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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
159
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:32:00 -
[211] - Quote
RedClaws wrote:CCP,
Please realize that players with higher SP currently don't like flying destroyers and to a lesser degree frigates because of the clonecosts , for me it costs about 50-60 mil to replace my medical clone. The odds of getting podkilled in a light interdictor is quite high.
Having high skillpoints doesn't mean that the player also has a lot of isk or some way to make isk more efficiently than a lower skilled character. Sure, I don't deny that it helps but having 10 mil SP or 100mil SP doesn't really matter for the income of level 4 agent missions.
Thanks, Red
Except for those of us doing faction warfare, where Destroyers are a big deal, and getting your pods out in lowsec is a non-issue. The universe does not live in 0.0. Caldari focused fleet PvP
Join us for 100% Caldari fleets in Faction Warfare and small fleet PvP
www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/recruitment |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
227
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:37:00 -
[212] - Quote
The yellow and black of the Ore Frigate makes it look like a piece of construction equipment.
Quite appropriate for its role, IMO. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
65
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:40:00 -
[213] - Quote
Nice job, the industrialists deserved some fresh content. Now if only you can add a dedicated gas mining ship. *wink*wink*nudge*nudge* |
Peta Michalek
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:40:00 -
[214] - Quote
darmwand wrote:Peta Michalek wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:A clarification about the time line.
This blog is an update on what we are doing this summer (therefore the title 'Ship balancing summer update') to be released this winter and later. Seriously? So let me get this straight. T1 frigates.destroyers to be released this winter; T1 BCs/BS one update after that(summer 2013) T2 frigs/destroyers after that(winter 2013) T2 BCs/BS after that (summer 2014) T3 and/or faction ships at the end(winter 2014) Two and half years long balance plan? Sounds reasonable to me. You don't want them to rush into things, better make sure that the ships that have been rebalanced actually work before doing the next bigger class.
Well I am new here so I guess I'm not used to EVE work cycles, but you know - entire games were made in less time.
Plus there's the "why would I play/fly this now if it's going to be buffed/nerfed/changed anyway" factor. |
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys Dark Legion Alliance
20
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:40:00 -
[215] - Quote
well, that blog makes one lust for more! :D
are there some ideas how to differentiate between t1 and t2 barges? in the blog they are grouped. would be interesting, what is planned there.
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Selissa Shadoe
96
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:42:00 -
[216] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:PLEASE CCP :
answer me this - what do you mean by -
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.
please explain WHAT protection you mean when you talk of this ? remote rep ? a low ehp ship? ever heard of alpha ? pretty please dear developer that is reading this explain what this protection could be in your eyes ? we need to understand what u think if you want us to give you feedback
I'm concerned about that too. If the Hulk is made any weaker and if the cargo hold is transformed to an 'ore hold' so that you're not able to increase the size with a cargo expander, then there's some real issues there. You'll be left making the 'best mining barge' (currently) in to something amazingly crappy just to make the other ship classes feel better. :/ |
Swearte Widfarend
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
81
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:47:00 -
[217] - Quote
Quote: Mining output: first and most visible balancing factor, plan is to increase all barge mining output to be within an acceptable margin of the Hulk, not miles behind as it is currently. Autonomy: mining barges should have proper cargo holds so they not always have to rely on jet cans (without turning them into industrials however). That means giving them large, specialized ore bays where all the ore will automatically go into when mining. Resilience: another point is to give some of them proper EHP not to be one-shot by anything that even remotely sneezes on them.
As a result we thus get:
New ORE frig: we want this ship to replace current mining frigates as low barrier of entry vessel, but also fulfill high-end gameplay expectations by providing a very mobile platform for mining in hostile space. Lowest mining output, decent ore bay, little to no resilience. Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP. Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge. Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.
I want to suggest a few things based on this, remembering that the Tech 2 variants have specific roles already (Skiff = Mercoxit, Mackinaw = Ice, Hulk = Ore).
First of all, the Cargo Hold needs to be at least 300m3 on all of these barges, to account for crystals. Please don't forget that in your modifications.
I mentioned before it might make sense to add a second Tech 2 Retriever, for Gas Cloud Harvesting. Based on your suggested changes it's the best fit for the ship, since Gas has large m3 and is losec/nullsec/WH only. Also, Gas Cloud Harvesters are listed as mining lasers, so a bonused ship makes sense here.
Having the Procurer/Skiff as the "toughest" barges make sense, but you may also need to address the mining laser range on the Skiff. Mercoxit clouds (currently) should never reach a Skiff due to the range of the Deep Core Mining Laser II. Either the cloud needs to be larger, or the range reduced on those lasers. It makes sense that this should be the tankiest with the T2 variant use in mind, so no real issue here other than the joke of mercoxit cloud damage.
Retriever/Mackinaw as the self-reliance ship - OK, yeah. Largest Ore bay because of ice volumes - Mack pilots will love you, and make the Retriever a viable losec mining barge with the cost/volume/loss issue fairly balanced I think.
Covetor/Hulk - Best mining output - OK, so the wonder of the largest ship is the fastest output/highest volume per cycle. Here's where all the fun begins though - because of rigs and modules.
It's pretty common to fit Hulks (and Covetors) with Cargo Expansion Rigs and even sometimes the Expander II mods. I hope you realize this and will also either transfer the bonuses for these mods/rigs to the Ore Hold, or create a separate Mod and Rig to expand the Ore Hold (with similar penalties to the cargo rigs/mods). If you do it right with SM/M/LG Rigs, it also provides bonuses to the ORE Mining Frigate, the Orca and Rorqual, which wouldn't be a bad thing.
However, there are a large number of Barges out there fit with Cargo Expander Rigs - which (if the rig doesn't affect the Ore Bay after the change) is a pretty big issue (these rigs are pretty expensive, after all). I'm going to humbly suggest that if the Cargo Rigs don't affect the Ore Bay after this change, they be removed (not destroyed) and placed in the cargo hold of the ship they were on (for barges only). Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth. |
Rrama Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
60
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:47:00 -
[218] - Quote
Peta Michalek wrote: Well I am new here so I guess I'm not used to EVE work cycles, but you know - entire games were made in less time.
Plus there's the "why would I play/fly this now if it's going to be buffed/nerfed/changed anyway" factor.
TImeing in eve is different than other games, especially you have to take into accounts this isnt the only thing going on this is a subset.... These are changes being made in parallel to the other fixes and changes, that are ongoing for Inferno, as well as the ongoing development work that has to go into the winter expansion... theres a lot of stuff going on besides balancing. |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
167
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:49:00 -
[219] - Quote
Peta Michalek wrote:CCP Phantom wrote:A clarification about the time line.
This blog is an update on what we are doing this summer (therefore the title 'Ship balancing summer update') to be released this winter and later. Seriously? So let me get this straight. T1 frigates.destroyers to be released this winter; T1 BCs/BS one update after that(summer 2013) T2 frigs/destroyers after that(winter 2013) T2 BCs/BS after that (summer 2014) T3 and/or faction ships at the end(winter 2014) Two and half years long balance plan? You're failing to factor in going back and revisiting stuff that gets broken during the process. |
DazedOne
The Crabbit S O L A R I S
94
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:49:00 -
[220] - Quote
Grog Drinker wrote:Great stuff. Found myself actually thinking about mining . Maybe make a t2 version of the mining frig with a cov ops cloak...
So what your saying you'll be invisible with mining lasers shooting out from you......
You deserve an epic FACEPALM
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darmwand
Repo.
51
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:52:00 -
[221] - Quote
DazedOne wrote:Grog Drinker wrote:Great stuff. Found myself actually thinking about mining . Maybe make a t2 version of the mining frig with a cov ops cloak... So what your saying you'll be invisible with mining lasers shooting out from you...... You deserve an epic FACEPALM
I think he meant to have the cloak for travelling. Something like a Cheetah with mining bonuses. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
166
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:52:00 -
[222] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:"Protection" cannot protect you from an alpha gank.
Being aware and warping out if others enter the belt can.
Flying the "BS Hitpoints" variant can.
There seems to be an assumption that afk-high-sec mining is a basic EVE human right. It isn't.
If you wish to be protected, fly the ships that can withstand ganks (like the new proposed skiff or a Mining Battleship).
If you have protection, are self-aware enough to not sit there when soemthing unknown warps into the belt, or are in nullsec (where your potection can alpha the ganker first or otherwsie provide cover for mining ops), then you can fly the high-yield no-tank variants.
What is your desired end result here? A ship that can tank any gankers, haul it's own ore, and be in effect untouchable in a high-sec environemnt while still pulling in the highest yield?
If so, no. |
Sister Rhode
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
83
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:53:00 -
[223] - Quote
It's exciting to play Eve now that they are actually focusing on the spaceship part of the game again! |
DazedOne
The Crabbit S O L A R I S
94
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:53:00 -
[224] - Quote
Rrama Ratamnim wrote:Zorok wrote:Hi, I'm happy to hear that you are willing to give *some* of the mining barges a bit of a buff against attackers. The ore hold bonus to the retriever/mackinaw is nice but I don't think that 1 jettison can worth of ore + a bit tougher defense is going to get people to switch to using these ships. The best setup for a lone miner is to use a hulk to mine and then use an Orca to pick up the jet cans. I believe that if you want to make the ore hold really worth while on the mackinaw/retriever, you should look at the minimum of 4 jet cans in space if you're expecting pilots to give up using a Hulk/Orca combo.
In Eve, time is money and vice versa- unless you can make the mackinaw/retriever mine more efficiently w/o Orca or other hauler support (basically make it mine more or equivalent to a Hulk mining and then the time it would take to fly back to station and grab an orca to haul jet cans etc), the Mackinaw/Retriever will be used by only a small percentage of players.
To the point: CCP, make the Mackinaw/Retriever worth my time as a lone miner and I will use this over the Hulk. a bit of an ehp buff? are you serious? BATTLE SHIP TANK = 100k EHP You seriously dont seem to be calculating in the whole loss of 1 hulk = -300m ISK thats a lot of mining every time you loose one, which during certain times mainly in highsec happens quite often.
Thats when you adapt and fly one of the tankier hulls they are coming out with. Its your personal choice to go with more tank and less yield OR less tank and more yield. Make a choice man it isn't difficult. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
699
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
So battlecruisers are still remaining as OP as today?
So EHP idiocy is kept the same?
So tech3 vs Command Ships nonses is left intact?
Who the hell decided it's a good idea to commit that much manpower into damn frigates? Come on, man! By next summer, the date you're going to have remote chances of actually addressing bigger stuff (I'm even optimistic here), It will have been a damn year of you trying to fix these pesky frigates! How long will it take to address all the other issues then?
Let me remind you of some:
- cyno mechanics - rigs - armour vs. shield in general (with Shield extenders not affecting mobility, while apparently they should) - abovementioned stuff
14 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7940
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:54:00 -
[226] - Quote
Selissa Shadoe wrote:I'm concerned about that too. If the Hulk is made any weaker and if the cargo hold is transformed to an 'ore hold' so that you're not able to increase the size with a cargo expander, then there's some real issues there. You'll be left making the 'best mining barge' (currently) in to something amazingly crappy just to make the other ship classes feel better. :/ It's being turned into a group miner GÇö local cargo hold is no longer particularly relevant, and you can concentrate on beefing up that tank instead.
What they're doing is making each barge being GÇ£the bestGÇ¥, only at different things.
Swearte Widfarend wrote:It's pretty common to fit Hulks (and Covetors) with Cargo Expansion Rigs and even sometimes the Expander II mods. I hope you realize this and will also either transfer the bonuses for these mods/rigs to the Ore Hold, or create a separate Mod and Rig to expand the Ore Hold (with similar penalties to the cargo rigs/mods). Same goes here: doing that, and trying to expand the cargo hold of the new Hulk to begin with, would be to go completely counter to its new purpose and intended use. You don't need a big ore hold GÇö the Orca in your gang has that covered.
Most likely, when these changes go through, they're simply going to force-strip all barges and exhumers since none of the fittings will make sense any more (and some of them might even no longer be able to fit the things they currently carry). They've done that before when they've completely revamped ship bonuses and layouts, so it will probably be the preferred solution here as well. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Jeremy Hayden
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:56:00 -
[227] - Quote
It seems a bit odd to me that some mining barges would get a special ore bay and others won't. In my opinion, it would make more sense to standardize and give every ORE ship a dedicated ORE hold.
ORE frigate - Good mining frigate for new players. Small ORE hold, small cargohold on par with current "mining" frigates. Newer players could also experiment solo mining in low sec.
Procurer - Preferred for low sec mining with small fleet support. Medium ORE bay, small cargohold. +2 warp strength. High EHP. Mining yield is still less than retriever and higher ships.
Skiff - Preferred for low sec mining with small fleet support. Medium ORE bay. small-medium cargohold depending on fittings. +3 warp strength. Highest EHP of all barges\exhumers. Mining yield is still less than retriever and higher ships.
Retriever - Large ORE bay (jetcan size), small-medium cargo hold depending on fittings. Increased EHP, but not even near the procurer/skiff. It's a flexible ship, its yield is decent, but still not as good as the more dedicated t2 ships like the mack, hulk, or covetor. It can hold the most ore, though.
Mackinaw - Medium ORE bay. small - medium cargohold depending on yield or defense fittings tradeoff. Increased EHP from current, but still average EHP. Would still receive ice bonus to keep it as the best yield ship for ice mining.
Covetor - Medium ORE bay, small cargohold. Little EHP and limited fittings, still can't really fit a tank at all, Think of it as a stripped down hulk distilled to its basic purpose: mining yield.
Hulk - Medium ORE bay, and small-medium cargohold depending on yield\defense fittings tradeoff. Average EHP. Still the preferred max-yield ore mining vessel.
And while we're at it:
Orca
- X-large ORE bay (increased from current). 80,000m3
- Same size cargohold as current. - Same size corp hanger as current. - Same size ship maint hanger as current.
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Johan March
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments Sleeper Social Club
1
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:59:00 -
[228] - Quote
I really like the frigate rebalancing and will really enjoy flying some of these new ships. A few recommendations: Atron, etc. - some sort of MWD bonus to make it a viable T1 tackler. Doesn't have to be as good as an inty, but something. That would be a fun boat to fly.
The destroyer changes sound good too, but the old Navy man in me says "destroyer not [strike]shore[/strike] planet bombardment ship". Now special forces team insertion. That's what destroyers do.
I'm no miner, but the changes to those ships seem reasonable too. The new mining frigate looks cool. |
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
1425
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Posted - 2012.06.14 15:59:00 -
[229] - Quote
Overall these changes, IMO reflect the renewed dedication CCP has taken with regards to FiS and i am liking the rebalancing hat they are doing. +1
I would be even more pleased if they would respec the mining skills and refund the mining /industry skillpoints that players have accumulated ;) Hmmm |
Freelancer117
Obsidian Tigers
26
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:00:00 -
[230] - Quote
Mining Frigate, wait...... EvE = Homeworld 3 Eve Radio |
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Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
21
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:00:00 -
[231] - Quote
Swearte Widfarend wrote:I know that ship skills provide bonuses based on the level of the skill, but I really think you should re-evaluate "all ships unlocked at level 1." Granted, with skills at such a low multiplier, the difference between 1 and 3 is only a couple hours, but I think you should consider unlocking hulls with skill level, with a cap that all hulls are unlocked by LV 4 for a Tech 1 ship. Logically, the hulls are different, and behave differently, so having a higher skill would also imply that the hull has a higher benefit in some way (which may even be true after the changes).
No! You're basically going back into tiers, where you unlock "better" ships.
The new thinking where all ships in a class have slightly different abilities and roles is much better. Rather than nearly-always flying the "best" ship, the trade-off allows for more variety in the game. With this world-view, unlocking all the ships at the same time makes more sense.
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Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
167
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:01:00 -
[232] - Quote
Peta Michalek wrote:
Well I am new here so I guess I'm not used to EVE work cycles, but you know - entire games were made in less time.
And died in less time too.
EVE defines, for better or worse, the "long game" in gaming.
Quote:Plus there's the "why would I play/fly this now if it's going to be buffed/nerfed/changed anyway" factor.
Because it's fun right now?
If you're not flying/playing now for fun now, you're doing it wrong.
Every MMO changes over time. EVE is no different. |
Grady Eltoren
Aviation Professionals for EVE
63
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:01:00 -
[233] - Quote
Archinquisitor wrote:Before making ADDITIONAL destroyers, consider upgrading one racial frigate each to destroyer, as we have so many frigates already, some without a proper role.
THIS - take one frig from each race and make it a destroyer. Too many frigates. That will cut down on your work load and make it easier for players. Unless of course this totally fubar's your balance plans already laid... : (
Anyways - SO MUCH LOVE in this devblog! Great comments so far. Hoping people post ideas in the right thread though OR dev's are following this one close taking notes.
ORE changes - +1000 so unexpected and pleasant. THANK GOD for the ORE frigate too. So cool! I LIKED the changes to the mining ships but....
WE still NEED A dedicated ICE miner (Mackinaw) this was not mentioned and not sure how this will work out? DEV's can you answer??
also
What about a dedicated GAS miner??? |
Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
182
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:03:00 -
[234] - Quote
Johan March wrote:The destroyer changes sound good too, but the old Navy man in me says "destroyer not [strike]shore[/strike] planet bombardment ship". Now special forces team insertion. That's what destroyers do. That's what happened in the trailer at FanFest, come to think of it. A Coercer dropped a team of DUST mercs onto a planet. |
WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
9
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:04:00 -
[235] - Quote
this is a heavy payload of win |
darmwand
Repo.
51
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:06:00 -
[236] - Quote
Grady Eltoren wrote:Too many frigates.
Huh, how can there be too many of something? I like having more combat frigates around, that will make fights much less predictable.
darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
GRIEV3R
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
26
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:09:00 -
[237] - Quote
1) These sweeping changes are very exciting. I can't wait to see them ingame! 2) The new mining frig looks awesome 3) next year's Hulkageddon will definitely be more interesting |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
699
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 16:10:00 -
[238] - Quote
darmwand wrote:Grady Eltoren wrote:Too many frigates. Huh, how can there be too many of something? I like having more combat frigates around, that will make fights much less predictable. Yeah. I mean, when I see a Drake, I surely expect something really really unpredictable.
The point is: given current mods/rigs balance, the number of ships is pretty much irrelevant - there are always like 1 or 3 (at most) usable setups. 14 |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
37
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:13:00 -
[239] - Quote
Selissa Shadoe wrote:[quote=Aemonchichi]If the Hulk is made any weaker and if the cargo hold is transformed to an 'ore hold' so that you're not able to increase the size with a cargo expander, then there's some real issues there. You'll be left making the 'best mining barge' (currently) in to something amazingly crappy just to make the other ship classes feel better. :/
There shouldn't be a flat out 'best' ship. Instead, there should be range of ships, each of which is best suited to a particular role or task. Which is what I think the devblog is suggesting. |
Lyta Jhonson
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.06.14 16:17:00 -
[240] - Quote
Devblog wrote:... we want to introduce new tech 1 destroyers to fill roles that are not yet covered ... Then what about new ship design contest like one we got tier 3 battlecruiser models from? |
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