Before you ever have an item you can trade it must be built.

If the bulk of an item is built by a group of individuals that can not be wardecced, because they don't play in player run corps, you can't identify them.

If the bulk of T2 production was done in player run corporation, through necessity, you would be able to identify who is building what, and where, then take action against them.

Players need to be in player run corps if they're going to have such a large impact on other players, and industrialist by there very nature are impacting every person in EVE; more so other industrrialists.

From an anecdotal perspective, Hi-sec seems plenty busy in each system I go to ranging from 10-100 persons. Whereas, when I troll through null-sec, most systems other than the bubble camp have no or only one or two person in it.

It would be nice if CCP had some hard numbers showing the population numbers.

[quote=Natsett Amuinn]Before you ever have an item you can trade it must be built.

If the bulk of an item is built by a group of individuals that can not be wardecced, because they don't play in player run corps, you can't identify them.

If the bulk of T2 production was done in player run corporation, through necessity, you would be able to identify who is building what, and where, then take action against them.

Players need to be in player run corps if they're going to have such a large impact on other players, and industrialist by there very nature are impacting every person in EVE; more so other industrrialists.

The problem about giving more of an advantage to nullsec to balance things out means putting more power into the hands of small groups of individuals in charge of the alliances who dictate who may or who may not use the resources in null.

This is a clear cut advantage that Null has over hi-sec which I believe balances it out.

People in hi-sec do not get to control who produces what or who gathers what resources.

Null sec alliances usually do not allow people who they do not approve of to mine their belts and use their manufacturing resources.

In that regard, Null sec industry is controlled by the alliance systems in place. This is power enough. You do not want to punish people that are in small corps for not being in a major alliance.

People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient

See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage

The problem about giving more of an advantage to nullsec to balance things out means putting more power into the hands of small groups of individuals in charge of the alliances who dictate who may or who may not use the resources in null.

Industry is not controlled by a "small group of individuals".

Having an industrial advantage in null does not benefit the corp holders, it benefits the industrialists.

This depiction of resource control is wrong.

Since we are quoting dev blogs from 2011, I was quite struck by the following relevant quote from this particular dev blog;



Since CCP Greyscale has already stated existing local resources have not encouraged null sec trade, if null sec industry recieves a buff, won't all the manufactured goods / harvested minerals be shipped to Jita too?

It does make me wonder if all this "nerf hi sec" talk isn't just Macanis' Law in action?

So if I wanted to come to null without joining your alliance, you'd let me mine your asteroids and setup a POS to make stuff?

This might be a stealth "Invite me to goons" post.

You're using an invalid arguement.

Null doesn't work that way. EVERYONE being able to come to null and mine has no bearing on balance.

And PoS's do not serve the same role in null as they do in high sec.



You should join a null corp, then go to null and do industry for a few months.

If Null threw open their arms to my style of gameplay, then sure. Maybe it would be reasonable.

No.
To say it without putting words in my mouth, I can make a fair estimate based on the numbers we have and it does not yield the result that the Gǣhighsec ++ber allesGǥ militia wishes it wereGǪ

GǪwhich is far better than wilfully mislabelling numbers as something they explicitly are not GÇö a tactic said militia usually favours.

Well, to sum up Tippia, I'M not. I'm not trying to push for something that obviously goes against CCP's agenda (See Ruby's link if need clarification!).

If I want to endeavor to make money in a specific career, I'm going to the area that can support it the best. If trading or mining, then highsec. If I want to rat/anom, then null. I'm not going to try to insinuate that CCP should make things governed by player markets or logistics be a step stool for talking about how "broken" something is. It's the players' fault that things are expensive to freight, as explained to me multiple times in multiple threads concerning null.

Since I do not have complaints as to how I do things, and can be successful at it... I guess I'll be happy being "wrong".

Better to be poor and ship rich and have fun than to be rich and lazy and pissed off.

Since we are quoting dev blogs from 2011, I was quite struck by the following relevant quote from this particular dev blog;



Since CCP Greyscale has already stated existing local resources have not encouraged null sec trade, if null sec industry recieves a buff, won't all the manufactured goods / harvested minerals be shipped to Jita too?

It does make me wonder if all this "nerf hi sec" talk isn't just Macanis' Law in action?

Anybody who thinks that there is any way short of making the game unplayable by anyone to break the pattern of having a main trade hub somewhere in the safest space available and starts making suggestions that involve that not being the case really doesn't have a good grasp of the problem space.

Good thing nobody suggested that. Perhaps while we're taking econ and sociology, you can take a basic reading course?

Good thing nobody suggested that. Perhaps while we're taking econ and sociology, you can take a basic reading course?

I'm pretty sure it was implied. There were a few posts complaining of the cost of moving things to Jita.

Again, wouldn't ever say nobody with these things because some people do suggest stuff like that and have in this topic, as silly as it is. Now granted he'd be wrong if he assumed it was most or something along those lines, but no... these silly ideas pop up a lot, and then cause reactions like yours from people who didn't notice it, and I'm noticing that's where half the arguing comes from on these forums.. hell, sometimes its on purpose because a person wants to troll and see this happen.

Terrible post, but par for the course for you.

You have a valid point about the lack of completely unified perspectives, but I challenge you to find a quote where someone argues that trade hubs should no longer be in hisec.

I still say it's impossible to accomplish what the nullsec people want out of the game by nerfing highsec, and that anybody who thinks it is needs to take a couple actual courses in economics and sociology so they understand what's going on better than they seem to.

Let's start with the most obvious and trivial point:
CCP didn't create trade hubs. CCP didn't decide that Jita was going to be the main trade hub and set things up so that it would happen. If I recall correctly the main trade hub used to be in a system that's now a lowsec system (before my time, I can look it up if people think it's important that I know the details).

Anybody who thinks that there is any way short of making the game unplayable by anyone to break the pattern of having a main trade hub somewhere in the safest space available and starts making suggestions that involve that not being the case really doesn't have a good grasp of the problem space.

I'm pretty sure it was implied. There were a few posts complaining of the cost of moving things to Jita.

Because being competitive means that, after taking all of the costs into account, Nullsec manuacturers should be able to make the same Economic profit by selling its wares (or at least some subset of wares) in Jita (because you can't "fix" Jita without some really silly changes) as HS manufacturers.

The cost of delivering your goods to market is definitely a cost that any firm has to take into account. That's why we're talking about Jita. Not because we want to get rid of Jita.

How about a kind of structured seige system in high sec?
I'm thinking along the lines of Lineage 2 castle seiges. Allow one corporation to effectively "schedule" an engagement with another corp over whatever control of whatever the station provides. Winner gets whatever control the station offers for a week or so, and then it becomes vulnerable again.

Because being competitive means that, after taking all of the costs into account, Nullsec manuacturers should be able to make the same Economic profit by selling its wares (or at least some subset of wares) in Jita (because you can't "fix" Jita without some really silly changes) as HS manufacturers.

The cost of delivering your goods to market is definitely a cost that any firm has to take into account. That's why we're talking about Jita. Not because we want to get rid of Jita.