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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
Hoshi
Eviction.
   |
Posted - 2009.02.13 23:09:00 -
[451]
Edited by: Hoshi on 13/02/2009 23:09:29
It seems probe strength is actually inverse. The less strength the better.
A Combat Scanner Probe has a strength of 5 at 0.5 au, 10 at 1.0au, 20 at 2.0 etc.
Target Size = Signature Radius / Sensor Strength
Signal strength = Target Size / Probe Strength, result in %, value >= 1.0 > 100%
Combined probe strength of multiple probes are avg strength * 1.25
So if we place 4 0.5 au probes surrounding and very close to a target (to ignore signal reduction due to range) we get a combined probe strength of 6.25 which means that any target withs Target size of less than 6.25 can not be found.
To put this in perspective all force recons are just above this value so they can be found (unless they have ECCM) while all combat recons are just below and can not be found.
Most frigate are also below this value. The bantam mentioned earlier in this thread has 6.286 which means it can be found with perfectly placed probes.
Edit: Btw skill do NOT effect probe strength at this time.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:20:00 -
[452]
Edited by: Brixer on 13/02/2009 23:21:52
13. feb. 23:12 - LGK-VP
'Readings from your ship's computer suggest that this wormhole will take you into unexplored space. It's unlikely that CONCORD will be able to provide any assistance in such a remote area, so you should proceed with extreme caution.'
'Oh my god, it's full of stars
(Not a final art asset)
This wormhole has not yet begun its natural cycle of decay and should last at least another day.
This wormhole has not yet had its stability significantly disrupted by ships passing through it.'
Selecting the beacon and choosing 'Enter wormhole' did nothing, no message.
Not even the 'wormhole has collapsed' seen in earlier sisi builds.
Edit: Spamming the 'Enter wormhole' created a '23:18:53 Notify Session change already in progress.' then nothing.
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Nadecook
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:25:00 -
[453]
Edited by: Nadecook on 13/02/2009 23:25:03
theoretical and in my eyes, I scanned it down. But still nothing to narrow further down :(
and yes, they overlapped 3 times in every direction.
http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20090213231318ik3.jpg
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Sali Ladoon
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:27:00 -
[454]
so when are these wormholes start to do their job?
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Xelios
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:41:00 -
[455]
 Originally by: Nadecook
Edited by: Nadecook on 13/02/2009 23:31:41
Edited by: Nadecook on 13/02/2009 23:25:03
theoretical and in my eyes, I scanned it down. But still nothing to narrow further down :(
and yes, they overlapped 3 times in every direction.
http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20090213231318ik3.jpg
edit: activating probe after dock/undock not working
You need to pinpoint it with 4 overlapping probes to be able to warp to it.
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lobster2b
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:51:00 -
[456]
Got a signature on my scanns, hurray
nailed it down to a little red dot and covered it nicly with my 0.25 setup probes (7 pcs)
eatch probe gets 49,99%
and if i use all my 7 probes i get 36,5% +/- 1,*%
probe 1: 49,9%...2 probes 41,1%...3 probes 35,3%...5 probes 35,5%
6 probes 35,5%...7 probes 36,5%
just as it is said: every probe is witin 1,500,000km to the site
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Xelios
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.13 23:52:00 -
[457]
Do the wormholes show up as Cosmic Signatures or do they have their own type?
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Sali Ladoon
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Posted - 2009.02.14 00:05:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Xelios
Do the wormholes show up as Cosmic Signatures or do they have their own type?
they show up as cosmc signatures
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.14 00:28:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Marlenus on 14/02/2009 00:28:56
Edited by: Marlenus on 14/02/2009 00:28:28
Originally by: Hoshi
It seems probe strength is actually inverse. The less strength the better. A Combat Scanner Probe has a strength of 5 at 0.5 au, 10 at 1.0au, 20 at 2.0 etc.
Boy, they didn't design this system to be user-friendly and intuitive, did they?
Originally by: Hoshi
The bantam mentioned earlier in this thread has 6.286 which means it can be found with perfectly placed probes.
Just my bad luck that's the target I picked for my first careful test!
Thanks for this excellent detail work; I'm having bandwidth issues with the new patch so all I can do is read reports with interest. |
Cailais
Amarr
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 02:39:00 -
[460]
Originally by: lobster2b
Got a signature on my scanns, hurray
nailed it down to a little red dot and covered it nicly with my 0.25 setup probes (7 pcs)
eatch probe gets 49,99%
and if i use all my 7 probes i get 36,5% +/- 1,*%
probe 1: 49,9%...2 probes 41,1%...3 probes 35,3%...5 probes 35,5%
6 probes 35,5%...7 probes 36,5%
just as it is said: every probe is witin 1,500,000km to the site
No you're doinitwrong.
Its pretty obvious how the probes work. The 'overlap' area and the size of each of the probes determines the strength of your result.
The smaller the probe AND the smaller the overlap the stronger a result you'll get. The optimal position is to have a small overlap area, with as few small probes as you can achieve (i.e 4). Less than 4 and you dont get a good hit. MORE than 4 and you're essentially 'adding' to the overall 'overlap' of the probes.
This is to ensure players dont just dump 10 probes all right on top of each other for an easy hit.
If you're probes are to widely spaced, and the overlap is very large and the probe size is very large the result will be 'echoed' with a couple (or more, but Ive only seen two so far) 'mirror images'.
tl;dr - using more probes wont help.
C.
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Eraggan Sadarr
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.14 03:19:00 -
[461]
Don't know if it has been said, but give every probe in space a different color, with matching color tone on the widget (or whatever better idea you come up with). Will make it much easier to distinguish the different probes.
And maybe its just me but it seems the perspective in the solar system map has become very flat. I don't get a good 3D feel when i rotate around as i did in the old solar system map.
Eve Market Scanner - Marketlog comparisons |
Doc Toska
Reikoku
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.14 04:43:00 -
[462]
Another PVP usage that I see going away with the new system:
Setting up at sniping distance with "inaccurate" probes.
With the "old" system you can drop an Observer probe, scan, look at the list and deliberately pick a result that will guarantee that you end up 170-230km away from the intended target. When you scan for a large gaggle of hostiles close together there typically is such a result. Used to be pretty useful especially for the EW guys.
With the old (short) scan times you could set up in less than a minute (including warp times). With the new system that no longer sounds practical. |
Lost Hamster
Serenity and Hungarian Operational Team
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:13:00 -
[463]
This scanning needs adjustment for sure. 2 other guy and me tried to scan down a signature in Tama. My closest hit was 80% - after 1 hour of scanning.
One of the other guy did a 99.7% hit - he said:
"closest I got was 99.7%
the probes were all practically on top of each other
if I use 2 probes I get 99%, with 4 I get 70%
yeah, with 1 probe I have 99.5%, 2,5m distance"
And he could not get a better target.
I really suggest that we get a warp in point above 90%, just maybe you will need to fly longer to get to the target. |
Hoshi
Eviction.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 09:28:00 -
[464]
If you can't get 100% with 1 probe you will never get 100% with multiple probes as you get a 25% strength reduction when you combine probes.
Basically there is a hard limit both for ships and sites where below this point it's theoretically impossible to locate the target. For sites Greyscale has already said he will be rebalancing their signal size so no need to go on about that anymore.
For ships it's a different matter, no easy way to re balance their sizes. Could be it's intended to be impossible to find small ships, we haven't gotten any feedback this yet so hard to tell.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:27:00 -
[465]
Like i said in other topic. Is it possible to leave both systems in game?
TQ system for ships
SISI system for exploration
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:28:00 -
[466]
Hmm I started my own thread before looking here, redundantcy :-)
Anyway, from the last build, the probe widget reposition bug is fixed. Also the warping of probes is from automatic to manula on analyze. These are good fixes.
Now what we need more:
1. decide on the skill effects. one skill should affect launcher rate of fire as this is the most limiting factor in speed of scanning. initial deployement.
2. introduce small chance of false results ? this should be eliminated progressively with a skill :-) just for fun
3. seems that ship scanning is redundant now. it was a bit viable before, now it is simply not needed as you can only scan static ships. this means mission runners or stupid people.
4. probe placement, homeworld style as was suggested would be nice :-)
5. probe range indicator. I mean if an object (result, planet, belt, whatever) intersects the currently moved probe bubble, it should change color, start blinking. Any visual indicator that it is in probe range. helps with fine adjustment of probes.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:54:00 -
[467]
how about a "macro" that launches 4 probes in a tetrahedron of a desired distance from the ship? |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 11:39:00 -
[468]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
how about a "macro" that launches 4 probes in a tetrahedron of a desired distance from the ship?
1 second ROF on the expanded launcher would be a start :-) so you can lod 4 used probes, launch them all 4 (i.e. launcher needs autorepeat), move and scan. makes initial scan time quite nice.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 12:27:00 -
[469]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
This is a good proposal. There will however still be another problem: if scanning only takes a few secs (and assming with deviation the result is different each time) then you can scan several times and you can see the average/mean position of the deviated locations. That way you can still place a lot shorter range probes at the right positions and find it really quickly.
Any deviations will be determinstically calculated (ie, no random component) to avoid exactly this issue.
[ Sisi is down so ... ]
I'm really curious how you're are going to implement this deviation stuff. 
To me it seems that with the new system you want to replace uncertainty with unaccuracy. You want to remove the chance based element and make the skills still have an effect on the time to find stuff. Right?
The only way to do that is by giving inaccurate results, or in other words: by deviation. So characters with better skills get more accurate results and therefore will find targets sooner.
You say that deviation (with multple probes) will be deterministically calculated. In other words: by scanning multiple times (with the exact same setup) you will always get the same inaccurate result.
What i'm (obviously) curious about is how this is determinitically calculated. To me it seems you have 2 options to calculate deviations:
- Non-linear function: when probes are setup in space the deviation is calculated using a non-linear function (eg a hash function) to make sure we cannot "calculate backwards" where the real position of the target is. It will seem like a random deviation and when scanning multiple times you will not get different results. Problem with this is when you change the probe setup only slightly you will get the effect of multiple random deviations so you can still average them out (see my post above). Solution could be to disallow scanning multiple times with a probe within a certain time (a recharge of the probe if you will). This won't effect the intended probing since you need time to place the probes on the new locations anyway (which takes time). But it will negate the effect of being able to average out the location of the target.
- Linear function: depending on the setup of the probes the deviation is calculated using a (complex) linear function. The idea is that the deviation looks sort of random but when moving a single probe only slightly the deviation also slightly changes. This thus doesn't give you a way to determine the position of the target by averaging out deviations. The trick here (for us) is to figure out how the linear functions works and where it depends on (in which we may or may not succeed and which may or may not be beneficial for an explorer). What I like about this is that it might give an experienced explorer (experienced as in the player not so much the character) an edge cause he might get a "feeling" about how deviation works so he can use shorter range probes more quickly because he can better estimate the real location.
Of course we will have to wait for this to be implemented but i'm just anticipating here  .
[ ooh please ... let Sisi be back this weekend ]
Regards,
M.M.
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Cailais
Amarr
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 12:40:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
how about a "macro" that launches 4 probes in a tetrahedron of a desired distance from the ship?
That kinda defeats the point. Well practised players will be able to achieve the same effect quite quickly, whereas a novice will have to spend a little more time getting this effect.
C.
Originally by: Capa
So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Echon
The Vanguard Sentinels
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:41:00 -
[471]
Probe Placement is a pain in the butt.. it's like setting up POS modules 
how about getting rid of those damn arrows and make the bubbles dragable via right mouse click or a hotkey?
atm it's frustrating to only to be able to drag them in that xyz grid.. they should be able to move in all directions!
that would ofc also require a better solarsystem map camera than the one currently in place.. it should also be able to move in any direction.. the current system isn't very intuitive or userfriendly..
_________________________________________
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
- William Blake |
Xelios
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:48:00 -
[472]
Like others said the movement system in Homeworld is perfect for this, why can't we just use that? |
Sandra Tourraine
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:03:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Echon
Probe Placement is a pain in the butt.. it's like setting up POS modules
how about getting rid of those damn arrows and make the bubbles dragable via right mouse click or a hotkey?
atm it's frustrating to only to be able to drag them in that xyz grid.. they should be able to move in all directions!
that would ofc also require a better solarsystem map camera than the one currently in place.. it should also be able to move in any direction.. the current system isn't very intuitive or userfriendly..
If you drag the box between the arrows you can freely move it between the solar system plane.
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Arda Xi
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 14:18:00 -
[474]
Edited by: Arda Xi on 14/02/2009 14:18:15
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 14:00:29
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
This is a good proposal. There will however still be another problem: if scanning only takes a few secs (and assming with deviation the result is different each time) then you can scan several times and you can see the average/mean position of the deviated locations. That way you can still place a lot shorter range probes at the right positions and find it really quickly.
Any deviations will be determinstically calculated (ie, no random component) to avoid exactly this issue.
[ Sisi is down so ... ]
I'm really curious how you're are going to implement this deviation stuff.
To me it seems that with the new system you want to replace uncertainty with innaccuracy. You want to remove the chance based element and make the skills still have an effect on the time to find stuff. Right?
The only way to do that is by giving inaccurate results, or in other words: by deviation. So characters with better skills get more accurate results and therefore will find targets sooner.
You say that deviation (with multple probes) will be deterministically calculated. In other words: by scanning multiple times (with the exact same setup) you will always get the same inaccurate result.
What i'm (obviously) curious about is how this is determinitically calculated. To me it seems you have 2 options to calculate deviations:
- Irreversable function: when probes are setup in space the deviation is calculated using a irreversable function (eg a hash function) to make sure we cannot "calculate backwards" where the real position of the target is. It will seem like a random deviation and when scanning multiple times you will not get different results. Problem with this is when you change the probe setup only slightly you will get the effect of multiple random deviations so you can still average them out (see my post above). Solution could be to disallow scanning multiple times with a probe within a certain time (a recharge of the probe if you will). This won't effect the intended probing since you have to place the probes on the new locations anyway (which takes time). But it will negate the effect of being able to average out the location of the target.
- Reversable function: depending on the setup of the probes the deviation is calculated using a (complex) reversable function. The idea is that the deviation looks sort of random but when moving a single probe only slightly the deviation also slightly changes. This thus doesn't give you a way to determine the position of the target by averaging out deviations. The trick here (for us) is to figure out how the function works and where it depends on (in which we may or may not succeed and which may or may not be beneficial for an explorer). What I like about this is that it might give an experienced explorer (experienced as in the player not so much the character) an edge cause he might get a "feeling" about how deviation works so he can use shorter range probes more quickly because he can better estimate the real location.
Of course we will have to wait for this to be implemented but i'm just anticipating here .
[ ooh please ... let Sisi be back this weekend ]
Regards,
M.M.
Sisi is back up actually, at least, it was last time I checked.
Which was a couple of minutes ago.
|
mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:19:00 -
[475]
New button on the interface for the probes.. "UI_CMD_reconnectactive_probes"
Whats this then? a "go" button to have the probes warp when your finished fine tuning their movements? Not sure if its lag or just a bug, but the probes arnt moving after 5 seconds like previously.. Also they dont appear to be returning into your cargo any more.
-----------
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Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:39:00 -
[476]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 14:40:53
Originally by: Arda Xi
Sisi is back up actually, at least, it was last time I checked.
Which was a couple of minutes ago.
Yes thanks.
So far no changes to deviations it seems. Still just two scans needed for finding just about anything (by anyone).
There are GUI changes/fixes though...
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Rosur
Gallente
Infestation.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 14:41:00 -
[477]
Just checking are the scan times atm (5secs) just for testing and they going to go back to the speeds how it was before?(600secs)
Please resize your sig to less than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 14:49:00 -
[478]
Found a wormhole, but still looks like its not been attached to the Sleeper space yet.
Wormhole The wormhole info now contains a bit more detail.. Tells you how long before its likely to collapse.. and that there hasnt been enough traffic to destabilise it yet..
Im also getting session change when trying to enter the wormhole.. but its not taking me anywhere.. So I'm guessing this is one of the wormhole types that will eventually take you to some sleeper system..
-----------
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Ky'rena
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Posted - 2009.02.14 15:06:00 -
[479]
Edited by: Ky''rena on 14/02/2009 15:11:17
the placing of the probes now is better and i like. But have several issues.
1. I cannot recall the probes to cargohold.
2. I have two listings for "probe 1" in the scanner and have 2 probes out so i have 3 probes listed.
3. if you recall probes, the original position is shown with the box control and cannot change the position until i deactivate and activate the probe.
F.Y.I. was not apparent at first but if you use the right instead of the left click while changing camera view.. it does not rotate around a point but moves the camera in an X/Y movement.
And a question.. I am lost. I had 2 probes outs... got two hits 100%. Clicked on the result and i get a blue globe. Cannot warp to. I then put out 2 more and cover the globe with the probes from different angles and still have 100% but not able to warp to.
What am i missing?
Thanks
EDIT... i recalled all probes.. just out of boredom i did another scan and got one hit that i could actually warp to.. green dot. Not sure what to make of it. First attempt at scanning was done from the solar system view (hits but not able to warp) and second was done from ship view (got warpable hit)
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Ky'rena
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 15:14:00 -
[480]
Curious, I saw a posting here that said the launchers Power was set back to 1.. and yet i still cannot activate all the mods on my covert ops as i do on TQ. Anyone else?
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