Originally by: Mashashige

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I have no experience with the nag - but how (other than capital missiles being pretty bad as mentioned by someone on the "dont nerf the pheonix weapon systems" thread) is the nag being nerfed? I thought it had 5% ROF to guns + 5% ROF to missiles since it was made?

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Originally by: Isil Rahsen

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Originally by: Mashashige

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I have no experience with the nag - but how (other than capital missiles being pretty bad as mentioned by someone on the "dont nerf the pheonix weapon systems" thread) is the nag being nerfed? I thought it had 5% ROF to guns + 5% ROF to missiles since it was made?

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It's current bonuses are 7.5% Damage on Proj and 7.5% Rof on Projectiles. Check TQ.

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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I really don't understand decreasing the DPS of dreads. Post domination, DPS will be the last remaining use to fly them often as SOV will no longer revolve around shooting fortified structures. They already have a hard time shooting against RR carriers as they stand.

I'm pretty certain now, that the balance team really have no idea what their doing.

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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I'm pretty certain now, that the balance team really have no idea what their doing.

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Originally by: Elaron

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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I'm pretty certain now, that the balance team really have no idea what their doing.

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I've been of that opinion since the non-answer about balance in the never-repeated "I'll answer all your questions" thread a couple of years ago.

There is apparently a dev blog coming, presumably about all capital warfare, and it had better be pretty damn epic otherwise - well, they thought the negativity they saw about ghost training and the carrier nerf was bad?

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Originally by: Mkiaki

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Originally by: Elaron

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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I'm pretty certain now, that the balance team really have no idea what their doing.

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I've been of that opinion since the non-answer about balance in the never-repeated "I'll answer all your questions" thread a couple of years ago.

There is apparently a dev blog coming, presumably about all capital warfare, and it had better be pretty damn epic otherwise - well, they thought the negativity they saw about ghost training and the carrier nerf was bad?

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Seriously man it's all good. CCP knows what they're doing.

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Originally by: Isil Rahsen

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We probably need to threadnought before we'll see any replies from CCP.

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Originally by: Altair Mogwa

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While i never believed they would change back to the old capital cyno effect it's the biggest petition thread I had/have seen in a long time, and it never even got an acknowledgment.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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While I do not know exactly what is being done, the last time I spoke to someone in graphics I was assured that this is being addressed and that the end result will be "more better awesome mozo cool". You may all proceed to spam the "WHEN?!" button, but that's all the information I have at this time. :)

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Originally by: Ragel Tropxe

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Edited by: Ragel Tropxe on 14/11/2009 13:41:50
Edited by: Ragel Tropxe on 14/11/2009 13:09:56
just as a reminder to the Devs - this is a quote from Abathurs initial blog about the Cap changes

"Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode."

so...lets ask again - why change the Naglfar???

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Originally by: Faol'gus

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They are boosting projectiles. The increase in performance for capital projectile guns requires a comparable nerf in ship bonuses to compensate.

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Originally by: Pedron Niaal

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they think that with the new sov changes, close range dreads for TCU killin ops will be used. That might be possible of you control the whole system anyways. but the technique of dread warfare at the moment is range > closerange as always.

a naglfar with citadel torps and ACs, can dish out lots of damage. but you can totally forget it compared to a Revelation with its possibility to do close AND long range dps. aswell as dread battle range from about 50km.

The Artilleries so lack 2.5% of dmg and 7.5% of rof, thats hilarious... compared to what it was. EVEN with the other guns adjusted.

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Originally by: Faol'gus

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They are boosting projectiles. The increase in performance for capital projectile guns requires a comparable nerf in ship bonuses to compensate.

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Originally by: Random Womble

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Originally by: Faol'gus

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They are boosting projectiles. The increase in performance for capital projectile guns requires a comparable nerf in ship bonuses to compensate.

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even if EMP damage gets boosted by 10% before nag got boosted last patch it effectively got a 50% DPS bonus with dread 5 (7.5% rof/level) and lasers/hybrids still did more damage when fitted now its effectively got a 25% DPS bonus +10% ammo increase which means 37.5% overall DPS bonus on projectiles vs unbonused right now with current ammo so thats 12.5% less than before the last patch when it got boosted and that was IF you have a Lv5 dread pilot so now there will be an even bigger difference between how effective projectiles are on a nag vs hybrids/lasers. If they really were trying to nerf it because of the ammo changes then reducing the current 7.5% damage bonus to just 5% would have meant a 10% damage reduction for most pilots or 12.5% reduction for max skilled which is pretty much equivalent to the boost given to the ammo. Leaving the 7.5% ROF bonus in place and still making the nag better with projectiles than other weapons.

But obviously that may just be too logical for CCP to follow

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Originally by: Cornette

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Now if I train for Amarr the nerf train should reach full circle soon enough.

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Originally by: Cornette

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Now if I train for Amarr the nerf train should reach full circle soon enough.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Edited by: Seishi Maru on 15/11/2009 16:12:22

Originally by: Random Womble

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A 10% damage boost on 70% of the base damage of the ship is a7% damage boost. Tha we got form EMP.. doe snto compensate the HUGE nerf at all fromt he bonuses.

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Originally by: Random Womble

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Edited by: Seishi Maru on 15/11/2009 16:12:22

Originally by: Random Womble

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---

A 10% damage boost on 70% of the base damage of the ship is a7% damage boost. Tha we got form EMP.. doe snto compensate the HUGE nerf at all fromt he bonuses.

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I think you missed the point of my post i think current nerf is silly and it would be more sensible instead to keep it 2 projectile bonuses and just change the projectile damage bonus from 7.5% to 5% with Lv4 dread effective DPS multiplier from bonuses (and projectile damage change) for projectile guns would look roughly like this:
Nag 1 year ago - 1.43x
Nag on TQ now - 1.86x
Nag on SiSi with 9.1% EMP boost - 1.309x
Nag I proposed above (7.5% projectile ROF, 5% Projectile Damage bonus) with 9.1% EMP boost - 1.87x (so a very very slight increase for Lv4 over current TQ nag slight decrease for Lv5, Lv5 curently on TQ is x2.2 with this change would be x2.182 but again roughly equal)

Now that admittedly is only the damage modifier for projectile damage so that ignores that the missile damage is buffed on Nag 1 year ago and Nag on SiSi (not including the actual torp DPS boost which would be irrelevant if using citadel cruise) however bonusing both projectiles and missiles also means reverting back to needing both types of damage mods which is not good.

I also had forgotten that blaster and railgun DPS is being boosted so infact the gap would be even larger between nag fitted with hybrids over nag fitted with projectiles than I was thinking.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Someone has made a massive, massive mistake. Look at the numbers, and if 7.5% ROF/Damage is too much, make it 7.5% Damage/5% ROF. If the changes are so effing ridiculous at the XL level that even that is too much, make it 5% Damage/5% ROF.

Do not make the Nag a split system ship again.

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Originally by: gorak cz

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I'll leave it with hope that its bad joke or fail old ship info

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Originally by: Kai Lae

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I'd love to see a justification for this change, because as far as I can tell there isn't one.

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Originally by: Mkiaki

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The change to the Nag is awesome

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Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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There still are some pilots flying Minmatar capitals - this cannot be allowed to continue. Hence the changes.

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Originally by: Kai Lae

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Meanwhile, revelation is as awesome as always. There seems to be no logic behind it all, it's almost like their using a magic 8 ball on mondays on what they should nerf next.

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Originally by: Kai Lae

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Meanwhile, revelation is as awesome as always. There seems to be no logic behind it all, it's almost like their using a magic 8 ball on mondays on what they should nerf next.

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 16/11/2009 20:50:28
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 16/11/2009 20:41:10
These changes where done by Nozh along with the Super-carrier changes FYI.

I'm just furious that there's been no rationale or even explanation as to why. Seems like typical Jack Bauer Dev going rouge to save the day by ninja edits to the database action here tbh.

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 16/11/2009 20:41:10
These changes where done by Nozh along with the Super-carrier changes FYI.

I'm just furious that there's been no rationale or even explanation as to why. Seems like typical Jack Bauer Dev going rouge to save the day by ninja edits to the database action here tbh.

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Originally by: Schmell

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Edited by: Schmell on 15/11/2009 17:43:08

Originally by: Cornette

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Now if I train for Amarr the nerf train should reach full circle soon enough.

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Oh plz train amarr faster, i beg you.

So, what do we have:

1) Sov revamp. Result: strange

2) AF boost. Status: cancelled

3) Projectiles boost. Status: falloff boost cancelled in the very last moment

4) Capital ships and weapons rebalance. Status: totally ****ed up

5)....


I think this patch should have name "Eve-Online: Asylum"

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Originally by: Otebski

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At least its still VERTICAL!

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Originally by: Ernst Ra'Kun

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I had planned and invested quite a lot to training for the naglfar. I was quite happy with the boost they gave but now.... sigh...

is there any way this can be a good ship still or do i just train for amarr?

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Originally by: BearCare

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1. Why isn't this on first page?

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Originally by: HeliosGal

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its as it is we adapt or die

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Originally by: HeliosGal

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its as it is we adapt or die

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It is a horrible design mistake that took forever to fix in the first place. The Nag needs it's double turret bonuses back. Just tweak them to the appropriate level.

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Originally by: Arramis

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Originally by: HeliosGal

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its as it is we adapt or die

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It is a horrible design mistake that took forever to fix in the first place. The Nag needs it's double turret bonuses back. Just tweak them to the appropriate level.

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You are another clueless noob ..it seems. It got rid of dual bonuces for various motives, but it`s hard to read before posting.

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Originally by: Roemy Schneider

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Originally by: Ernst Ra'Kun

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I had planned and invested quite a lot to training for the naglfar. I was quite happy with the boost they gave but now.... sigh...

is there any way this can be a good ship still or do i just train for amarr?

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if the hel remains to be the only mom with an explosion radius bonus to fighter bombers, it could very well be the only minnie capital with an edge.

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Quote:

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Only a few months ago, the Naglfar was changed by CCP Chronotis to be focused more on projectile damage than relying on split weapon bonuses. See thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1061225, specifically post 498 on page 17 which details the changes that made it to Tranquility.

This came about after a very long period of player lobbying with proof that the Naglfar was substantially subpar compared to the other dreadnoughts. This lobbying effort even involved the CSM, and the improvement to the ship has been touted since as one of the things the CSM has achieved.

The current change on SiSi back to split weapon bonuses undoes a significant portion of the improvement. The Naglfar is already the most training-intensive dreadnought to pilot (requiring two - soon three - capital weapon systems trained as well as, for maximum fitting flexibility, both capital tanking methods); to hamper it with what will effectively be only one weapon bonus (it is mathematically demonstrable that two split weapon bonuses are equivalent to one weapon bonus on more focused ships) feels unjust and poorly thought out. On top of it, fitting it will be more problematic as the requirement to fit double the number of weapon modules in order to get the same increase in damage means less slots available for tanking.

Please revisit the Naglfar changes before Dominion and I implore you to revert the ship back to focused weapon bonuses, with citadel missiles being a supplement to DPS, not a major component. The current change on SiSi is desperately unfair to a ship that has only just been changed to let it be competitive for the first time. If you feel that the Tranquility bonuses of 7.5% each overdo it for the ship, then by all means reduce them, but please keep the projectile focus that the players and the CSM lobbied so hard for.

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Originally by: Elaron

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I've submitted bug report ID #86867 with the following text:

Quote:

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Only a few months ago, the Naglfar was changed by CCP Chronotis to be focused more on projectile damage than relying on split weapon bonuses. See thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1061225, specifically post 498 on page 17 which details the changes that made it to Tranquility.

This came about after a very long period of player lobbying with proof that the Naglfar was substantially subpar compared to the other dreadnoughts. This lobbying effort even involved the CSM, and the improvement to the ship has been touted since as one of the things the CSM has achieved.

The current change on SiSi back to split weapon bonuses undoes a significant portion of the improvement. The Naglfar is already the most training-intensive dreadnought to pilot (requiring two - soon three - capital weapon systems trained as well as, for maximum fitting flexibility, both capital tanking methods); to hamper it with what will effectively be only one weapon bonus (it is mathematically demonstrable that two split weapon bonuses are equivalent to one weapon bonus on more focused ships) feels unjust and poorly thought out. On top of it, fitting it will be more problematic as the requirement to fit double the number of weapon modules in order to get the same increase in damage means less slots available for tanking.

Please revisit the Naglfar changes before Dominion and I implore you to revert the ship back to focused weapon bonuses, with citadel missiles being a supplement to DPS, not a major component. The current change on SiSi is desperately unfair to a ship that has only just been changed to let it be competitive for the first time. If you feel that the Tranquility bonuses of 7.5% each overdo it for the ship, then by all means reduce them, but please keep the projectile focus that the players and the CSM lobbied so hard for.

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Looking forward to seeing what the response is.

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Originally by: CCP Nohz's new blahg

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Due to the changes made to XL Turrets, Citadel Missiles/Torpedoes and projectile turrets, the Naglfar became an absolute monster, not in a good way. The weapon bonuses on the Naglfar had to be adjusted to keep the balance intact.

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Quote:

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The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Elaron

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I've submitted bug report ID #86867 with the following text:

Quote:

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Only a few months ago, the Naglfar was changed by CCP Chronotis to be focused more on projectile damage than relying on split weapon bonuses. See thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1061225, specifically post 498 on page 17 which details the changes that made it to Tranquility.

This came about after a very long period of player lobbying with proof that the Naglfar was substantially subpar compared to the other dreadnoughts. This lobbying effort even involved the CSM, and the improvement to the ship has been touted since as one of the things the CSM has achieved.

The current change on SiSi back to split weapon bonuses undoes a significant portion of the improvement. The Naglfar is already the most training-intensive dreadnought to pilot (requiring two - soon three - capital weapon systems trained as well as, for maximum fitting flexibility, both capital tanking methods); to hamper it with what will effectively be only one weapon bonus (it is mathematically demonstrable that two split weapon bonuses are equivalent to one weapon bonus on more focused ships) feels unjust and poorly thought out. On top of it, fitting it will be more problematic as the requirement to fit double the number of weapon modules in order to get the same increase in damage means less slots available for tanking.

Please revisit the Naglfar changes before Dominion and I implore you to revert the ship back to focused weapon bonuses, with citadel missiles being a supplement to DPS, not a major component. The current change on SiSi is desperately unfair to a ship that has only just been changed to let it be competitive for the first time. If you feel that the Tranquility bonuses of 7.5% each overdo it for the ship, then by all means reduce them, but please keep the projectile focus that the players and the CSM lobbied so hard for.

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Looking forward to seeing what the response is.

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Originally by: CCP Nohz's new blahg

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Due to the changes made to XL Turrets, Citadel Missiles/Torpedoes and projectile turrets, the Naglfar became an absolute monster, not in a good way. The weapon bonuses on the Naglfar had to be adjusted to keep the balance intact.

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yeah sure lol....

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Edited by: Seriously Bored on 20/11/2009 00:18:30
It's obvious that with 7.5% dual damage bonuses combined with the new turret changes, the Nagl would be very, very overpowered.

But making it split weapon against is the worst thing conceivable. CCP is making another Level 5 skill (Cruise missiles) mandatory to fly this thing, not to mention that sniping with missiles will still be a crappy idea. A different approach must be taken.

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Quote:

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The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.

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Originally by: Kraken Kill

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Why cant a Dread that has 4! Dread weapons be the Dread which does the most DPS?

why is it always the Amarr who do the most DPS followed by the Gallente? All minmatar dread pilots will need to train Citadel cruise now. uh why do i even bother posting. might as well talk to myself while i play navyfield.

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Originally by: Ernst Ra'Kun

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Are the new proposed XL projectile changes that good that the nag needs this severe a nerf?

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Originally by: Ernst Ra'Kun

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Are the new proposed XL projectile changes that good that the nag needs this severe a nerf?

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I've been doing the math...they might be. At least to justify a large reduction in the bonuses. I think making it split weapon again is the most severe part of the nerf, however.

But I guess I'm going to have to take a closer look at the missile changes and what it does to final real DPS before complaining further.

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Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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This is simply insulting. A new devblog entry is out concerning capitals, and the massive Naglfar nerf isn't mentioned at all - not even in passing. It's like the ship already doesn't exist.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Edited by: Seriously Bored on 20/11/2009 03:34:14

Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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This is simply insulting. A new devblog entry is out concerning capitals, and the massive Naglfar nerf isn't mentioned at all - not even in passing. It's like the ship already doesn't exist.

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See the image below your post. That's exactly what CCP Nozh said about it.

ED: Any optimism I had was lost once the line "Capital Torps will need Target Painters for full effectiveness" was uttered.

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Originally by: Umbra Armanis

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WTS minmatar dreadnought skillbook.
Literally meant to be plugging it in today, don't think I'll bother now..

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Originally by: 1600 RT

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http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=717

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: 1600 RT

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http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=717

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based on that blog that i gave my last post here.


A dev that talks about using target painters, clearly not considerign that dreads, moms, titans, POS, pos structures... in fact ALL dreadnaught targets are IMUNE to them.. The rest of targets.. liek battleships... would need 8 not stack nerfed target painters to reach full damage... BUT target painters ARE stack nerfed!!! Someone that writes something like that clearly cannot be taken seriously. Same complete blindness that brings up ideas like cheap motherships that can dock in outposts.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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ED: Any optimism I had was lost once the line "Capital Torps will need Target Painters for full effectiveness" was uttered.

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Originally by: Liisa

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Has somebody actually modeled the damage the "new" dreadnoughts and their weapon systems do?

It would be interesting to see just how good or bad the naglfar actually does in comparison before we really go mental, though the new split damage bonus does annoy quite a bit.

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Originally by: Lilith Velkor

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Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 20/11/2009 17:22:48

Originally by: Seriously Bored

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ED: Any optimism I had was lost once the line "Capital Torps will need Target Painters for full effectiveness" was uttered.

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I'm actually wondering if there is a stealth buff to target painters in the working.

Would make sense to have them work on sieged dreads, triaged carriers and otherwise ewar-immune supercaps, as it doesnt interfere with any systems on the target ship but just points a flashlight at them.

Would give my Rapier some use in fleets, apart from the obvious "hey lets pop this recon for teh lulz" target decoy.

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Originally by: Lilith Velkor

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Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 20/11/2009 17:22:48

Originally by: Seriously Bored

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ED: Any optimism I had was lost once the line "Capital Torps will need Target Painters for full effectiveness" was uttered.

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I'm actually wondering if there is a stealth buff to target painters in the working.

Would make sense to have them work on sieged dreads, triaged carriers and otherwise ewar-immune supercaps, as it doesnt interfere with any systems on the target ship but just points a flashlight at them.

Would give my Rapier some use in fleets, apart from the obvious "hey lets pop this recon for teh lulz" target decoy.

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Originally by: Isil Rahsen

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Edited by: Isil Rahsen on 21/11/2009 00:43:44

Originally by: Mioelnir

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Originally by: CCP Hammer

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[...]
We could have tried to put out ôsomethingö just because we have been talking about it, but then we would be in a situation where players are getting into ships that might very well change again in a coming patch.
[...]

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That's a funny thing to say when there are Naglfar pilots in the audience. Exactly how many patches now was the Naglfar worthwhile before you smacked it down again and brought back the worst possible bonus type eve has to offer (the split weapon bonus)?

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Hahaha nice catch. I completely overlooked that comment. Lets see how long before both these posts get deleted.
Post [1381]

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Edited by: Seishi Maru on 20/11/2009 11:53:11
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 20/11/2009 11:06:42
FOR GOD'S SAKE. What is wrogn with you NOHZ? Do not balance things upon your new STUPID short range weapons that are useless and will not see comba6t more than 5% of ships.!!!


Do not nerf the naglfar because you think people will use your useless torpedoes with pathetic 36 KM range! I have NEVER EVER fired at any capital ship under 40 km while piloting a dread!

The XL long range projectiels are NOT stronger.. the reduction on damage will be HUGE HUGE. A dreadnaught that cannot land damage at 170-180 km is worthless nowadays. Phoenix can use rigs to achieve that. Other ships can use track enhancers. Naglfar needs to USE BOTH!!!! That sided with havign to use BOTH types of damage mods.





GET REAL!


Also LOL Target painters? Target paint what? Dreads that are immune to them? POS modules that are immune to them? MOtherships and titans that are immune to them?

Or carriers and battleships that simply due to being always moving and beign small enough that 3 stack nerfed target painters will not be able to raise the torpedo damage to anything larger than a LOL ?



Again! GET REAL!



Split weapons do not escalate when either on damage and on range since you need a LOT more modules to do it!



Naglfar was unbalanced? Ok Keep the 7.5% dual bonus and REMOVE 1 missile launcher. EVEN BOTH. Because the real focused weapon system on the ship was the ONLY useful part!



Congratulations nohz you managed to set a new record to the most massive utterly exagerated nerf that EVER happened one sided way on this game!

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Originally by: Nobani

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Edited by: Nobani on 21/11/2009 00:32:28
In keeping with CCP's new ship role kick, may I present race roles:

Amarr: Fleet PVP, also everything else too
Caldari: PVE
Gallente: Getting laughed at
Minmatar: Small gang PVP

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Naglfar was unbalanced? Ok Keep the 7.5% dual bonus and REMOVE 1 missile launcher. EVEN BOTH. Because the real focused weapon system on the ship was the ONLY useful part!

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Originally by: Linas IV

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Really throw away the Launchers and increase the Projectile Bonuses FINALY that its two Turrets can compare with the three on other dreads.

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Originally by: Arramis

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Edited by: Arramis on 21/11/2009 12:34:59

Linkage - this explains everithing.

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Originally by: Arramis

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Edited by: Arramis on 21/11/2009 12:34:59

Linkage - this explains everithing.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Bringing this up. Because if CCP tough that the old naglfar rants and whines were a lot. ... they better get ready to what will come from the comunity every frickign day even after dominion is deployed until this is solved!

The because of falcon Meme will sound like a joke compared to what will happen.

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Originally by: Linas IV

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Naglfar was unbalanced? Ok Keep the 7.5% dual bonus and REMOVE 1 missile launcher. EVEN BOTH. Because the real focused weapon system on the ship was the ONLY useful part!

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QFT

Really throw away the Launchers and increase the Projectile Bonuses FINALY that its two Turrets can compare with the three on other dreads.

The new Citadel Torps/Cruises are utterly trash for nearly every purpose, and No TPs aren't the Way to go to fix them!

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Really throw away the Launchers and increase the Projectile Bonuses FINALY that its two Turrets can compare with the three on other dreads.

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Originally by: Roemy Schneider

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Originally by: Ernst Ra'Kun

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I had planned and invested quite a lot to training for the naglfar. I was quite happy with the boost they gave but now.... sigh...

is there any way this can be a good ship still or do i just train for amarr?

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if the hel remains to be the only mom with an explosion radius bonus to fighter bombers, it could very well be the only minnie capital with an edge.

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Originally by: Jack Coutu

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FIRE NOZH

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Originally by: HeliosGal

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actualy ignore the 00 whiners and go with the balance. Put dominions thro and have a mini patch with mothership changes to make em adapt or die more

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Originally by: HeliosGal

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actualy ignore the 00 whiners and go with the balance. Put dominions thro and have a mini patch with mothership changes to make em adapt or die more

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Originally by: Vabjekf

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Once you have 12 decillion skill points you can equip smaller ships in your slots and shoot rifters at people

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Originally by: Elaron

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Originally by: HeliosGal

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actualy ignore the 00 whiners and go with the balance. Put dominions thro and have a mini patch with mothership changes to make em adapt or die more

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I wouldn't have minded a reduction in the Naglfar's bonuses for balance, but returning the ship to having a split weapon bonus is asinine and insulting.

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Originally by: Myrkala

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Split weapons suck CCP!

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Originally by: Myrkala

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Split weapons suck CCP!

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The ironic thing is that the devs said so themselves in the Faction/Pirate ship balance threads. I wish I knew where to dig it up, but the sentiment was, "We've learned that split weapon systems are a very bad idea over the years..."

And then they did this. It's surgery with a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.

For the love of all things rusty, change it back to double projectile bonuses and reduce them!

Please read this post by Mioelnir for why these bonus changes are sensible.

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Quote:

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Naglfar: Final Edition

Slot Layout:
4 / 6 / 6
2x Turrets / 1x Missile-launcher
(one less Highslot and ML, reduce PG accordingly)

Bonuses:
5% XL-Projectile Rof per level
7,5% XL-Projectile Falloff per level

Role Bonus:
50% XL-Projectile Damage


Results: (with the new weapon changes)

-3 Effective bonused Weapons (Turrets) finaly!! => same as all other dreads.
-Still the weakest Tank.
-Closerange Turret-Damage slightly below Rev-Level, a bit above when using the aditional Torp Launcher. (but still well below Moros with Ions + Sentries)
-Reasonably able to hit Towers with ACs. (due to Falloff-Bonus)
-Longrange Turret-Damage on par with the Moros, a bit more range due to higher Falloff, but still a lot less dmg than a Rev.
-Added Damage for additional skill time (1x Cit-Torp/Cruise) but not necessary.

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Originally by: Linas IV

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=> Fixed Naglfar

So please try to consider it at least.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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That's more powerful that the original 7.5%/7.5% Nag bonuses man...

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Originally by: BanMeAgainPlz

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They've gone into full stealth "we don't give a **** mode" and are going to do whatever they want regardless of what the playerbase says.

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Originally by: BanMeAgainPlz

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They've gone into full stealth "we don't give a **** mode" and are going to do whatever they want regardless of what the playerbase says. It's plainly obvious from the fact that the devblog thread has been ignored since the day it was posted and this thread has never gotten a dev reply while I watch new threads get a dev reply within hours of being posted. What a shock.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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The thread got two replies to my knowledge...

Not to keep bashing a certain dev (who is getting far more than his share of the blame), but the first reply tried to demonstrate that cap torps were overpowered on Moms that use 5x Drone Control Units and 3x Target Painters against un-seiged Dreads. The second reply was Hammer saying that entire balance team acts as a unit, and no one changes anything without it being agreed on.

I wish any part of the above were an exaggeration.

Come on CCP. You know there are better options. Don't double gimp the Nag...

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Originally by: Typhado3

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Edited by: Typhado3 on 23/11/2009 06:42:37
....

why do we even bother, they obviously don't give a **** about what we think, they'll just remove months of feedback and changes in a weekend as a minor balance change.

Eve is just so porely balanced and at best it's in a perpetual state of half finishedness.

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Originally by: Merfio

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Regarding to the capital torpedoes, i dont get why people whine about it.

Youre complaining about sig radius of POS being to small to get hit by them. I got news for you:

POS ARENT SOV RELATED ANYMORE. YOU NOW SHOOT THINGS LIKE STATIONS AND HUBS.
THEY HAVE NO FORCEFIELD. SHORT RANGE FIT.

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Originally by: Nobani

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Originally by: Merfio

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Regarding to the capital torpedoes, i dont get why people whine about it.

Youre complaining about sig radius of POS being to small to get hit by them. I got news for you:

POS ARENT SOV RELATED ANYMORE. YOU NOW SHOOT THINGS LIKE STATIONS AND HUBS.
THEY HAVE NO FORCEFIELD. SHORT RANGE FIT.

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Because no one's ever going to fight over moon minerals or engage opposing cap fleets in Dominion. The same way no cap fights happen at short range and target painting is an effective way of increasing the sig radius of structures, sieged dreads and supercaps.

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Originally by: Merfio

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Edited by: Merfio on 25/11/2009 17:47:39
Edited by: Merfio on 25/11/2009 17:46:57

Originally by: Nobani

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Originally by: Merfio

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Regarding to the capital torpedoes, i dont get why people whine about it.

Youre complaining about sig radius of POS being to small to get hit by them. I got news for you:

POS ARENT SOV RELATED ANYMORE. YOU NOW SHOOT THINGS LIKE STATIONS AND HUBS.
THEY HAVE NO FORCEFIELD. SHORT RANGE FIT.

---

Because no one's ever going to fight over moon minerals or engage opposing cap fleets in Dominion. The same way no cap fights happen at short range and target painting is an effective way of increasing the sig radius of structures, sieged dreads and supercaps.

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Did you actually read my post? theyre boosting short range capital torpedos. So how does this fit to the "caps arent used on short range anyway"? omg youre really into making your day miserable. Supercapitals are already big enough. They dont need painting. And with reduced rof ( im repeating this until your head will accept it) your so called "nerf" isnt really one.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Merfio

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Edited by: Merfio on 25/11/2009 17:47:39
Edited by: Merfio on 25/11/2009 17:46:57

Originally by: Nobani

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Originally by: Merfio

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Regarding to the capital torpedoes, i dont get why people whine about it.

Youre complaining about sig radius of POS being to small to get hit by them. I got news for you:

POS ARENT SOV RELATED ANYMORE. YOU NOW SHOOT THINGS LIKE STATIONS AND HUBS.
THEY HAVE NO FORCEFIELD. SHORT RANGE FIT.

---

Because no one's ever going to fight over moon minerals or engage opposing cap fleets in Dominion. The same way no cap fights happen at short range and target painting is an effective way of increasing the sig radius of structures, sieged dreads and supercaps.

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Did you actually read my post? theyre boosting short range capital torpedos. So how does this fit to the "caps arent used on short range anyway"? omg youre really into making your day miserable. Supercapitals are already big enough. They dont need painting. And with reduced rof ( im repeating this until your head will accept it) your so called "nerf" isnt really one.

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Have you ever been in a large cap fight? You realize when you jump 100 dreads into a cyno they will NEVER EVER result in more than 2/3 of them land anywhere near inside a radius of 40 km due to bumping?

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Originally by: Merfio

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stufff too piramidic to quote

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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stuff

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Originally by: Merfio

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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stuff

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Ok now im getting you but aint that more a issue of bumping mechanics then capital weapons and/or ships?

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Merfio

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stufff too piramidic to quote

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nope.. You are simply unable to grasp what he is saying. His sentence might be a tad too complex for the average forum warrior but he presented a composite statement instead of a pair of independent statements. He is attacking CCP nohz line of tought, that started with a presumption based of thin air and ended in a solution based on an impossible game mechanic, not the condition of capital range itself. CCp simply failed even to understand why people fit long range guns! Its not because fights never happen close. Its because its too risky to get coutner dropped or simply bumped outside range of your guns and then stay 10 minutes.. waiting as a fat duck target unable to do anything!


Capital fights happen in short range.. but short range is far far LONGER range than 36 km. Long range is 200 km. anything around 50-70 km is still short range for dreadnaught fights.

Its a simple known fact for dreadnaught pilots that when a fleet jump anywhere a crapload of dreads will bump, and the average dread bump moves it way out of new torpedo ranges. And even if by miracle you end up inside range they do less than HALF damage to their main targets.

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Originally by: Merfio

---

Regarding to the capital torpedoes, i dont get why people whine about it.

Youre complaining about sig radius of POS being to small to get hit by them. I got news for you:

POS ARENT SOV RELATED ANYMORE. YOU NOW SHOOT THINGS LIKE STATIONS AND HUBS.
THEY HAVE NO FORCEFIELD. SHORT RANGE FIT.

---

Originally by: SiSi bonuses for the Naglfar

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Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Projectile damage per level
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level.

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Originally by: Max Hardcase

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There would be no need then, if everyone only flies Amarr then by definition everyone would be one the same playing field.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Wonder if ccp is paying attention how many naglfars are being suicided before insurance expires. Personally I know already 3 pilots :)

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Originally by: Elaron

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Edited by: Elaron on 27/11/2009 15:55:07

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Wonder if ccp is paying attention how many naglfars are being suicided before insurance expires. Personally I know already 3 pilots :)

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Well, I'm seriously thinking about liquidating the investment I made in my Naggy.

Edit: Oh yes, and it look like that RoF bonus applying to non-Citadel launchers is intended.

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Originally by: Max Hardcase

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There would be no need then, if everyone only flies Amarr then by definition everyone would be one the same playing field.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Elaron

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Edited by: Elaron on 27/11/2009 15:55:07

Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Wonder if ccp is paying attention how many naglfars are being suicided before insurance expires. Personally I know already 3 pilots :)

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Well, I'm seriously thinking about liquidating the investment I made in my Naggy.

Edit: Oh yes, and it look like that RoF bonus applying to non-Citadel launchers is intended.

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aa now makes sense why they delayed the rocket boost! THey feared naglfar woudl be too powerful against POS if using rockets!

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Originally by: Kalia Masaer

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And sadly we will end up with a new flavor of the year and amarr ships will become obsolete, while one of the other races becomes the hands down top dog.

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Originally by: Kalia Masaer

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And sadly we will end up with a new flavor of the year and amarr ships will become obsolete, while one of the other races becomes the hands down top dog.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Originally by: Kalia Masaer

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And sadly we will end up with a new flavor of the year and amarr ships will become obsolete, while one of the other races becomes the hands down top dog.

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I have a feeling that won't ever happen. Notice that every Dread got nerfed directly or indirectly this patch except for the Rev?

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Merfio

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stufff too piramidic to quote

---

nope.. You are simply unable to grasp what he is saying. His sentence might be a tad too complex for the average forum warrior but he presented a composite statement instead of a pair of independent statements. He is attacking CCP nohz line of tought, that started with a presumption based of thin air and ended in a solution based on an impossible game mechanic, not the condition of capital range itself. CCp simply failed even to understand why people fit long range guns! Its not because fights never happen close. Its because its too risky to get coutner dropped or simply bumped outside range of your guns and then stay 10 minutes.. waiting as a fat duck target unable to do anything!


Capital fights happen in short range.. but short range is far far LONGER range than 36 km. Long range is 200 km. anything around 50-70 km is still short range for dreadnaught fights.

Its a simple known fact for dreadnaught pilots that when a fleet jump anywhere a crapload of dreads will bump, and the average dread bump moves it way out of new torpedo ranges. And even if by miracle you end up inside range they do less than HALF damage to their main targets.

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Originally by: Gronker Lonker

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I did some calcs with EFT:

New DPS according to EFT : old values in brackets

Rev 4380 (4754) -367
Mor 4026 (4530) -504
Pho 3934 (4570) -636 --> (no Faction CRs availible (~+10%))
Nag 3404 (4630) -1226 --> (no Faction CRs availible (~+5%))

All ships with All lvl 5, 3 Dmg-Mods, low tier faction ammo and 5x bouncer II.

Without faction ammo, Rev and Pho should be pretty much equal at Pure-DPS (but have the explosion-radius in mind). The Moros is a bit behind and the Naglfar is ... ****ed.

Maybe the new EFT is just wrong but if not, CCP needs some help at math.

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Originally by: Dursun Idris

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Worst tank. "Lol" damage. So what is the point of nagl***s? Poke enemy dreads with its pointy parts?

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Originally by: Wildest

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Edited by: Wildest on 03/12/2009 11:00:25
i think i know what CCP is trying to do to all minmatar pilots...they want us to fly only Command ships or lower ...and maybe the occasional BS....couse frankly at the way minmatar caps are now u would be better off flying a Sleipnir into combat..as it would prolly do more dmg to the other fleet then ur naglfar...

my 2 cents

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Originally by: Dursun Idris

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Originally by: Wildest

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Edited by: Wildest on 03/12/2009 11:00:25
i think i know what CCP is trying to do to all minmatar pilots...they want us to fly only Command ships or lower ...and maybe the occasional BS....couse frankly at the way minmatar caps are now u would be better off flying a Sleipnir into combat..as it would prolly do more dmg to the other fleet then ur naglfar...

my 2 cents

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I agree your opinion that they are on the way to remove minmatar caps. But at least, minmatar BS's got a reason to deploy now, both with ac's and arties... But i feel a nerfbat coming soon to ac faloff :( (After i saw easyly obtainable 90km faloff - can go to 130 and 150 with fantasy setups - on AC's)

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Originally by: Gronker Lonker

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I did some calcs with EFT:

New DPS according to EFT : old values in brackets

Rev 4380 (4754) -367
Mor 4026 (4530) -504
Pho 3934 (4570) -636 --> (no Faction CRs availible (~+10%))
Nag 3404 (4630) -1226 --> (no Faction CRs availible (~+5%))

All ships with All lvl 5, 3 Dmg-Mods, low tier faction ammo and 5x bouncer II.

Without faction ammo, Rev and Pho should be pretty much equal at Pure-DPS (but have the explosion-radius in mind). The Moros is a bit behind and the Naglfar is ... ****ed.

Maybe the new EFT is just wrong but if not, CCP needs some help at math.

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Naglfar sold, problem solved , now let's play with amarr online.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Naglfar sold, problem solved , now let's play with amarr online.

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but to sell if you need to find someoen idiotic enough to buy it!

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