds wormhole. 2) Everyone else in the expidition logs on and jumps through the wormhole then logs off. 3) If not empire space, return to step 1. Doesn't sound too fun to me.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:39:00 - [464] meh, i disagree. if every system has a k-w link, people arent going to need to look for w-w links. how busy a system is will depend entirely on what knownspace system it links to, so if you find a kw link in your core 0.0 space, you're probably ok. if only some systems have k-w links, people are more likely to move around inside w space, meaning more chance encounters with random people. basically i think that the "every system must have a k-w link" is the flaw, tweak that and we're good to go, i just gave one idea on how to do that.
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:41:00 - [465] The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of 2-way wormholes. And 1-way wormholes brings about another can of metagaming-worms- just send alts through to see if its worth your while. So, here is my suggested alteration: Include both 1-way and 2-way wormholes. Set the frequency for mostly 1-way wormholes, with less 2-way ones. The ratio of one-way to two-way can be any- I imagine 9:1, with 2-way mom-sized wormholes being the rarest. Now, to address the issue of metagaming with alts and such: change the observator probe to go through wormholes to do some surveying on the other side. IMO, let the probe see the number of planets, moons, and belts. Basically, anything an alt in a noobship can see, this probe should see too. However, other wormholes in the system cannot be checked by this probe. The scouting ship must go through and survey on its own. With that probe change you don't have that blind-jump, no escape thing with 1-way wormholes. August Guns
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:42:00 - [466] Awesome One question that may have been asked before, though. How would cynos be handled in the new systems and would we be able to jumpdrive in or would we have to use the wormholes? And do the new systems have real positions on the map despite being hidden? Because then I could use the amount of fuel used to jump there from 4 known points to quadlaterate the position of the new system on the map, essentially mapping the location of a hidden system. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Erakyn Big Orange Cog	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:43:00 - [467] As a Gallente pilot, one issue I see is currently there is no way to replenish drones in your drone bay without docking... Will there be a mechanism to allow for us to restock drones from our cargo holds into our drone bays if we are in a stationless W-space for an extended period of time?
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:44:00 - [468] orca.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:45:00 - [469] Just an idea for the next expansion, the one after this - allow the players to build stargates between W-W systems. Not between W-space and K-space though. A new stargate, considering the forces that needs to be tamed, should be the equivalent of building an outpost. With the limitations on what you realistically can bring from K-space to W-space, you'd need to gather the resources in W-space. Just a thought. But it probably goes against the ideas expressed in the devblog. But as CCP Whisper responded to me above - allow the people of the Mayflower to realistically work. :) --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Draconus Lofwyr Gallente M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:45:00 - [470] will these worm hole systems be regional or totally expansive, say I enter a wormhole in Deklin, and it collapses behind me, and another opens up, is it possible that it could open in Delve or Cobalt Edge? or will it just be a different constellation within the same region? What type of resources might we be expecting, new types of ore? rare ices? Unknown Archeological sites? Is it possible we may encounter alien stations that we can dock at and make possible standings with? DL The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:46:00 - [471] Originally by: Xennith meh, i disagree. if every system has a k-w link, people arent going to need to look for w-w links. how busy a system is will depend entirely on what knownspace system it links to, so if you find a kw link in your core 0.0 space, you're probably ok. if only some systems have k-w links, people are more likely to move around inside w space, meaning more chance encounters with random people. basically i think that the "every system must have a k-w link" is the flaw, tweak that and we're good to go, i just gave one idea on how to do that. Id agree too many k > w links will reduce the incentive to explore w < > w links. However the issue in my view is not how easy it is to jump fro k > w but back. Fewer / less relaibe w > k links will determine to what degree W-Space is a leap into the unknown. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:46:00 - [472] Originally by: Nyphur Awesome One question that may have been asked before, though. How would cynos be handled in the new systems and would we be able to jumpdrive in or would we have to use the wormholes? And do the new systems have real positions on the map despite being hidden? Because then I could use the amount of fuel used to jump there from 4 known points to quadlaterate the position of the new system on the map, essentially mapping the location of a hidden system. Earlier dev posts indicate that you will not be able to use jump drives for either direction.
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:47:00 - [473] Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Originally by: Zilli Zilp Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. The more I think about the current as-described mechanic, the more I think it's an "I Win" button for large alliances. Consider: once you get a POS anchored in a W system, it will be very difficult to dislodge. In order to take it down, your enemies must find a wormhole connection to it that is large enough to permit them to bring in a fleet sufficient to take down the POS. However, the situation is asymmetric; the POS owners, using their alts stationed in the system, will simply do regular scans for wormholes. These will roughly sort into several categories: 1) Wormholes big enough to allow enough tonnage in to be a threat to the POS, and which connect to an area controlled by an enemy that might mount an attack. These will be quickly "used up" until their remaining mass limit renders an attack futile, then either closed by the same technique, or left open as bait, guaranteeing overwhelming superiority against any gang foolish enough to enter. 2) Wormholes that link to friendly space. These will be used for logistics, and in particular, reinforcing the POS. After a certain point, the POS will be sufficiently strong that it simply can't be taken down, because the forces needed to do so won't fit through the largest possible wormhole. 3) Wormholes that link to Empire/Lowsec will be used to get the goodies out, and supply newbie meat to the grinder. The point is that larger alliances, because they control more systems, are more likely to get enough type-2 wormholes (which, after the initial once, can be small) to make the POS invulnerable before a rival will get a wormhole that lets them take down the POS. Also, during the construction period, they can rapidly cycle the wormholes until they get one they like, whereas their opponents must get lucky and find a big wormhole and assemble an attack fleet and get through before the W-space residents close it. Furthermore, even if the system doesn't have a local fuel source, the ability to cycle the wormholes makes this at most an inconvenience. As the system is currently described, the likely final stability point will be heavily deathstar'd W-space systems controlled by the large alliances. So, what can be done to avoid this, or at least slow it down? One possibility might be a mechanic where ships of a certain mass or greater have a very good chance of causing the wormhole to destabilize and send them to a random system; a group-jump system could be used to jump an entire gang at once, combining their masses, so that people don't get split up. But even that only slows things down, because for the larger alliances, it will be worth it to send "blind" seeding expeditions through wormholes with everything needed to set up a POS, even if the chance is 100% you'll go to a random system. In the early days, since almost all of them will be unclaimed, it will be a good bet. Once you've got the POS up and some people in the system, you will be able to rapidly link back to your logistical support. Short of not allowing POS in W-space, I don't see an obvious solution. World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:49:00 - [474] Originally by: Nyphur Awesome One question that may have been asked before, though. How would cynos be handled in the new systems and would we be able to jumpdrive in or would we have to use the wormholes? And do the new systems have real positions on the map despite being hidden? Because then I could use the amount of fuel used to jump there from 4 known points to quadlaterate the position of the new system on the map, essentially mapping the location of a hidden system. iirc a dev has already responded saying you cant cyno too, or from a W-System. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Protheroe	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:50:00 - [475] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. Wormholes sound like they're going to be a great sandbox feature, but having a hard (and quite low) limit on the number of trips you can ever make through a high sec wormhole seems a little restrictive. I like the idea that taking a cap ship through a wormhole into high sec would get it blown up by the local navy (maybe also a big personal/corp standings loss - try to move your Corporation's cap fleet into high sec space and you become an enemy of the faction?), but if that would cause too many problems to implement, how about giving wormholes a "bandwidth"? In that case there would be the mass limit, that would determine how many trips you could make with a certain ship, and the bandwidth, that would limit which ships could traverse the wormhole. Wormholes into high sec would always have a sub-capital bandwidth, whereas all others would be assigned randomly (so you might find a wormhole with a very high mass limit, allowing for many trips, but which would only allow you to move small ships through. This might also help with the logistical annoyance issue too.)
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:51:00 - [476] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Rex Lashar On the question of not being able to scout back to known space... So standard proceedure for returning home from W-space is... 1) Covert Ops finds wormhole. 2) Everyone else in the expidition logs on and jumps through the wormhole then logs off. 3) If not empire space, return to step 1. Doesn't sound too fun to me. You're not thinking with portals. If the expedition is over, everyone is loaded with loot and ready to go home.. do they really need to travel as a group? Yes it would be ideal, but not necessary. Consider the following.. 1. Covert ops finds wormhole, goes through and its another WH system. He goes "dang", but he does not need to get his entire corp to log on and follow him through. 2. If you're a big group, its less practical to stay together if your goal is just to get back to known space. WH have mass limits, so even if you find a link back to empire it might not allow everyone to jump through. Even if you all go through as a big group and end up in 0.0, the chances of getting intercepted or camped in are higher because you're a fatter and slower target. 3. The only people that absolutely need to tag along are the ones who can't probe themselves a way back. So the number of times your big group can split is the number of probers you have in your party. And if you have an Orca with you, everyone can refit for the journey home.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:52:00 - [477] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow But even that only slows things down, because for the larger alliances, it will be worth it to send "blind" seeding expeditions through wormholes with everything needed to set up a POS, even if the chance is 100% you'll go to a random system. In the early days, since almost all of them will be unclaimed, it will be a good bet. Once you've got the POS up and some people in the system, you will be able to rapidly link back to your logistical support. Short of not allowing POS in W-space, I don't see an obvious solution. I don't see why it should be solved because a small corp/alliance will not have the same obligations as a large corp/alliance. It was mentioned before in this thread that a large alliance will need to consider it's K-space borders as well, while a small empire alliance has no such obligations. And if POS'es are banned from W-space, then why should a small corp even make the attempt? Ninjaing is a bit uncertain, after all. There should of course be great risk, but it should also be possible to be rewarded for taking that risk. And being able to sustain a presence in W-space is certainly worth the risks as I understand them. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Zyck KDS Navy	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:52:00 - [478] Edited by: Zyck on 26/01/2009 23:52:03 I really don't understand all the whining from a few people in this thread about people playing cat and mouse with the wormholes. If you put such a massive effort into "colonizing" a system, then you reap the rewards. Let me state it again. Massive effort nets high rewards. Isn't that the whole point of this game? Risk vs. reward? If someone wants to spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort moving their corp/alliance into a wormhole system and dealing with the logistics of it, all the power to them. If they can do it, then they earned it. So in conclusion, stop *****ing. -Zyck
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:53:00 - [479] Originally by: August Guns The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of 2-way wormholes. And 1-way wormholes brings about another can of metagaming-worms- just send alts through to see if its worth your while. So, here is my suggested alteration: Include both 1-way and 2-way wormholes. Set the frequency for mostly 1-way wormholes, with less 2-way ones. The ratio of one-way to two-way can be any- I imagine 9:1, with 2-way mom-sized wormholes being the rarest. Now, to address the issue of metagaming with alts and such: change the observator probe to go through wormholes to do some surveying on the other side. IMO, let the probe see the number of planets, moons, and belts. Basically, anything an alt in a noobship can see, this probe should see too. However, other wormholes in the system cannot be checked by this probe. The scouting ship must go through and survey on its own. With that probe change you don't have that blind-jump, no escape thing with 1-way wormholes. I do like August's Idea of launching some sort of survey probe into the W-Space (or even into K-space). Though it would remove some of the risk of jumping into hostile alliance territory, as said, that risk would mostly be metagamed away anyways, with the alt podding through first. Basically, the survey probe would pop up a results window, much like the Survey scanner, only it would give a broad report of celestial bodies in the system. If local is not changing, then the probe should actually include a list of occupants as well, otherwise, the metagaming approach would still be used. If local is going to be in delayed mode, then the probe should basically show what would be visible on the right-click menu. Asteroid Belts, Planets, Stargates, and Stations (the latter two obviously only for probing into K-Space). For immersion and purtienss, it would be nice it it provided some of the 'fluff' info that is on the show info of planets and stars... star color, planet types, etc. All this stuff should be available to the rudimentary sensors on the survey probe. System Influence
Erakyn Big Orange Cog	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:54:00 - [480] Originally by: Xennith orca. Assuming your post was in response to my question the Orca is not really an acceptable solution for a variety of reasons. 1) The mass allocation of the wormhole may not allow an Orca 2) Not every drone pilot should be forced to bring an Orca into W-space just to replenish their ammo 3) Forcing the Orca into a logistical exploration base (regardless of whether or not it is a good fit for that role) for all small corporation is not a good game mechanic.

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:54:00 - [481] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Originally by: Zilli Zilp Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. The more I think about the current as-described mechanic, the more I think it's an "I Win" button for large alliances. Consider: once you get a POS anchored in a W system, it will be very difficult to dislodge. In order to take it down, your enemies must find a wormhole connection to it that is large enough to permit them to bring in a fleet sufficient to take down the POS. Equally it will be quite hard to resupply and re fuel. Remember the wormhole that you bring your fuel in through, will die - and a Wormhole to another suitable system might not reappear for a considerable period of time. A W-POS has a very real risk of simply starving to death. C.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:57:00 - [482] Originally by: CCP Whisper Whether we develop an exploration ship remains to be seen...let's see what people manage to do with the current resources at their disposal. Who knows, perhaps those cunning ship designers at ORE will spot a market niche to be filled at some point in the future. Or the Sisters of Eve. coughNovafoxcough
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:58:00 - [483] Originally by: Erakyn Originally by: Xennith orca. Assuming your post was in response to my question the Orca is not really an acceptable solution for a variety of reasons. 1) The mass allocation of the wormhole may not allow an Orca 2) Not every drone pilot should be forced to bring an Orca into W-space just to replenish their ammo 3) Forcing the Orca into a logistical exploration base (regardless of whether or not it is a good fit for that role) for all small corporation is not a good game mechanic. you wanted a way to move drones from your cargobay to your dronebay, there it is. the orca makes a lot of sense as a mobile base, the SMA allows you to carry a couple of cruisers, enough ammo for a long time, maybe a small pos and some mods and a month of fuel. its almost like the orca was designed for this purpose tbh, and is affordable for most small corps. hell, my alt flies one and im poor. only problem is how much it weighs.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:59:00 - [484] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Originally by: Zilli Zilp Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. The more I think about the current as-described mechanic, the more I think it's an "I Win" button for large alliances. Consider: once you get a POS anchored in a W system, it will be very difficult to dislodge. In order to take it down, your enemies must find a wormhole connection to it that is large enough to permit them to bring in a fleet sufficient to take down the POS. Equally it will be quite hard to resupply and re fuel. Remember the wormhole that you bring your fuel in through, will die - and a Wormhole to another suitable system might not reappear for a considerable period of time. A W-POS has a very real risk of simply starving to death. C. Not really. 2-way travel means you can force wormholes to shut down and new ones to respawn. As long as you find a link to known space once every month or so, you're golden. It might limit the number of POS you can run in any one system, but then.. there are only a few good moons per system anyway. I would say there's a risk, but its not actually serious. It's a bigger problem for people who drop a pos and don't bother taking advantages of the small windows of opportunity. Which means you shouldn't try running one if you dont have a good presence in the system.
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2009.01.26 23:59:00 - [485] Originally by: Clansworth I do like August's Idea of launching some sort of survey probe into the W-Space (or even into K-space). Though it would remove some of the risk of jumping into hostile alliance territory, as said, that risk would mostly be metagamed away anyways, with the alt podding through first. Basically, the survey probe would pop up a results window, much like the Survey scanner, only it would give a broad report of celestial bodies in the system. If local is not changing, then the probe should actually include a list of occupants as well, otherwise, the metagaming approach would still be used. If local is going to be in delayed mode, then the probe should basically show what would be visible on the right-click menu. Asteroid Belts, Planets, Stargates, and Stations (the latter two obviously only for probing into K-Space). For immersion and purtienss, it would be nice it it provided some of the 'fluff' info that is on the show info of planets and stars... star color, planet types, etc. All this stuff should be available to the rudimentary sensors on the survey probe. Oops. I hadn't thought about local. Perhaps it was because I had hoped that CCP would have changed local to delayed mode (or excluded it) for wormhole space. CCP has a great chance to make wormhole space something entirely new from the rest of the game. We don't need 0.0 with some quirks. Give us an entirely new kind of wild west.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:05:00 - [486] Originally by: August Guns Oops. I hadn't thought about local. Perhaps it was because I had hoped that CCP would have changed local to delayed mode (or excluded it) for wormhole space. CCP has a great chance to make wormhole space something entirely new from the rest of the game. We don't need 0.0 with some quirks. Give us an entirely new kind of wild west. Word, Holmes. Break it down.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:05:00 - [487] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Quote: There will be two new probe types, exploration and combat. Exploration probes will not be able to locate ships and drones but will have extremely low fitting requirements, making them ideal for people who wish to hunt down wormholes and other celestial anomalies. The combat probe launcher is able to detect ships and drones but has a higher fitting requirement, making this the tool of choice for those wishing to hunt down other pilots. We are still in the process of balancing these probes and launchers and yes, we are looking into the options of how to deal with the existing probes, probe blueprints and launchers. AHA! I knew CCP would find a way to nerf piracy! Mark my words, whatever probing scheme they come up with for the new system, it won't be as effective as what we're currently using to kill mission runners (i.e. racial quest probes). I'm sure that this will end up as a nerf to piracy in many ways. Probing will clearly be gutted. They'll be able to freely run missions in any space. Then the carebears will get mega-safespots(wormhole space) in which to rat freely. I fully expect local to be present in wormhole space and it will just be the safest and most profitable place for any carebear. CCP- the people that were instrumental in making EVE a great game moved on to bigger and better things years ago. You guys do not understand the game or what you are doing. You need to take a slower and more measured approach while this still has some semblance of the game we all know and love.
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:07:00 - [488] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow As the system is currently described, the likely final stability point will be heavily deathstar'd W-space systems controlled by the large alliances. This.
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:08:00 - [489] So, the Mass limit which decrements seems like an idea that could use some small tweaks. First of all you need to stop capital ships using wormholes to jump to empire, so making sure that all K-W links are below this mass seems like a good idea. But that really makes K-W holes short lived because they'll be so much smaller than nullsec holes. Since expired holes respawn randomly this would lead to a darwininstic bias that will tend to make more wormholes occur in low and nullsec space. So, have a mass cap which represents the largest object that can go through, this would have no relation to the mass limit, so wormholes could be relatively stable but only allow smaller ships through. Of course, this does rule out freighters, but since freighters have severe limitations on manipulating cargo I don't see these being the best things to bring to W-Space anyway. Furthermore, wormholes should decay on their own so that wormholes with a small mass allowance remaining don't wait days to timeout. I imagine there will be few people prepared to use a wormhole which has one jump left in it, so these will hang around until they despawn.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:09:00 - [490] ill never understand the type of person who sees a whole raft of accessable 0.0 space which is going to give off a siren call to empire dwellers as a nerf to piracy. if only there were some way that pirates could take advantage of the mission runners taking expensive ships into a place with no concord.

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:10:00 - [491] Originally by: August Guns The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of 2-way wormholes. And 1-way wormholes brings about another can of metagaming-worms- just send alts through to see if its worth your while. So, here is my suggested alteration: Include both 1-way and 2-way wormholes. Set the frequency for mostly 1-way wormholes, with less 2-way ones. The ratio of one-way to two-way can be any- I imagine 9:1, with 2-way mom-sized wormholes being the rarest. Combine this with my idea maybe? Give wormholes a new attribute, give it a cool name like... Temporal Stability You can only check this on the other side of the wormhole, if the stability is 1.0 then it is for all things, considered a 2 way wormholes. These wormholes would have HUGE lasting time, and HUGE mass allowance. Then you move down to 0.8, 0.6, 0.4, 0.2, 0.0? How far from the K-space worm you are when you jump back into K-space using the wormhole 0.8 : within 1 jump or random spot in same system as wormhole or outside wormhole in K-space 0.6 : within 2 jumps or random spot in same system 0.4 : within 1-3 jumps of wormhole in K-space 0.2 : within 2-4 jumps of wormhole in K-space 0.0 : within 20 jumps! (ok maybe not :P) This way you have both 2 way wormholes, and 1 way wormholes that kinda lead back to the wormhole in K-space.
Isac Hands	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:16:00 - [492] A big cocern here. What happens when somone finds a dysp moon and put up a deathstar there mining it? Forget about the logistics for now as that is always possible with such an moneymaker. The problem is that it will be as untouchable as if set up by an NPC corp in high-sec, due to the meager firepower anone can get through a wormhole before it collapses. I cant imagine the owners would alow somone use weeks to build up a fleet. Maybe some NPC (jove?) Capital fleet roaming randomly im W-space taking out occupants is needed?
Theqwert125	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:17:00 - [493] I only have one question on the mechanics: Will cargo mass be taken into account by the wormholes? It would be interesting to see players debating on what or who to leave behind if they get too much loot. There is also the issue of filling indies with ships or minerals and moving far more material in than intended.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:18:00 - [494] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Originally by: Zilli Zilp Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. The more I think about the current as-described mechanic, the more I think it's an "I Win" button for large alliances. Consider: once you get a POS anchored in a W system, it will be very difficult to dislodge. In order to take it down, your enemies must find a wormhole connection to it that is large enough to permit them to bring in a fleet sufficient to take down the POS. Equally it will be quite hard to resupply and re fuel. Remember the wormhole that you bring your fuel in through, will die - and a Wormhole to another suitable system might not reappear for a considerable period of time. A W-POS has a very real risk of simply starving to death. C. Not really. 2-way travel means you can force wormholes to shut down and new ones to respawn. As long as you find a link to known space once every month or so, you're golden. It might limit the number of POS you can run in any one system, but then.. there are only a few good moons per system anyway. I would say there's a risk, but its not actually serious. It's a bigger problem for people who drop a pos and don't bother taking advantages of the small windows of opportunity. Which means you shouldn't try running one if you dont have a good presence in the system. Well lets consider one example. You open a K > W wormhole in Amarr, and jump in your POS and fuel (assuming for the moment the WH stays stable for this op. Now, your corp operates in this W-system for a while (your original WH has long since expired) but if you leave the chances of getting a WH back to Amarr are slim. In fact you may not even get a WH link back to Domain or, for that matter, High Sec. The chances are therefore you will end up with a re supply route that crosses Low sec or .0 quite possibly considerable portions of it. And every time you need to resupply your route will be different. Often you'll get lucky and it will be an easy hop to a suitable trade hub, often not. The time effort therefore to run the POS will be considerable. As WH's decay over time there isnt even a cast iron guaruntee that once youve opened one, (from W space) that you'll be able to travel to your source of fuel and get back to get through the WH. What if a WH is open only for a couple of minutes? "K guys the WH is open, it exits in 73-J...checking market..damn no fuel for 15 jumps...WH closing in 60 seconds..." C.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:19:00 - [495] Originally by: Erakyn Originally by: Xennith orca. Assuming your post was in response to my question the Orca is not really an acceptable solution for a variety of reasons. 1) The mass allocation of the wormhole may not allow an Orca 2) Not every drone pilot should be forced to bring an Orca into W-space just to replenish their ammo 3) Forcing the Orca into a logistical exploration base (regardless of whether or not it is a good fit for that role) for all small corporation is not a good game mechanic. 1)Except for the detail that they have already indicated that it was a posiblity that you could bring in motherships. A Nyx masses in at 1,292,500,000 kg an Orca masses in at 250,000,000 you can thus run 5 Orcas through a W that can handle a nyx. 2) fine then bring in a Itheron. 3) Gee dont tell that to the people who are currently useing orcas as mobile exploration bases right now. but even at that my sudgestion for a "Pilot whale" class exploration ship that is designed around the idea of useing wormholes Role Bonus: 250% bonus to Scan probe endurance NNN% bonus to Scen probe Velocity or sensitivity or however it works now NNN% bonus to Exploration scanner range 99% reduction in CPU need for Gang Link modules Wormhole Exploration bonus Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in mass for Wormhole endurance calculation (only) N% bonus to effectiveness of Exploration-science modules Seige mode idea Wormhole stabelisor, allowes a wormhole to be stabelised (from inside Wspace) long enough for a "Everyone OUT!" evacuation before the wormhole closes
Kayn Otar Samurai Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:20:00 - [496] Originally by: Protheroe ... how about giving wormholes a "bandwidth"? In that case there would be the mass limit, that would determine how many trips you could make with a certain ship, and the bandwidth, that would limit which ships could traverse the wormhole. Wormholes into high sec would always have a sub-capital bandwidth, whereas all others would be assigned randomly (so you might find a wormhole with a very high mass limit, allowing for many trips, but which would only allow you to move small ships through. This might also help with the logistical annoyance issue too.) This has the potential to solve several problems. * Prevent capitals from leaving W-space into high-sec. * Create worm-holes that are difficult to close simply by jumping back and forth. * Make it more difficult to maintain a POS without limiting "standard" exploration. * Make it more common to fly in gangs of small ships, as opposed to a few large ships. Personally, I don't care about colonizing W-space. I just want to fly in, collect some T3 components, and go home. If the rat fights are more like PvP fights, all the better. Will the rats be smart enough to scan you down and warp a squad in? Will they attack POSs? If the residents already have the equivalent of a navy, then I would expect them to protect their territory just like any other faction would.
weebil	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:22:00 - [497] it would be easy to solve the cap ship problem, the devs have already said that the w-space that connects to 0.0 will have detter rewards than that that connects to empire...all they need to do is make sure the wormholes that connect the 0.0/low sec w-space to the high sec w-space have have a smaller mass allowance than a cap ship
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:25:00 - [498] From Post 410 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. I have not gotten though the rest of the threa but wanted to point another possibility out. Since Wormhole are unstable you could set a max mass per usage that can travel though the wormhole. That way you could have a wormhole that can transport a huge amount of mass but will fail to transport a capital ship, or even a battleship because they exceed the max mass stability "index" for the WH.
LegendaryFrog Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:26:00 - [499] How do you plan on addressing what has already become somewhat of a balance issue with ammo usage. It would seem to me that these relatively closed off areas give even more of an advantage to the Amarr player who needs not worry about storing ammo (thus taking up precious cargo space to be able to actually gain something from this new space) and not being able to fire his guns. The instant change and infinite ammo mechanics of lasers is already powerful enough as it is with extended fleet battles and POS shooting mechanics. It would seem that any Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar ship/character would need to have some sort of support to maintain viability in these systems, where the Amarr equivalent is the only feasible way to do this independently. -Master Your Mind-
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:26:00 - [500] I very much doubt that the rats in wormspace will have bounties, since bounties are a CONCORD feature. It's difficult to see them dropping T1/named mods, even. Hmmm, what happens if an outlaw - with no knowledge of what's on the other side of the wormhole - goes through a wormhole in wormspace and finds himself in the middle of highsec?

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:27:00 - [501] Originally by: Cailais Well lets consider one example. You open a K > W wormhole in Amarr, and jump in your POS and fuel (assuming for the moment the WH stays stable for this op. Now, your corp operates in this W-system for a while (your original WH has long since expired) but if you leave the chances of getting a WH back to Amarr are slim. In fact you may not even get a WH link back to Domain or, for that matter, High Sec. The chances are therefore you will end up with a re supply route that crosses Low sec or .0 quite possibly considerable portions of it. And every time you need to resupply your route will be different. Often you'll get lucky and it will be an easy hop to a suitable trade hub, often not. The time effort therefore to run the POS will be considerable. As WH's decay over time there isnt even a cast iron guaruntee that once youve opened one, (from W space) that you'll be able to travel to your source of fuel and get back to get through the WH. What if a WH is open only for a couple of minutes? "K guys the WH is open, it exits in 73-J...checking market..damn no fuel for 15 jumps...WH closing in 60 seconds..." C. You're essentially repeating what I said a couple pages back. I realize the resupply route is going to be different every time, but that's pretty irrelevant. High sec travel is safe, and Jump Drives let you shift a crap-ton of fuel to the target system in no time. The only factor to consider is how close you can get to the target system if its Cyno Jammed. Compare that to running a POS in the deep end of 0.0. For those refueling trips, you have to take the long and dangerous route EVERY TIME. With WH systems, you might get lucky a few times and end up in high sec. All you're doing is exchanging predictability for some luck potential. And lets not even forget that POS in WH systems are ten times less likely to get sieged. Your last assumption, that you can't reach the target system in time is unrealistic to say the least. If you have a loaded fuel ship/convoy ready to roll, the wormhole only needs to stay open for two hours. The point of all this is, you can say what you want about the process but the fact that its even possible to fuel POS on a regular basis means it will happen.
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:28:00 - [502] Originally by: Isac Hands Maybe some NPC (jove?) Capital fleet roaming randomly im W-space taking out occupants is needed? This sounds interesting, but lets face it, it's not feasible. You're basically saying that every pos needs to be a deathstar just to stay operational because rats are going to come shoot it. I think we need to rethink the whole pos question. Do we really want to add a glut of moons for alliances to blob over? Unknown space should be as unique as it can be. Prevent moon-miners and all related pos modules from working in wormhole space (or make the moons barren). Leave the T2 production chain (and its moon-centric pos's) in the New Eden Galaxy. As an addendum to my above suggestion, perhaps moons should provide some sort of resource that, when refined/constructed/whatevered it can be used to help supply operations in unknown space, such as pos fuel (not ice products!) to minerals. August Guns
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:29:00 - [503] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Nyphur Awesome One question that may have been asked before, though. How would cynos be handled in the new systems and would we be able to jumpdrive in or would we have to use the wormholes? And do the new systems have real positions on the map despite being hidden? Because then I could use the amount of fuel used to jump there from 4 known points to quadlaterate the position of the new system on the map, essentially mapping the location of a hidden system. Earlier dev posts indicate that you will not be able to use jump drives for either direction. Thank you! I was hoping a dev had already responded to that. I'm really excited about this expansion now :D EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Erakyn Big Orange Cog	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:31:00 - [504] Originally by: Xennith you wanted a way to move drones from your cargobay to your dronebay, there it is. Sure the Orca is a great option (aside from the potential mass limitations on W-space) but what about solo exploration for drone pilots? What about people without Orca alts (shocking I know but they exist... some of us don't have Falcon alts either) or corps without Orcas? Why should drone pilots be forced to take an extra pilot and a 600 million ship into unexplored hostile space just to reload? It would also force the Orca pilot to be online whenever a drone pilot needs to reload. I just saying that I think there needs to be another option introduced (i.e. something like a mobile expedition platform to allow module/drone refitting requires anchoring 1).
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:33:00 - [505] Will w-space systems always have a wormhole available for use? Will w-space have multiple wormholes active at the same time, so that you can come in from one side and out another? Or even have a w-space 'hub' with multiple random links? Will wormholes be more common in 0.0 and lowsec than in high sec, with respect to the total percentage of wormholes open at any given point in the day? Will you be able to use bubbles in w-space? Or HICs? Or dictors? How about bubbling one side of a wormhole? Or the other? Or both? Will cloaks be able to be used in w-space? Or near wormholes? They aren't able to be used in some deadspaces due to clouds etc. I know that it's been said that you can't cyno into a w-space system, but what about out? I'm assuming not. What about BlackOps and covert cynos? If a wormhole opens that has enough mass to get a ship in (carrier for example) will the next/future wormhole that opens be big enough (mass wise) to get it out? Will wormhole time duration be a function of how much mass capacity it has and how much as traveled through it (i.e. great amount of mass, extremely stable, or the other way around: high mass, less stable, low mass, more stable (longer lasting))? I do see the ability for larger alliances to find a particularly lucrative w-space system and then set up a few POS in it, and then break/kill all wormhole connections that aren't beneficial to their current situation (i.e. wormholes that lead to hostile space, or indeed, any wormhole that leads to anything that simply isn't helpful). Once a new wormhole is found, push your resident scout out, see where it is, kill it if it's crap and wait for the next one. I know this has been mentioned before, but it bears repeating. In 0.0 it wouldn't take much effort to get a cyno frig into a system long enough to cyno a carrier to the k-space side of the wormhole, swap supplies and ships and mined resources, and then cloak it up and cyno it out later. Carriers would simply 'service' w-space systems at the mouths of wormholes. Sure, this won't work for high sec wormholes, but it seems easy enough to simply poke your head through a new wormhole, see where it leads, and if it's nothing good then just kill it with an alt and start over. How hard will it be to sneak CovOps around 0.0/lowsec to get fleets of carriers/jump freighters into position at the mouth of a wormhole for resupply? Particularly if the target area is as valuable as something as a r64 moon or 10/10 plex or something? Everyone is assuming you actually have to put your big ships IN the space. You don't. You just have to park them next to it and use your INVULNERABLE T2 transports like Viators and Prowlers and Cranes to ferry stuff around. If there are hostiles in the area, just stay cloaked and wait them out. In all probability the connection points will be random enough that people won't be crossing paths with you much in the first place. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:36:00 - [506] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Will you be able to use bubbles in w-space? Or HICs? Or dictors? How about bubbling one side of a wormhole? Or the other? Or both? All W-space is 0.0. That means all 0.0 things will be in that space. No Concord, Bubbles, Bombs, Doomsdays, no sec loss. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:37:00 - [507] Originally by: Erakyn Originally by: Xennith you wanted a way to move drones from your cargobay to your dronebay, there it is. Sure the Orca is a great option (aside from the potential mass limitations on W-space) but what about solo exploration for drone pilots? What about people without Orca alts (shocking I know but they exist... some of us don't have Falcon alts either) or corps without Orcas? Why should drone pilots be forced to take an extra pilot and a 600 million ship into unexplored hostile space just to reload? It would also force the Orca pilot to be online whenever a drone pilot needs to reload. I just saying that I think there needs to be another option introduced (i.e. something like a mobile expedition platform to allow module/drone refitting requires anchoring 1). Small POS with ship maintenance bay does the same thing at considerably less cost. But the thing you're complaining about is a problem for solo pilots who venture into 0.0 today. And it applies to any consumable charges, not just drones but ammo and cap boosters. Why do you need special treatment, and a change of game mechanics? Is it because you're actually interested in venturing out here? Well the challenge of doing it solo should be increased, not decreased of all things. If you're so concerned about replacing drones, then try to make a friend or two on the other side and see if they'll let you use their Orca/POS. Otherwise, don't lose your drones, or don't use drone ships, or don't expect to go out and never have to come back. I'm pretty sure a solo pilot in a Dominix is going to fill up his cargo with loot long before he burns through all his spare drones.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:38:00 - [508] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Bellum Eternus Will you be able to use bubbles in w-space? Or HICs? Or dictors? How about bubbling one side of a wormhole? Or the other? Or both? All W-space is 0.0. That means all 0.0 things will be in that space. No Concord, Bubbles, Bombs, Doomsdays, no sec loss. Probably not doomsdays, letting in even standard caps would be a mistake. And you can't build a Titan in location without sovereignty.
Levitikon Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:41:00 - [509] What the hell, 17 pages and noone brought it up: THE DEATHSTAR POS IN W-SPACE NEED TO BE NERFED TO OBLIVION. they are so exploitable, it's not even funny. Small dyspro mining pos is fine, but that's not how POS will be used in W-space. Deathstar POS are balanced against fleets of hundred or more BS or dreadnought fleets. In environment without enormous Battleship fleets or dreads, POS will become absolutely untouchable, indestructible safe heavens of W-space. Few advantages of POS compared to player owned station (and I'm sure idea of player owned stations inside of W-Space seems unimaginable for you): -you always see what is outside. -POS cannot be locked down. -POS cannot camped. -POS is so much easier to get in/out (no undock screen, no undock timer). -POS can be depolyed in less than an hour and fraction of isk and resources. -POS can also hold ridiculous amount of cargo, if needed (10x hangars= 14,000,000 m^3). -POS can also manufacture all ships, ammo and modules you need (at least you cannot build titans there... right?) Noone cares if POS fuel last for only two weeks, or two months. They will pack it up, jump back to K-space, load fuel and find another system. Point is, POS in W-space need to be nerfed. Not just nerfed, but mega omg wtf nerfed. Example: -Only small POS allowed, and -Gun and POS HP reduced by half, and -Fuel consumption up by at least 400% (so few Iterions V of fuel will be enough to fuel it for few weeks, not a quarter of a year) -reinforce timer reduced to 12-24 hours maximum (POS in W-space ae not needed as space control mechanism, but as temporary safe heaven, thus long reinforce timers are not needed). Regarding bi-directioness of Wormholess, simply make wormholes discovered(triggered) from K-space bi directional, but wormholes that were discovered in W-Space only one directional. Or have 10 : 1 allowed mass ratio, if you really want. In fact, it's much better if you won't be able to scout your way back. Kills the annoying logistics issue for good and adds nice thrill of not knowing whether you will land in Delve, or middle of NC space, or in bloody Jita. Casual gamers will use same wormhole they came in to go back, but all the people who want claim W-Space system, will have it a bit more adventurous moving their newly acquired riches out:) And it should be doable, since wormholes use the same system exploration does (exploration site is created the moment it is discovered, not the moment it's signature is added to solar system). Poke Greyscale about it, I'm sue he will figure a way to implement it. PS. The amount of work you did in those past 6 weeks is truthfully impressive. The new SCRUM system really let you show the amount of skill CCP has.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:41:00 - [510] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Bellum Eternus Will you be able to use bubbles in w-space? Or HICs? Or dictors? How about bubbling one side of a wormhole? Or the other? Or both? All W-space is 0.0. That means all 0.0 things will be in that space. No Concord, Bubbles, Bombs, Doomsdays, no sec loss. **** yes! Has someone already asked about the end point for the wormhole? I assume that won't always be in the same place so it's not campable but does it move between one jump and another for the same wormhole to prevent camping of existing wormholes? EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:41:00 - [511] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Cailais Well lets consider one example. You open a K > W wormhole in Amarr, and jump in your POS and fuel (assuming for the moment the WH stays stable for this op. Now, your corp operates in this W-system for a while (your original WH has long since expired) but if you leave the chances of getting a WH back to Amarr are slim. In fact you may not even get a WH link back to Domain or, for that matter, High Sec. The chances are therefore you will end up with a re supply route that crosses Low sec or .0 quite possibly considerable portions of it. And every time you need to resupply your route will be different. Often you'll get lucky and it will be an easy hop to a suitable trade hub, often not. The time effort therefore to run the POS will be considerable. As WH's decay over time there isnt even a cast iron guaruntee that once youve opened one, (from W space) that you'll be able to travel to your source of fuel and get back to get through the WH. What if a WH is open only for a couple of minutes? "K guys the WH is open, it exits in 73-J...checking market..damn no fuel for 15 jumps...WH closing in 60 seconds..." C. You're essentially repeating what I said a couple pages back. I realize the resupply route is going to be different every time, but that's pretty irrelevant. High sec travel is safe, and Jump Drives let you shift a crap-ton of fuel to the target system in no time. The only factor to consider is how close you can get to the target system if its Cyno Jammed. Compare that to running a POS in the deep end of 0.0. For those refueling trips, you have to take the long and dangerous route EVERY TIME. With WH systems, you might get lucky a few times and end up in high sec. All you're doing is exchanging predictability for some luck potential. And lets not even forget that POS in WH systems are ten times less likely to get sieged. Your last assumption, that you can't reach the target system in time is unrealistic to say the least. If you have a loaded fuel ship/convoy ready to roll, the wormhole only needs to stay open for two hours. The point of all this is, you can say what you want about the process but the fact that its even possible to fuel POS on a regular basis means it will happen. Where does it say wormholes will stay open for 2 hours? Jump Drives aren't unlimited in their reach - you're probably going to need a cyno chain (plus fuel to complete the jump) assuming (and its a big assumption) you can safely jump into the destination system (and all systems en route) and potentially unload the jump ships POS fuel into ships that will 'fit' through the wormhole. Furthermore you're assuming that any W > K gate once found has the mass and time stability to allow your scout to leave the W system and get all your fuel back through that WH. Just consider for a moment the cost (jump fuel) and time (current convoy position relative to the WH) in keeping the POS functioning. Is the 'ninja raid' more cost effective in comparison? Which is more fun? Yes people will set up POSes, but from where Im standing its going to be a heck of an effort to do so. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:42:00 - [512] The talk of ammo usage brings up another possible idea for the 'roaming fleet'. Industry modules, *****ble on industrial/transport ships (also Orca and Rorqual, perhaps with bonuses). These could basically be assembly lines, and 'anchor' the ship just as the rorqual, making one or two assembly lines availble, and the smaller versions (those that fit on haulers) could basically be the same as an ammunition assembly array. (tech 1 ammo and drones). A ship such as this could actually work relatively autonomously in W-Space, mining some mins with a single Modulated Deep Core Miner II, and an Ammunition Assembly Core. This would probably produce a decent amount of ammo, enough to 'fuel' a small mobile fleet. Still, the advantage is given to the Amarr, as they have no need to bring along the mobile factory to begin with. System Influence
Williamat Centaurus Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:47:00 - [513] Originally by: Clansworth The talk of ammo usage brings up another possible idea for the 'roaming fleet'. Industry modules, ***ble on industrial/transport ships (also Orca and Rorqual, perhaps with bonuses). These could basically be assembly lines, and 'anchor' the ship just as the rorqual, making one or two assembly lines availble, and the smaller versions (those that fit on haulers) could basically be the same as an ammunition assembly array. (tech 1 ammo and drones). A ship such as this could actually work relatively autonomously in W-Space, mining some mins with a single Modulated Deep Core Miner II, and an Ammunition Assembly Core. This would probably produce a decent amount of ammo, enough to 'fuel' a small mobile fleet. Still, the advantage is given to the Amarr, as they have no need to bring along the mobile factory to begin with. *** is a bad word?!?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:50:00 - [514] Originally by: Levitikon What the hell, 17 pages and noone brought it up: THE DEATHSTAR POS IN W-SPACE NEED TO BE NERFED TO OBLIVION. they are so exploitable, it's not even funny. Small dyspro mining pos is fine, but that's not how POS will be used in W-space. Deathstar POS are balanced against fleets of hundred or more BS or dreadnought fleets. In environment without enormous Battleship fleets or dreads, POS will become absolutely untouchable, indestructible safe heavens of W-space. Few advantages of POS compared to player owned station (and I'm sure idea of player owned stations inside of W-Space seems unimaginable for you): -you always see what is outside. -POS cannot be locked down. -POS cannot camped. -POS is so much easier to get in/out (no undock screen, no undock timer). -POS can be depolyed in less than an hour and fraction of isk and resources. -POS can also hold ridiculous amount of cargo, if needed (10x hangars= 14,000,000 m^3). -POS can also manufacture all ships, ammo and modules you need (at least you cannot build titans there... right?) Noone cares if POS fuel last for only two weeks, or two months. They will pack it up, jump back to K-space, load fuel and find another system. Point is, POS in W-space need to be nerfed. Not just nerfed, but mega omg wtf nerfed. Example: -Only small POS allowed, and -Gun and POS HP reduced by half, and -Fuel consumption up by at least 400% (so few Iterions V of fuel will be enough to fuel it for few weeks, not a quarter of a year) -reinforce timer reduced to 12-24 hours maximum (POS in W-space ae not needed as space control mechanism, but as temporary safe heaven, thus long reinforce timers are not needed). Regarding bi-directioness of Wormholess, simply make wormholes discovered(triggered) from K-space bi directional, but wormholes that were discovered in W-Space only one directional. Or have 10 : 1 allowed mass ratio, if you really want. In fact, it's much better if you won't be able to scout your way back. Kills the annoying logistics issue for good and adds nice thrill of not knowing whether you will land in Delve, or middle of NC space, or in bloody Jita. Casual gamers will use same wormhole they came in to go back, but all the people who want claim W-Space system, will have it a bit more adventurous moving their newly acquired riches out:) And it should be doable, since wormholes use the same system exploration does (exploration site is created the moment it is discovered, not the moment it's signature is added to solar system). Poke Greyscale about it, I'm sue he will figure a way to implement it. PS. The amount of work you did in those past 6 weeks is truthfully impressive. The new SCRUM system really let you show the amount of skill CCP has. This. When major alliances bring their full weight to bear on w-space systems it's a done deal tbh. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:50:00 - [515] Originally by: Levitikon What the hell, 17 pages and noone brought it up: It has, several times. Originally by: Levitikon Regarding bi-directioness of Wormholess, simply make wormholes discovered(triggered) from K-space bi directional, but wormholes that were discovered in W-Space only one directional. Also been considered, unfortunately all it does is slow you down in the process of concentrating assets/players to one system. Instead of reverse exploring a path to empire and telling your friends on the other side where to go, you wait for some random chump to open one up. Since it was triggered from that side, it would be 2-way. You send a scout and tell your friends where to go. End result, nothing really changes. Regarding the whole deathstar problem.. deathstars consume way more fuel than smaller POS. Your choice would be to run one super safe and secure pos for a week or run 4 small for the same amount of time, or run 1 small for a month. The last two options mean your pos are slightly more vulnerable (or I should say someone might actually be able to kill one somehow), but also far more lucrative. In any case, once you run out of fuel you have to pack it up (assuming 1-way travel). Later in the year when they overhaul POS and sovereignty warfare, the actual anchoring and dismantling of POS should be more dangerous.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:53:00 - [516] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Bellum Eternus Will you be able to use bubbles in w-space? Or HICs? Or dictors? How about bubbling one side of a wormhole? Or the other? Or both? All W-space is 0.0. That means all 0.0 things will be in that space. No Concord, Bubbles, Bombs, Doomsdays, no sec loss. ** yes! Has someone already asked about the end point for the wormhole? I assume that won't always be in the same place so it's not campable but does it move between one jump and another for the same wormhole to prevent camping of existing wormholes? The wormholes entry/exit points are going to be random and changing. To that other guy. I promise you, if I can squeeze a titan through, I will sit there, cloak for days if it takes, wait for a bunch of pubbies to come in, and doomsday them to hell. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:54:00 - [517] Originally by: Bellum Eternus This. When major alliances bring their full weight to bear on w-space systems it's a done deal tbh. If they're bringing their full weight to bear on w-space, whose defending their .0 space? "Goons are attacking everyone back to EC!" "er...two minutes..just findin a worm hole..ah theres one - k 55 jumps out..." C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:58:00 - [518] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. That would limit the mass to under a million or so. 10 BS. Don't seem much for a hard system, especially if you are trying to wrest it from another corp that already own it. Wouldn't this limit create a "only 0.0 alliances can conquer a whormhole system" syndrome? They will be already advantaged in getting the best systems and then this would allow them to move much more material in to secure them than people starting in high sec.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:04:00 - [519] Originally by: Cailais Where does it say wormholes will stay open for 2 hours? Where does it say wormholes will only stay open for such a short period of time that nobody can even organize a gang big enough to fill the mass capacity in time? Originally by: Cailais Jump Drives aren't unlimited in their reach - you're probably going to need a cyno chain (plus fuel to complete the jump) assuming (and its a big assumption) you can safely jump into the destination system (and all systems en route) and potentially unload the jump ships POS fuel into ships that will 'fit' through the wormhole. And? What's the problem? Starting from some fairly central lowsec system in core empire means you can reach 75% of all space within 3 cyno jumps. "safely jump into destination system" is pretty funny. Carriers can fit cloaks and idle around until its safe to proceed. Originally by: Cailais Furthermore you're assuming that any W > K gate once found has the mass and time stability to allow your scout to leave the W system and get all your fuel back through that WH. No, you're assuming that the scout is the one who will get the fuel and fly back. At most he's going to be the final destination cyno, and other corp members, alts will head there with ships already on standby for such a task. Originally by: Cailais Just consider for a moment the cost (jump fuel) and time (current convoy position relative to the WH) in keeping the POS functioning. Is the 'ninja raid' more cost effective in comparison? Which is more fun? The cost of using Jump Drive? Are you serious? You could be harvesting Cadmium and still justify using a Carrier, Rorqual or Jump Freighter for logistics. And buddy, if you find a nice system - the ability to stay there and farm it with all the accommodations which POS provide (fittings, storage, safety, ammo, ships, refine, production) far outweighs constant raids and expeditions. Your farming characters never have to leave, just your Blockade Runners carrying loot for sale and even they can come back. Originally by: Cailais Yes people will set up POSes, but from where Im standing its going to be a heck of an effort to do so. C. Effort is relative. From my perspective, if you can keep them running its worth it by a wide margin. People already run POS deep in 0.0 on mediocre quality moons and do capital jumpdrive logistics to support it. Only now, you'll have to do those long trips part of the time - other times you'll be dropped right into high sec. I don't see this huge effort you are referring to, I could do it solo if I had two or three characters. Any small corp can do it.
Zamolxiss Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:06:00 - [520] Ola hombres y hombrinas.. y CCP This could have been so **in' cool... but it isn't At first it looked interesting, while i kept reading the blog and the replys it felt old and dissapointing, when i finished reading it, it became ing irritating.. This suffers from the exact same flawed design that the rest of eve's lawless space does.. it's the exact same thing, the same core concept, under a diferent form.. "Lets make some new space, with huge resources witch only huge entities can colonize, secure and then go chinese in it cause noone can do a thing about it" WTF CCP!? "We'll call it Unknow Space, you can't come and you can't go there when you want to, it's uncharted theritory, but has pos's, miners in belts, and the casual no life, ADHD dude that's probing 23/7 for warmholes to crash" are you ing tin' me!? This represents everything that's wrong and messed up with 0.0 space, the sov sistem, and the need to get togather in thousands and carebear in peace.. why the do you keep following the same failed design!? Distribution of resources CCP, it's idiotic, it makes for a farmable, stagnant, old game.. Why do you keep doing this ffs!? I never understood why the largest resources are located in the most unacessable and uncontestable space, and this is what you're doing again.. you create space, that can be secured and colonized by very large, very powerfull entities, and becomes virtualy uncontestable for the rest of EVE.. at what point did you stop and think "I got it, this is what EVE needs"?. Sounds familiar? well that's because it is, it what the whole 0.0 non npc space is.. In a game centred on the fight over more or less finite, conquerable resources.. the best resources should be in the most accesable and easily contestable space, witch is Low Sec in EVE, it's just common sense, it makes for lots of fights and the need to constantly perform. But no, you make it the other way around, and you're doing it again.. At the moment noone, except the largest entities, can make a claim on the highest resources areas in eve, cause it's ing imposible to even travel in anything other than an interceptor threw 0.0 most of the time.. nvm actualy contesting sistems for a random period of time.. from Period Basis to Tenal is the same **ing story, they don't need to fight for it, the don't need to do anything except watch intel channel for the casual dude roaming around that poses no real threat, 0.0 with current sov mechanics has become a paradise for carebears, and eve no longer rewards fighters, but numbers.. You are doing the exact same thing now, the wormhole sistem as you presented it, simply replaces the sov sistem.. in the end you get the same effect... GG CCP

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:10:00 - [521] I keep reading how the Alliances will conquer W-Space. But cant help thinking how folks are missing a fundamental aspect of this system. W-Systems, in essence move. Example: On Monday 'Widget' Alliance find a WH in Paragon Soul. Lets call it system 'A'. On Tuesday system 'A' links to Venal. On Wednesday it links to Cobalt Edge. On Thursday system 'A' links to Solitude. Sometimes those WH links are really pretty hard to find. Sometimes they have only a small mass capacity, or a limited timer. So, if you jump out into Venal on Tuesday, you've got to fly to Solitude to get back into that system on Thursday. All assuming the ship youve got can get there before the WH collapses, and kit fit through when it does. Oh, and once the WH is opened by your diligent Alt scout - you've got to hope nobody else finds it and exhausts it before you get there. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Daichi Ngaire	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:10:00 - [522] Originally by: Erakyn Originally by: Xennith you wanted a way to move drones from your cargobay to your dronebay, there it is. Sure the Orca is a great option (aside from the potential mass limitations on W-space) but what about solo exploration for drone pilots? What about people without Orca alts (shocking I know but they exist... some of us don't have Falcon alts either) or corps without Orcas? Why should drone pilots be forced to take an extra pilot and a 600 million ship into unexplored hostile space just to reload? It would also force the Orca pilot to be online whenever a drone pilot needs to reload. I just saying that I think there needs to be another option introduced (i.e. something like a mobile expedition platform to allow module/drone refitting requires anchoring 1). I've been thinking about this and this is my current train of thought assuming currently avalible ships: You need a wormhole that can handle at least two ships and at least one round trip. One should be the biggest industrial you can fly loaded with t2 cargo expanders and secure cans. The other should be your combat ship with your scanner fitted in a utility highslot...being Gallente specced I like drone ships for this because you can do some limited "refitting" just by deploying different drones, so a Vexor, Ishtar, Myrm or the like. Take the combat ship through first, bookmarking both ends of the wormhole. Find and make a good deep safespot, park the combat ship and eject. Fly pod back through wormhole, pick up industrial, send industrial through wormhole to safespot, unload and anchor the cans, make yourself comfortable. Yes, this is not particaurly elegant. I'd rather have some sort of mobile deployable platform too, one without the cost and bulk of a small control tower and ship maintinence array. However I believe at the same Fanfest where wormholes were announced there was talk of having small player structures not too unlike that, smaller versions of mobile labs and whatnot.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:12:00 - [523] Wow. Don't rage and post bro, this thread was being all decent and stuff. Your concern is valid, and there are quite a few other people hoping to see widescale colonization avoided. But your logic is broken, and you couldn't have come to the conclusion just by reading the dev blog. Without knowing how easy or difficult it will be to lock down a system, one would conclude this wormhole thing is probably the most open 0.0 space ever. Go and count the number of high sec links to 0.0 we have today if you don't believe me.
Levitikon Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:16:00 - [524] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Levitikon What the hell, 17 pages and noone brought it up: It has, several times. Originally by: Levitikon Regarding bi-directioness of Wormholess, simply make wormholes discovered(triggered) from K-space bi directional, but wormholes that were discovered in W-Space only one directional. Also been considered, unfortunately all it does is slow you down in the process of concentrating assets/players to one system. Instead of reverse exploring a path to empire and telling your friends on the other side where to go, you wait for some random chump to open one up. Since it was triggered from that side, it would be 2-way. You send a scout and tell your friends where to go. End result, nothing really changes. Regarding the whole deathstar problem.. deathstars consume way more fuel than smaller POS. Your choice would be to run one super safe and secure pos for a week or run 4 small for the same amount of time, or run 1 small for a month. The last two options mean your pos are slightly more vulnerable (or I should say someone might actually be able to kill one somehow), but also far more lucrative. In any case, once you run out of fuel you have to pack it up (assuming 1-way travel). Later in the year when they overhaul POS and sovereignty warfare, the actual anchoring and dismantling of POS should be more dangerous.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:17:00 - [525] Originally by: Daichi Ngaire ... Ooops. Drated backup computer. ----------------------- "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies."
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:18:00 - [526] I also keep hearing how alliances and players will conquer w-space, but the truth of the matter is... You'll be facing t3 ships. BIG Alliance: Yo, this wormhole lets in a mom! Stuff it up with battleships and let's go! <jumping through WH to other side> BIG Alliance: Whoa, it worked! Let's pwn the npc's! NPC Titan: We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:21:00 - [527] Originally by: Cailais I keep reading how the Alliances will conquer W-Space. But cant help thinking how folks are missing a fundamental aspect of this system. W-Systems, in essence move. Example: On Monday 'Widget' Alliance find a WH in Paragon Soul. Lets call it system 'A'. On Tuesday system 'A' links to Venal. On Wednesday it links to Cobalt Edge. On Thursday system 'A' links to Solitude. Sometimes those WH links are really pretty hard to find. Sometimes they have only a small mass capacity, or a limited timer. So, if you jump out into Venal on Tuesday, you've got to fly to Solitude to get back into that system on Thursday. All assuming the ship youve got can get there before the WH collapses, and kit fit through when it does. Oh, and once the WH is opened by your diligent Alt scout - you've got to hope nobody else finds it and exhausts it before you get there. C. Sigh. The fact that you can even get back is the problem, and the sole reason that WH space will end up spammed with POS just like Drone Regions. You overestimate the difficulty of getting to the target system for existing 0.0 veterans, you overestimate the speed at which it must be done and you completely overlook one important fact: The more time goes by, the more alliance assets are concentrated in a particular system. Unless you get podkilled, or you're part of a carrier logistics op, why would you have to move back and forth? Say you join an alliance that has an established and secured WH system. They want you to join. You could just go there in a fast ceptor and have battleships + ammo all waiting for you on site. Plus, you can't say these wormholes last for a short amount of time in one paragraph and then say its a serious issue if the wormhole you found can't be utilized in time (or is stolen). If they last for such a short time, it just increases the likelyhood you'll get a high sec link by waiting. I'm not saying all WH space will be colonized overnight, but all the good places will be taken, and the buildup of POS/people will keep rising to the point where this wormhole mechanic is just a neat travel feature. It should have broader implications than more space to colonize.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:23:00 - [528] Originally by: An Anarchyyt The wormholes entry/exit points are going to be random and changing. Doesn't answer the question. I asked whether the exit point in a system will just change for each new wormhole or whether it'll change with each jump through a single wormhole. As in, when I use a wormhole to jump into a system and someone follows me, do we both turn up at the same place? EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Darius Mirat	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:23:00 - [529] This is awesome. First referring to the Bookmark-Problem: Although i see the need of bookmarks when u are in such a system, there is no need for them outside. So there are some different solutions that come to my mind how to deal with the massiv flood of BMs to your database: - As soon as u leave the W-System all the bookmarks of this one get deleted or - No BMs inside W-Space allowed at all or - BMs last till the next Downtime If u leave it as intended at the moment, u will face 1000s of new BMs per character and the good old copy thing will start again. If ur database can handle that without problems ur fine, if not u should think about a solution. Second reffering to the Capitals in Empire: If u shrink the size of all Empire-heading Wormholes, the Empire-based Corps and Allys will have a significant drawback. They may just can't bring in the amount of ships needed to get everything inside the W-System. Instead you could ask CONCORD to solve this tiny problem for u. Whenever a Capital enters Empire-Spac through a Wormhole CONCORD appears and ... Third and most significant: "No W-Space on Sisi" Although i really want to play with the new T3-Ships on Sisi, u shouldn't introduce W-Space on Sisi, because this would take alot of the "exploring unknown space" feeling away on 10th March. Just give us the T3 ship-Modules so we can test this on Sisi but keep ur W-Space for the actual launch. I really hope you can keep it till then, although this might need extensive-player-testing. With best regards, Darius Mirat. PS: Since English isn't my native language, i appologize for all mistakes. No offence was intended at any point.
Levitikon Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:24:00 - [530] Edited by: Levitikon on 27/01/2009 01:25:08 One small request from PVP crow : Make sure that every W-space system always have at least one wormhole leading to other W-space system and that wormhole is reasonably easily findable. In other words: Let us "roam" the W-space. If you also added delayed local, that would be awesome. Even without it, just make sure that we can roam W-space and that W-systems won't become PvE instances with one, empire or friendly 0.0 based entrance.

Chiralos Epitoth Fleetyards	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:26:00 - [531] I think K-W and W-W wormholes should be two-way. Perhaps W-K wormholes should initially be two-way (but with some fiction published indicating that this may change), and changed to one-way if it looks like POS-steading in W-space is too easy. Also, I vote W-W wormholes should be mass but not time limited, because that opens up the possability for ... wormhold transit network. Now, if you're trying to get somewhere specific in W-space, there's only a 1/1000 chance (or however many W-systems there are) that a new W-W wormhold will hit it. But, if you could build yourself a network of eg 100 systems, you'd only have to wait for about 10 wormholes until you hit your network. People using the network would keep breaking the links, but once your network got big enough, you could keep adding connections as fast as they were being used up. Crazy idea, and an enormous amount of effort needed, but way cool. Hmmm, I wonder what the optimal strategy for building network would be ... and would it be too slow to get started to be practical ? (Goes off to look up graph theory results on average path lengths in random graphs ...) Amarr Victor.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:31:00 - [532] Originally by: Rex Lashar Where does it say wormholes will only stay open for such a short period of time that nobody can even organize a gang big enough to fill the mass capacity in time? Effort is relative. From my perspective, if you can keep them running its worth it by a wide margin. People already run POS deep in 0.0 on mediocre quality moons and do capital jumpdrive logistics to support it. Only now, you'll have to do those long trips part of the time - other times you'll be dropped right into high sec. I don't see this huge effort you are referring to, I could do it solo if I had two or three characters. Any small corp can do it. Sorry rex - edited your response there so its a bit shorter. I do agree with you, up to a point. Yes - there will be corps, both large and small, that operate a centralised convoy resupply such as the one you suggest. Some W-Systems will be secured and held. 0.0 Alliances have the best chance of doing so (they pretty much have the best chance of doing anything - numbers and team work count after all). BUT. Will there be 2500 such corps doing so? Remembering they can only really secure one system (not a regional area as can be achieved in .0) because the W-System to W-System links are not static. One day BOBs W-System might link to Empire, a couple of Lowsec systems and an empty W-System. The next day the adjoining W-System might be a Goonswarm stronghold. Strategically speaking W-Systems have strengths such as those mentioned by yourself, and by others. But they also have weaknesses. You can't determine with any certainty that your W-system will have assistance close to hand, it will most likely be isolated from your main fleet - unless that is kept somewhere central and at near permanent readiness. Equally we could argue that some degree of 'stability' IS needed, otherwise the cost of Tech III manufacture would be so offensively high that we (the players) will never get to see, or fly, any of those 3000 odd ship combinations I know Im loooking forward to. Conquest is not always a 'bad thing'. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
4134	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:41:00 - [533] the bigest problem i see, is that a pos requires a relitivly small amount of mass inorder to get one in, oposed the the amount of mass required to kill it. So basicaly, if you can handle the logistical nightmare of fuling a pos, then its prity much 100% safe. so it will just be a case of the eary bird gets the worm, and 3 months for now, all the good moons will be claimed, with little possibility of them changing hands.
James Razor Amarr FroZen SoulS Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:43:00 - [534] Well, about that stuck thing: did u guys forget that even a Mothership has an other FTL-Drive than the Jumpdrive? So, if u get stuck in a Wormhole system, why not simply WARP back? Ok, it would take u a hell of a time, but it is possible. Even if u would need one or 2 Days to come back, if your ship and/or cargo is worth a few billion, why not do it? Also u could modify the warpdrive to fit this sort of travel better. Could be some sort of last chance system to get out of wormhole-systems if u have no other choice than suicide. I hope CCP thinks a little about it. As every ship and even capsules have warp drives this could be a possibility. And if u need some hours or even days to come back to normal space it is for sure not an option for all, as a lot would better pod-jump back than do the trip. But especially for the ones who would like to use expensive ships like Capitals it could be an option to rescue the ship.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:46:00 - [535] Originally by: Rex Lashar I'm not saying all WH space will be colonized overnight, but all the good places will be taken, and the buildup of POS/people will keep rising to the point where this wormhole mechanic is just a neat travel feature. It should have broader implications than more space to colonize. Of course it will be colonized, this is EVE and that is a significant element of the game. But, and this in my view is crucial - it won't be colonized in 'blocks'. Say -AAA- enter W-Space. They set up shop in 4 adjoining W-Systems linked to their home regions. Those links (K-W, W-W) then collapse. Those -AAA- players have now inflicted (to all intents and purposes) a 'divide and conquer' upon themselves. They are no longer mutually supporting; as would occur in 0.0 space. At least not instantly. So instead of a 'power block' there is just a fragment, a colony as opposed to a nation. These colonies are now on their own little island - surrounded by? Well it could be anyone - a constantly shifting tapestry of potential allies and foes. Sure, there's likely to be massive rewards for those alliances that capture and hold W-systems. And risks, potentially massive risks. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Legarra	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:46:00 - [536] From the blog Quote: I head up Team Bifr÷st, which includes such luminaries as CCP Casqade from Quality Assurance "Luminaries" from QA.
Vorick Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:52:00 - [537] Why is everyone focusing on the "huge alliances" taking over W-space? Any decent sized corp could afford a single death-star, and since wormholes will be in empire, low sec, and 0.0 it'll be as easy for smaller corps/alliances to find wormholes as the huge alliances. And if a deathstar in 0.0 turns out to be almost impossible to kill, it'll be difficult for the big alliances as well. Their advantage is numbers, and if they can't take those numbers into W-space then they're on equal footing with everyone else. If there's a problem here (and that's a big if, we don't have many details yet) it's that POS in W-space are too difficult to take down, which is an advantage for small alliances/corps rather than large ones. A large alliance would have a much easier time fielding a fleet to attack/defend the POS if it gets reinforced, so making it difficult to reinforce the POS at all would just keep the larger alliances from dominating W-space by bullying smaller groups (though admitedly making it more of an early bird gets the worm situation, which isn't a good thing either). If cycling wormholes until you get one you want does turn out to be possible, I agree some method should be found to eliminate it (a respawn delay on wormholes, maybe, or just a mechanism to keep someone from using up all its mass allowance until it pops). If maintaining a POS is still too easy, then it might be best to look for ways to make logistics harder (increasing the chance of W-space <-> W-space connections, for example). But before people whine about wormholes only letting in a small gang, remember that it's a chance for corps and small alliances to dip their toes in 0.0 without being vulnerable to the blobs of larger alliances.
midge Mo'yb R.U.S.T.	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:56:00 - [538] if i was to discover a system, will i be able to calculate is position, and get a capital in range to jump in(if i can even light a cyno in there), or will these systems be forever uncharted? and will these systems be in range of a blackops bridge? -----------------------------------------------
Chiralos Epitoth Fleetyards	Posted - 2009.01.27 01:58:00 - [539] I wonder if there will be hidden structure to the W-W connections ? The game design relies on the randomness of wormhole targets, but can it deviate from uniform randomness in interesting ways without breaking ? EG Instead of uniform random choice of target for W-W hole, they could partition the W-systems into groups of 10 and have (say a 3-regular) graph on those groups, with wormhole targets being biased towards systems in the current and adjacent groups. Building up a map of the groups would be very valuable. Of course, if I were CCP I would change a the graph around a bit every month or so ... Amarr Victor.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:02:00 - [540] ok just looking at the raw stats its 45 trys to get a net 50% chance to get a given Wspace to connect to a specific region its 91 trys to get the odds up to ~75% its 149 trys to get the odds up to 90% and a whoping 199 trys to get the odds to 95% the problem remains however that in the mean time someone else can still pop in one of the other WGates into the Wspace your trying to use, and your fleet in the mean time is tied up with trying to relocate the Wspace you want to try to hold. I suspect it will be easyer to just run the system you find.

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:02:00 - [541] Originally by: Vorick Why is everyone focusing on the "huge alliances" taking over W-space? Any decent sized corp could afford a single death-star, and since wormholes will be in empire, low sec, and 0.0 it'll be as easy for smaller corps/alliances to find wormholes as the huge alliances. And if a deathstar in 0.0 turns out to be almost impossible to kill, it'll be difficult for the big alliances as well. Their advantage is numbers, and if they can't take those numbers into W-space then they're on equal footing with everyone else. If there's a problem here (and that's a big if, we don't have many details yet) it's that POS in W-space are too difficult to take down, which is an advantage for small alliances/corps rather than large ones. A large alliance would have a much easier time fielding a fleet to attack/defend the POS if it gets reinforced, so making it difficult to reinforce the POS at all would just keep the larger alliances from dominating W-space by bullying smaller groups (though admitedly making it more of an early bird gets the worm situation, which isn't a good thing either). If cycling wormholes until you get one you want does turn out to be possible, I agree some method should be found to eliminate it (a respawn delay on wormholes, maybe, or just a mechanism to keep someone from using up all its mass allowance until it pops). If maintaining a POS is still too easy, then it might be best to look for ways to make logistics harder (increasing the chance of W-space <-> W-space connections, for example). But before people whine about wormholes only letting in a small gang, remember that it's a chance for corps and small alliances to dip their toes in 0.0 without being vulnerable to the blobs of larger alliances. You're looking at it from the wrong perspective entirely. Large alliances won't give you an advantage as far as footprint is concerned in w-space, but it will allow a 24/7 response for logistics, and in a big fashion, for servicing wormhole links that are valid for your area of operation. (i.e. to w-space that you have a POS in) When you can bring a dozen carriers and another dozen jump freighters to a wormhole on a whim then yes, the scale of the group of players can have a big impact on how successful you are in exploiting wormholes.
Vorick Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:08:00 - [542] Edited by: Vorick on 27/01/2009 02:09:39 Edited by: Vorick on 27/01/2009 02:08:19 But given that the 0.0 wormholes will mostly be going to 0.0 wormhole systems, that would just mean 0.0 alliances are competiting with each other. And no matter how many jump freighters and members the alliances have, they're going to have harder logistics then those colonizing systems whose wormholes normally link to empire. Not only is fuel easier to obtain in empire, but even the largest alliances only have access to perhaps 30% of 0.0, while the smallest corp has access to nearly 100% of empire.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:17:00 - [543] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Large alliances won't give you an advantage as far as footprint is concerned in w-space, but it will allow a 24/7 response for logistics, and in a big fashion, for servicing wormhole links that are valid for your area of operation. (i.e. to w-space that you have a POS in) When you can bring a dozen carriers and another dozen jump freighters to a wormhole on a whim then yes, the scale of the group of players can have a big impact on how successful you are in exploiting wormholes. Speaking as a "big alliance". What part of our other operations are we going to gimp to do this?
Matting NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:17:00 - [544] As a -5 player I really hope this helps low sec a little with more people looking around for these. My main worry is after jumping through wormholes I will find myself in high sec getting attacked by the faction police. This could fixed by w-k being the k-w security space or lower. This also would help those 0.0 mission runners who have neg standing to most of the factions and would prefer not to be dropped there. So finding a site in high sec puts an exit in low-sec or high sec, low sec sites go to low-sec or 0.0 and 0.0 sites only exit to other 0.0 space. I think putting high sec players in to 0.0 space would be bad as they won't like the idea of the wormhole being 0.0 let alone being dropped in some random 0.0 controlled space at the end. Not sure if this is suitable but there are already enough restrictions on being a "pirate" (-5). As a side benefit this would also stop capitals from going in to high sec at an exit.
Protheroe	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:23:00 - [545] Edited by: Protheroe on 27/01/2009 02:23:36 Will some W-Systems have a lower likelihood of forming connections to the outside world than others, and will some W-Systems only be accessible through/more likely to be connected to other W-Systems? Or will all W-Systems have an equal chance of being connected to known space? I think it would add more to the frontier aspect if certain systems were always "deeper" than others, and yet others which rarely formed wormholes to the outside world. Then there would be the explorer's most prized systems - the scracely travelled ones which are both deep and rarely accessible. The deeper and less frequently connected the system, the more difficult it would be to get back, and the better the stuff that would be available there (rarer items and much larger untouched resource deposits).
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:25:00 - [546] Clansworth's Ideal W-Space Survey Probes: Can be shot through a discovered wormhole to provide information pertaining to the wormhole itself, and the system on the other side. This is how you obtain information on the Size/Stability of the Wormhole. It also provides celestial informatin on the system on the other side. Wormhole Size/Stability: Size determines the max 'size' (in m¦) that can traverse the wormhole. Stability determines how much Mass(kg) can traverse the wormhole. Stability has a natural decay, so this puts a limeted lifetime on the wormhole, if left unused. W-Space Combat Mechanics: 0.0. No Rules. Bubbles can be placed. No inherent ship restrictions, though obviously the larger wormholes would be rare. W-Space Navigation: The Concept of not being able to tell where you are in the galaxy is a bit obsurd at New Eden's technology level. Even visual cues on star location would be enough to calculate an approximate position. There should definately still be a 'You Are Here' on the Galactic Map. That being said, there are some other quirks. The same phenomenon that prevented the old empires from building stargates to these lone wolf systems, makes it difficult for jump drives to lock onto. A Basic Cynosaural field is too unstable in these systems, and cannot function. However, the tighter tolerances of the Covert Cynosaural Field CAN be generated, though the added calculations needed to keep the field stable negate the Covert aspects of the field, making it visible on the map/system overview. W-Space Logistics: Because of the disconnect with K-Space, POS Logistics would of course be more difficult. That being said, it is certainly not impossible. My largest concern is the ability to bring fuel in via Blockade Runners. To combat this potenital 'easy road', the systems themselves should be nomadic in nature. That meaning that they shift throughout the new eden galaxy. This is the reasoning for the impaired jump capabilities, and the inability to build stargates to them. Blockade Runners would remain the key support craft for fueling your W-Space 'empire', but you would only have certain 'windows' of oppurtunity to make such jumps. There would be large periods of time where the 'colonized' system is simply out of range of any K-Space systems to jump from. Other times, it would be within range of only histile 0.0. Just based on the spread of system concentrations in New Eden, more often than not, the W-Space system will not be within any jump range of empire space. This would mean you would need to get enough supplies in during the 'light-side' periods to last you through an indeterminate 'dark-side' time.
Levitikon Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:29:00 - [547] Okay, but size of fleets in W-space will be limited by characteristics of W-space itself. You goon might want to squeeze 220 in one system, since it's so goooney, but it doesn't change the fact that system themselves will effectively limit you to 20-40 people in same location. That makes POS in their current K-world implementation just untouchable, where the role of POS in W-space should be totally different to the role they play in K-space. In stead of being sov claiming behemoths and markers of ultimate dominance, they should be points of conflicts, the war chests luring your enemies to attack you. In K-space, the orle is exactly opposite - to drive away, scare away, or just kill anyone who can endanger your local dominance. Mow, final solution: Current poses and POS guns banned from being used in W-space (either with contraband mechanism, or simple "cannot deploy here used with doomsdays bubbles in hisec.) So far, easy. Add new sucking POS (small pos with dmg, hp, and reinforce nerfed 50%), those poses can still: -manufacture anything you needed (ship, ammo!) -refitting -spare ships storage -provide safe idling point for alliance mates -up to 14,000,000 cargo space for loot -temporary safe heaven You can see, they're just invaluable for small medium force living there. But, they can be reinforced easily by roaming pos killers group, with all the ships and hangar contents ending in victor hands (huge war chest, worth fighting for). Attackers will bother with attacking, defenders will most certainly show in full force to defend. None of the sides can blob due to mechanics of W-space. Large loses and large winnings guaranteed, no matter who wins. Also, meaningful resolution - they either get booted form system, or keep the system. Most importantly though, countless small pvp corporations and alliances, will matter again. They won't be insignificant and the ones that were already forced into joining big alliances, will be allowed to become significant. To sum up: Easy "roaming" via 0.0's 0.0 W-space. Much more difficult "roaming" through lowsec and empire's 0.0 W-space, traveling more based on trips in K-space. POS as primary logistical, not military structures. Becoming the war chests of W-space Organized Warfare. Easy to kill/defend, but always decisive outcome. They provide services essential for long term occupancy of a system, but act like honey pot for conflict. Set one up, if you're prepared to defend it. Not to have it defend you. To sum the sum up: the perfect 0.0 warfare of our dreams.
Ma Eies	Posted - 2009.01.27 02:34:00 - [548] I think this is a case of less being more right now 3 variables about wormholes are enough for now, Mass time and location they could always add new things to change the dynamic later such as removing the time variable and making mass decay instead or any one of the decent suggestions in the comments
August Guns Minmatar Infinite ISK.	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:01:00 - [549] Originally by: Clansworth Clansworth's Ideal W-Space W-Space Navigation: The Concept of not being able to tell where you are in the galaxy is a bit obsurd at New Eden's technology level. Even visual cues on star location would be enough to calculate an approximate position. There should definately still be a 'You Are Here' on the Galactic Map. That being said, there are some other quirks. The same phenomenon that prevented the old empires from building stargates to these lone wolf systems, makes it difficult for jump drives to lock onto. A Basic Cynosaural field is too unstable in these systems, and cannot function. However, the tighter tolerances of the Covert Cynosaural Field CAN be generated, though the added calculations needed to keep the field stable negate the Covert aspects of the field, making it visible on the map/system overview. You're assuming that the new systems are within the known galaxy. They might be, or they could be in many distant galaxies.
Sakura Sarashi	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:09:00 - [550] Edited by: Sakura Sarashi on 27/01/2009 03:11:35 Originally by: August Guns Originally by: Clansworth Clansworth's Ideal W-Space W-Space Navigation: The Concept of not being able to tell where you are in the galaxy is a bit obsurd at New Eden's technology level. Even visual cues on star location would be enough to calculate an approximate position. There should definately still be a 'You Are Here' on the Galactic Map. That being said, there are some other quirks. The same phenomenon that prevented the old empires from building stargates to these lone wolf systems, makes it difficult for jump drives to lock onto. A Basic Cynosaural field is too unstable in these systems, and cannot function. However, the tighter tolerances of the Covert Cynosaural Field CAN be generated, though the added calculations needed to keep the field stable negate the Covert aspects of the field, making it visible on the map/system overview. You're assuming that the new systems are within the known galaxy. They might be, or they could be in many distant galaxies. starts humming the theme to Ulysse 31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4c1X5ene8

Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:16:00 - [551] Let's say I find a wormhole and my corp's gang enter this new system. What's to stop me from scanning out all the wormholes in that system leading to other systems (essentially all the entrypoints to the system) and collapsing them? All it would require is to fly a ship back and forth through the wormhole until it collapses and with careful selection of the ship used you could make it so that the final "collapsing" trip is a trip back into the wormhole system. With regular effort to collapse entrances, could this not be used to lock down a wormhole system? EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Mezikk Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:28:00 - [552] if the scanner became realtime it would be great. hammering the scan button is such a mindless task
Van Soll	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:32:00 - [553] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 27/01/2009 03:19:28 Let's say I find a wormhole and my corp's gang enter this new system. What's to stop me from scanning out all the wormholes in that system leading to other systems (essentially all the entrypoints to the system) and collapsing them? All it would require is to fly a ship back and forth through each wormhole found until it collapses. With careful selection of the ship used, you will always use a ship with enough mass to make just enough trips to collapse the wormhole while ensuring that the final "collapsing" trip is a trip back into the wormhole system. With regular effort to collapse entrances, could this not be used to lock down a wormhole system? Well nothing really. However, everytime you close a wormhole another one opens to replace it, so you'll just be endlessly closing wormholes.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:42:00 - [554] eh Lets be realistic. the Wspace is bascialy lower than 0.0 space. because each Wspace system will aparently have multiple random wormholes to get to it from various random security levels I suspect that most empire explorers/mission runners will defacto ignore them while 0.0 mission runners will do them. the only "fix" to that would be to segregate the wormholes by what security region they link to. but I doubt they will do that.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:46:00 - [555] Originally by: Cailais Will there be 2500 such corps doing so? Remembering they can only really secure one system (not a regional area as can be achieved in .0) because the W-System to W-System links are not static. I already said that its unlikely. But if even 5% gets locked down, you can bet it will start with the best systems and moons first, moving downward. Originally by: Cailais Equally we could argue that some degree of 'stability' IS needed, otherwise the cost of Tech III manufacture would be so offensively high that we (the players) will never get to see, or fly, any of those 3000 odd ship combinations I know Im loooking forward to. Market stability doesn't inherently mean a low price. It means supply and demand reach an equilibrium point. The final price will be whatever players are willing to pay for the effort. And if you want to argue in the name of markets, keeping the space neutral and uncontrolled ensures more entities have a slice of the t3 resource pie. When that happens, market competition drives prices down. My argument against colonization and conquest makes more sense in favor of free markets than the reverse. Originally by: Cailais Conquest is not always a 'bad thing'. Not always a 'good thing' either. When many players are looking for something new, and the stated goal of this entire venture is to provide true exploration... why settle for more of the same? It makes no sense to put in a whole bunch of new mechanics just to make the same experience. I'm pro territorial wars and conquest, and I even lobbied for more control tools during Castor and Exodus. But now that it exists, there's no reason to insist everything work that way. This is neither the time, nor the space for that. Originally by: Cailais Of course it will be colonized, this is EVE and that is a significant element of the game. But, and this in my view is crucial - it won't be colonized in 'blocks'. I'm aware of that difference, but its not relevant. You seem to think it means something, when it really doesn't. Originally by: Cailais So instead of a 'power block' there is just a fragment, a colony as opposed to a nation. These colonies are now on their own little island - surrounded by? Well it could be anyone - a constantly shifting tapestry of potential allies and foes. Actually, it doesn't marginalize alliances as much as you think. Say a system supports 100 people before they're tripping over each other. A 500 man alliance splits itself to controlling several systems. So while they don't really interact or depend on each other on a daily basis, their industry and logistics gains efficiency. And if one of the systems is threatened by some concentrated effort, pilots who live elsewhere can shift over to help with defense. It may take time, but the end result is the same as telling your alliance to relocate to a new front line. Neither will get you instant action/results. Alliances being 'splintered' into smaller groups by the functional limits of each system/constellation/region already happens today. That doesn't really mean anything. Being part of a bigger whole is still beneficial for defense. And even without serious benefits, there are no serious drawbacks. I want to better articulate my stance about persistent sustainability in WH space: - The experience might be new at the start, but it will gravitate towards the typical 0.0 stuff in the long run. If this is going to be EVE's frontier, its a lot of effort being spent only to watch it disappear. What then? Do they introduce Jove space? What happens when that is colonized? - We already have conquest and colonization, and it needs a serious overhaul. Why would we want more of the same, if what we have now has some of the largest problems in all of EVE? - Once colonized, the fun for individuals drops like a rock. Only the perpetual war between large groups for crappy reasons can provide challenge and entertainment after that.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:48:00 - [556] Originally by: Van Soll Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 27/01/2009 03:19:28 Let's say I find a wormhole and my corp's gang enter this new system. What's to stop me from scanning out all the wormholes in that system leading to other systems (essentially all the entrypoints to the system) and collapsing them? All it would require is to fly a ship back and forth through each wormhole found until it collapses. With careful selection of the ship used, you will always use a ship with enough mass to make just enough trips to collapse the wormhole while ensuring that the final "collapsing" trip is a trip back into the wormhole system. With regular effort to collapse entrances, could this not be used to lock down a wormhole system? Well nothing really. However, everytime you close a wormhole another one opens to replace it, so you'll just be endlessly closing wormholes. The trick is to just leave a wormhole open that is advantageous to your crew, and kill anything else off that pops up. Once you ensure that the latest wormhole is in 0.0, pop a bubble on it to defend it, put a few scouts on it and you're done. This is assuming there is only one wormhole active in a system at a time. I'm hoping there will be multiple wormholes active for any given w-space area.
Deltronious Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:52:00 - [557] Seems wormholes take you to other galaxys ie. milky way galaxy to andromeda galaxy, with no possibility to return apart from a wormhole Jump drives and warp drives can take you inter-stellar, or inter-planetary, but the idea of using such a jump drive to travel between galaxys must be impossible even in sci-fi world. Perhaps some clarification on this by a dev would silence the "can I cyno in and out" questions
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.01.27 03:56:00 - [558] Originally by: Clansworth Clansworth's Ideal W-Space Survey Probes: Can be shot through a discovered wormhole to provide information pertaining to the wormhole itself, and the system on the other side. This is how you obtain information on the Size/Stability of the Wormhole. It also provides celestial informatin on the system on the other side. Interesting idea. I want to add to that the following what the probe provides: -Celestial information mentioned by clansworth to include, planets, moons and belts, ore types in belts. -NPC rat information, including their damage type and resistances, and any other effects. webs, target painters, points, ecm -Players in space: Present or Not Present.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:07:00 - [559] Well, after reading through all 15 pages that spawned since my post before bed last night, I think people establishing a permanent presence in W systems is the biggest issue that CCP needs to address. It's exploration - going off and getting lost, finding and loosing vast riches, and when you do find your way back, being in the ass end of nowhere with locals that hate you. It's not supposed to 0.0 with a slightly different spin but with the same old take-hold-farm mentality. I do think it's important, however, that players who want to establish a short-term operation be able to do so, so here's what I propose to prevent deathstars from popping up everywhere... OK, CCP has told us these new systems will have smart rats off a new type. I'll speculate that it's either an alien race of some sort or a new strain of rogue drones but it really doesn't matter. They live there, it's their space, and they don't take kindly to people throwing up a POS in their space. So when a POS comes online, every hour a wave of rats will attack it. Initially it'll be small and easily dealt with by the POS guns - maybe five cruisers. After a day, it'll be six cruisers and a BS, every hour. Each day the wave strength will increase by one cruiser and one BS, until after the seventh day dreads will start spawning, until the fleet reaches its maximum size after two weeks or so. After the eighth or ninth day it will be completely impossible to hold a large POS unless the guns are manned 23/7 and a defense fleet is permanently stationed around it. In order to prevent this from being exploited by simply unanchoring / reanchoriing the tower, the rats would not go out of 'rage mode' until all anchorable structures are removed / destroyed, at which point all new wormholes in the system would temporarily become one-way and only point to other W systems. It would sit in this GTFO state for a week or so, then all remaining characters would be ejected from the system regardless into random W and K systems and everything goes back to normal. Why go to all this trouble? Well, the way I see it a group exploration op will likely work in one of two ways.. Expeditionary Method: An Orca loads up with a small POS and a small fleet heads off into W space. The Orca sets up the POS as a temporary safe / loot storage location, which allows the fleet to operate for a few days in the system without having to coordinate everyone always being logged on at the same time else get left behind. After the operation concludes, everyone packs up, the POS is abandoned or scooped (depending on how much loot there is and how much it's worth) and everyone goes home, or on to another W system. This setup would likely work best with a conventional fleet. Gypsy Method: An Orca loads up with ammo and other consumable supplies, as well as a cloak (since we don't know how smart the rats are, best not take any chances), it and it's supporting fleet head off into W space. They all stay together, likely for only one day but can be longer if it's well coordinated. The Orca holds on to the loot and keeps a couple of extra ships in case things go horribly wrong, and when the hold is full or they're done regardless they head back. This setup would likely work best with recon / blackops fleets since there's a much higher chance they might have to navigate back to empire from 0.0 than the above method, as an expeditionary group can simply spam the W-K bridges as has been described elsewhere until they get one they like.
Patty Loveless Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:23:00 - [560] Hold back a bit... Quote: Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions Please don't make exploring into some Hello Kitty Easy mode hoopla. It should be hard if not damn near impossible to always get that perfect mid point bookmark to get full coverage for scanning. The idea of wormholes is cool, don't get me wrong, but just watch out that you don't kill an entire industry that prides itself on the ninja ways of placing the perfect probes to get the signature found. Exploring is one of the few things left that isn't easy mode (PVE stuff strictly, I'm not trying to say pvp is easy mode) It takes skill, and not just the kind you right click and a wait a couple hours for. The kind you have to learn, and hone yourself.

OMG ItsATrap	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:27:00 - [561] Originally by: Mezikk if the scanner became realtime it would be great. hammering the scan button is such a mindless task /signed 500 times... and get rid of local while you are at it...
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:36:00 - [562] Originally by: Kessiaan Well, after reading through all 15 pages that spawned since my post before bed last night, I think people establishing a permanent presence in W systems is the biggest issue that CCP needs to address. I don't agree because I don't think any space should be the wild west forever. You can't send out hundreds and hundreds of Santa Marias, but never send a Mayflower. I don't mind at all whether a corp or an alliance can set up a pos to be sustainable, within the mechanical reasons already proposed. Maybe not a death star pos, because the mass limitations on the worm hole would effectively prevent too big ships to go through. When the changes hit TQ I would like my main's corp to be able to exploit the resources there, grow richer, and then develop in "the civilized world" of K-Space. W-Space may be the key to unhinging the stale power structures of K-Space today. By just making it accessible for explorers, you're requesting that it will become unutilized. Sure, the first month will see lots of people popping into w-space, but when the newness of the thing wears off if you don't have the possibility of building an infrastructure in w-space the pirates and the carebears and the pvp'ers will migrate back to areas where there are likely targets - and w-space will become like lowsec, empty. It will become even worse than lowsec because the rewards will not outweigh the risks. --- Why are you reading my sig? Did you expect something of sigs?
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:39:00 - [563] My two cents. People are complaing about DS on possible good moons and stuff. But what you lot are forgeting is that in order to keep a DS fueled you;'ll have to make sure you use the WH's every few weeks. And lets say your pos starts crying, so you go to fuel, but when your gone, another group happens to wonder in and your WH collapses. They could then start shooting the pos, esp if you have no one to defend. or even if you have people whos to say your pos will have enough fuel to actually last? POS, in W-space are just as suseptable to attack as they are in 0.0. A group could bring in 10 BS' and happen to catch you when your not on line. Or when you in another area. No one to control the guns, your pos will fall. Honestly, my opinion is people will still find a way to hold a system if they want. And if there are rare moons in w-space, that is if any moons are even mineable, then the ammount of time to even setup and fuel a DS might not be worth it. Just wait and see what happens. I for one want to claim a W system, and i'm crazy enough to do it =D This will be good in alot of ways as it will bring back small gang warefare and allow smaller corps and alliances a chance into 0.0. As has been said before, the big alliances will have to chose if risking there space they have now is worth sending in some people into W space. Odds are the answer will be no. A few systems might be grabbed but if you have 200 people trapped it will mean your other space will prolly start to fold.
Deltronious Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:44:00 - [564] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: Clansworth Clansworth's Ideal W-Space Survey Probes: Can be shot through a discovered wormhole to provide information pertaining to the wormhole itself, and the system on the other side. This is how you obtain information on the Size/Stability of the Wormhole. It also provides celestial informatin on the system on the other side. Interesting idea. I want to add to that the following what the probe provides: -Celestial information mentioned by clansworth to include, planets, moons and belts, ore types in belts. -NPC rat information, including their damage type and resistances, and any other effects. webs, target painters, points, ecm -Players in space: Present or Not Present. I don't agree that you should be able to launch a probe through a wormhole. - Makes it all a little too carebear. And to receive information on the above makes it all too easy. Devs have already said they're going to revise the AI on npcs to make them more clever. What you're suggesting makes it too easy. I want to see a lot of people jumping in, (myself included) and finding something so difficult that they get warp scrambled and die just like a real gang would. Something that you have to take a decent fleet into, logistics ships, ewar etc. Don't make wormhole space predictable in any way.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:48:00 - [565] Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: Kessiaan Well, after reading through all 15 pages that spawned since my post before bed last night, I think people establishing a permanent presence in W systems is the biggest issue that CCP needs to address. I don't agree because I don't think any space should be the wild west forever. You can't send out hundreds and hundreds of Santa Marias, but never send a Mayflower. I don't mind at all whether a corp or an alliance can set up a pos to be sustainable, within the mechanical reasons already proposed. Maybe not a death star pos, because the mass limitations on the worm hole would effectively prevent too big ships to go through. When the changes hit TQ I would like my main's corp to be able to exploit the resources there, grow richer, and then develop in "the civilized world" of K-Space. W-Space may be the key to unhinging the stale power structures of K-Space today. By just making it accessible for explorers, you're requesting that it will become unutilized. Sure, the first month will see lots of people popping into w-space, but when the newness of the thing wears off if you don't have the possibility of building an infrastructure in w-space the pirates and the carebears and the pvp'ers will migrate back to areas where there are likely targets - and w-space will become like lowsec, empty. It will become even worse than lowsec because the rewards will not outweigh the risks. i agree here. more then likly you won;t hold w space forever, but use it as a lunching off plat fourm.. but who knows
Halostorm	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:50:00 - [566] Will wormholes have a sufficient mass allowance to bring capital ships through? Will something be put in place to stop them from entering high sec?
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:51:00 - [567] Originally by: DaReaper I for one want to claim a W system, and i'm crazy enough to do it =D Well, to be honest I think being able to live out of a W system would be awesome too, but that would have it's own set of challenges. The biggest one being that once a POS reaches a certain level of defense, it's completely invulnerable given the mechanics as described. You can't jump dreads in, you can't get enough BS into the system to take it down, etc. (read up a few pages for a more in-depth discussion). And the second issue is the wormholes themselves, which I'm sure will be bubbled up and camped to hell and back - at least the ones back to any reasonably populous K-space where it's likely to be found. Given a long enough time frame (after most W systems have been settled by some corp or another) it may actually prove to a huge disincentive for Empire explorers if they know that any wormhole they find should be treated just like a gate into regular 0.0. Basically, I want it to be balanced - either don't allow long-term presence in any particular W system or find some way to make it so you're not invulnerable once you're set up (I think the current mechanics as described would make it difficult, if not impossible, for the big 0.0 power blocs to be able to bring a massive defense to bear quickly in any particular W-system so in that sense it's OK). This is a great idea on paper to expand the EvE universe with something totally new, but if in practice it ends up being NPC sov 0.0 with wonky, pseudo-random stargates it'll be a huge fail in the long run.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:59:00 - [568] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 27/01/2009 05:00:42 Originally by: Kessiaan The biggest one being that once a POS reaches a certain level of defense, it's completely invulnerable given the mechanics as described. You can't jump dreads in, you can't get enough BS into the system to take it down, etc. (read up a few pages for a more in-depth discussion). Yes, I know the main problem with this right here but I'm saying it anyway. 1.) Kite POS guns till no ammo. 2.) Get Amarr BS 3.) Shoot and go to bed. 4.) Wake up to dead/reinforced/whatever pos. Plan 2: 1.) Find POS 2.) Take control of wormholes in system 3.) Prevent POS from being fueled. 4.) Shoot offline POS
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:00:00 - [569] Originally by: Kessiaan Originally by: DaReaper I for one want to claim a W system, and i'm crazy enough to do it =D Well, to be honest I think being able to live out of a W system would be awesome too, but that would have it's own set of challenges. The biggest one being that once a POS reaches a certain level of defense, it's completely invulnerable given the mechanics as described. You can't jump dreads in, you can't get enough BS into the system to take it down, etc. (read up a few pages for a more in-depth discussion). And the second issue is the wormholes themselves, which I'm sure will be bubbled up and camped to hell and back - at least the ones back to any reasonably populous K-space where it's likely to be found. Given a long enough time frame (after most W systems have been settled by some corp or another) it may actually prove to a huge disincentive for Empire explorers if they know that any wormhole they find should be treated just like a gate into regular 0.0. Basically, I want it to be balanced - either don't allow long-term presence in any particular W system or find some way to make it so you're not invulnerable once you're set up (I think the current mechanics as described would make it difficult, if not impossible, for the big 0.0 power blocs to be able to bring a massive defense to bear quickly in any particular W-system so in that sense it's OK). This is a great idea on paper to expand the EvE universe with something totally new, but if in practice it ends up being NPC sov 0.0 with wonky, pseudo-random stargates it'll be a huge fail in the long run. except that if the gates move int he system then it will be a little hard to actually camp, as you'd have to keep moving your camp around. Maybe make some of the systems unclaimable? who knows. i still want to dorp a pos and live there. as long as i can do that even with a small and just still be able to get ammo and stuff i'll be happy
Zex Maxwell Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:04:00 - [570] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. Yea it sounds like a good idea. But now that i know this. All i need to do to find a way home, is look for a wormhole thats smaller then that amount.

An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:05:00 - [571] Originally by: Zex Maxwell Yea it sounds like a good idea. But now that i know this. All i need to do to find a way home, is look for a wormhole thats smaller then that amount. I don't see how that means all non-highsec sites will be bigger than that.
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:07:00 - [572] Originally by: DaReaper i agree here. more then likly you won;t hold w space forever, but use it as a lunching off plat fourm.. but who knows True. What would be bad for the game would be easy mode for either the settlers of the w-systems, or the attackers of settled w-systems. There should be a possibility to build up an infrastructure in one, but it should be difficult. It should be possible to "conquer" a w-system from someone else, but it should be difficult. If that balance is reached, I'm happy, because if my main's corp can't defend that system then we don't deserve that system. Otoh, I don't want it to be like that the first tom that wanders in with his Kestrel should be given free rein to pew and kill with impunity.
Syrian FC Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:13:00 - [573] The wormhole system, as i see it: 1. Many hours of gameplay required. 2. Hard to get in. 3. Severe difficulties to "patrol" or "roam" through systems. 4. Highly profitable, at least at the very starting ("i want T3 at all cost!"). 5. 2k new unsettled systems! Who`s mostly interested in that thing? Right, "stealth Ravens" ISK farmers - at the first place. They play plenty of time, dont like to be bothered by roamings, and can only live in mostly abandoned systems. The new expansions serves well to all this. So... is this what you really plan to do, CCP?
ashellia	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:14:00 - [574] well, wormholes sounds fun... and more ppl will fly amarr i assume, no ammo = less logistic problem >.>
rantuket Caldari legion industries ltd	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:25:00 - [575] Any expansion to the game is welcome. To the people complaining about new features before they are explained in depth, give it a rest! The potential for a whole new line of skills/items/ships is great too. There will probably be something down the track to make a wormhole last longer structure/ship that might make the area semi-stable and available for a bit longer. It will also be a nice change from gate camping - wait for it - wormhole camping! CCP keep on coming with the new features.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:36:00 - [576] Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: Kessiaan Well, after reading through all 15 pages that spawned since my post before bed last night, I think people establishing a permanent presence in W systems is the biggest issue that CCP needs to address. I don't agree because I don't think any space should be the wild west forever. You can't send out hundreds and hundreds of Santa Marias, but never send a Mayflower. If we're not going adding this for the different gameplay experience and challenge it would provide, then pray tell.. why exactly are we adding 46% more systems to EVE when two thirds of all players live in one third of all existing space. Adding more room to conquer and colonize also marginalizes the whole idea of resource competition even further, in an era where the majority of all alliance warfare is done for **s and giggles. Originally by:** Demeterus I don't mind at all whether a corp or an alliance can set up a pos to be sustainable, within the mechanical reasons already proposed. Maybe not a death star pos, because the mass limitations on the worm hole would effectively prevent too big ships to go through. When the changes hit TQ I would like my main's corp to be able to exploit the resources there, grow richer, and then develop in "the civilized world" of K-Space. W-Space may be the key to unhinging the stale power structures of K-Space today. By just making it accessible for explorers, you're requesting that it will become unutilized. Sure, the first month will see lots of people popping into w-space, but when the newness of the thing wears off if you don't have the possibility of building an infrastructure in w-space the pirates and the carebears and the pvp'ers will migrate back to areas where there are likely targets - and w-space will become like lowsec, empty. It will become even worse than lowsec because the rewards will not outweigh the risks. You make flawed assumptions: 1. Infrastructure is necessary for proper utilization. 2. Unsustainable gameplay means having no infrastructure. No one is saying you can't deploy POS, build, refine and research in WH space. But the fact that you can't reliably return to the same place would mean there's a time limit on your stay, and an upper limit to how many POS you can run. It's already been confirmed that there will be ice. So really, it comes down to trade goods and nothing else - assuming 1 way travel gets implemented. If you were a small group trying to set up shop and stay for a long time, what prevents you from going through with a bunch of indies carrying POS equip, trade goods with 1 ship to mine ice/ore? You maximize for the trade consumables you can't get locally, and produce everything else (blueprints are easier to send through than fleets). With the current numbers they're throwing around, you can apparently send 100 cruisers through. How many indies is that? How long would a corp last with that much trade pos fuel and one tower? A year? In the event that you plan for it, the amount of time you can stay out there on a SINGLE expedition is incredible. In the end, that won't be the limiting factor even IF 1-way travel is imposed. You know what will be? Manpower and the amount of storage/loot the group can carry back to empire. Just having to pack up and leave eventually ensures that POS don't build up and good systems/moons don't get locked down forever.
Pringlescan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:47:00 - [577] Has anyone asked when we can expect to be able to test things out on sisi?
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:48:00 - [578] Edited by: DaReaper on 27/01/2009 05:48:06 Originally by: Rex Lashar You make flawed assumptions: 1. Infrastructure is necessary for proper utilization. 2. Unsustainable gameplay means having no infrastructure. No one is saying you can't deploy POS, build, refine and research in WH space. But the fact that you can't reliably return to the same place would mean there's a time limit on your stay, and an upper limit to how many POS you can run. It's already been confirmed that there will be ice. So really, it comes down to trade goods and nothing else - assuming 1 way travel gets implemented. If you were a small group trying to set up shop and stay for a long time, what prevents you from going through with a bunch of indies carrying POS equip, trade goods with 1 ship to mine ice/ore? You maximize for the trade consumables you can't get locally, and produce everything else (blueprints are easier to send through than fleets). With the current numbers they're throwing around, you can apparently send 100 cruisers through. How many indies is that? How long would a corp last with that much trade pos fuel and one tower? A year? In the event that you plan for it, the amount of time you can stay out there on a SINGLE expedition is incredible. In the end, that won't be the limiting factor even IF 1-way travel is imposed. You know what will be? Manpower and the amount of storage/loot the group can carry back to empire. Just having to pack up and leave eventually ensures that POS don't build up and good systems/moons don't get locked down forever. Except your 'one way travel' will essentially lock you into a system, unless you want to have 1 WH go form empire to the WH system, then 1 going back.. then essetially your 1 way system is not practical. WH's should be 2 way. If it will only a allow 1 bs through i should be able to send in a frig as many times as i want back and forth till i reach the amount usage. limiting it to one way will greatly cripple the use of said system. As the dev already said, you shoudl be able to scout out a system to see if you want to risk going in and doing stuff. Otherwise it will never really get used. It's not a very good idea for 1 way use. And i assume some WH's will be such and only allow a frig through then collapse.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:49:00 - [579] Originally by: Syrian FC Who`s mostly interested in that thing? Right, "stealth Ravens" ISK farmers - at the first place. They play plenty of time, dont like to be bothered by roamings, and can only live in mostly abandoned systems. The new expansions serves well to all this. So... is this what you really plan to do, CCP? That's a problem of cloaking and local, and ISK farming Ravens are everywhere. So adding this feature isn't going to change the status quo. In fact, if they used it as a testbed for local changes then I'm pretty sure that it would be the most hostile space for semi-afk farmers. Your first 2 points are not true, as you could probably send an expedition to WH space a lot faster and easier than you'd be able to do in normal 0.0 space.
Galldar 24th Michigan Black Hats Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:50:00 - [580] After reading..er speed reading 20 pages. With the new NPC AI...and scanning avaiable. If you Ctrl Q...does your ship disapear like it does now

Miss Moonwych	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:51:00 - [581] Will you be able to determine the approximate location of the WH system by looking at the stars? Or can you see where you are by opening the star map by looking at where its centered? Regards, M.M.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:53:00 - [582] Originally by: Miss Moonwych Will you be able to determine the approximate location of the WH system by looking at the stars? Or can you see where you are by opening the star map by looking at where its centered? Regards, M.M. Dev posted early stating no. you will not appear anywhere on the map
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:56:00 - [583] Originally by: DaReaper Except your 'one way travel' will essentially lock you into a system, unless you want to have 1 WH go form empire to the WH system, then 1 going back.. then essetially your 1 way system is not practical. WH's should be 2 way. If it will only a allow 1 bs through i should be able to send in a frig as many times as i want back and forth till i reach the amount usage. limiting it to one way will greatly cripple the use of said system. As the dev already said, you shoudl be able to scout out a system to see if you want to risk going in and doing stuff. Otherwise it will never really get used. It's not a very good idea for 1 way use. And i assume some WH's will be such and only allow a frig through then collapse. 1-way travel doesn't lock you in WH space. Wormholes found in WH space either lead back to normal systems or other WH areas. All it means is that once you leave a system, you have to keep moving forward without backtracking. As for the scouting issue, already been answered before. Go in with a shuttle first, check things out (doesn't use up mass). If you don't like it, self destruct. Don't wanna do it on your main? Use an alt. And the last one about being able to only send a BS through. Well sir, say you can come back through and grab another ship. Where is your first one getting dropped off? You gonna eject it in space? Cause there are no stations to dock at. 2-way travel is only, I repeat, only necessary for a permanent colonization of WH space.
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:04:00 - [584] the big concern's i read here are 1)it will nerf 0.0, my response is i hope it does! 0.0 is not any more dangerous than 0.5 if you are blue to the right ppl. safer in many systems. 2)risk vs rewards, this is why out already,the most dangerous systems seam to be 0.0npc, low sec&0.0 fridge of sov ,0.0 &0.5 with good lv4 agent, then the rest of high sec.yet the best loot is found in the safer parts of 0.0 3)settling the w-systems,seams that with 5k systems to have to cycle threw you will have a very hard time keeping fuel in the PoS.not to mention the npc's, if they are there they have some organization set up. hard to think they would let you have a PoS any longer than any 0.0 ally. 4)nerfing of pirates,it would seam that a lot of very valuable loot would be going threw some unsecured channels, this is where the big ally's get an advantage.but would be a pirates dream(not the grievers).and who cares what a bunch of babies that just want to hunt noobs and ppl that are running missions want or like. 5)nerfing of mission griefers, well it should not be as easy to find some one in a dead space as it is for you to find an exploration site. 6)1way or 2 way WH's, well it would seam most balanced the way they intend to do them,you go in hopping to get some quick loot and out to cash in, only to find some one has followed you and now there is no way home short of a fun trip, 7)sec standing, this will make it fun,-sec or KoS in a system of depart, ducking back or risk it, 0.0 for a carebear with out you cov. ops. 8)cap ships in high sec.,well there already is many there,so long as they follow the rules then they should be left alone, if not then concord OMGWTFPWN's them. i am sure i have missed several, but this should cover most.sounds like they are trying to do a good job of balancing. not to make it the way you or i think the game should be! this will be the first time a fairly new char. had a chance at the good stuff in game with out the fingers of a great ally getting in,or having to ninja it.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:04:00 - [585] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: DaReaper Except your 'one way travel' will essentially lock you into a system, unless you want to have 1 WH go form empire to the WH system, then 1 going back.. then essetially your 1 way system is not practical. WH's should be 2 way. If it will only a allow 1 bs through i should be able to send in a frig as many times as i want back and forth till i reach the amount usage. limiting it to one way will greatly cripple the use of said system. As the dev already said, you shoudl be able to scout out a system to see if you want to risk going in and doing stuff. Otherwise it will never really get used. It's not a very good idea for 1 way use. And i assume some WH's will be such and only allow a frig through then collapse. 1-way travel doesn't lock you in WH space. Wormholes found in WH space either lead back to normal systems or other WH areas. All it means is that once you leave a system, you have to keep moving forward without backtracking. As for the scouting issue, already been answered before. Go in with a shuttle first, check things out (doesn't use up mass). If you don't like it, self destruct. Don't wanna do it on your main? Use an alt. And the last one about being able to only send a BS through. Well sir, say you can come back through and grab another ship. Where is your first one getting dropped off? You gonna eject it in space? Cause there are no stations to dock at. 2-way travel is only, I repeat, only necessary for a permanent colonization of WH space. yes but your logic is flawed. So the gate from a WH system into a empire system is empire to wh only? So if i get into a system from jita, and then it closes behind me, and i go into ta new WH system, then i try to get to the empire gate, but as you have it 'set for one way' i'm then locked in the second system and can;t get out. So.. um... yea, it doesn't quite make since. Unless you have it set that once its used by 1 ship it;s closed, then that removes scouting at all. You might want to rethink this
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:07:00 - [586] the one way gate would also elimate any form of gang movement. As if it closes once used from one way, then what? you can only solo. Honestly it HAS to be bi directional and cannot be 'one way' otherwise you will NEVER get out.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:10:00 - [587] Edited by: DaReaper on 27/01/2009 06:11:39 Face it, no matter what you do, people will colonize. If you eliminate pos' then it will turn into 0.0 preconqurable stations, where corps banded together, mind and moved stuff to places for sale yet remained in the system. if the system 'collapses' after X time then you'll have alot of people getting stuck. It will be claimed. not really much you can do to stop that. tis the nature of eve. You just need to be sure that if you give people the tools to conqure, i.e. pos deployment, then it shoudl also have the tools to take that out. So maybe only allow medium or small pos in the system, that way you have limited gun and equipment to use. It would prolly take too long to make a new type of pos atm. But banning then entirly will do absolutly nothing. if i can get 1 rorq or orc in to the system then the rest of my alliance/corp will follow and we will prolly use it like old 0.0
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:20:00 - [588] The way CCP has WH's is, imo perfect. It has a time and mass count down. if i find a WH that can support 1 cap ship, then i could send 1 bs through 10 times before it collapses, or it stays open x ammout of time. This means i can get in with a fleet of friends, mess around for an hour, and still get out if the mass has not been used. and i'm done rambling for now
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:22:00 - [589] Originally by: Zex Maxwell Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. Yea it sounds like a good idea. But now that i know this. All i need to do to find a way home, is look for a wormhole thats smaller then that amount. and once you use that wormhole you end up in 0.0 space and it was just a small wormhole.
Haakelen Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:32:00 - [590] The part of this that stuck out to me is that it kinda seems like CCP is taking all the skill out of using scan probes. And since they say they're in the process of "balancing" them, the impression I get is that it'll get tedious and frustrating to scan people down, which is unfortunate. We shall see, however.

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:38:00 - [591] Originally by: Haakelen The part of this that stuck out to me is that it kinda seems like CCP is taking all the skill out of using scan probes. And since they say they're in the process of "balancing" them, the impression I get is that it'll get tedious and frustrating to scan people down, which is unfortunate. We shall see, however. Don't read so much into the dev-blog. At best what your point is, is pure speculation. It was certainly NOT the idea I got from seeing the new probe-system in action and reading the dev-blog.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:43:00 - [592] WORMSPACE
Haakelen Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:49:00 - [593] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Haakelen The part of this that stuck out to me is that it kinda seems like CCP is taking all the skill out of using scan probes. And since they say they're in the process of "balancing" them, the impression I get is that it'll get tedious and frustrating to scan people down, which is unfortunate. We shall see, however. Don't read so much into the dev-blog. At best what your point is, is pure speculation. It was certainly NOT the idea I got from seeing the new probe-system in action and reading the dev-blog. Fair enough, I'm not chicken-littling over that bit . I'm trying to read all these pages, but something that came to mind (which might've been asked before): Since there's no outposts/stations here, and you have to be docked to kick someone from a corp, couldn't someone be un-bootable in a very hard to scan down wormhole system?
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:51:00 - [594] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Haakelen The part of this that stuck out to me is that it kinda seems like CCP is taking all the skill out of using scan probes. And since they say they're in the process of "balancing" them, the impression I get is that it'll get tedious and frustrating to scan people down, which is unfortunate. We shall see, however. Don't read so much into the dev-blog. At best what your point is, is pure speculation. It was certainly NOT the idea I got from seeing the new probe-system in action and reading the dev-blog. Fair enough, I'm not chicken-littling over that bit . I'm trying to read all these pages, but something that came to mind (which might've been asked before): Since there's no outposts/stations here, and you have to be docked to kick someone from a corp, couldn't someone be un-bootable in a very hard to scan down wormhole system? i thought you could boot them if they are off line....
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:56:00 - [595] I do not agree with Rex's view on how to handle w-space or its connections. Connections should be two-way, as they'll move around very often regardless of any one group's actions. In his speculated colonization efforts, he relies on groups making 40+ jumps constantly, which is unlikely to happen on TQ when all it takes is one person to trip the new entrance and ruin those plans. People are only so patient, especially if they have to travel through multiple regions without rest. If someone can get 40 people into the same w-space system, they deserve to be able to hold onto it for a week, though I suspect numbers would dwindle pretty rapidly as people left for less-contested resources or back to empire. One thing people seem to be forgetting are the scales involved in this expansion. 2500 new systems is essentially doubling 0.0 - no one, or even combined allied, entity can hold onto a chunk of that (fluid, fluctuating, and unreliable) space. If they tried it would end up compromising (exponentially to how many w-space systems they tried to secure) their k-space operations.
Miss Moonwych	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:03:00 - [596] Originally by: DaReaper Originally by: Miss Moonwych Will you be able to determine the approximate location of the WH system by looking at the stars? Or can you see where you are by opening the star map by looking at where its centered? Regards, M.M. Dev posted early stating no. you will not appear anywhere on the map I read that and it triggered my question. So let me rephrase my question: *Will there be stars visible when you open the solarsystem* map?** Because if so, you will be able to determine the (approximate) location within the galaxy. Regards, M.M.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:22:00 - [597] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu I do not agree with Rex's view on how to handle w-space or its connections. Connections should be two-way, as they'll move around very often regardless of any one group's actions. Moving wormholes around doesn't mean much when you can live sustainably in one system. Originally by: Dal Deinvisu In his speculated colonization efforts, he relies on groups making 40+ jumps constantly, which is unlikely to happen on TQ when all it takes is one person to trip the new entrance and ruin those plans. Excuse me, but how is logistics to current 0.0 any different? The distances are not larger, nor are the challenges bigger. As I already pointed out earlier - which many people seem to gloss over - logistics difficulty will be less than or equal to the hardest you have to do right now. Put your starting base in the center of the map and you cover a lot of space with just two carrier jumps. So statistically speaking, if you get a connection in the ass end of EVE that's going to be the exception not the rule. If you don't want to use that jump, no one is forcing you to. Wormholes cycle constantly, remember? Originally by: Dal Deinvisu People are only so patient, especially if they have to travel through multiple regions without rest. If someone can get 40 people into the same w-space system, they deserve to be able to hold onto it for a week, though I suspect numbers would dwindle pretty rapidly as people left for less-contested resources or back to empire. A week? I don't care about a week, or a month, or even a year. Bring enough POS fuel and you can stay there for as long as you can keep building replacement ammo/ships. But if its not sustainable, you eventually run out of manpower to return your loot to empire. Forced 1-way travel is not a major hindrance to groups of players on expeditions surviving for weeks or months at a time. And you keep referring to groups. Would your entire alliance show up to do pos fuel runs from empire? Originally by: Dal Deinvisu One thing people seem to be forgetting are the scales involved in this expansion. 2500 new systems is essentially doubling 0.0 - no one, or even combined allied, entity can hold onto a chunk of that (fluid, fluctuating, and unreliable) space. If they tried it would end up compromising (exponentially to how many w-space systems they tried to secure) their k-space operations. Your observation is without a doubt, completely meaningless. A single entity can hold multiple systems, but they're not going to do it unless they actually need more systems. The question is not how much space a single group can hold, but how much space will be controlled after one or two years of sustainable colonization. The people who are defending 2-way travel are either insecure about their ability to meet the challenge level, or they have some kind of territorial agenda to control the best systems. More attention should be paid to maintaining the long term quality and challenge of this new space.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:27:00 - [598] Originally by: DaReaper yes but your logic is flawed. So the gate from a WH system into a empire system is empire to wh only? So if i get into a system from jita, and then it closes behind me, and i go into ta new WH system, then i try to get to the empire gate, but as you have it 'set for one way' i'm then locked in the second system and can;t get out. So.. um... yea, it doesn't quite make since. Unless you have it set that once its used by 1 ship it;s closed, then that removes scouting at all. You might want to rethink this You might want to fix your reading comprehension. I don't know how to make it any simpler for you, I must've stated this a dozen times by now.. You find wormhole, you can enter it. You exit wormhole in another system. You cannot turn around and use the exit. If you start in empire, you enter WH space. Once in WH space, you scan down new wormholes. Not exits but new entrances, you cannot scan down exits. If you want their location, bookmark after going through or scan a player that just came through. New wormhole entrances lead elsewhere. Elsewhere can be: another WH system or a regular system. Is that simple enough?
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:30:00 - [599] I came.
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:33:00 - [600] one way travel would once again boost large ally's grip on resources, not make it a challenge. and this would seam about every one having a chance at solo play with the chance of the really great rewards with a really great chance of lose. and a chance for pvp not blobs, limited numbers geting in a system, and any in high sec will definitely have ppl follow you in, but with a chance for a solo or smal gang to have a chance, not be sure that you get out numbered even if they win the first contact, so as a chance to reap some rewards.

Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:34:00 - [601] Originally by: Aeo IV I came.
Styre Blixtsnabb Caldari IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:53:00 - [602] The probe revamp looks very interesting; however, a few questions if I may. 1. Will adjusting the range of your probes have adverse affects on your results? I.e. Longer range probes generally gave results with a lower accuracy and a shorter range probe would then have to be used. I know you also mentioned Triangulation how does this apply to that as well? 2. In response to another player you said that probes had a lifetime and in your blog you said that they could be recalled for use at a later time. Do the probes have a definite life time that they carry over even after being recalled? Do they become totally unusable after a certain amount of time? 3. Will a blog be written about the new system later that goes into even greater detail? 4. Finally and most importantly will there be Pie?
HirschG Mindstar Technology Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:53:00 - [603] Will there be NPC statino in the w-systems ? Those new NPC guys need to get new ammo and drop their player loot into somewhere...
Sutskop	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:00:00 - [604] Originally by: Artmedis Valben Regarding any means other than wormholes to enter the new space being declared an exploit. we really need answers to whether this includes JCing to a Rorqual/Mothership. Also whether jumping out is also an exploit. Simpler would just be to make sure that all new wormhole systems are at least 15-20ly away from mapped spaced. I assume that all the new systems will be at a fixed location in space even though wormholes to these will be "random" (perhaps within some parameters, such as 25-30ly max). Since you don't know where you are relative to the known systems: How and where to you intend to open up a potential exit cyno? Everywhere, and see if it works? :)
Navtiqes Noob Mercs	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:07:00 - [605] It's even cooler than I had thought! If you read between the lines, you'll notice that it says people with neg sec will be able to fly their facemelters around in high sec by entering from a wormhole
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:20:00 - [606] Originally by: Matting As a -5 player I really hope this helps low sec a little with more people looking around for these. My main worry is after jumping through wormholes I will find myself in high sec getting attacked by the faction police. This could fixed by w-k being the k-w security space or lower. This also would help those 0.0 mission runners who have neg standing to most of the factions and would prefer not to be dropped there. So finding a site in high sec puts an exit in low-sec or high sec, low sec sites go to low-sec or 0.0 and 0.0 sites only exit to other 0.0 space. I think putting high sec players in to 0.0 space would be bad as they won't like the idea of the wormhole being 0.0 let alone being dropped in some random 0.0 controlled space at the end. Not sure if this is suitable but there are already enough restrictions on being a "pirate" (-5). lol - a priate asking for zero risk
Lyn Shakai	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:23:00 - [607] After reading through all of this twice I have come to the conclusion that my biggest fear is that there won't be enough randomness to wormhole spawns. If ANY predictable pattern can be observed about where access to any particular system or group of systems will appear then it will be exploited. Let's say that I notice a wormhole always appears sometime over the course of a week to W-Space System A in my alliances K-Space. I could have people watching for it to refuel / restock / move loot out / etc. As long as this isn't possible then the risks for permanent colonization are going to be high enough.
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:32:00 - [608] Edited by: Kuranta on 27/01/2009 08:33:08 just epic btw, wouldn't this be THE playground for no local and new scanner toys? Local in delayed mode, at least, please.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:35:00 - [609] About 2-way wormholes and 'gameing the system' At the moment it seems to be an easy way to 'fool' the wormhole mechanism so that it spawns wormholes to your favour. How so? Say that you are in W-space and have a wormhole leading to unfavourable space. Now, that to do to improve the sitation? Just jump through the wormhole often enough that the mass limit is reached and the wormhole will close. This should be very easy and very fast also. Then a new wormhole opens with the chance of a connection to a better K-place. This is not good. What could be done? 1-way wormholes? They will cause a lot of new problems and are way to harsh. My idea is that the collapsing mechanism should be reworked! At the moment for the wormhole the mass of each ship counts at each point of time the same. It doesn't matter to the wormhole if a ship jumps though right after creating of the wormhole or if the wormhole is at the end of its natural lifetime. Each ship counts exactly the same at any point of time. That should be changed. Right after the creation of the wormhole, the wormhole should be more stable and ships flying through shouldn't have a big impact on its stability. At the end of the lifetime of a wormhole, it is already quite destabilized and a ship flying though it should have a much bigger impact than normal. In other words, the effective mass of a ship towards the wormhole should vary in time. For a new wormhole the effective mass of a ship should be scaled down compared to the real mass, for an old wormhole the effective mass should be increase. Here two diagrams explaining it more current mass count and new mass count. Now for the second step. The maximum mass you could send in a single go through a wormhole should be limited also! And this limit should change with time as well. At first only small and lightweight ships should be able to pass through the freshly created wormhole (tons of it though since their effective mass would be very low!) but when the wormhole matures it should also 'widen' and should allow bigger and more bulky ships to pass. TL;DR Introduce 'effective affecting shipmass'; young wormholes will be more stable towards shipmasses, old wormholes will be more unstable towards the same shipmasses. Introduce maximum mass per single jump for each wormhole. Introduce time variancy of this maximum mass per single jump; young wormholes will allow only light ships to pass, old wormholes will allow huge and bulky ships to pass.
Lyn Shakai	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:37:00 - [610] Edited by: Lyn Shakai on 27/01/2009 08:46:01 Originally by: Gnulpie At the moment it seems to be an easy way to 'fool' the wormhole mechanism so that it spawns wormholes to your favour. How so? Say that you are in W-space and have a wormhole leading to unfavourable space. Now, what to do to improve the sitation? Just jump through the wormhole often enough that the mass limit is reached and the wormhole will close. This should be very easy and very fast also. Then a new wormhole opens with the chance of a connection to a better K-place. They definitely need to respond to this also. Your idea sounds a bit more complex than just putting a timer on it so you can only jump through the same wormhole every 30 minutes. But, something needs to be done.

Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:44:00 - [611] Originally by: Henglar Edited by: Henglar on 26/01/2009 21:34:56 An important question is: Will the new NPCs finally include giant space whales? We want giant space whales!!! You should've played Earth & Beyond. That had Nagifars.
Finger Puppet Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:51:00 - [612] Originally by: Gnulpie Edited by: Gnulpie on 27/01/2009 08:45:44 About 2-way wormholes and 'gaming the system' At the moment it seems to be an easy way to 'fool' the wormhole mechanism so that it spawns wormholes to your favour. How so? Say that you are in W-space and have a wormhole leading to unfavourable space. Now, what to do to improve the sitation? Just jump through the wormhole often enough that the mass limit is reached and the wormhole will close. This should be very easy and very fast also. Then a new wormhole opens with the chance of a connection to a better K-place. This is not good. What could be done? 1-way wormholes? They will cause a lot of new problems and are way to harsh. I think a simple solution to the issue would be to simply make the end life of the wormhole unstable. The last 10% of life could yield a 50% chance to collapse with each jump. That way, whoever is collapsing the wormhole has a very good chance to get stuck outside.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:51:00 - [613] Originally by: Pirc Balar And this is why, when my sub is up in a couple months I'll be reactivating and actually logging on. Great stuff. Can't wait to read / learn more. Same here. I've hardly logged on since November and was actually considering cancelling. I now think I will be here for a fifth year at least
Demeterus Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:03:00 - [614] Originally by: Gnulpie At the moment it seems to be an easy way to 'fool' the wormhole mechanism so that it spawns wormholes to your favour. How so? Say that you are in W-space and have a wormhole leading to unfavourable space. Now, what to do to improve the sitation? Just jump through the wormhole often enough that the mass limit is reached and the wormhole will close. This should be very easy and very fast also. Then a new wormhole opens with the chance of a connection to a better K-place. This is not good. Why not? To be blunt, it seems like you're asking the industrial players to jump through fifteen hoops and over an abyss to be able to use this new system, while it will be easy for whoever can just bring over a HAC. So, a boost for easy-mode piracy. Of course, the industrial players will stay where they are because they don't like to give the easy-mode pirates free kills. Which means w-space will really be the yawning emptiness because you'll have to traverse a hundred w-systems to find another player to shoot.
iulixxi Caldari EVE-RO	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:04:00 - [615] Originally by: CCP Whisper While I think the idea of having a wormhole that can let a mothership through is definitely cool, I do not think that these sorts of wormholes should be as common as sand on the beach ... What happens if you DO get a carrier or a mothership class ship there and you find a WH that have mass to get it on a K-System but it is in ... empire ... ? Like you said you never know were the WH leads until you try it ...
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:05:00 - [616] This all sounds awesome, and for some reason the Marauders suddenly look very attractive with the explaned mechanics. These have enough spare highs for a cloak, exploration probe launcher and a salvager, plenty of cargo space (for probes and goodies), good survivability and relatively low ammo consumption. In all, almost perfect to spend a good amount of time out in the wilds. Time to save up for an exploration fitted Paladin methinks.
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:06:00 - [617] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Dal Deinvisu In his speculated colonization efforts, he relies on groups making 40+ jumps constantly, which is unlikely to happen on TQ when all it takes is one person to trip the new entrance and ruin those plans. Excuse me, but how is logistics to current 0.0 any different? The distances are not larger, nor are the challenges bigger. As I already pointed out earlier - which many people seem to gloss over - logistics difficulty will be less than or equal to the hardest you have to do right now. Well let's see, in 0.0 there are multiple gates that your group control and always know the location of, they don't move and they don't cut you off. As well, there are no wildcard hostiles, you can cyno jump to your static destination, and it takes a significant hostile force to change any of this. Originally by: Rex Lashar Put your starting base in the center of the map and you cover a lot of space with just two carrier jumps. So statistically speaking, if you get a connection in the ass end of EVE that's going to be the exception not the rule. If you don't want to use that jump, no one is forcing you to. Wormholes cycle constantly, remember? That is exactly the point; no entity has control over where the next wormhole links (not evening CCP). To have a destination to take a hauler through friendly space is extremely unlikely. Even likelier someone will notice the activity and close the wormhole before the logistics team can arrive, sending them back to square 1. Originally by: Rex Originally by: Dal Deinvisu People are only so patient, especially if they have to travel through multiple regions without rest. If someone can get 40 people into the same w-space system, they deserve to be able to hold onto it for a week, though I suspect numbers would dwindle pretty rapidly as people left for less-contested resources or back to empire. A week? I don't care about a week, or a month, or even a year. Bring enough POS fuel and you can stay there for as long as you can keep building replacement ammo/ships. But if its not sustainable, you eventually run out of manpower to return your loot to empire. Forced 1-way travel is not a major hindrance to groups of players on expeditions surviving for weeks or months at a time. And you keep referring to groups. Would your entire alliance show up to do pos fuel runs from empire? You're the one advocating 1-way travel, not I, and again, you're arguing against my reasoning with my reasoning; a single hauler (or a dedicated team, ftm) is not in a position to maintain an ever fluid network of POSes, and that's not even taking into account hostiles players on the route, and then in the destination w-space. It sounds like you just object to players already inside from being able to collapse their way in/out (which is a reasonable concern). Originally by: Rex Originally by: Dal Deinvisu One thing people seem to be forgetting are the scales involved in this expansion. 2500 new systems is essentially doubling 0.0 - no one, or even combined allied, entity can hold onto a chunk of that (fluid, fluctuating, and unreliable) space. If they tried it would end up compromising (exponentially to how many w-space systems they tried to secure) their k-space operations. Your observation is without a doubt, completely meaningless. A single entity can hold multiple systems, but they're not going to do it unless they actually need more systems. The question is not how much space a single group can hold, but how much space will be controlled after one or two years of sustainable colonization. What is wrong with a logistical timebomb pos setup in most of the systems? It sounds like a great way to encourage carebears and smaller corps to actively PvP. A pos far from makes anyone invincible, just gives them more encouragement to confront their competition. I doubt any w-space will stay "quiet" for very long after the expansion hits, anyways (40000/2500).
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:13:00 - [618] Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 09:25:28 Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 09:17:58 Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 09:16:48 Originally by: Gnulpie Edited by: Gnulpie on 27/01/2009 08:45:44 About 2-way wormholes and 'gaming the system' At the moment it seems to be an easy way to 'fool' the wormhole mechanism so that it spawns wormholes to your favour. How so? Say that you are in W-space and have a wormhole leading to unfavourable space. Now, what to do to improve the sitation? Just jump through the wormhole often enough that the mass limit is reached and the wormhole will close. This should be very easy and very fast also. Then a new wormhole opens with the chance of a connection to a better K-place. With unfavourable meaning? If it's hostile space then you're going to have a problem with the locals in K-space. While you're jumping through a 100 times to close the wormhole - you're also a potential target. pictures local going up/down/up/down I think you're undersimplifying the complexity of what they have mentioned. There's many assumptions below but: In W-Space I would assume that wormholes that appear are more likely to connect to other W-Space systems rather than K-space. And as W-Space is a loosly connected system - the wormhole that opens may be in the same region, a neighbouring region or somewhere else entirely. So let's assume that short jump wormholes are more likely that long jump wormholes - a likely and plausable mechanic. Assuming that the new W-Space parrallel known Eve loosly with constallations & regions. This means that you're more likely to find a wormhole that links to a neighbouring W-space system/region and probably within the same constallation (ignoring egde effects). Local W-Space wormholes are going to be fluid and dynamic and without identifying information (ie chalk marks on walls or the modern GSC version) orientation is going to be an issue. Assuming that each constallation will have m-regions with entry points to K-Space and further than each region will have only 1 entry-point to K-space. If m is low (0.1 or there abouts) then you're looking at something like a 2% chance of finding a wormhole to get back to K-Space. Statistically you're better off taking your chances with what you find now - than for hoping for something better. Eve currently has around 5200 systems, 786 constellations and 67 regions. With 46% more systems being added - you're looking at 2400 new systems, 361 constallations and 30 regions.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:24:00 - [619] Originally by: Demeterus Originally by: Gnulpie At the moment it seems to be an easy way to 'fool' the wormhole mechanism so that it spawns wormholes to your favour. ... This is not good. Why not? Because the big alliances will just hop in there, set up their deathstar pos' and occupy the systems and keep everyone from entering there. Yeah, they are going to keep people from entering. Because they will quickly close every wormhole leading to unfavourable space with above described mechanism. Imagine you are in a good W-system and do not want other hostile people to enter there. You scan for wormholes (no problem with enough people at hand) and as soon as you find some you will check if they are leading to unfavourable space where other people can enter easily. If you find such a wormhole, they quickly close it. This way, they not only can keep a good logistic route running but also they can prevent other people from entering their system easily. The big alliances will the only ones to profit from such a mechanism and the small guys will have no chance. I don't think that anyone (except the big guys maybe ) could want this.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:30:00 - [620] Motherships, wormholes and High-Sec space! Seems to be a fairly popular question for some reason so I thought I'd touch a bit on that and how we work. Fact: Certain types of ships cannot enter certain types of space. Fact: We are making wormholes that can lead to certain types of space. From that we can deduce that we will be making wormholes that can lead to space where certain ships cannot enter. I kind of feel like I have answered the question at this point. If ship type X cannot enter space of type A then it really doesn't matter whether ship type X wants to take a stargate, wormhole or the bus to get there. It can't enter. Much like I'm not allowed to use the Women Locker Rooms regardless of whether I try to sneak in, disguise myself or access the security cameras. If I somehow manage to I'm still breaking the law. Oh and I know there is a veldnaught there. You can think of that as a tourist attraction (and if you need to fit it into my weird analogy: It's a nudist colony that was founded before nekkid bodies were made illegal).


Franga Gristle Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:32:00 - [621] I wish to confirm the 'sauce-fantastic' like qualities of this blog and it's implications.
Corin Nebulon Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:46:00 - [622] WTB Higarian Mothership for EvE-Online ;) Well, seriously atm the "Motherships" are basically "Super-Carriers" but apart from that dont really derive much from the role of a carrier. Now imagine we would strip the fighter bays from a Thanatos, add a production and refining facilities on it, give it a far weaker tank than the original thanatos and call it "Exploration Carrier". Wait didn't CCP plan to review carriers? Like making fighterbays, corp hanger arrays etc. modules? Well would it be so wrong if you could suddenly fit a carrier for exploration? Or a mothership? Of course this is not possible for march 10, since a lot of coding would be needed to be done. But couldnt cap ships get an additional fitting screen? Like "Hull Layout"? So it could become a hauling-carrier, a combat-carrier or exploration carrier? Well maybe I should post in Features and Ideas discussion ... :p Apart from this wishful thinking I don't think that One-Way-Wormholes would make much sense. Even with 2-way travel its not guaranteed that you find a exit to k-space in a area of k-space that suits you. Imagine you will only find a way to Stain. Getting fuel from there will be very hard. This means you cannot support a large number of posses in w-space. You might be able to support one or two. But then again a pos will be mostly a logistic platform, with many production and refining arrays. So even a large pos will only be lightly defended by pos guns. And now imagine a goon pos being suddenly linked to NOL... Little bees guarding their hive against the aggressiv hornets... Factors that influence the difficulty of living in wormholes will mainly be : -Frequency of wormholes with high mass and long timers. -Time needed to scan a way out of an wormhole. -Distance between wormholes -Frequency of empire-space -> w-system wormholes Even with 2-way travel CCP has enough factors to tweak on, so tower spamming in w-space might as well and up in may unfueled and abbadoned towers ;)
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:54:00 - [623] That is .. interesting. My wartime NPC corp freighter alt can move 900 000 m3. I can load a large tower and all the needed modules for that (approx 100 000 m3) into that and still have room left for 4 (non faction) to 6 (faction) months of operation. Granted, sending in freighter into there might not be the brightest idea, seeing as poor freighter can't fit probe launcher and thus would run considerable risk of getting stranded. However should the expedition be fruitful it just might be the major jackpot worth the risks. So all seems well in that regard. As long as I just can't 'fish' for exit until I get suitable one, afterall I would have up to 6 months for it. Failing that regular iteron 5 or Occator can bring in small tower with few months of fuel, altho 'essential' modules like ship array and corp hangar are relatively bulky. Hell, even few packaged assault frigates might fit in there somewhere, should the wormhole have enough capacity to spare to do couple of trips. So I would speculate that by the information relased so far erecting a tower in the wormhole space might be attractive and not-that-hard logistically. Depending ofc on the size and price of resources one can extract there. Should the extrated materials have considerable bulk it might be major logistical nightmare to get away with all the loot from sucsessful extended expedition. For 'hit and run' Paladins might be the best ships, assuming your opposition is not ECM heavy ofc. Say, 4 lasers, cloak, probe launcher and salvager. Or if the new AI does not try to probe you down during agression timer then perhaps tractor and salvager in addition to probe launcher. Overall Amarr ships might have slight edge in there as T1 crystals are not consumed. Altho as the new NPC's most likely do not have bounties then extended stay might not be profitable if extracted materials turn out to be bulky.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:55:00 - [624] I am not one to read a threadnaught, especially in a thread where there are more assumptions and speculations than anything else. But i have one remark to make. As a WH can close itself on two conditions, one being linear (TIME) and the other being event based (PUSHING MASS THROUGH) i can safely say they are going to close at some point and thus you can find another way to another system, be it K-Space or W-Space. Now to the point though, as some smart people have already figured out they could force a cycle of the WH closing and have another opening by making the WH's remaining mass capability reach zero. How will you make an existing WH reach EXACTLY zero in the first place? If my information is correct, you can ONLY jump a ship whose mass is smaller than the remaining mass on the WH. If the ship is too large you are going to be forced to find a smaller ship to fit through. I don't have all the ships masses in a list in front of me, i guess some of you do! But it's going to be very hard to find a ship that will match the mass exactly, not to mention you have to do this quickly enough to prevent anyone on the other end to mess things up. I am going, for simplicity's sake, use a pod (32,000 kg) and an apocalypse (97,100,000 kg) and another <random ship> (11,100,000 kg) for this example. The WH in question has a nice round 500,000,000 kg of mass remaining. 500,000,000 / 97,100,000 = 5.1493305870236869207003089598352 (5 apoc trips, 4 if you wanna keep it in the W-System which we will assume you want to) After four trips with the Apoc there is 111,600,000 kg remaining. Then you use the 11.1 million kg ship for 5 round trips bringing it down to 600,000 kg. At this point you can use another ship to bring it down further in a nice fashion but we only have access to our pod. 600,000 / 32,000 = 18.75 (9 round trips in a pod, 24,000 kg remain) The pod is the smallest ship i know of, you would have to at one point use a ship that is 32,000 + 12,000 kg in mass (44,000 kg) to make that WH go ZERO, that might be a ship you HAVE in which case GOOD for you. if you don't then you are going to be forced to find some other ship that can ZERO the WH. All of this math is a hazzle to work on, especially when time is limited and making a mistake can end you up being STUCK with no means of return. A 3rd party application could OFC help you with all the math, give you a list of options and thus you can focus on just closing the hole with what you have. But remember, if anything jumps in/out besides you then you will have to reset the calculations and it can get you STUCK if it happens at the wrong time. There is other problems that can occur such as MASS ADDITION (Armor plates, afterburners, etc) and MASS DEDUCTION. You would have to find out if the EFFECTIVE mass of your ship affects the mass of the WH, if not then the problem with mass addition isn't a problem at all. If it is then you are in for a big surprise when you forgot to take a single module fitted into account! As far as mass deduction goes, i think there is an implant that affects your ships mass by a certain percent. That can leave a WH LOCKED down because of fractals. (120,143.1035377 kg, TRY AND MATCH THAT!!!) You guys are better off letting the WH collapse over TIME and not bother with collapsing it with mass until CCP decide to allow for WH remaining mass to be nullified when the mass is smaller than any ship can pass through twice. Remember to THINK things through fully when dealing with these. CCP won't save your 2 billion isk ship and 2 billion isk clone in W-Space and petitioning about it should be a ban-able offense! Cheers! Cadde --------------- Opinions? Yes they belong to me, not my corp!
Green Aen	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:56:00 - [625] Originally by: Levitikon What the hell, 17 pages and noone brought it up: THE DEATHSTAR POS IN W-SPACE NEED TO BE NERFED TO OBLIVION. they are so exploitable, it's not even funny. Small dyspro mining pos is fine, but that's not how POS will be used in W-space. Deathstar POS are balanced against fleets of hundred or more BS or dreadnought fleets. In environment without enormous Battleship fleets or dreads, POS will become absolutely untouchable, indestructible safe heavens of W-space. Few advantages of POS compared to player owned station (and I'm sure idea of player owned stations inside of W-Space seems unimaginable for you): -you always see what is outside. -POS cannot be locked down. -POS cannot camped. -POS is so much easier to get in/out (no undock screen, no undock timer). -POS can be depolyed in less than an hour and fraction of isk and resources. -POS can also hold ridiculous amount of cargo, if needed (10x hangars= 14,000,000 m^3). -POS can also manufacture all ships, ammo and modules you need (at least you cannot build titans there... right?) signed for posses to good if it goes live like this. because a dread a prox the same size as a mothership in mass, then it will be almost impossible to bring those in. in means any capital ship, cause their mass are almost identical. so is mass the right tool for wormholes, i think not. table ship mass volume titan----------1.687.500.000----155.000.000 MS------------1.237.500.000-----62.000.000 carrier--------1.012.500.000-----13.950.000 battleship--------97.100.000--------517.000 BC----------------13.500.000--------234.000 cruiser-----------11.650.000--------118.000 frig----------------1.047.000----------28.600 rorqual-------1.180.000.000-----14.500.000 orca------------250.000.000-----10.250.000 what can we see in the mass table. 1)It says any capital = the same amount of mass. wich in my opinion is bad. 2) lets all fly battlecruisers it's not much mass but alot of dps . 3) rorqual logistics are bad still and orca gets in for free. now let's compare that to the volume sizes as they are now. 1)i can bring 1 carrier or 20 battleships (mass 10) 2)my orca can't get in to easely(good or bad ) 3)i think bs are most appealing now 4)i won't get my titan in there now now fixing mass amounts gives a big problem, if u change the mass of a ship u need to change agility(and agility is already high). this gives alot of trial and error. fixing(erhm no changing) volume on the otherhand won't give u any hassle, maybe only with bump size. but in my eyes volume would be much better for this. how do wormholes callapse? ? ? dev ? let's say we still work with mass. a cruiser is about 11.000.000 mass. so it must callapse at +- 15.000.000 mass. why? cruiser is a decent size. and frig is to small^^. The Callapse animation triggers and the wormhole will dissapear in 15-30 mins. why not if it reaches 0 mass. cause u can't get that figure to 0. and i haven't seen a dev speak about mass and time counter being linked. wich means mass running low, then timer will also end soon. Originally by: CCP Prism X Motherships, wormholes and High-Sec space! Seems to be a fairly popular question for some reason so I thought I'd touch a bit on that and how we work. Fact: Certain types of ships cannot enter certain types of space. Fact: We are making wormholes that can lead to certain types of space. NOOOOOO, let's say i can mass/volume related enter this system, i get there. i cyno in. and then a message saying that u can't enter. so wouldn't do that, or make it be seen and verry clearly .... but still nooo. and again awesome devs, except for the last fact. looking forward for greyscale's devblog
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:56:00 - [626] one more point, some say amarr ships will have the advantage of no ammo, but the rats there are suppose to be smart, so as more amarr ships come in they would change there tank to be more em/therm resisted i would think, and too many drakes would make them kin/therm resist, so on.
Rethe Henney Evolva' Spirit House of Mercury	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:07:00 - [627] What a great gameplay feature ! High risk, be able to fall in the middle of 0.0 trough a WH in a 1.0 space. I really love this idea, that's exploration, you never know what you may discover... Amazing works CCP ! - Evolva' Spirit - A HoM Corporation (Website)
Amarr Holymight Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:10:00 - [628] Edited by: Amarr Holymight on 27/01/2009 10:11:39 I wonder did my thread here influence you in some way? c'mon admit it Maybe not but good to see this being implemented it will hopefully add new dimensions to the game experience.
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:20:00 - [629] CCP, I'm reading your replies and posts and what not, and all I can say is, are you going to introduce some sort of sub-capital ship that performs the same way as the fitting bay does on capitals? The problem I'm seeing here is, for example, if you get stuck on one side of the wormhole, and really need to swap your fittings out, or to replace damaged ones, you'll be out of luck without a Carrier sitting behind you.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:32:00 - [630] Originally by: Aeo IV CCP, I'm reading your replies and posts and what not, and all I can say is, are you going to introduce some sort of sub-capital ship that performs the same way as the fitting bay does on capitals? From everything I've read on this thread so far it seems this will be done with an Orca, which is far smaller than a real cap and has refitting abilities, as well as enough cargo space to launch and operate a small POS. Of course, using a mining ship for this is a bit weird. Not in a bad way but a dedicated science vessel would be a better long-term idea. We still haven't heard anything from CCP about what, if anything, they're going to do to keep people from locking these new systems down. From everything we've heard so far it sounds like it'll be impossible for even the biggest alliance to control more than a few as the shifting nature of the wormholes requires each system have a dedicated staff that lives there, which is good, and will let small corps be able to go on long-term, possibly permanent expeditions, also good. But there are a LOT of small corps who will try to jump on the bandwagon and I guarantee almost all these systems will be 'claimed' by various entities within a couple of months, which is bad. And this paragraph is turning into a wall of text so I'm going to press enter twice now. I think the solution is to either make POS's temporary, or make them much weaker so a deathstar in W-space isn't totally immune to assault. I'm sure with all the interest we're seeing in this we'll get a dev response as soon as they figure out how to tweak the system so the emergent mechanics are in-line with their vision.

Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:35:00 - [631] Originally by: Aeo IV CCP, I'm reading your replies and posts and what not, and all I can say is, are you going to introduce some sort of sub-capital ship that performs the same way as the fitting bay does on capitals? The problem I'm seeing here is, for example, if you get stuck on one side of the wormhole, and really need to swap your fittings out, or to replace damaged ones, you'll be out of luck without a Carrier sitting behind you. Orca works that way. It has 400 000 m3 ship hangar. Assuming you are willing to drag Orca out there, it has mass of 2.5 battleships afterall. Or althauler with small tower and ship maint array and week of fuel.
Arnos Von	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:40:00 - [632] The concept is certainly interesting, and something I'm looking forwards to exploring (pun, as is, intended). Props to all at CCP for continuing to find innovative ways to interact with the EVE universe. I did, however, think of several things that were ready exploitations of the system. It seems others have noticed the key ones: 1) A POS is ridiculously overpowered since the mechanics of taking one down is based on K space, not W. Things like reinforced mode makes the wormhole timers a boost to POS and mass limits makes large scale sieges improbable. Logistics of keeping it fueled will likely NOT be a problem (next point). 2) The wormhole collapse mechanism will be very easy to game in a 2 way state. Your POS needs fuel or you wind up with a gate to enemy space? Collapse the tunnel until you get one pointing to friendly 0.0 or low sec. Even worse any large alliance can simply cordon off pockets of W space by collapsing tunnels so they always point to deep W-W links or W-K only to their sov territory. I'm assuming this will be fairly simple since "prime" W space should have the fewest links to make initially finding it hard. 3) Even if you don't want to lock down the tunnel totally you can just destabilize it by sending through enough mass to be sure that no sizable attack fleet can ever come through to attack you. 4) Next all you do is pump in the building array, churn out any cap ships you want in your own W pocket, then forcibly realign the gates until you can drop your fleet into enemy space if you like. On short reflection the best solution to stop fleets in a bottle sort of tactics might be to have a "here there be dragons" mentality to the space -- large NPC cap fleets that would occasionally remove POS in the regions, or space instabilities that would destroy anything in the region (with a bit of forewarning to get out). Locking off pockets of high value W space by forced realignment will be harder to combat. I've seen a number of suggestions about altering the way mass limits are calculated, but perhaps it could be tied to a system destruction mechanism. Perhaps each wormhole opening/ closing in a W system has a small chance of triggering a destructive shock (countdown to certain destruction, then all gates randomized in and out, all ships logged off in system are thrown out of system by shock wave [prevents easy relockdown, idea here being you want to make people have a chance of rediscovering the prime system]). It could be a cumulative mechanic, so if an alliance kept trying to realign wormholes in a system, the chance of triggering the system collapse would also increase. Prime W systems could also be the most unstable, to counteract the fact they'll likely have the fewest links. tl;dr? POS and wormhole realignment make W space easy to lock down and stagnate. Solution: blowing everything to bits and randomizing all links from time to time at least in prime systems to be sure it stays fresh. Looking forwards to seeing it all in march in one form or another.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:44:00 - [633] Originally by: Kessiaan We still haven't heard anything from CCP about what, if anything, they're going to do to keep people from locking these new systems down. From everything we've heard so far it sounds like it'll be impossible for even the biggest alliance to control more than a few as the shifting nature of the wormholes requires each system have a dedicated staff that lives there, which is good, and will let small corps be able to go on long-term, possibly permanent expeditions, also good. But there are a LOT of small corps who will try to jump on the bandwagon and I guarantee almost all these systems will be 'claimed' by various entities within a couple of months, which is bad. And this paragraph is turning into a wall of text so I'm going to press enter twice now. I think the solution is to either make POS's temporary, or make them much weaker so a deathstar in W-space isn't totally immune to assault. I'm sure with all the interest we're seeing in this we'll get a dev response as soon as they figure out how to tweak the system so the emergent mechanics are in-line with their vision. I do not see deathstar in there as a problem. If you really want the system you can bring in enough pilots regardless of that death star to make system unusable for the opposition. Assuming you actually are out there not just trying to 'claim' it. The guys in POS can sit in there all they want with the pos gunners, if you have space superiority and are better skilled then them having a POS is moot point. Afterall if you have space superiority nothing will prevent you also erecting one. As far as all of them being claimed withing few months - I find it highly unlikely. Will most of them have 1 to 3 people in them .. perhaps ? Will you be able to fight for the system if you want to ? Most certainly. You can just ignore systems with too heavy population for your tastes. There is not enough well enough organized corporations out there to claim all the systems in convincing way. The bottom line is - this is EVE - if you want something you will have to take it from the cold dead hands of previous owner. The new space will be ideal in that sense, as it WILL be hard for organized big corporations to bring their weight bearing in multiple systems at once.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:48:00 - [634] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 27/01/2009 10:48:58 Being a long-time explorer I overall like the expansion. However I also got some concerns: 1) From what I can read the new type of exploration probes, with their low fitting requirements, will heavily hit the role of covops and T1 exploration frigates. Will the scan time cycle length still be relevant for the "new" exploration probes like the "old" exploration probes, so that covop pilots will still have a good reason to use a covop? 2) Even assuming that the role of covops is not affected, What about the role of the "old" exploration probes? Will the "new" exploration probes have have some drawback to offset their advantages? I don't think that the inability to find ships is enough a drawback. Every explorer will always choose the "new" exploration probes over the "old" ones, unless more drawbacks are added. 3) I have not clearly understood the role of the new "combat probes". Currently, to find ships you can either use the less powerful, faster recon probes, or the more powerful, slower racial probes. What's the point of the "combat probes"? 4) While I approve of making exploration less boring, I do NOT approve of just making it easier. Current exploration is boring, but to be carried out effectively it requires intelligence and planning (besides decent skills). If the new scan mechanic is less boring but STILL requires intelligence and planning, go for it. But if it removes the need for intelligence and planning, I suggest to keep things as they are.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:48:00 - [635] Originally by: Arnos Von 1) A POS is ridiculously overpowered since the mechanics of taking one down is based on K space, not W. Things like reinforced mode makes the wormhole timers a boost to POS and mass limits makes large scale sieges improbable. Logistics of keeping it fueled will likely NOT be a problem (next point). I agree that it will be hard to kill POS out there. However I fail to see why would you need to kill that POS out there ? It's not claiming sov and at best is well armed safespot. Advantage you can also have as easily. If you actually live out there then you already have local space superiority, if you do not live out there then you are asking to make it easier to 'claim' systems in the classical zerozero sense - ie removing competitors infrastructure with overhelming force.
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:49:00 - [636] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Aeo IV CCP, I'm reading your replies and posts and what not, and all I can say is, are you going to introduce some sort of sub-capital ship that performs the same way as the fitting bay does on capitals? The problem I'm seeing here is, for example, if you get stuck on one side of the wormhole, and really need to swap your fittings out, or to replace damaged ones, you'll be out of luck without a Carrier sitting behind you. Orca works that way. It has 400 000 m3 ship hangar. Assuming you are willing to drag Orca out there, it has mass of 2.5 battleships afterall. Or althauler with small tower and ship maint array and week of fuel. One other question I'd like answered is if the mass values will be changed for some ships, and whether or not the 'mass value' also includes the mass of your fittings and cargo.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:50:00 - [637] I like the above idea about destructive shock waves. Ideally they should have a fair amount of forewarning though (maybe 2-3 days) so people have enough time to pack up their things and move on. Roving, semi-mobile, long-term expeditions operating out of a small POS and/or an Orca is awesome. Alliances turning W-space into a lucrative, if somewhat logistically annoying, outpost is not. Some other ideas I had for easy deathstar ner**e. In W-Space... POS shields are much less effective. Perhaps capped at the level of a small POS, regardless of how big the POS actually. Would make them vulnerable to small BS fleets. * It costs 10x and much PG and CPU to anchor something outside the POS bubble. Makes POS guns less effective. * Presence of a POS destablizes the system, making wormhole links much more likely to point into other wormhole systems. Most of the time there would be no wormhole back to k space in a w system with a POS in it. This would make logistics for a permanent POS much more difficult. I would say no reinforced mode, but that just hurts the small guys, as big alliances would have the staff to defend a POS 23/7 and it wouldn't really hurt them.
Bakari Eno Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:54:00 - [638] Originally by: Gnulpie Edited by: Gnulpie on 27/01/2009 08:45:44 About 2-way wormholes and 'gaming the system' Introduce 'effective affecting shipmass'; young wormholes will be more stable towards shipmasses, old wormholes will be more unstable towards the same shipmasses. Introduce maximum mass per single jump for each wormhole. Introduce time variancy of this maximum mass per single jump; young wormholes will allow only light ships to pass, old wormholes will allow huge and bulky ships to pass. Well as im to lazy to try to quote the other thing im thinking (forum noob)(Prepares for the flames) im a big fan of a hybrid system of this crossed with the mechnic that as the mass limit of the wormhole is lowered (nearing minimum limit for ships to pass aka. shuttles, pods, etc. etc.). The lower the w/h mass the faster the timer should accelerate to compensate to allow the hole to close in a timely but not excessivly fast manner(thus adding another hurdle to w/h cycling). Another way this could be approached is by having the mass count be the timer in and of itself, where as the w/h ages the mass that can pass through is actually smaller and smaller the older it gets allowing fresh new w/h's to be easily scanned down while older and smaller holes being harder and ultimatly less rewarding to scan for(also nice segway into current wormhole theory's about age/size/power). Also in this second mechanic it would possibly allow the player trying to cycle or close the worm hole the slip through the hole in the desired direction of travel while still closing the hole faster(tho im thinking that the w/h's would respawn once every hour or so as yet another way to prevent people from rapidly changing the end point of the hole spawn).
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:58:00 - [639] Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 11:00:15 Originally by: Kessiaan * Presence of a POS destablizes the system, making wormhole links much more likely to point into other wormhole systems. Most of the time there would be no wormhole back to k space in a w system with a POS in it. This would make logistics for a permanent POS much more difficult. This would be counter-productive - as it essentially makes the POS system a safe harbour and thereby safer. Additionally over time you would end up with a mechanism that allows players to create entry-point hubs to/from K-Space. Over an even longer period of time you would lock down W-Space.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 10:59:00 - [640] Originally by: Kessiaan I would say no reinforced mode, but that just hurts the small guys, as big alliances would have the staff to defend a POS 23/7 and it wouldn't really hurt them. I have to agree to that one. Reinforced mode is there for a reason to negate timezone advantage. However I'm not that keen on other ideas about putting towers at disadvantage. Mainly bcos I do not see the POS as a problem in there as both sides can erect one as easily and if willing to put the logistical effort into it both sides can bring in enough ships to harass enemy tower enough. I especially don't like idea about artificially different system behaviour if towers are present. That out of the way if system has any effects on ships or towers that are present regardless of towers or ships being present then why not. Artificial stuff is just kinda immersion breaking. Something like no natural shield regen on ships and towers or whatever is ok as long as everyone is getting shafted the same way. I mean both ships and towers as they are afterall using same technology.

Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:03:00 - [641] Originally by: Arnos Von 4) Next all you do is pump in the building array, churn out any cap ships you want in your own W pocket, then forcibly realign the gates until you can drop your fleet into enemy space if you like. Bear in mind that you need sov. to build supercaps, which won't be possible in w-space. And what makes you think that it will be easy to move large volumes of minerals & fuel into your space while simultaneously keeping out all enemies? --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
LaserX Caldari Legion of Steel Lions	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:08:00 - [642] Since we cannot confirm what the brand new NPC type will be like, there should be possibility that some local residents are friendly toward us and we may be able to dock in their station for a high docking fee, if we have to refit our ships or something. Oh and ... am I the only one who think the current 0.0 should have been developed in a way like the wormhole system?
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:11:00 - [643] I understand that POS's can't claim sov and can't directly prevent another entity from erecting their own. My main concern with a well-entrenched POS is that short of sieging it until it runs out of gas there's no feasible way to remove it and thus leaves open the options of a defeated (but not podded) defensive force holing up in their POS and waiting for the attackers to get bored and leave, and a defensive force building a huge fleet from stockpiled minerals in total safety to eject the attacking force. It doesn't matter if they can't field all their ships at once, they can just spam BS's until the enemy POS is dead and everyone is gone. While the defenders are sitting in their POS they could run harassment against the attacking force, preventing them from being able to harvest any decent amount of ice / minerals, thus preventing from establishing themselves the same way. Even if it can't claim sov and do any of the stuff related to it, a POS can still exert considerable influence over the system it's located in. It shouldn't be invulnerable just because it's hard to reach and has some time/ISK invested in it. That's my concern.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:11:00 - [644] Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 11:13:11 I don't see a problem with POS's generally and I don't see why they should act any differently than now. You can't gain sov with them - and by the time you can the sov mechanics will have changed. A fortified POS puts a greater strain on your logistics - which means they're unlikely to appear in the short term until you've built up sufficient resources. In the same time period others will be building capital ships in W-Space. If you really wanted to make fortified POS's more painful - then just increase the fuel requirements of combat related POS modules on the tower to strain the logistics more. Not too disimilar to the current mechanic where sov reduces the fuel requirements. With delayed local and random exit points in system for WH's - nobody will be having an easy time tracking down incoming ships that can cloak. Depending of course on how the new combat probes operate.
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:14:00 - [645] Edited by: Mioelnir on 27/01/2009 11:14:07 Originally by: LaserX Since we cannot confirm what the brand new NPC type will be like, there should be possibility that some local residents are friendly toward us and we may be able to dock in their station for a high docking fee, if we have to refit our ships or something. Oh and ... am I the only one who think the current 0.0 should have been developed in a way like the wormhole system? There will be no stations.
egegergergsdgedgege	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:17:00 - [646] Will there be giant space whales behind the wormholes?
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:19:00 - [647] I wonder how many minutes it will be before the first POS is up in wormspace. I am also looking forward to the exploration improvements and the posibility to build T3 stuff, but I have one question that instantly poped in my head. Wormholes have a certain mass they can handle before they collapse, so I find a wormhole and take 3 corp members trough for some nice ratting in a far away universe. Then an other corp finds the same hole, and shoves through 3 ships as well figuring they don't have to come back. Now there is 6 of us in the system and we get a long just fine. But we are all stuck there, even though 3 of us where planning on going back home after our cargo hold is full... that would sort of suck would it not? Does this mean that we will have to defend a wormhole we found in Jita, to make usre our corp mates can come back trough? And if so does this mean that we can be assigned as hole guards making it possible to shoot and kill anyone tryng to move trough the hole? Will there be a anchorable device at the far end of the hole cloaking the hole at it's origin point? Lets say I am stuck in wormspace for what ever reason I find a new hole... how do I know I am not going to end up in the middle of a 0.0 battle ground? Can I see where the wormhole leads? Can players assign names to the systems they find via the wormholes? What about the planets can we name thouse? Will there be planets? What about the new NPC's out there, will they all be hostile or will there be pigs in space as well? More belts that sounds like a wormhole that should be able to handle at least a few hulks and then a industrial several times before the hulks have to go back to prevent the hole from closing on them, but what is a band of pirates jumps trough... It cannot be that hard to figure out where a industrial is jumping to, which leads me to think that if I see one jump to and from several times I just scan the hole calculate the ammount of mass needed to colapse it and jump in and out a few times making it close as I jump to wormspace the last time, then I have a bunch of free hulks for the killing as they have no way out anymore. I expect CCP has thought about that but I also expect several people to invent wonderful ways of abusing this mechanic.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:20:00 - [648] I share the view of many players in this thread. Those systems will be claimed very fast and if a claiming group pay at least minimal attention there are no way to destroy faction large tower in proper deathstar configuration. I see only one way to prevent it - you can not anchor POS in new systems.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:28:00 - [649] Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 11:28:52 Originally by: Ralitge boyter Wormholes have a certain mass they can handle before they collapse, so I find a wormhole and take 3 corp members trough for some nice ratting in a far away universe. Then an other corp finds the same hole, and shoves through 3 ships as well figuring they don't have to come back. Now there is 6 of us in the system and we get a long just fine. But we are all stuck there, even though 3 of us where planning on going back home after our cargo hold is full... that would sort of suck would it not? It's the old risk/reward. Hope for the best - plan for the worst. Originally by: Ralitge boyter Does this mean that we will have to defend a wormhole we found in Jita, to make usre our corp mates can come back trough? And if so does this mean that we can be assigned as hole guards making it possible to shoot and kill anyone tryng to move trough the hole? Will there be a anchorable device at the far end of the hole cloaking the hole at it's origin point? If you shoot people in empire - the system sec status will determine any concord response. Normal rules apply. They've not mentioned anything anchorable - but from what they have said - the wormhole itself won't move once it's up. The next one, if it's even in the same system, will probably be in a different location and will probably take you somewhere else in K-Space or W-Space. Originally by: Ralitge boyter Lets say I am stuck in wormspace for what ever reason I find a new hole... how do I know I am not going to end up in the middle of a 0.0 battle ground? Can I see where the wormhole leads? Can players assign names to the systems they find via the wormholes? What about the planets can we name thouse? Will there be planets? What about the new NPC's out there, will they all be hostile or will there be pigs in space as well? More belts that sounds like a wormhole that should be able to handle at least a few hulks and then a industrial several times before the hulks have to go back to prevent the hole from closing on them, but what is a band of pirates jumps trough... It cannot be that hard to figure out where a industrial is jumping to, which leads me to think that if I see one jump to and from several times I just scan the hole calculate the ammount of mass needed to colapse it and jump in and out a few times making it close as I jump to wormspace the last time, then I have a bunch of free hulks for the killing as they have no way out anymore. You can see where it goes by using it :) You can assign your own names to the bookmarks - I doubt you can perm name the system/planets. And 0.0 are killing fields if you're not prepared - risk/reward again.
Saluss Caldari Infernal Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:32:00 - [650] Not sure if this has been brought up already but its worth a mention , If capitals can enter wormholes and all wormhole systems have a route back to known space is there anything to prevent cap ships turning up in highsec systems ? Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun

Amandrace Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:35:00 - [651] I glazed through the last 22 pages just reading dev posts, but when I get the chance, I'll read the rest. At any rate, just adding my feelings. This is the first time in 2 years of playing eve that I'm geniunely excited for an expansion. This gives me a whole new purpose to play the game, to finally at last explore, in the truest sense, with all the danger and adventure that go with it. Basically, I love you developers!
Bielbo	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:36:00 - [652] Ok so i believe no one has touched the subject at hand: Monular ships are possibly upto 5 sections to make a total ship, therefore we can assume that whoever goes into the W-Space and returns safely may be able to pick up a modular section on the way. Further to my assumption i like to think finding 5 modules to build a ship would allow me to go wack to W-Space and have greater chances of survival and success! Theses ships are reversed engineered and to that end they naturally come from W-Space so what better way to survive the new space than to use modular ships from W-Space! In fact it hasnt been confirmed that modular carrier ships have been designed but if they were you could design it to how you see fit if you decide to go to W-Space with it!
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:37:00 - [653] Originally by: Darth Felin I share the view of many players in this thread. Those systems will be claimed very fast and if a claiming group pay at least minimal attention there are no way to destroy faction large tower in proper deathstar configuration. I see only one way to prevent it - you can not anchor POS in new systems. Well, I was also thinking along those lines. But a 'proper' deathstar configuration would leave little to no room for the things you would actually want. A place to refit/repair your ships, produce ammo, and possibly ships. Then you have the problem of actually getting enough ice to the darned thing, that's the key to getting the POS down, just keep intercepting the fuel supply. Then there is another thought. Remember that it was mentioned that Wormhole NPCs don't function like regular NPCs... What if they roam the system at will and can scan down individual pilots or... POSes ;-) While it might initially seem like a good idea to get some fast T3 resources, it does play havoc with your ammo. Unlimited supply of NPCs, limited supply of ammo... While large/dedicated alliances might claim a few Wormhole systems, it's going to take a while. As mentioned there are over 2500 new, undocumented systems. Even reaching them all is going to take an unprecedented amount of pilots, keeping track of all those systems is going to be a logistic nightmare. And let's not forget that they aren't alone out there, and warfare is going to change drastically. Supply, repair and exploration ships are going to be very important, but are also very fragile. All the alliance resource aimed at Wormhole space is not being deployed in 0.0 space, thus leaving them wide open to other Alliances that don't take the Wormhole risks...
glassmanipulator Lucian Alliance Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:38:00 - [654] Just the whole sound of this is kinda bad... imo they should leave the scanning mechanics ALONE and just introduce a wormhole launcher and/or wormhole probe(s). Sounds like WAY too much change to me. Why not add "wormholes" to multispec results, and let people go from there or something. Christ.. this is bad.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:38:00 - [655] Edited by: Carniflex on 27/01/2009 11:44:14 Originally by: Kessiaan I understand that POS's can't claim sov and can't directly prevent another entity from erecting their own. My main concern with a well-entrenched POS is that short of sieging it until it runs out of gas there's no feasible way to remove it and thus leaves open the options of a defeated (but not podded) defensive force holing up in their POS and waiting for the attackers to get bored and leave, and a defensive force building a huge fleet from stockpiled minerals in total safety to eject the attacking force. It doesn't matter if they can't field all their ships at once, they can just spam BS's until the enemy POS is dead and everyone is gone. While the defenders are sitting in their POS they could run harassment against the attacking force, preventing them from being able to harvest any decent amount of ice / minerals, thus preventing from establishing themselves the same way. Even if it can't claim sov and do any of the stuff related to it, a POS can still exert considerable influence over the system it's located in. It shouldn't be invulnerable just because it's hard to reach and has some time/ISK invested in it. That's my concern. And that is why I like them. That is advantageous to smaller entities that want to lay claim to the system. They can run guerilla operation and kick bigger corp nuts one at a time if they have balls where the balls should be. While still having a location to hole up should the bigger entity bring it's mass to bear without having to rely on cloaks. Keep in mind that those systems are not meant to be easily claimed. POS being hard to remove most certainly will make it harder for stronger entities to gain full control of system without going thru unreasonably big commitment of getting all those guys needed to remove the tower in system, on at the same time and in right ships for the job. While at the same time anyone can waltz in 3 AM in the morning and erect a tower if he is willing to go thru the logistical trouble of keeping it fueled. So at the end of day - want to claim a system ? No problem, but you have actually to be present in that system to prevent stuff you dont want to see happening there. Missed tower going up ? Tough luck you have now neighbours. Well armed and grinning. Keep in mind that all you have to do is to pod em all out from the system and no way in hell find they that system again in time for next fuel shipment. You just have to catch their pos alt when it is trying to find wormhole out to bring new guys in or even better, collapse that wormhole after him should he go to peek thru the found wormhole to tell his guys where to go to get back into system.
ori thermos	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:39:00 - [656] So all worm holes leed to null sec, well my interest in the whole thing just went out the door.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:40:00 - [657] From what I've read so far - T3 ships are cruiser class only at the mo. There's not much info about the mechanics of how W-Space will contribute to T3 - but I would guess it would be BP based - so you'd need to reverse-engineer possible before you could build. The building requirements might also need T3 based components before you could build them - much as today with T2 construction.
Eldstrom	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:45:00 - [658] --Warning slightly rambling post-- There seems to be lots of worrying that all the big 0.0 alliance are have going to gobbled up all the best systems really quick in this launch, particularly from Rex who's been most vocal about this. most the talk has been about dyspro moons given there are claimed to be only 64 of the beasts in known space with static gateways. now you looking at having we are having another 2500+ systems with non static links, no real identification given talk of making systems bigger at fanfest they are likely to have quite a few moons. I think any 0.0 alliance is going to require a healthy dose of luck to find those goldmine systems. That's assuming the moons have any known minerals. then again ccp have said they created x number of systems, but they haven't said they are going to let us get at them all at once, given that T3 cruisers are going the only available T3 ships it's quite possible that CCP could only let us lose on the more common/less profitable systems to start with. the best systems may never link to k-space and may even be deep W-space requiring traversing multiple W-W links to get to k-space. certainly if I was CCP I'd make damn some systems require deep W-W travel. I think the fears that large alliances monopolising are just that fears, and if quite possible unfounded it really depends alot on how depth or flat W-space will be and thats something I don't expect CCP to tell that will be something CCP will want use to find out. Having said that we don't know what else CCP has up it's sleeves if they've moved most resources to the dungeon system the whom is to say if the systems will have a static value for all we know CCP may have introduced a system where the more taken/killed in W-system the less likely a new resources will appear in that system, making it impossible to set up in a system and farm for months and years. however it won't stop smaller corps setting up home in a W-system and making a living as long as they don't take/kill to much or requiring any group that is going to try and farm a w-system for everything it has move to a slash and burn method where they have to move w-system every month or so. I hope some if not all of these thought have already been thought of by CCP or prehaps they have other better ones, if not feel free in pick up any you want and running with them. Eld
Elisabeth Dakar	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:49:00 - [659] Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege Will there be giant space whales behind the wormholes? That would be so awesome! Maybe we can get different color whales or different sizes. Or there could be a new skill for whale taming.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:49:00 - [660] Originally by: ori thermos So all worm holes leed to null sec, well my interest in the whole thing just went out the door. risk/reward is pretty vital. if empire huggers can get the same rewards in the new systems, but still have concord protection, the entire risk verses reward equation gets skewed.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:51:00 - [661] Originally by: ori thermos So all worm holes leed to null sec, well my interest in the whole thing just went out the door. What are you talking about? That is certainly NOT true. Frist of all, wormholes are (at the moment) all 2-way. That means if you found a wormhole in high sec and entered it and ended up in the wormhole space then you can use that same wormhole to go back to the high-sec system you came from. Second, if the original wormhole (we assume it was in high sec) collapsed then a new wormhole in this system will open up, somewhere. This new wormhole will connect to some other space and this other space will likely be high sec (because orginally you entered the current system from high-sec) but there is also a chance that this wormhole will not lead to high sec but deeper into w-space or it could also end up at low sec or 0.0, this is completely chance based. So, not at all each and every w-system will be directly conneced to 0.0!
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:54:00 - [662] i think what he means is that w-space has no concord. We come for our people
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:56:00 - [663] Originally by: Xennith i think what he means is that w-space has no concord. Ah! My mistake then. Yeah, no concord in w-space ... and that is GOOD! Really good move from CCP. Makes things really interesting I think. Of course they can always add, if they feel it necessary later, some sort of npc-concord later. Who knows.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:02:00 - [664] Originally by: Gnulpie Yeah, no concord in w-space ... and that is GOOD! Really good move from CCP. Makes things really interesting I think. You mean it's not safe for me to bring my faction-fitted navy raven in there? ;( ...
ori thermos	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:04:00 - [665] Yes you are correct in that my point was no concord. So the effect of the expansion is to expand 0.0 which is an area of zero interest for me however if a long lost part of empire was to turn up only accessable by shifting w-space that would be very interesting.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:09:00 - [666] awsome stuff, can't wait for it! especially the much lower probe fitting req's on exploration launchers. new NPC faction? cool! will they have something to do with t3 items? :D setting up towers in the new unkown systems...now thats interesting..i'm assuming it'll be moon mins worthy to risk trying to mine there then? I like the idea of being able to have trouble finding the way out of there as well will it be in all sec systems, high, low, 0.0? or just low and 0.0? the entry to the unknown systems, will it place you randomly in it? or will everyone entering come out at the same place? it'd be rather easy to camp if same place since no gates etc... i'm a pvp'er, but i don't like camps 0.0 alliances beware, i'll be specialising in utilizing wormholes to raid youre space! ''In fact one of my biggest challenges will be stopping PrismX from adding ten thousand systems now that he's gotten a taste of being a deity in creative mood.'' Don't stop him from doing that!!! it'll bring back proper roaming instead of getting blobbed after just starting.... also it'll make space for many new starts for smaller corps/alliances. if this expansion is even near how im imagining it, it'll be THE best expansion ever
Zun Da	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:15:00 - [667] Originally by: adriaans if this expansion is even near how im imagining it, it'll be THE best expansion ever And wormholes are only a (small) part of the next expansion!! There will be also T3, epic missions, new graphics and moaaaar, omg! CANT WIAT!!!!1111eleven
Monotard	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:17:00 - [668] I'm looking forward to 6 months of bugs, exploits, unscheduled downtime and whines that inevitably come with every major patch. This is going to be glorious.
Ramman K'arojic	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:18:00 - [669] This looks totally awesome 1 suggestion that I think would be worth while considering. Is that if the mass remaining on a WH is less than the current the current ship (and say no more than say 3.0x times the ship you want to jump) it should be allowed in; but its only a one way trip. Ramman
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:19:00 - [670] So, what happens when an outlaw goes through a wormhole in wormspace and finds himself dumped in the middle of highsec knownspace?

Porucznik Borewicz Gallente Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:19:00 - [671] Originally by: Zun Da Originally by: adriaans if this expansion is even near how im imagining it, it'll be THE best expansion ever And wormholes are only a (small) part of the next expansion!! There will be also T3, epic missions, new graphics and moaaaar, omg! CANT WIAT!!!!1111eleven I just hope that T3 ships will not be what T2 are for the T1 ones...
Ceist Mashal	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:20:00 - [672] Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:22:00 - [673] Originally by: Gypsio III So, what happens when an outlaw goes through a wormhole in wormspace and finds himself dumped in the middle of highsec knownspace? He gets a ticker tape parade by concord. The risk/reward goes both ways or do you only want the carebears to take the risk?
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:24:00 - [674] Originally by: Eldstrom then again ccp have said they created x number of systems, but they haven't said they are going to let us get at them all at once, given that T3 cruisers are going the only available T3 ships it's quite possible that CCP could only let us lose on the more common/less profitable systems to start with. the best systems may never link to k-space and may even be deep W-space requiring traversing multiple W-W links to get to k-space. certainly if I was CCP I'd make damn some systems require deep W-W travel. It was already said all w-space (witchspace? hello thargoids!) systems will have link to known space And anyway adding more systems to w-space should be quite simple I think.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:26:00 - [675] Originally by: Red 7 Originally by: Gypsio III So, what happens when an outlaw goes through a wormhole in wormspace and finds himself dumped in the middle of highsec knownspace? He gets a ticker tape parade by concord. The risk/reward goes both ways or do you only want the carebears to take the risk? Ah, so where is the corresponding reward in an outlaw jumping into highsec knownspace?
Porucznik Borewicz Gallente Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:26:00 - [676] Originally by: Monotard I'm looking forward to 6 months of bugs, exploits, unscheduled downtime and whines that inevitably come with every major patch. This is going to be glorious. /signed
JiJiCle Gallente Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:30:00 - [677] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: CCP Whisper Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. Simply make any high sec connected wormhole have a mass allowance that is too small to allow capital ships through Cap high sec wormholes at 900mil kg, still allows a round trip for a couple of battleships (or even an single orca), but doesn't allow cap ships unauthorized access to high sec. Good idea. You could achieve that with a signature radius limit. It would be more flexible because you could send more ships back and forth while preventing caps to go through.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:31:00 - [678] Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space. That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example.

DaiZ Do	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:32:00 - [679] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Red 7 Originally by: Gypsio III So, what happens when an outlaw goes through a wormhole in wormspace and finds himself dumped in the middle of highsec knownspace? He gets a ticker tape parade by concord. The risk/reward goes both ways or do you only want the carebears to take the risk? Ah, so where is the corresponding reward in an outlaw jumping into highsec knownspace? Where is the reward of Carebears jumping out of W-Space to LowSec, getting insta-Ganked by Wormhole-Camping Piratz? Seriously, the way all this is stated here, low-sec + nullsec will be Wormhole-Camp-Fest-Space and outlaws get Concordokked in high-sec.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:32:00 - [680] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Red 7 Originally by: Gypsio III So, what happens when an outlaw goes through a wormhole in wormspace and finds himself dumped in the middle of highsec knownspace? He gets a ticker tape parade by concord. The risk/reward goes both ways or do you only want the carebears to take the risk? Ah, so where is the corresponding reward in an outlaw jumping into highsec knownspace? The busy day of harvesting those in 0.0 = reward. Using a WH to get back to Empire = risk.

Kim Telkin Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [681] To Rex Lashar, thoughts on this 2-way wormhole idea? So we have about 1000 new systems. Lets divide them into 5 groups (by truesec or what have you). Group 1 being the worst systems with common moons etc. Group 5 being the best systems with the rarest moons. Treat K space as 'Group 0'. Take the hypothesis that all WHs are two way. BUT in a system in Group N, the chance for the WH to connect to a system in a different group is as follows: Group N-2: 10% Group N-1: 40% Group N: 30% Group N+1: 15% Group N+2: 5% Or something like that. So if the best moons are in 'Deep W space' (group 5), they will never connect directly to K space. Only to less deep W space. From there you could travel to even less deep W space or to K space if you're lucky. So you set up a POS on a awesome moon in a Group 5 system and you populate it with 50 players. They probe all the time and find a WH to group 3 space. A scout goes through, and only once in a while will a scout find a route directly to K space. Most likely the WH goes to another W space system. you can probe out a route through a few W space systems to K space. Then bring your fleet of 5 or 6 players in. But you have to keep the route open and secure the whole time. So in this type of scenario, the 'shallow' W space is easy to colonize as you predicted, but not as profitable. 'Deep' W space would be very hard to colonize, but very profitable. By balancing the chance of WHs going to different group types you could make deep W space a true frontier I think. But perhaps I am missing something. Can you think of a good way to game a system like that?
Ker HarSol Minmatar Zip - I	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [682] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ceist Mashal ...if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space. That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example. WOW This is getting better every hour!
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:37:00 - [683] i didnt think there were going to be k<>k links, thats pretty epic.
Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:38:00 - [684] Any news on when it will hit SiSi???
JiJiCle Gallente Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:42:00 - [685] Edited by: JiJiCle on 27/01/2009 12:43:00 Originally by: Xennith i didnt think there were going to be k<>k links, thats pretty epic. It wont there could be : K-system <=WH=> W-system <=WH=> K-system but NOT : K-system <=WH=> K-system Originally by: Brutal Bruno Any news on when it will hit SiSi???
Jazmyne Lee	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:43:00 - [686] has anyone asked what is the new NPC thats going to bring all this new Tech3 stuff. not much space left on the map that ya cant get to. does this mean ....... :P
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:44:00 - [687] Originally by: JiJiCle Edited by: JiJiCle on 27/01/2009 12:43:00 Originally by: Xennith i didnt think there were going to be k<>k links, thats pretty epic. It wont there could be : K-system <=WH=> W-system <=WH=> K-system but NOT : K-system <=WH=> K-system Originally by: Brutal Bruno Any news on when it will hit SiSi??? As far as I'm understanding the statement was that there WILL be K-system <=WH=> K-system in some cases. Both from hi sec to hi sec or from hi sec to zerozero (with lower propability).

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:47:00 - [688] Originally by: JiJiCle Edited by: JiJiCle on 27/01/2009 12:43:00 Originally by: Xennith i didnt think there were going to be k<>k links, thats pretty epic. It wont there could be : K-system <=WH=> W-system <=WH=> K-system but NOT : K-system <=WH=> K-system Originally by: Brutal Bruno Any news on when it will hit SiSi??? I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm.

Abigail101	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:47:00 - [689] Can't wait, not sure about the dumbing down of scanning though
Ker HarSol Minmatar Zip - I	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:48:00 - [690] Originally by: JiJiCle Originally by: Xennith i didnt think there were going to be k<>k links, thats pretty epic. It wont Read PrismX a few posts above: Originally by: CCP Prism X That [entrance to different empire faction systems] is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example.

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:52:00 - [691] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 27/01/2009 12:54:12 read the devgblog, scanned all the bluebar posts. looks ok so far ... this I got frome the bluebars: 1. no clone jumping into W space 2. no cynos in W space Now the big question: Will it be possible to jump/bridge FROM W space ? I am thinking more BlackOps than Titans. I imagine it like this: 1. corp finds a wormhole and sends in a scout. 2. scout reports all ok, blackops with a few transports of fuel come through wormhole 3. rest of corp opens covert cyno on K space 4. corp jumps into W space via black ops bridge Now this has certain limitations as the BlackOps can only bridge a limited set of ships, but it still allows for a decent sized gang to enter without using the wormhole as such and also leave by the same means. Will the above also be considered exploit or explicitly prevented ? (I admit I have 0 knowledge how the BlackOps bridge works)
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:56:00 - [692] From information provided to us from within this page, SHC have deduced that the upper limit for wormhole Mass-Stability would be roughly the mass of one Mothership. Mass-stability of wormholes of this magnitude would probably be extremely rare and more common from wormholes that lead out from 0.0. If the mass-stability of a wormhole equalled that of 1 Aeon, here are the numbers for the ships that can be transported before the wormhole collapses. Geddon = 11(.7) Harbinger = 91(.6) Sac = 100(.7) Crusader = 1178(.6) Remember, these numbers are pure speculation and have been deduced purely on comments made by the CCP since the recent blog
Raneru Euphoria Released Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:58:00 - [693] Would CCP consider allowing us to "overload" wormholes? for example, if the wormhole is only big enough to squeeze a cruiser through, allow us to attempt to push a BS through with the risk of severe ship damage.
JiJiCle Gallente Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:58:00 - [694] well, sorry then, missed that part
Helmut 314 Amarr Unladen Swallow Research Institute	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:59:00 - [695] Very exciting news. Thank you CCP Whisper, keep up the good work. A lot of people worry about POS, well one POS does not a lockdown make. A medium POS with a couple of guns, refinery, factories and hangars is not really much of a threat but can be a valuable tool for people who want to try and live in W-space for a while. Even a single Deathstar isnt a threat to anyone unless you warp to it you know. It doesnt lock down a system, it just locks down its moon for as long as people can be arsed to fuel it.
Kaeldjin Zendergrim	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:02:00 - [696] Problem I see Timer and mass limits seems a bit bulky features as is, and redundant... like other posters hinted (clansworth's stability idea for instance), there are more elegant possibilities to jugulate the flow/output of a (unstable) wormhole. Possible workaround/solution Along both the initial design idea and abit of pseudo-science : we could assume an unstable wormhole is failing/crushing on itself (aka degrading with time on its own). In "game" terms : instability (in kg/s), a measure of initial allowed mass declining with each (time) tick passing. Thus, since the wormhole constantly decay, your window of opportunity for leaving the W-System through that same entrance is slowly pouring down as long as you stay in (risk vs reward anyone?)... Truly I like how "being pushed by clock" boosts on the already existing rush of adrenaline of unknown space (wrong decision making, pressure, hastiness...). Final estimated countdown available on close inspection or probing (or whatever new skill will yield intricate knowledge of wormhole stuffs to our characters), calculations made by onboard comp. Foreseen advantages No more stranded wormholes with big timer left and too-low mass to be "usable" (by anything barring a couple pods ). You could even try to haste its closing down by jumping in and out (like confirmed by devs, that "mechanic" not changing), or just watch/guard it as goes off naturally. More "urgency" between the discovery/exploration and the "proper" use of it. Spying mini-game As a natural process the decay is predictable, thus allowing people to check from time to time if anything went through since last check (decay hopping down for those who'll notice). An indication of mass that went trough could be then manually done for those willing to. I'm not sure if devs answered or hinted about cloaked ships going through worm-travel and staying cloaked, or about post-travel auto-cloak, or even visual clue of a "jump" (sip-in?) for that matter. Optional fireworks The final "shutdown" of a wormhole could even be potentially harmful (both sides? last entry-point? last exit-point?)... something similat to a bomb? ...or when instability means instability (like any kiddo playing with the fabric of the universe would know very well by now ). The bigger the initial mass, the more dangerous the final showdown to bypassers. Yeah I must admit, boom after a countdown is neat. Local support I'm all for new "logistic platforms" to anchor in space, small in size but providing a limited reprocessing and manufacturing unit, with a cargo the size of a huge container. Actually I could envision it as a form of enhanced container. On the other end of logistics, I'm not a fan of local channel as it is in non-empire space... seeing it replaced by multiple systems, something like : enhanced scanning system onboard scanner able to link with CONCORD in high and low sec to provide up-to-date intel on the state of the solar system and its spacedwellers (local channel count and details indeed). anchorable lookout towers in non-empire. hackable stargate network (local, constellation, jump ranges, region depending on skills) to provide intel on demand (for a while). delayed local would be a realy good step in the right direction IMO. Hurray to the devs! Playing the game in and out since 2005, this year will be awesome for EvE, thanks guy, keep up the good work.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:04:00 - [697] Three questions: 1. Perma death? Nice I didn't need that 80m SP char anyway. 2. Enter hisec and exit 0.0 sec? Excellent! 3. Cookies in my jar? I would never!
DJTheBaron Caldari FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:06:00 - [698] Good job by the developers posting feedback and mr whisper there for his out of hours work in keeping the thread on track with answers. The credit crunch must be keeping him at home instead of on the town hanging around the drink link in botanic avenue. Im looking forward to the evilness behind the eve gate that the jove have been running from and gave us pod technology to defend ourselves against! Mabye? But has anyone thought that the new entities living in w-space could be very interesting, with wormholes featuring some kind of resistance by structures or entities. Perhaps tech 3 will have some w-space abilities? Anything from fighting the new npcs with their own technology to being able to thrust into and out of that big gaping hole, in space, as many times are you like?
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:06:00 - [699] Originally by: Pattern Clarc From information provided to us from within this page, SHC have deduced that the upper limit for wormhole Mass-Stability would be roughly the mass of one Mothership. Mass-stability of wormholes of this magnitude would probably be extremely rare and more common from wormholes that lead out from 0.0. If the mass-stability of a wormhole equalled that of 1 Aeon, here are the numbers for the ships that can be transported before the wormhole collapses. Geddon = 11(.7) Harbinger = 91(.6) Sac = 100(.7) Crusader = 1178(.6) Remember, these numbers are pure speculation and have been deduced purely on comments made by the CCP since the recent blog For the rare (large) types of WH's. More common ones would be smaller - and therefore allow smaller ships.
Ekil Ix Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:09:00 - [700] But but but The most important question: are the npcs in w-space aliens? cylons? or just bored joves ?

Todeszone III	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:14:00 - [701] as far as i understand this, it is very probable to happen that you enter a Wormhole lets say in Outer Ring, then it closes (because of you being to stupid to get back in time to it) so you are waiting for the next Wormhole... and end up in deepest 0.0? eg Cobalt Edge? and get wtfbbqed there?
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:20:00 - [702] will we be able to jump capitals in or out of these places? ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Haywoode Jablome The Templars Knights	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:22:00 - [703] Remember they wanted to have some PVP systems that were equally divided, like the tourny? like instances? Now there you have it Mass and time, take Mass size for example: - Max 2 bs'es and 2 cruisers or - 6 cruisers or - well whatever mass takes to total amount of 6 cruisers wormhole collapses and you are stuck, 1 cruiser suicides in the wormhole, new wormhole entrance for 1 extra cruiser (leftover mass size for the wormhole) Now consider trying to hold that space with some miners and a pos wormhole mass is - 1 rorq - 5 haulers - 5 miners You enter the wormhole with the above ships wormhole entrance closes because of maximum mass reached You mine and mine and mine inside the closed wormhole You suicide 1 hauler and the wormhole entrance appears, for 1 hauler You haul your stuff out of the wormhole with 1 hauler from inside to outside and 1 hauler comes into the wormhole, then the wormhole entrance collapses again Wormhole safe again, since the max has reached again because of the hauler that was coming from the outside going inside the wormhole. Timing here is essential Rince and repeat Profit.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:23:00 - [704] MOAR DETAILS! D: New Eden Research, where your research gets done!
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:35:00 - [705] Edited by: adriaans on 27/01/2009 13:35:04 just thought of something.. will bubbles be allowed in w-space? as i HATE bubbles....:( if not, guess its time to start getting lots of jumpclones... edit: spelling -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! Originally by: UMEE if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail. QFT!
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:35:00 - [706] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 27/01/2009 13:35:59 Originally by: Red 7 Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 13:13:23 Edited by: Red 7 on 27/01/2009 13:11:49 Originally by: Hugh Ruka Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 27/01/2009 12:54:12 read the devgblog, scanned all the bluebar posts. looks ok so far ... this I got frome the bluebars: 2. no cynos in W space It appears that cynos to/from W-Space to K-Space isn't possible - but cynos within W-Space might be possible. As for the black ops bridge - I would imagine they would suffer the same problem as cynos. Well as I said, from the dev posts I only saw one mention of cynos not being allowed in W space and labeled exploit (I think it was Greyscale). Anyway is cyno travel would only be 1-way (to W space) then I don't see as much of a problem. What I want to get to is some kind of colonisation. We cannot build stargates by ourselves, but jump drive mechanics allow us to lessen that burden. So covert cyno bound mechanics could be allowed as the ship options are limited to covops, recons, blackops and transports. no capital ship jumping ... (EDIT: basicaly I am trying to find out if I should start training for a BlackOps or the Orca for W space exploration) --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:42:00 - [707] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Raymon James its what 6 weeks untill this goes live and you havent gotten to that bit yet? yeep! For Apocrypha we have been split into teams, each with its own programmers, designers and QA staff (we're working according to Agile and Scrum project management methodology). In the last six weeks my team have built a new scanning system, added 2500 solar systems to New Eden, worked out the mechanics to get pilots there and back and designed the implementation of the game content in the W-systems. The artists attached to the team have created some amazing models and content which is unlike anything you have seen before. You may think six weeks is not a lot of time, but my experience from the last month and a half is that my team is able to complete their tasks and then some. They have responded within a day to problems requiring reworking of game designs. They even managed to put in some improvements that were not strictly speaking part of their remit, simply because they realised it was possible and decided to go for it without ever losing sight of the main objective. I am extremely proud of what we have achieved and I have full confidence in their abilities to not only finish this feature but adapt it based on feedback. We have six weeks to release. This feature will be awesome. CCP Whisper, little OT but I am Certified ScrumMaster and with your permission I would like to use this quote in my presentations about SCRUM --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Jenna Malone Caldari W-hat LLC	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:44:00 - [708] When do you guys intend to submit this to a massive test, i.e. Sisi? It's just 6 weeks to shelf date, practically leaving more like 4 weeks for any testing at all. Unless you're intending to ship an outdated client and have all new customers download a big patch right after install.
Hya Bam Minmatar Deep Space Construction United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:06:00 - [709] Edited by: Hya Bam on 27/01/2009 14:10:49 Originally by: Kaeldjin Zendergrim Edited by: Kaeldjin Zendergrim on 27/01/2009 13:15:16 Problem I see Timer and mass limits seems a bit bulky features as is, and redundant... like other posters hinted (clansworth's stability idea for instance), there are more elegant possibilities to jugulate the flow/output of a (unstable) wormhole. Possible workaround/solution Along both the initial design idea and abit of pseudo-science : we could assume an unstable wormhole is failing/crushing on itself (aka degrading with time on its own). In "game" terms : instability (in kg/s), a measure of initial allowed mass declining with each (time) tick passing. Thus, since the wormhole constantly decay, your window of opportunity for leaving the W-System through that same entrance is slowly pouring down as long as you stay in (risk vs reward anyone?)... Truly I like how "being pushed by clock" boosts on the already existing rush of adrenaline of unknown space (wrong decision making, pressure, hastiness...). Final estimated countdown available on close inspection or probing (or whatever new skill will yield intricate knowledge of wormhole stuffs to our characters), calculations made by onboard comp. Foreseen advantages No more stranded wormholes with big timer left and too-low mass to be "usable" (by anything barring a couple pods ). You could even try to haste its closing down by jumping in and out (like confirmed by devs, that "mechanic" not changing), or just watch/guard it as goes off naturally. More "urgency" between the discovery/exploration and the "proper" use of it. Spying mini-game As a natural process the decay is predictable, thus allowing people to check from time to time if anything went through since last check (decay hopping down for those who'll notice). An indication of mass that went trough could be then manually done for those willing to. I'm not sure if devs answered or hinted about cloaked ships going through worm-travel and staying cloaked, or about post-travel auto-cloak, or even visual clue of a "jump" (sip-in?) for that matter. Optional fireworks The final "shutdown" of a wormhole could even be potentially harmful (both sides? last entry-point? last exit-point?)... something similat to a bomb? ...or when instability means instability (like any kiddo playing with the fabric of the universe would know very well by now ). The bigger the initial mass, the more dangerous the final showdown to bypassers. Yeah I must admit, boom after a countdown is neat. First of all, I love the idea of wormhole exploration and completely unknown space. I'll even go so far as to admit that Voyager was my favorite Star Trek series for precisely that reason. I can't wait! Now, to the quote. I totally agree that having a decaying mass makes more sense than a mass limit + timer. It also means that you have to chose between a "light" op with more time to play, versus a "heavy" op with strict time constraints (or a 1 way ticket!) Also, it should be allowable to exceed the mass limit of the wormhole at risking a cataclysmic collapse that could severely damage and/or destroy the ship and/or pod of the pilot that collapsed it, depending on how much mass was exceeded. Fireworks! This also would provide a discouragement to people entering/exiting to purposely collapse the wormhole, as, if they don't take into consideration the decaying mass limit properly, it'll be a pretty big "OOPS", and a "pretty" oops for any observers, hehehe. --- "All your boot.ini are belong to us." -CCP
Aynen	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:07:00 - [710] Do NPCs spawn and respawn in wormhole space so that if you do get stuck, you'll have an infinite supply of NPCs to shoot?

Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:16:00 - [711] Originally by: CCP Prism X ...Oh and I know there is a veldnaught there. You can think of that as a tourist attraction (and if you need to fit it into my weird analogy: It's a nudist colony that was founded before nekkid bodies were made illegal). We know you guys know about the Veldnaught. what your thinking of here is refered to as a Grandfather clause. and no they are not automatic. Depending on the Jurisdiction they may have to be put into the revised law or can be made subject to expiration (IE a bar location rule change can have a grandfather clause that expires after a fix time period or be made non transferable to new owners)

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:18:00 - [712] Second blog is being written, but in the meantime, a whole load of questions answered... Originally by: MotherMoon 1) Is this a hint at permi-death? 2) Getting stuck? Is there a chance that you could get stuck out in wormhole space? If you can that would be AWESOME. I don't know why but having to wait 30 mins for the next sub-system wave to hit the system would be a blast. 3) Interstellar mapping Any idea how the new backgrounds are going to work with this? will we be able to kind map out these new systems by using advanced math and directional logic of stellar bodies to map out this new space? 4) wormholes on the overview? Quote: There is also the chance that you could stumble across a route through wormhole space that links two widely separated areas of known space and gives you a lucrative, fast trade route for as long as the wormholes stay open. 5) I'm dead and in a pod! OK so if our on-board scanner is going to be useless, what happen if our probe ship gets killed.. are you stuck in wormhole space until we commit suicide? 1) No :P 2) It's possible to get yourself into a situation where you don't know where any open wormholes are and you don't have the ability to probe down an exit. At this point you're fairly stuck, but it's an avoidable situation if you play smart 3) The way the backgrounds we're getting are working, this isn't going to be possible yet, no. 4) Nope 5) We're still thinking about this. My heart says "you have an up-to-date clone, right?", but my head's worrying about getting ritually sacrificed by the GMs for the petition load. Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 26/01/2009 13:06:07 Great news, now are those new NPCs one of the old races that vanished without reason like the Yan Jung or some either unknown or lesser known race like the Enheduanni, perhaps even dare I say it Aliens. No comment. Originally by: Pattern Clarc question Do you need probes to find the exit wormhole? Yes, you do, and yes, this means you can get stuck Originally by: XxKatharsisxX can i see what kind of security the exiting systems will be?? Currently your ship's computer will give you a fairly strong hint as to what sort of space a wormhole's likely to lead to when you approach it. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Mark my words, whatever probing scheme they come up with for the new system, it won't be as effective as what we're currently using to kill mission runners (i.e. racial quest probes). I haven't run the numbers properly, but currently it's possible that a skilled prober will be a bit faster at this under the new system. For missions where the deadspace site is significantly above/below the plane (where it's extremely difficult to get near with an exploration probe currently) it'll likely be significantly faster than currently. Originally by: maarud Will a system have multiple worm holes in and out. IE: I'm camping a worm hole thinking its the only one into a system, mean while, another one has opened up and ships have come through there. This is quite possible, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Originally by: maarud 2 Probe launchers to one ship? The "big launcher" (which requires the traditional 220tf CPU) is the all-singing all-dancing model, capable of probing ships and exploration sites, and launching moon probes. If you can fit one of these there's no reason to fit a second launcher. Originally by: Wrayeth You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? No.


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:19:00 - [713] Originally by: yunger If I do decide to take my carrier and pve alt on a vacation in wormhole space and the gate collapses behind me. About how often will new wormholes open? Will I be better of abandoning my carrier and jumping around try to find my way out because next gate will open in 2-3 months or should I stay there seeing there will be a new gate within a week or 2? And how does is connect to normal space, If the wormhole closes and reopens will I be coming out in the other side of the galaxy or in the general area I started from? There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go. Originally by: Miss President Next, please consider that exploration career has always involved lots of specialization. By the sound of your blog "making it faster and easier to use" you make it sound like EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMA will be able to do it. The probe system is sort of moving in two directions at once. The current system is difficult to learn but once you know how to do it the only "hard" part is making midwarp bookmarks to cover awkward planets. It's also got a very high effective barrier of entry skill-wise if you want to find things in a reasonably quick time. The new system should be easier to learn to the point where you know roughly what you're trying to do and roughly how to do it, and will have a lower barrier to entry skill-wise. However, those skills will still give people an edge and, more importantly, the speed at which you can find things should vary much more significantly according to the player-skill of the person doing the probing. We want everyone to be able to have a go and succeed (eventually), but we also want people who've taken the time to skill up and learn the system to have a noticeable advantage. Originally by: Sanche Tehkeli Question : will ships in cargo and maintenance bay counted toward the critical mass to collapse a WH? And fitted and cargo'ed modules? Will it be possible to cancal a jump through a WH, or flying too close to one will get you sucked away (would be fun.) No. The only mass that counts is your current ship mass. If you use maintenance bays and so on to move extra ships, that's considered intelligent use of mechanics. We've not finalized activation yet; we have discussed doing it by proximity, and it might well go in like that Originally by: Exlegion How about new skills that can offer better control over wormholes? Say, a skill to increase stability of wormhole (more time), a skill to increase mass allowed, skill to increase chances of finding good wormholes, etc. Please tell me you're considering it. Not for Apocrypha, but maybe in future... Originally by: Kile Kitmoore Any thoughts about giving corps. the ability to build some sort of gate/wormhole amplifier? Providing either a permanent (until someone blows it up or corp. does not maintain it) or expands the time/mass allowed for the wormhole to remain open. Not for Apocrypha, but this is something that we've discussed and are... intrigued by Originally by: Des Jardin 1. Non-T3 science ships -- any news on whether any will be deployed. 2. What happens to old launchers, implants, rigs, probes, etc.? 3. Looks like the old exploration skills will still be useful, but would like some verification. 1) No 2) Rigs, implants and ship bonuses will hopefully be repurposed to make them roughly as useful as they are now. Launchers and probes (and their blueprints) are being automatically converted to the new types. 3) Yes. The aim is again to make them roughly as useful as they are now, so Signal Acquisition will remain the most useful skill, for example.


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:20:00 - [714] Originally by: Pattern Clarc I hope your not adding a bunch of t1 mins (no matter how valuble) that can be mined in this region - just look at what the drone regions did to low sec ore prices.. The drone region issue was a result of being able to "mine with guns", rather than the addition of new asteroid belts. We're not repeating that mistake, but there will be mineable resources in there. Originally by: Merin Ryskin I'm a pirate with a covops alt. While waiting for targets, I have a set of exploration probes out on my alt, giving me free profit as well as scanning down any targets that happen to show up. From your description, it sounds like this is going to change... will I no longer be able to scan for both deadspace sites (and wormholes?) and ships at the same time? Not only can you scan for both with the "big" launcher, it'll be easier in certain important aspects. More details when we do a blog on probing specifically. Originally by: Arkady Sadik Oh. So you can't be "lost in wormhole space" in the sense that the only wormhole from your current system leads to other wormhole space? In the easier reaches of W-space, no. In the harder, more profitable areas, this is entirely possible and indeed fairly likely. Originally by: Des Jardin Why does this make me think of "You are lost in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike." Originally by: Hoshi What about bookmarks? If I create one in a system will it still be there and usable if I get back. If that works you could use bookmarks to index the systems to check if you have been there before etc. Yes and yes. Originally by: Erakyn Love the changes and can't wait for them to be implemented. But as an owner of both a Sister's Recon Probe Launcher, and a Sister's Scan Launcher.... Will these items be replaced with new faction equivalents? Yes. The existing Sisters launchers will all turn into the Sisters version of the "big" launcher. Any ship which could use either launcher previously can use the big version under the new system, and as it's better we decided that that's what we'd give everyone. The "little" exploration-only launcher uses a lot less CPU but is considerably less useful. Originally by: croxis Will this, someday, allow player built stargates to be made? Maybe. Originally by: Prometheus Exenthal So... are wormholes going to be like FW beacons in he sense that once they are found everyone can see them? No. Originally by: dojocan81 lets say player a finds a wormhole in 0.0, player b one in 0.1 low sec is it possible, that 2 or more people from different corners of new eden, can catch up the same wormhole entrance ? or is it totally random ? or do wormhole system only have "one" entrance ? Yes, this is entirely possible. Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha And this gets to the crux of the matter for me. Yes, probe launchers can be fit on any ship, but currently CovOps are the only class that is truly effective with probes. From all that I have read, you are destroying the utility of that ship. Plus all the skills exploration pilots have invested great time and effort honing, well they are utterly redundant or useless for wormhole exploration. We're aiming to continue making covert ops ships the optimal platform for exploration (at least for now), the skills will all continue to be useful, and while the player skills learnt will not directly transfer most of the time, anyone who learnt the old system will have a big head-start getting to grips with the new one. Player skill will I think be a bigger factor under the new system than the old one. To use the old cliche, it should be easy to learn, but hard to master - one of the goals of the probing overhaul was to make life more interesting for existing explorers, and I think we're on our way to accomplishing that.


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:22:00 - [715] Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 27/01/2009 14:25:30 Originally by: Heroldyn just for clarification, what is the likelyness of an exit-wormwhole leading to insecure/0.0 space from a wormwhole-system entered from high security space ? [/b] Low. Not zero, but not that high. Originally by: Mikal Drey if its possible to take an orca through a wormhole to this new space but a BS was restricted (mass/class etc) is/will there be a system in place to stop the orca taking a packaged BS (50km) inside its cargo bay, passing through the wormhole, then jettisoning the ships directly into space. IIRC ships jettisoned from cargo auto assemble in space. ergo completely bypassing ship size restriction This is recommended behavior - if you can use maintenance bays to maximize the capacity of wormholes, you should definitely do so! Originally by: Clansworth I am not much of a role-player, but I do see value in stuff being somewhat based on some sort of pseudo-science or whatever. Basically, when the game provides a restriction, the reasoning for said restriction should not be, 'because that wouldn't make this the way we envisioned it'. My first example of this is the Jump Clones. Basically, the reason you say they will not be allowed is because the only way in and out will be through the wormholes. That's all well and good, but is inconsistent with the fact that normal medical clones will still function. What strange phenomenon could there be that would prevent jump clones, but allow emergency medical clone jumps? Off the top of my head, exotic radiation in these new systems makes non-destructive brain-scanning extremely dangerous, as the slower process used in jump clones to avoid killing the clone is very vulnerable to certain radiation types interfering with the instruments and corrupting the scan. Originally by: DaemonBarber Will there be ice? Under the current plan, no. Originally by: weebil What I want to know is the wormhole universe persistant...eg once you are into the wormhole universe, are there the same connections to the same neighbouring wormhole sysems, or do the wormholes that connect systems inside the wormiverse come and go like the ones connecting to new eden will? It's all entirely dynamic in there, there are no fixed connections. Originally by: ZombieFan 69er will my insure still be in affect if my ship gets popped??? Yes. Originally by: Ikar Kaltin You say that wormholes will disapear when they reach either 0mass or 0timer, how likely is the first? If ships dont have enough mass you have said they wont be able to jump, and I imagine its going to be very rare for there to be exactly enough mass to shut one down by jumping through it, it will just reach a very small number, effectivly making the wormhole unusable but still spawned until the timer drops. And will a despawn of a wormhole in a system trigger a new wormhole to spawn in the same system (especially relevent in wormhole systems) or will you have to keep searching and waiting for a new wormhole to appear? We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. In wormhole systems, a collapsing exit will always spawn a new exit. In K-space a collapsing wormhole will respawn elsewhere in the cluster.


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:23:00 - [716] Originally by: Cailais "Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions". Clearly you could then create a mobile 'bookmark' of sorts to manouveur a fleet using this process. So, could anything be implemented to allow such movement without the use of probes? You can't warp to probes, and you can't scan for them either. Otherwise making insanely deep-space bookmarks would be very easy. Originally by: Illectroculus Defined So, have a mass cap which represents the largest object that can go through, this would have no relation to the mass limit, so wormholes could be relatively stable but only allow smaller ships through. Originally by: Protheroe In that case there would be the mass limit, that would determine how many trips you could make with a certain ship, and the bandwidth, that would limit which ships could traverse the wormhole. This is such a good idea we added it to the design a couple of months ago Originally by: LegendaryFrog How do you plan on addressing what has already become somewhat of a balance issue with ammo usage. It would seem to me that these relatively closed off areas give even more of an advantage to the Amarr player who needs not worry about storing ammo (thus taking up precious cargo space to be able to actually gain something from this new space) and not being able to fire his guns. The downside to Amarr ships is that they're particularly vulnerable to capacitor-draining modules on for example NPCs. I think this will end up balancing out. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Will w-space systems always have a wormhole available for use? Will w-space have multiple wormholes active at the same time, so that you can come in from one side and out another? Or even have a w-space 'hub' with multiple random links? Will wormholes be more common in 0.0 and lowsec than in high sec, with respect to the total percentage of wormholes open at any given point in the day? Will you be able to use bubbles in w-space? Or HICs? Or dictors? How about bubbling one side of a wormhole? Or the other? Or both? Will cloaks be able to be used in w-space? Or near wormholes? They aren't able to be used in some deadspaces due to clouds etc. I know that it's been said that you can't cyno into a w-space system, but what about out? I'm assuming not. What about BlackOps and covert cynos? If a wormhole opens that has enough mass to get a ship in (carrier for example) will the next/future wormhole that opens be big enough (mass wise) to get it out? Will wormhole time duration be a function of how much mass capacity it has and how much as traveled through it (i.e. great amount of mass, extremely stable, or the other way around: high mass, less stable, low mass, more stable (longer lasting))? Yes., there's always a wormhole somewhere. May not always go where you want though. The links are random, so all kinds of configurations can occur. No, they're equally common all over, but biased towards linking to richer/poorer space depending on their source sec status. Currently, yes. Everything that works in normal 0.0 works in wormhole space, with the exception of jump drives, cynos, sovereignty and clone jumping, although the latter's a subject of ongoing discussion. No, and no, black ops have no specialist role in this area yet. Maybe, maybe not. It's a risk you take with bigger ships. Time and mass are entirely independent variables that we can change as we wish; one of the things we're keeping an eye on is how easy it is to get together a gang big enough to make good use of a certain wormhole.


CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:23:00 - [717] Originally by: Nyphur Doesn't answer the question. I asked whether the exit point in a system will just change for each new wormhole or whether it'll change with each jump through a single wormhole. As in, when I use a wormhole to jump into a system and someone follows me, do we both turn up at the same place? Once a wormhole has opened the connection is consistent until it closes. Yes, you both end up in the same place. Originally by: Styre Blixtsnabb The probe revamp looks very interesting; however, a few questions if I may. 1. Will adjusting the range of your probes have adverse affects on your results? I.e. Longer range probes generally gave results with a lower accuracy and a shorter range probe would then have to be used. I know you also mentioned Triangulation how does this apply to that as well? 2. In response to another player you said that probes had a lifetime and in your blog you said that they could be recalled for use at a later time. Do the probes have a definite life time that they carry over even after being recalled? Do they become totally unusable after a certain amount of time? 3. Will a blog be written about the new system later that goes into even greater detail? 4. Finally and most importantly will there be Pie? 1) Yes - the bigger you make your probe, the weaker it is. 2) Nope, we're not persisting this value currently. Once you recover the probe the timer resets. 3) Yes, there will be a probing blog, and it will explain stuff like how the triangulation works 4) No, pie is not compatible with the dark, dangerous nature of EVE. We replaced it with Black Forest Gateaux, which meets the necessary criteria.

An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:25:00 - [718] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Wrayeth You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? No. I assume I know the answer to this, but I want to clarify. We've been talking in and out. But what about one wormhole system to another wormhole system via cyno? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:26:00 - [719] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Wrayeth You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? No. I assume I know the answer to this, but I want to clarify. We've been talking in and out. But what about one wormhole system to another wormhole system via cyno? No.

Inara Subaka Caldari the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:32:00 - [720] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: yunger If I do decide to take my carrier and pve alt on a vacation in wormhole space and the gate collapses behind me. About how often will new wormholes open? Will I be better of abandoning my carrier and jumping around try to find my way out because next gate will open in 2-3 months or should I stay there seeing there will be a new gate within a week or 2? And how does is connect to normal space, If the wormhole closes and reopens will I be coming out in the other side of the galaxy or in the general area I started from? There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go. This got me thinking about a possible issue, say you have a capital ship in W-space and the only wormhole out leads to say... Jita. Do you have to wait on that wormhole to expire, or are capitals coming back to hisec? Especially with this reply... Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Wrayeth You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? No.

DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:33:00 - [721] OMG Whisper stole both Greyscale and Prism X!!!
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:35:00 - [722] Edited by: Raymon James on 27/01/2009 14:38:08 Edited by: Raymon James on 27/01/2009 14:37:45 Edited by: Raymon James on 27/01/2009 14:37:09 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Second blog is being written, but in the meantime, a whole load of questions answered... Originally by: MotherMoon 5) I'm dead and in a pod! OK so if our on-board scanner is going to be useless, what happen if our probe ship gets killed.. are you stuck in wormhole space until we commit suicide? 5) Simple solution, make the probe launcher use a new "Probe launcher only" slot thats found on all ships and make avalible a cheep crap low skill low fitting requirment long scantime probe thats fairly chunky(5X the size of the next smallest probe)and launcher avalible.(heck just make it a probe drone if you need to, or deployable from the cargo bay and non recoverable) if you need to make it so that useing it sucks the cap dry on any ship to online it.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:36:00 - [723] Edited by: Raymon James on 27/01/2009 14:36:27 duplicate post sorry

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:36:00 - [724] Originally by: Inara Subaka Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: yunger If I do decide to take my carrier and pve alt on a vacation in wormhole space and the gate collapses behind me. About how often will new wormholes open? Will I be better of abandoning my carrier and jumping around try to find my way out because next gate will open in 2-3 months or should I stay there seeing there will be a new gate within a week or 2? And how does is connect to normal space, If the wormhole closes and reopens will I be coming out in the other side of the galaxy or in the general area I started from? There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go. This got me thinking about a possible issue, say you have a capital ship in W-space and the only wormhole out leads to say... Jita. Do you have to wait on that wormhole to expire, or are capitals coming back to hisec? There's value on each wormhole that determines the biggest ship mass that can go through the wormhole in one go, independent of the overall mass budget. All wormholes linking to hisec have this value set so that capital ships can't go through. In the situation you describe, you'll just have to wait until a big enough wormhole appears for you. Wormholes - serious business.

Inara Subaka Caldari the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:39:00 - [725] Originally by: CCP Greyscale There's value on each wormhole that determines the biggest ship mass that can go through the wormhole in one go, independent of the overall mass budget. All wormholes linking to hisec have this value set so that capital ships can't go through. In the situation you describe, you'll just have to wait until a big enough wormhole appears for you. Wormholes - serious business. Just checking, I was kinda hoping you were going to let capitals occasionally reenter hisec... oh whelp.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:41:00 - [726] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Inara Subaka Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: yunger There's value on each wormhole that determines the biggest ship mass that can go through the wormhole in one go, independent of the overall mass budget. All wormholes linking to hisec have this value set so that capital ships can't go through. In the situation you describe, you'll just have to wait until a big enough wormhole appears for you. Wormholes - serious business. So bascialy its posible for a Wspace to have (for example) 2 gates, one only lets in frigates and the other lets in Battlecruisers and orcas?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:42:00 - [727] I know this would open somewhat of a Pandora's box of spam, but would it be possible to throw up signposts, or beacons that be that people can read with a showinfo? I think it would be an interesting dynamic, sort of like the graffiti in the saferooms in Left 4 Dead. It would beat the heck out of giant secure containers too. Or would that somehow take away from the experience of it all being empty - never before seen space?
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:44:00 - [728] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Wrayeth You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? No. I assume I know the answer to this, but I want to clarify. We've been talking in and out. But what about one wormhole system to another wormhole system via cyno? No. so no other option other than wormhole. so I can start training for an Orca instead of a Sin ... thanks for info :-) will wormholes have an activation effect on the other side ? like gates that shoot the ship into the target system ? this makes gate camping easy as you know that somebody entered. will this be true for wormholes ?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:45:00 - [729] Originally by: Gamer4liff I know this would open somewhat of a Pandora's box of spam, but would it be possible to throw up signposts, or beacons that be that people can read with a showinfo? I think it would be an interesting dynamic, sort of like the graffiti in the saferooms in Left 4 Dead. It would beat the heck out of giant secure containers too. Or would that somehow take away from the experience of it all being empty - never before seen space? Frankly, I like the idea of player settled. But god knows everything I throw up is going to be a lie.
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:46:00 - [730] Originally by: Gamer4liff I know this would open somewhat of a Pandora's box of spam, but would it be possible to throw up signposts, or beacons that be that people can read with a showinfo? I think it would be an interesting dynamic, sort of like the graffiti in the saferooms in Left 4 Dead. It would beat the heck out of giant secure containers too. Or would that somehow take away from the experience of it all being empty - never before seen space? Can I be a little bit anal here? I don't think we should be able to drop many sorts of items at all, I don't even think we should be able to deploy POSes, for example. The whole point of exploration seems to be to give EVE a bigger feel, but, if people are always dropping trash, it's going to fill up very quickly, and that, imo, is rather boring. I understand that refueling a POS will be difficult, but even just having a POS there would, imo, break the mood.

Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:51:00 - [731] Originally by: CCP Greyscale There's value on each wormhole that determines the biggest ship mass that can go through the wormhole in one go, independent of the overall mass budget. All wormholes linking to hisec have this value set so that capital ships can't go through. In the situation you describe, you'll just have to wait until a big enough wormhole appears for you. Wormholes - serious business. Will this value prevent orcas, jump freighters, and freighters from also passing through? I'd like to explore for an empire to w-space to 0.0 link to create a quick logistics route to move freighters of stuff through from empire.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:52:00 - [732] Edited by: teji on 27/01/2009 14:55:30 Edited by: teji on 27/01/2009 14:52:52 Originally by: CCP Greyscale No, they're equally common all over, but biased towards linking to richer/poorer space depending on their source sec status. highsec/lowsec/nullsec or truesec/piratesov? Basing it on the first is good game design the second is just dumb.
LaserX Caldari Legion of Steel Lions	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:55:00 - [733] Originally by: Aeo IV Originally by: Gamer4liff I know this would open somewhat of a Pandora's box of spam, but would it be possible to throw up signposts, or beacons that be that people can read with a showinfo? I think it would be an interesting dynamic, sort of like the graffiti in the saferooms in Left 4 Dead. It would beat the heck out of giant secure containers too. Or would that somehow take away from the experience of it all being empty - never before seen space? Can I be a little bit anal here? I don't think we should be able to drop many sorts of items at all, I don't even think we should be able to deploy POSes, for example. The whole point of exploration seems to be to give EVE a bigger feel, but, if people are always dropping trash, it's going to fill up very quickly, and that, imo, is rather boring. I understand that refueling a POS will be difficult, but even just having a POS there would, imo, break the mood. I agree on this, tho I'm okay with POS. It's just a bit annoying when you jump into W-Space and see a GSC named like "JUMP CLONE 10M PLZ CONTACT SOMEONE" or "AHAHAAAA I JUST CAME TO THIS SYSTEM". I think that there should be lots of effects like deadspace so we have the actual feeling of getting into somewhere totally unpredictable.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:56:00 - [734] Originally by: CCP Greyscale 5) We're still thinking about this. My heart says "you have an up-to-date clone, right?", but my head's worrying about getting ritually sacrificed by the GMs for the petition load. Your sacrifice has been greatly appreciated. And once we can wrestle the head back from the GMs, it will be put on display at a honorary position in Madame Tussauds Wax Museum. Greatly looking forward to wormspace with no padding.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:56:00 - [735] Ok New question to greyscale Do wormholes work like gates? With similar aggression mechanics?? If i'm warpscambled can I still jump through? How big is the jump zone etc? And how does that square with RP and lore? Or.. should I just wait and see? And if so, when will we be able to play with this on Sisi?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:57:00 - [736] 1. Will the systems be shown on the map? 2. Is there a special naming technique for the systems, or will it be the random letter-number way? 3. Who's deciding on names so I can bribe said person with bree to name a system after my left toe?

An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:58:00 - [737] Originally by: Chribba 1. Will the systems be shown on the map? 2. Is there a special naming technique for the systems, or will it be the random letter-number way? 3. Who's deciding on names so I can bribe said person with bree to name a system after my left toe? 1.) They said they're not showing on the map, not even a "You are Here" in blank space. 2.) No names 3.) See 2.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:58:00 - [738] Are the duration time and allowed transportation mass of a wormhole linked with the potential profit of the W-system (true sec. status, available moon minerals, etc.)?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:59:00 - [739] Originally by: An Anarchyyt 1.) They said they're not showing on the map, not even a "You are Here" in blank space. 2.) No names 3.) See 2. 1. Crap 2. Fail 3. Thanks for not making me need to go through 24 pages.

Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:08:00 - [740] SiSi?????

Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:10:00 - [741] Gegtting out of W-Space in a Pod can work if you can Bookmark the position of the wormhole. If a player looses his ship he'll still be able to get there and hope that it's still open. A failsafe method would be to automatically set the Autopilot to the wormhole that the player used to get in, once again, if the wormhole closes soon afterwards or the wormhole was leading to another W-Space you'll still be stranded.
Sable Moran Gallente Moran Light Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:21:00 - [742] Originally by: Brutal Bruno SiSi????? My thoughts exactly.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:24:00 - [743] Originally by: Brutal Bruno SiSi????? Last week in feb(points up/back several pages)
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:26:00 - [744] Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/01/2009 15:27:13 This is a pretty clever ploy from CCP to force high-sec players into low-sec or 0.0. Let me explain. Random 0.0 player does exploration, find a WH, warn his corp/alliance not to use it in order to keep the way open. Player does it's stuff, come back with loot. Rnadom high-sec player does exploration, find a WH. He can't warn people in the entry system not to use the same WH, since he can't speak to them, he's not in local anymore. Or he is, but might not be listened to. So one or more neutrals end up entering by the same WH. And, since it's 0.0 rules, it might be bubbled, so the random will think twice about just coming back. More neutrals, or back and forth traveling, and the WH collapse. Now things are getting interesting for the random high-sec dweller, odds are that he'll have a fair chunk of 0.0 or low-sec to travel back to safety. This is pure Evil CCP. :p ------------------------------------------
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:30:00 - [745] Edited by: Kessiaan on 27/01/2009 15:32:27 Hmm... very interesting. If there's no ice there's no (real) way to run a POS for a long period of time. Regardless of mass remaining you can always take 12 million m3 through, which roughly equates to a cruiser, though an Itty V would fit as well. At 250 million m3 the Orca most definitely won't fit through every wormhole, and many of those it does will end up being a one-way trip, but from the dev responses on the previous page it seems the wormhole only counts ship mass, and thus if you find a wormhole big enough it can carry 3 HACs, plus your covops, plus a couple of AFs, plus a shuttle or two (for scouting W system wormholes). That, along with its huge hold and ability to refit friendly ships in space - I can see it becoming the de-facto flagship for long multi-jump W space expeditions rather easily. It can carry a small POS, though I think for loot storage dropping a few cans at an SS would work better, and save a lot of cargo space. But if you happened across a dyspo moon you'd be out of luck. I also can also see highsec wormholes being the most dangerous of the bunch, at least on the jump in. I know if I find a wormhole in highsec, screw exploring it, I'll just have my alt drop a T2 large bubble on the other side and hang out in a HAC, have my cloaked alt sit on the highsec side, and see what comes through.
Mr John22ta Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:31:00 - [746] Edited by: Mr John22ta on 27/01/2009 15:32:26 Originally by: CCP Greyscale 5) We're still thinking about this. My heart says "you have an up-to-date clone, right?", but my head's worrying about getting ritually sacrificed by the GMs for the petition load. Have a warning before you go through a wormhole along the lines of "you are leaving the known solar system, and there is a possibility that should something bad happen, you wont be able to find your way out in a pod." But in a RP light kinda way. Just make it clear to players that if they get stuck, they will have to work their own way out. Not than anyone is gonna read it, like low sec warning's, but hey you gotta try. Anyway, your GM's could always reply with the usual "the logs shown nothing, closing your case, Next!" I am so excited about all this, this looks like a mega epic win. I wan to be able to fly out there, just me, my ship and my wit's. I want it to be challeging, and I want to get out the other side and think OMGWTF that was crazy, drop this stuff off and back I go. I say no to POS's, and all the crap that comes with it, you can do that in 0.0, so let it stay there. Let wormholes lead to something completely different, that wont be controlled by massive power blocks, making billions in riches for a few members, while locking out everyone else.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:37:00 - [747] Originally by: Shadowsword Now things are getting interesting for the random high-sec dweller, odds are that he'll have a fair chunk of 0.0 or low-sec to travel back to safety. Or he could simply travel through W-space systems till he find a highsec WH. He just have to be sure to never traverse a WH with a mass smaller than double his own...
Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:45:00 - [748] Originally by: Mr John22ta I say no to POS's, and all the crap that comes with it, you can do that in 0.0, so let it stay there. Let wormholes lead to something completely different, that wont be controlled by massive power blocks, making billions in riches for a few members, while locking out everyone else. It won't be that easy to make huge profits when the fuel runs out and the inhabitants have to wait for days or weeks till another Wormhole opens that leads into friendly (for them) space. Of course only if the forced closing of wormholes with repeated in-out gets prevented. And of course there are the NPCs which might not like that someone is trying to claim thier System and attack the POS - that would be cool :D Another cool mechanic would be if a POS gets abandoned or the owners loose it in some way and some weeks / months later other players find it and take it over because by then it'll be 100% offline, up for grabs for anyone that can repair it and supply fuel.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:48:00 - [749] Thanks for the answers! Really looking forward to this & waiting for exploration mechanic blog post.
Zoiewu	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:50:00 - [750] Haven't read the 25 pages, These are the two things that made me go OMG. Originally by: CCP Whisper While it is theoretically possible to move a control tower into wormhole space, set it up and maintain it, the logistical challenge and risks of fueling and defending a tower in a system with no permanent links to known space would be considerable. But then again the potential rewards are equally great. Intrested in these rewards Originally by: CCP Whisper There is also the chance that you could stumble across a route through wormhole space that links two widely separated areas of known space and gives you a lucrative, fast trade route for as long as the wormholes stay open. Or perhaps the route leads into the backyard of your sworn enemy...at which point you may be faced with the question of what ships to send through to maximise the potential of the mass allowance the wormholes possess.

DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:52:00 - [751] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/01/2009 15:27:13 This is a pretty clever ploy from CCP to force high-sec players into low-sec or 0.0. Let me explain. Random 0.0 player does exploration, find a WH, warn his corp/alliance not to use it in order to keep the way open. Player does it's stuff, come back with loot. Rnadom high-sec player does exploration, find a WH. He can't warn people in the entry system not to use the same WH, since he can't speak to them, he's not in local anymore. Or he is, but might not be listened to. So one or more neutrals end up entering by the same WH. And, since it's 0.0 rules, it might be bubbled, so the random will think twice about just coming back. More neutrals, or back and forth traveling, and the WH collapse. Now things are getting interesting for the random high-sec dweller, odds are that he'll have a fair chunk of 0.0 or low-sec to travel back to safety. This is pure Evil CCP. :p It get's better... Pirate scans down WH in highsec and enters it, bubbles entry point and waits... :) - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Trimutius III Amarr Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:55:00 - [752] Edited by: Trimutius III on 27/01/2009 15:55:32 How often will wormholes that are leading to know space will appear in wormhole solar system? It's possible to fit a POS in system and leave a Covert Ops with full load of probes in that system and wait until new wormhole appear that leads to known space. Then blockade runners go in system where is new wormhole with fuel and go back with valuable minerals. How long it may take waiting for another wormhole to appear?
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:56:00 - [753] Originally by: Cailais A W-POS has a very real risk of simply starving to death. C. If all wormholes are 2 way and all systems have a worm hole this is not the case. A hanger array can hold months and months of fuel. Hell an orca can hold almost 2 months of fuel. One freighter trip in to the POS and you're good for months. Sure the freighter might be trapped there for a couple days but you only need to move it once every 3-4 months. It's not an on demand solution but it's still a trivial solution. If you make K-W found through exploration two way but W-K one way that makes the supply problem hard.
Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:56:00 - [754] Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/01/2009 15:27:13 This is a pretty clever ploy from CCP to force high-sec players into low-sec or 0.0. Let me explain. Random 0.0 player does exploration, find a WH, warn his corp/alliance not to use it in order to keep the way open. Player does it's stuff, come back with loot. Rnadom high-sec player does exploration, find a WH. He can't warn people in the entry system not to use the same WH, since he can't speak to them, he's not in local anymore. Or he is, but might not be listened to. So one or more neutrals end up entering by the same WH. And, since it's 0.0 rules, it might be bubbled, so the random will think twice about just coming back. More neutrals, or back and forth traveling, and the WH collapse. Now things are getting interesting for the random high-sec dweller, odds are that he'll have a fair chunk of 0.0 or low-sec to travel back to safety. This is pure Evil CCP. :p It get's better... Pirate scans down WH in highsec and enters it, bubbles entry point and waits... :) Killed player tells his corp/everyone in local bout the WH and that theres a camper with a shiny-new-Bounty on his head waiting inside ...
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:57:00 - [755] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/01/2009 15:27:13 Rnadom high-sec player does exploration, find a WH. Wspace is not part of standard exploration. its a seperate mechanic in that once you scan down a wormhole you know its there and can either ignore it or go look to see whats there (kind of like the current Grav returns are in empire since I dont think anyone goes to them since the return on empire Gravy sights is currently worse than spending the same time mineing Veldspar) basicaly I suspect for almost all empire based explorers it will be a non starter for them since if they wanted to get into exploration with PvP they would already be doing it in 0.0 or in low sec to start with, not in some space that defacto is worse than knownspace 0.0 because you will not know if its a dead end system or one that also links straight to Tribute or Delve
Mistral Sud Minmatar Black Box Corp.	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:57:00 - [756] Edited by: Mistral Sud on 27/01/2009 16:00:13 Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. Does that mean i can always take a titan through a wormhole for a one way ride? srry i got it didnt understand the cutoff thingy :P
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:58:00 - [757] Thanks for the answer, Grayscale. I'm still wondering about my second question, about locking down a wormhole system. Originally by: me Let's say I find a wormhole and my corp's gang enter this new system. What's to stop me from scanning out all the wormholes in that system leading to other systems (essentially all the entrypoints to the system) and collapsing them? All it would require is to fly a ship back and forth through each wormhole found until it collapses. With careful selection of the ship used, you will always use a ship with enough mass to make just enough trips to collapse the wormhole while ensuring that the final "collapsing" trip is a trip back into the wormhole system. With regular effort to collapse entrances, could this not be used to lock down a wormhole system?
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 15:59:00 - [758] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto I'm sure that this will end up as a nerf to piracy in many ways. Probing will clearly be gutted. I fail to see how probes no longer being used up, probes being able to be placed anywhere and stacking of probes is gutting. All of these are clear buffs to the system.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:00:00 - [759] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/01/2009 16:00:00 Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/01/2009 15:27:13 This is a pretty clever ploy from CCP to force high-sec players into low-sec or 0.0. Let me explain. Random 0.0 player does exploration, find a WH, warn his corp/alliance not to use it in order to keep the way open. Player does it's stuff, come back with loot. Rnadom high-sec player does exploration, find a WH. He can't warn people in the entry system not to use the same WH, since he can't speak to them, he's not in local anymore. Or he is, but might not be listened to. So one or more neutrals end up entering by the same WH. And, since it's 0.0 rules, it might be bubbled, so the random will think twice about just coming back. More neutrals, or back and forth traveling, and the WH collapse. Now things are getting interesting for the random high-sec dweller, odds are that he'll have a fair chunk of 0.0 or low-sec to travel back to safety. This is pure Evil CCP. :p It get's better... Pirate scans down WH in highsec and enters it, bubbles entry point and waits... :) Wouldn't that be excruciatingly boring? Like, watching paint dry boring? I mean you'd have to camp for hours, days even, exploration is popular but not that popular. The real chance of somebody coming through would be way less than certain lowsec systems, and you'd have to keep your focus the whole time. I could see somebody luring people to a wormhole, and then ganking them on the other side, but pure camping a wormhole would just be beyond boring. Also you guys are awfully presumptuous to how highsec dwellers will react to this. I think that plenty of people will take on the exploration cause, and not just to be helpless victims.
JiJiCle Gallente Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:02:00 - [760] Edited by: JiJiCle on 27/01/2009 16:02:50 Originally by: DrAtomic Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/01/2009 15:27:13 This is a pretty clever ploy from CCP to force high-sec players into low-sec or 0.0. Let me explain. Random 0.0 player does exploration, find a WH, warn his corp/alliance not to use it in order to keep the way open. Player does it's stuff, come back with loot. Rnadom high-sec player does exploration, find a WH. He can't warn people in the entry system not to use the same WH, since he can't speak to them, he's not in local anymore. Or he is, but might not be listened to. So one or more neutrals end up entering by the same WH. And, since it's 0.0 rules, it might be bubbled, so the random will think twice about just coming back. More neutrals, or back and forth traveling, and the WH collapse. Now things are getting interesting for the random high-sec dweller, odds are that he'll have a fair chunk of 0.0 or low-sec to travel back to safety. This is pure Evil CCP. :p It get's better... Pirate scans down WH in highsec and enters it, bubbles entry point and waits... :) Or even worst, they could use the "hey can you help me with that hard mission ?" technique: - fleet up - warp to the "in need for help" guy who stands just next to the WH entrance - getting automaticly sucked through wormhole (if they do an auto-travel through and not on activation) - being bubbled & pwned by a nice "welcome in WH space!" comitee hi sec exploration 4TW

Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:09:00 - [761] Originally by: Mistral Sud Edited by: Mistral Sud on 27/01/2009 16:00:13 Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. Does that mean i can always take a titan through a wormhole for a one way ride? srry i got it didnt understand the cutoff thingy :P Cruiser would be the biggest ship able to go through when the mass left is still above 0kg but smaller than most ship sizes. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:15:00 - [762] The wormhomel system wouldnt be easy to 'game'. There's 5,000 systems in EVE. How many times would you and your fleet have to enter and exit a wormhole until you get one whereyou wanted it? Who's to say you'll get a new link immediately after? ----------------- Friends Forever
Aya Vandenovich	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:20:00 - [763] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg The wormhomel system wouldnt be easy to 'game'. There's 5,000 systems in EVE. How many times would you and your fleet have to enter and exit a wormhole until you get one whereyou wanted it? Who's to say you'll get a new link immediately after? Indeed, and even then the time/mass restrictions might make it unfeasible. Somewhere In England
Rydra Wong Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:21:00 - [764] Sorry I can't be bothered to read all 26 pages of this thread now, so if this is a repeat I apologise. Will there be bounties involved in the things to kill in Wormholes? What I'm wondering, is could a person basically go ratting in wormhole space, stay in a single system, killing a series of respawning rats, lugging a set of secure cans with them to store loot etc, and after a while, scan for an exit and jump out having made isk with noone having found them by some fluke? ALSO, If a person goes into a wormhole space, and they find an EXIT wormhole, could they then report the exit location to their buddies, and call them to where the exit is, sending them back in with supplies/more ships etc?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:23:00 - [765] Edited by: Goumindong on 27/01/2009 16:22:45 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Yes, you do, and yes, this means you can get stuck So you went through all of that trouble to make an onboard scanner and when push comes to shove, instead of using it on a system that everyone is supposed to be able to partake in, you scrap it and make everyone fit another high slot module? So what is the idea? Nothing with <1 utility high slot allowed?
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:33:00 - [766] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg There's 5,000 systems in EVE. How many times would you and your fleet have to enter and exit a wormhole until you get one whereyou wanted it? Who's to say you'll get a new link immediately after? This is part of the reason why it will just turn into a big alliance camp town. If the exit is anywhere in their space, friendly space, empire space, in space held by an alliance that couldn't fend them off (usually too far away for this to matter), or in space that is in jump range of their own then they could feasably mount an operation to load/offload. The devs have said they'll always be a link.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:35:00 - [767] What I truly see happening is ALOT of single player alts, logged off in POSs in WH space watching their pos. When fuel runs low, or space for moon **/roid /rat grows slim, you start scanning. Do that for a week, collapsing any crap holes until you get a good one near or in empire. Haul loot, refill, voila, perfect alt for making buku bucks. Crazy thing is, there's soo many systems and none of them are linked, that there's more than enough for every pilot that wants one, to have one. The big alliances will control any good moons, but the rest of the systems will have a small POS and an alt working it. ----------------- Friends Forever**
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:36:00 - [768] Originally by: Kleb Siella Originally by: Haniblecter Teg There's 5,000 systems in EVE. How many times would you and your fleet have to enter and exit a wormhole until you get one whereyou wanted it? Who's to say you'll get a new link immediately after? This is part of the reason why it will just turn into a big alliance camp town. If the exit is anywhere in their space, friendly space, empire space, in space held by an alliance that couldn't fend them off (usually too far away for this to matter), or in space that is in jump range of their own then they could feasably mount an operation to load/offload. The devs have said they'll always be a link. xpostin' I fail to see how 0.0 alliances would take "all" wormhole space. I mean for one thing, there's so damn much of it, what's more the entrances and exits are always changing so there can't be any reliable zones of control. I expect many explorers and small corporations exploring the vast unknown. While large 0.0 alliances will no doubt explore W space too, trying to control it reliably in huge amounts would probably spread them thin away from their front lines in known space. I mean for gods sake if it's really like 2500 systems of wormhole space, and one day the entrance could be in your back yard, the next day, your enemies'.
Dignant Caldari Gallente Mining and Manufacturing Inc	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:37:00 - [769] I was thinking about what was said about warping probes around and the ability to increase/decrease the range of the probes. Will this make deep safe spots completely useless? Currently, if you can create a safespot say more than 5 AU from a warpable object, a normal person cannot find me, and as I increase my distance from 5 to 10 to 20 it takes a more skilled prober to find me. It sounds like the new system will allow a 1 day old prober to effectively use the equivalent of Ferret or Observator probes. The other problem is that I can now be probed out in the darkness of space by less skilled in-game probers and better out-of-game probers. I know its simplistic, but it still applies. Say I have the following warpable object X <------20 AU----> 5 empty AU <----20 AU----> warpable object y. Before I was relatively safe because even if my opponent KNEW I was probably in that gooey 5AU middle, he really couldn't easily warp to where he thought I might be and he didn't have the skills to drop a Ferret. Now with the new system, the prober can guess where I might be and send his crappy short range probes there to "check it out". How about making it so that probes can only be told to warp within say 5 AU of a warpable object and an existing exploration (Astrometrcis) skill would boost that by 5 AU per level with level V giving 100AU range or something like that. Also, have Astrometrics skill level be an upper bound on the range you can change your probe to scan, ie a L1 Astrometrics character cannot do a 40-100AU scan. Please post the probing dev blog. :) You gave just enough information to peak our interest and not enough information which scares the @!#%@&* out of us.
Aynen	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:37:00 - [770] Is it possible to just be flying along and suddenly get sucked into a wormhole, or will there be a visual cue that you're near one and should watch out? Also, when warping right over a wormhole, could you get sucked into it from warp?

Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:38:00 - [771] Originally by: Rydra Wong Sorry I can't be bothered to read all 26 pages of this thread now, so if this is a repeat I apologise. Will there be bounties involved in the things to kill in Wormholes? What I'm wondering, is could a person basically go ratting in wormhole space, stay in a single system, killing a series of respawning rats, lugging a set of secure cans with them to store loot etc, and after a while, scan for an exit and jump out having made isk with noone having found them by some fluke? I think there's not going to be bounties, just loot. Its not like you're killing pirates in belts, its some new threat or alien. ALSO, If a person goes into a wormhole space, and they find an EXIT wormhole, could they then report the exit location to their buddies, and call them to where the exit is, sending them back in with supplies/more ships etc?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:38:00 - [772] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Well let's see, in 0.0 there are multiple gates that your group control and always know the location of, they don't move and they don't cut you off. As well, there are no wildcard hostiles, you can cyno jump to your static destination, and it takes a significant hostile force to change any of this. You're reaching. Having a predictable route every time doesn't mean its going to be safer. Safety in logistics is also a moot topic, as you don't need to be running past 0.0 gatecamps with indies anymore. Originally by: Dal Deinvisu That is exactly the point; no entity has control over where the next wormhole links (not evening CCP). To have a destination to take a hauler through friendly space is extremely unlikely. Even likelier someone will notice the activity and close the wormhole before the logistics team can arrive, sending them back to square 1. First, you wouldn't be doing it with a hauler. Second, you would have dozens of wormholes in the span of a month to get the job done. Your whole randomness is a showstopper argument doesn't work, and the suggestion that its somehow more dangerous is subjective. Originally by: Dal Deinvisu You're the one advocating 1-way travel, not I, and again, you're arguing against my reasoning with my reasoning; a single hauler (or a dedicated team, ftm) is not in a position to maintain an ever fluid network of POSes, and that's not even taking into account hostiles players on the route, and then in the destination w-space. It sounds like you just object to players already inside from being able to collapse their way in/out (which is a reasonable concern). Considering I can get to any region on the map, or live in 0.0 for years at a time. Take away the randomness, and how would this be any different from the multitude of groups that run POS in 0.0? Hell, I ran a network solo in early 2008 without jumpdrives or freighters. Your reasoning isn't reasoning, it's a consistent overestimation of the challenge this presents to anyone whose already a veteran of 0.0. I can't disprove your opinion. At best I can offer you a really expensive wager.
Finnroth Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:42:00 - [773] Exploration was one for more recent mini professions added to the game. A little question i have regarding the older ones - namely archaeology and hacking - will they have new roles/skills/fields of use in the coming expansion?
Fire Trail	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:46:00 - [774] This may have been mentioned but the thread is really long. I'm curious is the exploration is going to be feasible for new players to try? (I'm sure it will be open to the players.) I have a lot of friends that are getting really excited about this, but hate if I have to tell them 'well yea you could go in there. but if your not flying a batttle ship your dead.' Also given the possible influx of new players from the box set.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:51:00 - [775] Originally by: Kim Telkin To Rex Lashar, thoughts on this 2-way wormhole idea? So we have about 1000 new systems. Lets divide them into 5 groups (by truesec or what have you). Group 1 being the worst systems with common moons etc. Group 5 being the best systems with the rarest moons. Treat K space as 'Group 0'. Take the hypothesis that all WHs are two way. BUT in a system in Group N, the chance for the WH to connect to a system in a different group is as follows: Group N-2: 10% Group N-1: 40% Group N: 30% Group N+1: 15% Group N+2: 5% Or something like that. So if the best moons are in 'Deep W space' (group 5), they will never connect directly to K space. Only to less deep W space. From there you could travel to even less deep W space or to K space if you're lucky. So you set up a POS on a awesome moon in a Group 5 system and you populate it with 50 players. They probe all the time and find a WH to group 3 space. A scout goes through, and only once in a while will a scout find a route directly to K space. Most likely the WH goes to another W space system. you can probe out a route through a few W space systems to K space. Then bring your fleet of 5 or 6 players in. But you have to keep the route open and secure the whole time. So in this type of scenario, the 'shallow' W space is easy to colonize as you predicted, but not as profitable. 'Deep' W space would be very hard to colonize, but very profitable. By balancing the chance of WHs going to different group types you could make deep W space a true frontier I think. But perhaps I am missing something. Can you think of a good way to game a system like that? Yep, I could metagame that in pretty much the same way. You provide percentages of how often the deeper parts connect directly to known space. I proposed the same thing a few pages back. But with 2-way travel, you can hop the fence if you don't like the wormhole and close it. CCP stated that every WH system always has one WH leading out. So all you're doing is cycling to a new spawn. It might make exploration annoying, but hardly challenging. You have a month or more in which to sneak in more fuel. Even at 5%, that means a statistical average of 1/20 wormholes you find will be direct. I'm pretty sure someone with too much time on their hands could find it in a day. Second issue with your theory is that moon distribution is seeded according to truesec. There will be dyspro/prom moons in all areas.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:54:00 - [776] The great unknown. True exploration. Bring everything because you don't know what you'll actually need. You can't call for back up because there's no route mapped. There's only one way in, and the way out is totally random. (If you roll a dice seven times and you get four six's is it still totally random, or merely "fixed"?) Anyway - this sounds dangerous and exciting. Only silly corps/alliances will bring in pve ships and equipment as not only are these systems NOT instanced, but the NPC AI will also be...well more intelligent. They will nos and jam, they will switch targets. Hopefully they'll be manned by volunteers who can only see the ship type flashing red, no other identification whatsoever. As for pos set ups - that's fine and there's a chance they won't be there when the corp returns, but they will get found by other players who loot and destroy them and their backup - some poor sap who's in team B all by himself JUST IN CASE. We don't know how good these NPC rats are going to be. We can surmise there won't be bounties - who cares, there's t3 loot and salvage for goodness sake! We don't even know if once the party needs to come back they'll get back home safely. This is a true journey with no destination in mind, only the starting point is known. Save up cash, get a passport. Go to the airport with your cash and a backpack of clothing. Book the next flight out, no matter where. Spend a few days/weeks at your destination. Repeat. This is a real life adventure not for the faint hearted. This is what the wormhole expansion will be like, except with fewer passport control officers looking at you funny, and a lot more firepower required.
Zoiewu	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:56:00 - [777] Surely people can still enter the wormhole if somebody is stuck inside and rescue them with probes or ship? Maybe that people will specialise on rescuing people from wormholes?
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:56:00 - [778] the way I understand it Wspace will be one of the following conetion wise Empire only low sec only 0.0 only empire and low sec only low sec and 00 only any system other wormhole only(Ie Wspace that hooks to other Wspace) K<->K bridges
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:03:00 - [779] Originally by: CCP Greyscale In K-space a collapsing wormhole will respawn elsewhere in the cluster. Forgive me if this is answered already. Can you define cluster please?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:04:00 - [780] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: CCP Greyscale In K-space a collapsing wormhole will respawn elsewhere in the cluster. Forgive me if this is answered already. Can you define cluster please? New Eden has always been referred to as a "cluster", in terms of backstory and all that.

Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:04:00 - [781] Originally by: Raymon James the way I understand it Wspace will be one of the following conetion wise Empire only low sec only 0.0 only empire and low sec only low sec and 00 only any system other wormhole only(Ie Wspace that hooks to other Wspace) K<->K bridges All wormhole space will be null-sec, some wormhole systems are more profitable than others. We won't get that information, unless it's accidently leaked with an API release - (some hope!). The wormhole location and destination are random. This means on one day you might find twenty high sec wormholes leading to the same 2 wormhole systems. And the exit leading to a null sec system. The destination of any wormhole is not known until you go through it. What you do when you come across another player in wormhole space is entirely up to you (or them), there will be no concord, no sec los, no aggro timer. Wormholes are only found with probes, no probes no chance of finding a wormhole. The logistics are well in favour of those that use crystals and drones. Bringing in enough ammo/missiles is just a case of filling up the cargo bay and jetting what you can't carry when you're looted up. I'm just wondering how corp/alliance chat will work. Across the vast distance....it doesn't matter may as well keep it normal as there's out of game voip and well, what's the point dropping letters out of a transmission when it can be easily bypassed. Oh well, forget I wrote this paragraph.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:07:00 - [782] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Cailais "Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions". Clearly you could then create a mobile 'bookmark' of sorts to manouveur a fleet using this process. So, could anything be implemented to allow such movement without the use of probes? You can't warp to probes, and you can't scan for them either. Otherwise making insanely deep-space bookmarks would be very easy. Any chance of reversing this nerf? Currently it's very useful to be able to scan for another player's probes, as it allows you to skip using your own long-range probes (assuming you haven't been able to get a scan result on the site itself) and just drop a short-range probe on top of theirs. And as a nice bonus, it gives you a chance of dropping out within de-cloaking range and scoring a free covops kill while removing the competition. Also, can we get a clear yes/no on jumping *OUT* of a wormhole system with a capital ship? IOW, you have a carrier in a W system, can you jump to a cyno in a K system?
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:08:00 - [783] Below is an outline for all the newcomers about the new exploration system & skills based on the Blog and CCP Greyscale's answers. New Scanning System: - Easier to use - Need rough understanding of what to do and how to do it and it will work <-slight idea of what you're doing and it should work? - Never understood how to make midpoints? not you don't need to - Life more interesting for existing explorers Overview: By the sound of it, the new system be more interesting and much more accessible to the majority. Scanning Skill(points): - Those that have high scanning skills, will have an edge - Major advantage is speed. "Should vary much more significantly" <--hope it's significant enough. - Player with build up exploration skills will have: Noticeable advantage. Overview: It is still yet to be seen, what significant and noticeable advantages are for players specializing in exploration. The 600 base speed of Scan probe launcher, if reduced will make the speed scanning time bonuses less significant in a very well trained characters vs. slightly trained characters, basically narrowing the gap between different level skilled probers in terms of advantage. Launchers: Combat Launcher - high CPU requirement, only scans for ships and drones. Most likely needs a covops alt. Exploration Launcher - very low CPU requirement. Scans for wormholes and for exploration sites. Likely doesn't need a covops alt. Overview: Making exploration launcher with very low CPU requirement so that a lot of people can easily fit them on practically any ship type. This indicates that a lot of people will have those launcher fitted, and I mean a lot: Roaming gangs, gate camping and other have the probe launcher, so that they can look for wormholes for pvp and some profit. This also indicates that the same bunch of people will be able to do exploration for regular content as well. Now the Big Question to CCP: Now that this will give a potential ability to very high number of ships fitted with exploration capable launchers to also look for exploration content besides wormholes, in a much easier manner. They don't have to warp, no midpoints, zomg! the probes warp themselves while gate camping or such(assumed) What will be the consequences for people doing regular exploration or that chose it as a profession. Just imagine, what would happen if you change mining laser requirements, increase the efficiency for low skilled players, so that a lot of people can fit them without any trouble, and then put asteroid belts at gates or any other scenario that they all could be mining while doing something else. I know it's a bad example, and it's not going to happen. But for comparison this will do. I think you should be careful as in not to make regular exploration (treat wormholes as separate), too easy and usable by practically any ships type. Don't want regular exploration profession to be ruined or flooded basically.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:09:00 - [784] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Cailais "Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions". Clearly you could then create a mobile 'bookmark' of sorts to manouveur a fleet using this process. So, could anything be implemented to allow such movement without the use of probes? You can't warp to probes, and you can't scan for them either. Otherwise making insanely deep-space bookmarks would be very easy. Any chance of reversing this nerf? Currently it's very useful to be able to scan for another player's probes, as it allows you to skip using your own long-range probes (assuming you haven't been able to get a scan result on the site itself) and just drop a short-range probe on top of theirs. And as a nice bonus, it gives you a chance of dropping out within de-cloaking range and scoring a free covops kill while removing the competition. Also, can we get a clear yes/no on jumping *OUT* of a wormhole system with a capital ship? IOW, you have a carrier in a W system, can you jump to a cyno in a K system? You can still use the directional scanner.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:11:00 - [785] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: CCP Greyscale In K-space a collapsing wormhole will respawn elsewhere in the cluster. Forgive me if this is answered already. Can you define cluster please? New Eden has always been referred to as a "cluster", in terms of backstory and all that. Thanks for the answer but . . . What does he mean by cluster? Does he mean the same thing as you or the person who wrote the back story? Cluster of systems on one sub server? Constellation? Respawn anywhere?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:13:00 - [786] Originally by: War Fairy Thanks for the answer but . . . What does he mean by cluster? Does he mean the same thing as you or the person who wrote the back story? Cluster of systems on one sub server? Constellation? Respawn anywhere? I am fairly certain he just means the star cluster that makes up new eden. Even if we means server cluster, it is to the same effect.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:13:00 - [787] Cluster = the whole EVE map.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:14:00 - [788] Originally by: An Anarchyyt You can still use the directional scanner. That assumes no change. Has this been documented? Hey CCP? Can we still use the d scanner to find out if people are trying to probe us?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:16:00 - [789] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: An Anarchyyt You can still use the directional scanner. That assumes no change. Has this been documented? Hey CCP? Can we still use the d scanner to find out if people are trying to probe us? I guess we'd have to wait for the scanning blog. But so far all scanning has only talked about probes. So no news to directional scanning or to moon scanning makes it sound like it is staying basically the same, so far.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:16:00 - [790] Originally by: Rex Lashar Cluster = the whole EVE map. Thanks for the guesses but I don't like to make assumptions on patches. That is the path to FAIL. Can we get clarification on where wormholes respawn please? Does in the cluster mean anywhere?

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:17:00 - [791] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: An Anarchyyt You can still use the directional scanner. That assumes no change. Has this been documented? Hey CCP? Can we still use the d scanner to find out if people are trying to probe us? I guess we'd have to wait for the scanning blog. But so far all scanning has only talked about probes. So no news to directional scanning or to moon scanning makes it sound like it is staying basically the same, so far. They haven't said anything about T3 yet. Guess there won't be any changes to that. :)
Kim Telkin Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:18:00 - [792] Originally by: Rex Lashar Yep, I could metagame that in pretty much the same way. You provide percentages of how often the deeper parts connect directly to known space. I proposed the same thing a few pages back. But with 2-way travel, you can hop the fence if you don't like the wormhole and close it. CCP stated that every WH system always has one WH leading out. So all you're doing is cycling to a new spawn. It might make exploration annoying, but hardly challenging. You have a month or more in which to sneak in more fuel. Even at 5%, that means a statistical average of 1/20 wormholes you find will be direct. I'm pretty sure someone with too much time on their hands could find it in a day. Second issue with your theory is that moon distribution is seeded according to truesec. There will be dyspro/prom moons in all areas. It was your post that left me thinking in that direction. But was I was proposing I guess was a system where it was VERY unlikely for a 'good/deep' W space system to link directly to K space. Like 1 in 1,000 chance. Assume you can scan/use/respawn a WH in 10 min. That would mean only 1 WH a week would link directly to K space. If you are ALWAYS hunting them down. But instead most WH would go to other W space which would go to other W space which would go to K space. Then you have to do real scouting and real work to run convoys of ice to keep your POS up. You'd be able to game it, but it might be more profitable to do more ninja POSing. If there are dyspro/prom moons in all areas like you suggest, then I will be rather disappointed because ones in easy to reach systems would of course be claimed and camped like you suggest. If you look at Greyscale's post here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=24#714 on the third point. He hints something like this might actually be the case.....
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:19:00 - [793] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Rex Lashar Cluster = the whole EVE map. Thanks for the guesses but I don't like to make assumptions on patches. That is the path to FAIL. Can we get clarification on where wormholes respawn please? Does in the cluster mean anywhere? Its not a guess. The cluster is a generic term for "EVE Universe". Greyscale already explained how they respawn. Crappy WH systems found in high sec empire have a lower chance of linking back to dangerous alliance territory in 0.0.
Darth Sith Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:22:00 - [794] My apologies if this has been covered elseware but I was only able to read through about 17 pages :) My question is two fold: 1) What has/is being done to address the age old issue North American players have encountered where the people in Europe / Asia log on just after downtime and drop probes all over the place and run everything while the North Americans are still in bed or at work? We need some things that spawn dynamically throughout the day instead of only at a defined point to make it truely balanced. Anything else is 'good enough' 2) When there is one of these worm holes, especially in empire or low sec, How do you plan on making them actually usefull? I can forsee an empire / low sec wormhole popping up after down time and within 30 min have a dozen or more people on it like flies on a dead body completely negating any decision process around mass allowances and/or risk/reward. People will just pile through in cheap T1 / frigates etc 'just to see' and maybe get lucky. Footnote: Excellent work btw. I have been playing since 03 and it is nice to see something revolutionary instead of evolutionary come to the table.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:26:00 - [795] Originally by: Darth Sith 1) What has/is being done to address the age old issue North American players have encountered where the people in Europe / Asia log on just after downtime and drop probes all over the place and run everything while the North Americans are still in bed or at work? We need some things that spawn dynamically throughout the day instead of only at a defined point to make it truely balanced. Anything else is 'good enough' These sites, like exploration sites, aren't constrained to downtime.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:28:00 - [796] Originally by: Kim Telkin If there are dyspro/prom moons in all areas like you suggest, then I will be rather disappointed because ones in easy to reach systems would of course be claimed and camped like you suggest. If you look at Greyscale's post here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=24#714 on the third point. He hints something like this might actually be the case..... There are dyspro moons in empire, Aridia has like.. 12 high end moons alone. There are some in lowsec Lonetrek too. If you made the high end wormhole systems rarely connect to normal space, such that it was unusable for POS logistics, then people are just going to settle where they can. Those high end moons in the deep end of the pool might as well not exist. When that happens, you're basically segmenting WH space into two parts: "colonize here, but not there". I don't think such compromise solutions would actually make both camps happy. The frontier people will have their immersion ruined as half the systems they visit are blobbed up and locked down. The colonists will be increasingly annoyed as fewer easy-to-settle systems are left. And yeah, they are finally releasing some information which suggests such a system is already in place. It's good for us, becuase it means we don't have to convince them why a depth heirarchy would be really cool and worth the trouble.
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:38:00 - [797] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Also, can we get a clear yes/no on jumping *OUT* of a wormhole system with a capital ship? IOW, you have a carrier in a W system, can you jump to a cyno in a K system? Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Wrayeth You stated you cannot cyno into wormhole space. Can you cyno out of it? No. ... and I really think they should boost T2 plate HP.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:41:00 - [798] It would be very prudent if all the resources available in w-space was completely new - and created t3 (or beyond) and didn't interfere with existing markets (t1 and t2) unless you wanted a general price crash.... Otherwise, if mineral generation was from salvaging alone, I don't see t3 components coming anywhere near t2 - and that as severe balance implications if your intending t3 to be equal to, t2 in terms of barriers to entry and capabilities. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Heknai Gallente The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:44:00 - [799] CCP, do you guys need any microsoft certified IT people up there in icelandic world? I'd be happy to relocate! --In times of strife and desperation, heroes are made of ordinary men...
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:46:00 - [800] No offense meant to the devs but I find this whole deal insulting. Its clear to me the entire point of this is to introduce t3 components and the new AI without actually doing anything real to the game. By that I mean... NO sov issues fix... NO added sov capable systems... NO truly usable moons to mine being added... Its like someone dangled the carrot in front of me then beat me with the stick and never gave me the carrot EVER. I know its still in the development stages but common this is just silly. As a person who is part of a smaller alliance/corp I find this entire thing insulting. It does nothing to break the grid lock of sov squatting that the big alliances do with huge blob fleets. Why even allow us to setup POS's if we can't resupply them? No ice in the systems? Common that is just silly. Comets are mostly ice. Why even allow them if you can't get sov to be able to setup the modules that require it? Forget a player getting lost in a system. Can you imagine having an entire POS in a system and knowing it has 3 weeks and fuel and you've "lost it". Whoever the caretaker alt was leaves the game/corp or leaves system and the wormhole closes... blah blah list one million scenario's here... Sorry I just see a billion holes in this setup as it is presented here. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this is going to work. I'm a firm believer in don't gripe about stuff unless you have a solution so I guess I will go eat lunch and come back and post about some of my idea's in the suggestions area...

Rocius Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:47:00 - [801] Originally by: Heknai CCP, do you guys need any microsoft certified IT people up there in icelandic world? I'd be happy to relocate! See here http://www.ccpgames.com/jobs.aspx
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:51:00 - [802] Originally by: Darkdood No offense You are p. cool. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:55:00 - [803] Originally by: Darkdood No offense meant to the devs but I find this whole deal insulting. Its clear to me the entire point of this is to introduce t3 components and the new AI without actually doing anything real to the game. By that I mean... NO sov issues fix... NO added sov capable systems... NO truly usable moons to mine being added... 1. The sovereignty system is their top priority for 2009, and you're probably gonna see stuff happen over the summer. 2. So? A lack of sov capable systems is not a problem that needs fixing. 3. If your definition of usable means sustainable pos deployments, that remains to be seen. If you're griping about it because of the high component prices, then simply adding more high end moons does nothing. Prices are high because fuel costs are high and such moons don't change hands easily.
Inara Subaka Caldari the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:56:00 - [804] I've read most of the thread and one thing I don't remember seeing mentioned, will there be any NPC stations in wspace? If I missed it... sorry, that's a lot of info to take in.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:58:00 - [805] Originally by: Inara Subaka I've read most of the thread and one thing I don't remember seeing mentioned, will there be any NPC stations in wspace? If I missed it... sorry, that's a lot of info to take in. From the Dev Blog: pilot who stumbles across one of these stellar phenomena can fly through it and travel to unknown space, where there are no stargates or stations, just the unexplored void of a new solar system.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:01:00 - [806] Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high I really, really, doubt that. How many billions per month does a dysprosium moon make?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:03:00 - [807] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high I really, really, doubt that. How many billions per month does a dysprosium moon make? Might wanna finish quoting the sentence: Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high and such moons don't change hands easily. The cost of low and medium end materials is determined mostly by fuel cost, as the margins are low. The second issue is what leads to super expensive dysprosium.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:07:00 - [808] Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high I really, really, doubt that. How many billions per month does a dysprosium moon make? off topic: At current prices around 10 bil per month per dys-moon. Fuel costs are 0.12 bil per month. Fuel costs are quite low atm, it is the supply from the cheated pos-production which is missing and driving prices up currently - and lots of speculation.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:07:00 - [809] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 27/01/2009 18:08:58 Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high I really, really, doubt that. How many billions per month does a dysprosium moon make? Might wanna finish quoting the sentence: Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high and such moons don't change hands easily. The cost of low and medium end materials is determined mostly by fuel cost, as the margins are low. The second issue is what leads to super expensive dysprosium. Yes, but preceding that was: Quote: then simply adding more high end moons does nothing Which can't be true because adding more highend moons will increase the supply and probably add more competitors and drive the prices down. Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Gamer4liff Originally by: Rex Lashar Prices are high because fuel costs are high I really, really, doubt that. How many billions per month does a dysprosium moon make? off topic: At current prices around 10 bil per month per dys-moon. Fuel costs are 0.12 bil per month. Fuel costs are quite low atm, it is the supply from the cheated pos-production which is missing and driving prices up currently - and lots of speculation. Ah, thank you, I was wondering about that.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:18:00 - [810] Originally by: Gamer4liff Which can't be true because adding more highend moons will increase the supply and probably add more competitors and drive the prices down. You're ignoring the fact that its already happened, and failed. 8 new Drone Regions, remember? More competitors in the short term to drive prices down. Same nonsense in the long term as the bigger groups consolidate The only way "add more high end moons" = "lower reactor prices" under current rules, is if you add so many that a handful of groups can't reasonably control the majority of supply. And it would take a lot, because the other sellers have the income to buy up undercut supply and fix their prices again. Not to bring in real world politics, but a lot of governments have tried to justify the exploitation of natural resources by the same argument. That somehow more supply = more competition = lower prices.

Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:20:00 - [811] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Cailais A W-POS has a very real risk of simply starving to death. C. If all wormholes are 2 way and all systems have a worm hole this is not the case. A hanger array can hold months and months of fuel. Hell an orca can hold almost 2 months of fuel. One freighter trip in to the POS and you're good for months. Sure the freighter might be trapped there for a couple days but you only need to move it once every 3-4 months. It's not an on demand solution but it's still a trivial solution. If you make K-W found through exploration two way but W-K one way that makes the supply problem hard. Sorry I disagree. If nobody else was involved, then sure - you will be able to refuel with no issues whatsoever. But,and this is an important point, 'other' people will be involved. Those 'other people' are going to be out hunting, with scrams and all manner of nasty scorchy weapons, and theyre gonna be looking for that freighter. If it's easy for you to resupply a POS in W-Space, its just as easy for the opportunist pirate to 'interdict' that resupply. W-Systems act as a great 'long range roamer' for the pirate. I hop my fleet into one and use it to short cut to another system. I can hide my pirate fleet in one. I just dont think refueling that POS is going to be quite as trivial as some people think. C.
Mumble HappyFeet	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:22:00 - [812] Originally by: Des Jardin Despite what would no doubt be a logistical nightmare, imagine how cool it would be to build an Outpost in a wormhole system. ... off I go to change my 5-year plan ... Des Jardin No sov, so no putting up an Outpost.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:25:00 - [813] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Gamer4liff Which can't be true because adding more highend moons will increase the supply and probably add more competitors and drive the prices down. You're ignoring the fact that its already happened, and failed. 8 new Drone Regions, remember? More competitors in the short term to drive prices down. Same nonsense in the long term as the bigger groups consolidate The only way "add more high end moons" = "lower reactor prices" under current rules, is if you add so many that a handful of groups can't reasonably control the majority of supply. And it would take a lot, because the other sellers have the income to buy up undercut supply and fix their prices again. Not to bring in real world politics, but a lot of governments have tried to justify the exploitation of natural resources by the same argument. That somehow more supply = more competition = lower prices. I see your point, though I think that prices didn't fall because the eve population was expanding rapidly at the time of the new regions coming out matching the new supply to the new demand. There hasn't been any more new moons to mine since then though, and prices have continued to rise as supply stagnated and demand reached new heights. That's just my take though. And certainly the fact that a lot of the moons were controlled by only a few entities factored in. Hopefully in these 2500 new highend moons will be able to be owned by independents, which is more likely because of the uncontrollable nature of wormhole space.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:29:00 - [814] Where inside a system will Wormholes spawn? Will it be like current exploration sites and they will only spawn within 4 au of a planet or will it be more free form?
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:29:00 - [815] Why so many wormhole systems? Isn't that likely to limit the amount of conflict over these new resources? Is that the intention? If not, would you consider fewer system (at least 0.0 systems) with more entrances?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:33:00 - [816] That remains to be seen, space friend. It all comes down to whether POS deployments are permanent or not, and nothing else. If they're temporary, moons will change hands every couple months. If the same group of players can keep returning to the same system and pay the upkeep fees, large groups will consolidate the new moons in the distant future. And even if there are more large groups doing the holding compared to today, the player population will spike after Apocrypha and Ambulation to match it. Any other form of high moon turnover can only be introduced by a change to put POS warfare into mainstream pvp and add dynamic elements to moon harvesting mechanics (ie. depletable, respawning moon resources). I would like to see that as well, for the record.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:35:00 - [817] Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 27/01/2009 18:35:58 Originally by: JiJiCle Or even worst, they could use the "hey can you help me with that hard mission ?" technique: - fleet up - warp to the "in need for help" guy who stands just next to the WH entrance - getting automaticly sucked through wormhole (if they do an auto-travel through and not on activation) - being bubbled & pwned by a nice "welcome in WH space!" comitee hi sec exploration 4TW Hm, I guess you just pointed out the reason why Wormholes should NOT automatically suck you in. And before you get started: No, EVE does not become a better game when people are being griefed, without any means to protect themselves, while in the process of trying to be helpful. It might come as an surprise, but I hardly think CCP is interested in completely killing off what little positive social interaction strangers have in the game. Especially considering the efforts they have recently done to improve those aspects (by killing off the Lofty scam for example).
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:37:00 - [818] Originally by: Alexander Knott Why so many wormhole systems? Isn't that likely to limit the amount of conflict over these new resources? Is that the intention? If not, would you consider fewer system (at least 0.0 systems) with more entrances? The number isn't what limits the conflict, its the distribution. They added more systems with the Drone Region expansion (3k+ iirc?), but much of that is utilitarian (used for connections and travel. A crappy system on a travel path close to a busy empire route isn't going to support fledgling corp operations. With wormhole space the quality of a system simply comes down to the resources in it and not its strategic location.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:39:00 - [819] meeeh i had hoped for consumption of ammo (probes) for some extra strontium demand -.- - putting the gist back into logistics
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:53:00 - [820] Originally by: Cailais If it's easy for you to resupply a POS in W-Space, its just as easy for the opportunist pirate to 'interdict' that resupply. W-Systems act as a great 'long range roamer' for the pirate. I hop my fleet into one and use it to short cut to another system. I can hide my pirate fleet in one. I just dont think refueling that POS is going to be quite as trivial as some people think. You're wrong. It's assymetrical. To refuel you only have to get one ship through. To interdict you have to prevent all ships from getting through. You also seem to be making the assumption that there will be no guards or scouts on the refuel ship to deal with said interdiction. With that you're chance of random pirates is null. If you're going to mess with a POS you shoot it you don't blockade it. Please see current SOP.

Pilk Blade.	Posted - 2009.01.27 18:54:00 - [821] As the person who created this set of probe coverage bookmarks, will any concession be given to those of us who spent many hours producing carefully-honed bookmark sets allowing thorough coverage of a system? If not, meh, but I'd like to see some benefit come from all that hard work. --P Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: PAID!
Rocius Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:10:00 - [822] Originally by: Pilk Edited by: Pilk on 27/01/2009 18:58:08 Also, a question I haven't seen answered--how do jump drives work in and around W-space systems? Are any W-space systems going to be in jump range of "regular" systems? Can one conceivably use a jump drive to move from one W-space system to another, were they to build a jump-capable ship in a W-space system or bring in a black ops or JF? --P Dev's have answered it a few times over atualy. There is just so many posts here its easy to overlook. The is NO cynoing or jumping inside of W space at all. Not from K space to W space. Not from W space to K space. Not from W space to W space. Any capitals brought in will be useless in terms of their jumping capabilities.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:12:00 - [823] Originally by: CCP Greyscale You can't warp to probes, and you can't scan for them either. Otherwise making insanely deep-space bookmarks would be very easy. I hope the probes are still visible on the directional scanner. Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: LegendaryFrog How do you plan on addressing what has already become somewhat of a balance issue with ammo usage. It would seem to me that these relatively closed off areas give even more of an advantage to the Amarr player who needs not worry about storing ammo (thus taking up precious cargo space to be able to actually gain something from this new space) and not being able to fire his guns. The downside to Amarr ships is that they're particularly vulnerable to capacitor-draining modules on for example NPCs. I think this will end up balancing out. If you make cap draining NPC common you unbalance heavily hybrid using ships. They will have both disadvantages. Cap draining weapons influenced by NPC cap draining and limited quantity of ammunitions.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:25:00 - [824] Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS. It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for! ≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store \| eve-maps.com
Zoiewu	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:31:00 - [825] Edited by: Zoiewu on 27/01/2009 19:31:53 Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS. It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for! I hope you missed the sarcasm tag. Right so anyone interested in doing such needs an Alliance with large cap fleet for defence or good friends, Good job of increasing the barrier of entry and taking out smaller corps and the soloist from the fun huh
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:37:00 - [826] Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS. It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for! It would totally be interesting if this was the exact same thing we already had. Good plan. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Williamat Centaurus Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:47:00 - [827] Originally by: Hoshi Where inside a system will Wormholes spawn? Will it be like current exploration sites and they will only spawn within 4 au of a planet or will it be more free form? /this
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:51:00 - [828] Edited by: Dal Deinvisu on 27/01/2009 19:53:25 Originally by: Rex Lashar Having a predictable route every time doesn't mean its going to be safer. Safety in logistics is also a moot topic, as you don't need to be running past 0.0 gatecamps with indies anymore. First[SIC], you wouldn't be doing it with a hauler. Second, you would have dozens of wormholes in the span of a month to get the job done. Your whole randomness is a showstopper argument doesn't work, and the suggestion that its somehow more dangerous is subjective. Danger is the only thing that keeps people away. Not many people are up for trips of over a hundred jumps, especially not if they get popped anywhere along the route and have to do again. And then again, next week/month. As well, other players can disrupt the operation simply by using up the wormhole. And that's a single POS in a single system. People simply are not that patient; as well, it provides great metagaming opportunities that eve is known for (wouldn't take much to "accidentally" be unable to fuel a w-space pos). Further, it's a similar trip back, resulting in a HUGE timesink and drain on any alliance's resources, any players and fuel used handling w-space logistics cannot be used for k-space POSes (which are much lower risk/reward, but necessary to hold space). Originally by: Rex Considering I can get to any region on the map, or live in 0.0 for years at a time. Take away the randomness, and how would this be any different from the multitude of groups that run POS in 0.0? The space is unconnected. The space is not reliable. You can't grab things from the edge of empire space and zip through when it's quiet. Other players will be between you and your shifting destination, and then again in and at it. You can not assemble a strong force even once you've located a safe exit. Reinforcements have to make the same trip as the logistics, in the tens-hundreds of jumps. Originally by: Rex Your reasoning isn't reasoning, it's a consistent overestimation of the challenge this presents to anyone whose already a veteran of 0.0. I've been in 0.0, npc and player sov; I've set up and fueled POSes, personal and corp; and I've seen how (in)active players can be. POSing in w-space will hardly be an I-WIN button - if anything it reduces PvP profitability CONSIDERABLY as it's a logistical and defensive nightmare, and gives your opponents a static (and weak, deathstars would be useless) target. Without POSes, the big alliances will not be gathered anywhere, and instead sending 100 HACs at a time to camp the systems they have the best access to. - I have no objection with giving them something to get hung up on and reduce their influence. Any lack of POSes would mean players will run out of carriers/Orcas and cloaks anywhere and everywhere; PvP has much less profit potential and PvE resources remain unchanged - and now you can't hit your opponent when they're not looking.
Zex Maxwell Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:56:00 - [829] Here is one Q for you. lets say you are in W-Space. and you found a WH to take you some where. Would your scanners be able to pic up radio signals? Cuz the way i see it. I wanted to go home, I find a WH that would have a radio signal from scope corporation. The way i am thinking is these WH are like the WHs in StarGate SG1
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:57:00 - [830] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Cailais If it's easy for you to resupply a POS in W-Space, its just as easy for the opportunist pirate to 'interdict' that resupply. W-Systems act as a great 'long range roamer' for the pirate. I hop my fleet into one and use it to short cut to another system. I can hide my pirate fleet in one. I just dont think refueling that POS is going to be quite as trivial as some people think. You're wrong. It's assymetrical. To refuel you only have to get one ship through. To interdict you have to prevent all ships from getting through. You also seem to be making the assumption that there will be no guards or scouts on the refuel ship to deal with said interdiction. With that you're chance of random pirates is null. If you're going to mess with a POS you shoot it you don't blockade it. Please see current SOP. I think you totally missed the point. Pie's don't have to do jack to blockade a pos or attack it. What if for an entire month every wormhole into your POS system leads to deep 0.0 space owned and gate camped by your arch enemy. You can't jump fuel in. If you can't find a wormhole to a simi safe route you could just flat out run out of fuel. Its completely random. What if random means there is NO RESUPPLY ROUTE!!! Now flip that around lets say someone does something REALLY super stupid... Don't say they won't cause I see it every day. Lets say the last character left in the system with 4 POS's is an alt of a guy that loses his job and suddenly quits the game... So you have no characters in that system and the only 2 wormholes you knew are both closed... gone... so you have 4 POS's fuel hangers billions of isk in moon poo ships etc... now go find it... Don't forget its not just about finding "A" wormhole to any wormspace system. You have find YOUR system with YOUR POS's. Even if you had 20 people do nothing but scan wormholes and jump into them blindly I bet you couldn't find it accept by shear luck. Its a huge risk to setup shop (POS's) in any of these systems. Even if you figure out ways to manage the risk its a logistical nightmare. I predict much nashing of teeth a month or two after this patch is released. People *****ing that they lost there POS's bleh bleh bleh...

permion	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:58:00 - [831] Edited by: permion on 27/01/2009 20:01:56 I personally can't wait to find all the abanandoned infrastructure from corps saying "it can't be that hard". Then completely losing access to their moon mining bases because of one mistake. have such a large number of new systems actually makes it harder to lay down claims, especially in the case of making one mistake(or rather a chain of them). __________ I personally see wormholes as a system where warfare favors the attacker and people who love logistics, and where it's nearly impossible to get any fleets the size of what anyone would call a blob. IMO: what warfare should have been in the first place.
Deltronious Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:00:00 - [832] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS. It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for! It would totally be interesting if this was the exact same thing we already had. Good plan. This. I mean seriously give, give us a break. 5000+ systems is not enough to fight over?
Fumen	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:02:00 - [833] Originally by: Zex Maxwell Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 27/01/2009 19:56:32 The way i am thinking is these WH are like the WHs in StarGate SG1 The wormholes in Stargate SG-1 were an artificial system of highways created by the ancients and accessed via the gates, much like a stargate in EVE that could connect to any other stargate. The wormholes here are more like the ones from Star Trek in that they were a rare occurance that someone tripped over and were rarely stable for long, if at all.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:04:00 - [834] Originally by: Zoiewu Edited by: Zoiewu on 27/01/2009 19:31:53 Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS. It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for! I hope you missed the sarcasm tag. QFT
Zex Maxwell Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:09:00 - [835] Originally by: Fumen Originally by: Zex Maxwell Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 27/01/2009 19:56:32 The way i am thinking is these WH are like the WHs in StarGate SG1 The wormholes in Stargate SG-1 were an artificial system of highways created by the ancients and accessed via the gates, much like a stargate in EVE that could connect to any other stargate. The wormholes here are more like the ones from Star Trek in that they were a rare occurance that someone tripped over and were rarely stable for long, if at all. Ah ty. that helps me understand now.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:25:00 - [836] Question? As we know I could go to wormspace from amarr space and end up leaving into gallente space. How does that effect the type of tech 3 goodies that are available when I reach wormspacE? As we know there are the 4 different types of goodies which build the 4 different types of tech 3 parts; from fanfest. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:26:00 - [837] Dal Deinvisu, I think you're just playing Devil's advocate now. Our discussion has veered off into the land of "how players will react", and I don't want to bother with subjective comparison games. The simplest truth about anything in EVE is that if you allow it, it will be done. If you allow settlement of WH space, it will be done. How easy or how hard it happens to be only determines how long the challenge remains unbroken on a larger scale. Which is really like asking "how long will this frontier remain a frontier?". Right now in EVE a player can - via game mechanics - put up sustainable infrastructure in every system. Don't you think that someone who wants to set up a permanent home in space already has plenty of options? What happens to all the people who spent time and effort building up the furthest reaches of normal 0.0 space? Their claims are marginalized now because their homes (at least in the short and medium term) have less economic value, less entertainment value, and are easier to assault.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:44:00 - [838] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 27/01/2009 20:44:15 Originally by: War Fairy What does he mean by cluster? I expect that he means Constellation. Every System in W-Space would have 1 or more wormholes. Every Constellation in K-Space would have 1 or more wormholes. Everytime a wormhole expires, it would respawn within its assigned boundry: either the same system for W-Space or the same constellation for K-Space. When it respawns, it would get a new randomly assigned end point. There may be biases attached to the selection of end points.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:45:00 - [839] Originally by: Darkdood I think you totally missed the point. Pie's don't have to do jack to blockade a pos or attack it. What if for an entire month every wormhole into your POS system leads to deep 0.0 space owned and gate camped by your arch enemy. A fictional example that can't happen. Any non-0.0 WH makes refueling trivial. remember if you don't like the wormhole you have you can get a new one at will. Quote: Now flip that around lets say someone does something REALLY super stupid... Meaningless arguement. You can't prevent stupidity. What happens if someone offlines their high sec POS? By your logic refueling high sec POSes is hard becuase someone might be stupid and jet the fuel.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:51:00 - [840] Originally by: War Fairy remember if you don't like the wormhole you have you can get a new one at will. The more I think on it the more this seems like the root of the problem. The solution eludes me. Limiting trips by one person would require you to have many people to crash the WH. But that just stops the small groups.

jst tstng	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:57:00 - [841] Awesomeness^20
Oothoon	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:02:00 - [842] This may not be the right place to pose the question, but it is technically WH related: If the NPCs in W-space account for some T3 parts, and there are going to be distinct T3 parts for each of the 4 races, is there going to be an according number of NPC races? The ramifications would be exciting: with the random connections between W-space systems it seems we are likely to face various races each expedition (another reason for even those looking for new PVE play to fit PVP-style, since we can't predict damage types to fire/tank). Also, is a wormhole found in, say, Gallente K-space likely to initially put us in W-space with NPCs that yield Gallente T3 components? (As I don't subscribe to EON forgive me if this has been previously covered or the premise is wrong.)
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:03:00 - [843] Quote: If all wormholes are 2 way and all systems have a worm hole this is not the case. A hanger array can hold months and months of fuel. Hell an orca can hold almost 2 months of fuel. One freighter trip in to the POS and you're good for months. Sure the freighter might be trapped there for a couple days but you only need to move it once every 3-4 months. It's not an on demand solution but it's still a trivial solution. If you make K-W found through exploration two way but W-K one way that makes the supply problem hard. I see. And if a group jumps through a wormhole and starts pewing your POS, how are you going to get to it to save it? Also, I'm assuming wormhole zones will be 0.0-like as far as PVP goes?
Inara Subaka Caldari the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:04:00 - [844] Originally by: Darkdood I think you totally missed the point. Pie's don't have to do jack to blockade a pos or attack it. What if for an entire month every wormhole into your POS system leads to deep 0.0 space owned and gate camped by your arch enemy. You can't jump fuel in. If you can't find a wormhole to a simi safe route you could just flat out run out of fuel. Its completely random. What if random means there is NO RESUPPLY ROUTE!!! I have to disagree with your hypothesis on this, completely random just means that the resupply route changes everytime the wormhole changes. Originally by: Darkdood Now flip that around lets say someone does something REALLY super stupid... Don't say they won't cause I see it every day. Lets say the last character left in the system with 4 POS's is an alt of a guy that loses his job and suddenly quits the game... So you have no characters in that system and the only 2 wormholes you knew are both closed... gone... so you have 4 POS's fuel hangers billions of isk in moon poo ships etc... now go find it... Don't forget its not just about finding "A" wormhole to any wormspace system. You have find YOUR system with YOUR POS's. Even if you had 20 people do nothing but scan wormholes and jump into them blindly I bet you couldn't find it accept by shear luck. Risk = Reward In this case the risk is "losing" your stuffs in a system you can't find. It's still sitting there, right where you left it... but it'll take a miracle to find it (unless they introduce some type of locater beacon, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon). Basically you have to plan for the worst (have a 0 SP alt parked in sys if you have to). Originally by: Darkdood Its a huge risk to setup shop (POS's) in any of these systems. Even if you figure out ways to manage the risk its a logistical nightmare. I predict much nashing of teeth a month or two after this patch is released. People ***ing that they lost there POS's bleh bleh bleh... See previous response. People can *** all they want, it's not gonna change the fact that they can't find their POS if they don't plan ahead New question: will you be able to see where a WH goes from wspace before going trough the WH (send a probe through maybe)? Cause that could be hazardous to a flashy red if the new WH ends up sending them to Yulai or something. Or are flashies going to have to use alts to scout for them? And, will WH ever end up giving access to Jovian space?
Patty Loveless Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:17:00 - [845] How I see the features: We being CCP. We will make the scanning system so easy, an (untrained) monkey can now find the exploration sites that used to take skill, creativity, experience, and time -- thoroughly collapsing the industry We will make it so isk farmers and everyone's ratting alt can just hope through a wormhole in their ishtar (drones means no ammo) and rat for the next 2 years in systems that may not even be reachable anymore We will make it so that potentially the most lucrative thing to do (rat in worm hole space for T3 components), will be one of the safest forms of ratting, with the only real downside being that you may need to wait a bit for a wormhold to open up, but in the mean time, RAT away!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:22:00 - [846] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 27/01/2009 21:22:56 Originally by: Patty Loveless How I see the features: We being CCP. We will make the scanning system so easy, an (untrained) monkey can now find the exploration sites that used to take skill, creativity, experience, and time -- thoroughly collapsing the industry We will make it so isk farmers and everyone's ratting alt can just hope through a wormhole in their ishtar (drones means no ammo) and rat for the next 2 years in systems that may not even be reachable anymore We will make it so that potentially the most lucrative thing to do (rat in worm hole space for T3 components), will be one of the safest forms of ratting, with the only real downside being that you may need to wait a bit for a wormhold to open up, but in the mean time, RAT away! How I see this post: Horrible Not understanding that more intuitive != easier Ridiculous speculation, based on god only knows what. A product of horrible reading comprehension Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
GateScout	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:24:00 - [847] Question: Will there be exploration sites within W-Space?
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:24:00 - [848] Ok so let me get this strait... on these very mesg boards I constantly hear people griping about POS's being a pain to operate etc etc. There is dozen's of threads about making fuel pellets and other non sense... Now I'm not saiyng making it easy or have an I win button or anyhting so just shut your trap if that is your only comment BUT... the devs giving us a new shiny toy that doesn't make life easy but if fact makes it harder? This all boils down to one simple thing... right now my biggest single complaint is I want to go into 0.0. However the way 0.0 is right now if you are not part of or affiliated with one of the big power blocks you are just squished by a massive blob and that is that. So the devs have given us a great anti blob tool. Wormholes prevent that because they can only fit so much crap through before it collapses... and in the very same swoop they slap us in the face because the very mechanic that stops that also creates untold amounts of hassles for me to get supplied. It doesn't solve anything. In the end the big alliances will go and occupy the good moons and crush the medium size groups under their boot. Beyond that its jut allot of fluff to add the new AI and T3 comps. Big whoop. Bottom line the devs need to rethink this. I'm not saying it sucks outright, but as presented here it doesn't seem to work very well.
GateScout	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:26:00 - [849] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Not understanding that more intuitive != easier Ridiculous speculation, based on god only knows what. A product of horrible reading comprehension [/list] ....and yet nothing you posted refutes his conclusions or speculations. How sadly typical.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:33:00 - [850] Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS. It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for! Yeah, and thats really worked out well so far . C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

Patty Loveless Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:39:00 - [851] Originally by: GateScout Originally by: An Anarchyyt Not understanding that more intuitive != easier Ridiculous speculation, based on god only knows what. A product of horrible reading comprehension [/list] ....and yet nothing you posted refutes his conclusions or speculations. How sadly typical. He is using the "AM NOT" refutation Somehow--to a goon-- moving the scanning system from one that used to require 20, sometimes 45 minutes making a BM that would be the perfect probe placement to get maximum coverage to one that you simple drag and drop the probe where you want it is not making it easier, its more intuitive* Speculation based the same thing that happens today in deep 0.0 backsystems happening in systems that by definition could be unreachable for periods of time. Yeah, you are right, my bad Quote: The salvage and loot drops from these NPC's and the exploration site rewards will provide you with the raw materials you will need to reverse engineer the technology that makes construction of the new Tech 3 ship modules possible. Who in their right mind would think that garbage would be worth anything...
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:39:00 - [852] Originally by: GateScout Originally by: An Anarchyyt Not understanding that more intuitive != easier Ridiculous speculation, based on god only knows what. A product of horrible reading comprehension [/list] ....and yet nothing you posted refutes his conclusions or speculations. How sadly typical. Probably because it's not my job to read the entire thread for him, you, or any other person of sub-average intelligence. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
permion	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:40:00 - [853] Edited by: permion on 27/01/2009 21:42:39 Originally by: GateScout Question: Will there be exploration sites within W-Space? Yes. and there will be rewards in W-space exploration sites that can't be gotten without using the exploration sites and have resources unique to W-space. And yes they will be harder than K-space exploration sites and harder to find. edit: was mentioned in an earlier reply.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:43:00 - [854] Some Thoughts Regarding W-Space Colonization Logistics 1) Freighters must pass through low/null sec when entering or leaving W-Space. Originally by: CCP Greyscale There's value on each wormhole that determines the biggest ship mass that can go through the wormhole in one go, independent of the overall mass budget. All wormholes linking to hisec have this value set so that capital ships can't go through. In the situation you describe, you'll just have to wait until a big enough wormhole appears for you. Wormholes - serious business. If a wormhole allows the mass for a Freighter, it allows the mass for a Carrier. Since we have a clear statement here saying that high sec wormholes do not have the mass capacity to allow Carriers, it is safe to expect that they will not allow Freighters. It may be possible to send an Orca directly from high sec into W-Space, but that could also be rendered impossible at the whim of the Developers, without limiting the number of smaller ships that can use high sec wormholes. 2) High profit areas will likely require multiple wormholes to reach, and those wormholes might not be open simultaniously. Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Arkady Sadik Oh. So you can't be "lost in wormhole space" in the sense that the only wormhole from your current system leads to other wormhole space? In the easier reaches of W-space, no. In the harder, more profitable areas, this is entirely possible and indeed fairly likely. This makes it sound like there are one or more classes of W-Space. I would speculate along the following lines: Class C W-Space: often connectioned to K-Space, occationally linked to other W-Systems and contains moderate rewards. Ideal for exploration, not desirable for colonization due to lack of reward. Class B W-Space: has greater rewards than Class C systems. Class B systems would only connect to other W-Systems, and not directly to K-Systems. Routes may be plotted from K-Space to Class B systems via Class C systems in realtime. Possibly desirable for colonization. Class A W-Space: has the richest rewards. Class A systems would only be connected to other W-Systems, and would only connect to Class B/C systems when those systems do not contain connections to other systems. Thus realtime navigation would be impossible. Travel would require commiting to another system, and waiting for a change in the wormhole dynamics. This would likely favor long-term expeditions, but would likely make colonization impractical.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:47:00 - [855] simple answer to the big alliance locking down a wormspace system: once a POS is set up in a system, only allow w-w jumps to spawn, if they need to get back to k space they would have to go though another wormspace system Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:51:00 - [856] Edited by: Furb Killer on 27/01/2009 21:53:33 Originally by: Patty Loveless Originally by: GateScout Originally by: An Anarchyyt Goon being right Random crap He is using the "AM NOT" refutation Somehow--to a goon-- moving the scanning system from one that used to require 20, sometimes 45 minutes making a BM that would be the perfect probe placement to get maximum coverage to one that you simple drag and drop the probe where you want it is not making it easier, its more intuitive* Speculation based the same thing that happens today in deep 0.0 backsystems happening in systems that by definition could be unreachable for periods of time. Yeah, you are right, my bad Quote: The salvage and loot drops from these NPC's and the exploration site rewards will provide you with the raw materials you will need to reverse engineer the technology that makes construction of the new Tech 3 ship modules possible. Who in their right mind would think that garbage would be worth anything... Sorry to burst your bubble, but the goon is completely right. You have no idea how exactly the new probing mechanism will work. But like a good eve player you decided to whine about it anyway. And lets get one thing straight: It cannot possibly be any worse than it is now. I am sure you have an awesome time making some bookmarks you only got to make once per system, and after that watching a counter. And again. And again. And again. Because that is the current state of exploration. While the info about the new system is limitted, so it might be logical to wait till the probing dev blog before you start complaining about it, but then again maybe not, from what i understand it will be more easy to get the basic (while the current form is brainless principles, they still made it hard to get for a beginner), but after that actually skill involved in the probing process. And the other two points were really ridiculous. First read the dev blog before you start complaining about it. Oh i think ishtar will be a good ratter. Allthough remember these npcs got ai, it might cost you drones. There is no point in staying in a system after your cargo hold is filled with stuff.
permion	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:52:00 - [857] The devs have indeed said that there are classes of W-space. High sec wormholes will have a "tendancy" to connect to W-space that is worthy of highsec. That means that in most cases if you enter a highsec wormhole the wormholes will have a "tendancy" to connect to highsec again afterwards. But you could still easily end up into lowsec or even nulsec. They've also mentioned that there is atleast one W-space location where they're wondering how players will get enough people/logistics to get enough players there.
Galena Technetium	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:54:00 - [858] Well, aside from tech 3 stuff, I can see absolutely no reason for anyone who doesn't want to be ganked while exploring to enter wormholes. Lots of risk: 1-way worm holes 2-No concord 3-Possible to run out of probes and get stuck 4-Exits might lead to places either a) far out of your way, and/or b) through tons of 0.0 or low sec space full of griefers. 5-Improved NPC AI, and who knows how tough it'll be if you go in as a frigate and find a fleet of npc's with webs and scramblers... Reward: Some tech 3 parts. Hmmmmm.... Maybe this was answered in the last 20 pages I skipped over, but will this new exploration mechanic still allow searching for the usual gravimetric/radar/magneto etc sites in high sec? So maybe some dev can come up with a reason for me to do this "exploration" which to me, sounds more like an "invitation to get ganked". Kinda like the faction warfare stuff was supposed to draw more people into pvp. But no one likes playing the victim. And after seeing all the people in this thread frothing at the mouth worried about their ability to scan down mission runners (heaven forbid someone run a mission in peace!), it appears nothing will have changed. Risk has to equal reward. The days of EQ1's original Risk with no Reward are over. Give me the reasons why a "carebear" should enter this space at all.
Rieger VaunBraun InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:55:00 - [859] Originally by: rubico1337 simple answer to the big alliance locking down a wormspace system: once a POS is set up in a system, only allow w-w jumps to spawn, if they need to get back to k space they would have to go though another wormspace system Wow man. With all of the crying and gnashing of teeth in this thread this is the simplest and most elegant solution that I have seen presented here. +1 to you sir.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:00:00 - [860] Originally by: Galena Technetium Give me the reasons why a "carebear" should enter this space at all. How does 2.72bil a week at current market prices sound?

Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:01:00 - [861] Edited by: Dal Deinvisu on 27/01/2009 22:02:41 Originally by: Rex Lashar Dal Deinvisu, I think you're just playing Devil's advocate now. Our discussion has veered off into the land of "how players will react", and I don't want to bother with subjective comparison games. The simplest truth about anything in EVE is that if you allow it, it will be done. If you allow settlement of WH space, it will be done. How easy or how hard it happens to be only determines how long the challenge remains unbroken on a larger scale. Which is really like asking "how long will this frontier remain a frontier?". Right now in EVE a player can - via game mechanics - put up sustainable infrastructure in every system. Don't you think that someone who wants to set up a permanent home in space already has plenty of options? What happens to all the people who spent time and effort building up the furthest reaches of normal 0.0 space? Their claims are marginalized now because their homes (at least in the short and medium term) have less economic value, less entertainment value, and are easier to assault. Our conversation was always about players and their opportunities. :) I may be advocating demons, but you haven't explained why letting players "settle" and war with each-other is a thing we don't want. Seeing as it's nearly impossible to maintain a logistics chain to "deep" w-space (where the really good stuff is), I don't think the frontier would be in danger.
Tunak	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:02:00 - [862] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: If all wormholes are 2 way and all systems have a worm hole this is not the case. A hanger array can hold months and months of fuel. Hell an orca can hold almost 2 months of fuel. One freighter trip in to the POS and you're good for months. Sure the freighter might be trapped there for a couple days but you only need to move it once every 3-4 months. It's not an on demand solution but it's still a trivial solution. If you make K-W found through exploration two way but W-K one way that makes the supply problem hard. I see. And if a group jumps through a wormhole and starts pewing your POS, how are you going to get to it to save it? Also, I'm assuming wormhole zones will be 0.0-like as far as PVP goes? This was answered earlier.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:02:00 - [863] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Our conversation was always about players and their opportunities. :) I may be advocating demons, but you haven't explained why letting players "settle" and war with each-other is a thing we don't want. Because there is no convincing reason that we need more of the same thing yet.
Lady Ione	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:06:00 - [864] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Second blog is being written, but in the meantime, a whole load of questions answered... Good god man! Go chug a pint of redbull and black coffee and post it already. I'm getting the twitters here!
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:08:00 - [865] Originally by: Rieger VaunBraun Originally by: rubico1337 simple answer to the big alliance locking down a wormspace system: once a POS is set up in a system, only allow w-w jumps to spawn, if they need to get back to k space they would have to go though another wormspace system Wow man. With all of the crying and gnashing of teeth in this thread this is the simplest and most elegant solution that I have seen presented here. +1 to you sir. Ignoring the fact that it's seems like a horribly blunt solution and you would have a hard time justifying it. Building a structure in space will somehow change the very nature of space around it within an entire solarsystem? What will be the end result? Every system has a POS and wormspace is cut off from rest of EVE? Having no moon systems, so some connections to the rest of EVE are still there? Basicly killing the whole feature just to address one flaw in it? Certainly not a elegant solution.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:11:00 - [866] Edited by: rubico1337 on 27/01/2009 22:12:50 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Originally by: Rieger VaunBraun Originally by: rubico1337 simple answer to the big alliance locking down a wormspace system: once a POS is set up in a system, only allow w-w jumps to spawn, if they need to get back to k space they would have to go though another wormspace system Wow man. With all of the crying and gnashing of teeth in this thread this is the simplest and most elegant solution that I have seen presented here. +1 to you sir. Ignoring the fact that it's seems like a horribly blunt solution and you would have a hard time justifying it. Building a structure in space will somehow change the very nature of space around it within an entire solarsystem? What will be the end result? Every system has a POS and wormspace is cut off from rest of EVE? Having no moon systems, so some connections to the rest of EVE are still there? Basicly killing the whole feature just to address one flaw in it? Certainly not a elegant solution. there will no be spice... i mean ice in wormspace, so any POSes would need an insane(and lucky) logistical network. and i highly doubt many would be set up
GateScout	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:22:00 - [867] Originally by: permion Yes. and there will be rewards in W-space exploration sites that can't be gotten without using the exploration sites and have resources unique to W-space. And yes they will be harder than K-space exploration sites and harder to find. edit: was mentioned in an earlier reply. ...must have missed it. Thanks for the reply.
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:24:00 - [868] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Our conversation was always about players and their opportunities. :) I may be advocating demons, but you haven't explained why letting players "settle" and war with each-other is a thing we don't want. Because there is no convincing reason that we need more of the same thing yet. Yet there is no sov, no (well not many :x ) caps, no jump bridges, no gatecamps, no station hugging... Essentially, it's everything that 0.0 pilots have been whining for. :P
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:27:00 - [869] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Our conversation was always about players and their opportunities. :) I may be advocating demons, but you haven't explained why letting players "settle" and war with each-other is a thing we don't want. Because there is no convincing reason that we need more of the same thing yet. Yet there is no sov, no (well not many :x ) caps, no jump bridges, no gatecamps, no station hugging... Essentially, it's everything that 0.0 pilots have been whining for. :P Okay. So it's 0.0 warfare pushed back a little bit in time. Station hugging doesn't matter when you have POS. You don't camp gates, you camp a system. And the bigger alliances can then do it 24/7, locking down multiple systems of interest. Then you come back and whine because there is no space for "the little buy."
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:28:00 - [870] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Ignoring the fact that it's seems like a horribly blunt solution and you would have a hard time justifying it. Building a structure in space will somehow change the very nature of space around it within an entire solarsystem? You're complaining about realism in a far future space ship game? You have no trouble with faster than light travel, clones, the fact that no one can write down a permenent set of instructions to make a jump freighter, but you draw the line at a giant force field ******* with a wormhole? Design the system then write the fiction around it. Never the other way around. Otherwise I completely agree with you. It just makes that section more private. Harder to take down the POS.

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:30:00 - [871] Ok I'm going to open the can of worms. What's wrong with no moon minerals? What's wrong with no POSes? Simple easy solutions.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:39:00 - [872] Originally by: War Fairy Ok I'm going to open the can of worms. What's wrong with no moon minerals? What's wrong with no POSes? Simple easy solutions. nothing inherently bad with POSs, im all for it if they are small and controlled by small corps that dont try to OWN the space, the challenge is letting there be POSes AND making sure any alliance cant lock down several systems. its a balancing act if there are POSes there should be lucrative moons too, to give the incentive to take such a logisitical risk
permion	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:41:00 - [873] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Okay. So it's 0.0 warfare pushed back a little bit in time. Station hugging doesn't matter when you have POS. You don't camp gates, you camp a system. And the bigger alliances can then do it 24/7, locking down multiple systems of interest. Then you come back and whine because there is no space for "the little buy." There's atleast 1500 systems. Set up to be logistically difficult to get a large number of people through. Then to make it even more difficult each of those systems are set up so that they have tendancies to behave in a certain ways(spawn highsec, lowsec, nulsec, W-sec). Then further tendancies for only living for X time and for X mass. I thourougly believe in CCP's ability to give us a few circles of hell for trying to colonize w-space. I see it as being very difficult for any one group to strangle hold w-space forever. Especially in a system where it's set up to almost completely favor an attacker over a defender(logging off is a ***ch).
Rumba Purring Cute and Friends	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:48:00 - [874] Wow, this is crazy awesome. Based on information released, some of w-space boundary conditions resemble those of other games many of us are familiar with and love, namely Homeworld and Starcraft. Here's what could happen with a w-space system. An expedition group arrives at an empty system. The group consists of several industrials carrying control tower, refining array, assembly array, a ship maintenance bay, and lots of BPCs. Everyone else in the group fly frigates and cruisers because that's all the wormhole will allow through. After the expedition crosses wormhole, it is exhausted and collapses shut. The first order of business is to anchor POS and modules, and start mining. First, you upgrade mining ships to improve flow of minerals. As economy gets better, you can start to build better and larger fighting ships, both for efficient ratting and protection. Now 1 or more expedition groups can arrive any time while this is going on. You can either decide to fight them or join forces. This would be completely open. If you decide to fight, then what could ensue is a fighting game like that of Homeworld/Starcraft. The winner takes all, and the losers will have to self-destruct their pods to wake up back in medical clone back in k-space. If you're successful, at some point, after harvesting enough riches from the w-space, you may want to return to k-space. As soon as a wormhole to a suitable return location has been found, the order is given to fly as many industrials filled with new world riches through the wormhole. My guess is that cargo will be more valuable than whatever you brought to the w-space or you built there. So the returning group may be all industrials and pods. You cay either decide to destroy all your w-space equipment or leave them for future discoverers of the system. Your friends in k-space may be coordinating an operation to receive returning expedition group, since I'm sure there will be pirates looking to attack the returning industrials. In any case, this is all speculation based on limited information released. We'll just have to wait until release and see if this is how it would play out.
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.27 22:55:00 - [875] I've been doing some more thinking and reading the thread, and I'm still of the opinion that under the proposed mechanics, you'll get a Von Neumann runaway that will end up with all the best resources in the hands of the largest alliances (in other words, business as usual) The key is logistics; the big alliances have much better logistics, simply because of their size. To give you a simple example, big alliances can preposition exploitation packages all over their territory (and highsec) that can be used to expand their footholds in W-space systems; this means that not only is a given wormhole more likely to be useful, but their exploitation response time is faster. What this means is that even in a contested system, the alliance with better logistics will be able to import and build infrastructure faster. Whoever has the edge when all the POS's are built is the overwhelming favorite to destroy the enemy and totally dominate the system. Having multiple layers of W-space (with the best resources never directly connecting to K-space) merely slows down this process, and in fact provides an overwhelming logistical superiority to those who control the lower layers. If I were running a large alliance, I would be planning now to make a massive push into W-space, with logistics packages spread all over the place. I would sacrifice everything to this push, even accepting the loss of 0.0 territory during the initial gold-rush phase. 0.0 systems can always be won back; but fortified W-space systems are, under the proposed mechanics, pretty much invulnerable. Of course, since every other large alliance can see the writing on the wall, they'll probably do the same thing, which means that peace will largely descend upon 0.0 for a short while... Note also that if a layered approach to W-space is used, then after the initial colonization of W1 space, W-space will become hugely risky for anyone who is not in an alliance with substantial W1 holdings. Why? Because if you and a gang of your buddies find a wormhole to, say, a BOB-controlled W1 system, BOB's obvious response is to camp the wormhole and collapse it (assuming they have enough manpower, which, eventually, they will have). So you'll find yourself floating around in a hostile system, you won't be able to rat effectively, so no profit, and until you find a wormhole out, you're effectively trapped, and even after you do, you stand a good chance of finding yourself well behind enemy lines in 0.0. There will be opportunities for small-gang ninja ratting and PvP, but that's basically the scraps; the risk/reward simply won't be there. Unless there is something I am totally missing, allowing permanent infrastructure in W-space is just going to entrench the big alliances even more. That said, if POS's were not permitted, but W-space had new types of asteroids that provided the rarer minerals (shattered moons, anyone?), that might provide the economic incentives while at the same time keeping the playing field relatively level, because the wormhole mass limitations would limit the size of a fleet that could enter to exploit a system. The big alliances would still have an edge, but it wouldn't be a permanent one. Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures.
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:05:00 - [876] Hard to read 30 pages, but a small question (with a good possibility it having been asked before) If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted?
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:05:00 - [877] Originally by: permion I see it as being very difficult for any one group to strangle hold w-space forever. Especially in a system where it's set up to almost completely favor an attacker over a defender(logging off is a ***ch). Except that with what we know so far about the current system it's set up to almost completely favor a defender. I'm not saying that it's going to be particularily easy to do that, but this has been thrashed over so many times that I'm sick of it. Ultimately to me, it seems a huge underestimation of exactly how capable alot of the bigger alliances are at taking and holding space. It's not like they've had practice after all. That's enough for me, it's been going round in circles far too long as it is.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:09:00 - [878] Originally by: Johli If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted? It would still have a SystemID
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:16:00 - [879] Originally by: permion There's atleast 1500 systems. Set up to be logistically difficult to get a large number of people through. Then to make it even more difficult each of those systems are set up so that they have tendancies to behave in a certain ways(spawn highsec, lowsec, nulsec, W-sec). Then further tendancies for only living for X time and for X mass. I thourougly believe in CCP's ability to give us a few circles of hell for trying to colonize w-space. I see it as being very difficult for any one group to strangle hold w-space forever. Especially in a system where it's set up to almost completely favor an attacker over a defender(logging off is a *ch). I am not denying that it is difficult. But you also can't deny that a larger (possibly more organized as well) alliance will have an easier time overcoming the difficulties. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:17:00 - [880] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 27/01/2009 22:59:39 I've been doing some more thinking and reading the thread, and I'm still of the opinion that under the proposed mechanics, you'll get a Von Neumann runaway that will end up with all the best resources in the hands of the largest alliances (in other words, business as usual) Alliances can dominate 0.0 because there territory is permanently and predictably linked. Each system is mutually supporting to the next. An example being - K1 < > K2 < > K3 : a blob in K1 can move rapidly to counter a threat in K2. Alternatively a alliance spread across all three systems can easily concentrate it force if any one system is threatend. W-Space is different it will look much more like this: ?? < > W2 < > ?? At specific times the "??" systems might become known, but they wont necessarily link to a system where a given alliance can easily mass it force. In order to pre-empt where the link to the "??" system might appear an alliance will have to spread its force quite thinly across (potentially) the entire EVE Cluster. And thats just to support one system. Granted the large alliances could spread across W-Space, but they will still have isolated pockets W1 might link to W2 on one day, but to W506 system the next. The Alliances, because of their pre eminence, have the 'best' chance of holding some W-Space systems, but they are at less of an advantage in comparison to their holding of .0 space because each system will lack mutual support from its neighbours. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:23:00 - [881] Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Johli If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted? It would still have a SystemID It would be weird, no? "I just got ganked in System 92747680285!!!111"
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:29:00 - [882] Originally by: Johli Originally by: Ki Tarra Originally by: Johli If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted? It would still have a SystemID It would be weird, no? "I just got ganked in System 92747680285!!!111" Or more amusingly in corp chat... "hostile fleet in system er...92747680285...get here quick!" "Huh? How do I get there?" C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:32:00 - [883] Originally by: Pilk Edited by: Pilk on 27/01/2009 18:58:08 As the person who created this set of probe coverage bookmarks, given the developers (especialy the Dbase developers) absolute HATRED of bookmarks (see the Warp to zero nerf) I think we now know why they changed the system!
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:34:00 - [884] one quick note to the POS-discussion: as long as "good" moons isnt the main riches of WH-space, death star POSs shouldn't matter. Especially if they are temporarily unoccupied (pilots offline or on logistics trips). Unlike 0.0 they dont pose a threat.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:43:00 - [885] I am as apprehensive about the scanning changes as I am excited by the wormhole thing. I spent a lot of time and effort honing my skill (not all book training) at scanning for exploration. The changes seem to me to be in the nature of dumbing down exploration... at least the part that requires real world skill. The complexity is part of what drew me to exploration in the first place. ...and by the way, why do scanning probe (suddenly more like drones) have the ability to warp and my combat drone do not? (I don't mean fighters that are as big as ships) Wormholes - yay; Exploration and ship scanning probes separate - to a degree that's the way it is now; Parking in one place and warping your one size fits all probe out to location without the effort to arrange them ahead of time with bookmarks and sweat - sort of disappointing; Useless BPÆs for different probe types - kind of disappointing.
Alora Venoda GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:45:00 - [886] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space. That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example. does this mean that K-K wormholes are a possibility? ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.27 23:49:00 - [887] Originally by: Alora Venoda does this mean that K-K wormholes are a possibility? Yes, it was said later on that it is.
Platte Okeefe Gallente Terminus Traders COOP	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:04:00 - [888] Originally by: Cailais Alliances can dominate 0.0 because there territory is permanently and predictably linked. Each system is mutually supporting to the next. An example being - K1 < > K2 < > K3 : a blob in K1 can move rapidly to counter a threat in K2. Alternatively a alliance spread across all three systems can easily concentrate it force if any one system is threatend. W-Space is different it will look much more like this: ?? < > W2 < > ?? At specific times the "??" systems might become known, but they wont necessarily link to a system where a given alliance can easily mass it force. In order to pre-empt where the link to the "??" system might appear an alliance will have to spread its force quite thinly across (potentially) the entire EVE Cluster. And thats just to support one system. Granted the large alliances could spread across W-Space, but they will still have isolated pockets W1 might link to W2 on one day, but to W506 system the next. The Alliances, because of their pre eminence, have the 'best' chance of holding some W-Space systems, but they are at less of an advantage in comparison to their holding of .0 space because each system will lack mutual support from its neighbours. C. A much more rational post except you forgot one half of the why it won't happen, because planning on any kind of resupply from known space is ludicrous with the number of new systems, and shifting worm holes, plus the likely hood that the exact type raw materials needed in the system you occupy wont be around long since the exploration sites spawn and despawn. Maybe occupancy for a couple weeks, if you are lucky a month or two. But anybody who knows anything about POS logistics knows without a stable flow of logistics, long term viability is not there. And lets say in 250 of those systems, the big alliances lock them down. Then just go look for another wormhole. Theres what 2250 systems left? ;)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:07:00 - [889] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/01/2009 00:08:09 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow If I were running a large alliance, I would be planning now to make a massive push into W-space, with logistics packages spread all over the place. I would sacrifice everything to this push, even accepting the loss of 0.0 territory during the initial gold-rush phase. 0.0 systems can always be won back; but fortified W-space systems are, under the proposed mechanics, pretty much invulnerable. You probably won't listen to me. But you should go ask the CEOs or these large alliances about a lot of your post here. Large alliances mostly work due to a few people who are really good at leadership and motivation, as well as maybe 20 or so people actually doing work. A large alliance works on the backs of a small group of people. So, a large alliances benefit is in its ability to field tons of ships. However, through wormholes this won't be a possibility. Thus, any group of 20 dedicated people are on equal footing. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Raneru Euphoria Released Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:27:00 - [890] Originally by: Patty Loveless How I see the features: We being CCP. We will make the scanning system so easy, an (untrained) monkey can now find the exploration sites that used to take skill, creativity, experience, and time -- thoroughly collapsing the industry We will make it so isk farmers and everyone's ratting alt can just hope through a wormhole in their ishtar (drones means no ammo) and rat for the next 2 years in systems that may not even be reachable anymore We will make it so that potentially the most lucrative thing to do (rat in worm hole space for T3 components), will be one of the safest forms of ratting, with the only real downside being that you may need to wait a bit for a wormhold to open up, but in the mean time, RAT away! Scanning as it is isnt that skillful, I would argue that any untrained monkey can make safespots midwarp and warp to them. The changes hopefully mean spending more time exploring and less time on youtube while the scan timer counts down for the 50th time You are assuming that these npcs have a bounty. I think they won't, being so far from Empire. If they were to say drop parts for T3 production instead of have a bounty and everyone is doing it then the profitability will drop rapidly.

Daryldutch Caldari Relentless Storm Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.28 00:55:00 - [891] There won't be a sovereignty status in the wormhole systems, I is to prevent building of motherships and even titans? And can you still anchor a system scanner array although you don't have the sovereignty? Also you said the AI will act more like pc's instead of npc's but does this mean they also pod and ransom? greetings DD ------------------------- Some people wonder what insanity feels like, I wonder what sanity feels like.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:02:00 - [892] Quote: That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! YARRRR!! OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG please tell me these thing swill be easy to find. AKA not one every 6 systems, please tell me wormholes in general will be EVERYWHERE. Because that would be awesome if were talking 2500 W-space systems and THEN K-systems too! will this effect 0.0 space? will you have massive 100 battleships can go through 0.0 K to 0.0 K space wormholes? muhahahah :P you don't actually have to answer just think about it!
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:04:00 - [893] Originally by: Ordais hm, not sure about this. so you can find the wormwhole with a scanning-ship, but because this ships cant do jack you have to change the ship and go in with another ship, probably BS-size if you want to accomplish anything (new NPC-AI mentioned and what a surprise it will be if you expect the old npcs we are used to). Then you are there but you cant probe back. Good point, hopefully ALL ships have a built in scanner that can be loaded with probes so we don't have to give up valuable high slots for probing space. Hell in RL tiny sail boats have radars and sonars to find fish and navigate in storms. If this goes along with the old idea, which seems to still be coming, to move all belts to exploration, via the onboard scanner, then move all scaning to onbaord scanner but with the addition of different probe types. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:15:00 - [894] Edited by: Mioelnir on 28/01/2009 01:15:10 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Good point, hopefully ALL ships have a built in scanner that can be loaded with probes so we don't have to give up valuable high slots for probing space. Hell in RL tiny sail boats have radars and sonars to find fish and navigate in storms. Where is the "versatility benefit" of fielding a ship with utility highs if good/useful utility modules get builtin so ships with a full rack of bonused weapons don't sacrifice anything for their better weaponload?
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:20:00 - [895] Originally by: Kayn Otar We need some way to keep track of where we have been. If the systems don't have names, then we need to give them names. The only way to do that is with bookmarks. If you don't want bookmarks, then give the systems names, or galactic coordinates, or ID numbers, or ... anything. Not having names is pretty cool, initially. But eventually they will be given names, one way or another. This is a good point, however, there is something else that could be done. Use the properties of the solar system to give them your own names. As I read it, the worm hole systems will be fixed in planets, star, etc. So a system with a blue star and 12 planets with an orange space background could be "B-12-O" ... there, i invented a naming convetion. CCP, do us a favor and add it for us, thanks ;)
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:24:00 - [896] So given that this space is completely removed from empire and concord doesn't have a window into it, does that mean that the rats there won't give bounties?
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.28 01:28:00 - [897] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu I may be advocating demons, but you haven't explained why letting players "settle" and war with each-other is a thing we don't want. Because... a) Being able to live sustainably is not a pre-requisite for conflict. It's only a pre-requisite for alliance scale fleet/capitals/blobs stuff. b) Being able to live sustainably results in diminishing opportunities for new comers, and reduced player movement in the long run. If players aren't moving around, they are largely unaffected by the dynamic wormhole travel mechanic. Find a good system, stay there forever! c) Allowing it would be squandering an opportunity for an entirely different experience. The point of EVE is largely entertainment and fun, and a slightly different approach to the same experience isn't providing a breath of fresh air. From the described purpose of this feature, colonization and epic wars of conquest don't fit into the picture. d) 1-way travel and unsustainable POS would still allow corps to run them for 6-12 months at a time. Short term infrastructure is literally unaffected by this - its the long term buildup of POS and players that is prevented. Now I'm just rehashing what I've said already, but there's a couple reasons for you. Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Seeing as it's nearly impossible to maintain a logistics chain to "deep" w-space (where the really good stuff is), I don't think the frontier would be in danger. You're making extrapolations and assumptions that even if we have 2-way travel, these dark recesses of WH space will be untamed and unsettled just because they're connecting with EVE less frequently. You realize on one trip alone, an expedition of one Orca and a few industrials can bring enough fuel to live for almost 10 months. The chance of direct 2-way K-system links could be 0.5% and it wouldn't be a show-stopper. If anything, its more security because a fleet has to basically roam WH space and stumble into you. Now you answer why the ability to colonize every new frontier with permanent and sustainable infrastructure is necessary.
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:10:00 - [898] I did not say necessary, but it does greatly expand risk/reward. Lose a ship or your pod and everything you've worked for is gone for good - no do-overs. It isn't as much trouble as you seem to assume to assault a lowly defended pos (which any worthwhile pos would be a target of); again, deathstars are just counter-productive to anyone's goals in w-space. The likelihood of surviving for 10 months in one system with hostile combat gangs constantly moving through is very low, moreso when you have to have 4-16 players linked together every time you want to move a single ship/resource in or out. And remember, the alternative to POSes is just cloaking up and camping systems like that - no different except now you can't hit the hostile in system while they're not paying attention (and less risk/reward in general, but that's not what we're discussing).
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:16:00 - [899] Originally by: MotherMoon you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance At its root, an instance is a process, on a CPU, each solar system in eve is a process, on a cpu, sharing threads and memory space - it IS an instance of the so called "solar system node". Eve has lots ond lots of instances. The main difference with Eve is, the instances are persistant and maintain persisteant links with other instances, represented in the game space by gates and soon worm holes. It is not an insult to say eve is "instanced". It is simply instanced differently than some other MMOs. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Zitus	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:18:00 - [900] Congratulations! If you're reading this post, you either just posted or legitimately read the entire thread before posting. I find it funny how many people are asking questions about worm holes when every thing is answered in the first few pages of posts. oh well. fail posters are fail

Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:18:00 - [901] Originally by: Mioelnir Edited by: Mioelnir on 28/01/2009 01:15:10 Originally by: Adunh Slavy Good point, hopefully ALL ships have a built in scanner that can be loaded with probes so we don't have to give up valuable high slots for probing space. Hell in RL tiny sail boats have radars and sonars to find fish and navigate in storms. Where is the "versatility benefit" of fielding a ship with utility highs if good/useful utility modules get builtin so ships with a full rack of bonused weapons don't sacrifice anything for their better weaponload? It's the opposite side of the question, what good is a new space mechanic if the level of effort required to use it makes it such a PITA that is not fun. It's a game, it should be fun, if it's not fun, throw it away. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:22:00 - [902] Edited by: Kessiaan on 28/01/2009 02:27:05 The people saying "ZOMG YOU CAN'T DO LOGISTICS IN W SPACE CAUSE SHIFTING WORMHOLES!" need to read up the last 30 pages or so - it's been explained several times how, under current mechanics, you can pop open a wormhole to anyplace you want from any W system with far more than enough regularity to run logistics through it - the bigger the target area, the larger probability you'll hit it on each attempt. That said I do think the threat of large alliances taking over huge sections of W space is a bit overstated. Every reasonable proposed method for 'settling' W space capitalizes on the facts that W systems always have a K space connection and that connection can be respawned at will. This means that every colonized W system must have a permanent staff sufficient to operate and defend the POS - which means industrialists and gunners, as well as exploration characters to locate system exists and w space exploration sites, and enough combat characters (and maybe miners) to make the whole thing worthwhile. My own guestimations lead me to believe every permanent POS in w-space will need, at a minimum, a 10 person staff, who, critically, can never leave that system. For a tiny corp looking to live on the fringe that's fine. They can all move out there and have a dandy time. For a big alliance though, that means 10 less people that could be doing something else and can't defend the rest of the empire. I think manpower, more than anything else, is what will keep big alliances from taking over more than a few (<20) systems each. All that said, deathstar POS's are horribly unbalanced if they're placed in a location where the ships designed to beat them (namely, dreads) can't reach them. Quote: It's a game, it should be fun, if it's not fun, throw it away. After hearing this come up countless times (not here very much though), I've come to the conclusion 'fun' is a spot on a line between 'relaxing' and 'challenging'. This spot varies from person to person and EvE as a whole is tilted very heavily toward the 'challenging' side of the continuum.
Gtan Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:27:00 - [903] questions like. how do i live in the new solar system. i cant bring blueprints to make ammo or other stuff i need because there are no stations there or pos to build at. and if im a miner. i would need haullers. and maybe want my mining buddy's to come along, and then similar question to pos fuleing. i need to be able to haull the minerals out of the solar system. i hope ccp isnnt going to make eve 46% large and there is no way to live in the new systems because ppl get stuck there because you loose the system if you leave it. think ccp needs to look into these things.
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:28:00 - [904] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Henglar We want giant space whales!!! Space Greenpeace contacted us and threatened Space Boycotts and Space Demonstrations if we put Space Whales into space. Originally by: Williamat Centaurus If wormholes are ALWAYS 2-way, what is the purpose of having K-W and W-K designations when they are exactly the same thing? The design's being worked on in response to the feedback in this thread and there is a good chance that they won't end up being the same thing. Well, they'll look the same but they'll work in a different manner. Can't say much more than that right now because...well there isn't much more than that. K-W and W-K just depends on where you are in reference to the wormhole
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:28:00 - [905] Originally by: Kessiaan The people saying "ZOMG YOU CAN'T DO LOGISTICS IN W SPACE CAUSE SHIFTING WORMHOLES!" need to read up the last 30 pages or so - it's been explained several times how, under current mechanics, you can pop open a wormhole to anyplace you want from any W system with far more than enough regularity to run logistics through it - the bigger the target area, the larger probability you'll hit it on each attempt. That said I do think the threat of large alliances taking over huge sections of W space is a bit overstated. Every reasonable proposed method for 'settling' W space capitalizes on the facts that W systems always have a K space connection and that connection can be respawned at will. This means that every colonized W system must have a permanent staff sufficient to operate and defend the POS - which means industrialists and gunners, as well as exploration characters to locate system exists and w space exploration sites, and enough combat characters (and maybe miners) to make the whole thing worthwhile. My own guestimations lead me to believe every permanent POS in w-space will need, at a minimum, a 10 person staff, who, critically, can never leave that system. For a tiny corp looking to live on the fringe that's fine. They can all move out there and have a dandy time. For a big alliance though, that means 10 less people that could be doing something else and can't defend the rest of the empire. I think manpower, more than anything else, is what will keep big alliances from taking over more than a few (<20) systems each. All that said, deathstar POS's are horribly unbalanced if they're placed in a location where the ships designed to beat them (namely, dreads) can't reach them. Every alliance I know of that is worth anything can afford to put a dozen or more alts in a system just for the sole purpose of keeping it occupied and defended. Ffs, most alliances have dozens upon dozens of alts that are 'wasted' simply for cyno chains. The larger the alliance (numerically) the easier it will be for them to use alts to occupy w-space systems.
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:36:00 - [906] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures; possible later expansion of game mechanics. i am going to have to grudgingly agree with you, ive mulled over it quite a bit but there is no real way to allow small corp POSes without allowing large alliance asshattery. and given how epic this can be, and how crappy it could be if it is done wrong, i would air on the side of caution. POSs should not be allowed to be set up in wormspace
Hi Lo Faulty Solutions	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:40:00 - [907] What about jumping?
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:48:00 - [908] Originally by: Hi Lo What about jumping? read the entire thread, your questions will be answered Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:50:00 - [909] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures; possible later expansion of game mechanics. i am going to have to grudgingly agree with you, ive mulled over it quite a bit but there is no real way to allow small corp POSes without allowing large alliance asshattery. and given how epic this can be, and how crappy it could be if it is done wrong, i would air on the side of caution. POSs should not be allowed to be set up in wormspace I'll +1 this. The 'little guys' can still operate out of an Orca (which should fit through at least a good chunk of highsec gates) without too many issues it seems - it can carry 3 HACs (or T3 cruisers since they'll likely be a similar size) + a prober and some shuttles and a couple of AFs and has loads of room for loot. The bluebar posts from 10 pages or so ago imply that only the mass of the ship itself counts when going through a wormhole, so if you were feeling especially adventurous you could take some BS through as well - if worst comes to worst you can unfit them at the Orca and self-destruct them for insurance if you have to leave them behind. Without POS's though mining is out - you can't moon mine at all and without a refinery belt mining is completely impractical.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:54:00 - [910] Hrmm Will jumpbrides work in w-space? Originally by: Akita T Seriously ? ...wow... I'm such a forum ho' !

Zex Maxwell Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.28 02:58:00 - [911] Originally by: Lance Fighter Hrmm Will jumpbrides work in w-space? No, JBs work only in claimed 0.0. W-space will not be claimable, aka pos warfare or sovereignty space
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.28 03:00:00 - [912] oh duh, forgot the sov requirements Originally by: Akita T Seriously ? ...wow... I'm such a forum ho' !
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.28 03:22:00 - [913] ok i hope a dev will clear this up. i am under the impression that these systems are not desinged for those ppl that have played forever. there are a lot of ppl even 3 yrs old that have never seen a fair chance at 0.0 space. if you do not have an interest in joining some umber ally, or just ninja rating, mining. of being just a number in the spread sheet. then this is the chance. semi fair pvp, limited by what they can get in a WH, so none of the 10 ppl gate camping, and if you even have a chance to match them they have reinforcements heading you way. this will see many 1-10 man gangs running around in a very pvp oriented setting. now, the industralist will be needed for the transorm of the rat drops to t3 parts. offer miners a chance to mine some 0.0 ores with only minamal risk, not the sure chance that if they are not in an ally they are dead. ok. these systems are not meant for you to stay in.but the idea of it being possible seams to apeal to the devs, but they don't seam to want this to be some new version of 0.0 where you will need to be in an ally to be able to have fun doing this. most ppl need to just stop and think if you started today, what would be popen to you. and try to be realistic, you would not want to have to be a bob or goon or anybody to be able to go 0.0 and have a chance. and if ccp is to continue they need to be able to get new ppl in. now they don't want to take away to much from the ppl already here, but to be able to offer the newer ppl some chance to have a fair fight.and it will be nice to see how many of the "carebears" beat up the bullies in these systems were they have some chance. this offers an equal risk to a person from a small corp to beat a person from an umber ally. so i don't understand why a real pvp person would not love the idea, and explorers will be even more valued, and industrialist will be umber important as well. so it seams that it is a win or win if they don't let there easily be ways to have continued W space occupancy, or if they don't let it happen at all. but if they do let it, the smaller corps will most likely be the ones doing it most. if you remember when you first started you wanted to beable to cut your own piece of the pie. this will give that, and even big ally's will not have the chance to monopolize large portions of this space (even though it rarely has anyone in it). the number of ppl it would take to control each system and do the logistic for it, will mean that they will acutely have to occupy it, not just claim sov and look at map to see if any one is going in there space. i am so looking forwards to this, hope the davs keep up the good work, and do not cave to the grievers in here crying that they will not beable to get an unfair advantage over ppl to gank them. or the large ally's that wish to keep all super good content under there thumb.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:29:00 - [914] Originally by: JimBob Leeroy i am under the impression that these systems are not desinged for those ppl that have played forever. there are a lot of ppl even 3 yrs old that have never seen a fair chance at 0.0 space. You you never wandered into 0.0 in the 3 years you played, you won't be heading out to wormspace either. Maybe once, like you did long ago as you got ganked at a low-sec gate camp, for never to return again. It matters not what riches awaits on the other side, as long as you're not willing to risk your little pod you're not going anywhere.
Reptzo Channel 4 News Team	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:36:00 - [915] Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've not finalized activation yet; we have discussed doing it by proximity, and it might well go in like that If you do impliment activation by proximity, would you be able to change Jump Bridges on titans and such to use proximity? This would be awesome, just activate jump bridge, and have everyone fly towards you, when they get close enough they auto jump. Very very useful. Or camp a gate, with the bridge active, sucking in everyone who passes by, just for lulz.
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:39:00 - [916] I have a question about the surrounding backgrounds of W-Space; will it be similar to the backgrounds in K-Space where the solar systems are Binary or will they be completely different? It makes sense that K-space require Binary solar systems for jump gates to operate ( Eve Online Scientific Article), but since W-Space has nothing like that, have there been plans to include neutron stars, magnetars, pulsars, super giants and other things that wouldn't usually be found in Binary solar systems?
Tu Pham Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:48:00 - [917] Originally by: ardik When you add thousands of generic systems to an already barren and generic 0.0, and then think this will lead to anything but, in practice, instanced PVE, then you're just ****ing stupid. Wormholes in most 0.0 systems (and some low-sec systems) may be like this, but wormholes from high-sec will likely be crawling with people (all wanting to blow each other up probably).
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:50:00 - [918] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Styre Blixtsnabb 4. Finally and most importantly will there be Pie? 4) No, pie is not compatible with the dark, dangerous nature of EVE. We replaced it with Black Forest Gateaux, which meets the necessary criteria. Le gGteau est un mensonge!!!!! pie can be found in a variety of colors
ArsenalOfCharm Fifth Exiled Legion	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:56:00 - [919] ENN Article containing highlights from this thread Written for players without the time or patience to sift through 30 pages for answers if a Dev or Mod link in the first post of the thread it would be appreciated.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:56:00 - [920] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: MotherMoon you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance At its root, an instance is a process, on a CPU, each solar system in eve is a process, on a cpu, sharing threads and memory space - it IS an instance of the so called "solar system node". Eve has lots ond lots of instances. The main difference with Eve is, the instances are persistant and maintain persisteant links with other instances, represented in the game space by gates and soon worm holes. It is not an insult to say eve is "instanced". It is simply instanced differently than some other MMOs. bingo

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:00:00 - [921] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures; possible later expansion of game mechanics. i am going to have to grudgingly agree with you, ive mulled over it quite a bit but there is no real way to allow small corp POSes without allowing large alliance asshattery. and given how epic this can be, and how crappy it could be if it is done wrong, i would air on the side of caution. POSs should not be allowed to be set up in wormspace Other than bombs and a few other things, In eve, the game logic is if you can, you should be able to. Unless NPCs come and blow up your station there is no reason not to be allowed to deploy a POS with the already set in place fuel requirements. DO you really understand how much of a pain in the ass it is going to be to refuel even ONE POS? With the number of systems in 0.0 space and the number of these systems, you'll have 1000 of POSes just sitting there, getting killed by frigates. what happens when a POS runs oout of fuel? in Wormhole space it should be instantly taken down by NPCs. If a large allaince can take 5 Wormhole system then... awesome, good for them. They will be the hardest thing to defend the game has ever seen.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:01:00 - [922] Originally by: Tu Pham Originally by: ardik When you add thousands of generic systems to an already barren and generic 0.0, and then think this will lead to anything but, in practice, instanced PVE, then you're just ****ing stupid. Wormholes in most 0.0 systems (and some low-sec systems) may be like this, but wormholes from high-sec will likely be crawling with people (all wanting to blow each other up probably). so what he was saying was 0.0 is PvE paradise.
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:01:00 - [923] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: MotherMoon you know by ardiks logic, every system in eve is an instance At its root, an instance is a process, on a CPU, each solar system in eve is a process, on a cpu, sharing threads and memory space - it IS an instance of the so called "solar system node". Eve has lots ond lots of instances. The main difference with Eve is, the instances are persistant and maintain persisteant links with other instances, represented in the game space by gates and soon worm holes. It is not an insult to say eve is "instanced". It is simply instanced differently than some other MMOs. bingo Bottom line is that eve is awesome whether it is instanced, deep fried or sauteed
Artmedis Valben Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:18:00 - [924] Ok so 2500 new 0.0 systems that can't be claimed for sov, and that cannot be built into regional bower blocs. Alliances may claim a few h8undred, but a small determined group of players has nearly the same abality to claim them. Each of the systems that will be claimed will have to be claimed individually with a permanent presence of 10-20 characters. Any strong roaming PvP gang of 5-10 characters will have little to fear from such POS huggers. Some of the systems will rarely if ever connect directly to K-Space, those that regularily do will be of 3 types (high sec, low sec, and 0.0 sec) meaning just to which sec status wormholes from them will most often spawn to. Wormholes in K-Space will be distributed on a constellation rotatation, i.e., each constellation will have a couple of wormholes to be found at anytime and most of these will connect to the W-space systems that most commonly link to the relevant sec category. Some of the W-Space systems will rarely if ever connect directly to K-Space these will be hardest to permanently colonise and have the most valuable T3 exploration content. In the initial Gold rush phase, it will be the exploration content that will be most valuable. In 2500 systems there should be roughly 30-40 Dyspro moons and the same amount of Prom moons. Other regular assets will be of limited value to roamers, but essential to prolonged conquest. Most expeditions will be either the roaming gang of entering, exploring/ratting and leaving through same WH as they entered in a couple of hours. Or they will be prolonged Industrial exercises with POSes, which will often be abandoned when the reserve of the settlers has been depleted. The 70 or so uber valuable moons in the 2500 systems will eventually be claimed, but making sure they will not be contested will take considerable manpower, severely limiting how many such systems even the largest of alliances can realistically claim without losing their Iron grip on wast tracks of K-Space. A small alliance/medium sized corp with 20 committed players will just as easily be able to hold such a system as one of the large alliances. All it takes is a commitment to permanently live in a single system relying on alts to bring supplies to suitable WHs found. And you need continuous presence if you want to remain safe. POS maintenance alts will miss WHs that have formed and may overlook the erection of a rival POS. Other than the 70 dyspro/prom deathstars that may eventually become a permanent fixture, and perhaps another 4-500 semi-permant Industrial bases with a good moon. Most POSes in W-Space will be temporary operational bases, many of which will be abandoned over time. Might be good if POSes would just unanchor if left offline for more than 90 days for later explorers to find... I will bet on the roaming gang to be more common approach to "harvest" T3 comps, cloaks and scanners mandatory for most ships. Most player ships in such gangs will be HAC/Recon or larger. Most Carebears in high sec will not risk venturing there, no matter what the possible rewards will be. W-Space systems that are so securely held that a roaming gang will be hunted and killed by the resident players will be extremely rare. even in a year's time I expect 70-80% of W-Space to be empty of settlers when a roaming gang arrives. The design is great. There will be a frontier feel to W-Space for years to come, and it will be easy to enlarge W-Space ad infinitum. just my two cents... Selling: PERFECT PRINTS + RESEARCH
Back Again Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:29:00 - [925] Originally by: CCP Greyscale The probe system is sort of moving in two directions at once. The current system is difficult to learn but once you know how to do it the only "hard" part is making midwarp bookmarks to cover awkward planets. It's also got a very high effective barrier of entry skill-wise if you want to find things in a reasonably quick time. The new system should be easier to learn to the point where you know roughly what you're trying to do and roughly how to do it, and will have a lower barrier to entry skill-wise. However, those skills will still give people an edge and, more importantly, the speed at which you can find things should vary much more significantly according to the player-skill of the person doing the probing. We want everyone to be able to have a go and succeed (eventually), but we also want people who've taken the time to skill up and learn the system to have a noticeable advantage. Can you, please, say how noticiable will be the advantage of training: 760,000 SP in Astrometrics 1,280,000 SP in Astrometric Pinpointing 1,280,000 SP in Astrometric Triangulation 2,048,000 SP in Signal Acquisition 1,024,000 SP in Covert Ops There is a TOTAL of 6,392,000 SP in skills, from what 5,368,000 used ONLY in exploration when a new Char with mere 900,000 SP in general will be able to do the same in (insert a noticiable time/accuracy/whatever here)--- well, maybe months training, not even talking about the skills necessary as prerequisite. No signature here, only the bright light of a ship exploding right in front of me... Ohhh, wait, I'm in a pod!! It was my ship!!!
Dorh Uemh	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:30:00 - [926] When I read about wandering 2-way wormholes the first thought in my head was a similar scenario from an episode of Star Trek. I know that from scans you can tell how much mass can move through the wormhole before it collapses but will you also get a rough idea of its time? I don't expect an exact time-to-collapse from a scan but maybe something like a visual cue (animated in space) or some sort of energy scale when scanning the wormhole would be very useful. Also, are wormhole lives measured in minutes/hours/days/weeks (assuming nothing causes the mass counter to exceed its threshold)? I also have an interesting idea for wormhole collapse. Maybe an area-of-effect damage from the massive amount of energy being dispersed from the collapse. I would assume that the collapse would have a delay after it closes to give smaller ships with no tank time to evac from the area. Have the damage be omni but fairly low level or high in EM with trace dmg from other types.
Geezelbub	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:33:00 - [927] First off I'd would like to thank CCP Whisper for his pertinent responses I gave up after 20 pages...sorry What continues to amaze me is the fact that certain low-life= no effort in game people continue to spam this thread with their "ideas" that will help their poor 5 yr old characters kill some more noobs! Gee....my heart bleeds for ya! My character, in less than a year, has prolly made more isk than you "pirates" have made killing poor dummies who venture into 0,0. CCP, ignore the one account maladjusted idiots....you can make this a whole new ball game. BUT if, as other samart guys have said, you allow the monster corps the ability to dominate, it is all for naught. Simple solution... If you have already have a POS.....ya can't build one in WH space! or transfer it, or the corp ownership to anyone that does. I mean let's get real here.......don't the greeedy monsters have enough already. 0,0 is a hole and you/they made it that way....get creative folks!
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:49:00 - [928] Originally by: MotherMoon DO you really understand how much of a pain in the ass it is going to be to refuel even ONE POS? This will largely depend on how random are worm holes. Right now, with exploration, the same exploration sites drift around the same constellation, you will find it again and again and again. So, will "W-Space system XYZ-123" always drift around constellation ABC with random links to W-space systems XYZ-nnn, In other words, does a K-W wormhole, to a given system, always exist in the same area, like current exploration sites, if so, colonization will be rather simple. The tough ones will be the W-space systems that can only be accessed by W-W wormholes, and I bet that's where the big prizes will be. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Blasterella	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:53:00 - [929] Any thoughts about having the onboard scanner be able to find W-K, but still requiring probes to K-W or W-W? Possibly having probes find safe W-K and the scanner find a lower quality W-K, so there's damage or some of the items in your hold don't materialize properly? This might allow some ships w/o probes to get home to K-Space ... but with a non-trivial penalty
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.01.28 06:15:00 - [930] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures; possible later expansion of game mechanics. i am going to have to grudgingly agree with you, ive mulled over it quite a bit but there is no real way to allow small corp POSes without allowing large alliance asshattery. and given how epic this can be, and how crappy it could be if it is done wrong, i would air on the side of caution. POSs should not be allowed to be set up in wormspace Other than bombs and a few other things, In eve, the game logic is if you can, you should be able to. Unless NPCs come and blow up your station there is no reason not to be allowed to deploy a POS with the already set in place fuel requirements. DO you really understand how much of a pain in the ass it is going to be to refuel even ONE POS? With the number of systems in 0.0 space and the number of these systems, you'll have 1000 of POSes just sitting there, getting killed by frigates. what happens when a POS runs oout of fuel? in Wormhole space it should be instantly taken down by NPCs. If a large allaince can take 5 Wormhole system then... awesome, good for them. They will be the hardest thing to defend the game has ever seen. this... meet this Originally by: Kessiaan Edited by: Kessiaan on 28/01/2009 02:27:05 The people saying "ZOMG YOU CAN'T DO LOGISTICS IN W SPACE CAUSE SHIFTING WORMHOLES!" need to read up the last 30 pages or so - it's been explained several times how, under current mechanics, you can pop open a wormhole to anyplace you want from any W system with far more than enough regularity to run logistics through it - the bigger the target area, the larger probability you'll hit it on each attempt. That said I do think the threat of large alliances taking over huge sections of W space is a bit overstated. Every reasonable proposed method for 'settling' W space capitalizes on the facts that W systems always have a K space connection and that connection can be respawned at will. This means that every colonized W system must have a permanent staff sufficient to operate and defend the POS - which means industrialists and gunners, as well as exploration characters to locate system exists and w space exploration sites, and enough combat characters (and maybe miners) to make the whole thing worthwhile. My own guestimations lead me to believe every permanent POS in w-space will need, at a minimum, a 10 person staff, who, critically, can never leave that system. For a tiny corp looking to live on the fringe that's fine. They can all move out there and have a dandy time. For a big alliance though, that means 10 less people that could be doing something else and can't defend the rest of the empire. I think manpower, more than anything else, is what will keep big alliances from taking over more than a few (<20) systems each. All that said, deathstar POS's are horribly unbalanced if they're placed in a location where the ships designed to beat them (namely, dreads) can't reach them. Quote: It's a game, it should be fun, if it's not fun, throw it away. After hearing this come up countless times (not here very much though), I've come to the conclusion 'fun' is a spot on a line between 'relaxing' and 'challenging'. This spot varies from person to person and EvE as a whole is tilted very heavily toward the 'challenging' side of the continuum.

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:16:00 - [931] Edited by: Armoured C on 28/01/2009 07:20:48 MAOR PICS , at least give us a pic of a wormhole or something other wise i will just own this thread .... remember GD anyone
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:55:00 - [932] As far as I understand W-Space will be 'instanced' in that sense that they are not actually present in EVE universe. By that I mean that their location (in geometrical sense) is not determined in relation to K-Space. Those are not a 'true' starsystems, those are set of pregenerated starsystems (same as every K-Space system ofc) that are loaded when someone enters them (same as K-Space systems). They are just in 'nowhere', not in EVE galaxy. At least that is the impression I'm getting by the dev answers so far. Especially the cyno related answers. One day dev's might ofc determine those starsystems geometrical locations in EVE cluster, but at this moment it's not done, either bcos of lack of resources or bcos of design decision. They might be changed into 'true' starsystems when we get the 'real' backgrounds for starsystems, ie when you travel towards nebula you see it getting bigger instead of current static skyboxses.
Exus Smoke and Fly Academy Roids'Are'Us	Posted - 2009.01.28 08:32:00 - [933] Question : How will works the security status hits while killing rats in the belts in wormland ?
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 08:39:00 - [934] Originally by: Exus Question : How will works the security status hits while killing rats in the belts in wormland ? No word yet on WHO the rats will be. If they are of the existing pirate factions (unlikely), then I would expect similar security status affects. If they are unknowns, with little/no CONCORD relations, I would expect little/no sec status effects.
croou Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.28 08:46:00 - [935] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: LegendaryFrog How do you plan on addressing what has already become somewhat of a balance issue with ammo usage. It would seem to me that these relatively closed off areas give even more of an advantage to the Amarr player who needs not worry about storing ammo (thus taking up precious cargo space to be able to actually gain something from this new space) and not being able to fire his guns. The downside to Amarr ships is that they're particularly vulnerable to capacitor-draining modules on for example NPCs. I think this will end up balancing out. If you make cap draining NPC common you unbalance heavily hybrid using ships. They will have both disadvantages. Cap draining weapons influenced by NPC cap draining and limited quantity of ammunitions. A very valid point to be made, especially seeing as how it's stated here that these new NPC's will switch targets midfight(i'd assume they'll be targeting drones aswell) ensuring that it's going to become heavliy slanted towards using lasers over any other weaponsystem. Other than that concern it's all pure sexx as far as i can tell.
Fulham FC	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:01:00 - [936] Will the NPCs in W-space have bounties on them?
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:28:00 - [937] I could see some interesting things happening. Player build stargates, that transform W-space to K-space. It would be a more interesting idea to expand K-space then just adding whole new regions with expansions. Adding more W-space could be pretty dynamic (and relatively easy) if I read correctly between the lines. With 2500 new systems to explore, I suspect that entry into W-space would be relatively easy, thus very few required skills. Am I correct in assuming that if a wormhole is found, no additional skills are required to pass through the wormhole?
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:36:00 - [938] Deathstars in W-space. I have to agree with some of the previous posters. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. So chances are the first deathstars on the moons will be there forever. Running the POS once set up will be just a case of transporting in POS fuel and taking out the minerals once a month or so. Fairly easy to do even for a single account. Especially with the wormhole mechanic of closing the wormhole until you get a favourable connection to K-space. Possible Solutions: 1. POS limits The first solution I can think of is limiting W-space to small POS only. This, in my opinion, is the very least that needs to happen given the power of POS in W-space. What would be even better would be a "W-space POS" that is designed specifically to work in W-space. This tower would have much smaller amounts of shield and armour than even a small POS. (Say enough to be taken out in 15mins by 5 BS). It would be able to fit mining modules and a good amount of other non-aggressive modules like hangars and stuff. But it would have a very limited amount of "slots" for POS weaponry. This would give a base of operations and a mining platform, as well as some defense, but would allow the POS to be killed by a small force. 1.b Wormhole collapse mechanic change: Along with the above vital change. I also think it makes sence to hinder people gaming the system by collapsing wormholes and then finding the new entrance so easily. One way to do this is to have the exit from wormhole space hidden until someone in K-space discovers their end and flys through, or until a set amount of time has expired. Say 3 hours or something. 2. Wormhole mechanics change Another option is to change the way wormholes act. If you cant scan for an exit wormhole while in wormhole space, you cant keep logistics open to your POS indefinately. This would mean that the W-space would eventually become closed to the POS owner, and the POS would be abandoned. This would also necessitate the ability to get back from wormhole space through the wormhole you entered even after a wormhole has collapsed, otherwise there would be no way out for the POS crew at all. You would also need a POS in W-space to dissapear after time, as even an offlined large POS would take hours for a small team to destroy. Or perhaps allow the offlined POS to be salvaged by the new occupants or something. Problems with this idea: It loses a lot of the "being lost" feel in W-space as you can always get back the way you came in. Its a big change to current mechanics. It is still possible to game this system by paying new explorers to your W system for the location of the new wormhole entrance in K-space. Conclusion: I prefer the first option with the "k-space" tower. At least it wont be invulnerable, and will have a much greater chance at only being temporary. Other than this expolitable mechanic though, I really like the wormhole space idea.
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:42:00 - [939] There's been a lot of talk about ways to limit logistics because of POS's, like having wormholes be one way. I'd just like to point out that one way wormholes would make most of W-space essentially un-mineable. I have my doubts about people flying Orca's into W-space and having the wormhole shut behind them, but to guarantee that it shuts? Then you have to wander through an unknown number of W-space systems to find a way back to normal space? Orcas are pretty fat targets already... Just pulling an existing large gravimetric site's worth of ore out of a system is going to exceed the wormhole sizes that the Devs suggested for most hi-sec wormholes, especially if you use an Orca. Dozens of industrial warps, an Orca, some BS to fight off the 'new, improved ai, rats', a bunch of hulks... There'd better be some fantastically valuable ore in these systems to make it worth getting your mining fleet stranded by some joker collapsing the wormhole on you after doing an instantaneous ship scan.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:46:00 - [940] Edited by: fuxinos on 28/01/2009 09:46:40 In my oppinion, this Wormholestuff wont be intresting for to long. I mean, whats to point of all this unkownblabla anyway? For how long will these systems be unkown, till everyone has a POS in there, or if ppl roam through the systems like in 0.0? To be able to set up a POS in there or to be able to roam around in that space to pvp, without a constant risk, completly kills the feeling of real unknown space... After 1 month or so it will just feel like a 2nd 0.0 with a thiny bit diffrent mechanics and nothingelse. BORING!

Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:49:00 - [941] Will nanofibers and polycarbon rigs reduce mass as in let you into the wormhole for less mass? If so you could fit amarr bs with 8 nanofibers and then refit at a carrier once inside the wormhole? Another use for rorquals is to bring in compressed POS fuel such as 1000 blocks of compressed ice or compressed dark glitter then set up a medium pos and refining array Are the wormhole moon static--suppose i find a wormhole system and label it XYZ. Then I probe the moons... Are those moon scans for XYZ permanent for the game or will the moons change or deplete?
Shil'Deis Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.28 09:54:00 - [942] There is no way to prevent big alliances from holding some territory in W-space, and they will eventualy get some of the best, but i doubt they will be abel to control just loads and loads of sistems, becuse they will have to split their limited forces to cover all their teritory, wich, asuming most W-Systems can be reached from k-space, will be opened to attack at some point in time, and some may be opened at the same time. So even small alliances or even corps could in theory have the strenght to perform hit and runs atacks against large entities who's power based is in k-space. However we may see W-space alliances who will have no real chance against a k-space alliance in a normal engagement but will be more then able to use w-space mechanics to take and hold w-systems and be a match for normal alliances who will alwayse have to hold back considerable forces to hold their 0.0 holdings. It all depends on how w-space works in the end. It would be interesting to be abel to make some star charts of w-space wich could be sold, i.e. scanning the belts and moons and then to be abel to upload said information to some one else A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon it adds up to real money. Senator Everett Dirksen US politician (1896 - 1969)
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:04:00 - [943] Whats a matter with this scenario... 1) alliances are rich 2) they enter a wormhole 3) they set up a small tower on EVERYMOON and dont fuel them 4) when they get time, they sort out the moons they want and fuel them 5) as the game evolves, they just online towers as they rediscover wormholes "Hey guys, it's been 3 months but i happenned on that small tower in XYZ 45... You know the promethium moon?" "Awesome--we ill get a rorqual ready tonight" I mean some people have 10s of billions of isk... Setting up 200 or even 2000 small towers sounds stupid, but they are just spending 5% of their isk...
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:06:00 - [944] Originally by: Shil'Deis Edited by: Shil''Deis on 28/01/2009 09:56:21 There is no way to prevent big alliances from holding some territory in W-space, and they will eventualy get some of the best... And this should not happen, if CCP makes the mechanic so easy, then this space should not be called unknown space. It kills the feeling of it, like factional warfare has no feeling as of a big war at all.... But I guess this is just Eve and CCP likes to make boring stuff...
Lijhal	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:14:00 - [945] dear ccp, your idea about that wormhole part is just amazing ...iam really excited to see this in the next expansion... but honestly, i can say that within a month or less, people will metagame the crap out of it with pos'es around multiple w-spaces! i like the entire idea, really .. but consider to remove the POS part in w-space ... instead take NovaFox idea of science vessels, make them some sort of mobile moon harvester with limited cargo etc and go for it! As some people posted, you'll need only a few alts to managed the entire pos in w-space, logging out in ff and gaining profit without any risk ... after a week, your corpmates managed to find a wormhole which leads into this w-space, and transport fuel in and loot out ... not fair! Also i beg you, to consider the new scanning mechanism ... some people learned almost all scanning skills to the maximum, spended time to make scanning quicker and better ... now, if you change the entire system, please consider that people with better scanning skill should be in advance against lower skilled people, in every possible game experience thx
DJTheBaron Caldari FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:18:00 - [946] Originally by: Fulham FC Will the NPCs in W-space have bounties on them? Lets hope not, isk farmer finds quiet w-system where its possible he may not show in local, and lives there forever, in between occasional probe ganks.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:24:00 - [947] Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 10:31:49 Originally by: fuxinos Originally by: Shil'Deis Edited by: Shil''Deis on 28/01/2009 09:56:21 There is no way to prevent big alliances from holding some territory in W-space, and they will eventualy get some of the best... And this should not happen, if CCP makes the mechanic so easy, then this space should not be called unknown space. It kills the feeling of it, like factional warfare has no feeling as of a big war at all.... But I guess this is just Eve and CCP likes to make boring stuff... There's a simple way to deal with this. When a tower runs out of fuel - x days later it can be scooped by anybody else. If x is sufficiently short then it encourages better POS planning, logistics and helps turn-over of the moons. It's been discussed by CSM/CCP - so might be implemented in the not too distant future. Personally I'd like it to be around 7-10 days. This would also help the problem of Death Star POS's and allow more effective blockades of systems - you'd be able to starve people out. It's also way too early to propose nerfing POS's in W-Space. We don't know what the effect of having complex & random connections between systems will be. Let alone how having 0.0 NPC's will affect logistics. POS refueling won't just be about moving haulers through the space - you'll need scouts and probably combat ships. You're not going to get far if you're scrammed & webbed by the NPCs without support. We do know that it's not going to be easy to navigate the space and as such this will have an impact on the speed of any player infrastructure in the region. The avg WH size, duration & number of WH's in a system is a big unknown. The NPC's will be semi-intelligent and with a dmg output/tank somewhere around what currently exists in 0.0.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:26:00 - [948] Well, it is kind of the nature of the unknown, that it doesn't stay that for long. My view is that the point of exploration is not to see the unknown, but to turn the unknown into the known. Yes, this system has a lifetime. They have already hinted that there might be 'future advances' that would potentially allow manipulating the wormholes in some way, also the possibility of clone jump capability in the future. This is not an ever unexplored area, it is, in my eyes, the frontier. It will be pushed into until the unknown is the known, and can become the norm. The American west was once a vast 'inhospitable place'. It is certainly not that anymore. Does that mean the exploration of it was pointless?
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:29:00 - [949] Originally by: DJTheBaron Originally by: Fulham FC Will the NPCs in W-space have bounties on them? Lets hope not, isk farmer finds quiet w-system where its possible he may not show in local, and lives there forever, in between occasional probe ganks. I seriously doubt there will be any direct isk generation in W-Space. The NPC's there are likely unknown to the empires, therefore no basis for a bounty system. With no SCC presence, I'm betting the 'Locals' wouldn't even use isk anyway.
ForceM Gallente POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:45:00 - [950] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: DJTheBaron Originally by: Fulham FC Will the NPCs in W-space have bounties on them? Lets hope not, isk farmer finds quiet w-system where its possible he may not show in local, and lives there forever, in between occasional probe ganks. I seriously doubt there will be any direct isk generation in W-Space. The NPC's there are likely unknown to the empires, therefore no basis for a bounty system. With no SCC presence, I'm betting the 'Locals' wouldn't even use isk anyway. Hmmm .. he has a point here. In the same way i would suspect they should not have the same types of salvage either. So: no isk / no T1 or T2 salvage ....hmmm

Gnarouh Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:46:00 - [951] Ballancing / The Big Score Hey - really love all the attention this is getting. 3 questions: A: Ballancing i know is allways a rought question to answer, im wondering what is being implemented, to make this a viable trade. It seems that the risk in this wormhole buisness is way bigger than other methods of making isk in eve, and has been hinted that the reward is bigger. So in order not to make this the "Everyone should make their isk like this" has some "system" or philosophy been implemented ? B; The big score, the draw to exploration when it first hit eve, was the posibility of getting that huge payday, the excitement that Maybe this one is "the one" has been the drive for many. though due to sov, i can understand that this has been somewhat deminished again. Could the answer to A posibly be the question posed here in B? :) (golddiggers unite) C: There is speculation if not proof, that the old exploration system will have the same sites spawn within the same constelation. I think its been explained that wormholes will materialise Galaxy-wide when respawning, but to make it clear i would like to pose the questions anyways. Will a wormhole found in region A be able to despawn and materialice in Region B ?
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:50:00 - [952] Suggestion/idea: Ships specifically aimed at exploration should be able to pass through wormholes without decreasing mass allowance. Basically this idea is suggested to maintain the role of covops, so that you can use a covop to scout a wormhole without reducing size of the wormhole. After all, their role is to scout, isn't it? So, the idea could be that every level in covert ops should reduce by 20% the mass lost by a covop passing through a wormhole (NOT stealth bombers though), so that a lvl5 pilot can scout any WH without affecting his mass allowance. Covops are not exactly fighting platforms, nor can carry anything of significance except more probes, so I don't see a problem in giving them a free ticket to W-space. Initially I also considered to allow recon ships a similar bonus, since they have a similar role, but they are not at all as defenseless as covops (especially the non-stealth variant). Maybe a bonus of 10% per recon ship level? In this way even a maxed out recon would still reduce mass allowed on the WH, just not as much as a HAC. Or maybe just forget about a the bonus for recons.
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:50:00 - [953] Originally by: Zackalwe Deathstars in W-space. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 10:51:00 - [954] What's the current thinking about the average number of wormholes that will be available at any point in time (found or yet to be discovered) from K-Space to W-Space?
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:05:00 - [955] Originally by: Red 7 What's the current thinking about the average number of wormholes that will be available at any point in time (found or yet to be discovered) from K-Space to W-Space? Somewhere a little less that 2500 probably? there are 2500 W-Space systems, most of which will have a K-Space link most of the time. Some will have none, but instead contain a W-W link, some will contain 2 k-space links, or a K and a W-W.. Still seems it will average out to around 2500...
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:07:00 - [956] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Originally by: Zackalwe Deathstars in W-space. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Especially, given the high probability of local being 'fixed' at least in W-Space, you would have a decent amount of time to move your second wave into the W-System before the residents happen to stumble upon you in whatever deep SS you park your cloaked 1st wave at. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:14:00 - [957] Originally by: Clansworth Well, it is kind of the nature of the unknown, that it doesn't stay that for long. My view is that the point of exploration is not to see the unknown, but to turn the unknown into the known. Yes, this system has a lifetime. They have already hinted that there might be 'future advances' that would potentially allow manipulating the wormholes in some way, also the possibility of clone jump capability in the future. This is not an ever unexplored area, it is, in my eyes, the frontier. It will be pushed into until the unknown is the known, and can become the norm. The American west was once a vast 'inhospitable place'. It is certainly not that anymore. Does that mean the exploration of it was pointless? Sure, you got a valid point, but this isnt Realworld. This is still very boring, I mean, CCP always talks about their fiction and it realy suprizes me, that they are NOT able to make something were the fascination lasts more then a month. There is always just the interaction of players (like PVP) and no interaction from NPCs at all. That is why everything in this game gets boring after 1 or maybe 2 weeks of playing, it simply lacks the role playing part. good morning, in this unknown space, you should kill rats that give you T3 parts, they are technological way more advanced then the current races are. To just get in there and easily invade their space without any risk by the races that live there sounds more like a "broken fiction" then like a addon that should bring new fascination to this game.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:15:00 - [958] Originally by: Clansworth Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. Because everyone knows that large alliances use magic to get troops to a sieged system.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:21:00 - [959] Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 28/01/2009 11:17:23 Originally by: Clansworth Well, it is kind of the nature of the unknown, that it doesn't stay that for long. My view is that the point of exploration is not to see the unknown, but to turn the unknown into the known. Yes, this system has a lifetime. They have already hinted that there might be 'future advances' that would potentially allow manipulating the wormholes in some way, also the possibility of clone jump capability in the future. This is not an ever unexplored area, it is, in my eyes, the frontier. It will be pushed into until the unknown is the known, and can become the norm. The American west was once a vast 'inhospitable place'. It is certainly not that anymore. Does that mean the exploration of it was pointless? Sure, you got a valid point, but this isnt Realworld. This is still very boring, I mean, CCP always talks about their fiction and it realy suprizes me, that they are NOT able to make something were the fascination lasts more then a month. There is always just the interaction of players (like PVP) and no interaction from NPCs at all. That is why everything in this game gets boring after 1 or maybe 2 weeks of playing, it simply lacks the role playing part. good morning, in this unknown space, you should kill rats that give you T3 parts, they are technological way more advanced then the current races are. To just get in there and easily invade their space without any risk by the races that live there sounds more like a "broken fiction" then like a addon that should bring new fascination to this game. CCP has finaly come up with a nice idea that has so much potential and everything they make out of this idea is something that lasts for 1 month max is kinda meh. I think it you are looking to CCP for the storyline/fiction/content of eve, you are only seeing part of the game. A major part of the game, at least to me, is the player generated content. That being the political shifts, the market swings, the constatly shifting sands of tactical advantage. CCP just builds the sets, they don't write the story.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:27:00 - [960] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Red 7 What's the current thinking about the average number of wormholes that will be available at any point in time (found or yet to be discovered) from K-Space to W-Space? Somewhere a little less that 2500 probably? there are 2500 W-Space systems, most of which will have a K-Space link most of the time. Some will have none, but instead contain a W-W link, some will contain 2 k-space links, or a K and a W-W.. Still seems it will average out to around 2500... The more "lucrative" areas of W-Space will have rare links to K-Space. For the zone to be interesting I would imagine - what 10% would fit this bill? Which brings us down to 2250 systems. I can't imagine that all those W-Space systems will have W-K links. Otherwise it just ends up as a zone where pirates will hang out to gank anybody without needing to worry about tanking the guns. It would also mean that every other K-System would have a K-W WH.

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:30:00 - [961] Originally by: rubico1337 nothing inherently bad with POSs, im all for it if they are small and controlled by small corps that dont try to OWN the space, the challenge is letting there be POSes AND making sure any alliance cant lock down several systems. its a balancing act. No that's not a balancing act. That's mutualy exclusive conditions.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:30:00 - [962] Edited by: Clansworth on 28/01/2009 11:33:38 Originally by: Red 7 Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Red 7 What's the current thinking about the average number of wormholes that will be available at any point in time (found or yet to be discovered) from K-Space to W-Space? Somewhere a little less that 2500 probably? there are 2500 W-Space systems, most of which will have a K-Space link most of the time. Some will have none, but instead contain a W-W link, some will contain 2 k-space links, or a K and a W-W.. Still seems it will average out to around 2500... The more "lucrative" areas of W-Space will have rare links to K-Space. For the zone to be interesting I would imagine - what 10% would fit this bill? Which brings us down to 2250 systems. I can't imagine that all those W-Space systems will have W-K links. Otherwise it just ends up as a zone where pirates will hang out to gank anybody without needing to worry about tanking the guns. It would also mean that every other K-System would have a K-W WH. i realize that there will be some that have a tendacy towards NOT linking to K-Space. However, they also stated that it will not be an uncommon occurance for systems to have multiple links to K-Space, thus allowing links from one side of K-space to another. This is why i said it'd still probably tend towards 2500. EDIT: More importantly, Red 7, didn't you die? System Influence
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:36:00 - [963] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. Well, apart from the fact that cycling the wormholes will require you to have effective "air superiority" in the system for a long enough period to get groups of BS's to the new mouths and into the system, and apart from the fact that this will require characters (admittedly, alts, but they could be used for other things) to loaf around in the contested system for significant periods of time - possibly weeks - while the reinforcements are being brought in, there is the minor issue that the defenders will be able to bring in reinforcements in covops (even a tiny wormhole will do!) and jump into locally-manufactured dreadnaughts and carriers. So what will happen is that the owners of the POS's will put a dread or two on display in each POS, at which point any scout will report back, "By your command, Imperious Leader, we're frakked", and the system will remain unmolested. World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
Grigo M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:39:00 - [964] i have a question. wen you "jump" to a wormhole sistem will u be moved at the other location of the wormhole entery(just as gates) or randomly in the sistem(example clonejumpin to a rogural). also are wormholes 2 ways(if the mass/time permits) RO Originally by: Avernus ...some kudos to using your main to post like an asshat though... doesn't really take balls though, you're on the internet.
Koibito Caldari n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:41:00 - [965] thanks to ccp awesomeness and my fancy reading my meal went this awesome. xD
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:45:00 - [966] Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Exus Question : How will works the security status hits while killing rats in the belts in wormland ? No word yet on WHO the rats will be. If they are of the existing pirate factions (unlikely), then I would expect similar security status affects. If they are unknowns, with little/no CONCORD relations, I would expect little/no sec status effects. Who says the angels can't use wormholes?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.28 11:50:00 - [967] I really think it's a bad idea to be able to deploy POSs in w-space. If POS are able to be deployed, the end game will be massive POSs sitting on every high value target in all of w-space, regardless of how hard they are to maintain. I think that w-space should be an area of maximum fluidity that is impossible to 'settle', where the greatest permanence players can expect to have is a carrier or Orca/Rorqual for a home away from home. If POSs aren't allowed then it will be much harder for large alliances to exploit their numbers and erect hardened footholds in w-space. I think there will be a massive flood of scout alts as soon as the patch goes live, mapping as far into w-space as they can get on suicide runs in a mad dash to secure as many assets as possible. A lot of experimental exploration will be going on on SISI to get as much knowledge as possible about the w-space environment and it's workings before assaulting the real thing on TQ. Defenders in w-space will have a huge advantage. Pre-positioned ships and supplies will be a major benefit while attackers will have to slowly trickle resources and manpower into the systems. Attacking/defending systems that are even one level of depth greater than a k-w link (i.e. a system that is linked only by w-w links, with a k-w link to the next known space) will be an order of magnitude more difficult to attack/defend. With the links randomly generated, I'm really wondering how the systems will be layered with respect to how much 'true security' each system has, and how deep into w-space it is (number of consecutive w-w links you have to go through to find it). Will we end up with a list of tiered systems? Tier 1 meaning they're 'surface' w-space systems, with links commonly attached to known space, tier 2 w-space systems are commonly attached to tier 1 w-space systems and so on. Reaching a tier 5 system would mean having to penetrate randomly created links to five levels. I don't even want to think about the odds of being able to consistently navigate in/out of a system like that. You really could get infinitely lost for all intents and purposes. With only two accounts- six characters- a single person has plenty of resources to very effectively establish a permanent presence in w-space with a POS, alts left to watch it with very little SP, and plenty of scouts to poke around and see where all the new wormholes go. When you run the numbers out to their end conclusion w-space isn't as scary as it first appears. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:00:00 - [968] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. Aysmetrical. The defenders only have to get one or two ships in and out to sell and resupply. The attackers have to get how many BSes in to take out a POS? High sec WH won't have enough mass to move a capital so that means at most 4 BSes. Then your fleet is flying how many jumps to the next WH? How big is that one going to be? Also unless you have a cruiser, BC, and a BS as part of your crash team you run the risk of having a ship caught in K-space after the WH crash. The defenders can easilly keep 1 of each at the POS. tl;dr WH have limited mass. This effects attackers more than defenders since they need to move more mass than defenders.
Nig C	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:06:00 - [969] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I really think it's a bad idea to be able to deploy POSs in w-space. Why not, may yo wonder than, when the NPC's Cap Fleet arrive :)
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:06:00 - [970] Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 12:09:36 Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 12:07:27 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Defenders in w-space will have a huge advantage. Pre-positioned ships and supplies will be a major benefit while attackers will have to slowly trickle resources and manpower into the systems. Attacking/defending systems that are even one level of depth greater than a k-w link (i.e. a system that is linked only by w-w links, with a k-w link to the next known space) will be an order of magnitude more difficult to attack/defend. With the links randomly generated, I'm really wondering how the systems will be layered with respect to how much 'true security' each system has, and how deep into w-space it is (number of consecutive w-w links you have to go through to find it). Will we end up with a list of tiered systems? Tier 1 meaning they're 'surface' w-space systems, with links commonly attached to known space, tier 2 w-space systems are commonly attached to tier 1 w-space systems and so on. Reaching a tier 5 system would mean having to penetrate randomly created links to five levels. I don't even want to think about the odds of being able to consistently navigate in/out of a system like that. You really could get infinitely lost for all intents and purposes. This is the real crux of the issue - hence my question earlier. The shallower that W-Space is - then the more of an issue POS's will be. The deeper it is then the more interesting things become but the more needed POS's are. They've hinted that this will be a place to get lost in - which suggests that it will be deep - and also that a larger proportion of the space will have infrequent connections to K-Space. Would be nice if proportions were something like: Tier 5 - 10% of systems Tier 4 - 20% of systems Tier 3 - 30% of systems Tier 2 - 20% of systems Tier 1 - 20% of systems For Tier 1 (high frequency of W-Space to K-Space WH's) - 250 W-Space systems which would mean approx 1/10 systems in K-Space are connected excl multiple K-Space connections to the same W-Space system. But haven't they also said that the lower the sec of the K-System - the more lucrative the end-point in W-Space will be? If so this essentially means that existing 0.0 space and the alliances have richer pickings from the offing.

Kim Moore	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:20:00 - [971] Edited by: Kim Moore on 28/01/2009 12:30:36
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:28:00 - [972] Edited by: Ahro Thariori on 28/01/2009 12:34:17 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow So what will happen is that the owners of the POS's will put a dread or two on display in each POS, at which point any scout will report back, "By your command, Imperious Leader, we're frakked", and the system will remain unmolested. edit: numbers, numbers! Is this viable? How long stretches of 'peace' would you need to build up such defenses? Including mining for materials. Remember: you cant just do 10 freighter-runs to jita/whatever and back. ;)
Kaahles n0thing Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:41:00 - [973] Edited by: Kaahles on 28/01/2009 12:57:40 Originally by: Koibito thanks to ccp awesomeness and my fancy reading my meal went this awesome. xD mimimimimimi Bu seriously ccp. Great work the probably most awsome stuff i've ever read about. I espeacilly like the idea of the possibility to get stuck. Unexplored deep space is cold an dangerous (even more than 0.0) so YAY. Hope the details about the new scanning system will be equally awsome ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it!
Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:51:00 - [974] still no news about when it will hit SiSi.
Herio Mortis HYDRA MANUFACTURING Corp O X I D E	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:55:00 - [975] I think defending towers will be trickier than people think. Every defender that gets podded will end up in his clone back in K-space. If the last defender gets podded they won't have an easy time finding their way back to the same system. Sure, they can camp out inside the force field, but how are they then going to grab fuel? With the defenders camped inside the tower, the attackers can close the WH and no reinforcements will be easy to do for the defending force. Do they risk sneaking out to probe down a WH for backup risk having the last pilot in system podded? Will that WH even lead somewhere that makes reinforcement possible? So for me personally I don't think POS placement will be as big an issue as some people try to make it out to be.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:27:00 - [976] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 28/01/2009 13:28:27 Edited by: Space Wanderer on 28/01/2009 13:28:07 Originally by: Herio Mortis I think defending towers will be trickier than people think. Every defender that gets podded will end up in his clone back in K-space. If the last defender gets podded they won't have an easy time finding their way back to the same system. Not sure about that. The same drawbacks of defenders are applicable to attackers too. In other words, attack fleets will be cut off from their base as much as the defenders are. With the difference that the defenders are behind fortifications and lots of supplies, while attackers aren't. The condition would be the same of a sieged city where neither the siegers, nor the city can receive supplies; heavily slanted in favor of defenders. Of course there would be need for the defenders to keep a consistent fleet in the system at all times, but alts solve that problem...
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:33:00 - [977] Except that the attackers have open supply lines - whereas the defenders don't. With cynos forbidden - defenders can't drop in supplys on a whim.
Calarin Crushed Ambitions	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:39:00 - [978] Sorry if this has already been asked but I'm assuming that a 0.0 or lowsec wormhole that leads to a highsec system will automatically prevent all capitals except for jump freighters from entering. Just making sure, is this correct? Or does Chribba get more dreads to mine with? :P
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:39:00 - [979] Originally by: Herio Mortis I think defending towers will be trickier than people think. Every defender that gets podded will end up in his clone back in K-space. If the last defender gets podded they won't have an easy time finding their way back to the same system. Sure, they can camp out inside the force field, but how are they then going to grab fuel? With the defenders camped inside the tower, the attackers can close the WH and no reinforcements will be easy to do for the defending force. Do they risk sneaking out to probe down a WH for backup risk having the last pilot in system podded? Will that WH even lead somewhere that makes reinforcement possible? So for me personally I don't think POS placement will be as big an issue as some people try to make it out to be. I have to agree to that. It's not the risk of being forcefully removed that would make to pos game in there more interesting than in K-Space, but the possibility that you can be 'cut off' from your all shiny tower without any viable way to get back other than paying thru the nose to the ones locking you out to get your 'stuff out'. Let's say for example that corp A will find dyspo moon in there (or whatever others might want to take). They do the freighter run into there (well worth the risk one could assume, should they manage to sell later months worth of that material). So we will have now deathstar with small amount of moon mining and some corp hangars to keep the stuff. And 10 alts. In worst case all competent pos gunners and probers (ie not your regular out of box alts). They might have also, if they play with high bets a 6 months of pos fuel in there. Corp B finds the system and sinff the tower out in rapid order. They find that it has dysp (or whatever else they need) and now have three options (1) ignore it as 'not worth the hassle' (2) direct assault (needing at least 50 competent RR BS pilots against pos with gunners that has no defending fleet) (3) trying to 'starve them out' (needing local space superiority in system and good timezone coverage). None of the last 2 options is 'easy' but pos removal should not be 'easy' or people would do it 'just for lulz' especially if it would be easier to remove tower than to erect one. From those 3 last one is most viable. Or second one if they have the numbers assuming they are capable of moving anywhere in K-Space to get into system thru any wormhole leading to K-Space. If one of the 'defenders' sniffs out a wormhole all the 'attackers' have to do is to camp it with cloakers (assuming they manage to find it also) and then collapse it after the 'defender' goes thru to see where it leads (as the defenders would need that information to get supplies and pilots into system and valuable stuff out). Ofc defenders could try the same to the attackers, if they manage to move enough pilots into system the local space superiority will shift and the roles will be reversed. So POS in system might offer reason to actually fight (with high bets, as if you are podded you are of of there) instead of just cloaking up in SS and smacking in our belowed delayed local. It's the game of determination - do you have the will and commitment to outlast your opposition to actually 'control' the system ? Anything can be controlled with will and determination if you think the rewards are worth it. POS or no POS. Without POS the fight for 'system control' would turn into your regular alt-cloaking-in-SS kind of stuff and most of us know how fustrating that can be Ofc POS alone do not prevent that, but that POS is at least static target. You can disable the guns n stuff one by one while waiting for the local cloaker to uncloak or whatever. Assuming they do not have those 10 gunners online ofc.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:44:00 - [980] Originally by: Brutal Bruno still no news about when it will hit SiSi. I believe they mentioned sometime second half of february... Eve-search is for some reason 'down' right now, so I can't find the source post. Originally by: Calarin Sorry if this has already been asked but I'm assuming that a 0.0 or lowsec wormhole that leads to a highsec system will automatically prevent all capitals except for jump freighters from entering. Just making sure, is this correct? Or does Chribba get more dreads to mine with? :P Correct. W-K Wormholes that lead to highsec will have a cap on ship size making it impossible for capital ships to go through. System Influence

Green Aen	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:45:00 - [981] Originally by: Calarin Sorry if this has already been asked but I'm assuming that a 0.0 or lowsec wormhole that leads to a highsec system will automatically prevent all capitals except for jump freighters from entering. Just making sure, is this correct? Or does Chribba get more dreads to mine with? :P no they will make it like that capitals can't enter from empire, otherwhise u would see carriers there... mass allowed, u'll have to do it with orca.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:06:00 - [982] Hm, maybe we need a new kind of POS that can only be erected in a W-system. Could make balancing easier. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:09:00 - [983] Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 14:17:04 Originally by: Ahro Thariori Originally by: Zackalwe Deathstars in W-space. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. We are probably talking about 80say battleships to take a fully armed POS. Assuming 5 BS per wormhole jump. Assuming it takes an hour of messing about to get a WH spawn anywhere near your space. Assuming half an hour travel time to get the next 5 BS to the new WH. Some assumptions obviously, but not too far out probably. So far thats 20 consecutive hours just to get the whole fleet into the system. Probably more like 2 days when you take into account a reasonable timezone operation. Reinforce the POS. Whole fleet needs to alarmclock to take down the POS when its out of reinforced. Which could take another 2 days where the fleet has to stay logged out in that system and not able to do anything else in the meantime. Put up your own POS. Now get the entire fleet out again, preferably in your own space so the snipe fit BS dont get ganked flying back in small groups. Probably another 2 days. A 6 day OP to take down a single POS tying up 80 battleships for the entire duration? Chances are that aint gonna happen often. Especially as losses will be high, considering it will probably be manned at some point. And the fact that the vast majority of the time will be highly tedious waiting / travelling.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:17:00 - [984] Originally by: Zackalwe Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 14:13:23 Originally by: Ahro Thariori Originally by: Zackalwe Deathstars in W-space. With the currently planned mechanics as I understand them, I predict that within a month all the dyspro moons in all W systems will have deathstars on them. It will be a bit of a pain logistically, but a four or five man team with alts could set this up quite quickly. Closing the wormhole repeatedly until you get one close to your safe space will just make it easier. Once set up, the deathstar will be practically invincible even without gunners. No dread fleet can get to it, and battleship fleet size would be a problem. A critical mass of battleships probably isnt practical because of wormhole mechanics. Why is it, that in everyones thought process only the defenders can game the WH mechanics - and the attackers cant? You want a sizeable BS fleet in that WH space? Just rapidly cycle the Whs. We are probably talking about 80say battleships to take a fully armed POS. Assuming 5 BS per wormhole jump. Assuming it takes an hour of messing about to get a WH spawn anywhere near your space. Assuming half an hour travel time to get the next 5 BS to the new WH. Some assumptions obviously, but not too far out probably. So far thats 30 hours just to get the whole fleet into the system. Reinforce the POS. Whole fleet needs to alarmclock to take down the POS when its out of reinforced. Which could take another 2 days where the fleet has to stay logged out in that system and not able to do anything else in the meantime. Put up your own POS. Now get the entire fleet out again, preferably in your own space so the snipe fit BS dont get ganked flying back in small groups. Probably another 30 hours. A 5 day OP to take down a single POS tying up 80 battleships for the entire duration? Chances are that aint gonna happen often. Especially as losses will be high, considering it will probably be manned at some point. And the fact that the vast majority of the time will be highly tedious waiting / travelling. Maybe the npc's there dont like pos's in their systems and will attack them as its their territory as we need to keep in mind we dont know anything yet about those inhabitants except they will be surprisingly different then what we are used to from npc's !!!
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:20:00 - [985] Is it possible to see a screenshot of the new probing in action? I am dying to see what it looks like and if it corresponds to what I have in my head :)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:20:00 - [986] This is frontier space. How dare people have any ability to set up and base out of this new frontier! Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:25:00 - [987] Edited by: Red 7 on 28/01/2009 14:26:25 Originally by: Zackalwe We are probably talking about 80say battleships to take a fully armed POS. Assuming 5 BS per wormhole jump. Assuming it takes an hour of messing about to get a WH spawn anywhere near your space. Assuming half an hour travel time to get the next 5 BS to the new WH. Some assumptions obviously, but not too far out probably. So far thats 20 consecutive hours just to get the whole fleet into the system. Probably more like 2 days when you take into account a reasonable timezone operation. Reinforce the POS. Whole fleet needs to alarmclock to take down the POS when its out of reinforced. Which could take another 2 days where the fleet has to stay logged out in that system and not able to do anything else in the meantime. Put up your own POS. Now get the entire fleet out again, preferably in your own space so the snipe fit BS dont get ganked flying back in small groups. Probably another 2 days. A 6 day OP to take down a single POS tying up 80 battleships for the entire duration? Chances are that aint gonna happen often. Especially as losses will be high, considering it will probably be manned at some point. And the fact that the vast majority of the time will be highly tedious waiting / travelling. Your assumptions are a little off. If K-W space is as flat as some people suggest - then every other system (in K-Space) will be have a WH capable of reaching W-Space. 80 people in a 5 man team (5 BS per WH you mentioned) would be 16 teams. With around 1.5 hours needed based on your figures per team - then the rate of entry into the system would be defined by the number of systems you can cycle WH's in parrallel. If you can cover/control/work in 32 systems (assuming 2 systems per WH) then you can do it in 1.5 hours. Controlling safely 16 systems would take 3 hours, etc. Running sequentially wouldn't be optimal :) The harder part of course is the actual siege.
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:35:00 - [988] With 2500 systems available and Wormholes being random, its going to be days/weeks and lots of probing before you would find the system your POS is in! There are no gates between wormhole systems, you would have to find another wormhole to enter the next wormhole system. So attacking POS's would be practically impossible unless they were defenceless. There is a limit to the mass that can pass through a wormhole, if the limit was 5 battleships for the first wormhole, the limit for the next wormhole might be 2 battleships, then what! does the fleet split up! does a wormhole have to collapse before the next wormhole can be found! Every ship would need to be able to probe for wormholes as you cannot guarantee that all the ships will fit through the next wormhole found, the next wormhole may dump your battleships in the middle of Delve! who is going to take these risks with expensive ships!
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:36:00 - [989] Originally by: Red 7 Except that the attackers have open supply lines - whereas the defenders don't. With cynos forbidden - defenders can't drop in supplys on a whim. I think this point is the crux of the matter. Honestly I can't see why you make such a statement. Why do you say the attackers have an open supply line? As far as I can see the attackers have as the only supplies those they can bring through a single WH, before it collapses (assuming the defenders are not able to use covop ships to collapse it themself). On the contrary the defenders have all the supplies they have been able to sneak in periods of weeks or months.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:36:00 - [990] Originally by: An Anarchyyt This is frontier space. How dare people have any ability to set up and base out of this new frontier! I am not against the possibility of establishing bases in the new frontier per se, but I am speculating if it is such a good idea use a system that is balanced in regard to the attack/defense mechanism of k-space and directly implement them in w-space. Making a new Starbase tower with the same characteristics as a small Starbase tower, except it is the only tower that can be deployed in w-space, would be my first attempt at balancing. I would not fiddle with stats of other starbase structures only the tower. Maybe tune fuel consumption in someway too. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute

Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:43:00 - [991] I actually read the whole thread. I tolerated it by mentally replacing "wormhole" with "a$$hole". I was cackling like a madman at times. In short, I like what I'm hearing about Wormspace. Not so fond about hearing that with 6 weeks to go, CCP haven't finalized important factors here, but that's just how CCP rolls. Good luck in getting it done on time. When I heard about the new NPCs I was guessing it was the EoM (and how mad they were that someone finally found their home) but the new AI kinda shoots that down, considering that the EoM are the dumbest faction in EvE by lightyears. That leaves us with either the Enheduanni, or something completely new. Originally by: Jowen Datloran Hm, maybe we need a new kind of POS that can only be erected in a W-system. Could make balancing easier. I agree. current POS structures muck everything up. I think it's either this or... Quote: Summary: no permanent structures in W-space; new resources exploitable without use of permanent structures; possible later expansion of game mechanics. ...this. Quote: And, will WH ever end up giving access to Jovian space? It's the best game mechanic for the job so far. Pretty certain the Jove won't be happy about it though. That said, and knowing how things can end up in New Eden, if I come out of a wormhole and find myself in Polaris (due to a bug) will I at least get a round of high-fives from CCP staff before being podded into oblivion? Quote: As the person who created this set of probe coverage bookmarks, will any concession be given to those of us who spent many hours producing carefully-honed bookmark sets allowing thorough coverage of a system? Did Insta-makers get any concessions when Warp To Zero was introduced? I think you have your answer there. Quote: Quote: Give me the reasons why a "carebear" should enter this space at all. How does 2.72bil a week at current market prices sound A number pulled out of thin air, and assumes that there isn't anything else of value in Wormspace than Dyspro/Prom moons. Also assumes you have the resources and manpower to set up a moonsucking POS. Just about everything related to T3 will command high prices in the beginning, those prices may actually exceed "2.72bil a week" to begin with. And that doesn't even cover the sheer thrill of the adventure of Wormspace. Strange Adventures In (In)finite (Worm)space indeed. I'll be giving this a shot for sure. Quote: Quote: ...***ble... * is a bad word? It's Swedish for female genitalia. Someone at CCP has a dirty mind in multiple languages. Also, "f.i.t.t.able" is not a real word. Originally by:** CCP Whisper In fact one of my biggest challenges will be stopping PrismX from adding ten thousand systems now that he's gotten a taste of being a deity in creative mood. Personal request for PrismX: The next time you roll up some systems with actual names, could you name one of them Quirkafleeg? We need more systems beginning with "Q".
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:45:00 - [992] If the pos would burn the fuel at a much higher rate so that you cannot fuel them for 3+ weeks in advance then things would be less in favour of the defenders and the attackers will have a better chance. It is CCP's decision if they want some easier defence or some easier attack. Balancing (especially something completely new like this) is always very difficult and there will be ALWAYS people unhappy with it.
Aleia Destrava Minmatar O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:46:00 - [993] Edited by: Aleia Destrava on 28/01/2009 14:56:22 As has been pointed out, the "deeper" W-space is (with the best rewards being in the deepest w-space systems) the less likely it will be that you can actually maintain a pos in those deepest systems. In systems that actually form wormholes to K-Space the logistics, while annoying and time-consuming, are (as has been repeatedly pointed out) feasible and just a matter of persisting long enough. However if indeed there are W-space systems that will only connect to other W-Space systems and there is a certain layered structure to this (see Red 7's post with the tiers) then finding the logistical way in to your pos will become from merely annoying to virtually impossible. Not only are the layers multiplying the effort itself of finding the right wormholes, they add two new aspects. 1. How to determine if you're actually closer to K-Space, and as such a step in the right direction? Maybe through careful mapping with bookmarks and empirical study this may be determined but certainly in the beginning months will complicate matters considerably. 2. Not only do you need to find the right gates. To be able to resupply your pos you will need to have a chain of wormholes from the W-Space system with your pos to K-space that are open at the same time. Since these wormholes need to be found (which takes time as well) when you go through the first wormhole away from your pos you will have to start looking for another (if the indication of wormholes is going to be like it is now with multispectral probes and doesn't specify number) not knowing if there even is another wormhole out of the system. How long do you keep looking before giving up, collapsing the wormhole you came through and try for a new one from your pos-system? Now imagine having to do that over 4 tiers and then find a good exit point before any wormhole in your route collapses due to time-expiration. I think for those deepest systems throwaway poses are much more likely as the way to go. Go in with an expedition with a pos and fuel, in a deep system set up the pos, let it run till the fuel runs out...go home with the spoils.
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:47:00 - [994] Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 14:51:20 Originally by: Red 7 Your assumptions are a little off. If K-W space is as flat as some people suggest - then every other system (in K-Space) will be have a WH capable of reaching W-Space. 80 people in a 5 man team (5 BS per WH you mentioned) would be 16 teams. With around 1.5 hours needed based on your figures per team - then the rate of entry into the system would be defined by the number of systems you can cycle WH's in parrallel. If you can cover/control/work in 32 systems (assuming 2 systems per WH) then you can do it in 1.5 hours. Controlling safely 16 systems would take 3 hours, etc. Running sequentially wouldn't be optimal :) The harder part of course is the actual siege. No my assumptions were based on assaulting an enemy deathstar in W-space. Not for controlling a system that you already have a POS down in. For assaulting a deathstar you need all pilots in the one system. I agree it is a lot easier for an alliance to control and place a POS in W-space if there is no-one else there.
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 14:58:00 - [995] CCP...a couple of questions: How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? In wormhole space, if the next wormhole found is to restrictive to let your gang of ships through, can you keep scanning for wormholes, until one matches the mass of your ships? or does the open wormhole have to collapse before any new wormholes can be discovered?
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:04:00 - [996] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 13:39:23 On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are. I personally find this to be a naive or intentionally misleading comment. This seems just like another 0.0 big corps loving type expansion which will leave nothing for the average pilot to do. There is no reward for the hi sec pilot, just more of the same ganking and territorial gameplay which makes everyone avoid nul sec in the first place. And I am getting personally tired of this line of "expansion" by CCP. I'm not saying concord, but what about non-use of weapons due to certain factors at certain times........radom and indeterminate to at least bring some chance of balance so that this is not the usual (on a mini scale) 500 ship gank fest.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:09:00 - [997] Originally by: Khanto Thor CCP...a couple of questions: How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? In wormhole space, if the next wormhole found is to restrictive to let your gang of ships through, can you keep scanning for wormholes, until one matches the mass of your ships? or does the open wormhole have to collapse before any new wormholes can be discovered? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. P.S. You got an expansion that starts with a Q! Now you want systems as well! ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:11:00 - [998] Originally by: Li SanCei Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 13:39:23 On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are. I personally find this to be a naive or intentionally misleading comment. This seems just like another 0.0 big corps loving type expansion which will leave nothing for the average pilot to do. There is no reward for the hi sec pilot, just more of the same ganking and territorial gameplay which makes everyone avoid nul sec in the first place. And I am getting personally tired of this line of "expansion" by CCP. I'm not saying concord, but what about non-use of weapons due to certain factors at certain times........radom and indeterminate to at least bring some chance of balance so that this is not the usual (on a mini scale) 500 ship gank fest. ....I don't see what's wrong with that, this is unexplored space! its lawless, no concord. Like the wild-west, riches can be made but there are great risks, people did not just head out into unexplored territory without protecting themselves!
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:14:00 - [999] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor CCP...a couple of questions: How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? In wormhole space, if the next wormhole found is to restrictive to let your gang of ships through, can you keep scanning for wormholes, until one matches the mass of your ships? or does the open wormhole have to collapse before any new wormholes can be discovered? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. P.S. You got an expansion that starts with a Q! Now you want systems as well! nice! ...so basically if you go deeper into wormhole space, you may be stuck there for some time!
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:15:00 - [1000] Originally by: Li SanCei Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 13:39:23 On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are. I personally find this to be a naive or intentionally misleading comment. This seems just like another 0.0 big corps loving type expansion which will leave nothing for the average pilot to do. There is no reward for the hi sec pilot, just more of the same ganking and territorial gameplay which makes everyone avoid nul sec in the first place. And I am getting personally tired of this line of "expansion" by CCP. I'm not saying concord, but what about non-use of weapons due to certain factors at certain times........radom and indeterminate to at least bring some chance of balance so that this is not the usual (on a mini scale) 500 ship gank fest. I dont think you understand the mechanics fully tbh. You arent going to get alliance fleets in the hundreds suddenly appearing in your high-sec linked wormhole space, while on their way to a staging area or something. With nothing else to do than gank your drake. Is that really what you are worried about? Or are you saying you want to be able to solo mine in these high-sec wormhole systems with impunity? Im struggling to understand what your concerns are, maybe the easiest way is to give me an real example that you are concerned about.

Ralle030583 Gallente Eve Service Corp	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:16:00 - [1001] Edited by: Ralle030583 on 28/01/2009 15:19:02 Edited by: Ralle030583 on 28/01/2009 15:17:02 Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Wormhole Space, Ghetto Sov. 1) Your corp locates a suitable wormhole system. A suitable wormhole system has, at a minimum, an ice belt and some method of getting minerals, as well as a wormhole that can admit your Rorqual in step 2. 2) You load up a Rorqual with the following: * 6 clones of people with strong mining and combat skills, as well as one good manufacturer * Some macks / hulks / haulers * A good selection of T1 BPOs A large tower A corp hanger A ship maint. array A refining array A large ship assembly array A medium ship assembly array A small ship assembly array An ammunition assembly array A drone assembly array An equipment assembly array By my calculations all those POS parts use up 84,750m3 of space, which leaves a little over 50K for fuel and equipment. 3) You take your Rorqual into the system (as CCP has already said caps can use wormholes). Bring in additional supplies via industrial ships (whose pilots are NOT cloned on the Rorqual) until the wormhole collapses. 4) Set up your POS 5) Clone jump your pilots in 6) Start mining fuel, minerals, and building up your fleet. Your explorer pilot looks for wormholes going back to Empire while this is going on. 7) When your explorer finds a suitable wormhole, bring out more of your forces. And some POS guns. Continue doing this until you're moved out completely. 8) You now own a wormhole system. Feel free to gank any exploring noobs mercilessly :P. Use medical clones and your Rorqual's clone bay to get pods in and out of Empire easily. Move T3 materials and surplus minerals when suitable wormholes to empire are available. you know that you need also nice amount of npc goods to run it? ;-) so no new wormwohle to empire for toooo long time = pos offline :-P but still rlly like the idea of an wormwhole system home :) high risk and i hope also high reward for that risk /Edit: oO Post 1000 is MINE
Geezelbub	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:21:00 - [1002] lol 34 pages and this just dawned on me....... CCP keeps saying that some of the NPC's are bad mutha's..... Maybe some/all of the NPC's have T3 ships! I mean there is a reason that we are gonna be finding T3 components, methods, BP's or whatever. Maybe the bad guys already have em!
Grigo M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:23:00 - [1003] Originally by: Ralle030583 Edited by: Ralle030583 on 28/01/2009 15:19:02 Edited by: Ralle030583 on 28/01/2009 15:17:02 Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Wormhole Space, Ghetto Sov. 1) Your corp locates a suitable wormhole system. A suitable wormhole system has, at a minimum, an ice belt and some method of getting minerals, as well as a wormhole that can admit your Rorqual in step 2. 2) You load up a Rorqual with the following: * 6 clones of people with strong mining and combat skills, as well as one good manufacturer * Some macks / hulks / haulers * A good selection of T1 BPOs A large tower A corp hanger A ship maint. array A refining array A large ship assembly array A medium ship assembly array A small ship assembly array An ammunition assembly array A drone assembly array An equipment assembly array By my calculations all those POS parts use up 84,750m3 of space, which leaves a little over 50K for fuel and equipment. 3) You take your Rorqual into the system (as CCP has already said caps can use wormholes). Bring in additional supplies via industrial ships (whose pilots are NOT cloned on the Rorqual) until the wormhole collapses. 4) Set up your POS 5) Clone jump your pilots in 6) Start mining fuel, minerals, and building up your fleet. Your explorer pilot looks for wormholes going back to Empire while this is going on. 7) When your explorer finds a suitable wormhole, bring out more of your forces. And some POS guns. Continue doing this until you're moved out completely. 8) You now own a wormhole system. Feel free to gank any exploring noobs mercilessly :P. Use medical clones and your Rorqual's clone bay to get pods in and out of Empire easily. Move T3 materials and surplus minerals when suitable wormholes to empire are available. you know that you need also nice amount of npc goods to run it? ;-) so no new wormwohle to empire for toooo long time = pos offline :-P but still rlly like the idea of an wormwhole system home :) high risk and i hope also high reward for that risk /Edit: oO Post 1000 is MINE clone jumping to a w-sistem is not posible...but anyway we will see some of these "homes" im sure about it.... RO Originally by: Avernus ...some kudos to using your main to post like an asshat though... doesn't really take balls though, you're on the internet.
Li SanCei	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:27:00 - [1004] And perhaps I wasn't clear enought above, but I'll get it off my chest. The psychology is: this....or that space is dangerous, join our corps and we will protect you and show you the ropes, meanwhile we own you: you mine this or that, do this or that, anything beyond what we say, which is only for your benefit, is just not being a "team player." If I want to be "owned" I think I'd rather "own" myself, which is not the direction you are taking this game into. Independence seems to be a concept lacking in your conceptualizing.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:28:00 - [1005] Originally by: Aleia Destrava 1. How to determine if you're actually closer to K-Space, and as such a step in the right direction? Maybe through careful mapping with bookmarks and empirical study this may be determined but certainly in the beginning months will complicate matters considerably. Impossible. WHs are random.
malcotch Gallente DEATHFUNK Doctrine.	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:37:00 - [1006] Originally by: Li SanCei And perhaps I wasn't clear enought above, but I'll get it off my chest. The psychology is: this....or that space is dangerous, join our corps and we will protect you and show you the ropes, meanwhile we own you: you mine this or that, do this or that, anything beyond what we say, which is only for your benefit, is just not being a "team player." If I want to be "owned" I think I'd rather "own" myself, which is not the direction you are taking this game into. Independence seems to be a concept lacking in your conceptualizing. reading some of the answers from CCP, I think you will be fairly safe and get that experience of exploring and being on your own. With a finite amount of wormholes being available at anytime spread over 2500 systems, you could remain undiscovered in your WH space. Just take a cloak with you, but from the nature of the spawning of WHs and the mechanics you are unlikely to be coming across large gangs of ships roaming around. .
Una D Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:42:00 - [1007] Originally by: Li SanCei And perhaps I wasn't clear enought above, but I'll get it off my chest. The psychology is: this....or that space is dangerous, join our corps and we will protect you and show you the ropes, meanwhile we own you: you mine this or that, do this or that, anything beyond what we say, which is only for your benefit, is just not being a "team player." If I want to be "owned" I think I'd rather "own" myself, which is not the direction you are taking this game into. Independence seems to be a concept lacking in your conceptualizing. Might I suggest playing X3 or something than? EVE is multiplayer thingie. You can do a lot alone but expecting that you should be able to do everything in the game alone is a bit over the top. Cooperation is what's it all about. And I doubt that most corporations are slave driving structures.
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:42:00 - [1008] Originally by: CCP Prism X It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. I find in a lot of MMOs the devs consistently underestimate the resourcefulness and determination of some of their playerbase. If it turns out that deathstars do end up on the majority of good moons, will you then agree that allowing this was a mistake and make changes to the mechanics? And btw I am in a big "Alliance claiming everything with POSs" type of alliance so Im not saying this out of bias, its just the way I see this going. Maybe if I give you an example you could tell me the reason this wont happen: Me and 4 alliance mates find a good moon in a W-system off of our space. We go through with an orca and HAC gang, and put up the tower with some defences and enough fuel to last a week. The wormhole we used closes. We keep scanning the system for new wormholes, and closing the useless ones until eventually we find another wormhole that leads to our half of the map somewhere. (we have a week to do this before our POS offlines) We then ship out the moon mins and ship in more POS guns and enough fuel to last 2 months. We can then leave the moon for a month at least before even having to worry about finding another exit. The POS has enough defense now that it cant be taken by anything short of a 50-100man fleet. It sits there making mins with a single alt fueling it every now and then. And is practically invincable as dreads and 50 man fleets arent seen in W-space. From now on every month or so we have to find another route back to K-space to ship mins back and re-supply it with fuel and more guns. Should be doable, surely at least once in a while our system will link back to K-space somewhere. So we now have a promethium or dysprosium moon defended by a deathstar and owned by 5 guys. Very lucrative to say the least. We could even get a second or third moon set up in new systems, after all we only need one scanner alt in each system to find a way back to K-space eventually. How is the above example not viable?
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:45:00 - [1009] Edited by: Miss President on 28/01/2009 15:45:47 ZOMG!!!! Warping scan probes is to an explorer as a warping asteroid is to a miner.Ö ZOMG! Probes Warp!Ö Ok, kidding aside. Will that ruin the exploration profession because it will become way too easy and everyone will be doing it??? Doing work and getting reward is part of exploration, such as warping and placing probes. Now, imagine miners could self warp chunks of asteroid belts to themselves??? Plus the new miners modules could have multiple uses, PVP and mine at the same time and have lower CPU requirements?? and low skilled players could mine marginally less than high skilled players. <-- This is basically how specialized explorer view this change, compared how a miner would feel it the above took place. CCP, you really need to draw a line and think of a good way where the above situation doesn't take place. Thank you for bringing all the great new content to the game I must say you're doing GREAT and I am excited!!!, but please do take necessary steps not to ruin the game play for specialized characters. A few thoughts below: Option: have a separate wormhole launcher with low CPU fitting requirements, that everyone will fit!!! Extreme option : Have and keep the original idea an Exploration launcher, that can do both, regular or wormhole exploration, but increase CPU requirements and give covops ships bonus to the CPU usage. Same as covops cloaks on recons bonuses with covops cloaks. This may get a lot of people complain who scan in other ships other the once with Astrometrics bonuses, but the outcome should/could be better. Option: have the regular exploration (not wormhole) scan probes be warpable only if you're in a covops frigate.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:47:00 - [1010] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/01/2009 15:56:43 Originally by: CCP Prism X With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. P.S. You got an expansion that starts with a Q! Now you want systems as well! Now....since you like me so much... Is there any chance you can mention what kind of systems will be mandated to have at least one wormhole open? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:48:00 - [1011] Been thinking a lot about this over the last couple days. All of this is with the info we've been given up to this point. Permanent POSes will happen. 3 accounts and you can do it. More makes it easier. 2 is doable but very risky. It will be boring and time intensive but not hard as long as you plan and bring the right supplies. Especially with the smaller POSes. For the right moon it would be well well worth it. We will see alliance colonizing systems. We will also see small corps doing it. We will not see colonization of large areas. There really aren't large areas. Especially if there are moon minerals in the traditional manner. The high end ones are just too ******* lucrative. I don't ever see POSes becoming common though. Great feature on the whole CCP. The single best addition to the game. The random pathing aspect of WHs is a great equalizer. W-space is the only viable blob killer proposed so far. If you make it delayed local. If the rumors about warping rats and the need to fit a point are true. If that's the case it's going to be a great no blob cat and mouse PvP area. With T3 as loot. Please post those dev blogs CCP. Until then.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:51:00 - [1012] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Is there any change you can mention what kind of systems will be mandated to have at least one wormhole open? I don't understand CCP's odd phrasing. Anyways this has already been covered in this thread. K-space systems may have a WH. W-space systems must have a WH.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:55:00 - [1013] Originally by: Zackalwe ...stuf... How is the above example not viable? If it is true that this space is terran space and if it is also true (if you remember the background stories) that a single volley of a terran weapon destroyed a whole fleet of dreads (the elders fleet) because the effect was such that the shield of the ships reversed their effect - instead of protecting they crushed the ships - it is easy to imagine that this new wormhole space could have some nasty properties. Properties which won't affect you much if you are there for a short time but will become annoying and dangerous if you stay longer. I can imagine for example that a pos would need constant repping. The larger the pos and the shields, the more repping it would need. Have fun with repping constantly dozens of pos scattered all over wormhole space Now, I don't say that this will happen. But I say that this is some reasonable scenario based on the background story and the info the devs gave so far.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.28 15:58:00 - [1014] Edited by: Xailia on 28/01/2009 15:59:01 Originally by: War Fairy ...Anyways this has already been covered in this thread. K-space systems may have a WH. W-space systems must have a WH. From what Prism X just said: Most W-systems can have 0-n wormholes active. Some W-systems have 1-n wormholes active. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:01:00 - [1015] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: An Anarchyyt Is there any change you can mention what kind of systems will be mandated to have at least one wormhole open? I don't understand CCP's odd phrasing. Anyways this has already been covered in this thread. K-space systems may have a WH. W-space systems must have a WH. I think what they basically mean is that certain WH systems are entry systems into wormhole space, these systems will always have a wormhole open back to empire, it just has to be found. As there is only a certain amount of wormholes available at anytime spread over 2500 systems, some WH systems might not have any wormholes available at that time, and other WH sytems can have more than one wormhole or lots!, this will always be changing due to the randomness and wormholes collapsing. But you could have a situation where if you stay to long in your wormhole system and the wormhole collapses you may not find another one for quite some time!
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:05:00 - [1016] Originally by: Zackalwe Originally by: CCP Prism X It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. I find in a lot of MMOs the devs consistently underestimate the resourcefulness and determination of some of their playerbase. If it turns out that deathstars do end up on the majority of good moons, will you then agree that allowing this was a mistake and make changes to the mechanics? And btw I am in a big "Alliance claiming everything with POSs" type of alliance so Im not saying this out of bias, its just the way I see this going. Maybe if I give you an example you could tell me the reason this wont happen: Me and 4 alliance mates find a good moon in a W-system off of our space. We go through with an orca and HAC gang, and put up the tower with some defences and enough fuel to last a week. The wormhole we used closes. We keep scanning the system for new wormholes, and closing the useless ones until eventually we find another wormhole that leads to our half of the map somewhere. (we have a week to do this before our POS offlines) We then ship out the moon mins and ship in more POS guns and enough fuel to last 2 months. We can then leave the moon for a month at least before even having to worry about finding another exit. The POS has enough defense now that it cant be taken by anything short of a 50-100man fleet. It sits there making mins with a single alt fueling it every now and then. And is practically invincable as dreads and 50 man fleets arent seen in W-space. From now on every month or so we have to find another route back to K-space to ship mins back and re-supply it with fuel and more guns. Should be doable, surely at least once in a while our system will link back to K-space somewhere. So we now have a promethium or dysprosium moon defended by a deathstar and owned by 5 guys. Very lucrative to say the least. We could even get a second or third moon set up in new systems, after all we only need one scanner alt in each system to find a way back to K-space eventually. How is the above example not viable? I imagine you could do this, but because there is 2500 systems which the wormhole you found could go to, it may take a very long time before you finally find a wormhole back to your POS. How many scans would that take?, it probably would not be worth the time and effort and you could make more isk ratting!
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:17:00 - [1017] Edited by: War Fairy on 28/01/2009 16:20:34 sigh I'm not going to go back and find it. I'll just clarify. This is the simplest I can summarize it. K-space systems may have a WH. K-space WHs lead only to W-space. W-space systems must have a WH. W-space WHs lead to either W-space or K-space.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:21:00 - [1018] Originally by: War Fairy sigh I'm not going to go back and find it. I'll just clarify. K-space systems may have a WH. K-space WHs only lead to W-space. W-space systems must have a WH. W-space WHs can lead to either W-space or K-space. Yes, and then he said something that goes against that. And as well it was mentioned that K-K wormholes are possible too. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:22:00 - [1019] Edited by: Bonny Lee on 28/01/2009 16:22:15 I have some questions: Will this wormholes spawn only after downtime or will they spawn well distributed over the whole onlinetime of the server. I ask this because i am living in fade atm and you have almost no chance to find an exploration-site or even a cosmic anomaly after 20:00 Evetime. If you start scanning after downtime you find them a lot more often. Perhaps you could solve this problem for wormholes and apply the solution to the anomaly- and explorationsites too. According to this problem: Are you doing anything for anomalys and exploration in this new expansion. Can you eventually let at least anomalys spawn more often in 0.0 so we dont have to search for them for hours only finding some crappy cruisers with less bounty then belt rats? You want us to live in 0.0 but you give the empire a "press the button to spawn good rats"-ability while we have to look and explore and have to invest a lot more time for often crappy sites (im talking about anomaly not exploration). I like to do them but they dont spawn enough if a 0.0 region is a little bit more populated then the space of the huge alliances with lots of empty systems. For exampel 3 of 4 common Serpentis anomalys in Fade (Hub, Port, Rally Point) dont have more bounty then a bad lvl3 Mission with only one common site (Serpentis haven) coming close to lvl4 mission rewards. And you also need to search for them 1hour and more during the peek-time. I know this is not really related to the problem but perhaps a dev reads it.
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:22:00 - [1020] Originally by: Red 7 Except that the attackers have open supply lines - whereas the defenders don't. With cynos forbidden - defenders can't drop in supplys on a whim. What on earth are you talking about? The defender totally has the advantage. I have 4-5 POS's in system with supply's and ships ready to go. Even if there is 5 defenders and 10 attackers if the defenders suicide large ships into the attackers and even LOSE the fight if they blow up say 2 out of the 10 attackers but lose 4 ships... as long as they don't get poded they can just go get more ships and stage another attack. The attacking force then has 2 people in pods that can't do anything. The defenders don't even have to pod them. The only thing a defending group has to do is make sure they move in or make locally a huge fleet of disposable ships like BC's. Ods are any attacking force will be in cruisers and BC's because of the limits on mass coming in etc. That totally gives the defender the advantage.

Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:24:00 - [1021] Originally by: Zackalwe Originally by: CCP Prism X It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. I find in a lot of MMOs the devs consistently underestimate the resourcefulness and determination of some of their playerbase. If it turns out that deathstars do end up on the majority of good moons, will you then agree that allowing this was a mistake and make changes to the mechanics? And btw I am in a big "Alliance claiming everything with POSs" type of alliance so Im not saying this out of bias, its just the way I see this going. Maybe if I give you an example you could tell me the reason this wont happen: Me and 4 alliance mates find a good moon in a W-system off of our space. We go through with an orca and HAC gang, and put up the tower with some defences and enough fuel to last a week. The wormhole we used closes. We keep scanning the system for new wormholes, and closing the useless ones until eventually we find another wormhole that leads to our half of the map somewhere. (we have a week to do this before our POS offlines) We then ship out the moon mins and ship in more POS guns and enough fuel to last 2 months. We can then leave the moon for a month at least before even having to worry about finding another exit. The POS has enough defense now that it cant be taken by anything short of a 50-100man fleet. It sits there making mins with a single alt fueling it every now and then. And is practically invincable as dreads and 50 man fleets arent seen in W-space. From now on every month or so we have to find another route back to K-space to ship mins back and re-supply it with fuel and more guns. Should be doable, surely at least once in a while our system will link back to K-space somewhere. So we now have a promethium or dysprosium moon defended by a deathstar and owned by 5 guys. Very lucrative to say the least. We could even get a second or third moon set up in new systems, after all we only need one scanner alt in each system to find a way back to K-space eventually. How is the above example not viable? It's viable, and it's exactly the scenario that should be avoided. FYI if you can bring an Orca through, its better to put in POS mods, stock up on fuel and build everything else locally. Provided you have the blueprints, a prolonged stay makes bringing Ammo, Module, Drone and Ship arrays more efficient for your mass. I also calculated last night that 1 Orca and a couple newbs with indies going through would have 325,000-350,000m3 of cargo. On a small tower that's 9.88 months. The funny thing is, even with 1-way travel where anyone leaving can't find their way back - YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED BY FUEL. You are in fact restricted by the amount of cargo you can carry on your way out, or the cargo-per-person. In my above example, you might be able to last for 10 months but you'll run out of space for Dyspro in less than 5. The solution is one of manpower, and if my 10 man corp can stay for half a year, imagine where metagaming gets you? Train up industrials on the 2 other characters on your account or bring more alts, or produce Orcas locally. I respect CCP PrismX's opinion, but he has little idea what kind of lengths most people will actually go to if they're excited by the challenge. I think my corp and I have spent the last two days talking about it, and even with 1-way travel we plan on doing a 6 month expedition. The most dangerous and challenging part would be getting podded by players, not something related to this new system. I actually feel bad that we could hold a moon for a year if we wanted, simply by deploying a tower there.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:24:00 - [1022] Originally by: Khanto Thor I imagine you could do this, but because there is 2500 systems which the wormhole you found could go to, it may take a very long time before you finally find a wormhole back to your POS. How many scans would that take?, it probably would not be worth the time and effort and you could make more isk ratting! You're doing it wrong. You scan from W-space. If the W-K goes to high sec or low sec you're good. Doesn't need to be anywhere specific that way.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:27:00 - [1023] Edited by: War Fairy on 28/01/2009 16:27:51 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: War Fairy sigh I'm not going to go back and find it. I'll just clarify. K-space systems may have a WH. K-space WHs only lead to W-space. W-space systems must have a WH. W-space WHs can lead to either W-space or K-space. Yes, and then he said something that goes against that. And as well it was mentioned that K-K wormholes are possible too. I think what was said was K-W-K pathing or that the tech could handle K-K WHs but they weren't in the design at this time. I'll have to check that when I have time. What did Prism say to contradict? Edit: I just reread his post and I don't see what contradicts mine. Can you share please?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:31:00 - [1024] Originally by: War Fairy Edited by: War Fairy on 28/01/2009 16:27:51 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: War Fairy sigh I'm not going to go back and find it. I'll just clarify. K-space systems may have a WH. K-space WHs only lead to W-space. W-space systems must have a WH. W-space WHs can lead to either W-space or K-space. Yes, and then he said something that goes against that. And as well it was mentioned that K-K wormholes are possible too. I think what was said was K-W-K pathing or that the tech could handle K-K WHs but they weren't in the design at this time. I'll have to check that when I have time. What did Prism say to contradict? Edit: I just reread his post and I don't see what contradicts mine. Can you share please? That there is no guarantee that W-space MUST have this connection. The K-K thing is in the middle of the thread somewhere if I can find it.
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:31:00 - [1025] Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 16:32:37 Originally by: Khanto Thor I imagine you could do this, but because there is 2500 systems which the wormhole you found could go to, it may take a very long time before you finally find a wormhole back to your POS. How many scans would that take?, it probably would not be worth the time and effort and you could make more isk ratting! No using the system I outlined you would always be with your POS. The only variable is when it allows a route back to K-space. Which presumably it must do sometime. Even if its a route to K-space through another W-space, its still doable and not very time intensive. You can rat all you like in the system while waiting for a route to K-space to open up. You can go fight with your alliance on your main while waiting, whatever. Its a challenge but doable. Its a chance to have a personal dyspro moon. And its an invulnerable asset because deathstars in W-space will be OP. The worst thing is the first people to do this are the only ones that will ever profit from it. Put it this way, the return from this venture will easily pay for the cost of running the alt account necessary to tend the POS. And then some.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:32:00 - [1026] Originally by: Zackalwe Originally by: CCP Prism X It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. I find in a lot of MMOs the devs consistently underestimate the resourcefulness and determination of some of their playerbase. If it turns out that deathstars do end up on the majority of good moons, will you then agree that allowing this was a mistake and make changes to the mechanics? You're reading something between the lines, that isn't there at all. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in what posts I was referring to but personalizing comments like that hasn't worked very well for me in the past. Let me rephrase that for you: It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. However, as we now know, we did always intend to allow industrious people to set up shop in wormhole space. Otherwise there is nothing stopping us from making a flat out ban on POSs in WHS. To answer your example, I see nothing wrong with that. That was not what I was referring to at all. My point is that you are perhaps underestimating the effort involved on a larger scale and I am indeed looking forward to see whom is under-estimating whom in that regard. But my comment had absolutely nothing to do with huge alliances being unable to ''claim'' a single system. On a personal note: I'm a player as well man. I've been an MMO player for much longer than I've been an MMO developer. And I'd have to have been playing some.. apocryphal.. MMOs to think that devs will always out-think players. I would also have to have zero programming experience.

Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:37:00 - [1027] Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 16:44:44 Originally by: CCP Prism X You're reading something between the lines, that isn't there at all. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in what posts I was referring to but personalizing comments like that hasn't worked very well for me in the past. Let me rephrase that for you: It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. However, as we now know, we did always intend to allow industrious people to set up shop in wormhole space. Otherwise there is nothing stopping us from making a flat out ban on POSs in WHS. To answer your example, I see nothing wrong with that. That was not what I was referring to at all. My point is that you are perhaps underestimating the effort involved on a larger scale and I am indeed looking forward to see whom is under-estimating whom in that regard. But my comment had absolutely nothing to do with huge alliances being unable to ''claim'' a single system. On a personal note: I'm a player as well man. I've been an MMO player for much longer than I've been an MMO developer. And I'd have to have been playing some.. apocryphal.. MMOs to think that devs will always out-think players. I would also have to have zero programming experience. I see where you are coming from, and please dont take my posts as disrespect. I like the idea of the wormhole system. The problem is this: I DONT see this as requiring alliances to do, it can easily be done with one guy and 4 accounts if he is on the ball. And thats fine, smart play should yield reward. The real problem is the fact that a deathstar will be totally invincible in W-space. If the guy running it is smart and runs it correctly, he will have a personal moon pumping out isk with no risk of losing it. And he could keep it forever. Following this line of reasoning... The only problem I have with this is they will be invincible Isk-making assets that only the select few (the early explorers) will have. Basically it seems like the BPO lottery all over again.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:39:00 - [1028] I think this is a great opportunity to break the current monopoly on moons that large alliances have, in much the same way invention somewhat broke the oligopoly of T2 manufacturing. Small corps of dedicated people instead of huge alliance projects. This kind of exploration is ripe for that. I still think there's going to be more catches than just the logistics of fuel and product movement. I'd not put it past CCP to have NPC dreadnoughts attacking POSes. Like, say, getting in your corp mailbox "Your station's sensors detect faint pulses hinting of an attack, analysis indicates they will arrive on x:xx mm/dd/yyyy" or something like that.
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:43:00 - [1029] Edited by: Khanto Thor on 28/01/2009 16:48:44 Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Khanto Thor I imagine you could do this, but because there is 2500 systems which the wormhole you found could go to, it may take a very long time before you finally find a wormhole back to your POS. How many scans would that take?, it probably would not be worth the time and effort and you could make more isk ratting! You're doing it wrong. You scan from W-space. If the W-K goes to high sec or low sec you're good. Doesn't need to be anywhere specific that way. Originally by: Zackalwe Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 16:32:37 Originally by: Khanto Thor I imagine you could do this, but because there is 2500 systems which the wormhole you found could go to, it may take a very long time before you finally find a wormhole back to your POS. How many scans would that take?, it probably would not be worth the time and effort and you could make more isk ratting! No using the system I outlined you would always be with your POS. The only variable is when it allows a route back to K-space. Which presumably it must do sometime. Even if its a route to K-space through another W-space, its still doable and not very time intensive. You can rat all you like in the system while waiting for a route to K-space to open up. You can go fight with your alliance on your main while waiting, whatever. Its a challenge but doable. Its a chance to have a personal dyspro moon. And its an invulnerable asset because deathstars in W-space will be OP. The worst thing is the first people to do this are the only ones that will ever profit from it. Put it this way, the return from this venture will easily pay for the cost of running the alt account necessary to tend the POS. And then some. yep thanks, I get it now! ingenious. So your alt would have to jump through the wormhole to see if it comes out in empire space. Then when it opens up in empire space you can meet up to get your minerals out! The alt would have to make sure he jumps back through before the wormhole collapses. It would have some risks, the alt would always have to immediately get back to W space, just in case the wormhole collapses, because other players start using it! ...it would be a bit of a blow if CCP decided not to put any worthwhile minerals in the moons in WH space!
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:44:00 - [1030] Edited by: Xailia on 28/01/2009 16:49:21 Originally by: War Fairy I think what was said was K-W-K pathing or that the tech could handle K-K WHs but they weren't in the design at this time. I'll have to check that when I have time. What did Prism say to contradict? Edit: I just reread his post and I don't see what contradicts mine. Can you share please? Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. However Greyscale before that: Originally by: CCP Greyscale There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go. and Originally by: CCP Greyscale Yes., there's always a wormhole somewhere. May not always go where you want though. The links are random, so all kinds of configurations can occur. Obviously there is some confusion between teams. Concerning K-K: Originally by: CCP Prism X That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm.

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:55:00 - [1031] Originally by: An Anarchyyt There is no guarantee that W-space MUST have this connection. What does "this" reference? You're using a pronoun without first using a noun. Greyscale says in post 713 that all w-space systems must contain a WH. Please show me where Prism contradicts this. "There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system." CCP Greyscale in refernce to W-space systems in http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=24#713
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:55:00 - [1032] Originally by: Xailia ... Did you just spot a game mechanics with multiple possible implementations in consideration and none set in stone? Oh my, you certainly caught the devs with their proverbial pants around their heads.
Granmethedon III Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:58:00 - [1033] Originally by: Xailia Edited by: Xailia on 28/01/2009 16:49:21 Originally by: War Fairy I think what was said was K-W-K pathing or that the tech could handle K-K WHs but they weren't in the design at this time. I'll have to check that when I have time. What did Prism say to contradict? Edit: I just reread his post and I don't see what contradicts mine. Can you share please? Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. However Greyscale before that: Originally by: CCP Greyscale There'll always be a wormhole leading somewhere, somewhere in the system. It just might not be going somewhere you want it to go. and Originally by: CCP Greyscale Yes., there's always a wormhole somewhere. May not always go where you want though. The links are random, so all kinds of configurations can occur. Obviously there is some confusion between teams. Concerning K-K: Originally by: CCP Prism X That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm. You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;)
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 16:59:00 - [1034] Edited by: War Fairy on 28/01/2009 17:03:17 Edit: Someone beat me to it. points up What they said.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:02:00 - [1035] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/01/2009 17:02:34 Originally by: Granmethedon III You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;) No he didn't miss anything. Because you are doing nothing but speculating that that is what Prism meant. Where in his post does he qualify what he is referring to?
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:02:00 - [1036] Originally by: Granmethedon III ... Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. ... You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;) No, CCP PrismX is actually saying that there are two classes of wormspace systems. Those that _MUST_ have at least one wormhole, and those that might have zero or more.
Zindak	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:05:00 - [1037] I'm still in favor of the one way wormhole idea. Conditions : - every wormhole is unidirectional - every W-System has at least 1 W-W - a W-System can have one or more additional K-W and/or W-K Fasten your seatbelt for a real expedition. - One member finds a K-W and jumps through to see what's on the other side. - Informs his team members what's there. - A team is formed and jumps after the first explorer, 3 ships for recon are included - The team "does it's thing" in the W-system and starts to find a way home - A wormhole is searched and found : recon 1 jumps through - It turns out to be a W-K, ending in the backyard of an enemy alliance. Recon 1 warns the rest of the team not to follow and starts on his road to try to get out of the enemy space (traveling through 0.0 or searching for another K-W) - The rest of the team searches for another wormhole and since every W-system contains at least one W-W, there must be at least one additional wormhole. - A new wormhole is found : Recon 2 jumps through - It's a W-W : the rest of the team also jumps through - Search for the next wormhole : found and Recon 2 jumps through again - It's a W-K and he ends up in friendly K-Space Imagine epic stories, about how 3 recon ships of the expedition team ended up scattered around the K-Space, each one trying to get home again, through K- or W-Space, each with it's own stories. How the rest of the team, after "loosing contact" with their 3 recon ships and since only 1 prober was left and the team being under attack of another expedition team, took the plunge and all jumped through the next wormhole, not knowing what's on the other side Imagine difficult decisions : we found a W-K to a friendly system, but it can only let pass half the team before it will collapse. Do we split the team by sending a part of the team through the W-K or do we all stay together and hope for a good W-K further on that will let all of us pass ? Imagine only finding wormholes when in a W-system which are all too limited for the whole team at ones, so the team is forced to split up. This would be real exploring and there would be no way to control this W-space. Incredible expedition-stories would be told in the station-bars while drinking lots of beer
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:08:00 - [1038] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/01/2009 17:02:34 Originally by: Granmethedon III You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;) No he didn't miss anything. Because you are doing nothing but speculating that that is what Prism meant. Where in his post does he qualify what he is referring to? Logic is hard. Greyscale says that w-space systems must have a worm hole. Prism says unless a system must have a worm hole (w-space) that the system may not contain one. These are complementary not contradicting.
Granmethedon III Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:08:00 - [1039] Edited by: Granmethedon III on 28/01/2009 17:08:57 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/01/2009 17:02:34 Originally by: Granmethedon III You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;) No he didn't miss anything. Because you are doing nothing but speculating that that is what Prism meant. Where in his post does he qualify what he is referring to? I'm simply taking what both he and Greyscale have said, applying some common sense, and coming to what appears to be an obvious conclusion. Greyscale says that all w-space systems must have a wormhole. Prism says that there are systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them. I would assume that the systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside them are therefore w-space systems, as opposed to k-space systems, As you say though, speculation; only Prism and Greyscale will be able to say either way. EDIT. Damn, beaten by my poxy slow typing.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:10:00 - [1040] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Granmethedon III ... Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. ... You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;) No, CCP PrismX is actually saying that there are two classes of wormspace systems. Those that _MUST_ have at least one wormhole, and those that might have zero or more. Right and the class that must have one is w-space. It's not that hard people. At this point I'm just going to assume I fell for a goon troll and plonk any further posts.

Granmethedon III Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:11:00 - [1041] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Granmethedon III ... Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. ... You missed off the important part (highlighted in red) that shows that both Prism and Greyscale agree the W-space MUST always have a wormhole in it. ;) No, CCP PrismX is actually saying that there are two classes of wormspace systems. Those that _MUST_ have at least one wormhole, and those that might have zero or more. Possibly; I just read it as W-space MUST contain wormholes, whereas K-space might not. That way, there's no discrepancy in the information provided.
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:14:00 - [1042] Edited by: Des Jardin on 28/01/2009 17:18:08 Edited by: Des Jardin on 28/01/2009 17:16:42 Edited by: Des Jardin on 28/01/2009 17:15:50 Originally by: Zackalwe Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 16:44:44 Originally by: CCP Prism X ... Let me rephrase that for you: It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. However, as we now know, we did always intend to allow industrious people to set up shop in wormhole space. Otherwise there is nothing stopping us from making a flat out ban on POSs in WHS. To answer your example, I see nothing wrong with that. That was not what I was referring to at all. My point is that you are perhaps underestimating the effort involved on a larger scale and I am indeed looking forward to see whom is under-estimating whom in that regard. But my comment had absolutely nothing to do with huge alliances being unable to ''claim'' a single system. ... I see where you are coming from, and please dont take my posts as disrespect. I like the idea of the wormhole system. The problem is this: I DONT see this as requiring alliances to do, it can easily be done with one guy and 4 accounts if he is on the ball. And thats fine, smart play should yield reward. The real problem is the fact that a deathstar will be totally invincible in W-space. If the guy running it is smart and runs it correctly, he will have a personal moon pumping out isk with no risk of losing it. And he could keep it forever. Following this line of reasoning... The only problem I have with this is they will be invincible Isk-making assets that only the select few (the early explorers) will have. Basically it seems like the BPO lottery all over again. As has been noted in previous comments, the fear about POS-moon ISK domination is based on two assumptions: 1. Moons mining is the ISK maker of w-space, and 2. Other EVE pilots are the only things that a POS builder should worry about. If I roll into a w-space system and find a POS mining a moon, my first desire is not going to be to form a fleet for a POS take down. In fact, I would simply ignore it. POS's are fixed assets. They do not roam belts or camp gates. If I don't make my ISK by mining, why should I care if someone is pulling assets from a moon. Heck, I might even want to buy stuff off of them. Instead, I will search the system for sites and belts. Now, if I roll into a w-space system and find active pilots, my first desire will be to locate and identify them. Then I will plot out my next course of action. Given the overall pilot/system average population, I don't think there are going to be many w-space pockets with active 10+ member teams. This leaves the last assumption -- that in w-space only other EVE pilots make you scream. I can't imagine that the "locals" are going to take too kindly to "aliens" dropping POS's on their moons. It is certainly possible that they might already have their own POS's set up. Now wouldn't that be a kick in the pants. I think this entire discussion has been very useful and insightful. The concerns about POS domination are valid and we will just have to see what happens. To me, the biggest area subject to abuse is the "forced wormhole shifts." I am just not sure how (or if) to suggest fixing it. /salute Des Jardin
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:16:00 - [1043] Originally by: Xailia stuff... While there might always be a wormhole in a W-System, that doesn't mean that it can lead you back to K-Space. If wormholes are connected randomly, with "profitable" W-Systems having a bias to link to other W-Systems, the it is reasonable to expect that those system would frequently form self-contained loops with no open path back to K-Space. While you can escape from such loops by jump-wait-repeat until you find youself back in K-Space, there is no way for you to plot a return trip back to your "colonized" system. Without a temporily stable K-W-W...W-W-POS link, colonization is impossible, and there is no assurance that such links will exist (atleast not with sufficient frequency) for the more profitable systems.
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:17:00 - [1044] i am guessing here, but it appears that they are modified there mech.s not confused. they stated that nothing is totally set yet, and they are smart enough to listen to ppl in here. to try and work out many of the bugs before they even drop it on sisi. was stated at least 2 times that k>k wh's would exist, the trade routs in early post, to clearifie later.but at that time they said all Wspace would have a W>K WH, now after all the talk it would seam they have seen a need to make logistics of a PoS on some moons harder.so there are to be some systems that will not have a WH all the time, let alone one that goes to K space. i know many don't read the entire posts, because with all the repeate and guesses(like this one), it becomes a daunting task. and for this reason i normaly stay away from these. but got to say ccp has me more hyped about an expansion than i have in over 6 yrs of morpg'ing.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:19:00 - [1045] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor CCP...a couple of questions: How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? In wormhole space, if the next wormhole found is to restrictive to let your gang of ships through, can you keep scanning for wormholes, until one matches the mass of your ships? or does the open wormhole have to collapse before any new wormholes can be discovered? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. P.S. You got an expansion that starts with a Q! Now you want systems as well! Please read the post again carefully, and consider the context here... First, he's answering a question about wormholes in wormhole systems. Second, the bolded parts of the answer does not make sense if he's talking about both k- and w-space systems.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:21:00 - [1046] Originally by: JimBob Leeroy i am guessing here, but it appears that they are modified there mech.s not confused. they stated that nothing is totally set yet, and they are smart enough to listen to ppl in here. to try and work out many of the bugs before they even drop it on sisi. was stated at least 2 times that k>k wh's would exist, the trade routs in early post, to clearifie later.but at that time they said all Wspace would have a W>K WH, now after all the talk it would seam they have seen a need to make logistics of a PoS on some moons harder.so there are to be some systems that will not have a WH all the time, let alone one that goes to K space. i know many don't read the entire posts, because with all the repeate and guesses(like this one), it becomes a daunting task. and for this reason i normaly stay away from these. but got to say ccp has me more hyped about an expansion than i have in over 6 yrs of morpg'ing. The trade routes mentioned earlier specifically mention K-W-K.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:22:00 - [1047] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/01/2009 17:24:25 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab No, CCP PrismX is actually saying that there are two classes of wormspace systems. Those that _MUST_ have at least one wormhole, and those that might have zero or more. Time flies like an arrow! (If you got that you're pretty spiffy!) My bad, the quote strictly references wormhole space systems and I totally violated the contextual scope. I was referring to any given system, not strictly just wormhole space. However, I would argue that the definition does not change the possible meaning of my post, just removes the ambiguity. I never expressed any need for systems with no wormholes in them like I expressed the need for the other (Excuses, excuses, excuses! Thank god for that unless..). At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. It should be expressed again, as Whisper commented on, that the nature of SCRUM is such that nothing here is set in stone. I know all developers say this during these kinds of discussions but SCRUM is made for that. So, things might change.. that's the point of getting the feedback from you guys (although I also like the "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s).

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:22:00 - [1048] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Khanto Thor CCP...a couple of questions: How many open wormholes can there be in a wormhole system? In wormhole space, if the next wormhole found is to restrictive to let your gang of ships through, can you keep scanning for wormholes, until one matches the mass of your ships? or does the open wormhole have to collapse before any new wormholes can be discovered? With the exception of systems that are forced to have at least one wormhole inside of them, a given system could theoretically have all the existing wormholes within it. The latter depends on whether there are any other wormholes there or not. Collapsing the wormhole you already have will not guarantee a new wormhole spawning in your current system, unless your system is one of those previously mentioned systems that are forced to have at least 1 wormhole in them at any given moment. It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. P.S. You got an expansion that starts with a Q! Now you want systems as well! Please read the post again carefully, and consider the context here... First, he's answering a question about wormholes in wormhole systems. Second, the bolded parts of the answer does not make sense if he's talking about both k- and w-space systems. Anything before the unless is meaningless as w-space systems meet the criteria after the unless.
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:25:00 - [1049] Originally by: Zackalwe Edited by: Zackalwe on 28/01/2009 16:32:37 Originally by: Khanto Thor I imagine you could do this, but because there is 2500 systems which the wormhole you found could go to, it may take a very long time before you finally find a wormhole back to your POS. How many scans would that take?, it probably would not be worth the time and effort and you could make more isk ratting! No using the system I outlined you would always be with your POS. The only variable is when it allows a route back to K-space. Which presumably it must do sometime. Even if its a route to K-space through another W-space, its still doable and not very time intensive. You can rat all you like in the system while waiting for a route to K-space to open up. You can go fight with your alliance on your main while waiting, whatever. Its a challenge but doable. Its a chance to have a personal dyspro moon. And its an invulnerable asset because deathstars in W-space will be OP. The worst thing is the first people to do this are the only ones that will ever profit from it. Put it this way, the return from this venture will easily pay for the cost of running the alt account necessary to tend the POS. And then some. Just had a thought, you could use the same mechanism over a few days to get a fleet of RR battleships into a system from empire. For them to attack a POS, the chance of getting a defence fleet into the system in time will be remote, if the alt logs in, he would take a great risk in leaving the POS to try and find a wormhole. Even when coming out of reinforce, it would be easy for an attacking fleet to lockdown a system so no sizeable defence fleet would arrive in time!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:26:00 - [1050] Originally by: War Fairy Anything before the unless is meaningless as w-space systems meet the criteria after the unless. "heh"

Granmethedon III Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:27:00 - [1051] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/01/2009 17:24:25 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab No, CCP PrismX is actually saying that there are two classes of wormspace systems. Those that _MUST_ have at least one wormhole, and those that might have zero or more. Time flies like an arrow! (If you got that you're pretty spiffy!) My bad, the quote strictly references wormhole space systems and I totally violated the contextual scope. I was referring to any given system, not strictly just wormhole space. However, I would argue that the definition does not change the possible meaning of my post, just removes the ambiguity. I never expressed any need for systems with no wormholes in them like I expressed the need for the other (Excuses, excuses, excuses! Thank god for that unless..). At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. It should be expressed again, as Whisper commented on, that the nature of SCRUM is such that nothing here is set in stone. I know all developers say this during these kinds of discussions but SCRUM is made for that. So, things might change.. that's the point of getting the feedback from you guys (although I also like the "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s). It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:29:00 - [1052] Originally by: War Fairy Anything before the unless is meaningless as w-space systems meet the criteria after the unless. It is the action of collapsing and hoping for a new wormhole to appear that is not applicable to w-space. It would be if you were looking for better w-space systems and hoping to keep your exploration to one system, but we haven't really even touched that possibility yet. Anyway, the god himself answered above.
Green Aen	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:31:00 - [1053] i'm in favour of giving wormholes a volume counter, not a mass counter. allows for a bit bigger battleship fleets and reduces the amount of battlecruisers and cruisers. 1 carrier = 10 battleships now 1 battleship = 10 cruisers now on volume it would be like 1 carrier = 20 battleships 1 battleship = 5 cruisers yes it also gives some problems but volume is easier to change then mass. and mass ratio's just ** carrier=mothership=dread=rorqual=freighter <= this ***

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:32:00 - [1054] Originally by: Granmethedon III It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only. Yes it has, but as I see it that would go against the core design. Although everything is mutable that would be a huge change that should not be made for that express purpose alone. It should be a reaction to a core mechanics change, it would require the answer to the question of "Why do we want wormhole space?" to change. Not a possibly exploitative mechanic surfacing. That being said, the code architecture is not done in such a draconic manner that it's impossible to switch. We might even, possibly at some point, maybe, i wish i had more words to indicate utter uncertainty, have two kinds of worm holes. 1-Way and 2-Way. Hell, we could probably put a permanent wormhole somewhere that would simple throw you out the exit of a random, already existing wormhole. What I'm trying to say is: Impossible is what we put on our cereal in the morning.

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:33:00 - [1055] Edited by: War Fairy on 28/01/2009 17:34:52 EDIT: Too slow again. Redundant post deleted.
Granmethedon III Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:35:00 - [1056] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Granmethedon III It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only. Yes it has, but as I see it that would go against the core design. Although everything is mutable that would be a huge change that should not be made for that express purpose alone. It should be a reaction to a core mechanics change, it would require the answer to the question of "Why do we want wormhole space?" to change. Not a possibly exploitative mechanic surfacing. That being said, the code architecture is not done in such a draconic manner that it's impossible to switch. We might even, possibly at some point, maybe, i wish i had more words to indicate utter uncertainty, have two kinds of worm holes. 1-Way and 2-Way. Hell, we could probably put a permanent wormhole somewhere that would simple throw you out the exit of a random, already existing wormhole. What I'm trying to say is: Impossible is what we put on our cereal in the morning. Me likes the sound of that! wishes hard
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:46:00 - [1057] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: War Fairy Anything before the unless is meaningless as w-space systems meet the criteria after the unless. It is the action of collapsing and hoping for a new wormhole to appear that is not applicable to w-space. It would be if you were looking for better w-space systems and hoping to keep your exploration to one system, but we haven't really even touched that possibility yet. Anyway, the god himself answered above. That's just wrong. Learn what unless means. The action of collapising and hoping for a new one applies to systems that don't have to have a worm hole. That's k-space.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:50:00 - [1058] Edited by: Xailia on 28/01/2009 17:50:43 Originally by: CCP Prism X Time flies like an arrow! (If you got that you're pretty spiffy!) My bad, the quote strictly references wormhole space systems and I totally violated the contextual scope. I was referring to any given system, not strictly just wormhole space. However, I would argue that the definition does not change the possible meaning of my post, just removes the ambiguity. I never expressed any need for systems with no wormholes in them like I expressed the need for the other (Excuses, excuses, excuses! Thank god for that unless..). At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. It should be expressed again, as Whisper commented on, that the nature of SCRUM is such that nothing here is set in stone. I know all developers say this during these kinds of discussions but SCRUM is made for that. So, things might change.. that's the point of getting the feedback from you guys (although I also like the "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s). So to clarify: W-systems have 1-n wormholes active. K-systems have 0-n wormholes active. Certain K-systems have 1-n wormholes active. Correct? and "Some W-systems can have 0 wormholes active" is under consideration?
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:52:00 - [1059] Forced wormhole shifting: I suggest two possible solutions to mitigate abusing a wormhole closure through the transiting mass trigger -- 1. Prevent ships exiting a wormhole from retargeting the wormhole for 30 secs -- like how ships undocking from a station cannot be targeted for 30 seconds (unless then take an affirmative action); or 2. Eject ships exiting a wormhole, that is, give them some degree of forward momentum that they need to turn and reapproach the wormhole before they could reenter. Both suggestions would slow down the ability of ships to close an undesirable wormhole. More time, means more time for pilots in the undesirable system to notice the recent visitors. I see three basic reasons (I sure there are more) to accelerated wormhole closure -- 1. Pilots in w-space want to keep others out; 2. Pilots in k-space want to keep others out; and 3. Pilots don't like where the wormhole leads. By delaying the ability of either side to prematurely close the wormhole, the potential for something "bad" to happen increases. Maybe some undesirables slip through, maybe the locals come to investigate who keeps popping in and out of their system. Further, the time delay does not negate the basic functioning of the wormhole but adds a nuance that complicates simply waiting for a quick succession of session changes. Just a thought ... Des Jardin
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:52:00 - [1060] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/01/2009 17:24:25 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab . At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. It should be expressed again, as Whisper commented on, that the nature of SCRUM is such that nothing here is set in stone. I know all developers say this during these kinds of discussions but SCRUM is made for that. So, things might change.. that's the point of getting the feedback from you guys (although I also like the "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s). you Overcapitalised it again. To me the solution is simple take the list of regions treat them like a deck of cards each Wormhole has a deck of regions that it will link to then shuffle the wormholes "deck of regions" then every time it needs to open a wormhole it picks the system from the region on the top of the deck. once you get 75% (or 80 or 90 or 95%) of the regions drawn, shuffle the discard pile of regions and add it to the bottom of the pile. that will tend to force the wormhole to move around and force any wanabe Wormhole tunnel diggers to at least work for a liveing to get it back to "there" space

Shinma Apollo	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:53:00 - [1061] A few things: Concord: This sounds like a surefire way to exploit concordorkenning by scanning down a W, ganking someone in a belt, warping to W, and jumping through. Wormholes: Will they operate like stargates so they can be bubbled as such? Cloaking: PLEASE remove cloaking as a viable strategy for wormholes, otherwise wormhole systems can be easily distinguished by, "Oh I'm in wmlmmkmk system, right next to asdfffass system" Moons: will there be standard moons? It would pretty much obliterate the exploration idea within a few weeks if it was.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:53:00 - [1062] Originally by: Xailia Edited by: Xailia on 28/01/2009 17:50:43 Originally by: CCP Prism X Time flies like an arrow! (If you got that you're pretty spiffy!) My bad, the quote strictly references wormhole space systems and I totally violated the contextual scope. I was referring to any given system, not strictly just wormhole space. However, I would argue that the definition does not change the possible meaning of my post, just removes the ambiguity. I never expressed any need for systems with no wormholes in them like I expressed the need for the other (Excuses, excuses, excuses! Thank god for that unless..). At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. It should be expressed again, as Whisper commented on, that the nature of SCRUM is such that nothing here is set in stone. I know all developers say this during these kinds of discussions but SCRUM is made for that. So, things might change.. that's the point of getting the feedback from you guys (although I also like the "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s). So to clarify: W-systems have 1-n wormholes active. K-systems have 0-n wormholes active. Certain K-systems have 1-n wormholes active. Correct? and "Some W-systems can have 0 wormholes active" is under consideration? It's exactly what I said earlier. K-space systems may have a WH. K-space WHs only lead to W-space. W-space systems must have a WH. W-space WHs can lead to either W-space or K-space.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.28 17:56:00 - [1063] PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:01:00 - [1064] Edited by: Khanto Thor on 28/01/2009 18:01:02 I think there should be a max limit of 1024 wormholes active at any time. That will make it far more interesting!
Arimathea Anthalas Game-Over	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:02:00 - [1065] CCP: I have a few questions that have not yet been answered in the thread, and a few comments. POS Scanner Array: Perhaps you could consider modifying the purpose of this array, which I find is rarely used (sov requirements?), to have some wormhole finding features. Other POS structures: I would particularly like to see a new set of Astrometrics POS structures for people with higher skills (this isn't specifically related to wormholes, more related to K-space). Better astrometrics platforms: While we have a great amount of scanning ships and fits right now, I think more could be done with astrometrics in general other than just modifying the scanner systems as you've already stated - particularly to reward players that have invested a lot of energy into training up astrometrics stuff. I'd like to see things like a deployable astrometrics array (with a lot of caveats) that goes above & beyond probing but has somewhat asinine skill requirements in order to make the payoff worth it. Cloaking: I assume that when you arrive into a WH system and out of one, that the normal session change cloak will remain active. This is the case, yes? I think in short, i'd just like to request for either Apocrypha or post-Apocrypha, you spend some time thinking about the future of astrometrics. I know that with an alt of mine I really enjoy the work of scanning down and exploration, and while WH are a logical, worthwhile, and enjoyable extension to that, i'd like to allow people to open new businesses "vending information" about wormholes. To me this means we need things like the "wormhole survey" probes and other items suggested earlier in the thread. Please give that some consideration. Oh, also, last and not least, can someone PLEASE fix the Draftsman GI-2 implant bug at Apocrypha release? This bug is over a year old and there isn't much of an excuse for it to still be around. I'd like to say thanks again for a great teaser & expansion plans - the WH stuff looks great and i'm very excited. AA
Zex Maxwell Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:02:00 - [1066] Originally by: Armoured C PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, can we see some concept art? So we can give you guys more Originally by: CCP Prism X "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:03:00 - [1067] OOOOOOOOOOOh Devs, Plese, Can you put alien stations in WH space??? Like an awesome treat that you randomly find that has a POS in every moon, a stocked market full of T3 items, some random missions, etc??? Make it like two or three w-w links deep, something that you really have to look for.
Zackalwe Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:04:00 - [1068] Originally by: CCP Prism X The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. It should be expressed again, as Whisper commented on, that the nature of SCRUM is such that nothing here is set in stone. I know all developers say this during these kinds of discussions but SCRUM is made for that. So, things might change.. that's the point of getting the feedback from you guys (although I also like the "OOohh"s and "AAAaaah"s). Its good to know our feedback is apreciated, and we give it (most of the time) so that our game can be improved. If you guys decide to allow invincible deathstars on isk maker moons, and the ability to supply them, then fair enough. I will be one of the first to try to set one up for myself, and never have to worry about isk again :) It just seems a bit cheesy to me if it turns out this way. All we can do is give you feedback on how we would play the game for profit given the mechanics that you have talked about. On a lighter note: Have you considered that wormholes can theoretically transport you in time as well as space? Could you code in the possibility of us going back to experience the first Great Northern War? I could bring a few capitals back and help out Razor against the MC
Nemtar Nataal Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:05:00 - [1069] Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 28/01/2009 18:06:18 Looks really interesting so looking forward to this new depth in EVE :) (yes i actually forgot to say that i in general like this blog...sorry guys....:) ) I hope this system with a whole new way of utelising probes will actually benefit from Astrometrics LVL5 as currentrly that level only gives access to using special moon probes and nothing else. The skills description (enables 1 scanning group pr level) well there are only 5 scanning groups and no probe can be used to scan in all of the groups anyway. I know there is a lot os skills that do absolutely nothing but seeing as this new expansion will be all about scanning maybe you should take a little look at Astrometrics (lvl5)
Arito Ka Gallente Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:05:00 - [1070] A lot of people have been commenting on the possibility of using scanning alts parked in W space systems and jumping in and out of wormholes in order to make getting back into a system much easier. While I agree that this would make it much easier to maintain a pos in that system, I think there are a couple points to consider: It has been stated that not all W space will be created equally, both in terms of system resources and where WH's originating in that system will lead. It is possible that W space has something similar to sec status in K space, with high-sec W systems having WH's connected to K space or low-sec W space, low-sec W systems connected to high- or null-sec W space, and null-sec systems which only connect to low- or other null-sec. Assuming that resources are also distributed unevenly, the systems that would be most profitable to colonize would also be the ones A.) hardest to find, and B.) hardest to get back to. Even using alts to close unwanted wormholes, it would still take a considerable amount of time and/or luck to find a route to friendly space if you have to travel through at least 3-5 W systems. Also, you could no longer find ways out with one scanning alt parked in the colonized system, and it would be possible to have the people exploring for ways out to get stuck or unable to retrace their steps. One way wormholes have been mentioned as an alternative mechanic. However, this would make long-term of any system, even the ones routinely connected to k space, practically impossible. If there are 2500 possible exits to any WH you scan down, and it takes 30 minutes to find each one (a very conservative guess from my experiences with conventional exploration) it would take on average 54 23 hour days of scanning before you found a WH that connected to the specific system you were looking for. This would mean that in effect, what you took in with you was all you got. Now this could lead to some interesting situations, such as deciding whether to bring 4 HAC's to kill rats, or swap out one or 2 of them for industrials for carrying ammo and hauling loot, or go with as many industrials as you can fit loaded with POS fuel in hopes that your stumble onto a dyspro moon and milk it for a month before your tower dies. However, I think it makes the options of explorers a bit more restrictive than it should be. If people still think colonization would be to easy, then a timer could be put in so that you cant back-track through a WH you just jumped through for 30 minutes, or something. This would mean that people living in W space would either take what they were given in terms of WH's, or position a whole bunch of "WH closers" along with the manditory scanning alts.

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:08:00 - [1071] Originally by: Raymon James force the wormhole to move around and force any wanabe Wormhole tunnel diggers to at least work for a liveing to get it back to "there" space But you don't need to get to "their" space. Any Empire system will work.
Daryldutch Caldari Relentless Storm Cartel	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:08:00 - [1072] Here is a picture: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/909207/page/71
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:08:00 - [1073] Originally by: War Fairy K-space WHs only lead to W-space. Prism X has left that as a possibility though: Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm.
Rosur Gallente Infestation.	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:09:00 - [1074] This is only one of the features Wonder how big this download is going to be. Also from what i can gather is that the probe launchers to find these systems (existing ones change to the new ones) inculding the faction ones into the new faction probes? W-space will allways have a connection to K-space though u might have to go through lots of W-W space connections? So if u run out of probes the only way back is by self destructing or is there other options? Also will ship scanner be able to find them but a lot lower chance than the probes? Will some W-space have no connections to it for some time if a wormhole runs out?
Khaelis Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:10:00 - [1075] I for one would love to see those Permanent wormholes that throw you out randomly in W-space! Also, a random distribution of 1-way and 2-way wormholes.. The idea of W-systems that do not always have to have an exit wormhole is kinda cool, although after I think about it... it does not sound like that good of an idea. You go out with a group of your mates looking for adventure and 3 wormhole hops in you close the wormhole behind you and find.. no wormholes. You are now stuck for a few hours until one decides to appear. Although I guess you could just not take the risk and not close any wormholes behind you... hmmm..
Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:13:00 - [1076] Edited by: Arthur Rage on 28/01/2009 18:15:21 Originally by: Shinma Apollo Wormholes: Will they operate like stargates so they can be bubbled as such? Cloaking: PLEASE remove cloaking as a viable strategy for wormholes, otherwise wormhole systems can be easily distinguished by, "Oh I'm in wmlmmkmk system, right next to asdfffass system" Wormhole camping, oh noes, Stargate camping is lame enough. Cloaks, any reason why they should not work ? The distinguishing part you mentioned somehow doesn't make sense. Forced Closing : 30sec timer or 100km traval distance, not exactly alot. even if this makes closing 30 minutes longer that'll be still way too fast. My idea - When going through a WH the Ship is affected in a way that it can't go back immiadetly, it is "energized" and gets pushed away like two magnets with the same load whey trying to approach. The bigger the ship the longer it takes for the effectt to dissappear - like 5mins for Shuttles, 15mins for Frigates ... This effect also messes up Sensors and makes locking on the newly arrived ship extremely difficult (impossible for a short while ?). Wormhole camping : nope. (except Smartbombs and so on) Forced closing within a very short time : nope. Reasonable explaination for mechanic : yes.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:21:00 - [1077] Originally by: Xailia Originally by: War Fairy K-space WHs only lead to W-space. Prism X has left that as a possibility though: Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm. He's difficult to the point of malice. He's qualifying it verbally and with emoticon. The tech handles it. Nothing more. He's also said they could possibly be one way. He's also said they could possible have a fixed one that throws you anywhere. My summary is based specifically mentioned items. If there's a concrete statement about K-K WHs please provide it.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:22:00 - [1078] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 28/01/2009 18:26:00 SOLUTION Simple fix for POS problem: No Stronting POS's in WH space. Refining/Moon Mining/hangar/large-gun requires tremendous PG requirements, soo much in fact that the only other thing you can fit is a small gun or two; enough for a small RR BS gang to kill) What happens? BoB holds a ton of WH space. A small, 30 man corp wants a dyspo moon. Corp goes in BoB's off time (does that even exist?) and amasses BS's through the scout trick (poking head out and yelling in corp) They amass a couple dozen BS's and assault, destroy, and set up their own POS in the matter of a couple of hours, under BoB's nose. They then camp the system for a few hours, days whatever, hunting down any alts that log on, collapsing wormholes that pop open, etc. All record of the Dyspo moon is lost for bob, save for BM's that will tell them when they arrive there that it was (even that can be changed ) and the corp now has a Dyspo moon that they can have. How long will they have it? idk, if they keep a couple guys there mining, they can keep it by killing scouts, collapsing WH's, fending off assaults. The key is, no alliance, no matter the size, can ALWAYS have an alt, active and logged in every system they want to claim. And even if they do, say a couple hacs/recons gets in, what's the chance that this scout is going to find the WH before they do, jump out and yell to his buds to run to xyz system to jump in and defend? Slim I say, irregardless of size. Its inelegant, its clunky, but who cares. The only problem I can forsee is how long can an entity hold a moon in this environment? Enough to turn a profit? If you're using only a small POS that's able to fit a single hangar, moon array, refinery, then yea, I think a profit can be had pretty quickly from moon ****. Thoughts?
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:23:00 - [1079] Edited by: War Fairy on 28/01/2009 18:24:21 Originally by: Arthur Rage Edited by: Arthur Rage on 28/01/2009 18:15:21 Originally by: Shinma Apollo Wormholes: Will they operate like stargates so they can be bubbled as such? Cloaking: PLEASE remove cloaking as a viable strategy for wormholes, otherwise wormhole systems can be easily distinguished by, "Oh I'm in wmlmmkmk system, right next to asdfffass system" Wormhole camping, oh noes, Stargate camping is lame enough. Cloaks, any reason why they should not work ? The distinguishing part you mentioned somehow doesn't make sense. Forced Closing : 30sec timer or 100km traval distance, not exactly alot. even if this makes closing 30 minutes longer that'll be still way too fast. My idea - When going through a WH the Ship is affected in a way that it can't go back immiadetly, it is "energized" and gets pushed away like two magnets with the same load whey trying to approach. The bigger the ship the longer it takes for the effectt to dissappear - like 5mins for Shuttles, 15mins for Frigates ... This effect also messes up Sensors and makes locking on the newly arrived ship extremely difficult (impossible for a short while ?). Wormhole camping : nope. (except Smartbombs and so on) Forced closing within a very short time : nope. Reasonable explaination for mechanic : yes. This only stops small groups. Large groups of players can throw people at the problem to negate the game mechanic. Due to the random nature I think worm hole camping will be staring at empty space. You're better off roving.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:29:00 - [1080] Originally by: Des Jardin 1. Prevent ships exiting a wormhole from retargeting the wormhole for 30 secs -- like how ships undocking from a station cannot be targeted for 30 seconds (unless then take an affirmative action); Currently there is no way that you can avoid the session change timer mechanics when moving from one system to another. There is no reason to beleive that those same mechanics would not apply equally to wormholes. Originally by: Shinma Apollo Concord: This sounds like a surefire way to exploit concordorkenning by scanning down a W, ganking someone in a belt, warping to W, and jumping through. Obviously a required mechanic. If CCP forget to impliment this (like they did with the introduction of Black Ops ships) then expect it to be officially declared an exploit within a couple of day of the expansion's release. Originally by: Shinma Apollo Wormholes: Will they operate like stargates so they can be bubbled as such? It has already be stated that you could do this. The question is why bother. If your going to look for wormholes in a busy system, then you deserve to be caught by the camp on the other side. If pirates want to camp a wormhole in a quite system, all the better than they aren't camping a wormhole that is going to net them any targets. Originally by: Shinma Apollo Cloaking: PLEASE remove cloaking as a viable strategy for wormholes, otherwise wormhole systems can be easily distinguished by, "Oh I'm in wmlmmkmk system, right next to asdfffass system" What on earth you are talking about? Originally by: Shinma Apollo Moons: will there be standard moons? It would pretty much obliterate the exploration idea within a few weeks if it was. Yes there will be moons. No it will not obliterate exploration idea within a few weeks.

Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:29:00 - [1081] Originally by: War Fairy This only stops small groups. Large groups of players can throw people at the problem to negate the game mechanic. Due to the random nature I think worm hole camping will be staring at empty space. You're better off roving. Depending on where the WH leads it may be a very bad idea to have 10 BS jump through and wait for 5 hours ... like Flashy reds sitting in HighSec, or in Hostile space.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:37:00 - [1082] Originally by: Arthur Rage Originally by: War Fairy This only stops small groups. Large groups of players can throw people at the problem to negate the game mechanic. Due to the random nature I think worm hole camping will be staring at empty space. You're better off roving. Depending on where the WH leads it may be a very bad idea to have 10 BS jump through and wait for 5 hours ... like Flashy reds sitting in HighSec, or in Hostile space. Could be fun it the camp doesn't watch the timer on the wormhole, or miscalculates the mass of their fleet. "Uh, guys that Orca we just killed nearly closed the wormhole. First one through the hole keeps his ship, everyone else gets to self destruct."
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:37:00 - [1083] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space. That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:42:00 - [1084] still want pictures of wormholes
Raymon James Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:44:00 - [1085] Edited by: Raymon James on 28/01/2009 18:54:01 Edited by: Raymon James on 28/01/2009 18:53:17 Edited by: Raymon James on 28/01/2009 18:45:41 Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Zackalwe Originally by: CCP Prism X It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. I find in a lot of MMOs the devs consistently underestimate the resourcefulness and determination of some of their playerbase. If it turns out that deathstars do end up on the majority of good moons, will you then agree that allowing this was a mistake and make changes to the mechanics? Let me rephrase that for you: [i]It's really not as nice and comfy over there as some of the proponents of Alliances claiming everything with POSs would like you to think. I'm quite looking forward to following to seeing these plans unfold upon launch. . . . On a personal note: I'm a player as well man. I've been an MMO player for much longer than I've been an MMO developer. And I'd have to have been playing some.. apocryphal.. MMOs to think that devs will always out-think players. I would also have to have zero programming experience. Ive been running some spread sheets to see what the numbers look like my base assumptions 1) the Average wormhole would only fit an orca (meaning half the time it would not fit) 2) wormholes would randomly conect to ANY system including to itself and other wormholes 3) needing to have a network of Orcas ready to move within three jumps of any given new wormhole 4)haveing orcas deployed in a patern on standby so that their is at least one within 3 jumps of where you land a wormhole(based on the "core" unit being in Jita)(to clarify the wormhole had to land somehere in or very close to the Forge) and 5)you are able to scan and crush a wormhole gate every 5 min it takes an average of just under 6 hours a day to get a given wormhole to link back to the Forge with a wormhole big enough to allow an orca
Zhora Six	Posted - 2009.01.28 18:54:00 - [1086] Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. I don't like the idea of an in-out trick either.
Zhora Six	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:06:00 - [1087] Edited by: Zhora Six on 28/01/2009 19:07:06 Originally by: Des Jardin 2. Eject ships exiting a wormhole, that is, give them some degree of forward momentum that they need to turn and reapproach the wormhole before they could reenter. I like this idea. It could work much like appearing on the other side of a stargate - at a distance from the entrance. Larger, slower ships would take longer to return to the wormhole, while smaller faster ships could return to the wormhole more quickly. This could balance out the factor that ship mass would play for doing the in-out trick to quickly close a wormhole.
Aya Vandenovich	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:07:00 - [1088] Originally by: Zhora Six Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. I don't like the idea of an in-out trick either. I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to put some kind of "aggression timer" on ships exiting a wormhole. Nothing too annoying, but enough that trying to do multiple jumps to collapse a wormhole would take serious time in most cases.
Zhora Six	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:14:00 - [1089] Edited by: Zhora Six on 28/01/2009 19:14:17 Originally by: Aya Vandenovich I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to put some kind of "aggression timer" on ships exiting a wormhole. Nothing too annoying, but enough that trying to do multiple jumps to collapse a wormhole would take serious time in most cases. A cooldown timer, due to the stress of travelling through the wormhole. I considered that concept, but static timers always feel contrived to me. Makes me think of Battlestar Galactica - We can't spool up the FTL drive for another X minutes! edit: sp
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:21:00 - [1090] No stront timers on pos. + New kind of POS for WH space that only has enough space for a [moon miner, refinery array, hangar, or large gun] + a small gun = Small corp can find, move pilots in, and kill a POS before a big alliance can do anything. Through camping and days of diligence, eradicate alts in teh system to make the WH system disappear from the large alliance's vision. Pow, small corp can now beat a large alliances hold.

Darkdood	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:26:00 - [1091] I think I understand now why I dislike this whole setup... The small picture... #1 Not allowing Sovereignty The problem is the devs gimp your ability to make a wormspace system "home" by not allowing sov. Why would you want sov anyway? Well frankly you wouldn't accept for 2-3 things... Cap ship maintenance bays and assem arrays... System scanning array... Outposts... POS fuel savings... Everything else is useless or not allowed for various reasons. I'm not really sure about allowing outposts but I'd really like to see the ability of wormspace POS's to use cap ship bays and or system scanners. Especially the cap ship arrays. If you have to do everything locally in that system things like that are very important. Solution A - keep current system and set it were max sov is only lvl 1-2. You can never get 2-4 so 80% of this stuff is unusable. Solution B - rig the code to specially allow a few POS modules to work in wormspace even without sov. I lean towards this one myself. #2 POS fuel I've seen posts about this before but the structure of wormholes makes it an even more potent argument. Give us the ability to make our own fuel. I don't care if it takes 3 times the isk value to do. I should be able to mine gather and whatever until my fingers bleed to get the fuel IN SYSTEM to make my POS's run. So ... 1 - add BPO's to make the various trade goods that are part of POS fuel. enriched uranium, mechanical parts, oxygen etc... 2 - add BPO's to convert things from one type to another... IE if i find local ice that is oxygen isotopes and my POS's run on Helium give me a BPO were I can take 150 units of Oxy-Iso's + 50 units of xyz gas (weather this is POS poo or gas cloud mining doesn't matter) the result would be I have 100 Helium Iso's etc etc... Its not efficient or cost effective but it allows you to use any type of tower or capital ship with any resources. 3 - make all wormspace systems randomly spawn grav sites that can contain every resource in the game including ice. Also just like you always have one wormhole you always have one grav site in every system. So you are always guaranteed to have something to mine. Its just a random choice as to what. I think you get the jist... This would not be cost effective in K-space were you can just buy them from NPC's & players etc etc but in W-space its far easier to mine 2,000 isk worth of minerals and make mechanical parts than to buy them for 600 isk and try to import them. The big picture... This setup does solve a big problem in eve and that is the large alliances controlling 0.0 with blob fleets. However the only way it does so is by completely isolating yourself from the rest of the world. The only way to truly take advantage of these wormsapce systems is to pack up everything and move there. You scout whatever wormhole is leaving the system and when you get a lucky one that goes to highsec you ferry in/out as many things as you can before it closes, or if the devs do what I've suggested above you could just stay in that one system and never ever leave. In fact leaving would be a bad idea because getting back would be a problem... Which is why I'm insulted... The devs solution doesn't bring us together to work as a group or fight each other etc... It leads to separating us. Which sort of defeats the purpose of an MMO. cont...
Darkdood	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:27:00 - [1092] cont... Lets go in another direction... For a second lets forget POS's sov etc... Why not give us the ability to moon mine with a ship? Obviously it would not work if a POS was already mining that moon. For that matter make it were only one ship can mine a moon at a time. Probably create a new capital ship specifically to do this. Jump capable. Lowsec only. This would allow us to access moon minerals in 0.4 space and in wormspace without POS's. More importantly why not give us the ability to manufacture in space with a ship? A few months back I came up with an idea for "explorer" super caps. I never posted it. One of the biggest problems I ran into was the idea that this ship needed to be able to function in deep space without stargates. That meant having BPO's with you and simply mining and or making everything on the spot. Same thing applies here. Why not make a module for ships that has one manufacturing line. Give it a high material requirement but speed up the build time. I'm sure there are some technical issues but I doubt its impossible. Just make it were if you unmount the module its the same as canceling the job. You lose your stuff. You can scale this with multiple module types and/or a new ship class so its not abused. Run out of probes? NP make more. With these two things you wouldn't need POS's at all in wormspace. Everything could happen on board the ships.
Thebro Nobrunder Schrodinger's Renegades	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:29:00 - [1093] you could also make wormholes become unstable if too many ins and outs happened within a given amount of time. When this happened the current ship traveling through the wormhole is destroyed!
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:31:00 - [1094] Darkdood, all that will only increase teh hold that a large alliance could maintain on WH space. I think the piont of WH space is to allow exploration and small corps a chance at the pie.
Zhora Six	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:38:00 - [1095] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Darkdood, all that will only increase teh hold that a large alliance could maintain on WH space. I think the piont of WH space is to allow exploration and small corps a chance at the pie. Right, except that it's not pie, it's gateaux.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:48:00 - [1096] Originally by: Xailia Originally by: War Fairy K-space WHs only lead to W-space. Prism X has left that as a possibility though: Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm. Thinking on this a bit. Yeah there could be rare K-K wormholes. Maybe at launch maybe in the future. We don't have enough info.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:49:00 - [1097] Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder you could also make wormholes become unstable if too many ins and outs happened within a given amount of time. When this happened the current ship traveling through the wormhole is destroyed! This makes it easier to crash WHs. Go really fast with a shuttle.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:50:00 - [1098] Originally by: JimBob Leeroy Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Ceist Mashal Excited for this! My question is if the W-spaces will have WH(wormhole) entrances from to seperate sovereignties? For instance; an entrance in amarr space and an entrance in gallente space leading to the same W-space. That is totally possible. You could even get that exact effect without any entry into wormhole space! And that is in no way bound to empire2empire type of connections, just more likely than empire2nullsec for example. Thank you. So noted.
Shushan Kadesh	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:55:00 - [1099] An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:56:00 - [1100] Originally by: Raymon James 1) the Average wormhole would only fit an orca (meaning half the time it would not fit) What numbers are you using? An orca is 250,000,000 kg. A rokh is 105,300,00 kg. If the "average" worm hole is 2 battleships then so much for exploring with friends. It sounds like you're low-balling. Quote: it takes an average of just under 6 hours a day to get a given wormhole to link back to the Forge with a wormhole big enough to allow an orca Why are you limiting it to The Forge? It's much quicker to get out anywhere in Empire and then fly to The Forge.

War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:57:00 - [1101] Originally by: Shushan Kadesh An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space. THIS!
Kal Shakai Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:58:00 - [1102] Edited by: Kal Shakai on 28/01/2009 19:58:32 I really wish they had made the wormhole network more of an "Expedition to the North Pole" type of environment. You go into the wormhole network and spend months trying to find the back systems and such. You may even have to wait for the summer "thaw" to get back out. Unfortunately, it looks more like most of the network will be attached to known space. If I had designed it I might have it look like the following. The deeper you get into the network, the more lucrative it becomes and the harder it is to find your way out. Wormhole Type K1 : Spawns random connection to 1.0 - 0.5 K-Space Wormhole Type K2 : Spawns random connection to 0.4 - 0.1 K-Space Wormhole Type K3 : Spawns random connection to 0.0 K-Space Wormhole Type W1 : Spawns random connection to W-Space A, W-Space B, W-Space C or W-Space D Wormhole Type W2 : Spawns random connection to W-Space A, W-Space B, W-Space C, W-Space D or W-Space E Wormhole Type W3 : Spawns random connection to W-Space D, W-Space E or W-Space F Wormhole Type W4 : Spawns random connection to W-Space E, W-Space F or W-Space G Wormhole Type W5 : Spawns random connection to W-Space F or W-Space G W-Space A: Always has a Wormhole Type K1 and a Wormhole Type W1 W-Space B: Always has a Wormhole Type K2 and a Wormhole Type W1 W-Space C: Always has a Wormhole Type K3 and a Wormhole Type W1 W-Space D: Always has a Wormhole Type W2 W-Space E: Always has a Wormhole Type W3 W-Space F: Always has a Wormhole Type W4 W-Space G: Always has a Wormhole Type W5 ~450 of W-Space A, B and C Wormhole Type K1 -> W-Space A : ~8 per empire region Wormhole Type K2 -> W-Space B : ~2 per empire region Wormhole Type K3 -> W-Space C : ~10 per null-sec region W-Space D: ~1500 W-Space E: ~450 W-Space F: ~85 W-Space G: ~15
Geezelbub	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:01:00 - [1103] Yeah we need ship building and moon mining super caps in W space........ Crap, gate camp strategies....roving gangs of griefers, death stars. The Alliances and big 0,0 corps already have all that throughout 0,0. and what a lovely place it is. And yes I have been there, and still sneak in to some NPC 0,0 stations to do research on BPO's. Exciting...at times..fun?? not very. But silly me, I try to support myself doing positive thing s in the game. Dominate, kill, kill, kill. Is that all this game is to so many of you? If the only fun you get out of this is spoiling the fun of others, you might possibly consider seeking some professional help. and now we have guys whining they can't get SOV in the new W space......lol
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:13:00 - [1104] I have to say I'm kinda fond of the idea of an evil pirate corp setting up base in one of these systems and bringing terror wherever the exit wormhole opens up. Reminds me of some crappy SF stories where terrors lie in the void and one day this wormhole comes to earth.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:17:00 - [1105] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Granmethedon III It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only. Yes it has, but as I see it that would go against the core design. Although everything is mutable that would be a huge change that should not be made for that express purpose alone. It should be a reaction to a core mechanics change, it would require the answer to the question of "Why do we want wormhole space?" to change. Not a possibly exploitative mechanic surfacing. That being said, the code architecture is not done in such a draconic manner that it's impossible to switch. We might even, possibly at some point, maybe, i wish i had more words to indicate utter uncertainty, have two kinds of worm holes. 1-Way and 2-Way. Hell, we could probably put a permanent wormhole somewhere that would simple throw you out the exit of a random, already existing wormhole. What I'm trying to say is: Impossible is what we put on our cereal in the morning. I quite like that idea. What seems certain is CCP are leaving their options wide open to tweak and adjust the worm hole mechanic as required. Can a dev explain what information a located wormhole will provide? Will it offer any indication of its destination, the mass remaining on it or its life span? C.
Rosur Gallente Infestation.	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:18:00 - [1106] Originally by: Shushan Kadesh An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space. Yea this shouldnt be allowed. May be theres a skill for useing the wormholes (each lvl gives u more info on them and what sort of sytem u end up in) which is not allowed on trail accounts.
Malen Nenokal Eden Federal Recon	Posted - 2009.01.28 20:24:00 - [1107] Any estimate on when we can see this on sisi?
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:16:00 - [1108] My money's on the players. Always on the players.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:18:00 - [1109] pictures ?
Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:23:00 - [1110] Edited by: Wedgetail on 28/01/2009 21:29:47 'grats ccp for coming up with a system that allows small alliances and corporations/groups to be able to effectively match the larger ones both in combat and industry. This new wormhole system opens up entirely new possibilities for covert warfare in eve and tbh that's something I've been looking forward to for a long time. I am dissapointed that black ops can't operate thier jump systems into or out of the new systems but i can understand why the restriction is in place. Pity that the black ops is still missing a 'role' being 'able' to do most things but not really able to perform any task well enough to be useful yet. I was hoping they had been given the ability to operate thier drives in the new systems to offset this fact to a point but can't have everything I spose :) again well done looking forward getting lost in space >=).

Gate Bait	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:37:00 - [1111] Question: Earlier responses motioned big corps and small corps entering worm wholes to explore and partake of the risks/rewards contained within. My question: Is the lower end of this game mechanic being designed so that solo/individual player can partake of it or is there some minimum number of players in a gang ôTargetö your shooting for? Thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide.
Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:43:00 - [1112] Definately an option for solo players but probably more lucrative for groups because of the required logistics is my take so far...
Williamat Centaurus Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:45:00 - [1113] hmmmm, no one has yet asked about what "cataclysmic event" is going to open up wormholes all over the entire cluster! What a nasty power that is going to be released to cause such a masive change to nature! Will stations get destroyed? Some of our gates? Moons? Planets maybe?? Fleets of ships? The very nature and balance of the 4 superpowers of EVE? That would be fun! According to dictionary.com: ûnoun 1. any violent upheaval, esp. one of a social or political nature. 2. Physical Geography. a sudden and violent physical action producing changes in the earth's surface. 3. an extensive flood; deluge.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:51:00 - [1114] someone has suggested minimum of 5 toons. U could have what i call caravans that is they just float in and out of wspace randomly ( im thinking amarr + gal ships would be good for this with drones ammo etc) Anything that allows 00 alliances more control is bad, however if 2500 becomes to cramped ccp can just add more wsystems was suggested in dev blog once some limitations over come it could be scaled to 10000 or more. The mass limitations are another way to prevent large blobs shifting through, tho i can if setup right pvp-pve groups setting up in wspace. Unfuelled poses will become common place so small poses with basic moon mining, ship hanger and corp hanger arrays are likley. So what do u do pos is offline u have some fuel well fire it up bub cause u an become the new owner of an abandoned pos As far as collapsing perhaps a 5 minute limit between going back and forward thro a wormhole similiar to 30 second undock now. But what is wrong with collapsing and redoing a Wspace link they will expire after a time anyway The risk is to u collapse it and the system links with a new red system and they stream through i can see rival groups getting stuck in same system
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:52:00 - [1115] Originally by: Williamat Centaurus hmmmm, no one has yet asked about what "cataclysmic event" is going to open up wormholes all over the entire cluster! What a nasty power that is going to be released to cause such a masive change to nature! Will stations get destroyed? Some of our gates? Moons? Planets maybe?? Fleets of ships? The very nature and balance of the 4 superpowers of EVE? That would be fun! According to dictionary.com: ûnoun 1. any violent upheaval, esp. one of a social or political nature. 2. Physical Geography. a sudden and violent physical action producing changes in the earth's surface. 3. an extensive flood; deluge. will most likley be the change to faction warfare during the downtime concord got blown up and all the little factions went pew pew, cadleri invaded calderi prime Im also interested in this new NPC type are they jove ships or a new enemy or a combination of existing factions simply going in and out of random wormholes.
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 21:55:00 - [1116] Originally by: ollobrains2 Unfuelled poses will become common place so small poses with basic moon mining, ship hanger and corp hanger arrays are likley. So what do u do pos is offline u have some fuel well fire it up bub cause u an become the new owner of an abandoned pos If only this were possible. Unfortunately, as long as the tower is anchored, it's the property of the owner. Nothing short of an owner unanchoring it, or someone else destroying it, will change that. It would be wonderful if an unfueled tower had a timer where it would lose it's anchorage. Even if we're talking a month (like containers that are not accessed). Seems odd that you can blow it up, but can't just cut a hole in the side and go in and claim it with minimal damage.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.28 22:00:00 - [1117] once it goes into reinforced and that fuel ends isnt it then claimable by anyone if not well blow it up i guess scoop the modules
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.28 22:12:00 - [1118] Originally by: Johli Hard to read 30 pages, but a small question (with a good possibility it having been asked before) If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted? shameless bump for answers.
jongalt	Posted - 2009.01.28 22:33:00 - [1119] Originally by: Williamat Centaurus hmmmm, no one has yet asked about what "cataclysmic event" is going to open up wormholes all over the entire cluster! What a nasty power that is going to be released to cause such a masive change to nature! i bet the "event" is related to the bright star that appeared (and then disappeared) last year....
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 22:34:00 - [1120] Originally by: ollobrains2 once it goes into reinforced and that fuel ends isnt it then claimable by anyone if not well blow it up i guess scoop the modules no.. It has to be blown up, only then can the modules be scooped. really kind of silly, but a whole load better than before when EVERYTHING had to be blown up. Still, it's the blowing up part that sucks, especially in W-Space with limited firepower.

An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.28 22:42:00 - [1121] Originally by: Johli Originally by: Johli Hard to read 30 pages, but a small question (with a good possibility it having been asked before) If you get killed in W space, by other players or NPCs or whatever, and you get the lossmail, how would it work? It would obviously not have a system name, so how could it be posted? Could it be posted? shameless bump for answers. While it hasn't been answered, the most likely answer is the mail will say System: Unknown.
Blastil	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:04:00 - [1122] Originally by: ollobrains2 Im also interested in this new NPC type are they jove ships or a new enemy or a combination of existing factions simply going in and out of random wormholes. Our corp is betting that the eve-gate will explode and let us back into the milky way galaxy and the people we pew pew will be Terrans.
Somal Thunder Intergalactic Peace Organization	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:08:00 - [1123] Will wormholes ever connect two reachable systems or just reachable <-> unreachable systems?
Lisaveta Ivanovna	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:10:00 - [1124] Edited by: Lisaveta Ivanovna on 28/01/2009 23:12:10 I've spent a better part of the afternoon reading through 29 pages of comments and am super excited about this patch now! Could someone please let us know what specifically happens to the 4 sensor types of the 4 probe types? I have not seen an answer to that except for "removing the need for multiple probe types" in the original dev blog. Does that mean they will be removed completely, or that they are just not necessary when searching for wormholes? I love the skill and complex nature of probing out gas clouds etc. Will these mechanics all be replaced with a 99 au probe that tells you where all the stuff is based on your skill? Probably not, but anything in that direction would kind of be ******ed IMHO. Once again, it cracks me up to hear all the ppl here threatening to cancel their subscription everytime something isn't as they want it. Learn to voice your opinion in more productive ways, lol. The terrible 2's were bad enough for your parents to deal with than to make us have to go through it as well. edit: lol. I can't believe that word was censored (a word for mentally challenged and slow that starts with r-e-t-a-r)
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:10:00 - [1125] Originally by: Blastil Originally by: ollobrains2 Im also interested in this new NPC type are they jove ships or a new enemy or a combination of existing factions simply going in and out of random wormholes. Our corp is betting that the eve-gate will explode and let us back into the milky way galaxy and the people we pew pew will be Terrans. That would be the Big Yellow Bus corp?
Blastil	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:18:00 - [1126] Edited by: Blastil on 28/01/2009 23:19:05 Originally by: Kleb Siella Originally by: Blastil Originally by: ollobrains2 Im also interested in this new NPC type are they jove ships or a new enemy or a combination of existing factions simply going in and out of random wormholes. Our corp is betting that the eve-gate will explode and let us back into the milky way galaxy and the people we pew pew will be Terrans. That would be the Big Yellow Bus corp? There was a news article about the time the EVE gate started acting up about that new star thing. They placed the star at 3.something million light years away and they said that that how many years since the eve gate collapse that that is how many years it would take for light to travel from the Milky Way to the EVE galaxy. It's not terribly unlikely. In fact, its more likely that these wormholes would lead us to the milky way rather than some brand new galaxy, that just hapens to have people in it. And I doubt CCP is going to make up aliens for us to fight, since they have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN that jove are as close as we get. Edit: CCP has dropped other big hints that T3 will be 'Ancient Earth Tech'
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:22:00 - [1127] Originally by: Somal Thunder Will wormholes ever connect two reachable systems or just reachable <-> unreachable systems? You can have wormholes between two regular K-Systems, but they will be far less likely than a wormhole to an unknown W-System.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:31:00 - [1128] actually k systems wont be direct link it would most likley be k system - link - wsystem - link - k system So u would need to go into w space and hope that 2 wormholes stay open long enough to come back. But if u collapsed and reappeared enough wormholes u could over time eventualy find youre way back to a region or empire and then get back out that way
Clansworth Blackwater USA Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:42:00 - [1129] Originally by: Blastil There was a news article about the time the EVE gate started acting up about that new star thing. They placed the star at 3.something million light years away and they said that that how many years since the eve gate collapse that that is how many years it would take for light to travel from the Milky Way to the EVE galaxy. It's not terribly unlikely. In fact, its more likely that these wormholes would lead us to the milky way rather than some brand new galaxy, that just hapens to have people in it. And I doubt CCP is going to make up aliens for us to fight, since they have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN that jove are as close as we get. Edit: CCP has dropped other big hints that T3 will be 'Ancient Earth Tech' I think it's much more likely that, while T3 will be based on 'ancient earth tech', it would be from New Eden, as leftovers long lost from before EvE's collapse. I think, if nothing else, an event in the Milky way significant enough to cause that bright of an image that far away would be something that the Milky Way is not going to recover from.. ;-) More likely, I'd just say this was a further breakdown of the Eve Gate, splintering into small wormholes within the New Eden Galaxy, connecting to systems since lost to us.
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.28 23:49:00 - [1130] Originally by: CCP Prism X On a personal note: I'm a player as well man. I've been an MMO player for much longer than I've been an MMO developer. And I'd have to have been playing some.. apocryphal.. MMOs to think that devs will always out-think players. I would also have to have zero programming experience. That being the case, given that if there is any way to game your design then it will be found in relatively short order and pushed to the bleeding limit, and given that it's politically much easier to add capabilities than to nerf existing abilities, one should exercise an "abundance of caution" and take baby steps. You can always add POS capability, or new POS-like features, at a later date, once everyone has more experience with the environment. I would point out that if W-space rapidly becomes "settled", then it is an epic fail from a game design perspective -- at best, it is just a different flavor of 0.0. To my mind, W-space should be totally different from Empire or 0.0, it should have a nomadic flair to it. Life in W-space should be like life in the Battlestar Galactica universe, where small ragtag bands hit a star system, sc**** what they can, and move on before the Cylons blow them into plasma. So at first, the players should have nothing in terms of infrastructure other than the ships on their backs, so to speak. Later, based on demand from the players, Empire corps could produce new structures that can survive in the unique environment of W-space and allow longer, but still temporary, residency. Consider a mini-POS structure: it has a shield, can mine, and lets people refit ships -- and that's it. It comes pre-fueled, and lasts a week or two, with the shield slowly degrading due to the unique radiation inundating W-Space. When the shield goes down (and it can be shot by players and npcs, of course), it goes into reinforced and the reactor starts going critical and will blow it up sometime in the next 12-24 hours (with no visible timer, so nobody knows exactly when). The shield should be killable by a gang that can enter using an average-sized wormhole. Now that's living on the edge. You can bring a few of these mini-POS's with you on your expedition, and "pitch your tent" on a juicy moon, but you're very vulnerable to getting dislodged if someone decides to take you on. But then your attackers need to anchor their tent after yours is blown up, and if you're still around, maybe you can stop them. Or maybe it'll be cheaper for you to pay them to go away? Now, maybe there's some aspect of the new game-mechanics that we haven't been told about that renders all the emo from myself and others moot. But if that's so, it's effectively security by obscurity, which we all know is a bad idea. Personally, I really don't want to be saying "I told you so" a few months from now.

Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:00:00 - [1131] If the POS 'problem' is really be interpreted as invincible POSes, I'd like to point out that nothing in this thread says you couldn't move dreads into the contested system, and keep cycling WHs until you have enough to take down a deathstar (which really isn't all that many). What we don't want to see if w-space POSes that are so weak a roaming gang (5-10 BS) can clean a system in an evening just to grief. Besides, odds are any sufficiently valuable moon will be one, two, or three layers deep in w-space (as others have mentioned, logistical nigh-impossibility). If someone wants to setup a POS like that, I just hope when they get lost and offline someone else can scoop/reuse them.
Sigras	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:07:00 - [1132] how about this idea for fixing the in out workaround: if a WH collapses because it ran out of mass, the system runs a check; If the WH appeared less than X hours ago, no other WH appears in the system until X hours has passed. This would allow people the peace of mind of knowing they're not going to be stuck in a system for days on end, but at the same time, since nobody really knows what X is, this would severely hamper efforts to in out span the WH to get a respawn
Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:08:00 - [1133] Edited by: Wedgetail on 29/01/2009 00:09:41 IMO the pos towers are going to end up behaving like the eve colonies did post collapse of the gate; is a simmilar scenario; everyone moves in makes a home; supply is cut off; many colonies fail. only the clever are going to be able to make a home in w space the rest will likely be nomadic or face constantly failing towers etc. the wormholes are still large enough to get firepower through (again if your clever) but taking out an active pos would be costly if your plans aren't good. It won't be anything like the space we know now, there won't be any havens or easy way back to empire if something goes wrong, indeed even existing alliance fortresses aren't safe when wormholes are opening under thier cyno jammers and suddenly "hey enemy capitals in system" considering the best of wormholes can handle a mother ship's mass won't take much for a skilled group to bring down the cyno jammer and jump in help to finish the job. because of factors like that there's no real need not to allow POS towers etc in W space yes it'll be the same but everything else is different, there's gotta be some way to establish a base of operations for groups in W space and POS towers are something everyone's familliar with. even nomad fleets have a port of call somewhere or a place they return to.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:16:00 - [1134] Originally by: ollobrains2 actually k systems wont be direct link it would most likley be k system - link - wsystem - link - k system So u would need to go into w space and hope that 2 wormholes stay open long enough to come back. But if u collapsed and reappeared enough wormholes u could over time eventualy find youre way back to a region or empire and then get back out that way Actually, Originally by: CCP Prism X I just said there would be a possibility K<->K connections. I emphasize possibility to ensure that people don't expect that to be the norm.
Shushan Kadesh	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:23:00 - [1135] Originally by: Shushan Kadesh An important question - will you be allowing trail accounts to access the wormholes? If so, it really eliminates the risk since if I find a hole, I can just make a trial account and send it through to peek on the other side - and if in a wormhole system with a trail account, I can just pop the noob through all the exit holes I find until I find one leading back to highsec or to my desired 0.0 region without worrying about running into enemy space. I'd really like to see this addressed. This would just be an open door for macros if left untouched.
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:28:00 - [1136] If the wormholes are so random, then I presume it will be possible reach Jove space through them...
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:32:00 - [1137] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Besides, odds are any sufficiently valuable moon will be one, two, or three layers deep in w-space (as others have mentioned, logistical nigh-impossibility). If someone wants to setup a POS like that, I just hope when they get lost and offline someone else can scoop/reuse them. W-space operations will be very much give and take as opposed to something like POS moon mining which, except the fueling logistics, is just "take". I don't find it unreasonable to assume for me to be ditching numerous small POS in W-space. If I can scoot out, say, 250 mil worth of equip and fly back out with, say, 1 billion, I don't consider that an unfair trade-off at all. It sounds like, given that these new guys will be NPCs, a marauder loaded into an ORCA with some support craft may be a new pillage-crew. Which brings about another question: I wonder if this'll see the birth of "marauder corps". There are mission running corps, but they're kinda repetitive, and anyone can solo most missions, and you cant center a corp around roaming belts killing NPCs. I imagine a "marauder" (or raid) corp would be made up of a 'Captain' in some battleship, and an Orca loaded with a HAC and a bunch of Assfrigs/Inties/Whatever, and a ton of ammo. The group would wait in High/low/0.0 for an appropriate wormhole with a bunch of people in shuttles (or pods if allowed!) and jump everyone through. Spend a day or however long it takes hunting NPCs for T3 loot to fill the orca, then the ships load back up into the orca ship bay and back into shuttles, then scout out a suitable exit. Once found, you jump back through, sell and split the loot, rinse, repeat. Think it could be quite a dynamic and fun environment, with a bit more bite than waiting for a scanner countdown to tick down in exploration. I am curious to know if it's possible to 'lock down' a W-system by cycling wormholes till you end up with a max possible amount of wormholes connected to a current system, all of which are one-way out of the system. Methinks DT would fix that though.
Kal Shakai Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:38:00 - [1138] Originally by: Dal Deinvisu Besides, odds are any sufficiently valuable moon will be one, two, or three layers deep in w-space (as others have mentioned, logistical nigh-impossibility). If someone wants to setup a POS like that, I just hope when they get lost and offline someone else can scoop/reuse them. Well, let's hope so. However, we have this on page 5 indicating no layers: Originally by: CCP Whisper What happens when the wormhole closes behind you? You need to scan down a wormhole which leads back to known space. Every wormhole system will have a wormhole that leads you back to known space. You just need to find it. Then we get on page 24 a contradictory statement. Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Arkady Sadik Oh. So you can't be "lost in wormhole space" in the sense that the only wormhole from your current system leads to other wormhole space? In the easier reaches of W-space, no. In the harder, more profitable areas, this is entirely possible and indeed fairly likely. So, the question becomes, "How layered will the wormhole network be?". I propose that it should be up to 5 layers deep to make things truly epic from an exploration perspective. I am just dying to see CCP Greyscale's promised blog.
Leumas Kharzim Amarr Intaki Armaments	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:47:00 - [1139] Originally by: Lisaveta Ivanovna Could someone please let us know what specifically happens to the 4 sensor types of the 4 probe types? I have not seen an answer to that except for "removing the need for multiple probe types" in the original dev blog. Does that mean they will be removed completely, or that they are just not necessary when searching for wormholes? Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Des Jardin ... 2. What happens to old launchers, implants, rigs, probes, etc.? ... ... 2) Rigs, implants and ship bonuses will hopefully be repurposed to make them roughly as useful as they are now. Launchers and probes (and their blueprints) are being automatically converted to the new types. ...
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:48:00 - [1140] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Granmethedon III It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only. Yes it has, but as I see it that would go against the core design. Although everything is mutable that would be a huge change that should not be made for that express purpose alone. It should be a reaction to a core mechanics change, it would require the answer to the question of "Why do we want wormhole space?" to change. Not a possibly exploitative mechanic surfacing. If 1-way travel goes against the core design, that basically suggests the core design reason for wormhole space is to act as a new endgame. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, but its the only way your statement makes sense to me. Which says that despite everything said, people have a hard time really believing that the only function of 2-way travel is permanent long term settlement. I'll be the first to say that I'm down for an even harder and brutal endgame than our current Space Empire MegaBlocs circlejerk, but it wouldn't make much sense to add it here and now. Especially given that only a minority of the player base is competing in the current endgame. So to answer your question.. "Why do we want wormhole space?" Wormhole space is a perfect stepping stone to for those who want something more lucrative and challenging than lowsec, but easier to enter than alliance-held territory. Assuming 1-way travel: - it basically prevents blob and capital warfare - it forces the expedition to end sometime and make the group return to normal space after X months - it keeps turnover rate of moons and systems high, keeping the barrier to entry for future gamers low - its easy to find an entrance, even in high sec: antithesis of choke points - acclimates people to normal 0.0 space by frequently dumping them into it The only way this is possible is if: - permanent settlement is impossible - the rewards level off as supply and demand adjust, and the final equilibrium point doesn't render normal 0.0 flaccid and lame The second point I'm not worried about. The NPC stuff and t3 materials can't be controlled and price fixed. And the high rewards of high end moon mining will drop because the total number of suppliers will increase by two magnitudes - breaking the resource stranglehold we have today. Anyhow, that's my view and I don't think CCP will disagree on the whole stepping stone thing based on all that has been said. Which leaves the point of contention as to what impact 2-way travel really has in the long term.

Masazak	Posted - 2009.01.29 00:54:00 - [1141] Looking awesome, thanks. BUT, Like (many?) others I have been training the certificate for Wormhole manipulator pending this expansion. After reading this thread it is now painfully obvious that it has no bearing or use for wormholes. Can the certificate be renamed to be a little less misleading? Maybe something like Jump drive specialist or at least removing/replacing wormhole from its name? Thanks Mas
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.29 01:33:00 - [1142] Edited by: JimBob Leeroy on 29/01/2009 01:37:53 Originally by: Masazak Looking awesome, thanks. BUT, Like (many?) others I have been training the certificate for Wormhole manipulator pending this expansion. After reading this thread it is now painfully obvious that it has no bearing or use for wormholes. Can the certificate be renamed to be a little less misleading? Maybe something like Jump drive specialist or at least removing/replacing wormhole from its name? Thanks Mas but it is for wormholes, the one created by jump portals
Keith F Caldari United ALT Forces	Posted - 2009.01.29 01:35:00 - [1143] it may already have been posted/answered but a question or 2-3 aoccured to me. 1, as i see it once a w-space location runs out of either time or allocated mass that entrance/exit ends. effectivly traping pilot inside unti he finds another exit. Is this exit bi directional for that pilot (ie he can go thru and see where it goes, then return to get all his accumulated loot etc) or does it allow him exit only. 2 if that w-space times out and he is the LAST person in it and he logs off, does he return to same place days later after his xmas holidays etc, this could lead to lots of w-space sites being left hanging in the database if a noob comes thru and never logs back into game.
Syberbolt8 Gallente Gen Tec Arcos Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.29 01:42:00 - [1144] Edited by: Syberbolt8 on 29/01/2009 01:52:03 Originally by: Keith F it may already have been posted/answered but a question or 2-3 aoccured to me. 1, as i see it once a w-space location runs out of either time or allocated mass that entrance/exit ends. effectivly traping pilot inside unti he finds another exit. Is this exit bi directional for that pilot (ie he can go thru and see where it goes, then return to get all his accumulated loot etc) or does it allow him exit only. 2 if that w-space times out and he is the LAST person in it and he logs off, does he return to same place days later after his xmas holidays etc, this could lead to lots of w-space sites being left hanging in the database if a noob comes thru and never logs back into game. W-space isn't an instance, its always there, its just the connections that move not the system. so loging out and back in have no effect on this. And for now, yes the exit is bi-directional
Arritha Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.29 01:53:00 - [1145] I see a lot of abandoned POS building up in these new systems. While a small pos can be killed easily with a few BS, a medium becomes more difficult, and a large requires a real fleet of ships (or capitals). Who is going to be able to clear a large abandoned pos off a r64 moon?
Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.29 02:09:00 - [1146] Originally by: Arritha I see a lot of abandoned POS building up in these new systems. While a small pos can be killed easily with a few BS, a medium becomes more difficult, and a large requires a real fleet of ships (or capitals). Who is going to be able to clear a large abandoned pos off a r64 moon? Would be alot better to capture it instead
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.29 02:54:00 - [1147] Originally by: Arritha I see a lot of abandoned POS building up in these new systems. While a small pos can be killed easily with a few BS, a medium becomes more difficult, and a large requires a real fleet of ships (or capitals). Who is going to be able to clear a large abandoned pos off a r64 moon? An offline abandoned POS is pretty annoying, but its not impossible provided you use lasers or something. Avoiding a POS graveyard isn't a real issue, because that happens in lowsec, empire and 0.0 too. The question is: Why do offline POS have full HP? They certainly shouldn't have shields at the least.
kim long	Posted - 2009.01.29 03:06:00 - [1148] i was just wondering why not make the biggest wormholes titan accessible, that way the titan and say 10 BS pilots jump out there and stake claim, seems like that would be the most fitting role for a titan anyway, 3 of them transported the entire Jove civilization. ONLY THE BIGGEST WORMHOLES THOUGH. it would give smaller alliences a reason to get their fingers on titans and make the titans useful for once. also, i am talking a VERY VERY VERY rare wormhole, not one you see everyday, the titan should be stuck in the same system for days before it can move on
Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.29 03:15:00 - [1149] for the same reason that blackops and capital jump drives don't function, it defeats the purpose of having an area with such restricted access. a titan can move too much firepower, at this stage the largest wormholes can move a mothership, that's plenty for the kind of play styles being predicted in these sections of space. and personally if they're not gonna give the black ops something to excel at the titan's not gonna have much luck :( .
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.29 03:24:00 - [1150] do people not realize that putting up a pos would last as long as the fuel you came with (since there are no ice belts in Wormhole space)? Also, if you leave the system, you have a 1/10,000 chance of returning to the same system so the chances of someone setting up a deathstar and mining moons would either be for naught, or for a very limited span of time

Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.29 03:27:00 - [1151] Originally by: Infinion do people not realize that putting up a pos would last as long as the fuel you came with (since there are no ice belts in Wormhole space)? Also, if you leave the system, you have a 1/10,000 chance of returning to the same system so the chances of someone setting up a deathstar and mining moons would either be for naught, or for a very limited span of time that depends
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:00:00 - [1152] Well said. That depends on the details of the final implementation.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:01:00 - [1153] 1/3 of the map is empire-low sec so u have a 1 in 3 chance of landing in non wormhole space if u live there u just find a favourable exit duck out grab some more fuel and go back in
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:04:00 - [1154] Originally by: Rex Lashar Well said. That depends on the details of the final implementation. that wont be known until we get it on sisi to pick it to bits and find bugs
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:13:00 - [1155] Originally by: ollobrains2 1/3 of the map is empire-low sec so u have a 1 in 3 chance of landing in non wormhole space if u live there u just find a favourable exit duck out grab some more fuel and go back in Well there's only so much speculation that we ourselves can make at this point in time. Quite soon after Apocrypha's release will we conclude the effectiveness of permanent residence in a world of ever-changing connections between systems
Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:15:00 - [1156] not only would you need a good exit point but the wormhole would also have to be 'large' enough to support the traffic generated by moving the fuel back through and/or anyhting you may want to bring back.
Oliver Stoned	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:27:00 - [1157] And now for a new form of griefing.... A greifer goes in and out of a wormhole until it closes and traps the explorer inside the Wormhole. Any ideas of how to prevent this? Assigning ownership???
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:36:00 - [1158] Originally by: Oliver Stoned And now for a new form of griefing.... A greifer goes in and out of a wormhole until it closes and traps the explorer inside the Wormhole. Any ideas of how to prevent this? Assigning ownership??? be aware of your surroundings? Besides, if someone is trying to close a wormhole, they have to get the sustained mass below 0 so the person already in the W-system can just use it for the the last time as it collapses. Either that or the griefer will get stuck in there with him. Also, I believe there is more than one wormhole in a W system
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:44:00 - [1159] Originally by: Oliver Stoned And now for a new form of griefing.... A greifer goes in and out of a wormhole until it closes and traps the explorer inside the Wormhole. Any ideas of how to prevent this? Assigning ownership??? Griefing,, lol. I want a bomb-like weapon that lets me disrupt wormhole openings, forcing a new one to spawn elsewhere. So if you fly through for the first time and collapse the hole and trap a lone pilot inside is that griefing too? Or better yet, petition reads "Someone flew into my wormhole and starting stealing my T3 salvage, they're griefing me!" Personally, I want to get stuck in W-space. Know you're going into dangerous territory, expect to get stuck and maybe even die. Breathes a ton of life into being a solo roamer who isn't PvP-averse other than the "encounter enemy gang, die" element.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:48:00 - [1160] i think at first everyone will be in w space so it may get crowded that said this will empty out a lot of 00 space. So ratting, mining and all sorts of fun opportunities will present. So on balance this fits in and will make gate camping a lot less useful encourage more fluid player movement. And ccp can always add more k and w space as required

ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:50:00 - [1161] as far as "griefing" goes if the situation arises for the unprepared player without a scan prober alt or corp mate to assist in a way out then so be it, its balanced if a pvp group pops up near u with an accessible wormhole and start raiding youre space or even 00 far from home and u can get a ship around behind them and clsoe them in hostile kspace or wspace and split the gang it becomes possible to disrupt them as well so balance is maintained
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:56:00 - [1162] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Originally by: Oliver Stoned And now for a new form of griefing.... A greifer goes in and out of a wormhole until it closes and traps the explorer inside the Wormhole. Any ideas of how to prevent this? Assigning ownership??? Griefing,, lol. I want a bomb-like weapon that lets me disrupt wormhole openings, forcing a new one to spawn elsewhere. So if you fly through for the first time and collapse the hole and trap a lone pilot inside is that griefing too? Or better yet, petition reads "Someone flew into my wormhole and starting stealing my T3 salvage, they're griefing me!" *Personally, I want* to get stuck in W-space. Know you're going into dangerous territory, expect to get stuck and maybe even die. Breathes a ton of life into being a solo roamer** who isn't PvP-averse other than the "encounter enemy gang, die" element. this
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.29 04:58:00 - [1163] Originally by: ollobrains2 i think at first everyone will be in w space so it may get crowded that said this will empty out a lot of 00 space. So ratting, mining and all sorts of fun opportunities will present. So on balance this fits in and will make gate camping a lot less useful encourage more fluid player movement. And ccp can always add more k and w space as required Can't really say how crowded it'll get. If 100 different people fly covops/assault frigates through a wormhole in Jita, that one W-space system will be crowded fast. If I take into a wormhole in my distant 0.0 system usually containing one or two people, it's likely that wormhole can be reused by me for days, and unless they are wormhole hunters too, it's likely i'll be the only one using it, and if it's the case the W-system won't link to another system till that current wormhole breaks down (not common, but probably not rare either) then it's likely that system will be very empty .
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.29 05:09:00 - [1164] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg [till that current wormhole breaks down (not common, but probably not rare either) then it's likely that system will be very empty . Assuming you have any idea how long the "time" collapse is long. But when it has this time variable, it may be days, it may be hours, you don't know.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.01.29 05:17:00 - [1165] Originally by: Rex Lashar Originally by: Arritha I see a lot of abandoned POS building up in these new systems. While a small pos can be killed easily with a few BS, a medium becomes more difficult, and a large requires a real fleet of ships (or capitals). Who is going to be able to clear a large abandoned pos off a r64 moon? An offline abandoned POS is pretty annoying, but its not impossible provided you use lasers or something. Avoiding a POS graveyard isn't a real issue, because that happens in lowsec, empire and 0.0 too. The question is: Why do offline POS have full HP? They certainly shouldn't have shields at the least. Easy solution: make abandoned POSes captureable. They should be lifeless and abandoned after all, just in need of new fuel and a new master.
Wedgetail	Posted - 2009.01.29 05:22:00 - [1166] Edited by: Wedgetail on 29/01/2009 05:22:33 Maybe W-space specific control towers can be introduced; towers that can only be operational within W space and can be conquered, this means standard towers in K space remain as they are and still allow for unused W space stations to be captured.
Miss Moonwych	Posted - 2009.01.29 05:27:00 - [1167] Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 29/01/2009 06:56:16 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Cailais "Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions". Clearly you could then create a mobile 'bookmark' of sorts to manouveur a fleet using this process. So, could anything be implemented to allow such movement without the use of probes? You can't warp to probes, and you can't scan for them either. Otherwise making insanely deep-space bookmarks would be very easy. How far (off-plane) can you warp/position the probes? 4 AU? 100 AU? or 1000AU? Is there a limit? And is it limited by the position of your ship? Can you warp probes to bookmarks? And are there limits to that? Can our precious (off-plane) BMs still be used? Can multiple probes be warped to different bookmarks/positions at the same time? For example: deploy 20 probes in under 1 or 2 minutes to a set of predetermined locations? Regards, M.M.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 05:36:00 - [1168] im guessing range on scan probes will depend on skills but perhaps more range will equal less accuracy similiar to the 4 probe types now but the skills might just influence the accuracy and strength of the thing at range. Perhaps each skill level might correspond to a max skill otu to 1000 au max ( biggest systems in eve are less than 1000au)
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.29 05:39:00 - [1169] i could not see how stealing loot and salvage in W-space could be grieving, now to scan out a mission that is basically grieving since he can not defend it., but that is for another topic.collapsing a worm hole so as to trap you and him in there is piracy not grieving, to collapse it just to cause him grief would be. this will be 0.0, so expect many to go at it as you would a bad neighborhood at night with no cops around. some will be honest, some will rob you, some will **** you, and some will just screw with you for fun.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:34:00 - [1170] it really just represents the wider eve. Look theres gunna be peeps out there getting trapped darwin evolution will eventually force them to take someone or a whole corp of probers and a pos with ship storage - if the system goes in as is i could see small groups of 10-20 peeps living and operating exclusivly out of wspace- alts could be used to simply collapse unnecessary or unwnated links put back in empire once an opening found just removing them to go back in with supplies etc or small groups of allied wormhole corps setting blues with each other and if u made enough links with small corps u could probably link up quite often either via links in k space or direct or indirect wspace linkages. considering high and low sec make up 45% of all ksystems we are looking at half of kspace linking wormholes being directly into station areas where resupplies could be gathered and w-holes collapsed before anyone found em i can see it being a bit of a draw out logitics effort and ship losses might be high but rewards could also be high. Will require a new approach but one i think that might work

ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 06:39:00 - [1171] Originally by: JimBob Leeroy i could not see how stealing loot and salvage in W-space could be grieving, now to scan out a mission that is basically grieving since he can not defend it., but that is for another topic.collapsing a worm hole so as to trap you and him in there is piracy not grieving, to collapse it just to cause him grief would be. this will be 0.0, so expect many to go at it as you would a bad neighborhood at night with no cops around. some will be honest, some will rob you, some will **** you, and some will just screw with you for fun. it might be possible to live out of an cov ops ship with salvage and probes but it would be probably fairly boring i still think a corp or small alliance that basically has wide ranging territory utilises links perhaps they might have 5-10 bases of operation. If someone found the link they could yell ok its open get resupplies in here etc. U will need probably peeps with both combat and scan skills a pos to operate out of, the ability to collapse wormholes perhaps with alts or thro safe space links. This would suit roaming players well with a good backbone to support a few poses over the long term
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.29 07:20:00 - [1172] Originally by: ollobrains2 1/3 of the map is empire-low sec so u have a 1 in 3 chance of landing in non wormhole space if u live there u just find a favourable exit duck out grab some more fuel and go back in Unless it has been closed while you are out grabbing that fuel ofc. It is entirely possible that other people might find the hole in those 30 or so minutes your are running around the stations picking up the fuel and use it up. Considering that probing entry level skills might be lowered and skilled probers might be more effective than they are currently.
Macmuelli Gallente Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.29 07:29:00 - [1173] Edited by: Macmuelli on 29/01/2009 07:33:49 The march isnt far away. And a new challenge is waiting. One Question. In future, will it be possible to increase the mass temporary ,which is allowed to travel throught a wormhole, via an science based ship/ profession? Like manipulating the wormhole? Means : It s not possible to prevent it from collapsing. But it would be a way, if the allowed mass which can travel trought is lower then the ship mass. Like an Emergency for the cost s of skills/ sience based datacores, a new profession, a new ship , probally teamwork, and a low timeframe. After such a manipulating of the wormhole, it could be probally collapsing faster as an effect. If u havent take your chance, your are lost. If u are lost in space, u have a chance using it again if someone can manipulate it.
Zoltar Torzoid Gallente Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:14:00 - [1174] hmm, 40 pages, and I've yet to see anyone ask if the NPC's are gonna have bounties, or if the potential for gain is based solely on your ability to safely return to market. While I'd love to have bounty NPC's to shoot at, I can see situations where someone spends 6 months out in W-space ratting for bounties alone in a ship that doesn't have stringent ammo requirements (Any laser boat, Dominix with remote repper) while they train up 4-5 lvl 5 skills in near 100% peace aside from the very occasional exploratory fleet wandering through. I also understand that the rats are to be more intelligent as well, behaving more like a PVP oponent. Does this also mean that more pvp modules will work against them? eg. Warp scram/disruptor, Dampers, tracking disruptor, energy neuts, and ECM jammers? It would stand to reason that if you are going to make them fight you like a pvp opponent, that they'd be susceptible to pvp tactics themselves. I believe most/all of this can be answered without divulging any "content" related info. Also, if the rats are more like a pvp opponent than a standard rat, are we to see fewer rats in an engagement, with higher rewards (possible T2 loot?), with overall higher difficulty due to their inherent danger as a realistic pvp opponent? Just a few questions I've had after reading through this novel. I'd also like to state that I'm probably gonna be one of the people vanishing into W-Space for as long as possible assuming I can earn isk, and not have to leave constantly. Otherwise, I intend to use my transport skills as wisely as possible. heh 10km3 Viator FTW. oh yeah.. this is gonna be pure, unadulterated awesomeness. -Zoltar
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:29:00 - [1175] as far as pos fuel i think the idea of manfuacturable pos pellets would make it easier than trying to move 100 different types of ice types. U just product the required fuel pellet then ship it to wormhole entrance
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.29 08:36:00 - [1176] I had ice on my internet antennae the last three days, so I got to read the dev blog and all 40 pages of commentary in one big infodump chunk. My reaction: WIN WIN WIN! Also, win. There's something I love about this game design that nobody else has mentioned. I've been a salvager (in the broad sense, not just the new fashion of getting broken wreck bits) for as long as I've played this game, and in recent years various mechanics have made it harder and harder to find salvageable goodies. The way I see it, the logistical problems in wormhole systems will encourage, even require, players to be stashing ships and cans at all sorts of "safe" spots in wormhole systems. Better yet, the shifting wormholes will result in enormous amounts of this stuff getting permanently abandoned. This will be a freakin' bonananza for a salvager like me. Stuff to look for, yay! Treasure adrift in space! Yarr! Getting it home again? Yeah, that's going to be a trick and a half. But fun. I'll be living in my cloaked blockade runners. This gets two thumbs way up from Ironfleet Towing And Salvage. Jet cans and mission salvage were getting old, and there aren't many lost ships out there in stale safespots any more. However, I do have some suggestions from the salvager perspective, especially as the probe system is revamped. 1) It's important for players to have the ability to make good safe spots. Not perfect, not uber-deep, but very hard to find with the new probing system. As long as I have been playing, the mechanics for making very deep safes have been contracting, and the mechanics for finding them have been getting easier. These days, nobody leaves anything of value at a safe spot for more than a few minutes. Given the incredibly hard logistics in wormhole space, better safe spots will add a huge amount to the fun factor. 2) I said good safes, not impossible ones. Obviously, it should take effort to create a really good safe, and even more effort to find them. 3) It's time to relax the garbage-cleanup routine. Currently, anchored cans go poof if not accessed for a set period of time. That's database-friendly, and essential. However, when Prism-X was charged with putting in the cleanup routine, there was an ENORMOUS amount of stale canned anchored loot all over New Eden. The salvaging community begged for a two-step cleanup routine, which would unanchor the stale cans on the first pass and delete them on the second. Prism-X scoffed, for two reasons; one, the database cleanup need was urgent; and two, he didn't want to loose that windfall on the EVE economy. I grumbled at #2, but in hindsight, I understand it. However, now that the DB is nice and clean and shiny, couldn't we institute the two-step cleanup process? Please o please? 4) Can we please be allowed to probe for secure containers? Or at least find them with the directional scanner? It used to be that you could find anchored cans on the directional scanner, and with lot of clever warping, you could break a safe spot by that means alone. An early version of the current probe system had a whole category for containers, but it never worked, and was later removed. Given the logistics in wormhole space, fields of anchored cans are going to be a huge part of the logistics solution for many people. Having those cans be 100% immune to any form of discovery -- as they are in the current mechanics -- is going to destroy a lot of the potential fun. Since the probe system is being overhauled, now is the time to put cargo containers back into the probing system. (If I recall, they were removed because wreck loot in jet cans in missions was making mission probing too easy; surely a way to distinguish between secure cans and jet cans could be found?) I share some of the worries about the probe system changes, but I'm willing to wait until I see it. Meanwhile, I can't wait to hit wormhole space! ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:12:00 - [1177] I really don't like the idea of one-way wormholes. I know they'd solve some issues we've brought up, but at the cost of totally shutting out solo / small-gang explorers and forcing a meta-game on everyone else. With one-way wormholes nobody will use their mains to scout when they can conceivably end up absolutely anywhere with no way to backtrack. You'd need 3-5 alts in shuttles just to scout the wormholes, at a minimum. I don't think this is a good thing.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:28:00 - [1178] Originally by: Kessiaan I really don't like the idea of one-way wormholes. I know they'd solve some issues we've brought up, but at the cost of totally shutting out solo / small-gang explorers and forcing a meta-game on everyone else. With one-way wormholes nobody will use their mains to scout when they can conceivably end up absolutely anywhere with no way to backtrack. You'd need 3-5 alts in shuttles just to scout the wormholes, at a minimum. I don't think this is a good thing. Why is that not a good thing?? Its exploring, adventure and risky, all the facets for some very interesting game-play, if you dont like it than scan out the normal complexes. The more it changes, the less fixed patterns and the more random this wormhole system is going to work the better. The changes of entering the same system should be almost impossible and the exits should be as random as they can be. If you exits into a hostile 0.0 system then go back into the wormhole and close the door behind you so you and go look for another exit to will bring you some where else Its should not be easy ride, its should be hard and exiting
Tibi	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:29:00 - [1179] Edited by: Tibi on 29/01/2009 09:29:12 Originally by: Marlenus 4) Can we please be allowed to probe for secure containers? Or at least find them with the directional scanner? It used to be that you could find anchored cans on the directional scanner, and with lot of clever warping, you could break a safe spot by that means alone. An early version of the current probe system had a whole category for containers, but it never worked, and was later removed. Given the logistics in wormhole space, fields of anchored cans are going to be a huge part of the logistics solution for many people. Having those cans be 100% immune to any form of discovery -- as they are in the current mechanics -- is going to destroy a lot of the potential fun. Since the probe system is being overhauled, now is the time to put cargo containers back into the probing system. (If I recall, they were removed because wreck loot in jet cans in missions was making mission probing too easy; surely a way to distinguish between secure cans and jet cans could be found?) This. Please please consider it ccp :) T.
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:30:00 - [1180] Originally by: Rex Lashar Which says that despite everything said, people have a hard time really believing that the only function of 2-way travel is permanent long term settlement. I was actually assuming that they want to keep WH's bi-directional so that, at least those paying attention, would have reasonable opportunity to turn around and head back out.

Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:32:00 - [1181] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: ollobrains2 1/3 of the map is empire-low sec so u have a 1 in 3 chance of landing in non wormhole space if u live there u just find a favourable exit duck out grab some more fuel and go back in Unless it has been closed while you are out grabbing that fuel ofc. This is one of the weights in favour of current 0.0 power blocks.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:37:00 - [1182] u mgiht find some w systems have 5 links. ccp have said i think all systems will have at least one active link. Prober and combat alts or co operative best bet probes can be reused. I see small groups of permanent and semi permanenet wspace corps actually banding together perhaps poses might become selling points would require trust but small items could be exchanged. perhaps with links to some kspace areas. Some larger alliances might offer blues a space to as far as bigger ones land at outposts restock and go back in
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:39:00 - [1183] i think ccp have said most will be multi directional. Some may be one way.
Lady Ione	Posted - 2009.01.29 09:45:00 - [1184] Edited by: Lady Ione on 29/01/2009 09:45:13 Originally by: ollobrains2 i think ccp have said most will be multi directional. Some may be one way. Nope, they said it might be a possibility for the future. But with SCRUM sure, it might just make it in. Not holding my breath though
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:06:00 - [1185] Originally by: Kleb Siella Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: ollobrains2 1/3 of the map is empire-low sec so u have a 1 in 3 chance of landing in non wormhole space if u live there u just find a favourable exit duck out grab some more fuel and go back in Unless it has been closed while you are out grabbing that fuel ofc. This is one of the weights in favour of current 0.0 power blocks. I would not worry about 0.0 powerblocks. They can't afford to direct a lot of manpower towards wormholes as they need those pilots to hold their current space. Sure, if 0.0 alliance wants he can control some W-Space systems. It's highly unlikely however that it would be willing to direct say 10 pos gunner alts into W-Space system to babysit a dyspo moon, as those 10 alts are needed in whatever part of of the K-Space is in war at that moment. And 0.0 there is always a war somewhere. You just can't spread yourself that thin if you are true territory holding alliance.
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:11:00 - [1186] Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. Ok, i've read most of the post (til yesterday evening GMT+1) but not all, and maybe someone else already/in the meantime came up with that idea, but let me (re)state it: Why only a max-mass and -time attribute on the wormholes? How about a min-time attribute, too? The wormhole would collapse once the mass is used up, but it would not respawn until the min-time timer has run out. Even better yet, disallow any other despawned wormholes to respawn in this particular system until the min-time is over. This would prevent the mis-use of game mechanics to quickly cycle wormholes while (for all but the most unstable WHs) it would still allow to pop in and out of a system for scouting. It may have some griefing potential where malicious players would in-out to lock another pilot in - but I think that that is far minor than the problem at hand (reasons for it: low probability of encounter overall, not profitable).
Zindak	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:19:00 - [1187] Edited by: Zindak on 29/01/2009 10:22:42 Edited by: Zindak on 29/01/2009 10:19:34 Originally by: Kessiaan I really don't like the idea of one-way wormholes. I know they'd solve some issues we've brought up, but at the cost of totally shutting out solo / small-gang explorers and forcing a meta-game on everyone else. With one-way wormholes nobody will use their mains to scout when they can conceivably end up absolutely anywhere with no way to backtrack. You'd need 3-5 alts in shuttles just to scout the wormholes, at a minimum. I don't think this is a good thing. No, you don't need 3-5 alts if wormholes would be one-way. You need people that just started playing Eve Online. It will encourage expedition-teams to hire those people to do the recon with shuttles or frigates. This new profession (wormhole recon) is a good way to earn money for beginners and learn survival techniques, have some adventures, although they are still low-skilled. Critical is that no trial-accounts should be allowed in wormholes (as stated before by other people), or the whole idea of wormholes will be a big joke, being it one-way wormholes or not.
Darth Ninjabadger Caldari m3 Corp BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:24:00 - [1188] Originally by: Zindak Critical is that no trial-accounts should be allowed in wormholes (as stated before by other people), or the whole idea of wormholes will be a big joke, being it one-way wormholes or not. Either Code it so wormholes don't allow trial accounts in or make navigating a wormhole a skill that can't be trained on a trial account. I think this is one of the hurdles that need to be addressed or you will see W-Space completely full of 1 day old chars.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:28:00 - [1189] skills wormhole navigation seems like a good idea on non trial accounts only could just be nav 2-3 to train as pre req So are wormholes now one way only or are they infact 2 way or both ?
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.29 10:33:00 - [1190] Originally by: ollobrains2 So are wormholes now one way only or are they infact 2 way or both ? in the original design: two-way (for scouting, etc.). Some players have brought up the idea of one-way travel. CCP PrismX acknowledged the issue with quickly cycling WHs in-outing and thus collapsing the WH. But we don't know yet how/if they will change the design.

Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.01.29 11:43:00 - [1191] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Edited by: Ahro Thariori on 29/01/2009 10:26:40 Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. This would prevent the mis-use of game mechanics to quickly cycle wormholes while (for all but the most unstable WHs) it would still allow to pop in and out of a system for scouting (unlike 1-way-WHs). It may have some griefing potential where malicious players would in-out to lock another pilot in - but I think that that is far minor than the problem at hand (reasons for this view: low probability of encounter overall, not profitable, no fun in locking someone in if you cant peek what he is doing / how he is suffering. He might even make the profit of his life! ). edit: spelling, clarification So you really don't think that a griefer would enjoy dropping through a wormhole, doing a system scan, seeing an Orca and several hulks in the system and then closing the wormhole? Really? You just griefed close to a billion isk worth of ships, quite possibly for days, for a couple of minutes of virtually risk free effort. If you want to laugh at them then just send your alt through the wormhole in a pod or cloaked frigate before you close it. You seriously think that in a game where people spend hours camping gates just so they can kill a couple of newbies in frigates this wont appeal? I explore at the moment and I reckon about half of the grav sites I find are found by someone else too, that I know about. And grav sites in hi sec are almost worthless at the moment. I mean, sure, if you find a wormhole from deep in Goon or Bob space you'll be unlucky to see hostile players. But from hi/low sec? Unless wormholes are ridiculously hard to find you'll have multiple people finding the same one every day if it's in a modestly busy system. People are going to be really motivated to find them for a while.
Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:15:00 - [1192] Originally by: Strom Nekth So you really don't think that a griefer would enjoy dropping through a wormhole, doing a system scan, seeing an Orca and several hulks in the system and then closing the wormhole? Really? You just griefed close to a billion isk worth of ships, quite possibly for days, for a couple of minutes of virtually risk free effort. If you want to laugh at them then just send your alt through the wormhole in a pod or cloaked frigate before you close it. You seriously think that in a game where people spend hours camping gates just so they can kill a couple of newbies in frigates this wont appeal? Having the WH entrance unguarded is a bad idea when you have a large Mining Op on the other side that wants to get out the way they came. EVE has loads of unconsensual PvP, even in 1.0 HighSec you can get attacked ... so it's time to introduce some unconsensual PvE, the NPCs won't wait fro you - the'll hunt you down (of course only if the AI decides that a victory is possible)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:19:00 - [1193] How I will go about breaking current proposed game designs: One-way gates: I'll always fly in with a 100% expendable alt. Not a trial account, but just an alt. I'm not even going to put my CovOps scout into a system where I can't turn around and leave without scouting it first with a throw away alt. If you allow trial accounts to use worm holes, I'll use them all the time. Don't allow this to happen. It's stupid. Two way wormholes with volume limits: I'll move ships in/out until the unwanted wormholes collapse, either because I want a different one or I want to close one so that targets can't get out or enemies can't get in. How to fix this: just REMOVE the tonnage limitation, and simply have wormholes have a fixed bandwidth for size of ships and a set time for them to exist. Rats that provide bounties in w-space. If this occurs I'll just sink a cloaking ratting ship with an alt deep into w-space, as far as I can go, and just rat for ISK whenever I want, never coming up for air. It's dumb, don't do it. Make SURE that the only way to profit from w-space is to force players to move materials from w-space to k-space and sell/trade them with players. POSes in w-space: Put up a large deathstar tower, and leave 2-3 alts behind to permanently manage it/cultivate wormholes to/from the system. These alts NEVER leave that w-space system and the POS. If they did then the POS would be lost forever, but as long as you can go back/forth through wormholes and are able to consistently return to your POS you can explore wormholes until you find a link to k-space, then exploit that wormhole as much as possible for loot transfer and resupply and then simply open/close other wormholes until another k-space wormhole pops up. Having a dedicated fleet of cyno alts and a few carriers/jump freighters on hand to bring cargo space to the mouth of a wormhole (without going into w-space with the capitals proper) will make it very easy to keep POSes, even massive deathstars, easily fed with absolute safety. With cloaks and cynos cap ships are ensured complete invulnerability, and with a few ships guarding a wormhole with dictor bubbles etc., no one is going to be hassling you from either side while you're moving your supplies and loot. W-space will probably see 100% saturation of all top end w-space resources (moons, particular systems) inside of 12 months from all the largest alliances, if w-space proves worth their time. And if it's worth anything it'll definitely be worth their time. How to solve this issue: DON'T ALLOW POSES in w-space. Carriers and Orcas at a maximum, and that's it. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:35:00 - [1194] Edited by: Ahro Thariori on 29/01/2009 12:43:02 Originally by: Strom Nekth Originally by: Ahro Thariori Edited by: Ahro Thariori on 29/01/2009 10:26:40 Originally by: CCP Prism X At any rate: As it stands the in-out trick will do you a lot of good to dictate connections from W-K and I, for one, dislike that. I am however known to be difficult to the point of malice so you don't need to worry just yet. The team does recognize the issue at hand and is contemplating whether it should be addressed and if so, how. Why only a max-mass and -time attribute on the wormholes? How about a min-time attribute, too? The wormhole would collapse once the mass is used up, but it would not respawn until the min-time timer has run out. Even better yet, disallow any other despawned wormholes to respawn in this particular system until the min-time is over. This would prevent the mis-use of game mechanics to quickly cycle wormholes while (for all but the most unstable WHs) it would still allow to pop in and out of a system for scouting (unlike 1-way-WHs). It may have some griefing potential where malicious players would in-out to lock another pilot in - but I think that that is far minor than the problem at hand (reasons for this view: low probability of encounter overall, not profitable, no fun in locking someone in if you cant peek what he is doing / how he is suffering. He might even make the profit of his life! ). edit: spelling, clarification So you really don't think that a griefer would enjoy dropping through a wormhole, doing a system scan, seeing an Orca and several hulks in the system and then closing the wormhole? Really? You just griefed close to a billion isk worth of ships, quite possibly for days, for a couple of minutes of virtually risk free effort. If you want to laugh at them then just send your alt through the wormhole in a pod or cloaked frigate before you close it. You seriously think that in a game where people spend hours camping gates just so they can kill a couple of newbies in frigates this wont appeal? Yes, I think you are overstating the problem. 1) Taking an Orca into WH-space you better plan for taking it out another way: there simply shouldnt be that many WHs with so much mass-allowance to take an orca in and out (consider how many t2 cruisers that would be). 2) Reading the blog again I would plan on getting "stranded" in WH-space for some time. It should just be worthwile. I'm in no position to tune the parameters, but I would make it so, that there is always a way deeper into WH-space (assuming some kind of layering). 3) If not even taking an orca into WH-space entails the risk of getting lost - what does then? 4) There is profit to be had from gate-camping. And there is atleast the killboard-side to it. Not so with WH-closing. 5) we should keep track of what we are comparing against what. The min-time suggestion is a direct contestant to the one-way-WHs-only idea. The latter has 'griefing' build in by design.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:37:00 - [1195] Edited by: Red 7 on 29/01/2009 12:38:17 Originally by: Bellum Eternus .... You're missing an important consideration about W-Space and Tech 3. If the moons in W-Space provide materials required for Tech 3 production (a likely assumption based on existing Tech 2) then without POS's you're not going to have Tech 3. Until we have clarification on how Tech 3 will be achieved - you're jumping the gun a little.
Ziat Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:41:00 - [1196] Edited by: Ziat on 29/01/2009 12:40:57 I'm sorry perhapse, it've been already disscused. But will bounty by for NPC in w-space
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:44:00 - [1197] Originally by: Ziat Edited by: Ziat on 29/01/2009 12:40:57 I'm sorry perhapse, it've been already disscused. But will bounty by for NPC in w-space If the devs are by any means sane: no. But this question has been raised often the last two days but not yet been answered.
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:49:00 - [1198] Originally by: Bellum Eternus How I will go about breaking current proposed game designs: One-way gates: I'll always fly in with a 100% expendable alt. Not a trial account, but just an alt. I'm not even going to put my CovOps scout into a system where I can't turn around and leave without scouting it first with a throw away alt. If you allow trial accounts to use worm holes, I'll use them all the time. Don't allow this to happen. It's stupid. Two way wormholes with volume limits: I'll move ships in/out until the unwanted wormholes collapse, either because I want a different one or I want to close one so that targets can't get out or enemies can't get in. How to fix this: just REMOVE the tonnage limitation, and simply have wormholes have a fixed bandwidth for size of ships and a set time for them to exist. Rats that provide bounties in w-space. If this occurs I'll just sink a cloaking ratting ship with an alt deep into w-space, as far as I can go, and just rat for ISK whenever I want, never coming up for air. It's dumb, don't do it. Make SURE that the only way to profit from w-space is to force players to move materials from w-space to k-space and sell/trade them with players. POSes in w-space: Put up a large deathstar tower, and leave 2-3 alts behind to permanently manage it/cultivate wormholes to/from the system. These alts NEVER leave that w-space system and the POS. If they did then the POS would be lost forever, but as long as you can go back/forth through wormholes and are able to consistently return to your POS you can explore wormholes until you find a link to k-space, then exploit that wormhole as much as possible for loot transfer and resupply and then simply open/close other wormholes until another k-space wormhole pops up. Having a dedicated fleet of cyno alts and a few carriers/jump freighters on hand to bring cargo space to the mouth of a wormhole (without going into w-space with the capitals proper) will make it very easy to keep POSes, even massive deathstars, easily fed with absolute safety. With cloaks and cynos cap ships are ensured complete invulnerability, and with a few ships guarding a wormhole with dictor bubbles etc., no one is going to be hassling you from either side while you're moving your supplies and loot. W-space will probably see 100% saturation of all top end w-space resources (moons, particular systems) inside of 12 months from all the largest alliances, if w-space proves worth their time. And if it's worth anything it'll definitely be worth their time. How to solve this issue: DON'T ALLOW POSES in w-space. Carriers and Orcas at a maximum, and that's it. But don't you think it's kinda a waste / missed oppertunity to let people exploit the moons? There is one thing I haven't seen anyone ask, and that's, will your PoS survive a week in W-Space. Somehow I have a gut feeling that the NPCs won't really like you deploying PoS at their moons and may kick you out and dismantle them =) /Riv
Somal Thunder Intergalactic Peace Organization	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:49:00 - [1199] Is it possible to get stuck in a wormhole system indefinately? Say you jump with your 80M covert ops ship to check it out, could the wormhole just close and you'd get stuck there forever?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:51:00 - [1200] Originally by: Red 7 Edited by: Red 7 on 29/01/2009 12:38:17 Originally by: Bellum Eternus .... You're missing an important consideration about W-Space and Tech 3. If the moons in W-Space provide materials required for Tech 3 production (a likely assumption based on existing Tech 2) then without POS's you're not going to have Tech 3. Until we have clarification on how Tech 3 will be achieved - you're jumping the gun a little. Have all materials result from NPC drops and mining. Problem solved. Moon mining is garbage anyway. You get to profit without actually requiring someone to be there doing something. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:58:00 - [1201] Originally by: Somal Thunder Is it possible to get stuck in a wormhole system indefinately? Say you jump with your 80M covert ops ship to check it out, could the wormhole just close and you'd get stuck there forever? then another will open that you need to scan out to get out of that system
Des Jardin Ad Astra Vexillum Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.29 12:58:00 - [1202] Originally by: Somal Thunder Is it possible to get stuck in a wormhole system indefinately? Say you jump with your 80M covert ops ship to check it out, could the wormhole just close and you'd get stuck there forever? If you don't have a probe scanner and probes, you are stuck unless some friendly soul passing through shows you the exit. Of course, you can always self-destruct back to your clone. Des Jardin
Exlegion Caldari New Light	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:02:00 - [1203] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/01/2009 13:04:59 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Have all materials result from NPC drops and mining. Problem solved. Moon mining is garbage anyway. You get to profit without actually requiring someone to be there doing something. Bellum, I agree with you to an extent. But I don't think the solution is to take away the dimension that moon mining brings to the game. I, for one, would like to some day give moon mining a try. It's on my Eve bucket list. My point is that dimensions are always a good thing; even if you yourself don't enjoy them. It's why I also oppose completely removing insurance from the game. CCP needs to ensure that these new systems aren't controlled and held by the super alliances. And I believe they're on the right track. We'll just have to wait for more details and see how it all plays out. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:04:00 - [1204] Originally by: Rivqua But don't you think it's kinda a waste / missed oppertunity to let people exploit the moons? There is one thing I haven't seen anyone ask, and that's, will your PoS survive a week in W-Space. Somehow I have a gut feeling that the NPCs won't really like you deploying PoS at their moons and may kick you out and dismantle them =) /Riv While anything is possible, I don't see NPCs attacking POSes if they're allowed to be set up regardless. There is no precedent. Further more, all existing abandoned POSes can't even be un-anchored and reclaimed as it is now. They simply have to be destroyed and then a new one put in it's place. Adding moons in w-space isn't the answer to moon mineral issues. The answer is to further perfect alchemy and dilute the lock on r64 mins. Otherwise you'll just see a lock on the r64 stuff in w-space systems. If you look at the 0.0 landscape it shows what happens with the current end game design regarding POSes. If POSes are allowed in w-space, the same thing will occur. It's just a matter of time and effort. The gaps WILL be filled by the sheer pressure of population increase and competition. Every scrap of worthwhile real estate in Eve is dominated by large power blocks, and w-space will be no exception if you allow permanent infrastructure to be erected in w-space. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:11:00 - [1205] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 29/01/2009 13:12:40 You really seem to know all the answers. Every scrap of worthwhile space is held by those who have leadership and drive to hold that space. It's funny that people don't realize that alliances aren't successful because they are big, but they are big because they are successful. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:26:00 - [1206] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 29/01/2009 13:12:40 You really seem to know all the answers. Every scrap of worthwhile space is held by those who have leadership and drive to hold that space. It's funny that people don't realize that alliances aren't successful because they are big, but they are big because they are successful. I'm not saying that literal size = success. Look at Goonswarm. They're very large population wise but only mediocre in performance, particularly given their numbers. What I'm saying is that the players will expand to fill the space, just like water fills a balloon. They will find and settle every last inch of w-space sooner or later, and all of the high end resources will be locked down just as tightly as they are now in 0.0. You seem to have baseless comments with nothing to back them up. You really don't seem to know what you're talking about. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:28:00 - [1207] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Moon mining is garbage anyway. You get to profit without actually requiring someone to be there doing something. very OT, but I beg to differ. If we would redesign the game bottom up I would opt for making belt-mining more like moon mining. Why? Because hitting F1-F? is neither fun nor exciting. It wouldnt be easy money though. It would be all about defending (or paying someone to do so) the logistics chain. Then again, I would also drop sec status and make space only safe near NPC stations. Different game.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:32:00 - [1208] While I'll remain to be corrected, I think people are vastly over-estimating their ability to quickly 'cycle wormholes' tbh. What if you're stuck with a bunch of one-way wormholes out of your system and no two-ways? While CCP have most definately said "there'll always be a wormhole back to K-space", they definately haven't said there'll always be a wormhole into every W-space system. To be frank, I'm anticipating a much, much larger time and effort overhead in maintaining a W-space POS compared to a 0.0 POS. POS fuellers can just warp,fuel,warp,fuel,warp,fuel,warp,fuel, jump to new system etc.. If you can't reliably maintain as simple a connection, which I highly doubt you will be able to, you'd be looking at maybe even 10 times the effort to maintain one W-space POS just through time wasted cycling those wormholes, which is just plain old "Hit bricks with heavy bricks". Does it work? Sure. Is it a game anymore? No, it's a chore.
Aylara	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:41:00 - [1209] Originally by: Levitikon That makes POS in their current K-world implementation just untouchable, where the role of POS in W-space should be totally different to the role they play in K-space. In stead of being sov claiming behemoths and markers of ultimate dominance, they should be points of conflicts, the war chests luring your enemies to attack you. In K-space, the orle is exactly opposite - to drive away, scare away, or just kill anyone who can endanger your local dominance. Mow, final solution: Current poses and POS guns banned from being used in W-space (either with contraband mechanism, or simple "cannot deploy here used with doomsdays bubbles in hisec.) So far, easy. Add new sucking POS (small pos with dmg, hp, and reinforce nerfed 50%), those poses can still: -manufacture anything you needed (ship, ammo!) -refitting -spare ships storage -provide safe idling point for alliance mates -up to 14,000,000 cargo space for loot -temporary safe heaven You can see, they're just invaluable for small medium force living there. But, they can be reinforced easily by roaming pos killers group, with all the ships and hangar contents ending in victor hands (huge war chest, worth fighting for). Attackers will bother with attacking, defenders will most certainly show in full force to defend. None of the sides can blob due to mechanics of W-space. Large loses and large winnings guaranteed, no matter who wins. Also, meaningful resolution - they either get booted form system, or keep the system. Most importantly though, countless small pvp corporations and alliances, will matter again. They won't be insignificant and the ones that were already forced into joining big alliances, will be allowed to become significant. To sum up: Easy "roaming" via 0.0's 0.0 W-space. Much more difficult "roaming" through lowsec and empire's 0.0 W-space, traveling more based on trips in K-space. POS as primary logistical, not military structures. Becoming the war chests of W-space Organized Warfare. Easy to kill/defend, but always decisive outcome. They provide services essential for long term occupancy of a system, but act like honey pot for conflict. Set one up, if you're prepared to defend it. Not to have it defend you. To sum the sum up: the perfect 0.0 warfare of our dreams. Very nice! Make new W-POS and put local in delayed mode! I also dream about a day when you'll be able to steal resources from POS-es via hacking + covert gang + blocade runner. Only then we will have true raids, something worth to fight for (take from others or protect your resources), a really good motivation, not the already boring e-peen killmails.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:42:00 - [1210] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 29/01/2009 13:12:40 You really seem to know all the answers. Every scrap of worthwhile space is held by those who have leadership and drive to hold that space. It's funny that people don't realize that alliances aren't successful because they are big, but they are big because they are successful. I'm not saying that literal size = success. Look at Goonswarm. They're very large population wise but only mediocre in performance, particularly given their numbers. What I'm saying is that the players will expand to fill the space, just like water fills a balloon. They will find and settle every last inch of w-space sooner or later, and all of the high end resources will be locked down just as tightly as they are now in 0.0. You seem to have baseless comments with nothing to back them up. You really don't seem to know what you're talking about. And what proof do you have? The fact that you are making a ton of assumptions about things you've never done or don't know about? All you are is some whiny lowsec pirate turned forum whiner who seems to think he knows everything that is best for the game and how to fix every last thing. If this is the case why have you not become a Dev yet? Because someone who has all this knowledge would be amazing for CCP to have. And yes, goons are horrible at this game, we know. However, what you don't know, is that Goonswarm is the perfect example of a small group of pilots dieing horribly in Syndicate getting together to become one of the most powerful alliances in game.

Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:44:00 - [1211] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Pie-in-the-sky, I'd actually like to see a mechanic introduced for W-space stuff that forces a POS to be unanchored after at-most two months. It'd keep W-space 'free-for-all' in a sense. And then port this feature to highsec. Originally by: Jmanis Catharg cycling those wormholes, which is just plain old "Hit bricks with heavy bricks". Does it work? Sure. Is it a game anymore? No, it's a chore. Not only is it a chore, but also not as profitable - and maybe - maybe - even less profitable than the chore that is mission running or invention or -to some degree- marketeering (which can gain quite some isk/week, too).
Arthur Rage	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:46:00 - [1212] Originally by: Ahro Thariori Then again, I would also drop sec status and make space only safe near NPC stations. Different game. This would of course make no sense if you're not safe even in the Capital System of an Empire, breaking trade routes and causing short supply when some Alliance focuses on Industrials and Freighters. What's missing in EVE is a mechanic to allow Players to act as an official Police force or at least hired Bodyguards (without Corp/Alliance hopping).
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.29 13:47:00 - [1213] Edited by: Red 7 on 29/01/2009 13:48:41 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Further more, all existing abandoned POSes can't even be un-anchored and reclaimed as it is now. They simply have to be destroyed and then a new one put in it's place. Adding moons in w-space isn't the answer to moon mineral issues. The answer is to further perfect alchemy and dilute the lock on r64 mins. Otherwise you'll just see a lock on the r64 stuff in w-space systems. If you look at the 0.0 landscape it shows what happens with the current end game design regarding POSes. If POSes are allowed in w-space, the same thing will occur. It's just a matter of time and effort. The gaps WILL be filled by the sheer pressure of population increase and competition. Every scrap of worthwhile real estate in Eve is dominated by large power blocks, and w-space will be no exception if you allow permanent infrastructure to be erected in w-space. The issue with abandoned POS's has been raised by CSM and their thinking is that after a period of time offline they can be unachored by others. The main problem is how long it should be before somebody can steal them. Personally I prefer something short like 7 days but the last time I checked it was something like 30 days. If the components needed for Tech 3 manufacture come from NPC's then you can either bypass the reaction stage and drop items ready to be used in the manufacture process - or more "raw" components. The issue with the latter is the greater volume and hence cargo capacity needed. The problem with both is that it essentially raises the price of the constructed Tech 3 ship modules. Which means (using rigs as a baseline) that the ship modules would cost approx 30M isk each and a fully assembled Tech 3 ship 150M isk.
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:05:00 - [1214] PICTURES WE WANT PICTURES!!!!11!!1!!!!
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:13:00 - [1215] forum newbie here! but even i have figured that if i want to post and not read 40 pages of ppl's conjecture, wines, and dreams. at least scan the black background post,then you don't have to add pages of extra post that no one wants to read. no bounty, no one way WH's(at least not to start),and any of this can change before the release. this should be the greatest expansion in any game! witch means that there will be great things for every one to do in it. grievers need no one to design activity for.they will find there own! pirates just need the rules to have some slack and there will always be a place for them. industrialist make the base of a morpg.so a balance of what can be gotten with out them and a means of manufacture is all they need. then the adventure just needs a chance to profit and survive the pirates.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:13:00 - [1216] I just had to say this... To enjoy something you have to know what to enjoy in the first place. How do you tell the difference between something that is fun and something that is boring? If CCP would make everything FUN and not TEDIOUS/CHALLENGING then you would redefine what FUN is. Having fun every minute you play EvE would make it dull because we as humans (personal experience) tend to have fun when we do stuff we would like to do AFTER we have done the boring and tedious work. IF there wasn't any boring/tedious/challenging stuff to do we would start to think of FUN as the boring/tedious/challenging stuff, we are greedy by nature. So in essence, if CCP where to make EVERYTHING easy as pie. we would eventually end up with a single button. "Press for FUN" which puts a text on your screen that says "congratulations, you win EvE". Then you would move on to another game. After all, a single "I WIN" button takes minimal effort to use and gives you an instant reward. Personally i prefer working for it, the harder i work for it. The more i enjoy the rewards. Taking the mega alliances for example, they most likely worked really hard to get that big, unless someone gave them an "I WIN" button somewhere, and it probably took some proper planning to make it work for them. So for wormhole systems, it will take proper planning and effort to take over all of them. And it takes proper planning and effort to UNDO their work. If a mega alliance puts up a deathstar then you better do the same and both of you are in for a very long and tedious fight over the wormholes and resources to maintain control. You might get lucky and be able to sneak in a couple of dreads as time progress and pop that deathstar. Or you could make sure they can't maintain it because they run out of fuel. It's a whole different game out there, it's easy to get in, hard to get out and even harder to stay! And no-one knows where the next wormhole will lead to, thus it is impossible to "lock" a W-System down completely. Now stop *****ing and wait for moar dev blogs before you complain. And fun takes effort, from all! //Cadde
Khanto Thor Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:23:00 - [1217] Its a shame that CCP released so many details of wormhole space... think of the excitement when the first player discovered a wormhole when he tried these new probes that appeared on the market! think of the buzz on the forums as players start to get lost in wormhole space. ....I just hope CCP leave some surprises to be discovered in WH space and not everything is disclosed beforehand.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:25:00 - [1218] Originally by: Khanto Thor Its a shame that CCP released so many details of wormhole space... think of the excitement when the first player discovered a wormhole when he tried these new probes that appeared on the market! think of the buzz on the forums as players start to get lost in wormhole space. ....I just hope CCP leave some surprises to be discovered in WH space and not everything is disclosed beforehand. it will hit sisi before it will be released in tq
Lita F	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:27:00 - [1219] From all the info i read i get the feeling it will be impossible/very hard and time consuming to use single character for this new wormhole thingie.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:30:00 - [1220] Originally by: Lita F From all the info i read i get the feeling it will be impossible/very hard and time consuming to use single character for this new wormhole thingie. Yep. Better get a second account... or a CORPMATE.

cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:34:00 - [1221] Originally by: Lita F From all the info i read i get the feeling it will be impossible/very hard and time consuming to use single character for this new wormhole thingie. Advisable is 2 players, 1 probe ship and 1 for what ever you want to do there, killing, mining, whatever. That its hard, wel I hope it is, about impossible no I dont think it will be but you will need time/patience for sure. I did drop an idea in Features and Ideas Discussion to re-bonus the black ops to make them more suitable for exploration work, as in the line from cov ops and recons a bit on scanning, maybe then solo players would have a good ship, expensive but useful for this line of exploration.
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:54:00 - [1222] Originally by: cianide pro Originally by: Lita F From all the info i read i get the feeling it will be impossible/very hard and time consuming to use single character for this new wormhole thingie. Advisable is 2 players, 1 probe ship and 1 for what ever you want to do there, killing, mining, whatever. That its hard, wel I hope it is, about impossible no I dont think it will be but you will need time/patience for sure. I did drop an idea in Features and Ideas Discussion to re-bonus the black ops to make them more suitable for exploration work, as in the line from cov ops and recons a bit on scanning, maybe then solo players would have a good ship, expensive but useful for this line of exploration. The new exploration probe launcher isn't going to be powergrid or CPU consuming, so you can do it by yourself easily. Just sacrifice a high slot and some m3 for the probes and decide how big of a ship you want to use.
Meckomec	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:57:00 - [1223] Edited by: Meckomec on 29/01/2009 14:59:27 It's probably been said, but the in-out trick could easily be resolved by making ALL wormholes one way only. Yeah, closing down an entrance wormhole would now be pretty hard since you would need to exit w-space into a random location, find your way back to where the entrance w-hole is and jump in again to drain it's mass. and considering motherships can go into some w-holes it might take alot of jumping back and forth to close it (unless you have a big fleet able to help you out). It might be easy to do if the exit w-hole lands you in safe space. if the exit lands you 40 jumps into 0.0 you will most likely not bother. SO you go out and probe out a w-hole. You find a "entrace w-hole" and go through in your probing ship. You now scan for the "exit" w-hole and go through it. Now you can either find yourself in a safe location and decides to go back with your bigger ships to farm whats in there. If you instead find the location of the "exit" wormhole to land you 30 jumps from empire space in 0.0 you probably wont bother trying to farm it and instead you get your prober home and try to find a "better" connected set of w-holes. OR you go in since the reward in there is just to big to pass on and decide to farm it. you can now try and get back home from 30 jumps in nullsec space or wait until the exit closes on its own due to its timer or it being depleeted of its mass allowance and hopefully the next w-hole it spawns gets you to a safer location. if not and you exit with your prober you will now have to find the "entrance" w-hole to get back to your bigger ship. which could be tricky if it has despawned. This would make it very hard to manange any poses in the w-spaces.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.01.29 14:59:00 - [1224] Originally by: Infinion Originally by: cianide pro Originally by: Lita F From all the info i read i get the feeling it will be impossible/very hard and time consuming to use single character for this new wormhole thingie. Advisable is 2 players, 1 probe ship and 1 for what ever you want to do there, killing, mining, whatever. That its hard, wel I hope it is, about impossible no I dont think it will be but you will need time/patience for sure. I did drop an idea in Features and Ideas Discussion to re-bonus the black ops to make them more suitable for exploration work, as in the line from cov ops and recons a bit on scanning, maybe then solo players would have a good ship, expensive but useful for this line of exploration. The new exploration probe launcher isn't going to be powergrid or CPU consuming, so you can do it by yourself easily. Just sacrifice a high slot and some m3 for the probes and decide how big of a ship you want to use. I dont mean just drop a launcher with probes, change of ship bonus and cargo space, so that you can go on long trips and also it will have the space for the fuel for gang jumps with the jump bridge when the gang exits in low sec systems. But its just an idea and maybe some dev will see something useful in it :P
Enthral	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:11:00 - [1225] Originally by: Arritha I see a lot of abandoned POS building up in these new systems. While a small pos can be killed easily with a few BS, a medium becomes more difficult, and a large requires a real fleet of ships (or capitals). Who is going to be able to clear a large abandoned pos off a r64 moon? Perhaps, the local NPC's will... -Enthral
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:12:00 - [1226] If I have the choice, I'd rather have people have POS in W-Space than everyone running around with Coward Ops Cloaks. And if people can't establish some kind of haven, however brief (small tower with fuel for 5 days or so), then that is all we will see - cloaks and stabs.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:55:00 - [1227] I know the CPU reqs for the exploration launcher are not out yet, but will it fit on frigates without much compromise ?
Zerakix	Posted - 2009.01.29 15:55:00 - [1228] What about a anti-wormhole weapon? A module that lets you overload a wormhole so it times out faster?
Herio Mortis HYDRA MANUFACTURING Corp O X I D E	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:06:00 - [1229] ITT: Lots of people blindly assuming that there will be moon mats in W-space.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:08:00 - [1230] I'd like to see an alien station deep in the WH network, layers beyond K space. It'll be stocked with alien agents, all teh moons are taken, and teh market has some t3 stuff in it.

Delclara Nancekuke Gallente Frisky Space Vixens	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:15:00 - [1231] Aarrrgh!! I've looked through 23 pages and my eyes hurt... My only question. Will it be feasable to solo through a wormhole and play around expecting to bag a bit of loot and have some fun? I'm not bothered about massive logistics, putting up POSs and shoot the carp out of each other. The mere fact of finding a wormhole and finding something on the otherside that I've managed to win is fun enough for me! End of/
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:18:00 - [1232] Originally by: Sigras how about this idea for fixing the in out workaround: if a WH collapses because it ran out of mass, the system runs a check; If the WH appeared less than X hours ago, no other WH appears in the system until X hours has passed. This would allow people the peace of mind of knowing they're not going to be stuck in a system for days on end, but at the same time, since nobody really knows what X is, this would severely hamper efforts to in out span the WH to get a respawn Off the top of my head: This allows you to create private systems. This allows you to grief people.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:29:00 - [1233] Originally by: Red 7 You're missing an important consideration about W-Space and Tech 3. If the moons in W-Space provide materials required for Tech 3 production (a likely assumption based on existing Tech 2) That's not a likely assumption if you've read the dev blog or this thread.
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:30:00 - [1234] I have a question, so let's say your in the middle of Delve and find a wormhole, you enter it...with me so far? Now, lets say you find an exiting warmhole ... could that warmhole suddenly make you be in Jita ? And what about vice-versa (That's so not spelled right.) ? Say, your in Jita, find a warmhole, go trough it...have ur fun in there and when you find the exiting warmhole, you suddenly appear in the middle of a 300vs300 fight deep down in Stain ? -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.
War Fairy	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:32:00 - [1235] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 29/01/2009 13:36:02 While I'll remain to be corrected, I think people are vastly over-estimating their ability to quickly 'cycle wormholes' tbh. That's fine. You don't need to cycle them quickly. You only need one WH to Empire every month or so.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:47:00 - [1236] Originally by: royal killer I have a question, so let's say your in the middle of Delve and find a wormhole, you enter it...with me so far? Now, lets say you find an exiting warmhole ... could that warmhole suddenly make you be in Jita ? And what about vice-versa (That's so not spelled right.) ? Say, your in Jita, find a warmhole, go trough it...have ur fun in there and when you find the exiting warmhole, you suddenly appear in the middle of a 300vs300 fight deep down in Stain ? Yes, this could happen: Jita <==WormHole 1==> WormHole System <==WormHole 2==> System in Delve But the wormhole you exit through, from Jita in the WHS will take you from the WHS back to Jita (2-way link). Seeing as I'm already repeating myself, this is also possible: Jita <==WormHole 1==> System in Delve However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity.

royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:55:00 - [1237] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: royal killer I have a question, so let's say your in the middle of Delve and find a wormhole, you enter it...with me so far? Now, lets say you find an exiting warmhole ... could that warmhole suddenly make you be in Jita ? And what about vice-versa (That's so not spelled right.) ? Say, your in Jita, find a warmhole, go trough it...have ur fun in there and when you find the exiting warmhole, you suddenly appear in the middle of a 300vs300 fight deep down in Stain ? Heh yeah that would be awesome....but, let me see if I got this right...You find a wormhole in Jita and that wormhole would just take you to a system already on the map ? (a none wormhole system) fx. FD-MLJ ?! And where in the system would these wormholes pop up ? like 5km from a gate and other structures? Yes, this could happen: Jita <==WormHole 1==> WormHole System <==WormHole 2==> System in Delve But the wormhole you exit through, from Jita in the WHS will take you from the WHS back to Jita (2-way link). Seeing as I'm already repeating myself, this is also possible: Jita <==WormHole 1==> System in Delve However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity.
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:55:00 - [1238] Originally by: CCP Prism X -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, Now.... just imagine what might cause a tear in the fabric of spacetime.... some massive release of energy.... like multiple Doomsdays going off on the same grid.
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:57:00 - [1239] Originally by: CCP Prism X However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. It would be pretty awesome if wormholes has a slight affinity for forming on grids with large numbers of players though, wouldn't it? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2009.01.29 16:59:00 - [1240] Edited by: royal killer on 29/01/2009 16:59:01 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: CCP Prism X However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. It would be pretty awesome if wormholes has a slight affinity for forming on grids with large numbers of players though, wouldn't it? Game mechanics purposely making a exploration gang with valuable tech 3 requirement materials pop up right in the middle of a pirate gang in lowsec -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.

Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:26:00 - [1241] You'd only need a thumper to attact the WH :)
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:49:00 - [1242] Make DDD's create a destination point for a one-way wormhole, one that is visible on the overview in the entry-point system. ^_^
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.29 17:51:00 - [1243] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: royal killer I have a question, so let's say your in the middle of Delve and find a wormhole, you enter it...with me so far? Now, lets say you find an exiting warmhole ... could that warmhole suddenly make you be in Jita ? And what about vice-versa (That's so not spelled right.) ? Say, your in Jita, find a warmhole, go trough it...have ur fun in there and when you find the exiting warmhole, you suddenly appear in the middle of a 300vs300 fight deep down in Stain ? Yes, this could happen: Jita <==WormHole 1==> WormHole System <==WormHole 2==> System in Delve But the wormhole you exit through, from Jita in the WHS will take you from the WHS back to Jita (2-way link). Seeing as I'm already repeating myself, this is also possible: Jita <==WormHole 1==> System in Delve However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. So I guess you're also saying that wormholes won't spawn on the grids with stargates, moons or planets. But I'm really hoping for proximity activation now. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Tarminic 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:10:00 - [1244] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: royal killer I have a question, so let's say your in the middle of Delve and find a wormhole, you enter it...with me so far? Now, lets say you find an exiting warmhole ... could that warmhole suddenly make you be in Jita ? And what about vice-versa (That's so not spelled right.) ? Say, your in Jita, find a warmhole, go trough it...have ur fun in there and when you find the exiting warmhole, you suddenly appear in the middle of a 300vs300 fight deep down in Stain ? Yes, this could happen: Jita <==WormHole 1==> WormHole System <==WormHole 2==> System in Delve But the wormhole you exit through, from Jita in the WHS will take you from the WHS back to Jita (2-way link). Seeing as I'm already repeating myself, this is also possible: Jita <==WormHole 1==> System in Delve However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. So I guess you're also saying that wormholes won't spawn on the grids with stargates, moons or planets. But I'm really hoping for proximity activation now. I don't think he's saying it would be impossible, just extremely unlikely. What percentage of a solar system's grids actually have anything in them? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3)
Cardinal Harvest	Posted - 2009.01.29 18:17:00 - [1245] "...new pockets of resources to exploit." Oh, sweet irony.
Geezelbub	Posted - 2009.01.29 19:18:00 - [1246] Originally by: royal killer Game mechanics purposely making a exploration gang with valuable tech 3 requirement materials pop up right in the middle of a pirate gang in lowsec[:pirate: lol...a classic lazy bum "pirate". This guy thinks the game should reward him for ganking noobs in low sec by dropping T3 materials/components in his lap! Just freakin perfect. here, I'll fix it for ya: Game mechanics purposely making a high chance for wormholes that spawn on top of anyone with a neg sec status. These small temp WH will dump you directly into the middle of a huge gang of NPC T3 pod killers. There....much better.
Zhora Six	Posted - 2009.01.29 20:41:00 - [1247] Originally by: CCP Prism X But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. I think that would be one of the most epic things I could imagine happening in Eve. "Yarr! This be a fleet fight... Hey, where'd that neut come from?" surprise wormhole "Oh nooooo......es" Cap ships: "Where'd everyone go?" __________________________________________ CCP Greyscale: Pie is not compatible with the dark, dangerous nature of EVE. We replaced it with Black Forest Gateaux, which meets the necessary criteria.
weredoomed	Posted - 2009.01.29 21:23:00 - [1248] Sadists love mazes. In this MUD I used to played at people would drop copper coins on the floor and peek through the doors while drawing the rooms on a piece of paper. Fun at times, but most players cant handle being stuck for several hours. So far wormspace seems best suited for loners with 2 accounts and no home. PVP - With 2500 systems it might take a while to find worthy targets. Provided your part of w-space is even linked to places with neutrals. - Gang pvp might be best suited for groups with cheap ships and medical insurance. - Its not going to be easy to regroup in worm space. People log on at different times and some might not be able to keep up with the group due to real life events. PVE - If you dont want pvpers to find your wormhole you may have to operate far away from traveled systems. - The risk involved and the time spent transporting the goods to the market will have to result in a higher revenue than doing lvl4 missions or ratting in 0.0. - There will be no info about incoming threats. - If there was a covop parked at the wormhole you just sent your orca through you aint going enjoy the ride. - There will be fewer corp mates around and your characters might be unavailable when you need them. - Miners will have a hard time due to the lack of friendly pos'es and high amount of unrefined ore. Assuming they dont want to bring a pos every time they go somewhere. - Operating in deep w-space might result in having to travel through hostile territory in order to get home. Trips will be more frequent with a blockade runner and potentially expensive with a rorqual. The latter can at least transport the ratting ship. - Need 2 accounts to effectively probe, rat and transport the loot. Lost ships may be hard to replace. - Drone users will lose their dps when disconnected and turrets will run out of ammo. Not sure its going to be the smart thing to do, but I'd really like to settle out on the rim outside the influence of the power blocks. Medium sized fleet combat and knowing all your neighbors sounds great. I'll be following this tread with interest. How about a new bridge hub you can link to node bridges in systems far from k-space. The place might support a small community if you throw in a crap station in the hub system. How deep can you get in w-space and will there be a way to tell if you are moving away from k-space? Will there be any landmarks or ways of telling in which general direction the next wormhole will take you? Assuming there is some kind of system behind the madness.
Shadow's Caress Dark Skullz Empire Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.29 21:27:00 - [1249] Edited by: Shadow''s Caress on 29/01/2009 21:32:20 As fun as it is to explore deep space and "Bum F*** Middle of Nowhere" systems, This to me seems like bad game design. Don't get me wrong, I love where you are going with wormholes. I just think that locking a player in one spot in any game under any circumstance with no guaranteed way out is not conducive to enjoying a game. As far as I understand it, this is exactly why stuck petitions get near immediate responses. I understand that wormholes by nature should form randomly and then collapse, but in order to preserve sanity I think that there should always at the very least be a way out of a system. You may have to leave your loot behind, or maybe your ship got blown up and by leaving the system you won't be able to get back to your wreck. Fine. Please, don't force me to self-destruct my ship and my pod in order to continue to play the game that I'm paying for. Just think of players like milk. If you pour milk into something and don't let it drain out somehow it will get sour fast. You don't have to allow any more access to a wormhole system once it is closed, but for the sake of sanity please let people WH out or cyno out. If that is not acceptable, then at least maintain one active wormhole in a system at any given time or pop up a new one in a predictable time interval. Good explorers always leave breadcrumbs. On a separate note, I'd like to see full use of the Rorqual in these new wormhole systems. I'd like to see someone bring a Rorqual into WH system, deploy a POS, mine minerals/rat or whatever, then pack everything up and cyno the ship to some system nearby to the WH system. This is the sort of thing that Rorquals excel at and I'd like to see it as a viable mechanic when wormholes are deployed. In a nutshell: Please at least let us cyno out of WH systems. Edit: If you want T3 production to be stable in any form, it needs to be somewhat lucrative compared to the risks involved. That means knowing for sure that when your cargo is full of loot that you'll be able to get out of W-Space at some point and cash in. Even more conducive to T3 production would be getting out of w-space somewhere geographically near where you started (mabye 1-2 regions away instead of on the other side of eve).
Kayosoni Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2009.01.29 21:49:00 - [1250] Originally by: CCP Prism X But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts blowing in half of the fleefight due to proximity. fixed. ---

Saba Quiestador AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:26:00 - [1251] Here is a way to prevent easy colonization of W-space, while still keeping the core design elements intact. Keep wormholes 2-way, but allow people to enter the wormhole for the first time only on the side where it was first encountered. Once they have gone through once, they can return through it. But you couldn't enter a wormhole for the first time on the opposite "side" from where it was discovered. For example, I am in a W-space system. I scan down a wormhole. I can go through that wormhole into K-space, do some stuff, then go back through the same wormhole into the same W-space system. It is 2-way for me, since I entered it from the W-space side, and when I went through I got "tagged", allowing me to use it later to go from K-space back to the same W-space system (as long as it hasn't closed). However, I can't do the thing where I open a wormhole from W-space to K-space, see where the K-space side ends up, then tell my corpmates to go there, and then have them come in through my wormhole from K-space into W-space. It is a W-space wormhole, and to use it, you have to enter it the first time on the W-space side. While this would NOT prevent colonizing W-space, it would make it a lot more difficult. Your "colony" would effectively be limited to the people that were together when you first went there, through the first wormhole. It would prevent you from bringing "reinforcements" in from K-space through a wormhole found (and first used) in W-space. To add more people from K-space, you'd have to get incredibly lucky, with some K-space explorer just happening to get a wormhole into your system (and the lucky part being, that explorer is friendly...). There are some other elements that could be bad OR good about this: This would also allow you to "defend" a colonized system from more people coming in. If you are in W-space, just scan all the time, and if you find a wormhole, open it up from W-space for the first time, and then go on back through. That wormhole is now closed to anyone coming in initially from K-space. If you were out exploring in W-space, and you found that someone had colonized that system (with a POS or something), you would be limited in what you could bring in to attack the POS. You could only bring as much force as your original K-space to W-space wormhole allowed, since an attacker also couldn't do the thing where they opened the wormhole from W-space, then brought lots of people in from K-space to W-space through that wormhole.
Col Callahan Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:36:00 - [1252] Edited by: Col Callahan on 29/01/2009 22:36:02 39days, 12hrs, 26mins and 3 secs until downtime on the 10th of march. I am counting the seconds until this time in space. Can't bloody wait
Nerad Tendo	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:36:00 - [1253] You're assuming that it's easy to colonize W-space...
Dal Deinvisu Ventis Secundis	Posted - 2009.01.29 22:38:00 - [1254] Edited by: Dal Deinvisu on 29/01/2009 22:38:48 Possible solution to the player-controlled wormhole problem: Make the first hour k->w only, and the last only w->k; or visa-versa and/or randomized. It would keep people from flipping wormholes all the time but still allow their use, and give people on either side time to prepare for them jump to become two way (by camping or gathering their gang, etc).
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:44:00 - [1255] One thousand two hundred and fifty three posts... and forty two pages later... And it seems that the Devs have been dancing around the topic of "Probes". What will happen to the BPOs and surplus of probes we may have already? I know around page 25 or so, it was quickly touched upon, saying that they'd be converted over. But what does that really mean? I have a researched Grav Quest, Pursuit, Comb, and Sift. Now if they're getting rid of the 4 catagories, making 1 probe with variable range... Does that mean 3 of my BPO will evaporate? Or will all 4 turn into the exact same "Grav Probe" BPO? Or better still... will there still be a distinction for Grav or Radar or whatever? Will all 20 BPO turn into "Exploration Probe" BPOs? And instead of a handful of various kinds, my hanger will be full of generic Probes? And as far as duration vs the ability to recall probes? What's to keep someone from buying a small stock, and never needing to replace probes? Of course, there's always the possibility of forgetting one, same as drones are sometimes left behind. But otherwise, how could an Industrialist continue to make a living off Exploration sales, when you can recall and subsequently reset all your probes lifespans? Just some thoughts that don't seem to have been addressed in the last 42 pages.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.29 23:48:00 - [1256] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 29/01/2009 23:54:43 Quote: And as far as duration vs the ability to recall probes? What's to keep someone from buying a small stock, and never needing to replace probes? Of course, there's always the possibility of forgetting one, same as drones are sometimes left behind. But otherwise, how could an Industrialist continue to make a living off Exploration sales, when you can recall and subsequently reset all your probes lifespans? Same way there's still a market for drones. People unexpectedly lose them to ship loss, accidental loss, laziness, new people who've never bought them before, market manipulators. Quote: In your example, only a guy starting on the inside could do that semi-reliably. If the wormhole were to collapse behind him tho... I'm still looking forward to see how people so single-mindedly set on wanting to "permanently" lock down certain W-space systems deal with one-way wormholes. I think they're conceiving flipping wormholes being as simple as drawing cards from a deck till you find an ace.
Leumas Kharzim Amarr Intaki Armaments	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:09:00 - [1257] Originally by: Marcus Gideon One thousand two hundred and fifty three posts... and forty two pages later... And it seems that the Devs have been dancing around the topic of "Probes". What will happen to the BPOs and surplus of probes we may have already? I know around page 25 or so, it was quickly touched upon, saying that they'd be converted over. But what does that really mean? Answer: Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Des Jardin ... 2. What happens to old launchers, implants, rigs, probes, etc.? ... ... 2) Rigs, implants and ship bonuses will hopefully be repurposed to make them roughly as useful as they are now. Launchers and probes (and their blueprints) are being automatically converted to the new types. ... CCP Greyscale is preparing a blog specifically about probing to be published in the near future. All your questions will be answered in due time.
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:33:00 - [1258] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: CCP Prism X But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts blowing in half of the fleefight due to proximity. fixed. Except wormholes DO suck.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.30 00:42:00 - [1259] Quote: Except wormholes DO suck. Razz Reminds me of the joke my friend said re: our broken office vacuum cleaner. "Need to take that one back and find one that sucks" Now when wormholes come out I won't help but imagine the EVE universe connected by vacuum cleaners --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.30 09:31:00 - [1260] actually i think setting up a settlement for a 50-100 active corp or alliance could be done but within wspace itself. Especially for the nomad empires that want some ninja ratting, empire access, the odd low sec drop, pvp, pve and all the rest And i think with any idea the whining on all sides about it not quite matching their play style is meaning its balanced. CCP have added 2500 systems for now but they can always add more kspace and wspace later on or even a new style of space if they get creative And ti will fill a gap between 0.0 powerblocks, empire gamers , casual gamers wanting some free space without all this nbsi pvp stuff being dropped on em. Low sec alliances and corps would be best suited ducking in and out as needed to get around.

Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:09:00 - [1261] Originally by: Shadow's Caress As far as I understand it, this is exactly why stuck petitions get near immediate responses. Hardly applicable. You CAN'T unstuck yourself when stuck in jita. You CAN unstuck yourself when "stuck" in w-space. Quote: I understand that wormholes by nature should form randomly and then collapse, but in order to preserve sanity I think that there should always at the very least be a way out of a system. According to grayscale there will be, if you can probe it. Quote: You may have to leave your loot behind, or maybe your ship got blown up and by leaving the system you won't be able to get back to your wreck. Fine. Please, don't force me to self-destruct my ship and my pod in order to continue to play the game that I'm paying for. ?? Very much contradictory. Very. First you say: give me a way out, even if I have to lose ship and loot. For some unknown reason though, you don't want to lose the pod.... What's the difference, really? If you don't like to lose implants, jump clone to a cheaply fitted clone before going in w-space. Really the fact that you CAN get stuck if you don't plan ahead, and basically ONLY if you don't plan ahead, is an excellent addition to the harsh and unforgiving world, and I fully approve of it.
tropic89	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:12:00 - [1262] Devs, please explain to me how making these wormholes isnt the biggiest backstab to the regular players of eve. Let me explain: Pilot named Rffrwwe, who we see in his trusty raven in 1/2 the 0.0's of eve, has his trusty npc corp alt find a wormhole, he then takes his raven and disapears into oblivion ratting his isk for the isk selling company, totally happy that the wormhole will be closing behind him. Please tell me this isnt true.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:19:00 - [1263] Hah... The wormholes are as anti-macro as you can get.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:21:00 - [1264] Originally by: tropic89 Devs, please explain to me how making these wormholes isnt the biggiest backstab to the regular players of eve. Let me explain: Pilot named Rffrwwe, who we see in his trusty raven in 1/2 the 0.0's of eve, has his trusty npc corp alt find a wormhole, he then takes his raven and disapears into oblivion ratting his isk for the isk selling company, totally happy that the wormhole will be closing behind him. Please tell me this isnt true. If you had read the dev responces in this thread you would realize closing the wormhole behind a pve fit ratting raven is suicide in multiple forms. Also the npc won't have bounties they will be like the drone regions and drop or have salvage that is used for t3 production. I think the only way you are going to make isk in w-space is by bringing goods back to empire to sell so no worries about macrowhatevers in w-space. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:28:00 - [1265] i would like to see some of the rats in wspace have bounties id like to see the pirate factions setting up their own operations there that said .... for a ratter it will take time ( to probe etc) if they offer pvp opposition the farmers will really need to be smart which will defeat their dumbness as it stands now. 2500 wormholes 40k players at peak time to be honest youre going to have company i think more often than u think in there. Getting goods out well yeah, setting up oeprations in wspace and goign out into random 00 ksapce to do some ninja ratting yes maybe the farmers will take advantage of this but the 00 allainces should be patrolling their backyards instead of leaving them to rot behind gate camps. Aas a player u see farmers there collapse their wormhole that will make ti difficult plus a lot of regular players will be taking advantage. I think farmers will always be a problem but the vast majority are real players and as such it will remain in overall terms as it is now. The real evil thing is empire industrial corps that get war dec'd want to escape youre war decs find wspace to escape into now that will represent a challange but a lot of merc outfits might just jump into for pvp wspace anyway and ccp arent ruling out later stations and more intregration of wspace. wont be for all but it adds a new dimension that blurs the pvp eccentric focus ccp need more players and a lot will be hello kitty types that dont like a lot of pvp and the pvpers will just need to adjust and realise that there will be more targets it alters the game balance in a good way and i think ccp are right to do it ( getting stuck could be fun) either adapt or leave i guess.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:34:00 - [1266] I see a new skill here. Ninja-holedriller. 10% reduction in wormhole destabilization per level. So you can sneak in and out of the hole twice as many times at lvl 5 before it collapses on you.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:09:00 - [1267] Originally by: Brixer I see a new skill here. Ninja-holedriller. 10% reduction in wormhole destabilization per level. So you can sneak in and out of the hole twice as many times at lvl 5 before it collapses on you. wormhole mass reduction skills - when passign through a wormhole for every skill trained u get a 10% reduction in youre ship mass. 50% for level 5 this skill perhaps could come on top of one of the advanced science or rigging skills or astrometrics 5. A group with this traiend up could in theory move more ships in and out giving them a settlement advantage. that said ccp would still need to restrict cap ships from empire the way i see this being done is that when a cap ship attempts to pass through a wormhole to empire they could get a message theri cynosensual jump field ability is restricting them to cyno jammed empie systems - concord jamming perhaps this fits in with the back story.
Miss Moonwych	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:14:00 - [1268] Originally by: Rex Lashar Second, a mass and timer limit is meaningless, because the people who are already in that wormhole system will be able to find it and tell their corpmates on the other side where they need to go ... As I already said before, if 2-way wormholes are possible then that whole randomness thing just makes it a logistical annoyance. Say an alliance wants to get 100 people into 'WH System 1'. They only need to spend a few days or a week scanning to do it. Check this out: They find a link to Agil and 5 people get through. They find another from Jita, 10 get through. The next one is to another wormhole system, so they use an alt to jump back and forth and close it up. Because there is always a wormhole exit in the system, a new one respawns to replace that which was shut down intentionally. Maybe this one leads to another 'known space' system? Another 10 people get through. I think there is a bigger problem than just the one Rex Lashar descirbes here. In short: the timer and mass limit give (a only a few) people two important advantages: delaying and taking initiative. As already mentioned you can constantly find and remove wormholes at the moment the re-spawn in a W-system (you keep having the initiative). But more importantly you can also secure TWO W-systems that are not connected to anything else but eachother and leaving the timer run so you can essentially go to sleep. How come? First my assumptions: If a wormhole collapses it will always and immediatly re-spawn somewhere. The total amount of wormholes always stays the same. Each W-system has to have at least one wormhole. If a W-system only contains one wormhole and it collapses, a new wormhole is necessarily spawn in that system. Most W-systems contain only one wormhole. If these assumptions are correct then taking control of a W-system by forcing it to connect only with another W-system is possible while keeping complete initiative with only 2-4 people. What you would do: First you have to find a W-system that contains a valuable moon. You bring in a pos, fuel and ships of different sizes. When in the W-system you remove the entrance wormhole by making sure you can jump in and out an even number of times using a certain sized ship. (you can create a calculater for this). This will cause a re-spawn of the wormhole. Since you have triggered it your probes will already be in ideal position. You scan for the new wormhole and are likely te be the first to find it. If it connects to K-space you close it using the "even"-trick again. When its W-space you make sure no other wormholes are present in that new W-system. You are now completely safe. Both W-systems connect only to each other and nobody but you and your friends are in there. You can go to sleep. Since most wormholes are connected to W-systems and most of these W-systems contain only one wormhole the chance that a re-spawn of these other wormholes will connect a K-system to one of "your" two W-systems is extremely low: if a wormhole collapses it will most likely will stay connected to W-system it was already connected to. It would be rare if a completely new wormhole connection would be made between a K-system and a W-system it wasn't in before. Let alone one of your 2 W-systems (out of 2500). It is therefore most likely that your two W-systems will not be connected to a K-system any time soon. At a time that suits you you can remove the wormhole and try to find a K-system that suits you. When you have to sleep you make sure you find a W-system again. And you can keep doing this. Clearly the last assumption is critical. So you can fix this by a higher wormhole vs W-system ratio. Another possible fix would be to make (some) wormholes only detectable from one side: this would take away the initiative advantage. Regards, M.M.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:25:00 - [1269] miss moon a few ways to overcome this allow up to perhaps 5000 connections to wspace this might represent 2 current wspace connectiosn to every system - this would make it more possible that if someone logs off that someone else might find a way into youre wspace system. I think making and keeping them 2 way and scannable from 2 sides remembering logistics needs not be made impossible Another option is each wsystem up to 5000 links would always link to a w and a k system or at least 2 k systems Remember ccp also stated some wormholes will be kk kw wk and ww ( some some wormholes wont go into wspace but will randomly link 2 k systems so a dynamic number pahers it might be possible for a wspace link to go higher than 1 active at ocne perhaps up to 8 links But with proper testing and ccp balancing and the fact that unless u have a sizeable corp in a wsapce area and the random anture of the mass and timer ( some might be as little as 20 minutes) and the chances of yes someone else finding youre link that it would make it less predicatable. OPen up the amount of connections from a baseline of 2500 up to a maximum of 10000 active at once and keep it random like anamolies and u might be able to reduce any exploits like u have shown possible
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:32:00 - [1270] After reading the blog/thread about the new NPC AI that will be used in W-space (and a few select other areas), intentionally isolating yourself sounds like it will be a dangerous idea in and of itself. Sure, you'll keep other people from bothering you but these NPCs will fight more like pvp players and not brainless 'farm me' idiots, and probably podkill you too if they ever get the chance. By isolating a pocket of W space you ensure you can farm it to your heart's content, but if anyone in your expedition dies they can't get back, though that's not really relevant if you're on a one-way mission, I'll admit. I don't think macros will be an issue. The rats in w space won't have bounties, and your average ISK farmer won't be able to find his way back, won't have enough room to store any significant amount of loot, and from all the macro/RMT farmer behavior we've seen before it seems like they won't be interested in something that has this level of risk. Why people keep asking for rats with bounties and CONCORD baffles me - it makes absolutely no sense. My money says most of our concerns about POS spam and being able to farm in peace will be addressed by the rats themselves. I'm sure pvp can and will happen in w space but it will be difficult for roving gangs of pirates if the bears are all fit for pvp.

Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:37:00 - [1271] Originally by: tropic89 Devs, please explain to me how making these wormholes isnt the biggiest backstab to the regular players of eve. Let me explain: Pilot named Rffrwwe, who we see in his trusty raven in 1/2 the 0.0's of eve, has his trusty npc corp alt find a wormhole, he then takes his raven and disapears into oblivion ratting his isk for the isk selling company, totally happy that the wormhole will be closing behind him. Please tell me this isnt true. Why would the new NPC's have bounties? I bet they'll be like rogue drones and drop only tech3 mods/parts and t1 turrets and such. Pretty useless for a chinaman. ----------------- Friends Forever
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:43:00 - [1272] im still in favour for those living out there that and the fact some items might be hard to sell that some form of bounty system or perhaps existing pirate corps might pop up in wspace combat anamolies and sigs. Perhaps random they could be low bounty types with a focus on items brought out. But im guessing that if u want some isk u just find a link from youre wspace pos out to kspace 0.0 or low sec do some ratting keep an eye on the timer and mass and get back into wspace before it collapses
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:49:00 - [1273] MM, where was it stated that most WH's will only connect back to W space? Thought it was the opposite from what I read. Even if that's the case, sitting and babying a single system everyday, for months on end should give certain rewards, and, it doesnt completely eliminate someone from stumbling onto the system. That's all it takes. POSs are the true problem in W space, and that can be solved by: A - No reinforcement of POSs in W space B - Tiny PG and CPU for all POSs in W space. So tiny in fact, that all sizes of POSs will only be able to fit a ship main arry/moon miner/ore reproccesor AND a small gun or two. This will allow a group of RR BS's to take down a POS in W space w/o crazy numbers. It will also enable small corps to take large alliance's resource. It might be difficult to hold onto good moons for any time, but an alliance or corp that's alert, does the technique you've outlined, and has an alt logged into W space can prevent a high turnover rate. ----------------- Friends Forever
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:51:00 - [1274] Originally by: ollobrains2 im still in favour for those living out there that and the fact some items might be hard to sell that some form of bounty system or perhaps existing pirate corps might pop up in wspace combat anamolies and sigs. Perhaps random they could be low bounty types with a focus on items brought out. But im guessing that if u want some isk u just find a link from youre wspace pos out to kspace 0.0 or low sec do some ratting keep an eye on the timer and mass and get back into wspace before it collapses No bounties, ever. If farmers come to W space to farm, the most harm they'll do is flood the market with t3 components. That's a far better sin than adding trillions of ISK to the economy, as has been the case in the last year or so. ----------------- Friends Forever
Miss Moonwych	Posted - 2009.01.30 13:10:00 - [1275] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg MM, where was it stated that most WH's will only connect back to W space? Thought it was the opposite from what I read. What was said is that W-systems always have at least one wormhole (I guess to insure you won't get completely trapped). If the number of wormholes is (on avg) close to 1 in W-system then collapsing that would mean the new wormhole will also be connected to that W-system (otherwise it would have no WH in it at all, which from what I understand won't happen). Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Even if that's the case, sitting and babying a single system everyday, for months on end should give certain rewards, and, it doesnt completely eliminate someone from stumbling onto the system. That's all it takes. POSs are the true problem in W space, and that can be solved by: A - No reinforcement of POSs in W space B - Tiny PG and CPU for all POSs in W space. So tiny in fact, that all sizes of POSs will only be able to fit a ship main arry/moon miner/ore reproccesor AND a small gun or two. This will allow a group of RR BS's to take down a POS in W space w/o crazy numbers. It will also enable small corps to take large alliance's resource. It might be difficult to hold onto good moons for any time, but an alliance or corp that's alert, does the technique you've outlined, and has an alt logged into W space can prevent a high turnover rate. True. POS-es are what keeps you safe when someone enters you system. So they are problematic. But given the above it would make it even easier to be safe (and fueled). Regards, M.M. PS. I do wonder though what happens if you collapse a WH that is connected to two W-systems (and these W-systems are not connected to anything else). Since both would need a WH-connection logically the same connection would have to be spawn...
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 14:04:00 - [1276] * You will be able to drop more than one probe in a grid Good, but... * Probe scan ranges can be adjusted via a drag and drop interface in the 3D map, removing the need for multiple probe types Disappointing. * Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions Welcome the good old deep safe points 1000au away from known space? * Scanning will now use triangulation to refine and improve accuracy of scan results That's good, but... * You can recall probes for re-use at a later point and time Sounds right as I suppose they will be more expensive. * The transition from ship view to 3D Solar System view to Universe Map view has been made near instant, allowing for quick switching between them Long time demanded change. But let me explain 2 things. 1. You can't make space bigger by adding more systems, until the amount of them increased exponentially. That said, you should add not 43% but 900% new systems to make space big enough to impose any significant logistics problem. I'm pretty sure new wormholed systems will be in range of a carrier jump, so it will not make any problem to reach them once they discovered. 2. Removing existing exploration scheme is removing mind competition from game. The precise art of placing probes to cover it all in a whole. Are you happy to do so? Will we see mindless "explorers" who scan without brain involved, just because they reached certain number of skillpoints?
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2009.01.30 15:40:00 - [1277] Originally by: Tonto Auri * Probe scan ranges can be adjusted via a drag and drop interface in the 3D map, removing the need for multiple probe types Disappointing. Do we know how the changeable range will affect the scan-strength of the probes? I would assume that if you tell your probes to cover as much space as possible, they'd have the least possible strength and might not find everything. [fake edit]I didn't read the entire thread, so perhaps it's been answered already. Doubt it, though.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.01.30 15:45:00 - [1278] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg No reinforcement of POSs in W space That hopefully is completely out of the question!! Only the super-alliances who has a 23/7 coverage of all the timezones will then benefit from it. As far as I understand, CCP wants the small people to get best benefits from it and not again those super-alliances dominating everything. No reinforcements would put the small people at a huge disadvantage. We certainly do not need that.
Solanio	Posted - 2009.01.30 16:35:00 - [1279] "This is chaos!" some feedback/ideas regarding POS issue What about not-allowing normal K-space POSs in W-space, but therefore coming up with a new type of POS especially suited for W-space? These could be invented from existing POS blueprints (like T2) and require W-space materials/loot to build? I think this could be an advantage in terms of e.g. roleplay justification (need special materials from W-space to build POS that can withstand special W-space conditions) as well as no need to think about balancing existing POSs for use in both K- or W-space. This could even be extended to POS modules, etc. regarding 1-way / 2-way wormholes tricky issue as pointed out by many, we probably need to see how clever people will become in possibly (ab)using this, I dont know, maybe wormholes that are found first in/from W-space and connect to K-space should only be 1-way, or allow less mass back through into W-space regarding rats and AI, etc due to being a more casual player atm I am personally not so much in favour of having to coordinate too much with alot of others to do this W-space exploration, but we'll see.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 16:37:00 - [1280] Originally by: CCP Prism X Motherships, wormholes and High-Sec space! Seems to be a fairly popular question for some reason so I thought I'd touch a bit on that and how we work. Fact: Certain types of ships cannot enter certain types of space. Fact: We are making wormholes that can lead to certain types of space. From that we can deduce that we will be making wormholes that can lead to space where certain ships cannot enter. I kind of feel like I have answered the question at this point. If ship type X cannot enter space of type A then it really doesn't matter whether ship type X wants to take a stargate, wormhole or the bus to get there. It can't enter. I've asked you already, and it is the one again. In all the God's love, please stop imposing restrictions behind the expectation. "You can't cyno in/side/out of W-system - Why? - It's far from any reaches of Cynojumps" - understandable, right? "You can't clonejump in/out of W-space - Why? - We don't want it to happen..." - not understandable and against game logic. You can do a medical clone jump but not JC - why? Used technology is effectively the same, by your own articles. Or am I reading it wrong? Quote: Much like I'm not allowed to use the Women Locker Rooms regardless of whether I try to sneak in, disguise myself or access the security cameras. If I somehow manage to I'm still breaking the law. We're in lawless space, you know... Originally by: CCP Whisper System Naming: The systems are not going to be named, and once you jump through you should not see any information regarding name, constellation or region in the upper left-hand corner as you would in known space. And no, you will not see where a wormhole leads before you jump through. All you can see is the information regarding how much mass and time remains of its initial allocation. Aren't you just said that my skills in astrogation is effectively null? If you can't prevent me from pulling SystemID from API, there's no point to hide it ingame. It's enough to know that you can't know where wormhole leading to unless you traverse it to see that in person. Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Originally by: Tonto Auri * Probe scan ranges can be adjusted via a drag and drop interface in the 3D map, removing the need for multiple probe types Disappointing. Do we know how the changeable range will affect the scan-strength of the probes? Yes, lowered range = strengthened scan. WTS Reading Comprehension skillbook. Quote: [fake edit]I didn't read the entire thread, so perhaps it's been answered already. Doubt it, though. It has been answered. It's enough to read such threads by blue posts only to get points on things that devs feel to be worth answering, and probe range/strength was one of them. -- Thanks CCP for cu

Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 16:40:00 - [1281] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 27/01/2009 12:54:12 read the devgblog, scanned all the bluebar posts. looks ok so far ... this I got frome the bluebars: 1. no clone jumping into W space 2. no cynos in W space Now the big question: Will it be possible to jump/bridge FROM W space ? I am thinking more BlackOps than Titans. I imagine it like this: 1. corp finds a wormhole and sends in a scout. 2. scout reports all ok, blackops with a few transports of fuel come through wormhole 3. rest of corp opens covert cyno on K space 4. corp jumps into W space via black ops bridge Now this has certain limitations as the BlackOps can only bridge a limited set of ships, but it still allows for a decent sized gang to enter without using the wormhole as such and also leave by the same means. Will the above also be considered exploit or explicitly prevented ? (I admit I have 0 knowledge how the BlackOps bridge works) If it is far from regular cyno ranges, Black Ops bridge can't handle it, even... -- Thanks CCP for cu
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.30 16:45:00 - [1282] Originally by: Tonto Auri * Probes can be repositioned in the solar system map using a drag and drop interface and will warp to their specified positions Welcome the good old deep safe points 1000au away from known space? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=24#716 Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Originally by: Tonto Auri * Probe scan ranges can be adjusted via a drag and drop interface in the 3D map, removing the need for multiple probe types Disappointing. Do we know how the changeable range will affect the scan-strength of the probes? I would assume that if you tell your probes to cover as much space as possible, they'd have the least possible strength and might not find everything. [fake edit]I didn't read the entire thread, so perhaps it's been answered already. Doubt it, though. Yes, it will. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=982776&page=24#717 Lots of info on that page from Greyscale. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Xailia Unsteady Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.30 16:53:00 - [1283] Originally by: Tonto Auri "You can't clonejump in/out of W-space - Why? - We don't want it to happen..." - not understandable and against game logic. You can do a medical clone jump but not JC - why? Used technology is effectively the same, by your own articles. Or am I reading it wrong? Clone jumping uses a passive brain scan to transfer your consciousness. Emergency brain scans destroy the brain atom by atom in order to transfer your consciousness almost instantaneously. This does explain why you can't clone jump out of w-space, but as I see it doesn't explain why you can't jump into w-space. The method of transmission should be identical, even if the scanning process isn't. "The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 16:56:00 - [1284] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Miss President Next, please consider that exploration career has always involved lots of specialization. By the sound of your blog "making it faster and easier to use" you make it sound like EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMA will be able to do it. The probe system is sort of moving in two directions at once. The current system is difficult to learn but once you know how to do it the only "hard" part is making midwarp bookmarks to cover awkward planets. And it is the game as per definition. Using brain to achieve the goal. Quote: It's also got a very high effective barrier of entry skill-wise if you want to find things in a reasonably quick time. It's not a problem if you really want to dedicate yourself to that area. Quote: The new system should be easier to learn to the point where you know roughly what you're trying to do and roughly how to do it, and will have a lower barrier to entry skill-wise. As i'm read your blog and answers in this thread, you nerfing it to the point where all you need is get a proper ship, jump in system, launch probes and collect data. Same as you farming missions - you get a Navy Raven, warp into mission space and activate your launchers. Then collect loot. No mind involved, 100% automation. Where is the game went? Quote: However, those skills will still give people an edge and, more importantly, the speed at which you can find things should vary much more significantly according to the player-skill of the person doing the probing. We want everyone to be able to have a go and succeed (eventually), but we also want people who've taken the time to skill up and learn the system to have a noticeable advantage. Nah, just buy a trained char and go at will... why bothering? There's no game any more. Quote: We've not finalized activation yet; we have discussed doing it by proximity, and it might well go in like that Would be interesting. However, that would be good to be able to tell your probe to go in and collect data instead of giving you data on a platter once you discover the WH. That also will be a good game for those who's already inside, they could decide to camp gate and see if any probes going in (means, someone found a WH) and if they do not want visitors, they could simply destroy probe before it get back to hole and send any results to owner. And that would notice the owner that someone in there already... and so on... THAT's the game. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 17:07:00 - [1285] Wormhole badwidth limit, Capital ships, highsec and imposed restriction. Dear CCP, dunno why easiest solutions do not arise from you and need to be brought by players, but here's one. As it has been suggested already, let wormholes have single Masstime parameter, not two "mass and time". If you want to throw bigger ship than wormhole can handle, say, you want to bring a capital into wormhole leading to highsec (thus can't handle it's mass), then it can abortively collapse, dropping said capital into nearest W-system. I'll let yourself define that "nearest". More benefits from single Masstime value: You can let players see it without any added parameters, said that, player will never know if he was the first who have found it, or not. All he see is the remaining bandwidth of that wormhole. Unless it is extremely low, however, indicating significant mass of ships passed through already.
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2009.01.30 17:08:00 - [1286] Originally by: tropic89 Devs, please explain to me how making these wormholes isnt the biggiest backstab to the regular players of eve. Let me explain: Pilot named Rffrwwe, who we see in his trusty raven in 1/2 the 0.0's of eve, has his trusty npc corp alt find a wormhole, he then takes his raven and disapears into oblivion ratting his isk for the isk selling company, totally happy that the wormhole will be closing behind him. Please tell me this isnt true. This is what could happen: - Isk seller closes wormhole to farm in peace. - New wormhole access spawns in Rancer - Rancer pirates find wormhole .... you can guess the rest
Dnai Hsrang	Posted - 2009.01.30 17:54:00 - [1287] I have had enough reading about what sounds like an awesome free expansion. Get this on SISI so I can try it out!!!
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.30 18:46:00 - [1288] Originally by: AleRiperKilt - Isk seller closes wormhole to farm in peace. - New wormhole access spawns in Rancer - Rancer pirates find wormhole .... you can guess the rest There's no isk to farm. (Likely) And _THE RATS_ won't let him farm in peace. (You did read up on the new AI, did you not?)
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 18:55:00 - [1289] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: AleRiperKilt - Isk seller closes wormhole to farm in peace. - New wormhole access spawns in Rancer - Rancer pirates find wormhole .... you can guess the rest There's no isk to farm. (Likely) And _THE RATS_ won't let him farm in peace. (You did read up on the new AI, did you not?) No AI can overcome player mind, unless it designed to be unbeatable at all (like CONCORD) -- Thanks CCP for cu
Daggermark	Posted - 2009.01.30 19:03:00 - [1290] Originally by: Onyx Asablot [remember in Elite jumping into the unknown for as far as your fuel would take you :) I remember that :) Do you also remember trying to land on a planet mannualy without a landing computer and missjudging it for your ship to go boom !!!

Hathor Brutus	Posted - 2009.01.30 19:27:00 - [1291] xpost(tm) - well just parts: I would assume that all that weird radiation in W-space will interfere with the inertial dampers and stabilizers that allow a POS to be anchored. What I would expect would be some sort of forward logistics base / C&C module for carriers to allow those to fulfill one more logistical role. I guess that could be applied to the Orca as well, but atm I can't come up with something to trade for the increased survivability one would get. I posted some stuff(TM) here, regarding the new NPC and such.
GateScout	Posted - 2009.01.30 20:06:00 - [1292] Originally by: tropic89 he then takes his raven and disapears into oblivion ratting his isk for the isk selling company How, exactly, is he gaining isk? Ratting for isk comes from bounties. Are their bounties in W-Space? Probably not. Try again.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.01.30 21:35:00 - [1293] [OFF TOPIC] To type "soonÖ" all you have to do is hold the ALT key and press 0153 in succession on your numpad [/OFF TOPIC] And just so you people get this straight. W-Space is never secure or locked down, there can be more than one wormhole spawned in W-Space, there is only one RULE applied to W-Space and that is that there is ALWAYS at least ONE WH in a W-Space system, but there can be fifteen of them and even more if the random generator hit's the jackpot. (At least that is what i understand) Re-read all dev posts in this thread if you have a question as it has most likely been answered already. And it has most likely been asked! And don't assume about things that has already been answered as it adds to the confusion and people start threatening to emo rage quit. --------------- Opinions? Yes they belong to me, not my corp!
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.01.30 23:06:00 - [1294] Question: What will happen to multiple probe BPOs when the new scanning system is introduced? If I have 22 bpos of sift, comb, pursuit, and quest probes will they all just turn into the 2 types? In that case I should flog all of my bpos asap
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.30 23:08:00 - [1295] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Galena Technetium Give me the reasons why a "carebear" should enter this space at all. How does 2.72bil a week at current market prices sound? but I might get shot at in my 10mil after insurance raven
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.30 23:41:00 - [1296] Originally by: Infinion Question: What will happen to multiple probe BPOs when the new scanning system is introduced? If I have 22 bpos of sift, comb, pursuit, and quest probes will they all just turn into the 2 types? In that case I should flog all of my bpos asap They are considering what to do. I'd bank on them all being reduced along the lines you're thinking.
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.01.31 00:03:00 - [1297] Apologies if this has been asked before, 44 pages is a lot to go through - Is it possible to find wormholes leading from Normal space to Normal space/systems that are cynojammed - as in getting capitals into a cynojammed system that way? - Rage is Recruiting
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.31 00:20:00 - [1298] Edited by: Marlenus on 31/01/2009 00:21:49 I've read all 44 pages and don't remember the topic coming up. My gut is telling me it will be possible. Why would a cyno jammer affect wormhole spawning or travel? It will be rare I think for this to be logistically useful, because you're asking for a double rare -- wormholes with a mass budget for even one capital are supposed to be rare, and wormholes from normal space to normal space are also supposed to be rare. But it's certainly an entertaining prospect. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Ammath Amarr Mentis Fidelis Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2009.01.31 00:26:00 - [1299] I just want to go on record that disallowing cyno's into these pockets is crap. Plenty of pilots have access to capital ships, even Rorquals etc. I really just don't see the problem with it. I am in a smaller alliance, and disallowing smaller alliances from staking claim (even without sov) in these new pockets is bogus. Yes there is the potential for the big-alliances to try to dominate these. But with 43% more solar systems added to the game the sheer logistics of it would be very difficult especially with lots of pockets all over the place. This _WAS_ the chance for smaller alliances or even corps to take little pockets of territory to call 'home'. Now this is junk. The only light at the end of the tunnel is they say 'down the line' sov-mechanics may work in the pockets. If this is purely a "prevent the land-rush" mechanic I can somewhat justify it but I think the scattered pockets alone will deter massive colonization by the big powerblocks and if it doesn't no-cynos certainly wont inhibit these powerblocks from dominating them if they want to. I would like CCP to justify the no-cyno policy here, or in a dev blog. I would like to know why, as would a lot of others. I strongly encourage CCP to review this no-cyno policy... I do not think this limiting mechanic will accomplish what they want it to. Other than make any kind of logistical efforts by any corp or alliance VERY difficult. Ammath Un-natural Selection Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.01.31 01:50:00 - [1300] Quote: I am in a smaller alliance, and disallowing smaller alliances from staking claim (even without sov) in these new pockets is bogus Staking claim in W-space is bogus. I think CCP have made it clear that W-space systems are something they want to remain free for anyone to do whenever they like, and cynos will just make it stupid. If you want to cordon off your own little boys club go do it in 0.0 with all the other alliances and their little territory games. Cynos would turn W-space into exactly what 0.0 currently is, which would suck the big one. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.01.31 02:10:00 - [1301] Originally by: Ammath I strongly encourage CCP to review this no-cyno policy... I do not think this limiting mechanic will accomplish what they want it to. Other than make any kind of logistical efforts by any corp or alliance VERY difficult. Ammath Un-natural Selection This is what will happen if ccp alows cynos in w-space. You and your small corp/alliance have found a lucrative system and have just set up your pos and infrastucture and are explioting the resorces like mad making tons of isk. All is well until a roving bob/goon pet snoops you out decides its a nice system we'll take it, pops a cyno and poof all your hard work is now an expanding cloud of gas with the new owners setting up a few deathstar poses fueled by a jump bridge so you will never ever in the rest of your eve life be able to take it away from them. Is that really what you want? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Counterparty	Posted - 2009.01.31 03:32:00 - [1302] Originally by: Miss Moonwych First my assumptions: If a wormhole collapses it will always and immediatly re-spawn somewhere. The total amount of wormholes always stays the same. Each W-system has to have at least one wormhole. If a W-system only contains one wormhole and it collapses, a new wormhole is necessarily spawn in that system. Most W-systems contain only one wormhole. (true?) If these assumptions are correct. Very close except that last bit. Over half of w-systems will have 2 links. For w-systems that are a leaf with one link to another w-system, that next w-system will have at least 2 wormholes. Image each w-system as having a string (wormhole) dangling from it. The other end could attach to a w or k sytem. When a hole despawns, it just moves its gate within the system and attaches the dangling remote end to a new remote system. That means systems achieving your scenario where two w-systems are only attached to each other would extremely rare and fleeting. It would be interesting how often a partition in the graph of w-systems can occur where an island of w-systems connect just to themselves with no path to k-space. I bet such islands would be rare and fleeting.
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.31 06:52:00 - [1303] Please tell us we will be able to warp while running a scan.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.31 07:37:00 - [1304] ccp have stated that there will be some limited k-k wormholes also Cap ships are allowed through but u warp to the point and jump thro the wormhole, no direct cyno links and it should be this way as stated want 00 go play territories with the pvp junkies Or rent some space I think ccp has a nice balanced system here. My next bet is future expansions will see lots of 2500 systems added for the remaining 3 ancient races brining the total to 10000 as player numbers grow.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.31 10:22:00 - [1305] Originally by: Hugh Ruka I know the CPU reqs for the exploration launcher are not out yet, but will it fit on frigates without much compromise ? I do not see probe launcher fittings as a problem. All you need is free 'utility' slot and you can put even the full 220 cpu launcher in there even on frigates. Just keep it offline until needed, then offline your mods and online it. Yeah it takes a while, but it's better than being 'stuck'. Most likely full launcherful of probes (even if you dont carry spares) will be enough to last for a while, as their expiration timer will reset when you scoop them up.
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari Katsu Response Unit	Posted - 2009.01.31 10:22:00 - [1306] Originally by: Farrellus Cameron Please tell us we will be able to warp while running a scan. Actually you are already able to warp during scans right now on Tranquility. At least thats what some of my mates say.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.31 11:01:00 - [1307] Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki Actually you are already able to warp during scans right now on Tranquility. At least thats what some of my mates say. I think he's just afraid CCP will remove a totally unrelated feature just to be mean, so he's assuming the worst. CCP, please tell us you're not removing Large Shield Extender II's now that T3 is coming!
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.31 11:09:00 - [1308] t3 are direct ship modifications not t3 modules ( basically one module might be 50 m3 bigger drone bay on youre bs with a corressponding decrease in youre cargo bay) perhaps a 6 LY increase in youre black ops range with a 20km decrease in targetting range or a 50% reduction in warp speed Such modifications will allow more variance on t1 and t2 ships in addition to rigging slots
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.31 11:26:00 - [1309] Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 31/01/2009 11:26:53 Originally by: ollobrains2 t3 are direct ship modifications not t3 modules ( basically one module might be 50 m3 bigger drone bay on youre bs with a corressponding decrease in youre cargo bay) perhaps a 6 LY increase in youre black ops range with a 20km decrease in targetting range or a 50% reduction in warp speed Such modifications will allow more variance on t1 and t2 ships in addition to rigging slots I was mocking the guy who was upset about warping while scanning being nerfed, when there's been absolutely no mention of anything even close to that. But your understanding of T3 is way off. T3 will be 'ship sections/parts', not modules you fit on ships.
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.01.31 11:52:00 - [1310] *warning - incoming wall of text* This is without doubt one of the best soon to be implemented ideas CCP have come out with for a very very long time. It is almost a step back in time to when 0.0 space was worth living in, not due to the ratting and mining, not due to the moon mining, and not due to the lure of riches to be found there. There is a proportion of eve players that like myself are partial to just killing things, the thrill of the chase, the battle of wits, which when capitals were brought into game, and then the ease of which mass logistical re-supply using the same, made 0.0 a barren and desolate place, which in turn forced people such as myself to make a decision. The decision was a simple one, to either blob up and step into line with alliance overlords, or to look elsewhere for the mindless violence and daily kill fixes that no other game currently gives us. To empire we flocked, ironically the wants and need of the major alliances to make 0.0 safer for their members led (as usual- ref: speed nerf etc) to a backfire in alliances thoughts. Oh noes bad guys in empire killing us instead of 0.0!! I would like to thank you in advance for giving us K/W space, a place where the blobbers will not be able to roll in sov, a place where logistics will take time and be vulnerable to attacks, a place where we can roam freely to find a target, a place like 0.0 used to be, a place eve has cried out for to make the game exciting, dark, unknown, once again. Please resist the millions of requests asking you to change it, please stay true to your ideas, please do not bend to the collective will of the greedy power blocks who seek only to make isk in as safe an environment as possible. After all they already have 0.0 and low sec..... My very best regards, a very excited

Nabar Phargal Gallente Free Collective Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.01.31 13:55:00 - [1311] How similar is the wormhole going to be to a stargate? I saw the bit about possibly being activated by proximity. How big will it be? Could it be covered with a T2 large bubble perhaps? Will there be a 30 second invulnerability after worming? What about the 30 second cloak? Aggression timer? Will you appear on grid with the wormhole you just jumped through, or will you have to probe it down?
Sarin Adler Caldari SPANI Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.01.31 16:27:00 - [1312] Insurance, bounties, probably local, and any other 'Empire/Concord related' features, should not work in this w-space IMO, apart of inmersion breaking (we've got enough of this allready, like NPC piwats in secure space, and being able to kill hordes of em) it would be a shame if this new space is not used as a laboratory of new mechanics (PvP behaviour npcs, no Sov mechanics, etc.). And would be a great base to get some 'good input' into the system to suck some of the ISKbeing created.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.31 16:34:00 - [1313] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 Local and Wormhole Space! Removing local from 0.0 has far reaching mechanical implications which are well beyond the scope of the project. Removing local just from wormhole space has been brought up but is not considered a part of the package we absolutely need to deliver. So it's not a top priority and thus hasn't been decided on. I'm somewhat afraid of people feeling it's too instanced if we do and 0.0 is not delayed. But like I said, outside of our scope. Were local to go away from 0.0 that will apply to wormhole space as well. So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. Dedicated probe ships needed. Well, not strictly. The fitting on the core scanner isn't that restrictive so you can fit it on any other ship. But I definitely do not recommend probing out a wormhole and then switching to a BS with no probes, go through it and get lost in space. So, you need someone with probes there but it doesn't have to be his only role. Bookmarks! Man, I have* a hate/hate relationship with bookmarks. It's so intense that the 'have' over there was another 'hate' before I proof read this. But my old score with them aside. They will work in their relevant systems although you never know what systems that is, it's position towards the one you are currently in, the way there or if the great Space Hydra has eaten it. But you can use them to see if you have been there before, yes. I cry inside thinking of the umpteenthousand new little bookmark records in the DB. Edit: Also, there is no Space Hydra. /tinfoil right now! A little off topic but.. Although It wld be a bit of a disputed idea, adding "warp to 150" wld reduce heaps* of bookmarks being created for the very purpose of sniping. EVE history t2 precisions
Joe Smiles HOMELESS. The Shelter	Posted - 2009.01.31 17:44:00 - [1314] Can I "disappear" into a wormhole with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, yet still make isk? RL very often requires me to suddenly log, in fact I anticipate this and work it into my playstyle. I keep my hold filled with enough ammo for a LOTS of ratting, I setup safe's in every system... I prepare for the long haul without many resources or external help... Reloggin to find my corpies gone, the enemies blocking all the exits and nothing but ammo in the hold happens quite often. The only way to make money till I can "escape" is to to rat and explore, and I do just that. I actually have found it enjoyable risking it all on my own, while still making a few bucks. I intend to jump into wormholes knowing I might have to log 1 min later and the exit may close before I return... So what, can I prepare enough ahead of time before entering a wormhole INTENDING not to be able to return and make enough money? -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. -Will I be able to make isk by simply ratting like in 0.0? Do these NPC's have bounties at all? -Would ratting ( yes i know it wont be easy ratting ) be cost effective vs time? -Forget the risk of getting great loot and bringing it back... I want to know about just going in and surviving till you can get out... is it possible to simply ROAM wormholes for fun and profit? I would go on, but I have to go suddenly ( RL strikes again )... :P
Constance Harme	Posted - 2009.01.31 22:23:00 - [1315] Originally by: Joe Smiles -Will I be able to make isk by simply ratting like in 0.0? Do these NPC's have bounties at all? -Would ratting ( yes i know it wont be easy ratting ) be cost effective vs time? It will be very likely that there will be no bounties on the rats, so all profit will have to come from selling rat loot and maybe ore when you return from the wormhole.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.31 23:28:00 - [1316] Originally by: Joe Smiles Can I "disappear" into a wormhole with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, yet still make isk? RL very often requires me to suddenly log, in fact I anticipate this and work it into my playstyle. I keep my hold filled with enough ammo for a LOTS of ratting, I setup safe's in every system... I prepare for the long haul without many resources or external help... Reloggin to find my corpies gone, the enemies blocking all the exits and nothing but ammo in the hold happens quite often. The only way to make money till I can "escape" is to to rat and explore, and I do just that. I actually have found it enjoyable risking it all on my own, while still making a few bucks. I intend to jump into wormholes knowing I might have to log 1 min later and the exit may close before I return... So what, can I prepare enough ahead of time before entering a wormhole INTENDING not to be able to return and make enough money? -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. -Will I be able to make isk by simply ratting like in 0.0? Do these NPC's have bounties at all? -Would ratting ( yes i know it wont be easy ratting ) be cost effective vs time? -Forget the risk of getting great loot and bringing it back... I want to know about just going in and surviving till you can get out... is it possible to simply ROAM wormholes for fun and profit? I would go on, but I have to go suddenly ( RL strikes again )... :P Point 1.) This is very likely to depend on the specific player. How easy it actually is we won't know yet. However, lets assume for a second that you can fuel a pos right now. If you lived in one system with all the right things, then in theory you could bring a pos in there and various arrays and be in there for an indeterminate period oftime. Point 2.)I don't know why NPCs in fully unknown space that no one actually knows about would be wanted by CONCORD. However, if you can get the stuff above, ISK will not be an immediate concern. Point 3.) This is a fairly subjective question and will differ from person to person. Point 4.) I would assume that is the purpose. However, the profit is likely contingent like you said, on being able to get back to sell whatever.
xaja	Posted - 2009.02.01 03:06:00 - [1317] Don't stop PrismX from making 10,000 more star systems... we need more space! EVE feels as crowded as a mall parking lot just before Xmas ... _____________________________________ I'm Paper; Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
onyu	Posted - 2009.02.01 03:28:00 - [1318] Originally by: Joe Smiles Can I "disappear" into a wormhole with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, yet still make isk? I intend to jump into wormholes knowing I might have to log 1 min later and the exit may close before I return... So what, can I prepare enough ahead of time before entering a wormhole INTENDING not to be able to return and make enough money? -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. -Will I be able to make isk by simply ratting like in 0.0? Do these NPC's have bounties at all? -Would ratting ( yes i know it wont be easy ratting ) be cost effective vs time? -Forget the risk of getting great loot and bringing it back... I want to know about just going in and surviving till you can get out... is it possible to simply ROAM wormholes for fun and profit? Sounds like what all the neut ISK farmers already do in 0.0: Sit in some system, rat the belts and log out immediately when anyone else shows up, then check every half hour if the system is clear again...
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.01 03:29:00 - [1319] Quote: Can I "disappear" into a wormhole with NO INTENTION OF RETURNING, yet still make isk? Why do you still need ISK if you have no intention of returning? There will be no market to speak of in these systems. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Joe Smiles HOMELESS. The Shelter	Posted - 2009.02.01 05:44:00 - [1320] Why do I need isk? I like money. lol. I need money to pay the bills, feed my market orders. I like my ships to eventually make money, pay for themselves. It's kinda a goal. Who cares really. I just wanna know if it's possible to do so.

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.01 06:02:00 - [1321] Originally by: Joe Smiles Why do I need isk? I like money. lol. I need money to pay the bills, feed my market orders. I like my ships to eventually make money, pay for themselves. It's kinda a goal. Who cares really. I just wanna know if it's possible to do so. Afaik from all the dev replys on the subject there will be no isk faucets in w-space just isk sinks until you bring the valuable commodities you have gathered to an empire market. However there is one possibility to play as your indicating and that would be to have the market come to you. Build relationships with market traders or industry producers and they can send cargo ships with needed supplies to your system to pick up your goods for whatever amount of isk or trade you hammer out. If you want a leg up on how I think the market dynamics of w-space will end up do a google of my corp name and read up.
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.01 10:46:00 - [1322] This seems to be by far the most interesting expansion of my eve career, I am VERY excited! Finally something interesting to do as a small corp/alliance.
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.01 10:53:00 - [1323] Originally by: Joe Smiles -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. From what I can understand from the dev blog, yes. The system will be a static star system somewhere, but the entry/exit point will move and spawn in random places in normal space and within that system. It will be extremely cool if it really works like that. Obviously the moving entry/exit point is meant to make it hard on logistics for permanent stay. Id be very surprised if theres no bounty rats in there.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.01 12:04:00 - [1324] Originally by: Zey Nadar Id be very surprised if theres no bounty rats in there. Well, then either you or me is going to wake up to a surprise on March the 10'th. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.01 12:55:00 - [1325] Originally by: Zey Nadar Originally by: Joe Smiles -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. From what I can understand from the dev blog, yes. The system will be a static star system somewhere, but the entry/exit point will move and spawn in random places in normal space and within that system. It will be extremely cool if it really works like that. Obviously the moving entry/exit point is meant to make it hard on logistics for permanent stay. Id be very surprised if theres no bounty rats in there. I can't imagine that CCP would allow bounties on w-space rats. If they did they would completely bypass the problem of getting the ISK out of w-space, which doesn't make any sense at all.
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.01 13:12:00 - [1326] I dont really mind either way. Youre propably right in that there shouldnt be bounties in there, only collectable resources.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.01 16:40:00 - [1327] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Zey Nadar Originally by: Joe Smiles -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. From what I can understand from the dev blog, yes. The system will be a static star system somewhere, but the entry/exit point will move and spawn in random places in normal space and within that system. It will be extremely cool if it really works like that. Obviously the moving entry/exit point is meant to make it hard on logistics for permanent stay. Id be very surprised if theres no bounty rats in there. I can't imagine that CCP would allow bounties on w-space rats. If they did they would completely bypass the problem of getting the ISK out of w-space, which doesn't make any sense at all. I can't see why there shouldnt be bounties on the NPC rats. It all depends on if there is to be any type of settled exisitence within w-space or if it will only be transitory in nature. Its entirely possible for example that we could see the equivalent of trade caravans in the future (like a mobile market) selling ammo / drones etc actually in w-space. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 17:24:00 - [1328] Originally by: Cailais Its entirely possible for example that we could see the equivalent of trade caravans in the future (like a mobile market) selling ammo / drones etc actually in w-space. I've given this some thought and with current game mechanics, that would be a very difficult line of work to be in. Not impossible, but the transaction risks are enormous and very difficult to minimize. I do, however, have a vision of a "trading post" vessel in some future expansion, perhaps about half the size of an Orca with the cargo capacity of a fully expanded Itty V. It would have a logistics mode you could put it in that makes it immobile and very difficult to gank, and it would have a hangar that allowed the pilot to open trade windows (like the ones in station) with adjacent ships. Obviously it would be up to the pilot to provide security before (and especially after) putting it into trade mode. We don't want a perfectly safe enterprise here, just another way of enabling trade in remote regions of W-Space.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.01 17:51:00 - [1329] Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: Cailais Its entirely possible for example that we could see the equivalent of trade caravans in the future (like a mobile market) selling ammo / drones etc actually in w-space. I've given this some thought and with current game mechanics, that would be a very difficult line of work to be in. Not impossible, but the transaction risks are enormous and very difficult to minimize. I do, however, have a vision of a "trading post" vessel in some future expansion, perhaps about half the size of an Orca with the cargo capacity of a fully expanded Itty V. It would have a logistics mode you could put it in that makes it immobile and very difficult to gank, and it would have a hangar that allowed the pilot to open trade windows (like the ones in station) with adjacent ships. Obviously it would be up to the pilot to provide security before (and especially after) putting it into trade mode. We don't want a perfectly safe enterprise here, just another way of enabling trade in remote regions of W-Space. Trade within w-space is probably possible within the current mechanics as you say. I could envisage 'corps' based upon a loose trade network - e.g the individual pilots operate independently until they happen to meet and then trade internally. Thats dependant upon how 'deep' one can progress into w-space of course, and the availability / ease of simply returning to k-space. will be interesting to see if anything like this evolves (however unlikely that might be). C.
Polysynchronicity Amarr MEK Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.01 18:12:00 - [1330] What I'd like to see, personally, is an anchorable "beacon" structure that you place at a star. It would be visible systemwide, have a decent amount of HP, and you'd be able to set its name and description. So if someone's interested, they can buy a beacon, anchor it in a W-Space system, and name the beacon - something like "Welcome to Polyland" or w/e. If someone else comes along and doesn't like it, they can blow up the beacon (and optionally, replace it) ---------- Now recruiting:

Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 20:24:00 - [1331] Originally by: Cailais Trade within w-space is probably possible within the current mechanics as you say. I could envisage 'corps' based upon a loose trade network - e.g the individual pilots operate independently until they happen to meet and then trade internally. Now, that is a nifty idea. Trading with strangers is probably too dangerous to become routine, but a corp structure for wanderers, that exists primarily to secure trades? That could work nicely!
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.01 21:00:00 - [1332] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 01/02/2009 21:00:48 Quote: I can't see why there shouldnt be bounties on the NPC rats. It all depends on if there is to be any type of settled exisitence within w-space or if it will only be transitory in nature. There shouldn't be any possibility for settled existence tbh, otherwise it'll turn into exactly what 0.0 is now. As I asked before, why do you need ISK bounties if you plan to spend forever somewhere with no market? If your answer includes an alt residing in K-space, then you really don't plan to stay permanently hey? In that case, rat or mission when you're back in K-space. Wormhole rats do not need bounties.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 21:02:00 - [1333] I had another idea, probably too server-intensive but hella fun. Imagine if you could buy and carry "messenger drones" in various sizes, at a cost of a few million ISK (to reduce spammy use). They would accept small volumes (say, 10 cubic meters, 50 cubic meters, and 200 cubic meters) of cargo from the person who launches them, and have a programmed destination station. Upon launch, they begin a travel algorithm. Stargate in system? If yes, set autopilot to destination, start jumping. No stargate in system? Warp to a random safespot, begin probing for a wormhole. When one is found, jump through it. Loop back to start. Upon reaching the destination station, they would dock and be found waiting in the owner's ship hangar, available for repackaging and re-use. Of course, at any point on their journey, people would be able to intercept and blow up these mobile treasure chests. They should be fairly fast, have a small sig radius, and be tricky to probe out, but if they are priced so that they're usually full of decent loot, they'll be worth chasing. This ads excitement everywhere along their route, and populates wormspace with a ton of mobile "lost" treasure. I think people would still use them, as long as they were balanced so that some of them tended to get through. Loot of medium value that would otherwise have to be abandoned? Load it into messenger probe, fire and forget.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.01 21:51:00 - [1334] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Zey Nadar Originally by: Joe Smiles -So will it be possible for extended stays? Solo stays. From what I can understand from the dev blog, yes. The system will be a static star system somewhere, but the entry/exit point will move and spawn in random places in normal space and within that system. It will be extremely cool if it really works like that. Obviously the moving entry/exit point is meant to make it hard on logistics for permanent stay. Id be very surprised if theres no bounty rats in there. I can't imagine that CCP would allow bounties on w-space rats. If they did they would completely bypass the problem of getting the ISK out of w-space, which doesn't make any sense at all. I can't see why there shouldnt be bounties on the NPC rats. It all depends on if there is to be any type of settled exisitence within w-space or if it will only be transitory in nature. Its entirely possible for example that we could see the equivalent of trade caravans in the future (like a mobile market) selling ammo / drones etc actually in w-space. C. THE most important reason to not have bounties on w-space rats is so that ISK farmers can't go into w-space and earn ISK and basically hide indefinitely from anyone who would kill them. That's why. If that wasn't an issue, I'd say go right ahead and have bounties on w-space rats.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:20:00 - [1335] Originally by: Bellum Eternus THE most important reason to not have bounties on w-space rats is so that ISK farmers can't go into w-space and earn ISK and basically hide indefinitely from anyone who would kill them. That's why. If that wasn't an issue, I'd say go right ahead and have bounties on w-space rats. ISK farmers can do pretty much this anywhere else in EVE, why should W-Space be any different? IF 'ordinary' players can make ISK through an activity, then ISK farmers by definition can do the same through repetitive action. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:37:00 - [1336] Quote: ISK farmers can do pretty much this anywhere else in EVE, why should W-Space be any different? IF 'ordinary' players can make ISK through an activity, then ISK farmers by definition can do the same through repetitive action. Why shouldn't W-space be different? Because if wormholes and the objectives were the same old **, I'd be thoroughly disappointed. Straight off the bat I'll ask the tired old question "What's wrong with ISK farming?". All the big alliances do it when their members rat belts all day long. It's a fundamental goal of EVE. Macroers and ISK sellers, they're a problem. ISK bounties give them instant rewards and the ability to keep doing their business by wiring acquired ISK to alts in high sec. non-isk rewards require them to at least try to get the goods back to stations to sell, getting a blockade runner to do the run. That gives people an opening to kill them at least, as opposed to the current "Enter system, pilot 'Asdjfghk' logs off and pings the system every half hour until it's clear" *****s. On top of that, ISK bounties are EVE-easy mode, just ask any mission runner. T3 needs to be a challenge. If this wasn't the case, you'd see a helluva lot more of the rouge-drone drone components/completed drones on the market.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:08:00 - [1337] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Bellum Eternus THE most important reason to not have bounties on w-space rats is so that ISK farmers can't go into w-space and earn ISK and basically hide indefinitely from anyone who would kill them. That's why. If that wasn't an issue, I'd say go right ahead and have bounties on w-space rats. ISK farmers can do pretty much this anywhere else in EVE, why should W-Space be any different? IF 'ordinary' players can make ISK through an activity, then ISK farmers by definition can do the same through repetitive action. C. Well then answer this much more important question: Why should these rats have a bounty? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Smurfprime	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:38:00 - [1338] Originally by: Cailais Its entirely possible for example that we could see the equivalent of trade caravans in the future (like a mobile market) selling ammo / drones etc actually in w-space. C. Rofl, Yeah that would be as profitable as running an indy through Rancer during primetime.... The only one to profit off of that idea would be the pirates who blow it up.
Kesha Cachet	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:47:00 - [1339] Is there any chance that the new scanning system will enable cloaked ships to be scannable?
Lone Gunman	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:15:00 - [1340] One thing that no one has so far mentioned is the effect this may have on other aspects of the game, specifically Factional Warfare. Since the logistical requirements are so extreme, you may need access to all of empire space to be able to re supply. If your corp is a member of a Militia you are effectively barred from half of Empire space. Now they are forcing you to choose which side of the sandbox to play in, you could probably do both but what a hassle? Now I know what pirates go through, except that was their choice, I resent having to be forced to choose one or the other, just not very well thought out as usual.

Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:15:00 - [1341] Quote: Rofl, Yeah that would be as profitable as running an indy through Rancer during primetime.... The only one to profit off of that idea would be the pirates who blow it up. You could do it as follows: 1. Load up an orca with small frigates and a cloak, appropriately named in ammo "bundles" full of that ammo. 2. Fly orca around W-space looking for people to buy ammo/supplies. 3. When ISK received for a purchase, pop a ship out with an alt, fly out to the destination and drop the ammo. Alternatively, take a chance and just arrive in the single ship before isk payment as a reassurance. If it gets popped you only lost that particular deal too. Maybe even run a half-payment up front deal so that if anything, you break even on a deal (you'd mark ammo up obviously). --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.
Mjr Kong	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:25:00 - [1342] You are participating in faction warfare by choice. Originally by: Lone Gunman One thing that no one has so far mentioned is the effect this may have on other aspects of the game, specifically Factional Warfare. Since the logistical requirements are so extreme, you may need access to all of empire space to be able to re supply. If your corp is a member of a Militia you are effectively barred from half of Empire space. Now they are forcing you to choose which side of the sandbox to play in, you could probably do both but what a hassle? Now I know what pirates go through, except that was their choice, I resent having to be forced to choose one or the other, just not very well thought out as usual.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.02 05:22:00 - [1343] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Bellum Eternus THE most important reason to not have bounties on w-space rats is so that ISK farmers can't go into w-space and earn ISK and basically hide indefinitely from anyone who would kill them. That's why. If that wasn't an issue, I'd say go right ahead and have bounties on w-space rats. ISK farmers can do pretty much this anywhere else in EVE, why should W-Space be any different? IF 'ordinary' players can make ISK through an activity, then ISK farmers by definition can do the same through repetitive action. C. Are you just being obtuse on purpose? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.02 05:49:00 - [1344] To the devs.. I think discussion has gone as far as it can go without more specifics. The most important bit of info would be clarifying the role WH space has in comparison to traditional 0.0 space for the long term. Then at least we could theorize on what is correct from an implementation standpoint.
Master Entreri Wildcat Federation ALLIANCE UNKNOWN	Posted - 2009.02.02 05:49:00 - [1345] Would it be possible for a corp to just up and disappear into WH space and operate out of it just by jumping from WH system to WH system? I know that there have been posts that said its built around NOT being able to maintain a permanent presence but I'm talking more about a nomadic operation then trying to claim the system.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:27:00 - [1346] If you got appropriate ammo drops, I can't see why not. You'd have to be lucky though.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:01:00 - [1347] Originally by: Master Entreri Would it be possible for a corp to just up and disappear into WH space and operate out of it just by jumping from WH system to WH system? I know that there have been posts that said its built around NOT being able to maintain a permanent presence but I'm talking more about a nomadic operation then trying to claim the system. If Amarr weapons are effective against the new rats then you will see lots of ships with lasor fits. Basically anything gallente and of course amarr would be perfect as t1 crystals last forever. Make sure you have a remote armor repper to patch up your drones and with luck and skill you could stay in w-space farming rats for t3 components until you run out of cargo space. Then just scan out an exit and if it leads to empire dump the goods in a station to contract it to an alt and pick up some spare whatever and go right back in and do it again. Yes I'll say nomadic life will be very viable for a smart crew.
Dan Grobag Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:17:00 - [1348] I was thinking that a W system could act as a "floating" vehicle, a corp could settle inside one then look at what the today worm portal lead to to choose their activity. "Hey look ! It lead to jita, let's sell our exotic crap and refill our pos with fuel" "Looks like today it move into the back of bob, let's make some fun with their mining/npc ops" Those are extremities but I can't seem to see what could prevent this behavior.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:46:00 - [1349] Originally by: Dan Grobag I was thinking that a W system could act as a "floating" vehicle, a corp could settle inside one then look at what the today worm portal lead to to choose their activity. "Hey look ! It lead to jita, let's sell our exotic crap and refill our pos with fuel" "Looks like today it move into the back of bob, let's make some fun with their mining/npc ops" Those are extremities but I can't seem to see what could prevent this behavior. Indeed. rubs hands together gleefully in anticipation inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Hon Kovell Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:48:00 - [1350] Originally by: CCP Prism X But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. How would you feel about a device that formed a wormhole, or 'pulled' a wormhole to you, in such a way that the wormhole could take more mass. Your ship and nearby ships, up to normal mass times X, get sucked in and wormhole collapses behind you. Downsides are that the destination is random and you have to find a new exit. So for exploration it's an expensive gamble that takes a bigger/heavier fleet further into W-space. As a weapon it works like your example. Alternately, Doomsday Mk2. Ships don't get destroyed, just thrown into a distant system. So it's like the current doomsday in effect but either more annoying or more exciting depending on outlook. On another matter, it's been hinted a lot that the locals object quite strenuously to being dismantled for parts. How do they feel about POS? Is it possible that a POS left up for too long may be forcibly removed by the locals?

Maric TheSecond	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:57:00 - [1351] Option for devs: Considering that proly there is no bounty - only salvage from rats, new AI and having probe launcher as a must; is it time to remove Salvager module to standard ship equipment like ship scaner? Or introduce Salvaging drones? If things stays this way many ship setups will be cripled having 2-3 non-combat modules (Probe launcher, Salvager and Tractor beam for BSs).
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:13:00 - [1352] as far as trading youre other option is if u come across some regular wspace customers is standings with trusted clients. I think 1 in 3 will probably lead to kspace, 1 in 6 probably to low sec or high sec so youre chances for regular refuel, rearm or even just escape for a bit to rat for isk or drop off modules assuming youre corp has 10-15 active at any time and peeps left behind in wspace to "let u back in" the i dont see any problems
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:23:00 - [1353] Small question (and if it's already been asked, sorry) which may be more appropriate to Greyscale's blog - you mention mass limitations on the wormholes - precisely what mass do you mean? Base ship mass? Total mass? Would the use of mass-influencing modules have any effect, e.g. armour plates? Whilst no bad thing per se, I can see shield tanking becoming more popular if it keeps the mass down... ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:23:00 - [1354] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Well then answer this much more important question: Why should these rats have a bounty? From what perspective? From a game design perspective if you have a lot of people switching from running missions (mission and bounty isk) and ratting (bounty isk) to W-Space (no bounty) then the inflow of isk into the universe is going to drop noticeably. Not necessarily a bad thing, but changes to the fundamental economy are always concerning. It also has the perverse effect of concentrating more of the isk inflow into the hands of macroers (who stay in K-space) compared to honest players who explore W-Space. Then there's risk vs reward. W-Space has a lot more risk (getting lost, getting owned by the more powerful rats). The developers have said that they want T3 to be roughly the same power as T2. In the long term that suggests that the prices for the components should be roughly comparable too, so where would the extra reward come from to compensate for the loss of bounty? In the short term this wont matter much as the demand for short supply T3 will be huge, but if a lot of it turns out to be not so desirable (like drone complexes) then the risk/reward balance could pretty easily get messed up in favour of the macroers. It's a lot easier to balance isk reward than it is to balance component drops. Just how many people use augmented drones, anyway? The new rats can nos, warp inhibit and webify. If the macroers are forced to go into W-Space in order to remain competitive then the chances of them dying will be substantially increased both to the harder rats and to other players. Roleplay wise it sounds as though the Sleepers are going to be hostile to the established Empire powers so there's no reason why they wouldn't put a bounty on Sleeper ships. I'm not totally convinced that they should have bounties, but I think that I'd be leaning that way if I was a developer.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:32:00 - [1355] id like to see combinations of sleeper rats and also some existing faction anamolies in wspace they could create a new we have discovered a covert blood raider wormhole system operation ( given the pirate factions are looking for them in the last chronicle) the rats could be modified to be harder officer or faction spawn perhaps or a chance. Perhaps 1/4 bounites of normal rats but slightly better drops.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:02:00 - [1356] Originally by: Strom Nekth Originally by: An Anarchyyt Well then answer this much more important question: Why should these rats have a bounty? From what perspective? From a game design perspective if you have a lot of people switching from running missions (mission and bounty isk) and ratting (bounty isk) to W-Space (no bounty) then the inflow of isk into the universe is going to drop noticeably. First place a bounty on those rats aint logic, second those system should not be for isk farmers, jumping trough a wormhole and go ratting to earn isk. If people want to kill rats for bounties that then they can go into 0.0. Why should this change any way the inflow of cash? People will lose ships there and so have to buy new ones, if they get low on cash then they back to do some mining, missions or any other way to make isk like always. The time some players spend in scanning the wormholes and trying to get any t3 part back to empire will have no effect on the economy of eve at all.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:38:00 - [1357] Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 02/02/2009 12:37:44 Quote: Option for devs: Considering that proly there is no bounty - only salvage from rats, new AI and having probe launcher as a must; is it time to remove Salvager module to standard ship equipment like ship scaner? Or introduce Salvaging drones? If things stays this way many ship setups will be cripled having 2-3 non-combat modules (Probe launcher, Salvager and Tractor beam for BSs). God gave you Marauders for a reason. That and you work as a team, not as a solo. I think people are forgetting these guys (hopefully, from the claims being made by devs) likely won't be solo-able.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:38:00 - [1358] Originally by: Cailais Its entirely possible for example that we could see the equivalent of trade caravans in the future (like a mobile market) selling ammo / drones etc actually in w-space. That would be so incredibly cool. Interestingly it would enable players to in essence duplicate the Thukker lifestyle - roaming, always on the move - though how one keeps roaming in groups whilst also logging in and out would be an interesting challenge... Originally by: Bellum Eternus I can't imagine that CCP would allow bounties on w-space rats. If they did they would completely bypass the problem of getting the ISK out of w-space, which doesn't make any sense at all. Plus from a perspective of roleplaying etc - when we get paid for killing pirate ships, it's CONCORD saying 'well done, a threat removed'. Unless the Sleepers (for those still worrying about who the NPCs will be) are deemed a threat, we most definitely wouldn't be paid to shoot them. Plus to quote the aforementioned dev blog: Originally by: CCP Ytterbium Why shoot them? Because they will guard and yield the very components needed for Tech3 ship production.
Maric TheSecond	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:55:00 - [1359] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 02/02/2009 12:37:44 Quote: Option for devs: Considering that proly there is no bounty - only salvage from rats, new AI and having probe launcher as a must; is it time to remove Salvager module to standard ship equipment like ship scaner? Or introduce Salvaging drones? If things stays this way many ship setups will be cripled having 2-3 non-combat modules (Probe launcher, Salvager and Tractor beam for BSs). God gave you Marauders for a reason. That and you work as a team, not as a solo. I think people are forgetting these guys (hopefully, from the claims being made by devs) likely won't be solo-able. CCP gave us Marauder for a reason but this reason is not exploring. That and not all people can/like work in group or can fly Maraurders.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.02.02 13:27:00 - [1360] Sin for the win! :P Droneboat (no ammo), 'free' hi-slots for cloak, probe-launcher, tractor beam, salvager. Armor tank: Med slots for analyzer, codebreaker. Can probe out the exit after a successfull 1 week MIA, and then after getting out, jump home if you happen to exit in hostile space. I can't really think of any solo-ship more suitable for the task. Unless you are going in to mine, setup POS or something else redicolous.

Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.02.02 14:15:00 - [1361] Originally by: Brixer Sin for the win! :P Droneboat (no ammo), 'free' hi-slots for cloak, probe-launcher, tractor beam, salvager. Armor tank: Med slots for analyzer, codebreaker. Can probe out the exit after a successfull 1 week MIA, and then after getting out, jump home if you happen to exit in hostile space. I can't really think of any solo-ship more suitable for the task. Unless you are going in to mine, setup POS or something else redicolous. I would hope it can be soloed in a BS type ship but based on the dev post you will need a few people. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=985287&page=4#111 Originally by: CCP Gangleri Some people solo lvl5 missions even though it is less profitable than doing lvl4 when measured in ISK per hour, those missions were never meant for solo play. But some people still do it. There simply comes a time when having more people is more efficient, and rightfully so, cooperation should be more efficient in most cases. Our goal for the Sleepers was to make each encounter more like a PvP battle, so if you bring a solo BS against a gang of Sleepers you are going to lose, hard. Unless you are that good, guess we'll have to see.
SolusLunes Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.02 14:24:00 - [1362] Edited by: SolusLunes on 02/02/2009 14:25:06 Edited by: SolusLunes on 02/02/2009 14:24:04 I'll make my post short, sweet, and to the point. First, however, put your tinfoil hats on! http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp?sid=806246278 Now look at the Shantytown Initiative. Tell me that wouldn't be an awesome idea. Also, since these pages haven't been updated in forever, I'm taking the disclaimer on the top of the page to be a lie. A DIRTY, DIRTY LIE. Why do I say it's a dirty, dirty lie? The mission overhaul bit is still on that page. What are we getting this Apocrypha? A mission overhaul. :D </tinfoil>
Sinistro	Posted - 2009.02.02 14:26:00 - [1363] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: Brixer Sin for the win! :P Droneboat (no ammo), 'free' hi-slots for cloak, probe-launcher, tractor beam, salvager. Armor tank: Med slots for analyzer, codebreaker. Can probe out the exit after a successfull 1 week MIA, and then after getting out, jump home if you happen to exit in hostile space. I can't really think of any solo-ship more suitable for the task. Unless you are going in to mine, setup POS or something else redicolous. I would hope it can be soloed in a BS type ship but based on the dev post you will need a few people. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=985287&page=4#111 Originally by: CCP Gangleri Some people solo lvl5 missions even though it is less profitable than doing lvl4 when measured in ISK per hour, those missions were never meant for solo play. But some people still do it. There simply comes a time when having more people is more efficient, and rightfully so, cooperation should be more efficient in most cases. Our goal for the Sleepers was to make each encounter more like a PvP battle, so if you bring a solo BS against a gang of Sleepers you are going to lose, hard. Unless you are that good, guess we'll have to see. link does not work for me, page not found we have to see as we dont know enough yet about the rats there and so all is pure speculation. ''if you bring a solo BS against a gang of Sleepers you are going to lose, hard'' there are other ships then bs's ingame and also tactics will play here a big part like in pvp
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:36:00 - [1364] Originally by: Brixer Droneboat (no ammo) I think that should read "Droneboat (no weapons, served on a platter for anyone scanning)". These NPCs are supposed to be intelligent - so the last I'd do were going in with drones as primary weapon. Also, someone wrote somewhere that with the new scanning system it should be easier to find mission-runner. I'm merely guessing now, but I'd say it'll make finding drone users even easier then. Drones are portable beacons right now anyway. In a system where (probably) not many are, it's going to be worse.
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:30:00 - [1365] Originally by: SolusLunes Edited by: SolusLunes on 02/02/2009 14:25:06 Edited by: SolusLunes on 02/02/2009 14:24:04 I'll make my post short, sweet, and to the point. First, however, put your tinfoil hats on! http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/plannedfeat.asp?sid=806246278 Now look at the Shantytown Initiative. Tell me that wouldn't be an awesome idea. Also, since these pages haven't been updated in forever, I'm taking the disclaimer on the top of the page to be a lie. A DIRTY, DIRTY LIE. Why do I say it's a dirty, dirty lie? The mission overhaul bit is still on that page. What are we getting this Apocrypha? A mission overhaul. :D </tinfoil> Uhm those pages where updateed very recently. ============= Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:51:00 - [1366] Now if the sleepers are THAT intelligent, they can pop your drones Guess we'll just have to wait and see. Not that I wanna give any ideas to the devs
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.02.03 00:25:00 - [1367] Edited by: Strom Nekth on 03/02/2009 00:28:13 Edited by: Strom Nekth on 03/02/2009 00:26:25 Originally by: cianide pro First place a bounty on those rats aint logic This is just a baseless statement on your part. If, in a new chronicle, masses of sleeper ships emerge out of wormholes and attack Concord and Empire then a bounty would be logical. If the Sleepers are just random wormhole inhabitants then it wouldn't be logical. The bounty logic depends on developer/storyline decisions that we don't know, so it is ridiculous to state that it 'aint logic' [sic]. Quote: , second those system should not be for isk farmers, jumping trough a wormhole and go ratting to earn isk. If people want to kill rats for bounties that then they can go into 0.0. Why not? Why not have the isk farmers go somewhere where it is easier to kill them? Quote: Why should this change any way the inflow of cash? People will lose ships there and so have to buy new ones, if they get low on cash then they back to do some mining, missions or any other way to make isk like always. The time some players spend in scanning the wormholes and trying to get any t3 part back to empire will have no effect on the economy of eve at all. I think you mis-understand my point. Running a mission or killing a ship with a bounty on it adds isk to the eve universe. Mining and selling modules just transfers isk around the universe (often actually decreasing it due to taxes). If you decrease the amount of cash entering the universe and increase the number of desirable goods at the same time then you could see deflation kicking in. As to it not having any effect on the economy, I think you're just making that up. You seriously think that T3 isn't going to affect the economy? If you'd been watching the markets you'd have seen that the upcoming expansion has already significantly affected parts of it.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.03 05:07:00 - [1368] amarr working with the drones, sleepers well im guessing some battle around that drone station of stations takes place and perhaps by blowing it up a vast amoung of wormholes are opened up in a catastrophic event, could this have collapsed the original eve gate
Tierius Fro	Posted - 2009.02.03 06:02:00 - [1369] I am an exploration junky, so I will be all over this. Sounds great!
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.02.03 06:30:00 - [1370] Ok Strom Nekth I will explain. Its not logic those rats will have bounties as the whole idea of those wormhole systems is exploration from unknown space due wormholes opened after a cataclysmic event. So we are invading their space. ccp Wisper wrote: ''First a bit of background musing. One of the criticisms that have been levied against EVE is that space is becoming crowded and that there really is no feeling of exploration.'' So the idea main idea is exploration, that is not ratting for bounties, we have plenty of 0.0 space for those who want that. ccp Wisper wrote: ''Wormholes will bring us to this new frontier, appearing all over New Eden as a result of a cataclysmic event, the nature of which we'll reveal in the coming months. These wormholes are unstable and will spawn and vanish randomly throughout the known universe. A pilot who stumbles across one of these stellar phenomena can fly through it and travel to unknown space, where there are no stargates or stations, just the unexplored void of a new solar system''

Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.03 06:31:00 - [1371] Quote: CCP gave us Marauder for a reason but this reason is not exploring. That and not all people can/like work in group or can fly Maraurders. lol, no. That reason is for hunting NPCs and recovering/hauling loot. All marauders can fit, when correctly fit: A full rack of appropriate weapons, salvager, tractor and a probe launcher and a tank. Gee, I wonder where that could become useful? And hey, I cant commit to regular time commitments to 0.0 alliance work, so guess what? I'm not part of an alliance. If you have particular RL commitments, or simply choose not to make the choices that allow you to perform a task in EVE, don't come crying for change when the tools are already at your disposal.
Madam Squishy Southern Cross Empire	Posted - 2009.02.03 09:21:00 - [1372] Current status of ICE FIELDS? (POSSIBLE AT ALL OR IMPOSSIBLE?) Also the current status of a CAPITAL ship? I saw one post saying something along the lines of some W space will NOT allow SOME types of ships at all. Is this still true or has the Mass allowance taken over and it is "Slim chance" YYRU YYUB ICUR YY4ME
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.03 09:22:00 - [1373] i think small bands of freelancers might form similiar to the original freelancer alliance in game or some small loosely aligned alliances might benefit from a wspace presense
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:01:00 - [1374] Will the wormholes be multiple colors to help 'visually' indicate their attributes possibly like mass remaining so it would like shift colors as it gets closer to 'dying' ============= Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:01:00 - [1375] Originally by: Strom Nekth Originally by: An Anarchyyt Well then answer this much more important question: Why should these rats have a bounty? From what perspective? From a game design perspective if you have a lot of people switching from running missions (mission and bounty isk) and ratting (bounty isk) to W-Space (no bounty) then the inflow of isk into the universe is going to drop noticeably. Not necessarily a bad thing, but changes to the fundamental economy are always concerning. It also has the perverse effect of concentrating more of the isk inflow into the hands of macroers (who stay in K-space) compared to honest players who explore W-Space. But I think this is fine since people have been talking about too much isk inserted to Eve currently, the effect of the wormhole exploration might reduce that which should be good thing.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:17:00 - [1376] im guess as far as wormholes dying perhaps a timer and mass countdown with a right click might reveal the stats perhaps a ship scanner might be required to get an accurate reading. Wormholes out of jita i am going to assume will quickly collapse maybe with interesting outcomes but some remote system ones might allow u more time to plan youre moves
JimBob Leeroy	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:14:00 - [1377] lol ok isk come in to the game the same way as money in to the real life, with the exception that the government here has no balance, but any economic system. any time you take components (labor included) and make something more valued, you have added isk(in this case) to the system, hence, mining adds to the system as much as rating does, building as well, but any one that profiteers really adds to it,ie: the old t2 builders. any time you destroy or use up you take out.since the government is the taxes, it only tries to balance the government's out, so taxes are not really taking out only balancing.and faction and officer drops are the real monster inputs, and with the cost of them so high that they are only used when they are not expected to be lost. in the end, it is hard to balance this, and they try hard here to do it, but you will notice that the ones that cry over this are normally the worse corporates in it. and yes mission running does hurt the economy, because there are few loses in it,but mining is as bad, but is more necessary, but the 0.0 rating in safer areas with the faction and officer drops are even worse. the big problem is that low sec is too dangerous for non ganged ppl, so any that are not the joiner types do little that is dangerous, the WH's will offer them a chance to do this.thus giving a better chance of balance to the over all game.witch is why some of the WH's from high sec should be solo able,to alow for this. and pirates will have better chance with this as well, if they do get some one they will have better rewards, but will have more work to find them, witch will help to limit grievers, who are the bane of any game. they just make it unfun for any one but other grievers till it circles down to where you have carebears and 0.0, and grievers, and little else. i have great hopes for this expansion! try and look at the game from every aspect, and from different ppls perspective, this is the task of the devs, and there goal is for every one to have fun. and while you can never please every one, they must try for the best they can.because if ppl can't have fun they will find other games to play. and there are a lot of them now days,but they will all ways try to stick with a game because the time they have invested. and the need to reinvest in the next one. and yes if you are seting on a gate with 10 ppl your a griever(other than 0.0 warfare) and if you scanning out some one in a mission to attack while they are engaged as well(though there are many that could be a pirate,very gray area). and salvage ninja as well(since they don't get to defend and it is so easy to find them),but this is a ccp fault one. well this is not the place to continue but once again, this looks to have great possibilities, looking good!
Maximus Orlham	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:30:00 - [1378] Will there be better stuff for miners......... New roids and bigger ones???? Better ships for us?
Aylara	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:11:00 - [1379] Originally by: Brixer Droneboat (no ammo), 'free' hi-slots for cloak, probe-launcher, tractor beam, salvager. Armor tank: Med slots for analyzer, codebreaker. Can probe out the exit after a successfull 1 week MIA, and then after getting out, jump home if you happen to exit in hostile space. Sorry, but i would also point 2 things regarding the jump to home: 1- possible cynojammer in the system 2- (most important) FUEL
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:23:00 - [1380] Originally by: Aylara Originally by: Brixer Droneboat (no ammo), 'free' hi-slots for cloak, probe-launcher, tractor beam, salvager. Armor tank: Med slots for analyzer, codebreaker. Can probe out the exit after a successfull 1 week MIA, and then after getting out, jump home if you happen to exit in hostile space. Sorry, but i would also point 2 things regarding the jump to home: 1- possible cynojammer in the system 2- (most important) FUEL how much space you need in your cargo for fuel and the loot for 1 week? if it happens you exit in hostile space then go back into the wormhole and look for another exit

Isac Hands	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:51:00 - [1381] Just wonder how they will balance this: A W-hole in hi-sec cant be guarded without CONCORD interference, and is free for all to get into with the largest possibilty of player opposition and danger of it collapsing due to mass. This makes hi-sec w-holes the most dangerous ones i guess. In low-sec and 0.0 it can be guarded if you have the numbers. The big differece comes into play when it appears in an alliance stronghold, where it is an enterance to a privat fishing pond in comparision. I feel that mass/time need to be lowest in 0.0 Any thoughts of this? Or any other ideas?
Ahro Thariori	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:07:00 - [1382] FEATURE REQUEST: If WH space is void of any npc stations or outposts (no sov to build them) there is no way to reprocess crappy loot (refining arrays only work for ice/ore afaik). Please consider adding a reprocessing array. Thx, Ahro
Aylara	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:18:00 - [1383] Originally by: cianide pro how much space you need in your cargo for fuel and the loot for 1 week? Depends on the length of the jump; pretty much half your cargo bay will be needed for fuel; also someone must fire up a cyno for you. Originally by: cianide pro if it happens you exit in hostile space then go back into the wormhole and look for another exit Well, in this case you don't need a black ops at all. After all, you can search for an exit into low-sec or even empire.
cianide pro	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:25:00 - [1384] Originally by: Aylara Originally by: cianide pro how much space you need in your cargo for fuel and the loot for 1 week? Depends on the length of the jump; pretty much half your cargo bay will be needed for fuel; also someone must fire up a cyno for you. Originally by: cianide pro if it happens you exit in hostile space then go back into the wormhole and look for another exit Well, in this case you don't need a black ops at all. After all, you can search for an exit into low-sec or even empire. I said that as atm the black ops have a cargo bay way to small to be useful for this line of work ;) Boost cargo bay space and add fuel bay then they could be useful.
Jason Penopolis	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:16:00 - [1385] How will the skill 'Sleeper Technology' be factored into this? Will it maintain it's position for production of equipment from the sleepers or will it be worked into extraction thereof? Will ratters/explorers need any new skills to rat or salvage equipment from the sleeper wrecks?
Tierius Fro	Posted - 2009.02.03 21:49:00 - [1386] SUGGESTION I think you should have 3 or 4 capital ship rats that randomly select a W-system each day and then attack any POS found in that system. It should be setup so that a fueled POS will most likely survive, but an un-fueled POS .. gone.
Letrange Minmatar Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.03 22:28:00 - [1387] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Mikal Drey if its possible to take an orca through a wormhole to this new space but a BS was restricted (mass/class etc) is/will there be a system in place to stop the orca taking a packaged BS (50km) inside its cargo bay, passing through the wormhole, then jettisoning the ships directly into space. IIRC ships jettisoned from cargo auto assemble in space. ergo completely bypassing ship size restriction This is recommended behavior - if you can use maintenance bays to maximize the capacity of wormholes, you should definitely do so! /me looks at the ships stats humm it's a way to bring extra ships along with an Orca but not to use the Orca to increase your ships beyond what you could bring without the Orca I notice. Stats for the clueless: masses: Orca - 250 Gg (Giga grams - i.e. 1,000,000 kg) BS - 100 Gg (aprox) Cruiser - 10 Gg (aprox) Frigate - 1 Gg (aprox) Packaged Volumes: BS - 50 km3 Cruiser - 10 km3 Frigate - 2.5 km3 Capacity of a rigged Orca 90 km3 (primary cargo hold) 30 km3 (corp hangar) So in theory an Orca could haul 1 BS, 6 Cruiser and the modules for same (plus what ever is in the maintenance bay) Which represents 160 Gg of ships but it takes 250 Gg of ship to get them there. For pure weight of firepower it would be better to simply send the ships thru with their pilots. On the other hand if you want to use the Orca as a base of operations while in W-space this would permit you to bring an extra 153 Gg (you send those 7 pilots thru in frigates) of ships thru wormwhole. Or bring along 160 Gg of spare ships for re-mounts to replace losses incurred in W-space. The point here is you can't use an orca to INCREASE the weight of ships you bring. But you can use it to bring more than you would think. I also note that it is more efficient in this case to bring the biggest ships possible. due to the efficiency in packing in mass for the same volume: BS - 2 Gg per km3 Cruiser - 1 Gg per km3 Frigate - 0.4 Gg per km3
Imnar Blade	Posted - 2009.02.03 22:45:00 - [1388] Might have been asked before, but didn't see it in the first 35 pages or so. Some of us (including me) have really crappy standings with Empire factions. What is the situation if an exit wormhole to empire high sec comes out in a system where we are not at all welcome. Will the police be immediately on us as soon as we exit the wormhole, or will they only notice our presence once we hit a station or stargate? ie. Will we get a chance to dock up and make arrangements, or will our hard won loot be immediately scattered across the cosmos?
Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.02.03 23:22:00 - [1389] Originally by: Imnar Blade Might have been asked before, but didn't see it in the first 35 pages or so. Some of us (including me) have really crappy standings with Empire factions. What is the situation if an exit wormhole to empire high sec comes out in a system where we are not at all welcome. Will the police be immediately on us as soon as we exit the wormhole, or will they only notice our presence once we hit a station or stargate? ie. Will we get a chance to dock up and make arrangements, or will our hard won loot be immediately scattered across the cosmos? When you have bad standings with a faction, they will attack you at stargates and stations. You will also be blinky to all players in the system.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.02.03 23:40:00 - [1390] Quote: When you have bad standings with a faction, they will attack you at stargates and stations. You will also be blinky to all players in the system. Wrong. - A navy crew will arrive and warp around, following you and engaging you. These guys pack a pretty big punch, but you can tank it for long enough. - Sentry Turrets will engage you at stations and gates. - You are not attackable by other players, unless you join a FW corp and are engaged by a player of the opposing corp, as per any wardec mechanic. You are not blinky red like an outlaw. - Customs and Police NPCs will not engage you unless aggress them. Something you really don't want to do. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal I went to the forums for special powers and all I got was a dancing padlock and a banhammer.

Infinion Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.02.03 23:55:00 - [1391] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Quote: When you have bad standings with a faction, they will attack you at stargates and stations. You will also be blinky to all players in the system. Wrong. - A navy crew will arrive and warp around, following you and engaging you. These guys pack a pretty big punch, but you can tank it for long enough. - Sentry Turrets will engage you at stations and gates. - You are not attackable by other players, unless you join a FW corp and are engaged by a player of the opposing corp, as per any wardec mechanic. You are not blinky red like an outlaw. - Customs and Police NPCs will not engage you unless aggress them. Something you really don't want to do. orly, I assumed it was the same as when entering a system with too low of a security status I have a question of my own: If you were to leave a ship in W-Space in some planet or moon for a day, returning to it to drop off loot etc, would it still be there the next day or is there a timer on when it disappears? I know that you can leave ships in and around POS bubbles but not without
Smurfalpha	Posted - 2009.02.04 01:41:00 - [1392] Originally by: Imnar Blade Might have been asked before, but didn't see it in the first 35 pages or so. Some of us (including me) have really crappy standings with Empire factions. What is the situation if an exit wormhole to empire high sec comes out in a system where we are not at all welcome. Will the police be immediately on us as soon as we exit the wormhole, or will they only notice our presence once we hit a station or stargate? ie. Will we get a chance to dock up and make arrangements, or will our hard won loot be immediately scattered across the cosmos? Usually a small group of the faction's navy will show up to "greet" you, but if you are quick you can just jump like hell to a safe area. On the other hand, it sounds like you should have taken better care of your faction standings in the first place.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.04 01:50:00 - [1393] Originally by: Infinion Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Quote: When you have bad standings with a faction, they will attack you at stargates and stations. You will also be blinky to all players in the system. Wrong. - A navy crew will arrive and warp around, following you and engaging you. These guys pack a pretty big punch, but you can tank it for long enough. - Sentry Turrets will engage you at stations and gates. - You are not attackable by other players, unless you join a FW corp and are engaged by a player of the opposing corp, as per any wardec mechanic. You are not blinky red like an outlaw. - Customs and Police NPCs will not engage you unless aggress them. Something you really don't want to do. orly, I assumed it was the same as when entering a system with too low of a security status I have a question of my own: If you were to leave a ship in W-Space in some planet or moon for a day, returning to it to drop off loot etc, would it still be there the next day or is there a timer on when it disappears? I know that you can leave ships in and around POS bubbles but not without I would think it's the same as shuttles or similar- 30 days.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.04 03:10:00 - [1394] as far as loot space, t3 will allow ship mods u might loose black ops jump range but could boost cargo bay
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:03:00 - [1395] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I would think it's the same as shuttles or similar- 30 days. No they won't, only shuttles, fighters and noob ships are cleaned up. (devblog)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.02.04 04:23:00 - [1396] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Bellum Eternus I would think it's the same as shuttles or similar- 30 days. No they won't, only shuttles, fighters and noob ships are cleaned up. (devblog) Ah, guess that solves the problem of losing motherships heh.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 06:27:00 - [1397] So I had a thought. You have your wormhole in a w-space system. Is it possible (although extremely unlikely) that the exit wormhole you find in the system, just ends up in a second wormhole that tosses you back into that same system? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.04 07:55:00 - [1398] its quite possible yes u could end up back in the same wsystem but u got a 1 in 20k chacne by my cals
Aleia Destrava Minmatar O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.04 08:16:00 - [1399] Originally by: An Anarchyyt So I had a thought. You have your wormhole in a w-space system. Is it possible (although extremely unlikely) that the exit wormhole you find in the system, just ends up in a second wormhole that tosses you back into that same system? I guess that all depends on how they implement the wormhole generation. If it just picks two systems from the pool, determine locations in those systems and connect them through the newly created WH, then yes. If they first pick the first system and then pick the second system from the pool minus the first system then no.
Camerapup Amarr Six Sigma Logistics	Posted - 2009.02.04 09:31:00 - [1400] Random Thoughts 1) will pve and pvp combat flags affect your ability to leave said wormhole's? 2) will pilot x having visited wormhole y, after visiting it z number of times eventually have it added to his in game map, say 20,50, 100 times? 3) will wormholes have navigation restrictions impossed on them ie: afterburners and microwarpdrives? 4) more of a future expansion/patch suggestion but maybe allow the purchasing/naming of a star/wormhole/gate etc for a certain amount of isk much like you can name a star after someone in rl? 5)the art/visual team diffinitely needs to make a wormhole teaser video that's all for now i may come up with more stuff later really looking forward to seeing all this on the test realms.

ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.04 11:11:00 - [1401] Originally by: Camerapup Random Thoughts 1) will pve and pvp combat flags affect your ability to leave said wormhole's? 2) will pilot x having visited wormhole y, after visiting it z number of times eventually have it added to his in game map, say 20,50, 100 times? 3) will wormholes have navigation restrictions impossed on them ie: afterburners and microwarpdrives? 4) more of a future expansion/patch suggestion but maybe allow the purchasing/naming of a star/wormhole/gate etc for a certain amount of isk much like you can name a star after someone in rl? 5)the art/visual team diffinitely needs to make a wormhole teaser video that's all for now i may come up with more stuff later really looking forward to seeing all this on the test realms. 1.) usual logoffski timers aggro no aggro 90 second aggro perhaps as existing before exiting gate 2.) wormholes are off map they dont exist on a map they have hteir own system ids. U can create BMs numbering those u have visitied 3.) only time and mass u will warp to 0km on wormhole and jump im assuming 4.) not gunna happen make BMs and make naming conventions within youre corp-alliance 5.) yes good idea but if we have it on sisi this week we can make our own fan vids
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:46:00 - [1402] Originally by: ollobrains2 as far as loot space, t3 will allow ship mods u might loose black ops jump range but could boost cargo bay T3 is CRUISER SIZE HULLS only.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.02.04 15:30:00 - [1403] Will we get 0-way wormholes, so if you enter it you will instantly get spit out right where you started or maybe at a different location but in the same solarsystem?
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.04 16:36:00 - [1404] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Will we get 0-way wormholes, so if you enter it you will instantly get spit out right where you started or maybe at a different location but in the same solarsystem? Already implemented. They're called logoffski-holes.
Dell Piano Caldari Astrowave	Posted - 2009.02.04 16:58:00 - [1405] Living in "Wormland" won't be easy, but i'm going to try it anyway. Thanks CCP for all the good work. I want another devblog !!!!!
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:04:00 - [1406] Originally by: Neddy Fox T3 is CRUISER SIZE HULLS only. I know CCP have been showing off the ships, but I haven't heard any comment from them regarding the addition of T3 modules.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.02.04 17:20:00 - [1407] Bumped to remind Grayscale to dish the dirt on the new probing system.
Ranged Airman Airman Expedition	Posted - 2009.02.05 01:16:00 - [1408] I love it all, but can you think about changing the mass limit from 12million kg to 13.2million kg? Otherwise Caldari Cruisers can't fit....
Donkey Pong Gallente Static Shock Industries	Posted - 2009.02.05 04:16:00 - [1409] Originally by: CCP Whisper The current exploration and encounter content in K-space will remain and function exactly as before. Except of course you will have a new scanner and probe system with which to find the sites. In fact I believe our content team is adding more exploration sites to K-space in Apocrypha, but there will be more information on that coming later. AWESOME! This sounds like a great expansion, and I am really excited about it. Plus your adding more exploration sites --> Win WIN
Donkey Pong Gallente Static Shock Industries	Posted - 2009.02.05 04:18:00 - [1410] Originally by: Red 7 Bumped to remind Grayscale to dish the dirt on the new probing system. Hear! Hear!

Tuco Volta	Posted - 2009.02.05 17:15:00 - [1411] Downtime, RL, and Wormholes pardon if this was addressed elsewhere and correct me if I'm wrong As i understand it: - there will be no stations in w-space - a person could spend days/weeks/an eternity in w-space so how will things work if all of a sudden i have to leave the game....no longer will I be able to dock up? will i just have to leave my ship floating in space for someone to come along and pop? will there be any mechanism for players to remain safe in w-space while outside of the game?
Rosur Gallente Infestation.	Posted - 2009.02.05 18:55:00 - [1412] Originally by: Tuco Volta Downtime, RL, and Wormholes pardon if this was addressed elsewhere and correct me if I'm wrong As i understand it: - there will be no stations in w-space - a person could spend days/weeks/an eternity in w-space so how will things work if all of a sudden i have to leave the game....no longer will I be able to dock up? will i just have to leave my ship floating in space for someone to come along and pop? will there be any mechanism for players to remain safe in w-space while outside of the game? You can just log of in space as long as u dont have any aggro from being shot/shooting other palyers. Your ship just warps of in a random direction then disapers as long as u dont have aggro. Please resize your sig to less than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Dyre Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:45:00 - [1413] Edited by: Dyre on 05/02/2009 23:46:03 Quick request: Remove the 30day "rot away" period on unoccupied ships in warp space. If someone has to eject and pod themselves because they are stuck, PLEASE leave their ship floating there untill someone finds it. My character was originally made around scanning down safespots and hijacking the ships that people left floating at them. Due to scanning and changes to floating item persistance, that does not really happen anymore. Going into a wormhole and finding a nice ship with a cargohold of good loot would be yet another aspect of the creepy threat of being stranded, and could really push along both the profit and the interaction with the feel you are trying to create in this new type of space. Besides, it then gives the person who had to "clone jump" out of the warpspace the (very slim) hope of finding and reclaiming his stuff.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.06 07:39:00 - [1414] Originally by: Dyre Quick request: Remove the 30day "rot away" period on unoccupied ships in warp space. There isn't one. Only drones, fighters, shuttles, and rookie ships. And it's not thirty days, it's supposed to be "first of the month", so 15-ish days on average. I still find ancient abandoned ships, but these days, it's rare. I'm hoping to find quite a few more in W-space, where people will be deliberately taking spare ships and "stashing" them in "safe" spots.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.06 12:32:00 - [1415] destoryes adn t2 frigs and up remain in space permanenently
Pliauga Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:09:00 - [1416] Originally by: CCP Prism X .... However, you would not expect to land in the middle of a fleet fight. It could happen but that would mean people had taken the fleet fight willingly to the entrance you're exiting. But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. THIS, make it hapen. An anti blob wormhole gun ------- "Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried?
rubico1337 Caldari nefarious badgers inc	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:18:00 - [1417] if any devs are still reading this thread can you please answer a itching question of mine. a couple of resourceful players noticed that 11% of known systems are exact replicates of each other, (number of solar bodies, their attributes such as mass and radius etc) will there be duplicates in to w-space also? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=986491&page=1#26 oh, and where do i send the beer for this amazing expansion? Originally by: Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
whoyoulookingat Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:17:00 - [1418] I just hope and pray they don't dumb down the rats from the new space when everyone starts complaining how tough they are.. was bad enough when they did it to lvl 4's. tough rats, tough new space.. that's what i'm hoping _____________________________________ Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
Vulgaris	Posted - 2009.02.06 16:18:00 - [1419] I have been harrassed by my corp/alliance friends to read up on these worm hole thingy's. Not being one to generally read dev blogs I must admit that for once I am impressed with CCP inovative thought process(well done). The advent of the worm holes will bring a third element to the game (1=empire, 2=low sec & 0.0) and I have to stay it is badly needed as the game of late has become some what stagnate. I also found it interesting reading the blog that the larger 0.0 alliances seem opposed to the idea, I wonder why? perhaps the thought of a number of Black Op's pilots showing up in their back yard without warning scares the s**t outta them..lol While reading the blog my overactive imagination got the better of me and an idea was born....yes Vulgaris with an idea.... To really put the Cat among the preverbial pigeons what about making the worm hole a two way system, let me explain.Once a worm hole appears in empire or wherever, capsuleers can choose to jump in, but in worm hole space we have been told of new NPC's...what if they could jump in the opposite direction and cause mayhem in the system on the other side??? Think about it, a sunday afternoon in Jita...mission running, miners and pvper's all going about their business when suddendly strange ships appear and begin targetting and killing everthing in site...Pandamonium...players in the system would have to join forces in order to alleviate the hostile threat! The invaders stay in the system until such time that they are either destroyed or another worm hole appears and they slip back into the depth of uncharted space. I am not asking CCP to implement this I am just putting it out there for consideration. It would certainly add a fourth dimension to the game, that of the complete unknown. In the meantime I too look forward to the new Patch and must give CCP a well deserved pat on the back. My rant is over, Vulgaris
Kename Fin Caldari Dark Star Galactic Engineers	Posted - 2009.02.07 09:26:00 - [1420] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Alz Shado Somewhat serious question. Will Wormholes with more than one 'exit' always be linked to system of the same sec? Meaning, will a highsec wormhole always be linked to other highsec wormholes, and vice-versa? Why? Cap ships. Will taking a carrier into a wormhole in lowsec mean you can take an alternate exit ramp into Jita? If not, then what do you do when the lowsec gate closes and the only way out is into a carebear-friendly zone? No, high sec wormholes will not always be linked just to high sec space and other high sec wormholes. You can quite possibly discover a route from low sec or 0.0 space to high sec space through a series of wormholes. Yes, we figured out that this would allow carriers and other capitals that are not meant to be in high sec space a way in. And we're taking measures to prevent that. A possible solution might be to combine a bit of the acceleration gate mechanics with said high-sec wormholes. Namely, set the mass allowance to whatever you might like it to be, but throttle down the bandwidth so that only ships of up to X mass could fly through, even if there is sufficient mass to let larger capitals through. Think in terms of a straw or pipe. It can let a lot of volume through, but something larger than it's diameter is going to jam. Not that you all didn't already think of this. Play with the numbers and you could get it so that the wormhole diameter is directly related to the security of K-space system that it connects to.

Kalib Stark Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:36:00 - [1421] ....so a carebear probes a nice wormhole in .8 space, jumps in to have a look, and finds: a 0.0 style bubble camp sitting on the wormhole exit. WTFPWN! welcome to your new clone. will the bottom tier "lowest reward" Highsec W-space allow bubbles, bombs, ect? will carriers be able to get into highesc connected lowest tier space? Empire connected wormholes will be just as, if not more dangerous than higher tier W-space due to EZ access for grieffers. There are (relatively) few pilots in lowsec, so lowsec connected "mid tier" W-space will see less traffic, hence less camping. 0.0 alliances will get access to large reward highest tier space from thar own back yards where they are not likely to encounter anything but blues in the first W-system they jump into. sure some reds might be coming from some other worm hole system that was connected to the first by x number of "wormhole jumps", but that danger declines with each additional W-system between the entry points. I looks to me that the reward vs risk tiers are backwards. Quote: From CCP Prism: "They're all treated as nullsec. Even the ones you enter from empire. On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are. ╚KS╝
Mikkaras Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.07 18:42:00 - [1422] WHAT?! So I'm listening to the Alliance Tournament VI broadcast, around 18:30 EVE time. One of the people talking about the Tech 3 ships said that, depending on which sections the ship was composed of, if you lost the ship, you would LOSE A LEVEL OF ONE OF YOUR SKILLS?!
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:11:00 - [1423] Originally by: Kalib Stark ....so a carebear probes a nice wormhole in .8 space, jumps in to have a look, and finds: a 0.0 style bubble camp sitting on the wormhole exit. WTFPWN! welcome to your new clone. This will depend HEAVILY on how much time and effort it takes to find these wormholes, and how long they persist. If there's a steady stream of intrepid explorers finding the wormhole in .8, with another one coming in every few minutes, then, yah. But if it takes a lot of work to scan down the wormhole entrance in .8, people will not be coming through very often. Camping would probably be too boring and unprofitable. Has anybody ever made kills by scanning down exploration sites in today's 0.0, then camping those sites to kill the next explorer who finds them? I'm sure it's happened, but it's very rare because of the difficulties involved and the necessary patience. You're talking about something that (I hope) will be of similar difficulty ... and thus, rarity. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Kalib Stark Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:59:00 - [1424] Originally by: Marlenus But if it takes a lot of work to scan down the wormhole entrance in .8, people will not be coming through very often. Camping would probably be too boring and unprofitable. Has anybody ever made kills by scanning down exploration sites in today's 0.0, then camping those sites to kill the next explorer who finds them? I'm sure it's happened, but it's very rare because of the difficulties involved and the necessary patience. You're talking about something that (I hope) will be of similar difficulty ... and thus, rarity. I probe in empire, and run into others on fully half the sites I find, and probing sucks right now, with high skills and(relatively) low reward other than maybe RADAR sites. so, with low skill requirements and dreams of T3 BPO's dancing in every carbear head, traffic will be high at least at first. plus, that 0.0 probe site has what? 3 blues in local? no pilots for 3 jumps? and while camping it, you can be seen on local. but that .8 system might have 50 pilots in it. unless wormholes dump you somewhat randomly in the W-system, or have such high spawn rates that their are too many to camp, camping them will be profitable in highsec. ╚KS╝
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:20:00 - [1425] i think k-k wormholes will be the rarest. Afs, hacs and ceptors would seem best suited for suicide gank squads, ninja ratters and miners. I think a a low sec resident that access to 00 without always encountering camps is a good thing the 00 guys will alos be able to come thro the other way and perhaps get some low sec pvp. Empire ccp have said cap ships wont he able to pass thro from null and low to high sec. Also goes for bombs might work in wspace but once u jump into high sec im guessing with the 30 second delay ( would be simliair to cap ship jumps now) would prevent any warp disruptors, bubbles etc from working.
Kalib Stark Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.08 17:43:00 - [1426] Originally by: ollobrains2 Empire ccp have said cap ships wont he able to pass thro from null and low to high sec. Also goes for bombs might work in wspace but once u jump into high sec im guessing with the 30 second delay ( would be simliair to cap ship jumps now) would prevent any warp disruptors, bubbles etc from working. CCP said no capitals in highsec K-space, my question was capitals in highsec connected bottom tier "low reward/risk" W-space. Will carebears face 15 fighters warping after them to their safe spots because a carrier used 0.0/lowsec -> W-space, then W-space -> W-space? If other pilots are what make it unsafe, why is the space likely to contain the most other pilots(ie highsec linked) the lowest reward space? It seems to me that the safest W-space will be a closed W-system linked only to a system in the middle of a large alliance's sovereign 0.0 space that they can farm in peace as long as the wormhole lasts. Yet this is the highest reward space, the most likely to contain the true wealth building rewards like BPO's. If the value of W-space is linked to the true sec of the system it links to, this is just something to bolster the coffers of the largest alliances who hold that space. Meanwhile small corps will lose clones in high sec linked, crowded with grieffers, pvp'ers, neuts, etc, yet lowest tier w-space. If all W-space is to be 0.0 style with regard to PVP, then it should have the same level of rewards, not a tiered system based on what kind of space it is linked to. When you get podded, it'll make little difference to you that concord was protecting the system you were last in. Most of 0.0 is far safer than lowsec, and sov space is full of rat chaining, roid farming, scan probing carbares who will have far safer access to the best W-space.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.02.09 10:25:00 - [1427] best option is even with high sec links raise the mass as far as u want just simply perhaps make it that concords jamming systems prevent capitals from jumping thro wspace links to high sec.
Maximus Profitus	Posted - 2009.02.09 11:20:00 - [1428] Edited by: Maximus Profitus on 09/02/2009 11:21:54 Originally by: Kalib Stark ....so a carebear probes a nice wormhole in .8 space, jumps in to have a look, and finds: a 0.0 style bubble camp sitting on the wormhole exit. WTFPWN! welcome to your new clone. will the bottom tier "lowest reward" Highsec W-space allow bubbles, bombs, ect? will carriers be able to get into highesc connected lowest tier space? Empire connected wormholes will be just as, if not more dangerous than higher tier W-space due to EZ access for grieffers. There are (relatively) few pilots in lowsec, so lowsec connected "mid tier" W-space will see less traffic, hence less camping. 0.0 alliances will get access to large reward highest tier space from thar own back yards where they are not likely to encounter anything but blues in the first W-system they jump into. sure some reds might be coming from some other worm hole system that was connected to the first by x number of "wormhole jumps", but that danger declines with each additional W-system between the entry points. I looks to me that the reward vs risk tiers are backwards. Quote: From CCP Prism: "They're all treated as nullsec. Even the ones you enter from empire. On the personal side I feel that it's a good way to point out that non-empire isn't inherently evil and deadly. It's the inhabitants that are. From what I understand from the dev-blog and the dev-responses, nothing is set in stone. Yes there is a higher chance an Empire WH leads to low quality W-space, and 0.0 WH to higher quality W-space. But there's also a chance you get from Empire to high-quality or Empire to Empire or 0.0 to low quality etc, chances are a lot lower, but from what I understand, still there... Also from what I read, I think other players might just be the least of your problems if you are soloing or in a very small gang. And I doubt the systems will be that crowded or campable, for a camp you have to know where a wormhole is and where it leads, while running the risk one of your targets will collapse the wormhole and get you "trapped" in there, unless you find another route to known space. The next wormhole you camp could just lead deeper into wormspace or perhaps to an empty 0.0 system. I think the pirating won't be so much camps, but more like roaming gangs that, while exploring, try to gank any other gang they find in wormspace.
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.02.09 14:05:00 - [1429] Are Covert Ops ships going to be re-configured? The 13.5 au/s warp was always of marginal use (hard to make good bookmarks with) but at least it gave you a small boost jumping between bookmarks. Now if probes are going to warp around on their own it really doesn't help very much to have a very fast warping ship. On the other hand having more maneuverability, tank, cargo bay, warp stabilizing, etcetera are all great things to have.
Killshandra Tides of Silence	Posted - 2009.02.09 18:43:00 - [1430] Edited by: Killshandra on 09/02/2009 18:44:04 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. I am confused. Whisper says you cannot jump through if the remaining budget is below the ship size and Greyscale says you can although it will close the wormhole behind you. Which is it? I could be completely misreading one or both of these posts though. Please clarify for me. BTW you guys Rock!

Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.09 19:32:00 - [1431] Originally by: Strom Nekth Are Covert Ops ships going to be re-configured? Looks like yes: Originally by: CCP Greyscale The covert ops is going to get its bonus changed, as will several skills and all the rigs and implants. My assumption, from the context: he's talking about "all the [probing] rigs and implants." ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:15:00 - [1432] Originally by: Killshandra Edited by: Killshandra on 09/02/2009 18:44:04 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. I am confused. Whisper says you cannot jump through if the remaining budget is below the ship size and Greyscale says you can although it will close the wormhole behind you. Which is it? I could be completely misreading one or both of these posts though. Please clarify for me. BTW you guys Rock! As far as I can tell: Any ship of 12,000,000kg (most cruisers) or less can always use a wormhole, regardless of the wormhole's remaining transport mass. If your mass is greater than the wormhole's remaining transport mass then the wormhole will close behind you. If your ship is more than 12,000,000kg then you can only use wormholes that explicitly have at least that much transport mass remaining. So, for example: Wormhole with 1,000,000kg left, you can take through a Vexor (11,250,000kg) and it will close the hole after you. You can't fit a Megathron through. Wormhole with 12,000,000kg left you can take the Vexor though and be left with a 750,000kg wormhole. Then you can fly back through it in the Vexor and it will close after you. You can't fit a Megathron through. Wormhole with 100,000,000kg left you can fit the Vexor through multiple times, but not the 102,500,000kg Megathron once. Wormhole with 105,000,000kg left you can fit the Megathron on a one way trip, you can even follow it with the Vexor and collapse the hole.
Killshandra Tides of Silence	Posted - 2009.02.09 20:25:00 - [1433] Originally by: Strom Nekth Originally by: Killshandra Originally by: CCP Whisper The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. I am confused. Whisper says you cannot jump through if the remaining budget is below the ship size and Greyscale says you can although it will close the wormhole behind you. Which is it? I could be completely misreading one or both of these posts though. Please clarify for me. BTW you guys Rock! As far as I can tell: Any ship of 12,000,000kg (most cruisers) or less can always use a wormhole, regardless of the wormhole's remaining transport mass. If your mass is greater than the wormhole's remaining transport mass then the wormhole will close behind you. If your ship is more than 12,000,000kg then you can only use wormholes that explicitly have at least that much transport mass remaining. So, for example: Wormhole with 1,000,000kg left, you can take through a Vexor (11,250,000kg) and it will close the hole after you. You can't fit a Megathron through. Wormhole with 12,000,000kg left you can take the Vexor though and be left with a 750,000kg wormhole. Then you can fly back through it in the Vexor and it will close after you. You can't fit a Megathron through. Wormhole with 100,000,000kg left you can fit the Vexor through multiple times, but not the 102,500,000kg Megathron once. Wormhole with 105,000,000kg left you can fit the Megathron on a one way trip, you can even follow it with the Vexor and collapse the hole. So what Greyscale said was correct then and what Whisper said was incorrect or before they changed it?
Strom Nekth	Posted - 2009.02.10 01:00:00 - [1434] Originally by: Killshandra So what Greyscale said was correct then and what Whisper said was incorrect or before they changed it? The two paragraphs that you quoted are not inconsistent because Whisper was talking about Motherships (mass 1,300,000,000kg or thereabouts) not being able to fit back through a wormhole which doesn't have sufficient mass capacity remaining. Greyscale was talking about a cruiser size exception to the minimum mass requirement. So according to Whisper if you have a 2,600,000,001 mass wormhole (i.e. 2x mass of mothership) you can fly a mothership through it and return, then fly a vexor through it and collapse the wormhole. However if, after you fly it through, you fly a vexor through it then there wont be enough mass left for you to bring the mothership home. Thus your mothership would be trapped in W-Space. It is impossible to accidentally trap a cruiser (except for a really heavy one) in W-Space unless you actually collapse the wormhole.
Killshandra Tides of Silence	Posted - 2009.02.10 01:49:00 - [1435] Edited by: Killshandra on 10/02/2009 01:51:17 Originally by: Killshandra Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Captain Politics How much mass before collaps, can I bring in a Mothership? The mass, much like the maximum time, will be determined semi-randomly. I think there could be room for a mothership in some cases. Of course, if you get your mothership stuck in a wormhole system because someone followed you and bumped the allowable mass remaining to just under a tick of what you need to go home...well I leave that up to you to mull over. Wormhole systems are all about making a value judgment of risk versus the potential rewards and the ability to get the rewards home. Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. I am confused. Whisper says you cannot jump through if the remaining budget is below the ship size and Greyscale says you can although it will close the wormhole behind you. Which is it? I could be completely misreading one or both of these posts though. Please clarify for me. BTW you guys Rock! Originally by: Strom Nekth As far as I can tell: Any ship of 12,000,000kg (most cruisers) or less can always use a wormhole, regardless of the wormhole's remaining transport mass. If your mass is greater than the wormhole's remaining transport mass then the wormhole will close behind you. If your ship is more than 12,000,000kg then you can only use wormholes that explicitly have at least that much transport mass remaining. So, for example: Wormhole with 1,000,000kg left, you can take through a Vexor (11,250,000kg) and it will close the hole after you. You can't fit a Megathron through. Wormhole with 12,000,000kg left you can take the Vexor though and be left with a 750,000kg wormhole. Then you can fly back through it in the Vexor and it will close after you. You can't fit a Megathron through. Wormhole with 100,000,000kg left you can fit the Vexor through multiple times, but not the 102,500,000kg Megathron once. Wormhole with 105,000,000kg left you can fit the Megathron on a one way trip, you can even follow it with the Vexor and collapse the hole. Originally by: Killshandra So what Greyscale said was correct then and what Whisper said was incorrect or before they changed it? The two paragraphs that you quoted are not inconsistent because Whisper was talking about Motherships (mass 1,300,000,000kg or thereabouts) not being able to fit back through a wormhole which doesn't have sufficient mass capacity remaining. Greyscale was talking about a cruiser size exception to the minimum mass requirement. So according to Whisper if you have a 2,600,000,001 mass wormhole (i.e. 2x mass of mothership) you can fly a mothership through it and return, then fly a vexor through it and collapse the wormhole. However if, after you fly it through, you fly a vexor through it then there wont be enough mass left for you to bring the mothership home. Thus your mothership would be trapped in W-Space. It is impossible to accidentally trap a cruiser (except for a really heavy one) in W-Space unless you actually collapse the wormhole. I am sorry I misread what you originally said. No, according to Greyscale if the max ship mass (m) is higher then the ship mass (s) then no matter how much of the ship budget (b) is left you can jump (j) the ship through. If m > s and b > 0 then j = yes
Dennmoth Ferdier	Posted - 2009.02.10 08:25:00 - [1436] Edited by: Dennmoth Ferdier on 10/02/2009 08:30:40 Originally by: CCP Greyscale We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you. You could also take 10 1,000,000kg frigates through, and it'd collapse after the last one. In wormhole systems, a collapsing exit will always spawn a new exit. In K-space a collapsing wormhole will respawn elsewhere in the cluster. So, as you added elsewhere, the spawning exit will not necessarily support the same mass as the wormhole you entered from, meaning you might have your battleship stranded in the system. This begs the question, will the exit wormhole be constant and you'll just have to settle for the fact that you must abandon your battleship and use a pod to get out? Or, do you have the possibility to wait for the wormhole to collapse on its own and hope for a larger capacity exit? I think it'd be very rewarding to find abandoned ships of different sizes and classes in systems you've just found, and with some luck you'd be able to haul them out and sell. Additionally, since wormholes are probed out, doesn't this mean you'll always have to have a probing capable ship in w-space, in addition to what else you might bring in order to actually get out from there without letting belt rats kill you for med clone exit?
Theyu Civaro Caldari Trans-Solar Works FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:45:00 - [1437] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Gamer4liff Does this imply that wormhole space accessed through highsec can only be accessed through highsec wormholes? That the exits from the highsec accessed from wormhole space would only lead to empire space as well? No. You could possibly apply that as a general rule of thumb but that is in no means absolute. Originally by: Gamer4liff Let me just walk through a scenario here, let's say I through an ungodly lucky stroke find an untapped dysprosium moon in wormhole space. I use an orca or something to throw up a POS. Could happen. Originally by: Gamer4liff From there I move a few alts to the POS, and use them to leave the system through the wormholes that come and go to ascertain where the new entrances are to move the material out and move fuel in. Then I'd jump them back to the home system. Could happen. Originally by: Gamer4liff Would this be possible? Non-exploitive? I'm not sure how else it could work to find a system where you set up a POS in again without getting exceedingly lucky, there being 1000+ wormhole systems and all. As far as I can see you're using intended mechanics and working on keeping the POS online and lucrative. I wouldn't expect it to work in all cases though. I could very easily see you finding a wormhole that leads further into wormhole space. You need more fuel for the POS.. so will you look further into space? At some point you might find yourself stuck, with a collapsed wormhole behind you and no way to empire or to your POS. The trick would be to never loose your frame of reference to the POS, and if that happens.. you might as well just set a new one up. I'll do you a solid and point Greyscale this way. What about moving a clone vat capable ship into the wormhole system and clone jumping to that ship? Would that be possible?
Killshandra Tides of Silence	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:08:00 - [1438] Originally by: Theyu Civaro What about moving a clone vat capable ship into the wormhole system and clone jumping to that ship? Would that be possible? No jump clones man.
Theyu Civaro Caldari Trans-Solar Works FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:01:00 - [1439] Originally by: CCP Prism X But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. Like your way of thinking
Lusulpher Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.11 06:53:00 - [1440] Edited by: Lusulpher on 11/02/2009 06:54:15 Originally by: Strom Nekth Originally by: Killshandra So what Greyscale said was correct then and what Whisper said was incorrect or before they changed it? The two paragraphs that you quoted are not inconsistent because Whisper was talking about Motherships (mass 1,300,000,000kg or thereabouts) not being able to fit back through a wormhole which doesn't have sufficient mass capacity remaining. Greyscale was talking about a cruiser size exception to the minimum mass requirement. So according to Whisper if you have a 2,600,000,001 mass wormhole (i.e. 2x mass of mothership) you can fly a mothership through it and return, then fly a vexor through it and collapse the wormhole. However if, after you fly it through, you fly a vexor through it then there wont be enough mass left for you to bring the mothership home. Thus your mothership would be trapped in W-Space. It is impossible to accidentally trap a cruiser (except for a really heavy one) in W-Space unless you actually collapse the wormhole. Oddly enough this is an Internet-** analogy...EVE and . analogies... The Mothership/pumpkin stretches the "hole", and it gets all torn** and collapses to be smaller. Still a "hole" but it certainly won't let you fit a pumpkin through it again...oh no, it'll stick to cucumbers or squash/Thorax. Sore wormholes. 7

Johnster Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:10:00 - [1441] Edited by: Johnster on 11/02/2009 08:14:41 Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Kessiaan I have refined my idea further, based on this devblog. I don't expect this to actually be possible, but, I'd still like to know how something like this would be prevented (or if I should start recruiting people for my hairbrained scheme) Originally by: Zilli Zilp Now, if there are 2-way wormholes you just jump forth and back often enough between 'your' wormhole system and the other eve-system until the wormhole despawns. The more I think about the current as-described mechanic, the more I think it's an "I Win" button for large alliances. Consider: once you get a POS anchored in a W system, it will be very difficult to dislodge. In order to take it down, your enemies must find a wormhole connection to it that is large enough to permit them to bring in a fleet sufficient to take down the POS. However, the situation is asymmetric; the POS owners, using their alts stationed in the system, will simply do regular scans for wormholes. These will roughly sort into several categories: 1) Wormholes big enough to allow enough tonnage in to be a threat to the POS, and which connect to an area controlled by an enemy that might mount an attack. These will be quickly "used up" until their remaining mass limit renders an attack futile, then either closed by the same technique, or left open as bait, guaranteeing overwhelming superiority against any gang foolish enough to enter. 2) Wormholes that link to friendly space. These will be used for logistics, and in particular, reinforcing the POS. After a certain point, the POS will be sufficiently strong that it simply can't be taken down, because the forces needed to do so won't fit through the largest possible wormhole. 3) Wormholes that link to Empire/Lowsec will be used to get the goodies out, and supply newbie meat to the grinder. The point is that larger alliances, because they control more systems, are more likely to get enough type-2 wormholes (which, after the initial once, can be small) to make the POS invulnerable before a rival will get a wormhole that lets them take down the POS. Also, during the construction period, they can rapidly cycle the wormholes until they get one they like, whereas their opponents must get lucky and find a big wormhole and assemble an attack fleet and get through before the W-space residents close it. Furthermore, even if the system doesn't have a local fuel source, the ability to cycle the wormholes makes this at most an inconvenience. As the system is currently described, the likely final stability point will be heavily deathstar'd W-space systems controlled by the large alliances. So, what can be done to avoid this, or at least slow it down? One possibility might be a mechanic where ships of a certain mass or greater have a very good chance of causing the wormhole to destabilize and send them to a random system; a group-jump system could be used to jump an entire gang at once, combining their masses, so that people don't get split up. But even that only slows things down, because for the larger alliances, it will be worth it to send "blind" seeding expeditions through wormholes with everything needed to set up a POS, even if the chance is 100% you'll go to a random system. In the early days, since almost all of them will be unclaimed, it will be a good bet. Once you've got the POS up and some people in the system, you will be able to rapidly link back to your logistical support. Short of not allowing POS in W-space, I don't see an obvious solution. We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable. Similar mechanics to an outpost that can not be destroyed, but can be captured (sovrenity mechanics apply also). These would need to be expensive, and like a normal jumpgate allow anyone through, not just friendly players. It would also be really cool if the new structure added the stable wormhole to alliance/blue players overviews (like a normal gate).
Abulurd Boniface Gallente Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:58:00 - [1442] I like the general idea. It seems to me as if wormholes will be a natural barrier against big fleet operations [if someone posted that already, I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole threadnaught]. One fleet goes through, another fleet can't join the new location because there won't be enough mass space left to shift the entire fleet through it. The tactic then would be to scan out a wormhole, see how much mass it will allow, jump through it with a fleet that will consume the mass allowance. The wormhole collapses behind the fleet and it leaves them time [until the next hole opens into that system] to explore and exploit the system. Eventually a wormhole will open to another location and all the goodies that were found in the new system are carted out. If there are stations at the far end that capsuleers can dock at, that could be the difference between an adventurous corp and a legendary rich one... A challenge. Abulurd Boniface ME ME CEO For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease.
Braaage Ministry of Craft	Posted - 2009.02.11 15:08:00 - [1443] I compiled a list of most DEV answers on the subject of wormholes and other answers from various other posts. You can see it HERE. -- POSs, Outposts, Exploration, Mining, Invention, Boosters, EA EVE Database, Character Generator & more
Bai Guang Caldari Edge Of Infinity H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:05:00 - [1444] Originally by: Johnster * FEATURE REQUEST * Option 1: Wormhole stability/administration array. We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable. Similar mechanics to an outpost that can not be destroyed, but can be captured (sovrenity mechanics apply also). These would need to be expensive, and like a normal jumpgate allow anyone through, not just friendly players. It would also be really cool if the new structure added the stable wormhole to alliance/blue players overviews (like a stargate). This structure should be placeable on either side of the wormhole (but only one is required). If the wormhole is located in empire or in lowsec, these would require the same mechanics as an empire POS to be onlineable. Option 2: Wormhole administration outpost. These would work very much like the above, except they would also function as an outpost, but with fewer services (probebly just cloning, and a new administration service that can be disabled to block access to the wormhole). These would not be allowed in empire for obvious reasons. This is probebly too grand for any initial release. I personally feel that this these ideas go against what CCP is trying to do w/ wormholes at this time, otherwise they could just have added more 0.0 K-Space. They have also already come out and said that you will not be able to claim SOV in W-Space, so its a moot point. Now I do like the idea posted a few pages back about a dedicated exploration ship that has a "siege" mode of keeping a WH open longer than it should. Maybe we'll see said ship after ORE figures out how much isk they would make w/ such a design (next major patch ) Just my two cents anyway...
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 14:48:00 - [1445] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. So... if I understand this correctly. If you get podded in W-space your character dies. Because if it's not possible to clonejump into wormhole space, then it's equally impossible for the pod scanner to send its information back to the cloning facility in K-space. Or have you forgotten how FTL communication in Eve works? Since capsule tech uses the same FTL communication principles as clonejumping, you would have to remove every character that dies in W-space, otherwhise not allowing clonejumping into(and out of) W-space is an arbitrary design decision that doesn't even follow the backstory. PS. would've said something sooner but didn't notice this arbitrary "design decision" till now. -- stuff --
Bai Guang Caldari Edge Of Infinity H E L I C O N	Posted - 2009.02.13 14:23:00 - [1446] Well its not an issue of if you can or can not clone jump. The design premis is that of CCP not wanting to allow people to "own" W-Space. If they were looking for that dynamic, they could have just added more SOVable 0.0 space. If clone jumping was enabled, it would give an unfair advantage for those engaging in said activity. CCP wants there to be the possiblity of you getting suck out in W-Space if you didnt plan accordingly. "oops, i dont have any probes, I guess I'll just CJ back to K-Space, and then I'll have this clone here to Rat with when I feel like it..." So the idea of disabling CJing is a good one IMHO. As far as the mechanic works, where CJing and being poded use the "same technology", well you just have to press the I beleve button
Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:01:00 - [1447] We are getting new ships, new npc¦s even new AI for some npc¦s. I have heard some talk about planetary ring, any news on them? There is not much new for miners, don¦t get me wrong, I love the Orca. I want new belts, planetary ring or some thing more then just the normal asteriod belts.
MadWoof	Posted - 2009.02.14 16:28:00 - [1448] I have been trying the new scanners on test server trying to find a WH to c how hard they are to find...cant even sort out the scanning, I find signals and can do bugger all with them...how long till we get the new scanning blog!!!!
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.15 02:48:00 - [1449] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 15/02/2009 02:49:44 Originally by: Bai Guang Well its not an issue of if you can or can not clone jump. The design premis is that of CCP not wanting to allow people to "own" W-Space. If they were looking for that dynamic, they could have just added more SOVable 0.0 space. If clone jumping was enabled, it would give an unfair advantage for those engaging in said activity. CCP wants there to be the possiblity of you getting suck out in W-Space if you didnt plan accordingly. "oops, i dont have any probes, I guess I'll just CJ back to K-Space, and then I'll have this clone here to Rat with when I feel like it..." So the idea of disabling CJing is a good one IMHO. As far as the mechanic works, where CJing and being poded use the "same technology", well you just have to press the I beleve button you can't just go and stick a cattleprod in your ear and say "I want to believe." That's fanboi attitude. Clonejumping as a whole is pretty crap, it made the universe tiny, I'd rather see it removed as a whole, but it's here and I'll have to deal with it. There is no reason at all that clonejumping wouldn't work from a backstory perspective, as long as the clone facilities are present on both ends. They finally have a use that might actually make clonejumping besides the ability to clonejump around attacking people all the fracking way up north while your space in the southernmost tip of known space and still having no issues at all defending your own space(which is pretty crap and is what makes known space feel so small while 90% of 0.0 is mostly underused). But NOOOOOOO, game design disregards backstory completely(we'll retcon it later, right guys ) and arbitrarily doesn't allow people to use ship-board clonebays to get people into W-space, it's not like ship-based clonebays aren't being used, right? BTW if they do use the clonebay that still means they're only in a pod in W-space, getting ships and other supplies there has to go the wormhole route. /rant -- stuff --
Inflnltyshock	Posted - 2009.02.15 23:38:00 - [1450] jump clones make it easier to move yourself from one area to another but they have no effect on ships, modules, or any other gear so it is still necessary to waste time with that end of the logistics. there are more than enough time sinks in this game and jump clones are the best addition ever to reduce wasted time. this is a game, not a job. i hereby nominate whomever came up with the jumpclone idea for a nobel prize. and my strongest recommendation to the pope for canonization.

Kaworu Tabris Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.16 20:50:00 - [1451] Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Gnulpie It would be even more awesome if there would be an x% chance that there are only wormholes leading into wormhole space and not back to eve space! This way it would be really possible that you would end up with some space-nomanding in the (desperate) search for a way back. I'll let Greyscale answer this in more detail in his blog, but I think he's come up with a different solution in the interim that might make getting home bit more difficult from the wormholes with higher difficulty levels. So yes, it might turn into an epic trek back home. I can't help but imagine a fleet a la BSG. I can't wait to take a fleet in to get lost. . . . . I'm such a nerd. CCP, you guys are pure win.
Manina Boat Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.02.18 23:48:00 - [1452] Originally by: Ki Tarra "Uh, guys that Orca we just killed nearly closed the wormhole. First one through the hole keeps his ship, everyone else gets to self destruct." This is a comedy moment I am really looking forward to
Che Biko Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2009.02.19 00:19:00 - [1453] Originally by: CCP Whisper Space Greenpeace contacted us and threatened Space Boycotts and Space Demonstrations if we put Space Whales into space. Space Greenpeace prefers we keep the Space Whales in the Space Zoo? I want to thank everyone contributing to EvE, players and all, whatever your motivations are.
Mashimara	Posted - 2009.02.19 07:16:00 - [1454] Edited by: Mashimara on 19/02/2009 07:21:05 Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 26/01/2009 17:52:32 So can I clone into wormhole space? Nope. Design is you get in through: Wormholes. Who knows what happens in the future though. Technology catches up, new opportunities are created, etc. So... if I understand this correctly. If you get podded in W-space your character dies. Because if it's not possible to clonejump into wormhole space, then it's equally impossible for the pod scanner to send its information back to the cloning facility in K-space. Or have you forgotten how FTL communication in Eve works? Since capsule tech uses the same FTL communication principles as clonejumping, you would have to remove every character that dies in W-space, otherwhise not allowing clonejumping into(and out of) W-space is an arbitrary design decision that doesn't even follow the backstory. PS. would've said something sooner but didn't notice this arbitrary "design decision" till now. Your logic fails the test. You MUST be in a STATION to clone jump OUT of a system. Since there are NO stations and no outposts, you CAN'T JC out of w-space. BUT you could death clone out. Like wise, being able to JC to an UNKNOWN location in space is impossible. The ONLY way your JC gets back to its home station is through the gate systems relays!!! Since there is no relay going TO w-space, you can not JC to a clone vat in w-space. And before you say, "But JC and death clones use the same technology." No, they don't. Think BSG, clone hub ship some place that gets the information via FTL carrier waves, rather than through the gate system. Science solved and CCP saves face. Thank you, thank you... Mashimara
Valadeya uthanaras Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.02.19 21:48:00 - [1455] Just a litle wondering , will these new wormhole make it possible to travel into previously closed space (aka Jove) or it still be closed ( even tought wormhole would ba a fantastic way to open that space again Valadeya
Kleb Siella Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.20 03:10:00 - [1456] Nice save Mashimara. And no, I'm sure the Jove rather handily have some sort of WH jamming tech, no visiting them even via holes. However I want to see if I have this right. There's no point trying to build a database of W-Space as they are a blank slate, upon which the random number generator paints a bunch of exploration sites. Leaving the 'normal' space of the system as having all the individuality of er... a blank slate? I was kind of hoping they'd be stuff to do in normal space, sights to see rather than just sites to see.
TexasWARlord	Posted - 2009.02.20 12:28:00 - [1457] First order of business Braaage Ministry of Craft Thank you for taking the time to compile a easy to digest synopsis of this thread based on the developers answers. Sifting this thread for relavent information has been to say the least a challenge and quite tedious (Two Thumbs Up) Second order of business CCP AWESOME - WIN Now my question and input: Quote: There is also the chance that you could stumble across a route through wormhole space that links two widely separated areas of known space and gives you a lucrative, fast trade route for as long as the wormholes stay open. Or perhaps the route leads into the backyard of your sworn enemy...at which point you may be faced with the question of what ships to send through to maximise the potential of the mass allowance the wormholes possess. Based on a statement already made about the vast majority of 0.0 not being used currently I would assume (and hope) that this rare phenomina could also lead to currently unclaimed space in a known system thus allowing a ambitious alliance to claim sov in a remote area of space. Quote: Q - Just for clarification, what is the likelyness of an exit-wormwhole leading to insecure/0.0 space from a wormwhole-system entered from high security space ? A - Low. Not zero, but not that high For lack of a better term I would call this the jackpot spin... If a Alliance found a back door like this and maximised the potential of the mass allowance of the wormhole and jumped enough equipment to begin a sov claim and setup shop... Then effectivly if they could hold it, these untapped areas could now become utilized and a populated. As I see it the most difficult aspect of colonization of remote areas is getting through the established pipelines (routes) now controlled by the larger and more established alliances. Question: Can you verify for me, will this be part of the mechanics ? If so will it be rougly a 1 out of 100 chance or 1 out of a million ? If this has not been discussed could you consider it? It would no doubt spur the interest of many small alliances to explore even more with the hopes that they could find that jackpot spin that would lead them to the very edge of enexplored unclaimed space. Sure again it would be a fight to keep it and to get supplies in and out but in many ways it would change the landscape and open oportunities to the diligent, prepared and brave...
Jensius Duo Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:02:00 - [1458] Originally by: Theyu Civaro Edited by: Theyu Civaro on 10/02/2009 20:07:13 Originally by: CCP Prism X But it -->would<-- be SOCOOL if you'd suddenly pop out of a new wormhole that is just spawning in the middle of a fleet fight, launches you out at umpteenmillion KmS and starts sucking in half of the fleefight due to proximity. Like your way of thinking And then colapse due to the max mass of the wormhole beeing exceded, thus stranding the ships from the two hostile fleets in uncharted space. And then have them make peace, and mine together, in order to back home. Awww, so cute!
Flushot Amarr Flu shots here	Posted - 2009.02.25 09:40:00 - [1459] I'd find it nice if you could take an industrial hauler into WH space and bring with you blueprints and a pos. Setup a pos and be able to do a bit of resource gathering which you could then use to build items including ships. Say a system had great riches, you could bring smaller mass ships in, gather resources and build some battleships for your buddies and even a freighter. That way you could potentially haul back vast riches with you. As a way to prevent attempted permanent residence you could have system cleansing. Say a wormhole gets too close to a star and will completely destroy everything in the system. If you don't pack up and leave in a certain amount of time. YOu will loose everything. But if you managed to get a few freighter loads of stuff out you could refine the rest of your stuff load it up in the last few haulers and move out (hopefully to some place safe). I have a comment on scanning wormholes.. We could use some of the existing probes already in the game to send probes into wormholes. If these probes return we will know vast information about whats inside the wormhole and how stable the wormhole is.. However if the probe doesn't return, your left with what little information you can scan from the eventhorizion and the knowledge that its will be a one way trip for the short term. Last comment. I find it would add a nice dynamic to the game if say for instance a very small number of these wormholes opened up next close to asteroid belts, stations, stargates, inside missions. This would allow newer players with no designer to do any scanning with the ability to let curiosity get the best of them. Maybe the see one in their mission, so they call up their corp mates and they send a spur of the moment voyage into uncharted territory. Either they will fail miserably, or they will be extremely excited about what they have achieved. thanks /end 2 cents.
TexasWARlord	Posted - 2009.02.27 01:52:00 - [1460] I have a genuine concern regarding the graphics side of this expansion. I know this is the wormhole thread however I have been testing probing on SISSI as well and ooohing and ahhhing the graphic changes. I can normaly tripple log on my (less that a year old) laptop and my wifes PC. (2.6 Ghz) However even running a stand alone client with the new upgrade is horrible. Lags between station docking/undocking, lag with tranfering mods abord ship and trying to swich between clients (Alt Tab) even creates a black screen until the graphics catch up or I hit escape and close window. Considering this is only SISSI with 350 current players I pray this is a isolated incident or it will ruin the game. 4 Accounts plus my wifes will be closed and I for one will stop playing... Please tell me this is not the future of the game...

Jake Raven Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.27 02:02:00 - [1461] I had an idea for future wormhole expansion, later after everyone is used to the idea of wormholes... Once a wormhole to uncharted space has been found (through scanning). It should be possible to construct/anchor a wormhole-gate before jumping through with the other end of the gate and constructing/anchoring it at the other end. Much like the original eve gate was built. Obviously there would be restrictions and risks to doing this. The first of which should be based on the existing features of jumping through wormholes: Will the wormhole support a ship big enough to carry the second half of the gate through, this same basic physics applies for standard wormhole jumping. The second would be, will the wormhole stay open long enough to anchor gate1 jump and anchor gate2, this would be based on the random pre-determined time the wormhole will stay open. Another possible risk could be after a few days or weeks of successful wormhole-gate travel the wormholes instability crashes the gates connection, severing both gates from each other. meaning anyone trapped in the uncharted side would have to find another wormhole to get out This feature would really add to the "exploration" feeling, and allow corp/alliances to forge new frontiers into the uncharted areas of space by setting up maintainable POS, but with the not having any sovereignty opens the uncharted systems up to a new kind of warfare... with the possibilities of multiple gates being anchored into the same uncharted system (obviously a limit to how many gates) corps/alliances and even freelances/pirates would be waging war in uncharted space protecting the link back to their part of known space. As well as the possibility of creating trade routs through uncharted systems from one end of known space to the other . So that's my idea. What do you think. I would also love to here what any of the CCP team think? A revolution is not the begging, it is the return of a full cycle. -Commander Joaquin Raven, Federation Star Fleet
spyor	Posted - 2009.02.27 10:35:00 - [1462] read it and approve it, at last somewhere to go where i can get ganked by an npc instead of a pirate. AND I might actually get something decent for a change!!! /me pvp skills aint too good! but they may start to get better now on my terms.
Marconi Bandr	Posted - 2009.02.27 23:43:00 - [1463] Originally by: Braaage I compiled a list of most DEV answers on the subject of wormholes and other answers from various other posts. You can see it HERE. Seems to me it would be better to keep this all in one place: Unstable Wormholes


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