This thread is probably part of the griefing process.

THE APOLOGY

James, I'm sorry.

I understand now, I did not before.

can i get a tl;dr?

Confirming that threads about James315 are started by loonies these days.

Confirming that threads about James315 are started by loonies these days.

That someone posted between parts 5 and 6 is intolerable. Lock the thread, please.

I for one hope James doesnt make CSM, if only for the reason that poses and gameplay outside hi-sec needs a look at. With his bleating clogging up the CSM, other much more worthwhile viewpoints from Eve wouldnt be heard. "Saving hi-sec" can and should wait

What is so good about Bumping a Miner?

What is so good about Bumping a Miner?

What is so good about Bumping a Miner?

What is hilarious is to me is that people are taking this "movement" this serious. Its an incredible troll job honestly.

This whole thing boiled down is just a bunch of goons alts that are bored but also goons trying to impact the ability for some to make isk in high sec to fund low and null sec pvp.

The sheeple that are lining up because they think this is some valiant and honest effort to "save the game" is quite honestly one of the funniest things I have seen in a while in Eve.

Well done Goons, well done

So if I understand well, James fights the carebear who play the sandbox their way who, in turn, fights James for playing the sandbox his way. Is that it?

Thats close except one group doesnt want to play on a level playing field.

The ganking is fine but most of the tears come from the gankers now days because they have to put in more of an investment than 3 days skill training and throw away cheap ships to gank ships that took months to sit in and fly.

Make no mistake, the tears flow from both sides of this argument and the ganker element has been shedding a lot of them lately.

So if I understand well, James fights the carebear who play the sandbox their way who, in turn, fights James for playing the sandbox his way. Is that it?

the person who wrote this suffers from a lack of reading comprehension.

@OP: very nice writeup. i wish every EVE player was able and willing to read and understand it.

no. james fights for the one popular MMO that is still somewhat of a sandbox to not be overrun by carebears and become a space candyand.

I think its a little funny and ironic that the tag line "self entitled" is used so much with these guys. There is no more self entitled group that then mouth breathing pvp types who think anything short of "anarchy" is the death knell for a game.

There are reasonable pvp types, in fact, I think most of the pvpers in Eve understand the need of empire and a well rounded demographic to make Eve what it is and fuel the engine that provides the conflict.

There is a reason many of these mouth breathers have never developed their own MMO.........

They should get rid of high sec.

Then all 70k-100k( thats being generous) of you can run around in a game that would see little to no future development and quickly become a wasteland and forgotten game.


The Ultimate irony in all of this is the same folks who champion the growth of the game over the years fail to correlate that growth to the gradual changes to entice a less harsh "lifestyle" in high sec over the years.

I wish they would take out all safeguards and rule of law in high sec because this forum would be entertaining reading all of these morons cry as the game dies a quick death.

You have no more proof that the growth of the game is exclusively due to highsec players than I do that it's due to nullsec players. Less silly claims, please.

[
Here comes the irony part..... there really should be little doubt about who the self entitled element is in this argument.

murdering carebears

CCP produces the population charts. Its pretty clear to everyone but the head in the sand pvpers.

Lets get honest. What would happen to this game if High Sec would function like low sec?

Ill tell you what would happen, the game would die.

CCP produces the population charts. Its pretty clear to everyone but the head in the sand pvpers.

Lets get honest. What would happen to this game if High Sec would function like low sec?

Ill tell you what would happen, the game would die.

highsec should not function like lowsec. because if it did, it would be lowsec. highsec should function like a starting point for new players to get off their training wheels and not for EVERYONE to stay there indefinitely and suck on glaciers while watching porn.

You mean the people who insist on 'consensual PVP' only?

You're confusing "highsec inhabitant" with "PvP intolerant player". Most players live in highsec because it is competitively advantageous to do so, not because they refuse to take risks. It's that the rewards for taking risks are not there. Players like being rewarded. Change the rewards and risks equally for all and we'll see who stays and who goes.

What we do know is that the "PvE exclusive" crowd, judging by carebear expansions that are considered failures like Incursion and Tyrannis, is a small minority when it comes to CCP's bottom line. Whether it's because they are small in number or because they PLEX all their subs, I can't say, but I can say that nerfing their riskaverse isk farming "playstyle" will not kill EVE.

The "carebear dollar" myth is usually invoked when all other arguments to defend anti-PVP standpoints are exhausted and the anti-EVE arguer has to resort to threatening EVE itself.

CCP produces the population charts. Its pretty clear to everyone but the head in the sand pvpers.

Lets get honest. What would happen to this game if High Sec would function like low sec?

Ill tell you what would happen, the game would die.

highsec should not function like lowsec. because if it did, it would be lowsec. highsec should function like a starting point for new players to get off their training wheels and not for EVERYONE to stay there indefinitely and suck on glaciers while watching porn.

I think he means the folks who are more risk averse then the dude flying missions all day in his faction fit machariel and as such need high sec for easy ganking and a '''lookatmakillboardoWnzorz'' approach of the game ... quite certain he means those people.

So, in other words, you dont like people playing in the sandbox differently that you.

There is a self entitled group in Eve, no doubt about that. Who that group is is very clear.

Kill one carebear: you're a griefer.
Kill a million carebears: you're a savior.
Kill them all: you're a god.

So, in other words, you dont like people playing in the sandbox differently that you.

There is a self entitled group in Eve, no doubt about that. Who that group is is very clear.

i haven't read a single post in this thread, should i be outraged at the carebears or at the evil gankers?

Like I said, CCP isnt stupid. They are not going to cow tow to a minority that wants to limit everyone into playing the game they way they benefits them the most.

Ask yourself this: How much does Eve really punish players now who can't be bothered to think and understand the game? How smart and on your toes do you actually have to be now to survive in the game and make progress?

What the **** does a cow with a trailer hitch have to do with CCP and how people play EVE?

I presume you are referring to the group who demand game mechanic changes that grant them immunity from everyone else in the sandbox.

The gank n bump brigade aren't asking CCP to change the way that others play, they are doing it themselves using the tools that CCP give them. The ones that are whining about the gank n bump brigade are asking CCP to change the way that others do, because they can't be arsed to do it themselves.

There's a big difference in entitlement there.

Here's the short and simple version.

People can play the game anyway the like, people are free to mine, mission run, grind anomalies, etc, what they are not free to do is complain when someone else decides to interfere with them by trying to engage them in PvP, if you don't like how others play, do something other than cry about it. If people want a truly risk free hisec the test server is that way ------->.

There is non consensual pvp in 100% of the game.

There are FAR more tears and calls for changes to the game now coming from gankers than miners. Far more.

Hell, the movement and this very thread wants to change the game.

can i get a tl;dr?

ftfy

ftfy



The difference is that they're not asking CCP to do the change, they're doing it themselves. Some players adapt to the game and environment, others expect the environment and game to change around them. Guess which one is better for the game as a whole?

So we should just get rid of high sec then.

There is non consensual pvp in over 70% of the game. If folks are all about the pvp why are they not flocking to these areas to engage in pvp, after all, thats why everyone is here, right?

False dichotomy.

This isn't even a non-sequiter, because it doesn't even form a coherent statement. Do you even understand what the words 'non consensual' mean?

Yes, they are asking CCP to change. Have you not read this very thread or the platform of John 315? Come on. You're not that dense.

Maybe we're going to get livestock trailers we can hitch to our ships? A place for all the Exotic Dancers, Janitors, Marines and Homeless we've been collecting.
Sounds good.

No. The pvp crazy pants crowd are the ones who have drawn a BS imagined line in the sand differentiating between the two making two groups "with us" and "against us".

Its all hogwash and most everyone falls into a middle ground mixing pvp with high sec activities.

You can dismiss the realities of taking away options and play styles will lead to less revenue all you want but thats a pretty simple and fundamental fact and reality. Each time you take away options the people who operated under those options will leave, at least a significant portion. Its not a myth.

The CSM platform of James 315 is deliberately extreme & controversial, he knows full well that CCP won't implement 99.9% of the things he's basing his platform on, it is designed to provoke a reaction.
In answer to your question, I've read the wall'o'text OP and I agree with it, I'm also well aware of what James 315 does, I've been involved in it for a few months now, even though I disagree with 90% of his CSM platform I'm in total agreement with what the New Order does.

Calling me dense does you no favours whatsoever and is bordering on getting personal, feel free to do so though because quite frankly, I don't give a damn about your opinion of me or my posting.

The false dichotomy is the argument that either you are only a pvper or only a carebear. Thats a conveineint line drawn in the sand by a certain vocal group.

There are FAR more tears and calls for changes to the game now coming from gankers than miners. Far more.

Hell, the movement and this very thread wants to change the game.

Yes, they are asking CCP to change. Have you not read this very thread or the platform of John 315? Come on. You're not that dense.

We have come to the point where "high sec activities" and "PVP" are two mutually exclusive categories. Your words say more then you know. What started as a game with gradiating degrees of risk and reward the further out you went has been reduced to a place where you do 'highsec activities' to get the ISK to PVP (in presumably non-highsec areas).


Of course it's a myth. CCP took away the "grind 140m an hour in highsec incursions' option - where did the thousands of incursion players leave to? Subs went up after Crucible and after a brief spike, went down after Incursion in its broken, risk-free form was released. Why would other advantages like 'wardec immunity for my farming alt' be any different? They aren't, the 'carebear dollar' myth is exactly that, a 'simple and fundamental fact' proven time and again.

the reality as high sec has been slowly morphed into what it is today and correlating that with the steady rise in subscriptions and where that population growth resides in the galaxy. The long term numbers say all that needs to be said.

Actually, the New Order hasn't done much in the way of asking CCP to change anything. The New Order has been making the change all on it's own. Miners begged CCP to stop the Order, CCP said deal with it. We're having fun making other people PLAY the game. If you think for one second that it's inexcusable for us to engage AFK ice miners using the mechanics that they have begged for over the years, I'm not sure what to tell you.

I don't see why everyone rushes to defend characters that the players can't even be assed enough to play but one click an hour, but the OP has given me hope in that some people can learn to read past the satire to see what's going on. As a new player, I can already see how easy it would be to fall into the silk prison of HighSec and never want to leave. Get horrified by the prospect of having to actually play the game, or be made aware that it's not a single player game.

Instead, people want to AFK mine ice with no tank, and cry when someone either bumps them out of mining range or kerplodes their mack.

"Oh noes, an Invincible Stabber bumped me 45 minutes ago and I just now noticed, CCP PLZ HALPS MY ISKS"

And a lack of pirates is causing global warming.

And a lack of pirates is causing global warming.

Wall-o-text taken to a whole new level.
Did not read.

This will be a productive thread.

****, I'll get back to low-sec ASAP...

So, because mining barges and exhumers got a boost to their EHP, CCP is moving EvE in the direction of being a carebear campground themepark?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Eve has never punished players for being stupid, other players punish them for being stupid, and it happens on a daily basis.

Putting a hardcap on the amount of douchebaggery one can inflict (introducing ore holds and buffing barges/exhumers, taking away insurance payout from suicide ganking) was long overdue. I'm all for teaching stupid people lessons the hard way, but allowing crap to go on like can flipping and insurance payouts to concorded ships was dumb and it took way too long for CCP to realize the definition of the word lame and how it was negatively affecting their new player retention. Things like that happen in a sandbox game though.

As for your second question; you don't have to be smart or on your toes to make progress in this game, all you have to do is log in for less than 60 seconds a few times a week.

P.S.

I read all that crap in the hopes you would sum up what James315 grand plan is and save me the agony of reading all of his crap.

Left dissapointed.

Really? You link to the James 315 CSM platform then try and say that you are not about "changing the game mechanics"

Good stuff....

... Subscriptions doing nothing but increase (not counting the incarna fiasco) ...

Well there you have it

James 315's RvB alt.

or you could, ya know, go outside in the yard and pull the legs off spiders.

Drama...conflict....interweb spaceships... lol

Continue..... you amuse me.

The tears from "hard core Pee v Pee players" are far sweeter than any other.

I think you will find many carebears are perfectly happy for pvp to take place consensual or not. it is the douchbaggery that goes on that sticks in the claw.
The thing I find Ironic from the OP is that he is in a corp that is only about consensual pvp. The lamest pvp model ever.

the 'carebear dollar' myth is exactly that, a 'simple and fundamental fact' proven time and again.

Then why has the game consistently moved towards safer and easier?

Read the first post, got disinterested. Boring topic about a boring subject. The end.

See, I thought what you've been doing for 8 months now was an elaborate and brilliantly executed troll on a scale not seen in High Sec before. I was right.

I can't believe someone would be so butthurt over no longer being able to kill miners with no risk at all. What the hell.

I believe that the aggression changes promote pvp in highsec, because now people can shoot you more often, you all want others to experience more risk but when you are the ones that get that risk, you scream like children. Entitled children.

You can still pray on newbs that doesn't know aggresion mechanics, you can till can flip (need a buddy for it though). Mining barges has been easy as hell to gank for way too long and unless they sit in a procurer or skiff, they can still be ganked without too much trouble (they don't fit tank, right?).

To parallel this for you - the criminal flagging system introduced with the latest CrimeWatch update was exactly the same thing Ultima Online did to aggression and thievery mechanics when they changed the notoriety system to be far less forgiving to criminals. The last CrimeWatch update was so similar to the Ultima Online changes way back when that I'm almost certain CCP simply molded them to fit their game. Criminally flagging an aggressor makes him open to attack from everyone, providing a huge deterrent to aggressive behaviors without outright making them impossible.

The suspect flagging system simply requires a little more thinking about how you capture your prey. No longer are you safe just harassing one person. You have to get them to aggress you.

All this focus on harassing miners in hisec and complaining about hisec security mechanics is missing something. Since you raised Trammel in your long, pointless rant, you should pay more attention to why Trammel ruined Ultima Online: the main reason is that everything you could do in Felucca, you could also do in Trammel with no risk.

Let's have a look at EVE Online: can you do everything in hisec that you can do in lowsec or nullsec? No capitals, no bubbles, no reaction labs, no moon harvesting, certain ores are missing. So right there at the base of the economy, hisec is not going to become Trammel. How can you ensure that hisec doesn't devolve into Trammel? Encourage CCP to move all industry into player hands. There should no longer be instant refining of unlimited volumes of materials. There should no longer be copious quantities of manufacturing lines available at NPC facilities.

The Trammel-isation of hisec is not going to happen. Your fears are unfounded. The platform of James 315 is based on untruths.

Because myths hold great power over the human mind.

And carebears are the whiniest motherfuckers on the planet.

congratulations, you managed to produce three whole paragraphs that are completely irrelevant to the topic. i strongly encourage you to read the OP and actually try to understand it.

All this focus on harassing miners in hisec and complaining about hisec security mechanics is missing something. Since you raised Trammel in your long, pointless rant, you should pay more attention to why Trammel ruined Ultima Online: the main reason is that everything you could do in Felucca, you could also do in Trammel with no risk.

I seriously skipped almost the entirety of the OP's posts.

The argument that Trammel killed UO doesn't hold up because of the fact Seige Perilous existed and continue to exists to this day. Anyone who wanted old school PvP could go to Seige Perilous and get their fix.

What killed UO to the most extent was EQ and then WoW.

Actually you can still play UO today if you want to play.

I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.

I totally understand your desire for a risk free game where you can progress unhindered. I tanked the old Burning Crusade instances on my night elf warrior. There's a reason WoW clones make approximately all of the money.

However, what I don't understand is why it's so important to you that you destroy a game I love to get that.

I totally understand your desire for a risk free game where you can progress unhindered. I tanked the old Burning Crusade instances on my night elf warrior. There's a reason WoW clones make approximately all of the money.

However, what I don't understand is why it's so important to you that you destroy a game I love to get that.

People enjoy playing different ways. Why do YOU want to destroy the game for someone else rather than simply focusing on the areas of space in which you operate in? it seems like a simple equation to me: raise the reward of low sec and null sec compared to High sec and leave those who want to toil in High Sec alone. Honestly, when I looked at minerbuming.com all I saw a goonish extortion racket and nothing else.

Seems if you really cared about the game you love you would be pushing for positive changes to null sec and low sec instead of trying to blame everything on changes to high sec.

A lot of folks find it convenient to point fingers towards high sec and forget that the individuals and corps in low and null had a hand it making it the snoozer it is now.

"Blame the carebear!" "Blame high sec!"................all while they log off the forums and return to their safe little carebear homes in null sec counting their monies from their risk free activities.


What they really want is to have their risk free activities to make their isk and turn your part of Eve into their playground.

Hypocrites!?!?! The lot of them.

Also many are misrepresenting my points; Highsec is the focus of James 315's current operations, but I highly advocate buffing the hell out of Lowsec and Null, because as was rightly pointed out several times in this thread there are problems with all of it.

I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.

It's understandable that it looks that way to you, but you are mistaken in a fundamental way: I want to preserve the game's initial values, not destroy them.

I would never log into Tera or WoW and start demanding that the developers change mechanics to favor an unforgiving world where every action carries risk and consequence.

It had a brief spike matched and surpassed by previous PVP UO expansions, then as the 'themepark' aspect began to get old everyone left. Short term gain, long term detriment to the game.

It had a brief spike matched and surpassed by previous PVP UO expansions, then as the 'themepark' aspect began to get old everyone left. Short term gain, long term detriment to the game.

It's understandable that it looks that way to you, but you are mistaken in a fundamental way: I want to preserve the game's initial values, not destroy them.

I would never log into Tera or WoW and start demanding that the developers change mechanics to favor an unforgiving world where every action carries risk and consequence.

Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.

Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.

Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

Truth be told. I made new players quit UO. I would sit in town and find new players (you could tell by their clothing). Give them some gold and tell them you have some more out in the woods. Take them out to your house. Log out and then back in with your murderer dread lord and show them what its like to lose everything in the game.

Sometimes if their ghost was around I'd rez them and then put them down again. COR POR

I was not the only one who did this.

Even though I enjoyed this immensley I completly understood why EA created trammel. They did it because the player base abused and caused new players to quit. Without new subs, there was no way to replace the losses from all the older players who were quitting because they too were being griefed out the game.

In effect, we griefers were to blame of why trammel was created.

In that respect you must understand why CCP must provide safe havens for new and even older players in EvE as they do now. There is no extreme need to expand that, but there is also a very good reason to why CCP should keep the status quo.

The have to keep new players and those who don't enjoy being griefed.

Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.

NPC corp chat is an excellent and reliable source for information on sov nullsec.

Not happy with people being able to make isk afk in space they fought for? go and do something about it. The New Order guys and James 315 aren't happy about people being able to make isk while afk in highsec, which is the area they specifically state they are concentrating on, they are doing something about it, using the very mechanics that the afk isk makers have pushed for in the last few years.

Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

This is where most of you fall off the logic train.

CCP is not making decisions based off of "carebears crying in high sec" they base them of market data,polling, internal demographics all which point them in a development direction that helps them maintain and grow their revenue streams as a business.

Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven

Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

Its really hard to move past this statement and then take you seriously. Sorry, no offense meant.

Let's remove concord, then highsec can enjoy null's level of safety.

Dismiss this all you want to citing mechanics within individual expansions instead of seeing the reality as high sec has been slowly morphed into what it is today and correlating that with the steady rise in subscriptions and where that population growth resides in the galaxy. The long term numbers say all that needs to be said.

Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven, they are not a public company and answer to only themselves. And in any case having more data doesn't guarantee that a company will make the "correct" decisions. History is full of companies and people who had all the answers and still didn't achieve their objectives..

Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

Cool so we can also pretend Incarna was a big success because like you say, subs are greater now then they were in the past.

In recent years Eve has moved away from being a game towards being a spectator sport. This may well be good for revenue, it is however not good for the game.

None taken. You based an argument on unproven suposition, something that I felt compelled to point out.

In any case it is not relevant to the discussion at hand. This is not about CCP, it is about ourselves.

Well at least someone is finally being honest.

This is one of the things at the core of the argument. The big power blocks would love nothing more than to have control over everything or gimp high sec to drive alliances to "rent" space from them in null sec or feed their killboards further increasing their "risk free" income.

Not fooling anyone.
Not about the "future of the game"
Ia about personal and alliance power and wealth.

THE APOLOGY

James, I'm sorry.

I've been seeing numbers as high as 58,000 users online over the past few weekends. Wouldn't you say that is pretty health numbers compared to a few years ago? Say 2009?

It really is amazing since the argument is being made by the ones bluing up all of Null to be safe, really guys that dog won't hunt anymore. Fact is null sucks and why? Because you made it that way by following dear Leaders agenda which we all no has nothing to do with the game and more about putting coin in there pockets. Miner bumping? I mean wtf is that? sounds like something a child with too much time on there hands would do, seriously grow the f**k up

Did you read the part where he claims all of High Sec as his space and how he will issue force whenever he *thinks* your afk or not? I could be taking a **** while mining and he would say I was afk mining. The New Order is an extorsion racket with a cult mentality. I might actually take him somewhat seriously if he didn't demand you pay him money.

I dont care if they are AFK making isk in bunker like null sec. Just dont come and ***** about "risk averse" anything especially in response to income generation. There are HOARDS of players in null alliances who dont know didly about risk since joining their friends or coprs in null sec after their alliances have held sov for a while.

Bored Null Sec alts ganking and griefing high sec under the guise of concern for the future of the game. I doint know whats worse, that you think people really buy into that or if the people white knighting the cause really believe they are "saving eve"

Its so transparent that I can believe some still trot the tired arguments and ad hominems out still.

Good games all have a sense of accomplishment, some risk, puzzles to figure out and the chance to do so in direct competition with other players. Perhaps many of the people who subscribe to Eve are after only entertainment and not a game. But i don't think so.

And if it is true that the people in Eve want a game and not spectator sport then perhaps the lowest common denominator of false achievement and pretty graphics is not the best way to go for anyone. Even if it is the clearest, safest, most agreeable direction.

If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard, unless of course you play on a laptop and take it with you.

If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard, unless of course you play on a laptop and take it with you.



Nowhere in this thread have I mentioned the term "risk averse", and for your information out of all the people I've met while supporting the New Order, very few are null sec alts, I'd go as far as to say that a large number are null and lowsec mains, with the remainder being made up of highsec players, some are highsec gankers by nature, some are highsec miners who are having a laugh removing their competition from the field, while others like myself were bored with highsec and have already lived in wormholes, roamed through lowsec and annoyed the incumbents in null.

I disagree with a lot of James' CSM manifesto, I've said as much both in this thread and on the blog, I personally don't think highsec needs nerfing into the ground, I do however believe that both nullsec and lowsec need a significant buff so that they become viable places to do something other than blob each other or dock up everytime a red appears in local.

There is a reason that so many lowsec and nullsec players have highsec alts to make their isk, all the infrastructure for industry is much more accessible in highsec, mining in highsec is relatively safe if you're actually paying attention, PvE in highsec is also relatively safe if you have even the vaguest understanding of aggression mechanics, the same goes for hauling and pretty much every other activity you can do in highsec.

[off on a tangent]
If, for example, players were given the tools to upgrade the industrial infrastructure in both nullsec and lowsec so that it could compete with highsec in terms of production and cost, maybe by allowing them to increase the amount of research/copy/manufacturing slots available to them via a system control mechanic, while I'm aware that this can already be done using a POS and that there are industry upgrades available for Sov null I'm not au fait with how the null upgrade system actually works and I doubt it includes the kind of upgrades I'm talking about.

If more people start doing highsec type stuff in lowsec and nullsec and CCP allow us, the players, to control certain aspects of it, then they become viable alternatives to having an alt in highsec. The side benefit is that with more players comes greater security, lowsec and NPC null corporations involved in stuff that is currently done in highsec would have to organise their own security services to clean out the current inhabitants that like to prey on them. [/off on a tangent]

If they REALLY cared about the game they would be pushing for sweeping changes to null and sov....but that would really screw with their risk free income,

The idea that one should have to stop the entire game just to take a leak is silly. To be punished for natural body functions is even more so. James wants nothing more than to be a tool and force people to pay him for being one. Now for someone who is off at the grocery store and is afk/bot mining thats a different story. The issue remains James makes no distinction between 'afk I've got to crap' and 'afk I just wanna make money without playing the game'.

If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard

I suspect some that were griefed believe that if highsec becomes Trammel and dies, they couldn't care less and would be quite satisfied that their actions/words contributed to a reverse-gank towards their greifers.

For someone who hates this game after losing a ship, this is a win-win scenario.

Is this why you look so troubled, Jonah? The thought that someone, somewhere, is perched atop their mighty porcelain throne literally dropping bombs while their mining lasers happily buzz away in a room not-quite adjacent to the one said throne occupies? Is it the fact that this hypothetical miner, away from his keyboard, is unfairly earning space cash and depleting resources while not actually playing the game?

Truly, high-sec needs a savior if such acts are common.

lol, the worried look is constipation

...Aggression mechanics were much less punishing....This technique was used to bait players who didn't understand relative strengths of ships and combat mechanics into firing on you, which then awarded you the right to defend yourself....

....the criminal flagging system introduced with the latest CrimeWatch update was exactly the same thing Ultima Online did to aggression and thievery mechanics when they changed the notoriety system to be far less forgiving to criminals....Criminally flagging an aggressor makes him open to attack from everyone, providing a huge deterrent to aggressive behaviors without outright making them impossible. There are many examples of these kinds of nerfs to aggression in Eve's history....

This does seem probable after reading some of the posts in this thread

I suppose you have no troubles with being AFK, then.

I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.

Well obviously some did because some of them left UO and invented a little thing called EVE Online.

And now you are saying they themselves should do exactly the same thing to EVE? UO wasn't enough? The countless mindless MMORPGs that have followed aren't enough? EVE has to be dragged down too?

This is the fundamental problem with you 'carebear types' - you want every game to suit you. Whereas the 'ganker types' want only one game for themselves - the game that was originally intended for them.

Well obviously some did because some of them left UO and invented a little thing called EVE Online.

And now you are saying they themselves should do exactly the same thing to EVE? UO wasn't enough? The countless mindless MMORPGs that have followed aren't enough? EVE has to be dragged down too?

This is the fundamental problem with you 'carebear types' - you want every game to suit you. Whereas the 'ganker types' want only one game for themselves - the game that was originally intended for them.

Then chase your accomplishment. Nothing is stopping you. Why do you get to dictate what is game and just entertainment to others? Maybe scanning down grav sites is personally rewarding, maybe beating some rivals in the station trading game is personally rewarding?

This is mostly an argument of folks looking through very narrow lenses at the situation. Whether that is intentional to manipulate the meta game in their favor or simply because some cant or wont see things through a broader views.

This is where most of you fall off the logic train.

CCP is not making decisions based off of "carebears crying in high sec" they base them of market data,polling, internal demographics all which point them in a development direction that helps them maintain and grow their revenue streams as a business.

Things change. This cycle and argument happens in ALL MMO's on the market.

If they game has grown steadily, and your arguments about the decline of the game because of the steady change to high sec are to be true then on the surface it seems like YOUR ideas and agenda are not necessarily in line with whats best for the growth of the game. Go figure eh?

*****Irony detected****

Well obviously some did because some of them left UO and invented a little thing called EVE Online.

And now you are saying they themselves should do exactly the same thing to EVE? UO wasn't enough? The countless mindless MMORPGs that have followed aren't enough? EVE has to be dragged down too?

This is the fundamental problem with you 'carebear types' - you want every game to suit you. Whereas the 'ganker types' want only one game for themselves - the game that was originally intended for them.

Dear God, the sheer amount of irony in this post is baffling!

So I'm not allowed to want the game to suit me, but it's perfectly fine to want the game to suit you?

Lick my nuts.

Hypocrisy is the word you are looking for. If you are going to mischaracterize my post, at least use the right word.

But, of course, there is nothing hypocritical (or ironic) about it, because nobody is justified in expecting a game aimed at other people to change to suit them, myself included.

To say otherwise is to say that you actually do expect every game made to cater to you.

Dear God, the sheer amount of irony in this post is baffling!

So I'm not allowed to want the game to suit me, but it's perfectly fine to want the game to suit you?

Lick my nuts.

Hypocrisy is the word you are looking for. If you are going to mischaracterize my post, at least use the right word.

But, of course, there is nothing hypocritical (or ironic) about it, because nobody is justified in expecting a game aimed at other people to change to suit them, myself included.

To say otherwise is to say that you actually do expect every game made to cater to you.