I've always been curious as to why you could jump right next to a station. It seems like it would have been more logical to have an exclusion zone (like with smart bombs, but presumably larger). Make it large enough and you could actually catch ships trying to get a station. Although I doubt it would change much, since looking at jump ranges it isn't like most Alliances have to worry about a lot of unsecured midpoints to their own territory if you have JDC V.

I imagine the situation would change significantly if modules and ammo were larger than the minerals required to build them. Imagine if 425mm rail guns were 1500m3 instead of 50m3?

Would it still be cheaper to jump 40 freighter loads of titanium to null rather than mining it locally?

When i first started playing EvE i Wanted to be a pirate praying on the Haulers moving the Supply's from high sec to low and null, and the riches from null/low to high-sec. In the start it was great fun fighting the fleets guarding these haulers for the hopes of getting the sweet loot that was inside of them. We Even had deals going to actively hunt some corps supply lines for a while.

But that Play stile is long dead, and in the past years of eve.

Now i spend my time patrolling WHs for even a small reminder of the days of old.

Though, I am still living in the hope that one day all low sec systems will have cynosural blockers.

There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.

Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.

That sounds awesome tbh. That's exactly what I imagined what our duties as alliance members would be when our corp first joined an alliance. Instead we got Structure bashing and cta's when yet another group of roamers got to close to us. We left a few months later.

Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.

Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.

I've always been curious as to why you could jump right next to a station. It seems like it would have been more logical to have an exclusion zone (like with smart bombs, but presumably larger). Make it large enough and you could actually catch ships trying to get a station. Although I doubt it would change much, since looking at jump ranges it isn't like most Alliances have to worry about a lot of unsecured midpoints to their own territory if you have JDC V.

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.

Well if you want to punish us by nerfing our outposts to only having the 68050 build slots that hi-sec enjoys, make them invulnerable like hi-sec, make the good refineries also have plenty of slots like hi-sec, have unlimited office slots like hisec, make the supply of high-bulk low-end minerals in 0.0 sufficient to build from like hi-sec, make 0.0 ore anoms worth as much as hi-sec minerals, then I guess we'll be as hardworking as the hi-sec industrialist community too.

At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. I can assure you that planning a freighter convoy in the days before POS jumpgates and JF's was the equivalent of planning to cart several tons of fresh meat in the open thru a stretch of several thousand kilometeres.

and every milimeter of that path has one hundred hungry lions waiting for you.


so yeah, it was a feat back in the day. you needed careful planing, your whole alliance would've been in constant CTA for maybe 2-3 days, you would need forward fleets, rear fleets, guarding fleets, scouts for each fleet (yeah you would keep scouts 5-10-15 jumps away, both ways and even sideways), coordinate the massive intel flow generated by these scouts and worry about spies, saboteurs, login traps, setup alternative routes, and prepare to log out pretty much all freighters in an instant's notice and keep them logged out, maybe for even more than a week to make them arrive safely.


tedious, and stressfull. I can see why JF's were a breath of fresh air on this, but then again, maybe they made it too easy.

Uhm, freighter convoys... yummy! Just yesterday passed a huge freighter convoy in hi sec somewhere around Rens, there was about more than 20 Charon's on each side of the gate. I would love to see something like this in low and null sec!

http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600

There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there.

Yeah because titans are supply ships. Pretty sure he's talking about cargo ships, the ones that you could actually hunt in null. The ones that would occasionally be full of mega and zyd. He's absolutely right too, having had the pleasure of hunting those ships way back then, there was some risk to null seccers. Now there's none.

No jump--->less items from high sec to null sec--->more manufacturing in null sec to supply---> 0.0 manufacturing a viable option

Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....

So more player iteraction, more 0.0/low sec pvp, more alliance importance, more importance to strategic system.

Yep, it's obvious why they remove that feature

Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.

There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.

You know that there's no Rhea class titans, right?

Look at that page again.

I know you nullseccers regard suicide ganking as the pinnacle of EVE PVP, but posting a page where the discussed JFs are mostly killed by ganks in Forge doesn't really prove your point.

When i finished reading the OP i was going to mention this too :P convoys were awesome fun - going through 30 odd 0.0 jumps at freighter speed could be tedious but fleet comms always made up for it and the constant tension of being hit kept it exciting - listening to all the scout reports and co-coordinating the escorts to move into blocking positions for possible threats etc

I guess itl be impossible to remove jump freighters from the game :( tho i reckon they could stop titans/pos bridges from being able to bridge freighters - but without removing jump freighters itd be kinda pointless.

@Malcanis

For a moment there i thought you were just trolling, but seems you are not.

What the reward would be (you asked me) as an industrialist in 0.0? As always, ISK...

Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....

Now, for the gank in highsec....really? If thats "working mechanics" for you, doing highsec ganks on JFs to stop alliance logistics, then we probably have nothing else to discuss here. Thats just way to different world views on how fun and working EvE PvP should look like to create more PvP in 0.0.

With or without jump freighters we would be importing just about everything because we simply cannot make it out in null.

Isn't it amusing how this inescapable fact always just gets handwaved away?

No seriously though, Hi-sec has approximately 30 times as many build slots as sov null. 0.0 absolutely relies on importing goods from hi-sec because there simply isn't the industrial capacity to produce the ships and modules required.

And that's on top of the gigantic non-ISK subsidies that hi sec manufacturing gets, meaning that even if 0.0 did have the slots, which it doesn't, then it will still be far cheaper and more efficient to build in hi-sec than in 0.0

At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.

@Malcanis

read the whole post, answer is in there.

@baltec
good, do that if you like freighter logistics, but THEN you will have to deal with freigher runs. More PvP opportunity right there.

The problem NOW is that you get your cake and can eat it too. It doesnt really matter what you do, there is no drawback anymore.



sure, because having a drawback (actually risking your stuff during transport) is the same as having none...at least try connecting the dots here?

considering the ease of how nullsec is offloading stuff to empire and empire being the least safe bit of the travel, it is a valid mechanic.

@Malcanis

read the whole post, answer is in there.

You know that there's no Rhea class titans, right?

Look at that page again.

What "drawbacks" do hi-sec industrialists face?

[quote=Malcanis]

What "drawbacks" do hi-sec industrialists face?

I didn't see anything about how making stuff in 0.0 makes more ISK than making it in hi-sec. Maybe your reasoning is a little too subtle for me. Could you make it explicit to me how you'd make more ISK manufacturing in 0.0 than you would in hi-sec?

All i'm saying is the "next big thing" to revisit is LOGISTICS...and maybe by some ppl who actually have seen both worlds, both extremes.

I didn't see anything about how making stuff in 0.0 makes more ISK than making it in hi-sec. Maybe your reasoning is a little too subtle for me. Could you make it explicit to me how you'd make more ISK manufacturing in 0.0 than you would in hi-sec?

We'll start with you sharing a 50-slot Amarr outpost with everyone else in the alliance who wants to make stuff, and take it from there. BTW your nearest minmatar outpost is 3 jumps away.

OK: go!

@Jenn
Thats the "the sky would fall" argument. EvE did work before, you know? There was a time when it was harder to do this stuff.

Now, i don't disagree on the difficulty to change anything, we just see a different possible OUTCOME. I look back and see what we have lost (yes, even the tedium).

OF COURSE a major rewrite would be necessary, we are starting from a different position today then back in 2006+. CBs and JFs ruined alot, and it would take a steady carefull approach to change it BACK.

I argue that it is a valuable path to take. I just see too many ppl stating it would be "too hard" to do and its better how it is now. I call bullshit on that.

Thats the "the sky would fall" argument. EvE did work before, you know? There was a time when it was harder to do this stuff.

Now, we don't even differn in argument, we just see a different possible OUTCOME.

OF COURSE a major rewrite would be necessary, we are starting from a different position today then back in 2006+. CBs and JFs ruined alot, and it would take a steady carefull approach to change it BACK.

I argue that it is a valuable path to take, to change it back. I just see too many ppl stating it would be "too hard" to do and its better how it is now. I call bullshit on that.

The actual solution is to correct the imbalance, not to "shoot the messenger" of logistics. When it's more profitable - and possible - to make ships, modules, etc, in 0.0, then that's where they'll be made.

The amusing thing that most of the advocates of "nerf null-sec logistics" fail to realise (or do but don't care) is that if you nerf JFs for example, you are nerfing small corps and individuals in null.

Large corps can adapt rapidly, small corps can't.

At the moment small corps can either jump their own stuff in or get Black Frog to do it for them.

That gives them a foothold in npc null without having half the corp assets destroyed at the regional gate.

Null is boring enough, the very last ******* thing it needs is more logistics tedium and blues.

YMMV of course.

The amusing thing that most of the advocates of "nerf null-sec logistics" fail to realise (or do but don't care) is that if you nerf JFs for example, you are nerfing small corps and individuals in null.
L

Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

That's exactly it. A 10,000 character coalition wouldn't sneeze at any change, that 10 man corp of real life buddies living in Curse and carrier jumping ships in to play with and killing stuff would do more than sneeze lol.

[
Thats the other "the sky is falling" argument. No, small corps don't need JFs, thank you very much. When i can support 50ppl with 1 carrier and 1 rorqual something is wrong in the equation (i have done it, have you?).

Small corps don't need to do large freighter runs, they just don't. They use other ships, smaller ships, faster ships, cloaky stuff. There are ways to do it right now, it just got too easy so now everyone seems to think to be entitled to do it "the easy way...because".

And if they don't want to, they buy from larger entities where they live. And no, small corps will NEVER challange the large alliance, with or without a JF's.

They didn't back in 2003/4/5, and they don't today. We have tried both ways, thats not whats stopping small corps from taking over. Get over it.

What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec?

That's exactly it. A 10,000 character coalition wouldn't sneeze at any change, that 10 man corp of real life buddies living in Curse and carrier jumping ships in to play with and killing stuff would do more than sneeze lol.

Why are outposts so gimped? Why do they not have 100 manufacture slots? Why must refining, research, manufacture be spread out all over the place?

Why not?

How else would one kill a cargo ship with no module slots than with a "gank"? I'm interested to hear your 'non-gank' methodology of doing so. Convo the pilot, challenge him to rock-paper-scissors and the loser honourably self destructs? Please do enlighten us "nullseccers".


Who do you think is operating those JFs? "Even hi-seccers" aren't sufficiently uninformed of game mechancis to use a JF to move materials from one hi-sec system to another. Not after the first cyno fails, anyway. So what's your objection? Aren't JFs killed in the Forge dead enough for you?

You're living way way WAY back in the past. Best you get to grips with the present rather than discussing the future don't you think?

I wonder how many of the issues with nullsec industry will be fixed by the hopefully inevitable POS fix?

No, small corps don't need JFs, thank you very much.

If you really think that the current situation where the best way to intercept supply routes is suicide ganking is ideal, there's really no point discussing this with you.

He doesn't. He's just saying that the only way to make supply interception a more common occurrence is to break the lock highsec has on industry. Ether that, or make it far easier to kill people in highsecGǪ

"Or"?

Ok, fine. "and". I'm talking about a minimalist approach. More than the absolute minimum would obviously yield better results.

If you really think that the current situation where the best way to intercept supply routes is suicide ganking is ideal, there's really no point discussing this with you.

SLOPS is a corp of 4. We need a JF, because nothing else can supply us in the quantity we need.

@baltec
good, do that if you like freighter logistics, but THEN you will have to deal with freigher runs. More PvP opportunity right there.

The problem NOW is that you get your cake and can eat it too. It doesnt really matter what you do, there is no drawback anymore.

What's so dreadful about suicide ganking?

Let me just point out that freighter convoys are :effort: for the likes of us and down right impossible for small alliances located in space behind ours. How exactly does one supply Venal with us in the way?

Ever thought about that maybe, just maybe, its not a good game mechanic that you can do what you do with "only 4 ppl"?

Now, i'm taking a risk here (as i don't have insight in what you do with these 4 ppl, but i'm guessing its not bringing in pvp-cruisers?)

No seriously though, Hi-sec has approximately 30 times as many build slots as sov null. 0.0 absolutely relies on importing goods from hi-sec because there simply isn't the industrial capacity to produce the ships and modules required.

And that's on top of the gigantic non-ISK subsidies that hi sec manufacturing gets, meaning that even if 0.0 did have the slots, which it doesn't, then it will still be far cheaper and more efficient to build in hi-sec than in 0.0

At the moment manufacturers are "FORCED" into hi-sec. Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.

It worked before, it would work now. PPL adapt.

You have to go to hisec to participate in it

The fact that majority of JF kills happen in hisec only proves that JFs are nearly invulnerable in low and null. Of course the real solution is to improve nullsec industry, but making dishonest claims that current supply routes aren't too safe doesn't advance the discussion.

Judging by this, Malcanis supports the idea of removal of easy jump freight provided that outposts are balanced to having the same or greater capacity as highsec.

That actually sounds like a fair balance - remove jump bridges, bridging and jump freighters, much like in highsec, and give them the industrial output of highsec. Plus you get the rarer ores and the T2 moon materials - I'm not seeing a big problem.

We used to supply ourselves with carriers before. Your idea will cripple all small alliances.

it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck.

Let me use a clichee: "the one who dosn't know the past is bound to repeat....." fill in the rest for yourself..

So you are supplieing a region/alliance/market/corp with only 4 ppl and minimal risk right?

But in no way shape or form do i think this is GOOD for 0.0 logistics. What YOU can do every 0.0 big alliance can do, creating big problems and making 0.0 industry worthless.

the solution is in my posting. you may not like it, but it worked BEFORE.

but it worked BEFORE.

While an increase in conflict drivers is good, you have to look at the entire picture. Null sec has some issues already which need to be addressed. Too many of the conflict drivers mentioned would do more damage than than help.

As far as gameplay experiences goes, I don't really see much of a downside. I can understand wanting to keep cynos though, since it makes things everything so darn easy and safe -

They are in the process of being addressed by your friendly CSM representatives. We have a really good CSM this year; I'm sure they will encourage changes that will make everyone happy and hopefully make the game as a whole a healthier, more interesting place.

@Tippia



But in no way shape or form do i think this is GOOD for 0.0 logistics. What YOU can do every 0.0 big alliance can do, creating big problems and making 0.0 industry worthless.

@baltec1

you talked about living behind enemy lines and not beeing able to without JFs (or carriers before). Now, i told you that smaller entities lived near highsec BECAUSE of that problem. See the solution right there?

If you really think you live behind enemy lines because you have a JF or 2, think again. The enemy lets you live there, he can stomp you any day.

I lived in venal before JF came about for years. Deep in the middle of NC space. They tried to get rid of us many times and we fought them off. They sure as hell didn't want us living there.

You seem to not know the history of 0.0.

Really beeing patient here, but what makes you think that this discussion revolves around your personal EGO of living in Venal? I don't really care. I don't even care if you think i know or don't anything about EvE, if i would have wanted to i would have posted with my MAIN no?

Its not about EGOs....try looking past that and coming back to interesting disussions.

The same will happen with 0.0 industry/logistics, agreeing that its too easy right now is a start.

as if getting rid of one thing in a complex interconnected system is the answer to everything and no bad consequences will ensue lol.

GǪand the question is why anyone should (or would) agree with it when it's not really a problem to begin with, and that the issue at play here is one of industrial imbalance.

Solve that problem and the supposed ease of JF logistics becomes irrelevant.

@Malcanis

Living in your dreamworld yes? Stop trolling on important subjects maybe and i will take you seriously.

It has become MORE then clear in this thread that its a COMBINATION of factors influencing industry in 0.0. Your attempts to make your points (half of them trolled) look more valid is not really working.

Of course 0.0 stations have to be upped, and they are right now (not enough, but its a start). Logistics will be something to be reivsed too, as easy as that.

But hey, go on living in your black/white world, good luck with that. Poor CSM though, if you argue like you do here during CSM sessions....but maybe in person you wouldnt troll that much hm?

What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec?

@baltec1

really dude calm down now, always remember: "you don't know who you are talking to on a forum...". Don't throw around accusations.

YOU are CSM member.
YOU say us: why YOU ask CCP to buff industry in 0.0 if there is no reward of doing industry there.

Yeah because titans are supply ships.

Thats where i think you are too focused on one aspect or got too late into this discussion (= read tread)

Thats where this discussion comes from

You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.

as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).

ban capitals from low-sec totally?

maybe this is good idea....

[quote=Gwenywell Shumuku]

GǪand any solution to the actual problem with GǣsolveGǥ the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.

I think JFs are a solution for a percieved problem back when Titans got used for bridging convoys. Only a few big blocks had Titans back then, so the necessity arose to make it easier for everyone else as there was a REAL fear that one entity could dominate through "capital ship superiority".

Now, we know how that turned out, everything "jump" is just common and no problem anymore. Maybe its time to revisit the solution to a problem that no longer exists? (see tread title).

The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.

In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.

GǪand any solution to the actual problem with GǣsolveGǥ the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable.

Because some genius decided it would be cool to have cyno-bridges and cyno-freighters, listening to the 0.0 "lazy" crowd.

There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois.

Yes, sometimes it was tedious, but heck what a thrill when hostiles tried to intercept you. I was lucky to be part of 2 campaigns where we had to do stuff like this, i will always remember.

Then ppl started to use Titans to bridge freighters (lol), the less rich used carriers (at least still having to cross high/lowsec) and later use cyno-bridge networks (the end of 0.0 logistics) and then jump-freighters (beating the already dead horse again eliminating even the highsec/lowsec jump).

Hm, ok, maybe i don't see it (happens some times), but how would that bring anything to the pvp-table again? Remember please that the topic of "more pvp opportunities" is one that really is important for 0.0 dwellers. Comming back to the topic of the tread, we lost that component with everything "jump" (JFs beeing the latest and most powerfull addition) and went to "get them in highsec".

You just answered that yourself.
The buff is needed because there are no rewards for 0.0 industry.

Then maybe, if the combined effect of making 0.0 industry viable and/or either adding costs or effort to HS industry, 0.0 industry becomes a thing.

Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?

Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?

Hm, ok, maybe i don't see it (happens some times), but how would that bring anything to the pvp-table again?

Comming back to the topic, we lost that component with everything "jump"

Nerfing JF could create a problem with the current state of things, but I fail to see how there is already a problem to begin with. When was it decided that null sec should be self-sustaining, completely or mostly independent from empire?

Last year, I believe. CCP Soundwave said that wanted null to be "99%" self sufficient.

When was it decided that null should be utterly dependent?

No jump--->less items from high sec to null sec--->more manufacturing in null sec to supply---> 0.0 manufacturing a viable option

- 0.0 industry needs a buff
- logistics needs a nerf

And that's strange that out CSM representatives only speak about 1st half of the problem. And completely ignore 2nd half.

I can absolutely promise that the changes won't make everyone happy.

Yes. How would having local resource gathering, transports through gates and to POSes, and short-distance moves to local markets in null possible bring anything ot the PvP table?

GǪapart from the fact that no, you really didn't. It just moved to a different part of space.

It never was. The problem is that with the current design, large portions of game content are rendered useless due to the massive imbalance in terms of costs, ease of logistics, safety, availability of resources, availability of services and general ease of use that highsec offers.

The game is inherently designed so that no area can be even mostly independent, but it is also designed so that only a very small portion of space can take advantage of local resources in any meaningful way. This in spite of the game content geared towards providing that kind of local ownership. If the availability and usefulness of local resources goes up, then so does the usage of that content and so does the traffic to, from, and near those resources.

That means more stuff to shoot.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600

There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there.

there will be no rewards for industry as long as you can move goods cheap and safe from high-sec. People mentioned it many times.

You can have millions of refining/manufacturing slots - but your outpost can be taken from you
You can take all risks and still manufacture and sell stuff - but other person will just bring JF from high-sec and outbid you on market.

this.
- 0.0 industry needs a buff
- logistics needs a nerf

And that's strange that out CSM representatives only speak about 1st half of the problem. And completely ignore 2nd half.

to the problem that 4 ppl with JFs can take care of 1000ppl, which, its exactly my point

Like anything that is currently busted in nullsec it needs accompanying changes, or it just makes it even less desirable to be there doing stuff in nullsec; it's the same as the need to implement more local and regional conflict drivers before the otherwise necessary nerf to current power projection.

Ok so I understand that high sec industry is easier than null sec. I suppose the restrictions on outposts and null sec industry in general are too harsh. But then that asks the question, why were they put there in the first place? Some kind of balance I suppose.

I think it's a pretty bold statement to say that improved null sec industry will bring more players to null sec, though.

That's not really a statement anyone makes, though. The statement is that improved nullsec industry and nerfed highsec industry (and yes, it must be that one-two-punch) will make nullsec players go to null GÇö specifically, it will make the null industrialists go back home rather than sit around in highsec and ruin the lives of the highsec industrialists.

That's not really a statement anyone makes, though. The statement is that improved nullsec industry and nerfed highsec industry (and yes, it must be that one-two-punch) will make nullsec players go to null GÇö specifically, it will make the null industrialists go back home rather than sit around in highsec and ruin the lives of the highsec industrialists.

But how do you solve the moon mat problem? Good luck with that one.

Even with fixes to station slots and increased low end minerals, null industry is still broken because do the lack of T2 material access. T1 won't be a problem and generally isn't outside of low end mineral access (the patch will be awesome for this issue). T3 can be done if needed, but the complexity of the moon mining system is far too complicated to supply even the simplest T2 items. Not to mention datacores. PI helped a bunch but until they fix T2 material access, this whole idea of "cutting null logistics will increase null profit because it'll be made locally" argument just shows your ignorance of null industry.

Allow invention in Caldari research stations without requiring datacores and we are getting somewhere. But how do you solve the moon mat problem? Good luck with that one.

And how is this extra ISK obtained? By playing Somerblink during the additional hauling overhead because refineries are always in a different system than factory stations? By the shortage of low end materials? The small market population?

Why is it always about making the running of SPACE EMPIRES EASIER at the expense of interesting game play options?

You don't like doing it someone else will, you want fights but wish to risk nothing to get them, you want supply's but to not wish to do the effort to get them.

With or without jump freighters we would be importing just about everything because we simply cannot make it out in null.

Isn't it amusing how this inescapable fact always just gets handwaved away?

Almost as funny as people who get to use invincible 250-slot stations they can't get locked out of, for free, calling 0.0ers "lazy"...

What "drawbacks" do hi-sec industrialists face?

I would rather attack convoys, in low sec and null and get fun fights out of it.

GÇ£put in the effortGÇ¥ and GÇ£be deliberately stupid and inefficientGÇ¥.

what effort?

I've just spent 3 pages discussing why i think the current situation is far from ideal. Dishonest claims that JFs are "invulnerable" don't advance the discussion at all though.

This is another utterly moot discussion. The reason we took the CSM for null and will keep it in perpetuity is so that chucklefuk outsider-looking-in ideas like this don't get implemented. It will never happen.

There not "invulnerable" but it takes MASSIVE errors for you to die.


Go and ask your alliances Logistic wing how often they really die, and if they tell you its to anything other than the random ganking of there NPC corp JF alt, fire them as there completely incompetent and should not hold that office.


My friends 7 year old plays eve for 8 months now and safely supply's his corps 37 members with supply's in NPC null sec. You know how many times he has died doing it in the last 4 months scene he started? NONE.

A 7 year old can out smart every pirate and gate camp alliance member and leader in eve, how? Checking local, and not going afk in less docked, and NPC corp. tell me if a 7 year old can do it how often do you think the people that do it every day and know every trick in the book and every way it can be safely done for there alliances die?



SO, is it to easy? YES.

And you would need to defend these items in transport, and people would wish to attack them.

And interesting game play in born.

And you would need to defend these items in transport, and people would wish to attack them.

And interesting game play in born.

PL dump their supers onto your convoy. Now what?

Try listening to people WHO LIVED IN THE TIMES YOU SPEAK OF AND KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

Its nothing at all to do with ego, I am simply saying what used to happen and why your idea would hurt this game.

More useful nullsec industry slots benefits highsec players by giving them more free highsec industry slots.

be a man, cyno in some heavy interdictors and have at them.

Also all this would do is force fleet sizes to get smaller, reducing the scale of fights. Pubbies might consider this a good thing because THE BLOB is the excuse du jour for not leaving the safety, comfort and convenience of hisec but ultimately interest dwindles and people stop playing.

You said you fully lived in the middle of someones space with out JF, and a good industry system and constantly got fights?

Compared to now?

You first. Let us know how that works out for you, though.

I too, hunger for node death and blueballs.

You first. Let us know how that works out for you, though.

Nah. It's just that the former makes the latter a moot point.

oh hohoho, we think we're funny, do we, tippia?

It is so tiresome to see people arguing to not make x,y,z changes because it will hurt the small corps living out in null space. There is no small corps in null. Only coalitions. If you can point out a non-gimmick corp living in null that relys only on itself for logistics, you are lying.

The arguments to not make changes because it will hurt the little guy and only help the big guy is ridiculous and full of holes.

Define "relies only on itself". While we're at it, define "small."

Define "relies only on itself". While we're at it, define "small."

I'd venture that the vast majority of logistics is done at a corporation level, so bringing in blue-donut crying is a non sequitur.

Corporations doing their own logistics has what to do with them being independent from an alliance or coalition?

The non sequitur is all yours.

Doing their own logistics makes them independent when discussing logistics. Try following an actual line of discussion instead of jumping on-board meaningless and irrelevant bluedonut crying, and then people won't have to constantly be explaining the context to you.

I'd venture that the vast majority of logistics is done at a corporation level, so bringing in blue-donut crying is a non sequitur.

Im still reading page 6 but i want to give my experience.

I used to roam Fade/Pureblind/Dek in 2006. Group of 4-8 people, had engages on every system with station with similar groups of people. Why?, because they couldnt afford to be paralized by our gang roaming, they where separated from the rest of the aliance (no blob), and needed to pass through our gang.

So in your world some corp in the alliance who has their convoy intercepted would be on their own? Cool story.

Fact is the more people who are in your corp, alliance, blue, whatever - the easier and faster you can do things like projection of power and, more so on topic, logistics. That is the ice cold reality of it. No spin.

No, but it would mean that corps would get bigger and fewer, while they would blend even deeper together in even larger organizations (alliances and coalitions).

Crying about a blue doughnut.

[quote=Sukur]Im still reading page 6 but i want to give my experience.

What's to stop them from just flying cloaky/nullified T3s past you now.

Ok, so you have no actual point and are just trying, unsuccessfully, to "win something" on an internet spaceships forum. Got it.

No rose colored glass here but game is worse now.

There where stupid things like T2 bpo, **** balance (nanophoons where worst WTF i seen in any game). But null sec delivered sense of living on a deep far away place and had fun every day. Now you are closer to Jita than many constelations in lowsec, and cant get a fight because power proyection is so good that you always fight with the whole enemy.

With a nerfbat.

No rose colored glass here but game is worse now.

There where stupid things like T2 bpo, **** balance (nanophoons where worst WTF i seen in any game). But null sec delivered sense of living on a deep far away place and had fun every day. Now you are closer to Jita than many constelations in lowsec, and cant get a fight because power proyection is so good that you always fight with the whole enemy.

be a man, cyno in some heavy interdictors and have at them.

Speaking from experience - a single max-skilled Nyx will 2-volley a typical freighter or JF.

Fighter Bombers volley every 15 seconds.

Adding in some travel time for the Fibos, this means that inside of probably 45-50 seconds, from start to finish, the raison d'+¬tre of your convoy fleet is dead.

Unless you have no qualms with tossing loaded freighters or JFs out as bait, there are better ways to get fights.

Relies only on itself is pretty self explanatory. Small of course depends on the individuals point of view.

"Don't nerf the titan jump bridges because it will nerf the slot 9 crew hull modifier!"

See.

this scenario shine's light on the effect all jump capable ships have had on eve.

waking up at 2am to shoot a tower seemed much better than waking up at 00.00,to do about 4 hours of pathfinding, travel upwards with the convoy, arrive at destination at about 6-8am, getting 2-3 hours of sleep, do about 4 hours of scouting upwards and downwards the route, travel another 2-4 hours slower than snail's pace, and that's considering you don't get any hostiles in the way.


it wasn't pretty, it was too hard. JF's came and made it too easy.

Unless you have no qualms with tossing loaded freighters or JFs out as bait, there are better ways to get fights.

CCPs motivation was to bring more ppl to 0.0. Making it easy to get stuff there should accomplish that, they thought. Well, all they got was 0.0 folk saying "oh, look, we don't need that many ppl now, lets do all the logistics with fewer ppl = more money for us".

Rest assured that your noble CSM representatives are currently working with CCP on how to make 0.0 manufacturing a viable option.