Abaddon is similar (cap-wise) and hardly obsolete or unused so what do you base the statement on? Sure the hoops we have to jump through to make it/them work could, nay should, be far fewer but the hull itself is about as good as it gets .. rest should come from laser cap reduction as discussed in the other thread as that doubles as a boost to Abaddon.

But Tachyons can change their optimal in a finger snap, while Rails need a whole 10 seconds to reload.

Perhaps some sort of boost to Cap Rechargers? Has the advantage of not affecting PvP (the overwhelming reason CCP provides for everything they've been doing the past year), yet helping Laser and Hybrid turret users as well as armor repper users for PvE in reducing the overwhelming slot cost involved in making these ships capable of the sustained fire required for serious missioning.

So your solution is to make another weapon completely useless to restore balance ? Balance is only when all amarr weapon work anyway right ?

But are those actually conducted at sniper ranges (150km+) or are they used so that high damage ammo can be used at greater ranges, Rohk was ruthless back before probe changes as the max range was so great that they outdamaged most other systems simply by being able to use 'better' ammo.
Alpha fleet engagement ranges are dictated by artillery tracking so the range they use should not be included in discussion if you ask me.

MJD and Probes has killed sniping dead.

And tachyons can only do EM and Thermal damage, which is naturally tanked against with all armor values. It's also part of the ONLY weapon system which is limited on the types of damage it can do.

And they require far more powergrid than their artillery counterpart.

And they use far more capacitor per second then their hybrid counterparts.



Individually, these aren't really that bad. But when you combine them on a ship that has almost the same powergrid as that artillery-fit vessals, and almost the same capacitor as those hybrid-fit vessels, with a ship class that is still running cap-intensive mods just like all the others.

The whole picture of the weapon system and it's preferred ship classes (taking in the Oracle as well) is where you see the flaw. Individual components aren't bad. The whole thing taken together is broken.

No. You're the only one who thinks that making tachyons viable will ruin railguns. It won't.
I happen to be a fan of large railguns. I'd also like to be able to use beam lasers, because they're pretty cool too. As it is now there's no reason to use them. That's not balance. Why are you fighting against balance?

Yeah, blind faith is stronger than arguments I guess. I showed arguments already.

Who's the one with blind faith? I'm saying that tachyons should be rebalanced so that they're actually useful. You're arguing against making weapons useful because you believe that they'll completely obsolete another weapons system even after being shown that they would still have disadvantages, namely significantly higher cap use, significantly higher PG use even with what it would have after a rebalancing, less range, and a damage profile that's fairly useless against the current alpha Loki FOTM with its 95% EM resists.

Yes, significantly higher cap use. You seem to enjoy throwing around numbers like 20% more damage, 30% more tracking to show that Tachyons are OP, but you seem to be ignoring the whole 280% more cap use thing.

I'm not whiing about gallente

it happen that gallente were, until a year ago, in a far worse place than amarr ever was

the Hyperion can barely fit 425mm railguns

... have 30% more tracking than 425mm railguns

You can't buff the LR dps of beams without killing railguns

tachyon would be a problem if they were as easy as railguns

Tachyon already are better than railguns

Removing these drawbacks imply the obsolescence of railguns

making them actually better than railguns

The LR Rokh and Naga are an alternative, allowed by the buff of railguns

The solution is either to buff ALL LR turrets (or you make imbalances)

If you make a ship good at something, another ship won't be good anymore at this thing

Ok, so buff tachyon fitting and cap use, but give railguns 30% more damage and 20% more tacking, so they still have a reason to exists ?

Thank you for conclusively demonstrating that you don't actually understand how balance works.

Serious missioning in a T1 ship ? Seriously ?

What. the. hell. So, if Amarr ships finally get cap stability, this somehow makes a ton of other ship unviable? Seriously, are you high? No, it means that they are BALANCED! That's what balance means! It means that disparate ships can have an equal shot at a significant amount of things. Not that each ship is supposed to have one role and one role only-if you don't like it go get another ship.

I'm talking about gallente and railguns because beams and amarr are their direct contender, you ****** ! Make links between things please.

That is homogenisation : when all things are equal everywhere with different colors. That's not balance.

Oh, because completely ignoring how weapons will interact between themselves is proof of understanding of balance ?

I did. You told me you weren't whining about gallente. I showed how you have been doing nothing but whining about gallente since you even said that. And earlier I made a link between everything else you had said, and how it was simply an indirect way of trying to make sure railguns stay usable, by keeping down their direct contender, as you put it.

Once again, your conflict of interest is showing, tuck it back in.

And your direct contender also includes arty, which I notice you have made it a point to not discuss. :)

I'm talking about gallente and railguns because beams and amarr are their direct contender, you ****** ! Make links between things please.

Arties are not a contender, because arties have alpha, which make completely different from both railguns and beams...

This discussion is pointless. You don't have any clue.

Yes, I know, beams use a lot of cap and that's unfair, cry more please.

I didn't thought it could be possible, but you are even worse than caldari pilots when the drake was nerfed.

This discussion is pointless. You don't have any clue.

Yes, I know, beams use a lot of cap and that's unfair, cry more please.

I didn't thought it could be possible, but you are even worse than caldari pilots when the drake was nerfed.

This discussion is pointless. You don't have any clue.

Yes, I know, beams use a lot of cap and that's unfair, cry more please.

I didn't thought it could be possible, but you are even worse than caldari pilots when the drake was nerfed.

So I take it you concede then, since you're not offering any more arguments?

When was he offering arguments in the first place? Rhetorical whining is not an argument, that is an appeal to an emotional response rather than a logical one.

Maybe the argument he just made in the energy turrets thread, where he said we have nothing to complain about because the new Geddon (you know, the droneboat ) will be cap stable.

Or about the part where if Tachyons get any better, then railguns will be useless forever and always.

Nope, none of those are arguments, he's just trolling.

As someone who's trying to view opinions here, are you saying that there is no imbalance between beams and their use on the new ships, and that if we were to make them use less cap or have lower fitting requirements, this would somehow unbalance the relationship between Amarr battleships and Gallente battleships?

Isn't it 10% per gun? I think that's significant cap reduction.

That still just equates to a 10% hull bonus, as it applies equally to however many turrets you fit. The apoc at BS V had a 50% total reduction. However, someone earlier did do the math and came up with the number by which the Apoc essentially lost for cap regen needed to offset that, and CCP Rise did indeed change the cap regen on the hull to match that number after double checking it. So that, in essense, the new Apoc will have with the new pulse turrets 10% less cap draw.

The concern with all this, obviously, isn't for PvP. any PvP boat that wants cap uses boosters.

The concern is with all those that in one way or another farm rats (isk, standings, LP, reason why they do the farming doesn't matter), as obviously extended cap life is a requirement for any ship at a minimum to sustain tank.

But only Amarr and Gallente (despite the various racial BS having similar cap recharge) have to try to actively tank for PvE, but also run weapons that draw a lot of cap. (Yes, Hybrids use less cap per cycle, however, they do cycle faster).

I think what CCP should consider, as I believe I've stated previously, is perhaps giving the Cap Recharger a sweep with the "rebalancing" broom. This mod is, obviously, practically never used in PvP, since nuets would still counter it effectively, and it provides no worthwhile protection from them (unlike cap batteries, which while providing worthy protection from nuets, still provide some cap regen, the combination of which makes them a notable option for either PvP or PvE), and is thus pretty much entirely restricted to PvE use.