[quote=Alticus C Bear] But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.

!1. oh i know you lern more through defeat that victory ive always said that. :P and yeah i can hold my own against a lot of oponents but ide prefer to keep my pvp to a time of my choseing in low or null sec not everyone tom **** and harry trying to gank me when im chilling.

2. trying to fit an active shield tank onto a condor or any frigate is a job and a half i havent however been on sisi recently to cheack out the new ones however im still going with the point of probably cap hungry witch makes them extream diffucult to fit with other cap sucking abilities even with an asb i dont think you would last the reload if in a brawl fight. also as im sure we all know that after a caldaries shield is down there toast unlike an armour tanker were they can still sustain a fair amount of punishment especialy to kinetic missles.

3.as you said the condor is the slowest and the heaviest of the ships witch makes it after getting into point range diffucult to dictate range. and the caldari weapons systems do not increase dmg bassed on an optimal range.

4. again though i find this point and a td to be less of an issue as tds are not a gurante disruption and if they are they are the problem not the caldari ships maybe td's should be called into question and there effectiveness over caldari ships. as close range guns will generate more dps than even rocket launchers. infact the only way i have ever managed to win against a brawler is to pull extream range on it from the start and hopefull put him into half armour before he gets to me again you may disagre but i still stand that unless the caldari ships can fit decent tanks they will be baten 90% of the time by brawlers.

5. however over and above all this i do have to say your missing a big point eve isnt just all about pvp although that may be a big part and the life of a lot in eve its not the be all and end all these ships still have to be usable as mission running ships also.

hope this makes my opinions a lil clearer to you lili lu

I think the Incurses is a fair match for the Merlin but I have to agree on the condor.

I have started seeing number of condors lately, even lost my rail cat to one, tracking disrupters seem very common and almost all Hookbills have one if not two. Proposed kestrel could also end up being very dangerous.

Is it a problem with caldari ships or tracking disrupters, the difference between them and other e-war even the dreaded ECM is that they are useful/crippling even on non e-war bonused ships.

This is another reason why the suggestion in the disruption frigates thread that the non-ecm modules actually should get a little nerf and the specialized non-ecm ships then a larger bonus is a good idea. It worked with ecm. No longer is everyone fitting the multispec of death. It worked with nos as well.

If TDs (and the other non-ecm ewar modules) got a nerf it would lessen the impact of the spare 4th mid fit a TD and you can **** over the other ships in class phenomenon. As long as the specialized ships still gain over current values for that ewar it fixes two problems at once.

Also, they need to get a range cutting effect for TDs as against missiles into the game. It has been proposed by the devs. They actually put a change onto the test server for TDs to affect explosion parameters of missiles. But then pulled it. To me the range advantages of missiles are what really needs addressing and I really don't see why they floated the change they did.

The only thing i could pretend to call a counter to target painters would be an afterbuner.
My reasoning is they double the speed of the ship (+135% velocity) without altering the ships sig radius, that should be sufficient to offset the tp.

!5. The big point of eve is that even if you don't want to pvp you can be prey to those who do ^^ And no not all ships need to be good pve ships, thats just silly.

I would have called the AB the counter to Webs as they both effect speed.

Also, increasing your own speed usually has a detrimental effect on your own tracking (ignor missile boats). Other EWAR counters simply just counter the effect of the EWAR.

[quote=Brunaburh]
Fire that missile loving traitor Jacques Roden!

Do those missile bonus's apply to rockets too or only missiles?

I disagree. The use of EWAR modules on non-EWAR bonused ships should always be an option. They should always be useful to some degree and not be only useful on EWAR ships.

We have counters for (almost) everything in this game. The problem is that some don't really work.

ECM - Counter = ECCM and Remote ECCM. It works. Get over it.

Sensor Damps - Counter = SeBos and Remote SeBos. SD's are too weak at the moment. This is known

Tracking Disruptors - Counter = Tracking Computer & Tracking Links. It pretty much works however TC's and TL's are a little weak.

Target Painters - No real counter

Missiles - Counter = Defenders (lol) which don't work. Either these need to be fixed or we need a new counter. I don't think TD's should be used as a be all and end all module. We need something else like a chaff & flare launcher. If we had a Chaff and Flare launcher that reduced signature radius it would be a counter to target painting. It would also have a slight tracking disruptor effect however it could be easily balanced out or perhaps only effect missiles.

The bottom line is that EWAR should be an option on any ship. Things shouldn't become restricted in this game. The freedom is what we love about this game and the fact that you can, if you want, build an "Armour ECM Drake" (I've seen it used and it works somehow!) you have that option

STILL:
Breacher is tooooooooooooo overpowered. 3/4 missile firepower of a Kestrel PLUS two drones equals more or the same firepower of a Kestrel PLUS ancillary shield booster and shield boost bonus = KILLS EVERYTHING.
That cannot really be serious!!!!!

I suppose CCP had too many whining minnes about the Rifter and now there is the breacher who will replace the old superior Rifter. Breacher is faster than the Kestrel and Tristan, it has more or equal firepower, more cargo and an active tank with ancillary shield booster (plus shield boost amplifier) that will be better than any incursus or vengeance on dope.
WHERE THE HELL IS THIS BALANCE????????

Another joke: any tormentor fit possible that the tormentor doesnt suck in comparison to these three ships???? No? Oh I forgot it is an amarr ship. It has to suck.

can you back up your claims with actual testing?
if not, maybe wait until you can and start screaming at this point. it's all theory atm.
i think everything that can bring some form of alpha will instapop every breacher along its way.

A good fitted cyclone can active tank over 1300 ehp/s and still do some 460dps without needing cap for guns. There are battleships which won-¦t get that thing down and get killed....
Wonder that nobody is whining about that.
Now imagine what a breacher can do with this bonus. It will eat cruisers?

well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids.
how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?

and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell.

well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids.
how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?

and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell.

Well I killed a maelstrom some minutes ago in a fleet with 4 cynabals, 2 vagabonds, one omen and eight frigates. Maelstrom was xasb tanked. It took more than 5 minutes (!!!!!!) with this fleet to get that thing down.
YES Breacher will eat cruisers for breakfast.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14530001 that one?

i'd like to know, which implants he used besides a full crystal set. i guess killing his pod would have been a nice catch ;)
this fittings uses 15,56% more cpu as the ship can provide. and he did not fit overclocking rigs.
i found one possibility to make it happen but the kill shows he did not use it.
but this is hardly something which is normal and a very rare case.

you know, as soon as this changes go onto the testserver, i fit some cruisers and you fit some breachers and we will do some testing.
if you are right, ccp fozzie would be the last one to dismiss evidence from testing. if you are not right, i get to say "told you".