If you're fitting tach's then you most certainly have PG mods, full rack of Tach II's takes 102% of the PG even with the new changes the last I checked.

Why is that, from just the little I've stated?

The Rohk isn't giving up as much as the Abaddon for a decent fitting, relative cap life, and an MWD.

Here (your comment) is why I'm asking for comparable fits. I don't think you are unintelligent commentors thus I'm almost certain that either there is something I am missing. I'm not using fitting mods, so in the end my limits on MY fits seem to be cap and speed. How much does the 100m/s under MWD matter? How constant is the full cap draw (how long is the MWD running)? Also, again, where should the Rokhs domain, as a definitively range focused ship, end and the Abaddon's begin?

I stated megabeam, not Tach. Though if tach were able to fit in the same fitting the Abaddon would have a great DPS advantage out to ~130km taking T2 ammo into account.

To focus more specifically on your comments, the Rokh has an easier time running it's MWD while firing at base then the Abaddon, so it can maintain range control much easier, thus allowing it to more easily dictate the terms of the engagement.

Not really fair to compare 425 II's and Megabeam II's since megabeam's are a step down from tach's while the 425 II's are the top rail. Fitting wise they're near the same as 425 II's, a full rack of 8 takes 88% of the PG on both hulls but the megabeams use triple the cap. So like someone else said, you'd better have remote cap or you'd be filling out your mid's with cap boosters and forget about the MWD running or active tank, while the Rokh wouldn't have to nearly as much, giving it the advantage as someone else mentioned.

Theory crafting using modified EFT files seems to allow megabeam (originally put megapules here, total failure on my part) usage on a 120k EHP fit with meta MWD.

I stated megabeam, not Tach. Though if tach were able to fit in the same fitting the Abaddon would have a great DPS advantage out to ~130km taking T2 ammo into account.

That seems to pose more of the question upon whether crystal breaking should be the limiting point of lasers when not under cap warfare rather than cap in the short term. If cap is to be a limiting factor than the Abaddon will always have the issue of ease running both MWD and guns (perhaps thus is the focal point of contention?). And the Rokh already has the range setting advantage due to the wonderful virtues of armor tanking and its effect on mobility.

Not really, Aurora is EM/Therm 20/12. The equiv for the Rokh would be Spikes which is Kin/Therm 16/16. The rokh has the range advantage with 194+30 (213dps) vs 108+20 (281dps). Assumig that the Rokhs pulled away from the Abaddons the abaddons have a 9ms advantage with both fitting meta IV MWDs.

Not sure on tank fits since I don't have the one for your Abaddon and a Current Rokh. Also this comparison is silly since this doesn't take into account fleet compositions and relies on the Abaddon and the Rokh to both be able to hit each other reliably. Also it probably relies on the abaddon having and entire hold of cap booster charges or being fed all the energy it needs since even with just beams and the MWD running you only have a time to cap out of less than 1min 30s (number is napkin since live with this would be 1min 3s and I can't be bothered factoring in the -10% cap reduction).

we might have to see about just gathering up some people for both sides and put it to a real test on Duality to seriously settle it.

[quote=Avald Midular]
As to the cap, same as before. Is something supposed to limit indefinite laser usage like ammo supplies and reload do for other turrets? I think CCP is using cap for that.

Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).

Not disagreeing, but when I try to think about why cap use is so high that is the only "real" reason I can think of.

Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).

That seems to pose more of the question upon whether crystal breaking should be the limiting point of lasers when not under cap warfare rather than cap in the short term. If cap is to be a limiting factor than the Abaddon will always have the issue of ease running both MWD and guns (perhaps thus is the focal point of contention?). And the Rokh already has the range setting advantage due to the wonderful virtues of armor tanking and its effect on mobility.

I'm going to assume that this Abaddon you have cooked up is as follows (do correct me if I am wrong)

8x Mega Beam Laser II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II
x
x
Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plate II
3x Heat Sink II

I will leave the mid slots open as you haven't stated them. I have included a DCUII but you could also have a meta IV there. I have put in EANMIIs since I am assuming a fleet build that isn't prepared against a known fleet so you won't be taking your chances with setting up specific resists. I am assuming Medium Cap booster II since there is room for it since I don't know the other mids, otherwise it will be a metaIV.

So, two tracking comps or two sensor boosters or one of each?

lol, good thing i got both of those mentioned skills to LV 5, start out as ANY other race and THEN spec into ammar seems like the only way to do it so you're not twiddling your thumbs for 6 months waiting to finnally fit a decent CRUISER fit.


EDIT: oh right, i took a 5 month break, i'm STILL twiddling my thumbs......

Lies.. or at least exageration. In 6 months you can have a reasonably good Battleship pilto specialzied for ammar.

And do not complain of skill intensiveness. Minmatar stil required more skilling than any other race. YOu eee armor skills, Projectiles, missiles, everything.

First of all don't get this wrong. I know the cap usage on those tach beams are really a big PITA. You get extra damage to compensate for it but it is still a big pain. I just found an alternative way to use that extra firepower to get rid of cap problems. It will be possible in odyssey but not in current version.

[Abaddon, Buddy]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Large Energy Transfer Array II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Have an abaddon buddy and stick close to him. You'll still do very decent damage and will not have as much cap issues.

Now...if you want to have a full rack of tachs AND abaddon class tank AND have no cap issues, you are asking to have something so overpowered that will obsolote all other LR ships for fleet combat.

Without CCC's in the rigs, you're going to have cap problems.

That setup runs as long as you have navy cap booster 400's (which lasts around 11 minute considering a full cargobay and no cap transfer from other capitals/guadians.)

Tachs are doing around 10% more damage then nearest LR weapon (which is mega beam). Using 8 megabeams also brings cap issues. By using 7 tachs you ease up the powergrid and cap transfer helps to run them longer. It also has very good EHP.

Alternatively you can go megabeams and use a t2 cap usage rig. You get good damage, less cap problem but sacrifice EHP

Or you can go full tach use a single pg rig to deal very high damage but sacrifice EHP and have cap issues.

It is always a trade off. If you can fit a full rack of tachs, get a great EHP and have low cap issues, then there is nothing to tradeoff.

Still...I believe the cap issue problems lie with the guns and modules not the ships. A solution would be making heatsinks bonus a bundled 20% to damage. Absence of RoF bonus would result in a more decent cap life. Although it would result in slighly (less then %1) reduction in dps, the alpha factor more than makes up for it.

Still...I believe the cap issue problems lie with the guns and modules not the ships. A solution would be making heatsinks bonus a bundled 20% to damage. Absence of RoF bonus would result in a more decent cap life. Although it would result in slighly (less then %1) reduction in dps, the alpha factor more than makes up for it.