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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
276
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:17:00 -
[511] - Quote
And thanks for the Answers!!! Now maybe we can stop arguing about cargo holds and some other stuff ... maybe
Is there any way we can get back the Cargo Expander rigs on our mining ships? They will be useless now, and when I bought them, they came with a lifetime warranty.... or something like that... |
None ofthe Above
217
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:18:00 -
[512] - Quote
Great post.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
ARE YOU CONSIDERING A ROLE OR ANY KIND OF BONUS TO MAKE FRIGATES BETTER AT LIGHTING UP CYNOSURAL FIELDS? We donGÇÖt necessarily want to make capital fleets easier to move than they already are, but if such an attribute is considered it will most likely be on the support frigates (Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe).
Good point. Yes, please lets not make power projection easier.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7993
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:18:00 -
[513] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hope that clears some confusion. Very much so. Thanks!
The only thing would be the differentiation between the T1 and T2 barges in terms of how old and new roles mesh and how the whole GÇ£all exhumers/barges will be close to the Hulk in yieldGÇ¥ bit plays out, but that's hard without actual numbers and I'm guessing you're not quite there yet.
In particular there's the question along the lines of why the dedicated ice miner (the old role of the Mack) will also be the solo ship (the new role of the Retriever hull). What if you want dedicated ice miners with group benefits?
Maul555 wrote:Tippia, I cant help but notice that you seem to take some perverse pleasure in making lazy miners lives more difficult. No, what I'm saying is that lazy miners will have the perfect tool for the job: the Mack/Retriever GÇö in fact, it will probably make their lives easier. It won't be as good at pulling in ore as the Covetor/Hulk, but that's the price you pay for laziness.
I'm also saying that people need to stop assuming that they must fly a Hulk. With these changes, it will be the wrong tool for the job in a lot of use cases GÇö preferably, it will only be a good choice in about 1 out of 6 use cases, rather than 5/6 as is the case right now. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Hoarr
RPS holdings
23
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:21:00 -
[514] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, thanks for the feedback, here are some answers for you.
[list.]
ARE YOU CONSIDERING CHANGING SOME FRIGATES TO FILL A LOGISTIC ROLE? Not at the moment, as we do not believe frigate hulls would be quite tailored for such a role: they are too frail and lack range to do the job properly. See the answer below for a more details on logistic ship plans. [/list]
Thanks for clearing all of that up. I'm really excited about the changes. The only thing that I have a question about is that you mention a separate section on another logi ship but then never get into them. What changes are you talking about? |
None ofthe Above
217
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:21:00 -
[515] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size.
Well that answers that. I think it's a reasonable approach. We live with this to an extent on the Orca.
When released you'll have a lot of Hulks and Covetors out there with cargo rigs though. Might be wise to have a plan for dealing with that, but I am sure that's clear already.
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MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
29
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:22:00 -
[516] - Quote
No the problem is CCP is finally fixing mining ships. The lazy AFK miners are still not happy until they get a MAX yield MAX tank MAX Cargo bay ship so they can play AFK all day long and not actually have to play the game. Haven't you noticed that not a single ganker tear has been shed by this because of the fact that unlink the "Lazy" miner they can adapt and change with the game. It makes me sad that we have such narrow sighted people in this game still. |
Knug LiDi
N00bFleeT Numquam Ambulare Solus
59
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:29:00 -
[517] - Quote
Denidil wrote:
did i say anything about mineral compression?
No, you didn't. As my original post questioned both the term and usage of "mineral compression", that was rather the point. I just pointed out, while thanking you for your contribution, that you didn't address "mineral compression" when responding to my post.
If only we could fall into a woman's arms
without falling into her hands |
Shootin' Star
The Fancy Hats Corporation
5
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:32:00 -
[518] - Quote
Geksz wrote:Btw. if u don't mine in a hostile enviroment (sic) - for example High sec - why would u fit for tank? Everything else you said may - or may not - make sense; but in the face of this, it's hard to care because this is so shockingly ignorant.
The answer to your question is: Because you're not an ignorant fool, and you actually realise that anytime you hit the undock button - whether you're in null, low or (yes!) high sec - you're entering "a hostile environment."
I have a completely carebear character who's fully qualified on all ORE ships through the Rorqual; and I don't care where in New Eden I am, I never undock any of those ships without at least a minimum reasonable tank. Why? Because even without the Goons continuing Hulkageddon, there's plenty of people - like me, on this character! - who'll gank you for some reason or for no reason whatsoever.
Bottom line: If you don't bother to tank at all - especially under so mistaken a believe as that there's some place in EvE that's not hostile - then you certainly deserve whatever happens. But who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and survive anyway. It's been known to happen ...
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None ofthe Above
218
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:37:00 -
[519] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, thanks for the feedback, here are some answers for you.
COULD YOU PLEASE AVOID USING LIGHT MISSILES ON FRIGATES, AS SUCH WEAPON SYSTEM ISN'T THAT GREAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? We may look at them if we find they arenGÇÖt that great during the frigate balancing.
Wait what?
Who said that?
Why is the Kestrel so popular as a frigate?
While light missiles could possibly use a boost (and battleship class Torps and Cruise while at it too please), I find it difficult to comprehend the idea that they would be eliminated from frigates.
The main problem with light missiles are the split weapons hulls that only have bonuses to one or the other. Wish you would consider doubling up on the bonuses in those cases. They would still be more skill intensive and fitting is an issue, since they don't share damage mods, but that's usually acceptable. Particularly true on frigates where you can't fit too many of weapons focused mods to begin with.
I personally enjoyed flying 2/2 Merlins and Tristans. It led to entertaining flexibility, and overcame a lot of the range issues with Hybrid turrets. They just needed those doubled up bonuses to be competitive in PVP.
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Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
84
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:40:00 -
[520] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, thanks for the feedback, here are some answers for you.
WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size.
Could at least make it big enough for two really good cycles from three strip miners IIs maxxed out? 10k m3 or so.
Thanks.
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Selissa Shadoe
102
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:44:00 -
[521] - Quote
Ribikoka wrote:Iq Cadaen wrote:Amazing changes, can't wait to see them go live. LOVE the mining frigate model. Maybe, but i dont know why need 6 months long time to change just few data. (to winter patch) They have ship editor tools and the testing phase not need 6 months.
LOL.. Come on, this is CCP we're talking about .. what makes you think there'll be a 'testing phase'? |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
74
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:45:00 -
[522] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size. Regardless of the role change to a "fleet" ship, the hulk (and all the ORE ships) still need to be able to hold at least 2 - 2.5 cycles (3 would be preferred) of their T2 strip miners & T2 crystals based on the bonuses of a "maxed" mining fleet.
Why? In a small gang, a hauler or Orca can sit around and handle the incoming ore - even if jetcanned. In a big fleet, it can be nearly if not impossible for the haulers to keep up with the miners. When a hostile group shows up, the miners can leave with the ore mined in their holds not needing to worry whether or not the haulers can scoop it all up before getting popped.
Also, please make sure the T1/T2 crystals are given their own cargo hold space and are "down-sized" in m3 (thanks Scrapyard Bob & Balder Verdandi for pointing this out). Again, not every "fleet" has their own dedicated "crystal distribution person". Part of fitting into a fleet means that you can be somewhat self-sufficient. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
277
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 17:48:00 -
[523] - Quote
I would like to echo requests for a Hulk ore bay that can hold at least 2 full cycles + drones from a maxed out player recieving max boosts (including implants, please)
Our chosen profession should not become a pain to do just because we are "too good"... But I guess I could "live" with enough space for 1 cycle |
Denidil
Larimer Highlands Heavy Industries
285
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:48:00 -
[524] - Quote
Can you give us a summary of what the planned roles are for each Mining Barge and Exhumer, a relative comparison of their yield (ore and ice), and a relative comparison of their tank?
i know these won't be exact as you guys are just sketchin them out now - but a rough sketch is better than none at all. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
39
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:49:00 -
[525] - Quote
Shootin' Star wrote:Geksz wrote:Btw. if u don't mine in a hostile enviroment (sic) - for example High sec - why would u fit for tank? Everything else you said may - or may not - make sense; but in the face of this, it's hard to care because this is so shockingly ignorant. The answer to your question is: Because you're not an ignorant fool, and you actually realise that anytime you hit the undock button - whether you're in null, low or (yes!) high sec - you're entering "a hostile environment." I have a completely carebear character who's fully qualified on all ORE ships through the Rorqual; and I don't care where in New Eden I am, I never undock any of those ships without at least a minimum reasonable tank. Why? Because even without the Goons continuing Hulkageddon, there's plenty of people - like me, on this character! - who'll gank you for some reason or for no reason whatsoever. Bottom line: If you don't bother to tank at all - especially under so mistaken a believe as that there's some place in EvE that's not hostile - then you certainly deserve whatever happens. But who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and survive anyway. It's been known to happen ...
I was using the "not hostile enviroment" in the means that usually u don't have to worry about other players killing u (the rare suicide gankers aside) like in low sec. So why tank ur ship more than the surrounding npcs' dps requires it? If u always tank for the worst from other players in high sec then u loose a lot of efficiency. Why would i overtank for a suicid ganker in every mission site when it rarely happens? I loose efficiency. In the same regard, why would i tank a Hulk to 32k EHP every time i undock from a station to go mine in high sec? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7996
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 17:53:00 -
[526] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Why? In a small gang, a hauler or Orca can sit around and handle the incoming ore - even if jetcanned. In a big fleet, it can be nearly if not impossible for the haulers to keep up with the miners. When a hostile group shows up, the miners can leave with the ore mined in their holds not needing to worry whether or not the haulers can scoop it all up before getting popped. Scale the number of haulers and Orcas to match the amount of ore pulled in by the miners?
The problem rather sounds like the Orca could use a few more highslots to fit more tractor beams so it can handle the flow of cans being dumped at the end of every cycleGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
39
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:54:00 -
[527] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Geksz wrote:Btw. if u don't mine in a hostile enviroment - for example High sec - why would u fit for tank? Because highsec is a hostile environment. In missions, you fit for sufficient tank to survive and being able to complete the mission without losing the ship. Same here: you fit your mining ship with sufficient tank to be able to survive an attack and bring back the ore. Outfitting a barge for maximum efficiency is like filling a mission ship with nothing but guns, weapon mods, tracking computers, drone mods and sensor boosters: not very clever, because it will not actually be efficient at all. As with anything, it's a cost-benefit analysis: is the benefit of getting 200m-¦ more ore worth the cost of losing 300M ISK worth of assets?
Every miner tanks their ships in the belts becouse of NPC rats. But to tank against destroyer gankers u sacrifice almost all of the Hulks bonus mining potential above the covetor. So why bother with a Hulk in the first place? |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
76
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:58:00 -
[528] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Scale the number of haulers and Orcas to match the amount of ore pulled in by the miners?
The problem rather sounds like the Orca could use a few more highslots to fit more tractor beams so it can handle the flow of cans being dumped at the end of every cycleGǪ Sorry, can't do that - those "extra" haulers/Orcas are supposed to be combat protection pilots. :)
And yes, the Orca needs a few more highslots - keep the 3 ganglink max, add 3 more slots for Tractors :) HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7997
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 18:06:00 -
[529] - Quote
Geksz wrote:Every miner tanks their ships in the belts becouse of NPC rats. But to tank against destroyer gankers u sacrifice almost all of the Hulks bonus mining potential above the covetor. So why bother with a Hulk in the first place? Because it lets you survive said ganks much better and because it still mines better than the Covetor.
GǪbut that's how it is now. How that changes after the revamp remains to be seen until we get some numbers. Most likely, it'll be a matter of having higher yield, better protection, and requiring less effort to use than the Covetor.
Infinite Force wrote:Sorry, can't do that - those "extra" haulers/Orcas are supposed to be combat protection pilots. :) You already have more miners than you can handle, apparently, so turn one of those into an Orca or hauler and attack the problem from both ends: more logistics (in the classic sense) to deal with a reduced workload = more ore being collected more efficiently without backing up the production chain. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
39
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:10:00 -
[530] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Geksz wrote:Every miner tanks their ships in the belts becouse of NPC rats. But to tank against destroyer gankers u sacrifice almost all of the Hulks bonus mining potential above the covetor. So why bother with a Hulk in the first place? Because it lets you survive said ganks much better and because it still mines better than the Covetor.
Yeah but then it ain't worth that 300M price tag...
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7997
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:12:00 -
[531] - Quote
Geksz wrote:Yeah but then it ain't worth that 300M price tag... That's for you and the market to decide, and isn't particularly relevant to the balancing of the two.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
76
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:13:00 -
[532] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinite Force wrote:Sorry, can't do that - those "extra" haulers/Orcas are supposed to be combat protection pilots. :) You already have more miners than you can handle, apparently, so turn one of those into an Orca or hauler and attack the problem from both ends: more logistics (in the classic sense) to deal with a reduced workload = more ore being collected more efficiently without backing up the production chain. Not everyone can or wants to fly an Orca. Not every fleet is "perfectly" balanced or sized (combat or otherwise). HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
279
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 18:16:00 -
[533] - Quote
Tippia, Where did you study for your degree in Monday Morning Quarterbacking?
I have someone who is looking for a good school... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7997
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 18:16:00 -
[534] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Not everyone can or wants to fly an Orca. Not every fleet is "perfectly" balanced or sized (combat or otherwise). That's a personnel problem, not an issue with the ships in question.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
40
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:16:00 -
[535] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Geksz wrote:-+ The Hulk is the biggest of all the mining ships, it would be odd that it has the smallest cargohold/orehold and also the smallest EHP from the 6 ships. Something has to be changed there. This also falls in to the GÇ£Hulk = bestGÇ¥ mindset. The entire point of the tiercide effort is that this will no longer be true. The Hulk will be the best for some purposes; the others will be better for others. Also, consider how tiny a portion of the overall ship the bay is. A Mackinaw is 150,000m-¦ GÇö the new ore bay accounts for 27,500m-¦ of that. The remaining 80% of the ship is taken up by whatever lore bits you'd want (engines, crew space, debris sorting etc). That give a lot of room for explaining why the Hulk is that much larger: maybe the sorting machinery that gives it that higher yield takes a whole lot of space GÇö everything is tripple-scanned instead of the once-over it gets in, say, a Skiff, so the skiff discards a whole lot more potentially useful pieces of rock. If the visuals bother you, it's easily fixed by switching the hulls around.
What *will* bother me if it's stats(mass, volume) and visuals will remain the same. Something has to justify that more mass and volume, but i doubt that any lore will be written to make it sensible...:( There are a lot of ships in EVE that are not consitent with their stats. And personally that can drive me mad, if i let it... :) |
Maul555
Nuts and Vindictive Remix Technologies
279
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:23:00 -
[536] - Quote
Geksz wrote:Tippia wrote:Geksz wrote:-+ The Hulk is the biggest of all the mining ships, it would be odd that it has the smallest cargohold/orehold and also the smallest EHP from the 6 ships. Something has to be changed there. This also falls in to the GÇ£Hulk = bestGÇ¥ mindset. The entire point of the tiercide effort is that this will no longer be true. The Hulk will be the best for some purposes; the others will be better for others. Also, consider how tiny a portion of the overall ship the bay is. A Mackinaw is 150,000m-¦ GÇö the new ore bay accounts for 27,500m-¦ of that. The remaining 80% of the ship is taken up by whatever lore bits you'd want (engines, crew space, debris sorting etc). That give a lot of room for explaining why the Hulk is that much larger: maybe the sorting machinery that gives it that higher yield takes a whole lot of space GÇö everything is tripple-scanned instead of the once-over it gets in, say, a Skiff, so the skiff discards a whole lot more potentially useful pieces of rock. If the visuals bother you, it's easily fixed by switching the hulls around. What * will* bother me if it's stats(mass, volume) and visuals will remain the same. Something has to justify that more mass and volume, but i doubt that any lore will be written to make it sensible...:( There are a lot of ships in EVE that are not consitent with their stats. And personally that can drive me mad, if i let it... :)
I agree. considering the drastic changes to the lower ships, Battleship sized tank on the little guy, and humungo sized bay on the medium one, with much less space on the big one, I would like to see a ship redesign along with the winter expansion. Something to physically reflect these changes. It will look a bit wonky as is.
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Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
40
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:26:00 -
[537] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Geksz wrote:Yeah but then it ain't worth that 300M price tag... That's for you and the market to decide, and isn't particularly relevant to the balancing of the two.
Yes, and no. I think that in it's current form it's too expensive a ship for it's fargility. If it were cheaper to build, it will be sold for less ISK and with it's current tanking cabalitities it might worth it's price.
I just hope that after the balancing/refactoring/wathever, it will have a better price/survival/efficiency balance that it has now.
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Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
76
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:32:00 -
[538] - Quote
Would also like to make sure that the "mining [insert battleship name]" can NOT out min a ship specially designed for this.
Battleships are not mining vessels, they are for combat.
Maybe a progression like this:
Mining Frig --> Mining BS --> Barges --> Exhumers HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go! |
Geksz
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
41
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:36:00 -
[539] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, thanks for the feedback, here are some answers for you.
- WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE HULK AFTER THE CHANGE? Exact modifications are still vague, but the plan is to quite reduce its cargo hold and add an ore bay of the same size than the removed cargo hold. That means cargo expanders and rigs wonGÇÖt affect the ore bay at all, requiring players to unload ore more frequently. This is by design, as we want the Hulk to be moved into a fleet purpose that has to rely on others to make proper use of its best mining output. That also means we will not be introducing items that affect the ore bay size.
Hope that clears some confusion.
Since the modifications are still vague, pls make that ore hold big enough for 2 full cycles of ore to be held with maxed bonuses. It's for conviniance. Anyone that has done any decent mining in fleet, alone with a timeframe of like more than 2 hours can tell u that sometimes u have to leave ur PC for more then 4 minutes or have something get ur attention ingame, or on the net that u forget to check ur miing barge between 2 cycles. I'm not a lazy miner, and never go AFK while mining. But sometimes i have to do some other stuff, and forget to check on the lasers for 4 minutes...
Is it that big of a request? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8001
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 18:37:00 -
[540] - Quote
Geksz wrote:Yes, and no. I think that in it's current form it's too expensive a ship for it's fargility. If it were cheaper to build, it will be sold for less ISK and with it's current tanking cabalitities it might worth it's price. It used to just cost 100M, and the only thing that has changed since is the market. It's already cheaper to build (wellGǪ aside from OTEC gouging you, but that's still not a factor in the ship balance. ) GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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