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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 26 post(s)
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.11 01:52:00 - [301] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id say it can be much faster than current TQ system BUT moving probes around system is really a pain. System map needs tactical overlay for probe and signature "height". Or like someone proposed - you drag and drop probes on X Y plane and CTRL+drag for Z axis (like in homeworld). Would be like 10x faster. I see this coming up a lot - am I right in thinking that it's really not obvious that the cube is a control? If you want to use homeworld-style controls just use the vertical arrows and the top/bottom surfaces of the cube and that gives you planar+vertical movement. This is the way I've been working with the system so far, but there are several other guys in the office who are using all cube faces to get things positioned much faster. could you elaborate as to why you absolutely have to reinvent the wheel when there has been others that came up with an elegant solution that is less annoying to use and doesn't require an ugly widget to manipulate. -- stuff --
Sang Jin Gallente Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.02.11 02:16:00 - [302] Originally by: CCP Greyscale I see this coming up a lot - am I right in thinking that it's really not obvious that the cube is a control? If you want to use homeworld-style controls just use the vertical arrows and the top/bottom surfaces of the cube and that gives you planar+vertical movement. This is the way I've been working with the system so far, but there are several other guys in the office who are using all cube faces to get things positioned much faster. No, I don't think you are right in thinking that most people don't realize the cube is a control. I think most people DO realize this but have the same problems with it that I have. That is that either the cube is so large that it covers everything around it (including what your scanning and other cubes) making it almost impossible to move the control you actually want to move without moving the others out of the way first, OR, the cube is so small that you couldn't click on the faces even if you wanted to. I hate to say it but the homeworld method (click and drag freely on a 2D plane, hold a key and drag for the 3rd plane) really is the easiest way of moving any object in 3D space using a 2D pointing device. This method is used by many CAD packages as well, because its actually easy and intuitive. Its MAJOR bonus is that it doesn't litter the screen with controls, you just grab the object and move it. The box is even annoying for POS deployment, and it gets complaints all the time for that as well, its just that people aren't deploying POSs even 20 mins so they do it once or twice, complain and then get on with their lives hoping they don't have to do it again before the method is fixed. (Sorry to be so negative, I like the whole scanning system, just not the box control, and this is a perfect opportunity to replace it with something better)
Alan Kell Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.11 02:28:00 - [303] Originally by: Tenia Solium Personally I like the new Triangulation idea, but really, keep probe scan times the same. It add a reason to train the skills. But, instead of random luck of hitting your target, the goal of a good plex scanner, will be to get the probes into correct position the fastest, then click the scan button and wait the 80+ secs for scan results. Agreed. On top of that, one of the stated goals of future EVE development(in one of the speeches at the fanfest), was to make EVE easier to get into. To me, that means an intuitive user interface that's easy to learn and plenty of depth to keep the interest there. This new change to scanning seems to do the opposite. The interface is unintuitive(thereby making the learning cliff steeper) and reduces the amount of depth for those who don't just want to pew pew all day. It's frustrating enough using the widget and arrow system while setting up a POS, so it's not a very appealing thought to have to use it for scanning as well.
General Meridus Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.11 06:18:00 - [304] I'm a max skilled cov ops and probe guy. This is third, I believe, major overhaul of the probing system. I sat down with an open mind to see what they came up with. It has been a struggle. The overall idea is fine. But man is this UI frustrating. (Not all that good looking either.) I can't see through all the clutter. Too much clutter. I feel I'm doing a pixel hunt moving the boxes around. I am unable to get the view I need to see what I want. Having the camera reset to the box I click on, is not sufficient. The boxes at least need to toggle on and off. All of them together. Frankly the existing transparent bubbles on TQ, are good looking and easy to see through. Reduce the size of the arrow box As others have stated, give us a command to warp those things AFTER were done playing with em. Re-color or do somethng about the transparency of the widgets. Recalled probes will not return to cargo, if ship is moving. Is this intended? So far its been: drop probes, carefully try to move a widget, but oh, don't let go of the mouse button or the @#&% thing will warp off. OK, I got it set. Scan. No results. Huh? Reset camera view a few times. Geeze... I'm 70 AUs off where I thought I was. Rinse, repeat. Ok, I got it. Now I can't see anything but stacked boxes. You get the idea.... If this was going to stay pvp or a mini profession, I suppose we'd all deal with it. But this is for the whole player base. EVE is a great game, but this is still a bit rough. And, red circle? Haven't we already been down this road? I have minor color issues, and I can't see it.
Hotblue	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:04:00 - [305] Can you please make it so at least only 1 arrow box is visible at the same time, I'm having problems with launching a new probe but being unable to click on it to make it move because I have a lot of other probes out.... The arrow box is not particularly intuitive but I can get used to it. It would be helpful if an additional guide sphere was added which intersected the center points of your 2 most distant probes, because the difficult part is getting a sensible pattern for pinpointing, if there was a guide sphere you could more easily arrange the probes around the thing you are going to scan. Overall I think I love the new system, its got some issues in larger systems but I think its not disasterous, after all the old system had many problems when it came to small systems with planets all spread at 3au from eachother. I don't really get how the element of chance works, I'd like it explained, if I'm working with a single probe I can get hits varying from 0.3au to 5au on the same site by repeating the scan, is this intended?
Kraal Rokviente	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:18:00 - [306] Edited by: Kraal Rokviente on 11/02/2009 08:21:31 Edit: sorry looks like wrong thread i will repost it in the suggestion thread.
Killde Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:33:00 - [307] Edited by: Killde on 11/02/2009 08:36:20 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: FeralShadow PvP Probing -FeralShadow I would have thought that any competent opponent who knows they might be scan will be constantly warping and thus unfindable under any probing system. Granted currently it can be possible to catch the warp-spot of a slow-to-align ship if it's being sloppy and only using a couple of points, but this is a fairly rare case I think. I actually catch a lot of targets this way. Once I relise they are just warping around, I find a warpable near one of their safe spots. It's fairly easily to do as they'll spend around 30 seconds in the same general area. Once I have a nearby celestial and an approximate range to target (typically only takes me about one pass) I pop out a probe and reduce my scan range down to about .5 aus more then my estimated range to safespot. I then wait until they come back on scan and immediately start scanning. Since ships spend such a huge amount of their warp time in the deceleration stage and ship warp accelerations seem basically the same, I find I land a hit about 6-7 seconds after they fall out of warp with this method regardless of target ship class. Results in a very good chance of a hit right smack dab on their safe spot. I Warp in right away and have my fellow gang mates warp to me and we simply wait for him to come back. I'm surprised how often this works tbh. OFC this might still be possible with the new system. Narrow down a general area of a safe with the scanner and then cover the entire area with probes. Not sure if I'll be quite accurate enough, fast enough to do it as fast as before however... BTW please add gang warp to result option, thanks.
Johnster Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:43:00 - [308] Edited by: Johnster on 11/02/2009 08:43:24 Not sure if this is the right place for this post, but here it is anyway... * FEATURE REQUEST * Option 1: Wormhole stability/administration array. We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable. Similar mechanics to an outpost that can not be destroyed, but can be captured (sovrenity mechanics apply also). These would need to be expensive, and like a normal jumpgate allow anyone through, not just friendly players. It would also be really cool if the new structure added the stable wormhole to alliance/blue players overviews (like a stargate). This structure should be placeable on either side of the wormhole (but only one is required). If the wormhole is located in empire or in lowsec, these would require the same mechanics as an empire POS to be onlineable. Option 2: Wormhole administration outpost. These would work very much like the above, except they would also function as an outpost, but with fewer services (probebly just cloning, and a new administration service that can be disabled to block access to the wormhole). These would not be allowed in empire for obvious reasons. This is probebly too grand for any initial release.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:12:00 - [309] Johnster, This new content is supposed to be hard to get to. Adding beacons to 100 private goldmines in your home 0.0 system doesn't seem like a good thing to me. My alt is part of a quite large alliance, and if such a system where implemented we would order every pilot capable to probe anything to go grab every wormhold in sight 23/7 and anchor a wormhole stabilizer to it. So, maybe you won't get any as the WHs stop moving around What we could have, is a skill that reduce the penalty for bringing a ship through. So, the better skill, the more pilots can enter before it collapses.
olzi Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:20:00 - [310] Originally by: Johnster Option 1: Wormhole stability/administration array. We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable. Similar mechanics to an outpost that can not be destroyed, but can be captured (sovrenity mechanics apply also). These would need to be expensive, and like a normal jumpgate allow anyone through, not just friendly players. It would also be really cool if the new structure added the stable wormhole to alliance/blue players overviews (like a stargate). This structure should be placeable on either side of the wormhole (but only one is required). If the wormhole is located in empire or in lowsec, these would require the same mechanics as an empire POS to be onlineable. No, we really don't, your suggestion is opposite to the whole concept of wormholes. I'm sure you wouldn't mind turning all the possible wh systems to your private isk grinding arenas, but they are suppose to be ever-changing systems that are available to everyone, not something to strap on to your pos. The rules need to be the same for everyone, if its possible to link wormholes to sov holding alliances then they become nothing more than extra 0.0 space. This discussion doesn't belong to this thread anyway, sorry for the offtopic.
Sanche Tehkeli Gallente Bionesis Technologies	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:26:00 - [311] Well coming back to the Probing Interface. Where I don't find it too painly nor dumb, i still believe there should be some improvements to move probes around. Currently the main annoying thing is that you have to do a lot of mouse moves to place your probes correctly, zoom in/out with wheel, right-click and slide the map, left-click probes and control to move, back and forth. Sometimes you have to close some windows or reduce them (true on 17'' screens). It is frustrating to have probes warping, have to wait for to recatch control, etc... So i write it again : to have a hotkey (alt for example) pressed preventing probes to move would be great. You select your probe, press alt and keep it pressed, move the box, reduce ui, move the box, rotate the map, move the box and finally where you're satisfied you release the alt key and the probe warps to the defined position. True, would be wonderful.
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:46:00 - [312] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 11/02/2009 11:45:52 Originally by: Johnster Option 1: Wormhole stability/administration array. We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable. No... no no no... as one previously said, it's against the whole concept. Originally by: Johnster Option 2: Wormhole administration outpost. See Option 1 ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Valdam Hiram	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:57:00 - [313] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 11/02/2009 11:45:52 Originally by: Johnster Option 1: Wormhole stability/administration array. We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable. No... no no no... as one previously said, it's against the whole concept. Originally by: Johnster Option 2: Wormhole administration outpost. See Option 1 I might be wrong but didn't ccp dev's mention about bringing methods to stabilize the wormholes in the future? OnTopic: Still would like to know the ETA for fix for that bug which prevents ppl below astrometrics lvl 5 to test out revamped exploration.
Johnster Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:59:00 - [314] Edited by: Johnster on 11/02/2009 12:06:57 Originally by: olzi No, we really don't, your suggestion is opposite to the whole concept of wormholes. It may differ from the concept of unstable ones, but it also opens up a whole new area of pvp fighting for the systems. Originally by: olzi I'm sure you wouldn't mind turning all the possible wh systems to your private isk grinding arenas, but they are suppose to be ever-changing systems that are available to everyone, not something to strap on to your pos. The rules need to be the same for everyone, if its possible to link wormholes to sov holding alliances then they become nothing more than extra 0.0 space. Great. EVE needs more 0.0, and needs some new things to shoot rather then POSes and outposts... And surely any wormholes/systems made permanent could be removed from the queue so that another spawns somewhere else, or I guess the structure could be made destroyable to collapse the wormhole. I see no reason at all the 2 types can not exist in parallel without effecting eachother. Originally by: olzi This discussion doesn't belong to this thread anyway, sorry for the offtopic. Probebly, but it is all related.
Eve Spair Caldari Nova Prospekt Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:07:00 - [315] So what will happen to our Sisters launchers? Will there be Sisters variation of the new probe launchers? Will our current sisters launchers be converted into those?
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:11:00 - [316] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 11/02/2009 12:15:39 To Johnster You have 5000+ systems already to pvp in, a big proportion of them to fight for and 1/4 of these are barely visited by anyone. (Not to say that pvp should not happen in WH obviously) WormHoles are not and hopefully will never be intended to be part of your Sovereignty-like/space-holding dream. Suggestions and Feature requests --> That way but don't hold your breath on it. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:18:00 - [317] On Sisi the sisters launchers are converted to give omgDONE! scanning time. I've not compared them to the regular ones you can buy on market, but if any dev reads this I suggest giving sister launchers better ROF than the regular ones as I guess the probe strength isn't determined by the launcher anyway. Or maybe lower fitting req, as a cov-ops is pretty swamped anyway.. Which brings me to my next question.. Why would we ever bring a cov-ops with scan time bonus to probe things when we can use a Recon with close to same scanning time ???? Or even a BS with cloak :P
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:20:00 - [318] Edited by: Sophia Truthspeaker on 11/02/2009 12:22:26 Originally by: Johnster Wormhole stability/administration array. As stated by poster above. Not a good idea and here is why: Being able to stabilize Wormholes you effectivly open it up to caps online of 0.0. At the moment you won't be able to deploy massive fleets in there, because a wormhole can and will close before the whole fleet went through. At the same token putting up a pos in wspace will be very hard, because fueling it will be more than a pain and quite possible impossible. Stabilizing a wormholes will allow fleets and permanent occupacion. So if you don't want the wspace becoming the 0.0 players plaything alone (and I don't want that, and i think neither does CCP) they have to stay unstable. If the wormholes allow only smallish to medium gangs to safely keep together the whole system becomes more like an extension to low sec, for all the pirates out there while still allowing a sensible amount of security to actually make money there (due to the sheer number of systems). Its the buff to the low sec residents they wanted and needed for quite a while. If you stabilize wormholes, you take away one possible connection. If a new one would spawn, sooner or later you could fly from one wsystem into a dozen other ones, because there would be soo many free wormholes. Alternativly if you don't add another free wormhole after fixing one you reduce to total amount of entry points or make some wsystems unachessable. If you stabilize wormholes you can basicly build a bridge. Connect four or five wormholes together, and the chances are greatly increased to either a backway to someone you don't like, or to highsec (assuming you can't stabilize a wormhole in high sec). If you can actually stabilize a wormhole in highsec, too, you can effectivly build yourself a pipe from 0.0 region to highsec. The whole 0.0 logistics (jump bridges, cynos, rorquals & jump freighter) would be greatly reduced in effectivness. That being said, perhpas a way to temporarily stabilize a wormhole would be acceptable. Not in the sense that you can fly your cap fleet through it, but in the sense that it will not close behind the the smallish gang that went through to grab the rewards at the other end. Or perhaps a pos system that will open a one way wormholes back to the pos so that you at least have a safe way out. Perhaps something along that line... And while the idea of slowly expanding someones territory is a bad idea for the current incarnation of wormholes, it sounds like a very good idea for a second type of wormholes that would expand the 0.0 regions. But first, lets expand low sec and see how it works? Edit: putting a few more breaks in the text. _________ The truth is out there
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:37:00 - [319] An opinion. Currently, barring the astro V bug, every player with astrometrics II can use every kind of probe. In the current system you had to have astro V to be able to use the longest range probes (observator and ferret). Why the requirement has been removed for new long range probes? Is this intended? If yes, what is the rationale?
Valdam Hiram	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:45:00 - [320] Originally by: Space Wanderer An opinion. Currently, barring the astro V bug, every player with astrometrics II can use every kind of probe. In the current system you had to have astro V to be able to use the longest range probes (observator and ferret). Why the requirement has been removed for new long range probes? Is this intended? If yes, what is the rationale? OP has stated it in the very first post: Quote: The basic principle of the new system is that each probe just generates a distance to whatever it scans. If you have two probes scanning the same thing, those two distances resolve to a circular result. Three probes will give you two results*, one above the plane and one below. Four gives you a solid hit which you can warp to. The result doesn't become warpable until you get a hit with four probes. Also, you do have to triangulate - there are measures in place to stop you cheating and dropping four probes in the same spot :) in other words, the probing system has changed more in to player skill based system than character skill point based system. Other words astrometrics works now so that higher your skill level, more probes you can launch to help you in triangulating down the site. It was stated in previous posts that how much probes you can launch with what lvl of astrometrics.
WoOhcska	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:11:00 - [321] Why do you change the scan time? This new 10 sec scan time will be a .... everybody will be able to scan.. This is not fair. I spent more than 2 months to improve my scanning ability, 'cos this is how I get the ISK day by day... But this patch will ruin my life. Why don't you keep the scan time as it is?
MILK Monk Rytiri Lva R.U.R.	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:12:00 - [322] will there be any indicator what is the "state" of wormhole in term of how many ships can get through? I mean, someone will find w-hole, team of ships will try to get through but only one will get through because 1 hour before already 10 ships jumped through... Maybe some indicator like "wormhole signal strength" which would say something like ... wormhole signal is strong ... wormhole signal is weak and it will probably colapse soon It will not provide precise info, but it can help with decision a bit...
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:22:00 - [323] Originally by: WoOhcska But this patch will ruin my life. It is unclear so far if the scan time will stay that short. And as of now, it is too soon to say that it will stay exactly as it is today. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.11 14:39:00 - [324] Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 14:40:34 Edited by: DrAtomic on 11/02/2009 14:39:01 Originally by: CCP Greyscale I'm not sure I agree that harder sites have to take a whole lot longer to scan. Their rarity is already governed by their spawn chance; long discovery times select by masochism which I'm not sure is a positive thing. I like your thinking, less grind -> moar fun. However us hardcore explorers have maxed their skills, rigs and hardwires/implants resulting in having results in say 10 minutes in the current system, the new system maxed skills and implants seem to loose out on their competitive edge all together (bit rough when you just invested 3.5 bil in implants). With the current system I fail to see where we could get an advantage for having invested all that time and isk over a fresh explorer without rigs/implants/hardwires at minimum skill requirements trained. For the skill/implant/hardwire/rig discussion here's an overview of the current stuff and their bonusses: Current skill overview Astrometrics - rank 3 - adds one scan group per level Signal Acquisition - rank 8 - 10% faster scanning per level Astrometric Pinpointing - rank 5 - 10% scan deviation reduction per level Astrometric Triangulation - rank 5 - 5% scan strength increase per level Covert Ops - rank 4 - covertop ship bonus based off this skill for -98% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level and 10% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Current hardwire / implant overview Slot 1 - Low-grade Virtue Alpha - +2 bonus to Perception - 1% bonus to scan strength of probes Slot 2 - Low-grade Virtue Beta - +2 bonus to Memory - 2% bonus to scan strength of probes Slot 3 - Low-grade Virtue Gamma - +2 bonus to Willpower - 3% bonus to scan strength of probes Slot 4 - Low-grade Virtue Delta - +2 bonus to Intelligence - 4% bonus to scan strength of probes Slot 5 - Low-grade Virtue Epsilon - +2 bonus to Charisma - 5% bonus to scan strength of probes Slot 6 - Low-grade Virtue Omega - 10% bonnus to set bonus - 25% bonus to the strength of all Virtue implants Slot 6 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPF-0 - Reduces maximum scan deviation by 2% Slot 6 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPF-1 - Reduces maximum scan deviation by 6% Slot 6 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPF-2 - Reduces maximum scan deviation by 10% Slot 7 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPG-0 - 1% scan strength bonus Slot 7 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPG-1 - 3% scan strength bonus Slot 7 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPG-2 - 5% scan strength bonus Slot 8 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPH-0 - 2% faster scanning with scan probes Slot 8 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPH-1 - 6% faster scanning with scan probes Slot 8 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPH-2 - 10% faster scanning with scan probes Slot 9 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPW-1 - 5% increase in chance of archaeological find Slot 9 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPX-1 - 5% increase in chance of data retrieval (hacking) Slot 9 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPY-1 - 5% increase in chance of salvage retrieval Slot 10 - Poteque Pharmaceuticals Prospector PPZ-1 - 5% reduction in cycle time of salvage, hacking and archaeology modules Current rig overview Gravity Capacitor Upgrade Rigs tech 1 - 10% faster scanning per rig Gravity Capacitor Upgrade Rigs tech 2 - 15% faster scanning per rig Note with the t2 rigs; their cost seems to be bugged as you can;t fit 2 to a recon (which would put it on par with a covops bonus wise) or on the covops, making them useless unless mixed with another rig. But it is considered waisting 5% of possible reduction timer for mixing it with other rigs (i.e. no advantage of using the t2). - - - Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.11 15:10:00 - [325] Have wormholes been fixed server side or are they still all collapsed? ----- Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.11 15:38:00 - [326] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: DrAtomic Please please please decrease the powergrid requirement of the Sisters Scan Launcher to what it was, it's hard enough fitting everything on a helios as is (powergrid wise) or give the helios 1 powergrid more to compensate. Done. Thank you very much! - - - Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
Gremwatch	Posted - 2009.02.11 15:38:00 - [327] Are the unfindable sites going to be fixed with the changing of the skill bonuses that has been alluded to or will they actual be reduced in difficulty.
Griffinator Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.11 15:46:00 - [328] Originally by: Tharrn Have wormholes been fixed server side or are they still all collapsed? still all colapsed finannly managed to find one today bm'ed it click the jump through button and sorry nope can't jump through the thing ahs collapsed thank you for spending a hour scanning me down have a nice day
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.11 16:08:00 - [329] After my bad experience yesterday, I'm curious whether anybody has successfully used the combat probes to probe down a frigate-sized target in open space. Also curious whether anybody has successfully probed any ship in a deadspace. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.11 16:22:00 - [330] Originally by: Griffinator Originally by: Tharrn Have wormholes been fixed server side or are they still all collapsed? still all colapsed finannly managed to find one today bm'ed it click the jump through button and sorry nope can't jump through the thing ahs collapsed thank you for spending a hour scanning me down have a nice day Bah! A small bit of info on what's happening by the wormhole team would be nice. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet

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