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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
DeepBlue
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:26:00 -
[331]
 Originally by: DeTox MinRohim
Originally by: Griffinator
Originally by: Tharrn
Have wormholes been fixed server side or are they still all collapsed?
still all colapsed finannly managed to find one today bm'ed it click the jump through button and sorry nope can't jump through the thing ahs collapsed thank you for spending a hour scanning me down have a nice day
Bah! A small bit of info on what's happening by the wormhole team would be nice.
they are stuck in a collapsed wormhole and cant type! ;)
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Tillmen
LFC
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Posted - 2009.02.11 16:29:00 -
[332]
I lost my astrometric pinpointing lvl 5 on sisi. I logged into the game and got the message that "Notify Training of the skill Astrometric Pinpointing lvl 0 has been completed." I have lvl 5 on TQ. Did you guys reset this skill on sisi for some reason? Can I please get this skill back on sisi? Should I bug report the loss of the skill?
Thanks.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:20:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Tillmen
Edited by: Tillmen on 11/02/2009 16:44:15
I lost my astrometric pinpointing 5 and signal acquisition 5 on sisi. I logged into the game and got the message that "Notify Training of the skill Astrometric Pinpointing lvl 0 has been completed." Signal Acquisition is at lvl 4 on sisi. I have lvl 5 on TQ and have had them for sometime now. Did you guys reset these skills on sisi for some reason? Can I please get these skills back on sisi? Should I bug report the loss of the skills?
Thanks.
Read the stickies... your SP on SISI are from january 9th and due to ghost training benig disabled didnt continue to train.
Besides this has nothing to do in this thread.
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Originally by: CCP Prism X
I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:26:00 -
[334]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Yes, this applies to ships, and yes it will make finding ships harder. Personally I'm happy with this - the current system is IMO too fast, and apart from anything else made ship probing far less common, in my experience. With the old old system people would use safespots because good probing pilots were rare and it took a long time. When the old system came in and everyone realized that there's no such thing as a safespot, the chances of actually finding someone (outside missions and so on) became much lower. I'm interested to see how this new system affects things.
That said, if you do have a strong opinion on this issue, please explain it here clearly :)
The OLD system ( pre exploration where you had to drop 3 probes on top of each other ) simply did not work at all. As long as the person you were trying to find was more than 1 au above or below the celestial plane, the probes simply would not find them.
The current system as it existed when exploration was added worked quite well. You could finally actually probe out those hostiles invading your sovereign space and give them the boot. Since then, two things have changed that have made scanning for ships all but useless. The first is that everyone and their dog now fits a cloak. The second is that at some point, the ability to scan people in warp was broken/silently nerfed. For many months after exploration was introduced, if your scan finished on a ship in warp, it returned the point they were warping to, so you could start heading that way, and if they were slow and/or were warping a long distance, you had a fair chance of catching them. Now you get a useless result in the middle of nowhere, so unless the person you are hunting is afk, you are wasting your time scanning for them.
If you are going to make it take a bit longer and be a bit more complex to scan for people, that's fine... it will be great if it actually takes some skill to do, but the ability for your prey to totally nullify your scanning by simply warping back and forth between two safe spots all day has GOT to go. It would also be really nice if there were a way to scan down cloaked ships, even if it is harder/takes longer.
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Tillmen
LFC
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 17:44:00 -
[335]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Tillmen
Edited by: Tillmen on 11/02/2009 16:44:15
I lost my astrometric pinpointing 5 and signal acquisition 5 on sisi. I logged into the game and got the message that "Notify Training of the skill Astrometric Pinpointing lvl 0 has been completed." Signal Acquisition is at lvl 4 on sisi. I have lvl 5 on TQ and have had them for sometime now. Did you guys reset these skills on sisi for some reason? Can I please get these skills back on sisi? Should I bug report the loss of the skills?
Thanks.
Read the stickies... your SP on SISI are from january 9th and due to ghost training benig disabled didnt continue to train.
Besides this has nothing to do in this thread.
I am well aware of how sisi works as this is not the first time I have been on here to test new patches. I had both skills at lvl 5 for sometime now (first week of Jan 09, the last skill lvl 5 skill completed) and I had all of the scanning skills at lvl 4 by Aug of '08. So unless this mirror was taken at some point in mid-2008 there is a problem with my character on sisi.
Figuring that I lost skill points/skills (which I'm pretty sure that I did have on sisi 2 days ago) I believe that it is very relevant to this thread.
Thanks for your helpful response.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:00:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Tillmen
Figuring that I lost skill points/skills (which I'm pretty sure that I did have on sisi 2 days ago) I believe that it is very relevant to this thread.
No it doesn't belong here, it's caused by the skillqueue. A bug in the skillqueue makes skills train negatively. Also you didnt include that piece of vital information that you had the skills 2 days ago.
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Originally by: CCP Prism X
I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
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Zeraina
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:33:00 -
[337]
Edited by: Zeraina on 11/02/2009 18:33:52
Well i'm having no luck with this either. Worked my way down from 32 au probes to 0.25au have 100% hits on 4 probes can't warp to anything.
Moving the probes is hard work, i've found if u click them to make inactive the boxes fly off have way across the system then u gotta activate them again and manually move em bk to original position sometimes taking several attempts to get right.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:40:00 -
[338]
Edited by: Marlenus on 11/02/2009 18:46:27
Today I returned to the unfindable Bantam to try again.
First, just to prove I'm not completely incapable with the combat probes, I scanned down a lost indy that somebody had left adrift. That went smoothly, got a warpable hit with the fourth probe as expected.
Now back to the much-lower-sig-radius Bantam that's sitting about thee thousand kilometers away from my bookmark.
I carefully launch each combat probe, set its range to the .5AU minimum, and move it carefully away from my safe until the signal strength hit on the Bantam declines below 100%, then move it back until I have 100% again. (The goal here is to give the triangulation engine some separation to work with, without losing useful signal.)
By the third probe, I have a non-warpable yellow/green dot and a combined signal strength of 60-ish percent.
4th probe: 81.86%, not warpable.
5th probe: 86.12%, not warpable. Per Hoshi's observation, you don't get a lot of extra value from more probes; diminishing returns kicking in.
6th probe: 92.96%, not warpable.
7th probe: 92.96, not warpable, no improvement.
8th probe: 94.29%, still not warpable.
OK, Hoshi's math says it's best (for signal strength) to be as close as possible, even if I'm getting 100% hits out near the edge of the .5 range of these probes. How that interacts with the triangulation code is still a mystery, but let's start inching these probes back in toward the Bantam, one by one, improving the 3D shape of the envelopment, and see if we can improve that final hit percentage.
First tweak: %95.01
Second tweak: %95.13 CONFIRMED: Moving a single probe (that already has a 100% signal strength hit) closer to the target does improve the strength of the combined hit. Hoshi is right. Armed with this information, we proceed:
96.69%
97.75%
98.62% getting there
100% BINGO! Warpable hit.
OK, I've proved the ship scanning system is not broken. But, for frigate sized targets, it's incredibly fiddly. PvP probers are right to be worried.
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Ironfleet.com |
StickyFingerz
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:40:00 -
[339]
Whilst i love the new system for its gui and not having to warp around to place probes...
it feels like scaning for plex's and other PvE stuff, just became ******edly easy, in fact i am wondering wtf use my skills are on my max scanning char, as frankly i am finding stuff just as fast with my none maxed scanning char.
:/
not only that, finding players is now compleatly useless, what with safe behaviour being the way it is, finding players has basically become impossible.
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Zeraina
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:44:00 -
[340]
Originally by: StickyFingerz
Whilst i love the new system for its gui and not having to warp around to place probes...
it feels like scaning for plex's and other PvE stuff, just became ******edly easy, in fact i am wondering wtf use my skills are on my max scanning char, as frankly i am finding stuff just as fast with my none maxed scanning char.
If its so easy to scan stuff out now using this new setup why dont u share with the rest of the community on how to do it? Coz u seem to be the only one who's finding everything nobody else seems to be.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:54:00 -
[341]
Lots of folks have mentioned some of the interface bugs and problems with probe positioning. One bug is that sometimes when you select a probe, the movement control and "influence bubble" lights up a place (usually where your ship is) that is not the probe location. This is very confusing and makes it hard to make precise probe adjustments.
It *seems* to me (no bug report yet because I haven't been able to nail down the reproduction steps) that the probes become disconnected from their controls-and-bubble when you try to scan before they have decided to warp. I have *much* better luck waiting patiently until all probe motion has ceased; hitting the "anal" button too soon seems to spawn this bug.
Helpful tip for dealing with screen clutter when you've got lots of probes out and can't see anything for the white boxes: the "active" checkbox in the "Probes In Space" window is your friend. If you want to reposition one probe, deactivate all the others, move the probe (only one white arrow box on your screen), then reactive them. Yeah, it's carpal tunnel mouse click city, but it's what we've got.
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Ironfleet.com |
Tillmen
LFC
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:09:00 -
[342]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Tillmen
Figuring that I lost skill points/skills (which I'm pretty sure that I did have on sisi 2 days ago) I believe that it is very relevant to this thread.
No it doesn't belong here, it's caused by the skillqueue. A bug in the skillqueue makes skills train negatively. Also you didnt include that piece of vital information that you had the skills 2 days ago.
Right..I decided to add skills I already had to lvl 5 to the queue to train them to what..lvl 6? That's must be it. FYI, I didn't use the skill queue to train anything. Figuring you have no idea what the devs have done in the past 2 days to sisi, which may have caused this, I will politely ask you to shut your wormhole. I don't need anymore conjecture from someone that is clueless.
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Tillmen
LFC
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:57:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Marlenus
Lots of folks have mentioned some of the interface bugs and problems with probe positioning. One bug is that sometimes when you select a probe, the movement control and "influence bubble" lights up a place (usually where your ship is) that is not the probe location. This is very confusing and makes it hard to make precise probe adjustments.
It *seems* to me (no bug report yet because I haven't been able to nail down the reproduction steps) that the probes become disconnected from their controls-and-bubble when you try to scan before they have decided to warp. I have *much* better luck waiting patiently until all probe motion has ceased; hitting the "anal" button too soon seems to spawn this bug.
Helpful tip for dealing with screen clutter when you've got lots of probes out and can't see anything for the white boxes: the "active" checkbox in the "Probes In Space" window is your friend. If you want to reposition one probe, deactivate all the others, move the probe (only one white arrow box on your screen), then reactive them. Yeah, it's carpal tunnel mouse click city, but it's what we've got.
I've been having the bubbles move whenever check/uncheck teh active button. I already bugged it. It would be better if you could position the probes where you wanted them to be, then hit active and have them all warp at once. Finetune positioning seems to be alot harder then it should be.
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Des Jardin
Ad Astra Vexillum
Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:40:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Marlenus
Edited by: Marlenus on 11/02/2009 18:46:27
Today I returned to the unfindable Bantam to try again.
Important test data
Marlenus -- Thank you for testing this aspect of the new probing system and reporting on it. I (and many other explorers) appreciate your effort.
Des Jardin
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General Meridus
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:40:00 -
[345]
Quote:
I've been having the bubbles move whenever check/uncheck teh active button. I already bugged it.
This.
Checking and unchecking the active button resets the sphere graphic back to its original position. The probe icon remains where you put it. Move the graphic back over the icon, and the probe rewarps. So where's the probe? On the icon? On the graphic sphere? Should we just guess? Is this intended? Uncheck and then check the "active" box once more, and everything resets again. *Maybe I'll go spend a couple of days playing with the ship fitting tool, I hear that's fun. Probing is a mess.
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Sfynx
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:55:00 -
[346]
Edited by: Sfynx on 11/02/2009 20:55:48
Originally by: Marlenus
Edited by: Marlenus on 11/02/2009 18:46:27
OK, Hoshi's math says it's best (for signal strength) to be as close as possible, even if I'm getting 100% hits out near the edge of the .5 range of these probes. How that interacts with the triangulation code is still a mystery, but let's start inching these probes back in toward the Bantam, one by one, improving the 3D shape of the envelopment, and see if we can improve that final hit percentage.
First tweak: %95.01
Second tweak: %95.13 CONFIRMED: Moving a single probe (that already has a 100% signal strength hit) closer to the target does improve the strength of the combined hit. Hoshi is right. Armed with this information, we proceed:
96.69%
97.75%
98.62% getting there
100% BINGO! Warpable hit.
OK, I've proved the ship scanning system is not broken. But, for frigate sized targets, it's incredibly fiddly. PvP probers are right to be worried.
Maybe that has to do with the variation of the distances of the probes to the target? In a guide on this forums:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=994774
it is mentioned to put probes at different distances from the to-be-scanned target, maybe that variation positively influences the triangulation result?
Still I think the PvP scanning is too slow now, compared to the effort it takes to evade being scanned down. Now you probably are able to go afk, grab a coffee, come back and still see the hostiles trying to find you :P
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Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:01:00 -
[347]
I just did a decent amount of testing scanning ships. I believe that things need to be adjusted with ships. Currently, you need 4 1AU probes to get 100% on a Megathron. I personally believe you should be able to get a 100% accuracy with much larger probes on a BS size ships that is sitting in a normal safe spot (ie. not in a deadspace). It is not currently possible to scan out small ships like a CovOps, you can put 8 .5AU probes on it, and you simply can't get remotely close to 100% accuracy. I know it has been mentioned about various rare cosmic signatures needing to be tweaked due to the probability model of the previous scanning system, I just want to make sure that the same tweaking is done for ships.
________________________
No Trademark -- Mes Ren, Mes Builder --
-- CEO --
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Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Empire Mining and Trade
eXponential maXimum
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:12:00 -
[348]
Is there a "stop scan" button in the new scanner, and if not can you add one? Its annoying to click the wrong thing then wait 2 minutes for the scan to stop.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:32:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Marlenus on 11/02/2009 21:35:12
Originally by: Mes Ren
It is not currently possible to scan out small ships like a CovOps, you can put 8 .5AU probes on it, and you simply can't get remotely close to 100% accuracy.
Buzzard covops has 50 sig radius, the Bantam I chased so hard up-thread has 44. So it is technically possible; but it's very very very difficult. Originally by: Mes Ren
I know it has been mentioned about various rare cosmic signatures needing to be tweaked due to the probability model of the previous scanning system, I just want to make sure that the same tweaking is done for ships.
Agreed. However, it would break the combat system to tweak the sig radius of ships, so I assume the adjustment will have to take place in the probe strengths and/or the mechanics of the probing system.
There is also going to be substantial screaming from the mission probing community if deadspace probing turns out to be impossible when this all goes live.
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Ironfleet.com |
Aleyra Mel
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:38:00 -
[350]
If you want mu humble opinion CCP, dump the whole new scanning system and keep the one that is on TQ atm. No reason to change it. New system not only renders worthless way too many things like cov-ops, skills, items but also is hard to use and its not so realistic, (ffs you move the probes like you play a pacman, its space ffs....).
Keep the old scanning system CCP, dont change it. Wormholes ofc will stay, but with the old system.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:45:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Des Jardin
Marlenus -- Thank you for testing this aspect of the new probing system and reporting on it. I (and many other explorers) appreciate your effort.
Des Jardin
You're welcome! Of course I'm doing it for selfish reasons, but I'm hoping the detailed reports will make it easier for the development team to identify and make needed changes.
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Ironfleet.com |
Winters Chill
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:45:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Aleyra Mel
If you want mu humble opinion CCP, dump the whole new scanning system and keep the one that is on TQ atm. No reason to change it. New system not only renders worthless way too many things like cov-ops, skills, items but also is hard to use and its not so realistic, (ffs you move the probes like you play a pacman, its space ffs....).
Keep the old scanning system CCP, dont change it. Wormholes ofc will stay, but with the old system.
This
Or at least increase scan times to make all those implants, rigs, skills and ship bonuses useful.
Also from what ive heard the lack of multispecs is making scanning a chore in completely new ways.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:58:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Winters Chill
Also from what ive heard the lack of multispecs is making scanning a chore in completely new ways.
I actually like this change. Multispecs made exploring a bit like "pop into local, check local for wartargets, seeing none, move on". A little too easy and not very explorational.
The new probes tell you what kind of target you have, once you get a partial hit. You've got to locate the site but you don't have to pinpoint it. So you're not wasting heavy search energy on the "wrong" sites, but you do have to put some effort into evaluating each cosmic anomaly. Frankly it's an improvement from an immersion-and-fun sense, even if it does -- and it does! -- make the job of exploration a little slower and harder.
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Ironfleet.com |
Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:01:00 -
[354]
Edited by: Mes Ren on 11/02/2009 22:04:24
Originally by: Marlenus
Edited by: Marlenus on 11/02/2009 21:35:12
Originally by: Mes Ren
It is not currently possible to scan out small ships like a CovOps, you can put 8 .5AU probes on it, and you simply can't get remotely close to 100% accuracy.
Buzzard covops has 50 sig radius, the Bantam I chased so hard up-thread has 44. So it is technically possible; but it's very very very difficult. Originally by: Mes Ren
I know it has been mentioned about various rare cosmic signatures needing to be tweaked due to the probability model of the previous scanning system, I just want to make sure that the same tweaking is done for ships.
Agreed. However, it would break the combat system to tweak the sig radius of ships, so I assume the adjustment will have to take place in the probe strengths and/or the mechanics of the probing system.
There is also going to be substantial screaming from the mission probing community if deadspace probing turns out to be impossible when this all goes live.
I read your thread up above, but I have 8 probes out, and have tweaked them like a little cube very very close to the target, and I'm barely breaking 40%. One thing I would like to see, I'd like to see some kind of dot representing the probe location when you are moving those things around. Right now it is INCREDIBLY difficult to determine where the probe (center of your sphere with big clunky cube with arrows) will end up actually resting.
________________________
No Trademark -- Mes Ren, Mes Builder --
-- CEO --
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Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:06:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Johnster
Edited by: Johnster on 11/02/2009 08:43:24
Wormhole stability/administration array.
We really need a new anchorable structure to make the wormholes stable.
Isn't the whole point of worm holes that they are unstable.
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In essence, any combat related activity involving damage has been 'speed nerfed' to just take 6 times longer with a predetermined outcome coined balance by CCP. |
Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:15:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Mes Ren
but I have 8 probes out, and have tweaked them like a little cube very very close to the target, and I'm barely breaking 40%.
I feel your pain, and at the end of the day yesterday, I would have agreed with you about the impossibility.
I don't know whether we have a skills difference (mine are all at four) or whether there's something you could be doing very slightly differently to get better results. Positioning, not just distance but also envelopment, does seem to matter, and it's incredibly difficult to get the probe placement you need to find frigates. It took me nearly a full hour this morning to get to %100.
Originally by: Mes Ren
One thing I would like to see, I'd like to see some kind of dot representing the probe location when you are moving those things around. Right now it is INCREDIBLY difficult to determine where the probe (center of your sphere with big clunky cube with arrows) will end up actually resting.
That's an AWESOME idea. However, I think they'd have to make the cubes more translucent, in order to see such a dot at all.
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Ironfleet.com |
Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:17:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Marlenus
Buzzard covops has 50 sig radius, the Bantam I chased so hard up-thread has 44.
Old system used Sig Radius/Sensor Strength. I have not checked yet but I am fairly certain the new system use the same. So a buzzard has less than 1/3rd of the signal size of a bantam.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:18:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
Is there a "stop scan" button in the new scanner, and if not can you add one? Its annoying to click the wrong thing then wait 2 minutes for the scan to stop.
Scan time is now base 10 sec, down to 2.5 or less with skills etc. No real need for such a button anymore.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Xessej
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:19:00 -
[359]
Is there any chance the bug keeping those without astrometrics 5 from scanning be fixed soon? People who never PvP or moon scan don't have astro 5 since it doesn't do anything for them.
Will wormholes be opened so we can start figuring out what is needed for wormhole exploration. Reports that 6 sleeper ships took down a carrier's tank despite being remote repped by two other carriers is disturbing those who wanted to do WH exploration in small gangs.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.11 22:21:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Marlenus
Buzzard covops has 50 sig radius, the Bantam I chased so hard up-thread has 44.
Old system used Sig Radius/Sensor Strength. I have not checked yet but I am fairly certain the new system use the same. So a buzzard has less than 1/3rd of the signal size of a bantam.
Oops! My mistake. I even checked your old probing guide before posting this, but I must have misunderstood it.  That means the other poster is not wrong, it may very well be impossible to probe a covops.
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