Why are you poor, and why are you wearing +4s to PvP in if you are poor?

its called limited time to play or IRL things to do.

I do see every ones point about haveing 100mil sp and not haveing isk but my point is not about my personal income but the cost of clones for older players being more of a punishment for playing a long time than a reward.

Adding reduced clone costs based on faction standing for example would help.

punishment

Why not just get rid of clone cost? It doesn't really add to the game it just hinders people from doing anything risky if they don't have their clone updated.

They have kinda responded to this I guess by lowering the costs of clones on Sisi.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235781

I posted about it in there. It's about 30% decrease in all medical clone costs.

They have kinda responded to this I guess by lowering the costs of clones on Sisi.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235781

I posted about it in there. It's about 30% decrease in all medical clone costs.

As you may of guessed by the topic im one of those old vets well passed 100 million sp ( not sure if i should laugth or cry ) any way i like to pvp how ever im not all that well off isk wise half of the problem being my clone costing more than my ship does half the time .

With the next expansion adding more free sp my clones will most likely be costing 45 million each and even more for players even older than me. i have the skills to fly the ships i want but it hardly seems worth it when one dicter bouble equels im f**ked

With full set of implants +4s im looking at 100 million isk if i die thats one hell of a death penalty. Clone cost need to be reduced or caped to a level were its not a detriment to pvp.

TL;DR clones cost to dam much if your a vet

Would an organisation look after your clones and supply the clones for free? Paying for clones isn't really that much of an issue, it's only when you get to the higher levels that it becomes an issue for some people. Of course if you die a lot then it's even more of an issue.

Clone costs are actually too low. They encourage the meaningless lolcruiser fleets where players get to be mediocre and irrelevant, but pretend that it's OK because they tell themselves "I'm having fun". The people they kill lose nothing, they lose nothing, nothing changes in the game -- totally pointless. If you enjoy that kind of gameplay you can go play call of duty and not have to put up with clone costs at all. EVE should be about consequences, and the idea that you can go and die and suffer none is out of line.

To the OP, you have many options:
1) Stop being poor
2) Sell your character and buy one with fewer skillpoints, and have plenty of money to play with
3) Buy the highest quality clone you can afford, and lose skillpoints until you reach its limits
4) Quit the game

Option 2 is only a temporary fix, because the skillpoints of your new character will go up and you are apparently incapable of making ISK despite it being thrown at your feet at every opportunity.

Options 1, 3 and 4 are long term solutions and are preferable.

As you may of guessed by the topic im one of those old vets well passed 100 million sp ( not sure if i should laugth or cry ) any way i like to pvp how ever im not all that well off isk wise half of the problem being my clone costing more than my ship does half the time .

With the next expansion adding more free sp my clones will most likely be costing 45 million each and even more for players even older than me. i have the skills to fly the ships i want but it hardly seems worth it when one dicter bouble equels im f**ked

With full set of implants +4s im looking at 100 million isk if i die thats one hell of a death penalty. Clone cost need to be reduced or caped to a level were its not a detriment to pvp.

TL;DR clones cost to dam much if your a vet

So a player who doesn't spend his time mindlessly grinding missions in high-sec and instead chooses to provide content for other players by actively seeking to get shot should quit the game because he spends most of his time flying cruisers in null and not enough time making ISK to buy bigger pvp ships that he would actually use once every blue moon.

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Who said anything about grinding missions in highsec? Why would you only use bigger ships once in a blue moon?

Vets should know how to make ISK by now. /thread.

But it doesn't really add anything to the game, it's really just a nuisance. Couldn't the Minmatar Republic pay for my clones for my race with the taxes NPC corpse get?

To take this conversation in somewhere I personally haven't seen it go before, what about giving sov 0.0 the ability to have a discount to clone costs similar to in lowsec FW? Podding is much more likely in null anyways thanks to bubbles, and an infrastructure upgrade to reduce clone costs really makes sense in the player-run, empire-building nature of 0.0

Ok for the sake of the argument for the bitter vet, why not have discount clones at the bitter vet starbase? He spend a lot of time building up a character so he should be rewarded for his dedication to the game.

Clone cost need to be reduced or caped to a level were its not a detriment to pvp.

It's a fair point about implants, but we're not complaining about implants here. If a person chooses to fly a frigate in 0.0 with +4s in his head, that's entirely on his conscience. Paying fifty million for a new clone is absurd though.

Wearing expensive implants is a choice. A decision that carries benefits and liabilities.

Skilling up a PvP character to a point that is difficult to pay for is a choice. A decision that has benefits and liabilities.

If your clones are too expensive then just use the free alpha clone for a while, you will save billions.

I think clone costs scale pretty well. As your SP increases, it should get easier for you to make money.

By the time you hit 100 mil SP, you should have more than enough money to pod yourself several times a day for a year.

Once again, just because you're space-rich, doesn't mean other people are, even if they've been playing for a long time. A player shouldn't be punished for having lots of skill points. I'm not saying he should be rewarded either, just that he shouldn't be punished.

For the love of everything nice, why would you force a player who only wants to pvp into grinding extra cash to pay NPCs for the privilege? They make up such a tiny percentage of the population as it is already, so why are you so adamant on not stopping to drive them away entirely? Can you simply not stomach the idea of pvp in EVE?

For the love of everything nice, why would you force a player who only wants to pvp into grinding extra cash to pay NPCs for the privilege?

For a while I thought that you were an alt of someone who is metagaming this issue. Now I just think that you don't understand.

"Eve pvp will die and no one will dare to fight anymore if clones remain expensive. Subscribers will be lost and the servers will close! oh noes!!!"

I have made many mistakes while playing Eve, and lost a lot of ISK because of them. I have played very conservatively and lost a lot of ISK because of that. Those choices all have benefits and liabilities.

The game is as advertised, to come here whining about how unfair and difficult it is after playing for 100million skill points is just bizarre. What game did you think that you were playing?

I think clone costs scale pretty well. As your SP increases, it should get easier for you to make money.

By the time you hit 100 mil SP, you should have more than enough money to pod yourself several times a day for a year.

Isn't this one of the few things in EVE that actually makes money vanish, I think we need more things like that, I hope they don't make it so that one day players can produce and sell clones, otherwise we are just printing money forever from rat bounties

Kid, you have four credits in debate from the University of Phoenix Online or something? I never said any of those things, so don't make a quote and attribute it to me. It's crass.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that not everyone, even among 100m SP+ pilots, flies big expensive ships into combat? Do you genuinely not understand why having an NPC entity charge someone 45 million iSK for the privilege of having some frigate fun in 0.0 is a bad idea?

So make an alt. Super cheap clone.

No one says you have to keep training your original toon.

I don't care if you fight in a frigate or not. I hope that you don't actually.

You and all those like you have made a monumental mistake. You have skilled a combat pilot to a point that is uncomfortable to pay for. That is a weakness and a failure on your part. And now you want it to go away.

If you just want some easy money good fights then start a new char and join R-V-B or Brave Newbies, have all the fights that you want for short money.

Clone costs are actually too low. They encourage the meaningless lolcruiser fleets where players get to be mediocre and irrelevant, but pretend that it's OK because they tell themselves "I'm having fun". The people they kill lose nothing, they lose nothing, nothing changes in the game -- totally pointless. If you enjoy that kind of gameplay you can go play call of duty and not have to put up with clone costs at all. EVE should be about consequences, and the idea that you can go and die and suffer none is out of line.

To the OP, you have many options:
1) Stop being poor
2) Sell your character and buy one with fewer skillpoints, and have plenty of money to play with
3) Buy the highest quality clone you can afford, and lose skillpoints until you reach its limits
4) Quit the game

Option 2 is only a temporary fix, because the skillpoints of your new character will go up and you are apparently incapable of making ISK despite it being thrown at your feet at every opportunity.

Options 1, 3 and 4 are long term solutions and are preferable.

I have two triple-digit characters active right now, but clone costs don't affect me because I don't lose pods doing what I do. Doesn't mean I'll stop fighting for what makes sense, though.

But it's okay, continue attacking the player instead of the argument. I'm sure that will do wonders for your own.

... A player shouldn't be punished for ...

For making a choice?

The argument has already happened "kid". https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=200343&p=3

From a game balance point clone prices should go up. Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs. Those factors are far more important to the long term health of the game than entitlement issues of people playing for the win but terrified of the challenge.

People being less afraid of PVP will mean that people die more which will mean that more ships and implants are sold which will mean more market taxes which will be even more than clones!!!!!! Or something like that.

-Liang

By NPCs, no.

A player choose to skill up a single toon to 200M points. No one forces them to.

Whats the best way to win a fight vs a kiter that you can't catch Liang?

Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs.

By that logic, no one forces CCP to implement a game mechanic that logarithmically increases clone costs in relation to trained skill points.

By that logic, no one forces CCP to implement a game mechanic that logarithmically increases clone costs in relation to trained skill points.

CCP doesn't have to make clone costs rise exponentially; they choose to.

Edit: Okay look, what I'm trying to say is that you're telling is how something should be, without justifying the reasons for it being so. Yes, we choose to train skill points. But how does that have any influence on what clone costs should be?

Why should I be punished for having trained my character?
Fundamentally, what part of that makes any sense?

You do know CCP isn't a player?

Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage.

Risk vs. Reward doesn't scale well

A 200m skillpoint character is not any safer than a 20m skillpoint character and yet has 10x the risk.

Then don't use it.

If you have trained up a 200M skill point character and then want to use them in a frigate... you have made a poor choice.

Then don't use it.

If you have trained up a 200M skill point character and then want to use them in a frigate... you have made a poor choice.

Because some people have that many skill points, and even though flying the frigate at maximum ability might at best use a tenth of that, they only have one character, and shouldn't be forced to roll an alt for every single ship type.

Proof we will all eventually fly titans, amirite?

You have three toons for each account. I understand player want all of the advantages that come with a 200M skill point toon, but that is a choice.

There are consequecies to that choice.in EvE

Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage.

Can you really not make the association that a player training a character might want to use multiple things with that character?

The advantage of what? The vast majority of that SP that they're unable to use?
Furthermore you didn't answer my question.

A. Eve punishes player for making poor choices.
B. Then don't use that toon.

Okay, well if those consequences were set by a divine power, I would accept your argument. As things are, they're set by this game's developers, and you've still provided no proof of why they should continue to be so severe.

First, your never offered proof why they shouldn't... other than it cost you ISK

I suppose you're in favor of "ISK sinks" then, correct? Because we have a lot of ISK in the game, and that makes prices go up? And high clone costs will fix that?

So not only did you take that debate course, it looks like you went all the way for an economics degree too. Please tell me about all that "mudflation" while I pull my twenty-one exhumer bots out of the station and strip the local constellation of ore.

Training your character should not be a poor choice. That's ********.

Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage.

From a game balance point clone prices should go up. Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs.

Mining is not an isk faucet.

I did, and so did other people. Go and read the thread again.

DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.

There is no advantage.

Then don't use it. Train up another toon problem solved. Or choose not to. Player choice.

...It doesn't matter if you have a 40M character or a 250M character, the most you can put to use in a combat cruiser is around 35M...

Then don't use it.

Train up another toon problem solved.

I have seen biiter vets tell new players they can be effective in one day to fly a Frigate. Why don't they do it?

DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.

So you agree that it's bad design, then. Game content should not be obsoleted by simply playing the game.

The point is: you are clueless about how the game works, so pipe down a bit before trying to dismiss problems with thoughtless platitudes....

No.

This I agree with. A different argument.

Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at.

This I agree with. A different argument.

Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at.

Why isn' it? You know clone cost are going up?

It's like saying earning more money is a poor choice because you will have to pay more taxes, and the only way to get around that is either to not earn money (train skill points) or pay taxes (pvp).

How ******* ******** do you have to be to arrive at that kind of conjecture?

Risk vs reward.

I know it cost you ISK and you don't like that, but you should know that alos before you but that toon in a frigate.

I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you can't see how clone costs are detrimental to the game or the fact that you believe this.

The ship you're flying should be worth more than the cost to upgrade your clone. If it costs more to replace your clone than it does to buy and/or fit your ship, why did you train all those extra skills?

Nope. It's the actual argument..

High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages.

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players

But what happens if that actual result is bitter vets just save a couple of ISK.

So you agree with everything you were just arguing against.

Okay, I guess I'm going to have to stop flying frigates because I played this game for more than five years.

I fully realize and accept the error of my ways.

High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.

To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.

IWhy should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time?

You are not barred... it just costs you.

You are not barred... it just costs you.

GǪfor no good reason. Why should it?

High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages.

The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.

To remove clone costs would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.

High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.

To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.

There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.

I for one want to have more competition, not less, even if my char wont be as ubber as I want him to be right this instant.

What advantages are those?

Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this.

Options and wealth.

An alpha clone character could win a 1 v 1 vs an Omicron clone, but the Omicron wont worry much about the loss. We should all be scared of one another. Once the outcome is certain then the mystery is gone.

GǪfor no good reason. Why should it?

Why should it cost more to fly cheaper and weaker ships than stronger, more expensive ones? Where's that risk vs. reward thing you were talking about again?

And as I asked before, why should high clone costs negatively affect the pvpers, but not the miners and mission runners who never lose their pods? If bigger clones need to be more expensive, shouldn't all players be exposed to this sort of "risk?"

CCP should add passive income based on the amount of SP.

Ya know... or just make a flat pod cost. Possibly zero.

Perhaps you misunderstood. You using a lower skilled toon in a cheaper clone is a different Risk vs Reward than using a more experience toon in a more expediencies clone (assume the same ship and load out).

Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).

Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).

Your 500,000 skill point toon will not have the skills as your 20M skill point toon does, but the cost of dying will be higher. You risk more, but you should do better in combat (reward).

Are you saying it is not fair?

If you've got over 100 million skillpoints and can't afford the increased clone costs, then you're doing something wrong.

100m isn't that harsh of a death penalty. That's 1-2 hours for a vet who has no good source of income, and damn near inconsequential for many 100m sp players. Honestly, I've played many "carebear" fantasy MMOs with harsher death penalties...

And once again someone advocates saving money on clones by locking yourself out of a whole subset of available ships.

I am seriously starting to think these people are so stupid that they forget how to breathe while typing their responses, and only when they finally notice their blue reflections in the forums' dark background on their monitors do they finally, desperately gulp for air.

Like all other posters arguing against this, you've provided many hows, but no whys.

there is one "why" you are asking for: CONSEQUENCES

What kind, and what do they serve to accomplish?

Just throwing the word "consequences" at me is pretty much like blowing off a metaphysical question with a response of "it's in the bible."

1) (similar to new ship cost) it makes you TRY to safe your ass when in trouble instead of "f... it, i have another clone". In other games respawning makes you wait some time/until round finished. In Eve Online - it's ISK factor.
2) SP collecting. This is just another factor you HAVE to have in mind when your game is "COLLECT AS MANY SP AS I CAN". Many people say they WILL do PvP when "they have enough SP". Well, they can wait but then they WILL meet medical clone cost. At this point we have new excuse "the only thing why i don't do PvP"

i really think it's obvious

30% reduction sounds nice.

And once again someone advocates saving money on clones by locking yourself out of a whole subset of available ships.
..edited out snarky comment....

I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're trying to play devil's advocate here, but you're not very good at it. Your arguments consist of advocating something that's entirely impossible and regurgitated statements made by people who by and large have already been defeated.

When I lose my pod, I'm more worried about the billions of implants than the clone cost.

You can't seriously come and complain about 50 million ISK clone costs and then brag about how you PvP in a billion ISK implant set.

Because I can't support an important cause if it doesn't affect me, right?

It only looks that way because you are tired and probably a little buzzed. After you sleep a bit and get back into Eve the cold hard reality of your poorly built combat character and the consequences of that build will still be there.

This thread will end like all the others before it; with cries of 'thats not fair!" and "its bad for Eve!" and "I didn't want to play your stupid game anyway!"

I have said all along that you do not understand the issue. It doesn't surprise me that you personally are not affected by it.

there are some useless FC's out there who should wear the cost of some of my 150m SP clones

you know who you are

so my main is now byes byes in hs all warm and cuddly

Well.... this is actually a good point. If you have an expensive clone then you might not want to always PVP with it. Lots of fleet fights are so big that the FC doesn't even know everyone in their fleet, let alone how many skill points they have or which implants or how much money they have in their wallets.

Saving an individual's expensive clone just might not be the biggest goal of that fleet. In fact, depending on orders, winning the fight might not even be the biggest goal of that fleet.

Quite honestly, there really is no reason why you cant make a sufficient amount of ISK in game to cover these expenses. You have the skill points so use them! There are plenty of money making opportunities in game from lvl4s and 5s to incursions and even scamming ^.^ The point here is that I was a music major in college full time. Which meant I spent 8am-5pm in class, 6-9pm practicing and the rest of the night was homework...yet I still found time to play the game enough to make money, keeping in mind my toon is only 41 mil SP. If I had the SP you do hell i could make loads more.

Why must they be punished for having more SP?
That's a question none of you supporters have answered.

actions and consequences, and all that.

Quite honestly, there really is no reason why you cant make a sufficient amount of ISK in game to cover these expenses. You have the skill points so use them! There are plenty of money making opportunities in game from lvl4s and 5s to incursions and even scamming ^.^ The point here is that I was a music major in college full time. Which meant I spent 8am-5pm in class, 6-9pm practicing and the rest of the night was homework...yet I still found time to play the game enough to make money, keeping in mind my toon is only 41 mil SP. If I had the SP you do hell i could make loads more.

I was a music major in college full time.

Character development is a long term game that is part of Eve. Some people choose train everything on one character. That has great benefits in terms of versatility, logistics, and time spent moving between characters. The only drawback that style has is really clone costs.

Other people have played the game for years and used all three characters on their accounts. They had to train basic skills on all three chars, and have a much trickier logistics problem to deal with. The benefit to this type of account is that you can keep your combat characters in hot spots and leave the farmers in their mines or fields or whatever.

Both strategies are good, they each have advantages and disadvantages. I think option #1 is a bit more popular because it is simpler and the main drawback is clone cost. Which has been significantly reduced over the years by inflation. In fact I wonder if the rate of inflation was accounted for when they choose a slightly accelerating curve for those costs.

At any rate if the clone cost drawback is removed then the game has been simplified. Another option for strategy and implementation has been lost. I like the complicated long game, it is part of what makes Eve interesting.

And for people like myself who maintain separate chars and come to these threads to enjoy the tears it would be very unfair if clone costs were reduced. I might have to stop playing Eve and go to highsec and cancl my alt subs, yeah I would throw a batshit crazy hissy fit and invite all the other people who were in the same boat, we would whine and cry and complain until we got something that we want.

Or maybe not. I guess I would just keep playing.

I'm asking for a logical justification, not buzzwords and rhetoric.

Meh... clone costs are part of doing business. An uber skilled character can do a LOT and there SHOULD be a price involved for enjoying that benefit. Nobody should get front row seats for pocket change.

And frankly, if he's space poor in this game, it's not the clone costs that are causing that....

But ok.... He does have another option..... just don't upgrade it and pay in skill points instead of ISK. Eventually it will reduce the costs of his clones down to a level that he feels more comfortable paying.

I just don't think he should have it both ways ... He wants to fly an uber skilled character in PVP and then he tells us that if he does get podded then he want's it to not hurt?

Really. QQ no way.

Vets know, but how is that a valid point?

How exatcy is knowing your way around a culpable act?

well lets be rational , if you been playing for many years and reached ter100 mil sp long time ago and you still can not afford the clone upgrade costs , you must have done something wrong

well lets be rational , if you been playing for many years and reached ter100 mil sp long time ago and you still can not afford the clone upgrade costs , you must have done something wrong

The "using all three character slots" thing only delays the inevitable, bro. What are you going to tell us next? To get more accounts?

But at least you follow your own advice, eh? I want to say I'm surprised to see a CVA guy split his training time equally across all his characters, but I'd be a massive liar.

well lets be rational , if you been playing for many years and reached ter100 mil sp long time ago and you still can not afford the clone upgrade costs , you must have done something wrong

Quite honestly, there really is no reason why you cant make a sufficient amount of ISK in game to cover these expenses. You have the skill points so use them! There are plenty of money making opportunities in game from lvl4s and 5s to incursions and even scamming ^.^ The point here is that I was a music major in college full time. Which meant I spent 8am-5pm in class, 6-9pm practicing and the rest of the night was homework...yet I still found time to play the game enough to make money, keeping in mind my toon is only 41 mil SP. If I had the SP you do hell i could make loads more.

Not really.

It's not like there's a "Isk Printing Level 5" skill.

You still have to either go out and rat, or sit in a market playing the 1 cent game, or PI or what have you.

After about 10 million sp you have all the same money-making options as a player with 150 million sp, the difference being they can fly all 4 races and you can fly 1 race.

Skill up a small ship pilot to 30 million points and leave him there. He will always be there sitting in a hanger in the right ship ready to go. Its not that complicated.

The arguments to do away with clone costs all come down to "Its irritating switching chars and I don't want to retrain core and I don't like it."

I personally don't actually like grinding ISK, I'm not asking that ISK be removed as a game dynamic. Its part of the game and the "work" part of getting ISK is part of what makes combat exciting and fun. To diminish the potential for loss in any way would change Eve. Perhaps my hands wouldn't shake and I wouldn't experience the great feelings of victory or success if it is made easier.

Maintaining the pain of loss in a game is perhaps CCP's greatest achievement. I like playing the game their way. Making combat cheaper so that there is more of it would make the experience of Eve combat cheaper. No reason for that.

Seems to me that being able to fly 4 races is like having more options than someone who can only fly 1 race.

Seems to me that being able to fly 4 races is like having more options than someone who can only fly 1 race.

If you have been playing long enough to get over 100mill sp and you cant afford to pay for your clones your not playing eve right!

If you want to lose more ISK per fight then that's your own sovereign decision, but some people want to fly frigates and cruisers without stopping the training on their mains, or buying alt accounts. Sorry, but your argument falls flat here. If you want the game to feel more dangerous, put a few dozen nanoribbons inside your cargo hold before you undock.

So, basically, you want all the advantages of training only one character, without the disadvantages of said option?

How do you justify the difference between my 15M SP FW alt and my 100M+ SP main characters having literally no effective difference? How do you justify 15M SP FW alts straight up outperforming industrialists with 100M+ SP?

-Liang

I am saying it isn't balanced.

How far you want to train your main is a decision you make. Can he already fly all the ships you want him to fly? STOP TRAINING. Use another slot for another useful char, maybe some hyper-specialised one (cap-pilot, dedicated frigate pilot, etc.).

If you really lack sth nice to train for your main, why are you still training him? If you actually WANT more skills for your main ... then you are actually building one beast of a brain. All that data needs to be transmitted when you die. Pay for it then, apparently you really need those SP for some reason.

Is there a reason not using alts should be punished in any way?

I support cheaper or free clones.

1. It'll funnel that money into ships and mods helping the economy
2. More ppl will use low-grade implants as an acceptable pod risk

When ppl buy a 100m clone, that money doesn't go to any manufacturer or miner, it simply leaves the game, and also makes it so ppl have to do things they don't feel like doing in order to pvp.

1. The most complaints about clones come from people who pvp in 0.0 and wormholes where you can't save your pod because of bubbles. This isn't player choice; it's circumstance. The alternative here is to pvp less, something that's not good for EVE.

2. ????? You typed some gibberish here that I don't understand at all, but I'll try to address it anyway...somehow.

Thanks for collecting LOTS OF SP for so long now heres a penalty which goes against all time investment in game.

...CCP should be out of the clone making business. Let players make clones...

ISK sinks are part of MMO's, unfortunately.

To me the issue about podding is more about finding some kind of balance between risk and reward. While it's true that there is an effect of diminishing returns with continuing to train a highly skilled character, there can also be no doubt at all that a highly skilled character with better skills in gunnery, tanking, maneuverability etc. and presumably being piloted by a more experienced player, has a risk profile that diminishes over time.

In other words, they win more often, which they should.

1. CCP might want the ISK sink.

2. Player made clones might not address the issue of clone cost being detrimental to PvP.

I like the idea though.

Plenty of other ways to sink ISK. One way to Sink is not have so much coming in, in the first place. But that's another debate.

I think it is detrimental to overall PvP.

So, fly more expensive ships, so the balance is improved!

In a 1v1 fight, yeah you're correct. The high SP player should win due to experience and higher skills. However, for fleets this isn't true at all and there's always the case of being caught by a random roaming gang and being plain unlucky.

Well... noobish mistakes aside I hear what you're saying.

The issue isn't staying clear when we start mixing contexts. In one context, taking away podding costs wouldn't be fair to younger players, in another context younger players benefit too much from lower podding costs.

Maybe insurance payouts for ship losses could be adjusted by ratio of the character's skillpoints to the mean. Older characters would get less reimbursed and new characters more for the same ship.

That might work to make keep the playing field level as you lose more ships while skill points are low and you're still learning the mechanics.

dunno