If anyone suggests fitting mods, go and sit in a corner and reflect on your badness.

CNR
The CNR has lost its way. In PVP it's completely outclassed by the Scorp Navy, Typhoon, and Typhoon Fleet and in PVE it's outclassed by the Typhoon Fleet and Golem. The loss of the utility high was pretty bad, but even giving that back isn't going to make a dent in the Fleet Phoon's superiority.

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application.

CCP if you want to change the Cruise Missiles and the CNR you should consider following:



For small targets I have drones. Everythinig, starting with cruiser and all above, is already no problem for cruise missiles yet.
The bonus of Rate Of Fire is more important for BIG targets like Battleships than an explosion radius.
You can change something on the ammunition.. right. But please let the Rate Of Fire Bonus of the CNR as it is. In addition to that you do not need to change the slot layout for the High-Section of the CNR.



This is not necessary but counterproductive. We have drones for small and fast moving targets. You should not shoot CM against frigates, WHAT certainly do function already now. SO please keep the slot-layout and the bonus (RoF) of the CNR as it is. Changing the ammunition is enough.
Thanks.

I'm a bit confused about the CNR, it says that it will have 8 launcher slots but on SiSi is still 7. Or the changes are not implemented on the test server yet?

Some fo you say that there is no use to use missiles on anything under BS's, there are drones for a reason. Well, a bomber would say that is not true by removing all my drones from the combat scene loling at my missiles.

The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.

The overwhelming DPS difference is (1.375/1.333) =%3.1
I think the exp radius bonus (which is also a 1/0.75=1.333 magnitude bonus) is far superior to this.
Also you can fit more BCU's to a CNR. 4 BCU's on fleet phoon = no place for armor tank and using 5 meds for shield tank = no place for target painter(s).

Fleet phoon also has quite low PG so I don't really think it can replace TFI as a projectile boat. Maybe the XLASB fits might work in fleet phoon's favor due to high CPU but that's it.

Speaking of CPU, CNR needs a CPU boost.

Fleet Phoon
This ship is superior to the CNR for the same reason that the old CNR was superior to the old Golem - the extra raw damage output overwhelms the superior damage application. However, this relationship isn't just in PVE - it's also in PVP. The Fleet Phoon is just better than the CNR. It is also just better than the Fleet Pest.-Liang

Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

Discounting the full flight of sentries?

Phoon: 8.25 effective launchers
CNR: 8 effective launchers

The CNR has two damage application bonuses; missile velocity and explosion radius.

I don't think that "overwhelm" is the appropriate verb for doing 33/32 = 3.12% more raw DPS.

In fact I'm going to go right ahead and say that the CNR (and ipso facto the Golem) is a significantly superior missile platform to the Fleet Phoon.

Mmm I'm looking at my CNR, and I will be able to add an extra CML II launcher in without using implants/mods. It's tight though, and I'm using a Large booster, not an XL.

I have also raised the issue of torp launcher fitting costs with CCP Rise and he agreed that they're out of synch with the way that SR/LR turret fittings work. Whether this will translate into a change in the immediate future will be for him to tell us.

One of my pet peeves about missiles is that there are no low-tier options to enable fitting compromises.

How about you look at the ships as a whole, now that you finally admit that TFI does more missile dps then look at it's drone bay, those 2 free highslots which you know, are projectile bonused.

With the ships fitted the TFI will overwhelm the CNR in dps.

TEMPEST FLEET ISSUE
The Tempest Fleet Issue is becoming MinmatarGÇÖs GÇÿcombatGÇÖ battleship, and as a result will move more solidly into a role that it already takes on as a very strong projectile platform with an armor base GÇô something that is difficult to find elsewhere. The Tempest, as always, wants to occupy a space between attack and combat, and therefor has unusually high speed and unusually low sig for its role.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 17500 PWG(+450), 580 CPU(+3)
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 10200(+884) / 10800(+369) / 9000(-961)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate): 5500(+187.5) / 1150s(-4.875s)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130(-2) / .115(+.007) / 103300000 / 16.47s(+1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 74km(+11.5km) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Ladar Sensor Strength(+.25)
Signature radius: 350(+10)

I have also raised the issue of torp launcher fitting costs with CCP Rise and he agreed that they're out of synch with the way that SR/LR turret fittings work. Whether this will translate into a change in the immediate future will be for him to tell us.

One of my pet peeves about missiles is that there are no low-tier options to enable fitting compromises.

How about you look at the ships as a whole, now that you finally admit that TFI does more missile dps then look at it's drone bay, those 2 free highslots which you know, are projectile bonused.

With the ships fitted the TFI will overwhelm the CNR in dps.

Discounting the full flight of sentries?

Cheers! At least there is hope :)
Could you more elaborate on the second paragraph? Malkuth launchers require less CPU and meta 3 are a lot cheaper than arbalests.

Also im not convinced at all with the tempest. Even his description is not fitting with the reality (Im referring to his "unsual speed and agility")

Also im not convinced at all with the tempest. Even his description is not fitting with the reality (Im referring to his "unsual speed and agility")

I specifically said "missile platform".

Those are meta, not tier.



Say you're fitting your Megathron and you discover that you just can't get your fit to work with 7x 450mm II Rails. You have the option to drop to 350mm II Rails, losing some range, and gaining some tracking by fitting lower tier guns with reduced fitting requirements.


If you're fitting Torp launchers to your Raven, and you just can't get 6 to fit with the rest of your mods, then you have to drop one launcher, losing 1/6th of your primary DPS with no gain in any other attribute. There are no "low tier" launcher options that have a penalty to missile velocity but better explosion radius or more damage and less RoF, in return for reduced fitting costs.

So we should all just discredit half of the ship so that the argument supports your initial statement?

Come now dude... Lets be objective...

You're ignoring 2 turret/nuets slots as well as a full sized drone bay which can very easily be used for sentries in missions/pvp or other drones (like 5 heavies) in smaller scale closer range pvp.

I see, those are somewhat valid points, but probably counterbalanced by facts that you don't have to train for T2 stuff in sequence from smaller ones?