fixed



#1 you cannot seperate the Ship from it's primary weapon any more than you can sperate a Nightmare from Tachyons (apologies to you Pulsemare wackos).

#2, no, a typhoon hull can't do some of the things a CNR can do because you need a serious shiled tank to do it

#3. as has been pointed out, you're looking in the wrong direction, the Phoons might need looking at, the CNR is imo (and apprently in CCPs opinion so far) perfectly ok.

Seriously, i'd have thought you were better than that, before now I had a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the game.

I'm an individual Liang and you know that, yet you so little confidence in what your saying you have to lump me with others and pretend that words aren't even mine somehow apply to me? When, exactly, did i say anything concerning torps being awesome for the new CNR?

Bloody incredible.

Seriously, i'd have thought you were better than that, before now I had a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the game.

I'm an individual Liang and you know that, yet you so little confidence in what your saying you have to lump me with others and pretend that words aren't even mine somehow apply to me? When, exactly, did i say anything concerning torps being awesome for the new CNR?

Bloody incredible.

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#1 you cannot seperate the Ship from it's primary weapon any more than you can sperate a Nightmare from Tachyons (apologies to you Pulsemare wackos).

#2, no, a typhoon hull can't do some of the things a CNR can do because you need a serious shiled tank to do it

#3. as has been pointed out, you're looking in the wrong direction, the Phoons might need looking at, the CNR is imo (and apprently in CCPs opinion so far) perfectly ok.

...

Ngeddon:There were some concerns about huge sig and weird drone bay but it was adressed. Posters are mostly OK with it as it was already in a good spot.

Nthron: Posters are concerned that it is too close to t1 performance wise.

After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

cause it is matar and we all know ccp are so biased they cant make matar balanced just op
fleet typhoon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cnr

****** balance

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

CNR is going to be the "easymode" ship, where the pilot has to make the least effort and needs the fewest SP to apply this DPS

This why...

This why...

hardmode?
so a smaller faster ship with utility highs and more drones is hard mode? how? I realy cant see why using a better ship cosidered hardmode
piloting skill wth?

when did sp need started to be part of balance between same class of ships?
so if i have all the sp the typhoon should just outperform cnr?that so dumb
tell me how much more sp needed by the typhoon? huh?

After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

Apparently anything more than spamming F1 (for example spamming F1, F2 and F3 at once) is considered "hardmode" by ccp. And since all caldari trained capsuleers are carebears and noobs that dont have skills to spam 3 function keys at once, they get "easymode" ships.

If you want to fly ship where piloting skill counts, you should train minmatar.

he meant hardmode as in fleet typhoon require more charcter skillpoints.

Fleet Phoon is the "hardmode" ship, where piloting skill and fitting ability will count. The ship is able to apply higher theoretical DPS, but you'll need to work for it, and have a lot of SP invested too.

After 60+ pages still can't understand why Typhoon FI have so enormously huge bonus.
Why 7.5%? Even with 5% it will outperform any other T1/navy (and maybe even any T2) turret or missile BS.

First where im defending CNR???I just wrote example how this changes apply to setup like this.
What im doing its defending My Choice of Ship and his setup
Maybe some ships and setups are much much better and less expensive but im using what i like
Second where you see in my setup Officer Modules?All i can see its a deadspace
Next Time i will use t2 modules for comparing so that will be easier for you

In the End im loosing 15% explosion velocity Bonus from Rig,0.42 sRof and almost 12m sig radious from changes
Thats Nothing with that amount of boosted DPS

Summary of the last 60 pages:

Stuff, including:

CNR:
Posters believe that losing the damage is not worth the gained application bonus and caused it to lose its roles.

Edit: Posters seem to unanimously agree that CNR needs more CPU.

Want to know what is bloody incredible? The fact that not only Liang but others have posted the math and shown the inferior numbers of the CNR and you still are the only hold out on thinking the ship is fine.

You act like my brother in this way. He will argue against someone and disagree with them just for arguments sake, knowing full well he is in the wrong after being showed evidence that he was wrong.
At this point, its like you are just doing it just because you can.

The T1 Raven and SNI pretty much match the CNR only the SNI actually gets a more powerful tank. Why use the CNR which was the torpedo doom ship and would have been the cruise ship of doom as well when you can get the same performance out of the 200 mil Raven, well aside from the marginally more powerful tank.

Yet why bother with any of that when you can use a T1 Phoon and pretty much match the DPS output of the CNR and be superior to the raven or you can drop some isk and buy the Floon and have a ship that makes all other obsolete including the Minnie T2 BS..


Edit-
The CNR only gets 500 more hull while the Floon gets faster speed and a battlecruise sig radius....Gee, wonder whos tanking better as well.....

Is this you freely admitting that the torp CNR is a pile of **** and the explo radius bonus does not in fact make up for the nerfed damage?

-Liang

A few comments:
- Context matters, and this is why your "fix" is just ********. See, the problem with the CNR is that it's simultaneously outperformed in literally every possible way by the TFI, and occasionally by the Typhoon. If you're willing to put the time and effort into painters, the SNI frequently out performs it as well (though obviously not in the speed/sig area).
- Yes, I agree you can't separate the weapon from the ship. However, that's not what I was talking about - and you should know this. You should know that I was referring to the fact that cruise is on many ships, and those ships obsolete the CNR when fit with cruise. And with torps, but we all knew that.
- Your logic about the CNR being fine in CCP's eyes doesn't hold a lot of water, because obviously the Phoons are fine in CCP's eyes too.

I do love the shifting goalposts though. It's fantastic to see you go from "No the CNR is amazing and ur just a scrub" to "Ok, so maybe [ insert every ship ever ] is OP".

-Liang

Ed: I am curious what those things that the CNR is good at because it requires a serious shield tank to do. :)

Because you have no secondary bonus.

There is no falloff bonuses, no range/explosion radius/explosion velocity/optimal/missile velocity/tracking bonus.

Just 2 bonuses that you can't use at the same time (not reliably at least).

This is why it got 2 7.5% bonuses.

Except the fact that it can't be AC fitted, the Fleet Typhoon is alright

"No secondary bonus" GÇô this isn't an argument at all.
For example, you can take off all two CNR current bonuses and give only that one - +7.5% damage. And CNR will be OP with only one bonus (but lol, it still have less dps than Typhoon FI).

I really want to see some fits where FPhoon completely obsolotes other ships. It is a hard to fit ship.

People claiming Fphoon having higher DPS than competition should try to make a meaningful fit to it. More than 2 BCS on lows nerfs its armor tank. If you are shield tanking it and filling lows you'll get CPU and damage application issues.

Caldari ship however have med slots to mount a shield tank and lows to increase their dps even further. When you complete your fit you realize the drones difference is covered by the two additional BCU's in lows.